Bad Moon Waning

PAGANPLACE

I am not defending myself, I am just trying to be as simple and to the point as I can be in what I write.

Maybe one day we will chat over a cup of coffee and thanks for writing.

A simple "job" for a simple man, God does work in mysterious ways, He can be quite surprising, to put it mildly.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ah, welcome to the Internet, I guess.

'Visuals' have a tendency to be about what you bring with you, anyway, along with naratives. Nature of the equipment. Interesting when you couldn't have, by ordinary means.

But, still wondering what you're driving at, here. No need to defend yourself, if that's all it is, you're among friends.

The Net. You get to talk to folks from all over, and you can't just have em around for coffee. (It's too bad, too, I got some good stuff today. :) )

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "Also wondering what you're trying to imply with making something of the 'see' distinction. I assure you I'm not talking about 'mere seeing' in whatever way you imply: that's just a turn of phrase.

I do suspect some condescension there, ...and wondering what it is you mean to say by all this."

On other sites, when I have mentioned that I have met God, there have been people that have asked me: "What does He look like?", so now, not always, but usually I try to make a point of the fact that even tho I have met God, I haven't seen Him in the physical sense, that is why I have phrased it that way.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Also wondering what you're trying to imply with making something of the 'see' distinction. I assure you I'm not talking about 'mere seeing' in whatever way you imply: that's just a turn of phrase.

I do suspect some condescension there, ...and wondering what it is you mean to say by all this.

Ok.... Just trying to see what you're getting at, there, Thomas.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "I'm not sure what you're trying to contest, there, Thomas".

If you read what I wrote, I didn't contest anything, I just said, "No, but that doesn't change the fact that I met God the Trinity and that I also met satan."

You also wrote, " I've had personal experiences of my Gods, and without even anyone having taught me what to *expect* to see.".

First off, I did not see God, I met God and second, I was not taught what to "expect" to see.

Meeting God and meeting satan came as quite a shock to me to put it mildly. I never ever expected to meet God during my earthly life and I was praying for God to rip out my "black hole" of a heart not for God the Father to come into it but that was how He revealed Himself to me.

As I have said before, God chose me to speak and I have said YES. Posting on these sites is one of the ways that I am attempting to do the "job" that God chose me for.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I'm not sure what you're trying to contest, there, Thomas. People do certainly have personal experiences of other faces of Deity, shall we say, than are acceptable in certain other religions, ....that you believe to have seen your own doesn't change these experiences.

Certainly someone claiming to have seen figures from one religion doesn't mean the others are unreal, if that's what you were trying to get at. Commonly, Christians assume that we don't have our own religious experiences, though, and I assure you that's not the case. I've had personal experiences of my Gods, and without even anyone having taught me what to *expect* to see.

It was later when I found out how old these 'faces' were. Doesn't get too much more 'real' than that, by my standards, ...and it's a heck of a thing.

Pagans aren't generally in the business of disbelieving in other people's Gods, though obviously, to us, claims that *only* these Gods are real, or attached claims of how that is purported to mean the world works, just don't make sense to us.

ROBIN LANDSEADEL

You wrote, "Okay, Mr. Baum. I can say [with equal conviction] that I met Kali. I can also say that meeting Kali changed my life permanently. I can say that I've seen the the auras---the energy fields and outlines of the souls---of trees. I've seen other things that, if not necessarily entirely contradicting the Catholic world view at the very least constitute big-time heresy.

Are you about to say "whatever" to me?"

No, but that doesn't change the fact that I met God the Trinity and that I also met satan.

You also wrote, "Who is right? You? Me? Both? Neither? And who's to judge?"

I am not here to judge, I am here to do the "job" that God choose for me to do and He will see me thru.

You also wrote, "I believe in Giordano Bruno's concept of the infinite universe, now known as "String Theory," and Bruno's idea that the "World As It Is" is too great for limited definitions of deity.".

Some people do seem to have a very small idea of God but just because some have ideas such as that, does not mean that God is anything like some say. God is a Being of Pure Love.

You also wrote, "Starhawk and Z. Budapest and Mary Daly and the Hopi are right, the world is out of balance.".

I don't know if I would call it out of balance but the world is a mess.

You also wrote, "The dominant paradigm of " 'God the Father' and only 'God the Father' " is a big part of the problem.".

As I said, I met God and He is a Trinity not just as you say, "only 'God the Father', and God did give us free will, what one does with their free will is their choice.

You also wrote, "I don't just think about that, I work with that. Every Saturday I volunteer for Food not Bombs. Most of the fruits and vegetables we use were on their way to the trash can."

There is a lot more thrown away than just the fruits and the vegetables, we have been blest with such abundance in this country that some take it for granted and in some ways it is built right into the system.

Two of the things that I have said many times: 'God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof' and 'It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows'.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

MM, Robin. Yeah, it's appalling what happened in the Twin Cities, and how blithely the press ended up treating being kept away from the protestors and police raids and the beatings and the repeated taserings.

Not that I think much of Mary Daly as having represented Paganism... It seemed her stuff about her idea of 'Witchcraft' was nothing more than an act of angry political deconstruction, no real spiritual content *to* it. ...I've read her books, everyone was once upon a time, and even seen her lecture, which occasioned probably pretty much everyone dropping interest in her like a hot potato, really. I wasn't feeling any too charitable toward the males of the species at the time, either, but she certainly wasn't about any 'balance.' Kind of off doing her own thing and all.

I think eventually Pagan culture is really going to have to come to terms with the more 'civilized' male aspects of the God, maybe befitting the rather more limtied role of *Kings* in modern life. But there's stuff to reclaim, there, too.

For good reasons, this often isn't a comfortable prospect, after all the centuries of abuse of this notion, (And I'm not *just* talking about what we usually mean when we refer to 'patriarchal religion.') Urbanized Western civilization seemed to be *just starting to come to grips with this,* when we had our development arrested by the imposition of exclusivist monotheism. But there was a tension there, particularly as you look at the Roman Empire, where you had divine emperors in some tension with Goddess religion... something that someone essentially took the easy way out by giving one King-God total authority, through, of course, imperially-empowered and unquestionable earthly representatives.

I like to look at how a certain number of takes on the Arthurian myths really put in perspective how we all seem to feel that that lack of balance came about, (In England, in this case) ...obviously of dubious historicity at best, but as a myth, kind of showing how we ...and the Christians, could conceivably get along as people of a shared history.

All of us have a shared history, both Christian and Pagan, and maybe we're not meant to pick a side in certain manners when the 'war' someone made is really between parts of all of us.

Which isn't to advocate trying to combine two different religions, but maybe to realize that these are both part of ourselves as people who have been through these histories.

We don't have to see these things as the Christians *say* to, but one day we'll all have to come to terms.

THOMAS BAUM:
"This ties in with me saying that I can also understand why people can be thinking "whatever" when I flat out say that I have met God, the Trinity, and I have spelled out how I met God in previous postings. It was God's doing. Also when I met satan, it was God's doing, it wasn't what I originally thought after it happened that God siced satan on me but that God allowed satan to do to me what he did."

Okay, Mr. Baum. I can say [with equal conviction] that I met Kali. I can also say that meeting Kali changed my life permanently. I can say that I've seen the the auras---the energy fields and outlines of the souls---of trees. I've seen other things that, if not necessarily entirely contradicting the Catholic world view at the very least constitute big-time heresy.

Are you about to say "whatever" to me?

Who is right? You? Me? Both? Neither? And who's to judge?

I believe in Giordano Bruno's concept of the infinite universe, now known as "String Theory," and Bruno's idea that the "World As It Is" is too great for limited definitions of deity. Giordano Bruno was quite famously, and awfully, tortured and burned at the stake for telling the truth.

In lieu of any definitive evidence I'm left to consider actions, not claims, scutwork and elbow grease, not theory, the negative imprint of God the Father on the body of the Goddess we call Earth or Gaia, not any promises of some future reward entirely lacking in physical evidence. Starhawk and Z. Budapest and Mary Daly and the Hopi are right, the world is out of balance. The dominant paradigm of " 'God the Father' and only 'God the Father' " is a big part of the problem.

THOMAS BAUM:
"This may or may not be an exaggeration but there is probably enough food in America's trash cans to feed those on earth that are hungry, have you ever thought about that?"

I don't just think about that, I work with that. Every Saturday I volunteer for Food not Bombs. Most of the fruits and vegetables we use were on their way to the trash can. We intercept and re-distribute that food. In thanks for our actions, the powers that be used the so-called "Patriot Act" to raid Food not Bombs groups at the same time they busted Amy Goodman and Starhawk's permaculture people over in the Twin Cities. Doubtless the police who committed these acts were doing them for "God and Country."

Anyway, see what I meant, now, Arminius? Sorry it made you uncomfortable.

"This may or may not be an exaggeration but there is probably enough food in America's trash cans to feed those on earth that are hungry, have you ever thought about that?"

Yeah, considering I ate there, thanks.

""And "Handy if you want to have a 'war,' but not exactly a circumstance which brings out the best in 'human nature.","

"have you ever noticed that not only war but also natural disasters seem to bring out both the best and the worst of human nature?"

Yes.

"Do you have an answer as to why sometimes the same set of circumstances bring out totally different reactions from different people?"

Yes.

You've had the short form just today.

Disingenuous, Thomas:

"Do you think that sex is the totality of life?"

No, of course not.

Particularly not in my case.

But it's a real and potent part.

And a good part. Not one to channel to aggression.

"Do you think that sex is just some instinctual act?"

Not 'just,' no.

Unless someone makes it too shameful to face consciously, in which case they get drunk and do the irresponsible cause you can't wish away instinct.

To my folk, it's a sacred communion and celebration.

What do you take me for? Read again.

"Do you think that someone imposing their sexuality on another is fine?"

Of course not. Why are you implying this?

PAGANPLACE

Hi, wish you well.

You wrote, " Part of the problem is that a lot of these ideas that some seek to impose are really modeled on Bronze Age behavior,", what I am saying is that we are not to impose ourselves or our beliefs on others, we should try to live our life not other's, it is NOT about imposition.

And "No, goodness and compassion aren't alien to human nature, ...never were: someone just *taught* a lot of people it is.", there do seem to be other things that are just as not alien to human nature either.

And "In reality, a lot of bad stuff comes down cause that's what you get when you frustrate people's sexuality with shame and threats of death and pain,".

Do you think that sex is the totality of life?

Do you think that sex is just some instinctual act?

Do you think that someone imposing their sexuality on another is fine?

By the way, the preceding three questions are something to think of, I am not asking for an answer, lots of people have many different ideas in the sexual area but as far as I am concerned forcing oneself on another is wrong sexually or otherwise.

I would think that there have been sexually fulfilled people that have done things that are just plain not nice, so to speak, and also others that have done great good and I would also think that there have been sexually frustrated people that have done things that are just plain not nice, so to speak, and also others that have done great good, so to imply that the "shame and threats of death and pain," could be the cause of all of the troubles of the world just does not seem to add up.

And "Handy if you want to have a 'war,' but not exactly a circumstance which brings out the best in 'human nature.", have you ever noticed that not only war but also natural disasters seem to bring out both the best and the worst of human nature?

Do you have an answer as to why sometimes the same set of circumstances bring out totally different reactions from different people?

Then, "walking around figuring 'Oh, those people are evil, cause the don't have this way to 'redeem human nature' ...is one of the prime dynamics in these evils occuring.", seems as if you are pretty much saying the same thing that you seem to be putting down.

By the way, Jesus did not come to redeem "human nature", God becoming One of us is just part of God's Plan for ALL to be in His Kingdom. It is not about "as long as I get to the 'good place'" which so many seem to settle for, or as I refer to it as the 'good enough news'.

As I have said before and I repeat, I can not live anyone else's life.

Then "Ah. Who taught you that 'free will' was a choice between only two things, one bad and one good?", no one taught me that but I have been on this planet long enough to know that we do not treat each other as we should and that has also included me.

And "What happens when people with that ingrained dualism disagree on something? Presuming one doesn't want to admit they're 'evil,' where does that leave everyone else?", I can't and won't even try to live anyone else's life but if you think that the world is perfect then fine but my "job" is just to be a messenger, it is not to try and perfect the world because I can't and God is not going to, but the seventh day will arrive, the new heavens and the new earth, exactly how, I do not know.

You wrote, "Sometimes how we *see* things is actually the root of the problem.", not only how we "see" things but also pretending that some things have never happened but couldn't these be attributed to our 'nature'?

Then, "If we were evolved to hurt each other so, we wouldn't suffer so much ourselves when we do. Whether we recognize it or not.", you may not like the word "conscience" but you have just gave a pretty good definition of one.

Then " Frankly, people are taught a view of reality that's still based in times of scarcity and conflict and other things we just don't need right now and right here.", actually there are places on this planet and thanks to modern communications most people at least know of some of them, that are in the midst of scarcity and conflict right now even tho there is plenty of food for everyone on this planet but is it getting to them???

This may or may not be an exaggeration but there is probably enough food in America's trash cans to feed those on earth that are hungry, have you ever thought about that?

Sometimes the scarcity is due to man-made situations, so yes, we do live in a time of scarcity and conflict considering that America is not the whole world and for that matter there is also scarcity and conflict in America whether we will admit it or not, pretending does not make it go away.

We can only do what we can do, we should not let the fact that we will never totally alleviate all 'problems' to paralyze us from even trying to do what we can.

Then "If one group calling another evil, look what happens when the assessment is mutual.

That's not human nature, that's *dehumanization.*", can this be a case of 'semantics', I refer to it as "demonizing" rather than "dehumanizing" and haven't we been doing it for quite awhile, one of the things that I have said before is that man has not changed since Adam, as in since man has been man, and what this means is that "human nature" hasn't changed one bit, O yes our toys have gotten very sophisticated, O yes we have figured out how lots of things work and how they fit together in the natural world but have we changed, we may change the words but the meaning is the same. By man in this paragraph, I am referring to mankind.

Then "That's what it becomes. People who are conditioned with certain beliefs are *inherently* insecure, both cause they're taught they live in a world full of evil people, and because they themselves feel they're hung over a pit of eternal fires,".

First off, this statement is a good example of stereotyping.

Second, there have been some people in this world that have been very secure about themselves that have brought much "unniceness", so to speak, upon multitudes.

Then " It certainly won't get better without a little more faith in human nature.", which person's human nature, may I ask?

And "Goodness cannot be *imposed.* Maybe negotiated. Certainly increased by passing it on. :), I know and I think you know that it can not be negotiated but I agree, it can be increased by passing it on, whether it increases on the other or just increases on oneself, it is never lost.

I would like to say something about God or about Love since They are One and the Same. Love is what it is all about, the word itself may have been trampled almost to unrecognition but it is that simple.

God is not the egomaniac that some seem to think that He Is.

I would also like to repeat two things:

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi, again, Thomas. (I may be quoting a lot here, pardon any errors. :) _

""When you wrote, "Actually, I wouldn't. Thomas.", personally when I look not only at the world today but at the known history of mankind, I just cannot agree with you on this, even tho I may wish it were not so, reality has a way of being real."

'Reality' has a way of being 'real,' but reality is not the words about it. Part of the problem is that a lot of these ideas that some seek to impose are really modeled on Bronze Age behavior, speaking of history... And became part of the problem.

No, goodness and compassion aren't alien to human nature, ...never were: someone just *taught* a lot of people it is. Living in these models of 'reality' just tends to stress out our instincts, much to our detriment.

In reality, a lot of bad stuff comes down cause that's what you get when you frustrate people's sexuality with shame and threats of death and pain, then offer them 'outsiders' to channel the resulting aggression toward. Handy if you want to have a 'war,' but not exactly a circumstance which brings out the best in 'human nature.'

"I know that I have done wrong."

People do do wrong, yes. But generally out of fear or other negative emotions and dynamics they aren't fully aware of.

"I have met lots of good people both in my native country and overseas. But to think that people are not only capable of doing great evil but actually do great evil sometimes even saying that they are doing it for your own good, to me is ignoring reality."

Oh, I'm very aware, particularly of the latter. This doesn't mean it's cause of a 'fallen' human nature that is inherently evil. In fact, walking around figuring 'Oh, those people are evil, cause the don't have this way to 'redeem human nature' ...is one of the prime dynamics in these evils occuring.

Evil's a tricky word to bandy about.

But a lot of what we'd call that comes from people trying to deal with irrational shame, fear, and insecurity... some of which is cultivated by the very ingrained religious ideas, and resulting cycles of abuse, from the most egregious to the most subtly-demeaning paradigms of human valuelessness.

As social creatures, we're vulnerable to these instincts getting turned around against the very civilizations we seem to build.

"I have heard other people bring up the term, duality, well in some ways 'duality' is what free will is about."

Ah. Who taught you that 'free will' was a choice between only two things, one bad and one good?

What happens when people with that ingrained dualism disagree on something? Presuming one doesn't want to admit they're 'evil,' where does that leave everyone else?

