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When I was a child I tried hard to abandon faith and trust nature. I fought the strong and did nothing to the weak I thought were around me because they had been wronged and to do wrong and I did not see that because of their medicine. So you must see everything to survive well.

to me the great sorce of society lies in da mist of despair. society as a whole shud be generated with one purpose one purpose only - FAITH- no matter what ur believes. so be it. if that would to happen we would be living in a paradise. but hey we the 'human race' and as a wise person once said 'im a human being not a human doing' and i strongly believe we all spirtual beings. some maybe more than others. how u get intouch with yours will reveal ur real self and your purpose. im typing this from a conner in south africa. id like to believe i have a relgoin but 4 now i live and let live. ive been born with a 'gift' of seeing the spirtual realm beings what ever it may meen and the dark omen of da ppl close too me about to die- hear them calling me.... u can say im a solar witch of my own belives and dat of pagnism and wicca. feel free to commet it always good to hear from someone who belivies too.....

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers will prevail over our celebrations tonight or the Sun rise tomorrow.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

Epictetus the Pious also said:

“When we are invited to a banquet, we take what is set before us; and were one to call upon his host to set fish upon the table or sweet things, he would be deemed absurd. Yet in a word, we ask the Gods for what they do not give; and that, although they have given us so many things!”

--- The Golden Sayings

Though many Christians would immediately take this to heart because of its evident truth, though slightly jarred by "the Gods", there is no monotheism there.

Also, I am sorry to hear of the fear of your religious symbols and of the illegal and immoral responses you describe.

Dear Mad Love,

"Remove the Pagan trappings from Christianity and you're not really left with a whole lot, are you?"

"No offense meant to The Moderate, Arminius, or anyone else. I do tend to see Christianity as a Pagan tradition that has largely lost touch with its roots, but still a valid path all the same."

No offense offered in my opinion, and certainly none taken. Those who really study Christianity know that there was a tremendous Neo-Platonic influence in the doctrinal arguments concerning Christology. The Gospels of the eye witnesses (Matthew, and Mark) , the ones from interviews of the eye witnesses (Luke, and John) recounted events not easily comprehended. The business of the second century and onward was to understand interpret that.

The Hellenist world had the most advanced logic, reason, and philosophical discourse, in those times logic and theology were practiced together. The neoplatonist pagans had the goods on how to understand and think about things, and their methods were used in all the counsels during the foundation of Christianity.

For example, Philo of Alexandria harmonized Platonism with Judaism through allegorical interpretation. Clement (a Christian Platonist) and Origen (student of Clement) followed this path in their belief in Logos (The Word), which had spoken to the Jews in the Torah, and to the Greeks through the philosophers. So yes, Platonic Paganism was drawn into Christianity to understand the person of Jesus, and the Christian Godhead in general. It is still there.

The person of Jesus Christ is the central issue to us in Christianity, but the methods of understanding him were very much drawn from the Pagan traditions. The Pagans invented reason, the same reason used by Christians. And as G.K. Chesterton said: "Reason is from God."

All the best to you, and yours.

Dear PaganPlace,

"As for Epictetus, The Moderate, ...don't read *too* much monotheism into that,..."

I don't read any monotheism into that. Epictetus, like Aurelius goes back and forth between "The Gods", and "God". I will select the former for a near future quote.

Peace,

Mod

The Jungian side of me wants to say that all symbols belong to the Collective Unconscious and that the Collective Unconscious belongs to all of us. I won’t lay claim to having more of right to the Pentagram or the Cross or the Yule Tree or the words of Jesus or the syllable AUM or anything else than anyone else does. But like you, Pagan Place, I get a little miffed if someone else wants to claim they have more of a right to any of it than I do. I think that's where you're coming from, no?

Someone wants to borrow my pentagram? Go right ahead, try not to hurt yourself.

Every human being is born a sexual being. People just need to get a grip on that fact. Each culture and tribe, state, country..whatever ..has it's own concepts and taboos regarding the sexual behaviors of their group. Laws are made to control these behaviors for the good of the group and are generally enforced and agreed upon by the majority of that particular segment of culture or society. Is that a good thing? Yes and no. MORAL CONDUCT regarding sexual behavior CANNOT BE DICTATED BY ANY LAW. Sexuality is an inherently driven force from within each human being and only that individual can control their individual drive. Since sexual expression can be so diverse, it is unrealistic to establish laws relating to sexual expression unless it is in someway causing harm to others...ie: sexual abuse of children or any other being, sexual exploitation by cooercion, rape, etc. Having spent the majority of my adult life in social work, assisting in counseling sexual abuse therapy for children, perpetrators and mothers in collusion, preparing children to testify in court, conducting in depth long term research on acts of abuse and the long term effects on the psychological and emotional wellbeing of adults and children...I tell you all right now that sex is the most powerful force that directs the human psyche. I am the first one to stand up and say...prosecute a sex offendor. But due to the insights I've gained from my work...I am grateful that my Pagan Path has been a tool that I have been able to introduce to many victims of abuse and neglect to help them realize that they can have a healthy natural sexuality through the Goddess...free of fear, scandel, and guilt but at the same time...bearing the responsibility for their own sexual behaviors. There are times I have to wait until a child I have worked with is no longer on my caseload and has legally reached adulthood before I can introduce them to the Goddess and point them toward a path to healing those old scars. A good number of them now dance regularly at festivals where the Goddess is honored by the ritual dance and a sacred sexuality. My concern is that the search for the Goddess will remain a mystery path...open for all those who truly seek. Do I care what the Christians think? Nope. And I don't want them at the ritual dance either...I don't want the power and magick of a beautiful healing and natural force contaminated by their fear and inability to accept their own sexuality as a spiritual force. That's all folks.

"Remove the Pagan trappings from Christianity and you're not really left with a whole lot, are you?"

I wonder if that's not exactly the fear certain people are playing upon to various ends... They may not return the favor when they claim the Rede is a libertine version of *their* Golden rule, but have we ever begrudged a Christian a Yule wreath?

I think you've touched on a very real fear that may motivate some things... That they fear if they don't claim everything, they wil be left with nothing.

I'm pretty sure I was at least nominally-Christian in my last life. If people wanna scream about souls, was a tree or a wreath or a light any less mine then than it is now?

Kind of had the notion that wasn't the point, though some may tell you otherwise.

Terra, I can appreciate the story you shared. It sounds like a pretty clear case of someone not seeing the forest for the trees. Because as I see it, Christianity is far more Pagan than a pentagram is Christian. Remove the Pagan trappings from Christianity and you're not really left with a whole lot, are you?

All kidding aside, they should leave the pentagram alone and maybe we'll let them keep using the cross.

No offense meant to The Moderate, Arminius, or anyone else. I do tend to see Christianity as a Pagan tradition that has largely lost touch with its roots, but still a valid path all the same.

Much love to everyone!

I do wonder if you understand, though, Moderate, that in the past seven years, Pagans have become in large measure *afraid* to openly wear a pentacle...In America?

Not without reason, (I keep a little one under my blouse at all times) but, do you understand what this means?

Do you know what it'd be like to discover ten minutes into a police interrogation for just being there in public (ironically, dressed more modestly than others around) that your crucifix slipped out of your blouse?

It's gotten that way with pents, thanks to aggressive disinformation campaigns in churches and even police departments.

Or, let's put it this way: Pagan businesses are getting firebombed,having nooses left as lynching threats on their doors, ...look at Darla Wynne, this stuff happens, here and there. You think those folks and the people who are supposed to hold them back can tell the difference between any of us and what they were taught to fear, never mind split hairs on 'who follows the Rede?'

Cause you know who gets to clean up?

Someone who does.

*koff.*

Sorry. I'm in pain and cranky. :)

Oh, and, Steve, when we say the Rede is important, and not to be glossed-over, well, ...there may be untold numbers of labels and groups who do not hold to the Wiccan Rede, ...or a generally-functionally-equivalent idea, but they generally take pains to dissociate themselves from the notion, if not Wicca, itself.

Few Neopagans or recons who aren't getting picky about the words and origins on the Internet, (these are disproportionately-loud) or who haven't developed their own named traditions, and even many of who do, for instance, wouldn't want me to perform their wedding in a pinch or tend their warriors or dead as a chaplain, or would find my counsel so foreign to them as to dispute on religious grounds, though I do qualify it in terms of my Heathen and Gaelic friends)

It's the Net. It's easy for people who think 'community' has something to do with 'agreeing with everyone' to start saying, 'Not All Pagans respect the Rede.'

Well, yes. But. There's something there.

To me, a lot of folks are doing serious and wonderful and careful stuff that means precisely nothing on the street or in the politics in which we're so-defensively-enmeshed, are *focusing too much on the diffeences, and not the diversity.*

In a lot of peoples' and would-be-and-actual-governmental powers' eyes, we're talking right to exist, here.

