Torture Is Never Justified

om2c4U U cool ))

om2c4U U cool ))

om2c4U U cool ))

Torture is absolutely and unequivocally wrong, always and for any reason.

I say the same thing about cannibalism, which was popular all over the world for a long time as well.

It's easy to agree with me about cannibalism because the majority agrees. The odd few who practice it now are considered criminals in every nation. This particular barbarism has been legislated almost out of existence.

A civil society is based on laws respecting human rights, which are natural (or God-given) and therefore inherent and inalienable. People who harm others are criminals. They must be prevented from continuing to harm, so they lose precious freedom. But as a civilized society, we do not condone cruel and unusual punishment for even the worst criminals.

Torture is obviously cruel. It's also unusual, because before Bush & Co took over, very few Americans would have expressed support for torture. You could make a case for killing and eating someone to save other lives, as some do for torture, but you wouldn't. It's just no longer an accepted practice. Torture was not accepted in our society either, until Bush & Co. said it was.

And here is the crux of the disagreement between matriots and patriots on issues like war and torture:

Christianity requires obedience to a father figure, as well as faith in what he tells you to believe and do. That's why Bush & Co targets this demographic, trained from birth to run with the flock, unaware that their shepherd may lead them to pasture or to slaughter as he sees fit. The shepherd is the authority, the big man, the father figure, the Holy Father, Pope. President.

The father of the "Abrahamic religions" - Christianity, Islam, Judaism - thought God wanted him to kill his son Isaac to prove his faith. Abraham said God told him to do it, but he also said at different times that his wife Sarah was his sister. This led to her being taken as wife by two kings, until plagues and bad dreams prompted them to send her back.

Sarah (Hebrew Sarai, translated variously as woman of high rank, princess, goddess, prophet, high holy one, free woman) had one son - Isaac - whose name means laughter. She didn't believe God's messengers, disguised as three guys, when they told her she would finally get that baby she always wanted. She would be 90 years old, so she laughed when she heard it. Abraham would be 100 and had waited all his life for God to fulfill a promise that he would be the father of nations.

Some father. Isaac went with Abraham, asking, where is the lamb we'll be sacrificing? Abraham said the Lord would provide, built the altar, laid the wood, then bound up his son and laid him out as a human sacrifice. Isaac lay still, ever obedient to his old man's authority - or maybe he was paralyzed by shock and fear when he realized Abraham's big lie and murderous intent. Abraham was poised to bring down his knife when an angel called out to stop. Prevented from killing his son, Abraham found a ram nearby and slaughtered it instead. Mission accomplished.

Today many of Abraham's troublesome descendents are willing to sacrifice their children to the army, and their children are willing to go. Originally they all wanted to kill bin Laden, a Saudi, but apparently Iraqis will do.

Different interpretations of this story say that Abraham did kill Isaac, who later rose from the dead, but not before his mother Sarah had died from grief.

People have interpreted these fables lots of different ways, but essentially, Abraham heard voices that told him to kill. Even in the days of Genesis, killing a beloved son was not normal behavior, and today it would rightly put the perpetrator in jail. Abraham had something to prove and nothing else mattered - not Isaac and his life, not Sarah and the loss of her only son, not the multitudes who would never be born of Isaac's seed.

Somehow these patriots have missed the whole point of the story: Abraham was wrong. God did not give life to the child so the old man could take it - whatever claim the man made to justify his actions, whatever voices he thought he heard, whatever his personal aspirations to get into heaven.

Somehow these patriots have also missed the point of the American Constitution, the Bill of Rights, civil rights and other laws that are the foundation of a civilized and enlightened society.

There is no reasoning with a guy like Abraham, or a patriot who thinks torture is OK, or a war profiteer making money by the truckload, or a parent who is proud to send their child to kill or be killed. They follow the leader, ignore the facts, fear the worst, disrespect the lives of others, and propogate the delusion that this is a defensive war.

Those of us who know that the great white father in Washington is dishonorable will continue to work for peace. We'll continue to speak out against torture for any reason, and we will continue to legislate out of existence the death cults that glorify war, jihad, suicide bombs, torture, and human sacrifice (Isaac and Jesus Christ).

i agree with paganplace- talk is cheap

http://ga3.org/tjp/home.html

Mad: well quoted!

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
-Upton Sinclair

Nocked that one out of the park, no?

All this said, I have to wonder *where's the outrage.*

Some will speak sanctimoniously about the matter, but still remain silent when the religious conservatives in government tell them to look the other way and get fussed about some minority wanting to get married, or have equal representation in their own government, or get married, while important facets of our American law, like habeas corpus, like posse comitatus, even the judicial system itself and the checks and balances and separation of powers that help *prevent* this kind of brutality, ...are done away with or compromised, be it quietly or brazenly.

We seem to spend a lot of time on this forum being told by fundamentalist Christians and others that we aren't 'morally qualified' to speak for our own rights and those of others, but I think there's few better. Especially those that have been on the receiving end of the xenophobia and threats and abuses and even hysteria that the people who want to support and cover up torture by our own government also seem to want to promote.

We've heard people accuse us of "being with the terrorists" for not calling *all* Muslims 'terrorists,' and it doesn't take a genius to see where *that* could go.

We've heard people claim we 'have no morals' because we don't think it's good or right to hurt gay people over Christians' religious beliefs, heard people say our soldiers don't deserve chaplains, our dead don't deserve headstones, ...even heard people claim it's some kind of child abuse for their kids to read anything that *doesn't* condemn us as 'evil...'

Even claim we don't know 'forgiveness' while supporting war and torture and injustice... claiming we're 'unamerican,' while using their belief in a 'Christian Nation' to sell out these most basic and essential of our American rights and values and principles.

I, for one, know just how fragile and precious these rights can be... And how Christian beliefs are no real protection against the abuse of them.

Good people doing nothing is the real threat.

america still has the death penalty-

if its willing to kill its own citizens, it's not a great stretch to torturing 'others'

ive watched the twisting that occurs when people enconuter these unpleasant, but wholly latent(in all of us) human tendecies to subjugate our fellow humans

as a lifelong pacifist, i never found a satisfactory answer as to what action to take if an aggressor is, for instance, killing a baby.

i just sat and fed my 3 week old abandoned kitten with a bottle- its a very gentle and peaceful occupation-
but i sit in safety because someone somewhere is protecting me-
just saying soemthing is wrong- isnt the same as a developed construction of how to act rightly

it is like telling a child to 'be good'.
it is not enough
you have to instruct the child as to what goodness actually is- or it is a pointless command which only makes the person telling them that feel as if theyve done something, when theyve done nothing but add confusion

so, now we know what NOT to do, logically- there should be a discussion on what TO DO-

hers is a short list (by no means comprehensive or representative of the entire compendium)
of treatment of combatans in isalmic jurisprudence

naturally, and withou exception, all non-combatants are not to be touched or aggressed upon at all.

this is real islam, not foxnews propoganda
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Rights Of Combatants

Now let us see what rights Islam has conferred on the combatants.

1. Torture by fire

In the Hadith there is a saying of the Prophet that: "Punishment by fire does not behoove anyone except the Master of the Fire" (AbuDawood). The injunction deduced from this saying is that the adversary should not be burnt alive.

2. Protection of the wounded

"Do not attack a wounded person" said the Prophet. This means that wounded soldiers who are not fit to fight, nor actually fighting, should not be attacked.

3. Prisoners of war should not be slain

"No prisoner should be put to the sword" ¾ a very clear and unequivocal instruction given by the Prophet.

4. No-one should be tied to be killed

"The Prophet has prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity."

5. No looting and destruction in the enemy's country

Muslims have been instructed by the Prophet not to pillage or plunder or destroy residential areas, nor harm the property of anyone not fighting. It has been narrated in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). His injunction is: "The loot is no more lawful than the carrion" (AbuDawood). AbuBakr Siddeeq used to tell soldiers on their way to war: "Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle."

Booty of war from the battleground is altogether different. It consists of the wealth, provisions and equipment captured from the camps and military headquarters of the combatant armies and may legitimately be appropriated.

6. Sanctity of property

Muslims have been prohibited from taking anything from the general public of a conquered country without paying for it. If the Muslim army occupies an area of the enemy country, it does not have the right to use the things belonging to the people without their consent. If the army needs anything, it should purchase it from the local population or should obtain permission from the owners. AbuBakr Siddeeq used to tell Muslim armies being dispatched to the battle-from that they should not even use the milk of the cattle without the permission of the owners.

7. Sanctity of a dead body

Islam has categorically prohibited its followers from mutilating the corpses of their enemies, as was practised in Arabia before the advent of Islam. It is said in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited us from mutilating the corpses of the enemies" (Bukhari, AbuDawood). The occasion on which this order was given is highly instructive. In the battle of Uhud the disbelievers mutilated the bodies of the Muslims who had fallen on the battlefield by cutting off their ears and noses and threading them together to put round their necks as trophies of war. The stomach of Hamza, the uncle of the Prophet, was ripped open by the Quraysh and his liver was taken out and chewed by Hinda, the wife of AbuSufyan, the leader of the Makkan army. The Muslims were naturally enraged by this horrible sight. But the Prophet asked his followers not to mete out similar treatment to the dead bodies of the enemies.

This great example of forbearance and restraint should be sufficient to convince any reasonable man that Islam really is the religion sent down by the Creator of the universe; if Islam allowed human emotions free rein, this horrible sight on the battlefield of Uhud would have provoked the Prophet to order his followers to mutilate the bodies of their enemy in the same manner.

