Abortion and the Goddess

"PP: Trying to butter up the croissant with religious references will only get you into a jam. CCNL is an atheist, apparently an anti-abortion one, and an equal-opportunity religious bigot."

Actually, it's been figured out he isn't an atheist, just thinks everything but his own brand of Christianity is 'superstitious.' He just doesn't like to be called on how he lives up to his *own* religion, turns out. If he lets on he's an atheist, he can act the provocateur without labelling himself hateful. Whatever his religion is, his bias is clear. Note how he's always in lockstep with Conservative Christians and always defends them. He hasn't even once said anything about 'pretty talky wingie thingies' in regards to Palin.

Not that most Christians would recognize him, (all he really cares about, it seems, is an excuse to bash everyone but his own sort of denomination) I suppose, but he never denies it, does he?

He could set it straight quite easily. How bout it, CCNL?

You'd think the atrocities done in the name of 'witch-hunting' would *really* get his goat, if his view were based in atheism, wouldn't you?

As for this, CCNL:

"Your reference is greatly appreciated. The story does not read like a pagan hate crime but more like a crazy woman needing some significant psychological help. The reference does not even mention the pagan flavor of the store."

No, it wouldn't be a 'Pagan hate crime,' btw, it'd be a 'hate crime against Pagans.'

Whether or not the woman's disturbed, who taught her that she ought to walk into a store with a bottle of kerosene labeled 'Dante' and try to burn someone alive? Where'd that idea come from?

Plenty of radical Christian churches do in fact teach that that sort of thing is what 'witches' deserve and go to great lengths to put forward spurious 'Occult experts' to 'prove' that Pagans are 'really' worshipping Satan and doing horrible things. More mainstream churches try to say the same thing in less extreme and frothy terms, but still call us a 'threat' from 'evil,' etc. So *what,* really, if it takes someone having a screw loose to decide to act out what is so-assiduously taught? Like I always say, 'Careful what you teach, someone might believe you.'

Of *course* the news story doesn't mention the possibility this is a hate crime. We're supposed to be the *bad* guys to some, remember? People might have to face up to what they're teaching each other, if they had to look at the results.

I don't see the churches putting warning labels on their dogmas that say, 'This Word of God that says your local tree-huggers are really evil characters from the Bible is only suitable for those legally-responsible for whether or not they act out on these ideas.'

Some in the media will *certainly* draw the thinnest connections possible between Neopaganism and any 'disturbed individual' who had anything Pagan-looking, including general heavy-metal paraphernalia, around. They'll call some of our prominent leaders 'self-styled Pagan clergy' but use no such qualifiers when it comes to anything that might be taken to support their little narrative. If a crime occurs within a block of a Tarot deck, they'll try and blame Paganism.

Frankly, a number of mentally-ill people will certainly look toward Wicca and magic and the paranormal, not really as a religious thing so much as trying to cope with symptoms. Too many, but some, will do what the defamers do, take just enough Wicca and just enough pop media portrayal to run their scams on people, generally in complete isolation from the community, lest they get called on their BS. They may have a book or two on Wicca or 'pop spells,' among other things, but not *understand* them. When their symptoms get worse, or some Fundamentalist line comes along and tells them to see devils and demons, it of course just feeds the witch-hunt narrative.

You can't really control that. But you can see it for what it is. Journalism is supposed to *help* in this regard, not that you can expect your local newspaper reporter to necessarily see a reason to question what they hear in church all the time.

Diversity education can help, here, too. The truth might not be so good at scaring people into the pews or into voting Republican, nor have the cachet of telling people they're valiant warriors against evil for acquiescing to injustice, but it'd help *protect* them from people who use the trappings of Wicca or Paganism to profiteer or exploit people who can't *tell the difference* cause they've been steeped in disinformation.

Denying the role of hate and hate-speech... even denying that the *victims* are of a minority religion and not just some random 'shopkeeper,' in attacks like this, is part of what helps this kind of thing go on. Promotes it.

They'll sure blame uninvolved Pagans quickly enough when their own abused kids or mentally-ill act out what *the churches* teach rebellion against those churches is 'supposed' to look like.

As for this attacker, well, she had it together enough to premeditate and plan her attack, and to escape. We may never know if she was legally-responsible for what she did, unless maybe she tries again, but what message does it send when you have preachers and even VP candidates claiming this was on the side of 'good?'

Kind of like the guy who shot up the UU church, acting out from the firestorm of hate against 'liberals' and 'unbelievers.' That story hardly played in the media at all, though it was discussed here, and then mostly with a token mention of 'Look out, now the liberals will want your guns again.'

Doesn't fit the narrative, I guess, the fact the hate's out there, and maybe could be dealt with.

From Concerned the Christian now Liberated:

Terra, Terra, Terra,

You noted: "As far as our beliefs in life, death and inbetween? That is a deeper Well."

Deeper than the BC/BCE peasant superstitions which form the foundations of "Wiccanism"/ paganism???

CCNL
Please please..if you are going to insult at least insult with the proper words..It is not Wiccanism. It is Wicca. Or I am a Wiccan. Witch is capitolized...We Are.

As far as our beliefs in life, death and inbetween? That is a deeper Well.

Goddess is also..
terra

From Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

Thorschild,

Your reference is greatly appreciated. The story does not read like a pagan hate crime but more like a crazy woman needing some significant psychological help. The reference does not even mention the pagan flavor of the store.

Nice store by the way with lots of Wiccan spells and magic books for sale at the store and on-line
http://www.thecountrygoddess.com/ .