"I'm sorry if you're offended by the idea that the Wiccan Rede is in keeping with universal religious thought, but I'm not much for splitting hairs. "

You mistake me, there, Mad Love: ..it's certainly 'in keeping,' ...it's just not 'the same' or 'derivative.' It's something which has its own meaning to us. It's something which is often oversimplified by detractors as well as those who would claim, 'Oh, they're really saying the same thing.'

In practice, the Rede is, yes, simpler, but I think, really, far more demanding.

Not to be trivialized, or glossed over as 'the same as the Golden Rule,' (Any more than it's to be treated as a *commandment*)

In an interfaith setting, it's often quite difficult for people to look at the simplicity of it and see anything but chaos.

It's *really* about *cultivating a faculty for onesself, which the rest of our beliefs intertwine with life and experience,* not an abbreviated version of someone else's book of specific rules, see?

As for Epictetus, The Moderate, ...don't read *too* much monotheism into that, ...many of the Pagan philosophers appear to (at least in the writings not burned long ago) had a kind of Deism, (this is probably where the more familiar Deists got the term: also one must take full account of what hands these writings passed through:) ...certainly there is piety and wisdom, there, though, I'm not sure what you're getting at with death and the like, there. A statement you perhaps amplify, given your own religion's concerns.

"What is the first business of a philosopher? To cast away conceit: For it is impossible for a man to begin learning what he thinks he knows."

(Discourses, start of charter seventeen, P.E. Matheson trans)

You have to understand, too, that he was not writing exegesis or trying to justify a book, he was thinking stuff through. :)

I recontextualize a bit:

"Did none of us before *you* talk of "good" or "just?" Or did we use the terms vaguely and idly without understanding what each of them meant?"

"Who told you, Theopompus, that we had not natural notions and primary conceptions of each of these?"

:)

Arminius,

Thought for the day from Marcus Aurelius:

Take delight in going from one act of kindness to another with your mind always on God.

The Meditations
Book VI

Not bad for a Pagan, eh?

Dear Terra,

You are absolutely right on the pentagon. Pythagoreans constructed it precisely using compass and straight edge by 500 BC, and it appeared in Babylonian inscriptions by 900 BC. The Pythagoreans invested all numbers and shapes with mystical meaning and equated the points to the five elements of Man, and with the healing Goddess. Knights Templar used it, as did other Christians. Being as how there were pentagrams used in Mesopotamian City Seal impression circa 3,500 BC, it sound like the Christians are Johnny Come Lately to its use even if they started 1 AD. The Pythogoreans were also a late addition by this timeline.

The Free Masons have a nice web site on the symbol owing to their use of it over time.

It would be interesting to hear from you about the Wiccan history of the symbol. The web is pretty sensational about this thing. Almost a bad as UFOs. :-))

Always interesting to try and learn something new every day.

Peace,

Mod

Terra,

Thanks. I wish I could take your classes too.

Arminius

Moderate,
Athena is correct...it is a good thing when we can share. Communication builds bridges and that is what we need more of; it's hard to hate and fear people you know.

There is too much fear in this world, it is causeing death and destruction, we each are responcible for this world...we each have a chance to make it better.

terra

Arminius,

I hand it to you for being open enough to want to understand. Thank you for that.

I have a friend that happens to be a Christian Pastor...he came to me wanting to know the truth of what Witches really are...not the hype or old wives tales, but the facts. So he set out in the Pagan sites and chat rooms and was eventually sent to me. I have known him now for many years and he has taken my classes. He makes the most beautiful candles and grows wonderful herbs. He is a dear friend and knows who we are, and who we are not.

There are other Christians in my life that are open to the truth. Dear sweet people who walk their religion in a true and loving way.

Blessed be,
terra

Steve over across the Big Pond -

Thanks for the education. I had already begun to appreciate the diversity of Pagans. You will find, however, that Christians are all over the map too. Get a pentecostal and an eastern orthodox in the same room, and try to persuade them that they are of the same religion... then throw in a coptic, and the pentecostal and the eastern orthodox dudes will both agree that he must be from another planet.

Of course Hinduism is also a prime case of diversity. And I have read somewhere that Buddhism is the same.

Lots of peoples, lots of beliefs. We gotta have that dialog going for sure.

Arminius

Thanks, Moderate! We like you, too. :D Most Pagans (I can't speak for all of them) are very happy to work with people of other faiths, as long as they're treating us with respect. There's a lot of good that can come from interfaith dialogue.

Arminus: Yes, the pentagram was *primarily* a Christian symbol a couple of centuries back and is even found in Cathedrals in the UK. It was widely used to symbolise the five wounds of Christ.

These things change, though. Show a pentagram to 1000 people today and they'll all say it's anti-christian in some way (usually from watching bad 1970's horror films!) So today it most definitely is accepted as a primary symbol of paganism and ceremonial magic, and not Christianity, and I think it's fair to claim it as such.

As for the Rede: It's not a rule that MUST be followed, even in initiatory Wicca. And yes, it comes from Wicca and not the many, many other strands of neopaganism around today.

I've mentioned a couple of times how big and diverse paganism is compared to Christianity, and how we could have 10 panelists on here and still not be properly represented. Off the top of my head right now for example, including semi-religion magical orders, I can think of:

Druidry (OBOD, ADF, many more), Wicca - Gardnerian / Alexandrian, Wicca - Dianic and Reclaiming, Wicca - Eclectic and other, Asatru / Nothern Traditions, Seidr, Golden Dawn, OTO, Typhonian OTO, Thelema in general, Chaos Magick, Enochian, Khemetics, Neo-shamanism (Harner's Core Shamanism, etc), Celtic Reconstructionist, Greek Recon, Fellowship of Isis, Aurum Solis, BOTA (Foster Case), Society of Inner Light (Dion Fortune/Gareth Knight), Theosophy, Feri Trad, Non-religious Hedge/Kitchen witch...

I could do this all day. Now, maybe 3 of those will use the Wiccan Rede, in varying amounts of strictness. Across the whole list you have groups with (stereotypes of) mostly vegetarian hippies, radical feminists, boar-roasting right-wing men with axes, almost scientific magicians...

Starhawk has been much more successful than I expected at putting across a view that includes (or at least does not conflict with) what most religious pagans believe. We argue a lot within the same group, let alone between different ones, but the diversity is welcomed. There is no rede for every path - since there's practically nothing that applies to more than one - yet a combined neopagan ethos seems to come out of it.

Terra,

Interesting - I never knew of any Christian claim to the pentagram. That symbol most certainly predates Christianity, and any so-called Christian claiming it was either badly misinformed (alas, not uncommon), or simply stirring up trouble. If there is any Christian connection to it, it is very much on the edges. The pentagram is yours, as the cross is ours, and I have absolutely no problem with that. Nor should anyone.

Arminius

Mad Love,
I agree there is much we all need to find that we can share...but let me tell you a story.

Many years ago I went into a Pagan Chat Room...I was new to Chat rooms and so kind of kept silent (believe it or not). I read where someone that was obviously Christian(came in to rile the natives) claimed our Pent. Now that kind of got my dander up. I know that the Pentagram was found on neolithic cave walls...and was used by the ancient Greeks and Babylonians. The Pythagoreans called it mathmatical perfection. It was called Blessing and Wholeness...and also was called Hygieia, after the Goddess of Health. As well as by the neo-pythagoreans as representing the five classical elements: air,fire, water, earth and Divine.

I know that Christians used it...But that is different then claiming it. It's like the next door neighbor that borrowed your shovel...and the next time you see it, his name is on it.

The Pent has an ancient history in Paganism...and at the time I said to this person..."It is ours and you can not have it!"

Then there is Easter/Eostre, Christmas/Yule,well and the others...

We do have much to share...but can we not learn that we have our differences and should respect each other...and connect to the Namaste in each other, in spite of those differences? Do we have to be Christian lite to earn respect and acceptance?

I have worn a Pentacle for over 30 years...at first on a long chain so I could hide it...But now it shows at all times...and on the index finger of my left hand. It's mine. It's not a cross and the Rede is not the Golden Rule.

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, I get a bit huffy about our laws (to many say we have none) and our prime symbol,(too many have been punished for wearing it).

Blessed be,
terra

Hi, Mod,

You said: "If you persecute others in the name of Jesus, then you must ask yourself who you really follow; for Jesus has not asked this of you."

I totally agree. Persecution has no place in Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. But defense, when required, is ok.

As to throwing a few rocks - the ones I have thrown on these blogs are mostly in defense of friends here that are attacked. I have never endured an ad hominum attack here, but if it happened, I am sure the Celtic fury of my ancestors would quickly rise to the surface. And I might regret it.

Arminius

Dear Priver,

I have said to my fellow Christians, and myself at times:

"If you persecute others in the name of Jesus, then you must ask yourself who you really follow; for Jesus has not asked this of you."

