Forgiveness and Learning

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Miriam - request permission to use your forum to attempt contact spouse, please?

*********************
LILITH COLSKEN-ZERNA
Twiddling my thumbs and going stir-crazy. (Escort duty.)
Would really appreciate a familiar face.
I'm sorry for avoiding contact earlier. You know the score.
Again, my apologies. Can you forgive me? I really need your help.
facebook - see me? If you want to talk, get in touch. (Asap, please.)
Otherwise - I would like to say... erm, how to summarize? Grateful for the precious moments,
remorse and sorrow for all the arguments, and I wish you every happiness in the future.
Loving you was a bonus... Best wishes. Blessed Be'. Sam xxx
"Take a dream and fly away. - Decline and Fall."

********************

My deepest, heartfelt thanks, Starhawk.
BB

There are a lot of insightful people on this forum. Eloquent too. My heart goes out to Victoria - I wish her peace and happiness.

Reading this article was very useful. We talk of forgiveness and learning to forgive, and thats a virtue, for sure, it helps get on in life, leaving unwanted negativity or garbage behind. However through this article, we take responsbibility of learning...forgiving ourselves, moving on after a hurt caused or a mistake made is great, but even greater is to make that shift in 'our pattern of behaviour' as you have written so well. Thanks a lot,
Renu

hi connie- maybe the universe is trying to force you to deal with the issue of forgiveness on a deeper and more personal level-

whereas before possibly you did it automatically to seek approval from the god- you didnt give yourself the opportunity to explore giving yourself approval.

how can you be wrong for what you feel?
but as a wiccan you should try to tune into your intuitive feelings- and if they are indicating some feeling of regret or even what some would call guilt, theres a reason for it.

you cannot ignore your feelings, and even if someone else tells you that you are not wrong for your feelings- you know yourself-

if theres a disharmony in your soul that is occurring- there is a reason.

you must have found somethng valid or beautiful in the message of Jesus(ata) before-

just because you are no longer a 'christian' doesnt mean the message was bad- the message of forgiveness is undeniably congruent with wiccan philosophy-

but now you are making it YOUR decision to forgive or not- not something outside of yourself-

and thats beautiful-
now you have an opportunity to really exaimine your motives for forgiveness- before- you didnt have to think about it - it was a given- but maybe it led to situations where you were weakened or taken advantage of- and it didnt help you to grow and learn-

the opportunity will roll back around again- the universe will provide ytou a new learning experience-

recognize the signs you can react consciously aware- and watch what happens-
does the universe reward your effort at thinking hard, trying to discern your own heart?

there are 2 opposite extremes to go to-
one is a religious command that you MUST forigve-
alot of pressure there-
so you do it, but dont feel it maybe sometimes.

the other is to say that there is no value to guilt- and dont be guilty just do as you will-

there is nothing in the universe that is without educational value to us-

guilt is your inner conscience demanding attention-
its not a contol code by religion to keep you in line- it has a purpose- and so pay attention to ALL your feelings- not just the ones that make you feel better-

there can never be anything wrong about investigating deeply your own consciousness-

if your intuition tells you that you can follow a higher path- (and forgiveness in the right heart-state is that) then maybe you can forgive as much as youre comfortable with (and it doesnt have to be public at all)

and find your own balance where your hear tells you you've forgiven enough- when you feel the harmony in your soul-

none of this means that you are bad, or wrong in any way if you do not feel inclined to forgive.
maybe it is not deserved, or you felt victimized or angry and you have a right to your own sense of justice-

i feel if anything is forced upon one (like you MUST forgive everyone always)
it is an unrealistic pressure to put on people-

the universe accepts you exactly as you are-
you are made of the same materials as the stars and planets of the cosmos, and the rocks and dust in the air- you belong here and your journey is as righteous and good as any of your fellow travelers in this world-

the universe isnt waiting for you to be perfect to embrace you, you are already worthy, already embraced- worthy of an incarnation in this world and a go at lifes lessons-

im not a wiccan connie, but i hope my words are received in the spirit of sincere earnestness that they are given-

peace

Pagan Place, My friend,

I have told you what the truth and reconciliation was about according to Bishop Desmond Tutu. As a primate of the Anglican Communion he is my Bishop and I make an effort to listen to him. The truth and reconciliation committee was about real sins, and real forgiveness.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

Ever since I left Christianity and turned to Wiccan Paganism the subject of forgiveness is one that I haven't really gikven much thought. To me it was always a Christianized thing that had to be done to receive forgiveness from their "god". Its something that I stuggle with because of some of the recent experiences I've been through where in the past I would have forgiven, but now I'm finding it harder as these situations tend to keep repeating themselves so I end up asking myself why, what's the use? Am I completely wrong to fee that way? I hope not.

since you offered alot of unsolicited (and way off base) 'advice' i'll offer some in return

personally- i am intolerant of intolerance-

even pagans can be guilty of it sometimes
we all are-

you have alot of unresolved issues towards monotheists-

to requote you-
hey, hang out with a kind montheist once.

you might be surprised

my own feelings of safetly and validation are soemthing within me, not something to be gotten from my 'strong man'.

i guess you could say im an apostate from the indoctination of radical feminism, and have found my own balanced and middle way.

and who is anyone to decide what's right for me?

wow did you completely misunderstand paganplace- have some suspicion for the good in people-

paganplace -you seem to be unamware that I am v-

are you sure you dont want to revise what you said?

its pretty harsh-

"Take care around seemingly identifying us with some spectre of demonized feminism "

i didnt identify or demonize anyone, i shared with respect, the very act of sharing such a personal story points to the suppostion i had that people here would be gentle and non-judgemental-

"If some 'angry feminists' heard a story anything like 'v's' while it was in progress and saw someone who kept PUTTING IT ON HERSLEF to take on all the badness, herself, I think they could be forgiven for seeing that as a BAD PATTERN. And, hey, hang out with actual angry feminists, (And I think their prevalence and influence is rather overstated,) expect a certain level of... umm... angry feminism."

thats a pretty wild judgement to make with no information- and its incorrect-

1) my grandmother started working in 1917 at 13 years old- she became the executive secretary to the VP of alcoa corp- (one of the leading corporations on the planet at that time) with 500 secretaries working under her.
she did that for 50 years.

are you saying she wasnt liberated? she was liberated decades before the word was used for women!!!!

my mother was the first FEMALE union steward in her entire union-
you want to tell me ive never "hung out" with an "actual feminist"???

and YOU are trying to suggest that i am "revictimized" by forgiving????

give me a break!

and you really REALLY are off base suggesting that my husband should be angry.

i never said angry, i said frustrated.

if youve ever spent any time working with abused and raped women(as i have) you would know that in many cases, it is the reactions of the men which cause a greatdeal if impediment to the healing process of the women-

and you REALLY REALLY (wrongly) leap to the conclusions tat i havent told my husband about the rapes-

it wasnt the rapes i withhold, but the other incidences-

WOW - my husband is not so one-dimensional to have such limied reactions.

you see everythng throuh the perspective of your own views- (which seem greatly influenced by negative experiences with christian religious)

walking in someone elses shoes is the exact point here-
its the defining prerequisite for forgiveness to begin-

now, i dont use caps- i insert alot of parenthetical segues-
i also typically space my sentences 1 or 2 lines, then a space, then another- because aesthetically i think it is easier to read-

also my name starts with v!

i posted it as v because i know people have very tiny attention spans in gnereal- and there are some real islamophobes that actually DO persecute and attack me in real life on these boards continually-
so i didnt want to give them tender ammunition to use against me in some sideways attack in the future if they were floating through here-

i assumed everyone here was intelligent enough to make the obvious connection that I am v- ESPECIALLY because i followed up in my own name.

your judgements are harsh, and just wrong- (as provided by my OWN information on my OWN life)

and the sideways comment about 'strong men'

first and foremost I HAVE TO BE STRONG MYSELF-
soif i choose not to cry on his srong shoulders abou every pain ive ever felt- i can handle it.

ive been mistress of my own soul for a long time now, and i have a handle on it.

i suggest you reread my posts with this new information ...holy cannoli batman!

Well, there is no agenda to exploit you, here, Victoria. Certainly not for pointing out that the demands for 'forgiveness' often *are* in fact used against people who should be being supported, not further degraded by society. Or shamed into silence, for that matter.

We spend some time here explaining our point of view, frankly, as always, having to deal with mischaracterization of what we say. We're certainly not whoever you said was 'telling you to hate'

Take care around seemingly identifying us with some spectre of demonized feminism you may have experienced, ...that sort of thing isn't what anyone's saying... we don't have that binary dualism thing going on this, as so many things.

If some 'angry feminists' heard a story anything like 'v's' while it was in progress and saw someone who kept putting it on herself to take on all the badness, herself, I think they could be forgiven for seeing that as a bad pattern. And, hey, hang out with actual angry feminists, (And I think their prevalence and influence is rather overstated,) expect a certain level of... umm... angry feminism.

No one here is saying 'Forgiveness is bad,' ..only that *demanding* it of people lest they be called 'spiritually inferior' does come about a great deal, ... we can see it here, even, and it's a re-victimization in a lot of ways. When Pagans try to speak on the topic, people who think they 'own' forgiveness (thus, apparently, no one else knows it) tend to try and drown out our ideas on the subject with the very same accusations, you see.

And, really, yes, your man *should* be angry, in general, anyway, and shouldn't need to hear all the details of your personal hurt to be there for you. Many will spar with their imaginations of rapists (often in ways that aren't particularly comforting to listen to,)

...but some don't leap to think of retribution and actually put their attention toward making you *feel safe.* I like *strong* men when I'm with men: ...it's usually the ones who react with angry and frustrated talk of 'I'd rip their guts out,' that are thinking first of a territorial anger that has a way of turning the wrong way, (ie, toward you,) anyway.