8. Return of corpses of the enemy

In the battle of Ahzab a renowned enemy warrior was killed and his body fell into the trench which the Muslims had dug for the defence of Madina. The unbelievers presented ten thousand Dinars to the Prophet and requested that the dead body of their fallen warrior be handed over to them. The Prophet replied: "I do not sell dead bodies. You can take away the corpse of your fallen comrade."

9. Prohibition of breach of treaties

Islam has strictly prohibited treachery. One of the instructions that the Prophet used to give to Muslim warrior when sending them to the battlefront was: "Do not be guilty of breach of faith. "This order has been repeated in the Holy Qur’an and the Hadith again and again. there is a famous incident in the peace treaty of Hudaybiya when, after the settlement of the terms of the treaty, AbuJandal, the son of the emissary of the unbelievers who had negotiated the treaty with the Muslims, came bound and blood-stained to the Muslim camp crying for help. The Prophet told him: "Since the terms of the treaty have been settled, we are not in a position to help you. You should go back with your father. God will provide you with some other opportunity to escape this persecution."

The entire Muslim army was deeply touched and grieved at the plight of AbuJandal and many of them were moved to tears. But when the Prophet declared "we cannot break the agreement," not a single person came forward to help the unfortunate prisoner; so the unbelievers forcibly dragged him back to Makkah. This is an unparalleled example of the observance of the terms of agreement by Muslims; Islamic history can show many similar examples.

10. Rules about declaration of war

It has been laid down in the Holy Qur’an: "If you apprehend breach of treaty from a people, then openly throw the treaty at their faces" (8:58). In this verse, Muslims have been prohibited from opening hostilities against their enemies without properly declaring war against them, unless, of course, the adversary has already started the aggression. Present-day 'international law' has also laid down that hostilities should not be started without declaration of war, but since this is a man-made rule, it is often disregarded. Muslim laws, on the other hand, have been framed by Allah and may not be disregarded.

this doesnt address the treatment of prisoners of war-

there is no torture allowed in islam
period.
period.
unequivocally

even issues such as the environment and animals come under scrutiny

even a tree can be destroyed in war
peace

Just a note, everyone - Witch, Wicca or Wicce, and Pagan should be capitalized, thanks, as should Goddess.

Starhawk is correct - there is never an excuse for torture. There is no Jack Bauer who is going to save the world by roughing up a suspect. Torture is !00% ineffective. It doesn't work. Period. The ony thing is accomplishes is in destroying our humanity. The harm it does both to the torturer and the tortured are too costly to our society. We need leaders who understand that. We need to oppose it unequivocally.

If we can't stand against torture in all forms with a definitive and resolute refusal to tolerate it, we simply are not civilized. We have to have the strength to resist it now matter how great our fear might be. When we are afraid our reptilian brain causes us to react rather than think. We need to be brave and use our mammalian empathy and our human mind to do what we know is right.

Terra.

I get your point and agree with it to some extent. While I don’t agree with going to war there is no doubt that those serving in the armed forces are making a special sacrifice for the country. It goes back to the old saying. If there were no more soldiers how could a country go to war? If enough people said no, even a government mandated draft would fail. You couldn’t put everyone in jail.

I guess my main point is giving your life for a cause while not hurting others is different than giving (or potentially) giving life or limb for a cause and killing people. I find the latter counter productive in the long run. Killing and hate only creates more killing and hate. The only way to overcome war is through peace and compassion.

Of course the argument will always be what if we took that approach with Nazi Germany? Would they not have over run the whole world and indeed end up with their version of the superior race?

Can we ever say there is no case for war… ever! I don’t know that I currently posses the level of wisdom need to answer that question.

The only real solution I can see is heading off the issues that lead to the rise of Nazi Germany or other such regimes. Perhaps the communication tools (internet) we have today compared to back then and the UN, as dysfunctional as it is can help.

Knowledge and choice is what is needed. If we provide violence or force as the only choice then what choice do we give our enemies?

Rob.

Rob,

I agree.. and your post made me think of something that's been lurking in the back of my brain for awhile.. Why is it that a lot people in this country seem to hold up those who died in such a battle far higher than those who live and return home? In everything I've learned about war, most people don't go there expecting to die. Don't all people deserve to be honored?

Torture or killing is an extremely slippery slope. What is the stopping point? Torturing one man to save thousands? Killing one man to save thousands? Killing 10 to save 10,000?

Nuking 200,000 to save a million?

Seeing that we a re a Christina nation by demographics I would like to sight the idea of dying for our ideas.

Today when we send our soldiers any where to fight for what we stand for we consider that willing to die for a cause. What we have failed to realize is this is not quite true. In the interim I am killing others and if I am good enough and lucky enough I have not died for my cause but killed others to fight for my cause. This is actually called killing for a cause.

I am not sure when it became popular to die for your cause but only if you failed to kill those you were fighting. The early Christians died for their cause by not denying their belief. They allowed others to kill them if the need be, but they would not raise up a finger to the aggressor. That is dying for a cause.

You define yourself by your actions.

If you want a world where the best killer succeeds, then kill. If you want a world where money rules, then support economics over values.

Defeating ‘evil’ and hate can only be resolved by love, not by force. To get rid of the opposite of what you want, you need to create more of what you want. This plays out in physics and in life. Simple physics shows you do not get rid of matter with more matter. You need anti-matter.

Through out history life has shown that force, killing and more hate does not get rid of hate, it simply creates more hate, more fighting and more killing.

We create our own reality by our actions. If you want peace, be peaceful. If you want compassion, be compassionate.

To quote Gandhi “There is no way to peace, peace is the way”.

Vie,
I agree...how can people who say they honor a god of peace and that tout their morals as better then others...and those who say they honor the individual believe that torture is ok in anyway?

How can Americans, who are inheritors of the fight for justice and human rights, even contemplate torture? How can our honor allow us to go against our own signatures on the Convention Against Torture and the Geneva Convention. That not just our President and Vice President can be held for Crimes against humanity...but so can our nation. Germany was seen by other nations to have acquiesced to what it's leaders did. To many people Germany was a nation that cheered at the death camps and the ovens. Why? They had a democratic election...those leaders were elected. As was ours.

Are we going to do away with 200+ years of history, of our people fighting and dying for what we, as a nation were built on?

People that say it does not matter who the president, legislature and judges are, are crazy. It matters...there is a difference in "values."

Who are we?

terra

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

Well, I think that's where we are...

I've discussed some concern the idea of 'loving your neighbor as yourself' when our society teaches us anything *but* to love ourselves... It's profoundly distressing to on the one hand have people claiming *my* people can't possibly have any morals, thus deserve any repression meted out... by people who claim their *God* is supposed to torture us.

Notice how these views tend to coincide?

This is one thing where personally- 'loving our neighbor' doesn't work so well if our own government a) tries to justify torture, while b) keeping it a secret, and c) redefining it so what they won't say they're doing is supposed to be OK.

This is dehumanization of others of the worst order, and it runs to the quick of so many societal problems.

It's not as though we aren't all Americans who'd defend each other. Well, I'd hope. There's no valor or glory or even safety in torturing people... Only a loss of soul which can lead to people turning a blind eye to everything from private armies with religious Fundamentalist ties to the daily abuses of our society that get lost in the frenzy to scorn those who are different or unacceptable to those in power hove done their best to *numb* our sense of morality while directing the people's attention and fear to those who really are harming no one.

Or even to scare people into dealing with 'enemies' in ways that don't *work,* but create the degradations that come with their endless wars.

Paganplace,

You said:
"I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort."

Just. Put it down. I would sooner fight in your stead than see this twisting of what you say you believe, Arminius.

Paganplace, please explain how I have twisted my beliefs.

The claymore is a symbol - the symbol of freedom in the hands of William Wallace. But if you were my neighbor, and were threatened, I would be there to help. And I would be unarmed. Yet I am no pacifist - I will defend me and mine, if absolutely necessary.

Yes, a sword can cause horrible wounds. So can bullets. Worse ones, really.

Plan B? Love your neighbor as yourself.

Respectfully,

Arminius

>>"If America falls, it will *not* be cause someone didn't smack a detainee hard enough."

Tom Cruise in the trailer of "Lions for Lambs": "Do you want to win the War on Terror, Yes or No?"

Problem is, what do we mean by "win"? How to you stop 'terror', or terrorism, which can never have an endpoint and is fuelled by violence? The suggested option is to use torture, pre-emptive war, bugging US citizens etc.

If we bring terror attacks down to a minimal level by doing this, but in the process turn into a country of Muslim-hating, paranoid war-mongering torturers, that *doesn't count as a win*. (I include the US and UK here).

If we turn into the monsters our enemies say we are, THEY win. And the violence never ends.

And yes, the "for us or against us" good/evil worldview from dry-alcoholic born-again Bush is *exactly* responsible for getting us here. It has nothing to do with Jesus, or real Christians, or compassion.

I'm just picturing someone trying to sell "Blessed are the poor and the peacemakers" to Dick Cheney, or any of the current Administration.

In the meantime: Schmooze, P/A, etc? Neopagans aren't pro-torture, no matter what threat or patriotism you try to justify it with. Give it up. The official verdicts from everyone who would know (CIA, MI6, official bodies) is that torture is unreliable and does more harm to the struggle than help it. Even if I didn't reject it on its own principles, it's not even practical for saving lives. Find another way.

Frankly, they have lumber and ocular membrane issues.

Gets to a certain measure of, lead, follow, or get out of the way.

We don't have time for this right now.

You go girl! I would chime in with more, but you seem to be covering all the bases. All I can say is that if these people don't realize that they are at total odds with everything Jesus said, they might as will poke their own eyes out with a stick.

This basically means, will everyone who believes *again* that theirs is the last generation on Earth before the Apocalypse, please step to the right, if you haven't already vociferously done so.

