Take a Stand on Climate Change

Just because we haven't gotten hit with big hurricanes like Katrina and Rita doesn't mean that we haven't had large-scale disasters in the US. I mean, look at the 500-year flood in the Midwest this past spring. And the devastating fires in California, which were exascerbated by the drought conditions there. From what I understand, FEMA was just as competent in Iowa as they were in Louisiana and Mississippi in 2005.

Err, that should read, 'It hardly matters what you think you remember,'

Ie, if you don't understand the concepts *now,* there's no reason to expect you understood what you thought you were hearing *then,* Hammerhead. It was the *news media,* not climate scientists, constantly trying to get climatologists and meteorologists to attribute particular storms to global warming.

Which said scientists took pains to try and clarify.
But some, like Bush, just hear what they want to hear, and dismiss what they find inconvenient.

Kinda like Bush said, 'No one knew the levees would fail and New Orleans would flood.'

Except, oh, I dunno, *Discovery Channel reruns?*

Indeed, Autonomous.

And, Hammerhead, it hardly remembers what you think you remember someone you call 'Climate experts' you seek to set up as straw-men saying, *then,* if you still stubbornly refuse to understand the difference between a weather forecast and a climate model.

And for the record, I'm *glad* we haven't had any more hurricane big disasters, especially considering how the last one got managed by the guy still in office, and how FEMA's still a mess.

A big storm that doesn't make landfall is still a big storm, after all. Just the heat's going to go somewhere.

It seems as though Bushco screwed up the post-Katrina recovery so thoroughly, that God smiled on us and held back the hurricanes that were predicted to follow. This certainly sounds as plausible as any other theory.... :)

Since said recovery is still completely bollixed up several years later, maybe we'll continue to get a pass until Obama is elected - sooner or later that big democratic majority in Congress and the White House will be tested. 'Bring it on', says Obama.

Still, I can't imagine Obama saying, 'HellofajobBrownie' - it's just not in his vocabulary.

Paganplace,
I think you are right.
Afte their dire predictions for a more extreme hurricane season flopped the year after katrina,and then flopped the following year,flopping again the next year,flopping the year after that,etc,etc,etc,,,,,,, I have noticed fewer "experts" spouting off.
And why not.
After beating their collective heads againest the wall with such frequency it only stood to reason they would figure it out eventually that it feels so good once you stop.
But not to worry Paganplace, when the next severe hurricane eventually takes place 3,4,7,9 years from now they will all come out of the woodwork once again.

No, Hamerhead, I'm trying to say your assertions about the weather reports aren't meaningful in the way you claim. An individual season is subject to specific patterns and events that may arise and possibly linger over the short term, as was demonstrated in what Terra quoted. Their short-term predictions were in fact revised as well as any.

Climate models are based on longer timescales than you claim the 'Experts' you are trying to cite would say.

Certainly, warmer ocean temperatures as have been present do in fact fuel more extreme hurricanes... Hurricanes are major engines to *dissipate* that heat, and if it's not dissipating, well...

You're basically claiming we should continue to play Russian Roulette on the basis that it hasn't gone off yet, and the people who say 'There's gonna be a bang' must be full of it cause you only hear clicks in this one case.

You're belaboring a very erroneous point, Hammerhead. If you still want to argue, read from the bottom and repeat.

"which can mean a number of things"
(paganplace)

Such as no "extreme" hurricanes, the year following katrina,the year after that, the year after that,the year after that,etc,etc,etc,etc,,,,,.

In addition to the fact that you are now trying to peddle the fantasy that in the post Katrina hysteria "climate" experts projected no hurricanes of any magnitude for years to come,cooler temperatures,etc,etc,,,

This alternate universe of yours suits your fantasies just dandy.

For instance, as Terra quoted the revised *weather* model, which is different from a *climate* model:

"Following the intense activity of 2005, forecasts predicted that the 2006 season would be only slightly less active. But activity was slowed by a rapidly forming El Niño event in 2006, the presence of the Saharan Air Layer over the tropical Atlantic, and the steady presence of a robust secondary high pressure area to the Azores high centered around Bermuda."