But, yes, there's something they can do. There's a difference between being protective and ...angry and possessive. This goes for a societal level, too, where, again, a sin-and-punishment-based society ...doesn't really deal with what's *actually happening* when it comes to the rampant abuse ...and *doesn't know what to do about it...* so out of frustration and a sense of entitlement, a lot of the scorn is reserved for the victims, or other people that can be blamed for a 'sinful world' over which they say there should be more religious-authoritarian control.

That has little to do with 'forgiveness,' which can be a noble and generally helpful thing. We Pagans often speak of not holding attachments or hatred toward those that may have harmed us, which itself is different from absolving people of wrongdoing... For that, often, whatever relationship there is must be healed. That's all I'm saying.

Peace.

terra- thank you

its interesting how polar opposite peoples life experiences can be- the same thing can happen to them, and they come away on different ends of the spectrum.

i wish id have known even one of those victim celebrating/exploiting types-

my problem was angry feminists encouraging me to hate, and belittling my heartfelt forgivneness as weakness-

really angered some people too- (christians)

thats why most of every story has never been told to any-

even my husbad hasnt heard 50% of them 9it would make him feel he had to DO something, and theres nothing he can do- so it would make him frustrated and fuel a belated and pointless anger)

no one told me it was holy to forgive, but a few people sure tried to exploit my pain to further their own agendas-

i can think of no instances where it would be negative to forgive-
i mean real forgiveness, private and heartfelt, not some ulterio motivated showboat thing-

live and learn
peace all

i certainly never really thought of it from paganplaces perspective-

people who want to exploit, will do so.

And maybe if you don't understand that, 'Moderate,' you're just not Irish enough. ;)

And, 'Moderate,' what you say there doesn't even make *sense* to me, at first: let me try and translate, here.

As for the 'Truth and Reconciliation' committee thing, well, quite often people will stand accused of things of which they're actually innocent: I think the TRC thing was much about the same sort of idea as 'no-fault' car insurance. ...when in a place like South Africa, and grudge upon grudge have been piled upon accusation upon accusation, and the *truth* is just *long gone* unless people speak honestly...

Don't try to tell me how hard the world is, though, dude.

That South African thing was really very much about the other solution to the Gordian knot: Let go all those ropes and bury it. :)

It was very self-consciously a quasi-ritual act about *reconciliation* without trying to hash out all the back-and-forth of hundreds of years of a messed-up situation.

As I recall, the whole point of that process was in fact for participating people to tell what they knew, and, whatever they said, be re-inducted into a hopefully-just society. It's quite likely a lot of people in the conflicts just plain had no idea what they were supposed to have done in the first place. This was part of how that thing was supposed to work.

It *wasn't* about sin and judgement, it was about people coming together to bury the hatchet and promise to make it right.

That's a little different from the abstract 'forgiveness' Biblical folks want to mete out or demand as they please. That's about *reconciliation.*

Notice how what we have here is a number of individuals who've been subjected to some bad stuff, trying to work out among ourselves what 'forgiveness' means?

Whatever the value of forgiveness, people will *exploit* what is *taught and expected about it,* just as they do to other good things.

Forgiveness isn't just this abstract kneeling-to-religion-to-feel-better-about-being-hurt thing.

Whatever your tradition says forgiveness is *supposed* to be, it's *not* supposed to be about begging for scraps of abstract validation from those who sanctify and shield the *offenses.*

For starters, real forgiveness is quieter. It's not something that can be demanded or forced or imposed by people demanding victims forgive ....so the usual business can go on.

In fact, what I think was supposed to be a power placed into the average person's *hands,* has too often turned into yet another way for oppressive systems to enforce *dominance.*

You get hurt, you hurt, you need to 'forgive' the abuser while submitting to the system of abuse in order not to be suffering additional pain and ostracism as 'unforgiving' if you refuse to stop saying, 'This is unredressed injustice.'

This is a shame on our society. Gods know how many stories like 'V's I've heard, out there, not to mention my own.

Get hurt, get told it's 'holy to forgive,' do so, get hurt, again and again, and again, while the people *so willing* to try and legislate blanket moralistic judgements about people that aren't hurting anyone, aren't looking to help those hurt and help stop the hurt, but rather turn the very *fact* of one's hurt into claiming some form of spiritual dominance as well as political reasons to further enforce the hurtful dynamics, ...and the thing is, they were taught the same things about sin, forgiveness, and *control* as the perps.

It's in fact all part of the same system.

To wit, people are told, 'It's saintly to forgive, unconditionally cause you can't have justice, never mind *care from the community.* *You* go on trial for how piously you accept the abuse.'

Basically, in some points of view, lots of victims being out there is *good,* to them, cause it makes a more 'wicked' world they can claim they're 'saving' people from.

Real forgiveness happens at odd times, maybe unexpected ones. Quiet ones, in a context of humanity, tribe, family, community. Not flashes of divine grace or supplication.

It's not to be demanded, or for inconvenient victims to be shamed into.

Dear PaganPlace,

On the relationship of forgiveness and sin:

Starhawk said:

"There are great models of forgiveness around us in the world today. I think of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation process as one example."

Do you know what Bishop Tutu said of this when people asked to be forgiven event though they claimed that they had "done no wrong"? If you have done no wrong, then confess no wrong. But if you have done wrong and you do not confess before the commission, you can prosecuted for your crimes. If you want your crimes to be forgiven you must admit to them and maybe even face your victims.

Absolution comes only after recognition of sin, and amendment of ways. At least in the example Starhawk cites.

I understand that your viewpoint is kind in intent, but the world is hard, and earning absolution for terrible sins can be hard too.

Victoria,
I am sorry if I sounded harsh or judgemental toward you, I sincerely did not mean to. It is sometimes hard to make yourself understood in this medium. I do respect your path in all ways.

You have always been respectful and open to us Pagans... we have a different way, but I believe we are all people of good will.

Blessings in all you do,
terra

terra, i pretty much always end my posts with the salutation 'peace'

i wasnt implying you dont have peace-

i was speaking for myself and in general- i dont know your story or have any desire to make a judgement about your own private reaction.

just as ive respected that your own path is personal and your choice, i ask you have the same respect for mine.
thanks everyone for listening

Victoria,

~we have to forgive ourselves first, then our offenders, then the god~

Sorry I missed that...
Why should I forgive the God? He didn't do anything...it was with His and the Lady's aid I am alive to type this. I do not blame the gods...it was a man that did it, not the divine.

terra

Victoria,
I have peace. I do not understand the need to forgive the one that hurt me for me to have peace and not have anger.
I am not angry...and I have done nothing to have to forgive myself for. I was sitting at home minding my own business when he came in...
I guess its a different understanding of what forgivness is or something.

I did not need to absolve him of his wrong doing to get rid of my anger and to find peace. Or to decide that he did not have power over me, so I threw it in the fire. That is what was under my control...

But we see things in a different way...I believe that the Universe will always bring things to balance and I leave Her to manage it.
terra

V,

Hang in there, dear Lady. We love you.

Arminius

thank you all for your most kind and gentle responses of support-

i knew pagans etc... would be receptive because theyve been judged so unfairly and harshly and would respond accordongly
peace all

well terra, we had this discussion before-
i guess a suspension of judgement precludes the freedom to forgive-

but it is a process that is individual to everyone,
forgiveness is basically your ONLY right and empowerment-
we cant force others to be responsible- we can only be responsible for our own actions- no soul bears the burden of another soul.

who else has the right to forgive?

if balance is truly intrinsic and we as humans are really holistically dependent upon one another- the only path to harmony, at some point- will have to be a resolution of wrongs and pains inflicted

we have to forgive ourselves first, then our offenders, then the god

to me any discord or anger creates an imbalance and unharmonious aura
if it emanates from oneself- it must be eradicated there first

people have gotten angrier at my forgiveness (and me) than they ever did over the experience that initiated the forgiveness

my own path in this way has been attacked from every possible angle, and nothing has convinced me yet
but im still listening

i wish you peace

V,

If forgiving is what made things better for you, you did what was right, for you. It is totally impossible for me.

To me the person is responcible for what they do and I am responcible for what effect it has on me.I have to release the hold/ anger/ fear from my being, not let that person have power over me. That is all I can do.

I do not forgive them unless they make some kind of acceptance that they were wrong. To me forgivness is a spiritual thing...if I forgive I do not see you in the wrong again. No...until you accept your consequences for your actions, it is not my right to forgive. That is between you and the gods.

But then that is how I see balance and harmony.

terra

V,

You are a better person than most, and certainly a better one than I am. No way could I have done that.

God bless,

Arminius

V:

You have my admiration - I couldn't do what you've done.

V:

What can be said? Thank you.

Chris

Oh, Mothers, V. *hugs, whoever you are, and no one need know or guess*

There's ...too much of that out there.