If you think this solely because the Mayan calendar actually *is* due to run out this time and can cool your jets for five years, particularly without thinking that it's very important to torture people before the imminent certain global doom that some may mistake for their personal mortality, please raise your hands and step out if you don't have a notion to go hurting someone in order to try and save your own metaphysical keister.

Good.

To the rest of us, I say.

The situation's a little bit grim. Well, very grim.

Actually, completely insane.

Frankly, everyone's bugging. In unproductive ways.

I, personally, for mystical reasons I don't care to explain or defend, assert that it'd be a pretty good idea if certain lines were not crossed, whatever the outcome.

One of those lines would be, 'Don't torture people.'

It may be an irony for me to say, since Christians are always insisting, 'No amount of suffering is too much... for you to go through for your marriage not happening to be straight and Christian,' in case it made me somehow feel my marriage wasn't 'sanctified' enough, but hey.

Here's the 4-1-1.

If America falls, it will *not* be cause someone didn't smack a detainee hard enough.

It'll be cause someone thought that was real.

If America lives, it'll be cause *we* believe in Liberty. Cause *we* care about Her more than anything like how comfy we are, or how secure we feel slapping detainees around.

People that tell us we can compromise these ideals in the name of our flag, don't lead us to any good end.

But, we can choose. Not me, not Terra, not Starhawk, certainly not George W. Bush or Dick Cheney or Bill O'Reilly.. Us.

We.

America.

We can choose.

So happens that 'will we OK torture' is one of those lines that people have a real hard time coming back from. Know why? Cause it's *too shameful to ever admit you did without some grand justification.*

Torture.

If you want to do this....

Look at it.

Look.

This is not us.

And if torture *is* us, *we don't deserve to win.* Whatever people think we *would* win.

Look at it.

Just.

Look.

At.

It.

If you don't believe we torture, then demand to look at our 'not-torture.'

Do you know? I don't.

People saying it's treasonous to *want* to know, though, well, hey.

You don't need a big IQ to see where *that* goes.

Christians.

Who say we got 'no morals.'

You wouldn't last a *day* in our morals, the most of you.

I suppose, Terra, that we are quite used to dealing with injury, and when insult is added, it may prove annoying, when hings are taken political. I, for one, am tired of receiving both.

People claiming 'moral superiority' is one thing, but to me, if this means both letting sick children duffer for circumstances of birth, as well as feeling it's OK to torture people... all while calling ourselves 'immoral' (apparently for lack of anything better to do) ....

Well, no.

I say, if people want to use oblique reasoning to try and define *us* as the bad guys while defending torture, well...

Just maybe taking on the name 'Witch' has a little something to it.

They want their 'lawyers, guns, and money,' but... We just live, Terra.

Not like I never had a daughter, ...had that daughter held for ransom by people who had...certain ideas..... but... Hey, we're the Rebel Alliance. The more they try to tighten their grasp, the more worlds will slip through their fingers.

That's people.

Talk around here, and the Christians will try and say they're the sole repositories of a virtue they somehow never manage to express.

We yet live.
Nothing's forgotten.

Right?

I may not be the exemplary priestess, but, if Themselves could find me where I was, we have no need for fear.

These people are afraid.

Don't know what it'll come to, but we gotta be the big kids. The brats are bugging. Ready or not, here we are.

Ain't that just like the Lady, though.

Most of what these 'holy rollers' call uncontestable, well... It's horrid. Isn't it?

May not be our battle to win, this one. Gods know you can't tell these people anything.

Ready or not, Lady, it's on us to be ready with what comes next. They wanna drive this puppy into the ground we pick up the pieces. This is the story. We even shut up, if absolutely necessary, not that this is a time for shutting up. :)

And, hey, you might get to meet me, soon. But that's another story. :)

What is worse then the outright violence is the subtle bone pricking of hate. Judges that favor the Christian against the Pagan in child visitation. The Virginia judge making the Wiccan Dad give up practicing his faith when the child was there...not have his books, or Wiccan friends, nor wear his Wiccan religious symbol, nor take part in any observance of Wiccan holidays.

A young Wiccan Mom gets bomb threats to blow up her business and home , so leaves the town with her honor student son.

A Wiccan Mom goes to the school board to try to get teaching aids for her autistic son. They discover she is Wiccan and her son is taken from her, placed in an institution and while she is fighting to get him back, he dies.

It goes on and on. People distrust us and think the worse,many do not want to know us..it is so much fun to think the worse. But Goddess bless..there are those like some here On Faith that are different, and I appreciate the leap opf faith it took for them to take us at our words...literaly.

There will always be dimbulbs...and for us it is often like dipping the water out of the swamp with a teaspoon...But I think each spoon is closer to draining the swamp.

In your face violence is easier to take then the ugly mind set of hate. I have my Athame...yes it is the symbol meaning things can cut both ways...but also a symbol of balance and energy...that is never to cut life.

terra

Heh. Guess Plan B is up to you, ennit? :)

"I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort."

Just. Put it down. I would sooner fight in your stead than see this twisting of what you say you believe, Arminius.

'Get behind me, Satan, this sucka's mine.'

Seriously.

I never said you weren't kin.

I may be sick at the heart at all the violence of this world. But I will count coup with my digging stick, rather than see you defend violence itself, never mind swing steel when you have no heart for or knowing of it.

If that isn't enough, no violence will help your faith.

You speak of a claidh mor, yet you say you are more 'forgiving.'

This isn't about that.

This is about madness.

It's not the first madness we've been party to, and it won't be the last, until people can accept the situation and be human.

A claymore will cut a human like a side of beef. It's not pretty, it's not romantic, and it doesn't prove a Gosforsaken thing.

Choose.

a) Leave my people alone. b)

Paganplace,

Jesus is not 'proof against violence'. He did not want violence. He died a horrible death to prove that. He truly is the Prince of Peace. What a damn tragedy that so many 'Christians' cannot see that. It makes me weep.

I do not want violence. I will never provoke it. But if threatened, or if my neighbor (including you) is threatened, then my claymore is at hand. But talk first. Fighting is the absolute last resort.

True Christians know that violence is bad. I am glad to be reassured that Pagans do too, but I never doubted it.

All people deserve protection, and our help. Religion must be accepting, not exclusive. If it is exclusive, then it is a dictatorship.

Aaarrrgh.

Now to the REALLY important stuff! I did figure out you were from Beantown. Now, I am a National League freak, and hold, as a 'religious' principle, that your AL rule of the DH is an abominable heresy. But I have a lasting love of the Red Sox Nation, for they brought down the Evil Empire in 2004! Lord, what grand baseball that was!

Religion in baseball? Sorta. Try this:
"When I go into a ballpark, I feel that I am surrounded by angels, and God's hand is on my shoulder."
- - - Hammerin' Hank Aaron

Arminius

I mean, hey, though, after all those years of the Bambino curse, then the Sox getting to be a regular team, it was *kinda sweet* to watch the 'Born Again' team the Rockies (whoever they were supposed to be in the first place) get *swept.*

Mind you, a number of people who happen to behave as though, while I'm a base idolater, that their belief their God favors certain sports teams must not be dissed... and who have just so happened to try and make their point by force, and, somehow, by doing things which are 'sin' if *not* done by force against 'heathens' ...Well.

So, the so-very-Christian media wouldn't let me watch the games after they got interesting, but.

I think it's OK to gloat about baseball for a metaphor.

War?

Prolly not.

Arminius: I'm from Boston. We just *did* baseball. :)

Twice, in case anyone was unsure on the point. :)

What I say is that our Jesus is not *proof against violence.* However much you might fear or extoll violence in his name.

I don't think that's what he ever wanted.

We're Pagans. We know violence is bad, cause, Goddess, Mother-of-all-that-grows, ...when we know, we know.

I will say that if you were my neighbor, I would not let anyone hurt you in the way that some Christians feel is necessary for some to hurt others.

I will also say that this is no great magic power or righteous Thing. Just is.

When people say that others don't deserve protection, or that it takes some special and weird dispensation from some God...

I say...

Liars.

I may not proclaim I 'love my neighbor' and then express that backwards through political power.

Some sincere Christians have called me a Good Samaritan, if not an angel.
I can live with that.

If you can.

Capiche?

Paganplace,

I'm having trouble with your words. What is apparent is that there is suffering there, you have seen things that I have not - and I do not want to know what they are. I sense a bitterness and a bit of defensive behavior. I also sense that this is not unearned. Feel free to stomp on me if I am wrong.

Hell, most people, not just us Christians, will tend to stand back and 'not get involved'. Which, of course, goes against most religious or moral codes. And the fat, happy populace is content to view war as something on the news that does not touch them... 'Switch channels to football, please...'

Aaarrgh.

At least switch to baseball.

Arminius

But, hey... if *you* had swords and woad, what would *you* do if you saw this coming? :)

That, I'll be a good sport about, if you will. :)

That's what I guess my Buddhist friends call a 'private peeve,' but I think it's very public.

Conservatives talk about *violence* like it's some abstraction.

It. Is. Not.

Gods help you if you know what I'm talking about, but, really.

I don't say this cause I've never seen such things.

I say it because I have.

Well, Arminius, it's one consistently-misunderstood thing about Wicca, that the athame is a 'sacrificial' knife, .. it's not. It's a reminder to us that Will not only *is* sharp, but also, as we say in old Boston: Cuts both ways.

Too many liberal and 'moderate' Christians think the talk of swords and wars is 'metaphor,' then get freaked out beyond reckoning when someone lives down to the talk.