What this means is, *other factors that arose changed the *weather* predictions for observable reasons.*

This does not relate to the *climate* model, which predicts lots of unusual and more-energetic stuff happening. Climate models are about big trends over spans of years. The weather report is about the likely effects of what's happening now. Get it?

Do you understand these terms and distinctions, Hammerhead?

" hammerhead:

"Pagenplace,
Wrong.
The experts "projected" multiple severe hurricanes, FOR THE USA, the very next season, and the season after that,to be followed by the season after that,etc,etc,etc,,,,.
I take it by your fear of answering the question of whether or not you believed their "projections" that you really don't care to discuss it.
Thats quite alright.
I would not want to discuss it either, if I were you."

Not with someone who misspells 'Pagan' twice while trying to attack same religion based on his expectations of yearly weather predictions.

Climate models are not *operative* on the same kind of yearly scale, whatever of those mysterious 'Experts' you're quoting, while demonstrating no real comprehension of what 'experts' are saying about climate models.

I remember they said there would likely be another major storm in the area the *same* year, which there was, in fact, but that's all *I* recall hearing from "Experts."

According to some, "Experts" claim dinosaurs walk with humans, you'll have to be more specific.

Climate change models do predict more extreme hurricane seasons, and more intense storms when they occur. Which can mean a number of things... None of which mean irresponsible energy policies any better for us.

You go ahead and buy up the beachfront property, if you like.

Terra Gazelle,
As long as you are so in tune with what the experts have "projected", when have they "projected" the next "severe" hurricane to hit the USA?
And when did they predict it?

Hammerhead...

I went through Katrina and Rita...no the "The experts "projected" multiple severe hurricanes, FOR THE USA, the very next season, and the season after that,to be followed by the season after that,etc,etc,etc..."did not.In fact because of the activity of 2005 they predicted less activity.

Global warming does not create hurricanes, what it does is make more severe the ones we have.

"Following the intense activity of 2005, forecasts predicted that the 2006 season would be only slightly less active. But activity was slowed by a rapidly forming El Niño event in 2006, the presence of the Saharan Air Layer over the tropical Atlantic, and the steady presence of a robust secondary high pressure area to the Azores high centered around Bermuda. There were no tropical cyclones after October 2.

Tropical Storm Alberto was responsible for two indirect deaths when it made landfall in Florida. Hurricane Ernesto caused heavy rainfall in Haiti, and directly killed at least seven in Haiti and the United States. Four more hurricanes formed after Ernesto, including the strongest storms of the season, Hurricanes Helene and Gordon. In total, the season was responsible for 14 deaths and $500 million (2006 USD) in damage. The calendar year 2006 also saw Tropical Storm Zeta, which arose in December 2005 and persisted until early January, only the second such event on record. The storm can be considered a part of the 2005 and 2006 seasons, although it occurred outside the June 1–November 30 windows during which most Atlantic basin tropical cyclones form."

Changes that would normally take thousands or millions of years is happening in a life time...people really must get past their blind ignorance.

terra

Pagenplace,
Wrong.
The experts "projected" multiple severe hurricanes, FOR THE USA, the very next season, and the season after that,to be followed by the season after that,etc,etc,etc,,,,.
I take it by your fear of answering the question of whether or not you believed their "projections" that you really don't care to discuss it.
Thats quite alright.
I would not want to discuss it either, if I were you.

"Fact: in such Cycles , take TODAY, that We must move North. And later, around 11,000 years later , move SOUTH towards the Equater when Earth become a Snow Ball mostly!"

Tidy thought, JJ, but we move north we get to try and farm *stinking methane-releasing bog.* Ever try and walk on that, never mind farm it?

Tsk. Details, details.

