Let's Celebrate All Deities

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Mohammed's not a deity. Muslim's worship Allah.

paganplace- you misread me then.
there was no acrimony-

still- acrimony is a harsh description

i take pains to post the actual comments people make, rather than misrepresnting their intent-
(only starhawks in this case)
i do it to be fair-

i would make the same call for fairness no matter who the recipients of my poor efforts were directed at

my response to starhawks post- was only that, a response to what i felt was somehwat censorious of those whose views are different than hers.

in a pluralistic society, i truly believe we do have to tolerate public expressions even though they are anathema to our own views

to say people must stay in their homes to do so, i find very oppressive and censoring

if you want christians to stay in their homes to celebrate- that means pagans must do the same-

however, pagans do many celebrations outside
so, if you look at it from your own perspective, that wouldnt be fair, would it?

so, of course, its not fair for anyone, including christians.

so, there is no "we"
there is no "us"

i was responding to an individual, starhawk

why is it a "bad idea" for me to come and post?

it is not up to you to decide if it is "OK" for mew to express my opinion

i am respectful
i am polite
i NEVER call people names
i am not unkind

i am hurt that you said this-

"Gee, Victoria, seems you're capable of being disingenuous all for yourself"

i am not a liar, and shouldnt be called one for no reason.

and again- as you quoted me-

", and turning it around to imply we're being 'intolerant against Christians,' which I still don't get where you got that"

i most certainly did not say that

and there was no "we"- it was to an individual(starhawk, who posts here expecting responses)

this is why i carefully quote people-
to honor their words, and not misunderstand or misrepresnet them

Lady T, Blessings and Happy Yule. Yes we have known each other for a long time now. You know me very well indeed, however, in this case, making you eat your words wasn’t planned … with or without the crackers! As for the post … thank you. If I have learned nothing else from you … and we both know that’s not true… I have learned to speak up. It does get me in trouble from time to time though!

May the Lady and Lord bless you and those near you.
Lady R

Pilgrim, thank you, I’m glad you were so inspired. That will be a powerful prayer. May it speak to you and strengthen you as you follow your Path. Season’s Blessings to you and yours.

Paganplace, thank you and Blessed Be.

Namaste
Silvlaro

I'm not sure, Victoria, but it seems to me you've been quoting calls for diverse celebrations, and turning it around to imply we're being 'intolerant against Christians,' which I still don't get where you're seeming to derive that from.

That is in fact something others portray *us* as being about, whatever we actually say. Even while quoting us saying otherwise.

Anyway, I was just a little bothered at the sudden acrimony, or seeming acrimony, Victoria. At least in the middle of a nice Yule, (what a contrast between our celebration and all this religious/political 'Christmas War' stuff here. ...if you didn't mean it that way, OK.

I just decided, 'Oh, well, that was a bad idea, coming here during vigil.'

Blessed be, all. :)

Silvlaro

Beautiful post! I took your advice about your devotional, and morphed it for a Christian (me!).
I intend to say it often.

I strive towards universal perfection
I pray for the light and love of
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
To Cleanse and Bless
My Body and Spirit
So that I can perform today
In Love, Honor and Wisdom

Thanks, best of the season to you and yours, and God bless,

Pilgrim

silv,

Blessings and Happy Yule...
As I have known you for a "long" time...and I know how you strive for balance...and making me eat my words...with crackers. lol. Good post there Lady R...

Goddess bless you and yours on this holy season.

Lady T

This thread prompted me into doing a bit of research into how many religions hold sacred observances at this time of year. Considering the numbers, many dating back to pre-recorded history, I don’t see how any one religion can lay claim to the entire season. I find it a bit ironic that everyone talks about peace and good will at the this time of year and yet there are more arguments and disagreements flying around in the name of “religion”. I was also interested to discover just how many were combinations of older observances/celebrations. I don’t think most people realize just where the traditions they follow originated.

With that said I will move on to the rest of my reason for posting … and if you think about what I say here you will see that yes they are connected.

I’m sure you are all aware of the difficulties this medium presents us with when it comes to reading “meaning” and or “inflection” into what is shared. Since we can neither hear “tone of voice” nor see the “body language” others are using it is easy to misinterpret what we read. If we could all be face to face for these discussions I am sure that most of us would discover that the perceived insults were, in fact, none existent. As it was pointed out to me once, it is so easy to “see” what one wishes in these writings, be it praise or insults. Instead of instantly jumping to the defensive how about taking a moment to think of the times one of your posts got a negative response and upon reading that response your first thought was “I didn’t mean it THAT way!”. If each of us stopped for a minute and objectively read before reacting I am sure there would be more productive exchanges of thought as well as a better understanding of one another.

Now before someone calls me a “love and lighter” I will say that I do realize there are those out there who mean to be argumentative and insulting, it’s what they do. The more you try to explain your thoughts the more they bash you. Personally I try to ignore those people. Talking to them amounts to attempting to teach a pig to sing, it wastes my time and annoys the pig. Discussions not arguments are productive. Let them look else where for a victim.

In the spirit of sharing let me pass you this thought … I’m not sure who the author is but I find it fitting and have taken to using it as my morning devotional:

I am one with universal perfection
I invoke the positive energies of
The Lord and The Lady
To Cleanse and Bless
My Body and Spirit
So that I can perform today
In Love, Honor and Wisdom

Using a little creativity you could substitute the name of your deity and this would be a lovely prayer for anyone to start his or her day with.

May the memories you make be happy ones and may those you love be safe.

Namaste
Silvlaro

Dear Terra,

"Such bans on Christmas continued well into the 19th Century.

Times have changed...

terra"

I was raised Catholic before I rejected it. I had no real idea of what you are saying. The Protestant church I now attend accepts Christmas as a cause for celebrations.

Ya learn something new, every day, I guess, if you listen to people. That is a note on history that I will follow up a bit later. Now, I have to go and celebrate.

Thanks for the info and Merry Yule.

All the best to you and yours.

Mod

why the edge paganplace?

it was either be sarcastically self deprecating or return aggressive criitcism with the same.

you dont have to agree with my views, but you dont have to call me disingenuous (liar), or insult me as a mindless drone-

im as entitled as anyone to have an opinion-

i honestly dont know how to engage you-
ive tried being cordial, inviting-

ive tried just letting you be,

but if im insulted for no reason in a personal way- i feel compelled to not let myself be misrepresented as a fool- which im not-

i dont like being accused of falseness and disngenuity,when im being sincere.

"living in a pluralistic society, and enjoying its benefits, menas that even when people publicly express ideas that are anathema to yours,
you still tolerate them as you desire to be tolerated by them."

i really believe this, and live it too-
there is no sarcasm in my initial post-
it is real and honest

*waving as she breezes through seeing if anyone's posted greetings during the festivities...*

Uh, huh.

Gee, Victoria, seems you're capable of being disingenuous all for yourself, if you want to sarcastically let on like a call for diversity and tolerance somehow means we're being intolerant.

Oh, well.

Again, blessed Yule, all.

:)

PILGRIM-
strangely enough- icame upon this article looking for that quote (although i thought samuel johnson said it first-hmm)
it happens to be written by a ,,,mr lazarus

Ben Franklin, of course, understood this. His actual quote, as I understand it, reads: "Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/lazarus/20060202.html

yesss paganplace-

you caught me- it is ever so clear now that i mindlessly parrot what others "disingenuously" tell me- sucking it up and believing it no matter what

since i obviously possess no ability to construct and coalesce original ideas on my own i am quite dependent on others telling me what to think-

ill just sit here quietly and wait for further instructions from the mothership...

tolerating each other?

what a ridiculous idea!

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

*swinging by to wish everyone a merry and safe Solstice,*

Having diversity in public displays and the like, Victoria, is *not,* as is so often claimed, censorship. People are free to worship in (literal) public squares, this is different from the government itself endorsing one religion and excluding others.

In fact, the radical Christian position tends to be to accuse minorities and diversity advocates of 'censoring' them if they aren't allowed to use the government to recognize *only* their religion, (conveniently, they take this as *part* of their own religion.)

It's a false accusation to imply that wanting public displays to be *inclusive,* means diversity people *don't* want Christians included, too, (scant danger of that, anyway.)

...Usually made by those trying to justify *exclusive* (conservative) Christian use of public property.

So I wouldn't worry, there, Victoria. Those who told you to be concerned about 'reverse discrimination' are either misinformed or being disingenuous.

In a time when religion in government has been the source of so much polarization, it's my hope that the holidays can come to be seen as a celebration of the true, diverse America, not an endorsement of the idea that only 'Christian America' even exists.

And happy holidays to *you,* by the way. :)

Victoria,

GROK!

Yes, Christmas is for everybody. I have no problem with public displays so long as they do not exclude others.

Lazarus also said:
"You can have freedom or you can have security. Don't ever count on having both at the same time."

thanks pilgrim for the lazarus long quote-
robert heinlein was not a christian-
he even created a faux religion in stranger n a strange land
i grok

"So no, I don’t think we’re being too ‘politically correct’ to hold to the guiding principles that our Constitution is founded upon..."

the constitution states that the GOVERNMENT may not prefer one religion over another by instituting law-

it does not censor the public expression of ones beliefs
no law is being enacted by (the government)when a choir sings carols in a public forum

"I support Christ being the ’star of the show’ in every Christian Church and Christian home..."

people are allowed to leave their houses and retain their expression
does this also mean pagans shpould stay in their homes and not be allowed to celebrate their rituals outside?
of course not- that would be ridiculous and oppressive

I do not support Christ being the star of the show in public celebrations—

if you want freedom yourself- you have to tolerate it in others

"Let’s keep our celebrations respectful of the multiplicity of approaches to religion and faith that make us a rich, diverse, and free society."

well, doesnt that include chrsitians?

living in a pluralistic society, and enjoying its benefits, menas that even when people publicly express ideas that are anathema to yours,
you still tolerate them as you desire to be tolerated by them.

it doesnt mean censoring

Thank you for saying this, as it needs to be said, sometimes it can be hard to celebrate this time of year without feeling guilty that one doesn't have a Christ in it. I feel this is a deliberate move on the part of certain religious movements to enforce their views onto others.