Frankly, this is where you get people wishing and doing each other harm in the name of 'Ultimate Good,' and alll the general hysteria we see regarding this 'Culture War' and all.

"We have a choice in what we do and if you think that all people always do what they feel is best for their fellow man, then there is nothing that I can say except that there is no way that I could possibly agree with you, as I said reality speaks for itself. At least that is my opinion."

Reality is not the same thing as how we may be taught to *interpret* reality. Sometimes how we *see* things is actually the root of the problem.

Sometimes people think it's *impossible* to believe humans are essentially good. And this leads to many 'evils,' routine and appalling both.

If we were evolved to hurt each other so, we wouldn't suffer so much ourselves when we do. Whether we recognize it or not.

"Have you ever heard the sayings: Dog eat dog world, the rat race, going out to make a killing rather than going out to make a living and there are other ones, sometimes the very language can speak more than it might seem on the surface."

These are part of what people have made, in their fear and shame and hurt and blindness, not proof that goodness and compassion are alien to us. Frankly, people are taught a view of reality that's still based in times of scarcity and conflict and other things we just don't need right now and right here.

Frankly, much of this stuff comes of importing cultural ideas evolved for *deserts* into places whose nature is one of more abundance.

"Saying that there is no good in the world as far as I am concerned is just the mirror image as saying that there is no evil in the world."

Many people's ideas of 'good' and 'evil' are to me, two sides of a bad penny. I'm certainly no one to say there's no evil in the world, ...though I don't think it's productive to name it. Especially not to label a person with it.

If one group calling another evil, look what happens when the assessment is mutual.

That's not human nature, that's *dehumanization.*

"It is sort of like saying that there is no joy in the world because there is sorrow in the world actually there is both joy and sorrow in this world."

Hey, I'm Irish. :)

"You also wrote, "There's inborn goodness, Thomas, and I think that's what scares a lot of people.", some people may refer this to being made in the Image and Likeness to God. You wrote 'I think that's what scares a lot of people' this made me think of how some people say that it doesn't matter what they do as long as they know God's Name, which is not true because it does matter what one does and why one does it and what one knows."

Well, what I meant about the notion of people's inborn goodness *scaring people,* well, a) would mean people might have to face some *justifiable* shame about how they treat *others* instead of defending how they themselves acted out of induced shame, fear and aggression. If people are already 'inherently evil,' and have this shame induced in them from birth, well, that makes it awfully convenient not to expect better of yourself. And b) If you're an inherently good creature, then instead of spending your life trying to appease somebody, or label someone as 'worse' in the eyes of a God or Devil to divert scary judgment from onesself, you've got to get out and accomplish something positive. Which takes effort.

"You also spoke of "more 'control'", I see your point but that is not what it is about even tho plenty have twisted it into that."

That's what it becomes. People who are conditioned with certain beliefs are *inherently* insecure, both cause they're taught they live in a world full of evil people, and because they themselves feel they're hung over a pit of eternal fires, ....you bet they want some control, and that's kind of natural, too... it's just they end up having to go about it in certain harmful ways.

"Could this be how "human nature" sometimes takes things and twists them: such as some seem to think that with enough security and rules and regulations that they will have freedom when in reality all that they will have is a lock-step, cookie-cutter existence and even then there will not be security because by the very laws of mother nature, so to speak, it is an insecure world."

Insecure if you fear death in certain ways. Insecure if you'll be ostracized if you don't live according to a narrow model, and compete with others successfully at it, at that.

Our natures as humans are *made* for this world. Made for both fellowship and *challenge,* ...this is how we grow, life to life and on. The notion or model that this is one life that comes out of nowhere and is then judged 'forever,' either with great pleasure or great pain, doesn't generally commend one to more productive dynamism....

Of course those models are insecure, they're meant to keep theocratic elites in *power,* and isolated from neighboring tribes, (until they got aggressive and decided to try and *absorb* all other tribes in the world. Again out of insecurity.

Human nature require both security and challenge. This is what we're 'made' for.

The insecurity of certain models we're taught isn't just blind to and denigrating of human nature... It actually spiritually-and-mentally *traumatizes* people. And what you get out of traumatized people can come out a number of different ways.

"It seems that if it comes from inside that is one thing but if it has to be imposed from outside that is quite another."

Well, that would seem to be the situation. It certainly won't get better without a little more faith in human nature. People trying to save their own butts in a 'fallen' world full of 'evil-natured' humans, believing their very 'souls' are at stake for ever and ever, ...don't really have much chance of bringing out the best in each other, do they?

Goodness cannot be *imposed.* Maybe negotiated. Certainly increased by passing it on. :) As for 'reality,' well, I'm a little more concerned at times with the *illusions* someone crafted... about ourselves, about each other, about the common dream ...and world, we live in.

PAGANPLACE

When you wrote, "Actually, I wouldn't. Thomas.", personally when I look not only at the world today but at the known history of mankind, I just cannot agree with you on this, even tho I may wish it were not so, reality has a way of being real.

I know that I have done wrong.

I have met lots of good people both in my native country and overseas. But to think that people are not only capable of doing great evil but actually do great evil sometimes even saying that they are doing it for your own good, to me is ignoring reality.

I have heard other people bring up the term, duality, well in some ways 'duality' is what free will is about. We have a choice in what we do and if you think that all people always do what they feel is best for their fellow man, then there is nothing that I can say except that there is no way that I could possibly agree with you, as I said reality speaks for itself. At least that is my opinion.

Have you ever heard the sayings: Dog eat dog world, the rat race, going out to make a killing rather than going out to make a living and there are other ones, sometimes the very language can speak more than it might seem on the surface.

Saying that there is no good in the world as far as I am concerned is just the mirror image as saying that there is no evil in the world.

It is sort of like saying that there is no joy in the world because there is sorrow in the world actually there is both joy and sorrow in this world.

You also wrote, "There's inborn goodness, Thomas, and I think that's what scares a lot of people.", some people may refer this to being made in the Image and Likeness to God. You wrote 'I think that's what scares a lot of people' this made me think of how some people say that it doesn't matter what they do as long as they know God's Name, which is not true because it does matter what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

You also spoke of "more 'control'", I see your point but that is not what it is about even tho plenty have twisted it into that.

Could this be how "human nature" sometimes takes things and twists them: such as some seem to think that with enough security and rules and regulations that they will have freedom when in reality all that they will have is a lock-step, cookie-cutter existence and even then there will not be security because by the very laws of mother nature, so to speak, it is an insecure world.

It seems that if it comes from inside that is one thing but if it has to be imposed from outside that is quite another.

Thanks for the post.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Forgive infinitely, judge no one, condemn no one, love your enemies, do good to those that don't do it in return, pray for those that hurt you, do unto others as you would want them to do unto you even if they don't: these are just some of the things that He spoke of; very simple, direct and to the point but very much against, I would say, most people's basic nature or instinct, wouldn't you?"

Actually, I wouldn't. Thomas. I think that's something some people *sell,* and others live down to. We're social animals, not isolated breeding pairs. Our instincts are... certainly more complex, all full of dominance behavior and other things which are turned to some folks' repressions and 'holy wars,' ...but there is also a will to communication and cohesion and cooperation... Some religions take all the credit for this, but we're born with these, too.

Normally, there's a balance, but the dualistic thinking that runs so deep tends to polarize us against each other.

That'd take a lot of typing to explicate. An example is how some religious points of view think everyone is supposed to be a breeder, and fixate on coercing and driving out those who aren't so inclines, ...then wonder why parenting and keeping afloat is so hard and stressful.

It's cause someone has set up a monolithic model which is only *part* of humanity, and tend to isolate that part from the rest of us.... and say one can only be all right by emulating them, and competing on their terms.

There's a lot more to this than a 'fallen world' with a model of 'saving' by 'suffering' at others hands. But that's what people think of when someone refers to that 'God,' essentially a big alpha ape in the sky. (I always joke that these types are so scared of the idea we evolved from primates cause they're terrified someone will notice the resemblance. :) )

There's inborn goodness, Thomas, and I think that's what scares a lot of people.

In some ways, the discussions below are all about being 'saved' or 'damned,' ...no mere human fellowship will do for some, ...folks seem to want to be helpless and 'fallen' enough to merit 'saving' or else have someone to blame. It's not something that brings out the best in us.

As 'praying for those who hurt us goes,' what do you think all these 'spells' are for? Not that there's really any safe place to ask a hurricane to go. Which is kind of the problem, really. Some folks demand signs and wonders to save themselves from the effects of their very own actions, and mock everything else.

As I mentioned, I've been seeing ...from a distance, some of the worst cruelties, indirectly. Cycles of abuse that just go on and on till people think that's actually 'human nature.' ....and of course, figure that means more 'control' is needed, as well as more absolving of power. It's something I've known since before I could even articulate it.

There's a tendency for monotheists to on some level *want to see things escalate* ...even to the point of 'ending the world' cause on some spiritual levels it seems 'better' to certain instincts than the constant stress.

Even of measuring up to 'Pure Love,' and whatever's attached to it, maybe.

If I'm making sense to you, there. I suppose in a lot of ways, I believe in that... with different terms, maybe, and don't consider it appropriate to put limited names on such and confuse smaller pieces of reality with the whole. (I'm what they call a 'soft polytheist,' and you'd have to ask what 'scale' I'm thinking on at any given moment, perhaps. :) )

It's a world of manifold wonders, too. ...often these ideas of Hells are used, really, to trigger some very self-destructive and hurtful instincts.

We're all children of the Gods, one might say... but there are some bad models of real parenthood out there, emulating certain abusive characters in some book... and one's got to tread carefully around those linkages, cause they're just as real to people, even if they're unaware of it. Some will certainly use them against the people, here in the world. Consciously or just by blind evolution of memes.

A lot to talk about there, I suppose. I'm a bit tuckered out this week. Must be all the 'spells' :)

ANONYMOUS

You wrote, "As to your name, I was surprised that you had four names instead of the usual three.", I am Catholic and at least when I received the sacrament of confirmation, we chose a name and I chose Moses as I said.

You also wrote, "Mose is the German form of Moses. My guess is you have German ancestry.", I never knew Mose was the German form, to me it is just one syllable instead of two. And yes I am part German from my dad's side of the family and you are right, it means tree and I think the first time I realized that was from the Christmas song "O Tannen Baum" "O Christmas Tree".

Then you wrote, "Now to hell: okay so you believe in it.", actually, I said that I know that it is real, and I meant just what I said, that is why I can say something about it.

Remember where it says that Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?". Do you really think that Jesus thought it was time to repeat the words of a psalm or that He was speaking of what He was going thru at the time?

You also brought up the book by C. S. Lewis, thank you, I just might check that out.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "I think, Thomas, that for many Christians, they just don't share your bit of sophistication about it".

I don't think of it as a "sophistication" but as it being simple and to the point.

The word simple and the word easy are not the same and some seem to equate the two, what Jesus asked of us borders on the impossible looking at it from a human point of view.

Forgive infinitely, judge no one, condemn no one, love your enemies, do good to those that don't do it in return, pray for those that hurt you, do unto others as you would want them to do unto you even if they don't: these are just some of the things that He spoke of; very simple, direct and to the point but very much against, I would say, most people's basic nature or instinct, wouldn't you?

You also wrote, "If you can maybe understand why I respect you as a person of good will and spirit, and still get a little frustrated at some of the things you say to promote your 'One Way.'"

I can understand your frustration at some of the things that I write, but I am not saying that it is my 'One Way'.

This ties in with me saying that I can also understand why people can be thinking "whatever" when I flat out say that I have met God, the Trinity, and I have spelled out how I met God in previous postings. It was God's doing. Also when I met satan, it was God's doing, it wasn't what I originally thought after it happened that God siced satan on me but that God allowed satan to do to me what he did.

Then you wrote, "I also suspect that maybe the folks who think it only exists to create souls for 'eternal damnation' and a 'saving of the elect' so to speak, maybe aren't the ones that ought to be in sole charge of who's driving."

Ultimately, God is in charge but some of the people who think that they are in charge or at least try to be in charge are, in some cases, exactly the people that try to force themselves or their beliefs, and these beliefs need not be religious, so to speak, these beliefs can vary all across the spectrum, down other people's throats.

God gave us free will, He did not create us to be robots or puppets on a string or anything of the sort. What do we do with that free will? That is the question, no one can live anyone else's life even tho there has been, is and will continue to be people that feel that that is what they are here for or at least that is what it seems like sometimes, does it not?

As far as, "it only exists to create souls for 'eternal damnation' and a 'saving of the elect'" from your sentence above, I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could possibly believe in this scenario and also call God a Loving God and a Merciful God and a God of Justice when all that that statement points to is a God that no one with even a shred of decency would have anything to do with.

I know that plenty of people believe in that statement and that is at least one of the reasons that you pointed it out to me. But I have met God and He is not a Loving God but is a Being of Pure Love and there is, to say the least, a huge difference between Love being an attribute of God and Love being what God Is.

I also know that before I met God the Father that there was no way that I could have imagined that Love is God's Very Being rather than an attribute, I had to experience it.

Like I said God chose me and I have said YES, my "job" is to speak, so I am trying to do it however I can.

Thanks for replying and remember not only are ALL OF US God's children but by Him becoming One of us, we are also His brothers and sisters, ALL OF US.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thank you Thomas Baum.

As to your name, I was surprised that you had four names instead of the usual three.

Mose is the German form of Moses. My guess is you have German ancestry. Thoma instead of Thomas would have sounded more German too.

Now to hell: okay so you believe in it.

You might enjoy reading the book 'The Great Divorce' by C S Lewis. It talks of man's choices and hell as man's rejection of God.

If I can maybe mediate a bit, and otherwise comment. :) (just bracketing off the back-and-forth)

----""You also wrote, "Second: you don't believe in hell even though Jesus mentioned it. Why? You wrote:

"If God's Plan is not for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom then it is not worth didly-squat."".

"First, I have never said that I do not believe in hell, as a matter of fact, I have stated that I know hell is real.

One of the things that I have said about hell is that it is not some kind of monolithic place but that the person builds it themself"---

I think, Thomas, that for many Christians, they just don't share your bit of sophistication about it, they figure, as their book and interpretations thereof have taught them, that for some to be saved, some must be damned, for there to be an OK way, everyone else must be 'wrong' or 'evil.'

As Hells go, many religions have em, and I agree, in a way, that they're self-constructed: at least, in an essential sense, no external being holds the 'keys' ....I like to joke, 'They ain't built a Hell that could hold me yet, see?' (I do a really bad young Jimmy Cagney. I think I'm better suited to Cagney and Lacey,)

There's a lot of reasons I think most Christians got turned around about this sort of thing... not the least of which an America where all these apocalyptarian ideas have turned to an idea where chosen elites who must have the 'favor of God' get to lie, cheat, steal, exploit and oppress all they want, while expecting to be 'raptured' out of the world while the innocent suffer all the effects of *their* actions. Somehow that gets justified and called 'good,' I don't get that part.

We don't, however, as some Pagans say, 'Restore the primal Land' by pretending 'Oh, it'll all work out in the end, if you don't want to be an overt exploiter and abuser, just be passive,'

..when too many of these prophecies become self-fulfilling. Whether by action or even omission.

You're very right, in a way, Thomas... In a way, you have been given the 'keys' out of your Hell... Some get the notion they need to be all attached to having the 'only' keys out, for whatever reason. I think it comes of your notion a soul only lives like this once, and everything has to happen in that kind of space of time and experience. Or maybe most folks just think it's a simpler place to put their fears and aggressions.

For a long time, many people have dismissed this world as 'fallen' and managed to keep the people oppressed.... then, I think, some come back and try to relive the same drama cause they didn't on some level expect to be *back.*

I think a lot of others are just kind of new at all this and want it 'easy' if an easy answer, even an oppressive one, is offered.

This ain't like picking sports teams to follow, in whatever passes for 'reality' where things are more real than this. But many do just leap to the same kind of attitude.

If you can maybe understand why I respect you as a person of good will and spirit, and still get a little frustrated at some of the things you say to promote your 'One Way.'

Cause that's how some read it.

This world ain't 'fallen.' Not yet, anyway, and not if good folks have something to say about it.

Whatever you believe it is, it is what it is.

I also suspect that maybe the folks who think it only exists to create souls for 'eternal damnation' and a 'saving of the elect' so to speak, maybe aren't the ones that ought to be in sole charge of who's driving.

One thing about 'the end of the world,' is, it's never as quick or tidy, nor as permanent nor complete as some folks like to expect.

Let's not waste this stuff we're working on. It was expensive.

ANONYMOUS

You wrote, "First of all I'd like to know, if I may, the significance of your names - Thomas Paul Moses Baum."

Thomas Paul Moses Baum is my real name. Thomas Paul Baum is the name that I was given at birth and at baptism. Moses is the name that I chose for my confirmation name, I have been called Mose or Moses since before I can remember.

