No Morality in Continuing an Immoral War

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level. I admire her pacifism

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level.

Starhawk's response to the war makes sense on a profound level.

From this thread as well as the previous one, all posts from "Frank" have dissapeared. Is this a good thing?

Stop being a stooge for Israel and the Neocons.

"you are getting as bad as the islamics when it comes to word games."

The 'word games' at issue are the ones which you use to tell yourself these horrible things about other people, regardless of the merits of the assertion, Frank.

The *word games* at issue, are the ones you use to justify some sense that you're somehow 'defending' something by attacking things you don't understand, in many cases, in order to *prevent* yourself from understanding that there are other human beings in the world that you can't control or define through some sense of 'entitlement' and 'threat.'

The 'word games' are *all about your head.*

You'll notice I never said she wasn't at WTO protests.
I asked you where you got your assertion that "spirit gods" told her there's a "secret world government", since it's an implied insult to her mental state and that of anyone who shares her beliefs. My path is different to hers, and I'm not even really a fan, but she's representing the quite huge umbrella of 'paganism' on here so I feel qualified to step in.

If you made that part up based on what YOU think of her, then it's not only more baseless rubbish from you, but actually offensive. At which point I asked if there were even any mods on here to stop things like a sustained campaign of completely unfounded insults.

Oh, and if you think there's anything at all in common between Starhawk's path, any of the pagans on here, and a passage from a monotheist scripture featuring woman-killing and a strict god rewarding his unquestioning male follower for dogmatic violence against women, you haven't read a single thing Starhawk ever wrote.

I see a day off changed little. Sorry for the ranting, the other day. Chronic pain and dealing with religious trolls for days just don't mix. :)

It did lead me to reflect that the conceptual world of these people would seem to allow for no human responsibility for action: only blaming others for *reactions* which may be rationalized as 'just,' but still divorced from consciousness of the effects or functionality of a given action.

That whole thing about 'enemies.'

It strikes me that this troll is simply *obsessed* with 'enemies,' yet has nothing to offer but blindly *striking* at what he perceives as 'enemies.'

Still expecting a 'magic trick' to make the effects of the actions he aligns himself with *go away,* ... That's the real 'Magical Thinking' in the pathological sense.

(Apologies for the double post.)

Hi Moderators:

>>"moondoggiestar freak is a looney too. she is one of those nut cases that chases the wto around the world - getting arrested - and protesting the secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist."

Dear Mods,
Are you even on here at all?
Where do you draw the line at slanderous trolling?
Just how 'irrelevant/full of personal attacks/repeatedly disruptive/untrue/not adding anything to the discussion/offensive' do posts have to be before you clean them up?

I know I said that Chuck Colson was 'everything that is wrong with society' (and if I remember right probably said a lot more besides), but it was directly relating to his statement that we should shun gays as evil because the Bible says so. And hey, I'd insult him again, if I thought he'd allow himself any response not found somewhere in the King James. But this guy is going a little beyond that and it's spoiling the threads.

Please have some sort of quality control, thanks.

Steve.

Frank: Got a reference for where Starhawk claimed there's a "secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist"? Or are you just trolling?

Hi Moderators:

>>"moondoggiestar freak is a looney too. she is one of those nut cases that chases the wto around the world - getting arrested - and protesting the secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist."

Dear Mods,
Are you even on here at all?
Where do you draw the line at slanderous trolling?
Just how 'irrelevant/full of personal attacks/repeatedly disruptive/untrue/not adding anything to the discussion/offensive' do posts have to be before you clean them up?

I know I said that Chuck Colson was 'everything that is wrong with society' (and if I remember right probably said a lot more besides), but it was directly relating to his statement that we should shun gays as evil because the Bible says so. And hey, I'd insult him again, if I thought he'd allow himself any response not found somewhere in the King James. But this guy is going a little beyond that and it's spoiling the threads.

Please have some sort of quality control, thanks.

Steve.

Frank: Got a reference for where Starhawk claimed there's a "secret world government that the spirit gods are telling her exist"? Or are you just trolling?

Terra: **We also need to add to the list that the President must have reading comprehension...like if he reads the Constitution and the oath of office he understands what he reads...even big words.**

Add to that the corollary requirement that s/he must be able to construct gramatically correct sentences in English, and correctly pronounce important words such as "nuclear."

We need an intelligent leader, not moron joke fodder.

Antaeus, I agree with that, we can not allow others to think we can not answer the trolls. And anyway I have a hard time allowing anyone to have the last word...lol.

Lepi..I can not promise anything..life has been a little busy lately, hubby has a new job. But I will try. I again invite you to my place...email me.

Poetry, With the news out about Cheney I think we need to have more definition on what the VP's limitations are. Cheney seems to be the puppet master...

We also need to add to the list that the President must have reading comprehension...like if he reads the Constitution and the oath of office he understands what he reads...even big words.

Frank...take your meds...that's a good boy.

terra

Take the Pledge

All Presidential Candidates should make pledges like those below. If they refuse, then you should refuse to vote for them.

1. No More Oil Wars.

2. Work for independence from foreign oil on day one.

3. No more wars for corporate profit.

4. No more secret deals for $4 per gallon gas.

5. No more Chicken Hawks promoting wars of choice when they themselves avoided combat.

6. Make government green--if you can't make what you have the most control over green, I don't care about your plans to make the country green.

7. No more torture.

8. No more lying about torture.

9. No more re-defining torture.

10. No more drunken hunting.

11. No more secret deals with big corporations to divide up the spoils before the war even starts.

Okay, I'll agree to ignore the troll for now. But the newsgroups (alt.pagan, alt.wiccan, alt.witchcraft,etc.) were fairly ruined by trolls--people tried ignoring them and they just kept posting more and more, until to read the actual conversations you had to wade thru twice as much troll writings. Maybe if we could address the troll the first three or four times it posts on a thread, so the public doesn't think we can't answer its questions, but then ignore it after that and continue with discussions of more serious matters. That way we get its' major objections/insults out of the way without getting into arguments over what it meant by what it said.

As for energy sustainablility, I fear Lepidopteryx is right--congress just tried to pass higher fuel economy standards which couldn't get past the filibuster in the Senate. This next election, both Presidential and Congressional, will be critical for the possibility of reversing environmental dammage. To bad Al Gore refuses to run...

**So what if we got out of Iraq...and put that money and effort into energy security?**

I'm afraid that won't happen until we get the oil and Halliburton men out of the White House.

**As a resident of Southern Louisiana, we have sun. Yet there is no tax cut for getting solar panels.**

Worse than that, there are areas where it's forbidden. I have a friend who lives in New Orleans, who wanted to fit er house with solar panels. The city denied her a building permit to remodel her house because it's in the historic district and having solar panels on her roof would disrupt the neighborhod aesthetics.

So Terra, you're still coming to my anniversary party, right?

da da lalala...umm did you hear something...mayhap a troll beneath the bridge?

now to something that matters...

Wouldn't you think that to make sure we have security we would work for complete independence from all outside resources? I mean those who are friends now can become enemies later. Just like Saddam was Rummy's buddy when he was killing Iranians...

So what if we got out of Iraq...and put that money and effort into energy security? Wouldn't that be better then more CIA or FBI agents that did "ahellavajob" before?

As a resident of Southern Louisiana, we have sun. Yet there is no tax cut for getting solar panels. What of those who live by the sea..and hydropower? or in places where the wind is active? Why is there not as much of a ground swell for this as there is for immigration...it sure has a bigger power to hurt us.

terra

"For sunlight turns them into stones,
forever into cold grey stones..."

Let the sunshine in!!
(nods to Rado, Ragni, and MacDermot)

Frank,
I can see that trying to be kind to you is a waste of time, you are having too much fun in belittling people that have never hurt you. Our faith is too important to us to have it be sallied by the likes of you, are taught that Goddess is in all life..that She honors all life, but neither She nor we are fools. Having respect for your life does not mean to be targets for your bad manners and rudeness.

So I suggest that all who are interested in shareing views on the question, the panalists replies and on our own interests...we ignore trolls...we have been feeding them and I think it's time to starve them out, leave them under the bridge and talk around them.

------
Trolls
...with thanks to Tolkein

Deep in gloomy dens of stone
live the creatures men call trolls--
(though what they call themselves
it seems no one ever knows)

Creeping forth to prowl at night
They scowl and growl and give great fright
To unwary pilgrims whose last sight
is of gruesome trolls in firelight...

And never more is pilgrim seen
on wooded paths `neath evergreen
for all that's left are some bones
mixed amongst the trash and stones
in troll's dank cave beneath stony knolls...

So beware, my friend, if you must go
on dreary paths through haunted dale
for lurking in their gloomy dens
trolls want you for their dinner-pail...

But not in day will trolls come out
and go creeping round about
(to eat you whole, without a doubt!)
and pick their teeth with your bones;

For sunlight turns them into stones,
forever into cold grey stones...

Frank-

No admission of fault when Lep busted you on the "Hardcover" issue, but you still call US frauds?

"yes you are all frauds. you claim these wonderful powers to work the elements and pretend that there are these spirits you commune with and when you are put to the test you cant do crap. thats fraud"

Frank- show me where any of us claimed to have the powers YOU assign to us. Dare you. Double dare you. Double-Dog dare you! (And yes, I know I said we have divine power in us, but, Frank dear, so do you. You just strangle it.)

Sorry, Frank, but I can't understand a word you say with your mouth full of flies.

Henry:

I can't speak for Terra, but for me, it's not even about the book. It's about Frank casting aspersions on my integrity with his wild generalizations. He has made the claim that anyone who calls him or herslf a pagan is a fraud. The book issue is simply one part of it.

And I too thank you for your kind words regarding my faith.

terra

the book thing is a Really Crazy Issue.

I suggest you ignore it unless you are having fun bantering with Frank.

And if you are, you ARE a magick worker.

best
henry

FRANK: **Anonymous:
show the claim that the books were only available in hardback?
you cant keep changing the claim just because i bust you.**

Glad to, bubba. Here is YOUR claim that the books were available ONLY i hardback. Scrol back up and read it for yourself if you don't trust my copy and paste.

**BUTTCRACKPAGAN:
terra:

http://www.starhawk.org/ is the site for starhawk and her "tangled web."
she sells books, 9 if i count correctly - only available in hardback. that means expensive.
take a moment - click on a book and feel the bs slime out - be sure to wear boots and rubber gloves and maybe a facemask.
workshops at $450.00 each -
it's not that you are not funny and enjoyable to see and hear - but lets cut the crap - she is in it for the money.
AND SHE CANNOT DO WHAT SHE CLAIMS or we would have clean air, water, and no global warming.

FROM THE LOONIE'S BOOK:

"According to our legends, Witchcraft began more than thirty-five thousand years ago, when the temperature of Europe began to drop and the great sheets of ice crept slowly south in their last advance. Across the rich tundra, teeming with animal life, small groups of hunters followed the free-running reindeer and the thundering bison. They were armed with only the most primitive of weapons, but some among the clans were gifted, could "call" the herds to a cliffside or a pit, where a few beasts, in willing sacrifice [THINK THESE CREATURES ACTUALLY SAID - HEY LETS BE A WILLING SACRAFICE - HELL I WANT TO BE EATEN AND DIE TODAY HOW ABOUT YOU GUYS?], would let themselves be trapped. These gifted shamans could attune themselves to the spirits of the herds, and in so doing they became aware of the pulsating rhythm that infuses all life, the dance of the double spiral, of whirling into being, and whirling out again. They did not phrase this insight intellectually, but in images: the Mother Goddess, the birthgiver, who brings into existence all life; and the Homed God, hunter and hunted, who eternally passes through the gates of death that new life may go on."

you have to admit - its pretty funny stuff.

Posted June 22, 2007 8:42 AM**

Now, who is it that's been busted - repeatedly - as a liar?

Crank:

**and i do get a kick out of you, unless you are ripping someone off with your sale of pretend wands, pointy hats and books that you pass off as the real deal when they are found in the fiction section of the book store.**

You're confusing us with Harry Potter.

Crank:
**Paganplace:
well i showed you that they are. i looked but cant seem to find a statement by me that hard covers were available at her site - fraud that she is. maybe i did but i cant seem to find it.**
You must not have looked very hard - if you click on the 100Fires banner at the bottom of each book description, you'll find a price list for paperbacks.
You could also go to the two most popular online bookstores - Barnes and Noble and Amazon. If you go to either and do an author search for Starhwk, you get a list of books, most of which are paperback. Or just google "Starhawk paperback" and you'll get a nice long list as well.

**lepidopteryx:
Frankie:
I sell nothing. You made the claim that the books were only available in hardback, which made them more expensive. I simply showed that claim to be false.

GUESS YOU ARE WRONG - THEY ARE AVAILABLE IN HARDBACK.**

No, dear boy. You made the claim that they were ONLY avaialble in hardback. ONLY - your word. I showed you that you are wrong.