To all -

Have a Cool Yule and a Frantic First!

All winds blow toward Windreader!

Happy Holidays, Windreader!

Please accept without obligation, express or implied, these best wishes for an environmentally safe, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, and gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday as practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice (but with respect for the religious or secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or for their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all) and further for a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated onset of the generally accepted calendar year (including, but not limited to, the Christian calendar, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures). The preceding wishes are extended without regard to the race, creed, age, physical ability, religious faith or lack thereof, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee(s.

Most Christians are ignorant about all the historical trappings of Christmas. They never think about where the Christmas Tree came from or why Christ's birth, despite not having any indication when Christ was born anywhere, was placed on Dec 25th (due to the Earth’s precession, 2000 years ago this was the Winter Solstice). By contrast those who are Pagan or UU or other "under ground" religions or points of view are normally well educated about these issues. Christianity and Christmas are copies of previous religions and myths, yet those who believe in this have no clue (or don’t want a clue), which I believe is a voluntary ignorance. If they don't "go there" then they don't have to answer some very difficult questions about their beliefs. It is safer this way - ignorance is bliss.

Actually, there's some pretty good arguments made that Jesus wasn't born around the Winter Solstice. If you look at the patterns of when shepherds had their flocks out in the pastures at night in the Levant, it's usually between April and October. In December, the rainy season, the sheep are kept in close pastures. December 25th (or thereabouts) was chosen several hundred years afterwards because it was the birthday of several other Roman Gods, including Mithras and Sol Invictus (the Unconquerable Sun), as well as the Festival of Saturnalia. This way, Christians could celebrate something too.

Oh, and pigs are apparently highly intelligent creatures, more so than sheep or cattle. They just have a bad rep because of their penchant for eating anything and wallowing in mud because they have no sweat glands. Back in the day, that meant that their meat was more of a hazard than that of cows, sheep, or goats. The sow was also the sacred animal of Demeter.

Paganplace:

"Of course, like some humans will, he had to elaborate, ....start categorizing 'Eclati-On' vs 'Eclati-Off,' ....that's not just dualistic, that's *binary.* On-off. Like a digital thing."

To me "Eclati-On vs. Eclati-Off" just means the same things as "Do as you will, harm none". When you are Eclati-Off it just means you are harming someone. It has nothing to do with categorizing.
Understand?

JJ's photons were dimming a bit when he was ranting hateful things. And that was what I tried to tell him. It hurt me to see a friend to bitter.

Jacob:

Never hate, it destroys your Eclat.

((((((((((((LOTS OF HUGS))))))))))))

To Everyone:

Have a wonderful Holiday Season whatever you celebrate (or not!)

Brother or sister, TexasMAGI@aol, we only ask that you do unto others, as you would want them to do unto you. We want peace and love. If this is in your religious perspective, please give it to us, we who are different from you.

Peace, love, and tolerance are my wishes for you.

Yes, Let's Celebrate All Deities.

god Bless Us, Everyone.

"Every god, every mythology, every religion is true in this sence, it is true as metaphorical of the human and cosmic mysteries"

Joseph Campbell

Here is the beginning to his "The Masks of Eternity" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG4XyQfzI8k

TexasMagi, Jesus could have avoided all the confusion if only he had simply not chosen to be born smack dab in the middle of an ancient worldwide Winter festival, on the exact same day that dozens of other dying/resurrecting god men were also born of virgins for millennia before him. Seeing how your God is omnipotent it’s hard to see how he couldn’t have seen the confusion that would cause. Nevertheless, thanks for stopping in and reminding us that we’re all going to burn in Hell, I had almost forgotten.

A very merry Christmas to you too!

Umm, Texas?

Try living in our shoes a turn of the Wheel, if you think that.

Seriously.

As for your world ending any-time-now, yadda, yadda, you've been saying that an awful long time.

Could be that 'PC' ain't your first concern, never mind coming after lil' ol' us.

Isn't it interesting that those who deem it important to give equal respect to all (even witches) are rarely willing to give such hollow respect to the things that REALLY deserve it from a practical/historical standpoint? Or did you miss the fact that other "deities" are invited, nay, encouraged to be worshiped on a holy day set apart to celebrate the gift of restored fellowship with our Creator (on His terms) through the Messiah He promised, who was prophesied to die for our sins and who did so that we might be redeemed to life? If you can read between the lines at all, you can see that only the truth suffers this kind of treatment. False religions and cults never suffer the demands of Christians to get equal time and PC "fairness doctrine" treatment...because they already declare the truth of our creation and the Creator, and are not in competition with pagan or other false religions that lead mankind away from that truth. Soon the Messiah will return again in power and dominion, like many Jews (ignorant of their own prophets) expected Him to come the first time. At that time, this truth will be supremely important to all. Take the time now to learn how everything the Jews did pointed to the lamb of God, Jesus of Nazareth, who would first come to take away the sins of the world (Passover, Isaiah 53, etc) before He comes to destroy the works of unrighteousness and to rule the Earth. Why not? Everything else He promised has come to pass! Truth...indeed.

Btw, Christians who feel all 'persecuted' cause 'Merry Christmas' isn't *mandatory.*

Know what it's like to have to hide your religion in your *own home?*

Pardon if you get the occasional 'Boo F'n Hoo' when you whine about not being able to put a crucifix in the middle of Congress or something.

Gods. Perspective, here.

Gods, Terra, I'm not quite sure what all that's about, but, 'Back to work?' I haven't even started cooking, yet. :)

We're still trying to balance having a holiday with the posssibility of real estate people barging in and taking it out on us if they see anything Pagan in our humble house.

What a wonderful time of the year.

Paganplace,
Yes...how can we strive for enlightenment if we do not experience all there is?

If you do return and experience all ways of being human...how can we say being any certain way wrong?

The High Priest to our group is a gay, black man..he is also my best friend. I am a middle aged, very white hetrosexual woman. Well I would be middle aged if I live to be 118. I have teased the HP that when he comes back it will be as a White republican attending Liberty U.

My husband of 20 years would be surprised to know I was a lesbian...we don't tell each other everything, but that would be a big bang of a secret.

I must say that, as a Pagan with Christian family and friends(Christmas eve is here),as well as a group with a ritual, yule log burning and Mother Berta gift exchange...(Yule is here) this time of the year is pure chaos.

Happy Yule you'all! Back to work!
terra

Ah, wouldn't worry *too* much about that, Terra. I really think that we mostly get crap a) cause we're supposed to be, and b) whenever we fail to be the 'bad guys' in Christian narratives.

I think they keep trotting out all these 'Ex Wiccans' convinced they're demon possessed, more concerned with using these mentally-ill people who wouldn't know a Wiccan thing out of an Ebay lot, ..to insist we're bad guys, than they are interested in caring for such people or preventing them from harming other mentally-ill people or inciting others to violence against the innocent, cause... well, just like they can't divorce science from their Bible, they have the somewhat more problematic difficulty recognizing that fellow human beings *aren't* put on Earth to be the villains in *their* book.

Frankly, I think they fear like Harry Potter cause they got theologically confused what a book *is,* and that just dovetails so nicely with blaming the nearest Wiccan for the bad effects of what they do rather than facing up.

Or just having a merry Christmas.

What can you do.

Ban "not made in America Religions"?

ok I spit tea all over my keyboard...Just what is a Made in America religion? Heavens Gate? Jim Jones? The "God Hates Fags" dimbulbs? They all claim Jesus and being Christian...so I guess they do not have the right to wear the Union tag.

Umm what is a Made in America religion?

Not Christianity...after all it was first made in Israel, Rome and Greece.

Sorry I guess you're tough out of luck...darn! we must Import religions along with wheat gluten and lead based toys.

terra

Really is, that hospitality thing. Goes back further than Islam or Christianity or Judaism... Actually, if you look at the Old Testament stories that Christians usually use to try to justify gaybashing, ...what happens there actually makes a lot more sense in terms of *ancient rules of hospitality* rather than ideas of *modern sexual tabooes.*

(ie, Lot wasn't trying to offer his daughters as sexual surrogates for a rapacious 'gay' mob; he was trying to shame the inhospitable townspeople away from dragging his guests out of his house on the basis they were *strangers,* ...if guest-right had been violated in that way, he may as *well* give his daughters away, cause his house would have been dishonored, and as women of that time they would have had no prospects, anyway.*)

Which all goes to some Christians confusing 'Know' with, what we'd say was the verb to F. Not the same thing, though, to people then or to Pagans now.

Hospitality is a key virtue, though, and even in Muslim countries where they might beat you on the street, when you're the guest of someone's house, you're supposed to be *safe.*

It's something that's referred to in some of the Western traditions that have been diminished to wassailing or trick-or-treating-or caroling, but these things are about community connection in urban situations *precisely because* this is a shared human value.

One that I think is ill served by some of the behavior of political Christians just lately, as a matter of fact.

I think the thing about us is that WE know that so much of what is said about us just isn't true, and are finally starting to speak out.

We're here talking about who we are or what we do in case that someone reading these forums comes to it with bad information about us can leave with an open mind. Even if you don't agree- and that's ok- you're still welcome to the party if you are respectful.

Even you, JJ.

Blessed be!

Paganplace

No offence was taken! I will try to understand JJ or whoever he is. I still consider 'Concerned' as a hopeless cause.

The rule of hospitality has a world wide spread. It is now particularly strong, as I understand, in Afghanistan and that area. It was apparently very strong in Celtic and Germanic pre-Christian cultures. I know, therefore, that the Pagans of today follow that, and I respect it highly.

I didn't mean for you to take offense, Pilgrim.