Most people that know me call me either Tom or Mose or Moses but for these postings I decided to use my full name, seems to me that sometimes God has someone do something before they see any significance in it or even know that there is some significance to it.

You also wrote, "Second: you don't believe in hell even though Jesus mentioned it. Why? You wrote:

"If God's Plan is not for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom then it is not worth didly-squat."".

First, I have never said that I do not believe in hell, as a matter of fact, I have stated that I know hell is real.

One of the things that I have said about hell is that it is not some kind of monolithic place but that the person builds it themself.

Second, I have also said that I look past heaven to the Kingdom, which will come on the seventh day, the new heavens and the new earth.

Third, I have also said that Jesus won the keys to hell and spiritual death and will use them in due time, God's Time.

Another thing that I have said is that, as Jesus told us, night is coming which is the night of the sixth day. We are living in the sixth day and how long it lasts, I do not know, but night is coming but just as sure the dawning of the seventh day shall arrive also, the new heavens and the new earth.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

And... It's a bit hard to be fussed about this sort of thing while Pagans and other protesters and ...any activists in the area, have been so badly-abused by the police during the Republican convention.

I think there's more important things to be worried about with this administration, and Rove's next little... campaign.

I'll not again that the post all indignant about someone referring to some sexual comments about Palin appears to have been cross-posted and not related to this thread to begin with.

To Thomas Baum:

First of all I'd like to know, if I may, the significance of your names - Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Baum is German for 'tree'.

Second: you don't believe in hell even though Jesus mentioned it. Why? You wrote:

"If God's Plan is not for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom then it is not worth didly-squat."

Anonymous:

I was severely taken back by the magnitude of rude, harsh, and relentless hatred that was unrestrainedly posted yesterday. This is an opinion blog and sometimes people do get side-tracked, which is understandable, but opinions should be rendered in their exact sense, as an opinion. Not post with name-calling, severe criticisms, demeaning character bashing, belittling of a persons opinion, taunting, and threatening that so and so will meet their demise, or fall from grace, or end up losing it all, and on and on it went.

I used to come and read the articles, read others comments posted and could take something away in the form of obtaining new knowledge, a new outlook on a topic, or I could relate personally with the person’s comment. But not anymore, the post are full of sexual innuendos, name-calling, bashing someone’s belief system, put-downs, and plain outright rejection based on someone’s beliefs or comments made.

Debating an issue with stating your own opinion and the reason why you agreed or disagreed is a given in this forum, but the way it is being done is indecent.

I mean really what does Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction have to do with her being a Presidential candidate? Post after post referred to her in a sexual manner and all who posted such are shallower then a “kiddy pool” for making Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction a consideration regarding her candidacy.

I had nothing but pure disgust from seeing that yesterday and it was very disheartening.

September 3, 2008 2:19 PM

_________________________________________

To DANIEL IN THE LION'S DEN:

The above post was from another Anonymous. But clearly more than one person is noticing the name calling. That is all I referred to. If that comes across as a veiled threat to you or Arminius, you are either not reading the posts which have commented about your name calling or you both are paranoid that my mention of it constitutes a veiled threat. You get to pick one.

ARMINIUS

You wrote, "Damnit, I started something that makes me extremely uncomfortable.", try not to let it get you down, we are all in this together.

I am here to speak for God, it isn't about me, I am just a messenger and it doesn't matter one way or the other to me if people believe me, my "job" is to speak.

You also wrote, "And he's right - our God is NOT the 'bad cop' God.", "our God" as in humanity's God, far from being a 'bad cop', is a Being of Pure Love.

Sometimes I wonder what all of the fuss is about us going thru judgement, we have free will and we are responsible for what we do whether or not we take that responsibility or not is also up to us with the free will that we have.

God's Plan, which Christianity is part of, is for Christians to take up the slack, so to speak, for those that will never take up their own responsibility so as it should be evident calling oneself a "Christian" does not necesarrily mean that one is a "Christian" it just means that one does know God-Incarnate's Name.

As I have said numerous times and I repeat: "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof".

Have you ever noticed that some of God's previous messengers seem to repeat what has already been said, do you think that is for God's sake or for our sake.

If God's Plan is not for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom then it is not worth didly-squat.

There are many, many people that do not believe that God wins TOTAL VICTORY and they don't even seem to give it a second thought, as long as they get to the "good place", also, there seem to be some that don't want a TOTAL VICTORY because they want people to go to an existence that they know nothing about except for some of the human words used to talk about it.

By the way, I did not choose this "job", God chose me so even tho I usually refer to it as my "job", I actually think of it as "Our job" meaning God and me.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Well, Proud, on that abortion issue, I think it's as simple as that. We may not like abortions, but to Democrats, and I think a good lot of Pagans, it's simply an unacceptable government intrusion for any religious belief to use the power of government to try and make such decisions *for* a woman.

The hysteria tends to lose sight of that.

I have to say I don't always agree with Starhawk, though I deeply respect her, I think she's spot on with this one. I don't think a person's religion should matter. I think what really matters is that they're willing to uphold the constitution, to respect every citizen of this country, and do what he or she can to protect their freedoms. I remember seeing John Kerry in a debate and someone asked him about abortion. He said something like I don't believe abortion is right, but I'm not a woman, so it's not my choice to make. I appreciate someone who can say, it's not for me, but I can't make that choice for you. That's someone who puts the rights of every American in front of their own personal faith. Which is the way it should be. If you're going to represent a country with as many different religions as this one to the world, than you'd better be willing to put your personal faith aside.
That's what we should expect from our president.

We won't get it, but it's nice to dream sometimes.

Oh, btw, though, regarding lunar cycles, ...Amid all this, Obama's broken fifty percent in the general polls: one commentator basically called these results 'slow to start manifesting.'

This could be good news. One thing about 'bumps' is, they tend to have a descending side, anyway. This is solid performance. Especially since McCain only just decided his only chance was the radical anti-choice vote that hated him just a few months ago.

"Paganplace,

"Friends? Of course. But I don't know how to reply. Just please don't make the mistake of lumping all Christians into a single group."

Well, don't make the mistake of thinking I do. I was on the inside, too, for a whole, I know well how you guys get played off each other and to the world.

" This will take effort. I know that I can see it more clearly because I am inside it, and I know - to some degree - how your bitter experiences has affected your feelings about this."

Well, there's no nicey-niceying up some of that, no. Someone like Thomas sells a Bible for the warm fuzzies, then someone like Falwell might use that and sell them hate and fear and ignorance and all. Sell someone on a 'need for salvation' and then anyone waving the same book can come along and say 'This or that threatens that salvation, throw something!'

These games go on and on, the good works, and even good words, of good people get turned to the service of hatred and blindness and abuse and denial.

Not all 'good cops' are consciously-complicit in these dynamics, ....usually, they think they're 'above' it. Sing folk masses while enabling the corrupt Monsigniors, etc.

A lot of people want things simple. And pursue complicated ways to go about it.

Sometimes it sucks to be a complication.

More than that, and I think you and Thomas would agree, this perverts *your* faith to the service of ill ends, even when those involved think they're doing 'Good.'

Most folks aren't in the extraordinary circumstance of sitting around here and watching the world unfold, as the media and a certain creak undercarriage allow.

They know things are wrong, and are easily led to try and 'orient' to some notion that something they can try to control, outside how we organize our daily lives, is at fault.

Something like 'unbelief' or 'liberalism' or this or that.

I had just spent some time ...consoling the tears of a young bride caught between two almost-indistinguishable-sects out of the same denomination of Christianity...

Painfully-nice people, a lot of em. Terrified of hell over place-settings. Turning a happy occasion into an excuse to try and pass off certain misery.

This is why I warn you guys about letting your religion get into politics. When you run out of 'Witches,' you'll be after each other.

Same as it ever was.

"I mean really what does Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction have to do with her being a Presidential candidate? Post after post referred to her in a sexual manner and all who posted such are shallower then a “kiddy pool” for making Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction a consideration regarding her candidacy."

Wrong thread, Anonymous.

I see no such posts, here.

But claiming 'libruls' are attacking her on that basis wherever you care to say it doesn't change the fact she's a Fundie who wants to impose on others rules most people can't *afford* ...and impose policies that clearly didn't work for her own daughter.

Not to mention having had 'no idea what the job entails' never mind how to do it while raising all those kids, including a special needs kid. Which I assure you is alone more than a full-time job.

She doesn't live up to the standards she seeks to impose on others, all unwilling, and is the least qualified prospective VP in history.

Does look pretty good, but fresh out the gate she's a MILI:

Mother I'd Like To Impeach.

Forget about it. Her candidacy is a ploy, and a blithely-irresponsible one at that. With a Republican candidate who isn't the man he was ten years ago to begin with, having *her* a heartbeat from the Presidency at a critical time.... Isn't a prospect I'd like to entertain.

Republicans will go 'Aha! Sexist!' But, no, it's just what motherhood, and the second seat in the biggest job in the free world, each entail, regarding *quality time,* dig?

She is *only* put up for the 'babies, Bibles, and boom-sticks' vote. Yes, she could hand off the kid to a gaggle of nannies and buy him a degree from Yale, but that doesn't mean she's got any substance or experience right now.

She's a Quayle.

And that's a little *insulting* to women, really, since better-qualified but less religiously-correct women, perhaps, were passed over.

Anyway, wrong thread for that indignance, this one's been taken up with the periodic furball about 'Should Pagans Be Able To Speak As Americans For Any Reason' sorta things.

Paganplace,

Friends? Of course. But I don't know how to reply. Just please don't make the mistake of lumping all Christians into a single group. This will take effort. I know that I can see it more clearly because I am inside it, and I know - to some degree - how your bitter experiences has affected your feelings about this.

More later. Remember: friends. Thomas Baum too.

Well, Arminius, (and Thomas,) I still think that there's a difference between arguing the 'nice' side of that Bible as if it's all that matters and waiting for the world to end, (or change, for that matter) and ...waking up and doing something.

I mean, I think you're good guys, and I like you, but, yeah, sometimes Thomas essentially plays 'good cop' for the same darn dynamics that can be a point of sensitivity to those who seem to have someone chucking that Bible at us from all directions at any given moment.

Even if it's *nice* condescension, it still can get irritating, on less-charitable days, say when your own ways are being mocked and accused falsely of this and that while, of course, people seem to be embracing the idea of tossing the country you love and the liberty you depend on ...further down the same old hole cause some book says people should be *sheep.*

He's wrong, you know, about the notion I don't know what, shall we say, a 'vocation' is like. There's sort of a smiling bigotry, there, even if I'll forgive him not recognizing the attitude. :) Good cops, bad cops, no one gets issued a way for blind certainty to make one right.

Anyway, I'll certainly apologize if I spoke insensitively. (Frankly, sometimes some physical pain I deal with sneaks up on me like the proverbial frog in the stewpot, till it's noticed by the fact it tends to sour the ol' disposition.) ...I suppose it's hard to define where certain lines are, to folks of your religious language.

Blithe assurances 'Gawd has a plan,' though, ..not always productive, or reassuring to those called 'Witches.' Not at a time like this.

I don't foresee any 'glorious ends' on this course the Religious Right wants to perpetuate, or 'Glorious Revelations,' either.

The ..future I've been trying to fight a long time, well, it could get messy for a space, but the aftermath is just *dismal.* No answers, no revelations... A big waste. All this stuff about civilization as we know it has been *expensive.* For Earth. For humans. For *souls,* I figure.

Sometimes it's a tempting idea to 'just get rid of it,' ....but for starters, it's never that tidy, when civilizations fall, and for another, it doesn't necessarily teach *anything.* We've seen this before.

We really *can* do better. Do we learn to do this sooner, or later, that's the only real question. The Wheel turns. Nobody said we can't do some driving.

OK? Friends?

I was severely taken back by the magnitude of rude, harsh, and relentless hatred that was unrestrainedly posted yesterday. This is an opinion blog and sometimes people do get side-tracked, which is understandable, but opinions should be rendered in their exact sense, as an opinion. Not post with name-calling, severe criticisms, demeaning character bashing, belittling of a persons opinion, taunting, and threatening that so and so will meet their demise, or fall from grace, or end up losing it all, and on and on it went.

I used to come and read the articles, read others comments posted and could take something away in the form of obtaining new knowledge, a new outlook on a topic, or I could relate personally with the person’s comment. But not anymore, the post are full of sexual innuendos, name-calling, bashing someone’s belief system, put-downs, and plain outright rejection based on someone’s beliefs or comments made.

Debating an issue with stating your own opinion and the reason why you agreed or disagreed is a given in this forum, but the way it is being done is indecent.

I mean really what does Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction have to do with her being a Presidential candidate? Post after post referred to her in a sexual manner and all who posted such are shallower then a “kiddy pool” for making Pahin’s looks, body, and sexual attraction a consideration regarding her candidacy.

I had nothing but pure disgust from seeing that yesterday and it was very disheartening.

WHERE ALSO ARE OUR AMEICAN RELIGIOUS LEADERS ??

SENATOR OBAMA,THIS JUDICIAL INJUSTICE HAS BECOME AN AMERICAN ART FORM,AND NO LONGER CAN BE KEPT HIDDEN OR SECRET FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE !!!

WHEN AMERICANS WERE TOLD THE TRUTH BY THIS HONEST BLACK LEADER,WHO WENT ON TO BECOME A US PRESIDENT ???

LETS ALL HOPE OUR MEDIA FRIENDS CONTINUE TO SHOW AN INTEREST IN REPORTING ON THIS AMERICAN HORROR FACING THESE (TENS OF THOUSANDS) FORGOTTEN AND TRAPPED POORER AMERICANS, AND HOW THIS PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER HANDLES THIS VERY SERIOUS ISSUE FACING AMERICA?S LATINO AND BLACK AMERICAN COMMUNITIES ????

WITH 80% OF THE BLACK AMERICAN VOTERS SAYING THEY SUPPORT SENATOR OBAMA IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IT IS ONLY FAIR FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW PRIOR BEING ELECTED OUR NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HOW THIS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR TRULY FEELS ABOUT THIS AMERICAN JUDICIAL INJUSTICE CONTINUING TO INFLICT GRAVE HARM ON THE BLACK & LATINO AMERICAN FAMILIES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE ??????

*** WHEN GOD?S FACE BECAME VERY RED ***
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO OUR US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ?????????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.
Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE:
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM. ** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com
(424-247-2013)

Damnit, I started something that makes me extremely uncomfortable.

To Thomas Baum - it was I who said to Paganplace that you are one of the 'nicer guys'. I did this out of a profound respect for you, even though we are not always in sync.

To Paganplace: realize, first and foremost, that Thomas Baum is extending a hand of friendship to you. The same that I have done. You do NOT have to accept what he says, only that he says it with passion, with love, and with absolutely NO judgment on you, me, or anyone else. He may well be the most benign person on these strange and bewildering blogs.

And he's right - our God is NOT the 'bad cop' God. Only Spidey and his ilk have that harmful misconception.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "He's a nicer guy, and he understands your religion a lot better than most who post here, but, well, he's still waiting for something to end."

I wouldn't say that I am a nicer guy and I haven't, but I have said that it is not about religion, it is about God.

God has a Plan which is spoken of in the bible and has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

I have also said many, many times that: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. I think that this statement should be self-explanatory whether one agrees with it or not.

I have also said: That it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows, this also should be self-explanatory whether one believes it or not.

As far as waiting for something to end, it is more like waiting for something to begin. This world is a mess, just look at how we treat each other who are "different" whether other nationalities, religions, races, whatever, Thank God, not everyone but if one is to look beyond their own backyards and sometimes not even that far, well reality speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Not just how we treat each other but how we treat the place God created for us to live in.

You also wrote, "To Mr. Baum, he's all showing the 'noblesse oblige of the comfrotably-numbed 'blessed.' With justifiable beefs about Fundies who screw up what he holds dear.

First off the "comfrotable-numbed 'blessed'", you really have no idea what being chosen by God means and I suppose most others don't either but I would have to agree that there are quite a few "comfrotable-numbed" people in quite a few areas of life, not just the religious areas, that won't even look beyond their comfort zones.

As far as the "Fundies" goes, there are many, many, not just the "Fundies", as you put it, that about the only thing some of them seem to care about is if they go to the "good place".

Your statement, "Don't mistake that for him *ever* having acknowledged we Pagans as equals", when I wrote, numerous times, "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof" which just happens to be written earlier in this same reply, I meant just what it says, I really do not know how to be more point blank!!!

I have also written in other places that I was taught in second grade two of the most important things that I have ever been taught and they are: "God is Love" and "We are ALL equal in God's Eyes".

Also when you wrote, "Or not-to-be-destroyed-by his-'bad-cop-God.'", I actually wrote in a post a while back that God is NOT the "bad cop in the sky" that some want to portray Him as. I have also written that "God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable" and that the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise.

By the way, hell and spiritual death are both real but Jesus won the keys to both and He will use them in due time. Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand.