**so again the tramp of the midst or what ever you call your fake goddess - must have told you wrong.**
I don't waste my time calling n fake goddesses. i call the one who responds to my calls "Mother".

**there are no real pagans, witchess, warlocks, or wiccans - its just a cute little game you like to play - its all pretend and i find it very entertaining.**
I'm glad you find us amusing. As Bill Cosby used to say "Keep watching. And if you're not careful, you just might learn something."

It's just sad, is what it is.

It smells like fear, ignorance and hatred.

Ah well...

Anyway, Glad you had a good birthday, Terra.

I don't get the impression it's ''Lady Selena's'' way to dive into such a fray as this. (I don't think she claims this title for herself, but to me, she's earned it thrice over)

Any or all other things being equal, I'd just as soon she didn't.

We're dealing with willful idiocy, here.

We could be talking about Iraq, really, if not for one guy who claims we're 'Islamic' and 'the enemy' cause he's that *bent in the head.*

Which we deal with all the time. Just for having kids. Or being alive. Or saying, 'Frick, no, not in our name you don't' to a Fundie president.

It's not your obligation to expose yourself to this, Terra.

This is likely to get a bit ugly, at least in spots.

Keep those foots on the ground, brother.

This would-be-man is *not* your concern.

If he's *my* concern, Antaeus, I'm counting on someone like you being there for me.

Hold some space for me.

Believe it or not, I'm not all that convinced I'm so soul-smart myself. ;)

One free man, though.

That's powerful.

Namaste. :)

Wiccan and Antaeus,
Thank you for the Birthday wishes..it was a lovely day. I wish all of you were with me, we had a wonderful barbeque...

I must agree that having even one Pagan leader as one of the panalists on this forum is such a gift. I would love to have Selena Fox on though too...I have taken some of her ministerial intensives and some other workshops. She would be another wise Pagan voice. Phyllis Curotte would be wonderful also, I met her at PSG's 25th anniversary. She would be very interesting. Boy what a time...so many leaders and authors.

Frank, I have asked you before what you think magick is. You never answered me.

From Spiral Dance,page 27-

Magick, the art of sensing and shaping the subtle forces that flow through the world, of awakening deeper levels of consciousness beyond the rational.

Frank, no one in Witchcraft would ever say that we have powers that others do not have. If you have an open mind all is possible. We see things in a wondrous way..as children do, with eyes wide open.

You do not have to like Starhawk or us... we can not make you see things as we do. It may not be within you to be anything but what you are. It is up to us how we relate to you...we are in control of our selves, not of you.

I like this forum, I look forward to coming here and conversing with those I have come to know here. I will not alow you to make this haven uncomfortable for myself, so you can join in on the shareing that is possible here, or not. It is up to you. I can ignore you, that is up to me.

Starhawk's books are worth the price...if you do not want to read her, don't buy the books. Starhawk does not force anyone to buy her books or take the workshops. People must find them worth while...

Blessings,

terra

Sigh. I just spent some time carefully composing a reply to Frank the the Washington Post would not let me post. If you scroll up, you will find the place where Frank mentions Starhawk's site, then says he looked at her 9 books there, but that they were only avialable in hardcover. Now, if you go to Starhawks site and look at the page that leads to her books, then at the page for each book, the site she points you to to purchase them is not amazon, where Frank found a hardcover edition of one of her books, but 100fires.com, which only sells paperback or used copies. Therefore, at the time and place he said she only had hardcover copies, there were only paperbacks for sale. I still don't understand why hardcover books are evil, or why authors shouldn't make a living by selling books.

As far as witches, pagans, wiccans or "warlocks" not existing, I'm sorry Frank, but we are real. I actually exist, as a physical person. I worship nature, talk to trees and the moon, and honor multiple divinities based on nature. Therefore, I am Pagan. I burn candles and insense to petition the gods and the universe for specific favors, I spread the Tarot cards to catch glimpses of the furture, and I carry around semi-prescious stones in my pockets for preventing headaches and to stay awake on my job. Therefore I am a Witch. I cast a circle by calling the elements to the four directions, I worship a Triple Goddess and a Horned God in that circle, and my friends and I raise power in the form of a cone and Draw the Power of the Moon down on our Priestess. Therefore I am Wiccan.

Now, you can say none of these things have any effect, or that the effect is purely psychological. You can say we are evil or deluded. But we do in fact do them, and trust me, we believe in them because we have felt the power and experieced the changes the devine has made in our lives. Therefore, we _are_ Pagans, Witches, and Wiccans.

I'm afraid anyone claiming to be a "Warlock" are on their own as I have no information on them.

And now I fear I must go to bed. So goodnight all, and Many Blessings from the Sunflower State to you.

I mean, just a *random* idea, here, but why don't you try *living for five minutes* like there's *more to he universe than where Frank Collins *maniacally tries to *displace the blame.*

How bout it?

Otherwise,

STFU.

Basically, Frank. No, it's not "safe" out here in the world. No one knows this better than Pagans.

We never know if someone like you with your *serious logical interrupts* and a conviction we're 'the ememy' is going to do bad stuff to us or our kids.

I know you're afraid.

More than that, I know what *made* you afraid.

Same thing that told you it was somehow important to you to come here and say what you do.

Whether it's true or not.

Your blazing display of illogic as quoted above shows it.

You're tring to make 'sense' of a world you were aised to believe held nothing but *fear and
punishment' by some outside 'judge of truth,' one which you try to 'appease' by *insisting you're telling the Truth even when you lie to people's faces about themselves.*

Did someone teach you that a person, say, *you* is not equal to spurious insults?

I'm sorry, Frank. I tell you honestly that this is *not in my power to make go away.*

In a world gone *fricking *backwards* * I feel for you. I really do. But.

The only one here thinking it *should* be in any given Pagan's power to 'make all this go away' is *you.*

I suspect this idea is birthed in Christianity's insistence that if people 'believe in Christianity' everything'll be OK, no matter what harm they do to themselves, each other, or the world.

What thing would you like next?

I don't agree that *you* aren't worth our time, Frank.

But *you* have to *show up.*

What I *don't* have time for is your fear and your bigotry and your irrationality.*

It's common. Redundant, useless, completely counter-rational and infantile.

And ignoreable.

Also something certain folks charge 120 bucks an hour (or your soul) to deal with, badly, in 'your' world'

You are *not* a waste of time, Frank.

Till you make yourself one.

I'm sorry, but you have, long since.

But that's not *you.*

Just your words.

I know you're afraid.

That's ...not enough.

Umm... Frank? Not to like, contest your ultimate theological determinancy over the entire universe, never mind all Pagans and Muslims everywhere, but, umm, have you noticed?

" sell nothing. You made the claim that the books were only available in hardback, which made them more expensive. I simply showed that claim to be false.

GUESS YOU ARE WRONG - THEY ARE AVAILABLE IN HARDBACK."

This does *not* follow.

I think it's possible you should leave the theology to someone else and try having compassion for yourself and those in your more immediate vicinity.

This place is just words.

You're not very good at it.

That's OK.

What would you like?

Antaeus

I completely understand your gratitude at being able to elucidate your Pagan Positions here on WaPo.

I have, most sincerely, been grateful to learn more from you and Starhawk and Terra and Wiccan about what you believe. You would think that growing up next to that hotbed of Pagan activity, the Harvard Divinity School, I would know more about what you all believe, but I have learned much from all of you. And I must truly say, not one iota has rung a false note with me. Because of you, I have become a Pagan Buddhist Atheist.

Starhawk is, as the live kids say, Awesome, and the rest of your are birds of the feather.

MAY the Goddess continue to bless us all.

Peace and Moon beams
Henry

(and you know how I excoriate most Christians and Mormons - so I am anything but a soft touch.)

Wiccan:

When I first became Pagan I lived in a small town in central Missouri, and for the first two years I also hadn't contacted any other Pagans physically. Eventually I began attending gathering 100 miles away in Kansas, and made enough connections there that I eventually moved there. Having an online Pagan connection would have been lovely, but I fear this predated both the internets and the affordability of PC's, at least by me. I did have some fun times on the undernet later on, and even did some online rituals that were very interesting--I remember one where a person in Oregon was watching the moon rise at the same time a person in South Africa was watching the sun rise.
Now that I have two jobs, though, even though I love them, it doesn't leave as much time to have social or religious contacts as I would like, which is one reason I am on the internet when I am home from my Day job. (My other job just means I have to stay home a lot, but still have access to the computer).

Antaeus:

I agree with you. I wish that Selena Fox, or Janet Ferrar, John Matthews or any of the other prominent Pagan writers could also be a part of this forum so that folks could see the real diversity of thought in this community and how we seek to learn from others following a different path but who have something to share. But the fact that Starhawk is even here at all is a HUGE step in the right direction. And she's doing a great job.

First things first, I guess.

But don't waste your time on Frank. He only decided to come after us when we didn't fall for his 'all Muslims are evil' rants and decided to label us as 'islamic', whatever that means, because of it. He is incredibly predictable. Cut, paste, spam, troll, insult. Call people by some name 'he' thinks is appropriate. Nobody listens to him on any of the other threads either. That's the work of a selfish teenager, or at least the mentality. It's all about him. It gets old, fast.

Wait until someone has a genuine question. He wants you to be insulted by him. He's afraid of anyone not like him.

Oh, yes, and I'll add my wishes for a happy birthday to Terra. May the next year of your life bring you many wonderful things, both expected and unexpected.

Antaeus-

I echo your praise of this forum. I choose "wiccan" as my avatar because, here in the wilds of Northern Virginia, I felt like I was the only one. Through this forum I have met wonderful people of all (or no) faiths, from whom I have learned so much. And it feels great when I read a post from another Pagan, and I know exactly what they're talking about! Honestly, if dealing with people like Frank is the price I have pay to learn from the rest of you, I'm getting a bargain. (I just wish they had more questions that don't directly relate to the Abrahamic faiths. Oh well.)

Henry James:

I don't know if it is Charity so much as just eagerness to explain and defend my faith. I also must confess that as a Leo, I greatly enjoy having an audience, so am writing more to the people reading than to Frank. I honestly wish he would post clearer and better thought out objections so we would have more opportunities to explain our positions on magic more specifically. Of course, if someone else reading has questions themselves that Frank has not raised, we would like to hear from you too. I am just so grateful to the Washington Post for having this forum so that Pagans can at last have a voice on faith that has somewhat of a national audience. And, of course, having been a fan of Starhawk from way back, I'm happy she is the voice that is representing the Pagan community, though I'm sure Phyllis Currot, Janet Ferrar, Selena Fox or many others would have been wonderful as well.

Antaeus

You are TOO long suffering to try to explain to Frank the distortions in his perceptions.

I admire your Pagan Charity, but I must advise you that it is a losing effort.

It is, though, a testament to your goodness.

may the Goddess bless you

you bless us.

H

*unrolling the "What are you trying to prove" sign for Frank.

Yeah, that'd actually be 'fiction' cause that's the form it's written in, Frank.

You were fussed about something?

Take your time.

Got some RL to deal with.

Speak it. :)

Terra-

Happy Belated Birthday Blessings! I loved your explanation of magick to Frank; he missed the point of course, but I was nodding with each instance.

I think we Pagans have earned Frank's emnity because we kept calling him out on his wild imaginings about Islam. Obviously, people who could resist being terrified by his out-of-context quotes from the Suras and Hadiths were people that must be dealt with harshly. Then, to make things worse, we don't get all flustered and upset when he lies about Paganism; we just keep correcting his fantasies. And he's got to do this all by himself. Concerned will help him with Islam, but he's been deserted by his anonymous friend who tried to help him insult Paganism. Poor Frank, tilting at windmills he made himself. I think I'll burn some sage for him.

No, actually you said the link from her site had hardcover books only. The link from her site, that she advises you use to support smaller business, only has paperback editions for sale.

The Fifth Sacred Thing is a fiction novel, one of two Starhawk has written. Do you object to fiction? I still don't understand why you think she shouldn't make money off of books. Are you a socialist who believes all books should be free? Or do you oppose the writing of books altogether? I am confused here. If Starhawk had remained a therapist only, and if Phyllis Curott, the other Pagan author you linked to, had remained a lawyer only, why would those methods of earning money have been more ethical than as an author? I know that Plato had a very poor opinion of poets but since you refuse to confirm your own philosophical background I don't know if that is why you object to authors. Since you won't confirm being a Christian, are you an atheist or agnostic? Many of them object to any hint of Mystery in the universe, so that could also explain your hostility.