At the *very* moment, this isn't about you. Our friend JJ has been, ..... in a bad way for some time, and we've just seen a glimmer of his old jubilance, ... wouldn't want to start calling him porcine names, now, would we. :)

And, should I come to be needing hospitality in some future travels, I'd hope to find a house so hospitable, and likewise is offered. :)

There's a number of Pagan myths that we take pretty seriously about hospitality, among other affairs, ... that, if you needed convincing, any guest might be the Gods in disguise... (more Pagan traditions that found their way into Christian ones, only to be suspected as having something sinister about them by current-day-Christians)

...But offers of hospitality are well-respected.

All there is about this is, give JJ a chance to come back to the world, here. That was an overture, just now, I think.

As in, It's OK, JJ, we'd be lacking as friends not inviting you back from where you've been. We know you've been saying some things, but, we know it doesn't make you happy. Care to touch down?

I know you can't see us over the screen, but look at us, JJ. People, just like you.

It's confusing, but we're gonna work this out.

OK?

Jacob?

Er, Uh, ..... Paganplace,

'Pigs' is a metaphor. I did not mean to call anyone a rather ugly but very tasty four-legged beastie. The whole idea is not to waste one's time trying to persuade people who cannot be persuaded. But that does not discount putting forth one's own ideas, as you wisely said. And I am not about to try to end your world. I suspect you would be welcome in my house any time.

Thanks, Pilgrim, but before you start saying 'pearls before swine,' you've got to think of em as a 'pig' (in a bad way.)

I have to admit you can waste a lot of effort, that way, but. we are not a religion of followers or sheep, or swine, or any other uncharitable metaphor.

Frankly, it's possible I think too much of people, ...the subject of my little chat with my Gods last night, in fact, but, hey. What I took away from it in my little head is that that's the very intractable stupidity they most love me for.

And, yes, this is more about me than Them.

But it's as good as another way to get screwed in this world, I figure.

I think it's time to stop running scared about what someone else does 'damning' us and start living up to the potential that some people would freak out about and tear to ruins, while, of course, consolidating their wealth and theological absolutism in order to come out on top...

Some people would in fact much rather tear down most of our civilization and induce catastrophe and war, rather than accept the freedom that we, the people have built, and just been able to start both realizing the promise of, and taking responsibility for.

No one, not even the biggest, most 'transhuman' God you can imagine will hand it to us.

This is about people who would rather end our world than let us *try.*

*My* faith says, we can be agrarian any ol time.

Let's give the promise of *this* all our heart.

And don't chicken out.

Ain't about no pigs, that way.

It's about humans. It's about us.

To all of you Pagans:

As far as I can see, you are all a damned great bunch of people. My advice to dealing with the hatred and ignorance of 'Concerned' and 'Anonymous' (or JJ?):

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig."
- - - Lazarus Long

There's a little of the JJ we remember.

Lady's light on you, dude. I know it looks screwed-up, but we're actually all in this together. :)

Blessed be. :)

Happy SOLTICE today ALL!

Att: "Warm-Heart" Huggs n Kisses to All!

Happy Every Day!

"I" + "i" = LIFE/PHOTONS! A/k/a "OUR-BOOK of TRANSFINITY" , made in America!

Praise the HOLY-NO-MON Lord G-D Allah Isvara YWEH eponymous ECLAT + 'i'! Philosophy & the Ten Fiats of the NEW SONG awareness!

Tonka Shame!

I'll say this from experience, too, JJ, ...large athames are awkward in ritual, particularly private ritual. I used to make em. I got one around here somewhere, I could dust off. It was made for Renfaires, originally.

Not to say I can't wave one with the best of 'em, but, really.

Like anything involving tools, ...the more you know, the less you need.

Perhaps in the words of Rev. Elliott, we're being 'party poopers' for not being the plastic villians some Christians will try and tell everyone else we are?

From the very first line on that particular website:

"We are not evil. We don't harm or seduce people. We are not dangerous. We are ordinary people like you. We have families, jobs, hopes, and dreams. We are not a cult. This religion is not a joke. We are not what you think we are from looking at T.V. We are real. We laugh, we cry. We are serious. We have a sense of humor. You don't have to be afraid of us. We don't want to convert you. And please don't try to convert us. Just give us the same right we give you--to live in peace. We are much more similar to you than you think." Margot Adler

And Strom Thurmond knows SO much about Paganism. Not.

YES! Wiccan/Pagans worship with 9" Daggers acciording to an investigations:

Please read:

"During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing last week, Sen. Strom Thurmond, R-S.C., submitted a statement decrying Wicca, a nature-based faith, as irreligious and saying it should not be accommodated by the military.

"Army soldiers who consider themselves to be members of the Church of Wicca are carrying out their ceremonies at Fort Hood in Texas," Thurmond wrote. "The Wiccas practice witchcraft. At Fort Hood, they are permitted to build fires on Army property and perform their rituals involving fire, hooded robes, and nine inch daggers...."

Please See: What the Senoir Seanator was doing about it:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm

And to get a better feel or learn about the Pre-Apocalyptic PAGAN/WICCAN System (man made, NO POLY G-D's made) system, go:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

Thanka Shame!

"Question: Why do Pagans wear 9" inch Daggers???? Is it for Ritual Slaughter???"

No, JJ, we don't 'wear nine inch daggers.' Disingenuous of you to say.

We don't do 'ritual slaughter,' either, (that's a projection of yours) ... because we don't see sacrificial victims as Abrahamics do, ...as 'things' to be 'given' to a 'wrathful God' to 'appease' that God. In the Wiccan tradition where the athame is sometimes used, the 'Dagger' is called an 'athame' and it's a *tool* to representing Will and also the separation of worlds. It's almost always held to be *desanctified* if ever used for a mundane purpose, never mind killing anything.

(And if you'd ever actually lived on a farm and dispatched your own dinner, you'd have some idea what kind of folly it'd be to choose a double-edged knife for the purpose)

In Wicca, the Lady says *explicitly* that she demands nothing of sacrifice, for Her love is poured out on the Earth.

Any more defamation you'd like to perpetrate?

Anyway, Gaby, if you see what I mean. I don't think the universe *denies* a soul the right or possibility of 'being' male or female or whatever, ...all you have to do is learn *how.* And if you don't need *just one lifetime and/or race to Apocalypse to do it in,* you find you just don't need to get as hung-up on definitions as Christian society tells you you *need* to be.

To me, this doesn't involve the Lord and Lady, or even *any* God being defined by *our* squishy bits. Our squishy bits are one thing among many that can help us connect.

Dualism is more about *us* than Them. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it's not *everything.*

I'm bisexual in this life. I need no spiritual *excuse* to love my partner.

It just is. And blessed be.

Pagans hold that our souls and lives are about *learning,* and *improving,* not insisting on a single life that must be judged, or even an ongoing one that must be 'defined and justified.'

Sexuality, being dear to us and to-some-teachings mysterious and shameful, is often played upon for dominion by some, and challenging to some others of us.

The idea 'Everyone *should* be straight cause a God' says so, hardly makes sense if it takes all that slapping-around to maintain the *illusion* of universal heterosexuality, only with, of course, countless 'deviants' who must be 'disrupting the unity' by... not being that way.

Some will say, 'If everyone was gay, the species would end! Which would somehow mess with my Apocalypse where the world ends tomorrow, anyway!'

This usually misses or ignores the simple observation, 'Umm... You may be conflicted, yourself, but, clearly, everyone is *not* gay. Not even close.'

Which feeds back into this holiday 'controversy' ... In binary thinking, perhaps, 'Everyone not being Christian means no one is Christian! Gay people not losing their joint property when one dies with their partner shut away from visiting them on their deathbed, 'degrades my marriage!'

Kind of like some say, "If the holiday greeting of this time doesn't *mandatorily* include a reference to Christ, then 'PC' people are oppressing me!'

The JJ we remember, I always saw as a true visionary: a guy who'd experienced 'Big God,' ...right down to the shape of spacetime, the velocity C and other things that *are* the shape of the living universe.

Of course, like some humans will, he had to elaborate, ....start categorizing 'Eclati-On' vs 'Eclati-Off,' ....that's not just dualistic, that's *binary.* On-off. Like a digital thing.

Then of course, it gets down to labeling who and what is 'on' and 'off,' and next thing you know, penises are involved.

Humans and souls aren't binary, we're holographic. Fractal, even. Quantum. Right where Einstein got hung up about the 'Mind of God,' was where he couldn't accept *uncertainty and diversity*

No one ever said religion had to 'swing for the fences: 'Ultimate or nothing,' 'Always-right or nothing,'

This is where the Abrahamics are way behind us, or, maybe, way off the track and thinking they're ahead.

Whatever else can be said, the world's too cool to be that picky. As are the Gods. As is the Great Mother, as are *us.*

Spend your life staring at a 'bright light,' then curse the darkness when you can only see spots, that's what some end up saying.

Kind of a waste, but everything in its time.

We can do better right now, though.

Pagans have Multi Female Goddesses [Deity(s)] and many man Godds that OSORIS of AEGYPT & BAAL of SYRIA & Athenites & Romanitews & celticites & Nodicites & Hashimites & Canaanites ....!

All are SuperStupisStitious IMPORTED Religion that is 'POISON' and belongs to someone Pre-Apocalyptic dead folk!

Pagans worship "NECROLOGY" aka "Nec'Roman'ly' [Worship & speak with DEAD folk, Anscetors via 'hex's, Voodo like behavior & Shamona blends like! It's a Savage religion & Pagans are Big Mass Murderer's from times past!

PS: PAGANS/WICCANS are mostly Gay's & are a Front to connect INTERNATIONALLY [in Secret] with other Nations Pagans/Wiccans homosexuals Lesbian's.

VOTE: Abolish All Pre-Apocalyptic Imported Religions & their Copy cat one's too, in sweet Sweet U.S. of A.. and Be ,

yes, finally be all that you can be, once & forever , in TRUE 'mono Religion !!