Hell is not some kind of monolithic place but if someone wakes up in hell they will know that not only did they build it themself but that they have no one to blame but themself.

There are plenty of people that are not rejecting God but are rejecting some people's descriptions of God that don't know didly about God except for His Name.

God is a Being of Pure Love and one day ALL will know this and that day will be the seventh day, when the new heavens and the new earth, God's Kingdom, will come into being.

Of course, night is coming first, just like Jesus told us, but the dawning of the seventh day will just as surely arrive in due time, God's Time.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

And they wonder why one gets cranky. :)

Anyway, Arminius, you know enough not to listen to these guys. The ill-will toward others, well, that's what you'd call 'evil fruits' or something, wouldn't you?

Fuji, what makes you think Wiccans think what you rhetorically demand is possible, ethical, or even desirable?

Starhawk, I won't believe you until you cast a spell and make the entire population vote for Obama. C'mon now. Put your pagan money where your mouth is.

Pontificator, Pontificator, Pontificator,

My eyes are protected by a Wiccan spell.

And the simple preacher man aka Jesus shows his roots by the historic passage about removing specs and logs from peoples eyes as Professor JD Crossan concluded from his analyses. The Jesus Seminarians, on the other hand, do not give said passage (Matt 7:3-5 et al), much credence as being said by the historic simple preacher man.

And how does 'concerned the christian now liberated' play out?

That sounds like a rather officious declaration rather than an opinion - if you see what I mean.

Is that a log in thine own eye??

DITLD, "So what in the world kind of veiled threat is this supposed to be, I wonder?"

Why worry about it? If it is on David Water's desk let him figure it out.

Hmmm, "pontificator" - one who expresses opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way.

"pontificator" - one who speaks or behaves with exaggerated authority.

Adding IMO does not change the tone of the pontificating.

As you yourself are fond of saying CCNL - truth, history, and reality are the only sources of my authority, subjective though individual viewpoints must needs be!

In looking over your countless thousands of posts, I stand by my observations. Your judgemental pretensions as to what is right for others is quite well documented and even legendary - and the basis of my comment regarding your accusations of others being overly pious.

You've got that ever-risky 'pot vs kettle' syndrome going on here, IMO.

Daniel ITLD,

This has been going on for some time now, but I didn't know that you are also a target. Whoever anon is - Spidey is a good candidate - he knows that he can never defeat us, so he resorts to threats. Threats that cannot be carried out, since it is well known that the worst spammer, JJ, is rarely disciplined in spite of all our pleas.

Note that anon/Spidey never answers direct questions. I once asked him to supply me with examples of nasty things I had supposedly said, complete with date/time. Naturally I never got an answer.

Arminius

That person posing as "anonymous" made almost the EXACT same observation about me that my harsh tone and name calling "has been noticed" by others.

So what in the world kind of veiled threat is this supposed to be, I wonder?

Hmmm, "pontificator" - one who expresses opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way.

"pontificator" - one who speaks or behaves with exaggerated authority.

I declare CCNL, you stand alone on a very high summit as regards pious pomposity - indeed, there is no limit to your hubris. You impress no one but yourself.

Arminius:

Thanks again, Lep.

When I run across someone on these blogs who obviously lives by the teachings of Jesus, I respect them and say so - Thomas Baum especially, and also Ryan Haber, even though Ryan and I have many differences. I will also respect and back up anyone - Christian, Pagan, Muslim, nonbeliever, or whatever - who is decent and respectful of others, and does not try to shove a theology in my face and then condemn me when I tell them to stuff it. This offensive type of so-called 'Christian' is easily identified because they never mention the teachings of Jesus, and only quote doom phrases from Revelation and assorted quotes from the OT. They are obsessed with hell. I am obsessed with how Christ wants me to live. The hell-preachers are dangerous. CCNL is merely annoying.

Jesus is a liberal.

September 1, 2008 9:56 AM

____________________________________________

Your harsh language and name calling has been noticed by many people, even those who wanted to ignore it. It doesn't fit with your claim that you are a spiritual or mystical Christian, whatever that is supposed to mean.

Wow, Paganplace really had a bad "spell day" yesterday. Arminius, for shame, doing this to such a pious witch!!!! The Voodoo doctors have been called and Paganplace should be back to normal in a few days.

I mean, I guess what I mean there, Arminius, is you and you Jesus are welcome just *fine* in my world, but lay me out on a bagel if I'll live in yours.

Capiche?

And, I hope you do understand, Arminius, that as much as certain people have systemically-perverted what is supposed to be the word of your saviour in a campaign of suppression, aggression, and feudalism for some sixteen hundred years, that as much as I respect your personal faith and that of many sincere Christians, that, .....someone has constructed for people a *world,* a *conceptual* world, not based on your Christ or goodness, but.... the *use* of that faith to very ignoble ends?

These Christians see it readily enough in Islam, but someone sells them the easier answer of it being 'which authority is perfect' rather than questioning the whole scheme.

I'm very sorry to be a simple Pagan to tell you this, but.. it's not about which side of various endless arguments they frame you come down on.

I and many other Pagan people are by nature and our own ways friendly to 'true seekers' but, no, the world ain't gonna end over what Christians say. It's what you do. It's what you see and don't see.

It's not about what you call 'love' while presuming to 'punish' who you call sinners.'

As we saw below.

And I don't mean this in a belittling way, Arminius, ....we are your friends, as the true seeker you may be, but, make no mistake.

We're your neighbors. We exist. Not to 'be converted through 'love' any more than to be 'destroyed' as so many other Christians insist.

To Mr. Baum, he's all showing the 'noblesse oblige of the comfrotably-numbed 'blessed.' With justifiable beefs about Fundies who screw up what he holds dear.

Don't mistake that for him *ever* having acknowledged we Pagans as equals. Or not-to-be-destroyed-by his-'bad-cop-God.'

He still says, 'take care, be ready' ..for.. What?

Who knows.

But that part ain't human.

Yes, it's a Fundie world. Even mainstream people can't see how much they get yanked around by their Christian death-fears.

These folks get to *rip families apart with claims that queerness is an 'evil choice' or 'demonic possession' ...so bad that it's better to commit horrors and break up a family than compromise. 'Family values.'

Some will smile smugly and play 'good cop,' but they still ain't planning on dealing with any repercussions.

"This is NOT a 'Christian Fundie' world. It is the World, the Creation, and it belongs to ALL of us. In my own belief, we are all God's children. He loves us all. Thomas Baum knows what he's talking about."

In an important way, he doesn't.

He's a nicer guy, and he understands your religion a lot better than most who post here, but, well, he's still waiting for something to end.

Good soul, I think, but, well, it only goes so far in *his* world. He thinks he's a 'nice guy' in Fundie world. Still waiting for something.

Some of us are just trying to live.

Dispatches in Britain has sent a hidden camera into the mosques there again- this time on a female muslim. Very very interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOIYkLWY4Fc

I'd heard that somewhere. One of their songs that I don't remember the name of "I'd rather be a sparrow than a snail" (lyrics) has at least 25 different instruments in. I had to listen to it for a music class and try to figure out what was all in there. I don't even remember what we came up with. But there was a LOT there-it was really cool.

Priver,

Simon and Garfunkel did some incredible stuff. I still have all their original vinyl albums. Did you know they were the first to use electronic music, an early Moog synthesizer?

Paganplace,

This is NOT a 'Christian Fundie' world. It is the World, the Creation, and it belongs to ALL of us. In my own belief, we are all God's children. He loves us all. Thomas Baum knows what he's talking about.

And yes, yes, the Christian God IS better than the fundies. Those people do not read the words of Jesus in the Gospels, they are mired in the madness of Revelation and the endless knee-jerking rules of the old testament.

I'll say it again: I am not alone. My faction is simply not as vocal as the fundies. We want peace. They want power.

Paganplace,

You may have missed my post where I told Spidey/Anon that Galatians was the words of Paul, not Jesus.

Look, friend, I am mad as hell at the brain-dead right wingers too. But note well that I am fully aware that you have much, much better reasons to be mad than I could ever imagine in any nightmare. That humbles me.

It's still about peace, yes. Not a war yet. But it could be. I am afraid, but I will be there on the barricades if it happens.

I absolutely LOVE Simon and Garfunkel..

Very few people seem to really be able to recognize the power in those words.. and others of theirs, too.

Good song, Arminius, and don't I know it. :)

What I'd ask is, if everyone believes in this Christian Fundie world... why are we 'evil Pagans' the ones trying to *help* people, despite all threasts from privation to rape to damnation from....

Who?

I dunno about these things, but I think even *Christianity's* God is *better than that.*

These little men, well, the harder they come...

I know there's several centuries of cognitive dissonance I'm trying to buck, here, but:

-------"Arminius:
Paganplace,"Funny, I don't recall Jesus ever talking about 'witches'. He did, however, not have much use for a group called the Pharisees. Looks like we have a Pharisee on our hands, name of Spidey
***********************

Galatians 5:19-21 “ 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, ---------

You do realize that what Paul is purported to have 'literally' or 'inspiredly' said in his letters to wherever... is in no wise purported even in your religion to be what Jesus said?

Well, except by Republicans. THey like to use Jesus for 'claiming to be the only good in the world' and 'Paul and Revelation and The Old Testamant' as an excuse for all the ..insensitive, shall we say, hings they do.

In the face of what *you* believe, my only real ethical dillema about the couple lines *your* book has about 'Witchcraft' is....

Well, honestly...

Do these people actually believe in America.. in freedom, in goodness, in humanity, or....

Are they a lost cause wanting to take the rest of the world down with them?

Especially after the recent litany of greedy and ill-informed-and self-righteous-demands for more-cotrol over-what you've already screwed up when you *had* control.....

All for 'Jesus' of course..... If you don't mind any punk who thinks he can get you pinned raping you and having all the might of Christendom saying you have to both raise his spawn and give him paternity-rights-access to your life......

I'm sure it'll be very holy, Christians.

But, you are the ones who claim to be the 'good guys' in some 'war' of your own declaration. And insistent prosecution.

You pray your hatred and malice and figure this makes you right with a God O'Tha Universe that *just so happens* to share your violent and unproductive hangups.

Trying to foment over and over some 'Spiritual war,' as if that were the *point* of our Western civilization.

Couple words in a language *you don't understand* and you're willing to call my people 'evil' even if you cheer when Fundies proudly proclaim 'black magic.' For Jesus.

This isn't a war, not about us Pagans, kids.

This is about you and what you think and are willing to do to your fellow humans.

When we start fighting a 'war,' you'll know it.

This is not about war, what's going on.

This is about peacemaking, about 'hungering and thirsting for justice, ' about....

Lead, follow, or get out of the way, frankly.

Do you even know what you want, or do you just feel clever about who to blame for repeatedly not getting it?

Hello darkness, my old friend,
Ive come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence.

Fools said I, you do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you.
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon God they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, the words of the prophets
Are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls.
And whispered in the sounds of silence.

- Simon and Garfunkel

Faux Anonymous,

Report and reference all you want. This should be fun, with you trying to get us deleted just because we hurt your feelings and you never had the guts to even answer a single question.

"Whirlpools whirl
And dragnets drag
Hell is not the fire.

Hell is your belief
In yourself
As the Higher"

--Peter Murphy

Arminius:
"Anonymous" sez:

"Youn[sic] can't handle the truth........not my problem.
I have nothing else to say, period."

Anon, you have said nothing yet about the 'truth'. But you are right, you have nothing else worth saying.

Oh, yeah, yer gonna write the Big Boss Moderator? Hell, he won't even delete JJ's crap. Good luck.
September 1, 2008 9:12 PM
************************

I'll be sure to reference this post, date and time and then we shall see if nothing is done.

You can't handle the truth, not my problem.

I'm off for the night. I have nothing else to say, period.

Arminius,

That's too funny. Glad to be of service. :)

"Anonymous" sez:

"Youn[sic] can't handle the truth........not my problem.
I have nothing else to say, period."

Anon, you have said nothing yet about the 'truth'. But you are right, you have nothing else worth saying.

Oh, yeah, yer gonna write the Big Boss Moderator? Hell, he won't even delete JJ's crap. Good luck.

Priver,

I got so excited about this I just called my daughter. Sure enough, she knew all about Dr Grandin, but had not read the book. We both promised each other to read it.

Youn can't handle the truth........not my problem.

I have nothing else to say, period.

So-Called-Anonymous,

Galatians was written by Paul. He was not quoting Jesus, those are his own opinions.

Arminius,

That's really cool! As a coordinator who works to get therapists for children with developmental delays age 0-3 into families' homes I've also worked with plenty of autistic kids. They really respond to music and dance.. and as an opera student I have seen firsthand the effect that such therapies can have. It's really fascinating.

It wasn't until I came across her book in the stores that I knew she'd even written about the links between animals and autistic mindsets. To my knowledge it's not in most school's curricula, though it should be, IMO. It's called "Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to decode Animal Behavior".

Arminius:
Paganplace,"Funny, I don't recall Jesus ever talking about 'witches'. He did, however, not have much use for a group called the Pharisees. Looks like we have a Pharisee on our hands, name of Spidey
***********************

Galatians 5:19-21 “ 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

And who is it that practice witchcraft? Witches.

Eh, if that *is* Spidey, Arminius, you just opened the floor to all manner of nonsense, not much related to productive things to do or interfaith relations.

What I ask supposed 'Christian Elders' is...

Getcha head off *my people* and govern your own weefuls.

Funny ideas they got in their heads, and funny how it comes down when they lay hands to weapons.

An email is in order tomorrow to David Waters

Hi Paganplace,

on the whole Dobson asking for people to 'pray' for bad weather thing- I noticed that he and his ilk were suspiciously quiet when those farmlands along the Mississippi River kept getting flooded. But as soon as it's a place with a lot of poor people..

I wonder why.

Priver,

That is absolutely fascinating! I'd like to read that. Plus - a BIG plus - my daughter, who recently graduated with a degree in dance and a degree in psychology (am I bragging, or what?!?), is now in grad school and aiming toward dance therapy. She has worked extensively with autistic kids. I'm gonna ask her about Dr Grandin, I'm sure she knows. Thanks!

"

Paganplace,

"Funny, I don't recall Jesus ever talking about 'witches'. He did, however, not have much use for a group called the Pharisees. Looks like we have a Pharisee on our hands, name of Spidey."

I think we have a basement-dweller who feels entitled to something, is what I think we got.

Hey So-Called-Anonymous,

What's your take on evolution?
How do you feel about homosexuals?
Do you have a stand on abortion?
Is there some explanation on how Noah's flood happened?
Do you have insight on the details of previously undiscovered prophesies in the book of Revelation?

Hi Arminius,

it's funny you mention the partnership with dogs..

I just finished reading a really interesting book by Dr. Temple Grandin about how her autism allows her to understand animal behavior. She makes a great case in there for the coevolution of man and dogs and how they influenced each other's evolutionary development. It's really fascinating.

" witches have no power, because if you as a witch had power as you claim that you do then fix your "addiction" to the internet."

As opposed to.. Whatever you're doing?

Trust me, I'm only here cause living in the world *you* seem to think is 'righteous' was a bit hard on the undercarriage.

You seem to share CCNL's presumption of what a 'Spell,' is supposed to do.

Cause your Christian maledictions and concomitant *political policies* make such claims.

Point here is, not everyone does.

I'm here yappin atcha *cause by your standards I should be dead, and beg your righteous pardon, massa, if I walked too many miles on rheumatoid joints without treatment for usually-terminal problems to survive certain BS, thanks very much.

I chose to still be here in this world, and I still do, even if I let better days to die pass on by. Beat the spread by , what is it, fifteen years, now. And it hurts. Every day, you selfish, self-righteous SOB.

To be honest, if I could have the *least* bit of confidence you dittoheads weren't taking out your sex dysfunctions by trying to screw the future,
I'd like nothing better than to lay down my burdens.

Barring a real fair shot at making myself useful, which I work on under stupid circumstances... When I'm not being 'Internet-addicted,' of course.

Put some work into this here brain, under difficult circumstances. Not in a hurry to make fertilizer of it, but having died before, dag. It'll be a relief. So here I am. I do what I can. You feel your reality is threatened by anyone living otherwise, well, the heck with you.

YOu are the one vain enough to crave absolutes, and apparently figure your time spent here is worth it as long as you can hurt someone.

Are you able-bodied, Republican?

Christian?

What are *you* doing here.

When *I* could still cover ten miles a day walking, the likes of you were *stil* saying I couldn't have a job, and, frankly, I did spend some time doing stuff Republicans only posture about.

So.

What would you like? This is.... What it is.

In this wonderful world, I could surely find some more productive things to be doing. If thanks to certain 'righteous opinions' ....I could either stand or sit still for very long at a time, without pain getting intolerable.

There were righteous Christians saying I ought to die and burn, then, too.

You win on that score, Christian. I hurt. All the time. You may now feel righteous.