Talk about 'war' like it's not *war,* but rather a metaphor for theology that somehow makes 'I don't want to pay my taxes, so I'll blame the poor when children suffer: Lobbyists can have M-60s, but sommon folk can't walk with a stick while we tell others they are evil embodied.'

And so many who apologize for sanctified abuse and greed act *utterly bewildered* when people get angry enough to 'fight back' in a way that makes sense to *their* myth.

My experience of sanctimonious Christians is that they gawk... at best, when their own society results in someone getting cut up, bleeding all over the neighborhood, ...then they look to Pagans to sort it out when the cops they didn't want to pay don't come.

Paganplace,

Oh, dear Lord. I have not spoken well. The whole thing about woad and swords is a gigantic joke between Wiccan (and I think Lep also) and myself.

We do not come to do violence. We come to sing and dance and drink and feast and celebrate God's glorious Creation. The swords are plastic, or, if metal, suitably dull and for show. The rest is real.

With apologies,

Arminius

See, Arminius, a lot of people are taught to live their lives running scared against shadows that may or may not appear.

One axiom I live by is, 'The bad guys always bring plenty of weapons.'

We do not need to compromise. Really.

Oh, Arminius: No. Just no.

It's not that there isn't a beauty in the dance of blades, but... what it does to a human body.

I've been scared in my life. Really scared. There have been times when my tribes and houses relied on steel, but..

No. We are not supposed to need these things in America.

Conservatives will insist on the right of people to have automatic weapons and say a girl can't carry a *stick.*

Christian police officers will detain and interrogate groups of Pagans cause one with an injured knee was walking with a *cane,*

We do often have swords.

But like any weapon, you need to see past the mystique and know what they *do.*

I'll stay to sticks, myself.

Eh, make your own sentence out of the first paragraph. Christian 'logic' gets that convoluted to me, really.

It's really all about... Someone is getting waterboarded, for dubious returns. In violation of the Geneva Convention and international law, and on the asssumption that if a snotnosed Connecticut WASP playing *cowboy* claims it's OK... that you will *shut up, blame the Pagans, and let it *happen* if you get to do mean things to queers and feel your abusive marriage has 'sanctity...'

While *gutting our American Constitutional system and telling you you *want* things you can't be bothered to examine, cause we're 'Code Orange Scared' all the time....

It's like people saying 'Liberals want to take your quad-linked gun emplacements away, cause, of course, your reality is that a bunch of queers who want health benefits are gonna come make a frontal assault on your suburban homestead...."

I mean... What?

Is it possible that you vote for 'Catastophu**s because that kind of thinking *doesn't actually work?"

Bush calls himseslf a righteous 'Compassionate conservative' while doing the opposite of both, and you get to bash liberals about him being a *liar.*

Rather than face up.

Cause that's *easy,* isn't it.

It's *easy* to say, 'Go ahead and torture people if you say that makes me safe from these things you aren't really protecting us from, anyway......'

Easy.

Not by any means effective, but, *easy.*

Again, I say, you want to torture people, *you look at it.*

You think it's all that important, you watch it, you follow it up, you go ahead and show *just how effective you think it is when you call people 'immoral non-Christian traitors* for saying 'This is *wrong.*

This. Is. Wrong.

Just like what happens to me or my sweetie if one of us dies from not having health care, or even cause someone really thought you could torture a terrorist cell and find out what another terrorist cell is doing.

Gods.

Wake *up.*

Hi, Wiccan, Well Met!

Go put on the woad again, we're gonna need it. My claymore is at hand. Along with Sting, my favorite one-handed sword - the balance on that blade is truly sweet. And don't forget the Guinness!

It's a damn shame that the 'Christians' that get all the promo are the ones mired in the worst passages of Leviticus instead of steeped in the Gospels. But they are the ones with the money, and can make the noise, and thus attract the media. There are a lot of us of the Christian faith that do not shriek and moan and point fingers, but try to live our religion by example.
The true message of Jesus is Love, not fear or hate.

Here is a prayer of St Francis, which sums up the true message of the Christ:

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

God bless,

Arminius

Also, just on the past two weeks' questions....

For people who seem to consider themselves so 'superior' for having such a deterministic view of why things people do that harm no one, ...you seem to have an awful tendency to try and prevaricate on how it's OK to a) hurt people you don't know in captvity, and b) let sick children suffer and die cause of some abstract idea of capitalism.

Still unclear on how your 'morals' don't impress us?

"but how come those Christians who would gladly consign me to Hell for not appreciating how Jesus suffered on the cross for me are so willing to make others suffer for them?"

Cause suffering is commerce and commodity to them, really.

*Obviously* they think that it's very important that people suffer and, through inexplicable and unnecessary suffering, confess the 'power' of the torture victim who somehow never managed to get the point of, 'You guys could actually not do this to each other, it does tend to hurt and give people generally-unproductive ideas about ending the world'

One thing I never got about Christians who wouldn't pay taxes, while claiming only Christians deserve a voice in government, ..is their dead-set on-annihilation thing. Seem to say, 'Make all the money you can or we'll make you suffer,' then say 'It's easier for a Camel to go through the eye of a needle, ...unless, apparently, you ensure no one's left behind to call you a bonehead.'

So it's gone a number of centuries.

World's always about to end, no one gives a care cause they think they're outtie as long as they deny life and sex and the future enough and call it 'faith.'

Somehow I'm just not figuring this is the Ultimate Answer, specially after a few lives like that.

Snoozie,
What I was meaning was not that the preachers did not know what they were doing...but doing just what we do...
And We know what to do with the power when it is raised, it's the feeling of raiseing power that I see those folks on TV getting high on. That is what they are focused on, not where they want the energy to go. With the amount of Christians there are, if you all knew how to focus your energies you could bring peace and heal the sick.

It has nothing to do with your God...but in the Will of the congregation.

Stop looking for thinks to whine about.
terra

"Smoozealert shows up"

Hey, it's possible, though uncertain, that someone finally picked a name. And a fitting one, as it seems to amply-demonstrate his priorities.

Merry Meet, Arminius!

Figures. Just when I wash off all the woad, Smoozealert shows up.

Guess we should be grateful, without him we would never know that there are more (supposed) Christians than there are Pagans. I never knew we were in a competition. You were just being sweet not telling us, right? :-)

I know I'm not so smart, being Wiccan and all, but how come those Christians who would gladly consign me to Hell for not appreciating how Jesus suffered on the cross for me are so willing to make others suffer for them?

And, yes, Arminius, I think I know you for having a good heart. I just don't think you always know what you're saying. :)

Most of the 'divil' of issues like this is actually in what you don't think twice about, or actually see for yourselves, if I can be so bold as to say.

Peace.

And, actually, the sex hangup has everything to do with the blowing-the-crap-out-of-innocents thing.

Humans really aren't as awful as monotheists seem to need to believe, just, you tie a man's member in a knot, and, it'll usually come out ugly.

Real ugly.

I mean, sorry if that was a bit sharp, Arminius, but conservative Christians claim they're being 'persecuted' by non-Christians when Fundie-owned Wal-Mart doesn't *force* all its employees to put the 'Christ' in buying all the outsourced plastic stuff the poor Christians went out to buy.

Fairly sure they haven't *actually* had the experience of what Christians do to try and get people to 'acknolwedge demonic oppression' if they don't particularly feel inclined to submit to more routine abuse.

Seriously.

To speak of 'torture,' how bout all the false-memories implanted by people who *just have to believe* that an autistic kid is possessed?

Do you know just how many of the homeless people out there were actually horrifically-abused into thinking they were demon-possessed? Frankly, mainstream churches would rather proclaim Pagans are really subject to demonic powers than account for their own messes, never mind the Fundies and Mormons.

First lie they tell to the people that do these things is that Christianity is an oppressed minority.

No one else does these things in this way.

You.

Now, if you want to blame Pagans for why when you live in denial of how you treat people, and wonder why you get this reaction, hoping an Apocalypse will sort it all out for you, well...

Probably there's nothing I can say to comfort you.

You *really* want to understand why people *so-inexplicably-seem to-hate-you....

You'd be better off listening to a Pagan than oneof Mohammed's boys. They ain't too discerning, either.

Paganplace,

I said: "And even the Pagans here know the answer to that one!"
You answered: Yes, "even" us... like a Christian in America ever got tortured by Pagans.

After I sent that, I realized I should have said this:
I know the Pagans here already know the answer to that one!

Or something better than what I said.

Arminius

Hi, Paganplace,

You must realize that the Schmooze and his knuckle-dragging fellow pack members reject anything you say or do because you are not 'Christian'. For that matter, they do the same to me because I do not fit their narrow, twisted definition of Christian. Talking to such people? We should try talking to a brick wall instead. At least it won't insult our intelligence - or any morality we do possess.

Arminius

"And even the Pagans here know the answer to that one!"

Yes, "even" us... like a Christian in America ever got tortured by Pagans.

"Now, one says we dont have a problem with Christians until they start telling us that their beliefs are superior to ours...and then the next one states their superiority by stating that TV preachers have no idea what they are doing.

Whose acting like the superior one here? "

Well, OK. Yes, to our view, wildly shooting a nail gun is not the same as building to code.

Yet, you do not have to believe in our Gods and practices to acknowledge we're human beings with a legitimate and actually pretty-studiously-responsible point of view.

Mr Mark, you said:
"Is it just me, or does it appear that the Xians on this blog are saying that the use of torture is justified when used to fight evil regimes that employ torture?"

Let's say that it is the right wing Christians (That's Christians, not Xians; please be with me on this. I capitalize Pagan, after all). Anyway. I am one Christian, to the left, who despises all torture and any who support it. I ask these benighted people: What Would Jesus Do? And even the Pagans here know the answer to that one!

