A Pagan View of Death

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qrxadl cxls efpv hysukn zyauedhqw ulco bjgmotrqc

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that has helped a bit, I still have a long road ahead---I miss my Mom so much--it can not be put into words

that has helped a bit, I still have a long road ahead---I miss my Mom so much--it can not be put into words

edEXZZ U cool ))

edEXZZ U cool ))

edEXZZ U cool ))

Hello!
Nice site ;)
Bye

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

http://moreaboutmen.com/genre/jazz-folk/g109/

And, going back, Think I'll have a go at 'lots of questions'' questions. If they're never read, well, I don't feel much like arguing, today, anyway. :)

" Lots of Questions:

"Hello wiccans...can you tell us who goddess is?"

That would be telling. :)
Ok, really, that one's hard to answer for lack of a specified frame of reference... We might say 'The Goddess is an animate and aware principle in all the multiverse, seen and unseen.'

To many of us the experience isn't of going to find some individual personage out there somewhere, but rather to come to know who's in everything... whether in that big abstract sense, a more personal one, several more personal ones, or any combination of the above.

" What does she look like? How do you know what/who she is?"

What She looks like. Hrm.

Umm, Everything? Anyone? Isabella Rosselini as the Grey-Eyed One? (I kind of like that depiction.) Me? You? :)

"Do you have a pagan bible or something similar? "

Nope. Look where that got some other folks. :)

"Was the story of goddess passed down through the ages or something like that?"

Yes, and it's happening now. And has yet to be told, and all of these. :)

" How are you so sure about 'goddess' yet many of you question Christian beliefs. What makes you so sure of yours?"

Different conditions of certainty, a general non-dependence on claims contrary to observed fact, and, personal and shared experience.

"Also, NDE's? Can you pagans only have them? How about Christians? Atheists? Mickey Mouse clubbers?"

Apparently so. It appears that people report similar experiences in many cultures, ...in fact, many Christians believe that these experiences are proof of Christian Heaven and Jesus and all that, but that's probably the only way they could report it according to their beliefs. Having been through it, I can say it's not dependent upon a particular belief system. I think the 'tunnel effect is simply what hypoxia does to the brain, similar to the 'tunnel vision' pilots and others experience when about to black out for one reason or another.

Which is certainly not to say I don't believe there's anything spiritual about it, quite the contrary, but rather that I'm pretty sure some of the elements of the experience are physiological, and thus not religion-dependent. There's more.

But, this is probably why pop-culture depictions of Heaven and related figures are almost always shot with high-key white background lighting, in fact.

If anything, I'd say that Christians tend to be the ones most attached to the idea that's what happens.

"How can I come back as a monkey? or a dinosaur?"

Why wait for another life, when so many can do that so well now? :) (joke) :)

Seriously, well, there are different schools of thought on that... Most Pagans would say another incarnation will be that which you are drawn to... (we figure/observe that we may tend to reincarnate among people we've known before, or find contact with them, because that's a law of attraction in the universe... or maybe Lady likes to keep teams together, who knows. :) )

Some cultures believe that it's a sort of karmic punishment to incarnate as a 'lower' form of life: Pagans, respecting animals and generally believing they have souls and valid experiences, too, tend to see it as a more practical matter: human-type experience isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the universe, so, if you need the experience of being a house cat, that might happen.... (some even figure that since there are more humans alive now than have ever lived before, that this is the first time around in this kind of form for a lot of folks, not that it has to be linear like that.)

I might half-joke that a good way to end up reincarnating as a monkey is to too-much deny you're a 'monkey' in *this* life, ...that ought to create enough imbalance that you may find yourself needing to reconnect with what that part of us is. :)

Miss lessons, you might repeat the course, and all. :)

" This is very intruguing. Who decides how I come back? Or when? Is there a 'head pagan or wiccan' that passes out the return trip tickets?"

No, we're not like Christians, this way, as above described. We may personify the forces that shape these things, ...figure that Gods have something to do with one's next assignment, even, (Hey, at least you can ask. :) ) ...but those of us who hold to the idea of reincarnation consider it first and foremost 'just how things work,' not an artificial process that some God does in some way totally outside how the rest of the world works. Kind of like how the law of Threefold Return needs no judge, ...it just happens.

I read with some irony that someone characterized Wiccans as 'spitting into the wind,' we'd say we're doing quite the opposite, in fact. We don't expect to do cruel things and be 'vindicated' by a God cause it was in the name of a book.

"Inquiring minds would like to know."

See, you're being a very good kind of creature for that, right now. Good seeking. :)

"So sorry, didn't mean to ramble. If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful."

On this, hrm, reading material.... I'm a poetry person, most of all. But that inspiration is, really, where you find it, not always or even necessarily often where things are deliberately about the Gods or Paganism... but maybe that's in part the bias of someone who found her hymns in the strangest places, before ever knowing from Wicca or that there were other Pagans out there.

Could be that echo in the snow is your own way of tapping yourself on the shoulder, so to speak, ...ashes are much about things past, and winter brings spring, where these ashes feed new life. , so try not to focus on what troubling things one might imagine brought them, too much.

It's usually important to read a bunch of different things, I'd say, there's nothing truly authoritative, and that's actually something which protects us from a lot of the abuses and excesses religions can engender.

For some reason, I'm thinking of this book series that isn't really about Wicca or Paganism, but has prominent Wiccan characters, (it's actually written by a non-Pagan with some consulting from a Wiccan friend on certain matters,) but speaking of ashes, the first book is called 'Dies The Fire' by SM Stirling... there's a lot of fighting in it, (the premise of the story is that some bizarre and possibly supernatural event takes away most technology, and the main point is to speculate on what happens next: among those best-equipped to deal are some Pagans and some Society For Creative Anachronism types and much Let's Have a Sci Fi Trilogy ensues. :)

I dunno, I just like it and find it a bit inspiring, maybe as an answer to all that apocalyptic vibe we hear from fundamentalist Christians and the deathwish of the Left Behind fans. And, well, I suppose there's an uncanny resemblance in the main character to a priestess I know. :)

But sometimes I think it's easiest to get what we're about when the direct topic *isn't* our religion, and maybe that goes for anyone. :)

Hi, all. Not sure how much time I have, just now. :) Glad something was helpful, though, Manythanks.

As for your impressions of snowfall, you could do

But I thought I'd mention this:

"I have another developing hypothesis, which I’ll post somewhere for your comments when I’ve thought about it more. It relates to likely temperaments for pagans, atheists and believers, using the Myers-Briggs personality indicator as a frame of reference."

I know a number of Pagans that have played with these scales, and really, we seem to be pretty well-sorted according to them, ...we really get all types, at least as a gross observation: it's a matter of what you bring.

Since the test relies on a self-sorting process, this may be somewhat inevitable, ... people tend to compare themselves to their peer groups.

I tested myself on it once or twice, but forget just how it came out. I think one might guess I tend to go about some things not considered hard rationality, in some pretty analytical ways. Certain types, of course, will tend to gravitate toward more scholarly traditions, and others, other variations... usually full pracitcing traditions are like tribes and incorporate all types. Could be the same for any belief system.

To 'Many Thanks:

You said: "If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful."

There's something about the quiet that comes over the world, the utter stillness during a big snowstorm that just does something to me too. I can definitely relate to that.

There's a lot out there but when I was just starting to look around it was recommended to me to start with a book called "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler (from NPR). She did a really great in depth journalistic look of the phenomenon of modern Pagans. It's a good starting point because she touches on a LOT of the major branches within Paganism. She interviewed hundreds of people to get their perspective and how they describe their own personal path. She presents the facts whenever possible and the debates that exist within the community. Reading that helped me zero in on what resonated with me and discovering authors that described one path in more detail.

Starhawk's books are also really good, but the history she presents has been disputed since her book came out. Her overall concepts though are beautifully written.

Hope those help. Bright blessings!

I was looking for something to help further this spiritual journey my heart has been crying for much of my life and stumbled upon this thread.
Paganplace - I sure could have used your wisdom twenty years ago! The product of an unstable, all-or-nothing southern Baptist, I made it through the suicidale teen years and yet it took me two failed marriages to figure out I've been gay all along. I am not accustom to the wisdom and open mindedness found in your posts and am so grateful to have had the opportunity to view these discussions.
I won't take up much more space on this thread - I really have nothing to offer at this point, except maybe to share my own experience with what I think may be my link with a previous existance. Since childhood, whenever large flakes of snow fall from a sunny sky, my first association has never been with the wonders and beauty of winter. Instead, my first reaction has always been as follows: I see not snow, but human ash pluming from some unseen incinerator. I think I've been in a concentration camp. This experiance is brief, and then I see snow for snow and can smile at the beauty.
So sorry, didn't mean to ramble. If anyone has suggestions for reading material for a "lost soul" whose heart bursts with joy at the mention of a Goddess or Gods and a belief systemt that celebrates nature, I would be deeply grateful.
Again, many thanks for your words of wisdom!
Blessed Be

Paganplace - thanks very much - it's been fascinating thinking this through and getting the input of Pagans.

I have another developing hypothesis, which I’ll post somewhere for your comments when I’ve thought about it more. It relates to likely temperaments for pagans, atheists and believers, using the Myers-Briggs personality indicator as a frame of reference.

Hi Paganplace:
"Ah, Priver. Yay. I'd been worried I said something to really cheese people off, I worry about getting uncomfortably close to 'witnessing' at times, even if our habits of not-talking-about-some-stuff might promote the idea 'you're just making this up and don't have real experiences or relationships with the Gods,' :)"

I've never noticed that throughout your posts, and I do understand your concerns. I think I already made that mistake on the first thread I'd had with a Christian biblical literalist. I was still pretty new to the community and was so excited I probably ended up coming off more arrogant than I'd ever meant to. Hopefully since then I've worked through the 'fluffy' stage and have learned that not everyone will be ready for us, and that it's ok, even necessary sometimes to keep my mouth shut, and to recognize the difference between honest questions and those looking to 'save my soul'.

Blessed be

Going back, cause I missed a sincere question from E-Fave:

"E favorite:

Lepi, Terra, Priver, Paganplace -- I asked about supernatural Gods abecause I thought that was the one absolute distinction between atheists and believers. For instance, both could be rational (most of the time) freethinking,, liberal/ conservative, smart/dumb, nice/nasty, sensitive/ doltish, etc. But the one thing that separates them is their position on belief in invisible supernatural beings."

"Then I got to thinking that Pagans probably don't believe in supernatural Gods either and it sounds like you don't."

I think part of the problem here is that many Pagan views tend to find the word 'supernatural' a bit of an ill-defined term.

We typically do not base our beliefs on an external-to-the-natural-world Creator: we generally believe that the Gods are part of the same thing as Nature is... it doesn't mean we believe that the material world is the only thing that's 'real,' though.

I would say that the worldview doesn't mean we don't believe the visible-to-us-right-now-in-certain-ways world is the only world, ...I certainly have seen the Gods much as one might expect... Spirit-personages, say, and have no problem interacting or speaking as such, with a healthy dose of reality-check involved, perhaps, but also knowing at least half of such an experience is constructed of what you bring with you.

I think if there's a common element, it's not that we say that there is *nothing beyond what we see* but that we do not *separate* the Gods from the world as others do.

So, when you say 'supernatural,' it's a word that doesn't necessarily work with most of our worldviews, philosophically. One doesn't *need* to believe in anything more-unseen-than-our-feelings, or, anything apart-from-our world, or even 'unseen personages,' but there's nothing stopping that, either.... we'd say that the Gods and what we see in life are not contradictory or 'fallen' 'realities,' though... we'd say they're all part of the same thing.

This is part of why we don't believe all religions are mutually-exclusive or must make contradictory claims.

"However, you consider yourselves religious, right? and you do believe in gods, right? so you are "believers" sort of, is this right? You could also be thought of as naturalists, I think, which is a term atheists also identify with, but I don't think Christians would."

Sure, I consider myself religious. I probably have more 'religiosity' than most Pagans, in some ways, I should think. As 'Naturalism' goes, well, I'd say that we believe we can learn about the Gods through our experience of the natural, yes. :)

"So I guess the next question is - if you don't mind -- which stance on god/religion seems closest to yours - the athiests' or that of religious people who believe in a supernatural god?"

I would say that actually what we *don't* believe is that the Gods are a separate and distinct reality from the material: one to be either embraced blindly or denied: in this I think it's actually that many Christians and many atheists (and 'paranormal investigators') are the ones who live in a similar conceptual world to each other, ...they just take different 'sides' within it.

Our premises and priorities are different.

I guess it kind of depends what you believe constitutes 'natural' before you start trying to define what's 'above' (super) it.

Actually, that derivation's important, too: we don't believe the Gods are 'above' (and outside) Nature... We tend to believe they're *part* of Nature, seen or unseen.

Ah, Priver. Yay. I'd been worried I said something to really cheese people off, I worry about getting uncomfortably close to 'witnessing' at times, even if our habits of not-talking-about-some-stuff might promote the idea 'you're just making this up and don't have real experiences or relationships with the Gods,' :)

So: For the other Anonymous, when I talk about things, you might notice I don't say who my Gods are or who I am. It lets me speak without becoming a snake-oil-or-pie-in-the-sky huckster if you can't identify quite what I'm 'selling.' :)

I don't believe our faith is contained in or limited by or dependent upon anything one can destroy or sell. As largely-European Pagans, and as many others, well, people have tried, and 'we' are still here, reborn in a way that's very consistent with our worldview, if not central to it.

You could say our very religion, in all its many forms and offshoots, is an act of the very same kind of regeneration we observe in nature, and oftimes in ourselves.

I agree Starhawk's a good representative, here. Within the Pagan community, there's obviously a huge diversity of opinions and scholarship on a lot of things, but all in all it works, especially cause she's good at talking theology, (and keeping it pretty simple) which isn't always a given among our many variations.

I think a common element in the many traditions of Pagan revival, even, is that in fact, 'life after death' *is not the central point and lynchpin of the whole belief system.*

I'd in general characterize us as 'un-fussed about it.' Commonly we'll say, 'I think it's like this, if it's otherwise, well, OK.'