Also, there's no such thing as a 'mostly-snowball earth' ...There's runaway freeze or not. This is one of those things we call 'tipping points.' Feedback loops, knock-on effects, etc.

"QUESTiON: What the Hell does "PRE-APOCALYPTiC" imported thinking HELLENiCAl, Nordic, Celtic, Bavarik , Aegyptian PAGANiSM, Wicaanism, Witchism, Shamnism, Vooddoism too have to do with APOCALYPTiC "pp-Billion of CO2 talk etc..????? "

If you have to ask, you may never know. ;)

'Imported,' though? This is our home. And it involves just-plain-thinking. Though some may tell you different. ;)

"Please, like for rain, Go Dance & Wish for Some Cold-building in the North or South poles. Is there a COLD goddes? or a COLD god's? a HOT Goddes & a HOT god's??? Lotto god or Luck god(s) or Goddess(s)??""

Yes, there are, in fact. Not quite as such.

I do pray for rain, and when I do, I consult at *least* national Doppler radar when I do it. Interesting times.

Frankly, though, I'll sing Mr. Heat-Miser all vaudeville if that's what it takes to stop a few radical religious climate change deniers from playing Russian roulette with our future and not understanding statistics.

"Yes, we cling to hope, try to make it our own. Desperation does that. But we must look outwards, not inwards. A good starting point is FDR's saying, "If you're at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!". Then work your way up and out. Easier said than done."

Sometimes, the 'end of the rope,' is where you get your feet on the ground and start walking. :)

Sometimes I note our Christian friends are all full of these 'up/down' metaphors, thus always feeling to be suspended over an abyss with but one thing to cling to and, perhaps unthinkingly, upward. Always the up-down, with up good and down bad... Even 'We're all climbing the same mountain.'

But there's one thing about mountaintops. They're a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. :)

There's a whole world out here, real good, and entire. It's not all about a whole bunch of folks scrabbling up some 'rope.' The view never really changes, that way. :)

"Here I am, at the end of my rope - almost. Bankruptcy, foreclosure, unemployment. But it is at moments like these that you learn who your true friends and family are, and that it never matters what you have in this life, but who you have."

See, you might find your feet, yet. I'm a great one for forgetting about mine, myself.

And I'm sorry things aren't going well. The economics involved are real and often criminal (or newly-made *not*-criminal,) ...yet I think you have a sense of where your 'ground' is, as well.

Some ways of thinking of things essentially want to enlist everyone's energy in pulling down on ropes, which is a convenient way of keeping em from going too far, from the perspective of if you happen to believe in the ground. ;)

"Yes, God matters in my life, a lot. But I don't ask Him to bail me out. I do ask for guidance. Maybe even that is wrong."

I believe there's supposed to be a certain amount of 'Ask and ye shall receive' on that count, in your faith, Arminius. Not just, perhaps, the constant 'unworthiness.'

In a culture that likes to credit its wealth and 'success' on the favor of the only 'God,' and 'good character,' ...it often goes unspoken what that teaches people about 'failure,' ...and what constitutes 'failure' as a human.

But, really, if all this 'success' is based on ideas that are unsustainable, anyway, and, even by many conservative Christians considered, 'To be striven for in the holy capitalist way, but enjoying it is dreadful sin,' essentially, 'Make as much money as you can, then give it to us, privately....'

Where does that 'rope' really *lead?*

It reminds me of one of my more spectacular adventures in visionary realms, hanging from a rope which was attached to something which was presently, itself, falling from the sky. Into a wondrous sacred landscape.

Also, the funny old Irish 'Bricklayer's Song,' aka, 'The Sick Note' or 'Why Paddy is Not At Work Today.'

On a practical level, there's no excuse for a society as wealthy as ours having these problems we seem to insist on. Who said that 'rope' was all there was, though?

Worth looking at you

" hammerhead:

"Pagenplace,
All of the climate experts "projected" devestating hurricane on top of devestating hurricane immediatly following hurricane Katrina.
Did you believe their "projections" as well?
Or would you rather not discuss it?"

