Two Legs of the Monster

i am a forty year old woman.In my forty years, i have never felt: perceived or dicerned being discriminated against because of gender.i am also black, and yes, i have felt, perceived and discerned racism.
The point i think that is often overlooked is this; God is the head of Jesus, Jesus is the head of man, Man is the head of woman there is order.
When we look for validation outside of Jesus Christ we then began to put names and tittles to circumstances that can only be fixed through our creator God { Jesus }. We are validated as women, we are validated as a people,{black}, we are equal the moment we come from the womb.
What we fight for is rights. Men and women are different, whose ideal was it to treat them the same?

this is why i am a pagan. starhawk's explanation here of how the split between mind/body, nature/culture, and spirit/world is right on and it is the profound act of violence we experience in western culture. trying to split gender/race just furthers this divide and i'm so grateful starhawk didn't buy into the false choice the question presents. thank you!

Didn't read all the way down, Arminius, but, actually, it's not too too bad, at least just yet.

The way those conversations get, though, yikes. I'm often kind of glad I *don't* have a personal emotional stake in that place in particular.

Well, thank the Gods you came out of that OK, Antaeus. Spring comes late, here, but it's starting to feel like that may just possibly have been my last big shoveling day. :)

Seems like everyone's having a busy spring... I'm having times that at least for me count as crazy-busy. Trying to plug away at getting a lot done without overdoing it, get things done without skimping too much on the rest, ...and with a whole lot of badly-timed interruptions and uncertainties upon the resolution of which much depends, this definitely counts as me 'all stressed out.'

Speaking of calling on more masculine powers, which seems to be my habit under situations like this. :)

And hi, everyone, seems everyone's been posting while I was pecking at this post and running all over the house. :)

Uh, oh, Arminius. I have to admit that Israel just isn't one of my favorite topics...

All,

Starhawk has a new essay - this one on Israel. Check out the upper right hand corner on the screen. The comments show signs of developing into a firestorm.

Arminius

Wiccan,

MM, my friend!

My daughter and her bf are settled in quite nicely, and already adding to their menagerie - a week after moving in, they adopted a stray cat that invited himself in.

They released my husband from the hospital Saturday. His liver is shot - from now on, it's a low-fat diet and no alcohol for him. They can't make it any better, but we can keep it from getting any worse.
He's weak and tires easily right now, but is slowly getting his strength back.

Thanks to family and outlaw gilfriends, we got moved this weekend, and are now trying to figure out which boxes contain underwear and which ones contain flatware.

Sunday night, one of our cats got out and somehow got herself stranded on a neighbor's roof. So at 9:30 at night, after working my butt off all day, I'm crab-walking on a fairly steeply pitched roof, trying to catch one very freaked-out, dark-colored kitty who darts to the other side of the roof every time I get close to her. I finally caught her, crab-walked using one arm while clutching her tightly to me with the other, and managed to hand her down to the neighbor who held her while I climbed down.

MM, Antaeus and Lepidopteryx, and Blessed Be to both! Antaeus, I'd still be shaking too hard to type if that had been me.

Lep, how are you doing with that mountain on your plate? Are your daughter and boyfriend settled in, and is your husband doing better? Such a man as he is a treasure. :-)

Mercy! I leave for a few days, and there's all kinds of new developments when I come back!

PP and Arminius, you really must stop - you're adding to my list of "history I need to read up on when I have time but I never have time."

One of the things that I admire about Catholic education is that everyone is expected to know the basic history of the Church. Growing up Protestant, I never got that, and discovering Paganism as an adult, there's SO much history regarding my chosen religion that I'm only superficially familiar with.

I told my husband that at some point this summer, I'm taking what vacation days I have left, putting a chaise out in the back yard, and spending several days doing nothing but lying in the sun with some of those books that I've been wanting to read. He says he'll bring me lemonade and put sunscreen on my back.

Well, I've been busy as all get out, what with two jobs and all. I suppose the most exciting thing to happen in the past couple of months was the brakes in the piece of crap van the company gave me for my recycling job failed just as I was approaching the stoplight for one of the busiest intersections in the city. The only thing I could do was honk loudly and turn into oncomming traffic, then coast to a stop on a busy street. Other than that, I'm just anxious for spring to become sufficiently advanced to begin hauling the 160 house plants outside.

Antaeus!

There's one of our guys. :)

MMA! :) How have you been? :)

Robert Graves is neat. How far we've come since a copy of 'The White Goddess' and some Aunty Doreen was about what you had to work with. :)

He's much-dismissed on some of the scholarship, but speaking of inspiration. I was just packing away a book of his poetry, a lucky find.

*pulling it out.*

A bit that strikes me on this:

"...But should each be trapped singly
But for true-love's sake gulp down a jealousy
Of not having suffered, jointly....

Together, through a dark wood, trustfully."

:)

I've been following along most of the conversations the past few months, but usually everyone has been making most of the points I would have wanted to make, so with my _busy_ schedule I've just been reading along. But since we are sharing versions of the Charge of the God, in the coven I was in back in the nineties we used Amergin's Charm as the default God invocation. As any who have studied Graves'
"The White Goddess" know, there are many and various versions of this ancient poem, so the men in the coven went a bit further and each assembled our own favorite versions so it would be individualized to us. This is my favorite version:

I am a stag of seven tines.
Over the flooded world I am borne by the wind.
I fly like a griffon to my nest on the cliff.
I fall in tears like dew; I lie glittering.
I bloom amoung the loveliest flowers.
I am both the oak and the lightning that blasts it.

I embolden the spearmen.
I teach the counselors wisdom.
I inspire the poets.
I rove the hills like a ravenous boar.
I roar like the winter sea
And return again like the receding wave.
Who but myself can unfold the secret of the unhewn dolmen arch?

(and then all the coven together would recite the last verse)
I am the Womb of every holt.
I am the Blaze on every hill.
I am the Queen of every hive.
I am the the Shield to every head.
I am the Tomb of every hope.

In this version, the first twelve lines represent a month of the year, with the dolmen arch line representing the day between the years, Yule, when the Sun dies and is reborn. The final five lines represent the five phases of life, Birth Initiation Love Repose and Death.

Many Blessings to all on this thread.

I actually kind of relish the fact that, all attempts by the media to make it otherwise, this primary has been about one candidate I *really like* vs other candidates I, actually pretty much really liked or like, too. :)

MMA Terra, Wiccan,

Just wanted to say thanks for the charge of the God.. I'd not seen that before and it brought tears to my eyes. I'm leaving it cut and pasted for when my husband gets home.

And I certainly understand about needing to lay off the politics. It's such a nail-biter that whenever there's a primary I would get all hyped up and if it didn't go the way I wanted it to I'd come crashing down again. Not being able to deal with that roller coaster (that looks like it's STILL going on) frees up time for other things.

I'm so excited about the possibility of having a SMART president for once. It's about time.

Evohe!

You're all lucky I copped to not shaving my legs all the time: (Is it really just me? :) ) it seems to have left us some space to talk. :)

(Boo! :) )

I think, though, to be fair, how do you *talk* about 'The God' without someone being convinced it's proof-positive you're out in the woods every night giving Satan the GOP convention special? :)

You can talk *Goddess* cause they are a) kind of blindsided by it, and b) kind of hoping to keep appropriating that if any women get uppity... But still.

Terra! Everytime I read the Charge I feel so wild and free, like the way you feel when the wind whips up before the thunderstorm begins.

Io EVOHE Paganplace and Wiccan!

Wiccan I see we share taste in writings..LOL.

How have you all been? I miss you, I need to cool it with the politics for a while. But gee I am enchanted by Obama...can't help it he has the best smile..and smart too. ; )

terra

Oh Wiccan,

Warriors are a huge part of Wicca, each group has their gaurdian... We have Wiccans buried under military headstones, they were warriors..and honored greatly.More then this country they died for did.

When you believe in balance, protecting the weak and your homne is as neccessary as love and peace. The Charge of the Goddess says: let there be beauty and strength-power and compassion-honor and humility, mirth and reverence-within you.

The God says:
I take up the sacred quest and see it to the end. I, who stands within the darkness of light, am He who you call death. But I am also the spark of life, the joy of existence, the mirth in laughter, the shine across thine eyes. I am the consort, mate, and son of She whom we adore. I am the fruit upon the trees, the grain at harvest, He who offers himself up so others may live. I am He who leads you home. Strength and flame, heart and humor, life and death, these are my gifts unto thee.

In Wicca to be whole means to accept who you are... your humanity, your wholeness.

terra

Merry Meet, Terra! Scott Cunningham is one of my favorites.

I found this on the internet some time ago and put it in my Book of Shadows:

The Charge of the God

I am the fire within your heart, the yearning hunger within your soul. I am the Horned God, the hunter of beasts and pursuer of the fare of knowledge. I take up the sacred quest and see it to the end. I, who stand within the darkness of night, am He whom you call death. But I am also the spark of life, the joy of existence, the mirth in laughter, the shine across thine eyes. I am the consort, mate, and son of She whom we adore. I am the fruit upon the trees, the grain at harvest, He who offers himself up so others may live. I am He who leads you home. Strength and flame, heart and humor, life and death, these are my gifts unto thee. Call upon me in the forest wild and on the hilltop bare and seek me in darkness bright.