At any rate, it is hardly fair of you to attack what you perceive as our viewpoint without stating the principle behind you own viewpoints. About all I've noted is that you really hate Islam and think all Pagans are fakes, though fakes at what I'm not sure. Your postings seem to be less coherent than they once were--maybe you need to relax awhile, breathe, and think about where you are coming from so you can state a rational position yourself rather than just attacking the Pagan postions, or at the very least attack actual Pagan postions rather than those out of you imaginations. Gary, for example, pointed out his disagreements with Nature as a worthy object of worship. Since we actually do worship Nature, we were able to formulate answers to his questions that made sense to us at least if not him. But your attacks on our "powers" are so vague that I'm not sure what you are talking about. What specific powers do we claim to have, and where was that claim made? Not that I'm denying we have "powers" since I don't know what you mean by that word. I'll give a quote here from the Starhawk book _Truth or Dare_ so that you will see what exactly _we_ mean by magic, and you can tell us what about that definition you think is impossible.

"Magic is a word that can be defined in many ways. A saying attributed to Dion Fortune is 'Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.' I sometimes call it the art of evoking power-from-within. Today, I will name it this: the art of liberation, the act that releases the mysteries, that ruptures the fabric of our beliefs and lets us look into the heart of deep space where dwell the immeasurable, life-generating powers." (from Chapter one, page 6 of Truth or Dare, by Starhawk)

So which of these things do you deem impossible? Changing consciousness? realizing that you have the power within yourself to change your situations? or is it the idea that there even exists something that could be called "mystery"?

Actually, pretend there's no Muslims. (While you're at it, pretend that continuing to call Starhawk a profiteering scam after discovering that your original premise for this turned out to be *wrong,* if not a *lie,* doesn't wash in the rational world. What motivated you?)

Why do you continue to insist people are promising to and failing to deliver upon an idea that was only ever in *your* head, sport?

Christian. (Hey, in your own 'duck' metaphor, you clearly are one, or at least stuck in that world, ...this apart from what you let slip when you're, umm, 'looser of tongue'.)

What drives you to this?

We'll keep the bad, bad, bad, 'Islamics' away for the time being.

They are not here.

Now.

You.

What's this all about?

*Now* speak it.

Go ahead and speak it. I'm listening.

(For the studio audience, this is where he spouts further abuse. Just let him, I suggest.)

Ah, well, Frank either lies or is just that turned around that actual truth is meaningless *all the time.*

Apparently he feels his only valid purpose in life it to try and 'attack evil' and whether or not any harm is actually being done by any particular target is at best a tertiary concern compared to 'Frank and what he represents is always right in all circumstances' and that 'Anyone who says differently from Frank is 'evil' and therefore much more 'wrong' than whatever pops into his head to say, as long as it makes him feel a certain way, even if it's not actually anything to do with facts or their own words. '

Apparently, the poor soul feels that if he keeps attacking, it protects him from something. It can only be very close to him, likely a sense of 'entitlement' that covers his ego from some horrible self-knowledge that, typically, has nothing to do with reality, anyway, just imposed by an abusive view of the universe inculcated from a young age by a system fixated on calling young males 'valueless' unless perhaps they can be directed against whatever happens to look 'evil.'

Locking him in an obsessive and destructive idea that someone'll come address his pain if he clings to it hard enough, and that if someone told him the world isn't as hostile as he was taught, that that'd make the pain unreal and he'd just be another human being.

You wonder what I've done, Frank. Do you have any idea *how* many adult-abused kids I've had to deal with?

You can believe me about the Mother or not.

But anyone who told you this *crap* you speak here solves anything,

Lied.

This will not buy you dignity.

Courage is more often shown in kindness. And if you must... Fake it till you make it.

There are no 'enemies' here.

Paganplace:

Actually, not on Amazon there isn't. That would be a good thing though--I have three copies, two with the covers off and one worn in half.

But while looking for one, I followed the link on Starhawk's home page, the one Frank said led only to hardcover copies. I discovered much to my shock that _all_ of the copies of her books at the bookstore she points you to, 100fires.com, are either in paperback or used. Is it possible we have caught Frank in a blatant lie? Or could he have seen a different link from her page? Oh Frank, could you please post the link to the page where all Starhawk's books are in hardcover editions? I could really use some of them, and if you can't do that, I fear I will have to consider you a shameless liar.

Oh, and, hint. People who spell 'Magic' extra-very-funny? Quite possibly overcooking things a fair sight.

May be trying to 'prove something,' even.

Anyway, as for you 'not saying you're Christian,' well, apart from *pretty much no one having these wacky ideas of yours in that way,* ...your Scriptural literalism, (and yes, you do seem to quote the Bible as an 'authority' when sufficiently drunk or unstable,)

...your insistence on a world of strict 'good and evil' defined by words, umm, calling people 'warlocks,' umm. ....yeah.

That comes out of conservative Christianity.

It's actually a rather particular and idiosyncratic worldview that you may be surprised *doesn't matter, never mind make sense, to most humans, already.*

Let's not forget that you were at best unwilling or unable to note that Starhawk's books are all available in paperback before claiming she was 'scamming' people with hardcover editions.

(Does a hardcover 'Spiral Dance' even *exist,* come to think of it? I'm always passing these on and replacing them anyway, but I've never actually seen one.)

Umm. Frank. Apart from that you're apparently barking mad, I never said we don't 'use' magic, but rather that it would be pointless to *show* you magic, cause you'd just freak out.

Apparently just *referring* to an instance freaked you out, it seems.

I'm sorry for that, but you had it coming.

And, nope. Still not Islamic.

As for you, if you're 'Not Christian,' then why do you repeat their party lines and refuse to acknowledge that a Christian ever did the slightest wrong?

If you want to say 'You don't have any such abilities,' well, OK. But don't go accusing people of claiming what they *don't* just cause you seem to lack all discernment in seeing one individual in a 'group' from another.

Unfortunately, Antaeus, if *does* cost to go around speaking, even if one's in a great deal of demand. That's how life is.

If accessibility's an issue, maybe it'd help if our society figured that even poor people deserved a little discretionary income or something, rather than saying, 'You are scorned by God cause Calvinism said that's what poverty means, and therefore you must be lazy if you don't have lots of extra money to spend on diversions.'

Another thing Frank--you are the one who is attacking Pagans. Remember, this discusion is supposed to be about the morality of staying in Iraq. But instead of sticking to the topic, you are the one who questions Starhawk's sincerity, and by extension those of any potential Pagan spokesperson. And the things you are attacking her for are things that are commonplace in most if not all religions--earning her living as part of her postition as one of the most respected Pagan teachers in the nation. Please name one prominent religious teacher of any faith who has a seperate job on the side to support themselves. How on earth would they have the time to teach and speak on their faith if they had another job as well?

Frank, you're the one lying about claims of 'powers.' :)

And I've explained this to you before.

Just because you believe you have some authority (and apparently right to merchandise as a Christian, if you so choose) based on some *other* claims of 'miracles' doesn't mean that's what magic is or is supposed to be.

As I've said before, I've seen more than my share, but ...no, I won't tell you. Especially not cause you try to goad people.

You know why?

I said.

You couldn't handle it.

You'd figure it was from either Jesus or the Devil and just spin it back into the same old paranoia.

Why *should* we?

I'll tell you this: what *we* call 'magic' has been with us *all along.*

As for wanting us to 'magically fix' the global warming that the people polluting have been denying all along, as an excuse to ignore the fact that we've *known* 'Pollution is Bad,' for a long time that, umm...

Do you have any idea how much we've been *skating while people wise up* as it *is?*

You want to see this magic, *be it.*

Stop making it worse. Stop spending your energy attacking those who point out the problem, and defending those who keep *accelerating the problem.* Or diverting everyone's attention with xenophobia while the 'good guys' you won't question keep *poisoning the future.*

Suppose the magic, say, *merely* led me one day to drag a science student to test the water where some kids played to find out about an unknown leak from a local business?

It got fixed.

Do you really want to hear about the crow? :)

Cranky Franky, how much money have you actually been bilked out of by pagans who promised to work magical results for you and failed to deliver? My guess would be Zilch.

Unless you thought Bob from the Enzyte commercial was a pagan and gave them your credit card number.

Starhawk helped organize major cleanup efforts in New Orleans, and herself personally assisted in the cleanup of several properties.

There is one good thing she has accomplished.

Which "Pagan powers" are you talking about?

Frank, I feel no need to be redundant. Go back to your lily pad.

As for Starhawk - yes, her seminars are expensive. Perhaps too much for the average Pagan. However, she does not travel with an entourage, or have a big multimedia show. She does a lot of good work that is subsidized by the price of her seminars and the sales of her books. In comparison, I happened to see two semi trailers with "Creflo Dollar Ministries" chugging down I-95 yesterday, and I had a little chuckle at the name, and that someone was "worshipping the Almighty Dollar".

Could be, Henry.

Though, I think, really, that we must advocate an appeal to the international community for purposes of peacekeeping. Bush's move clearly embroiled us in a situation which cannot turn out well for us: the whole thing smacks of the Administration saying, 'Well, we can't leave now, suckers, or the American troops who've already died will have died for nothing.'

My answer is of course, 'So, you mean, *more* should die for nothing so you can keep acting unilaterally out of false *pride?*

I mean, the near-total lack of international should have been a sign of more than, 'It's time to call the French gay!' to the American 'faithful,' you'd think.

This is another key blunder of the Bush administration.

This job isn't doable without the UN or someone like them, and never has been.

Paganplace

I am all for speaking (jost don't write novels, I am NOT for competition).

It seems to me the most focused and potentially effective speaking is pressuring congress to demand an orderly and reasonably paced withdrawal (Ballmer's post here is actually very sensible).

The Bush liars are saying it will be chaos if we leave. It is chaos if we stay, as we have clearly demonstrated. Things have gotten significantly worse (including American soldier death rate) since Bush's "New Way" speech in January. 1/3 of Bagdad is under some kind of control.

I'd say one action comes to mind, right away.

Bush does not represent us, nor does the corporate media, bought as propaganda organs or cowed into complicity: nor certainly the churches out to convert the world and defend the political power they've been grabbing up.

We the people ought to take the leadership in speaking to the world, on peace, the environment, and all.

An intriguing fact is that a poll or two at the time said that a majority of Americans were actually disinformed about the actual situation in Iraq, and in these polls, said that 'if the state of affairs were (as it actually was)' then the invasion would have been strongly opposed.

The shifting rationales seem to be each bought up in turn by supporters when the previous one turns out to be invalid, but in fact, this war has *never* been supported by an informed American populace.

Bush doesn't speak for us. Maybe we should be speaking more effectively for ourselves.

Bush Under House Arrest in Italy

On Bush's recent trip to Italy, the hatred and vilification of Our Fearful Leader was so high that Italian authorities feared greatly for his safety, much more than on a usual head of state visit.

Terra's justified in not being too proud of our country right now. The world is not too proud of us right now.

We need to push for making up for the calamities Bush has caused with the war.

AND, we need some imagination and creativity: engage the restt of the world in a Different Way than we have. I have little hope that our President, whose primary virtue is stubborn ignorance, will be able to accomplish this.

How many days left in his administration? The congress has to take over. And We the People have to press them to do so.

The invasion of Iraq was based on lies and the belief of Armageddon. When you build on quick sand your house can not stand...and right now America is tottering on the edge of the abyss. Do we get back our idealism of being that beacon of freedom and truth...or do we stay in the mode of bully and facism. We are telling countries whose people are starving and dieing of disease...we will help you but not if you talk about family planning. We will help you as long as you go along with our beliefs. We will help you with meds for HIV Aids but don't talk about condoms.

I loved my country, because I saw it as that beacon of hope and progress for the world...but I am not proud to be American now...and if we do not make a big change our America will be gone and like Avalon, will be seen as a thing of Myth.

We owe the Iraqi people... we owe them peace and respect, schools, hosbitals and healthy children. The argument is not what we owe, but how to do it. So we need to bring the argument to not what, but how.

terra

Yeah, Henry. It's... madness, it seems.

Hopefully, the good folks'll wake up and do something before matters get too much worse. At least, I think it's already happening, as more folks get over the mute horror at said ignorant arrogance, as if these Fundamentalists are *trying* to bring about their 'Armageddon,' (while, of course, it seems, making a tidy profit.)

That can't stand, at least. Seems history's been here before.

9/11 happened on Bush's watch. As Commander and Chief he needed to fight terrorism to prevent another deadly "sucker punch". The fight has many fronts and Bush has addressed them all to include the Baghdad front with its Sunni, Shiite and bin Landen Islamic/"koranic" followers who terrorize the city 24/7.

Since the topic IS Iraq

i will repeat a joke that is more sad than funny, related to my Gazellian crack.

Aide: President Bush, two Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq today.

Bush: That's awful. How many is a Brazilian?

The sad truth of the joke is that it underlines the level of ignorance combined with arrogance (a particularly lethal combination)

that emboldened Bush et al to start this war.

A bit of levity -

Witches On Guard!

We will stand firm on the beaches
We will defend our groves
Our circles are sacred
Regardless of our foes
We will batten down our covensteads
And guard them from all comers
Protecting them with wands and brooms
No we don’t need hummers.

BY Silvlaro

Thank you all for the Birthday wishes...And Priver, I have trouble saying that once! lol.