But I'm still here. And me, or someone like me, always will.

So, what would you like, 'good man?'

Cause I do in fact give a crap about people, not as you define them by supplicating to your death-fetish.

But you can't. The next time you want to "brag" on having power make sure that you can back up you assertion.

Priver,

A hound baying on the hunt can be a thrilling sound. But I would not give Anon/Spidey that much credit.

I'm not a hunter, by the way, although I have no objection to sensible hunting. I have heard hounds on the hunt once, and it aroused something primeval in me. How many millennia has it been since Western Man has had a partnership with canines? I have two dogs.

Hi Arminius,

I've seen a singing dog, does that count? ;)

Hi, Priver,

Anon sounds like Spidey to me. He never answers questions, just comes back with more self-righteous accusations.

I think we should invoke Lazarus Long here:
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig."

why is it that all anonymous can do is call other people names without actually addressing the argument that was put to them?

Seems like a ploy for attention to me.

Paganplace,

Funny, I don't recall Jesus ever talking about 'witches'. He did, however, not have much use for a group called the Pharisees. Looks like we have a Pharisee on our hands, name of Spidey.

PP, "What peace or goodness have *you* brought, 'Christian,' or do you figure you can make up for it by hurting someone?

Psst.

You can't.

I happen to know this.
************************

Why of course you know this, you are the blog addict that thinks they own the blog and has a right to demand others on and off the blog, criticize others, and is the be all and end all of all the earthly knowledge there is.

I have news for you, if you are all you claim to be and know then save yourself from your professed hell of addiction to the internet.

You can't, but you continually put others down to make yourself look "normal" that is how you cope with being out of control.

"I didn't mention the term "Hell" you did. You must have a complex about it."

Who's your 'I' Anonymous? I seem to recall it being raised by others we were talking to, when you barged on in.

Anonymously, of course.

And, of course, you do realize the word now said as 'Witch' didn't actually *exist* in the language of those those who wrote the book you quote to call for my death?

First contact with post-Saxon England was a couple millenia off from then.

Just so you know. If you wanna play cowboy.

"Paganplace: "I do serve the good and it isn't witchcraft, his name is Jehovah God."

Oh, now you said the name. You're going to Hell. What a loving view of God you got.

"Having said that let me remind you that as a Christian I do believe that “good” is according to and based on the word of God. Which I know from past experiences you discount, but again I don't discount it and believe in it whole heartily."

Yes, this dynamic happens. Not just among people who say it so insentitively to other peoples' humanity, as if that will 'save' them from the fires of their own Hells, yes."
*******************

I didn't mention the term "Hell" you did. You must have a complex about it.

PP, "then come demand of us 'spells' to undo the consequences of the very material actions you seek to absolve yourselves"

I don't know who you are referencing here that "demand of us to do spells" but just let me say for the record, witches have no power, because if you as a witch had power as you claim that you do then fix your "addiction" to the internet.

But you can't. The next time you want to "brag" on having power make sure that you can back up you assertion.

"I do serve the good and it isn't witchcraft, his name is Jehovah God."

Oh, now you said the name. You're going to Hell. What a loving view of God you got.

"Having said that let me remind you that as a Christian I do believe that “good” is according to and based on the word of God. Which I know from past experiences you discount, but again I don't discount it and believe in it whole heartily."

Yes, this dynamic happens. Not just among people who say it so insentitively to other peoples' humanity, as if that will 'save' them from the fires of their own Hells, yes.

So:

"God's word, scripture clearly states that those who practice witchcraft are not good, but evil. Perhaps you are "smelling" your own projections, which I might add are distasteful."

Really.

So... I'm supposed to be in more dutch with the Ultimate Wisdom over things some random dude *accuses* me of, while generally trying to look out for the well-being of my fellow humans, while, of course Dobson is to be defended for attempting to get all 'Good Christians' to try and invoke the *weather* to harm people?

While a Christian 'mocks' my people for not 'casting spells' in the way he believes we must think we do.... while of course, the Right has a grand history of demanding the 'good' 'pray' for others to be *hurt?*

I mean, just on the level of *intentions* it's all backwards.

You are comfy saying, 'I say this is Bible, this means whatever ill I do is 'good' and all other people are bad.'

Fair is foul, foul is fair.

But we're not the ones got it backwards.

What peace or goodness have *you* brought, 'Christian,' or do you figure you can make up for it by hurting someone?

Psst.

You can't.

I happen to know this.

If your God actually has a problem with that, then, what can you do.

Kind of a weakness of you monotheists. No sense whatsoever of 'That's not what that is.'

You make your own religion into a confidence scheme. Even when you feel you gotta hurt someone rather than admit you got backwards.

You got backwards.

Peace and goodness does not come of hurting others.

No matter how much you want to believe it does.

Personally, I don't respond well to threats, lies, obfuscations, and abuse.

If your God has your difference of opinion how a lil critter like me ought to respond to that, then, well, hey.

He can do his worst.

Doesn't mean *you* can.

Spud.

Spidey, are you really Christian? Can you prove it to me?

Arminius: "Our resident coward Anonymous is starting to smell a lot like Spidey."

More criticism Christian brother?

PP, "while making ad hominem attacks and not being willing to sign even a screen name to their insistences they have the right to attack everyone else in sight.

I don't just know the meaning of the word, I know what's *behind* it.

Would you like more words?
*************************

See you can't stand the fact that I exercise my right not to choose a screen name, as I said in my previous post “you don’t like independent thinkers that do not think like you.”

My advice to you, get over it and deal with reality that you do not control everyone.

More words, be my guest.

Our resident coward Anonymous is starting to smell a lot like Spidey.

ARMINIUS:
Paganplace,
Anonymous' village just called, their idiot is missing.
Damn, I knew I should never have gone back on my decision never to read, let alone reply to, any post by an 'anonymous'. Why someone simply does not have the common decency to distinguish himself/herself from all the other lazy bastards using the 'anonymous' handle defeats me.
********************

Exactly my point, name-calling, labeling, put downs, threats…………………need I see more, or should I say I rest my case.

Paganplace,

Addendum. I just remembered that the only reason I took him on is that I read one of your posts where you replied to his rant against you. So I guess I can be excused from going back on a decision.

"You don't even know the meaning of the word,"

Well, brave Anonymous, you'll have to forgive me if it has anything to do with not being impressed when someone defending 'their' ego's right to be *recognized* as 'Anonymous' (when they choose) ...while making ad hominem attacks and not being willing to sign even a screen name to their insistences they have the right to attack everyone else in sight.

I don't just know the meaning of the word, I know what's *behind* it.

Would you like more words?

PP, "One thing about being a 'Witch' is.... Well, we can smell projections of someone else's darkness like a fart in an elevator.

Would you like to serve the good? Brave anonymous?

********************

I do serve the good and it isn't witchcraft, his name is Jehovah God. Having said that let me remind you that as a Christian I do believe that “good” is according to and based on the word of God. Which I know from past experiences you discount, but again I don't discount it and believe in it whole heartily.

God's word, scripture clearly states that those who practice witchcraft are not good, but evil. Perhaps you are "smelling" your own projections, which I might add are distasteful.

Paganplace,

Anonymous' village just called, their idiot is missing.

Damn, I knew I should never have gone back on my decision never to read, let alone reply to, any post by an 'anonymous'. Why someone simply does not have the common decency to distinguish himself/herself from all the other lazy bastards using the 'anonymous' handle defeats me.

"Tolerant, then tolerate the fact that I choose to remain anonymous, think that you can handle it?"

Well, by the pattern of your words, it appears you're one of those who won't pick a screen name to even in this place of electronic words be held accountable minute to minute for what you yourself say,

But still readily take offense at people failing to psychically tell the difference between you and the others.... who would rather type pages justifying being too lazy and scared to pick a name and stick with it, than be troubled to actually take on a name, even just for 'the sake of the argument.'

In this way you're all the same. You like to 'snipe' and pretend you're just one of many, usually when an argument doesn't go the way you'd like by any standards of consistency.

So, yes. You're a coward.

And the fact that this is only a blog means, well... Whatever you're afraid of, it can't be much.

You're the one trying to abolish all other viewpoints and can't even dare put a name to your arguments, lest anyone call you on consistency?

What would you like? Respect? For what?

Or did you just want to attack the argument after your own accusations and insults were responded to forcefully?

I still haven't seen you address the substance of it, just try to put a Roveian spin on it in the name of Jesus.

I'd be careful what you invoke, especially if you want to be absolutist around *that* guy. :)

Paganplace: "Did I mention the projection?"

You don't even know the meaning of the word, because if you did you wouldn't use it in the context that you did with a negative connotation. It is a practice that you exhibit on a regular basis.

Let's be clear on this, though:

"First comes the criticism, put downs, label name-calling, then comes the threats, “because you did this then this has happened, or if you do this then this will happen.”"

I was criticizing and putting down those who presume to demand 'good Christians' invoke what you call 'The God of All Good Or Whoever Agrees' to *hurt* people with the weather, then come demand of us 'spells' to undo the consequences of the very material actions you seek to absolve yourselves of responsibility for, never mind your prioritizing your own ill-will over the lives of fellow humans, or even, frankly, the very faith in your own God you seek to impose.

*You* demand the 'signs and wonders...' As long as you feel to command them against people you can say it's 'ok' to hurt, ...And never recognize that at the very *least* this *doesn't work.

Your blindness is you think everyone is like you. You presume to say the *all-and-only God in the *multiverse* commands all to obey *you.*

Generally about hurting people.

Why?

Don't look at me.

One thing about being a 'Witch' is.... Well, we can smell projections of someone else's darkness like a fart in an elevator.

Would you like to serve the good? Brave anonymous?

Arminius:
Anonymous,

If you're so damn brave, moral, intelligent, etc., then why do you hide behind the totally wimpy handle of 'anonymous'? Or can't you spare 60 seconds to think up one?

I am Christian, Paganplace is my friend, and she is a lot more tolerant than you are.

***************************

Tolerant, then tolerate the fact that I choose to remain anonymous, think that you can handle it?

BTW, I don't think that it is wimpy at all, however what I do think is wimpy is your intolerence to sin as a Christian.

Did I mention the projection?

Anonymous,

If you're so damn brave, moral, intelligent, etc., then why do you hide behind the totally wimpy handle of 'anonymous'? Or can't you spare 60 seconds to think up one?

I am Christian, Paganplace is my friend, and she is a lot more tolerant than you are.

Paganplace: "I mean, I dunno, brave Anonymous... Maybe you *weren't* one of the global warming deniers here last week claiming that preparing for a busy hurricane season was some anti-Christian commie plot, but...

How you think those folks feel about that *now?*

Looks like Fay and Gustav have been just the first in line. Care to go for the trifecta?

Not with innocents, you don't, that's what I say.

Or, to extend the metaphor, what you get, literalist, when you 'sow the wind?'

Ah but why contend about 'mumbo-jumbo,' when the public works are being neglected so people can feel they are 'Appeasing God?'

Does your little 'spiritual war' *help* people?

Well, who aren't venture capitalists, that is."
*******************************
That is right, I am brave and proud of it, and you are the one that has a problem when I challenge or question you on something. Your criticisms are indicative of your immaturity, so save your feeble arguments for those that listen to your BS because I don't care to hear it. There is nothing wrong with my Christianity, what the problem is your "hatred" of anyone’s belief that is not your own, again another practice that is indicative of someone that is immature.

First comes the criticism, put downs, label name-calling, then comes the threats, “because you did this then this has happened, or if you do this then this will happen.” You don't win people by criticizing them and always hanging a threat over their head, something that you think or know is personally dear to them that you use it as an attack, threatening them with in hopes that they will retract from their belief or proposed action because you have threaten to hurt them emotionally.

You don’t respect people that are independent thinkers. If people do not agree with you on every aspect you put them down, label them, and get your Pagan friends to join in on the criticism ride. You are prejudice, bias, discriminatory, and hurtful to those that have a good heart and mean well but make human mistakes at times which you use to throw in their face and hurt them with. That is why your arguments are always the same, if there aren’t any new mistakes you keep brining up the old ones.

Bullsh*t, you are all about hurting someone, you talk with a forked tongue you say you have good morals and love mankind, want to do good for others, and are peaceful but your actions say otherwise, you are always out to make someone who thinks, believes, and does things differently then you to conform to what you want them to be.

You want to know that your criticisms, name calling, labeling, and threats, have hurt me, will that make you happy?

I mean, I dunno, brave Anonymous... Maybe you *weren't* one of the global warming deniers here last week claiming that preparing for a busy hurricane season was some anti-Christian commie plot, but...

How you think those folks feel about that *now?*

Looks like Fay and Gustav have been just the first in line. Care to go for the trifecta?

Not with innocents, you don't, that's what I say.

Or, to extend the metaphor, what you get, literalist, when you 'sow the wind?'

Ah but why contend about 'mumbo-jumbo,' when the public works are being neglected so people can feel they are 'Appeasing God?'

Does your little 'spiritual war' *help* people?

Well, who aren't venture capitalists, that is.

I'm...not seeing where you're getting that interpretation, there, brave Anonymous.

In fact, the GOP has turned this whole potential disaster into a way to not actually-have to say something while saying they're running a much-needed relief center in.. Minneapolis.

Heckofajob, there.

Seriously, though, what else they supposed to do.

I *think* what you're referring to is *Fundamentalist Christians* like James Dobson publicly telling all good righteous Christians to invoke some power to bring storms to prevent *Obama* from giving his speech to all those who hoped to hear it.

And us saying, Tsk, bad juju.

Didn't say it's the fatcats who necessarily get hurt by those actions.

Who follows them, well, hope their insurance is in order.... Oh... Right... It can't be, can it, after the last screwup.

Nope, just commenting on the irony, that's all.

Maybe the folks in Louisiana are just targets for what you think is 'God's petty 'wrath' to you, but, I think the point here is, *they're *people* to us.

If you want to confuse the GOP with 'God,' that's on you.

Like I said, when people wonder what the fuss was about in these matters, I call it a win.

Now, about that 'government' thing.....

Just cause the GOP was caught with their pants down in a *non-catastrophic* situation, ....doesn't mean pants were not in fact down.

What would you like?

What happen?? All you Pagans said the the GOP was going to fall into their own trap because of their comment about the DNC.

I don't see anything happening to the GOP like you prophesized. Could it be that you were just "wishing" ill will on them?

"The morality of it, if you ignore the religious aspects, is not too different from the Pagan viewpoint."

That's what scares them. They might lose their carefully-cultivated excuses and exemptions, that way.

Hi, Paganplace,

Had to read your post twice. Your comments on the 'Christians' on power, and on many that post here, are correct. And I thank you for giving me credit to trying to get to the real truth of what I believe. The morality of it, if you ignore the religious aspects, is not too different from the Pagan viewpoint.

Well, yeah, Arminius. :) Did you like my little lecture, there?

Ah, Islam. Aggressive Christianity's favorite funhouse mirror.

You know, that's where CCNL's burr got up about Pagans in the first place... When we wouldn't join his little irrational crusade about who gets to treat us like 'chaff.'

"You'd get worse in Khartoum, where people more or less just like me get to *act* on the kind of hatred of and disinformation about you we spew, as opposed to here, where we just want you to give *us* that power...."

Good thing we're like, Americans, eh?

But, yeah, I've been through enough at Christian hands about *my* faith that somehow 'Be glad we're not *Muslims,* *they* would do worse to you' ....Well, somehow he didn't seem to comprehend how non-compelling an argument that is for his 'dominion'

Hi, Common Sense,

Spidey as anon can always be spotted when he asserts that someone, often me, is not Christian.

As to religion - I would substitute 'spiritual' for 'mystical', but I suspect that we are talking about the same thing.

Oh, yes, if you want to see CCNL at his worst, spewing his hatred at Muslims, visit the 'Ramadan in America' blog. CCNL is the poster child for 'Ignorance in Action'.

Well, it looks like Gustav's been a sport about not hitting New Orleans directly when they're down, anyway. This one sure could have been a lot worse, however folks are doing. :)

As for CCNL, he seems to mostly try to not expose his Christianity (except maybe through anonymous 'friends') lest he... Be treated as he treats others.

I don't think one can pin the blame on Crossan for this one: if the guy's 'liberated' from anything, he has a funny way of showing it, and certainly doesn't seem any better at listening to folks like Crossan than he does anyone else.

As do many Christians, really.

Yer man there said we'd know you by your fruits, and so we do. I just had a little refresher course last night in how cruel you types can be to *each other,* even between sects with differences that seem utterly-insignificant from the outside. How cruel you guys can be over *these little minutiae you get it in your heads everyone's soul hangs over a flaming pit.*

I think if your Jesus came back, he'd probably look at a lot of the posters here and be, 'Hey, what you need me for? Seems you know it all already, smart guys.' (OK, so maybe I'd bet he would be from like Queens or Milwaukee. :) )

As for CCNL, he seems to cherry-pick the *worst* in Christianity, and figure that must make him legit or something.