Arminius

>>Is it just me, or does it appear that the Xians on this blog are saying that the use of torture is justified when used to fight evil regimes that employ torture?

Is it just me, or does it appear that the Xtheists
on this blog dont make a lick of sense. Good hissy-fitters, tho..gotta give em that.

(oh..I see them starting to huddle again)

>>[head explodes]

Take an aspirin, pour a glass of wine and chill..you brought it on yourself, dude.

>>Most Wiccans don't have a problem with Christians until they start telling us that their beliefs are superior to ours (which you just did).

then another states..

>>Shoot, I have watched those TV preachers and their congregation raiseing power .lol. They have no idea what they are doing, but they like the feeling... umm Witches?

(Opinion: ~As if they are the final word on knowing what theyre 'doing'~)

Now, one says we dont have a problem with Christians until they start telling us that their beliefs are superior to ours...and then the next one states their superiority by stating that TV preachers have no idea what they are doing.

Whose acting like the superior one here?

also..

And the poor, poor clueless one above who stated:

>>(re: Christians)...ignoring and belittling the "reality" to which the rest of the civilized world subscribes.

...Doesnt even realize the full 'reality' of the 'civilized' world.

Many nations of the 'civilized' world of which you speak ignore and belittle you also.

(Now..watch them all huddle together and schmooze one another...(again. Sad. Its all they have. They are not the majority. And, face it, it will be a long time before their bandwagon will be offered at the polls, if ever)

Good points, Paganplace.

Is it just me, or does it appear that the Xians on this blog are saying that the use of torture is justified when used to fight evil regimes that employ torture?

[head explodes]

Now, apparently, the problem with people not understanding 'Bamboo under the fingernails is pretty much never virtuous' ...falls on 'Pagan self-righteousness.' (Didn't we have 'no morals' last week?)

No, conservative Christians, we think your 'morals' are repulsive, because they are apparently meant to make innocent people suffer for being gay, while justifying atrocities against the 'enemies' you say we're terrible people for not hating, and... torturing... and... 'forgiving...'

I think on the 'morality' issue, well, I'm guessing you could either admit we have some 'morals' and stop saying we 'believe what we want to,' or..... figure when we take a stand on something like sick children or on drowning people within an inch of their lives and past sanity in hopes this will supply a dataset... It's not cause we needed something to feel 'self-righteous about.'

P/A,
Good Goddess, I do not want to convert anyone. We do not do that..if anyone comes to any of us with questions, we will do our best to answer...But most people are only curious and not Pagan material. See we do not believe in converting, we each have found our own way on the path. We kind of believe if the gods want ya they can tap you on the shouldier and lead you where you need to be. That's how it works.

We are small granted...but from 2000 to today we have grown 1600%. And people search us out.

As far as Will? I know several Wiccan leaders that have had Christian pastors come to them and learn how to pray with better focus. I have had a Pastor for several years now as a friend and student. He is a Christian that knows we do have tecniques that work.

There is always your Will in anything, you don't focus and want what you are praying for...it will not happen.

Shoot, I have watched those TV preachers and their congregation raiseing power .lol. They have no idea what they are doing, but they like the feeling... umm Witches? They are raisen and prayen...
terra

A headline that I saw today...Key False Iraq Intel Was Obtained By Burying Prisoner Alive.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html

terra

Poor Alex & DW. They think that bush uses torture to protect them. How delusional is that?

There is one reason and one reason only that bush uses torture:

BECAUSE HE CAN.

Bush's use of torture has nothing to do with getting information or protecting anybody. It has everything to do with his flaunting The Constitution, domestic and international law - and ignoring and belittling the "reality" to which the rest of the civilized world subscribes.

Torture isn't a reason for bush. It's an opportunity. An opportunity to remake the world in his own pathetic and ghoulish image.

The sooner you disencumber yourself of the belief that bush does anything for anyone's good, the sooner you'll understand what his gleeful celebration of torture is all about.

Concerned the Christian -

You're getting a little far afield with your implication that waterboarding can effectively prevent any and/or all of the atrocities that you've mentioned. I think I can finally see your agenda with Islam a bit more clearly - and by implication your support of both Bush and his war in Iraq (if I'm wrong here, please forgive the presumption).

In any event, waterboarding is torture - pure and simple. I see you support it. To anyone's knowledge it has never prevented the occurance of any of the horrors of war that you've inventoried here - be it in our own well-publicized holding/interrment camps or in the covert CIA-sponsored rendition sites in Jordan, Egypt, or Syria where 'agressive' interrogation methods are practiced without compunction by less squeamish interrogators (and here we thought Syria our sworn enemy). The paradoxes of war and all that....

Our executive administration nullified through the famous Bush signing statements the application of approximately 17 different provisions/documents that specifically prevent torture - DOJ loopholes in the law that were justified because incarcaration/interrogation was not occurring on American soil - eg. the Geneva Convention and like documents that stipulated to the exclusion of torture had no bearing on the treatment of said 'terrorist' suspects of indeterminate status. Remember the suspension of habeus corpus?? Another creative reading of the law by the Bush/Gonzalez team.

And lest we forget history -

The USA single-handedly extinguished over 200,000 lives In Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and caused untold suffering for countless others over many decades) and greatly assisted Great Britain in the destruction of about 200,000 more during the firebombing of Dresden - both occurred during WWII of course. Most of the dead and injured were 'collateral' damage ... innocent civilians.
The pilot of the Enola Gay just died the other day at age 90 and said he never lost a night's sleep - humans are amazing creatures, no? You mean to say that Harry Truman never had a moment of doubt about ordering such wholesale slaughter?? And yes, our entire country celebrated with the Japanese surrender - no doubt there either. Killing multitudes to spare the lives of multitudes (as the rationale went) was simply abiding by the rules of war - two days of infamy in August.

We needn't worry that our inherent Christian self-righteousness is in any danger of diminishing with
the advent of more recent enemies - Bush is apparently taking a page from the Truman playbook when he recently threatened Iran with nuclear pay-back should that become necessary....let Iran be warned (these folks mean it).

P/A said: "...or maybe just plain better than the basic, non-human-altered, Christ-centered Christian beliefs."

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware that Christianity was mankind's default setting. Interesting that people have been constantly coming up with new paths over the centuries before and since, and that neo-paganism has come about today when there's apparently no need for it.

I'm very excited to learn more about how Christianity hasn't been affected by humans at any point, especially with regard to choosing books for the Bible, and mistranslating a transliteration of a gnostic allegory added to Kabbalistic metaphor.

But no, we're just deviants who can't see the true light of Jesus. Again. Oh, how I love the constructive and mature dialogue on multi-faith forums.

And, MM, Wiccan. :)

Anyway, the thing bout torture is, it's around, cause it makes *interrogators* feel powerful. But ask the only conservative candidate who knows *what it's like* to be tortured. He knows you spout volumes of nonsense, with little sense or heed of what's true or not.

If there were truly a circumstance so 'extraordinary' that these volumes of nonsense were more helpful than nothing, then, well, if you had the time to torture someone, you'd have time to use gentler and more-effective methods.

That's all if it *were* worth becoming torturers, ourselves, which only makes people feel they'd be justified planting 'ticking bombs' in the first place.

It's cowardice and defeat.

Anyway, even those cyanide capsules are way out of favor in the intelligence world: the general idea, I'm given to understand, is to play for time and not be a hero. Modern information management means that you don't know too much, anyway, and intelligence networks just consider what you *do* know compromised, if you get picked up.

People might say *anything* under torture, you see. It induces confused, dissociative states, which means you mostly get nonsense, if the subject can even remember what the heck it was really all about in the first place. Even if the torturee is so turned around that they even think the story is sincere, by then their sense of reality's so messed-up they might not be able to tell the truth if they wanted to.

Look at what happens in domestic abuse situations. 'Exorcisms,' ...other cases of severe abuse. People can be 'broken,' ....anyone can. But people's memory is not a tape recorder with a lock of willpower on it, that once cracked plays back for you. It's interactive, ...torture's really only good for hearing what the interrogator wants to hear.

"RSS:

"There seems to be 2 arguments here.. One does torture work? And without endorsing it I don't see how anyone can say it doesn't work."

You could ask the CIA about that one.

"Think about it, why would torture have been around for thousands of years IF it didn't work?"

So have purported penis enhancements, as well as witch trials, for much the same reason. :) It's been around because the behavior is often *rewarded,* ...not cause people sat down and said, "Wow, this really gave us good intel."

Torture does one thing... gets people to say whatever it takes to stop the torture. If you are trying to enforce a party line or Witch-trial narrative, why, then, if you torture people, yes, you get someone to confirm your beliefs and finger others, ...anyone.

"I mean do you think the KGB learned nothing over the years using torture? Or how about the Mob?? Nothing? If torture never works doesn't it beg the question why give spy's going behind enemy lines in WWII cyanide capsules?"

Cause being tortured to death sucks a lot more than breaking a capsule? Cause it gives the interrogatee a measure of control that can help them get through a bad situation?

Sure, people might give up true information, but the torturer has little way of knowing.

Torture is most effective at *terrorizing* a populace into compliance, and you don't need actual guilt or good intel for *that.*

Merry Meet, ladies!

If I understand CCNL and others of like mind, we have to stop being Americans because the terrorists hate Americans. To Hell with the rule of law, to Hell with being the good guys, lets all wet our pants from the fear we might be attacked again.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.- Ben Franklin

How much more so when we're talking about our souls.