Henry James, you are kind...but a gazellion?
My group claims my spelling is Gazellese...I think I will start my own country...Gazellica. ;p

Blessings to you all,
terra of Gazellica

Best beautiful birthday blessings, Terra. :)

(try saying that five times fast! ;) )

Hey, ...happy birthday, Terra. :)

Happy Birthday Terra

May you live a Gazellion more years.

and i truly have learned much from your posts. thank you.

Henry

Henry,
Sorry sweety but I already have a husband...and I think I will keep him. But my best friend happens to be a gay man, he is also our group's High Priest...come for a visit...; )

Yep I am 59...or will be tomorrow.

Thank you for the kind words...

terra

I should also remind that Clinton's 'bombing of Iraq' was primarily directed against radar and anti-aircraft sites that were painting the aircraft that were enforcing the no-fly zone.

Of course, he was *accused* of doing this to divert attention from the peccadillo that the Republicans used for political purposes, but what was he supposed to do, give up the internationally-supported 'no-fly zone?'

Quite different, actually, but I will note that the Republicans seem to have a habit of calling sound strategy 'political moves' and calling political moves 'sound strategy.'

A real concern at the time, mostly ignored, was that the sanctions were having the effect of creating anti-American sentiment on Iraq: this was the reason for the unfortunately-mismanaged 'oil-for-food' program in the first place: it was intended to get the Iraqi people fed while preventing Saddam from rearming.

It was known that invasion would simply create the very morass we see here, and that's why it wasn't done. That doesn't mean *nothing* could be done.

Get it?

"Henry the war was started because Saddam invaded Kuwait. Clinton was back to dropping bombs on Iraq in the late nineties. If it was Okay for Clinton why was it Wrong for Bush?"

At least, strategically, that was sound in that it helped prevent Saddam from using his army freely against his own people, particularly from the air.

And, actually, the terrible effects of the sanctions on the Iraqi people was in fact one of our concerns... a problem that many liberals and in fact Pagans were calling on the government to address while all the Christian conservatives wanted to hear about was Clinton's peccadillo.

Gary, the thing you repeated (after being answered, I notice,) that to you:

"Mother Nature looks nice around the edges but if you look deeper than about an inch you find a murderous old biddy that every so often procedes to wipe out 70 to 90% of the critters crawling about on her for no particualr reason."

You say 'murderous,' again implying *malice,* (I think you get this from your own religion, where your God is said to have murdered almost everything in existence cause he was 'jealous and wrathful' and all... This is not how we see natural disasters, or even extinction-level events.

'Particular reason' may be the wrong word, but to what *purpose or process?* Why, clearly, evolutionary. ELEs allow for greater complexity to arise.

As far as our own interests are concerned, certainly it doesn't serve us to create conditions for our own demise, or to spend our effort on destructive behaviors and religious-and-greed-based wars that throw our ecosystem out of balance, instead of on those things which might enhance our ability to withstand and survive the possibly-unavoidable.

Some Christians ask, 'What is our purpose as a species,' ...I say, half-jokingly, 'Well, as a species we're really good at making tools, exploring, and throwing things at other things: I think we're the Mother's really expensive asteroid deflection system. A little over time and budget, but hey.'

Don't think I don't spend a few moments here and there to ask Yellowstone if it wouldn't mind not-blowing-catastrophically-as-projected, though. :)

We can and should be acting to *preserve* the complexity and diversity of life in our biosphere, not overburdening it with uncontrolled population and then calling Nature murderous when we place huge populations in tsunami country.

Henry the war was started because Saddam invaded Kuwait. Clinton was back to dropping bombs on Iraq in the late nineties. If it was Okay for Clinton why was it Wrong for Bush?

First do no harm sounds good in theory but the reality is you can't make an omelet with out breaking eggs, you can't get all the tumor if you don't excise some small amounts of healthy flesh along with it and you can't get at megalomaniac dictators without having to go through some of their supporters.

Baruch

wise words. the first principle of all the Moral systems is, as the Buddhists say, Loving Kindness towards our fellows. The Rabbi said it, Jesus said it, Secular Humanist Atheists (Stalin was NOT a Humanist) say it.

The rest is commentary, as the Rabbi said.

The commentary on the Iraq War is that the War was NOT started and continued out of Loving Kindness.

It was started out of Fear, Hunger for Power, Deception, and Ignorance.

We SHOULD all TRY NOT TO act out of
Fear, Hunger for Power, Deception, and Ignorance.

The world has lost respect for the US because they understand that the US did so.

I just took an interesting stroll through these posts. I read some intelligent critical thinking, some good questions, some reactions, some attempts at bullying, some sincere desire for peace, a lot of assumptions, and some judgments based on little information.

I won't go point by point through all this because, what would be the point?

If we each look deep into our own heart and soul, what is there? Regardless of what anyone says, what name they go by, what work they do...regardless of whether you agree or disagree with someone's spiritual paradigm, what is the responsibility of each of us when it comes to issues like war, starving children, preventable disease, pollution, economic oppression, and the list can go on and on.

So to the folks who'd like to point a finger at me and call me out...look in the mirror. What have you done for the world lately? I am taking my own inventory. I do what I can. It's not enough, but no one of us can do enough, we have to do that together.

Baruch

Gary

I do understand the threats that you remind us Mother Nature has poised for us. And you post does give me more sense of your approach to them.

Antaeus responded much more incisively and eloquently than I could to your point (imagine ANYONE doing THAT!).

I don't Personify mother nature or the moon or the sun or the universe, my four first gods.

So I don't "blame" them for being either nice or not nice.

We grownups clearly live in a universe that is as Anteaus describes. And the most important point A makes is that we try not to be "deathly afraid" of death. It is a natural, inevitable part of life, whether is comes from a volcano or a car crash or in our sleep.

Shakespeare expressed your point best:
"As flies to wanton boys
Are we to the Gods.
They kill us for their sport."

Peace and War
Henry

I find it interesting that we (Pagans) stand accused of having claimed to have “powers”. I don’t remember any of us saying any such thing. When did one of us claim to be able to do “miracles”? … However, if by chance one of you does know how to go about such things I would be very interested in learning!

Actually every time you or anyone else has said:

Rain, rain go away
Come again some other day
Little (insert name here) wants to play
So rain, rain go away

:you have used a chant aimed directly at the rain and tried to shift it away. This would also be known as a prayer … a set of words designed to raise power and manifest ones Will in the universe. It’s interesting to note that Christians do this but do not recognize it as “spell work”.

Many people have been actively working to slow, if not stop, the pollution that we have been heaping on Gaea for sometime now. This shows me that those prayers have been working. While it appears to have taken a long time to manifest, consider that we are just now recognizing the work that many have been doing in small ways and in wide spread locations. Thus the impact of each individual has taken longer to see. Also keep in mind that when we send a prayer we need to consider how we word that prayer. Think of the old adage “be careful what you wish for, you just may get it” and then look around.

Somewhere along the way humans have developed the idea that they are “superior” and thus can do as they like. They see every “advance” as positive without thought to the negative impact it may have. How arrogant is this thought process and how demeaning. For when all is said and done it will be that arrogance that will bring our species to an end.

An example of this would be the practice of “modernizing” every so-called “backward” country of the world. While I can see benefits of addressing things like clean drinking water I also see that these tribes, for the most part, live with nature. Their lifestyles cause little, if any, negative impact to their environment. Would that we could say the same. Unless we seriously explore and use alternate, renewable energy sources such as wind, water and solar power our species will destroy this planet. The sad part is that what I have seen so far gives me little hope for my children or the future. This does not mean that I will give up; if I did I might as well take us all out right now. I will however work to do what I can, such as recycle, and pray for the best.

We are the flow
We are the ebb
We are the weavers
We are the web

Silvlaro

GaryD:

The part you are missing is that Pagans try to avoid being so terrified of Death that it becomes the most important consideration. All things living die, and all species will go extinct eventually--Gaea herself will die when the Sun makes its attempt at being a red giant. So yes, in Paganism, we also have our stories of Apocolypse, but they tend to be such as you have just stated rather than by a God destroying the Earth by decree or a wave of his hand. Many pagans believe in reincarnation of some form, and many of us also believe that consiousness lives in things other than just what scientists describe as "living", so that the physical death of the body or the extinction of our species doesn't necesarily mean our end. I for one will not allow this to mar my appreciation for the majesty and worthiness of Nature as an object of veneration.

Regarding the "do your magic for us, pagans! Rabbit out of a hat, now!" requests, we've had:

Frank: "I've been to the stonehenge summer solstice celebration and nothing happened".

What, really? You went to a celebration of the Solstice and all that happened was that some pagans celebrated the solstice? What a shock. No-one threw fireballs or anything? How disappointing for you.

I have no doubt that Starhawk claims to do magic to reduce the effects of pollution and dangerous weather, to encourage mankind to stop polluting, and probably recommends that others do magic for the same causes. Putting mental energy and willpower towards a goal is hardly a new idea, and trying to influence events by it is not entirely different to Christians praying for God to do it for you. The fact that so many pagans find it works for them should also not be a surprise.

Focusing your intent on something helps the side of magic that causes changes in *yourself*, and since she backs this up with physically protesting and writing publicly about good causes, I'm not surprised if she makes changes in the world.

The type of magic worked by many pagans is entirely different to that of Ceremonial Magicians (who often claim a more direct control over events). Paganism has awe and beauty, and joy at the love of nature, but quite often a distinct lack of fireballs. Sorry.

Mr. James looks at the things that are hanging on by their toe nails and over looks the really big scary and obvious. Yellow stone is a disaster waiting to happen that could in fact destroy most of humanity via starvation and lung disease among other thigs like pyroclastic flows.

Las palmas is maybe ant eruption away from drowning everything south and east of the Appalachians.

And there's a crack in the Hawaiian islands that if it lets go and slides into the sea will do pretty much the same for everything west of the Rockies then there's Cascadia, as well as perhaps another dozen super volcanoes out there that we don't know about.

Mother Nature looks nice around the edges but if you look deeper than about an inch you find a murderous old biddy that every so often procedes to wipe out 70 to 90% of the critters crawling about on her for no particualr reason.

Yes Frank, You seem to want to call 'put up or shut up' on the Wiccans. but I suggest that you go first.

What has Starhawk claimed to be able to do? Let's not conflate her with Harry Potter, Merlin, or the Charmed sisters. Let's have a direct quote from Starhawk herself as to what she powers she has claimed. Honestly I'm not all that familiar with her other than her contributions here. If she has made some outlandish claims I would like to know.

Also, why exactly do you feel that she isn't entitled to make a living? Maybe you've explained this before but i missed it. If Christian preachers are entitle to a paycheck and allowed to write books for profit why shouldn't a pagan?

Also, someone made a very good point about the 'Gifts of the Spirit' Jesus promised. Are you a Christian Frank? I would really like to see you walk on the water and raise the dead. That would be pretty cool. Can you give us a quick demonstration?

It would be tempting to just abandon Frank to his own immaginings, but someone reading this might believe that some of us claim powers that we in fact do not.

So, Frank, _exactly_ which powers is it that "we" claim we have, and where exactly did you see that claim made? It could be a simple misunderstanding based on multiple definitions of some word, that we were using it one way and you are taking it another. Or, you could have seen the claim made by someone who was indeed not ethical, in which case we would be glad to clear that up for you.

As for using our faith to make lots of money, that is hilarious. There are some people making a decent living out of selling us supplies, out of writing books that we are more than happy to purchase, or thru teaching us things we are more than happy to learn, but how is that different from any other faith? Do Christian preachers not get paid to preach anymore? As a child, my father was the paster of a small ultra-fundamentalist church, and we would occasionally have "revivals" where preachers called "evangelists" would come for a week or so to share their teachings from the Bible. As I recall we actually paid all of them, and the people who came to the services were actually asked to give money as well. Do you mean that in the 30 years since I left xtianity they don't pay preachers or christian teachers anymore? Amazing!

And in an earlier post, you mentioned that you never claimed to have any powers, but if I remember my sunday school lessons, as a Christian you should be able to do wonders and miracles as promised by Christ before he left. I think I remember a place where St. Paul was listing the various powers of Christians as well, I believe in the King James version they were called "gifts of the Spirit". If you don't have any of these gifts and cannot do any of the miracles as promised by Christ, how can you be sure you are a Christian?

What Lepidopteryx said :-)

Frankie:
I sell nothing. You made the claim that the books were only available in hardback, which made them more expensive. I simply showed that claim to be false.

When was the last time you paid for a seminar or some such? I never said that food and lodging alone for the seminars came to $450 per person. I said that food and lodging were included in the cost, meaning that the Starhawk did not personally pocket $450 from each attendee. A portion of that money goes to pay her for her time - what's wrong with that?

What "group" would you be referring to that doesn't pay taxes? I certainly pay taxes.