Really, just shows he doesn't *get* it.

Frankly, your reading of that Hell thing, along with so much about your prophet,is pretty instructive. It *could* be read as a guy permanently saved the world from that belief... I don't recall he himself saying, 'Hey, only I can 'save' people from this sort of experience, pray to me,' ...what if it was about showing some folks 'the way' to? Be like this and 'redeem the ancestors'?

People *choose* what to make of that, as much as they claim 'My Opinion, It Is Written.'

Whatever you want to say your Jesus had in mind, ...if he's any friend of humanity, I'd say he had something more in mind than this sort of abusive, sadomasochistic self-righteousness.

The notion is he *walked* among those scorned and defamed and attacked by those sorts of people.

I think if your Jesus came back, he'd have a damn hard time getting any Christians to help cause they'd be too busy ripping him and each other apart based on scriptural interpretations, wondering who's 'best' by being 'tough on sinners,' or whatever, ... when he could walk up to your local Pagans in the guise of any old dude and say, 'Hey, friends, could you gimme a hand with this?' :)

I mean, if you guys want to claim the blanket right to call yourselves the 'good guys,' well... look how *backwards* things have gotten from how you feel the world's supposed to be.

Are you at all aware of the irony that *Witches* are here cautioning against attempting to invoke some power to hurt people with the weather? (For a 'righteous' agenda, no less.)

That's kinda messed up on so many levels.

All some of you care about is *power* and *control.* You tend to project that on everyone else in the world, if not force conflict over it.

Everything's 'war, war, war,' and you can't seem to see the world in any other way. Even *faith* is a *war* to you. As someone who's been a warrior in less-metaphorical senses, I find that.... Offensive. War is a can only to be opened with a sober dread and a perspicacious accountability. Not something to manufacture 'excuses' for.

Like with Iraq, this 'Christian' administration immediately set about trying to say it was theologically-justified without a plan, without
making a case for it *being a good idea.*

A poster on another thread laid that bare, 'Ask Saddam if he's better off now,' (the implication being as long as they 'hurt' a 'bad guy' it 'justified' hurting hundreds of thousands and making a thousand *more* bad guys.)

War, war, war.

If you guys don't like how the world is shaping up, well, look at what *you* chose to export these past decades.

You Hell-...fetishists, really, You think yourselves mighty, but at the core, you're not 'saved,' or 'liberated,' ...you're *afraid.*

Desperately-afraid, of an abusive 'daddy' figure, and hoping that throwing everyone you think different into that 'lake of fire' of yours will appease that thing you fear.

You may fixate on 'spells' or any threat to your 'power' or 'rivals' for the same *kind* of power, but you're ultimately *powerless.*

Your 'Christian Nation' has been living off squandering the inheritance you have from people who could actually *build* things, *make* things, *increase* civility and prosperity and even technology.

The nice thing about living traditions made from what you guys couldn't *destroy* is, ...on a deep level, often unspoken, we Pagans know that whatever 'The Truth' is, ...it can't be killed, or destroyed, or burned in a pile of books of any size you care to destroy to appease your fears.

Also, we have less cultural inertia.

And if I really wanted to see *your* religion destroyed, Christians, ...I wouldn't be saying this. I wouldn't be running around cleaning up your messes and tending the human wreckage you leave, or giving helpful hints on how to not be complete and egregious *ahems.*

a) I don't want your 'job,' b) Am not under the misapprehension that all people need is to try to believe the 'right' thing and expect magical good results, and c) Don't consider it my *pay grade* to make that kind of call, anyway.

So. I'll let you in on a little secret.

'Conservatives' are identified with the alphas, mostly concerned with enforcing breeding and driving off rivals and outsiders.

This is not a whole pack. The 'liberals' you scorn are the ones who prevent your little games from laying all to waste.

To some Christians, there are only 'alphas and omegas,' in an ironic convergence with my canine metaphor. 'Top Dogs' or those to be utterly-scorned, cast out, or opposed.

You forget the betas. Generally-cooperative, but do not mistake that for weakness, or think that means we won't step up if we have to.

In *some* of you Christians' personal worlds, there is only 'Win, Lose, and wannabe,'

But you tend to be the ones most in denial that we're social creatures.... Animals. And thus the ones most blind to your own basest instincts, (in this case, really, simian ones.)

Breeding, war, and authority, all this is to you.

That won't last, ....one way or another.

Oh, but you don't care, do you. The world's always ending to you, isn't it? Funny how that always seems to coincide with when your leaders expect to die personally.

They aren't 'saved,' *they're scared.*

Your Hells do not impress us.

What we have in common with folks like Arminius is, he isn't governed by that, either. Seems to have some wild notion that what you hold sacred actually *worked* or something, ...who knew.

I figure that's good enough to be getting on with, for those who choose it.

Yes indeed Arminius - I see Spidermania everywhere under the anonymous handle.

All religions are founded on and supported by the mystical experiences that underpin a particular religious faith. Mystical experience confirms the existence of what we call the Sacred, the Numinal, or the Divine, across all religious orientations.

Does Crossan Catholicism have a history of said mystical confirmations? Or is it perhaps a brand of secular humanism hiding out under the mantle of religion?

While secular is good, hiding out with pretensions to the truth is not so good. I'll bet Prof. Crossan, the well-known religions scholar, is plenty familiar with mystical traditions - wonder why it hasn't caught on with CCNL?

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

So apparently you are not an atheist afterall. Please share with us some of your "unwatereddown" Christianity that you would want the presidential candidates to know about as per the topic.

Jesus warns of the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

It is also told that

"THE TIME WILL COME when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they HEAP TO THEMSELVES TEACHERS, HAVING ITCHING EARS; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and SHALL BE TURNED UNTO FABLES."

Common Sense,

Indeed CCNL offers us a 'Christianity' that is so-watered down as to approach emasculation. Rather pathetic, actually. And certainly annoying.

The real nutcase here is Spidey, who is currently trying to hide behind the anonymous handle.

No CCNL, you've been reincarnated as a rather self-righteous blog troll - LOL! Crossanized Catholicism seems very boring to me - just my opinion of course.

Seems to me you very much like all the social rituals and the religious paraphernalia without the metaphysics....but you're not everyone else, now are you?

For the life of me, I don't see a superior strain of religion therein. Hermeticism is profound by comparison......

Conservatives don't much like liberals of any stripe - in or out of church. Did you orthodox types ever stop to think that the feelings are kind of mutual?

Of course liberals are by nature far more tolerant - but that goes without saying.

Anon - I'll bet you don't know a damn thing about Jesus....or where he did or did not go. However, CCNL will just have to set you straight.

"The hell-preachers are dangerous"

Not only did Jesus teach repeatedly about hell- He actually made a short visit there after He overcame it.

Arminius misses the good news. He is "a few chosen red letters" Christian in name only.

Arminius considers himself a red letter Christian but he has forgotten or denies these red letters:

"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Thanks again, Lep.

When I run across someone on these blogs who obviously lives by the teachings of Jesus, I respect them and say so - Thomas Baum especially, and also Ryan Haber, even though Ryan and I have many differences. I will also respect and back up anyone - Christian, Pagan, Muslim, nonbeliever, or whatever - who is decent and respectful of others, and does not try to shove a theology in my face and then condemn me when I tell them to stuff it. This offensive type of so-called 'Christian' is easily identified because they never mention the teachings of Jesus, and only quote doom phrases from Revelation and assorted quotes from the OT. They are obsessed with hell. I am obsessed with how Christ wants me to live. The hell-preachers are dangerous. CCNL is merely annoying.

Jesus is a liberal.

In my time corresponding with Arminius, I have seen a man striving to walk the walk of the Nazarene carpenter, rather than follow the directives of letter-writing Pharisee.
I think Ieshua would approve of Arminius.

CCNL, you have a point. Arminius does write like an atheist. He is always bashing Christians with the most unkind language, but sticking up fiercely for atheists, pagans and Muslims.

And yet, and yet he calls himself a Christian. I wonder why. He is a bit of a mystery to me.

Arminius is a Christian, CCNL. Your constant insults of everyone but yourself might hold more weight if you actually demonstrated you even read.

Not much, admittedly, but there's a particular lot of room for improvement in that regard. :)

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

And you are contributing what to the question about religion and the presidents? And you are an atheist who should have some qualms about Wicca and Paganism? Ditto for the violence of Islam and the mumbo jumbo of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism??

Maybe, just maybe you are suffering from a Wicca spell?? For a price, you can probably find a witch doctor who will remove said spell. Said "doctor" might even be willing to voodoo the witch that set the spell upon you. Or is that hoodoo the witch??

Common Sense, Common Sense, Common Sense,

Did you not know that I went the Hindu route, passed away and was reincarnated as a young, pretty, talking, writing, wingie thingie??? You must talk more with your guardian angel!!!!

Paganplace,

Nothing ever new from CCNL, only a rehash. He is beyond reach by us - greater minds than I have tried, and failed.

Eh, I dunno, Arminius, I'm here today, (somewhat) anyway. :)

While of course, he's fixated on 'spells' again, the past few days, that almost looked like new content, just there. :)

Really CCNL, at your age your should be concerned with your coming fate in the years ahead. Why worry so much about other 'misbegotten' souls anyway? Worry about your own destiny and let them worry about theirs. You have no mission here.

Past 65 and you're concerns need to change dramatically. Focus inwardly, rather than outwardly. Take the Buddha's message to heart and find the true nature of reality on your own!

Crossanized Catholicism offers nothing of substance - why bother with some dried out philosophy of long-dead religious heros that had no magic? Do you have a pact with Crossan to convert the masses to a sensible religion?

You need to believe in magic again - that's a good place to start. Otherwise, you're just another aging kid with a chip on his shoulder.

Paganplace,

I worry about you. Yes, any of us here on these webs know that our words all too often fall on deaf ears. But you seem addicted to replying to Confused the non-Christian Now Croissanted....

Have you not learned yet that he cannot be reached? He would have spewed the same nonsense if the hurricane were bearing down on Texas, or Miami, or Norfolk, or whatever. It does not matter to him - he simply presents the same non-evidence, and puts out nothing but negatives. He cannot debate, even converse properly.

Well, CCNL, the problem is bigger than just 'Dumb people built a city there,' ...Actually the loss of so much of the Mississipi Delta, again from not paying attention to the effects of our actions, (in this case, altering the flow upstream is kind of what stranded the city so close to the ocean without what previously helped protect it from such storms, particularly storm surges.

As to what makes economic sense, doing a proper job on the levees would probably be cheaper.

If the city suffers badly again, then all those neighborhoods, history and culture could get foreclosed on or fire-saled to be bought dirt cheap by developers for upscale resorts, though, and you bet the government money to protect *those* will suddenly appear.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

You mean there is no spell to stop a Cat 4 hurricane? Darn!!!

Stepping away from Wiccan/Pagan mumbo jumbo and the Bush/Christian mumbo jumbo and into reality, it is significantly stupid to live below sea level and on beaches. Katrina showed this. Gustav will probably reinforce it. Time to make NO and the surrounding swamps a national park with a large number of wind farms. Time to rebuild NO upstream about 100 miles.

Oil under NO and the swamps? Probably and a good source of revenue for rebuilding NO upstream.

Is there a Wiccan spell for finding oil?? Hmmm??

"Somehow the mumbo jumbo of Wicca is less mumbo jumbo than the mumbo jumbo of Christianity???"

Oh, I dunno, CCNL, what do you care, you wouldn't know the difference, anyway, but weren't there a whole bunch of 'Intelligent Design' people here on this site just a couple of weeks ago, claiming this active season wasn't going to happen, just so they could spuriously-claim 'global warming is a hoax?'

Not hearing that *this* week, are we?

*Our* 'mumbo jumbo' ...based on the science, said, 'Prepare for more hurricanes,'

...meanwhile the Bush government spent about three years claiming it didn't need to improve the designs of the levees, that climate science didn't justify any immediate action, (and all the rest) but sure made a few bucks telling people to go back and rebuild, anyway. Consequently, the levees in New Orleans aren't *ready.* They aren't even letting the National Guard stay, this time.

*Our* mumbo jumbo says, See that ocean? Respect it. Don't gamble with it. Especially not with other people's lives.

Have you no decency?

As for 'spells,' at exactly whose home towns would you like us to try and direct a Cat 4 hurricane? (thankfully, projections are downgraded a bit at this point) All that energy and stuff has to go *somewhere.*

TV preachers are known to try and do that to 'smite their enemies,' despite the fact that it has a way of seeming to backfire every time.

I'll take *our* 'mumbo jumbo' (which you still don't 'get,') over *that,* thanks. No one said you had to believe a word.

Let's pray everyone's on the ball, and we don't have too many that get hurt. It's not just the one storm, either, we could possibly be looking at a chain of three or four, depending how the patterns go.

And as for *my* kind of 'mumbo-jumbo,' when people wonder what the fuss was all about, I tend to call it a win. :)

Anyway, Lepi. If you're going to hunker down, well, be safe, and don't have *too* much Guinness. :)

Lep,

I'm doin' what I can to put in a good word for you and everybody else in the path of that leviathan storm. Good to know you are that far to the north, I think you and yours will get out of this ok.

PP, Priver, Arminius,

All the positive energy and prayer you wish to expend on our behalf will be greatly appreciated.
I'm in Baton Rouge, LA.
No mandatory evac in BR, but a friend whose brother is with New Orleans Police Dept said that this time, even the police and National Guard have been told to leave New Orleans once the mandatory evac there is finished.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Somehow the mumbo jumbo of Wicca is less mumbo jumbo than the mumbo jumbo of Christianity???

Covens "man" your spells. There is a hurricane "a coming"!!!!!

G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
44 AM G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 20G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AG A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM
M
AM
3:44 AM
08 3:44 AM

G A B Y

G A B Y

G A B Y

Mr. Gaddy is a Satan & ye hath been mis-interfaithly led-astray!

Fool!

---

Legislating from the Pulpit, & not Legislating from the Bench, is what EViLGELiCALS, aka Jealousicals are all about!

AMAZiNG () Zero Grace!

August 31, 2008 3:44 AM

By: Interfaith Nation, US.:
NOTiCE TO SUE , in FEDERAL COURT: NEWS CORP., MYSPACE, Washington Post, NYP, NYT et al:

-
According to Federal LAW, "i" Jacob JO...Z, herein NOW, Electronically serve'd "NEWS CORP., Et Al" as per after many many Warnings.

By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

LiVE, FROM:CONEY ISLAND NEW YORK YA!

NOTiCE TO SUE , in FEDERAL COURT: NEWS CORP., Washington Post, NYP, NYT et al:

Note To Alot Of WAPO's socalled PRE-APOCALYPTiC 'Moderator(s)", YE All

Are SUPER-STUPiD-STiTiOUSLY Devilishly Jealous of O.U.R. “EC{CLATi}-ON” NEW RelIGiON from Old!

Wow! EC{LAT} 'Not Allowed!
Wow JOK{TAN} 'Not Allowed!

Thank You 'onfaith' & 'postglobal' for allowing me to go Forward in U.S. FEDERAL COURT, after giving al ye Many many FAiR Warnings: For Religious Discrimination, Theft of iNTELLECTUASL Property, Plagiarism etc!

August 28, 2008 6:04 P

.
Live From: CONEY ISLAND NEW YORK YA!

Thank You 'onfaith' & 'postglobal' , after giving Ye many “FAiR” warnings, for allowing me to go Forward in U.S. FEDERAL COURT For 1) Religious Discrimination , 2)Theft of iNTEELECTUAL Property , 3Plagiarism .………………..nth etc!

By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

Originally Posted On 'onfaith' Moderators SUSAN K. SMiTH

Orig posted on 'ONRELIGION' posted On Moderators Susan K. Smith site Posted August 28, 2008 6:04 PM

Posted on 'ONFAiTH' moderator Sue Thistlethwaite site August 28, 2008 6:43 PM

Posted on 'POSTGLOBAL' on moderators STEVEN MUFSON site August 28, 2008 6:48 PM

Posted on Moderators Sally Quinns site 'ONFAITH' August 28, 2008 6:59 PM.

Posted on Moderator Deepak Chopra 'ONFAiTH' cite August 28, 2008 7:15 PM.

Posted on Moderators Susan Jacoby 'ONFAiTH' site August 28, 2008 7:20 PM.

Duly served on 'ONFAiTH' Moderator Greg M. Epstein August 28, 2008 7:23 PM

Onfaith Epstein again August 28, 2008 7:28 PM

Duly served ONFAiTH moderator Welton Gaddy August 28, 2008 7:37 PM

August 28, 2008 7:38 PM

August 31, 2008 3:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments

Posted on August 31, 2008 03:32

Anonymous:
Greg M. Epstein is a Budhhist + Transcendentalist movement organizer, not Ju:

Schame, SCHAME discusting ScHAME on Harvards so called Rabbi Epstein, et al, the judeo-Ju-boy, playing the Devils "Secular + Huminista advocate card.