I have many first person stories, but I dont want them used against me-

there are some beofre this, but too personal (but forgiven early)

(11)I was beaten repeatedly, tied up, locked in closets, wakenend in the middle of the night to clean floors or some such nonsense- by my stepfather- and got in the way of his fists to protect my mother and brother many many times (my otherwise aquline perfect nose broken twice which ruined a potential modeling career-but thats a blessing-)

( i also ran away to calif at 15 to get rid of him (after the divorce)and didnt come back til my mom got him out- it was the only way she would
he came to our house once to a party weilding a gun, where he was wrestled to the floor-
i was yelled at by a crowd of people to kick him on the ground at least once- i picked him up and gave him his gun, forgave him and he didnt come around much anymore

stranger-hmm- raped held hostage tortured for half a day at gunpoint kknife etc... forgiven
thought i was pregnant- (stress) for 4 months- wanted to keep baby but there wasnt a pregnancy

horrible horrible experiences with the bitter acton agaisnt rape women who made everyhing worse with their prurient hatred and got angry when i said if forgave him (immature idiots)

friend- (came to my house- sat in the car and smoked a joint- had never seen autolocks before, didnt know they existed-) not to mention he cried for 2 ours after and wouldnt let me go- he seemed to want me to understand-raped and given gonhorrhea, afer bad experience with "counselors" didnt go to police (besides, he was a nationally famous 'hero')
developed into pelvic inflammatory disease, had to quit art school, caused infertility
forgiven
also i see him on tv all the time so its not likely to never see his face again
(also he came knocking on my door at 2 am - after-scared my landlady)

forgave my brothers live in lover of 5 years who brought him aids from san fran before he died

forgave my mothers boyfriend who adminsitered an overdose of pwoerful heroin to her that killed her

forgave the police department of long beach for imprisoning me for 2 months (illegally) when a drunk cop shot my friend 5 times in the stomach-
didnt pursue lawsuit blah blah blah

well, there more but im borng myself

one doesnt become a fool when one forgives, but becomes wiser and more discerning- and unquestionably it releases somthing powerful in your ability to love

the more the heart expands, the stronger it becomes

as ive stated elsewhere- forgiveness is a deepl personal and private matter between ones soul and ones soul

and it becomes exponentially easier with practice
peace (besides, im sure you know who i am anyway)

Anyway, Arminius, it's one place where some folks could stand to understand Pagans a lot better... A lot of people kind of get off on condemning us for imagined 'sexual immorality' (we're hardly the first or only minority that's been subjected to this,) ..in fact, some folks feel perfectly-justified making some wild accusations on spurious theological grounds that are really, I think, rooted in the same kind of sexual aggression (notably a desire for control of others) that also comes out in other ways in society.

The reality is, of course, we have our own context for these things... one we, of course, treat entirely in accord with our sense of a deep sacredness about, say, *all acts of love and pleasure.*

It's certainly difficult, in an interfaith context, at least, (and, I detect, in many intrafaith contexts for some) when some people's idea of 'forgiveness' is 'That which everyone should get on their knees and beg for from my God if I don't like them.'

In a context of universal human rights, and a shared humanity, we can talk about these things, but some folks really do seem to have odd ideas about what's even in *need* of the exercise of forgiveness, and what that means.

Umm, we don't think masturbation is a 'sin,' either, mind you, though it's kind of a drag when someone who thinks he's a prospective partner is so busy 'wrestling with temptation' and/or acting all out of control, that you may as well not be there, anyway. :)

I have a general 'no monotheists' rule for that very reason, it just gets weird and icky. Strange masturbation indeed. :)

Paganplace,

Agreed. We must take back sex from those who think it is shameful. Sex - making Love - is the perfect harmony, the ultimate communion, a true celebration of Creation. Anything else is either a strange masturbation, at best, or, at worst, violence in quest of power.

Arminius

I think it's actually a very important things in terms of all this, especially in terms of the sex and abuse that keep coming up, is actually to understand that one of the very most important things about healing ourselves and our world is that it's not, in fact, about drawing more strident ruled and 'moral laws' and more-severe punishments around it, but in fact to take sex itself *back* from those who'll make it a dirty shameful, staining thing in public consciousness and even in enforcement of law.

In knowing it for a sacred and blessed thing, we come to value it the more, ...when people are hurt through 'sexual means,' ...it's not factt it's defined as the same thing as sex that bothers us... it's violence *against* that sacred thing, not *because* of it.

Nothing's better than a patient and trustworthy partner to help one take back her body, and this is something by which a society that condemns these very loving relationships (as if they were 'just as sinful' as very real crimes,) does additional violence to people and fails to care for those hurt.

Not to mention, too often, I find, confusing people on the difference between sexuality and hurting people in the first place.

Terra,

Thanks! Bookmarked, and Starhawk is on the top of the list to visit. I should have had the sense to realise she had a site.

Arminius

Lepi,

Hugs from me, and tears. God bless. You have friends.

Arminius

My pleasure Arminius,

There is so much online about Wicca...some good, some Caca...

I think you can get a bigger understanding through our music, art and poetry as well as reading about our holidays. Go to Starhawk's site. She is my idea of what being Pagan and Witch means.
http://www.starhawk.org/

Then there is Isaac Bonewits-another Pagan voice:

http://www.neopagan.net/

Blessed be..
terra

Terra,

Thanks so much for the links. All are bookmarked for further inquiry. Thank you, dear Lady, and God bless.

Arminius

Henry James,
From your mouth to the ears of Themis.

Watch out for the Swift Boating. I do not trust the American public to rather go with the 30 second ad then use any brain power.

Impeachment is hard when it is both Prez and Vice Prez...get rid of one and the other can get a replacement. I would not put marshal law beyond either of them. Look at Bush's good friend Musharraf ...we are still backing him.

Republicans need to be seen as having the pox.
terra

Terra Gazelle:

I know next to nothing about Paganism and I would be interested in finding out a little more about it (my impression of unicorns is that they're one of the noblest and most beautiful of the mythical animals, which as a devout athiest is about the highest compliment I can pay to a religion).

Lepidopterix:

I'm sorry for the traumatic experience you write about. I didn't mean to imply that there's no substance to experiences like that or that the person didn't mean anything by it. I tried to communicate the idea, which isn't even entirely clear in my mind, that we have power over what the events in our lives mean TO US, and that a state of unforgiveness relates to a certain internal narrative. I know I struggle with narratives such as "this isn't fair", "it shouldn't have happened this way", "how could he do this to me", etc. Those narratives seem to be the things we hold on to. If a transition from unforgiveness to forgiveness is possible, I think it must relate to giving them up. It doesn't mean the pain didn't happen.

Does anyone have a first-person account of finding forgiveness following an acute injustice? (If I missed any such posts above I apologize in advance.)

Joe T

wish i COULD think of a practical way.

as long as bush/cheney are in office, most people in power are too scared of reprisals to do anything meaningful.

maybe starting Jan 20 2009 we'll see some light.

Lepi,

I am sorry that you went through that.
It is terrible when a blessing and a gift is turned into fear and force.

How can that be "forgiven"? To say cohersion and invasion is ok? No. It's not. There are times when we have to be warriors in our daily life. Put the sword where it belongs.

PaganPlace,
I think you are right about,"In fact, I think assault victims so often *remain* troubled by the assaults, long after the priests have done their thing with the attackers, is because it's often *sin-based* people who are unclear on what's really happened."

So many times I have heard those who have been hurt being made to feel that it was only because of how "they" were dressed, or where they were at, or their morals. Like "they" deserved it. So the victim starts seeing themselves as the "bad" ones.

Blame should not go on the head of the already hurt. Should we forgive those who have harmed us and in some strange way accept it was ok? We also should not live with the moment either...we have to take back our own power, this society will not help.

terra

There is of course, btw, post-traumatic stress, Joet. These are part of our instincts as humans, and that, not some 'moral' judgement, is where a lot of the difficulty 'letting go' may lie. These things can become crippling if there are further burdens attached by people who really *amplify the hurt done* by associating it with the sexual-sin-conditioning that says, 'This is your fault and you'll be scorned and punished...' In fact, by heaping further helplessness onto victims, this turns an act of violence into a societal act of stigmatization.

Forgiving or just cutting ties with an attacker can be an act of empowerment, or it can be a society claiming that the harm done, and the victim's hurts, *don't count.*

*hugs to Lepi.*

It's one thing that some of those who wish to assert that we know neither 'morals' nor forgiveness tend to gloss over.... Things like the endemic rape and abuse in our repressed, punishment-oriented society is that some harms are lasting, long after a verdict is reached or a God supposedly makes the perp OK with the world.

It can be like being hurt twice , and ongoingly, when the community is more concerned for the offender's 'sin' than for the victim's hurt or loss. As much as I'm not very big on the litigiousness of our society, there's something to be said for a compensatory system of justice, where offenders are liable to the victim's person, tribe and/or family, with their wealth or their freedom. Now, in practice there have always been built-in inequities to this kind of system, but at least it involves *some* kind of honor, of recognition by the community of the value of the person harmed.

There's something a little sick about some people turning one harm into a bunch more by demanding victims 'forgive' or 'get over' it, when maybe they still don't feel safe.

Not to advocate the practice, as it surely has other, and fairly obvious problems, but one of the appeals of 'street justice' is in fact that it involves rallying around the person harmed, instead of making them prove and defend a case, and it *does* involve a communal reaffirmation the value of the one hurt, a lot more than does the actual retribution, or than does anyone saying, "If you don't forgive this person immediately, through our religion, you're a bad person for having been hurt," ever could.

See what we may mean? Especially when people come at us with ideas that "As Pagans, you neither have any morals' (often the justification for assaults in the first place, in a twisted but all-too-common way, one which in poorer communities can make civil justice seem all the more unlikely) ...nor know forgiveness, so you're inferior at being victims, compared to our saints."

If some of us who have been particularly hurt under these rationales, and have made our own peace with the assaults, remain troubled by the general societal treatment of ourselves, well, forgive us for not buying the 'sin' line.

That just tends to get spun back into the assertions we don't deserve the 'protection' of your religion as it tries to subsume civil justice in the first place. The dehumanization that often means we have to look over our shoulder a lot more than one might expect.

Tends to result in people *comparing* their idea of how their God will judge the queer or Pagan victim with how he'd judge the Christian attacker, for instance.

In fact, I think assault victims so often *remain* troubled by the assaults, long after the priests have done their thing with the attackers, is because it's often *sin-based* people who are unclear on what's really happened.

Lepidopterix: perfectly understandable. but even your involuntary reaction is your own. whether you will be able to overcome it or not is a function of how the mind holds on to images and memories of emotions, and how successful you are at dealing with them. I wish you all the best.