Since you refer to my faith as a fake religion, please tell me exactly what constitutes a real one.
Is it only tax-free status? There are lots of non-profit groups who are not required to pay taxes, but are not religions. The educational theatre company I helped found is one such group.
And I seem to recall not so very long ago that certain elements within the government were trying to have the Unitarian Universalists NOT be recognized as a religion. (They failed, by the way. UU churches are still recognized as religiousinstitutions and are tax-exempt. Do the UU's qualify as a real religion to you?)

You said "you - cant seem to get into the circle and do anything but make some free money by pretending your a religion." I make money by working 40 hours a week at a very boring job. My religion fills my soul, not my wallet.

You accuse me of "stealing money from those who think you can actually do something for them in this life, which you cant." The only thing I have ever offered to do for people in terms of my faith is to light candles and/or burn herbs on my altar, pray, or offer them divine light - none of which I would ever dream of charging for. I am no thief, and I will thank you to refrain from such accusations.

I never said that I alone could clean the oceans. None of us has ever made that claim. We have repeatedly tried to excplain to you the nature of magic and how your perceptions and deinitions of the word are inaccurate. You respond with demands to prove that we can do magic as you define it. Magic as you define it does not exist in our faith. Don't blame me if I cannot make the garbage in your mind manifest itself in physical form. I'm actually kind of glad it's trapped in your skull (except, of course, when it escapes via your keyboard).

As for turning you into a toad, why bother? You've done a damn fine job of that all by yourself.

My Gazelle

You're 59? If I were still alive, I would be 59 as well!!! we should get married. as long as you understand that I am a non practicing gay fellow.

Lovely ruminations. Gary will be astounded to realize that you know that Cats ear Bats, and still love them. I truly have become part Pagan due to my exposure to Starhawk and your graceful self, which I never would have done if it weren't for that cute little Sally Quinn.

Luv
Nenry

If Frank wants us Wiccans to "prove" that we have powers, I'd gladly turn him into a toad. Then again, why be redundant?

Yes, we Wiccans "worship the creation and the Creator". Because they are one and the same!

As for Iraq - I was of two minds going in there. I knew that Al Qaeda was not in Iraq, in any formal sense. (There was a group operating in Kurdistan that was actively fighting against Saddam's secular regime.) However, Saddam and his sons were scumbags that the world is better off without. However, the occupation has been one disaster after another. It is attracting anybody who wants to go in and kill Americans.

And What? - BUSH has not kept us safe from terrorist attacks. The hard work of many people in the military, intelligence, and law enforcement have kept us free from terrorist attacks. And it's an insult to all of them to imply that anyone would be less dedicated to protecting Americans. Clinton's people went after the people that did the first WTC bombing, and they're currently sitting behind bars in a Supermax prison. Osama Bin Ladin is still on the loose.

We pagans do not labor under a romantic delusion regarding Nature. We know how harsh Mamma can be.
I live in south Louisiana, and have seen firsthand what happens when there isn't enough rain, followed by too dammed much rain. I've been through more than one hurricane.
That does not change the fact that we are a part of the natural world and it does not cause us to abandon our efforts to live as harmoniously as possible within it.
When one of my cats robbed a bird's nest not long ago, I heard the cheeping of the baby bird she caught. As much as my heart went out to it, I did not attempt to take it away from her. Cats are hunters, and birds are one of the things they hunt. When a noise startles the cat, and she dropped the bird, I scooped it up and tried to save its life. It survived under my daughter's and my care for a couple of days, but internal injuries that we could not heal got the best of it. It broke my heart and my daughter's, and we cried as we dug a hole in the backyard, placed dishes of salt and water, lit incense and candles, and wrapped the tiny one in a bandanaplaced it gently in the hole, covered it over, and released its spirit back to the mother.
Death happens, often violently, often with the spilling of blood. We accept that when it is part of the natural cycle - as in predator and prey. We (or at least I) do not find the spilling of blood over political ideologies acceptable as part of the cycle.

As far as Gaea being a viscious old bitty...lol..well She is that alright, but also the Maiden of spring and the Mother giving of Her sustenance. I do not see Gaea or life as all love and light...I lived through Katrina and a few other of Nature's tantrums in my 59 years. I also see the rainbows that follow the storm.

How Pagans face life and death is what makes us Pagan. It's all a circle...action, reaction, harmony, disharmony, Opposite but not opposing, it all works together, to create new life.

I love my cats...even when they bring in a mouse or bird and leave the guts in my dining room, or bring in a live snake as a love offering. As far as the cardnals and hawks...when I moved here this was barren land, the loggers had raped it, so all that was left was briers and scrub...not a bird or bee...after 10 years of hard work, this land has been brought back to life. We have hawks that call and circle(and go after our chickens), we have cardnals, songbirds and hummingbirds, rabbits, wild turkeys, egrets and deer... so yes even though it took lots of work...when I stand back and watch the Dragonflies and butterflies, it is magick. When I see bees polinating my fruit trees and buzzing around my herbs and veggies...it is magick. It's the only way magick can happen...through the person working it and in this case, working with nature in love and respect.

Starhawk's books are no more exspensive then any other book,should she give her work away? Is this for everyone, or simply just for Pagan authors? and they most certainly do come in paper back...so someone is mistaken or is a lier.

Maybe more folks in here need to read Starhawk's books...I would recommend Spiral Dance. Also pay a visit to her site...
www.starhawk.org

Maybe if you knew just a little of who we are, you could at least speak from a place of knowledge and not out of your ..ear.

Blessed be....
terra

Oh, and, Henry. Welcome home. :)

And, good to see you, Terra, Antaeus, and others it's been a while since I saw. :)

On this, Gary: a few misconceptions, here:

"Modern paganism. And excuse to fart around in the woods by city folk who lacking any real experience with Nature think Gaia a lovely old Gal when in truth any farmer will tell you she is a vicious old biddy and any geologist can tell you how vicious. "

Modern Pagans are hardly the 'clueless city folk' you try to characterize us as. (Certainly, a few of we city folk may tend to romanticize the 'out in nature' thing, like so many others, but the religion itself doesn't teach that Nature is some happy-dippy place: quite the contrary, ...we don't believe you can *have* the 'Dominion over Nature' that certain monotheist religions vainly promise.

This doesn't mean we can't love Earth for what She is.

Many of us, city-born or not, (and there are plenty of rural Pagans, homesteaders, and farmers, like the ones I spent Midsummer night with, actually,) are actually *quite* in touch with the day to day realities of rural life: certainly in a place such as I am right now, the power of the weather is not something one would be tempted to trifle with, especially in our view of things.

Vicious, though? That probably wouldn't be a word we'd choose. I wouldn't say very many of us see the kind of *malice* that you're portraying here for some reason.

Certainly, for instance, it wouldn't be a very Pagan idea to, say, urbanize along the coasts of Indonesian islands, ignoring the traditional wisdom of the folks who've lived there, then cry, 'Why, God, Why?' when the inevitable tsunami comes along.

*wandering in* Well, good afternoon, everyone. What an absolutely lovely Midsummer night that was, here. :)

I see the would-be smear machines have been out in force. (Do they think they're serving their god or something?)

But, don't worry, Henry, there's plenty of cool and respected Pagan men out there. Starhawk's always been quite connected to the more feminist branches of the movement, so it's no surprise there's a lot of women involved there.

Just for 'what?' though.

Paganplace:

""Umm... What?
>>thats me""

It's also about my reaction to everything you write. :)

""So well-named, you.
>>ditto (Carl Sagan's kinda pagan too, isnt he?)""

Whatever that has to do with anything, no, he wasn't Pagan, actually he was quite an atheist, ...though with his wonder for the universe and respect for the Earth and other humans, maybe you could say 'kinda Pagan.'

""You try to characterize our own beliefs in terms of *your* possessions-and-dominion-oriented view of the world.""

>>You try to characterize your own beliefs in terms of *your* own pagan views...leaping gnomes, pegasus, Apollo...whatever of your 'myths' fit""

Umm, yes, it would be silly for me to characterize my own beliefs in terms of someone *else's* beliefs entirely, silly! Particularly when those other people's characterizations are somewhere between out of left field and defamatory.

"That's *not what this is, dude.*

>> ok *dude* (or is it *dudette*) ...you sound like a teenybopper."

I thought that might help. :)

It's usually called ad hominem whatever the gender of the person involved, but you could go with dudette if you need to know. :)

Ok, Frank,
I know I said I was going to ignore you, but instead I am calling you out as a BLATANT LIAR!

Every one of Starhawk's books are available in paperback - I have some of them IN PAPERBACK on my bookshelf.
And her website links to an independent online bookstore that lists PAPERBACK prices.

And those workshop fees include food and lodging for several days. Some of them also offer work trade in lieu of a portion of the fees.

And why exactly should she not get paid for her work? Does your pastor get paid? Does Builly Graham get paid when he comes into a town to hold a revival? Does Tim Lahaye get paid for his books? I'm sure Josh McDowell gets paid for his.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your rants.

Sorry

hillary's advance was $12 MILLION

Henry James-

It sure seems there a quite a few coming here who've forgotten their manners. Yours, however, are delightful. America's Greatest Literary Critic is always welcome here. :-)

I'm Shocked, Shocked
to learn that Starhawk makes money from her books.

Didn't she get a $12 advance for her next one? Oops, wait, that was Hilary Clinton.

Most people who publish books make about $20 each on them. Since Starhawk is such a famous Pagan I am sure she makes $5,000-20,000 for books that take her 1/2 a year to write.

She sure seems like a Greedy Capitalist Pagan.

Gary, thank you so much for letting us know that "she (Gaia) is a vicious old biddy and any geologist can tell you how vicious."

Thanks to your information, I have stopped such sentimental practices as Terra described: being energized by the sunrise, fascinated by crickets, loved by my cat, aesthetisized by Hawks and Cardinals.

If lions are going to eat antelopes, I will no longer take any pleasure in nature and other creatures.

I surely take no pleasure from you.

Love and Kisses
Henry

(is it just my imagination, or are there lots of ill-natured men and lots of affirmative women who are attracted to Starhawk's site? As many of you know, I'm not much of a man)

What?

Tell you what- you don't make any asinine remarks about our religion, and we won't make asinine remarks about yours. Deal?

Paganplace:

Umm... What?
>>thats me

So well-named, you.
>>ditto (Carl Sagan's kinda pagan too, isnt he?)

You try to characterize our own beliefs in terms of *your* possessions-and-dominion-oriented view of the world.

>>You try to characterize your own beliefs in terms of *your* own pagan views...leaping gnomes, pegasus, Apollo...whatever of your 'myths' fit

That's *not what this is, dude.*

>> ok *dude* (or is it *dudette*) ...you sound like a teenybopper.

Ted Baines said: "unless the immigration of Muslims is completely stopped we will not be safe."

Wow, there's a statement. I wonder if OnFaith would like to pose that as next week's question?

I didn't think there were any of these guys left - someone who'd recommend we protect ourselves from the KKK by throwing all the Christians out of the country.

What's more worrying is that anyone thinks that Muslims only exist outside the US, or that extremists can't be home-grown (like the London bombings, for example.) Amazing.

buttcrackpagan:
The variety of traditions within paganism (and within Wicca) mean that Starhawk's approach to her path can be entirely different to other lines. However, in her role representing paganism on this forum, I've found that many pagans agree with her attitude to real-world issues almost completely. She wrote her first books at a time when inspiration and passion were sorely needed, and historical accuracy may not always have been the top priority :) If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em.

(Incidentally, what is it that she 'claims' that she's not doing, since you seem to imply she would single-handedly solve global warming?)

Frank,

You speak disrespectfully about mysteries of which you know nothing. Start by reading Joseph Campbell's Power Of Myth, or Jung's Archetypes.
If you pay attention, it might keep you out of trouble for awhile.

Regarding safety at home, unless the immigration of Muslims is completely stopped we will not be safe.

Sunnis and Shias would have eventually begin killing each other in Iraq even if Saddam had been alive. They have been killing each other for the last 1400 plus years. Oil had compounded the issue. All the oil in Shia land was being stolen by the Sunnis. Now the Sunnis in Iraq have little revenue. Does Starhawk belive that the removal of Saddam was not a good thing?

Pretty good GARYD, you got two out of three!

Maiden, Mother, and Crone.

Somewhat of a consensus, though I would hate to come across as dogmatic.

Modern paganism. And excuse to fart around in the woods by city folk who lacking any real experience with Nature think Gaia a lovely old Gal when in truth any farmer will tell you she is a vicious old biddy and any geologist can tell you how vicious.

Terra--

Actually, Many moons ago in 1986, I happened to be at a Pagan Festival Starhawk was at, and attended some workshops and rituals led by her. And, I am happy to report, she beats her drum very well. A doumbek, I believe it was at that time. :)

And Frank, it is not that we claim any special powers greater than any other human. We just try to be more aware of and focused on what we are doiong, of the effects of our actions on everything else, and more importantly, of the connection that we (and everyone else) has with ALL THAT IS. And if Starhawk wanted to be making lots of money, she could have remained a therapist in the bay area instead of traveling all over sleeping in leaky tents, chilly jail cells, or on lumpy couches half the time.