I am He who has been called Pan, Herne, Dianus, Osiris, Apollo, Lugh, Dionysus, and by many other names: and I call to thee. Come, dance and sing with the Lord of the Winds; come, laugh and love with the Sun King, for these are my worship. On gliding night wings it is I who lay you at the Mother's feet to be reborn and return again. I too lay within her womb, planted in summer seed to live on after my wintery death. I am the untamed wind, the raging river, the ocean crashing on the rocks, the fury of the storm and the passion in your heart. Seek me with courage or you will be swept away in your seeking.

Seek me with pride and humility, but seek me best of all with love and strength, for this is my path. Walk it with purpose and dance boldly. Hear my call on long nights and we shall stand together as one.

Io, Terra! :)

Call of the God
Scott Cunningham

I am the radiant King of the Heavens, flooding the earth with
warmth and encouraging the hidden seed of creation to burst forth
into manifestation. I lift my shining spear to light the lives of
all beings and daily pour forth my gold upon the Earth, putting to
flight the powers of darkness.

I am master of the beasts wild and free. I run with the swift stag
and soar as a sacred falcon against the shimmering sky. The
ancient woods and wild places emanate my powers, and the birds of
the air sing of my sanctity.

I am also the last harvest, offering up grain and fruits beneath
the sickle of time so that all may be nourished. For without
planting, there can be no harvest; without winter, no spring.

Worship me as the thousand-named Sun of creation, the spirit of the
horned stag in the wild, the endless harvest. See in the yearly
cycle of festivals, my birth, death and rebirth -- and know that
such is the destiny of all creation.

I am the spark of life, the radiant Sun, the giver of peace and
rest, and I send my rays of blessing to warm the hearts and
strengthen the minds of all.

terra

" wiccan:

You've got me wondering, PaganPlace. When I visit Wiccan sites, some are clearly biased towards the Goddess. Is this a reaction to the dominance of patriarchal religions?"

In part, yes. But also it has important meaning to see the Big, Big universe first and foremost as a Mother rather than even in half-part a 'lawgiver male personality.'

I'm very sensitive to words, (this much of a bardic lineage, I think I can do right by) ... and the simple fact is that in certain senses you just *can't* say 'God' without triggering certain very loaded, careful, and exhaustive conditioning all long-evolved to spin people's way of thinking back toward certain senses of fear, authority, repetition, and books.

And all the baggage within them.

The perception of the Goddess is important because *it's important.* We aren't here to make absolute and forever for the ages, ....that's what someone else says.

If we accept our own beliefs, we must trust in what we've found and have faith that it will change. It's not on us to make a 'perfect forever' set of words.

*"They" say the gender of 'The Ultimate' is some vital thing. We're polytheists. Such senses aren't even 'mandatory,' even if lying on dark, dark hillsides in the Berkshires feeling gravity till I remember I am *in* space makes me think 'Mother' on a scale I don't think we much touch on, here...

We are *not* squabbling about definitions of the Ultimate. his is important to remember. This is *not* a 'reaction' to what others say, it is...Something else. And it will need to be so for a while, I suppose.

We interact with 'smaller,' more specific aspects of the Lord and Lady for a *reason,* I think.

Because as much as we may like to think about 'big' things, it doesn't count for squat unless we *touch ordinary experience.

We are *not* obligated to swear our eternal souls to what we hope or insist is perfection. Only to *dance* with what connects us to the next thing.

In dealing with each other, we mustn't forget this. We believe in 'Balance,' we do not try to *enforce* it.

We don't have to.

We can see and feel.

(Please pardon if this double-posts. I think this one actually didn't go through. :) )

What a wonderful conversation. I have been so consumed with the election that I have been obsessing on Huffingtonpost and Dailykos.

I can only take so much of that and I need a swim in cool balance. This conversation is perfect.

All Goddesses are One Goddess and All Gods are one God and together They are the Initiator of life. They are One and we are within/part of It.
We honor our men as we are honored by them.

Athena, I agree about the Greenman. If men are not allowed to fully be whole, then they are stifled and limited. That is the best thing about our Pagan men...they can be Cernunnos as well as Pan, The Sage as well as the Greenman.

terra

You've got me wondering, PaganPlace. When I visit Wiccan sites, some are clearly biased towards the Goddess. Is this a reaction to the dominance of patriarchal religions? I just asked my son if he thought that Wicca is less welcoming to males. He said, "Not really. When you first look at it, it seems like Wicca is a pacifistic religion, because of the "Harm None" rule, and that doesn't seem to square with the aggressive part of being male. Then you realize that "Harm None" applies to you too, and it's ok to fight to protect yourself and others. You can be a Wiccan warrior." This REALLY got me to thinking, and I'm not done yet.

I think it's important to remember that the balance is never static. The arms rise and fall as circumstances and needs dictate. There is a time to exalt the Goddess, there is a time to exalt the God, there is a time to exalt their union in us.

Dealing as I am right now with a boss who seems to take out frustrations on only the women under supervision, this makes a lot of sense to me. It has taken getting the attention of the highest ups to feel like I even have a voice. Whether or not anything changes out of this remains to be seen.

It's not about one trying to be 'over' the other. It should be, at least ideally, about balance. it takes a lot to simply 'not condemn' the other, so I wonder what it would really take to actually begin to appreciate people for being themselves.

I wonder how much of what we ascribe to 'masculinity' vs. 'femininity' are really false boundaries, seeing as how (for me at least) everyone contains aspects of both inside of them most of the time.

Yes, Athena. I know what you're driving at, that's kind of what *I'm* driving at, too. (Kind of have an Athenian bent, myself, if no one noticed. :) I see the presence of something *there,* and a lot of Pagan men dealing well...

Also a lot of people talking about *balance* like something to be forced, rather than maybe so much breathed and lived.

On one hand, I think a lot of the seekers tend to bring issues from the larger society *in* when they come to the community... still see what we're doing *as another kind of authority,*

(...Aha! Youngling squirrel, red-tailed, bounding around outside with all the intensity of new life...Blessed be. :) )

..where was I. ...Balance. Gendered balance. There's a notion that folks tend to bring with them that such balance is about a semi-adversarial struggle, arbited by, perhaps, ideas of competition, rather than mutual support and the dynamism of what we may see as 'opposites.'

Polarity. Polarity's always been a big deal for me, and one I don't get easy answers for, most days of my life. I've never been comfortable with either 'taking a side' or setting the 'sides' aside as many LBGT groups are wont to.

When we speak of 'The Goddess,' certainly, it's an important point, I think, in that we *do* see the biggest 'form' of divinity as a Mother, many of us, then understand that this is actually what for we humans a *union* of the polarities that express here as 'male and female.'

Some speak of 'The God-force' or the God as needing 'equal representation,' when, that, I think, isn't the primary point.

(When speaking in these terms of, say, 'The Goddess.' )

As in, the big, incomprehensible-but-She-delights-in-us-trying sort of Big Goddess, not to be confused with a tribal image with tribal demands inflated to universal proportions.

Maybe remembering that the point of the Goddess being Goddess to us is not about *excluding* males, or *ruling gender roles,* but, *birthing all of us.*

Including Gods of many shapes ..and all of us.

We're polytheistic for a reason.

A lot of folks in queer Paganism actually dismiss some of the Wiccan mysteries as inherently heterosexist, for instance.

I know I'm bi, but I just can't take it that way, even when I was being cheesed at men after various bad times.

Everyone, in our world, has a father and mother.

We also have a universe maybe best related to *as* a Great Mother. Works for me, anyway, but maybe I only need to cause I love physics and cosmology.

I think it's important to be sure 'we girls' actually *hold space* for what Pagan men and the community at large are working out... As we speak.

Not done yet, ...but it's not a mirror image of authoritarian sexism. If it was I'd be 'throwing stones.' :)

Best to remember that. :)

I don't know, PP. How much "reverse sexism" is perceived by those who don't know us simply because we honor the Lady as well as the Lord? That is an alien concept in some theologies, the female divine. In the end what's important is the balance between the two.

I read an essay over the weekend that stated that in patriarchal societies (like ours), there is no room for the Green Man - the wild man of the forest who embraces and honors nature. Men have a harder time accepting this aspect of their nature because they've been trained to be "in control" of situations, or the primal condition. Many Pagan men are creating rituals specifically for themselves and their sons, so that they can also become fully realized humans.

I'm not really explaining this right. I hope you guys are getting my drift.

You know, I hadn't actually been seeing it in quite that perspective, Wiccan, Athena, when I said that. I've been thinking about that angle, not that it's inconsistent with the whole idea.

I've also just been thinking about what some of the overt sexism we've seen here, admittedly in general from those looking for a way to dismiss our faith group, really says about the landscape as regards religion and bigotry. Understanding of course, that this place, like the Net, has a way of driving out the moderates.

I wonder how many of the moderates, though, see what kind of sexism they sort of tacitly dismiss as unimportant.

As often happens, when confronted with people with grievances about their treatment, they tend to attack... The idea that it happens, the idea it'd be wrong if it was, the idea that who's complaining has a religious path and community of their own, (Apparently the idea is that if they don't agree with your theology, then it's OK to keep on hurting)

But.

It's another thing about how deep this runs.

I would really like to see if we can't work a bit on the *perception* that Wicca and Paganism are all about 'reverse sexism,' ...obviously some feel that way, and just because I think the notion is often overstated, and not in our own terms to begin with, I think it's a thing to look at.

Plenty of Pagan men can live it. Really do bring important things. Are we doing enough to support and encourage them?