JoeT:
"Of course what happened to you has meaning, but it has it because you are entitled to give it that meaning, not because of some intrinsic permanence to the event as such. If you can't separate the two, you can't accept that the meaning to you is all you have to deal with (by "all" I am not minimizing it) in the sense that it is entirely within your power to control how it affects you and what it means to you. You are only struggling with yourself to forgive, not some external force."

As I;ve said before, I don't wish him any harm, and I sincerely hope that he gets his life together, but at the same time, I never wish to lay eyes in him again, even if he is someday awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know if that qualifies as forgiveness, but it's the best I can manage.
It's not like I dewll on it constantly, but the fact of the matter is that even though it happened almost two decades ago, the first time my husband and I made love (we met almost four years ago), he touched me in in a way that brought on a flashback, and I damn near vomited all over the handsome naked man in my bed. He, of course was confused about my reaction, and I told him why I had responded the way I did. Hell of a thing to have happen your first time with a lover.
So you see, it's not merely that I struggle with myself - I do. I also struggle with the fact that even though he is no longer a physical presence in my life, he still affects the way my body involumtarily responds to certain stimuli.

Henry: I wish I knew the practical way to address the administration's commission of war crimes. we are witnessing the use of the spectre of terrorism, and a dose of racial and religious bigotry, to insulate us from calling it what it is. any ideas?

Joe T

See, Moderate, it may help to touch a bit on the Pagan idea of *karma,* in the first place: our idea of accountability and interpersonal forgiveness is not based on a 'divine judge and lawbook' ...essentially a 'getting caught' model... we see these things as part of an intrinsic and inseparable reality, one based in cause and effect... something like Newtonian laws of motion, where every action has, inherent to itself, an equal and opposite effect on *us.*

Of course even accidents have their effects on us, ...this is a little different from what deliberate or callous harm does but can still has effects of separating us from a sense of being 'right with the world' and the others involved.

We have an accident, we say, 'I'm sorry,' anyway, and forgiveness is supposed to flow from this without even any notion of a 'sin' or 'judge' being involved, ...though sometimes people will immediately leap to being defensive in a legalistic way without even *being* sorry.

Many of the things being done to us as a group, in fact, are justified by people who think that in terms of 'sin,' it's ok to perpetrate said harm because they can say we're doing a greater 'sin' for not obeying them.

We say, 'Hey, you're hurting people,' and they say, 'Yeah, well, you're a bigger 'sinner' and my God says it's accordingly OK to do that to you.'

In fact, by defining everyone as 'sinners' from birth, but giving themselves a special way out, they justify all manner of real harm done to *anyone they like.*

It's much more immediate and interactive for us.

See?

Actually, you kind of demonstrate the point, Moderate:

"Dear PaganPlace,

"Forgiveness is about sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of forgiveness."

We simply don't believe in sin that way, or in fact, process harm done to others through that idea.

"Do you forgive the Cyclone in Bangladesh? Do you forgive an airline pilot because a mechanical failure caused his plane to crash an kill all on board? These cause harm, but it is senseless to apply the concept of forgiveness."

I wouldn't think to apply 'blame' in the first place, under those circumstances.

You bring up the idea of the driver who accidentally killed the child: that's a prime case where forgiveness may be necessary, whereas there is no 'blame' or even 'sin' to be attached. But he blames himself. In reality, we often apologize for accidents, (in fact, that driver *not* showing remorse for being party to the accident would be seen as rather nasty, wouldn't it?) and forgiveness is there a thing that happens between people. No 'sin' involved.

"Call me old fashioned, but in my view, the man that Starhawk hypothesized in the first paragraph who beats his wife sins in so doing. The mother who abuses her children sins in so doing."

And sometimes the idea of 'sin' is used to *justify* such treatment biblically. To say, essentially, 'God told me I could do it.' or that, 'God forgives me for doing it, so I'll do it again, or demand you accept this treatment.'

Often such abuses even have their *roots* in the idea of sin, ...after all, what are they trying to 'beat out of' a child?

Some will say we *don't know forgiveness,* ...really, we just don't abstract and categorize and absolve *blame* and *harm* in the same way Christians do.

The wife-beater isn't to us a 'sinner' cause someone says it's against the wishes of a God, ...he's an abuser because and as long as he abuses.

Arminius,
I have some fravorite writers or teachers that I could recommend...Mike Nichols is one. His site gives alot of info about our holidays and many Pagan views. But he is Celtic... there are hundreds of traditions that make differences between us, but the core is always the same.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7280/

This is a favorite writing of mine. It says so much about who we are.It is on a site that has alot of literature about us and other religions. It's a very good site.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos553.htm

Then there is always:
www.witchvox.com
This site is extentive and there are many hundreds of articles in it, most are individual perceptions and may have 3 days experience. Check out the music and read it all.... the poetry will give you an idea of what we are.
On Faith will not post if there are too many links listed.
terra

Lepidopterix: Chris has a point, but perhaps you are misreading it. Of course what happened to you has meaning, but it has it because you are entitled to give it that meaning, not because of some intrinsic permanence to the event as such. If you can't separate the two, you can't accept that the meaning to you is all you have to deal with (by "all" I am not minimizing it) in the sense that it is entirely within your power to control how it affects you and what it means to you. You are only struggling with yourself to forgive, not some external force.

Laurel: slight quibble to what otherwise is a good point. with the person we know, I don't think we are witholding forgiveness conditioned on remorse. we can still forgive in the first sense you describe. we just don't complete a reconciliation between the forgiver and the offender absent the requisite conduct of the offender. the semantics is messy, because we so often use the word in the sense of actually communicating forgiveness to the offender - "that's OK, I forgive you" to me, that's not forgiveness as such, it's the communication to the offender of the fact that I have already forgiven them. that communication is another subject, reconciliation and relationship repair, that can appropriately be conditioned on lots of things, remorse among them.

From reading this and some of the other threads on this site, it seems to me that the word "forgiveness" includes two different concepts. The main idea is that it means to let go of hate and not hold a grudge on those who have hurt us, possibly to the point of feeling compassion for the perpetrator. The secondary idea has to do with healing the relationship.

If the person who has hurt us is someone with whom we wish to have an ongoing relationship with, I believe it is necessary for the person to have remorse, to make amends, to take steps not to repeat it before being forgiven. Otherwise you're contributing to an ongoing pattern, especially when there's a power disparity between the people involved. Then it becomes co-dependence and not true forgiveness.

For true healing of the relationship and reconciliation I believe the person who has transgressed has to acknowledge the transgression and take real steps to right the wrong.

Chris

thanks for the nice words to me.

i do disagree with you that Paganism is just another superstition like most religions.

the biggest difference is that Paganism is so attentive to, and tied to, the natural rhythms of the world and of ourselves.

go to the Starhawk file here and read 6 of her columns in a row, and you will see a deeply spiritual and most "un-wacky" approach to human experience.

i have literally not read one word from here that i have found to be non-felicitous.

love
henry

Moderate

you accuse the Great Henry James of being "simplistic?" Heavens.

i clearly said that the torturers themselves are bound to feel remorse and suffer dehumanization. and i clearly said that perhaps the greatest "sin" of Bush/Cheney was to force others to do this obscenely dirty work.

Cheney has famously said that waterboarding is a "no-brainer." it is clearly, for him, a "no-heart-er" also.

No remorse hinted at. No "sorry we have to do this but..." Just a No-Brainer.

that is the official American attitude towards practicing torture, which Bush lying-ly denies that we do, when he knows that the world knows that we do.

who is being simplistic here? or blind to war crimes? is that the "moderate position," don't get too upset about violations of the Geneva Conventions for civilized countries?

Chris:
"It is the notion that there is a distinction between what happens and what one makes it mean, and that there is no INTRINSIC meaning to the events in the life. Convoluting the two makes it very difficult to forgive because it requires letting go of something that one takes as a source of meaning, when only the EVENT happened, not the VICTIMIZATION."

So when someone who had previously claimed to care about me held me down and forced himself on me, he didn't mean anything by it? It was "just one of those things" with no more lasting impact on my life than a bad hair day?

Terra (the 'wacky' Witch?),

I for one am interested in learning more about your religion. I do not know any Pagans personally, only on the web. I have explored a few web sites, not in depth, but found them interesting. Do you have any recommendations?

Arminius

i know absolute forgiveness is where you have to end up eventually, spiritually.

it may take years of effort
it is something you do quietly, and it has to be unconditional

and it doesnt require any remorse from the perpertrator, or even contact

i have forgiven my torturers, and forgotten the harm and the torturers of those ive loved (this, did involve personal confrontation)
it doesnt mean i develop a foolish anemia and lose wisdom

its also shallow and pointless to forgive people you dont know personally for things that you didnt experience

you can refrain from judging them-

its not qualified and conditional

no person has the ability to convince me of any neccesity of vengeance
its been tried and it is not what find in my deepest heart

and eventually- for it to be forgotten truly-
you have to wish for your torturer to find some light- to find your way through the initial impulses to hurt back-

i dont wish their karma to punish them, i dont wish the god to punish them

they have already punished themselves enough

i have encountered incredible opposition to this
practice- it is very strange -

thats my perspective and life-

it is my strength and no attack will affect it

even our very thoughts have some small will to manifest into physical reality
peace

Chris,
Just what do you know about any of the Pagan religions? Some times we think we know something, because we have been told by others. Make sure that you know what is the truth and not just something you thought you knew.

Calling us wacky...we might be, but what do you think makes us wacky?

terra the wacky Witch...

Dear Henry James,

"It is pretty clear that the Bush/Cheney torturers don't feel remorse, and are not inclined to repentance. I think they worship a different Jesus than you do."

You do yourself no credit with simplistic statements. Torture is damaging to everyone involved. The tortured are traumatized, and the torturers loose at least part of their souls. As to Jesus Christ, he accepted most brutal torture to teach mankind to repent of it. Too bad we have failed, yet again, to see that most central meaning in his passion.