In general our ideas of ethics and morality and spirituality are *integrated with this life, or any life,* ...there isn't a theological insistence that 'This life is to be sacrificed for the next,' ... rather, all lives are part of the same thing, in perhaps ever-changing form, and what characterizes 'progress' applies fully whether an afterlife or next-life or between life is what we believe or sing them to be, or not.

It always strikes me when Christian missionaries come to the door trying to scare me about *death,* ...I mostly resent them bringing it up cause I'd rather not die or be dying right now, especially with the house a bit of a mess and some projects to do, ...but you have to wonder, 'Is that all you care about?'

I think that that idea terrorizes people into either cruelty or spending Saturday mornings waking sick people to tell them to be afraid of death so they can sell a 'solution' to what's not the big 'problem' to everyone.

"certainly don't think I'm any kind of Grand Poobah of anything, though, Priver. In fact, I'm pretty studiously-anonymous."

I know you are and I respect you for that. You've got one anonymous confused with another.

"Seems paganplace thinks he/she is the grand poo-bah of all knowledge. Makes cynnical references to Christianity, yet he/she reeks of cynnicism.

Sorry, youre not the pied piper here, Paganplace"

This particular anonymous above, dated at 8:08am on 10/17 wasn't me. The only one that I forgot to sign was the post dated 10/17 at 7am.

I actually admire what you bring to the conversations around here- you can often say it so much better than I can and get me thinking about things I hadn't considered before.

I'd still vote for you for president. Except now that Colbert is in the running, you may have competition. :)

Believe me when I say I understand about the crisis counseling. I work with children under 3 with developmental concerns, and we often see the same things as you're describing. I just sometimes have to deal with foster families' aftermath of a horrible situation. There was one situation where I know what the impact of the Law of Threefold Return can do, but I couldn't help wanting to put a serious hurt on the person who damaged a kid like the one I was trying to get help for. You've got every right to be cheesed off.

E Fav:

You said
"Priver - So there's more we have in common! some people think atheists are devil worshippers too, and that we have no morals (no god = no morals)"

I've heard that before too. There's so much more in common than you might think. I tend to see the links between all the religions and find it odd that other religious (usually monotheistic) people refuse to see the similarities. It's the atheists that I can have the most respectful conversations with most of the time. There are places where we differ, but there is much to agree upon.

We're just as alarmed at what the religious fanatics are doing- to our country as well as others. Our moral law is 'an it harm none, do as you will.' I look at what's happening to this country and I want to cry. I doubt I'm alone in this.

"Maybe pagans need their own Hitchens - well you know what I mean, I hope - a spokesperson who commands a lot of attention."

Starhawk is a really good start. If they had to pick just one Pagan to be here, I'm glad it was her. She doesn't just talk about doing something, she goes and stands up for what she believes in. She backs up her words with actions, often ones that land her in trouble with conventional authority, and for that she has my respect. Even if I don't always agree with her. The fact that she's even on this site at all was a surprise and is a hopeful first step.

I just wish there were more Pagan authors from different traditions on this site so that the rest of the folks can get a grasp about the wide ranges of thought that exist within Paganism. It took us 10 years just to get our veterans to be permitted to be buried under the Pentacle, so I guess first things first. Baby steps. But here's hoping.

Most Pagans I know tend to try to live by example and hope that that will speak louder than any shouting can. The results of this approach remain to be seen. People ask us sometimes 'where are the Pagan charities?' when they don't realize that we're already doing things, just not advertising it to proclaim our 'superiority.' We just.. do. Because these things need doing. As I've seen atheists do the same.

There's a lot we can learn from one another if we stop to listen.

Blessed be

*wandering in.*

Sorry about being so cheesed off last time. I'd been doing some unexpected crisis counseling for an abuse victim, and some of the things Christians so casually-seem to say on boards like this, I have heard too many times coming from kids in crisis who were badly-hurt based on these ideas.

It may seem perfectly reasonable to talk about 'ultimate evil' and 'fallen humanity' and 'Satan' and all kinds of things like that, ...but insert a credulous, unbalanced parent, and you get kids who grew up with someone trying to 'exorcise' them. Things that'd be 'torture of a young human being' by any other definition except maybe the Bush administration's.

And, well, I'm at the point where it can make me furious at times.

I certainly don't think I'm any kind of Grand Poobah of anything, though, Priver. In fact, I'm pretty studiously-anonymous.

I don't think we need a Hitchens-like spokesperson, cause frankly, any such person the media would have would be ooky-spooky and easily-used as an effigy for people to discount or be threatened by, like Wiccans on daytime talk shows or Hitchens himself.

It does so happen that I've had certain experiences, and worked on certain ways to talk on them that I hope in this forum occasionally say, 'Hey, could be there's at least as much to this Pagan stuff as there is to other, more accepted religions,' ...even stuff that a lot of people, and other cultures, in fact, experience that actually says more than 'Ch ristianityis not for me,' ...that there is something to us... and our ancestors, in our own right, really.

That we're not just poised between the Christians and the atheists and modern values, even.

Take it FWIW.

Priver - So there's more we have in common! some people think atheists are devil worshippers too, and that we have no morals (no god = no morals)

Maybe pagans need their own Hitchens - well you know what I mean, I hope - a spokesperson who commands a lot of attention.

"I'm pretty sure Hitchens is not talking about pagans -- because I've heard him speak and he's never mentioned them. His "rap" is against religions (christianity, islam) that insist you believe a certain way or face the consequences. He says he is anti-theist (vs A-thiest), but even that does not in my mind include pagans."

I hope you're right. I really do. But so many people have such distorted images of us that I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't think we existed at all. Or if he did, that our numbers were so small that they didn't matter.

We're either seen as flaky, nonexistent, or worse yet- worshipping a devil we don't even believe exists or sacrificing animals/people. None of which is true. There's no real way to get a good count of how many of us there even are because a lot of people can't admit to it because of the dangers involved.

We also tend to get dismissed out of hand because to look at the Pagans that existed pre-Christian times occasionally may include some things that we would never practice these days.

"As to the "shouting" - I'm pretty confident that it's a phase - a necessary one to get people's attention. It's happened io evey successful movement I can think of. You can't make any progress without first getting people to notice that something new is happening."

I hope so. I just don't want the baby to be tossed out with the bathwater.

Arminius, why aren't you preaching the Gospel to these pagans? Is it because you think salvation rests with *you*, so you'd better be careful?

I don't envy you your poor impotent God who depends on you to fill his Kingdom.

Priver: "It's when someone like Hitchens comes along talking about how religion 'poisons everything' and leaves no room for those whose way of life doesn't involve trying to convert others- that's what makes me wonder"

I'm pretty sure Hitchens is not talking about pagans -- because I've heard him speak and he's never mentioned them. His "rap" is against religions (christianity, islam) that insist you believe a certain way or face the consequences. He says he is anti-theist (vs A-thiest), but even that does not in my mind include pagans.

As to the "shouting" - I'm pretty confident that it's a phase - a necessary one to get people's attention. It's happened io evey successful movement I can think of. You can't make any progress without first getting people to notice that something new is happening.

"Priver - I can say with some confidence that none of the authors I've read want to do away with childish fantasies. They are opposed to "indoctrinating children" into religions. Dawkins' oft repeated line is that there is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child of christian parents. He has made a point of saying the same of children of atheist parents."

Agreed. The same also applies to Pagan parents. Most of those I know would rather discuss why they celebrate what they do, but encourage their children to learn about other religious practices and then allow them to figure out what they would do when they are old enough.

"I wouldn't be surprised if your impression is from slanted articles that you've read."

That's probably true. And those types of articles are growing in number in the days since Dawkins and Harris and others have laid down the gauntlet and made it ok to openly talk about their atheism.

What bothers me is the fact that in order for any point of view to be even considered these days you've got to shout back.. but it's sadly understandable given the environment we live in today. It's one where one is assumed to be Christian until told otherwise.. and then once people find out they are afraid of anyone who's different. And we know all too well where fear leads us.

It's when someone like Hitchens comes along talking about how religion 'poisons everything' and leaves no room for those whose way of life doesn't involve trying to convert others- that's what makes me wonder.

Priver - I can say with some confidence that none of the authors I've read want to do away with childish fantasies. They are opposed to "indoctrinating children" into religions. Dawkins' oft repeated line is that there is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child of christian parents. He has made a point of saying the same of children of atheist parents.

I wouldn't be surprised if your impression is from slanted articles that you've read.

I hate it when I forget to sign my posts. The anonymous was me. Sorry about that. It happens- especially when I was headed out the door. :)

Those types of things seem to be the implications of some of Hitchens' work, for example. While I'd have to recheck it to be certain, much of what I've read of his appears to lead in that direction, at least implicitly.

I'm equating Divinity with imagination in the sense that that appears to be the mechanism involved whenever someone has an experience that leads them to find whatever religion they end up in. Myself included. It just seemed to me to be the natural extension of the argument that somehow the world would be better off by getting rid of all 'childish fantasies'. But as I'm not an atheist I'd be curious to know if maybe I am reading too much into their arguments. That's why I'd be interested to know what the authors and other atheists would say to it.

I'm actually not disputing your take on the Greek Myths. I agree with you. (They're great, aren't they?) I don't think any mythology should ever be taken 'literally' and I do also think it's wrong to tell someone they'll be punished for not doing so. I apply this to all mythology, Biblical included. For me they are there as teaching tools and can sometimes give great lessons. And sometimes they're just really cool stories.

You said "I loved Campbell as an adult because he gave additional context to the stories, linking them to religion – something I hadn’t done on my own. Campbell was instrumental in opening up my imagination, not shutting it down."

What I referred to was my 'worry" in reference to only the first part of your post dated Oct. 16th at 11:49 that began with "I'm lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?”..etc.

I never meant to say that I was worried that Campbell shut anything down for you. In fact just the opposite. He opened up my imagination as well and got me thinking too. I'm glad he had that effect on you as well. Looks like I've got to structure my responses better. :)

Anonymous - who are you - someone I know who forgot to sign his/her name or a new person chiming in? It helps to have context.

Meanwhile, you say, “That is exactly my worry [Campbell being influential in my journey away from religion]." Some of the atheists (certainly not all) love to talk about how people who believe in Divinity are simply deluded and how the remedy for that would be to put away all 'childish' fantasies and only rely on what's accessible through the senses. By so doing, there goes such concepts as Santa, etc.. leaving.. what?”

Who suggests this remedy – can you provide some names and some direct quotes? This is not the message I’ve gotten at all. Are you equating divinity with imagination? Perhaps the only source of imagination?

I loved the Greek myths as a child – they were imaginative stories, with important life lessons, and not a hint from any adult that we kids were supposed to believe they were factual – or be punished if we didn’t.

I loved Campbell as an adult because he gave additional context to the stories, linking them to religion – something I hadn’t done on my own. Campbell was instrumental in opening up my imagination, not shutting it down.

Seems paganplace thinks he/she is the grand poo-bah of all knowledge. Makes cynnical references to Christianity, yet he/she reeks of cynnicism.

Sorry, youre not the pied piper here, Paganplace

Pagan Place, I'm with you...

I think if Dr. Jung were to pop into this thread he might have a thing or two to say about some Christians and the Shadow, no?

And regarding NDE... I read about a study a while back and it's seems like it's a fairly universal phenomenon, the only differences being due to cultural expectations. Those who return seem to think that the mission was to love more and to learn more. Seems like good advice.

E Fav: You wrote:
"I’m lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?” and what are strident atheists advocating these days? And what do you see as “the end result?” Do you mean you’re concerned that some atheists want to rid the world of all products of the imagination, including Santa? And that the end result would be a colorless world? Take heart – scientists can be very imaginative.

PS – I love Joseph Campbell – he was a major non-strident force in my journey away from religion."

That is exactly my worry. Some of the atheists (certainly not all) love to talk about how people who believe in Divinity are simply deluded and how the remedy for that would be to put away all 'childish' fantasies and only rely on what's accessible through the senses. By so doing, there goes such concepts as Santa, etc.. leaving.. what?

I know the scientists can be imaginative- but so can the artists and dreamers. I just think there's great value to someone who is still able to keep their dreams alive within the context of day to day life. Even as an adult. What I see a lot of these days is parents who tell their children that they can do whatever they want to when they grow up.. until they get to a certain point and then they, or the surrounding society, take those dreams away from them because that's what they had done to them. It stifles innovation and real creativity.

And I enjoy them all.. Jung, Sagan, Asimov, Campbell.. and still find that Divine Spark in everything. Especially in great works of literature/art/music and the natural world.

Well, Mad, Jung and Campbell, that's starting toward getting somewhere. More people paid attention to that, and I probably wouldn't be so cheesed off lately. :)

I mean, if we could just stop pretending for half a minute that we *don't* live in a world where everything 'Christian values' voters scream for comes out *backwards* if it doesn't involve hating someone, then maybe we could split theological hairs or something.

Till then, know what?

Gods.

Look at this, look at what you *do* before you start developing selective standards of evidence for denying what ought to be *obvious.*

References to Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell? Now were getting somewhere! The Power of Myth and the Numinosity of the Archetype. All that and a fresh pot of coffee t’boot? Somebody pinch me…

And, just if Christians wanna quibble about interpretations having something to do with "love..."

*ready to burst into tears, here,*

I mean, Bright Lady, Torchbearer, and Holy Mother of Punk...

I don't suppose while you're talking whatever talk you're talking, you Christians could you like not make your queer kids feel they gotta be so suicidal?

You talk abstractions out of a book, like it's a good reason to hurt people, and your kids are screaming.

*wandering on in.* Well, hey, this discussion's kept going on. I seem to have some backscroll to read. :)

I'm struck by this exchange, though, about lack of literalistic, legalistic texts:

""Yes, we have laws. We have myths. We have poetry and music and art. But it is not writ by any god...it is inspired by our love of the gods.""

"Does that mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love?"

How about... No, and, who taught you that words mean that?

" What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical? "

Pagan with a capital P. We're people. Proper noun.

What is a God?

Would you believe we don't actually need a singular definition of such?

Aong ourselves, we discuss these things, and somehow no one gets damned. :)

I think, that to many Pagans, one of the attributes of a God and/or Goddess is to be a being that needs no words or commandments to dwell in our lives.