Henry James:

Yes, thats the effect Starhawk had on me when I first started reading her as well. It was a little frightening--I had prided myself on never agreeing completely with anything or anyone I read. Thank goodness when I read her second book I actually found a couple of paragraphs to disagree with.

To All:

It was a lovely Solstice here in Kansas. My group won't meet until the weekend since we're scattered over two states, but I was able to weave a cord as the sun went down to take to our ritual, capturing the last light of the midsummer sun. Here's hoping that as the light of the year begins to wane, so will the war in Iraq. Enough and too many have died there already. May the blessings of the Green Lord and the Lady of Summer be with you.

A Happy and Blessed Solstice all ye here!

And know the Mystery of the Unbroken Circle!

My blessed Online friends, at the end of this Summer Solstice day I wish you all fortune, abundance and health!

Merry Meet!

terra

Frank...

Who has been telling you about our Powers? Hollywood and books?

I will tell you about our powers...
This morning we went outside in the beautiful dawn and watched the sun rise for the Solstice.

As we chanted the sun up and we greeted it with chant a hawk circled and a cardnal visited us...That was magick... the sun rose and the world is alive...a cricket jumped into our honey, and my little chahuahua stole our bread...that too is magick...it brought laughter. My cat climbed the post of the pergola and sat watching us, that too was magick.My Wisteria which had already bloomed earlier this spring sent out one beautiful flower this morning....that was magick. That it was a wonderful day and a happy one was magick.

Frank, change your view of what is magick, your idea of it is fantasy, something like Charmed.

Frank our magick is not turning lead in to gold, it is not pulling a rabbit out of a hat, or hexing you into a toad...as lovely as that would be, it is connecting to life and honoring it.

You belittle yourself when you speak as you do to Starhawk. She came to New Orleans and to Mississippi after Katrina and Rita. She went onto people's land and helped them get rid of the polution...she worked to help clean out homes...She has worked for justice all over the world, even to protecting homes and lives in Palestine.

Frank you are ignorant...and maybe you need to know what you are talking about. Starhawk does not beat her drum...she does not need to, she walks her talk...all you do is talk.
terra

Brambleton,
Lets see, the first WCT bombing was in 1993...and there were no others( except for the Oklahoma bombing, which was Home Grown) until Bush was in office. And the ones who were guilty of that crime? in prison, The Blind Shiek-Omar Abdul Rahman and 6 others.

They were caught...no black prisons, no torture, no fear and war...Just catching the bad guys. But then Clinton did not need to play GI joey.

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" (Hanlon's Razor)

PRIVER: **There's a lot of fear in what Frank says and does.**

Perhaps you're right.

Frank, honey, it's ok. I won't bite you.
Unless you say pretty please. ;D

Lepi, you said:

"PriveR, Paganplace, et al, if you would care to expand on my brief description of Paganism 101, please feel free."

You did a great job, even with a few lines, and you and Paganplace and others are much more eloquent than I.

Wiccan,
Beautiful poem for Litha. Loved it. :)

Blessed be all on this Midsummer!

There's a lot of fear in what Frank says and does. A cry for attention. Sad, really. For his family, anyway.

Steve:

Frankie makes the same post every time Starhawk posts a response to a question or every time a pagan posts a response. He's like the needle stuck on a scratched record (and I've just revealed my vintage, I guess). Several of us, inluding myself, have explained to him the ideas of karma, harmony versus control, and unforeseeable consequences. He responds the same demand that we "do magic" at his command. I guess he's waiting for one of us to turn him into a toad, but it would be redundant, since every time he hits the Post button, he turns himself into a jackass.

Who would think that the consistently most admired columnist on this site from my perspective would be the Pagan Ms. Starhawk.

She has verily converted me to Paganhood by her truth.

I most sincerely must REPEAT that I have never heard her hit a false note here, and her view on Iraq is the highest combination of reason and sensibility.

We don't even need the verification of that creature named Frank's vilification to certify the humaneness and wisdom of Ms Starhawk's thoughts.

Thank you, Ms. S. Yes, the US left the realm of morality long ago, and has no tether by way of which to return.

What seems to be missing is the understanding that there really was "a second Pearl Harbor"; but that it too went awry and taking our country hasn't succeeded yet.

The Iraq war 'doesn't make sense'; and there should be an understanding that when something 'doesn't make sense' the probability is you either don't have all the facts or just don't know what's going on.

450BC.
This shia/sunni violence aided by USA is same as that between Sparta and Greece.
"Unhappy Greeks who only kill each other"( aided by the Persian Empire).
History does repeat itself.

Done to the Judiciary? You mean like restored some freaking sanity to a judiciary that has been passing laws from the bench for years never mine that they aren't CONSTITUTIONALLY allowed to do so. Or is that particular seperation of powers not germaine?

Seperation of Powers you mean like actually trying seperating them? Being against gay marriage isn't gay bashing like it or not. That or 80% of the country is guilty.

Sheer number of signing statements? So basically your complaining over the fact that Bush resisting congress' tendency to want to micro manage the country and the executive is a bad thing. I thought you were in favor of seperaration of powers?

All the intellectual babble posted here (which when distilled="you know I'm right") has to fall into two, and only two categories (BTW...you know I'm right):
1) Countries go to war to preserve their integrity (WW II)
2) Countries go to war to supposedly preserve the integrity of other countries, i.e, "we know what's right for you" (Iraq)

We now return you to our regularly expected barrage of "intellectual" dribble...

OH....yeah...why do young men still fight old men's wars???...Answer: where have all the flowers gone?

I'm in full agreement that we should have never invaded Iraq, those who supported the war and those who didn't but failed to stop it bear a very real responsibility to the Iraqi people. A day or week of mourning and sincere contrition would probably do us some good; however I do not believe that making an apology and then pulling out is a responsible course of action. Not if it’s going to dramatically increase the misery and distress of the Iraqi people, and I believe that’s exactly what a pullout at this point would do…

I urge everyone, especially those opposed to this war to really sit down and consider all the dynamics of this conflict. The facts on the ground right now. The struggle for power among various groups in Iraq, the fragility of an elected central government and the full impact a U.S. withdrawal would have on the civilian populace caught in the middle.

We can not undo an invasion by simply pulling out, and pretending it never happened. I believe we need to accept that the mistake was made and that now we owe the Iraqi people our very best effort to establish peace, stability and security in Iraq. Not some half hearted effort (what we’ve done up to this point) designed to make it look like we care, but an all out effort to accept responsibility and fix what we broke. They are us and we are them, I do not believe that washing our hands at this point is an acceptable solution.

Love & Blessings,

Mark

And while I'm on, Happy Midsummer all! :)

So, Frank Collins...

You're asking pagans on this forum to prove to you that they 'have power'? Couple of points with that:

a) Not all pagans work magic. It's a much larger umbrella term than you seem to think. Witches mostly yes, pagans quite probably not.

b) It would be against most Wiccans' ethics to do anything harmful with magic.

c) If I decided to go and do something just to impress an illiterate idiot on an internet forum, my Gods would kick my ass.

The demonstratable use of magick is not today's topic. No-one here claimed to do it or bragged about it. As for "what Starhawk has done" in her life, there are plenty of examples of her making a difference: being at the front of protests, working for women's rights, and generally being an activist over many years. What she has 'accomplished' is not in doubt.

What have YOU accomplished, you irrelevant moron?

Aww, poor little Frank. He thinks he's entitled to an explanation from us of his self-generated stupid ideas *about* us.

Actually, no one said *you* have to believe *anything,* Frank. Go on about your business.... whatever that's supposed to be.

Just doesn't work that way you demand, sport. You've been told.

Off to celebrate Midsummer. :)

Blessed be, all. :)

Concerned the C N L,

Ah, how quickly history is forgotten!

You wrote:

" Sleep well "Bush bashers" because the man has contained the "koranic" fanatics to Baghdad, Iran and Afghanistan."

Until Bush invaded, there were no "koranic fanatics" in Iraq. He imported them and brought them to life. Dr. Frankenstein at work, using your tax dollars.

frank collins:
I have been wathcing this froum for some time now, and never-not once-did you make a worthy contribution-just hate and a lot of BS.U attack every one,exactly because u have nothing else to offer. It would really save every body's time if u just shut up or disappear-u would if u have any sense of shame.

Damme-

I was beginning to think the headmaster had taken away Frank's computer privileges. Sigh...

Again and again and again, it all about the War on Terror. Sleep well "Bush bashers" because the man has contained the "koranic" fanatics to Baghdad, Iran and Afghanistan.

9/11 once, never again!!!!!!

Frank:

You are becoming monotonous and I tire of you. Perhaps if I put out a "Please don't feed the troll" sign and ignore you from here on out, you'll go away.

Midsummer Eve

by Peacepoet Dragonfly

I feel the power of this Midsummer's Eve.
The strength of it fills my soul and being.
Through the woods the fae fly and weave.
What magical folks I am seeing!

The power of the Sun is high in the morrow.
Come, let the rays bathe and warm your spirit!
Let the magic fill you and remove your sorrow.
Let the strength become your own and feel it!

So much magic to see this Eve.
All you have to do is believe!

OK, Anonymous!

Pick a name and go to it! :)

(Personally, I'll observe that a lot of Pagans find the cultural prejudice that it's *somehow ridiculous* to *not* accept-a- name-for- yourself-from-a-limited-selection-
of-words-that-mean-pretty-much-nothing to most...
Pretty ridiculous. So, laugh it up. :) )

Starhawk is a cool name. Off to Berkeley. Let's protest something!!

Let me add my wish for a happy Litha to yours.

May the longest day of the year be filled with blessings for all, and may each be brighter than the one before.

And, hey, Lepi, I think you covered the salient points here.

And, I should say, a happy Midsummer to all. I've actually got to start cooking, here, soon. :)

And, Gary, just what he's done to the judicial branch and separation of powers in terms of a) his war, and b) queer-bashing, not to mention the right to petition the government for redress of grievances, habeas corpus, 'tort reform' which protects corporations from the effects of how they harm people, even if they can afford to sue, umm, war powers, states' rights (unless it serves violation of separation of church and state,) suppression of important science when it's inconvenient to his policies..

...Not to mention the sheer *volume* of 'signing statements' he's put on everything that comes out of Congress claiming that it means exactly what he wants it to mean... further deregulation of the FCC in order to make sure that the information sources to the populace are more and more limited to a few of his corporate cronies...

That's just off the top of my head right now.

WHAT?

What does your opinion of the validity of her (and my) faith have to do with her comments on the immorality of Shrubya's War?

And FYI, we pagans do not think that man is the center of the universe or the pinnacle of creation. In general, we see man as an integral piece of both the creation and the creator (since the one is inseparable from the other), not as God's ruler by proxy.

PriveR, Paganplace, et al, if you would care to expand on my brief description of Paganism 101, please feel free.

Umm... What?

So well-named, you.

You try to characterize our own beliefs in terms of *your* possessions-and-dominion-oriented view of the world.

That's *not what this is, dude.*

Starhawk, with all due respect, is in fairy-land when it comes to what she 'worships'. The only real thing about her: she worships the creation, not the creator. So, realisticly, now wouldnt that be ignorant -- if someone oooo'd and awww'd the toaster, but didnt care didly for the one who designed, created and made an effort to make it. May seem a trite analogy..but when one thinks man or the creation as a whole is the center of the universe..they grossly limit that same universe.
And no, this doesnt imply that we shouldnt take care of what we have...that all toaster owners (humans) should abuse their toasters (earth).

What lies Pags? No one told any. Were they wrong about some things? Yes we always are when we haven't all the info and you never, in the run up to a war, have all the info you'd like.

As for Bush's assault on American civil liberties Name one. Warrantless wire taps? Sorry only applicable to foreign countrys per NSA's charter. If you are calling an Al queada operative overseas you'll hopefully be listened to. Just s if you called a warranted tapped phone in the US your conversation will be overheard not because your phone is tapped but because that of the party you're calling is being tapped.

Brambleton:
The number of Independent reports and organisations who have concluded that the world is LESS safe *because* of the Iraq war are the vast majority. Of the UK ones I know more about there's the ISS in London, who had been pro- the war, and also the Oxford Research Group in April this year.

The experts did tell Cheney this would happen, but he threw out their report and produced a much smaller 100 page one that said we'd win the war fast and get the oil.

Who says you have to be 'leftist' to note we were 'sold' *one* war based on its 'righteousness' based on *lies,* while being called *traitors* for pointing out what you call a 'second separate one' which could really have been the only *result* if we waltzed in there on Bush's "Faith" and the squelching of any 'dissent' even from our own elected representatives?

Personally, I think stridency against Bush's constant assaults on liberty and justice and the American Constitution ...is no vice.