"I think the biggest problem I have in having these types of discussions is how often someone is telling me what 'i' believe, using information that is outdated and most likely biased, and actually has very little to do with who I am or what I do. Rather than letting me speak for myself. I think that's when I get cranky and the rocks start flying. :)"

It is amazing to me how often people react out of fear and how seldom they react out of understanding.

Yogi Berra once said: "You can hear a lot by listening." There is wisdom in that.

As to a few rocks, now an again, you have to defend yourself sometimes.

Peace,

Mod

Arminius
You're quite welcome, just a little something I found on the net.

Terra/Pagan Place
I'm certainly not trying to make light of anything. I just don't see how it's a bad thing if there is at least one principle we can 'all' agree on, subtleties of wording aside. As always with any ideal, its ultimate worth comes down to the implementation or lack thereof.

Moderate:
"Thank you. I am glad to be able to say something civil and get a kind response. People get so over wrought on these blogs sometimes."

Your kind of responses are what I look for in people. I believe that whatever the belief system (or lack thereof), it should be one that forces people to strive to be better all the time. To make life better for those who need a leg up. I think it may be what your Jesus was trying to get across.

"Ironically, I find some of the Evangelical Atheists on these blogs approximate the 1950's Catholics in their rigidity and hostility to those who differ from them. They really are fundamentalists in their own way, and true to form, they really hate to be told that."

Agreed. Raised Jewish, I have no background whatsoever in Christianity. Couldn't really do the atheism thing, either. But I'm fascinated with people's experiences and where they end up. It seems to me like the same experience in two different people can have multiple meanings. Even if it's a loss of faith in one and a reaffirmation of it in another.

Unfortunately most of my experiences with those people calling themselves Christian have been people telling me I'm doomed for all eternity just because of who I was born to. Which is no different really than someone saying I'm 'deluded' for believing as I do. So it's nothing new as a Pagan for me. Just a matter of degree, I guess.

It's taken me a couple go rounds with the biblical literalists for me to get it through my head that the first sign of true wisdom may well be to learn when or around whom I should keep my mouth shut. :)

I think the biggest problem I have in having these types of discussions is how often someone is telling me what 'i' believe, using information that is outdated and most likely biased, and actually has very little to do with who I am or what I do. Rather than letting me speak for myself. I think that's when I get cranky and the rocks start flying. :)

I choose to look for people of any faith who work to make society better for all. I guess I surprised myself and ended up an optimist. I am certainly willing to stand with those of any or even no faith who recognize that the way forward is not to create more division but to work twice as hard to bridge the gaps.

Blessed be.

Dear PaganPlace:

This is one of the Golden Sayings of Epictetus that I was referring to yesterday:

"What wouldst thou be found doing when overtaken by Death? If I might choose, I would be found doing some deed of true humanity, of wide import, beneficent and noble. But if I may not be found engaged in aught so lofty, let me hope at least for this—what none may hinder, what is surely in my power—that I may be found raising up in myself that which had fallen; learning to deal more wisely with the things of sense; working out my own tranquillity, and thus rendering that which is its due to every relation of life. . .

If death surprise me thus employed, it is enough if I can stretch forth my hands to God and say, "The faculties which I received at Thy hands for apprehending this thine Administration, I have not neglected. As far as in me lay, I have done Thee no dishonor. Behold how I have used the senses, the primary conceptions which Thou gavest me. Have I ever laid anything to Thy charge? Have I ever murmured at aught that came to pass, or wished it otherwise? Have I in anything transgressed the relations of life? For that Thou didst beget me, I thank Thee for that Thou hast given: for the time during which I have used the things that were Thine, it suffices me. Take them back and place them wherever Thou wilt! They were all Thine, and Thou gavest them me."—If a man depart thus minded, is it not enough? What life is fairer and more noble, what end happier than his? "

This Pagan Stoic was pious and profoundly understood the sacred.

Dear Priver,

"To Moderate and Arminius,

"You guys (girls?) are a breath of fresh air to have here on these boards. It's reading posts like yours that give me hope that Christianity and those who claim to follow Jesus can be much more than those who want to force their beliefs on other people. I've probably said that before, but it's great to be reminded every now and again. Thanks for that. :) We need more like you."

Thank you. I am glad to be able to say something civil and get a kind response. People get so over wrought on these blogs sometimes.

Along with Arminius, I also am a somewhat superannuated guy. I came from an RC background, which I vehemently rejected in favor of Atheism for close on to three decades. As I began to loose faith in, well, nothing, I studied the Pagan religions of antiquity, as well as Judaism, and Christianity. I pretty much missed out on Islam, and I still don't know too much about that one.

The nineteen fifties Catholic School my parents sent me to made me crazy, and for a time I thought that all Christians were like that. Slowly, I returned to having a theology, and then to having a religion. A Christian religion, but quite different from mid twentieth century Roman Catholicism which I encountered so long before.

I got a healthy respect for the Pagans and Jews as well as an ability to finally accept it that many fine people are Christians. During the time I studied the Pagans of antiquity I believe I learned to see things through their world view. There is a lot good and sacred to find there.

Ironically, I find some of the Evangelical Atheists on these blogs approximate the 1950's Catholics in their rigidity and hostility to those who differ from them. They really are fundamentalists in their own way, and true to form, they really hate to be told that.

So having been on all sides of the question I find it hard to be intolerant of others who differ from me. True, I can be a bit cranky when people throw rocks, but I try and get over it. I think everyone on these boards has cranky days, so I am in good company. Sometimes I even throw a rock or two back, but not on my better days. ;-)

All the best.

Mod

The Rede is not another Golden Rule..
It is more then that...Wiccans tend to think that our actions effect more then ourselves or those we are reacting with. That our actions cause change that we can not know. So we have to make sure that our actions do not have adverse reactions.

The Golden Rule seems to be just between people who are reacting together...to "treat others as you would want to be treated". In the Rede it is that, but also to be responcible for actions we put into motion that causes harm to the Earth, to the Gods, to ourselves amd even to the future.
The Rede is not the Golden Rule, it is our guide to living in a healthy community in harmony and balance,without harming the children of the Earth.

Do not mistake the Rede as a wishy washy bit of new age Kumbyha...

terra

About the Rede...

The Rede does not mean Law, but Guide.
An do what ye will but harm none.

It does not mean do what ye whim...it also says you have to think about your actions, and the consequences to the future. It means to acgknowledge other people and what your actions will mean to them. You are responcible. Like the pebble thrown in the pond, you are not only responcible for the ripples on the surface,, but the shifting sand beneath.

As humans we can not but fail at doing some harm, but we are meant to strive for harmlessness.

There are always those who make the claim, "there are other Pagans, not just Wiccans". Then they do not claim the Rede. Well it is called The Wiccan Rede for a reason. For those who do not claim the Rede, share your own moral guide. Inform those of us who may not know...for all religions have those guides.

Wiccans have more then the Rede...we have many laws, ethics and Principles..But those eight words in the Rede cover it all...the rest is just redundant when it comes to our relationship with the earth and its occupants.

Since Starhawk is the token Pagan here on the panel and those who make ourselves known here seem to be Wiccan, then we talk about what we know. Starhawk has earned all Pagan's respect for her...as Priver has said,she walks her talk and will stand by it with her life and effort.

Other Pagan's are welcome to share their path...we all might gain from the knowledge.
terra

"Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)"

No, the only logical explaination is that they were copies of the Pagan Greek and Zoroastrian astronomers, who discovered these things 2,000+ years beforehand. Granted, the Moslem world did have many contributions to astronomy in the Golden Era. But the foundations of what you posted was the work of others that came before.

ARMINIUS:
**Yes indeed, I am now more confused than before! But I continue to learn.**

I once had a math professor whose respone to a student who expressed confusion was "WONDERFUL! Because now you will wrestle with it until you understand it." I can't say that I agree that this is always a good approach to confusion, but I think in ther ealm of religion, it often is. And if you ever want to chat, you can always email me at yahoo.

Mad Love:
That is quite a list! Thanks, I have saved a copy.

Priver:
Thanks for your kind words. I'm a guy, 64 yrs old.

Paganplace,
Yes indeed, I am now more confused than before! But I continue to learn.

Arminius

Pagan Place:

I'm sorry if you're offended by the idea that the Wiccan Rede is in keeping with universal religious thought, but I'm not much for splitting hairs. I don't doubt that partisans of any and all 'isms' can explain how their version is different and much better than all the others, and how only they get it right, while all the others get it wrong. I tend to view things a little more syncretisticly though, and to me these all seem to be expressing pretty much the same idea-

Bahá'í Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself."

Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism:
"This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "

Buddhism:
"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

Confucianism:
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

Ancient Egyptian:
"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3

Hinduism:
This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism:
"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you" British Humanist Society.

Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5

Jainism:
"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism:
"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Roman Pagan Religion:
"The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Shinto:
"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

Sikhism:

Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism:
"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

Taoism:
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

Unitarian:
"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8

Wicca:

"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt"

Yoruba: (Nigeria):
"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Zoroastrianism:
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RAIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

I think it'd be particularly Un-Wiccan of me to say, 'Swear to the Gods, Next time I hear that particualar interpretation of the 'Golden Rule, I'm not responsible for the consequences,'

But it nonetheless wouldn't necessarily be pretty.

The Rede is *not* another way to say 'Golden Rule.'

It actually involves other people existing.

" Mad Love:

I'm no fan of dogma, but in my mind the rede or any other variation of the 'golden rule' sums it up nicely. That is, after all, why it is so universal in the first place. Think before you act. Is this action I want to take going to harm anyone? If no, proceede. If yes, reconsider. Rinse and repeat as necessary. Pretty simple really."

Personally, I'm actually pretty tired of people treating the Rede as some 'watered down Golden Rule."

I think, as many do, that the Rede goes a lot *further* than the Golden rule, for reasons above discussed.

The "Golden rule" is often the expression "Love thy neighbor as yourself* by people taught to *hate themselves and beg forgiveness.*

"Treat others as you would want to be treated" is said with a straight face by those who will literally *torture* you cause they think,as Canyon here says, 'It'll bring you to Christ.'

Rationale being, "If I were the person I was torturing, I'd want me to do any horror possible to prevent me from going to Hell"

They do actually say this. Even when trying to 'rape you straight.'

F** that noise.

The Rede is far less 'morally relativistic,' ironically enough.

Well said all. And I would also like to add that Starhawk represents one type of Pagan thought. The reason I like her so much is that she really puts her energy where her mouth is. She's a writer, yes, but she's not afraid to go out and stand up for what she believes in- and she makes her actions fit her words.

The fact that she is even on this board is a great step forward for us, but there is such a wide diversity of thought within the community that I for one, wish could also be represented. Isaac Bonewits, John and Caitlin Matthews.. these among many others are some folks who I wish could be heard more widely outside of our community. Whenever I talk to someone, I can only state how things work for me.. I can't claim to speak for all Pagans and I don't think anybody here does either.

The thing about the Rede is that often there's a balance with the Threefold Law- so for me at least it's often a question of trying to figure out how my actions will come back to me, proceeding very carefully, and learning from my mistakes.

To Moderate and Arminius,

You guys (girls?) are a breath of fresh air to have here on these boards. It's reading posts like yours that give me hope that Christianity and those who claim to follow Jesus can be much more than those who want to force their beliefs on other people. I've probably said that before, but it's great to be reminded every now and again. Thanks for that. :) We need more like you.

As someone who was raised Jewish I don't have a background in Christian theology- I'll be the first to admit it- but I am fascinated as to how other people end up with whatever belief system (or even lack thereof) that they do.

The only objection I have as far as any other religion goes is when others who don't know me or us try to define me, my lifestyle, or my community using really bad information that in actuality has nothing to do with us.

Trying to tell another person what that person believes and what their experience 'is' or shouldn't be tends to show more about the other's need for control rather than a willingness to put preconceptions aside and ASK questions to learn more. And that's where misunderstandings arise.

Hopefully through this forum we can do much better.

I'm no fan of dogma, but in my mind the rede or any other variation of the 'golden rule' sums it up nicely. That is, after all, why it is so universal in the first place. Think before you act. Is this action I want to take going to harm anyone? If no, proceede. If yes, reconsider. Rinse and repeat as necessary. Pretty simple really.

"Yes, we have at times. I love a good debate, and I think you do too. :^)) But thrashing out ideas does not imply hostility, and I have none for you or yours, or Starhawk et al."

Hey, I love a *good* debate, which isn't always what we get in the current climate. I'd rather we were quoting poetry and Epictetus at each other instead of trying to fight over who gets civil rights if certain good people I happen to be among aren't defamed as 'immoral' for being *different* from some model.

"I have a broad concept of theology that includes deductive religion and involvement and discussion with various historically contingent ones, like Christianity where I have my theological home, and others."

Deduction is one thing, ...but accepting sources and authorities because you're *attached* to them* leads to fallacy before you're out the deductive starting gate.

People may reason well or badly, but it's always what's taken as 'given' that really screws things up.

I have no inherent malice toward Christianity, yet when it becomes an instrument of tyrrany, it becomes my problem, as a Pagan, as an American, and as one who has Christian ancestors (and previous lifetimes) to make something right for.

(And if Arminius was confused before, that might *really* keep him guessing for a while. :) )

Hee, Arminius:

"The propensity of any given religion to have really diverse groups is endlessly fascinating. What is really interesting, however, is comparing Christianity's diversity with that of Paganism. 180 degrees off on source."

There are ways in which we are *not* so different: Christians like to see themselves as 'A religion,' (which really isn't the good part)

The good stuff about Christianity was in many ways part of a *movement,* which unfortunately got coopted by authoritarianism.

" Christianity arose from a single source;"

Less so when you think, hence all the conflict, internal and externalized, about those origins and who has the access to them, etc, etc. The *belief* in a single source doesn't mean there *was* one. The beliefs simply *expect* one to *contextualize* things consistent with a creed that tells you you must *believe* there is.

We're very different, but you're not *aliens,* and neither are we. :)

"Paganism from multiple sources. There are a lot of PhD theses lurking here."

Well, if neocons don't scream about and block anyone looking at it. :)

Much of it has everything to do with America, at least for us. Many try to use the fact to silence and erase us, but I actually think the way that Pagans of many different specific beliefs can work, live, coexist, and even *pray* together is some kind of experience that maybe some of our neighbors could benefit a fair bit from.

Frankly, if we really were out to get you guys, we'd keep it to ourselves and watch you rip each other to shreds, instead of providing ourselves as convenient scapegoats. But this is our country, and our world, too, and you're our fellows.

And hiding's been tried.

Speaking of Wicca, the *content* didn't just appear out of nowhere, but notice what'd just happened in the world, oh, I dunno, right about when what has been come to be known as 'Wicca' was 'initiated?'

Dear PaganPlace,

"Fair 'nough, Moderate. I know we've been at lockhorns in the past. Connotations of that turn of phrase and all. :)"

Yes, we have at times. I love a good debate, and I think you do too. :^)) But thrashing out ideas does not imply hostility, and I have none for you or yours, or Starhawk et al.

I have a broad concept of theology that includes deductive religion and involvement and discussion with various historically contingent ones, like Christianity where I have my theological home, and others.

Dear Arminius,

I come from a conservative parish in the TEC (formerly known as ECUSA) and many people there are fine human beings.

However, I believe that it is a profound error to persecute people in the name of Jesus Christ. He did not persecute others, and his example was to accept persecution rather than dish it out. Personally, I think that all people who consider themselves Christians should meditate on that when discussing religion with people who differ from them. The various liberals and conservatives within the TEC could profit from meditating on that when they deal with each other, too.

Moreover, Jesus was silent upon the issues at the core of the possible schism, and I believe that this must have been deliberate given his membership in a Greco-Roman society.

Nice to talk to you.

Mod

Fair 'nough, Moderate. I know we've been at lockhorns in the past. Connotations of that turn of phrase and all. :)

(and please pardon, all, if I've been dropping out words and letters out all over the place. )

Dear PaganPlace,

"You make it sound as though there's any basis to the defamation we 'get an earful of.' :)"

Not intentional. Not what I think or feel either.

Mod

Let's put it this way... Starhawk, if we really had to pick just one representative, makes a *great* representative for what the Pagan community, in the aggregate, really is.

It's very easy for a Pagan of almost any stripe, for instance, to compare themselves to Starhawk speaks of, and expect another Pagan to know what they're talking about, (even if in uncharitable terms.)

Still, we proudly say that 'Leading Pagans (like some see religious leaders) is like herding cats...'

As much as it's necessary to speak of our *unity:* ...that in fact we're a legitimate and real and present faith community at least as coherent as the major ones: ...that the whole thing *isn't* 'Believe what you arbitrarily feel like' ...internally, our very *fractiousness* is part of our *protection* from becoming the very things we eschew about certain more authoritarian religions.

Personally, I think a lot of the 'Young Turks' love to assail the Rede as 'dogma we should be avoiding,' cause it's about the only verbal 'dogma' *to assail.* It's good for us. Keeps us honest. For many of us, a lot hangs on those eight words. Gods know we wouldn't wanna turn em into an 'idol'. :)

Paganplace,

Thanks for the (beginning of my) education.

I am aware, somewhat, of the diversity of those under the Pagan umbrella, or in the Pagan tent, whatever. I have, to be sure, made the mistake of equating Pagan directly with Wiccan. My bad.