A while ago there was a moving guest editorial from a man who had conducted what Cheney would call "aggressive interrogation". He suffers recurring nightmares about what he did and knows that he is guilty for following his orders. I would not want my sons to have to bear that kind of guilt from following bad orders. I am sorry that Bush and Cheney have forced fine young Americans to do so.

As to forgiveness for torturers, they must ask their victims for that. None of us on the sidelines can ever really understand.

As usual, JOET and HENRY JAMES are eloquent and to the point. I would like to add:

I think the Buddhist concept of equanimity is relevant here. It is the notion that there is a distinction between what happens and what one makes it mean, and that there is no INTRINSIC meaning to the events in the life. Convoluting the two makes it very difficult to forgive because it requires letting go of something that one takes as a source of meaning, when only the EVENT happened, not the VICTIMIZATION. I find equanimity to be very useful when I find myself in what might otherwise be a victim situation. I think that at the core is the fact that it is a privilege simply to be alive, and the events that occur within the life ultimately can’t compete with the good fortune of finding oneself to be, in fact, alive, regardless of circumstances. (I must equivocate: my life has not included extreme hardship… yet). On a lighter note, one strategy I sometimes employ when dealing with people and their behavior (read: family) is the “day at the zoo” model. When visiting the zoo, I expect to see the lions acting like lions, the zebras acting like zebras, and the snakes acting like snakes. I do not judge them for acting this way – it’s their nature and it’s my job to learn how to interact with creatures having that nature. (In truth, I can’t stomach the zoo anymore – talk about political prisoners!!!) Anyway, look at it this way, which is admittedly idealized, and forgiveness is no more an issue with human behavior as it is for bad weather. As Starhawk indicates (from the other direction), the imperative is to learn, not to judge, and the learning is twofold – learn to let go of conditioned assignment of meaning (i.e. projection) and be free to CHOOSE what you make the event mean. And learn to tell the lions from the snakes and act accordingly.

As for the situation where one needs forgiveness oneself, the Desmond Tutu model is a good backup plan, but the reconciliation process should really be initiated by the wrongdoer (“amends”, in the 12 step process, although I’m not an admitted alcoholic – not that there’s anything wrong with it!). I see this as making an effort to let the offended party let go of identifying themselves as a victim, if need be. The desired attitude as far as I can tell is one of humility and humor at how selfish, myopic, dumb and idiotic we all can be, and a sense of joy at freely acknowledging it and doing something about it. As Socrates said (according to Plato anyway), I’m delighted at being proven wrong because it removes an ignorance from my mind. An ideal of perfection is one thing to keep in mind, but a realization that we’re all just a big bunch of naked apes helps too.

P.S. I can’t help but remark that the presence of Paganism on this site is Wacky! But I like it, despite my atheistic need to point out that it’s just another form of silly organized superstition. However, in the menagerie of superstitions, paganism feels like a unicorn whereas judeo-christian-islamity feels like more of a golem to me.

Viejita

You are a fellow human whom i would trust with my life. you and arminius are of the same religion: re- ligiouso.

It is a much greater "sin" to force others to do your dirty work than to do it oneself.

And i am sure most of the torturers feel remorse. it is a profoundly dehumanizing act to torture another. as is killing (and raping and pillaging) in war.

humans have long said "we have to do it, cuz THEY do it". we need to stop that cycle.

and the Governement of the United States of America has taken two Giant Steps in perpetuating the cycle by
1. going to war in Iraz
2. sanctioning and practicing their various tortures.

This may be way off the subject, but the reason Bush and Cheney don't feel remorse for torture is partly because they've delegated the actual practice to others. Just as they delegated the rationalization to others like John Woo and David Addington, they authorize torture rather coldly and abstractly and leave the physical torment to ordinary CIA and military operatives who really don't have the authority to say "no."
I'm not at all certain that these operatives don't feel remorse.
We are increasingly a culture who allows others to do our dirty work, whether it is extraordinary rendition, chain of command, or even sending our dinners to factory slaughterhouses to come out neatly packaged. Bush purports to be proud of Texas's record on capitol punishment but I wonder how many of the condemned he was ever willing to look in the eye.

Henry James,

Seems we are pilgrims on a similar path, if not the same path. This is reassuring to me. To find a kindred spirit is always a great thing.

The Shrub, Cheney, and the assorted clueless, knuckle-dragging numbnuts in the administration are NOT religious. They use religion as a weapon.

True religions, as well as non-religious moral inquiries, are doorways into a better life. They are NOT weapons of power. No way.

Arminius

Arminius

It is pretty clear that the Bush/Cheney torturers don't feel remorse, and are not inclined to repentance. I think they worship a different Jesus than you do.

For me personally, "forgiveness" is almost a non-issue.

If someone does something bad to me, I try to avoid gettting into a situation where they can do it again (fool me once...)
and I will be wary of them in the future,
but I am cursed with a tendency to try to understand why they did it, and in any case I am in no position to make any ultimate judgment on them.

If they tell me they are sorry and make amends, I will probably be less wary of them in the future.

But even if they don't, I can't think of anyone I hate or haven't forgiven for anything they have done to me.

I have a conviction that it hurts me more than it hurts them if I hold a grudge or hate them. And my conviction seems more pragmatic than moral to me.

I agree with your description of "remorse is not enough..." etc. Absolutely. One of the few moral absolutes i can think of quickly

love
HJ

(and so, explicitly, yes, I agree with you that "forgiveness has nothing to do with any remorse shown by whoever committed the wrong.")
that is why I admire you, cuz you almost always agree with me (not that you do so in ORDER to agree with me).

HJ:

I would offer that forgiveness has nothing to do with any remorse shown by whoever committed the wrong.

Also - remorse by the doers of wrong is not enough. It must be accompanied by repentance. I mean here, by 'repentance', not a religious dictate, but a moral one: to turn away from one's past actions, and resolve forever never to commit such acts again. And to make restitution to the victims.

Respectfully,

Arminius

Can We Forgive our Torturers?

combining the last two posts.

If our torturers show remorse, many would say we have to.

What do you wise people think?

Henry James,
Thanks, that compliment is heartfelt.

Moderate,
St Francis prayer is indeed beautiful, and maybe, just maybe, suitable for many of us. Not just Christians.

All:
Here is one possible definition of sin, perhaps acceptable by most: Sin is hurting another living being needlessly.

With respect,

Arminius

Dear Joet,

The prayer of St. Francis has much wisdom on the role of forgiveness. The references to "Lord" and "Divine Master" can be changed at will to Goddess and Divine Mistress, or to one's belief in a humane world. It is profoundly about the human condition and how to live well.

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

--- St. Francis of Assisi

Anon was me that time. Sorry I forgot to put my handle on it. ;-)

Anonymous: I was responding to several posts at once (being lazy and all) so most of those remarks weren't directed at you (sorry). I agree with your last post entirely.

Dear Joet,

"we should stop arguing that you can't have a decent point of view because you are blinded by faith, or because you lack it."

Personally, I wasn't doing that. Nor do I suppose that the existence of God in necessary for there to be sin. We can sin against one another without involving God. Certain degrees of mistreatment become sins against each other or against life itself. This follows easily from a premise that life is sacred.

Also, the rightness of my friend's brother is not at issue. That he could not forgive himself was. Sometimes it just is not about errors, but about the human experience.

Just to get technical, there is no need to bring a sin doctrine into the picture. forgiveness does not require a god premise. forgiveness is about letting go of hate or judgment directed at someone whose actions could give rise to same in the would be forgiver. no need to call that sin. the blameless person who killed the child was judging himself, erroneously, but nonetheless. the blameless seldom provoke hate, so nothing to let go of. the whole analysis does not require any discussion of faith. the point of many of my postings is just that, you can discuss almost any subject in extraordinary depth without resolving the existence of any god or mystical quality of the universe. we should stop arguing that you can't have a decent point of view because you are blinded by faith, or because you lack it. if both sides of the faith divide would grant the other that much, and stop attempting to prove the other a fool, we would all be better off. the great theologians and philosophers stopped trying to prove god exists or doesn't a century or so ago. we mere peons need to catch up.

Lepi and Arminius have (Re)Solved It

"It" being the subject here, "On Faith."

Have Faith that
1. there is something bigger than you, and immensely more powerful.
2. be good to each other.

after this, whether you believe that there are 3 levels of heaven or that god has green eyes or that 37 angels can dance on the head of a pin is irrelevent (if maybe a little wacky).

Arminius, once more, you are my kind of Christian.

peace and love
Henry the Hippie

Dear PaganPlace,

I guess I can think of an example of forgiveness needed without sin.

When I was a boy, one of my friend's older brother killed a toddler. The baby boy darted out from between two parked cars and my friend's brother was unable to stop his car and struck and killed him. The police found him to be without fault. In this case, there was no sin, but my friend's brother held himself to be guilty and was unable to forgive himself. I hope over the decades since, that he has found a way.

Dear PaganPlace,

Forgiveness is about sin. If there is no sin, then there is no need of forgiveness. Do you forgive the Cyclone in Bangladesh? Do you forgive an airline pilot because a mechanical failure caused his plane to crash an kill all on board? These cause harm, but it is senseless to apply the concept of forgiveness.

Call me old fashioned, but in my view, the man that Starhawk hypothesized in the first paragraph who beats his wife sins in so doing. The mother who abuses her children sins in so doing.

Forgiveness may offer freedom for the victims of sin to live full lives rather than being dominated by their abusers. It can also encourage repentance and amendment of ways for the sinner so that he can accept his sin and return to a full life. He must also repair what he can of the damage he has wrought. So to me, forgiveness is about healing and wholeness. What are your thoughts about it?