Hello {world}:

Harvards Mr. Epstein & Ms. Eck hath jealously hijacked the American Word 'SECULAR' (an Apple) and added (+) the American word 'HUMANiST' (orange) and thus Satanically "hiding" his/their "BUDDHiSM" & "TRANSCEDENTAL MOVEMENT" conspiracy in America & Elswhere!

Remember: SECULARiSM is the Religion of Everything , before the Science of Everything, and Zero, Nothing HUMANiST-ic About "IT"!

Preapocalyptic Jealous Split Minded Psychotic, F O O L S!

PS: As told Ye, Ye [NEWS CORP. et al] are Being Suid! Soon After Labor Day!

Amazing () No Grace! Happy Every Day & Happy god hunting!

Originally Posted August 31, 2008 3:06 AM

August 31, 2008 3:14 AM

Oh my Lords and Ladies.. Lepi,

I really hope that your family will be ok during this storm. What are they calling for where you are? Will be sending some energy and light your way.

Yikes, Lepi. How much danger are you expecting, where you are? (I don't recall if you ever specified where in particular you are.) Not that we're guaranteed-safe where we are, but I could see if among the local community I've met so far, we can put some folks up. We could take some people here at my place, and I don't think it's two days' drive away.

I should see if we can set up something ad-hoc. This one looks like it'll be pretty bad.

"We are just a few days from the new moon and I stand by my words. Experience tells me-- nothing grows."

The latest zogby survey begun Friday afternoon and completed mid-afternoon today shows McCain/Palin at 47% compared to 45% support for Obama/Biden.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1547

We Dems got the anniversaries of women getting the vote, and MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech (and perfect weather).

The GOP will get Gustav.

Regardless of what the phases of the moon say, I'd say we Dems got the better deal!

Hi, Lep,

Damn, I hope you will be out of the way of the worst of it. I will say a prayer or three, if that is OK with you. You will have something of a crowd, but as long as everybody likes dogs, cats, and each other, it should be fine. But - and this is VERY important - make sure you have lots of Guinness on hand!

Arminius,

Ditto what Paganplace an PriveR said about you - you're welcome at my literal or figurative table any time.
No time to chat - got to finish preparations for the coming dampness from Gustav. My daughter, her fiance, and their roommate, along with their pets will be arriving at my house either late Sunday night after the guys get off work or early Monday morning. I'd prefer that they err on the side of caution and come Sunday. We'll have 5 adults, 9 cats, and 2 dogs in a 3-bedroom house. We decided to shelter in place as the only places well out of the reach of the storm would be 2 days' drive witt 11 pets, and where would we find a place that would accept us with that many animals? Leaving them behind to fend for themselves is not an option. We view adopting pets as akin to having children - once they're yours, you're responsible for their well-being, and abandoning them is not acceptable.
Let the games begin.

I got fringe on my old cut off Levis
You are just you
That's fine

*raising eyebrow.*

And *we're* supposed to be 'The Fringe.'

I had a vision too. John McCain dies and goes to heaven. Who's he meet but President Kennedy who is having a cold beer. McCain says, "you mean there is beer in heaven?" Kennedy points to Ben Franklin who tells McCain, "beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." McCain says, "I guess I'll like heaven more than the old job." Then it gets dark, because Barack dies and ends up in hell. Who's there but Rev. Wright and he's pouring wine with the devil. They pour Barack a tin cup of wine and he tastes it. Says he, "this is sour," and the devil says "of course it is sour we got the grapes from John Edwards over there." That end this deflag vision.

If you are going through hell, don't stop for wine. It's not like California Wine Country you know.

And, Btw, I'm Irish, myself, Deflag.

"Don't make it hard on the women, unless they deserve it."

Well, that's the beauty of it, for some Christian types. One story bout an apple and we 'deserve' *anything they can think up.*

" deflag:

"I wouldn't be concerned with the anti-Christ."

Why should Pagans be worried about being deluded by a particularly-prophesied one of those who's supposed to come along and use people's Christian piety to delude them into doing bad things in the name of Jesus, when we deal with that all the time?

Frankly, there's just so many Christians living down to *that* myth. Look at Bush. He's been living down to that from the get-go, right down to assaulting 'Babylon.'

I wouldn't be concerned with the anti-Christ. I've found there are so many of them running around they are a dime a dozen. They are cheap and want it so easy. Use Irish diplomacy. That's where you tell somebody to go to hell and then make sure they are looking forward to the trip. That's how I roll. It's a free country, let's keep it that way. Don't make it hard on the women, unless they deserve it.

And, Fomer, well, I do get cranky.

'Spunky' is a term usually applied to *little girls* or as a dismissive metaphor for that, and I did object to the characterization of someone who's really paid her dues that way. I don't think other religions' elders get treated that way.

I'll accept it wasn't meant in that manner, but, come on, we can probably do better.

On this:

"Actually, I'd like to set the bar a little higher (or at least higher in my mind) where you run for office and no one cares or even asks about your religious affiliation. Where people are judged by their character -- boy that's sounds familiar -- and not where they tell you they get their moral values from. "

That'd certainly be nice. In the current climate, and, in fact, really, the way things always seem to work in the popular mind, is that one prejudice gets substituted for another, as people learn that religious tolerance is acceptable and possible, for instance, where once Jews were scorned and despised, they have become first tolerated, then accepted, and in many places, just part of our world... Currently, political parties want to appropriate that tolerance to specific agendas: in some ways, it gets easier as people get used to the process, and full equality and respect for diversity becomes the only logical completion to said process...

But we still have to go through the process, not that it needs to be made any harder than it has to be. Not that anyone has the right to harm or disenfranchise minorities, certainly not.

As for actually wanting to elect one of us to a high office, well, it may be a while before our fellow Americans are willing. I'd say we just need to be ready when the time comes.

Maybe that's not what this board is for, CCNL.

You've already had all manner of things explained to you, at no small effort of patience, and you've never shown you retained anything, or been anything but disrespectful, or done anything but try and 'prove' your willful ignorance is a better characterization of other people than what they say for themselves.

Trying to explain the many views of magic you'll see out there is an awful big job considering you didn't listen before.

Certainly, it's very different from, say, Dobson and a bunch of people praying for bad things to hapen for people. Probably the opposite, in that in Wicca, one takes personal accountability for one's intentions, rather than passing the buck off to some other being or presumptive being.

Wiccan practice is very much about being mindful of our intentions, ...not as some try to bill it as looking for 'supernatural easy ways out.'

The conservative Christian worldview you seem to embrace so fully, even if you mock the religion itself, essentially believes humans are powerless without its own beings, hence the accusations anyone not in their crowd is Satanic or something.

But that's not how it works. This isn't Charmed.

Relevantly, Wiccan practice does involve observing natural cycles, and harmonizing with that. Hence all the talk about waxing and waning Moons we've heard here. Since you don't believe in the spirituality of it, think of it as like working with the tides rather than trying to fight them. :)

Athena:

You said, "I long for the day when a Pagan will run for office openly, and win because they're the most qualified."

Actually, I'd like to set the bar a little higher (or at least higher in my mind) where you run for office and no one cares or even asks about your religious affiliation. Where people are judged by their character -- boy that's sounds familiar -- and not where they tell you they get their moral values from.

PaganPlace, you seem to be a little harsh on Dave whose comments were not meant to be insulting. That doesn't sound like your typical posts unless you are responding to CTCNL. What gives?

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Wicca/Paganism's mumbo jumbo is somehow more complex than that of Christianity's? Maybe you should describe said Wicca/Pagan mumbo jumbo that is so hard to understand starting with witchcraft and finishing with voodoo dolls even though voodoo is not in the Wicca theology sphere but is so well understood by said witches of Wicca.

*yawn* Evening, folks.

CCNL:

Considering you're the one who seems to be trying to troll about your own willful ignorance about 'mumbo jumbo,' and ..apparently we're not the ones trying to influence the weather to harm someone else's party (heedless, of course, of the fact that weather all has to go from somewhere and come from somewhere,) I don't think we're the ones you've got to worry about.

Not that I suggest Rev. Dobson holds any such influence over the weather, but, hey, if his own convention gets called on account of rain, (not to mention on account of all the potential harm these storms may cause,) it sure says something to us about minding one's own intentions.

How many of those who prayed for storms against Obama at his behest are going to feel like they literally reaped the whirlwind?

No more than necessary, I hope.

Anyway, Arminius, Gaby, sorry if I took overmuch exception to the use of that word, but it tends to be said in a belittling context.

As for the election, well, McCain's made his next move... A bit of an underwhelming one, thus far, really, ...if he was attempting to steal Obama's thunder... So to speak.

I can't believe the Post publishes this. Everything that comes from this write is ridiculous.

Dr. Dobson publicly encouraged Republicans and evangelicals nationwide to pray for rain during Obama's acceptance speech to sabatoge the Democrats' convention. That didn't happen. It was absolutely perfect weather.

Now, the RNC convention might have to be postponed, or interrupted, due to the hurricane that is heading straight toward our nation's underbelly, possibly New Orleans. Tornados are expected, severe thunder storms, possibly one or more serious disasters.

And YOU'RE puting forth the idea that there's a bad omen over the Democrats due to a waning moon?

To those who believe in divine intervention, perhaps God might be telling us something?

Arminius, Arminius, Arminius,

Hmmm, the pagan cry of "do no harm"/"speak well of all" is relevant to your character?

Regarding Paganplace -
How about intelligent, learned, subtle, and compassionate?

Regarding CCNL -
How about bigoted, shallow, and too damn stupid to realize that his repeated ignorance only makes us laugh at him?

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Hmmm, not really simply pointing out that Pagan/Wiccan "theology" is just more religious mumbo jumbo akin to the mumbo jumbo of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism but with more of the paranormal thrown in the mix.

Hmmm, "feisty"? "Spunky"??? No, "covenie" or "witchie" capture the character much better. Right up there with "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingies".

Dear Starhawk,

Sorry, didn't pick up Grampa Simpson drawing down the moon.

Somehow, I seem to be picking up a lycanthropic
Dick Cheney eviscerating a newborn kid. . . .

In any case, I suspect the seeds of division the Republicans wil be sowing at the upcoming convention will return three times over to the party of "the ownership class."

Paganplace,

Gaby is right. 'Spunky' is a compliment. What's more, it fits you, although IMHO a slightly stronger adjective might be more fitting - 'feisty' perhaps?

Hi PP,

"I think we can find a less patronizing word."

Since when is the word spunky "patronizing". I use it quite often when I admire a person. As in "WOW, look at that!!! (S)he's got SPUNK".

To my knowledge spunk is defnined as "spiritedness or eager willingness" and I don't see anything patronizing in that.

Hi, Priver,

Thanks, friend!

Obama completely knocked me over. There I was, all alone, cheering like a madman, and devouring every word. Never in my long life have I ever been so fired up about an election. I think the republicans are really afraid now, because they know our man can be tough as nails, and our VP pick is as mean as the proverbial junk yard dog. But it will still be close. Hell, American doesn't need another nail-biter, especially knowing that Rove & Co will steal it if they can.

MMA Arminius,

It's so good to see you here.. you're always welcome so far as I'm concerned. :p

I was so jazzed last night after the convention I didn't sleep much and am paying for it today. Obama really knocked me out of my socks.

and it turns out McCain's selection of someone younger and even less experienced than Obama just showed how desperate he is. He just undermined at least half of his own critique of Obama.

This is really odd. To put it mildly.

I dunno, CCNL, what *are* you trying to prove here? That we should vote for people obsessed with mocking us, who are opposed to our civil rights and dignity in society, not to mention holding our regard for the future in utter contempt, and basically going against near all of our community values?

Don't worry. Many of us find it usedful to observe the cycles of the Moon, but I don't think you'll be seeing any major political conventions planned by them anytime soon. :)

Why in the face of the full Moon would anyone ever want to impress the believers in witchcraft, spells, voodoo and hoodoo?? (Note: Wiccans don't currently practice voodoo or hoodoo but that could change after the next Coven election).

Hey, CCNL, ... any time the GOP wants to start impressing us, as opposed to, well, acting like you, they're most welcome to give it a shot. :)

Hmmm, I see the Democratic Party convention has spilled over to this thread with a Pagan Party in full swing with speechs by a couple of witches and a few "wannabee" gods and goddesses. And there is no Moon out tonight to guide them. Good show though considering the low energy of the night but I guess that is why so much "do no harm" talk passed to the Dark Side.

I am a honky old fart, 65 years old. I remember many, many speeches, including Kennedy's finest, Nixon's resigning, and countless others. I wish I had heard LBJ's speech to Congress, to support the Civil Rights bills, where he echoed the demonstrators outside, and actually said, "We shall overcome!".

Never have I heard anything like Obama's speech tonight. Oh, my dear God in heaven. Let us all go forward and defeat the creeping Dark Age created by the current gang of criminals who are destroying all that America stands for.

*listening to Obama.*

Now would you just look at this....

Could this surreal nightmare of the past eight years... be ..Ending?

Would you listen to this..

Maybe... A waning Moon...

Is a great time to end some lunacy. :)

Keeping a bit of a vigil myself. :) Can't really be thinking about baseball, just now. :)

Obama's speech coming up soon - I'm outta here.

Paganplace,

Difficult to tell when you are teasing....(!)

Now, on a really important note: my Braves downed the Fish, 4-2, to win 2 outta three! YEE-HAH!

So, OK. I'm not above teasing. It does pay to be remembered well, though. ;)

Eh, all I can say bout Bush, or Cheney, or any Fundie, Arminius. *They* expect to be off to eternal reward, whether or not they successfully bring about a suitable facsimile of Apocalypse.

*I'm* gonna be here. Thirteen years old, maybe.

With their legacy, a magic marker, and a heck of an imagination. :)

Paganplace,

Go after the Shrub? Nah.... take down Cheney, and thus castrate Bush.

" Arminius:

"Thanks, Paganplace. You are a wonder and an enigma, my friend."

Nah. Just an American a few times over. Gods help me, but I'm down with that.

George W. Bush, I want to see prosecuted, if possible. I also want him to live a long and healthy life to see the results of what he did while gormlessly-smirking at us and crapping on our way of life and highest ideals like the little weasel he's chosen to be.

Thanks, Paganplace. You are a wonder and an enigma, my friend.

Nice reply to MarkF, but I think he is a one-hit wonder, and won't be back.

"I would defend him with my life in the event of an attack on him, even to the point of taking a bullet. I would not be defending G W Bush, I would be defending the office of the president, I would be defending the heart of America. Don't bother trying to argue this one with me, I ain't backin' down, no how, no way."

Would never ask you to, Arminius. Trust me on that one.

But, MarkF, let's look at this:

" MarkF:

"What a crack pot this person is. P.T. Barnum was right."

What, by saying, 'There's a sucker born every minute?'

I say, there's more than one *person* born every minute.

What, by saying, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time?'

Well, as someone not too interested in being born a *sucker* any time soon, allow me to be Pagan and say,

We won't get fooled again.

"The great and neglected writer G. K. Chesterton talked about how people prize secondary values while neglecting the important ones."

What, like demanding an unsustainable birth rate and assuming if babies can't be *fed* it's *their* fault?

" In our time, we clamor after food that was grown without pesticide, while polluting our women's bodies with birth control pills that do a lot more damage,"

Birth control pills don't do *damage.* The people who put pesticides and bisphenols and growth hormones and other endocrine disruptors in the *food* (if not 'anti-miscarriage' drugs meant to spare people the 'curse' of natural miscarriage, even if that causes birth defects, .... *those* pollute our bodies.

Then, in order to stop anyone *questioning* why this produces a lot more *queer* people than usual, just like these same substances do in lab rats, promote the notion that 'being queer is an immoral choice, obey your HMO and suck on plastic and bovine growth hormone'

*Birth control pills* don't make 'defective kids,' they make.. Fewer unwanted kids.

These are very simple hormones.

It's the *other* crap people sell.. and tell 'environmentalists' to shut up about, that *does* cause problems.

Trust me on that.

" and then murder the innocent child before birth when the birth control doesn't work. "

*looking at watch.* What year you think this is, anyway?

Or you living in that world where people don't use condoms cause they're additional 'sins' to 'fornication?'

Paganplace,

Yes, salute the rank, not the man or woman. This is not just proper, it makes common sense. But it goes beyond that. It so happens that I do not simply loathe the Shrub, I actually hate him. But - and this is important - I would defend him with my life in the event of an attack on him, even to the point of taking a bullet. I would not be defending G W Bush, I would be defending the office of the president, I would be defending the heart of America. Don't bother trying to argue this one with me, I ain't backin' down, no how, no way.

(hoping you notice where I shifted who I was addressing, there, Arminius. I did neglect my evening coffee. :) )

"This is just fine, since the POTUS is the commander in chief, at the top of the chain of command, and there is no way this side of the rivers of Hell that I will ever obey anything the Shrub sez."