You seem to have no sense of the time scales involved, Hammerhead... (And Garyd, for that matter,)

The projections said we can expect more extremes of weather... An extremes we've had. So far, extremely *quiet* hurricane seasons (here in the Western hemisphere, there have in fact been some devastating ones in the Pacific) And there have in fact been devastating hurricanes in the Atlantic, just not ones that happened to hit the US mainland.

Still, exaggerating and disinterpreting what climate scientists said, then saying, 'Haha! They didn't match my misunderstanding!' doesn't discredit them. If we have a 'hundred year storm' every five years, that's a lot more than normal. It's looking pretty active so far this year, too.

There's no convincing evidence that waste and pollution are a *good* idea in any way, for one thing, and trying to deny the longtime scientific consensus on these thin justifications because you prefer a head-in-the-sand attitude is really misplacing where the burden of proof is at this point.

Starhawk I took a stand on climate change a very long time ago. To wit it happens. It's been happening for far longer than man has walked the earth and the great likelihood is that there is almost nothing we can do about.

http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/12/2006-probably
-coldest-year-in-last.html

All in all an extraordinarily impressive web site Including an article on CO2 insensitivity which indicates that based on various feed back loops and other interesting natural phenomenon the most heat you are going to get from CO2 over the next 200 years is about 1.1 degrees C.

Pagenplace,
All of the climate experts "projected" devestating hurricane on top of devestating hurricane immediatly following hurricane Katrina.
Did you believe their "projections" as well?
Or would you rather not discuss it?

Oh Great, Noble, Esteemed Moderator! I crawl to you on hands and knees, clad in sackcloth and ashes, tearing my hair and beard, beating my chest... I grovel and plea, weeping copiously, oh please, please, with yummy candies and sugar plums attached....

PLEASE GET RID OF JJ AND HIS SPAM, WHICH HAS DEFILED AND RUINED AT LEAST SIX BLOGS HERE IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS. IN OTHER WORDS, GET OFF YOUR LAZY ASSES AND DO YOUR FREAKIN' JOB!!!!!!

Paganplace,

Well, you can sure make me think sometimes. Stop it, it hurts! (LOL!)

The basket metaphor should be applied to life, not evangelical urges.

Yes, we cling to hope, try to make it our own. Desperation does that. But we must look outwards, not inwards. A good starting point is FDR's saying, "If you're at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!". Then work your way up and out. Easier said than done.

Here I am, at the end of my rope - almost. Bankruptcy, foreclosure, unemployment. But it is at moments like these that you learn who your true friends and family are, and that it never matters what you have in this life, but who you have.

Yes, God matters in my life, a lot. But I don't ask Him to bail me out. I do ask for guidance. Maybe even that is wrong.

There's always Hope, Arminius, ...people just try and keep it in a box when it seems all ills have been loosed upon the world. :)

I believe your religion uses a bushel basket for that metaphor. (usually, it seems, applied to *evangelizing,* not the exercise of that light)

But in my own millieu, Pandora, well, her name means All-Gifted. Given the gifts of all the Gods, including reason and courage and, well, everything humans are given.

Not to mention a while mess of trouble to bring em out, and the curiosity to open that box...

When I learned Classical myth, as a kid, she was presented as an Eve figure, ...the Hellenistic Eve, a fallen and foolish woman... And it just never made sense why, for good or ill, she clapped the box shut to hang onto Hope.

Till I lived a lot and realized, "aha, this is *people.* This is what people do. We cling to Hope, put conditions and strictures on it, claim to *have* it, but will not loose that Hope on the world. For fear of losing it, surely.

But what we cling to, try to contain in some artifice, is the one thing which needs to be loosed, even if some try to say that 'Opening that once brought disaster, don't open it again..'