Personally, I see no signs of a 'loving' God in the idea of a character who would put the only key to escaping eternal suffering in the hands of the very people who use those words to cause undue suffering to others over trivia...

Maybe.... it's a defining characteristic of Pagan faith that someone in fact did ruthlessly take our words and things away....

And the Gods are Those That Are With Us Anyway.

Cause some Someones have been.

You wanna mix it up about footnotes, maybe consider some of us don't consider certain books as magical as you do.

Take your time, just in the interim, try and work your head around us being people. You've done it before. :)

Lepidopteryx said:

>>stop by and I'll make a pot of Cajun coffee (so strong it walks by itself from the pot to the cup) and we'll have a confab.

Now thats what Im talkin' about (siiiiipppp)
..my friend..your talking my language.

Priver: “I just see the other side of the extreme, as you called it, as what seems to be what some of the more strident atheists are advocating these days. And the end result of such a thing is just as scary to me as religious fanaticism.”

I’m lost. What do you mean “the other side of the extreme?” and what are strident atheists advocating these days? And what do you see as “the end result?” Do you mean you’re concerned that some atheists want to rid the world of all products of the imagination, including Santa? And that the end result would be a colorless world? Take heart – scientists can be very imaginative.

PS – I love Joseph Campbell – he was a major non-strident force in my journey away from religion.

PriveR,

I really CAN spell, honest I can. Verbally.

But I don't type worth a damn....

LOQ,

I don't generally go about scheduling theosophical debates for my friends. But if you're ever in my neck of the woods, stop by and I'll make a pot of Cajun coffee (so strong it walks by itself from the pot to the cup) and we'll have a confab.

"As for flukes, I'm not convinced that this is the only planet in the univers that has life on it."- Priver"

Um.. that wasn't me. I'm anal about spelling. Sorry. :)

As far as life on other planets goes, I have to go with Hobbes.. as in Calvin and Hobbes: 'The best sign that there IS intelligent life in outer space is that it has NOT tried to contact us.' :)

E Fav: Interesting. I guess my underlying implication is that for me what we call Divine is a product of our imagination and emotional intuitive life. By definition that would also include things like Santa and Co. So basically these days people are fighting over one person's interpretation of someone's imagination versus another.

I just see the other side of the extreme, as you called it, as what seems to be what some of the more strident atheists are advocating these days. And the end result of such a thing is just as scary to me as religious fanaticism.

I just think imagination is given a lower status in our society when our country here in America started as someone's vision of what freedom could really mean. To the detriment of all. We used to revere innovators. Visionaries. We really don't anymore. And that is what's going to leave us behind.

*stepping off soapbox* Sorry. I get a little carried away- it's just something I'm really passionate about these days. :)

I do agree with you that these days those stories are presented as fact that must be taken literally, and I think that defeats the whole purpose of what may have been meant by them. I think Campbell had it right on.

If I can post it on any other atheist thread I will- but there seem to be about as many atheists and questions about them as there are Pagans most of the time. We have a lot in common that way, I think.

I'd be interested to know what your other atheist comrades think as well. Feel free to pass it along. :)

lepidopteryx,

I would really like to talk to your Jewish friends. It would be intriguing to get their views on those who followed God, for instance, pre-flood..before there were 12 tribes of Israel..only one of which being the tribe of Judah. Its interesting stuff to discuss those who followed God since Adam, and where, for instance, the tribes of Israel have landed since, such as the tribe of Dan, who are traced to NW Europe (Denmark), etc.

If they are available for discussion, perhaps you could invite them on to this blog.

thanks

LOQ: There was no Judaism, nor Jews, when Abraham practiced religion. Same with Noah. et. al. and those before that are chronicled to have walked with God.

My Jewish friends would beg to differ with you.

From Lepidopteryx:

>>"My Goddess gave birth to your God" refers to the fact that Goddess religions were being practiced long before Judaism, and the fact that the dates of Christian holy days were chosen becausae they were Pagan holy days amd many of the rituals and symbols used by Christians have Pagan origins. Not to mention that the dying/resurrected god concept is also Pagan in origin and predates Christianity.

There was no Judaism, nor Jews, when Abraham practiced religion. Same with Noah. et. al. and those before that are chronicled to have walked with God.

True, Christmas, Easter and the like and their symbols and rituals are equated to and chosen by modern Christianity, but are also error..according to scripture. Hence, why the word 'holiday' came from 'holy day'...they are counterfeits, of which Christ, nor his disciples kept. Christ kept the Holy Days of the Old Covenant, which are also kept by today's remnants of the early church in a New Testament light (ie. Christ is the center of Passover now, different to what it was in the time of Egypt. The Day of Atonement pictures the putting away of Satan at the return of Jesus Christ in the new covenant, the old covenant used physical reminders of putting away sin/evil in using goats. The Day of Trumpets signaled a new beginning beyond bondage in Egypt in the old covenant...in the new covenant, it pictures the new beginning when the trumpets are blown at Christ's second coming, etc)

With regard to your other comments...it is good to share thoughts, but we certainly disagree on our origins and what is to be worshiped. But to agree to disagree cordially is paramount to our coexistence in the physical life we have been given.

Thanks for your comments

Ok, that's bizarre - WaPo dropped huge portions of my reply to Lots Of Questions, and the resulting post makes no sense, so I'll try again.

LOQ: I cant grasp what goddess was before mankind was if she looks like you, me and all.

All doesn't just refer to humanity. ALL refers to the Goddess being part of ALL life. When you look in the mirror, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at your dog, you're seeing the Goddess. When you see a fish jump in a river, you're seeing the Goddess. When you see a flower, you're seeing the Goddess. When you put a drop of pond water under a microscope and observe all the tiny organisms swimming in it, you're seeing the Goddess.
"My Goddess gave birth to your God" refers to the fact that Goddess religions were being practiced long before Judaism, and the fact that the dates of Christian holy days were chosen becausae they were Pagan holy days amd many of the rituals and symbols used by Christians have Pagan origins. Not to mention that the dying/resurrected god concept is also Pagan in origin and predates Christianity.

LOQ: Obviously, the above is merely a myth that you/those who think similar to you have accepted. It seems to have merely a 'feel good' sound has some claim that Christian beliefs have. I know of no proof nor chronicled historical fact of a realm that existed before/along with/besides the Christian God.

"Merely a myth" is part of the reason you have difficulty grasping pagan beliefs. You apparnetly define "Myth" as "Not true." The Pagans I know define "Myth" the way Joseph Campbell does - those stories that allow us to define and name the numinous and/or mystical aspects of life. There is no one-size-fits-all Truth. Truth wears many masks and she reveals herself to each person in the way that person cn best understand.
As for proof, you have no more objective proof of your God than I do of any of my gods or goddesses. That's why the word "faith" is used to describe both your beliefs and mine.

LOQ: >>NDE's? NDE's are not according to religion.
Seems many are considering it a type of spiritual experience in this blog. What type of spiritual experiece would an atheist, for example, encounter. Does the pagan believe that one who does not believe in God, gods, etc can be reincarnated?

I seem to recall at least one post from an atheist who had an NDE and saw/felt/heard nothing. No light, no enveloping warmth, no Welcome Wagon of long-dead friends and relatives, no voice saying "Go back." Perhaps what we see/feel/hear during NDE's depends on what we expect to see/feel/hear.
As for reincarnation, I believe it to be a universal phenomenon, but I don't think those who don't believe it are doomed.

LOQ: Does that(no Pagan Bible) mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love? What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical?

Because my gods are part of me, and I am part of the All, guidance is constant and internal - that which is good for All is good for me, and any harm I do to others, I do to myself.
As for writing, my deities don't write any more than yours did. Just like Jewish and Christian writers did in the writings that comprise your Bbile, Pagan writers have written down their thoughts and ideas about the nature of the Divine. I read works by writers of all faiths and incorporate those ideas that make sense to me into my life, and ignore those that strike me as dreck. I feel no compulsion to accept every idea any one writer has if it doesn't make sense to me.

LOQ: Who figured all this out and has been noted as the authority to know this (reincarnation)really happens?

I could ask the same of your beliefs. And the answer would be the same as my previous paragraph. Reincarnation just makes more sense to me than etenal reward or eternal damnation after one lifetime.

LOQ: I personally believe that a creation is not to be praised or worshiped, rather tended to, appreciated and thankful for.. It would be the same in our realm if we praised the TV and not its inventor. I believe that it is logically safe to assume that our little speck in the universe is not a fluke....just as most good things that mankind can create with their hands and plan with their minds are not flukes.

We also believe that the creation is to be tended to, appreciated, and thankful for. We just don't see the creator/creatrix as separate from that creation. And we don't see ourselves as separate from the rest of creation.
Your tv analogy really doesn't work because a tv is an inanimate object, not a living thing.
As for flukes, I dont believe for a moment that this is the only planet in the universe with life on it. I think that it is muchmore likely that life has evolved on other planets, whether in or ot of this solar system, and that we are simply no capable of recognizing it as such due to either it not fitting the parameters we decided on for defining life, or to it existing outside the outside the scope of our senses to detect.

"As for flukes, I'm not convinced that this is the only planet in the univers that has life on it."- Priver

I'm beginning to think that "life" is the default position. We keep inventing instruments that reveal new aspects of our world, and everywhere we look, life is there. Life thrives at hot water vents, in total darkness and in water hot enough to a crab boil. Life also thrives at cold water seeps, where the basis for life is methane. When we finally start exploring outer space, I'm sure we'll find life there. And it will have the same spark of the Divine that it does down here.

Terra Gazelle asked:

>>Questions,
>>Exactly what does your god look like?

We were created in His image.

>>How does your god inspire you to love?

Not by any reasoning of man, for sure. God has allowed man to do his own thing, yet be involved where His purpose applies. Scripture explains that man had a fall...not God. I am inspired to love by what God has always intended for mankind, for the perfection of the creation He gave us and for the blessing to have a mind that was designed and crafted to allow us to be creative in our own realm, too.

LOTS OF QUESTIONS:
>>Terra Gazelle:

>>Questions,
>>Who is Goddess? Life.

Interesting. Christians believe God is the giver of life. So you worship the creation, and do not beleive anything could have created the creation, as you and I do with our own hands in a much, much, muuuucch smaller way, that would merit our awe and worship?

Pagans do not see a separation between creator (or creatrix) and creation. All are part and parcel of the same integrated whole. We are part of the Goddess and she is part of us.

>>What does She look like? You.Me. All.
So, below you state '..Goddess was old when the Hebrews were young....' and 'My goddess gave birth to your God'. I am assuming that you are saying that 'goddess' existed before what scripture states in Gen 1:1 (which was a recreation of the earth). I cant grasp what goddess was before mankind was if she looks like you, me and all.

By all, I believe Terra meant ALL life, not just humanity. (Terra, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Because the Goddess is present in all life, she has no single form. When you look in the mirror, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at your dog, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at a fish, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at a flower, you're seeing the Goddess. When you look at a drop of pond water under a microscope and see all the microscopic critters swimming it int, you're seeing the Goddess.

>>Was Goddess passed down through the ages? Read the bible..Goddess was old when the Hebrews were young. An old bumper sticker comes to mind: "My Goddess gave birth to your God."

Obviously, the above is merely a myth that you/those who think similar to you have accepted. It seems to have merely a 'feel good' sound has some claim that Christian beliefs have.

Merely a myth? There's part of your difficulty in understanding us. To us, Myth is not "merely" anything. Many (I daresy most, if not all) use the word in the way Joseph Campbell uses it - those stories that people use to describe and name the numinous and/or the mystical aspects of their lives. Myth is not a derogatory term, nor is it a dismissal of Truth; rather it is a recognition that Truth has many faces, and she does not show the same face to all, but reveals herself to each in the way s/he can best understand.

>>I know of no proof nor chronicled historical fact of a realm that existed before/along with/besides the Christian God.

Honey, you have no more objecive proof of the Christian God than we do of the Goddess. That's why the word "faith" is used to describe your rligion and mine. But there is plenty of archaeological evidence that Goddess worship was being practiced long before Judaism.

>>NDE's? NDE's are not according to religion.
Seems many are considering it a type of spiritual experience in this blog. What type of spiritual experiece would an atheist, for example, encounter.

Depends on the atheist. I seem to recall at least one post on this blog from an atheist who briefly died clinically, and saw nothing in that interim - no light, no envelopig warmth, no waiting friends and family members, no voice telling him to go back - nothing. So perhaps what a person sees in a NDE depends in part on what one expects to see.

>>Does the pagan believe that one who does not believe in God, gods, etc can be reincarnated?

I can't speak for all Pagans, but I believe that reincarnation is a universal occurence. But I won't think any less of you if you don't believe it.

>>A Pagan Bible? Well we sure have loads of books..which is what Bible is Greek for,A book. Do we have scripture? Yes, we have laws. We have myths. We have poetry and music and art. But it is not writ by any god...it is inspired by our love of the gods.

Does that mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love? What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical?

You're still working from a presupposition of separation of the divine and the mundane. Since my gods are part of me and I of them, everything I do has their essence in it. There is no extrinsic guidance, and no, my gods don't write, any more than yours does. As for insoriing towards love, my gods are IN the love I feel. To inspireit, they would have to be outside of it,not part of it. To this Pagan, the gods aren't physical, they're simply the means by which my spirit is linked to that of every other living thing in the Universe.

>>Reincarnation? Most Wiccans do not believwe that humans come back as anything but humans. We believe that thinking that a bad human will come back as an animal belittles the animal. A human comes back as a human. If you are a bigot, you may well come back as that person you were bigoted against. You will learn that lesson in your next life. An animal is what they are created to be, a man has choice.

Interesting. Who figured all this out and has been noted as the authority to know this really happens?

Who figured out that a spiritual home had streets paved in precious metals and buildings with walls encrusted with precious and semi-precious stones? There is no single authority who "decides" what others believe. I simply beleive what makes sense to me, and reincarnation makes a lot more sense to me than the heaven/hell business.

>>There is no head Pagan or Wiccan, though we have many leaders.

Seems so. Thanks for the reply. I personally believe that a creation is not to be praised or worshiped, rather tended to, appreciated and thankful for.. It would be the same in our realm if we praised the TV and not its inventor. I believe that it is logically safe to assume that our little speck in the universe is not a fluke....just as most good things that mankind can create with their hands and plan with their minds are not flukes.