You salute the office, not the man. The face of the man may well represent the Lord of Misrule for generations to come, but we carry this through honorably, Not gullibly, but honorably.

Just depends which side the river we're on.

We're here, now. Careful, Arminius. Some oaths, well, outlast any given death.

Some little man like the last poster can't see the connection between *agriculture* and the lives of those not yet born, ....That ain't what that oath you mentioned or the oath of any citizen answers to.

Not just the seventh generation, as it was accounted wise by those who first lived here said to take into account, but in the words of Yer Man there, seven times seven.

You'll be wanting the agriculture, 'Pro-Life' guy. Unless you just love feeding starving children so much you just *have* to make more.

Dig?

What a crack pot this person is. P.T. Barnum was right.

The great and neglected writer G. K. Chesterton talked about how people prize secondary values while neglecting the important ones. In our time, we clamor after food that was grown without pesticide, while polluting our women's bodies with birth control pills that do a lot more damage, and then murder the innocent child before birth when the birth control doesn't work.

So she' talks about changing our agriculture but seems to be OK with murdering the unborn. Yet she talks about "kindness." This is what happens when you worship the inanimate creation instead of the living Creator and Father.

OK, Paganplace,

You are right, so I will hereafter distinguish between a vow and an oath. To the best of my aged memory, the soldier's oath is the only one I have taken. Note that the final part of that oath, to obey all commands of my superiors, was invalided when I was (honorably) discharged. This is just fine, since the POTUS is the commander in chief, at the top of the chain of command, and there is no way this side of the rivers of Hell that I will ever obey anything the Shrub sez.

"Hi, Paganplace,

Well, I exaggerated, no oath was involved, but I did state that, so the value of my personal word is somewhat at stake."

Don't call yourself an 'oathbreaker,' then. We *do* take that word pretty seriously. :)

That, as well as masculine forces in Nature, happens to have been touched upon in the last thread. :)

As our Athena said: "Dave - many Pagans also feel that the Earth is both masculine and feminine. The Green Man, Pan, Dionysus, Osiris, etc. are all vegetation deities. Most Pagans honor nature as both, since it takes both masculine and feminine to procreate. Unless you're an amoeba, that is! :D "

Not to neglect other-than-vegetation, but, yes.

Where some will take the notion of 'male and female' to be an ultimate and monolithic order of the universe' of course, commonly, Weiican-type Pagans take it to mean, 'Everyone has a mother and father,' (Even queer folks.)

The thread didn't last long, cause the question was pretty much derided as trivial, but, Dave, I did point out that we Pagans do tend to not talk about 'The God,' cause it tends to, what'd I say, scare the *paste* out of people who believe maleness is essentially out of control and needing governing.

But we do value that. Ask any Pagan with pollen allergies what 'treegasm' means. :)

"Athena:
Dave - many Pagans also feel that the Earth is both masculine and feminine. The Green Man, Pan, Dionysus, Osiris, etc. are all vegetation deities. Most Pagans honor nature as both, since it takes both masculine and feminine to procreate. Unless you're an amoeba, that is! :D "

Athena, thanks for sharing this. As you say we should honor both principles.

I agree also with your comment about a pagan running for office. As long as she or he is qualified, nothing else should matter. Who knows when the majority of voters will be ready for that. Maybe sooner than we think.

Hi, Paganplace,

Well, I exaggerated, no oath was involved, but I did state that, so the value of my personal word is somewhat at stake.

We Christians do indeed take oaths. Not in weddings, no, the oath I am talking about is secular: the oath that I swore when I became a soldier so many years ago. I still to this day hold to the first part, to support and defend the Constitution.

The president takes a similar oath of office. A pity the Shrub didn't understand it.

"I'm oath-breaking here, tuning into a blog other than Susan Jacoby's. "

Eh, Arminius, I don't recall you swearing any oaths....Technically, Christians aren't supposed to be allowed to, anyway, not technically being empowered to do so under the theology, therefore the 'vow' was invented, whatever that happens to mean. :)

I'd been meaning to say you're welcome here, as much as I can say that, but I'm sure the Pagan regulars feel the same.

Dave,

I, a Christian, happen to think that Paganplace is just fine, thank you.

I'm oath-breaking here, tuning into a blog other than Susan Jacoby's. But I can't resist.

The vision of Starhawk leading a bewildered, goat-horned McCain in a skyclad moonlit dance had me ROTFLMAO!

Now, I must say, that I have no use for astrology. However... the full moon... does have strange effects.....

Let me explain. Personal story, please bear with me.

My daughter is now in graduate school, in dance, aiming for dance therapy. She cut her teeth on the beginnings of dance at a rhythmic gymnastics gym here, run by a true saint of a woman who was determined to school great young ladies instead of anorexic champions - and she invariably succeeded. Anyway, when my girl was about 14 or so, I went to pick her up after the session. As usual, all the girls piled outside at once, with me in tow. It was a full moon... so, of course, I looked up at it, lifted my arms, and began howling! After a moment of WTF, the girls all chimed in. The coach came out, with a classical slack-jawed expression - and then realized the morale value. I started a tradition, that still continues.

"Paganplace, even though no one else in the world thinks so, I think you're alright...:)"

Yeah, that's what *he* said.

Spunky, ennit? :)

Paganplace:
"Who said I had to lose 'inner serenity' to grab yer button-pushing wrist when you were sowing disrespect? :)

Did I not say I'd give ya punk? ;) "

Paganplace, even though no one else in the world thinks so, I think you're alright...:)

Maybe just for some perspective: Starhawk has faced down guns andviolence with passive resistance and been incarcerated several times. I've been basically in *fricking combat.* With people who so happened to be a lot better-armed than my lil humble self, to varying degrees. ...Spunky?

I think we can find a less patronizing word.

"Wow, I really pushed a button. That inner serenity is your greatest treasure."

Who said I had to lose 'inner serenity' to grab yer button-pushing wrist when you were sowing disrespect? :)

Did I not say I'd give ya punk? ;)

"Paganplace:
'Spunk' implies she makes some presumption.

You let *us* worry about any such.

*You.* Show some respect."

Wow, I really pushed a button. That inner serenity is your greatest treasure.
You're giving over way too much power. All from the word spunk. Really, no offense was intended.

We all make presumptions by the way.

And you know as well as I you can only see in others what first resides on some level within yourself.

How about we both undergo a little self-examination. Never hurts.

"I have to go now, I feel a spell coming on."

No worries, I could clear that right up for you. Cept that might involve dealing with your ancestors, which... isn't tidy.

"Shame on you!!!"

On me? where'd that 'shame' you expect to bestow come from, buddy?

Will it make you free if I say, 'More weight?'

"And here I thought you were the good witch from the East!!!"

Good? It's been said. I do OK.

Would you like me to be good at something?

Or is that hard?

"Or is it the West?"

Well, everywhere's west of somewhere on this Earth. But if you want West, you could ask Starhawk. Lady got chops, in that California way. :)

" Oh my, my brain is starting to fry!!! Where is that wizard anyway???"

That's the real question, ennit?

Child of man. ;)

Dave - many Pagans also feel that the Earth is both masculine and feminine. The Green Man, Pan, Dionysus, Osiris, etc. are all vegetation deities. Most Pagans honor nature as both, since it takes both masculine and feminine to procreate. Unless you're an amoeba, that is! :D

I long for the day when a Pagan will run for office openly, and win because they're the most qualified. It may yet happen. I didn't think that we'd see an African-American or woman nominee this soon. But look what happened. Times have become so desperate that we're willing to take a chance on someone other than a white male to be our leader. We have Rep. Keith Ellison, a Muslim, in the House of Representatives. So, maybe seeing a Pagan office-holder isn't inconceivable.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

And the reference(s) showing said projections?

Even good witches have references for statistics.

I have to go now, I feel a spell coming on. Shame on you!!! And here I thought you were the good witch from the East!!! Or is it the West? Oh my, my brain is starting to fry!!! Where is that wizard anyway???

" Dave:

"I generally like Starhawk's views and spunk. She makes some good points in her post."

Ah, yeah... Thank you thank you, sir. Cause when our respected clergy speak, we really do appreciate it when you deign to call it 'spunky.'

Nah, nah.

You want *spunk,* I'll give ya 'spunk.'

I'll give you punk,
I'll gi' ya sunk ...yer Battleshi*ahem* .

I'll give you bunk, debunk, rebunk, I'll giye 'I done thunk,' I'll give you shrunk, drunk, skeletons in the trunk.....

This is not about 'spunk,' dude.

This is about someone speaking for a lot of people, not always with blanket agreement, not even or especially from me, but, *as* someone who represents.

Some of it.

You want spunk, come to me, cause I got no business, outside certain circles.

Starhawk won't claim the title, but she's a Lady, sure as any given Christian is 'Reverend.'

'Spunk' implies she makes some presumption.

You let *us* worry about any such.

*You.* Show some respect.

" L.Kurt Engelhart:

"I long for a world in which everyone just lives by their own beliefs instead of constantly trying to foist them on others. People feel like those who share a belief are like a "team" that is competing with those who have different beliefs. It is all very distressing to me. I don't think life has to be like that."

I assure you, friend Christian, it does not. We're living proof.

If I may submit what some of those who taught me Christianity said, (Well, at least to an innocent Pagan heart, anyway) ...'Love your neighbor' isn't a means to an end.

Not a ploy, not a marketing scheme, not a gambit for political power.

Just what Yer Man There said it was good for his followers to do.

Even if it's 'love yer enemies,' not 'Look for enemies and redefine 'love' to figure what you're doing is under orders.'

You wanna be our neighbor, there, L.Kurt?

Come meet us.

'Neighbor' is not for us a transitional stage to 'sheep.'

It's a bond between free and empowered people.

A bond of humanity.

Wanna?

I generally like Starhawk's views and spunk. She makes some good points in her post.

Don't always agree with everything of course, but do respect her concerns, insights and passion.

One thing I'd invite her to ponder. That the earth (or universe) is not masculine or feminine, it's both. And why not teach it as such.

Gotta have both Time and the Field within which time operates (or pick another metaphor to one's liking, perhaps that the eternal silent abstraction forever coexists with the hum of countless permutations, etc). In this universe they always go together, the friction of their interaction giving rise to a 3rd quality, consciousness, and all that can be known.

The ultimate of course is unconditioned and beyond concepts or description. Whatever one can think of, it's not that.

Perhaps interestingly I'd agree that the waxing and waning Moon does affect consciousness, and by extension all products of consciousness (people, nations, worlds) as you say. Got to become the ultimate to avoid the influence of sky bodies (most of us still a long way from that order of reality).

Since we're actually on the planet, we should remember to vote, too.

I long for a world in which everyone just lives by their own beliefs instead of constantly trying to foist them on others. People feel like those who share a belief are like a "team" that is competing with those who have different beliefs. It is all very distressing to me. I don't think life has to be like that.

Well, it would also be nice if the candidates would endorse same-sex marriage, promise to pull out of Iraq, sign up to the Kyoto protocols, and a few other things... but your plan outlined above sounds like a good start :)

Mind you, here in American Paganism we really don't think much of keeping score in that way, just that when it comes to things like, 'You know, actually, there's more Pagans than Muslims in the US military, and they have *lots* of chaplains, but we're supposed to be too 'fringe' to have *any,* ...Well, we will point it out.

If you like numbers.

We're quality-over-quantity types, ourselves. Ain't exactly much percentage in 'aggressive advertising' if there's ...actually no reason to even think it's a good idea to try and run out and convert the world. To whatever.

I mean, hey, CCNL, you profess to be a 'liberated Christian' and figure you have the right to mock anyone your ego pleases, but....

You're never any different from the Christian conservatives, so I figure you're just an exercise in plausible deniability.

If you can't actually grok to the notion people got other things going on, that's your piece of damage, ennit?

Liberated? Christian? Where's your 'now?' :)

"Bluefirewitch,

"Third largest religion in the USA???? References please?"

She was saying that by projections, for what they're worth, we *will* be the third largest religion in America, ....probably sometime before you stop Googling 'Bestwiccanspells.com' to try and pretend you can define our theology.

But that's not saying much. :)

Bluefirewitch,

Third largest religion in the USA???? References please?

Are we talking Wicca, motorcycle gangs, punk rock bands, Coven of the Sacred Stone People, Druids, Witch Doctors of America, of Europe, of Asia, of the Artic, of Africa, et al???

" bluefirewitch:

"It'd be nice if we at least got some recognition."

Yes, it would, Bluefire... (Careful that stuff, btw. :))

But it'll come. There's no accepting people trying to drive us backwards, but, ....Well, we aren't the ones with but one life to give for our country, are we? :)

It does matter, of course, when people try to marginalize us based on lowballed numbers...

But who's really keeping score?

That ain't us, either.

Some freak out about themselves or the world 'running out of time.'

We say, we got all the time in the world.

So we do *this* time.

And do it well. For all of our tomorrows. :)

It'd be nice if we at least got some recognition. As we are predicted to be the 3rd largest religion in the US and we are also the fastest growing. An acknowledgement when speaking about religious people would be nice. From both sides.

Though, speaking of moon-shadows.. Anyone else concerned about *security* tonight? I think like that, too.

How do we use a waning Moon to protect ...and nurture... something ...someone... very dear?

Don't forget that. This is part of our ways, too.

Well, Anonymous, the 'fun' comment was referring to how spin doctors will just claim, 'This failed' (usually by setting the bar unrealistically high) and, maybe make vague accusations about 'lies,' and call it an analysis.

My position on the lunar influence is just to say that raising more energy isn't the *objective* here. This particular even isn't *about* growth, but rather about harmonizing and, as necessary, if you will *dispelling* some of the divisive energy that to some degree the campaign has turned inward against the party.

What it means to me, the lunar phase, is not to say, 'We need more energy in any given situation, the waning moon is a bad time to do *anything,*

But instead to say, 'OK, what's this time *good for, let's do that.*'

I think, though obviously I don't expect lunar charts were consulted, that this was the right convention at the right time. For 'growth,' or *expectations of growth,* well, do that when it's *time* for that. :)

No sense saying, 'This was a terrible time to raise energy' and then judge the thing by the standards of how much energy was raised.

Now, Starhawk's a great one for raising energy, ...she led one of our ceremonies once. She can run the Stuff, no question. I tend to be more of a 'do more with less' type... a troubleshooter, and a problem-solver. Some problems can be seen as *too much energy, badly-directed or undirected.*

You can't have growth if the growing things strangle each other, you could say. And the real objective of this convention was to harmonize some of that energy that had turned inward, and move forward together. A waning moon is a *great* time to set aside conflicts and renew purposes.

As defeating the Republicans goes, plenty of people are plenty pissed off and have been And plenty enthusiastic about this great crop of candidates we had, this time. This one's about *focusing.* Emotionally, rationally, and in fact spiritually. It's about 'Focus, people.'

The quieter things are on our side in this one, too.

To use an automotive metaphor, a spectacular burnout may be impressive, but it's not actually what makes you go anywhere. This one's about getting in gear.

Learning to use a time for *what it's for* is part of what we learn, too, not just thinking, 'Everything positive happens on the waxing moon.'

So that's part of where that perspective comes from, OK?

Great article, Starhawk! You called it as I see it!!!

We are just a few days from the new moon and I stand by my words. Experience tells me-- nothing grows.

If you think you know better and want to have fun-

Make your own prediction on tonight's show..

Aww, Anonymous, you're spoiling the fun. Don't spin doctors need a license in your state or something? That was just sad. :)

Starhawk is right. This democratic convention has been a bust. When your leaders lie to you- it does not empower and you end up trying to figure out who gave the best "performance".

Michelle was the best liar so far. How long until the "old" Michelle reappears?

And I'll predict= tonight will be a disaster.

Yep, this one'll bring em out of the woodwork. :)

As the waning Moon goes, I wouldn't be too worried. Energy hasn't exactly been in in short supply for this election cycle: actually this convention's real mission could be seen in terms of *freeing* that energy from the obstructions and negativities that have heretofore bound that up with some effectiveness.

That seems to have come off pretty darn well.

In terms of Pagan matters, let's not forget that Bob Barr, that guy who tried to ban Pagan religion from the military, is running as a Libertarian, of all things.

It could be that in terms of hating *us,* well, maybe the Religious Right called something up they'll have trouble banishing. The very bigotry they capitalized on may help play the spoiler for their own party.

It's not always about who can raise the most juice.

Geeze, Starhawk... the thought of McGramps dancing skyclad just made me spew all over my monitor! I'm going to have to degauss my brain after that mental image! Besides, if he brought the alcohol, it would be Budweiser. Blech.

Other than that, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't need to know a candidate's religion. I just need to know that they respect the right to worship as we choose - or not to worship at all.

But the goddess forgot to tell us about all that "voodooing and hoodooing" under the full Moon.

Dancing in the moonlight, wearing nothing but goats' horns. I love it.