If you somehow didn't get it after all that, 'the moderate,' sometimes it was never about 'sin' in the first place.

What are you saying?

Dear Starhawk,

Your essay is thoughtful and filled with the Spirit. Forgiveness has many dimensions and ways.

We could say that we should only forgive when our abusers have seen that they are sinners, amended their ways, and understand that they need forgiveness, and be right sometimes.

But Jesus Christ while on the cross said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." This made him free of sins of his tormentors.

In other cases forgiveness heals the victim even if the sinner never even knows it. There was a woman that survived the Nazi atrocities who lived in Indiana after the war. She forgave the SS men because it was in forgiving them that she broke their power in her life and so became truly free.

Sometimes forgiveness leads to reconciliation. Sometimes it simply to freedom. Sometimes it allows a saint to be whole in spirit even as the body is broken.

Still, you are right that forgiveness should ever be used to manipulate victims to keep them in bondage to their abusers. Some times it is best to forgive from a safe distance and later.

Peace.

Hi, Lep!

You quoted:
"The more I study different religions, the more I see that when you strip away all the theological details and denominational bs, the more you see that they all boil down to two essential ideas. One - you are a part of something bigger than yourself, regardless of what you choose to call that something. Two - be good to each other. If we would all keep those two ideas in mind with ewverything we do, the rest would take care of itself."

I say, YES! And, on thinking about it, I realised that it was a different wording of Christianity's Two Great Commandments. Not derived from the Gospels, mind you, but parallel with them. Which proves the point - we are alike. This is profound.

Wow!

Arminius

The American Council of Witches'
Principles of Wiccan Belief

1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythum of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon and the seasonal quarters and cross-quarters.
2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with nature, in ecological balance, offering fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept.
3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than is apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary, it is sometimes called 'supernatural', but we seen it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all.
4. We conceive of the creative power in the Universe as manifesting through polarity--as masculine and feminine-- and that this same creative power lives in all people, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and the feminine. We value neither above the other, knowing each to be supportive of the other. We value sexuality as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magical practice and religious worship.
5. We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological worlds--sometimes know as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconscious, the Inner Planes, etc.-- and we see in the interaction of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomena and magical exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.
6. We do not recogize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership.
7. We see religion, magic, and wisdom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it-- a world view and philosophy of life, which we identify as Witchcraft or the Wiccan Way.
8. Calling oneself "Witch" does not make a Witch--but neither does heredity itself, or the collecting of titles, degrees, and initiations. A Witch seeks to control the forces within him/herself that make life possible in order to live wisely and well, without harm to others, and in harmony with nature.
9. We acknowledge that it is the affirmation and fulfillment of life, in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness, that gives meaning to the universe we know, and to our personal role within it.
10. Our only animousity toward Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be 'the one true right and only way' and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practices and belief.
11. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future.
12. We do not accept the concept of 'absolute evil', nor do we worship an entity known as 'Satan' or 'the Devil' as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor do we accept the concept that personal beliefs can only be derived by denial to another.
13. We work within nature for that which is contributory to our health and well-being. We are not bound by traditions from other times and other cultures, and owe no allegiance to any person or power greater than the Divinity manifest through our own being. As American Witches, we welcome and respect all life-affirming teachings and traditions, and seek to learn from all and to share our learning. We do not wish to open ourselves to the destruction of Wicca by those on self-serving power trips, or to philosophies and practices contradictory to these principles. In seeking to exclude those whose ways are contradictory to ours, we do not want to deny participation with us to any who are sincerely interested in our knowledge and beliefs, regardless of race, color, sex, age, national or cultural origins or sexual orientation.

Arminius,

Several years ago, during a seminar on Women's Spirituality, a friend of mine (who happens to be a Unitarian Witch) made the following comment:

"The more I study different religions, the more I see that when you strip away all the theological details and denominational bs, the more you see that they all boil down to two essential ideas. One - you are a part of something bigger than yourself, regardless of what you choose to call that something. Two - be good to each other. If we would all keep those two ideas in mind with ewverything we do, the rest would take care of itself."

Terra,

That was a beautiful description of Paganism that you gave us. Thanks.

It was the beauty of creation, the spiritual experience of it, that drew me back to religion. Christianity, in my case. So where you see magick, I see the hand of God. We look at the same thing, with joy and awe, but have a different interpretation. I absolutely refuse to say that mine is the right one. It fits what I feel and bellieve, so I stand by it. But is yours less relevant? I will NOT judge. Paganism is beautiful - so is Christianity, if you scrape away the dross of centuries and get to the core. God is love, and His creation is beautiful.

With respect,

Arminius

I think that it's a trait of Humans everywhere to feel that they are victims of some "other" group/culture/whatever. I was talking to a co-worker who is ethnically from the Middle East. His take on things is that people in that area of the world (and other places) have very long memories, but they are selective. They remember the wrongs done to them and their tribe or religious group, but they conveniently forget what they did to the others. I understand that completely. I grew up hearing about how various ethnic groups were somewhat inferior to my parents' ones. And this was among various Eastern European ethnic groups.

This victim mentality is rampantly in evidence in the U.S. after 9/11. The whole idea that "they hate us for our freedoms" and "Muslims are evil killers" is thinking with one's lizard brain. Yes, the attacks of 9/11 were horrific, and many people are working to ensure that they don't happen again. But we as a rational society have to look at what led up to it. We have to admit that yes, we did mess in the affairs of the Middle East in order to secure their oil. We poked at the hornet's nest, and then were surprised when we got stung.

Yes Terra

that is the kind of Magick that I believe in.

If god is not the Soul, she is the Soul of the Soul of the World.
(stolen from Giordano Bruno).

HJ
Super-Naturally

To me "supernateral" is Supremely Natural.Not some whoo whooo levitation, changeing eye color, turning So many see magick as turning Newt into a newt, though I would love to... something "supernatural," unreal and flakey. This is something I found online that says what it is:

Magick is finding your connection to the Earth and all that is natural, alive and moving in the universe! It binds all that exists together.

Magick is living in balance with the flow of life, and knowing that you are a vital force within that flow. Magick is everywhere! In the trees, rain, stars, and in the sea. It is the spark that quickens a seed to rise up from the soil.

Magick is laughter, joy, wonder and truth of the world around us!

It is the subtle enchantment that reminds us not to waste a single moment of this gift that we call life! Magick is not greed, or power, or pretense...It is real. It exists. And it works.

Magick is the mystery that lies in the secret soul of the world. It is the essence of creation. What we imagine, we have the power to create!
anon.

Is this super-natural? yes. It is supremely natural...supremely possible for all humanity.
terra

Supernaturalities

I agree with Steve B (as i usu do)
that true pagan practice
has "natural deities"
not
supernatural.
and that is a large part of the power
and truth
of paganism (and buddhism, my other sect).

Jihadist

sorry to "cliche" you.
there are, of course, many kinds of believers
and many kinds of non-believers.

My *opinion* is that the kind of belief that
God will damn you to hell
or reward you with 70 virgins in Paradise
or lives on the Planet Kolob and has a body of flesh and bone (mormons) or
intitiated a Virgin Birth (did He have permission, and if not, was it rape?)
tends to hobble the mind
though some believe in a way
that minimizes the "hobbling".

One *needn't* believe in a Magic God
to love one's neighbor as one loves oneself.

love you.
Henry

...and speaking of semantics: "Supernatural" I don't get...

I just think nature might be a little more 'super' than meets the eye.

;-)

Sometimes some words and concepts get too loaded to remain practical. "forgiveness" falls into that category, perhaps. To accept it can feel like you are taking on all the baggage that the term can come with, and that is perfectly understandable. I agree with the sentiment that forgiveness doesn't mean absolvement from guilt or reconciliation with the offending party. Some see it differently. I think those of us who come down in the oppose camps all agree that it important not to get caught up in a life based on hate. The rest is just semantics.

Interesting that the word "supernatural" comes up so often when people refer to pagan practice.

We don't see that the more magical parts (or often even the deities themselves) are outside of nature at all. That's the point, really.

I would just reiterate that forgiving does not mean allowing the offense to continue. Cooperating with law enforcement to see that an offense is not repeated is a communitarian act, while forgiveness has to be personal.

Hee, Jihadist.

I can hardly be said to have no 'supernatural' beliefs myself, except that I don't believe anything supernatural about my beliefs should take the place of or override rationality.

Pagan belief may or may not involve or depend upon 'supernatural' ideas as some may think of them. 'Super' as in 'above and separate,' ...no, not so much. Some Pagans may well hold beliefs that may be considered 'supernatural,' in the common use of the term, but we have no common beliefs which say these things are 'above' reality, or 'contradictory to and above' reality.

"Clausewitz and Sun Tzu never mentioned rape as an instrument of war though it is perpetrated in all wars thoughout history."

Clausewitz and Sun Tzu also just so happen to be much better resources on winning wars than those who claim rape and terror works for long, or for anything save terrorizing people out of mentioning your strategy sucks.

Though, actually, 'Rape' didn't take on its current meaning till quite recently in history, ...look up 'Rapine' in common military usage as late as the american Civil war...

"In one of my visits to South Africa, I learned that some men with HIV/AIDS raped baby girls because they believe they will be cured of HIV/AIDS. That is unforgivable. Hence - borrowing "Castrate rapists" from American "militant" feminists."

If it's unforgivable, maybe our high and mighty theologians who want to impose their ways on Africa ought to stop treating both HIV, condoms, and non-virginity like 'cooties.'

Just a little 4-1-1 for ya.

"To Jihadist" and Paganplace,

Thank you for your posts.

So, "To Jihadist" saw my swipe directed at men, the gender that most perpetrate rape and pedophilia.

The phrase I used, "Castrate rapists" is borrowed from American "militant" feminists of the sixties/seventies that I read about. Susan Brownmiller's book, "Against Our Will - Men, Women and Rape" is a very consciousness raising book.