That's because you are unable to see the interweaving of the creator/creatrix and the creation, and if you insist that they must remain separate in your mind, that's certanly your prerogative. We also believe that the earth and its denizens are to be tended to, appreciated,a nd thankful for - and also respected and hom=nored because they contain the same spark of divinity that we do.
As for flukes, I'm not convinced that this is the only planet in the univers that has life on it. I think it's much more likely that other planets whether in our solar system or not, have life, but we aren't able to recognize it as such because it either doesn't fit the parameters we've set for defining life or simply exists outside the scope of our senses.

Priver – please do repost this first chance you get – I’d like to hear atheists’ responses too.

In my experience, the word “God” or any derivative (e.g., deity, divine) makes many atheists nervous – because the assumption is that it’s our society’s current general definition of “supernatural God, accompanied by the various myths-presented-and-believed-as-facts by the numerous supernatural-based religions being practiced.” I’m speaking strictly from my experience with an active group of atheists I’ve known about a year now. I’ll ask some of them individually when the opportunity arises.

You say: “But if you're going to take away the idea of any deity from your kids, you've got to take away ALL of it. Get rid of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny. Drain them of any innocence and all wonder in the world. Spare them disappointment later on.”

This conclusion seems extreme and I personally don’t agree with it. Unlike religion, Santa, etc. are exposed as myths when children are still very young. When children themselves get wise of the unlikelihood of these gift-giving fantasy friends, their suspicions are confirmed by trusted adults (or mean older siblings). This is in stark contrast to religion, in which children and adults are taught and strongly encouraged to believe, despite their natural doubts, that the unlikely god in the sky and the questionable stories surrounding him are indeed fact-based and ought to be believed. When natural rationality interferes with their ability to believe, trusted adults and even society-sanctioned revered leaders encourage them to rely on faith, touting the benefits of faith without evidence.

Children are naturally full of imagination. Some invent imaginary friends of their own, whom they eventually shed as they mature. Psychologists tell parents not to worry about this phenomenon. It’s a natural development process for some children. Personally I haven’t heard one account of children being harmed by temporary belief in Santa or any other imaginary friend. (You’d think there’d be a whole literature on it, if such a widespread practice were actually dangerous to children). I do know of many accounts of children, adults and society being harmed by religion that requires belief in the supernatural.

Regarding “wonder in the world” – Many atheists are completely awe-struck by nature. Many are scientists who devote their lives to learning more about it – for the betterment of all of us. Instead of assuming “god did it” for anything not yet understood, they are intensely curious to investigate how nature works. Lucky for us they’ve been allowed to for the last few centuries, or we’d be back in the dark ages.

E Fav:

I wanted to mention before too how I felt that your questions came from an actual interest in wanting to know what someone else thought- you've
seemed to me to be a pretty thoughtful poster.. and I for one appreciate that. I have no problems with questions so long as there isn't an air of condescension that sometimes happens on these threads. Thanks for that. :)

I wonder how you would respond to a question I posed a long time ago and got one answer to from someone else. i'd love to put this up someplace where a lot of atheists congregate to see what kind of answers I'd get.

Pagans tend to see the links, commonalities in between all the different types of imagination, creativity, natural processes, and people's experiences, and seek to honor all of it, and use it in ways to heal self and others whenever possible. To not be naive, but proactive. To find a healthy balance, to question, always, but to enjoy the journey and use whatever means we have at our disposal to benefit those around us.

I wonder if the atheist sees the end results of these clashes, the power grabbing, etc. and want to get rid of any and all deity. Given the state of affairs today, I can't blame them. They do make some really great points.

Still, sometimes I want to say to them, 'hey, I understand your position. And even emphathize with a lot of it. But if you're going to take away the idea of any deity from your kids, you've got to take away ALL of it. Get rid of Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny. Drain them of any innocence and all wonder in the world. Spare them disappointment later on. I mean, at least be consistent about it.' I wonder how many would actually go for such a thing? Where does one draw the line?

At what age does one break a child's heart?

And why on the Mother's green mantle does being an adult in so many parts of the world have to mean having your innocence and sense of joy and wonder of the possibilities of what might be trampled on?

I'd be curious to know what others had to say about this idea too.

Chiguaga: "Christians in heaven are full of the Holy Ghost. They don’t need a digestive system or other internal organs."

But I'm taking about Jesus, not your average ordinary Christian. According to the Bible, the son of God went bodily to heaven. And there's nothing in the bible saying Jesus turned into a spirit once he got there, so he must have a digestive system and the whole works.

The Virgin mary is up there bodily too, (if you're Catholic), so she must need restroom facilities too.

Priver: "I certainly can respect their [atheists']position as long as they can respect mine."

Interesting – I’m having a discussion on another thread with a moderate Christian who is upset that I can respect HIM in many ways and can completely respect his right to believe what he wants, as long as it doesn’t impinge on me, yet not respect his position of belief in invisible supernatural beings and events.

In contrast, it’s easy for me to say that I respect Pagans’ position. It seems like another approach to the same material – nature - motivated by feeling rather than reason, without reliance on fantasy or superstition.

must have been subconscious (or unconscious as my typing might suggest)

Arminius,
LOL

The Animus is the personification of all masculine psychological tendencies within a woman, the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's unconscious.

A little Jung... ; )
terra

Questions,
Exactly what does your god look like?
How does your god inspire you to love?

You are compareing your Christian faith with a Pagan faith. It is like compareing a Peach with a Pomagranate.

terra

Victoria,

You said: "no animus- i didnt mean presonal pets or animals with ties to humans- i menat instinctively when they encounter other animals or even sickness in those they arent comfortable with"

Reply: OK, I'll buy that. But careful with our typing and spelling! (grin!)

Arminius

no animus- i didnt mean presonal pets or animals with ties to humans- i menat instinctively when they encounter other animals or even sickness in those they arent comfortable with

Wow! away for a little bit and the site is jumping. Go figure. :)

E Fav: you wrote

"However, you consider yourselves religious, right? and you do believe in gods, right? so you are "believers" sort of, is this right? You could also be thought of as naturalists, I think, which is a term atheists also identify with, but I don't think Christians would.

So I guess the next question is - if you don't mind -- which stance on god/religion seems closest to yours - the athiests' or that of religious people who believe in a supernatural god"

i never really thought about it but I guess I could be considered religious. I honor the turning of the Wheel of the Year and celebrate the Sabbats (the main seasonal holidays) with a joyous, loving group of people who enjoy coming together to honor the Divine in each of us, and to give back to the Earth.

I guess for me it's less about 'labels' and definitions and more about taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. To carefully consider what the consequences could be. And it's a never ending process.

When not celebrating, I enjoy learning about how Nature works, through science and other studies. I feel closest to the Divine when engaging in some sort of creative endeavor. It increases my appreciation and love for the place we all live on.

An act of worship for me can be as simple as harvesting herbs from my garden or kissing my husband. Therefore I'm always participating in and try to remain aware of the Divine around me.

My 'church' could just be a wooded glen and the 'service' could just be a song or poem. I learn to find meaning everywhere. It doesn't have to have all the elaborate trimmings of what constitutes a traditional religion. Having said that, I can say that the other Pagans I've met certainly know how to throw a party when they want to! :)

I really do understand where the atheist is coming from- and I agree with some of it, especially how religion can be used to justify horrible things-and I think they are often given a bad rep. There are some things that I disagree with them about, but I certainly can respect their position as long as they can respect mine.

Arminius asked:

>>Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

No

The Wiccan religion is like spittin into the wind.

Lots of Questions:

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

Lots of Questions:

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist?

>>Terra Gazelle:

>>Questions,
>>Who is Goddess? Life.

Interesting. Christians believe God is the giver of life. So you worship the creation, and do not beleive anything could have created the creation, as you and I do with our own hands in a much, much, muuuucch smaller way, that would merit our awe and worship?

>>What does She look like? You.Me. All.
So, below you state '..Goddess was old when the Hebrews were young....' and 'My goddess gave birth to your God'. I am assuming that you are saying that 'goddess' existed before what scripture states in Gen 1:1 (which was a recreation of the earth). I cant grasp what goddess was before mankind was if she looks like you, me and all.

>>Was Goddess passed down through the ages? Read the bible..Goddess was old when the Hebrews were young. An old bumper sticker comes to mind: "My Goddess gave birth to your God."

Obviously, the above is merely a myth that you/those who think similar to you have accepted. It seems to have merely a 'feel good' sound has some claim that Christian beliefs have. I know of no proof nor chronicled historical fact of a realm that existed before/along with/besides the Christian God.

>>NDE's? NDE's are not according to religion.
Seems many are considering it a type of spiritual experience in this blog. What type of spiritual experiece would an atheist, for example, encounter. Does the pagan believe that one who does not believe in God, gods, etc can be reincarnated?

>>A Pagan Bible? Well we sure have loads of books..which is what Bible is Greek for,A book. Do we have scripture? Yes, we have laws. We have myths. We have poetry and music and art. But it is not writ by any god...it is inspired by our love of the gods.

Does that mean your gods arent able to guide, write, or at least inspire toward love? What exactly is a 'god' to a pagan. Physical?

>>Reincarnation? Most Wiccans do not believwe that humans come back as anything but humans. We believe that thinking that a bad human will come back as an animal belittles the animal. A human comes back as a human. If you are a bigot, you may well come back as that person you were bigoted against. You will learn that lesson in your next life. An animal is what they are created to be, a man has choice.

Interesting. Who figured all this out and has been noted as the authority to know this really happens?

>>There is no head Pagan or Wiccan, though we have many leaders.

Seems so. Thanks for the reply. I personally believe that a creation is not to be praised or worshiped, rather tended to, appreciated and thankful for.. It would be the same in our realm if we praised the TV and not its inventor. I believe that it is logically safe to assume that our little speck in the universe is not a fluke....just as most good things that mankind can create with their hands and plan with their minds are not flukes.

Thanks for the responses, friends. I find this fascinating, no matter the cause. And I can tell a story:

My grandniece was born two years after my brother-in-law died. In form and moving, she is her grandfather. Just about the time she started saying real words, she went to visit my sister in NY. She went into the dining room where hangs a picture of her granddad as a young Marine. She looked at the picture, then at my sister, pointed and said, "PopPop!" That's the name his grandkids always called him. My sister asked her parents who told her that was PopPop in the picture. The weird thing was, no one had. A few weeks later she was visiting with her parents at my house. We were in the family room watching TV when she pointed at the ceiling over the sofa, yells, "PopPop", and started going a mile a minute in her own little language. We figure he's been visiting her. After all, a Marine wouldn't let something little like death keep him away from his grandkids. Semper Fi!

Terra,

You said,
"He had been in a great deal of pain...the kind of pain nothing really can help. His face had been tight with strugle and pain and then all of a sudden his face changed. His eyes opened and his face was calm...he smiled, slowly breathed and left.
I can not prove anything...but I know that he saw something that gave him peace."

I have never seen that. But I believe it.

Arminius

Victoria,
My Dad had fought cancer for a longer period of time then they gave him. When he left I was with him...he had fought so hard to the very end. I can not say that I saw any thing, but I truely believe he did.

He had been in a great deal of pain...the kind of pain nothing really can help. His face had been tight with strugle and pain and then all of a sudden his face changed. His eyes opened and his face was calm...he smiled, slowly breathed and left.
I can not prove anything...but I know that he saw something that gave him peace.

terra

Questions,
Who is Goddess? Life.

What does She look like? You.Me. All.

Was Goddess passed down through the ages? Read the bible..Goddess was old when the Hebrews were young. An old bumper sticker comes to mind: "My Goddess gave birth to your God."

NDE's? NDE's are not according to religion.

A Pagan Bible? Well we sure have loads of books..which is what Bible is Greek for,A book. Do we have scripture? Yes, we have laws. We have myths. We have poetry and music and art. But it is not writ by any god...it is inspired by our love of the gods.

Reincarnation? Most Wiccans do not believwe that humans come back as anything but humans. We believe that thinking that a bad human will come back as an animal belittles the animal. A human comes back as a human. If you are a bigot, you may well come back as that person you were bigoted against. You will learn that lesson in your next life. An animal is what they are created to be, a man has choice.

There is no head Pagan or Wiccan, though we have many leaders.

terra

>>E favorite:
>>Lots of questions: Are you Christian?
Does your answers to my questions depend on a yea or nay to that?
>>If so, do you really think bread and wine turn to flesh and blood?
No, I dont. They are symbolic of Christs shed blood and broken body. Helps us remember what Christ went through, as He intended it to be remembered in instruction to his disciples at the Passover. It replaced the old covenant with the new. Human beings need reminders in many respects. Including this one..for those who believe.

>>How does Jesus go to the bathroom in heaven?
How does 'goddess' go on earth (or whereever you believe 'she' 'lives')?

>>Are there Micky mouse clubbers in heaven?
John 3:13 should sufficiently answer your question here.

Do you know anything about pagans besides what you picked up from Sunday school?
>>Never discussed them in school classes on the Sabbath (Saturday...seventh day of the week). Wasnt the place to discuss other schools of thought. I was hoping someone on this blog knew something about pagans and the answers to the questions I had. That is why I asked.

>>Have you even heard of Aristotle and Plato? Did you know they were pagans?

Yes, men...dead and gone. Supeceded, carried on, built upon by Einstein, Newton, Timothy Leary, (Other names here), etc et. al.

E. Favorite writes: "How does Jesus go to the bathroom in heaven?"

ANSWER: Christians in heaven are full of the Holy Ghost. They don’t need a digestive system or other internal organs.

E. Favorite writes: "How does Jesus go to the bathroom in heaven?"

ANSWER: Christians in heaven are full of the Holy Ghost. They don’t need a digestive system or other internal organs.

E favorite stated:
>>Even though some denominations don't emphasize hell, as far as I know, none of them have decided it doesn't exist.

