Time to Become Pre-Emptive Peacemakers

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Hello, nice site :)

Hello, nice site :)

Development in understanding,then such bringing experience to follow (never truly that anything deliberely witheld,rather being vital as a must that all balanced as match capability of brain, not so,then remains chaos.The Universe created that it sustain the human form,though the brain, heart cometh our understanding as experience,it vital that understanding experience,be balanced. Understanding lacking experience has potential of a raving lunatic, as experience when void of understanding an madman.The point being in human development,it vital there balance,if humanity achieving further spiritual development,further learning,enabling our progress.We see at present the tragic results,where abuse in understanding as experience in wordly matters,if such taken in spiritual development,the result for humanity be fatal,hence,the retaining of balance, important.

sylvia-funny thing, i saw you on the ayaan board, and i can never post on there - its too slow somehow-

on this onfaith blog- there is a woman named pamela taylor-
she is an imam (similar i guess to an islamic reverend) and extremely knowledgeable about islam.

you have to wade through some very hateful islamophobic bigotry sometimes-

it is the only sanctioned hatred in america these days-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/archives.html

maybe you could look through some of her posts-

peace

happy to have come on this web siteas i am interested
in p
spirtual matters and spirtual growth and at the age that i have a lot of question,the fundamental

christian teachings do not make a lot of sence anymore, and i have a real longing find faith and love. thanks,sylvia

happy to have come on this web siteas i am interested
in p
spirtual matters and spirtual growth and at the age that i have a lot of question,the fundamental

christian teachings do not make a lot of sence anymore, and i have a real longing find faith and love. thanks,sylvia

happy to have come on this web siteas i am interested
in p
spirtual matters and spirtual growth and at the age that i have a lot of question,the fundamental

christian teachings do not make a lot of sence anymore, and i have a real longing find faith and love. thanks,sylvia

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

i take it as a media driven and convenient lie dark jedi-

do you believe everything the paper says about pagans?

i read the qu'ran every day- and it does not say that.
it says, there is no compulsion in religion.

victoria???? did you not read papers or such, the goal of the taliban and a quaida is a muslim world,,,, there own koran says to convert all either with or with out the sword...how do you take it?

thats fine dark jedi- no one is trying to make you a muslim, least of all me- there is no compulsion in the religion of islam.

First am a Celtic Pagan....
If you want PEACE,,,you prepare for WAR, chinese perfect this in there book Art Of War,
Bin Laudin said it perfectly....convert to Islam, that is the Muslin Goal,, a Muslin/Sharia Law world, I am a PAGAN, I WiLL NEVER TURN Muslim.
I live in the greatest country in the world, and have friends in Iraq, and They believe in what there doin, and I will back them, this stuff about turnin bases in to other things,,,, then the end times will be on us, no question,

TIL man looses his lust of BLOOD,,,,then we will still have WAR,

Sure all this talk of peace is fine, til you actually get ALL the parties Talkin and doin. thats all it is ""TALK""....

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

peace

Starhawk, merry meet!

There was a number of us peaceseaking pagans this weekend in DC! And I am proud to say amongst those that jumped the wall. The disobediant peacemakers are a wonderful bunch of veterans (like me), maidens, mothers and crones abound, peacemakers from every walk of life. My hope for us has been raised some, if only for me, you wont see it on the news but you will at YouTube, the peoples eyes. Keep an eye out there are many gatherings to build our energy for peace and healing. Bright Blessing.

Funny what comes up after someone derisively calls the Pagan thread a 'love fest.'

Hrm.

I think one thing chickenhawks just don't understand is how ultimately-empty aggression is... There's a romanticization of violence and bloodshed that some people don't understand.

Again people bring up homophobia and their desire to 'offend' the Muslim world as a reason to *not* confront the real challenge behind all this.

Can't say I never thought offending people who were too secure in their sensibilities, however nasty those sensibilities were in practice, wasn't a good idea... but.
That's not what this is about, for you, is it, really, Bill C?

Really ready to be offended, yourself?

The Muslim world is outraged... again. And my stars!... the last country containing containing artists with the balls to dare offend them is Sweden. And now, as if burning embassies, rioting, murder, and vicious threats of violence weren't sufficient displays of arrogance, a dispatch of ambassadors from Muslim countries is demanding that Sweden enact laws to protect them from offense. They suggest something along the lines of, "the protection enjoyed by Jews and homosexuals," which is entirely appropriate as this happens to be nothing.