Well you're half right Pags. And so was the admin. The war to remove Sadam did take weeks. We are now into an entirely different war and while it is one that should have been foreseen it was never going to take weeks. That is another problem I have with leftist anti Bush zealots. There tendency to lump two very different wars against two very diffrent entities into one war.

Actually, Brambleton, it was hardly 'close our eyes and ignore Iraq,' under Clinton, ...at least Saddam was successfully *contained,* and we were dealing with someone with a vested interest in stability in that nation: actually there was a growing concern that the sanctions had been too harsh for too long, and that this was causing a generation to grow up in Iraq primed to *hate America for it.*

It was well-known, as the world agreed, that merely *breaking* Saddam's regime would simply plunge the nation into a bloody mess which would be *more* of a haven for terrorists, because there would be no Saddam to consider them a rival, sestabilizing power.

Invading may have been *sold* as 'decisive,' but, that didn't make it in any way *smart.*

Or even legitimate.

Far from being 'free of terror since 9/11, I'd say we've been under *constant* terrorist attack by our own government and media. Who needs bombings when people are *running scared cause of threats of terrorism, anyway?*

What Europe knows about terrorism is, stopping it is a matter of *police work,* not military 'voodoo strategy.'

While it's possible that giving a lot of terrorists Americans to shoot at and bomb in Iraq diverts (and 'trains') some of these folks, this is hardly justice for the Iraqi people, nor does it *actually* make anyone any safer, here.
Particularly not medium-to-long term.

Particularly because if you make war, you make enemies.

Certainly not in the long term if we can't secure our ports, or even deal competently with a Katrina situation cause all the needed stuff (and money) is in Iraq.

Who needs terrorists to kill people, too, if we can't cope with the *weather?*

Doesn't matter what you say, Frank. It's a computer handle. I respond to respect, not threats.

Afraid to let your own fingers do the walking to find out what Starhawk has done? Afraid you'll actually learn something? She's got resources and writings from the front lines on her own website about all of it, and even trains others on activism and stand up for what they believe in.

to Be Realistic:

I agree with you. That's why if we are to stop what's happening we've got to hold this administration's feet to the fire. It's been four years too many. How many folks have to die before someone in authority says 'hey, this isn't working'?

The way to fix something you broke is to buy it and try to repair it, not smash it to pieces.

Starhawk,

You stated, "At home in the U.S., we are less safe." How exactly are you measuring safe? If memory serves, there hasn't been a single terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.

Perhaps we should have continued the "close our eyes and ignore it" policy of President Clinton? Well, that's not fair is it. In response to attacks on the World Trade Center, the U.S. Cole, and the U.S. embassies in Kenya & Tanzania, President Clinton ordered a cruise missile to be fired at a pharmaceutical plant. I guess Obama and the boys didn't get the message.

For some levity:

http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20070517.html

I'm sorry but it would be immoral to leave Iraq at the moment. You have a responsibility to the Iraqi people. You invaded their country and caused chaos - you can't simply leave and wash your hands of the situation.

I am not a supporter of the war, but it's obvious that it is not an option to leave the country in civil war. You must now keep the peace and work to end the problems that you have caused.

Here's the fraud:

" Garyd:

The Administration has repeatedly defined a win as a free and democratic Iraq that can defend itself from agressors internal and external. It is a long slow process but we are getting there as is obvious by the fact that the insurgents are resorting to attacking Mosques and shrines again in the hope of upgrading the level of violence this time it seems it may not work."

Actually, Gary, the 'win' was supposed to take a matter of weeks or months, originally, completely ignoring the fact that Saddam's regime, however bad of itself, *was* the only thing holding that country together, securing its borders, and keeping these sectarian fights and instabilities from happening.

Of course you can't undo that kind of thing overnight, never mind actually end up with something *better,* ..the question is, 'How is this helping and can we do better.'

I wouldn't say it was 'resorting' to blowing up the most sacred Shiite mosque in the country, when the Sunni insurgents *want* a civil war in the face of being outvoted by the Shiites in the new government that Bush apparently thought would be 'just so easy' to put in place, especially after *disbanding the Iraqi army,* (probably about the dumbest move in all of this, apart from leaving 250,000 pounds of high explosive unguarded while they were setting up photo ops to 'celebrate Mission accomplished'*)

...The *fraud* is that they're trying to retroactively justify on different terms from their initial, well, fraud, ...one that proved a disastrously-expensive action against our strategic interests: only Bush's corporate friends are profiting by this, ...not the Iraqi people, and certainly not our security.

The *fraud* was Bush claiming he was told by 'God' that this was a good idea, and how the administration and corporate media painted anyone who warned what would happen as 'unpatriotic' 'Not Supporting The Troops,' 'With the Terrorists' and all the rest.

(If you want to know who's *not supporting the troops,* look to the ones that are *cutting their benefits and care when they get *home,* in order to pay for this misadventure as well as all the corporate no-bid contracts and tax cuts for the wealthy... not to mention the ones who stonewalled the families of Pagan troops who had to *struggle* to get them recognized through *grave markers,* even. )

The continual and insistent failure to see that this was *never* a simple matter of 'good guys and bad guys,' to be literate about the different cultures and ethnicities involved, (in fact, preferring to kick gays out of the military rather than *hear what's going on,* )

...These are the clear frauds.

Starhawk, on the other hand, Frank, is for real. I've seen her work. You just don't get it, any more than you can seem to find it in yourself to get anyone's name straight without these juvenile attempts at insult.

(You may find it a little difficult to be *succesfully* insulting in that manner, Frank: you might well find a Pagan *out there* somewhere going by the name of 'Stardog:' we hardly see anything to be denigrated in canines. :) )

As for your idea someone's a 'fraud' cause magic doesn't work according to the juvenile conception of it which you seem to insist upon, well, that's just ridiculous on the face of it.

Look at the facts presented in the video linked below, and you'll see that a decision about Iraq, based on humanitarian reasons, is most unlikely.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6105

This discussion is useless, because the decision of staying there or leaving is made on economic and energy-political reasons.

And Priver, read also some articles on this page, and you'll understand that the troubles the USA is in, are far greater than you think:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=region®ionId=1

Hey, Frank, how much have YOU put into anything? How about verifying it? AND WHAT HAVE YOU ACCOMPLISHED? Lets see YOUR credentials for judging others.

What’s this talk of “winning” if we hold out longer? Who wins?

A previous post (possibly on here) detailed the current conflicts in Iraq nicely:

1) A struggle over the control of the state between Shia and Sunni, with Kurds involving themselves as potential 'king-makers'. The result of this is a
vicious Shia / Sunni civil war in Baghdad and its environs in which the security institutions of the Iraqi government are involved.

2) A struggle for control over the design of the state, and whether it will be unitary or federal. This is bringing Kurds into direct confrontation with Sunnis and supporters of Muqtada Sadr, and causing conflict between Sadrists and other Shia organizations.

3) A rapidly emerging conflict between Kurds and non-Kurds in Kirkuk, which has every possibility of being mirrored in Mosul.

4) A Sunni / US conflict in the centre and north of the country.

5) A Shia (Sadrist) / US/UK conflict in the centre and south of the country.

6) A Sunni / Sunni conflict in the governorates of Anbar, Nineva and Diyala between tribal forces and those associated with Al-Qaeda and other radical Islamist movements.

7) A conflict caused by the spreading and strengthening of the Islamic State of Iraq in
Baghdad and the Sunni Triangle, including rifts between Al-Qaeda and home-grown Iraqi movements such as Ansar al-Sunna.

8) A Shia / Shia conflict in Najaf and Basra, mainly between Sadrists and Badr forces.

9) We can now add “Previous close allies Sunni/Baathists and Al Qaeda, now possibly fighting each other (unless the Sunni/Baathists were just kidding, and the US will soon be fired upon with the very rocket launchers we just gave them.)”

10) Rampant criminality across the entire country.

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/pdf/research/mep/BPIraq0507.pdf

We're handing security over to "The Iraqis". Who? The majority Shia in the police forces, the ones forming Death Squads? Will that stop the violence?

There’s a quote somewhere from George Bush saying that he “doesn’t believe the different insurgent factions in Iraq will react violently if we invade”. It’s almost funny, but not really.

the USA government is just the puppet of corporations who are the true terrorist. making profit by exploiting human life.

The Administration has repeatedly defined a win as a free and democratic Iraq that can defend itself from agressors internal and external. It is a long slow process but we are getting there as is obvious by the fact that the insurgents are resorting to attacking Mosques and shrines again in the hope of upgrading the level of violence this time it seems it may not work.

Garyd:

"The other problem with your thesis is this. If we win we will go home and the Iraqis will be imeasurably freer to plot out there own individual destinies than they have been ever before.

If the other side wins they will be incompassed in an all consuming religious totaliatarian state that will make the former soviet union seem like a paradise especially if you happen to be a woman."

..Assuming, of course that 'winning' is even possible at this point. The army can't even identify the bad guy here. The administration can't even define what a 'win' would look like at this point. They've changed their minds so many times about why we're even there that the way to tell if they're lying is if their lips are moving. (Ever notice how Bush's lips never move when Cheney or Rove are drinking water?)

Also assuming that the reports from people in the field that say that often times the Iraqi army and the police force are the ones helping us out one minute and then turning around and building roadside bombs are lying too.

Read again. What I said was there needs to be a political solution, not more killing. And yes, we have a responsibility to clean up our own mess. But not by making it worse.

I still don't see the scenario where that'd *help,* GaryD, ....I would hardly call the current situation 'keeping the bully boys off anyone's backs' in the first place, but as someone who was among those pretty much called 'traitors' for saying what they 'stayed the course' with for years *wasn't working* ...I bloody well want to *see* a plan. If it's good, it's good. Fine. But I'm not seeing it.

I think any plan that's workable is going to have to be under *international* auspices, not American ones.

I certainly don't like the idea of the Iraqi people being abandoned to a fate that's *our bloody fault,* but the only plan I hear *now* is, 'We can't leave it as it is now.'

Well, duh.

The question is, 'Will staying do any darn good.'

I disagree. We can't win for them but we can hang in there and keep the bully boys off there backs long enough to give the Iraqi people a fighting chance.

And not even the 9/11 commision found evidence of anuything being trumped up.

Tragic, infuriating situation, really.

As discussed in another thread, I think the only option is for America to admit the mistakes, with profuse apologies, and try to make it worth the international community's while to clean up our mess. I just don't see any scenario presented where our continued presence there can do any darn good.

The pro-war people were warned what would happen, Bush and the neocons thumbed America's nose at the rest of the world, and went ahead and did it, anyway. Perhaps completely disregarding the fact that if the Iraq situation were that damn simple in the first place, it would have been invaded *before* the trumped-up justifications.

Priver that RAnks right up their with among the biggest loads of malarkey I've ever seen in this forum and that currently takes some doing.

We didn't blow up market places that had no soldiers in them. To be sure we went after British soldiers as the opportuntity presented itself and we really did not fight a classical guerilla campaign at all out isde of the deep South Where Francis Marion ran a guerilla campaign of sorts but was far less bloody minded in the doing than Teh so-called insurgent of Iraq were.

The other problem with your thesis is this. If we win we will go home and the Iraqis will be imeasurably freer to plot out there own individual destinies than they have been ever before.

If the other side wins they will be incompassed in an all consuming religious totaliatarian state that will make the former soviet union seem like a paradise especially if you happen to be a woman.

When you've found yourself in a hole, stop digging, right, J?

Merry Meet, Steve. You have summed it up most succinctly. I want the America of my myths back.

Saudi will continue to fund the Sunni forces, because they absolutely will not allow Iraq to be a Shia-controlled front for Iran. Iran will continue to fund and arm the Shia. The Shia police forces will continue to form death squads and hunt the Sunni and Baathists.

This will happen whether the US is there or not.

The only thing all Iraqis agreed on in any votes was that they wanted to keep their own oil, and for the US to leave immediately. Neither of these are being respected - the US was building permanent military bases from day one. Cheney's report said America must own everything "Especially the Oil".

The very, very predictable current situation is entirely the US and UK's fault. Everyone saw it coming. I described it exactly myself 5 years ago.

This was about Saddam playing with the oil price, and PNACs plan to break OPEC - both recorded long before the authorisation was given to go in. *There is no morality in this at all*, and never was.

Bush (well, Cheney. Bush never gets mentioned by the people who matter) was either wilfully incompetent or criminally negligent. Either one is a sacking offence, and probably by this point a war crime.

Bush administration policies are bad they are not giving solutions just digging the ditch deeper

Wiccan,

You're right. It was my post from the first time I posted under here. Just a little updated and revised. Sorta figured I couldn't say it any better than I did before.

I know some folks are incapable of silence. But a girl can hope.. Sad, really, but I suspect the nice Warcraft folks wouldn't want him either. And I wouldn't blame them. ;)

I think that picture comforts a lot of us. Maybe more than we know. At least now people are seeing what was so plainly obvious to the rest of us. That gives me a little bit of hope that whoever gets elected next has GOT to be better than what we've had.