Excellent post, PaganPlace. The universal reaction to overweening authority is to stick your tongue out as soon as the boss's back is turned. So if you have something to say about the king that would put you in danger, you attributed it to Zeus, or Apollo, or the usual gang of suspects. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

Good point, PP. Remember that to the ancients, their myths served to entertain as well as educate. You couldn't gossip about the king's peccadilloes, but you could tell a naughty story about Zeus or Apollo's affairs.

"What if a lot of those written works that people hold up as a shining beacon of 'this is my religion' are actually supposed to be meant as satire? Were all of those ancient monks thoroughly devoid of a sense of humor?"

Well, maybe some of them were trying. Still, I think it's clear they had a better understanding of how some of the old stories *were* meant, in terms of the use of humor and hyperbole... than do the modern eyes that tend to treat the written word like videotape. That's why we have it at all, I think, with only the things they *did* consider too dangerous at the time altered or expunged over time and many copyings.

Modern Christian eyes tend to look at even the modern translations of Classical mythology as if the more humorous or more negative-example episodes were actually qualities people must inherently have revered and been taught they must emulate: Zeus' many peccadilloes and romantic misadventures, for instance, are seen as ways to claim 'The Old Gods were corrupt and decadent and foolish,' instead of comprehending that, among other things, the stories of Zeus *illustrate* how the dynamics within his domains can *play out.*

By contrast, in the modern world, rulers are intended to represent beyond-human unquestionable lawgivers who must always be 'perfect' by some standards... in the process they deny the lessons and *constantly, constantly, constantly* get caught in infidelities and embarrassments. Duly expunged as hypocrites or 'justified and forgiven' or simply seen as too strong to really oppose every time, but it never ends.

The funny thing about the rather scandalous portrayals of the chalk figures in England in satirical ways, (apart from that it *is* commercialist disrespect for heritage to put Homer Simpson next to the Cerne Abbas giant, if I recall it correctly ) is that, ironically enough, in some of the old tales, the Dagda *is* portrayed a bit like Homer Simpson once in a while. His tunic too short, dragging a big club around randomly rearranging the landscape, etc. Obviously that's not by any means, the whole of the Good God, but I can still sort of see the modern 'family patriarch in some kind of embarrassing distress' there, on occasions.

(Not to conflate things Celtic with the Neolithic, but they had some view of these figures, too.)

Authority and meaning aren't always the same thing. This is where we are working out some cultural perspective differences, especially where we depend for many of our clues on people whose perspectives were already shifting away from the original understandings.

It's people.

Mirth *and* reverence, is all. :)

*Evening, all.* Nother busy day today, I'm afraid.

And, Concerned, it's called *communicating.*

:)

Hmmm, Arminius trying to convert Paganplace and vice versa???

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you two with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and pagan and Christian interpretations of said stupidity???

Mornin', Paganplace,

"Arminius says I exhaust him, and cause of his nature and personality, he'll get up in the morning and try and understand all at once again."

Lord, do you have me figured out! It's 9 in the AM, and here I am doing just that! I'm still laughing about it.

Arminius

I saw that too. If they knew some of the folks though, they wouldn't be talking about 'hairiness'. One of our girls studying for her First or Second Degree HP is from Trinidad.. and has been known to have guys on the street change direction immediately and follow her into the shop.

What I love so much about our local HP is that she sees the best qualities in people and has them teach to their area of expertise. Both male and female teachers abound, as well as female covens, mixed covens, and a guys group that explores the teachings of the God.

It's easy to say that it's not about the books, but sometimes a lot harder to explain that to others who think that's the 'only' way to have a religion. That it somehow becomes less serious or something just because it's not based on words on a page.. which got me to thinking on occasion.

There are so many books out there these days that are parodies of others. Since those in the Gallic lands used satire often, what if a lot of those written works that people hold up as a shining beacon of 'this is my religion' are actually supposed to be meant as satire? Were all of those ancient monks thoroughly devoid of a sense of humor?

I've had images of the ancestors hearing about those people these days tying themselves into knots trying to prove the literal historical and scientific 'accuracy' of the bible or other works and smacking their foreheads with their hands going 'what the heck are you doing?? That's SO not what we meant!' :)

Anyway, btw, Priver. Blessed be, it's good to see you. Does seem we get into interesting digressions in these threads, just in the course of justifying *having* things to say. See below. It was silly. The ancient and inviolable tradition of Lady Gillettes was involved. :)

Guess that just goes to the fact that I love the scholarship, Priver,

*Really* love it, actually. Just it somehow came about Lady doesn't seem to have decided to put me among postgraduate Gaelic language scholars for too long. ;)

Speaking of 'Where the Boys Are.' :)

In terms of our rights to even *be,* though, Priver, it's not about proving anything with books, it's about being *people,* ...not proof-texting our ways as the Christians call it, but, kind of, patiently insisting we *have* ways and are people and have a right to them.

It's just how it is.

Arminius says I exhaust him, and cause of his nature and personality, he'll get up in the morning and try and understand all at once again.

Many will try and dismiss us till they get exhausted, whatever they say, and get up in the morning and *still* start from a presumption we don't exist as people, and try and start the process again.

The folks in between aren't scholars, as edifying as the scholarship is.

A lot of *Pagans* don't relate to that kind of stuff in their daily lives very much, nor do they need or expect to.

Kind of goes to those things about people saying "Prove the ancestors weren't sexist."

Why? So I can flip em off about it? :)

No, we learn what we *can,* not expect them to have left a *book* behind to tell us what to justify, as others do.

Frankly, to me, the *point* of being a Pagan is about things they *can't* take away. Not even if they *did* manage to burn all the books.

Cause that's how I got it. The books are gravy. Yummy, yummy gravy. But gravy nonetheless. :)

"Can you imagine formalizing our English the way they did with the Gaelic? Taking out all the slang and colloquialisms, all idiomatic speech and keeping it that way for over 500 years to teach to others? "

Nope. Never got anywhere by trying, either. ;)

Or:

The meter.
In which we speak.
Is not.
About matching the charts
Of how the ancients did
In another language
As little we know
Nor sounding
All Celtic
Like in translation
Like Nuala Ni Dhomhnail
Or even when to break
The meter

Figuring we gotta go begging for some justification like this stuff came from a Bible.

But knowing why. How, where and when. Without permission, even.

If Druidry was never more than forms, it's time did pass,
With a lot of class, and grace
and best-not-mentioned-inya face. :)

If it was more, then *let it be more.*

Something you can't stop by burning books or killing people.

They'll try both. :)

MMA Paganplace!

It's been some time since there was something on this board that Starhawk could really be a part of. Been kinda lurking around a bit, jumping in when I found it possible.. which wasn't too much in the past few weeks.

Can you imagine formalizing our English the way they did with the Gaelic? Taking out all the slang and colloquialisms, all idiomatic speech and keeping it that way for over 500 years to teach to others? It's really mind boggling to think about.

Priver! MMA! LTNS! :)

Let me assure you, about bardic meters, though, that trying to cram *any* English into dan direacht outweighs gender concerns by a far shot. ;)

MMA Arminius!

You mentioned reincarnation.. not all Pagans come up with the same ideas. I can only speak for myself but I've considered the basic possibilities and have come up with three.

If the energies that make up me/my soul go back and rejoin that of the Earth, that's ok with me. My body will become a part of the Mother again after I die regardless of whether I'm buried in the ground or scattered to the winds, so maybe my energies will be needed as a part of that process.

If whatever power(s) that be decide that I need to come back in a different form or body, that's ok too. It's been an unbelievable ride thus far, so another go round might help me to learn what it is that's needed. I do have a tendency to be a bit thickheaded sometimes and need to occasionally be hit over the head to finally get the lesson. :)

If it all just stopped.. that's ok too.

Beyond that, there's just no point in worrying about something I have ultimately no control over one way or another. Life is just too good right now.

I think you'll find that a lot of the Pagan folk have plenty of different ideas about what happens after the great mystery. Just another part of the cycle.

To the others, correct me if I'm wrong, please.. but the impressions I've gotten from my readings was that the Druids who were skilled in all of the learnings (bardic, ovate and druid) were mostly male.. but that especially in bardism anyone could learn and be on the road to the formal study if they'd mastered some of the basic metres.

Paganplace, I love you!

Out for a while, gotta recover.

Arminius

Hey, no one said exploring the mysteries of life and the universe had to be *dreary and boring,* did they? Oh, well, some say that, but hat do they know. :)

Damnit, Paganplace, you wear me out. But it is grand fun.

Arminius

But, anyway, hopefully in the interim this will enable us to return to our regularly-scheduled discussion of racism and sexism without so much of people saying there's no substance to our religion cause they aren't convinced we all shave our legs enough, eh? :)

You don't get it all at once. Gotta stay occupied somehow without all those trips to the cosmetics counter, I guess. :)

"Dear friend, you have totally lost me. I must re-read and reply later"

Hey, *you* said 'Enlighten me,' and I didn't even bring out the slapstick. :)

Blessed be. :)

Paganplace,

Dear friend, you have totally lost me. I must re-read and reply later.

With respect and love,

Arminius

Or, hey. Like the Song of Amergin sings:

"I am a wave of the sea, I am a sound of the sea."

Where do "I" start, where do "I" end... Am I a thing? Can you chart me? What am I made of? Where is the distinction?

Reincarnating is not a variation on the idea we're created, beamed in as a 'thing called I,' and beamed out to something else. We're risings and fallings of something much bigger, as a Wiccan priest I like a lot says.