Hopefully the Swedish authorities will channel Teresa Heinz and tell them to "shove it" but I am not hopeful. The entirety of this episode could be solved by telling these representatives that in a democracy a government has no responsibility to police the thoughts expressed in its nation's privately owned publications but such principles seem to be derogated when the offended group has utterly no comprehension of or respect (something they feel due to themselves) for the concept of free speech, and as such have no comprehension of why in such a society blasphemy is not a crime.

But alas, as we are unceasingly reminded, we must respect people of faith. And in that spirit of respect the Swedish Prime Minister has agreed to meet with Muslims to discuss the criminalization of satirizing Islam. One would be tempted to think this a quite insidious threat to a free press, but this concern has escaped the Muslim representatives, and their proclamations that "work needs to be done," "comprehensive measures are needed," and that "students should be taught to express themselves in ways that don't cause offense or hurt." If their is anything I hold dear it is the freedom to say anything I desire about their illiterate, epileptic, and sanguinary prophet but I along with the people of Sweden will undoubtedly find it in ourselves to refrain from rioting and arson in the face of this utterly castrating arrogance.

I don't know how any sane reader can see this as anything but a direct demand that free speech be abridged. Whether the cartoon is compatible with the perceived journalistic responsibility of the newspaper is irrelevant as a private newspaper has the right to publish anything it pleases, and yes this includes a right to insult. Liberals, Conservatives, gays, and Jews are not protected from offense and the fact that blasphemy is not a crime is indicative of nothing more than the fact that we are not a theocracy- a form of government so natural to them that they have no comprehension of how a people could value a system of government when they don't believe the creator of the universe endorses it.

Is there any way to express this to them? Is there any way to convince them that if they want to end criticism of their religion it is to argue against it or reform? No there isn't and it is stupid to try. This is a threat equal to the threat of terrorism which underlies all their paroxysms of outrage, and it seeks to undo everything that is worth saving in our culture.

The Algerian ambassador called his meeting with the Swedish PM "was an excellent initiative taken in a spirit of appeasement." They're not even trying to hide the creepy historical parallels anymore.

http://draggedfromthebottom.blogspot.com/

http://draggedfromthebottom.blogspot.com/

http://draggedfromthebottom.blogspot.com/

Don't miss the articles on the front page her at the WPost;
under the heading "More non believers speaking out".

Very encouraging reading.Keep it up non believers

everywhere.Just keep on making sense.

This conundrum CAN be resolved... quickly... easily... economically... once and for all.

My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy. WARNING: This will not be pretty... but the world will be a much better place for it.

My only regret in this is that I cannot think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem to dismantle Christianity... but, oh well... one thing at a time. One only does what one can.

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

unfortunatly, we as a nation have been at war with one faction or another from its creation--peace will be a hard lesson to learn for us!

Michael... 'Tis unfortunate that you misinterpreted my comment about not taking up arms against an ancient culture that has BEEN decieved by political machines (be it US or their own politicians). Our country has been the peacekeepers in many countries since WWII and I see honour in that position. However, the US, having stepped into the fray...NAY, having POSTULATED a US position into the culture of Iraq based on questionable truths...NOW has an obligatory role in helping clean up the mess the US helped CREATE in that country.I petition the Goddess every day for my nephew and his comrades in Iraq to help them swiftly and justly complete their mission to bring peace and bring them home.
Iraq has a culture that is ANCIENT BEYOND what we here in the US have experienced as religious freedom in the short time we have existed as a unified land. Have you no concept of what that means? The Mideast (in it's entirety) has religious and cultural differences that our country will never be able to resolve for them ...it is not because we fail to understand the cruelities of humanity in such countries...but we fail to understand that not all peoples want what WE think they want. In the meantime, we have a country suffering significant issues right here at home. We have people suffering, starving, dying, homeless, frightened, escalated violence, ....Dude, charity begins at home. If you can't tend to the issues in your own house..well, then what do you have to offer in wisdom for the rest of your kin, the rest of your community, your state , your country.....Iraq ??????? Man...how many people in our country actually feed a family in the ghetto? Opened their home to strangers? Are fostering abused kids? How many of us help support old people who have been taxed out of their live's work? I guess the Spirit(s) moves some to decry the conditions of the world...and others are given the burden of their neighbors. Each has their place and their path. Peace be unto you and yours.