Behold: The "HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH!" via the "O.U.R. Book of TRANSFINITY" , yes, & beyond!

May XTRA Photons (LIFE) shine on America's Bravest, Finest, Smartest, & heartiest, AND friendly's , whom are defending the Holy Cosmic REPUBLIC of Sweet sweet Momma Poppa SPACE SHIP PLANET EARTH. aka S.S. GAIA, aka S.S. TELLUS ngsomething , Ya Ya!

ALL JEW's are PAGAN worshippers & have POLY Deity Religion, also Christians, also Islamic, also Hindu's, also Buddhist's, et al!

So they , aka YOU-ALL, have a POLY (more than one) THEISTIC (Dety/Supernatural(s) Angel(s), hot & cold world(s), prodigal wingy thingy or Lightning throwing jins or G-ds etc..) Religion(s)!

You have zero genuine American Made, TRUE genuine MONO THEO PHILOSOPHY! Only ECLATi-On of the JOKTAN humate Race is come to be such and thus LIBERATE the WORLD from IT's Pre-Apocalyptic Dillussions!

We are come to destroy ALL Ancient Pre-Apocalyptic Religions not made in America!

Acsually we are going to DEPORT all of the foreing made in intervenors, like the VATICAN's Arch [Homosexual] Dioces Roam [un] Holy Catholic Church & dirivitives or copy cats or..., in all America 1st! do not be in denial!

You are mostly gay & love being troublemakers & Anti-American!! Move & take your Imported Pagan System back to it's Celtic & Anglo-Saxon origin, or like back to Aegypt, Greece, Rome, India, Persia minor & major, Tibet, African jungles or Indonesia or Malaysia etc..

Behold: The "OUR-BOT", aka

"O.ne U.niversal R.eligion Book of Transfinity" of the HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH!

Ah, LIFE [PHOTONS] is so beautifull with Eclati-On(s) & never with the OFF(s)!

Once "i" was a Caterpillar, but now "i" am a Butterfly"! Same as: Once "i" was lost but now "i" am a Found! Ya Ya!

Please Pagan's, stop running around naked in front of kid's of Strangers & neighbors & friends! Shame Shame.

Question: Why do Pagans wear 9" inch Daggers???? Is it for Ritual Slaughter???

"i" thought Aladin Lamp guys like Osama bin Ladin et al does!????

Hi, Gaby. I wouldn't say, certainly, that it's a common *Pagan* idea that souls are biologically-deterministic about sexual dimorphism: it's really probably nothing so mystical, causationwise. Like our nearest evolutionary cousins, and many other animals on Earth, there's a complex interplay of diverse sexuality already inherent to the species in the bodies and brains from at the very least, a young stage of early development... probably trying to cram everyone into a singular idea of 'Acceptable ways to be' is what causes all the discord and disharmony, not an idea 'Souls are really essentially biologically-male and female and any different sexuality means these are souls in the wrong body.'

We have a saying, 'She Changes Everything She Touches, And Everything She Touches, Changes.'

This has to do with a common Pagan idea of souls and rebirths in the first place: in the words of some Druids, the point of the progress of a soul is 'To experience life in all aspects...'

We're far more likely to say the point of being a queer woman is *to experience being a queer woman,* than to wonder, 'What went wrong according to Christian preconceptions of how humans are *supposed* to be, when humans are clearly *not* like this.

Wicca, for instance, appears to be *stridently* heterosexual, on the face of it, but why so many queer people in it? Cause there are many *shapes* of polarity, and, more than that, there's actually no Wiccan theological basis to say that just cause we may see the Lord and Lady as a straight couple, doesn't mean They don't have *gay kids, too.*

Some Pagans have long held that the soul is androgynous or hermaphroditic, as we would understand it from this point of view. I tend to say that these forms are in flux, and the essence of a soul is nothing so mundane.

Hi Lepi and Draco,

Good responses to Jacob's posts. I have no clue why he is so homophobic, especially since he believes in Eclat. Source one has no concept of sex and could care less. We believe that our "essence" (soul?) will always be inherently male or female.

My daughter believes in reincarnation and thinks that gay people are those whose essence is trapped in the wrong body. Sounds as logical an explanation as I've heard.

Best advice I can give you is to ignore him when he gets ugly. I know it's a hard thing to do when you feel personally attacked, but.....

Jacob, my friend, please at least try to be respectful if you can't be nice. OK????

MM, Draco: ....don't worry about JJ, there, he's obviously down to trolling for attention.

I'd disagree with the statement: "If your religion is non-Abrahamic, it's Pagan." ...Categorically, no, ...Buddhists don't consider themselves 'Pagan,' ....Hindu people also don't, partly cause that word in the old sense was used to marginalize them under the Raj, I think... Likewise with Confucians and most tribal people. The word's come to represent something a bit different; frankly I think our own diversity is big enough we don't need to define ourselves in terms of Abrahamics.

Besides, JJ there, incoherent as he always seems and often is, is referring to *some* form of Abrahamic religion, ...seems he's combined something he took from Mormon missionaries with what must once have been a substantial literacy.

I do suspect he just has no *filters* now, and absorbs even the hate and homophobia we see in places like this. He used to be very nice.

And for those who've been told what he's saying, no, while Pagans don't have big nudity-shame, no, we don't 'run around naked in front of kids.' That's just another slander we hear too often.

Yaknow, JJ?

"Are there heart-strings connected
To the poison coming out of your mouth?
Are you super-connected, now?" --Belly

Anonymous:
**Most Pagans/Wiccans are gay!**

And your source for this statistic is?

**Pagans run around naked in front of their friends & their own kids??**

Not all of us. Pagans do, however, tend to have a healthier perspective on nudity than the average person.
We don't go about exposing ourselves to strangers and we don't go skyclad around people who aren't comfortable with it. And we don't go around naked all the time, for goodness sakes.
We understand the difference between being comfortable in your own skin and impinging on other people's sense of modesty and privacy. I may conduct my private rituals skyclad, but I do wear clothing when it's appropriate.
And I certainly have no problem with my daughter seeing me naked, nor she does not feel uncomfortable undressing in front of me. And while neither her dad nor my husband have ever been the type to go au naturel, even around the house, she did walk in on her dad when he was bathing when she was small, so she's known what a penis was since she was four. She asked what "that" was, he told her it was called a penis and it was what boys and men used to pee, and asked her to please leave the bathroom, close the door, and let him finish his bath - no freaking out, no hysterics, just calm and matter-of-fact.
the other day, she got off work early, and when she came home, walked into my bedroom to find me and my husband enjoying a bit of afterglow. She said, "Oops. Sorry." and pulled our door shut behind her. No cries of "Ewwww!," no embarassment, just a matter-of-fact acknowledgement of the fact that her unexpected arrival did not necessitate our throwing on clothes and pretending that we don't do "that" anymore, while at the same time respecting the fact that my husband is much more modest than I am, especially where she is concerned.
This may come as a shock to you, but even after 17 years of seeing her mother in various stages of undress, she likes BOYS! And because she is no stranger to her own body, she knows how to make them look her in the eyes, instead of talking to her breasts.

Once again, Starhawk concisely sums it all up.

I continue in your ability to do so, Starhawk. Thank you.

Compare her good sense and clarity and inclusive humanity with the obfuscation and Christian-Supremist screeds of our friend Dr Willis Elliot.

Most Pagans/Wiccans are gay! Pagans run around naked in front of their friends & their own kids??

Anonymous, the things you have said have no facts to back them up. One: I'm Pagan and not gay so there goes that statement. Those who are gay are not gay because of their religion but because of their nature or choices or events in their lives. Two: so one Pagan and a few people agree that the
Abrahamic religions see themselves as the only true faith and kill all those that don't have the same beliefs, and because of this, want to abolish these religions. Ever hear of the Inqusition? There's a reason for the distrust and fear.

"2) They now revived a dead religion (Paganism/Shamanism) for a Local & International Organization for mostly their Celticites & Saxonites leaderships & other "Gay-Races" from abroad."

What the hell is a "Gay Race"? I would love to take you back in time so you could say to any Celt that their religion makes them have sex with members of the same gender.

Pagans don't care if you're straight or gay as long as you're not a jerk. The only reason that Pagans would have more gay followers is that we don't tell them they're going to burn in hell everyday like the Abrahamic faiths do. As far as the language and signs, just sit next to two guys that work in the IT department. Within five minutes you're wondering what country they're from.

When it comes to looking into other Pagan religions, it's because we are trying to find the faith that is right for us. Since we have had to hide our faith for centuries, thanks to eager-to-kill Christians, we have lost some of the traditions and history. We don't belive in one religion for all, we belive in following what your soul says to belive and accepting others and what they belive. If another religion starts trying to kill us we would have some hatred towards them, but we would still let them practice their faith without saying "oh that's wrong" or "the deity won't like that".

On another note, do you celebrate X-mas or Halloween? Those were Pagan holidays; X-mas was the winter solstice and Halloween was Samhain, a time for the spirits of those that died to visit with the living. Ancient Mexico and Native American faiths have a similar holiday, like the Day of the Dead in Mexico. Odd how faiths on opposite sides of the planet, that have no contact with each other have similar beliefs.

Before you post again do some research and make sure you use facts, not opinions.

P.S.
Aren't you supporting the creation of a non-Abrahamic religion, "O.U.R."? If your religion is non-Abrahamic, it's Pagan. Welcome to the club, bud!

"CHRIST MASS" & PAGAN WINTER SOLTICE HOLIDAYS in America;

These Publically accomodated 'IMPORTED-religious practices/rituals etc.., is illegal , in Sweet sweet U.S. of A.!