Maybe what I remember is not 'me,' but a shape passed on by the motion of a living world. Ok, roll on. :)

I am a wave of the sea, a leaf on the wind. :)

Anyway, that's what I've got to say about that. :)

On this, though:

"To devolve into more esoteric matters. I know you Pagans are into reincarnation - mentioned by Caesar as one of the Druids' beliefs. I have always wondered about that, despite being Christian."

Wondered what? :)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, 'Into Reincarnation,' like it's some kind of hobby or special thing apart from life.

(A certain number of Druidic sticklers for text will say, 'You can only *prove* they believed in *transmigration,* to which my usual response is, 'Next chance I get, I'll ask the Hawk of Achill, while I'm hitting up the GI Bill for past services rendered. ;) ')

I mean, not everyone's got all those kind of memories, (It's actually pretty distracting, unless I guess you really need it, which I wouldn't put past myself, knowing me. Not the point. Certainly, the point is also not remembering an oxcart and figuring you must have been Richard III. :) )

"Into it." Gods, the most of the world that has held to reincarnation has a way of trying real hard to get *out* of it. :)

I understand the sentiment, but as a Pagan I don't much hold to the notion of Big And Permanent Shortcuts. :)

(Which you'll find isn't actually the point of *those* traditions unless you happen to be being a monk right now anyway. :) )

For most of us, it has everything to do with being *part* of the world, cycles of life, death and rebirth, not about some extra-special thing about being dead celebrities. :)

I guess, Arminius, in terms of the documentation of ancient cultures we have from their invaders, there is parallax.

To get an idea how much correction may be involved, compare the well-intentioned accounts of those who accompanied those who traveled with those who drove American Indians off their lands and set them against each other as they pressed... with those of the people who know damn well what their recent ancestors taught them.

Heck, most of our 'official' names for native American tribes are actually the names their *neighbors we met first* gave *them.*

A lot of the names we use for Native American tribes actually mean some variation of 'Those people over there' in the language of their more easterly neighbors.

You really think it was that different in Caesar's Europe? :)

These are not 'authorities.' They are *reports.* From someone trying to look at a piece of something they could see, (without even press credentials) You have to read them as such.

A lot of the stuff they saw was probably pretty bewildering from their perspective. The question is, 'What can we really tell about what they *saw.* Like interviewing any witness.

"First, exactly what do you hold as 'authority' in this problem of druids?"

Y Gwir Y Erbin Byd? :)

Nothing, really, though. There is nothing a book can tell you as an 'authority' without understanding. There's little point in claiming incomplete textual 'evidence' justifies claiming a 'complete authority' when you have to fill in so much, anyway.

Same standards, don't you know, as those I apply to others who *do* see their own book that way. Books are there, but they're just books.

Things start becoming 'special magic books,' you can see why the Druids didn't write important things down in the first place.

It helps you understand, or it does not. We stand on some impressive shoulders. But I think they believed like me that it'd be better to start from scratch and the world than spend a lot of time worrying if a book gave you permission to look and understand.

"Next. I have certainly read Caesar's Gallic Commentaries, and even read them in Latin."

Me, too. Well, some of em.

"Sure, he had an axe to grind - conquering the place, which he certainly did, to the utter woe of the inhabitants. It wasn't pretty. But as far as the reporting of the customs of the Gauls and Germans, I see no bias."

I do, because, frankly, yes, he was a master of self-serving propaganda, and also, much of it *doesn't fit with other sources.*

Much of what we have been allowed to know about the ancient Pagan world *is in fact in the form of translations of lurid travelogues someone was trying to sell.*

Just like now.

" I really think he reported it as he saw it. He gave the Gauls much credit, in terms of bravery especially. Sure, he was writing his own propaganda, but he gave his foes credit."

For being impressive foes, yes.

All to his own glory, of course.

Which is a long way around saying, Arminius, that much of the story around *Boudicca* has to do with the Romans crossing a line, *violating the very orders of the world that enabled that system of tribes and chieftains to play against and be played against each other,*

...the beating of the Queen of the Iceni and the rape of her daughters wasn't a crime against 'virginity' and some man's presumptive *property rights,* ...it actually put the entire situation on a whole other level. Something that went beyond the affairs of men and tribes and into the very wrath of the land itself, embodied in a people who weren't so divided as certain machines thought they had made them.

Oops.

Opening a can, indeed.

The eyes of a reader of books may not get that.

The heart can know it from the stories, though. And. I do commend us all to responsible modernity. :)

Paganplace,

Well, now, do we have the start of one of our Great Debates here? Yikes....

First, exactly what do you hold as 'authority' in this problem of druids?

Next. I have certainly read Caesar's Gallic Commentaries, and even read them in Latin. Sure, he had an axe to grind - conquering the place, which he certainly did, to the utter woe of the inhabitants. It wasn't pretty. But as far as the reporting of the customs of the Gauls and Germans, I see no bias. I really think he reported it as he saw it. He gave the Gauls much credit, in terms of bravery especially. Sure, he was writing his own propaganda, but he gave his foes credit.

To devolve into more esoteric matters. I know you Pagans are into reincarnation - mentioned by Caesar as one of the Druids' beliefs. I have always wondered about that, despite being Christian. Being fascinated with history, there are certain events that I relate so strongly with, that the idea of a former life always comes to mind. One, of course, is that event, sometime about 29 CE, in Judea, concerning a certain carpenter. The other is the Battle of Bannockburn, where the Scots, under Robert the Bruce, delivered an ass-whomping to the English that they still remember.

Damn. How did I get here, and where am I going?

Arminius

"Think Boudicca. What a tragedy that was! I wish they had pushed the Romans into the Channel."

Would have been a bit hard from Colchester, I'm afraid. :) But, *tsk.* Valor and enthusiasm still needs good logistics, being the lesson there. Never shut the door behind you like that.

But, she's a prime example of things that *do* occur in plenty of Celtic stories and Gaelic texts, even later rules of what it takes to be in the bardic class, ...never mind the chieftainly/warrior one. Men were all the first candidates, but birth and talent and other factors far outweighed one's sex come down to it.

There's also no theological basis to think otherwise. In Celtic cultures, nearly *all* the Gods would fight at need, thus causing the Romans to declare all our ancestors' Gods must be Mars or Minerva, or some such.

Yes, the male Gods would fight, for strength, honor, glory, what you like.

But, as for Goddeses, when the Black-Winged One had to get involved, that's the sound of one can opening you don't wanna hear. :)

MM, Lepi!

Hope your husband will be up and about in short order. Glad to see you here, you haven't been around much.

WOW, the move is here already!! Time flies!

Try to take one thing at a time. Glad you have family to help out.

Hurry back when you are settled in.

"The predominant evidence still indicates that the druids were male. The screaming women at Anglesey were no doubt connected, but not druids per se..."

Eh, see, though, this has a tendency to be about the opinions of those who 'predominated' and processed the 'evidence,' (And we can get a pretty good idea of *their* biases, as well as evidence they did tamper.)

It's a debatable matter, but this isn't exegesis of *texts,* (Even hanging out with modern Druids, I have to keep reminding people of that.) The texts aren't *authority.* They are texts written and copied by *living people.*

Books are books. Evidence is evidence.

Now, I'm not all wound up about any notion women wore fresh-spun linen and harvested mistletoe off oaks with golden sickles or any of that other Morganwyg romantic stuff...

But however you define a 'Druid,' it'd take some extraordinary evidence to support what to some is a bias toward believing that obviously the religion of the people had nothing to do with women. It's not an idea that is supported at all by song, story, or history.

Or, present reality. Modern Pagans may not be bent on a rose-colored view of history, but to be honest, if an ancient Druid walked up and said to a modern female one with an idea 'You can't do that,' we'd say, "Oh, yeah? Watch this!"

:)

Practical folk, we modern Pagans, though some'll tell you otherwise. :)

Hi, Paganplace,

Thanks for the input. Someday I hope to go into that 'Pagan space' and see for myself what's happening there.

The predominant evidence still indicates that the druids were male. The screaming women at Anglesey were no doubt connected, but not druids per se. This does not subtract from the position of women in Celtic society. Think Boudicca. What a tragedy that was! I wish they had pushed the Romans into the Channel. But they would have been back....

Ah, yes, koans. 'What is the sound of one duck flapping?'. Oh, dear, that's not it.... 'What is the sound of one can opening?' Damnit, I'll get it in a minute....

Actually, I am quite fond of haiku. As a master said:

I'm rolling over -
Beware of local earthquakes,
Bedfellow cricket!

Arminius

And, actually, Arminius, those who have studied the 'Irish Glosses,' (stuff monks wrote in the margins of books they transcribed) better than I've been able to, recount there's actually some signs where either a female Druid was 'edited' into having been male all along, or possibly transformed (You got folks turning into birds and turning their heads around backwards, why not. :) ) ...And signs that a later copyist got confused by the inconsistency of the editing on the count of whether or not a particular Druid was male or female or what. :)

'Saving Civilization' ain't always tidy, nor complete, nor unbiased, let's say. For our sense of history, we have what we have, with thanks, but never think the scribes are a UPI wire from the past. :)

Nor that it defines destiny. :)

"So the question: are most Pagans female? Not that I would object, I'm just curious. The historical records seem to be a bit sparse. Caesar did say that all druids were male. "

No, really. Even when the Romans massacred the Druids on Anglesey, they encountered women shrieking down some stuff best-not-mentioned... it's a matter for debate if they were *called* Druids, strictly speaking, or in the sense that Mediterranean folks would use the term, but the closest things to intact records, filtered in general through Christian monks, (and otherwise to massively overgeneralize about thousands of years of hundreds of tribes) ...birth and talent could outweigh sex in many regards. Did many of the traditions associated with male Druids get to be considered the *whole* of all these traditions? Maybe.