"Are not the people of Iraq just as worthy of defense as your town and family? Or should we simply stand idly by as they face horrors and violence (and I'm speaking about before the US got there as well) because they are not, somehow, worthy?"

Just cause someone's worthy of a better life doesn't mean it's a good idea to wander into their messed-up situation throwing shots.

If it were that easy, why didn't a Republican Congress have us go do something about it *before* having a Republican president illegally make war?

Heck, why'd Rummy give Saddam the gas bombs and shake his hand with a big grin on his face, then tell us he was 'sure' Saddam had WMDs even if they'd deteriorated past such use a decade before?

"The Kurds, for the first time in the memory of anyone living today, are able to live without fear of being bombed by neighbor countries or gassed by their own,"

Sounds to me that's cause they got nowhere to go at all...

Actually, the situation is Turkey's all a sudden not acting with NATO cause a Kurdistan would take major territory from their control, and just about everyone *but* the Kurds (that the Sunni and Shiites *still* don't like any more than they did before) are *armed to the teeth with no centralized control*

If the Kurds are so happy, why aren't *they* behind Bush's invasion?

Barena:
"I love my town and my family and friends. Would I take up arms to defend them?"

Are not the people of Iraq just as worthy of defense as your town and family? Or should we simply stand idly by as they face horrors and violence (and I'm speaking about before the US got there as well) because they are not, somehow, worthy?

The Kurds, for the first time in the memory of anyone living today, are able to live without fear of being bombed by neighbor countries or gassed by their own, are able to participate in their own government, and can decide for themselves how to live, worship, and love. Isn’t that what we want for everyone? Why are they worth less than those who live closer to you? In our global community, are they not our neighbors too?

Maybe you don't quite remember that *after 9/11, the whole *world* was behind us. just a couple years of lies and disregard and disrespect for what the rest of the world, including half of America, had to say, later, guess what. Someone played 'Faith-based' *cowboy* and screwed it up.

Now's not the time to be saying those of us who were for peace all along have some kind of extreme flaw in our thinking, especially when the only words a home invader in *my* house would hear would be *Wrong Mother-loving house, bub." before I *did* subdue and call police.

The fact that that tends to happen, especially if we've had experience who decided their 'morally superior' rules don't apply to you if you aren't of the same Abrahamic religion, ...doesn't mean that being an idiot about foreign policy, especially *after* you overextended the military to the point we took more casualties from a storm at home than on 9/11...

Well, no place to be making extreme cases against 'passivism.'

Better to look how, and if, to wield that big stick we collectively have.

Dude. The most of us have swords, if not guns where local culture makes it necessary.

This doesn't mean we think violence solves anything.

Least of all when people wielding violence are being stupid about it.

You may find that vicarious violence wielded for you by people who were roped into doing it by people who can't tell you the truth is similarly-ineffective.

Pacifism and passivism are actually quite different.

I could sing you a lot of Irish stories where over-romancing violence'll get you,but it seems a lesson lost.

Saying, 'Use of force is good' certainly is no way to think when you already *spent* your force on some ill-advised 'crusade.'

Guess what. Card played. Thanks to people saying, 'You think this is stupid?' Wusses!' ...we no longer have that card to play.

You're a little late.

Welcome to it.

Boy this page is a real love fest!!! How refreshing! It's as refreshing as a good purging puke after a beer-binge!
Just kidding... I think it's sweet...

To go back to the "We should be be more like Nepal" comment earlier.....
No thanks. Those people, not just their leaders, have been and are being violently and methodically trodden down into submission. They have been and are being murdered for their passive refusal to submit to a despot. They do not live in tranquil, blissful peace, they just don't fight back. There's a HUGE difference. Passivism is absolutely wonderful in theory and fantasy, but there are always some, and it only takes one really, to abuse the good nature of others. For instance, why not post; "I would never fight back, even if someone broke into my house and stole all my stuff, nor would i call the gun-wielding policemen to chase anyone down and prosecute them for me...... " Yes, it would be sweet and grand in that eutopia-ville. But you don't live there, and you won't be moving there either in this lifetime. The peaceful sleep you enjoy, the security of your neighborhood and home, is possible only because there are people, macho, masculine armed people, hunting down bad guys and putting them away. I wish it could be different as well, but turning military bases into schools and bakeries, turining police stations into museums and hydroponic gardens, and soldiers and cops into interpretive dancers in this lifetime cupcake, is just plain irrational. First all the bad guys have to be good, or go away... We can wish it, and hope for it, but to lay back, close our eyes and just expect that it can or will happen simply because WE have pure hearts is very, very sad.