The propensity of any given religion to have really diverse groups is endlessly fascinating. What is really interesting, however, is comparing Christianity's diversity with that of Paganism. 180 degrees off on source. Christianity arose from a single source; Paganism from multiple sources. There are a lot of PhD theses lurking here.

Looking forward to more education!

Arminius

The Pagan (and what might arguably be a broader small-p pagan) community is quite wide and diverse, Arminius, and there are actually numerous 'sects' under that umbrella. (Also some folks who don't really represent the umbrella classification at all, but kind of want to include themselves, actually.)

There are various 'Reconstructionist' groups who try to more-closely re-create the actual specific ancient ways as practiced in detail by certain sets of ancestors, a broad and largely theologically- independent 'Heathen' community who follow various Nordic ways largely based on the Eddas and sagas, (I hang out and celebrate a lot with these folks a lot, lately: where I live, the local Heathen kindred kind of has that role that the generalized-Wiccan-types usually play, and we get to be the 'tokens' :) ) ...some who follow specific folkways, those who try to reconstruct Classical sources and practices as closely as possible, various ancient Egyptian types, some Druidic revivals that may or may not call themselves Neopagan, ...the list goes on...

When we generalize, we're speaking pretty much of the general Pagan community, which on the whole and as a faith community, is very influenced by the specific practices and teachings of Wicca, ...what I might call 'popular American Wiccaney Paganism' is very much the baseline around which most of us get together, one could say. Terra's a traditional Wiccan priestess, for instance... I come from there in a lot of ways, and it's still spiritual 'home' in many ways, though I consider myself more-affiliated with the 'community at large,'

When the media says 'Pagan' they often use it interchangeably with 'Wicca' because they like the easy equivalence of "Pagan=Wiccan=Witch=Possibly-Construable-as-Satanic=Headline"

As such, the Wiccaney types tend to be most of the ones out here trying to do the interfaith work, while, sometimes, some folks use us as 'the would-be-authority' to work out some leftover issues with authoritarian religion through Internet arguments, or as something to bash to try and distance themselves from the 'kooky-spooky' media images.

Let's not even get started on the 'What's True Wicca' arguments. I don't have time for much of it. :)

Rather like Christianity can run the gamut from the UU to the Amish to the Quakers to the Gnostics to the Culdees to Pat Robertson to the Aryan Nations, we've got quite a broad community, and ours doesn't even share a source text or a single ethnicity. :) But we don't tend to think that way, anyway. :)

The Pagans facing church-and-government persecution in Greece, for instance, are in large measure Classical reconstructionists, though not all. They're still Pagans cause they follow Pagan Gods, but many might take issue with the Rede as a theological statement... you still hear it from some of em, though. :)

Anyway, you bet that's confusing, but Paganism isn't a *creedal* religion in the first place.

Basically, Arminius, those of us you've spoken to are of necessity *generalizing,* (or speaking from our own beliefs like everyone else gets to,) about the community we're trying to represent.

There aren't 'Two Redes,' at least?

Basically, about any American Pagan in 'the community' who doesn't vociferously call herself something else either follows the Rede or does something similar under their own terms. As I said to Hildegard, it's not a Pagan Commandment, it's a Wiccan Rede. It just happens to be key to many Pagans' beliefs.

I'll try and clarify a bit more, but there's that to chew on. I'm pretty tired and sore from some weather-related exertions at the moment, and this isn't the best time to try and explain *every variation.* :)

OK, you Pagans and/or Wiccans,

Hildegard said,
"Not all pagans are Wiccans, and that statement about harming none is part of the WICCAN Rede - not the PAGAN Rede."

Say WHAT?!? There are TWO redes?

Fill me in, please, inquiring minds and all that.

The rede that I have read here is profoundly appealing, and can be linked to the Golden Rule and to the Second Great Commandment.

Damn, just as I thought I was beginning to understand.....

Arminius

Hi, Moderate,

Good post there. Yes, we Episcopal types are historically big on tolerance and diversity of views. Pity that a schism is happening because of a few hard-headed groups.

With respect,

Arminius

"

Dear PaganPlace,

"Well, The Moderate, you'd be surprised what we hear about ourselves on the lips of those who think themselves 'Moderates.'"

"I am sure you do get an earful or three about it."

You make it sound as though there's any basis to the defamation we 'get an earful of.' :)

Oh, and anyone remember when I said a while back, 'You should see our internal debates? :)' We like our diversity.

So you know, Hildegard, this interfaith board can often be about 'Can you have *any* kind of Paganism and not be evil, selfish hedonists,' we can't qualify every sentence for people who don't follow the Rede: it's not a *commandment,* it's a ... Rede, and one that the community at large as I see it.

Someone said, "Paganism can't provide *a* good way to live, ...and it was asked, wouldn't that be *a* good way to live, ..say, if we all valued freedom, as long as no one is harmed by that freedom.

No one said it had to be 'the only,' in fact *my* response to that poster said that that qualification of his was not a real concern for us: ...you put those words in our mouths.

OK?

Dear PaganPlace,

"Well, The Moderate, you'd be surprised what we hear about ourselves on the lips of those who think themselves 'Moderates.'"

I am sure you do get an earful or three about it.

Well, The Moderate, you'd be surprised what we hear about ourselves on the lips of those who think themselves 'Moderates.'

I'm a big Epictetus fan, myself, though. :)

Anyway, Hildegard, while there are a lot of differing branches of Paganism, some of whom don't care much for Wicca, the Rede still is one of the most profoundl influential statements of ethics in the broader community: it takes a pretty narrow reading of it to insist it only has anything to do with harmles acts:

"An it harm none, do what you will:" this requires a) knowing your will, and b) evaluating things in terms of what harm it may do.

Clearly, in not all situations will there be a possibility where no one will be harmed, but this still places the duty to be free, to pay attention, to evaluate, and be of responsible good will ...on us: that's the effect of it.

We're a little Wiccan-heavy here, and welcome, but, being dismissive of a particular limited reading of the Rede doesn't really shed any light. :)

With regards to this statement:

How about "Harming none, do as you will."? Would that not be "a good way to live (for all of us)"?

No it wouldn't. Not all pagans are Wiccans, and that statement about harming none is part of the WICCAN Rede - not the PAGAN Rede.

There are many problems inherent in the Wiccan Rede, one being that most people do not understand the fact that it is only addressing permissible harmless acts. It does not say anything about harmful acts, whether to endorse them or to discourage them. You're on your own when it comes to harmful acts, as far as the Rede is concerned (and yes, I have read the full two-page version of the Rede).

Not only that, but technically the Rede applies only to Wiccans. It is not called the Asatru or Heathen Rede. It is not called the Hellenismos Rede. It is not called the Roman Rede. And there are many people of different pagan paths such as Asatru, Hellenismos, Via Romana, Kemetic Orthodoxy and others who simply have their own moral code that has nothing to do with the Wiccan Rede.

I get SO TIRED of Wiccans thinking they are the be-all, end-all of paganism!

Dear Pagan Place,

"Oh, and your words of support are appreciated, Arminius, though I do wonder how many more liberal/mainstream Christians believe the *facile* defamation about us that comes from the pulpits..."

Our church clergy is well versed in history and theology and understands that other paths exist than ours. (Of course, we choose ours because it suits us best. I think in that I do not differ from you.) The sad fact is that Christianity is too often identified with the televangelists and right wing politics, and many self identified Christians who opine here are intolerant. But many true liberal or mainstream Christians are anything but intolerant.

Personally I find Marcus Aurelius, a Pagan emperor Stoic, and Epictitus a Pagan slave Stoic to be two of the most pious writers I have read. For a time after my Atheism failed, I read a lot on the Pagans of Antiquity. They had deep ethics, faith, and deep connections to divinity. When I read the essays of Starhawk, I am reminded of that this remains true down to today.

Dear Arminius,

I am warmed by your support of our fellows, and support your views on tolerance. I also am an Episcopalian, which seems to be a "big tent" organization. But then it would have to be to tolerate someone like me, eh?. :-))

All the best.

Paganplace,

Yes, I am in a definite minority in the general picture of Christianity. I believe that most liberal Christians would accept Pagans if they knew where they are coming from. I also know that there is a substantial bunch that use Pagans as a convenient target. Why the hell anyone needs a target as an excuse for his/her own personal failings totally escapes me. A shadow of the satan thing, I suppose. Whether 'satan' exists does not interest me; if I follow the teachings of Jesus as best I can, then 'satan' is meaningless.

Christmas? I am not interested, mostly because it has been so corrupted. My Christian season is Holy Week, climaxed by Easter. Yes, I know and honor the Pagan connections there. But to me it is incredibly beautiful, sad but joyful, and very emotional. Just the memory of last year's Easter celebration still brings tears to my eyes. I am truly a sentimental old goat, am I not?