'XMAS' is a PUBLICALLY enforced as "Christmas" and XMAS through the Supreme Court of the UNITED STATES which , around 5th, March 1984,

during the Reagan/Bush Sr. Neo-Co's turned "Pro-PreApocalyptic religious" Chiefs, in a case called "LYNCH v. DONNELY" U.S.Sup. Ct. 465-668, THAT was 'Provoked' over a 'CRECH' , not 'GRINCH' ' & the slogan 'SEASON's GREETINGS" (manipulated self servingly, how cunning indeed) in Rhode island,

Ruled that their 'Judeo-Christian Underlings can go ahead and use PUBLIC PROPERTY [note; when give them an inch they want a mile later this is the crux] to stick "CHRIST-MASS" "Nativity Scenes Displays" in O.U.R. Faces! AND,

thus remind Us [APOCALYPTARIANS of the JOKTAN RACE] of their own 'Religious Jealousy Psychosis' [As Blogger FRED SANDERS above @ 9:56am so elegently real sais] and their SYMBOLIC CANNIBALISM through Mr. JESUS CHRIST is like the 'only' path to SALVATION [each makes their own, never via Jews or Pagans Hindu's etc..]

offered to this Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth, aka S.S. GAIA, aka S.S. TELLUSng something, by the JEALOUSY of that JESUS worshipped as 'G-D' in the 'First False Commandments' of the Rabbi Mythologist MOSES , saying himself via his PRE-APOCALYTIC mentality,

"Do not think that I will accuse you to the FATHER [in Heaven]; there is one that accuseth you, even Moses , in whom YE (a flat world & you) trust. For had Ye believed Mr. Moses, ye would have believed me, For HE (Moses) WROTE OF ME. But if ye shall not believe in 'HIS' Writings (Novels & stars therein & thereof) how shall ye believe 'MY' WORDS?."

Please see BIBLE , JOHN:5:45-47.

CHRISTIANS have been seasonally spreading their "Nativity-Movement" nationwide under that Court Decision. Rockafella Center is not enough for such IMPORTED Ritual & Worship ...! And

Now the Neo-Pagans aka Wiccans aka Witches Druids AND also the Neo-Kwanzas/Shamans/Voodoo's whom Both beliewve in 'TALKING TO DEAD' are an afront to the Governments recognition of such Imported Man-Made Pre-Apocalyptic Humate Systems.

Please "WARMHEART(s)" be advised that WE ECLATi-ON's (not OFF's) have no such 'FATHER' in a pre-Apocalyptic imagined HAVEN, HEATHENS (and killing for such or die for such) as advocated by the HELLENICS, Aegyptians, Baals, JU's, Christfollowers, Islamaholics, Hinoholics & Buddaholics etc.. advocated on Space-Ship Earth , because SOURCE-ONE is neither a 'HE' nor a 'SHE' but rather S*U*P*R*E*M*E* to bothe 'SEXES' FOREVER! SO;

O.U.R. [O.ne U.niversal R.eligion via our Book of TRANSFINITY (realitry)] so called 'EPONYMOUS-ECLAT + "i" = PHOTONS/LIFE is ABSOLUTELY fearless & thus not jealous Holy No Mon, AND,

THEREFORE; Divinely unjealous too of 'IT's' [Eclati] human worshippers and ALL other things & stuffs in TRANSFINITY.

Remember: The Apocalyptic definition of 'Jealousy' is the 'Fear of loosing what one wants for ITSELF exclusively."! AND;

"WARM-HEART(s" Please be advised Sistar(s), and Brethren(s) & Cyber Friend(s), that, ALL of TRANSFINITY (O.U.R. immortal Miracle LIFE/Photon essence form today, is not in biblical 'Sin' light ) belongs to SOURCE-ONE and there is NO power strong enough to take anything away from the EPONYMOUS ECLAT

[new name for the real MONO-GOD, not like all their POLY GOD(s) competing jealousy systems]

who's relationship to EVERYTHING in Transfinity ,hope you ALL are learning something, is exculsively S*U*P*R*E*M*E and cannot be successfully challenged by ANY AUTHORITY other than it's own forever.

Hark: This is the meaning of a "SUPREMACY OF A G_D" to Us, aka 'APOCALYPTARIANS' a.k.a "ECLATARIANS" whom are also becoming to be known as "EARTH-WISE" and 'SPACE-FORTH WISE'

[see Federal & State Court Cases, many many since 1963, as mentione you et al seq passim on 'onfaith' here & no where else]

as the APOCALYPTARIANS because they call & know this 'G-D' or 'PHOTO-FINITE-ESSENCE' of SOURCE-ONE , E*C*L*A*T"i". meaning "LET THERER BE PHOTONS", aka the "Holy Cosmic Feelers Faither's" FIAT-LUX! Note: Yes, WE Apocalyptarians are known as "HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH" , an Apocalyptic belief, that's like a religion, but Better since it is ZER Pre-Apocalyptic! This includes Wiccanism/Paganism et al whom are Imported not made in Good ole U.S. of A.! So;

Me WarmHeart(s), THIS Apocalyptic definition of 'Source-One' as Exclusively SUPREME to ALL-THINGS of ITS-STUFF , and THEREFORE; Absolutely fearless & absolutely nonjealous G-d, since , as far as "ECLAT+i AWARENESS" Philosophy and as a NEW-SONG coming from all your olds, is conserned, there is NOTHING whatsoever that can dewprive 'IT' aka ITSELF (eponymous Lord Yaweh Allah Ishvara etc..) of anything IT wants for ITSELF, And Thus

give it the "D.A.B.D.A. JITTERS" , is the ULTIMATE G*O*D Concept behind the Eclati-On STABLE-DEFINITION-FACTOR of a NEW-AGE to take place through HUMATES of Space-Ship Earth as they SYNERGETICALLY PHASE-OUT the 'PRIVATE' and 'PUBLIC' violations of the 'NO' CLAUSES in the LAWs of their Nation(s) which are supposed-to-reduce to ZERO their AUTHORITY to erode such HUMATE-RIGHTS that cause such HUMATE WRONGS!

Note: ECLATARIANITY , aka APOCALYPTARIANITY , aka ECLATI-ONITY is ,BORN or genuinely made, only in AMERICA [not imported nor copy cat nor plagerized just Original] hence NEW YORK STATE is now the "HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH's" 'Cradle of Gridarian Democracy and Transfinite Civilization" for ushering in Healing of Nations & World Peace & more good tidings, via the AMERICAN ECLATi MOVEMENT, as Prophecied to ALL in ALL pre-apocalyptic Religions!

This Includes the religious & ZEUS Prophecy's & Promises of the ALEXANDER the GREATs Epochs, aka the SON of MAN's old pooftime Pagan day's of ancient lore as if religions.

remember: New York State is the 'Cradle Of Gridarian Democracy & Transfinite Civilization here on all SPACE-SHIP Momma Poppa ERTH, akaa S.S. GAIA, aka S.S. TELLUSING Something!

Behold: Throw away ALL your 'Imported' man made(zero G-D/ECLATi made) Pre-Apocalyptic ancient religions! They are rendered, to Eclati-On(s), not Off(s) as WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, aka WMD!

VOTE: Abolish ALL 'Imported' Not Made\Born In Sweet sweet America as RELIGIONS in Public &1st then Private 2nd step!

VOTE: Remove All 'Tax Ecempt' or 'Tax-Free' Status from all imported 'JUDEO-JU's & Judeo-Christian's & Judeo-Islamic's & Judeo-Hindu's & Judeo-Buddhists & Shammans & Pagans & all imported. not made in America Religions!

Uh-oh... JJ's off his meds again.

Pagans are all gays? Hmmm.... Some Pagans are gay. Some Christians are gay. Does that mean that all Christians are gay? A does not equal A.

Oh, and Jihadist - a blessed Eid to you and yours!

Frankly, Jacob, I don't like it at all when you spew hate. That is NOT Eclat-i-ON that is Eclat-i-OFF.

Shame on you!

Problem is all the 'gods' are nothing more than fantasy and the delusion of weak child-like minds.Anyone that believes this crap needs psychological help before their illness infest others.

"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."

-- George W. Bush to ABCNEWS, June, 1999

Please See: Witches in Combat Boots!

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm

Att: P R I V E R & Company;

1) Wiccan/Pagan/Neo-Druids (Celtic/Anglo/Nordic etc.) are in fact A mostly, Homosexual & Lesbian 'Cult' [

Pleasee see Attached P'ETITIONONLINE' link, complaining about Gay & Wiccan getting no-respect by America's majority???],

http://www.petitiononline.com/181214/petition.html

and now wiccan (a Gay religious Alternative) is a front, and besides Gay's, having a gay underworld language so to speaketh, not just in bathrooms , that WICCAN/PAGANS became an 'organized' front via their Pre-Apocalyptic Godesses & Godds & Polytheo Deity system(s) that is an Imported ancient practice.

2) Please see attached; "ABOLISH CHRISTIANITY' petition, where a WICCA/PAGAN

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?chaos33&301

an "Ordained Wicca Minister" at that, is Anti-Abrahamic Religions et al! He or her Hates those not of their own , whom do not practice Gayness & Witchcraft etc.." They are Closet people hiding behind a sham & HOAK's of a Pre-Apocalyptic SuperStupidStitious religious past!

Wiccans are Un American, just like the rest, Not Made in America. UN-AMERICAN, Just another imitation of an ancient export imported in America via mostly Gay folk whom have already stolen that beautifull american word 'GAY' (not sex thinking) since comming out of closets.!

VOTE: Abolish All Not Made in AMERICA religions!

Fact: It is illegal far ANY STATE [under U.S.A. Const. & Amend.] to uphold any foreign religion that are imported or patented of Copy righted from overseas or abroad! So;

ALL/EVERY/ANY of the Pagan/Wiccan & Derivatives of, or Judeo-Jews & Judeo-Christis counterparts, Judeo-Islamic, & Judeo-Hindu's & Judeo-Buddhists & Derivitives are Imported Religion(s), Belief(s) or Faith(s) SYSTEMS.