Can't help but imagine what this kind of board would be like if it was full of people 'singing' to each other instead of trying to 'prove' how it was divinely-inspired to hurt people, though.

That's the sad part.

Clearly a bird guy. :)

This is still a fave of mine: (singing along, ie, adding format, for those about who still think 'Pagans got no religion,' or 'Pagans worship statues,' ....maybe you know this kind of sentiment. :)

Church Not Made With Hands

"Bye, bye shadowlands
The term is over
And all the holidays have begun

Now She walks in fresh fields;
Her tracks are on the Land,
She is everywhere and noplace...

When it's dark and evening falls,
She moves among men
They would seek to have Her as a prize
But She is in the shadows
The ocean and the sands,
She is everywhere and noplace

Her church not made with hands..

Not contained by man

She is dancing high as clouds
Faster than the arrow
Straight as any crow that flies
Across great seas She travels
Up through rising lands
She is everywhere and noplace
Her church not made with hands. "

Good thing to sing. :)

PP..I love The Waterboys!

Whole Of The Moon
I pictured a rainbow you held it in your hands I had flashes but you saw the plan I wandered out in the world for years while you just stayed in
your room I saw the crescent you saw the whole of the moon you were there in
the turnstiles with the wind at your heels you stretched for the stars and you
know how it feels to reach too high too far too soon you saw the whole of the
moon
I was grounded while you filled the skies I was dumbfounded by truth you
cut through lies I saw the rain dirty valley you saw Brigadoon
I saw the crescent you saw the whole of the moon I spoke about wings you just flew I
wondered I guessed and I tried you just knew I sighed ...but you swooned!
I saw the crescent you saw the whole of the moon with a torch in your pocket and the
wind at your heels you climbed on the ladder and you know how it feels to get
too high too far too soon you saw the whole of the moon the whole of the moon!
Unicorns and cannonballs palaces and piers trumpets towers and tenements wide
oceans full of tears flags rags ferryboats scimitars and scarves every precious
dream and vision underneath the stars you climbed on the ladder with the wind
in your sails you came like comet blazing your trail too high too far too soon
you saw the whole of the moon

Church Not Made With Hands

bye bye shadowlands the term is over and all the holidays have begun now she
walks on fresh fields her tracks are on the land she is everywhere and noplace
when its dark and evening falls she moves among men they would seek to have her
as a prize but she is in the shadows, ocean and the sand, she is everywhere and
noplace, her church not made with hands not contained by man she dancing high as
clouds faster than the arrow straight as any crow that flies across great seas
she travels up through rising lands she is everywhere and noplace her church
not made with hands isn't that a pretty sun setting in a pretty sky? will we
stay and watch it darken the church not made with hands not contained by man
that precious place unmade by man.

-
I love Spiral Rythym...they have some booty shakin drummin also.
Freedom
(Christian Williamson 1997)
I can no more be bound than the hawk in flight.
And I am the fires that burn in the night.
And I am the shaking and quaking of the earth.
And I am the water of the world’s rebirth.
I am freedom,
I am freedom,
I am freedom,
I am freedom.

I am no more contained that the waves on the sea.
I cannot be chained because I must be free.
And I am the fire that burns in all things.
The bell that tolls with freedom’s call,
shake when you hear me ring.
I am freedom,
I am freedom,
I am freedom,
I am freedom.
---
Why do You Call?
(Christian Williamson 1997)

Why do you call me into the sky?
Why do I hear you sing?
Why do you tell me it’s time to fly?
I’m not yet ready to take wing.

Chorus:

And why, why, why do I fly?
Why do I soar to the sun?
I’ve places to be, and people to see,
And tasks I have not yet begun.
Why, why, why do I fly?
Why do I soar to the sun?
I cannot start to take my heart
Away from anyone.

Why do you call me into the fire?
Why does it crackle my name?
Why do you fill me with this desire,
To join you and dance in the flame?

Chorus:

Why do you call me into the water?
Why call me into the sea?
I’ve not yet finished raising my children,
There are lessons yet set for me.

Chorus:

Why do you call me into the earth,
Down where the roots all go?
I’m not yet ready for my next birth,
I’m not yet ready to go.