With respect,

Arminius

p.s., I love Jesus Christ Superstar.

Oh, and your words of support are appreciated, Arminius, though I do wonder how many more liberal/mainstream Christians believe the *facile* defamation about us that comes from the pulpits, (and even professional defamers who call themselves 'occult experts' and 'ex-Witches' and are given a podium by churches that find their story easier to believe than who we actually are and what happens to us all too much.)

It certainly seems to play all too well in the media when people *casually* defame us or lump us in with Satanists, or say *we're* doing something oppresive when we want equal religious freedom to what they enjoy.

It's become sort of a sound of the Christian holiday season, in recent years, ...accuse the Pagans of 'oppresing' people by breaking the illusion of monolithic 'Judeo-Christianity' by ....existing, apparently.

The 'culture warriors' have turned even your Christmas into a 'war against non-Christians,' with us portrayed as the 'oppressors' despite the reality of the situation and who we really are and what we really believe.

Thanks for that, Lady Terra.

I suppose I've seen enough of the effects that it does make me angry. The hardships imposed may have a tempering effect on us, (Gods know I wouldn't be who I am without a lot of the travels I didn't want to be forced to make, or have the view of the wonderful diversity and under-rated coherence of the American Pagan community,) but the hardship also causes real harm, not only to us, but to the society around us, ...not understanding what they become when they attack us based on willful ignorance and ideological intolerance. It won't stop with us... it never does.

Unless maybe we all get together and hold the line against this fascist darkness.

And this is in fact fascism we see developing in this religious hate and defamation and intolerance. I always wondered how that kind of thing came about... and didn't expect to spend this lifetime watching it.

It's not possible to take the Lady from the people: and most of our ways are what's there when all the noise and bluster of what some call 'religion' goes away, ...but a lot of damage can be done trying.

There's something to be said for 'death' and rebirth of religions, probably the same reason it works for plants and people and the like.

In some ways, the need to defend against defamation has really brought us into the public eye in ways that don't come naturally, and that's certainly an interesting development, though.

I'm proud of our people for generally being up to it. :)

Paganplace,
Yes, there are certainly some that take joy in makeing offerings at the feet of Discordia. They have to have people to put down so that they can feel big. That is their burden.

I do not let them effect me at all. After all:

We gather at the gate of autumn,
Under eaves and apple-branches,
In this meadow filled with grasses,
In these fields rich with twilight.

Those who hate can not force me to hate. But I will fight.
Those who have nothing of value can not take what I have,my honor.
They can marginalize us,but we have come back from the dead. They can not end us, they tried, they failed.
LOL...Merry Meet Again!!

PP, they are spinning their wheels and we are on the journey.

terra

Personally, Terra, I observe that most of the 'ignorance' of the intolerant is *willful, sanctified, and actively-promulgated to *serve* the intolerance, not so much caused by ignorance.

The way people'll lie to our faces about our own lives is an illustration of this.

I have thought it is because of the intolerance that many Pagans face much too often, that keep Pagans strong. If we had too easy a way of it, we would be lazy and start making exuses for going for the gain. As it is we each feel we are representing our religion...we take The Charge to heart and live our talk.(but then we have flakes too.)

Intolerance is caused mostly by ignorance. There will always be those that love to hate, but they are in the minority. I truly believe that a place like this forum, even though there are those who talk trash, does help to open minds.

I know that there are those Christians and others that are open to what Wicca is in truth, they are not filled with hate and malice toward us.
We need to learn to respect others and their integrity, no matter what religion they are.

terra

Paganplace, and other Pagans/Wiccans,

It grieves me to hear your stories of harassment, even persecution. What medieval attitudes some - too many - 'Christians' have! It is sickening.

I myself am open to a lot of criticism from the right wing gang, although I have not yet experienced much of it. Being a liberal Episcopalian, I support our gay bishop, and welcome any gay people to our church, where they are always welcome by all. (I am straight, for the record.) And the schism this is causing us upsets me. Interestingly, in the latest selection for a bishop for the Chicago area, a lesbian was in the running. She was not selected, but might have been. If she had been, she would have been ordained for sure. And then the fecal matter would have really hit the room cooling device. Why don't Christians read the Gospels more?

Arminius

Unfortunately, it's a form of bigotry with some historical precedent: claim someone has more wealth (undeserved wealth, of course) than the masses you want to lead around by hate, and they'll leap to self-righteous condemnation of some minority. (Sound familiar?)

...especially if they're all primed to believe that Christian believers are righteously-suffering for their beliefs, and anyone *not* of those beliefs must be selfish or lazy or greedy or 'lustful' or some such thing.

Even if they're going to Church in the better of two nice cars and voting for pious warmongers (and of course, culture-warmongers, who promise the same 'base' somehow that they'll never have to pay the taxes for it all... (leave it to the liberals to cover your deficit spending, so you can blame them for cleaning up the mess and do it all over again ...just don't touch the pockets of the rich.)

The accusations of our wealth and hedonism from various pulpits are patently-false... Especially compared to the hypocrites in government and authoritarian religion.

People who come to Paganism merely looking for an excuse to have sex or permission to have fun, (forget about money: people looking for money would take one look at our material things and drive on) ...quickly find that a) being Pagan takes *work,* too, (and the fact that sexuality is sacred to us tends to mean it's not the big, indiscriminate orgy the churches and media teach people to imagine,) and b) Actually, they never needed a religion's permission, anyway.

Sometimes, c) they play a lot with magic for selfish ends and quickly find why we observe a Threefold Law. But those types are usually more attracted to something without any Gods in it.

Some find out what it's really about and stick around, others go on to something else.

As for accusations of only-caring about the bank account. That's prety ridiculous. While we don't see anything essentially wrong with wealth or material things, our worldview doesn't really lend itself much to gathering a lot of excess wealth, (getting rich without doing things we consider 'harmful' kind of limits the options,) we don't have those church business networks, ...often get cut out of any family support or inheritance that might be there,

...And, heck, there's a lot of discrimination out there that can make an ordinary working stiff's job that much harder to get or keep. Try having a Pagan-owned business in a lot of places or getting a teaching job as a Pagan sometime. The churches'll raise a hue and cry and try to drive you out of town. We still often have to hide our religion just to be employed, never mind not-harrassed or attacked or have our homes and places of business vandalized, ...not to have people who believe what their preachers told them about us try to get our kids taken away...

You get someone in a business asking 'What church do you go to,' and certain doors just somehow never open, and people start finding fault over trivia, if you say 'I don't.' Not to mention trying to get you to go to theirs and/or calling you an 'atheist' if you say no more.

Not the path to wealth, I'd say.

The defamation has a lot more to do with the mindset of many Christians than anything. They seem to figure, "If I had access to the wonder of the universe and didn't fear Hell, I'd use it to satisfy all these 'base desires' I was taught I have." I think they think sexual appetites are boundless cause they're *always hungry.* I think they accumulate a lot of wealth and get jealous of things (they think) *other people have* cause they can't appreciate what they *do* have in an unconflicted way.

So they need 'villains' to project things on.

The Pagans I know just don't tend to find those 'temptations' others talk about so tempting, after all.

Seriously.

Paganplace,
I agree....I have to take up a collection from my students to replace ink and paper for my printer. That I use in their lessons. I do not charge my online students anything...not even a portion of my server fees.

We have elders that have given so much all their lives that they did not have the finances to live comfortably at the end of it.A famous Elder had to ask for help in paying for the medicines for him and his wife...a hard thing for a proud man.

We do not put our faces on TV and then spend the next 20 years begging the viewers for more money to keep them there.

We do not get houses, cars or jets.

We keep a day job while visiting hospitals, prisons, conducting worship circles, teaching, holding Rituals of Passage....keeping up our responcibilities for our families, friends, society.

What we do, we do for our Pagan community and the Gods....not for the jingle in our pockets or the fulless in our wallets.

terra

where's the Sam Harris blog when you really need him? All-in-all, though, it started out great with Starhawk's post...if I could only do that sacred thing with her...my life would be complete.

"Nothing is sacred to pagans, except their bank accounts."

Really? Cuz my bank account is not even remotely impressive. It's all I can do to maintain a positive balance from one payday to the next.

What's sacred to me? The love of my husband and my child and the unique bonds I have with each of them, the trust of the teenagers who come and go through my home as if it were their own, the dog who jumps up and licks my face when I walk in the door, the sun that warms me, the breeze that coolsl me, the rain that waters my vegetables and flowers. Friends and family who call on me when bad things happen, when good things happen, and fo no particular reason at all.

"Nothing is sacred to pagans, except their bank accounts."

The ridiculousness of your statement shows that you know absolutely NOTHING about Pagans or Paganism. I know only two independently wealthy Pagans. One received a tidy inheritance, and the other is the lottery winner from Baltimore. Most of us are trying to make a living like everyone else. We have no Creflo Dollars, Pat Robertsons, Joel Osteens, etc.