But we're all, collectively, gifted by all the Gods, maybe even yours. :)

Hope isn't something to claim or contain... Hope is within us, ever fibre of our DNA, everything that lives and breathes and goes on. ...we just tend to shut it away from ourselves for fear we or the world will wreck it.

It's not about the box. Conditions, artifice, clinging, control, none of these things. We already have all of that which we need. And nothing to lose by letting that box open once more.

What I see from the 'Evangelical' set on this issue is, 'Everything'll be spiff when everyone's the 'right kind' of Christian.'

Time's up on that. Even if it ever worked.

This issue's maybe about all of us living together like we mean it.

There's always *hope,* ...this is everyone's brithright. It's the conditions and words and strictures and... 'boxes' some insist on that are holding us up.

Hi, Paganplace,

Not all evangelicals are denying global warming. There is a split developing; of course, the old guard claim that global warming is a fraud, even a left wing plot. But other evangelicals are very concerned with global warming - among that number is Rick Warren. As one other evangelical put it, "We should be concerned with God's agenda, not the agenda of the republican party". There may well be hope.

So, Hammerhead, I still think it's *very* relevant if these questions are asked in front of audiences who may have among them, the very sources of all the corporately-and-politically-exploited denial about our needs and priorities and responsibilities in this matter.

In discussing these matters with a number of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, it's clear that they're the extreme end of a belief system which is almost temperamentally-*incapable* of thinking organically, everything's a separate, legalistic 'issue' which is, in the main, only compared to a much-translated *book,* and what's said about that book, ...the only concern really being the salvation of souls as individuals, that pop out of nowhere and go on to some eternal paradise or torment...

Of course, since according to that book all people are essentially supposed to be the exact same, unless they're of a different gender, there's some difficulty among Evangelicals in really seeing and valuing the difference between 'self and other,' ...thus things become all about *control,* particularly sexual control, *everything* ends up being about second-or-third-hand judgments, ...while no one *really* makes any responsible decisions, among people and a world that *is* diverse, and ongoing, and is about cycles of birth and death and rebirth, cause, and effect, and scales that no vicarious 'mastery' can really cope with.

It may feel good to 'learn' just *enough* scienceyness to feel more convinced it's OK to just believe in some strictures of a religion and blindly ignore the effects of our actions as a society, but that won't fix anything.

Civilization, is somewhat organic, and dependent on another organism: the Earth it dwells upon. As a system, not disparate pieces meant to be exploited in the name of an 'architect' who said 'Exploit this and breed a lot,' Civilization depends on organizing, going from an animalistic feeder to a *thinking and feeling and interactive being that understands it's a sort of organic creature,* like the humans it's *for.* And organize, we must.

Casting the problem as too horrible to face doesn't really help, though that's usually the alternative preachers put in the mouths of environmentalists, so they say, "Believe in me or believe in this heretical end of the world, (as opposed to our tidy or Left-behind-video-game-worthy-one,)" ...so people try and blindly-punish those called 'sinners,' while themselves overconsuming to distract themselves from the sense of impending doom we're all used to at least since the Cold War.

It's an oft-unacknowledged effect of having lived under that fear of random and probably accidental nuclear devastation, and all the religious adaptation of Evangelicals who thought that would be the instrument of Apocalypse,' that, well, when faced with that possibility, people would often just *shut down.*

Climate change will have real consequences. But we can get through them, even prosper through them, if we get our collective heads out of the sand and take the actions that remain possible.

We have the tech, and more's coming.

But do we have the will? Even just the *attention.* We *waste* so much simply cause we don't *pay attention.*

And maybe a Pagan view isn't the worst idea ever to present the flocks with. To think of something other than who gets sent to the lake of fire over some peccadillo or desire to materially-hurt gay people or orient their sense of some threat to Non-Christian people, or to bring about other self-fulfilling 'prophecies.'

I mean, you guys are kind of *obsessed* with breeding, but always vote for the guys who deregulate the chemicals a fetus is exposed to... and don't offer those unborn much of a future...