Clausewitz and Sun Tzu never mentioned rape as an instrument of war though it is perpetrated in all wars thoughout history.

In one of my visits to South Africa, I learned that some men with HIV/AIDS raped baby girls because they believe they will be cured of HIV/AIDS. That is unforgivable. Hence - borrowing "Castrate rapists" from American "militant" feminists.

--------------------------------------------------

Gaby, JoeT and Henry James

Yes, Madame Starhawk is humane and a humanist.

Being humane is a personal charateristic regardless of religious beliefs or otherwise. Desmond Tutu and Dalai Lama are humane too and humanists.

Of course believers are all judged to be "hobbled" by our beliefs in the supernatural. Where are our mental and physical crutches due to supernatural beliefs? In the "Lost and Found" department of our minds?

Cliche I : Some lost God. Some found God. Some lose faith. Some found faith. Some have beliefs. Some don't have beliefs. Some "got" religion. Some don't get religion.

Cliche II: Have faith, live as well and as best as you can, relish life, do good, be good, and trust God.

So there, more cliches from a believer.:)

Thank you and best regards

"J"

Paganplace,

It's ok. When talk of forgiveness is brought up I think about it too.

At times I wonder, am I right in my attitude or are they? Can I be that hypocrite and mouth one thing while hateing? See I don't hate that man...I don't think much about him, I think of the circumstance and think I was blessed by the gods to be here now. But him? Nope, he is not a part of my life. I think that is what so many can not understand, how we deal. It's ok..it works for us. We do not have to invoke the names of our gods...it just is the way it works.

We are responcible for our actions...we try to live our lives in awareness of reactions. Our laws are based on balance and living in community...when you care about the other person you are less likely to do what harms them.

Seems to me that too many mouth love and forgivness...they are all for personal responcibility unless it steps on their personal behavior or dogmas or tyrannies. They talk good...but when ever it comes to vengence they are right there. I see it as them not trusting their god to make things right.

Maybe its what we think of what is important?

terra

I

Henry James,

Right you are! Starhawk is an inspiration. And I am Christian!

Arminius

Gaby and joey are both right.

Starhawk is so breathtakingly humane and strong because her vision is clear

and not clouded by supernatural crutches or cliched prescriptions for living.

And she is the most lucid and profound and practical voice on this site.

hard to believe that she and Cal thomas are members of the same species. but i love you Cal. Just not sure i forgive you yet.

though i think it is not your fault.

*hugs to Terra*

Sorry to have brought that up again, but I think it's a prime example of how certain ideas go wrong in practice.

Seems, with the repetition, this forum is really trying to address the real meaning of some of these issues.... Some of the premises and absolutes that people are told to take for granted as coming from the very authorities who want us to reduce our secular standards in the name of a particular religion. One that has no track record of helping these problems, even when given free rein... power itself, in fact.

Last time this topic, or a very similar one, came around, we came under attack for having our *own* standards on forviveness and related issues, ...after which detractors went on to demonstrate maybe they aren't necessarily, and certainly not uniquely, as 'forgiving' or just or caring as they are told to think.

I think we Pagans, as Americans, know we can do one better than accusations of 'sin' and 'forgiveness' for same.

We can talk about humanity and justice and a civil society, and it's *not* in conflict with anyone believing what they want to or feel they should, and with someone else believing something different just as much.

This is the promise of America that, whether some Christians want to claim to be the real retroactive originators of it or not.... That we're gonna hold them... and ourselves, to.

And this is not exclusive to us, either.

Just that some people are used to being offered the easy way out of someone telling them what to do, and as long as they accept the idea that unless they believe these authorities, they're 'sinners,' too, then they're terrible people, too, therefore have the right to say, 'You're damnable, just like murderers and pedophiles, ...that being different is a 'capital crime,' thus any 'extreme punishment' we see fit to perpetrate on you for our beliefs, while equating your minority with 'horrible crimes...' Well, that's better than we believe 'God' will give you if you don't accept the abuse and obey, doesn't it?'

The 'extreme' isn't necessarily the 'strongest.'

If people say, 'Without threats of Hell, murderers will murder... Which is why we have to say kids will receive an equal punishment for not being born straight... That'll teach..."

Who?

What does that really teach?

It teaches people, not to do 'good,' but to 'condemn' and 'justify.' The danger of the rod-bound lictor's axe that is literally the symbol of fascism is forgetting that it's not about people bound together to strengthen the axe, but also to prevent that axe from being used without the people's consent... and to do that, all those bound rods must be *free.* Give consent.

What a lot of folks who are Christian authoritarians don't understand is that our secular society isn't there to *oppress* them, but actually to *allow them* to believe what they choose, *without* becoming monsters.

Saying 'We own punishment and forgiveness' is not enough, if not 'supporting the axe' becomes justification to get chopped.

This is the danger we're in, if we venerate the axe and forget what the bundle of sticks was originally supposed to represent.

If you look on an old quarter, you'll see an eagle holding a *bundle of arrows.* Seems they did away with that in recent years.

But.

That means something, too.

No axe.

When I was hurt, I became a victim. I allowed him to place fear in my life. I allowed him to change what I thought about the human race...I gave him power.

Then there came a time that I took that power back. I gave back the fear and I took back the power that did not belong to him.

I did not forgive him, he had done nothing to deserve it. But I also did not let anything keep me from knowing I was free of guilt over what had happened. I do not have amnesia so I remember, but I know he carries the penance, not me. If he came to my door and admits his wrong, then I would say that it no longer matters to me so my forgiveness is not neccessary. He needs to understand his reasoning why he did what he did, and look in his own heart.

Forgivness is a communication heart to heart...it is a mutual agreement that harm has been done and a lesson has been learned...and that both should go away from each other being better people. Forgivness is not to salve anyones ego or to make yourself feel good. I released a good bit of my fear and hate to my Gods...they handled it. I do not dwell in a place of pity or anger. It happened, it is over and he has to live with it.

Why should we who are not Christian be told to handle things as if we were? I mean I see alot of Christians unable to handle grief, anger, frustration. An eye for an eye? a death for a death? millions killed for thousands killed? Where is the mercy or the forgivness?

I will handle it my way, living a happy and fear free life.
terra

Good one, as always, Starhawk. Maybe they'll get it, this time. :)

Hi, Jihadist... Let's say, the point here is not:

"Yes, we have to stop harm from being done and to prevent it from recurring. Setting examples by certain memorable punishments may not be such a bad idea - say, castrate rapists and pedophiles?"

Tempting idea... one that's been tried, ....only problem with some of these 'Memorable punishments' is that they don't deter or prevent crime, (people don't do crimes expecting to get caught, usually)

...rather they tend to amplify crimes: the death penalty means people will kill more, ...cops, witnesses, etc, in order to escape that death penalty...

You give a rapist a choice between his weewee and killing his victim, he's probably going to choose his weewee...

That doesn't teach anyone anything. Or prevent harm. It's just about force. Not that force is never required, but if we lose perspective on what punishments *do,* then we don't address the root causes.

I'd say the real lesson about these things, is in how society teaches about sex and aggression. Associating sex with arbitrary and extreme punishment is a big part of these root problems: too often religions repress sexuality until it comes out, not as a blessing, to be expressed in real love and respect, but as anger or exploitation or self-centered victimization.

That's not to say that punishments aren't necessary, but having confronted my share of abusers and rapists and pedophiles, I know that unless we as a society establish more of a social awareness of respect and responsibility, not shame and sin and shadows and the like, then society will keep making more perpetrators... and more victims.

That strays a bit from the topic of 'forgiveness,' but there's more to righting wrongs *than* punishing people.

Pedophiles (real ones, not minorities *accused* of being pedophiles cause even the self-proclaimed righteous can't necessarily tell the difference) present a particular challenge to our society, as we're still in flux, here. Biological sexual maturity comes about well before the end of the extended 'childhood' our complex society requires ... this is a good thing, of itself, but if this is brought about by trying to *repress* sexuality, rather than *inform* it, people reach the age of majority with a lot of baggage about it which can take a lot of unpleasant forms, from a simple frustrated incompetence about one's needs, or a tendency to treat it as empty gratification, (whether this is by sanctimoniously devaluing it or indulging in rather banal hedonism) ...to much darker and more hurtful things.

Most Pagans I know raise kids with a positive respect for themselves and their sexuality and their boundaries, not with an idea sex is shameful and dirty or sinful, (which ideas tend to create cover and shadow for predators: they choose victims that are easily 'cut from the herd' and isolated.) Our kids know what sex is, aren't afraid to even talk about it, understand acting on it is 'for later,' ...like driving a car or voting, ...and know unequivocally that if someone tries to do something exploitive to them, that they can speak up, say no, and have the support of their families and communities. And Gods, for that matter.

That's a big part of what we can learn from instances of abuse... not simply a punitive model, but that we can and should protect and support each other. That we're worth it. Everyone is.

Sin-and-punishment models can confuse these simple facts... they tend to have as much or more scorn for the victims as the perpetrators, ...and, I note, in cases of child sexual abuse, there seems to be more an atmosphere of 'OMFG sex!' than necessarily an understanding that it's *abuse.*

As a result, too, 'mere' physical abuse and violence get a lot less attention, ...in fact, physical abuse is openly advocated by some people who propose extreme punishments for pedophiles. (not that I haven't proposed a few, myself in my own time. You may notice few things anger a lot of Pagans as much as abuse of the innocent. )

It's all part of the same thing, really.

Society, I observe *is* still learning, though. It wasn't too long ago when rape victims were pretty much on their own, if they were dressed in a way a judge found 'immodest,' or if they'd had premarital sex, or weren't straight, or otherwise could be blamed for their own abuse.