Actually, though relatively small in number, there are several non-denominational groups (ie groups that dont follow the Nicene crowd, etc) that realize, through scripture, there there exists no everlasting hell..only a consuming (gahenna) fire that will be only at judgement, reserved for those who will not wish to know God as he is, not as man has fashioned him. Additionally, these groups also see that scripture plainly speaks of several resurrections and that all that have died now sleep until the time of Christ's return, setting up of the millenial reign on earth, and finally the Great White throne judgement. Its all in scripture. No one sitting on clouds playing harps. No one turning on spits deep in the pits of the earth. All mythology, too...the adversary has decieved the world as a whole (Rev 12:9)

Lots of questions: Are you Christian?

If so, do you really think bread and wine turn to flesh and blood? How does Jesus go to the bathroom in heaven? Are there Micky mouse clubbers in heaven? Do you know anything about pagans besides what you picked up from Sunday school?

Have you even heard of Aristotle and Plato? Did you know they were pagans?

Hello wiccans...can you tell us who goddess is? What does she look like? How do you know what/who she is? Do you have a pagan bible or something similar? Was the story of goddess passed down through the ages or something like that? How are you so sure about 'goddess' yet many of you question Christian beliefs. What makes you so sure of yours?

Also, NDE's? Can you pagans only have them? How about Christians? Atheists? Mickey Mouse clubbers?

How can I come back as a monkey? or a dinosaur? This is very intruguing. Who decides how I come back? Or when? Is there a 'head pagan or wiccan' that passes out the return trip tickets?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Thanks

Victoria,

You said, "animals certainly do have a response to death- but it seems to be a repellent one for them".

I disagree. I think it is more compassionate and grieving. Dogs especially. But maybe it has to do with whom they love.

Is BAMBI a pagan goddess?

Lep! Hail, and Well Met!

A Guiness! You wound me to the heart, er, stomach. Here I am drinking American yellow beer, instead of the nectar of my forefathers. Ah, well, I am glad for you, and thanks for thinking of me.

Well, we're all gathering. Time for song and dance? And yummy Cajun food?!?

Arminius

Arminius, merry meet! How have you been? I thought of you the other day while savoring a Guiness....

hi wiccan- i posted a story on the main blog about my brother when he was dying that is similar- he saw what i later thought was the angel of death- and died 2 hours later.

ive spent alot of my life in hospices with those waiting to die, and in hospitals with those in the direct process-

one of my dearest friends in the world is a gay episcopalian priest- who for the past 30 years has spent almost every single day of his life sitting bedside with the dying-
weve had this conversation many times-

in hospice and hospital situations, it is often difficult to get a real feel for what is real and what is the result of opiates-

ive certainly had many supernatural experiences in my life, but not related to death.

i am confirmed that there are unseen forces that are active in this mortal sphere-

i was actually expectng to see some stories on this blog, which is why i came here

animals certainly do have a response to death- but it seems to be a repellent one for them

the hospice cat is certainly tangible evidence of the unseen affecting the seen

Wiccan: "I wondered if anyone else had heard of these "soul guides" appearing to usher the dying over to the other side"

The hospice nurses told us to watch for it when my uncle was dying, because it meant he would go soon. They did not refer to them as "soul guides" though, or give any indication that it was anything but a typical phenomenon of dying. I was there at one point when my uncle was calling out to some of our mutual deceased family members - using their ancient nicknames. It was lovely.

Yo, A...

Nay...I did not see goddess nor has anyone else I know.

Know ye, I am beginning to think she be a figment of the imagination of some minds. Possibly envisioned by and through a leaping gnome (or in this case, gnomette)...or perhaps a unicorn with the head of a greek babe. Or possibly even a jackalope.

Know ye what I mean? Say I..a fairytale.

Later,

V

Ave, Wiccan!

Indeed, so far this discussion has been an Oasis of Civilization compared to other threads. Only a matter of time, I fear, before the nutcases get here. Ah, well, we will endure.

As to what you witnessed at the passing of your brother-in-law: that is something beyond me. I cannot speak against it, though, especially given the experience of my sister.

Arminius

Vesuvius,

By chance, did you see goddess at the town square the night afore?

Give me a sign if you did. Ho, I do not know what she looks like. Many talk of her, but alas, no one has ever seen her or has broken wind with her.

Later, dude.

A

Merry Meat!....

Is good to eat..

Especially..

When cooked with heat!

Dia Duit, Arminius, and Blessed Be to all. Yes, it is nice to have a hiding place from all the Sturm and Drang on the other threads. :-)

I've been reading about some NDEs on the other threads, but none that have answered my question. Before my brother-in-law passed over he would talk to people that my sister and I couldn't see. This happened on two occasions that I witnessed. I told one of my co-workers about this, and she said she had the same experience before her mother-in-law died. She also said that the hospice workers told her it happens frequently. I wondered if anyone else had heard of these "soul guides" appearing to usher the dying over to the other side?

The fool in his heart says there are no pixies.

"death as a journey...." And we think that is an original idea? Just because one puts ideas in natural, poetic-imaged scenes certainly does not make it so.

Terra,

Well met indeed, and thanks!

I wish that Starhawk would be called upon more often to reply to the questions here. She writes beautifully, and makes a lot of sense.

Arminius

Arminius,
Well Met and Blessed be!
It seems that the only place we all can meet up is on Starhawk's comment page, and unfortunatly there are not enough questions that are condusive for her to answer.

It is good to see you though.

NDE's are real...and can be transformational. I don't know a Pagan that is really afraid of death. I think its because we expect a wonderful place, because our gods would not give a stone to a thirsty child.

Terra

E Favorite,

What Lepi said!
lol...I have been trying to answer that question and kept on deleting, because it just wasn't right. Lepi said it beautifully. (Thanks sis)

If you mean Supernatural such as in haunted house or apparitions in togas...no.

Do you believe in Justice? Yes? and you can see Justice as a Lady with a blind fold and a scale...we call her by Her Roman name of Justitia and the Greek Goddess name of Themis.

Themis was one of the Titans, the children of Ouranos (Sky/Chaos) and Gaia (Earth/Form).

In Homer, Themis is "imposing some kind of order or control over gatherings...." Sometimes Themis is called the mother of the Moirai and the Horai (Dike [Justice], Eirene [Peace], and Eunomia [Lawful Government].

Now is Justice Supernatural? It is an energy that is real, but that we can not see before it's action makes it self felt. When I ask for Justice, I call on my personal Goddess that handles Justice...Hecate. Does it make her less "real" as a preveyor of justice because you can not see her? Justice is real, and that energy I call Hecate is real.

When I called on Demeter during the past harvest season and thanked Her for the abundance of crops...She is the Force of Creation that brings the wheat, corn and growth of the fields. Is She real? yep...She is the force of growth that sustains us. Because I choose to call Her Demeter does not make that energy of seed and root, and stem and bud,and leaf and flower and fruit less real.

Our Gods are real and part of nature. We are an imaginative people...our rites are spake in Rhyme, poetry is our scripture. Our Gods are real, as real as nature, love and hope.

terra

The Moderate,
I need to define my religion..it is more pre classical ecclectic.

I am not a reconstructionist of the Greek religion, I am Wiccan. So my gods are more nature oriented. We tend more toward the Titans and the second gen gods...

The Gods started in the cradle of civilization and migrated with people and trade outward. On the journey through different cultures and eras the gods had name changes, but amazingly most kept their attributes.So gods from different cultures are very simular.

So while I honor the pre classical Greek/Roman gods, I do so in a Wiccan frame work.

terra

Pagans, Well Met!

Lord, but it's good to be where you are gathered again. You too, E-Fav!

I've got to read all these posts in depth, just wanted to say I am interested in all you have to say.

And... my sister, rest her spirit, had a NDE after a serious car accident. No, not the tunnel with the light. She talked to a light that told here that she must go back, as she wanted, because she was not finished. She remained Christian, but was forever changed, and had no fear of death thereafter.

God bless all,

Arminius

E-fave:
**Then I got to thinking that Pagans probably don't believe in supernatural Gods either and it sounds like you don't.
However, you consider yourselves religious, right? and you do believe in gods, right? so you are "believers" sort of, is this right? You could also be thought of as naturalists, I think, which is a term atheists also identify with, but I don't think Christians would.
So I guess the next question is - if you don't mind -- which stance on god/religion seems closest to yours - the athiests' or that of religious people who believe in a supernatural god?**

I most definitely consider myself religious, but not in terms of "supernatural" deities.
The way I see it, we and every other living thing from amoebae to geraniums to blue whales are part of the living Universe. However, the Universe is more than the sum of its parts. It's a relational/generative thing, like a person. I have half my dad's DNA and half my mom's DNA, but she is more than just my mom's eyes + my dad's chin. There are parts of me as an entity that exceed what they contributed to my existence. I am co-creator with them of the entity known as Me. In the same way, the Universal One is more than just the sum of all the beings living in it. We and it are co-creators of each other. So in essence (and in Essesnce), ALL are divine.

So to answer your question, there are aspects of atheism that resonate with my beliefs, since I don't acknowledge the existence of "supernatural" beings, but at the sime time, the idea that Divinity is within puts me, if not on the same page as the Gnostics, at least in the same library.

Chiguaga:
**If pagans don’t believe in Satan, then they don’t have any moral basis to know what is good or what is bad. They live in a moral vacuum.**

Again I say nope. Since Pagans believe that all existence is interconnected, we know that any harm we do to others we do to ourselves in the process. That knowledge is a pretty strong incentive to do that which serves the greater good.

**By the way, pagans believe in centaurs, talking deer, goblins jumping around the forest, etc, Please GROW UP!**

You've never actually spent any time discussing theo/thealogy with real Pagans, have you?
By the way, do you Christains still believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys?

Merry Meet,merry meet.O how sweet.
At last a site for those of us who believe in Fairies! At last! I KNEW there were fairies,but neighbors thought I was losing it.
I feel almost giddy with delight.
We have fairies here in our garden but people don't believe me.They have been there for many years;mother says they go back to the beginning of time.
They survive only because they keep out of sight.
Once spotted,they die.I used to try to see them until I realized that.Now I don't. I just accept the truth.They exist! Real actual fairies!
I never hid the fact that I was a believer,and always wore a small Tinkerbell bell and star,pinned to my coat at school,and would tell anyone who asked that it meant I believed in Tinkerbell and the little folks.
It didn't always go down well.Some thought I was silly,but I didn't care.In fact when others laughed at me,it only made me believe more.
I pray to them every night,like mom does.
We have a special way of praying,with our hands over our ears to keep the world out,and help to concentrate our minds on the little people.
Foolish folk call to my mom, and giggle and shout things that I won't repeat.It doesn't bother us.
As mother says,only idiots don't believe in fairies.Only fools are skeptical of the obvious.
Starhawk I love you,and your cutesy name.
Merry-bye-bye.

The discussion of community is directly in line with Catholic beliefs on the communion of saints, which refers to not just to saints of the Church, but to all the dead. Don't forget, Catholicism is based a lot on paganism, though some would not like to admit that.

E Favorite

It seems to me that nothing is supernatural in the true sense of the word. Just because there are things in the multiverse that are beyond our understanding doesn’t make them beyond nature. I think I know what you’re getting at – an anthropomorphic being removed from his creation while looking down and playing with it- but no, I don’t think many Pagans see it like that. Probably most see their Gods and Goddesses as useful metaphors, more poetic than literal. It’s more Pantheism that anything, seeing the world as a living interactive immanence that tends to offend atheist, theists and deists equally.

Chiguaga, your statement that "*If pagans don’t believe in Satan, then they don’t have any moral basis to know what is good or what is bad. They live in a moral vacuum*" is obviously and patently false. Plato, Aristotle, Gilgamesh, and other ancient Pagans lived long before any Christian notion of "Satan" and constructed sturdy moral philosophies that are studied to this day. Other religions, from Confucianism and Taoism to Hinduism and Buddhism have no notion of a supreme personal source of evil, yet have long and proud traditions of ethical thought. If you wish other people to take your comments seriously, then you should consider whether they fit historical fact.

And regardless of what Pagans may or may not believe about Other-Than-Human-Sacred-Persons (as Native Americans and many other religions do), it is certainly no less believable than professing faith in what other religions might characterize as a "resurrected Jewish zombie."

Dear locomoco:

"As a practicing Christian, I long ago rejected the "eternal torment in hell" theology as being completely inconsistent with the concept of a loving creator who made each of us as unique souls, sparks of the divine fire."

Well said. I, too, have always had a problem with the idea of infinite punishment for finite sin as sound doctrine.

C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce discusses this at length. His thesis is that some souls choose to separate themselves from God, and God allows this as part of allowing independent beings to exist. A tiny place not illuminated by God's presence is reserved for these souls so that they may freely choose to live apart. It is called "Hell" by some, because of what these souls loose by choice.

Dear Terra:

"I am of the Greco-Roman tradition."

Me too. Along my path from Atheism, I found a great interest in the Greco-Roman traditions. It was kind of funny, really. For the first forty years of my life I read everything focused on the future. Then it began to dawn on me that I would not live forever. I sought to learn from cultures that were much closer to the whole cycle of life, death, and rebirth. I did some readings on Greco-Roman Paganism, and found much there that is useful to understanding how to live and die well.

I also studied with some Christians who were quite accepting of my whole history. Very nice people, they are. On the whole, I find the religious, be they Jews, Christians, Pagans, or Unitarians, to be more at peace than those who are completely out of touch with (the) God(s). I also find that, as much as the modern secularists struggle to deny it, science and religion have developed together and until quite recently have supported each other. Of course you have to get past the front pages and into the actual history to find that.

A couple of other books next on my reading list that might interest a fellow Greco-Roman are:

Philip Freeman: “The Philosopher and the Druids”
Christopher Faraone and Dirk Obbink: “Magika Hiera”

All the best

Chiguaga,

I don't know any Pagans who believe in "centaurs, talking deer, goblins jumping around in the forest", at least not in the literal sense. I don't know where you get your information on Paganism, but it doesn't sound like an informed source.

I also disagree that you need to believe in Satan in order to have a moral basis to know good from bad. The concepts of good and bad are culturally derived values. The culture from which Christianity sprang assigned what they considered "bad" to Satan and the "good" to God. At least, that's my opinion.