Chorus:

terra

Ah, you're still here. :)

Pagan music I really like is hard for me to find, ..too often too much *about* being Pagan to really suit all occasions, (maybe it's like Christian Rock.) but that's OK. :)

One reason I wish there was more stuff like the Waterboys, ...generally infused with Pagan themes and worldview, but rarely *really* *deliberately* about it. (heck, this screen name is from a Waterboys song that had been playing when I first posted here and needed a name, apropos of nothing-in-particular. :) )

Beauty of it is, people sing enough, and sooner or later it's about the Lady, never mind other things. I always found my 'hymns' where I found em. :)

I mean, speaking of the Awen, how could it not be so? ;)

I've heard lots of good Pagan music.... Best in person... But I look *forward* to what we'll see when we're more open about life. :)

Fun sport to try and pick out what more-mainstream artists got it.. :)

Course, I think some of the *best* hymns are about singing to the Gods what life's like on Earth. No shortage of material there. :)

Oh dern! I did it again...that post up ↑ there is mine.

terra

PP...
It would be awesome to meet you...I like vacationing where there are mountains...living in Louisiana where it is so flat I yern for the montains and the mounatin air.

I love Pagan music and poetry...I think they are our prayers. Being on a mounatintop for the Gathering brought to mind this song..

Song of Awen
(words & music by Damh the Bard)

See me as the Sun on the mountaintop,
Feel me in the power of the seas.
Hear me in the laughter of the stream,
Power of nature, power of the trees.

Climb
It is you who are broken,
You are part of me,
Some of you have awoken,
But others might never be free.

This is my song, this is my voice,
These are my words, this is my choice.
Hear me now, take heed of my words.
Love me now, and your spirit will fly.

Hear me in the howling of the wolf,
My voice is the song of the Bards,
I am the power that helps the salmon leap,
I am the very first breath of a child.

I am the wild, and I am the tame,
I am the calm and I am the storm.
I am the sound of your beating heart,
I am your blood and I am your bone.

Climb
It is you who are broken,
You are part of me,
There is no seperation,
So dance, sing and be free.

copyright 2002 Damh the Bard

Well, Ki-Jana, superior firepower does not bring peace if you *think* with it.

Superior firepower in the hands of people lacking skill and right intent, in fact, doesn't bring peace.

As we can see, it brings asymmetrical warfare.

And, on a brighter note,

Hi, Terra, and all... Been a tad busy, myself this week, and, well, kind of fell directly out of the mood to talk about 9/11: bit too emotional a subject for me at times.

And, Terra, ...Gods, I haven't heard that song in *years and years.* :)

Wouldn't mind meeting you there at all. Know some good folks in WVa.

Anyway, be glad you missed that, JJ was on a tear against gays and somehow everyone but Jews and Mormons. :)

Geez, what world do you people live in? Starhawk for president? No offense, but that's just idiotic.

World peace & love is not a new concept. I would imagine most people try their best to follow that ideology. But the world simply is not structured like that. If you turned all U.S. military installations into "schools and museums", you could kiss your religious and every other freedom good-bye as we would be overrun by foreign countries.

First . . . Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, comes in to our house and pushes us around.

Second . . Peace - through superior firepower.

After 2000 years, Now you want to be peacemakers?

Your time is over. Now is the time of the Gnostic Christ, the True Christ. Yeheshua.

If you want peace, its time to tell the Demiurge that you offer no more human sacrifices on the battle field.

Starhawk,
I have a nephew in Iraq..he has been there a couple times. It is very difficult when you have someone over there to make staements that seem to undermine what these poor boys THINK they are doing for our country as patriots. I remember very well my relatives and friends that came back from Vietnam to horrendous treatment from their peers and countrymen. I fear for the soldiers who return to a population that punishes them personally for the horrors of war ...because the "at home" population feels powerless to confront the political machine that has foisted this atrocity upon the people of this land. I love my country. I love my town and my family and friends. Would I take up arms to defend them? You bet. Would I take up arms to force an ancient culture to destroy it's
heritage under the falsehoods that our political leaders have fed to the people? Never. Remember
Rome....the great democracy fell mainly due to the complacency of the people who fed on the misrepresented facts of that ancient political machine....as it's idealism fell in accordance to it's greed, apathy and desire for power. Such was the fall of Rome. They say history repeats itself. How sad our apathetic masses, how deceitful our corrupted leaders....how tragic for our boys in uniform. And what will you all say to the boy who comes home ...frightened of his own capacity to harm not only others...but himself? Sleeping with dreams of horror that only soldiers can understand? Changed by an evil that only men can create. What say you?