Modernly, though, Arminius, no, we're by no means all female. All you'd have to do is walk into Pagan space to see that.

I think there may in fact be a real tendency for women to be more-represented among the *talkers and organizers and activists and mediators-with-the-other-tribes, as the outside world sees,* more likely to be the representatives and ambassadors of Paganism as a whole, even, but Pagan men are important teachers and leaders and contributors all *within* the Pagan community, and quite often right up there among those who are working for *specific causes,* alongside and even leading people who aren't being overtly 'Pagan' about it.

So, maybe there's a demographic there. Or maybe it's that the outside world has a tendency to discount the Goddess-loving men who *are* out there as 'not counting' cause they're perceived as 'unmasculine' for it. They'll get told to their face they aren't doing what they're doing because obviously Paganism is only for girls. :)

People's filters get really interesting when it comes to perceptions like this.

Now, we certainly get a lot of female seekers (and queer ones) *because* certain other religions have a way of actively-excluding folks who might not otherwise be too inclined to question too hard, ...and male seekers are often much more embarrassed to *say* they are Pagan, since, to much of society, this is considered to *make* them less of men, ...but it's not so skewed as portrayed, not nearly.

I suppose, too, few Pagan men I can think of bluster. And if they do, they're blustering *within* the community about scholarly stuff. :)

*chuckle, though.*

"Can you enlighten me?"

I just think of Zen koans, here. :)

Well, the conversation has taken an interesting turn. I might as well pitch in. I'll be 65 in a few weeks. I am a tad overweight, about 20 lbs. I am bald, with a gray beard. Oddly, I don't shave my legs....

Some comments here bring up a point of interest to me. Two things were obvious to me when my life was graced by meeting you Pagans here. One, you are mostly women. Two, it was plainly obvious that you are not a bunch of man-haters. So the question: are most Pagans female? Not that I would object, I'm just curious. The historical records seem to be a bit sparse. Caesar did say that all druids were male. Can you enlighten me?

Arminius

And, Hey, Athena, I shave my legs... Occasionally. :) Think they'll let us talk theology, now? :)

(haha, actually, it's just for those occasions when I'm wearing an above-the-ankle skirt or something, those don't come too often in my life. If there were more *of* it, maybe I'd care more, but really. So most Pagans aren't revolted or made somehow indignant by a little leg hair. A lot of the men wear beards, too. Not that I mind: stubble really abrades the face, though. Beard or none, please, before intimacies. :) Still, what's the biggie? )

Ah, Lepi, all the best for your husband's health and your move, ...those always seem to be stressful, even without additional worries.

A bit on the notion of 'reverse sexism' in Paganism, though, (I think it's often overstated and sometimes a bit off-base: there are some Pagans who read more on the Net than they see from community in person, or see the many womens' spirituality groups out there, (And there are many: when you consider the prevalence of sexual assault in this country, not to mention how upbringing as a female colors experience of other religions, this is no surprise, I think, that alone means 'women's space' is something that needs to be out there. But it's by no means all that's out there, and sometimes such groups are a bit separated from the rest of the community, hopefully and often with good relations. :)

This is often used to characterize the Pagan community as a 'Man-Hating Girls' Only Club' or one where men are less-valued or important, but that's not the reality of it.

There certainly *are* a lot of women in leadership positions, maybe more than a lot of men are used to, but somehow the idea's come about to some that that means males are devalued or pushed-out.

Really, the expectation is that men will embody the Gods in strong and positive ways, and greet the Goddess in women with strength in themselves *and* respect. (This goes for anyone greeting anyone in our traditions: all that "beauty and strength, power and compassion, mirth and reverence" stuff from Wicca. :) )

This isn't a matter of cutting anyone down, it's about all of us bringing what we can offer.

One of the interesting trends in the Pagan community (at least in the Mid-Atlantic region) is the concept of Sacred Sexuality. The concept that sexuality is a way of raising energy, sort of like Tantric philosophy. Granted, sometimes it's used as an excuse to get your freak on, but it does have some points.

And yeah, I'm a middle-aged woman that, while I don't normally wear makeup and am overweight, I dress nicely and shave my legs. My husband and I are married, not buried. I don't get jealous if he looks at another woman, and he doesn't get jealous if I look at another man. In fact, we joke about it. Then again, I'm finding that our marriage is pretty abnormal. But, it works.

Let us look at the problem in parts.

Part 1,

1. Sexism in the Catholic Church.

a) the refusal to allow women, single or married, to be priests using "fuzzy" references in scripture to make the case.

b) St. Paul the Prude as per Professor Bruce Chilton
An excerpt from his book, Rabbi Paul":

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity and a major factor in the Church's treatment of women.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

c. And it is very probable that the Islamic scribes in the plagiarizing from the NT used Paul's ideas about women and added them to the sexist koran.

Merry mmet, Gaby!

Yes, we do still have sexism in America, although, like racism, it isn't as bad as it used to be. But we won't be where we need to be until all of it is gone.

Women still generally earn about 80 cents for every dollar a man earns at he same job, with factors like education, experience, etc. being equal.

Law enforcement still sometimes treats women who were raped while wearing a miniskirt or a blouse with a low neckline, or who walk alone after dark as partially to blame for the crime. A person should not have to be afraid of the dark just because she has breasts and a vagina.

We also have discrimination against males. In cases of divorce, it's almost a given that unless the husband can prove that the wife is an unfit parent, she will get custody of the children.

And it's no secret that a black person convicted of a violent crime will often get a hrasher sentence than a white person convicted of the same crime, or that a black death row inmates outnumber white.

I'll be offline for a while. My husband is in the hospital and might be released today, we closed on our new house yesterday, our landlord wants to start showing our apartment on the 1st, and my parents and my sister, bless them, are renting a moving van and coming over today, along with a friend of mine to move all our furniture, and I haven't finished packing.

Oh My, I love men! I have always loved talking to them and I appreciate a nice butt, and strong hands ; )

Oh and I shave my legs, wear make up and try to keep my old self looking ok.

What is it with people..we are either hags or man hateing lesbians, or that W word.
Here is one Wiccan who I have met that I found a picture of...She is Phyllis Curott, an attorney, Author and High Priestess. Notahag and very much a political activist.
http://citybeat.com/2005-01-19/books-1.jpg

terra

Anyhoo, I wrote a bit of something for you fellows, but something in the subject matter tripped the filters and got the post held, and I'm too tired to figure out what.

Honoring males and male Gods and issues related, that kind of stuff.

But, in short, rest assured, lots of women can tell the difference between being appreciated and leered at. There are a lot of things that are considered 'Acceptable outlets' in what we consider a more sexually-repressed culture at large, that are considered disrespectful and uncalled for among Pagans, ...we have more positive expressions and models, we'd say.

:)

*with a wave and a MM!*

And, hi, Wiccan! Sorry about my being-unsure on your gender, I knew I'd mixed it up before and forgot. :)

*flop* Busy day. (there will be more of these in upcoming times) Lots to read, here. :)

Gotta laugh about the 'why aren't there any pretty Wiccans, so I can't take you seriously,' bit...

Speaking of sexism. :)

Arminius

I wouldn't say i'm a "Practicing Pagan," but the philosophy and principles articulated here by Starhawk and Terra and Pagan have educated me a lot, and are almost entirely compatible with the way I feel about nature and human relations and spirituality.

If I can be said to believe in God, the closest thing to it would be the Moon Goddess.

Kinda in the sense of TS Eliot's poem "The Dry Salvages" which starts:
"I do not know much about gods; but I think that the river
Is a strong brown god—sullen, untamed and intractable,
Patient to some degree, at first recognised as a frontier;
Useful, untrustworthy, as a conveyor of commerce;
Then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges.

Hi, Henry,

We are truly kindred spirits, and that gives me a good feeling. Let us keep up the dialog. We will, and should, have our differences, but that is what learning is all about.

Are you really a Pagan now? If so, I think that is really cool, and congratulate you. If this is not true, please correct me, and no problem.

Arminius

Arminius

Thanks for your gracious reply. You are one of the TrULY spiritual people with whom the magnificent spiritual teachings of Jesus resonate in a way that is good for humanity.

Sect-ims, tribalism, we are better than they are, is the greatest danger to human progress and survival.

Jesus's most central commandments were two: love God (which I translate as the Goodness in the universe)

and
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Since the God concept is pretty abstract, the loving-our-neighbor part is the one thing we can be relatively sure of.

With an overarching (and innate - shall we say "God-given") sense of the good and the moral.

Henry James,

Hello, old ghost friend.

This is a very difficult subject.

Because I crept into Christianity from an outside spiritual place, I am still struggling with all this.

What I can say is that after four readings of the Gospels, I accepted what I consider the core teaching of Jesus: love, compassion, acceptance, reaching out to all.

Honestly, I don't know what to do with the exclusive statement that one must believe in Jesus to reach the Father. I do not buy into the last days stuff. I have no interest in either hell or heaven, that will all be settled by how I live my life. I like to believe that if one accepts what I consider the core teachings of Jesus, then you have accepted Him.