NOT MADE IN AMERICA period!!!!!!!

1) They hijacked the word "GAY" (during the American late 1950's & 1960's) and turned it to a Same-Sex' word today instead.

2) They now revived a dead religion (Paganism/Shamanism) for a Local & International Organization for mostly their Celticites & Saxonites leaderships & other "Gay-Races" from abroad.

3) They Speak their own language in Public & Private and or have secretive 'signals' too.

4) Wiccans/Paggans, are plagerizing other non-pagan/Wiccans Philosophy's & trying to pass them to the FEDERAL COURTS as if they really be 'Authentic' philosophy or way of like! Theres more!

"Times have changed..."

Thanks in no small part to Coca-Cola and a fledgling plutocracy. Consumerism is America's true religion.

*puts on tinfoil hat and looks around anxiously*

Still, that's no reason not to get jiggy under the mistletoe!

A Blessed Yule to you Starhawk...I thank the Gods for your forum here...and you. I also thank you for all you tried to do in New Orleans. Many Blessings.

Wiccan, I love Enchantress... Gypsy has a lovely voice and her music is beautiful. Priestess of the Pentacle was a wonderful tape.

Have you looked into Covenspace..it's myspace for Pagans...very nice.

The Moderate:
Christmas celebrations in 18th Century America had some similarities with but also many differences from the Christmas celebrations of today. Most surprising of the differences was that some of the New England Colonies actually had laws banning Christmas celebrations mostly due to the Puritan influence. But the Puritans were not alone in not celebrating Christmas; the Quakers, Presbyterians and Baptisms also avoided Christmas celebrations. A Massachusetts law sanctioned anyone who "is found observing, by abstinence from labor, feasting, or any other way, any such days as Christmas day . . . ." Such bans on Christmas continued well into the 19th Century.

Times have changed...

terra

LOL, copying JJ? That is an impossibility!!! Never did understand his gibberish and still don't.

Hmmm, and I thought you Pagans were never "accusatory".

Merry Reality!!!

A little salute and smile to Starhawk. :)

It means, Moderate, things don't break down quite like some people will have you believe. :)

In the words of Jackson Brown's beautiful song "The Rebel Jesus:
"In a world of hardship and of earthly toil,
We have need of anything that frees us,
So I bid you pleasure and I bid you cheer,
From a heathen and a Pagan,
On the side of the rebel Jesus!"

Blessings of the season to you all, and may the sun's return kindle hope, compassion, and renew our love for this beautiful world,
Starhawk

"I mean, don't you understand, The 'Moderate,' that a lot of the reason so many of us in America *love* the cultural holiday of Christmas *so much* is in fact because some Protestants in England tried to *ban* it as 'Too Pagan,' or 'Catholic Heathenry,' or otherwise insufficiently dour and mirthless for their mandatory public piety?"

No, I did not know that. Interesting bit of history, that is. I will check into that.

You and the Catholics, eh? Wonders never cease.

As to the rest of the post, I am not so sure you are actually talking to me.

MM, Wiccan! :) Yep, they've found *another* excuse to Pagan-bash out there.

I think actually, Terra, I'd class Wicca and Voodoo as further apart than that, like, the difference between, I dunno, Mormons and Buddhists or something. Different parts of the world, and all.

As for JJ turning all dark and nasty, who knows. Probably absorbed it from all the negativity here. I suspect he doesn't have much in the way of 'filters,' and we pretty much last saw 'Nice Happy Photon Guy' around when he claimed he was taking a 'sabbatical.' Could be some fragmentation going on there, or something: these last posts seem a lot more like CCNL trying to *imitate* JJ, anyway. Who knows or cares, with trolls.

JJ seems to think we're all gay or something.
Which would be a great shock to my husband. :)

Actually it took a FEDERAL case to decide that our veterans could be buried under their own symbol.

We are a nationally recognized federal religion, like it or not.

Blessed be!

Merry Meet, all!

Sorry I haven't been around lately; our Lady decided my life needed shaking up, and things haven't quite settled down yet. But I wanted to wish everyone a blessed Yule, or whatever your heart calls it. Come dance with me!

http://www.myspace.com/paganmusic5

"Bring Back the Light"

VOTE: ((( Peace Love Rockn Roll nRap Mitt_ROMNEY for Prez 08 YEA!. Thank You ALL. ))))))))))

Read me Lips PAGAN's , aka Wiccan aka Witches [black & white magic thinkers or both types] our President BUSH sais ,

"Paganism is not a Religion.."! again,

"Paganism is not a Religion.."!

FACT: Paganism , NEO or not, is an IMPORTED ancient 'State Sponsored' Religion(s)!

THEREFORE: Your 'Pagan' or 'Wiccan' et al, Pre-Apocalyptic imported Religion ,in Sweet Sweet America, is not made in America!

It is in fact Imported from Greek or ROME & Mid Eastern & other Foriegn places! So;

You have no Rights ,except for those of your 'Local Court rules. [for a Time & only temporary not permanenet]! Paganism is not Absolute, just a priviledge! Because the Court(s) know that it is Imported forign made religion & they mostly all have Fronts for their foreign agents!

Paganism & Wiccanism Movement , and their adherants in recent OnReligion topics is 'infiltrated' this WAPO site.

PAGAN's are false & is in fact a Copy Cat of the Old muderous System, no matter how peacefull they proclaim to be!

IT's ALL A FRONT TO US APOCALYPTARIANS, you dig or no dig Paganism's???? Ya Ya!

I would reaslly like to have a managers delete button...bye bye J.(anon).

What happened to you..you went from slightly ditsy but kind to hateful.

I think we all have enough crap in our lives, we do not need more..so give it a break and go heal thy self.
terra

CCNL,
Does belittleing others make you feel big?

You belong to a tribe...those who hate, those who fear those that are different. That is a group..a membership. You belong.
I am a member of a tribe..a circle within a circle.

Oh and Witchcraft/Wicca is different from VooDoo...about like Mormon is different from Catholic.

We are a religion..a protected religion with our own gods and our own set of doctrines, laws and myths...

The Civil rights Act of 1964 states "To be a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII, a belief must be sincerely held, and within the believer's own scheme of things religious." (USCA Const. Amend 1: Civil Rights Act 1964 701 et seq., 717 as amended 42 USCA 2000-16)

The District Court of Virginia declared in 1985 (Dettmer v Landon, 617 F Suup 592 [E. Dst. Va.]) that Wicca is "clearly a religion for First Amendment purposes....Members of the Church sincerely adhere to a fairly complex set of doctrines relating to the spiritual aspect of their lives, and in doing so they have 'ultimate concerns' in much the same way as followers of more accepted religions. Their ceremonies and leadership structure, their rather elaborate set of articulated doctrine, their belief in the concept of another world, and their broad concern for improving the quality of life for others gives them at least some facial similarity to other more widely recognized religions." This was a landmark case.

This was also one case among many.
Concerned..we do not belittle your beliefs or anyones. We also do not stand still for being made less then others..we deserve better. So do our Gods.

Goddess Bless,
Merry Christmas,
terra

Att: ALL Pagans, in Sweet sweet America,

go back to your Ancient PAGON [Neo=Pagan's too] Home or Pantheon in GREECE or ROME or AEGYPT or PERSIA or HINDU KUSH or FAR EAST or NORDIC PLAINS or AFRICA MAJOR!

Pagans are a SupereStupidStitious Celtic Saxon bullakrapa makebelieve religion, as a FRONT FOR GAYS!

American Pagans are Lesbians & Homosexuals most of the Times! Ya Ya! So take your religion based on 'sexual expoitation' back to Calligulla & Greek child to man warrior mentor love days!

Sky hawk, et al, you folks are playin American's!

Anyway, most-recent-Anonymous, I certainly hope to see more tolerance and civility, especially about the holiday season. It pains me to see it become yet another source of religious intolerance. particularly when the cultural traditions of our nation *are* so diverse in origin.

It seems to me that historically, many of the trappings and traditions of the secular holiday have long offended certain Christians *because* they are secular, and multicultural, even if to them, the *occasion* refers to their Jesus.
I think some of the difficulties fitting the Northern European aspects of holiday in with the traditions of a 'desert God' has always seemed a little uneasy on the religious end: an internal conflict that perhaps is externalized onto religious minorities by trying to place overtly religious iconography in the public square while excluding all others: it now seems to have morphed into an idea that secular people are 'stealing' the holidays by either showing diversity or not turning it into a religious-political exclusion of others.

Really, I think the holiday season *should* be a time when we're *most* able to show tolerance and civility, and come together as a nature.

People trying to 'put the Christ back into' a Christmas tree or a Yule wreath, or the strings of lights and all the rest, I think, are trying to put something in that was never really *there.*

I think they were *always* a celebration of the season, and the season applies to many traditions.

Abolish, in Sweet Sweet U.S.A. ALL, EVERY & ANY impoted 'Greek & Roman' and all other 'Tribal' and thus Pre-Apocalyptic "State Sponsored Religions"!

Good bye VATICAN, good bye JERUSALEM, Goodbye HELLENISTs, good Bye MECCA, good bye KEMETISM, good bye MITHRAism, et al!

Vote: Revove ALL 'Tax Exempt' status to ALL Impoted, NOT MADE (born) IN AMERICA REligions now!

Thank You!

As per many NT exegetes to include Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists, there is "No Historic Reason for the Season".

There was no Virgin birth. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

And there was no Star of Bethlem. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/369_Star_of_Revelation

excerpts:

"Gerd Lüdemann

Commenting on the infancy narratives overall, Luedemann [Jesus, 124-29] concludes that Luke and Matthew represent "two equally unhistorical narratives." He cites the occurrence of a miraculous heavenly sign at key points in the life of Mithridates VI in a history written by Justinus (active in the reign of Augustus, 2 BCE to 14 CE). "

"John P. Meier

Meier [Marginal Jew I,211ff and 376] considers these traditions to be "largely products of early Christian reflection on the salvific meaning of Jesus in the light of OT prophecies" and concludes that their historicity is "highly questionable."