What is cool about Pagans is that they don't try to shove their beliefs down the throats of other like the religions of Abraham. Read the Pagan posts - friendly, sincere, easy going. Compare them to the know-it-all punitive, bossy, judgemental attitude of Chiguaga above. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Lepi, Terra, Priver, Paganplace -- I asked about supernatural Gods abecause I thought that was the one absolute distinction between atheists and believers. For instance, both could be rational (most of the time) freethinking,, liberal/ conservative, smart/dumb, nice/nasty, sensitive/ doltish, etc. But the one thing that separates them is their position on belief in invisible supernatural beings.

Then I got to thinking that Pagans probably don't believe in supernatural Gods either and it sounds like you don't.

However, you consider yourselves religious, right? and you do believe in gods, right? so you are "believers" sort of, is this right? You could also be thought of as naturalists, I think, which is a term atheists also identify with, but I don't think Christians would.

So I guess the next question is - if you don't mind -- which stance on god/religion seems closest to yours - the athiests' or that of religious people who believe in a supernatural god?

Thanks.

If pagans don’t believe in Satan, then they don’t have any moral basis to know what is good or what is bad. They live in a moral vacuum.
By the way, pagans believe in centaurs, talking deer, goblins jumping around the forest, etc, Please GROW UP!

Chiguaga:
Paganism is the doctrine of SATAN.

Nope. Pagans do not believe in the existnece of Satan, and you can't worship that which you don't believe exists. Satan belongs to the Christians and you can keep him. We Pagans have no need of him.

A sucker suckling a sucker? Ya Ya

LOCOMOCO,
Welcome to the family!

; ) There will certainly be some that will not appreciate your feelings.

I have a student that is a Christian pastor. He set out to find out the truth about Witches...and was led to me. Well that was many years ago and he and I are close friends and he knows that he is Christian, but has discovered he has a place in his heart for the Goddess and the wisdoms we can teach.

I also have gone to him for different things. We are not enemies, but trusted friends. We each have something that can aid the other...

Blessed be,
terra

Please, everyone, know that all Pagans do not share Starhawk's beliefs of the afterlife. For her to make a blanket statement like that is harmful to the very differences that lie within the Pagan community.

Chiguaga:
Paganism is the doctrine of SATAN.

Well if it is, he goofed up...a doctrine by something you do not believe in is a failure from the start, isn't it?

We have a guide that says...Do what ye will, but harm none. Well that kind of creates a stumbling block for your god of evil.Because we have to think about what our deeds will effect. Will what we do bring harm to anyone?

You believe in that being, he is your evil god. You have given it more power then your good God. He is a non- entity to us. He is not in our pantheon. In other words, he's not a member of our myths, not in our lives...he is a big part of your's. You have made him into a god.

So you follow satan's doctrine, for you give it credance. And to a Witch what you give strength to, you give power over you.
terra

Paganism is the doctrine of SATAN.

When I was a little kid,I became aware that death was death,and that paradise didn't make sense.
Maybe dead bugs,dead ants,the odd dead mouse,taught me that dead means dead.I'm not sure.But when grown ups talked of heaven and the afterlife,I knew in my bones it was not true.
I still feel that way.

Locomoco - thanks for your post. You sound more like a pagan than a "practicing Christian" to me. I wonder what the pagans will think.

I'm assuming by "practicing," you mean you attend church. Do you mention this point of view to your fellow parishioners and clergy? If so, how do they respond. Also, as pleasant and reasonable as it sounds, it goes against Christian doctrine as I understand it. Even though some denominations don't emphasize hell, as far as I know, none of them have decided it doesn't exist.

LOCOMOCO:

Welcome to the family.

LOCOMOCO:

Welcome to the family.

Thanks, Starhawk, for sharing your insights from the Reclaiming tradition. I also appreciate that you titled your piece "A Pagan view of Death," rather than "The Pagan View of Death." Many of us have our own covenants with our own Gods and Goddesses, and I'm glad to see that you and many others recognize that there can be more than one Pagan pathway. I hope that more people will realize you were being descriptive rather than prescriptive.

It's a pleasure to hang out with wiccans because as a whole, y'all are so much more openminded. (Though I see a couple of exclusionists have crept into the big circle, even so...)

As a practicing Christian, I long ago rejected the "eternal torment in hell" theology as being completely inconsistent with the concept of a loving creator who made each of us as unique souls, sparks of the divine fire.

No such creator would lovingly birth us and then condemn us to be tortured throughout eternity. Not under any circumstances.

This physical life is a precious gift, not "in spite of", but precisely "because of" all its temptations, inevitable setbacks, frustrations and our physical infirmities that ultimately devolve into "death".

What makes it so precious is that these represent a spiritual "obstacle course" much more challenging than any we could face in the discarnate state. As such, we are given the rare opportunity for a crash course in spiritual growth; it's up to each of us to see how much we can make of this opportunity.

Here, we are given a power to create and nurture new life in a manner not available to us in our spirit form. It is, therefore, a perfect "boot camp" for all of us wannabee co-creators. And we cannot achieve our intended stature as such, until we have thoroughly grasped the nature of cause and effect, and how our choices beget consequences. Our physical world, governed by linear time, demonstrates these consequences unequivocally and rigorously -- hence -- "Schoolhouse Earth".

In spirit form once again, we can recuperate in our Summerlands, review the successes and failures of our most recent efforts, and map out the next steps of the path that leads us ever on and on. The study, practice and learning continue apace, of course; but the focus is necessarily different.

What a rare and challenging time to be here! What marvelous opportunities for rapid growth! Let's help one another along the way rather than tearing each other down -- can we try?

not everybody under the christian umbrella condemns people to heaven or to hell, although the christians who would do those things would tell the non-condemners they were going to hell.

just didn't want to be lumped in and wanted to defend a sector of christianity that by default gets a bad rap.

The Moderate:

Starhawk's books are wonderful reads, and even though I don't always agree with everything she says (the history is quite a bit more scattered rather than one direct lineage) I can certainly respect her for illuminating one path of many.

And I really respect her for being able to go out and stand up for what's right, without being asked to, often at her own peril. She doesn't just talk about doing things, she is one of the first ones there in a time of crisis. A lot of people have read her work and suddenly found that they had a spiritual home in Paganism. There is much that she offers.. and she's not the only one.

Neo-Paganism isn't based off of any 'one' tradition.. it's an umbrella term for a wide range of belief systems, some of which may have Celtic elements, and some of which may not. The Celts did exchange ideas and information with the Greeks and Romans even while assimilating into a new society, so there is much common ground.

E Fav:

I guess what probably needs to be said here is what's been assumed is already understood- that what we call 'Divine' or 'God/dess' is not something outside of us or outside of Nature. The aforementioned mystical experiences/NDEs are a part of the human experience. Therefore, they are a part of Nature- just one that we can't empiricize.

For Pagans the universe we live in is somehow alive- and somehow self aware. It makes its presence known in such subtle ways that we often overlook it until such overwhelming emotion- whether found in relationshps, creative endeavors or the natural world- smacks us over the head and forces our jaws to drop and yells at us to pay attention.

When you see the Divine everywhere, in everything, you try as hard as you can to understand and work with Nature-learn about it, on its own terms, honor it, preserve it as best you can.

Derek,
Sometimes it is a remembering.

terra

The Moderate,
Some are Celtic, some are not... We call on many different gods.

We do not make such a big deal out of having different gods...I can honor Hecate and another can honor Morrigan, but we can share a circle and worship together...in perfect trust.

I have been in huge circles of almost a thousand and maybe there could be many thousands of gods revered...but it did not take away the joy or the love we all felt.

There are many Celtic Witches...there are many that start in that Pantheon but grow out of it. There is choice. I started in it and soon decided I did not have a connection to those gods.

I am of the Greco-Roman tradition.

terra

Dear fcsanders:

"When your mind dies you die with it.You are your mind and it's a function of the physical brain....period."

Then we are truly "computers made out of meat" lost in an uncaring universe? Possibly. But not probably. And certainly not "...period." It may be that the Universe presents evidence to the contrary.

Dear Starhawk,

Or should I say Merry Meet? I am always interested in understanding more about the religions, and your essay gives me welcome occasion to learn of your views and doctrines. Thank you for the kind apology (in my theological tradition that means “defense”) of the modern Pagan doctrines on the great cycle of life.

A couple of interesting books I have found recently on Pagan religion that may be of interest to some of the regulars here include:

Iamblichus: “Theurgy of the soul”
Iamblichus: “On the Mysteries”
Peter Kreeft: “Christianity for Modern Pagans – Pascal’s Pensées”
Marcus Aurelius: “Meditations”

I shall get you’re your Spiral Dance book. If it is as thoughtful as your essays here I am sure it will be a great read. Most of my knowledge of Pagan Cult comes from the Greco-Roman writers who are probably a bit out of date after two thousand years on the shelf. Do I take it correctly that neo-Paganism is more firmly anchored to Celtic tradition than Greco-Roman?

Thanks for the thoughts, and all the best.

Priver, Paganplace, Terra, Lepi, - thanks for your responses. I’ll wait a bit to see if others respond, then tell you why I asked

FCSanders, you are mistakeing the mind with the brain...two different things. The brain is an organ that we can hold and see...the mind is our conscousness. Both can be diseased, but one we can operate on and the other we can only treat in other ways.

They both exist but only one is visible.

The brain can be diseased, the mind healthy...and visa versa.

The brain is like a computer, made of many smaller parts. The Consciousness does not understand words... but pictures, sounds, symbols, colors...etc, and is a unity. Our consiousness is part of who we are...we are more then the brain, if it becomes damaged we are still who we are.

The brain may die but does the mind- the consciousness?

terra

terra

When your mind dies you die with it.You are your mind and it's a function of the physical brain....period.

Abby,

The question was how you see the after life. So Starhawk, I and others answered that question...you don't like what Starhawk said, give your own answer.
Starhawk has her own tradition, as I do...she answers according to her's, I answer according to mine.

Paganism covers alot of ground...there are many religions and traditions under it's umbrella. No Pagan can answer for each one that calls themselves Pagan.

Starhawk takes her time to answer these questions and to be a presence here for the Pagan community. She is the token Pagan but at least she is here..and she is a beautiful example of who we are. So, if she does not represent your tradition...do it yourself.

I am curious on what your view of the after life is.
~~

Good Goddess,
Pretentious? Arrogant? quite a name.

~~
E. Favorite,
A supernatural god/s? Yes and no.

First what is meant by supernatural? Do you mean out side of nature? Super Natural (Ultra Natural)?

Well...my deities are of nature. There is nothing outside of nature.

I think people kind of see nature as the trees and rivers and mountains and of course the wild animals...but that is it.

They see their God as a seperate being...That god is seperate from it's creation. It's all very psycotic.