Secondthoughts,

You really should know of what you speak before opening your mouth.

Do you know anything about Paganism? Go back through Starhawk's blogs and read...learn something, then open your mind.

Arminius, thank you.

Intolerant,
My suggestion for Secondthoughts goes for you also. No one should go through life willfully ignorant. Not when you have the possibility to learn anything you want.
Don't you think that we have enough hate and intolerance in this world, that war between religions are killing millions and leaving hunger and homelessness in the wake?

Communication is the bridge between people...do not be so sure that you know who we are if you have not met us.
terra

Hee, Arminius. I'm sure that any given Pagan clergy would be glad to swap bank accounts with whoever told him that 'false witness.' Really. :)

Sometimes I wonder where they even *get* this stuff.

Hi, Paganplace,

Well, I just swung my verbal claymore! I have no use for anyone, of any stripe, that tells me what I should believe. Or not believe. And all respect to you Pagans for your tolerance.

Arminius

Wow.

See what we get to deal with, Arminius?

Like we're going to believe in the assertions of people that tell such lies about our own lives.

secondthougts (sic):

You said:
Nothing is sacred to pagans, except their bank accounts.

That is arrogant bigotry, which is better applied to right-wing 'Christian' televangelists.

Also, you might want to spell your name properly.

"To Pagans, sexuality is sacred"

I don't believe you. Nothing is sacred to pagans, except their bank accounts.

What makes you presume, Intolerant, that Paganism *doesn't* provide us with a good way to live?

Your "For all of us (to obey)" condition isn't a concern of ours. That's part of our 'good way to live.'

Much of what we have to say on social issues doesn't require worshiping our Gods to get something good out of the perspective. We tend to be aware of a lot of stuff most gloss over cause we *have* to be.

Who cares what we have to say?

Anyone can develop blind spots, (especially after putting a religious system in power for a millenium or more,) and that's part of why we Pagans *like* hearing other religions' perspectives on things.

Though the constant droning and thumping of *some* religious on 'My perspective is the only way cause I say it is,' gets pretty old pretty quick.

It'd be a lot funnier if not for the political force people like that try to apply over others.

Intolerant:
"...unless Paganism gives us a good way to live (for all of us), I really couldn't care less what it has to say."

How about "Harming none, do as you will."? Would that not be "a good way to live (for all of us)"?

Athena,

You are right in the pure sense of the law. But as long as he is Commander in Chief he should at least show some sense of decorum.

But it's not only the military who has these ethical codes, civilian government workers are bound by those as well. They are not as stringent as the military's, but it is an absolute no-no for a supervisor to make sexual advances to a subordinate, whether its consensual or not.

I find it funny that our law makers write up all this stuff, and then they put themselves above the law. It's always "Do as I say, not as I do".

Sorry, but I have no respect for people like that.

The U.S. President is a civilian, and not bound by the UCMJ. From the Uniform Code of Military Justice site:

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:

(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.

(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.

(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.

(4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay.

(5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force.

(6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.

(7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial.

(8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces.

(9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces.

(10) In time of war, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.

(11) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(12) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(b) The voluntary enlistment of any person who has the capacity to understand the significance of enlisting in the armed forces shall be valid for purposes of jurisdiction under subsection (a) and change of status from civilian to member of the armed forces shall be effective upon the taking of the oath of enlistment.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person serving with an armed force who--

(1) Submitted voluntarily to military authority;

(2) met the mental competence and minimum age qualifications of sections 504 and 505 of this title at the time of voluntary submissions to military authority:

(3) received military pay or allowances; and

(4) performed military duties: is subject to this chapter until such person's active service has been terminated in accordance with law or regulations promulgated by the Secretary concerned.

Steve B, UK, do you think there are any wrong actions that are wrong for all people? The reason I don't care what Paganism says about this issue (or any issue) is that unless Paganism gives us a good way to live (for all of us), I really couldn't care less what it has to say. God does not define morality either, mind you.

I think it's a good observation about the Netherlands, Ftuna.

"This power = charisma issue also underlies many sexual fetishes, I think: a way to enjoy sexual connection without any need for emotional connection.

Have I upset anyone in the bdsm community?"

I doubt you would: these folks are usually studiously-aware of what's going on. These aren't folks hiring a dominatrix for an anonymous spanking, either. They take it seriously and have deep emotional commitments to each other, or at least involvement in what's going on.

And it's kind of funny how what some radical Christians advocate as 'God-ordained life' is actually pretty kinky to a lot of BDSM folks.

I think it's actually the stridently-moralistic who more often have some seriously-displaced sexual issues going on, which is probably why they keep getting caught in indiscretions while trying to proclaim how 'perverse' they imagine everyone else is.

What's *really* perverse is channeling pent-up sexuality toward war and violence.

But, it's pretty obvious that this society in fact *does* bind up sex with power and authority and ideas of punishment... No wonder so many are cruising for a spanking, or getting off on 'You'll be punished by my God for not obeying me!'

My impression of the 'BDSM community' is people actually taking some responsibility for this in a constructive way. It's not the laughable media image of such things, though that certainly does occur among those who hire that kind of sexworker, then go back to their sanctimonious lives.

In fact, I think there's something deeply fetishistic about religious and political conservatives who always seem to love to rail on about some kind of wild impression my very-'vanilla' committed lesbian relationship a) involves men having anal sex and b) would somehow magically-result in 'everyone' marrying barn animals if we were treated fairly under civil contract law.

Then these guys get caught looking for 'dirty, dirty, bad' gay sex in the 'dirtiest' place their potty-training can imagine.

I think *that's* a fetish we probably oughtn't to be indulging.

First, to Starhawk: your first paragraph was pure poetry. Sex has to be at least spiritual, and, at best, transcendental.

Next, to the Clinton bashers: did Slick Willie's crotch crisis impair his ability to be President? Did the bj, between consenting adults, get hammered by the public, that group whom the President serves? Did they really disapprove? Oddly, his national approval rating during the impeachment process was above 60%. Contrast that with our current President, locked in the 30's percentages, and endlessly pacing the oval office wishing for another aircraft carrier to strut around on, while he sends more Americans to die in a useless war.

Am I angry? You bet. Deal with it.

Arminius

this morning my partner, to whom I am both married and handfasted, asked me if I would be upset if he had a short affair with someone he had been chatting with online who is visiting our area on business. actually my partner initially proposed that we all participate in the affair, but I was not interested. then he asked if it was alright for him to pursue the affair. I told him I would not be upset at all, as long as he followed our previously established rules related to extramarital sex.

is this adultery? not in my mind. is it cheating? absolutely not. it is a non-traditional arrangement between my partner and I that happens to work for us at this point in our relationship. while I do not believe in the concept of 'sin', wrongful sexual behavior occurs when there is dishonesty or harm.

but the question posed, as I understand it, is focused on why we as a culture are so obsessed with sexual affairs when they come to light. and American culture does seem to me to be very far away from many cultures in regard to its attitude towards this type of 'scandal'.

I am not suggesting that other cultures approach sexual inpropriety with disinterest. I would guess that people universally take interest when they learn that a friend or relation has had an affair, or has been the victim of infidelity by a partner. it is natural to care about the people close to us, people with whom we have a relationship. but the American public's rabid interest into the sexual lives of people that they do not know seems fairly unique.

there are situations where some interest is valid. politicians are elected in order to do the public's business. I want to know when they have violated my trust or misused their position or public money. famous atheletes who harass or rape female fans, business associates or acquaintences have committed crimes using the thinking error that their status somehow places them above the law. that is hurtful. however, in neither situation do I need or want to know the details that seem very easy to access.

every time I go shopping I am faced with magazines reporting the 'true' details of Brad and Angolina's (or any other couple in the spotlight) sexual liazons, with and without each other. more often than not I am offered contradictory details side by side on the magazine rack. why do we need to know this information when none of it is our buisness? the people being written about have no duty to act on the public behalf, as politicians do. they simply live more visable lives than the rest of us.

America was founded on a puritanical religious and social philosophy by people who were proud of their ability to control, watch and judge other members of their communities. regardless of current ideologies or the reality of faith in America today, these early influences are still very much affecting our culture. we can be an amazingly nosey people.

my religious beliefs teach me to recognize and respect boundaries. when I see my local news covering a story that has no valid public interest, when I hear associates discussing the private lives of people they do not know, I speak up voicing my opinion. then I follow up with action. I leave the situation to reinforce the point that I have no interest in participating in voyeurism of this sort.

Intolerant said: >>"Who cares what Pagans think? The question was about what we (all) should be doing, not what Pagans do."

Who cares what pagans think? Well, panelists responding is kinda the point of this entire website, so I don't think it's rude or irrelevant for Starhawk to provide an answer. I just wish that, since we have so many branches of Christianity represented, we could have a few more pagan faiths here too - the differences in approach are often much larger than between Christian sects.