So nativity scenes on government property in the UK or the USA or wherever are basic representations of fiction and are equivalent to having representations of Santa Claus and his reindeer and/or Yule trees. No harm, no foul!!

And Merry Reality to All!!!

Well, Concerned, I think that's about enough explanation for you, since obviously all you want to do is mock and make 'accusations' of some kind in the first place. Ba'al as known to Christians as some demonic figure isn't part of modern Paganism, largely *because* just about the only accounts extant of that deity are by way of vilifying the followers (In the case of the state cult at Carthage, this may be well -justified,) but, the name's usually seen more as a character from *Christian and Jewish * myth and demonology.

As Mad mentioned, there are possible linguistic connections, and the name was in fact applied to *many* groups' patron Gods, in that region, and certainly we don't rely on a 'fictional account' of that figure, as you seem to be trying to accuse.

I'm not even sure, *myself,* any 'fictional accounts' of that God's doings are even *extant,* never mind being central to Paganism in general.

Again, you seem to be referring to someone else's stories *about* us, to make some vague accusation or something.

Dear Pagan Place,

"We're not scrooges."

I agree. Good post, generally. I didn't think Pagans are against christmas. My point is that more tolerance, acceptance, and understanding is better than less. Don't take that as a personal aspersion. I really don't mean it that way.

Basically, we can fix the over doing of Christmas by sharing the other traditions more, or by celebrating Christmas less. I know which I would rather see happen.

BTW, I looked up the Pentacle use at the National Cemetery. It is now in place there, though it did take law suits to get it to happen. Progress is possible, but society is slow to change an you have to continue advocating your positions, as you do. Your free exercise rights are guaranteed under the Constitution, and I think that people will can eventually be brought around to accept that.

I found a neat web site called The Pluralism Project hosted at Harvard University. If you haven't already gone there it is worth a look. They do list "Paganism" as one of "America's Religions". Maybe they need to have a Starhawk page. Or maybe you could recommend other sources of information to them.

Meanwhile, historically, religions require apologetics in order to gain broader acceptance. I think the M. Starhawk is doing good works in that and I look forward to more.

Happy solstice.

Mad Love,

Apparently you missed the latest news about The Jihadist. She "has gone" Christian as she finally entered the Five Step Program to Deflaw Islam and the koran. In so doing, she found and embraced The Beatitudes.

Ba'al was a Canaanite word that meant "Lord". It was a common title for any number of the tribal Gods of the region. The Jews even used the title for Yahweh for a time, although they eventually stopped and began equating the term with other "false"(i.e. competing) gods.

In its widest definition ‘pagan’ has been used by Christians to describe everything non- Christian. As you can imagine there is a whole lot of stuff that can get caught up in a net cast that wide.

As far as whether Paganism is an unbroken tradition or a restored tradition, that’s a can of worms right there. I can see both sides of the debate, but don’t really care one way or the other. Although, if you’re REALLY interested I’d be happy to give you my opinions on the subject. However, it looks to me like you’re just trolling.

But tell me, CCNL, why harass the Pagans when there is a Caliphate of Radical Islamists hiding under your bed waiting to cut your head off? Or had you forgotten?

And then there was Baal!!!! All hail the almighty Baal!!!

Hmmm, current Pagans are not related to the ancient Pagans?

Hmmm, I pagan. Me belong to tribe. She belong Nature. He belong to Tree. They no understand us. We smoke the weed of mumbo jumbo and VooDoo. Ahh, me feel good.

It was almost as if there was a point in there, somewhere.

I'm still not sure what he was on about that he had to cross-post to every thread on the board about it in the first place. Gods.

And you're not going to find many modern Pagans mistaking their myths for literal truths either, CCNL. Not that I'm sure of what your point might have been, or if that has anything to do with it.

This isn't to say we don't have 'spooky' stuff of our *own,* Concerned, but whatever point you were trying to make about equating our religion with 'fictional accounts' presented as historical in the Christian mode just don't apply. Not to the holidays, anyway.

The holidays are just holidays. :) Myth isn't a dirty word to us. We have them, but you've failed to even name one by which you make ...whatever accusation you had in mind in the first place.

Forget about it. You don't know.

Though, Concerned, in detail:

"Hmmm, let us see, ghosts,"

Not as Christians defined and know and fear them, no.

"ghouls,"

Arabic.

" vampires,"

Eastern European Christian.

"witches"

Yeees? :) No, really, the Christian association of Samhain with witches is generated by them.

"et al- pagan fictional characters are they not? "

Name one in a Pagan context.

Oh, missed you there, Concerned.

I *asked* you to *cite one fictional account Pagans refer to, (in this case on Samhain) * such as you mentioned.

You now refer to a bunch of things Christians *associate* with Pagans, but still have not produced a 'fictional account.'

Especially not one presented as 'historical.'

So, your basis for what you've been spamming the threads irrelevantly with, again?

Besides, Moderate. Christmas is the murder, suicide, and assault capitol of the Christian calendar. I figure Santa can take it. :)

I mean, don't you understand, The 'Moderate,' that a lot of the reason so many of us in America *love* the cultural holiday of Christmas *so much* is in fact because some Protestants in England tried to *ban* it as 'Too Pagan,' or 'Catholic Heathenry,' or otherwise insufficiently dour and mirthless for their mandatory public piety?

These same people who just a few years ago were accusing *Pagans* of inventing Santa Claus and *forcing* people to buy, buy buy, (like they actually demand in political office) ...are now trying to portray *us* as the scrooges for, say, when being *asked to,* participating in interfaith displays, only to have those displays vandalized by Christians, thus resulting in the mayor of Green Bay decrying 'Witchcraft' an taking all displays but the Christian one *down?*

Now, this reversal happened in the space of one year, they accuse *us* of trying to *take away* all that stuff by... ummm... not hiding enough.

Seriously, 'Moderate.'

It's not multiculturalism or 'PC' that makes people flip out at Santa Claus. Christians were burning him in effigy, not too long ago.

And, frankly, for *you* it's become some externalization of the conflict between your 'God-ordained' capitalism and your pious hatred of fun and the foreign.

Me, I'll be saying 'Wassail' with the Heathens, come Yule.

It's not that *Mother-lovin-*hard,** Moderate.

And, Hi, J. Season's Greetings to you, too. :)

Hmmm, I noted: "Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed days of Halloween etc.

Hmmm, let us see, ghosts, ghouls, vampires, witches et al- pagan fictional characters are they not? And accounts of said myths arise/celebrated each Halloween, are they not? And I believe pagan fictional characters like Baal are also remembered by some pagans on Halloween, are they not?

The Moderate, a lot of *Christians* hate Christmas.

Until a few years ago, some Christians hated Christmas so much they were blaming the *Pagans* for it. Now they say we want to take the candy-canes you flagellate yourselves over away.

Pagans don't 'hate Christmas.' As a matter of fact, it's the radical Christians, as *always* *manufacturing enemies* *about* the fact that radical Christians have trouble understanding their own holiday, that means they come gunning for others and trying to use the whole thing as an excuse to claim *more* government power.

We're not scrooges.

Really. We don't own the malls, or the Muzak machines, or the family issues, or any of the other stuff that makes Christians *nuts* this time of year, lately.

That's all *you.* Really.

Thanks and Blessed be you as well during this solstice, J. :)

Dear Pagan Place,

Regarding: "this illusory 'War On Christmas' that the Religious Right likes to claim is happening."

Recently in my neighborhood a truck with a Santa riding on it was greeted by an intolerant fellow who shouted "F&%! Christmas" "Jam Christmas up your !#%!" "I hate your Christmas." at the top of his lungs. I don't care much for that. I saw this personally, so it it not a UFO report by my neighbors.

I think the right solution seeing and hearing more of other holidays. More tolerance and acceptance, not less.

Happy Saturnalia, y'all.

Merry Christmas, y'all.

Happy Hanukkah, y'all.

Happy Winter Solstice, y'all.

Happy Kwanzaa, y'all.

The rebirth of sunshine is upon us.

If you would be so kind as to help me with it, Madame J, what would be an appropriate greeting to a Moslem at this time.

May joy be with all y'all.

Madame Starhawk,

You stated: "Let’s keep our celebrations respectful of the multiplicity of approaches to religion and faith that make us a rich, diverse, and free society."

Can't argue with that.

I'm not sure of festivity celebration greetings for Pagan/Wiccans, so I'm stealing it from Athena:

Best Wishes for a Blessed Solstice to you and yours.

The same to Athena, Paganplace, Lepidopteryx, Terra Gazelle, Priver, Wiccan and
Happy, Happy, Holidays.

Thank you and best regards

"J"

Terra,
I'm still hoping (wanting, needing, dying) to make PSG - at the moment, we're trying to recoup the three months' rent we had to put into car repairs last month, but I;m planning to put some aside out of my tax refund after my daughter's graduation gift and some bill catching up. PP, my tent sleeps two - you can bunk with me.

Gee, I don't know, about PSG actually, Terra: it's remotely possible next year, but it's gonna be a crazy and likely-stressful and exhausting spring on the mundane front. Health, money, travel, (and replacement of camping stuff, apparently) and scheduling will all have to come together for me to manage it. But, Gods, I could use a week out of the mainstream world. :)

Nope, not going to PSG. I'm planning on attending the Chesapeake Pagan Community's gathering this July. I'm not one for tent camping, and Ramblewood has cabins.

Paganplace,
Last week a car just happened to run into a Yule Pentacle that was put up along with other religious symbols...I am sure the driver was one of those Christians screaming discrimination because a washer size rock with the 10 commandments was not allowed in the court house. Or hated the thought of Pagan soldiers lieing under their own religious symbol next to those more worthy Christian soldiers.