"if we respond to violence with violence, if we use our own grief and wounds and fear as an excuse to unleash the horrors of war on others, if we are complacent about sacrificing the innocent civilians of other nations in payment for our own, then we have abandoned the moral high ground."

Here, Here! Well written, well thought, well taught.

Peter Kreeft, a famous Christian apologist, repeatedly points out that the Pagans and the Christians have much moral ground in common. You have just proven his point. I like your theology better than Bishop John Bryson Chane's.

Thank you for your thoughtful essay.

Paganplace:

"If you think Ayn Rand had the right kind of idea....
Don't think you'll see hir ideas in anyone that talks like it."

I don't know what that means. It doesn't quite seem to be English.

"Guess what. You can say many things with the same rhetoric, and it ain't what she had in mind."

I don't quite know what that means either, but I've retired to the archive and blown off a dusty volume, and I find this:

"If men want to oppose war, it is _statism_ that they must oppose. So long as they hold the tribal notion that the individual is sacrificial fodder for the collective, that some men have the right to rule others by force, and that some (any) alleged "good" can justify it--there can be no peace _within_ a nation and no peace among nations." --Ayn Rand, _Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal_, quoted in _The Ayn Rand Lexicon._

What do you suppose that means?

(That's not the original quote I had in mind, but if I can find CUI, I will get it for you. But not tonight.)

Welcome back, Starhawk!

You've certainly been missed around here..
and once again, you speak truth and compassion- which is something a lot of people need to hear.

Blessed be!

Thanks Lepi,

I look forward to it.

And I am not driving so the journey should be unadventful. ; )

Blessings,
terra

Hi PP:

"Hi, Gaby! Sorry yer prophet started frothing nast, back there. Occupational hazard, it seems. :)"

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. I was gone for a couple of weeks and haven't had a chance to catch up yet.

Welcome back, and merry meet, Starhawk!

**And I’d like to remind all of us, here in the U.S., that if we respond to violence with violence, if we use our own grief and wounds and fear as an excuse to unleash the horrors of war on others, if we are complacent about sacrificing the innocent civilians of other nations in payment for our own, then we have abandoned the moral high ground. If we let fear open our ears to lies, if we stop questioning and seeking truth and demanding accountability from those in power, we contribute to horrific acts of death and destruction. Retaliation and revenge have a grim logic of their own, that can never be satisfied by more of the same, and can never bring us true security.**

As both a Pagan and a Unitarian, I could not agree more. It's what I have endeavored to teach my child from the time she was small, and it's one of the many factors that influence my choice of buttons to push in the voting booth.

Terra, travel safely. When you get back, I owe you a lunch date.

Thank you for saying in such a public forum what I want to say every day to everyone I meet. I manage to get it in sometimes but I ache to hear it in a bigger forum.

Very nice!

I'm gonna send a copy of this to several of my friends.

People say we must prepare for war to have peace. That's not entirely so. Look at Nepal. Yes, they are a government in exile, but that's only because another country went in and bossed them around. If all countries would follow their example, there'd be no need for war preparations.

I once attended a technical training school on what was once an Army-air force base. I'd like to see the day all bases are turned into schools and museums.

Thank you.

Hi PP...Nice having Starhawk back home umm? How you doin sis?

I am going to be away for a week..Group gathering for Harvest Home...15-26. Going to be doin the Happy Pagan in West Virginia...

I Will Meet You There
Jen Smith and Tamara James

Run my God
To the woods and the mountains
Li-de-de-li-li-li

Take Your Lady
To the streams and the fountains
Li-de-de-li-li-li

For the city chokes
In the factory smoke
And the pavement's hard and bare
So make Your way
To the woodland glade
And I will meet You there

Singing, Li-Li...

The city parks
Have streams and pathways
Li-de-de-li-li-li

But the paths are paved
And dead are the waterways
Li-de-de-li-li-li

And the people there
All stop and stare
As I stand with robe and blade
And they never see
When they look at me
And the Circle I have made

Singing Li-Li...

I will build a temple
And set an altar
Li-de-de-li-li-li

With smoke and fire
And sand and water
LI-de-de-li-li-li

Though the room's not wide
And the streets outside
And the plastered walls are bare
It will be as glade
And forest shade
And I will meet You there

Singing Li-Li...
-
Can you tell I am a very happy Pagan?
Goddess Bless,
terra

Welcome back, Starhawk!