There seems to be 2 arguments here.. One does torture work? And without endorsing it I don't see how anyone can say it doesn't work.
Think about it, why would torture have been around for thousands of years IF it didn't work? I mean do you think the KGB learned nothing over the years using torture? Or how about the Mob?? Nothing? If torture never works doesn't it beg the question why give spy's going behind enemy lines in WWII cyanide capsules? If no one gave up information under torture why give our spy's the ability to kill themselves if captured? It makes no sense... So if torture, while maybe not the best way to get information, works than the second question is should we ever use it?

And to me while certainly not every form of it goes, in a FEW EXTREME CASES shouldn't we at least consider some methods IF it is the
ONLY way to get information to prevent an attack that kills innocent people. Now my understanding is of all the people we have captured we have only used waterboarding 3 times. And one time it was on Khaild Sheik Mohammed, the MASTERMIND behind the 9/11 attack..
I also hear it was VERY SUCCESSFUL in getting good intelligence from KSM. Hard to say how this puts us in the same category as the Gestapo.

People who are against ever using waterboarding never want to get into a discussion on what they would do when all conventional methods to get
information fail... Do we just give up??? Look I'm not saying waterboarding isn't a horrible thing to do to a person, I'm just saying allowing innocent people to die by not doing everything we can to prevent it is horrible to... And therefore if it is a CHOICE.. how can a decent people not choose the side of saving lives. Let's talk cases, what IF we had captured Khaild Sheik Mohammed BEFORE 9/11 and he wasn't talking, does anyone think waterboarding one man, a terrorist, would be WORSE than letting the 9/11 attack, 3000 DEAD, happen?

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

"The Realm of Reality: War is Hell!!! We enter Hell to include its torture and terror to win said wars!!! That is and has always been the nature of war."

As we so often have to point out, we Pagans don't compare things to the Christian Hell.

Tends to make a lot of things more clear-cut that way. Cause when people compare the horrors they wish to in inflict on others to Hell... the worst torture they can imagine, funny how they always seem to feel justified committing atrocities.

"Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres?"

If you'd ever been tortured cause someone made the "comparison" between what they felt like doing and the 'Hell' they imagined must surely result if a young person didn't obey their version of their theology, you might be closer to understanding why some people think it's a good idea to commit 'suicide bombing massacres' in the first place. Torture does not make people 'repent' of that worldview: it only reinforces in them the idea that they are fighting the good fight and avoiding a greater torture, and the 'Hellishness' goes on.

If we're comparing our own behavior to 'Hell,' then it's well past time we embraced a new basis for comparison.

*sigh*

So, now we have Christians saying we're unqualified to say 'Don't torture thy neighbors and enemies' cause... We aren't morally-superior like them?

Gods, what a world.

The 'ticking bomb' fantasy, folks, you know, that one used to justify routine use of torture as policy, is just that... a fantasy. The reason it'll never happen is that these groups use a cell structure that means you just won't *know you have someone who knows what's going on* without having observed that cell anyway... It's about police work, not violence.

Torture is just no way to get credible *confessions,* never mind good intelligence.

Seems this just isn't something that gets through to the pro-torture people: apart from being horrible and damaging the nation's soul to even do, it's an illusory form of seeking power over people we're afraid of.

For me, when it comes down to it, if someone *really* believes they've got to tune someone up to find a 'ticking bomb,' then they should be prepared to defend their actions in court, not have legal cover to make torture *policy.*

P/A: **Witches, wiccans and pagans have a enormous job before them to prove to the masses that their beliefs are far superior, easier to understand or maybe just plain better than the basic, non-human-altered, Christ-centered Christian beliefs.**

I never said that my beliefs were superior to Chrisitanity, only that this is the only path that works for me. I'm not going to lose any sleep over trying to convert people to Paganism. But please don't fool yourself into believing that your holy book was written by anyone other than human beings - just like every other book that has ever been written. There is no such thing as a "non-human-altered" religion.

**There are important reasons why so much more of mankind has followed Christianity the past 2000 years than have followed wiccan, for example.**

Persecution and sword-point conversions, for example. And I seriously doubt that those who "accepted" Christ under duress were sincere. It's one of those "say whatever the person threatening you wants to hear so he'll go away and leave you alone" things.
Co-opting and renaming of Pagan practices and traditions for another. Pagans and Christians may both decorate evergreens, but they are not celebrating the same event.

**Human nature, and all if its flaws, is incorrectly attributed more to Christians than to wiccans or pagans. A fundental flaw of wiccan's and pagan's own brand of self righteousness**

Perhaps the reason Christians get slammed more often for their human flaws is that there are so many of them who seem to get a kick out of telling all us non-Christians who and how we should be worshipping. I don't claim to be anything more than a human being who makes mistakes and does her best to make amends when she does. And I refuse to be treated as anything less than that.

I have many Christian friends, and they know that we can have theosophical discussions, as long as they don't cross the line into attempting to convert me.

The Realm of Reality: War is Hell!!! We enter Hell to include its torture and terror to win said wars!!! That is and has always been the nature of war.

Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres? waterboarding vs. loss of arms, legs and/or sight? waterboarding vs. five hundred pound bombs? waterboarding vs. fire bombing? waterboarding vs. cluster bombing? waterboarding vs. hydrogen/atomic bomb holocausts?

P/A-

"It seems that Schmoozie was digging for answers along with disagreement on issues (just as pagans disagree with Christianity and huddle among their own for strength in the same manner)...but received alot of tirades instead.

Witches, wiccans and pagans have a enormous job before them to prove to the masses that their beliefs are far superior, easier to understand or maybe just plain better than the basic, non-human-altered, Christ-centered Christian beliefs.

There are important reasons why so much more of mankind has followed Christianity the past 2000 years than have followed wiccan, for example. Human nature, and all if its flaws, is incorrectly attributed more to Christians than to wiccans or pagans. A fundental flaw of wiccan's and pagan's own brand of self righteousness"

First, our "tirades" were responses to Smooze's snotty posts. Second, we never said Wicca was better than Christianity, or that more people should follow Wicca. Third, the only person here being self-righteous is YOU.

Wiccans believe that each person must find their own path to the Divine, and to to coerce someone to follow one path or another is just plain wrong. Most Wiccans don't have a problem with Christians until they start telling us that their beliefs are superior to ours (which you just did). We have the right to define ourselves, not to be defined by others. So we do.

Alex says:

"- torture usually produces false results ? no method is foolproof, simple question and answer sessions will no doubt produce even more false results. I dont understand how you make the "leap" that if we knew for certain that someone "had" more information, that we would somehow know what that person knows before he even tells us. Doesnt make sense"

If you take a little time to look into the issue you will find that according to professional interrogators those " simple question and answer sessions" are exactly what produce the best intelligence; gaining the subject's trust works far better than fear, intimidation and pain.

And you misunderstand the reasoning in the second art of that argument; if we have intelligence to know a) that there is an imminent threat b) what the threat is and c) who the threat is coming from there is very little chance that torturing someone is going to produce any more information.

Such scenarios exist only in spy movies and the fevered imaginations of people who have allowed themselves to be intimidated and frightened by the terrorists. In reality, you can't even be certain at the outset that the person you are interrogating has any useful information.

You haven't addressed the other points I raised, by the way; would it be morally defensible to torture an innocent third party in an effort to get life saving information? How good does your other information have to be in order to justify torturing anyone? Do you need to know with certainty that there's a bomb about to go off. or is a suspicion that one might go off enough? Where do you draw that line?

Have you really thought this through?

Regards

A Hermit

>>as far as healing...what do Christians do when they pray for a healing for someone? focused prayer except with props. Is it magick? Well yes, if you consider the definition of magick being, "the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change."

I believe you misunderstand the Christian view of healing. The focus is not on 'your will' but on Gods will.

It seems that Schmoozie was digging for answers along with disagreement on issues (just as pagans disagree with Christianity and huddle among their own for strength in the same manner)...but received alot of tirades instead.

Witches, wiccans and pagans have a enormous job before them to prove to the masses that their beliefs are far superior, easier to understand or maybe just plain better than the basic, non-human-altered, Christ-centered Christian beliefs.

There are important reasons why so much more of mankind has followed Christianity the past 2000 years than have followed wiccan, for example. Human nature, and all if its flaws, is incorrectly attributed more to Christians than to wiccans or pagans. A fundental flaw of wiccan's and pagan's own brand of self righteousness

Arminius:
**Prayer for healing or whatever needs no props. Real prayer is between the individual and God. Yes, communal prayer - the service - uses 'props'. We love 'em. That includes music too. I think you folks do that too.**

For me, the difference between the way I prayed as a Christian and the way I pray as a Pagan is in the area of responsibility.
When I prayed as a Baptist, it was to ask an external deity to direct his divine energy toward a certain person or outcome. It was entirely up to him to say yea or nay, which relieved me of any responsibility for the outcome once the prayer was made. If my prayer didn't seem to be answered, the canard was that "God answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is NO." Whatever happened was chalked up to the will of God.
When I pray as a Pagan, it is to direct the divine energy within me toward a specific person or event, which makes me largely responsible for the outcome. That means that I have to be extremely careful to make sure my intent is honorable before I start throwing divine energy at something or someone. If my intent is not honorable, I may get the result I want as far as the other person or outcome is concerned, but it will also generate some nasty side effects for me. Karma's like that.

As for communal prayer - sure. You call it a church service - many of us call it a Circle. The more people focusing their divine energy toward a common goal, the more likely success will be. And yes, "props" (I prefer to call them tools), as well as liturgy and other ritual aspects are helpful in focusing that energy.

**There is another healing in Christianity, at least my church - the laying on of hands. I cannot swear to any miracles, but I know from personal experience that it can be a very intense experience.**

I never experienced it as a Christian - the Baptist churches I grew up in didn't do that. But I have had some accelerated healing as a result of Reiki and Okiyome.