Now a simple Yule wreath is damaged by another inclusive Christian...ahem...So instead of saying ok folks these are Americans and according to the Constitution they have as much right as you to share in the public square..so it's everybody or nobody. Deal with it!
No... they will not put the majority religion in it's place as one of many..they will pack up their toys and protect the feelings of those who destroy what they do not like. They need arrested and thrown in jail.

Selena Fox is a smart Witch, she helped win The Quest, she will deal with this.

Pagans...(talking about Selena Fox)any of you going to PSG? I am and hope to meet you there. I know you plan to Lepi...meet ya at Caffina's.

terra

CCNL,
You are quoteing lies told about us..where exactly is our fictional accounts of our celebration of Samhain?

I am waiting...read up on your Jack Chick tracts..

terra

What they heck are you on about, CCNL?

On what basis do you refer to lies about us to tell us that we believe, CCNL? You keep saying we 'refer to fictional accounts' in some way that is important for you to criticize, but still apparently can't cite any of these said 'fictional accounts, ' so you dig up some myths *about* us.

You claimed, we rely somehow on 'fictional accounts.' Name one.

Not others' fictional accounts *about* us.

Ahem.

And, in other news, it sounds like the intrepid mayor of Green Bay has put a 'moratorium' on city hall displays, (after everything but the Christian Nativity was torn down or not put up.... convenient, no? ...and threw in a comment about how if he 'knew what a Wiccan pentacle was,' (ie, no doubt, if he had known the Christians would call it 'supporting witchcraft') he would have discriminated.)

What a guy. Now, looky, looky. Public Nativity scene, no other religious displayes. Who'd have *ever* expected that.

If we consider nativity scenes as just more fictional and/or embellished accounts about good people and myths (e.g. Santa Clause and his elves, Gabriel, Moroni et al), "do no harm to such scenes" or to the associated commentary. Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed days of Halloween etc.

from: http://members.tripod.com/~TaraMiller/halloween.html

"Halloween: The Pagan Festival of Samhain

Paganism, and Druidry especially, recognise eight feasts durring the yearly cycle or the Eight Fold Year. These celebrations are based upon a deep and mysterious connection between our individual lives and the source of this planet’s life. Like any other religious ocassion, these Pagan holidays are marked by special observances.

The most popular festival, in ancient times as well as modern Pagan society, is Samhain or Samhuinn, (pronounced Sou’in) the Celtic new year.

Halloween Myths

1) The pumpkin God, Samhain ( pronounced Sam’hane) DOES NOT exist.

2) Pagans DO NOT sacrifice babies or animals on Halloween. The Wiccan Rede states "Do what thou wilst, but harm none."

3) Pagans DO NOT worship the Devil or Satan on Halloween.

4) PAGANS ARE NOT SATANISTS.

These myths have been perpetuated by people who have seen too many horror movies and the Christian idea of horrific and mythical forms of Satanism. "

And contemporary Wiccans note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

"Also, some Wiccans feel that the tradition is offensive to "real witches" for promoting stereotypical caricatures of "wicked witches".[45] However, other Neopagans, perhaps most of them, see it as a harmless holiday in which some of the old traditions are celebrated by the mainstream culture, albeit in a different manner."

What I meant to say there is that 'Christmas' as we know it always *has* been multicultural. Why not admit it.

Well, I think you can look at things as 'PC sanitization,' or really, bring your own spirit of celebration, Steve. I mean, really, who doesn't like Christmas, anyway, do you really need to shout CHRISTmas OR ELSE!?"

At least as Pagans, and Heathens, really, a lot of the other names of the holiday are actually something we have in common. Wreaths? Holly? (even the stars that are suitable for the tops of Christian trees but suitable only for trashing or backing over if a Pagan puts em up near a creche... Can't help but think of the 'magi,' there....) These have religious meanings to us that may be mere folklore to Christians, just as the story of Jesus and the wise men and all that are just folklore to *us.*

Just like Christians got candles, Jews got candles, Kwanzaa has candles, if I recall correctly, ...wassail and Yule logs and juvenalia and singing and vigils, ...radical Christians seem to like to feel the multiculturalism is an 'attack on Christmas.'

I got news for them: It always has been. Since before Christianity came.

What's so bad about that?

I think of all holidays, this one should be able to absorb at least *that* much of the dreaded multiculturalism.

I mean, okay, the UK were the ones to come up with PC-nightmare "Winterval" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterval) and that WAS silly... but at least it highlighted the way that plenty of other festivals are going on too.

Eid Al-Adha is at the end of December this year, for example.

Yeah, we're already getting "War on Christmas" and "orgy of consumerism" over here. Next to stories saying how everyone is in debt and not spending enough this christmas, so the shops are all panicking and starting January sales early. I think there's irony in there somewhere.

Hee, it's a good one, Steve.

Unfortunately, over here this 'Put the Christ In Christmas' thing, this illusory 'War On Christmas' that the Religious Right likes to claim is happening, (so they can claim it's 'defense' when they attack others) ...has become just another code for 'Claim the United States For Only Christians and Exclude All Others.'

It's not like those guys are short of real estate or anything. :)

Steve B,

Your celebration sounds like ours.

Mu parents are Baptist, my sister and b-i-l are Catholic. I am Pagan/UU, my husband is Mahikari, and my daughter is agnostic.
I have my private ritual that I perform for the Solstice, and I attend the Sosltice service at the UU church as well. My daughter and my husband don't participate in my ritual, but they do make sure that I am not interrupted, which is a gift in itself.
We attend the Christmas Eve service at the UU church - I'm a sucker for candlelight services - or if one or both of my sister's progeny are in the Christmas play at her church, we will go see it.
We exchange gifts with my family either Dec 24 or 25, depending on my b-i-l's work schedule. I'd be doing decorating and gifting anyway because it's part of my Pagan tradition, so I see the celebration with my family as simply an expansion of my own. My husband and daughter simply see it as time set aside to express love and appreciation for other people whose presence in their lives is a gift.
And now that my mom has stopped trying to convert me, things are a lot easier.

Starhawk,
Great article, as always.

Steve B, UK:
Well, I am Christian, but I got a great laugh out of your post, thanks. Christmas is not my thing, Holy Week and Easter are. Anyway, I too am sick of the endless Christmas Carols, and the great economic orgasm that Christmas has mutated into. And I don't want it stuffed down my throat, I'm already Christian, damnit!

Happy Holidays, Blessed Solstice, Great Chaunika, or whatever is appropriate!

Starhawk!!!!
What a Radical Suggestion!!!!

You mean we should actually follow the constitution of the United States in the United States?

Don't tell the current administration that.

BTW
the Harvard Law School is remodeling, and they are doing away with their Constitutional Law department, cuz no one cares about it anymore.

I've seen some commenters seriously underestimate the extent that Christianity is the 'public' faith in the UK. We have Bishops getting (unelected) votes in government - think about that in the US for a minute.

Christmas is so big and unavoidable that it's very much a secular festival too - atheists still value people having "the christmas spirit" and look forward to a family celebration to mark the dark months. As Starhawk points out, what would be nice is if non-christians could avoid having the religious side of Christmas thrust at them... but that's often difficult. It's one thing to have Christmas signs up all over town in the US where 80% of the public are Christian, but it would make people stop and think if the religious side was pushed that hard by any other faith.

What staggers me is the "War on christmas" panic that we might somehow forget "what Christmas is all about". Are you kidding?! Carol singers on my doorstep might as well be asking if I've heard the Good News:

"O COME, LET US ADORE HIM, CHRIST THE LORD!"
Well, okay, but some of us-
"THE LITTLE LORD JESUS, LAID DOWN HIS SWEET HEAD..."
Look, it's nice and traditional but-
"REMEMBER, CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR, WAS BORN ON CHRISTMAS DAY!"
Erm...
"TO SAVE US ALL FROM SATAN'S POWER"
Yeah, thanks. Guess I'm going to the hot place.
"CHRIST IS BORN IN BETHLEHEM!"
Look, I appreciate the sentiment, but-
"MARY WAS THAT MOTHER MILD, JESUS CHRIST, HER LITTLE CHILD!"
Look, I was raised Catholic. I *know* the story, dude-
"BORN IS THE KING OF ISRAEL!"
*Sigh* Well, at least us pagans have still got the Holly and the Ivy.
"AND MARY BORE SWEET JESUS CHRIST, TO BE OUR SWEET SAVIOUR!"
Oh, shut up.

I know that Christmas is a traditional seasonal festival and very few people approach it as an opportunity to preach (especially in the UK where most people celebrating it are not religious christians) but do you REALLY think there's any chance we're going to forget that this is the date the Roman Church picked to put Jesus' birthday on (even when they know it wasn't)? As much as consumerism is taking over, there's really no threat of people not knowing the message.

So is the PC-ness daft? Well, even after what I've said... yes it is daft.

I was putting up "Happy Christmas" decorations in the office, and I realised that between the atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Pagans and a Buddhist, much less than 50% of the workers would be celebrating it religiously. What counts though is that practically *none* of them mind being wished a Merry Christmas - it's a perfectly traditional annual thing, and doesn't imply "our religion is true, Jesus was born, so yours mustn't be".

And the amount of Yule logs, Holly wreaths and other symbols nicely compatible with neopaganism that I've seen around this year make it very cheering anyway.

I was also raised in an observant Jewish household and now find my spiritual home in both Pagan and Unitarian Universalist worship. I plan to begin lighting my menorah on the Solstice, as I have done for many years. Each candle reminds me of the almost imperceptable increase in daylight following the longest night.

But it is a private ritual for my partner, our son and me. I do not want or expect public space or funding for a display outside of town hall. I do not want it assumed that I celebrate the majority holiday, and less do I want to be judged as misguided (or worse) because Christmas has no personal meaning for me.

Thank you, Starhawk, for a wonderfully concise and inclusive opinion. Blessed Solstice to you and yours.