You have certainly been missed in these parts..
and you're absolutely right. We need to BE the change we want to see in the world.

Blessed be.

Hi, Terra:

Another bit of advice for someone:

If you think Ayn Rand had the right kind of idea....
Don't think you'll see hir ideas in anyone that talks like it.

Guess what. You can say many things with the same rhetoric, and it ain't what she had in mind.

Godfrey,
What do we do about it?
Teach folks that we are in charge of the future. Our grandchildren will live the life we give them.

What we do to others we do to ourselves.
Might is not right.
We have one Earth.
Animals do not s^&t where they sleep.
Fate is a boomerrang.
Once the toothpaste is out of the tube you can not put it back.
Make sure before you get into a mess, you can get out of it.
Don't hire anyone for president whose only qualification is being someone you want to have a beer with.

terra

terra

I certainly agree that it's time to address the cause of war. But what is the cause of war? You can't fix anything until you're very clear on cause and effect.

I believe it was Ayn Rand who once said the cause of war is the idea that it's OK to take what you want by force.

I think that's very close to the truth.

Now.

What do we do about it?

You speak truth in a world of lies, Starhawk. "War for Peace" is simply a disguise to kill those who don't agree with the "right" religion to some. Why can't the zelots of all religions, including our own, see their is beauty AND negativity in every religion?? The Yin and Yang, the good and bad, they must go together for life to exist, and so they must exist in our religions as well. Why can we not see this??

We missed you, Starhawk. Can you tell? :-)

You have coined a wonderful phrase: pre-emptive peacemakers. If America had held to the values stated in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution, we would have never lost the moral high ground. It is past time we admit to what we did wrong, make what amends we can, then hold ourselves and all nations to those values. Easy? No. Achievable? Yes. America must become the nation of her myths.

Did we mention we missed you?

You speak truth in a world of lies, Starhawk. "War for Peace" is simply a disguise to kill those who don't agree with the "right" religion to some. Why can't the zelots of all religions, including our own, see their is beauty AND negativity in every religion?? The Yin and Yang, the good and bad, they must go together for life to exist, and so they must exist in our religions as well. Why can we not see this??

Hi, Gaby! Sorry yer prophet started frothing nast, back there. Occupational hazard, it seems. :)

Think he's mellowing out. Maybe. :)

Welcome back, Starhawk!

I have missed you! Your compassion shines through in your articles and essays and I admire you greatly!

Let us hope that your words are read and heeded by those who need to see them most.

Blessed be!

So say we all, Starhawk. :)

('we' to be defined later.)

Some folks kinda need that. :)

Welcome back Starhawk, and thanks for a post that really embraces the spirit that's needed today. It's nice to see a message that's so openly inclusive and tolerant of other faiths, I was beginning to forget what they looked like around here.

>>"If we want peace and security, we must address the causes of war."

Oh man, you couldn't even post that sentence on some of the Conservative US forums on the net. (It's true of course.)

Welcome back, Starhawk!

The one thing I would like to say to religious extremists of all stripes - Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Pagan, etc. is that there is no one "right way". Our way of life is slipping away, and imposing your religion on other groups is not the answer. We need to find our common humanity, and work for the preservation of life on this fragile Earth, no matter what our religious paths may be.

OOOOps! That was my comment...Up there ↑

terra

Welcome back Starhawk...Greetings and Merry Meet!

You have been missed, we Pagans have missed our spokesperson..and our little corner that has Pagan over the door.

I am ready to vote for you for Senate or even President...just imagine...policies of peace (what actions do the least harm), equality of humanity, life being sacred without a price tag.

I am watching the Petraeus Report on C Span. So I am a little angry right now with the policies that have brought about the chaos that is causeing such harm to so many.

When this selected war in Iraq was first talked about by this administration, there were those that were so gung ho about war...go get Saddam, go kill and vanquish those who hurt us, even though even I knew the facts were not adding up with what the inspectors were saying. But people put on their big rubber fingers(We're number one!!!) and their magnets on their cars (support the troops)...and we bombed the innocents. Cluster bombs and DU. Ruined people with a past of 6000 years of history.Ruined lands and ruined lives. I am sick with it.

Nationalistic ego and lying neocons...stay the course and Bring Em On! Now we have dead soldiers..men and women with tired and sick brains, missing limbs, and again...ruined lives.

And the question is about extremists...which ones?

Goddess Bless,
terra