But as of now, I believe there are many true paths up that mountain. Even though I know my path is a true one, I cannot accept that there are not other true paths.

God is too big for a single church.

With respect,

Arminius, a Christian seeker

Arminius

Since you are one of my esteemed Christian friends, i wanted to get your view on this:

Though I am an apostate Mormon, I still consider Jesus by and large to be a profound and compassionate moral teacher.

BUT: he did (according to the gospels) say that those who did not accept God in his way would be damned at the last judgment.
and that "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man cometh unto the father but by me."

How do you reconcile these exclusivist strains with Jesus's well known love and acceptance for all humans.

I don' think this question can be settled by a PAPAL EDICT, I think every Christian has to have her own view on it. So I am interested in yours, as a Christian whose humaneness I greatly respect.

love
Henry

Wiccan,

Yes, I accept your view, of course. It is good to know. I could go on endlessly about this, and eventually end up embarassing myself horribly.

For a Parthian shot on the subject: there have been occasions, when stuck in the fabled Atlanta traffic, in the summer, no air conditioning in the car, with my grumpiness approaching 7.6 on the Richter scale - I look to the side, and see in the next car the face of an angel. Then I know, in my mind, in my heart, in my soul, hell, I know down to the molecular level, just exactly why the Trojan war was fought.

Arminius

Please believe me, Arminius, the pleasure of admiring the looks of the opposite sex belongs to the female gender too. Tho I will admit that when I was in love, no one was as beautiful as my beloved. (Except maybe Sean Connery. Woof!)

To Arminius:

Your story regarding your encounter with a goddess reminded of a Chesterton quote that I think of whenever I look at my wife:

"One of the mysteries of marriage (which must be a Sacrament and an extraordinary one, too) is that a man evidently useless like me can yet become at certain instants indispensable. And the further oddity (which I invite you to explain on mystical grounds) is that he never feels so small as when he knows he is necessary."

Well, here's hoping that the women we love never see us as we truly are... :)

Wiccan, well met!

"Gracious use of power" - well put. I shall remember. That effect on a man is, to one attuned, close to spiritual.

Arminius

Dia duit, Arminius!

Your last post about the effect women can have on men reminded me of a Joel Achenbach post. He was a teenager at the time, just walking down the street when he sees this absolutely gorgeous woman walking towards him. Joel just stood there gawking, until she came up beside him, smiled, and gently growled in his ear. Joel called it the "gracious use of power". It's a wonder the poor boy didn't faint.

Fear not, Athena, I'm familiar with the diversity of opinion in Wicca and Paganism.

I was the contact person for my local CUUPS chapter.

I just have so many interests and involvements that Paganism sorta drifted off to the side.

I've got to give starhawk credit. I've never seen 'nothing' said so beautifully and at such great length.

ChurchStateWall:

First, you are right that there is something of sexism against males. But I submit that it is not as severe as that against women. We men do not suffer from lower pay rates. Domestic violence is almost always directed by men against women. Men are more likely to be promoted. Etc ad nauseam.

You are right about women being possessive. My wife's jealousy helped torpedo our marriage.

Which brings us to looking at women. To begin, I have known all too many men that viewed women as possessions. I despise this. In my view, woman is God's most beautiful and glorious creation. If I don't look at a woman, I am being dishonest to myself, and not letting the woman know she is appreciated. Not necessarily lusted over, but appreciated. This is difficult to do without putting the object of my admiration in a disdainful mood, no matter how much I try to be discreet. But sometimes..... sometimes.... Once I was coming out of a store, tired, stressed, depressed. I realized there was someone standing in front of me. When I looked, it was a strikingly attractive woman, dressed to kill, obviously going out for the evening. I stood there for a minute, stunned and slack-jawed. She gifted me with a glorious smile, as if to say, 'Thanks for noticing that I'm gorgeous!'. I think it took me fully five minutes to find my car in the parking lot.

Many women do not understand the profound effect they can have on men like me who really appreciate them. I have never yet met a woman who understands these lines from the Song of Solomon:

Who is this, that rises up like the dawn,
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrible as an army with banners?

Arminius

Angela, what is it about the less than 1% of the population who consider themselves Pagan that scares you so much?

Also, Churchstatewall - there is a subset of Wiccans who do shun men, and view all heterosexual sex as rape, etc. They're just one of the many facets of Paganism. Many of them (although I can't speak for all) have been victimized in the past. However, most of us believe in and revere the balance of male and female energies. One of our sacred texts, the Charge of the Goddess, says that "all acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals." The God and Goddess are lovers. We like to emulate that as often as possible. ;)

And for those of you who think that we're all a bunch of hairy hippies - you're hanging out with the wrong groups. We get a lot more Goths than we do hippies these days. Pagans DO wear makeup. It's just that most of it is black, and some of them are guys. :D

PP and Terra,

Thanks for your insights. I think I am a bit like Wiccan. I see the world more with men's eyes than women's.

I am not normally offended by generalized uncooth behavior. I laugh at blonde jokes. I get only offended when oratory attacks are directed at a particular person, espcially when I know that person.

I have never had to be an underling to any man, except when my husband was in the Army and I was the "dependant". I kind of resented that. But then I got to know a couple of guys whose wives where in the military and they were the "dependants". I thought that was righteous.

As far as credit cards are concerned, I only needed my husbands signature when I stayed home with my children and had no individual income. When we returned to the States atfter overseas deployment and I started working I was able to get credit in my own name. But that was in the early 90's so maybe those changes had taken place already.

As far as salary is concerned, I never had that problem either because I have always worked in the government sector and there pay is equal.

So you see, I probably never experienced any of the things you describe.

Angela, I have told you many times you are an utter twit. Deriding someone else's believe to built your own fairy tale up is very poor conduct and only becoming of a pharisee. If the shoe fits.....

complementarianism != sexism

There is sexism that needs to be addressed, but I'll make a bold statement:

There is as much anti-male sexism as the more familiar misogynistic type.

Many, even including some in the Pagan/Wiccan realm, look upon the male sexual nature as inherently creepy, degrading, or uncouth. If a man finds something sexually arousing in a woman or a depiction of a woman, that is considered "degrading" to the woman or "objectifying" of the woman, and renders the man a "pig" or a "dog." If something is sexually appealing to a male, many people automatically conclude that this makes it degrading to women.

(And then there are many others in the Pagan and Wiccan realm that have a thoroughly balanced view of sexuality. If you are one of these, then my comments do not apply to you.)

Excuse me, but I am not going to apologize for being an openly heterosexual male. My natural, built-in aesthetic eye for the female form DOES NOT make me a "pig."

It make me a man, and a damm healthy one at that.

Much is made of men trying to control woman and treat them as possessions, and this isn't without some factual basis. But most women, upon establishing a relationship, regard men as possessively and exclusively as any man does a woman. Woe be to the "attached" man, let alone a *married* man, who even *thinks* about another woman.

Most women try to control and restrain men just as zealously as men try to control women.

There exists in our society -- in progresive/liberal circles as well as traditional -- a contempt for the male sexual nature that runs so deep that its mere appearance is considered uncouth or misogynistic.

I will be one of the few voices to combat this.

Combating sexism is a noble goal.

But let's combat *all* of it.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

Just Wondering,

You seem to be under the impression that all Wiccans are 1970's lesbian terrorist ultra-feminists. Just how many Wiccans have you met? No make-up, uncombed hair, hairy legs? What a hoot!

Angela, where are your manners? It's obvious that you are not here for any respectful give and take. You have already made up your mind who and what we are, without knowing us, or desiring to know us (hint- this is one definition of a bigot).

You come to our home and gratuitously insult us, then pat yourself on the back for speaking the "truth". You know, the Jesus I see mirrored in you is nothing like the Jesus I see through my sister and friends like Arminius. Now that is a fellow worthy of admiration and emulation. Your Jesus I want nothing to do with.

Now you can go down to your house justified, having told off us nasty Pagans. Buh-Bye.

Why aren't there any pretty wiccans? I think that's one of the things keeping me from taking it seriously.
Is make-up against the rules or something? Maybe run a comb through the hair? Shaving the gams? I'm just sayin'.

Terra,

Please remind me from time to time never to piss you off!

I'm with you about Clinton. Or, rather, the Clintons. Hillary is tough and capable, but so totally ruthless that she cannot be trusted. The real tragedy is that she and Bill will continue to swiftboat Obama. If that succeeds, then she will have alienated enough Democrats to ensure that McCain will win. Given the choice between McCain and Clinton - talk about being between a rock and a hard place. Even trying to choose the lesser of two evils is a lose-lose situation.

Arminius

Angela,

The Pagans here do not put themselves above Christianity. No. They put themselves above Christianity as you present it, which is with words full of spite and vitriol. If I thought for a moment that your ugly version of Christianity were true, I'd become a Pagan today. What they have told me about their faith is much, much more admirable than the total negativity that you pontificate.

Arminius

I will not vote for Hillary, not because of her husband...but her. She lies. That is it...I will not trust a lier. I do not trust Bush because he is a lier.

Bush wanted votes against Iran...and even after her vote on Iraq, she voted with Bush on Iran.Is that stupid?

She has been the one that brought out the "Obama is a Muslim" lie. The picture of him, the "Obama sold drugs"...Ferraro saying that Obama would not be where he is if her was not black. Garbage..and lies.That McCain would be better then her fellow dem? So does she think him adding two or more supreme court justices will be better then a fellow dem?