Am I the only one who was even more alarmed by the fact that the only historical figure Bush has ever been curious enough to learn something about is also the only president who ever nuked another country?

Blessed be

Priver-

Frank has nothing to put up but hate, disrespect, and lies, and seems incapable of shutting up. I'm beginning to think he's one of those 17 year old flamers who feels like he's a man when he's nasty to someone that can't "correct him of the error of his ways". Guess we're his diversion when he gets beat in World Of Warcraft.

I agree most heartily with you and Starhawk. Your first post reminded me of your cri de couer when you first posted on this forum. We should have never been in Iraq. And I predict that we won't get out of Iraq until Bush and his neo-cons can blame their failure on the Democrats.

In a just world Bush & Co. would be tried for crimes against humanity and hung when found guilty. Won't happen, but the picture comforts me.

As for Iraq, the Sunnis want us there to protect them from the Shiites they used to bully, the Shiites would like us to kill the Sunnis for them, the "insurgents" just want to kill us, and Cheney and his friends are laughing all the way to the bank. Unfortunately, Iraq is going to be a bloodbath until one faction or the other kills enough of their opponents to take control by force. And America staying in Iraq is not going to make these factions "play nice". It's been a cluster f**k since Bush started it, and it's going to stay that way. And America, my America, is to blame. I liked Starhawk's idea of a day of repentence. But it won't happen in a country where ALL of the Republican candidates for president tried to outdo each other on how much they would use TORTURE! Can you imagine John Wayne torturing someone? Can you imagine Cheney?

My goodness Frank, you're nothing if not predictable. Starhawk is her name, not anything you prefer to call her. And just so you know she is more politically active and has been working her ass off since at least the 1970s to get folks to stop those things you mention. She has consistently put her money, time and energy into finding solutions to huge global problems and has a whole lot of first- hand experience to draw from. She's probably single- handedly done more to help this planet and other people out than a lot of the other panelists on this thread, and posters, most definitely including you.

How about you put up or shut up?

Less,

I have to respectfully disagree. I think what she's saying is what I am saying- that we need to find a political solution and that this mess isn't going to be solved militarily. Did we make this mess? Yes. But the way to solving it isn't to make the mess bigger. Killing only leads to more killing. It's to take responsibility for our own mess and find a political solution, create infrastructure, work on rebuilding, and get the other nations involved in the process too. Nobody, Starhawk least of all, is advocating washing our hands of this. Just about going about it in a different way. How much more intensified does it have to get? We're there now and it's already a civil war over there. As long as we remain there we will be the first targets for any type of violence, sectarian or whatever you choose to call it.

Unfortunately I can't agree with the moralizing of Starhawk. I wish it was so easy to say that the war is immoral and therefore we should leave. But what moral purpose would U.S. departure from Iraq serve? Yes, American troops would not be killed any more and American servicemen would not kill Iraqis any more, but would America's departure put Iraqis in a better position? That is doubtful.

Starhawk puts in a throwaway line about how America's presence exacerbates sectarian division and encourages terrorism, but that is highly debatable. The argument that the American presence in Iraq is fueling sectarian division and sectarian violence is a favorite argument of anti-war activists who don't want to admit that leaving Iraq, though it would mean fewer American casualties and less money spent on the war, would not improve the situation for Iraqis.

On the contrary, there is every indication that a precipitous departure from Iraq would lead to intensified sectarian violence and the involvement of regional power like Iran, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. While many people have presented the argument that American departure = Iranian domination, it is far more likely to fuel a Congo-like scenario. In Lebanon, a balance of power was achieved by the end of the 1980s in which no side could dominate any other but where the battle-lines became relatively stable. In the D.R. Congo, not even a balance of power could be achieved and as a result, while fighting and dying in The Levant declined during the late-1980s, in Congo killing continued at a relatively stable rate. This would be the likely result of a rapid U.S. withdrawal.

Americans still like to believe that they live in a vacuum, that once we have withdrawn from Iraq everything will be fine and that our morality is only governed by our action and not our inaction. But a rapid departure from Iraq serves no moral purpose except that perhaps we will not see the results of our actions on our television screens on a daily basis.

I have been reading these posts for a long time. I want to say that I admire Starhawk and others here for seeing what so many won't. The US won the revolutionary war by doing exactly what the iraqis are doing.. guerilla warfare by people who know their land and will fight to the death to defend their homes.. minus the suicide bombings. It's sorta hard to stand for democracy when you're busy blowing yourself up.

I was as shocked and as afraid as anyone on September 11, I have a sister living around the DC area. I wanted to hurt those of them who hurt us. I was afraid. I'll admit it. I was for the Afghanistan campaign. I remember hearing Bush's speech, just after 9/11 where he said 'we will find and hurt anyone who even thinks about giving them any kind of support'. I started to cry. Hard. What I heard him say that night was that he wanted to beat up the whole world. Simplistic view? Maybe- but it really frightened me nonetheless. My mom said it was just a figure of speech, that he couldn't possibly mean it. It sounded to me like a bully you pull a mean practical joke on who doesn't just shoot you, they beat up your friends, your parents, your teachers, your boss, that guy who gave you a quarter when you needed desperately to call for a ride and even someone who held a door open for you years ago.

I already didn't trust Bush and didn't like the handling of the 'election' but I was honestly ready to put it aside for the good of unifying the country together after the shock of that horrible day. But.. hearing that speech said to me that forcing someone to live the way we think they should isn't democracy at all. If they are really to be democratic, they should want it for themselves. Circumstances on the ground say that that isn't really possible at this point.

What scared me the most of all was the fact that the media is supposed to hold the administration accountable and ask the tough questions. The right calls it the 'liberal media' in the most derogatory sense, but at that time the administration did a very effective job of destroying any opposing voices to the plans for Iraq. There was no media asking those hard questions. I looked around and wondered where they were during this whole time. I'd never seen it before where everyone including newspapers and TV was doing what Bush wanted, and anyone who disagreed was not only unpatriotic, but suspect, often accused or at least maliciouly gossiped about. Much of this reminds me of reading about the way things had been conducted during the McCarthy era. Also having read about 'cult' mentality and how they silence opposition and real, honest questioning.

While we as a nation were ready to turn in our neighbors just for being different, pointing all kinds of fingers at each other, it gave the government the opportunity to run roughshod over the Constitution and do everything to take power away from the other branches of government. They did and are still counting on the fact that we will be so preoccupied with name calling and accusations flying that we won't stop to notice what they're doing next. The effects of this are still being seen on this and other threads. Meanwhile, the people that are really responsible for what happened that day are nowhere in sight. Thankfully people are beginning to wake up. It's not too late.

I cannot watch Bush on TV. I couldn't before, but it's worse now. I feel that it might be likely that I'd break my TV. That's why I like the Daily Show, Because it lets me know that I'm not alone and others can see what I do. Because if I don't laugh at it, I will cry at what's happened to this country.

We have seen firsthand what manipulation of our emotions does to our precious country. Fear creates division. To be honest, I miss those days where I really didn't care too much about politics, because I figured that they would look out for us no matter who was in charge. If they seemed like decent enough people who were willing to listen to all sides to find a solution, I was Ok to let them do whatever. We'd root out the worst folks, but that most people were trying to help those they served. But we've seen what happens when complacency overrides common sense.

I will not respond to personal attacks on myself for being a thinking person who is fighting desperately to get back the country I love. Do I have the answer? No. But nobody does. The Dems in Congress are in the worst position. Having to dig out of what the Republican Congress and president created but not knowing what else to do. The American people are screaming for the government's heads on a platter (and I don't blame them!) but Congress refuses to consider the fact that maybe the first step to healing is to hold those responsible for this mess accountable for their actions. It's a classic catch-22. The Republicans are just waiting to pounce. What alarms me is that 68% of Republicans in this country don't believe what scientific evidence proves about how this world works. This president is no different that guy who is caught by his wife in bed with two other women and says to her 'you gonna believe what you see or what i tell you to?' People who don't believe what evidence clearly tells them about what is going on on the ground are not qualified to lead this country. Period.

Personally I do believe that those who joined the army because they wanted to defend my right to be free- that's the noblest thing I can think of, to die for what you believe. The troops deserve our support for that reason if nothing else. From what I've read, however, there is about a 50-50 split from soldiers themselves. Some joined for that reason, others may have joined for the financial incentives, others as a way to get into college who may not have had a chance before. Many soldiers think we're doing the right thing, and more are feeling comfortable enough to say that they don't agree with this war. There is no viable definition of victory at this point. The army itself is recycling people because they don't have enough new recruited, well trained people. How is constant exposure to the horrors that Iraq shows to these forces, many of whom used to be naive kids sitting at home playing video games, going to produce people capable of doing what is needed? We are no safer than we ever were.

We've angered the international community, sullied our reputation as a moral leader, not to mention the new terrorists that will come up with more creative ways to hurt us. When is it enough? How many more lives- American AND Iraqi? Iranian? When the troops do come home, what kind of life will they be coming to? Will they also be persecuted for feeling the need to speak out against this if they feel compelled to do so? Life is too precious to throw away on a needless war that has no discernible purpose.

But I do feel this- The lying our way into Iraq, the signing statements Bush tacked onto laws passed (I don't know the exact count but it's in the thousands, more than all the other presidents in US history COMBINED) where he signs a bill with stipulations on how he will or won't follow it, Katrina, the unchecked powers arbitrarily given, refusal to admit mistakes, torture, are just a few of the SO many reasons I think this president, and vice president, both need to be held accountable. NOW. I know impeachment is officially 'off the table', but a girl can hope. I can think of no other time that it is as vital as right now. Say what you will about Clinton. I think he's a bit of a slime as a human, but he was a president who thought things through, sought out others opinions, and made choices, sometimes with good results, sometimes with bad ones. Can we honestly say that about this president?

There was a story that ran awhile back about how frustrating it is for the forces to train Iraqis. One person said that many Iraqi troops believe that 'if Allah wills it, the bullet will find its mark', which makes it much harder to stress the need for training. How is throwing more of our lives into the fire going to compete with that in addition to everything else going wrong there?

We as Americans have to look past each other's fears and frustration and get to the heart of what people are saying. Many of the people are beginning to realize how much they've been deceived. I can understand the Republican's fear, but I can also understand and relate to the Democrats' anger and frustration at being left out of such an important discussion for too long. I suspect the only reason they're getting more of a chance to say something is because they retook the Congress.

Asking someone to leave the US because they 'don't like it' is too easy, a cop-out and absolves anyone of actually having to make their voices heard. To do the work of forcing the other side to be considered. That is the only way we can move forward and stop this before it destroys whatever credibility we have left. Just war? WWII was justified. Iraq? Not a chance. I am not totally against war to bring people who murder innocents to justice, but ONLY AFTER EVERY OTHER POSSIBLE OPTION has been used. I am against THIS war in Iraq. Have been from day one. This requires a political solution. Not more violence.

Lest we forget- WE are the ones responsible for putting Hussein in power. WE did that during Reagan. It's one thing to say 'we're removing a dictator who did horrible things'.. but it's the ultimate in hypocrisy to say that we have some sort of moral authority to justify removing someone that WOULDN'T have been there in the first place IF IT WASN'T FOR US.

There was a song written by a canadian group called Moxy Fruvous that explains it better than I can. They're not together anymore to my knowledge and this song was written for the first Gulf War, but I can't think of a more appropriate time to use it.

Gulf War song:
We got a call to write a song about the war in the Gulf,
But we shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings.
So we tried, and gave up, cuz there was no such song,
But the trying was very revealing:

What makes a person so poisonous righteous,
That they'd think less of anyone, who just disagrees?
She's just a pacifist, he's just a patriot.
If I said you were crazy, would you have to fight me?

Fighters for liberty,
Fighters for power,
Fighters for longer turns in the shower.

Don't tell me I can't fight 'cause I'll punch out your lights
And history seems to agree
That I would fight you for me.

So we read, and we watched
All the specially selected news,
And we learned so much more about the good guys.

"Won't you stand by the flag?"
Was the question unasked,
"Won't you join in and fight with the allies?"

What could we say? We're only 25 years old,
With 25 sweet summers, and hot fires in the cold.
This kind of life makes that violence unthinkable.
We'd like to play hockey, have kids and grow old.

Fighters for Texaco,
Fighters for power,
Fighters for longer turns in the shower.

Don't tell me I can't fight 'cause I'll punch out your lights,
And history seems to agree
That I would fight you for me,
That us would fight them for we.

He's just a peacenik,
And she's just a war-hawk.
That's where the beach was,
That's where the sea.

What could we say? We're only 25 years old,
And history seems to agree that I would fight you for me,
That us would fight them for we.
Is that how it always will be?

I apologize for the length of this, but this has been 7 years in the build-up. It feels good to purge and I hope someone will take this in the spirit it's intended. Real, honest, RESPECTFUL discourse. What this all boils down to is- I miss my country.