As to your statement that "the question is about what we should all be doing", an important issue from a pagan perspective is to point out that we don't accept the use of the word "Sin" to accurately describe the situation. We kinda reject the assumption the question is based on to begin with. So we'd have a very different view as to what people should do.

In addition, you'll notice that the pagans on here rarely tell everyone else how to behave - that's not the way we work. We don't mind if everyone isn't pagan. We don't think we have a right to tell others what they "should be doing". Pagans generally just give their views (which are likely to be pretty different from the mainstream) and hope we inspire someone. (Although you'll see that actually, those views aren't usually very different at all, and generally boil down to "be nice to each other and don't be an ass". We're human and moral.)

This is a multi-faith forum for different faiths to talk about their opinions on the proposed questions - how on earth do you justify asking "Who cares what pagans think?"

Athena,

"Kind of makes Bill Clinton's extracurricular activities seem quaint, doesn't it?"

No, not really. Monica was a young intern who was smitten by a charismatic, powerful man twice her age. As a government employee I can tell you that ethical rules prohibit a supervisor to have sex with a subordinate. I believe that to be true in private industry as well. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The argument is that such behavior will result in potentially restricted actions such as favoritism, which is unlawful, at least on paper, in government. That said, as President, he was also the Commander-in Chief. Our military has strict moral codes and as the supreme leader he was bound to uphold and abide by those codes.

Politicians who think they are above the rules and laws they create for the populace are despicable. And it doesn't matter to which party they belong.

Clinton's dalliance did NOT break any laws. Ms. Lewinsky was a consenting adult. All of his other women were consenting adults. It was the resulting quid-pro-quo that was the legal problem. He used his influence to get her a job.

However, let's look at some other, more recent examples. Senator David Vitter hired prostitutes. That is definitely violating a law. Senator Larry Craig was arrested and pleaded guilty for soliciting sex in a public place. Rudy Giuliani, who is running for President, had an affair with a woman while married to his second wife, and made the taxpayers of NYC foot the bill for his security detail. Kind of makes Bill Clinton's extracurricular activities seem quaint, doesn't it?

Well, I for one, care what pagans think because I sure as hell don't trust what the Roman Catholic church, as a beaurocratic institution, tells me.

"I am the Way" has been a poor translation for thousands of years. Should have been, "My way", or "the way I follow". When read in that manner, the way to heaven, salvation, the good after-life, etc. becomes a whole lot more inclusive and "catholic" (i.e. universal) than the other.

Sex serves two main functions in our society: procreation primarily, and social bonding secondarily. Even the entertainment and recreation values rolls into the social function.

Bill Clinton's 'daliance' with Monica Lewinski was in violation of his publicly professed moral code, an ethical violation of his professional position's privileges, and in many states a unlawful act. What his personal moral code is is supported by his actions, not his words.

Seems to me that more damage is caused by rules against this conduct and the attempts to hide it than there would be if it were permissible. In my not so humble opinion, there should be more opportunity to procreate for the successful members of our species. As long as it's safe for the lower ranked person to say "no", and no show of favoritism in professional treatment if the answer is "yes", then the ethical problem pretty much disappears. But I'd throw a caveat that any children of any such relationship becomes the responsibility of both parties. Who cares if B.C. has dozens of 'bastard' children all over the place as long as he helps provide a loving and nurturing environment for them to grow up in? If he can't do the quality time, he doesn't get to have the fun time.

Who cares what Pagans think? The question was about what we (all) should be doing, not what Pagans do.

I'm writing from the Netherlands, which allows a few other types of state-approved marriages and partnerships. First of all, "marriage" still means saying 'I do' in front of a judge, and potentially in front of your (Abrahamic) religious leader; "registered partnership" conveys all the same rights, and is the form of official partnership that same-sex partners enjoy (and there have been a small number of poly marriages that have been effected this way); LAT - 'living apart together' - is for those who are committed, but must or prefer to live apart. 'Samen Wonen' is a living-together commitment that requires both partners write a will to ensure approved dispersal of shared assets.

The purpose of all these arrangements has nothing to do with emotional commitment or moral purity, but to pragmatically allow the Dutch government to understand quite clearly the financial ramifications of each partnership.

I point this out only because, as an American, I was struck by the practical nature of the Dutch in adopting official structures for a slightly more diverse set of 'marriages' than the US can imagine.

That was a digression, for the purposes of perspective. However, the phrase that struck me most deeply from this essay was that 'the charisma of power warps judgement.' In a world in which men tacitly and often explicitly hold more power than women, the ramifications for hetero women - even in the 'developed' world - can be a deep self-doubt and a lack of clarity around the 'why the heck did I sleep with that guy' issue. It's unconscious. He has more power thus he has charisma thus...

This power = charisma issue also underlies many sexual fetishes, I think: a way to enjoy sexual connection without any need for emotional connection.

Have I upset anyone in the bdsm community?

And they wonder why they can't control themselves, never mind each other and everyone else. :)

"I think that works both ways, really. If you say 'unmarried sex is the same 'sin' as cheating on a closed marriage,' ...then people tend to think cheating on an oath is the same as regular old unmarried sex.

I think there *is* a big difference, one that gets lost if you mediate it all through that 'sex without marriage is sin' filter."

You've pegged it. Growing up, that was pretty much the message that we got - ALL sexual activity outside the bonds of a legal marriage performed in a church was fornication. It didn't matter if it was two single people, or if one or both were married to someone else, or even if they cared about each other. The sex drive was a tool of Satan to tempt you into depravity, and any sexual pleasure - even masturbation - was equally sinful. Sex wasn't supposed to be for pleasure, it was supposed to be for making babies. Masturbating was portrayed as every bit as evil as seducing someone else's spouse. As a teenager with a healthy sex drive and no boyfriend, I had a few issues with this point of view.

I think a part of where the Pagan view diverges on stuff like this, is that Pagans don't have the theology that says,'Sex is an inherently sinful and selfish thing that marriage gives you permission to do.'

To us, a marriage is generally about an *oath,* (and usually those *oaths* are tailored to the situation, not imposed by convention or dogma,) and this changes the view on extramarital affairs: ie, they aren't presumed to be bad because they're some kind of 'sin,' (ie, sex outside Christian permission) ...for us it's not the 'sex the authorities don't like' factor, it's about the relationship between people, and the harm that comes of breaking an oath of trust.

But in the public arena, we run across this problem again: people mixing up civil marriage with Christian religious marriage. As a civil contract, people take 'forever' oaths to get the legal rights, even if they have pre-nups and lawyers on hand, or, generally, the understanding that this is a binding contract, but one that can be dissolved.

I think it's a little murky, though, and maybe the answer is actually empowering people to enter into the contracts and oaths that actually *suit* them, rather than trying to keep the definition narrow and lamenting the 'decay of the institution' when that doesn't work so well for everyone.

In the public arena, I tend to see these scandals, (well, I tend not to, unless it's yet another instance of *hypocrisy* to lament,) ..it's not, 'Ooo, sexual sin,' it's like, 'Did that aggrieve your spouse? Lame.'

We see a lot of commentators taking the occasion to these mentioned *violations of trust* to go after anyone who has sex outside their idea of 'marriage,' ...equating sex by unmarried people with cheating...

I think that works both ways, really. If you say 'unmarried sex is the same 'sin' as cheating on a closed marriage,' ...then people tend to think cheating on an oath is the same as regular old unmarried sex.

I think there *is* a big difference, one that gets lost if you mediate it all through that 'sex without marriage is sin' filter.

Everyone views sex and relationships differently. I can really appreciate the Pagan view of this situation of "Is is harmful," or Steve B.'s "Who will I be harming." That is a much more applicable way to view any sex outside of a marriage.

Pagans vary greatly, and Starhawk's path can often be more radical than mine, but I thought that post was awesome.

Other panelists have started "well, since sex outside marriage always hurts someone, it's always wrong..." Rubbish. A loveless marriage, an arranged marriage to someone who hates you but you can't leave, falling in love with someone else when there are no consequences to anyone except the person you don't love anymore... there are plenty of cases when sex can be liberating, life-affirming and positive. "Marriage" tells you nothing about the state of the relationship or the people who will be hurt by an affair (or not).

The big block we need to overcome in talking about it religiously is the idea that the word "Sex" is inherently evil, dirty or bad. Pagans generally don't think so. I imagine there are several religions on here that don't believe in the concept of 'Sin', but apparently they still need to comment on the status of extra-marital sex.

As usual, pagans look at the individual cases and their own responsibility. Who will I be harming? What will be the end result, because it will be my fault? There are plenty of situations when marriages are rotten and monogamy is soul-destroying (for men and women): let's not make sweeping judgements to apply in every case based on rules in a book.