I would rather cut off my arm then willingly vote for her. I might have to rather then McCain...But Gods, I hate it that I can not joyfully root for her and cast my vote to her.

But rather an honerable man then a lieing, spining woman. It's up to us what we want...where we stand.

terra the angry!

Angela,
I have never said Paganism is better then any other faith...nor are they worse. We have a basic belief that those who follow the way sees no lines between people.
I will give you a forinstance as far as Honor and trust goes...

I go to a Pagan Gathering called PSG..Pagan Spirit Gathering...there is an average of 1000+ that go each year. There are workshops that teach, several bands that have concerts each day and one each night, and venders that sell all kinds of things..lovely Pagan stuff, some handcrafted.

I have been on my way to a workshop and see something I want to buy, usually not having my money witrh me, the person tells me to go ahead and take it and bring the money later. Once I went into a venders shop and saw a sign, "Have gone to Concert, get what you want and put money in the caudron." There is a mutual trust and honor bwetween us that is not in the mainline society. Do you have to lock your doors when you go out of your house? I can leave my tent flap open. People smile and help each other..

We do not have the fear of hell and the devil, we have self reponcibility. I know that I will only harm myself if I harm others. I see the reflection of who I am in those others I see. There is no them v. Us..there is only us.

We do not have just a religion, but a philosophy and a life style...it is not saved for Sunday, it is lived each day.

I am merely talking about the religion I happen to follow, on a Pagan page to those who are here to share knowledge. Angela, I would not think of coming to your house and telling you how to speak or think..please give me the same respect. Because little girl, I don't give a rats @$$ what you think of my gods. It is not your religion...it is mine. I would not expect you to honor my gods...only respect I have the right to have them.
terra

I'm not a hater but I refuse to continue to have those who always claim that Pagans are more loving, kind and charitable which is a stereotype and paint "so called religious people" as bigots. If you take a look and research who gives more to charity, builds more homes, feeds the poor, not just in the United States; it is the "so called" religious right. check it out... Also, I have the absolute right to say what a Wiccan is: is it not based on witchcraft? I'm speaking the truth here. Terra and Wiccan are always painting paganism as something that is above Christianity. Because I don't tickle ears on this post with wanting to be liked by those who puff themselves up by practicing, worshipping and idolizing false gods and seeing themselves as righteous.

Even though I'm an Obama supporter by virtue of my top candidates dropping out, I have to give Hillary props for sticking with it. I'm very happy to have a woman being one of the front-runners for President. It's an amazing thing, considering that women didn't even get to vote until the 1920's. She's pounding the heck out of that glass ceiling. It probably won't break for her, but she's put enough of a dent in it that it will break more easily for the next woman to run.

That being said, I think that a lot of the reasons that HRC won't win the nomination isn't because she's female - it's because of her last name, her husband, and all of the baggage that comes with it. If another woman - say Gov. Sibelius of Kansas, Sen. Boxer of California, or even my home state Senator Mikulski of Maryland were running, that woman wouldn't have as much baggage as HRC does. I'm tired of being called a self-hating woman because I'm not a Hillary supporter. My philosophy is that I don't want the Clinton circus back in town. Period.

Oh, and Angela... you are a perfect example of why many Pagans engage in "Christian-bashing". If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation other than calling us a bunch of Satanists, then don't bother posting. Just leave us alone.

Wiccan,

You told Angela, "What a perfect mirror of your god you are. "

No, Wiccan, no. Angela is a very, very imperfect mirror of God. Somehow she cannot see Jesus as he was (and, in my belief, still is), reaching out to everyone. He despised no one, even though He did have some problems with money changers in the temple, and had some choice words for the Pharacees.

Why Angela chooses to hate is beyond me. I'm on her list too, of course. Not that I'll lose sleep over it.

Arminius

In racism and sexism, there is a sort of built-in advantage in the system for one group over the other; it is a socio-economic phenomenon, which is independent of how any particular indivdual might feel, and also independent from the legal system. It is social "entrenchment" that is beyond our control, because all we can control is just ourselves, and all we can influence is just a few people we know.

Also, about electing a head of state:

Our system of electing a president is sort of rigid and mechnistic; the election pops up every 4 years, ready or not, and there is a window that opens and closes, which is independent of and individual's personal charisma and momentary popularity and fame. In America, the system promotes just plain ordinary people, of no particular distinction or talent, who have put in their time and their dues to the system; then they get their chance. A Parlimentary system of choosing a Prime Minister, on the other hand, is more reactive and reflective of real-time public opinion and interest, and a popular woman or someone from an ethnic minority is not as constrained by the window of opportunity, but can make their own opportunities happen.

Angela,

What a perfect mirror of your god you are. And you wonder why we reject him.

Merry Meet, all!

PP, I had to laugh when I read your post. I am of the female persuasion, but 1) I have been told so many times I am my father in female form that I've lost count, and 2) I am a Leo times six. This incarnation's lesson has been to learn how to balance the male and female parts of my personality, how to balance my mother and father in me. Now that I'm in my fifth decade, I'm closer to that balance than I've ever been.

I think the Abrahamic cultures make it easy for these "isms" to exist. When you separate God(dess) from this world and its inhabitants, when you start with the premise that all humans are evil, worthless, sniveling sinners whom God hates, then it makes it easy to treat others as less than yourself. When you start with the premise that the Divine is present in everything, even humans, then it behooves you to act with respect and courtesy towards them.

Terra, I still cringe whem I remember times that I acted without honor and lost others' trust. That feeling keeps me on the straight and narrow much better than any fear of "hell".

Terra,

Your deluded and self-deceived as usual; You seem to always make it seem that paganism is the cure to all when it's the just opposite. Wake up out your self-righteous, liberateen paganism. It's nauseating and also, there's no such thing as the Goddess of Spirit or is that witch talk (good or bad with: I call it satanism)...

When we start trying to compare who is worse off, we've fallen for the classic trick of infighting and trying to determine who has it worse off. Instead, we can realize that racism, sexism, and classism (along with a whole other host of isms, I'm sure) are a matrix of oppression. We can choose to see that we are *all* effected, and work together to change that.

AS a Pagan woman and an elder, I am treated in the Pagan community with much more respect and deference then in the outside society. Knowledge is respected, experience is respected...grey hair is seen as a crown...on a man or woman. Women have leadership roles in Paganism. Most of us work equally with men leaders and our strengths are combined for the good of all. The outside society has not learned that yet...I know because I live in both. In the outside society the elders are shuffled off to the side...cared for as a burden, their knowledge and experiences lost when they pass on.

There is more trust and more honor in Pagan Gatherings(Sorry but there is). I have come to demand those attributes from all people. Trust and honor...and I find those worthy of my trust for their honor is rare. Not the woman running for president... I think the man who talks elegantly and who tells truth no matter if it is politically expedient is worthy of my trust. He shows honor.

Hillary is showing all the worse of women's stereotypes with none of the leadership we need. I heard her being called the more masculine one... Gender means nothing, it is what is on the inside...We do not need another macho man, even if the man is a woman in a pantsuit.
terra

I have so much to say on this subject...

I can remember when I was turned down for a credit card...was it my credit rateing? Maybe, it was real hard to have good credit when you were not allowed to have credit....I was a woman. I wanted a card in my own name but was turned down unless my husband signed. But I have all that now...my own bank account, my own credit cards, land in my name...we have come a long way baby!

But...make sure you are young and slim. That is another ism...ageism. There are all kinds of ism's. I am old, a woman, a feminist, a Pagan, and I will not let others limit my life.

Sexism is not being flirted with or over hearing inappropriate remarks by men. Sexism is when you do not get a promotion or even a job because you will just go and have a baby, so they will not bother training you. Sexism is being held to a different standard because of your gender...

But things are better for us. We vote, we are CEO's, law makers, and law breakers. We are getting more equal all the time.

terra

I have waited all my life for a woman president...a symbol that "we are equal"...then I discovered, that I might be more equal with a man fronting the project. Honor is important to me. Soothsaying. What that person stands for is more important then gender or color...this is too important then to give a vanity vote.And that goes for life...

Ahh....brother Henry, welcome to the journey. Where do we get the power to do what must be done? Its all power just different vibrations. The Goddess? ummm I will share my signature (one of them) with you:
'They wanted the real mother, the blood mother, the great womb, mother of a
fierce compassion, a woman large enough to hold all the pain, to carry it
away. What we needed was someone who bled, someone deep and rich as a field,
a wide-hipped mother, awesome, immense, women like huge soft couches,
mothers coursing with blood, mothers big enough, wide enough, for us to hide
in, to sink down to the bottom of, mothers who would breathe for us when we
could not breathe anymore, who would fight for us, who would kill for us,
die for us.'

~Janet Fitch, White Oleander
She fills you with pride to be that woman. There is no thought of second class citizen with Her. She is us.

Then there is how I believe we should live:
"There is no greater Power than Knowledge,
There is no greater Knowledge than Love,
& there is no greater Love than the Empowerment, of another."

But unfortunatly there is the reality:
'Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say that there is plenty more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.' --Frank Zappa

There is one thing about the internet...when you meet someone online and over a long time you get to knowing that person. Not the outside, the wedge stuff. You get a sense of them...not what society tells you is important...but what your spirit tells you that person is. It's closer to being truth.

Gabby, any ism is subtle. Very few times will you get it hit in the face. There are always people willing to look down at you..which is more about them then you. But it's us that are affected. I used to make 60 cents to every man's dollar...and that was after I got a promotion.

terra

And, hey, Terra! :)

I keep managing to miss the greeting today.