Arminius,

Well our props are just a focus point. They help us to concentrate deeply.

We do use music, art, poetry, dance...but also candles and incense.

terra

Terra,

Yes, it would be absolutely fantastic to have an On Faith meet-up. Count me in.

Arminius

Terra,

Got to put in a word here for us Christians. Not a criticism, an explanation.

Prayer for healing or whatever needs no props. Real prayer is between the individual and God. Yes, communal prayer - the service - uses 'props'. We love 'em. That includes music too. I think you folks do that too.

There is another healing in Christianity, at least my church - the laying on of hands. I cannot swear to any miracles, but I know from personal experience that it can be a very intense experience.

God bless, and keep it up,

Arminius

Arminius,
I also know that not all Christians are closed and shuttered, it works both way.

It would be nice to have an On Faith Meetup one day...wouldn't it?

terra

shmoozie,

as far as healing...what do Christians do when they pray for a healing for someone? focused prayer except with props. Is it magick? Well yes, if you consider the definition of magick being, "the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change."

Do we think it works..sure, or people would not have been doing it for thousands of years.

Oh and we do have Creator God...s. Two who art One.
terra

Terra, Steve, et al,

You have opened the mind of this Christian. Not that I'm converting, but you have a beautiful thing going. Thanks.

As to the bashers on this thread. Yup, minds like a steel trap. Rusted shut.

Arminius

Steve,
Of course many are beyond stupid.
lol
But just think of all the people who now has a more realistic view of who we are.
We will not open all minds...some are locked tight and they like it that way. But we do make a difference and gain friends...

And the others? let them stew in their own juices..they are the losers.

terra

Hi Terra,

I know it's only one or two people, but I'm getting bored of the attacks. They can always be defeated by the question
"Do you actually know *what Wiccans do*? (And if so, why did you just make that stupid statement?)"

Ignorance about Wicca is fine, even assuming thar it has practices you wouldn't like is fine to an extent (the words 'pagan' and 'witch' aren't neutral for everybody, and I understand that.)

But while Starhawk may follow a particularly feminist form of Wicca, for anyone to read her article and still assume that the Wiccan path promotes torture and/or cursing is beyond stupid.

---

Schmooze: "People" are often wrong about a lot of things when it comes to minority groups. Assuming the Devil has something to do with modern neopaganism is one of those cases - an Adversary figure does not feature, because it's a pagan cosmology. Neopagans don't generally want a single creator god, and don't believe in 'the devil' either. If your point is that everyone but christians are being deluded by the Devil, then think of Wiccans as about in the same camp as Buddhists (and about as harmful).

As for witchcraft being associated with The Devil centuries ago, yes. Funnily enough, NEO-paganism does things differently. Try selling animal sacrifice to most neopagans and see how far you get.

Hey!

Is this where the Pagans hang out?

Wild Bill, wait for me.

Hi everyone. I feel all warm and comfy with wiccan and terra and pagan and starhawk.

lub

Henry the Dead Guy

Since I no longer have a body,
the only way you can torture me is by making me read Beowolf.

Steve,
Merry Meet,
We have to keep trying to spread the truth, if we don't it will always mean meeting up with those like Smoozie. Patience.

Blessed be,
terra

Hi Schmoozealert,

Since you find it confusing, I'll try to clarify for you:

Wicca is one form of modern witchcraft. There are many other forms of witchcraft as well. Wiccans are, however, witches. So are the other witches.

The word 'witch' is loaded historically to imply causing harm, but this is not the case when applied to modern neo-pagans or most wiccans. While the "threefold return" and "wiccan rede" are not held to be absolute laws by all, there are enough other facets of the faith that promote love for mankind and responsibility for your actions.

'Wicca' is too broad a term these days to claim that *all* wiccans do anything in particular, but if you a large number don't believe in Creator Gods, you'd be very wrong.

Most wiccans don't care if you believe they have powers, just as they don't care that everyone else isn't wiccan. That would be an old habit of several other religions instead.

To get back to the main question, no, the fact that Wicca includes spell-casting does not mean that it in any way condones torture, and the allegation is ignorant and offensive. As is becoming the norm on here.

SCHMOOZEALERT,

Check out the etymology of the word Wicca.

Old English also had hægtesse "witch, fury", whence Modern English hag, of uncertain origin, but cognate to German Hexe, possibly from a *haga-tusjon- "fence-wight" or similar. Other Old English synonyms of wicca and wicce include gealdricge, scinlæce, hellrúne.

The Old English plural form for both the masculine and feminine nouns was wiccan (= "witches") and wiccecræft was "witchcraft". The earliest recorded use of the word is in the Laws of Ælfred which date to circa 890.

In Old English glossaries the words wicce and wicca are used to gloss such Latin terms as hariolus, conjector, and pythonyssa, all of which mean 'diviner', 'soothsayer', which suggests a possible role of fortune-teller for the witch in The word wicca is associated with animistic healing rites in Halitgar's Latin Penitential where it is stated that

Some men are so blind that they bring their offering to earth-fast stone and also to trees and to wellsprings, as the witches teach, and are unwilling to understand how stupidly they do or how that dead stone or that dumb tree might help them or give forth health when they themselves are never able to stir from their place.
The phrase swa wiccan tæcaþ ("as the witches teach") seems to be an addition to Halitgar's original, added by an 11th century Old English translator.[12] Anglo-Saxon times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_(etymology)

terra

Hoo-boy, this is getting deep.

Terra, you said to Starhawk: "Pagans are blessed that you are one of us.". NOT good enough! The whole damn world is blessed!

As to Smooz. He seems to have a predefined definition of witch as evil. Do I detect right wing Christian?

As to the defenders of torture. Can you put yourself in the shoes of one who is tortured? What would you say to get out of it? And if, per chance, you knew when the bomb would go off, and the torturers kept going after you said when, what would you say next? And what would they believe? You disgust me, and you disgust any decent human being.

Arminius

Your first Paragraph is 100% accurate and should be imprinted in the mind of every law-enforcement or military person in our country.

>>We have strict laws that we have to follow...and without a devil to blame for our wrong doing.

Do you not realize this is exactly what the majority of people associate witches with...the devil..for centuries?

To think you can 'heal' and 'cast spells' is amazing.

To you, can every human being inherently will to heal someone else, or does something 'magical' happen when you become a wiccan?

This just defies imagination. Its like having a discussion within a lame Harry Potter book.

To think its the majority of people are wrong about witches is ludicrous.

Wiccan,
I hated that blasted movie. It brought so many Bunnies into the religion. I had a student that kept wanting to know when she would learn how to levitate. Sheesh! I finally decided that the girl was just nutz.

Now I loved The Wickerman! lol...the old one of course...; )

What is that saying? Lies can go around the world while truth is putting on his shoes.

Truth tends to be much more boreing also.

terra

wiccan,

Now where would the Brothers Grimm have come up with 'evil witches' some 200-250 years ago when they lived? I guess you would probably say they were misled too. The whole world is misled on wicca/witches. Nobody understands them. Sorcery, witchcraft, spell casting yada yada yada were pinned as evil looooooooooong before the Bro's Grimm. They deny a creator God...yet they think others should believe, accept or recognize that they have powers? Yeah, right.

Apparently, you think it starts with those here who comment.

If you have Google..do a search. Its everywhere.
witches...wicca...wicca doesnt mean witches...witches doesnt mean wicca....wiccans call themselves witches

To the lay person, you all seem to be a very confused bunch.

SCHMOOZEALERT,
Umm well see its this way...Wicca is the older word for Witch. Wicca is a Anglo Saxon word which is really pronounced Wit-cha. So it was shortened to Witch. Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches, today, are Wiccans.

When Witchcraft was renewed there was a law in England that wouold have thrown Witches in prison. So the word Wica was used...but the law was repealed in 1954 so Witch was used.

But then some folks still do not use the word Witch because of the discrimination they have to go through. People believe the old tales and are repeating lies of the inquisition. Read The Malleus Maleficarum...and check out the writers Heinrich Kramer & James Sprenger. Check out the hate and pure nonsence. The church feared women and burned Witches. You and your ilk only promote the same kind of nonsence and hate. Just because there has not been any auto de fes lately does not mean that people do not face losses because of stupidity.
terra

A hermit writes:"First of all; how certain do you have to be about the person's possession of "potentially life saving information?" If you had good enough knowledge of the situation to be certain that the person had such information you probably wouldn't need the information they might give you! Torture, in any case, usually produces false information; forced confessions, stories told to make the torturer happy, confirming his already existing beliefs regardless of the truth of those beliefs, etc."

- torture usually produces false results ? no method is foolproof, simple question and answer sessions will no doubt produce even more false results. I dont understand how you make the "leap" that if we knew for certain that someone "had" more information, that we would somehow know what that person knows before he even tells us. Doesnt make sense

I'm with you here, Terra. He probably watched "The Craft" and now thinks he knows everything about Wicca.

SCHMOOZEALERT,

Witches are indicted against harming others. We can also not even try to heal anyone without their express agreement.

We have strict laws that we have to follow...and without a devil to blame for our wrong doing, we have to accept it on our own fate. In many ways when we join this religion we become signatories on Priciples and Ordaines that we have to live with...without the out of changeing the definitions.

Please stop getting your info from fictional books and bad B movies.

terra

Smooze-

Why lame? Do you have better information on my religion than I do? If so, teach me.

Norrie Hoyt was referring to the Salem 'witch' trial...not the Salem 'wicca' trial.

And my info wasnt from the Brothers Grimm.

Nice try. But lame.