I will not go into it, there is no time. But in Starhawk's book, Spiral Dance, a question is asked.."Do you believe in the gods?" The answer is, "do you believe in rocks?"

~~~
John Griffin,

cut an apple crosswise. There you will see the Pentagram...ancient symbol of protection, rebirth, wisdom. It has been important to almost every ancient culture; from the Mayans of Latin America, to India, China, Greece, and Egypt. It has been found scratched on the walls of Neolithic caves, and in Babylonian drawings, where it marks the pattern the planet Venus makes on its travels- a secret symbol of the Goddess.

The pentagram is seen as the microcosm of the universe, and has been the symbol of many Goddesses as well as Man.The five points bring together the four corners of the world with Spirit on top above all.

Witches and Pagans in general can take a small thing and see something huge. An acorn is seen as a symbol of our god...an acorn has within it a forest.

An apple also is balance and seen as representing a core belief...the fruit of the apple is healthy and good for you...the seeds contain poison-arsnic. A symbol that there is always death in life...and life in death. So The Isle of Apples is one name of our after world.

terra

E favorite:
Merry Meet, indeed.

Would you say you believe in supernatural Gods?
and/or - If someone asked "Do you believe in God(s)?" - how would you answer?

Would appreciate responses from any/all of you lovely pagans**

I can't speak for all Pagans, but I'll gladly give you my view.
First, define "supernatural" - I believe that all beings - from slime molds to deities - are part of the "natural." So if you're asking if I believe in gods that exist outside the realm of the natural world, that there is a "heaven" somewhere that on no way interacts with the physical world in which we live and die, then I'd have to say No.

For me the Divine - the gods and goddesses - are not entities separate from myself to whom I offer petitionary prayers and who must be appeased in order for me to escape their wrath, but simply aspects of the living Universe of whom I am a part, not from whom I am apart.
There is no separation between mundane and divine - it's all inextricably intertwined. I am in the presence of the Divine when I wake up in the morning and smell the cup of coffee my husband has placed on my nightstand. I'm in the presence of the Divine when I'm standing in the kitchen in my pj's pullng veggies out of the fridge to feed the rabbits and making sandwiches for the girls to take to schol for their lunches. I'm in the presence of the Divine when my daughter kisses me goodbye and shouts "Love you, Mama" over her shoulder as she's racing out the door to avoid being late for school. I'm in the presence of the Divine when I weed the garden and when I clean the litter boxes. I'm in the presence of the Divine when we have friends over to play cards. (Speaking of which, they'll be here soon, so I ned to finish getting ready).

I hope that makes things a little clearer for you.

I like the poetic flow of your explanation, you have a talent for writing. The idea your words express is comforting and I even enjoy the thoughts and emotions evoked. It's also wishful thinking. I do, however, have a serious question. Why apples?

Yous curiously--

Nameless:
**Dear Pagans,

Why trouble with life if we do not know the origin of life?**

Just because I don't attribute my origins to your god doesn't mean that I don't have my own beliefs about those origins. And even if I had no particular beliefs about the origins of life, why would that prevent me from enjoying it? I have no idea where the lone purple flower that appeared in my garden the other morning came from - I didn't plant it, and i've never seen anything like it before. It's still lovely,a nd I will enjoy it's beauty as long as it lasts, even though I have no clue as to its origins.

**Who has been creating life has always been capable of preserving us (you and me) in the life after death. What is the joy of life if we do not have hope in the life after death?**

Dearest, the joy in life is in the living of it. I'm alive, there are people, animals, and plants whose presence in my life gives me joy, there are activities I engage in that I enjoy, the list goes on and on. If the only thing that mattered was the life after death, then why would I have any reason to go on living? Why would I not hasten my death in order to enjoy the life after death that much sooner?

**Have you tried to believe in Jesus Christ, the giver of life? Try Jesus and I’m sure you will like the heavenly life after death.**

I tried Jesus - didn't work for me. He seems to have been a really nice guy who had some good ideas about how to treat other people, but I don't believe that he was a god. And the Christian concept of heaven really doesn't appeal to me anyway.

I resent Starhawk cavalierly representing her rather narrow Reclaiming Wiccan belief as the beliefs of the Pagan Community and spouting her views as if they were ours. Some Pagan share her beliefs about death, but many do not. Not all Pagans are so Eurocentric.

It would be far better if Starhawk had stated that these were HER beliefs. Starhawk does not represent me, and has no right to speak for me as a Pagan, and never has.

Abby

Thank you very much for printing " A Pagan View of Death". As I read each sentence, I found myself completely identifying with each comment as something that I have also seen these things as self evident.
It was both eloquently told, and complete in it's message. I have never responded to anything before. This article feels like you are being told something that you heard along time ago, but forgot along the way.

Pretensiousness and arrogance are not the monopoly of Christians it seems.

Namaste Starhawk

Growing up as a Methodist Minister's daughter, I had no concepts of birth and death, except heaven and hell, until the age of 12 when I started looking at Native American spirituality. I wasn't one of those people who just knew and always believed that people came back as other people.

So in stepping from one religion to another, it was like rewriting not only the way I viewed the world around me, but the way I thought, spoke, and lived my life. The beliefs were so patently different, that it was like being reawakened after a long state of sleep.

And from that reawakening, I viewed the beliefs I had taken for granted as a child with eyes of disbelief. I didn't understand how people could believe in just one deity by such a generic name as God, and deify his son in the same sentence.

But as one grows, one learns that while our beliefs are perfect for us, they do not apply to all and sundry. The monotheistic religions have their place for people that have a certain need, just as ours offer comfort to us. It doesn't mean their wrong, it just means their different.

So when I look at my Christian brethren, as they tell me I'm going to burn in hell, I don't see separates. I see human beings, kindred, whether anyone else believes it or not. Despite differing beliefs in death and the afterlife, I see many paths leading to the same door. And from there, their words wash away like raindrops upon a windshield. Who's right......who's wrong....it doesn't really matter once you step off the path and walk through the door.

Hi Jihadist,

For most of the Pagans I've met, there seems to be a wide range of belief about what happens after we die. No two that I know have really reached an agreement. Can't speak for everyone though. It's just been my experience.

E Fav:

"Would you say you believe in supernatural Gods?
and/or - If someone asked "Do you believe in God(s)?" - how would you answer?"

I guess you could say that I'm in the same camp as those here who have said that what if Nature includes stuff that we don't understand/can't yet measure empirically. Sorta have to redefine what constitutes Natural vs. 'Supernatural.' Some Pagans will say that what is perceived through those NDE/out of body/mystical experiences is aspects of our own psychology, getting us to pay attention to what needs it. Others will say differently. Most likely it'll depend on who you ask.

Maybe it's just me but I really don't understand why it's illogical somehow to see cycles of life, death and rebirth in Nature and to think that maybe death works the same way.

What really puzzles me is when I ask some folks about the Christian heaven. Wouldn't Jesus/God know if you were lying about believing in them just to 'hedge your bets' a la Occam's Razor? If lying is supposed to be one of the 'Big 10', as it were, then the exercise is useless regardless.

Besides, why would I want to be someplace where my loved ones aren't just by virtue of being born to others or not thinking like everyone else?

I think we may all be surprised after we're dead. How about this- we'll have a good laugh over our misconceptions- reverence and mirth, you know- and I'll bring the cakes and ale. :) What do you say?

I'm not sure how to respond in kind, there. :)

May your reason and dreams share housing harmoniously. :)

May your delusions continue to support you.

Or you could just call us a bunch of foot loops who don't come on the Internet and demand the 'Way, Truth, And Life' lies in deny ing anyone has a subconscious.

You could do that, too. :)

Well, Rungus:

"Well, it's reassuring to find that pagan beliefs about life and death can be every bit as goofy as those of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses."

Goofy available on request. :)

Did you need it to be deadly serious? We do that, too.

" What I find interesting is that, in the posted comments on the article, there is a less harsh and acrimonious response than one often sees here to articles either for against the standard book religions. Why is that, I wonder?"

Could have something to do with not threatening people over bacon cheeseburgers and committed relationships or how to read St Paul's pronouncements on eternity as if the comma had been invented yet? :)

"Because paganism is seen as enderaingly whacky and fringe, and certainly less threatening than the triumphalist ravings of Christians and Muslims?"

Yes, we're just wacky. Please humor us. Go respect the maniacs. :)

Like I said, 'Truth' is cheap, information costs.

You get enough information to say, 'OK, this is real, time to deal,' then you neither need to be grandiose, nor use rationalism as a defense against the insanity of certain others' perceptions.

People are afraid in existential ways they were sold on... Either they're being bold and rationalist, or faithful and righteous, and neither sector is *dealing with what is.*

Talk about psychology, well, everyone has something like complex PTSD about the world.

Neither being scared s---less of something and trying to appease it nor being determined to drive away everything but the 'objective' from consciousness is the way.

As for how I 'make the leap' of previous lives, ...well, the first things I can remember in this one were of experience in the last one, of which it turns out someone keeps excellent records. :)

And, no, I won't specify. You know why?

Comes a point where you don't need to 'prove' nothing and it becomes life again.

You're not obligated to believe anythign you don't want to.

Kind of tired of people insisting spirit and reason are at odds, though. Tends to mean people throw reason out the window the moment something feels 'real' enough.

Real enough as it is.

Imagine someone who don't live in your world of 'Does this God exist or not and that's all that matters.'

You might think there was a whole multiverse out there for us or something. :)

Well, it's reassuring to find that pagan beliefs about life and death can be every bit as goofy as those of Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. What I find interesting is that, in the posted comments on the article, there is a less harsh and acrimonious response than one often sees here to articles either for against the standard book religions. Why is that, I wonder? Because paganism is seen as enderaingly whacky and fringe, and certainly less threatening than the triumphalist ravings of Christians and Muslims?

Sorry, paganplace.. My assertions were merely that I could not reason, or even imagine that what appears to be neuron misfires and chemical tricks are anything other than that. How does one make or justify the leap that previous lives occured and what is the metaphysical vs. physical significance of an NDE?
Thanks.. I'm really not just tugging your chain here..

Hi, E-fave! :) Nice to see you. :)

"Would you say you believe in supernatural Gods?
and/or - If someone asked "Do you believe in God(s)?" - how would you answer?"

This would really depend on how you defined 'supernatural.'

If you mean 'apart from Nature,' prolly not.

It's actually a different paradigm.

Do we think there's more to the universe than can be proven with repeatable experiments?

Usually. Not necessarily, though.

What would you like to see next? :)

OK, Sock... *jacking down a notch.* Do you know the premises of what you asserted, or did you just start assuming something about em? :)

Paganplace...
Thank you for the wonderously swift reply!

With all due respect though I have no idea what you said... could you jack it down a notch or to for a poor layman?

thanks.
DSP

Merry Meet - so THIS is where you all went off to. I posted this on the Epstein thread earlier today:

I was hoping I'd see you gathered somewhere soon, because I have a question for you.

Would you say you believe in supernatural Gods?
and/or - If someone asked "Do you believe in God(s)?" - how would you answer?

Would appreciate responses from any/all of you lovely pagans

thanks

She turned me into a newt!

Anyway, Sock Puppet. Very valid questions.

Yes, the NDE is "real" in that it's an *experience* (that's the E.) ...that has in fact been independently documented. As mentioned above, I've been through it in this life. One and a half times. :) (OK, the first time it was just so funny I managed to not-suffocate. :))

People may take all manner of things from this experience, (including theology they may be primed with.) but I assure you the experience happens.

One of my little axioms is: ''Truth' is cheap, information costs.' Jangle the right neurons and anyone will think they have touched Ultimate Truth... But, information is a lot easier to check up on, if you're that sort of person.

It's very possible that all my *experiences* don't mean in some 'absolute' sense what I take them to mean. But the *information* is there. It's possible I could be imagining the sense that past-life memories are 'me,' but the fact is the information gained exists.

Happens I spent a lot of my young life in my own personal X-files. Too often, people hasten to say 'If I use reason, I must conclude there is nothing to these experiences: the whole world must be stupid, even if they somehow managed to not die while relying on this.'

On the other hand, it too often happens that the first time someone experiences something 'supernatural,' they will either go into denial as soon as they can, or... decide that reason is bunk and become overly-credulous of everything that springs to mind.

Reason is good, but some distant objective observer, whether you name it 'God' or 'Empirical Reality' ...isn't where humans really live.

We're in it, right now. And it doesn't have to suck.

Have no fear, PaganPlace, your post was precisely long enough to say what needed to be said. And very gracefully, at that. :-)

Wow, that was long. I hope it was worth reading. :)

Hi, Nameless... And, Jihadist, good to see you again. :)

Anyway, Nameless, it seems you may just have not read or understood the Pagan positions here, when you said this:

"Dear Pagans,

"Why trouble with life if we do not know the origin of life?"

To this I'd say, a) who says we don't have our own stories of this, and b) Who taught you it was necessary to know origins for there to be meaning in what is?

" Who has been creating life has always been capable of preserving us (you and me) in the life after death. What is the joy of life if we do not have hope in the life after death?"

We would say that the joy in life is *inherent* to life, not dependent upon any particular afterlife or next-life or between-life....

It just so happens that a lot of us believe in or know about (or think we know about, or accept as a working premise) things like other realms and reincarnation and transmigration and all that, but for us these are not 'pie in the sky' promises that mean one should consider this life merely a trial to determine one's ultimate and eternal fate.

We see life, and often, indeed, our course through many lives, as a worthwhile journey of itself, and not one which is well-served by hoping that scorning this life and following certain dogma, especially at the expense of others, will earn us some undefined eternal reward in the next.

"Have you tried to believe in Jesus Christ, the giver of life? Try Jesus and I’m sure you will like the heavenly life after death."

Many among us have. I gave it a shot long ago. (and in other lifetimes, I did) I don't *disbelieve* in your Jesus, I think he's a good guy, or at least a good character: I just don't believe the universe is how Christians say.

Pagans, especially of Starhawk's stripe and mine, tend to see our experience of the universe as cyclical, on several scales: yearly, through a lifetime, through ages, through universes themselves: not as a linear, with a beginning, life of trial, one-time judgement, and final resolution.

Your Jesus is about death and rebirth, wine and grain, and all that, too, we just don't believe the universe *stopped* with that story he is said to embody. Ever wonder why you celebrate those holidays *yearly?* Why not on a digital scale, or once every five years or every month?

Cause the myth (this is not a dirty word to us) of Jesus is connected with the seasons and cycles, too, just as a 're-enactment,' rather than as really celebrating the cycles in our own lives and the worlds.

In that way, we're actually not so different from those who scorn us for being 'tree-hugging dirt worshippers' or whatever. :)

Where it is different is that we believe that life is precious of itself, *however* it came about, ... we don't see the Universe as a wrathful and demanding and sometime abusive father saying, 'I put you in this world and I can take you out,'

..or ourselves as needeing to emulate suffering sacrificial sons and dutiful, virginal vessels of daughters.

We see the world *as* inherently good, and ourselves as people who are not 'fallen,' but *learning.*

Personally, I don't think I even *want* to 'live forever' as the person I am. If you don't have that fear of eternal extinction twanging your survival instincts, you see things a bit differently.

I know of no 'Heaven' I could long abide, at least from my point of view here, while others suffer, and, frankly, I find Augustine's idea that the 'chief delight of those in Heaven is watching the torments of those in Hell...'

Sadistic.

What I believe in is not eternal 'reward,' but ...*regeneration.*

When you touch that, that's the *real* power of the Universe. One may *crave* eternal rest and comfort, but from what I know of the Mother, a little dab'll do ya.

We live in much the same universe as the Buddhists, in terms of consciousness, but not in terms of escaping a world of pain...

This is Dance, this is life... there are other places, but if you look around lately, even in these times, we live in a world of wonders, and if my soul has a problem lately, it's being in too much of a 'hurry' to get back, to not want to miss a blessed thing.

If your Jesus 'freed you from death,' ...don't be enslaved to death and things you're supposed to do in order to receive reward.

*Be* free. Be... Good.

You can go ahead and *be* Christian, ...the worst that will happen to you is you hurt yourself or someone else or waste a bunch of time.

You guys mostly hurt others when you fear so much for yourselves that you think you can make up for it by coercing others.

Frankly, you guys are *fixated* on death cause someone taught you to be inordinately-afraid of it. Every time an injustice is done in the name of your Gods you bring up 'Death' as though by comparison that makes injustice vindicated.