"This question comes from the current political world. Does Obama, a black man have it harder then Hillary a White woman?"

Personally, I think that's a backhanded way of making race and sex an issue where they, to America's credit, *weren't.*

I mean, there's been female and non-majority-racial heads of state in a *lot* of nations America likes to think we're better than for a *long* time.

That whole "Is America ready for... Umm, what England, Ireland, India... basically anyone and everyone that cared to, has been 'ready for' and *done* since the Seventies?"

I mean, *South Africa* was 'ready' for a black president. *Ireland* and *England* were *both* ready for female heads of state.

How *ready* do we need to *get?*

Ready or not, here we are.

Last President we got, no one was ready for that. After eight years I don't think we all even really register what's happened. :) I still gape in disbelief. :)

Bah, ready. :)

One way or another, Terra, I hope we get to see something the networks aren't so sure we're 'ready' for. It was *almost* like it wasn't even a big deal. :)

"What are all of us Pagans doing around here? Don't we have anywhere else to go??

And I may be the only Goddess-Worshipping Male-type person in residence.

Hail to thee all my wise and earthly friends."

Hey, Henry. :) Goddess-worshiping? .....did I miss the occasion of you actually taking the plunge? Blessed's you foots, so to speak. :)

Funny I said 'plunge,' that's usually the other folks. :)

We do have a Pagan guy or two who drop in, (Is 'Wiccan' one? I got that mixed up once and now I forget. :) )

Residence, though, I don't know. If I have to reside in Newsweek, can I have a comic strip? :)

On this:

"The male-female relationship has many (More?) of the same complexities. Which of us males (or females) wants a Symbol of our Mother telling us when to go to war or when to say "Hail to the Chief."

You've gotta understand, Henry, that you've just claimed to have stepped out of a world where that's what 'God' is about.

The Gods do not tell us when to fight or to make peace.

They're about what we fight... or better yet, make peace, *for.* What it means when it happens, yes. If we pick up a stick, it wasn't Gods that told us to pick up that stick. We did.

The Gods may be our parents, particularly in the urban tribes, but They do not expect us to remain 'children,' understand?

"It is an unpredictable and roiling stew this year."

Yeah, I know. First year for ya. ;) No turn of the Wheel like the first one you looked at. Everything new. :)

"Who SHOULD be in charge??"

You. Me. Us. Each of everyone. Anyone. All. No one. But that's 'should.' :)

"What is natural???"

Everything that is and happens. Unless you'd rather not include 'artifice.' :)

*humming Love and Rockets song: No New Tale To Tell.* :)

"What happens in the beehive???"

Buzzing? Hexagons? Girls pollenating things? Goddess? Intimidating things for lone male newbie Pagans to be thinking about? ;)

"The Ape Society???"

Much denial on both counts? Ample opportunity for satire? You'll love it. :)

" The Mafia???"

Forget about it? :)

Terra brings up revealing insights on the relative position of blacks and women.

As we get into the "crunch time" of the election, I think we will all learn some new things/old things.

The crunch that Obama is in over Rev Wright and the history of Blacks in America is an incredibly thorny unconscious issue for the country. What dem Black people mad???? Don't they realize what we given them??? The White majority in power is not equipped to understand the complexity of the master-slave relationship.

The male-female relationship has many (More?) of the same complexities. Which of us males (or females) wants a Symbol of our Mother telling us when to go to war or when to say "Hail to the Chief." Sure some do: but they ain't all women, and they ain't all of the women.

It is an unpredictable and roiling stew this year.

Who SHOULD be in charge?? What is natural??? What happens in the beehive??? The Ape Society??? The Mafia???

(not that there IS or ever HAS been a Mafia).

Hey

What are all of us Pagans doing around here? Don't we have anywhere else to go??

And I may be the only Goddess-Worshipping Male-type person in residence.

Hail to thee all my wise and earthly friends.

The one substantive thing I will add:

Power is a very complex thing: it has a dialectical and wrestling relationship with justice. The world does not naturally align to justice. It aligns to power.

Shakespeare would with hope add mercy into the mix, but mercy is really just a consolidation and legitimization of power when it is convenient to the powerful.

So: the old question KEEPS coming back: WHERE do we find the POWER to get up and do what needs to be done? The earth? The moon? The Goddess?

So, I mean, yeah, Gaby, it still exists.

The easily-chartable differences in payscale are just the sunward side of plausible denial.

"How exactly to you define sexism in America today?"

MM, Gaby. I don't. I mostly just embarrass it. :)

"I don't really see it."

You ain't the first. :) I admit it's become much less glaring, mostly, though. Yay us. :)

" Is it I who doesn't understand, or is it people who interpret any derogatory remark to a woman as sexism?"

How many would you suggest before you call it sexism?

" I mean, if some lout makes off-hand or off-color remarks about women, I ascribe that to poor upbringing and a low IQ level. To me it's not sexist, it's stupid and I will have no problem telling the person so."

My partner is a female in science. Apart from presumptions that women are simply less capable in these capacities, which linger especially in those considered tenured experts with no particular need to interact with society at large, the fact is that in spite of what people say, the payscale for the same jobs remains skewed against women, and has actually gotten worse since the Bush administration.

It's not about IQ.

Frankly, a lot of 'geeks' out there rank right up there with the worst of the Baptist preachers, probably from staring at Lara Croft's booty with a joystick, too long. Forget about it.

Not getting it? Not seeing why?

This is actually a nice and modern attitude.

It doesn't mean sexism is gone.

Frankly, people only listen to me here as much as they do, because I learned the trick of affecting male speech patterns in text. If you don't, you get dismissed, full stop, in places like this. A little eavesdropping on rhetoric classes goes a ways. :)

It's kind of progress in a way that you don't even notice, Gaby, as many have, but it doesn't remove the problem in real terms, only makes it sound stupid when it does still happen.

"I view true sexism as when a whole society views women as inferior, denies them the same rights as men, and relegates them to inferior jobs, etc. Do you really believe that kind of thinking still exists?"

Do bears crap in the woods?

When was the last time in a theological or political debate about what women should be allowed to do, did the woman involved even enter into the discussion?

Ever try and get a job in the trades? Never mind science? Oh, it's very present. The wage scales don't even take into account the people who don't get hired at all.

Merry Meet Terra and PP,

How exactly to you define sexism in America today?

I don't really see it. Is it I who doesn't understand, or is it people who interpret any derogatory remark to a woman as sexism? I mean, if some lout makes off-hand or off-color remarks about women, I ascribe that to poor upbringing and a low IQ level. To me it's not sexist, it's stupid and I will have no problem telling the person so.

I view true sexism as when a whole society views women as inferior, denies them the same rights as men, and relegates them to inferior jobs, etc. Do you really believe that kind of thinking still exists?

Racism is a different story. It still is alive and well in America and no matter how much we wish to sweep it under the carpet, invariably it rears it ugly head. I believe the ony way we can overcome it is by being honest and open about it, both the black and white communities.

Yes...the double edged sword of reason, it cuts both ways.

This question comes from the current political world. Does Obama, a black man have it harder then Hillary a White woman?

Well lets use reason.

Throughtout the history of this country there has been 30 women Gov. 7 at present.

There has been 4 Black Govenors.

As to being elected to the senate- 5 Black Senators...1 at present, Sen. Obama. 35 women have been elected as Senators there are 16 at present.

Any ism is wrong...it is segregating the groups...but for Hillary's spokespeople to say women have a harder time of it then Black men or women is wrong.

I am a woman, a white soon to be 60 year old...feminist. But I am not going to say that women have it worse...not in a long shot. We still have far to go but I see the groups being pitted against each other and being used.

It is up to us not to allow it.
terra

Mind you, I think the below, while I thought myself amusing, is hardly a complete metaphor, especially for a myth like that of the hydra: monsters left to the unconscious (say, by 'walking away' in some meanings of the phrase) can certainly still bite you. Getting alarmed that the heads grow back, though, does tend to blind people to the fact that there is a *root* to all of them, and that standing around chopping off heads isn't actually the only way to go about things. :)

When you consider the hydra as oft-depicted as a mostly-submerged aquatic creature that literally rears its ugly heads from 'beneath the waters,' the solution of cut-then cauterize of legend, of course, makes some sense, that's about patience, and thoroughness, and greets things as they come, the sword often being a symbol for, believe it or not, reason.

(You don't *have* to be Jungian to be a modern Pagan, btw, but it really helps. :) )

Ah, but do hydras have *legs?* A hydra that can't move, you can ....walk away from. :)

--2008, PP's Bestiary Of Mixed Metaphors. :)

Another great essay by Starhawk. I am in full agreement that there is no worst 'ism'. But a better analogy than two legs of the monster would be two of the many heads of the hydra of bigotry.

Arminius

Thank you, Starhawk, for putting this all in perspective. There is no worst "ism". It's all tied up in looking at people different from you as the "other".

Yep.

There is no 'worse.'

I'd say they're both quite bad enough, thanks. :)

Every form of bigotry, I'd go further to say, really feeds off all the others.... We can see how some folks try to prop up that teetering monster with religious bigotry and homophobia, for instance.

Any of these things really undermine people's consciousness of the inherent dignity to all persons, not just those subject to the bigotries, but those who perpetrate them, as well. All of us.

Whenever someone feels entitled by their status to put themselves in the role portioning out that human dignity, they lose it in themselves.