Alex says:

"If we have a suspect who may give potentially life saving information regarding imminent terrorist plots i.e Osama's right hand man, then I think the legislative and executive branch can provide proper oversight to allow torture. To take it completely off the table is ridiculous."

While this might sound reasonable at first glance there ares some serious problems with it.

First of all; how certain do you have to be about the person's possession of "potentially life saving information?" If you had good enough knowledge of the situation to be certain that the person had such information you probably wouldn't need the information they might give you! Torture, in any case, usually produces false information; forced confessions, stories told to make the torturer happy, confirming his already existing beliefs regardless of the truth of those beliefs, etc.

The second problem is the morality of the act itself; is inflicting suffering on another human being justified simply in order to obtain information? If so, what if you haven't got the terrorist, but you do have his children? Would it be acceptable to torture his children to find him so you could torture him to get the information you want?

The question isn't as simple as you might have thought...

Regards

A Hermit

Posted on November 7, 2007 16:50

"SCHMOOZEALERT:
It is a known fact that 'witches' believe they can cast 'spells' on people, some of them spells that bring harm to the people.

But no, witches dont torture."

Smooze-

Where do you get your information? Because they're lying to you, sweetie. It is against Wiccan ethics to work magick (cast spells) on another without their express consent. Also, by the Law of the Three-fold Return, any harm that was caused by a "spell" would return to the one who cast it three times as strong.

Please don't rely on the Brothers Grimm for your information.

It is a known fact that 'witches' believe they can cast 'spells' on people, some of them spells that bring harm to the people.

But no, witches dont torture.

Alex,
Prove to me that in any case that we knew there was a bomb, that it was going to go off, we knew where it was, we knew who all was involved, but we did not know when? And torture was used and it was successful.

Torture is wrong and will only bring more terrorists. We have more terrorists now then before we went into Iraq. We have more trouble in more places and there are more nations that are breaking with us. We need a global united fight to end terrorism...we need to know why we are no longer trusted to stand up for our so called Beliefs.

What beliefs do we have? What do we stand for?
When this nation commits a war crime, such as torture...that is done in MY name and your's. We allowed the Bast%^&*s to get by with what they are doing. They used fear..and you bought it.

As for as my logic goes...it is not just my logic but what this country signed onto.Waterboarding is considered torture according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, of which the United States is a signatory.

~Stalin ,pol pot have done many things that we do today, that doesn't make them us nor does the reverse hold true. That type of logic is faulty at best.~

So the bad guys do bad things...and we do bad things..so where are the good guys? and my logic is faulty?

terra

Waterboarding is similar to the ducking of accused witches that was commonplace during the witch trials. (From Wikipedia) In medieval times, ducking was seen as a foolproof way to establish whether a suspect was a witch. The ducking stools were first used for this purpose but ducking was later inflicted without the chair. In this instance the victim's right thumb was bound to left toe. A rope was attached to her waist and the 'witch' was thrown into a river or deep pond. If the 'witch' floated it was deemed that she was in league with the devil, rejecting the 'baptismal water'. If the 'witch' drowned she was deemed innocent. This particular method of ducking was also inflicted on men accused of witchcraft.

Sound familiar, anyone? But no, Christians don't torture.

If Cal Thomas is a crackpot...

..then Henry James is a schmoozer.

Terra,

No one says it s a harmless or painless process. No need to go over the various types of torture. That is not where the argument lies. My point is that in exceptional cases, we may consider it. It doesnt have to be for this administration or just the re pubs and neocons. There would be oversight , much more then at abu, the Nazi's and the gulag. The constant use of horrid examples of human behavior doesn't answer the question ...If there was a high degree of certainty that a prisoner who is guilty of heinous terrorist activities knew of additional plans to hurt innocent people, then should some form of torture be considered ? Nothing s/b taken off the table. The Nazi's , Stalin ,pol pot have done many things that we do today, that doesn't make them us nor does the reverse hold true. That type of logic is faulty at best.

>>Alex and DW: I was of course referring to the Nazis Patton didn't shoot. There were thousands, and somehow I don't think he shot any who surrendered either.

Compared to today, war was certainly a different game back then.

Starhawk only has 13 comments so far.

Cal Thomas has 172!!!!!

Starhawk, You have to become a complete crackpot like Cal and you will get more reaction.

Stop being so humane and sensible and lovely!!!

Alex and DW: I was of course referring to the Nazis Patton didn't shoot. There were thousands, and somehow I don't think he shot any who surrendered either.

To Norrie Hoyt:

Were those witch trials, or wiccan trials?

thanks.

Starhawk,

As usual I agree with you completely.

For those without much knowledge of the Salem witch trials, I would like to comment on this quote from your essay:

"The Salem Witch trials in Massachusetts in the 1690s were the last spasm of the torture-fest. Nineteen people were hanged, one died under torture, at least five more died in prison, and all were later exonerated—after they were dead."

To say that "...one died under torture... is objectively true, since heavy stones were placed on his prone body until he expired.

But without further explanation, the statement is misleading. The process to which the accused was subjected was an established legal procedure both in England and in British colonial America.

It was called the "peine forte et dure." It was applied to any criminal defendant who refused to plead either guilty or not guilty. The stones were added slowly to give the accused time to think about his refusal to plead and to change his mind.

The purpose of the process was not to torture for torture's sake, or to punish, but to coerce the accused to plead one way or the other. Ultimately the weight of the stones on the chest prevented breathing and the defendant suffocated.

Prisoners in capital cases often refused to plead, because, if they pleaded guilty, or were found guilty at a trial after pleading not guilty, all of their property would be forfeited to the Crown.

Under the prevailing law, a trial could not begin unless the prisoner had entered a plea. Where, as in the case of Giles Corey at Salem, the accused died without pleading, his family inherited his property.

If Giles Corey had pleaded either guilty or not guilty, he'd undoubtedly have been pronounced guilty and hanged.

His family would then be penniless and he'd still be dead. He made a wise choice. His reputed last words were: "More weight!"

You can read more about the peine forte et dure at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressing

I think General Patton's overall view was the best way to get hurt (in war) is to worry about getting hurt.

There was no need for him to even remotely entertain the idea of waterboarding Nazis..he just flat out wanted to eliminate the b*******. Understandable.

Alex,
In Abu Ghraib people were tortured to death. And so to you there is a degree of torture. Having ground glass put into your genitals is torture...but some lesser thing is ok? So it's like being a little bit pregnant. Is being tied up in a way that stops the blood and so stops the heart..is that torture?

Waterboarding that was used by the Spanish Inquisition, by Pol Pot, and by the Japanese on our soldiers is ok? So we are a nation of laws, unless it is inconvient that is. We make of our honor such a unimportant thing.

So you think that this administration can provide oversight? This administration ordered tortureing in the first hand. And until the Democrats gained the small majority that they have, there was no oversight. The pictures of Abu Ghraib had to be made public before there was one hearing by the Republican congress. The pictures were a year old by that time. And then only some of the info got out...there was so much worse that was not brought out into the public realm. After all we need protected. And what did that conmgress worry about? That it had happened? No..that it was made public.

I am a witness to what humans can do to each other...from police turning dogs and water hoses on children, lynching a black 14 year old for whistling at a white woman, to pulling a man by a chain from the back of a pick up truck until his body falls apart. So what would you say is torture?
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

terra

Alex: I don't recall Patton waterboarding Nazis. I doubt he would approve. I'm with Patton.

Well put, Alex. And with all due respect, much more intelligent than the post above yours.

JJ, you're really getting freaky, man.

If we have a suspect who may give potentially life saving information regarding imminent terrorist plots i.e Osama's right hand man, then I think the legislative and executive branch can provide proper oversight to allow torture. To take it completely off the table is ridiculous. Guantanamo/abu bears no resemblance to Nazi terror camps, to make the comparison is intellectually dishonest. I'm sure Adolph had a hard time with all the lawsuits against the Nazi gov. I bet Hitler an his staff really made sure his prisoners were well fed and allowed lawyers. I think he also allowed the Jews to freely practice there religion (or was that the reason he exterminated them?)If you want to make the argument against torture , then fine, but pls dont insult every one's intelligence by making comparisons that dont stand up to the light of day.

Thanks for the convincing demonstration that the argument that "traditional" religious faith is the only source of moral rectitude is utter nonesense. the contrast with Cal Thomas couldn't be more stark.

Starhawk,

Pagans are blessed that you are one of us. You bring to mind again what not only our past is, but what humanity can condone and carry on.

I was a young child when my Dad was stationed in North Africa. We lived in Tripoli and I went to a UN school. Dad would take us to different places so that I learned of the culture and history of that place. It was awesome and beautiful. One place that wasn't was in Tunis.

I remember the jeep ride over the mountains to what had been a Nazi POW camp. It was white cement block buildings. Inside was dirt floors and white walls. But on the walls of the one long narrow building, that I went into, I remember seeing scratched into the long walls, women, naked ladies with tiny parachuters landing all over her. Also etched into the cement block was names...hundreds of names, beside many were "Star of Davids". What was also all over those walls were holes...bullet holes, and from those holes dark brown stains that splattered and ran down those while walls.

Shall I talk about the smell? The smell that was imbedded into the firt floors and the very blocks? I was in my Dad's arms and he told me what this place was..and what men did to other men. I was 6. I remember. We all need to remember.

Where is the line we will not cross as humans? What line will we not cross as Americans?
Where do we hold up our Democracy and our laws as leading to freedom? Whose freedom?

I have seen to much of what can happen when we start crossing lines.We can not allow our leaders lead us into a black hole of self destruction.

Thank you Starhawk for your wise words.
terra

Amen, Gandalf, amen!

Maybe Cal Thomas could read this and learn something! It is never too late to learn...