It doesn't.

But don't be afraid. Certainly not for us.

If you read what we say, you'll see we have our own stories and beliefs and hopes and dreams, and even afterlives.

Many of us see the Summerlands, or the Tir, or Inis Affalon, Elysium, or what have you, not as 'eternal reward' but as a place of regeneration and, the soul's version of contemplation. Part of the cycle of life, not an escape from it.

Christians love to come try and make people want their Heaven, but can never describe one. Sometimes they say 'It's the presence of God.'

Most Pagans believe there is *no place that is not* 'The presence of 'God.''

We don't believe the world is fallen and needs to appease an angry God.

We have many conceptions of what may or may not happen to one after one dies... About the only common denominator there is it'll be *honest.*

You Christians teach each other that we believe in nothing and that it's ultimately right to try and coerce us through money and politics into obeying your tabooes, accepting third-class status in society, invisibility save for mockery, etc.

If you can hear this... Don't worry about 'winning souls.' Let's ...do good. Compassion is not 'atonement for sins' or a 'means to an end' ...it is just *good to do.*

Cause we believe in reincarnation and transmigration and all, to many of us any given person (or other creature) might be a soul in need or a God in disguise.

We don't share the theological fear of death that you seem to think everyone must know.

But we're your neighbors.

Listen, hear, say, 'Hey, let's go do this thing,' or go in peace. OK?

“. . .documented evidence of the reality of Near Death Experiences”

Yet nothing in that ‘evidence’ indicates that a soul or spirit exists outside a living brain. In fact that which you call a soul or spirit may indeed be nothing more than screwy brain activity. Deprived of oxygen the brain certainly has a tendency to get a bit wacky.. and once recovered the images and thoughts, queer and corrupted as they were during the chemical failure, store themselves in peculiar ways… much like the images on a damaged VHS tape (remember those?) pause over a corrupted part of the tape, sure if you stare at it long enough, you’ll make out some details, but most of the indecipherable stuff is merely your brain trying to apply known templates to scrambled data…. This is not unlike what hard doses of brain-effecting narcotics will do for you.. the NDE can be pretty much chemically duplicated with LSD…

There is no evidence or physical indication that there is a spirit or soul, or energy field AFTER brain death..

‘near death’ can also be defined as ‘not dead’ therefore ‘afterlife’ does not get proven or authenticated until actual death.

Energy does not die… true… it does change, in fact, once released it NEVER regains original form intact.

“but the energy will light up another bulb” Yes, but never the burnt-out one again.

Starhawk,
I am so glad to read your words again~

I was talking to my Hp last night and we were discussing Reincarnation. It got to what is the Spirit...what is it a part of...is the brain involved in spirit?

We decided the brain was involved with spirit. For one example;

There is documented evidence of the reality of Near Death Experiences. They do happen... Those experiences are stored in the brain...the Spirit is not in a box somewhere...it does exist and it is part of the material plane.

Spirit is energy...energy does not die, like a light bulb does not die when the light is flipped off. The light bulb might die when it is worn out...but the energy will light up another bulb. And another...and another.

In my tradition we have Summerland..a place to renew our spirits, to ponder what we need to learn for enlightenment. What is the best way to learn those lessons? Yes, I believe we choose our families...also the Lords of Karma has their hands in it.

If you are a bigot there then is a lesson you need to learn. You may well come back as what you were bigoted against. It's not a punishment, its the laws of return. What you put out returns to you. A simple concept.

I can look back and I can see where I was led to the people in my life. They gave me what I needed to grow as a person. I was taken by the hand and led to these people, and we have enriched each others lives. I was born into a family that fostered in me what I needed to be, to be whom I am.

I can see my path from where I am to where I was, and I know I was born to be who I am, with those I am with. A horrible run on sentence...

Oh and Wicca's ideas of reincarnation is not like that of the Hindu or Buddhists..People are people and animals are animals..it is belittling the animal to think that they are a lower form...they are honored as their own spiritual beings. People have the choice to be good or bad...they have choice, an animal has instict. Animals are true to what they are created to be; a dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, a lion is a lion...a person can be a saint or a killer.

Blessed be..
terra

As A Nichiren Buddhist, Nichiren encourages, "If one is to understand life, one must first understand death."

Both life and death are functions of life itself!

It appears this wiccan author understands the basics of life and death, beyond the usual Christian approach of Heaven or Hell as the final resting place, versus heavan and hell as life conditions we experience daily.

All I would add is this life and it's circumstances surrounding it were determined by past causes or karma from previous lives; manifest in this lfe; we created ourselves. No more Why me!

I would encourage everyone to explore what does life and death mean to them individually, as the answer may motivate action in one direction or another.

Patrick

Dear Pagans,

Why trouble with life if we do not know the origin of life? Who has been creating life has always been capable of preserving us (you and me) in the life after death. What is the joy of life if we do not have hope in the life after death?

Have you tried to believe in Jesus Christ, the giver of life? Try Jesus and I’m sure you will like the heavenly life after death.

Wayne:
That post was inspiring.. the "swords beaten to megaton bombs" Was so good and yet,so familiar that I looked it up in case people wanted to read the whole thing as the original author intended.
Let me know if I sourced your entire copy and paste effort correctly.....

"The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam Harris"

Dear Pagans,

Why trouble with life if we do not know the origin of life? Who has been creating life has always been capable of preserving us (you and me) in the life after death. What is the joy of life if we do not have hope in the life after death?

Have you tried to believe in Jesus Christ, the giver of life? Try Jesus and I’m sure you will like the heavenly life after death.

Gaby-

I still have my fingers crossed that I'll get to come back as a housecat!

Merry Meet, All!

Although I can appreciate Pagan belief about rebirth, I am not so sure I want to be born again. I am so sick of disaster, famine, war, murder, disease and suffering, etc.

Humans have the capabiity to be a wonderful species, unfortunately we don't use our gift of love and understanding as a society.

I know I sound like an idealistic dreamer, but I would so much prefer to live in a state of peace. If I already must come back, I think I'd prefer to be a rock.

Namaste!

Merry Meet, all. Jihadist, good to see you again.

Priver-

Yes I saw the reports of the "angel of death" cat, and had to call my sister in NY. You see, she had a cat named "Schnapps" that was a "nurse" kitty. She was a rather stand-offish lady, unless you were sick. The she would come and lay down beside you, and stay with you til you were well. She knew before you did if you were getting sick, and she wasn't wrong once.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are forms of socially sanctioned lunacy, their fundamental tenets and rituals irrational, archaic and more importantly when it comes to matters of humanity’s long-term survival, mutually incompatible. There are names for people who have beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common, we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad,’ ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional.’ ‘’ To cite but one example: ‘’Jesus Christ—who, as it turns out, was born of a virgin, cheated death and rose bodily into the heavens—can now be eaten in the form of a cracker. A few Latin words spoken over your favorite Burgundy, and you can drink his blood as well. Is there any doubt that a lone subscriber to these beliefs would be considered mad?’’ The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.’’

Criticizing a person’s faith is currently taboo in every corner of our culture. On this subject, liberals and conservatives have reached a rare consensus: religious beliefs are simply beyond the scope of rational discourse. Criticizing a person’s ideas about God and the afterlife is thought to be impolitic in a way that criticizing his ideas about physics or history is not.’’

A zippered-lip policy would be fine, a pleasant display of the neighborly tolerance that we consider part of an advanced democracy, if not for the mortal perils inherent in strong religious faith. The terrorists who flew jet planes into the World Trade Center believed in the holiness of their cause. The Christian apocalypticists who are willing to risk a nuclear conflagration in the Middle East for the sake of expediting the second coming of Christ believe in the holiness of their cause. Such fundamentalists are not misinterpreting their religious texts or ideals. They are not defaming or distorting their faith. To the contrary, they are taking their religion seriously, attending to the holy texts on which their faith is built. Unhappily for international community, the Good Books that undergird the world’s major religions are extraordinary anthologies of violence and vengeance, celestial decrees that infidels must die.

In the 21st century when swords have been beaten into megaton bombs, the persistence of ancient, blood-washed theisms that emphasize their singular righteousness and their superiority over competing faiths poses a genuine threat to the future of humanity, if not the biosphere: ‘’We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom, or in the literal truth of the book of Revelation,’’ he writes, ‘’because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.’’

I have a particular ire for religious moderates, those who ‘’have taken the apparent high road of pluralism, asserting the equal validity of all faiths’’ and who ‘’imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others.’’ Religious moderates are the ones who thwart all efforts to criticize religious literalism. By preaching tolerance, they become intolerant of any rational discussion of religion and ‘’betray faith and reason equally.’’

The human need for a mystical dimension to life like mysticism and other forms of knowledge, can be approached rationally and explored with the tools of modern neuroscience, without recourse to superstition and credulity.

At this time Islam is the reigning threat to humankind. Much like a gruesome, Inquisition-style Christianity of the 13th century only leads us to believe not all cultures are at the same stage of moral development,’’ I couldn’t help but think of Ann Coulter’s morally developed suggestion that we invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders and convert their citizens to Christianity.

I will say this of Faith: it has been the foundation of every religion, every cult, every sect, every religious terrorist organization that desired to gain advocates whose will greatly exceeded their intelligence. When a religion asks that its followers believe all that it declares, and to do so without evidence, it speaks volumes of the intent and meaning of that religion. These churches, temples and mosques, they will keep their followers in the shadows of millennium past. Evolution is still howled as the great enemy of faith. It simply has the greatest following of scientists and evidence. It's not scientifically that any religion has ever tried to debunk Evolution. They brought forth no evidence. They claimed no new discoveries. Their only tactic was to point to tattered and very old scriptues -- to flip through the pages, and read the rancid words, almost as if they were pure gold. Faith does not require investigation, or evidence, or demonstration, or observation, or logical deductions. It simply requires that a person believe, in spite of what evidence may say: it requires that a person blindfolds themselves when demonstration is shown, to use earplugs when anyone speaks of logic, and to turn away at every reason for them to believe what Faith tells them is wrong. Those cults and sects which have utilized violence for the realization of their apocalyptic future -- they required nothing but the willpower and a great deal of Faith.

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Madam Starhawk

Merry meet and welcome back.

Thank you for this essay that clarifies for me on life, after-life and rebirth as per pagan beliefs. Admittedly, I had confused it with the reincarnation and rebirth as held in Buddhism and Hinduism prior to reading your essay.

Thank you again.

Peace be with you.

J

As for the kitty-comforter of the dying, well, sometimes they won't admit it, but they're our friends, and sometimes I think they're just less confused about some things than we often are, with our elaborate cognition. :)

I suppose that one thing about my own rationalism is that I had to accept, when it came to being a believer, that if I was totally wrong about such concerns as life-after-death, that believing in religious ideas would have to make a 'good' life, now, even if it were totally not what things look like after one's dead.

I tend to see a given life's brain, body, and personality as the *interface* of soul and this world, not the soul itself. So many of the things we think are *us* and naturally want to preserve may be fleeting, but something comes back, like a tree may drop a seed and be reborn of the same spirit in a different shape.

It's very possible that the near-death-experience that people report when flatlining, is in fact a physiological response to the process... if so, it's a natural part of the process... Some see the 'white light' and presume upon recovery that this means a specific dogma is true and the only truth in specific form.

Having been through it and helped out some dying folks, I'd simply observe that my own forms of belief seem to work just fine, too... and to say that what may happen in the brain when we die isn't part of life, and further means it's not 'real' is to deny both our mortality *and* our 'immortality.'

What I say about it is that it can be both validating and surprising. Maybe it was the joy of new experiences, remembering I'm *not* the bundle of pain that my body had become by then, that drew me back.

Maybe that's part of life, too. Wonderful and impermanent as it is.

I think it may be a lazy habit of mind to place too much priority on knowing things in advance. I say while we're being humans, that we are the kind of creatures that *want* to know, but not really those who *need* to know. All else aside, we are explorers, and we need our horizons.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a trip to the Isle of Apples. I understand their health care is excellent. :)

Hi, all, and BB. I took a break.

"Like you, since I was a child I believed "“everyone knows when you die you come back as another person.”" I wonder if other Pagans have had the same belief since childhood."

I've mentioned it before, but, yeah. In my case, it was pretty darn obvious, both that at least I had come back, and that there were other places.

Personally, I think Western religion's utter failure to even be able to deal with this reality proved traumatic for all concerned, but it was always a fact of life. It's pretty clear in my own experience I knew and could do some things at a young age that were, unnerving to the adults around, to say the least, but it didn't mean I had a mature brain to put the memories and implications in context.

I tend to treat it as a specific kind of religious belief that people *don't* come back, one that proves noxious to a lot of how people interact.

Things 'spiritual' I classed as 'Stuff that they'll say you're crazy or possessed for,' and 'Religion' I classed as 'Irrational beliefs.'

We mostly hear about reincarnation in terms of grandiosity and maybe wish-fulfillment, which is maybe sometimes a result of some folks *needing* that to really accept that their present life, which they're taught is the be-all-and-end-all, is a chapter in a book, a link in a chain, etc, etc.

I notice that as Pagans we don't fuss so much about 'life after death' or in fact make of death such a huge terror that not-personally-breeding becomes too scary a prospect for anyone to countenance.

Makes life a bit easier on that count. Ever notice that the ghosts and ancestor-spirits that Christians keep experiencing just don't actually fit in the theological dualism that they base so many of their edicts upon?

Merry meet all! It's good to see a question where Starhawk is able to get back here. Other voices are needed these days, especially in a forum like this.

I've considered three possibilities.

I believe I have a soul. That little something extra that makes me who I am. Therefore-

If the energies that make up my soul rejoin that of the Earth after I'm gone, I'm ok with that.

If whatever powers that may be decide that I've got more work to do and would be coming back in this or some other form, I'm ok with that. I'm having a blast in this life, why would I expect the next one to be worse?

If it all just stopped after this? That's ok too.
I'm having too much fun as it is right now.

Wiccan: Have you heard about the cat who lives in a hospice home who only snuggles with dying patients right at the end? They had a really interesting story about it not that long ago. If live animals can sense when death is around, why not people?

I don't know if those types of phenomena are some sort of psychological call for help when the brain knows the body's shutting down or not- but if such things help those pass over or give peace to those who will be affected by such a loss, it can't be as bad a thing as some make it out to be.

Blessed be!

Even as a little Baptist girl, I wondered why, if people could come back from the dead at the Rapture, couldn't they come back before then? It's a wonder I wasn't burned for heresy with some of the questions I asked.

I've never seen or spoken to the dead, but I was very close to my maternal grandparents. My grandmother taught me to cook, and to see it as a creative outlet, not a chore. The woman could serve you a cardboard casserole and have you begging for seconds. I sometimes smell her perfume when I'm performing the culinary experiments my family fondly refer to as "dinner."
My grandfather was a carpenter,and always smelled like sawdust, even after a bath. When I'm upset or uber-stressed, I sometimes smell sawdust, even if there's no freshly cut wood anywhere near me, and my mind and heart begin to calm.
Does anyone else aroound me smell these scents when I do? No. Does it matter if they don't? No.

Merry Meet, Starhawk!

Like you, since I was a child I believed "“everyone knows when you die you come back as another person.”" I wonder if other Pagans have had the same belief since childhood.

I posted this on the readers response page but got no answers. Maybe I'll have better luck here.

In the weeks before my brother-in-law died, he saw and spoke to "people" that my sister and I could not see or hear. When I told a co-worker about this, she said her mother-in-law did the same thing before she died. The hospice workers at her mother-in-law's hospice said that they see this happening frequently. So I ask you, has anyone else had similar experiences? Do you believe other souls come to help us make the transition from this world to the next?