Making the punishments extreme (especially when ineffective: if I recall correctly, New York tried castration, usually chemical, of pedophiles, but it didn't stop them finding ways to reoffend) ...when society is still fuzzy on who's in the wrong or has rights under what circumstances... doesn't help make amends.

Some folks, even, are unclear on *why* rape and pedophilia are *wrong.* It's still used as a defense when rapists and murderers say, 'I was so upset to find out this person was gay or transsexual, I just had to brutally rape and murder them.'

Some folks, in fact, are so bent on *punishing* women for some 'sin of Eve' that they want to not only force women to bring children sired by rapists to term and raise them, but also to give these rapists 'Father's rights' and legally-ordered access to their victims thereafter.

Lesson not entirely-learned, yet, apparently.

Not so far from what I just heard on the radio about a woman in Saudi Arabia being whipped and going to jail for being gang-raped... And having more lashes added for appealing.

Extreme punishments don't help when people are unclear on who's to blame, or even, in fact, where the crime lies. Do you think extreme punishments for rape deterred those men, when they know their society heaps more scorn on the victims, and that *because* of the extremity of the punishments, it's almost impossible for them to be convicted?

Fixing injustice is more involved than focusing on punishing someone.

It involves standing with the victims, not burdening them with some guilt about justice and 'forgiveness.' It involves reaffirming the *value* of what was violated in them, and as a society addressing the real root causes in an engaged way, not using it as an excuse to make things worse.

Christians have criticized Terra for not dropping the charges against a man who had attacked and threatened her for years... still was, as far as she knew... to give up any slim protection an unsupportive society could allow her if he struck again... so he instead of someone else could have an organ transplant.

The real issue there was not, 'Was Terra forgiving enough,' but, could she, standing alone in the face of such crimes and threats, even *afford to.*

People seemed pretty unclear on who had committed a crime, there... Terra, for being non-Christian? Or the Christian who thought she was fair game because she was non-Christian? How bout the cops and neighbors who didn't and wouldn't help her for the same reason?

Then she's supposed to say it never happened cause a man who showed not *even* remorse wanted her to save his life so he could come back at her without her even having an ability to complain again?

And they say she's 'lacking Christian forgiveness.'

Justice needs to go further than punishing people.

Forgiveness is more than a personal act of piety, or a blank check for the pious. It's certainly not something the offended personally owe offenders. It's part of community, and must occur in context of offenders *not* having the power to alienate their victims from the rest of humanity.

The first duty of community is to stop the hurt, to heal the hurt, to deny the offenders the power to isolate and dehumanize their victims. In fact, to help the ones hurt not *be* victims.

Sorry that got so long.

Jihadist, you say "memorable punishments may not be such a bad idea - say, castrate rapists and pedophiles?"

This tells me that you only believe that men can be pedophiles. That is not the case. There are female pedophiles. What punishment would you inflict on them that is comparable to castration?

In addition it tells me that you lack understanding of what rape and pedophilia is all about. It is not about the sex. It is about the power the perpetrator exercises over the victim. Castration would not change that.

I would make one quibble, however. Forgiveness is not about accepting apologies from remorseful offenders. We are called (whether merely as humans or as believers) to forgive even those who show no remorse whatever and don't ask us for forgiveness. Forgiveness is about the offended letting go of anger (as Mad Love describes the perfect warrior) and judgment (both being ignoble). It has nothing to do with the offender. Forgiveness not earned is the most noble of all. Earning forgiveness, and having an apology accepted, is a whole 'nother concept entirely, that of an interpersonal reconciliation.

And of course forgiveness has nothing to do with not taking all measures to stop harm or impose justice. still another issue.

Gaby: perhaps its because when a topic is explored without the intellectually lazy invocation of supernatural authority, some actually intelligent and insightful things are said that resonate with other human beings. She is right on that forgiveness is about one's own personal growth as a member of a community.

Starhawk,

I always wonder why it is that, no matter what the subject, your words always ring through loud and clear.

Thank you for another well thought out, beautiful essay.

This is a great article.. and sums up pretty well what I've come to learn over time. It's about the lesson.

When it come to righting a wrong a warrior must be impeccable. The sword of Justice must never fall in anger. The sword of Anger is another weapon with another purpose entirely. Therefore forgiveness must come first. To do otherwise is to put your own soul at risk.

To be clearer: start with not feeling separate from other people or nature. Forgiveness is easy, and flows naturally from loving people. In answer to “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing”, caring enough to take action and protect others also flows from this. Caring action and forgiveness are not incompatible, they are instinctive is you concentrate on the important bit – not being a murderous, us-and-them, power-hungry bigot. (*Cough-for example-cough*)

I agree with Starhawk. Unconditional forgiveness is not the point – having enough humility to do so is valuable, but immediately providing forgiveness without further action does not help the wrongdoer or their victims.

In most neopaganism, there is a very strong emphasis on self-responsibility. We do not give over our decision-making to a rule list drawn up by others, or rely on a later unconditional absolution. We are responsible for our actions AND their consequences, and in modern Wicca that often involves the rede (which states “harm none”). But we can harm by omission – by failing to act, just as much failing to later forgive.

We also don’t believe that we are unworthy, and must ask forgiveness from a Creator in an atmosphere of guilt or fear of punishment. We know when we’ve done wrong, and we have to live with it. Seeking forgiveness from others can lead to taking action to repair the wrong that was done, and have a doubly positive outcome.

“Witch” is an active word: witches make change happen. Sensible action to prevent harm to others is not revenge. Revenge itself is pointless, since it doesn’t give you what you want (which is for the thing never to have happened in the first place.) Also, if I dislike someone that much, I want them out of my head. Obsessing about harming them back does not do this, or make me the better person.

Forgiveness achieves a number of good things, but most of them are also brought about by “not being an ass”. Want peace. Reject violence. Respond to injustice with love, even if this means acting in a loving way to stop it.

Atrocities are not something to be allowed, and if we let a rabid dog or psychotic leader run loose, we become responsible for the next person they harm. It can be difficult to imagine ever forgiving an atrocity, but the question shouldn’t be asked until the situation is made safe. As Starhawk has previously said, repentance is an essential part of the process – it’s actually impossible to forgive someone who won’t accept that forgiveness. If the murderer doesn’t think he was wrong, or would do it again, no healing has taken place and one party saying “I forgive you” is meaningless. It’s good to be *ready* to forgive, to have enough peace in your heart to make that possible, but it doesn’t help them or the victims.

Regarding the obligation to stop wrongdoing, a belief that I share, here is a good quotation:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke

Starhawk,

Another beautiful post, thank you. Some of it really touched deep: my deepest wounds are from loved ones, whom I can forgive, and from my own actions. I have great difficulty forgiving myself.

I have often wondered if the Amish are the only true Christians. Perhaps because they are pacifists, they not only take forgiveness of enemies seriously, they actively practice it. I will never fight except defensively, but I can never be a pacifist.

With great respect,

Arminius

I couldn't agree more.

Madame Starhawk,

Thank you for your essay here. All your essays in fact. And I feel like chatting to you a wee bit more today. Nothing better to do during lunchtime.

You stated: "When harm is being done, our prime concern should be to stop it."

Jaw dropping methods of tortures. Unusual and cruel punishments. Flimsiest reasons for war. We still can't stop all those.

We continue to harm fellow men, and fail to stop other men and themselves from harming one another, women and children. This goes for terrorists. This goes for governments.

Yes, we have to stop harm from being done and to prevent it from recurring. Setting examples by certain memorable punishments may not be such a bad idea - say, castrate rapists and pedophiles?

I can hear the audible gasps and cringes of men, and cries of the unjustness and unproportionate punishments for those crimes. This goes for religous tenets and laws. This goes for secular laws.

As for South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation process, it is a noble example. I was initially cynical of the process after reading reports (that may or may not be true) that Nelson Mandela was let out by his jailers after he, among others, assured that he will not seek revenge or punishment for crimes, abuses and human rights violators committed during the apartheid regime.

That had seem conditional for Mandela's release. It had seem to be the onus of responsibility was shifted to the victims of the apartheid regime to be moral and ethical in "letting off" the formulators, enforcers and abusers of apartheid. It had seem not enough to compensate for the unjustness of the apartheid regime.

In retrospect, if Mandela had not undertaken that Truth and Reconcialition process, it would have worsen South Africa's racial and social divide and not heal the nation. And now we have South Africa's national anthem in six languages for six set of verses if I heard it correctly.

Forgiveness is deem necessary by many to move forward even if we are not fully satisfied that the perpetrators only state their remorseness, seek repentance, and to ask for forgiveness as in the case of the South African Truth and Reconcialition process.

So, there is no other way then, but to let it rest, to let it go, so there be no continuing hatred, resentments, cycles of revenge and vengeance.

Remorse and asking for forgiveness seems more and more like a "morning after" effect and whine for behaving badly under the influence of whatever and whomever.

Ruminations of "Where did I go wrong?" also seem more and more like a "morning after" sulk of the self-absorbed and self-centred ones who could not see, would not see, failed to see, nor think much about the consequences of their actions on fellow men. Until they got caught and were reprimanded. That's putting it mildly.

I suppose, after seeing our friends drunk and/or doped senseless and consequently may commit unspeakable and regretable acts, we are expected to be understanding and forgiving when they said they are not aware of what they have done?

Perpetrator : "Where did I go wrong? I'm sorry. Please forgive me."

Victim : "Oh for heaven's sake! It's your lack of self-control/psychotic behavior!".

Perpetrator : "If you don't forgive me, I can never live with myself!"

Victim : "And what about my having to live with what you have done to me? "

Crimes small and large, can be stopped by us if we want to. And always easier to look at the faults, the crimes of others without looking at our own personal faults and failings. How can we forgive ourself for that?

Thank you and best regards

"J"