Talk about trying to stamp out gays and vote for the guys who say it's OK to expose people to hormones and chemicals that in the laboratory make animals *gay,* (Then insist, 'It's not the bisphenols and hormones giving us more queer folks than we used to think we saw, it's an evil choice!')

Talk about 'rural values' and vote for the agribusiness guys, while complaining hardworking rural people are supporting the lifestyles of urban folks, when actually the tax money goes *the other way.*

Talk about wall Street numbers as signs of a good economy, when the linkage between how those people are doing and what the real American worker gets for their efforts went *away* early in the Bush administration...

Blame terrorism and a chosen war for a recession that started hitting workers the moment Bush took office, and deregulated energy barons in Texas, knowing Bush wouldn't pursue them, all but shut down the Port of California so they could get more money via brownouts.

But in those days, Bush was 'Talking To God' and he was every evangelical's darling, it seemed.

And if he gagged all the scientists in his administration, well, they were idiot evolutionists, right?

And then you *re-elected* the guy. Like he said, 'Fool me once, shame on, ... err....'

So, yeah, Hammerhead. It's time for people who consider themselves 'Values Voters' to be presented with the question of what's *really* of value. Moralistic pandering, or a civilized future.

Well, Hammerhead, those things took a lot longer to happen than the human-induced climate change we're looking at, and at least one *still* represented an evolutionary bottleneck for the human species: it's been charted that our numbers were reduced to a matter of thousands, from which everyone now alive arose, migrating as these changes happened. Destabilizing the atmosphere by digging up and burning millions of years worth of stored carbon in a matter of decades is a whole different matter.

If you don't want to see the practical realities of the projected sea level rises and all the knock-on effects these tipping points are causing and likely to cause, consider there's just no wisdom in waste and excess and running a civilization into the ground... we *know* that it's unwise to keep fossil fuels as the lynchpin of an ever-expanding energy-hungry lifestyle, to keep increasing consumption even as supplies dwindle and become more and more inaccessible.

This civilization we enjoy was *expensive.* It must adapt, or all that will be wasted. Frankly, we can trash it and go back to the Iron Age any old time. Those of us who survive the transition, that is.

I suggest we give this advanced civilization thing a real try. Take our wondrous abilities and capacities and *use* them to make something sustainable. Save the oil for what it's *really best at* and harness the renewable energy all around us... Decide what's really important to us and what's just habit. And do something about it.

Sooner would be better.

Sooner would *have* been better.

This near-unbridled competitive capitalism is based on an endless expansion that is simply not possible, and in its current form, does little benefit to most people.

Has its good points, some of which got us this far, but it's about to eat its grazing grounds bare, is already fouling the breeding grounds, and the results won't be pretty. End of the world? Or humanity? Again, Likely nothing so tidy.

But, really consider if all these interdependent systems start being overwhelmed or starved. ...look around at the people... What kind of shape would the survivors among them be in to carry on what we find important? What happens if we have big crop failures, flooding of coastal cities, and all the disease that comes of these things?

And that ought to sober the thoughts of even those who believe we're all once-born.

I think civilization is worth saving. Or at least improving, even if it comforts you to figure we're all a bunch of kooks.

May we all live to *keep* calling scientists and folks like me a bunch of cooks.

But I assure you there's some work involved in that, not spending all that energy trying to say 'It's not our fault, so keep making it worse,' or 'The corporations that profit off this say it's untenable to do anything about it, so keep making it worse,' etc. etc. Etc.

We'd still be breathing leaded gas exhaust and the people of LA couldn't go out without gas masks by now, if the same corporations had had their way.

What was the "tipping point" that turned lush green moist norhtern africa into a dry inhospitable wasteland?
And what was the "tipping point" that turned the warm lush arctic region into a frozen wasteland?

" Franklin:

"Uhh... I'm not sure that a pagan witch should be included in the quizzing of the candidates at a Christian event. "

Well, this is something of a theoretical exercise, anyway, as this church will be the ones asking the questions, ...but when, clearly, the loudest people in climate-change denial use a Christian fear of evolution science to 'support' their notions that irresponsible energy policies are somehow the 'godly' position, even as it services the greed of those who act in just the opposite way Christianity claims to be about...

Well, I think maybe another perception *is* required.

Claiming more environmental people are out to screw up the economy, when insistence on waste and irresponsibility all these past years, already *has* screwed up the economy.... for everyone but the fatcats who've been profiting off poisoning the future, and resisting any positive action on these issues since long before it was too late to undo completely, ...*they* screwed up the economy. Drilling for more oil is unlikely to help the economy, even when that comes online. It's not going to make things the way they were in the Nineties, though.

When we could have been working on a better economy, a better energy infrastructure, and greener tech, instead of nationally-obsessing on a Clinton indiscretion.

These days, a lot of conservative Christians are more concerned about who I snuggle with than they are about the world their kids will inherit.

We're not talking about anything so tidy as a religious or even nuclear Apocalypse... We're talking about... Serious repercussions, though, which I assure you that a head-in-the-sand attitude won't dispel.

We have the means and technology to organize, and prepare, and mitigate the consequences of what brought us here. We're too dependent on other nations where we outsourced a lot of the things this society needs... When it stops being cheaper to import all that stuff than to make it ourselves, we could be up a creek with a lot of useless electronics and not much to help us get by. It's not a pretty picture, ...we get sea level rise, where's everyone gonna go?

If it takes a Pagan or a Witch to ask these questions... Well, so be it. Someone's gotta do it.

HANSEN ...

What's a "major climate change scientist?"

Wow, Starhawk! You must have kicked over a lot of rocks and let the nut cases crawl out from under them. Either that, or they're taking a break from watching the jingoistic NBC coverage of the Olympics.

Global climate change IS real. We don't see the effects of it as much in the US's temperate latitudes. Go up to Alaska and see the effects of it there.

Fortunately, both candidates acknowledge that climage change is a problem, and supposedly have plans to solve it. Well, McCain's involves more drilling for oil, I'm sure. :/ Unfortunately, the one poster is correct - however moderate Saddleback Church is, they wouldn't let the likes of US in there for their big "suck up to the Christians" event.

Gore-bull warming is a hoax. Environmentalism is a sham to destroy our independent, free market republic and replace it with internationalism, socialism and big government control of our lives. The world goes through natural cycles of warming and cooling. There's nothing man made about this. It's another liberal cult like evolution.

The only danger is today to our freedom from the big city liberals and in the U.N. from the third world America haters. Too bad McCain buys into this stuff. We need a real conservative like Fred Thompson or Duncan Hunter running, not this RINO.

"We in the developed world need to reduce our carbon footprint by 90 per cent"

90%, really? Wow, that's barely noticeable! We'll need to permanantly park nearly all modes of transportation, shut down most, if not all power plants, shut down a majority of factories and farm operations (you think the economy is sick now?).... Hey, wait! This just might be the ticket! Because at some point in this scenario we would no longer be a 'developed' nation and your footprint rules wouldn't apply anymore!

The reason third world/undeveloped nations have a smaller carbon footprint is because they are poor, starving, diseaase ridden, miserable places to live, not because they are more sensitive to nature's need, or smarter than us.

What are the flaws and errors in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Paganism and Buddhism???

The candidates shouldn't be at a Christian event, and that's the problem. The candidates should confine their public appearances to secular/non-religious environments only.

That way, every voter and every question becomes equally valid - now that would be the truly Constitutional way to do things, as intended by the Founders. The bright line between Church and State should be preserved at all costs.

Uhh... I'm not sure that a pagan witch should be included in the quizzing of the candidates at a Christian event.

On the other hand, it's Rick Warren, and he is the most syncretistic of the syncretic postchristian megachurch leaders.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...we're all going to die...oh the humanity.