Here You Go, CCNL:

http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp?S=9060245

PP: Trying to butter up the croissant with religious references will only get you into a jam. CCNL is an atheist, apparently an anti-abortion one, and an equal-opportunity religious bigot.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

So your witching needs some energy i.e. poor track record with spells of anykind. The Coven of Eleven might be able to help

Reference to the Illinois incident please!!! Newspaper, CNN et al.

And back to the topic i.e. the destruction of life in the womb i.e. destruction of unborn babies some would say. And how again does the Rede of "Wiccanism" address this issue? "If it does no harm, do what you will"?? A defenseless life form/baby is somehow harming you??

A list of famous adoptees:

Entertainers
Halle Berry -- actress

Shari Belafonte-Harper -- actress

Ingrid Bergman -- actress

Richard Burton -- actor

Charlotte Church -- singer

Nat King Cole -- singer

Ella Fitzgerald -- singer

Melissa Gilbert -- actress

Sara Gilbert -- actress

Deborah Harry -- singer

Faith Hill -- singer

Eartha Kitt -- singer

John Lennon -- musician

Art Linkletter -- comedian

Ray Liotta -- actor

Sarah McLachlan -- singer

Marilyn Monroe -- actress

Priscilla Presley -- actress

Buffy Sainte-Marie -- musician

Shania Twain -- singer

Writers
Edward Albee

Louisa May Alcott

Maya Angelou

Charles Dickens

Langston Hughes

James Michener

Edgar Allen Poe

Leo Tolstoy

Athletes
Surya Bonaly -- figure skater

Peter and Kitty Carruthers -- figure skaters

Scott Hamilton -- figure skater

Greg Louganis -- diver

Dan O'Brien -- decathlete

Jim Palmer -- baseball player

Political leaders
Alexander the Great

Senator Robert Byrd

President William Clinton

President Gerald Ford

President Herbert Hoover

Representative Jim Lightfoot

Nelson Mandela -- former president of South Africa

Senator Paull H. Shin

Anthony Williams -- mayor of Washington, D.C.

First ladies
Nancy Reagan

Eleanor Roosevelt

Business leaders
Larry Ellison -- chairman and CEO of Oracle Corporation

Steve Jobs -- cofounder of Apple Computer

Tom Monaghan -- founder and CEO of Domino's Pizza

Dave Thomas -- founder of Wendy's International

Philosophers
Aristotle

Jean Jacques Rousseau

Others
John J. Audubon -- naturalist

Les Brown -- motivational speaker

George Washington Carver -- inventor

Lynnette Cole -- Miss USA 2000

Crazy Horse -- Lakota chief

Faith Daniels -- news anchor

Jesse Jackson -- political activist

Charlotte Anne Lopez -- Miss Teen USA 1993

Malcolm X -- civil rights leader

Moses -- Hebrew prophet

Wilson Riles -- educator

"Dr. Ruth" Westheimer -- sex therapist and radio personality

Of course, I'm fairly sure there's no harm in saying that it might really bake your noodle if you ever found out your 'enemies' loved you first.

And I guess that's why they call it the blues. :)

And, pardon if I reiterate this little exchange from 'Concerned Christian:'

""And where is the evidence that witches/pagans are being hunted down??? Maybe Iran???""

"Actually, last week in Illinois someone threw kerosene on a Pagan shopowner and tried to burn her alive. Thank the Gods for inexperience, since the assailant apparently got the flint of her lighter wet while trying to wrestle the 'Witch' down and set her alight."

And when people protest what you Conservative Christians demand, when they know they;re getting ripped off, you call the common people 'A nation of whiners.'

You lot. 'Concerned Christian.'

You're the whiners.

po' lil oppressed Concerned Christian.

Four letters. Starting in S and ending in U.

You see, Concerned Christian, I'm not sure you entirely understand, given as you are to freak out about abstract threats from how you read other people's books as you are...

What I have spoken of mischancing to see is no metaphor, no 'Scriptural Truth,' no fevered literalistic imagination.

I'm talking about things I've actually literally seen in the real world. As it's so reckoned. Frankly, I have apparently literally forgotten more about violence and 'man's inhumanity to man' than most Bible-beaters can even try to imagine. When I say I've crossed swords with pedophiles, this is no metaphor. Someone was actually swinging some very sharp steel at me.

When I say I've dealt with 'witch-huners,' it wasn't about 'spells.' It was about crazy SOBs with guns.

When I say Fundies are wont to call in DSS thinking they're 'righteous' saying they've 'witnessed child abuse' cause Pagans are celebrating spring, this is no exaggeration.

When I say they want to use state property to 'command' worship of their God and no other, then wade into our ceremonies with bullhorns, this is *not* figurative.

And when you say, 'Well, Muslims would be worse,' Concerned Christian, it is *not* America.

""Me thinks" you have continuously used the phrase "Do no harm" as the mantra of Wiccanism."

You thinks wrong. As I said, 'Do no Harm' is not the Rede, the Rede is not a *mantra,* and Wicca isn't called 'Wiccanism.'

" So it is in reality "If it harms none, do what you will". And that is different than "Do no harm"??"

Uhhh... Yes?

" So how now does harming/killing/ eliminating growing babies not harmful to said babies????"

You're getting ahead of yourself, here.

"And so you don't believe in spells and associated witchcraft but still are a Wiccan witch?"

Ahh, I don't believe your claptrap about whatever you think it is when you embarrass yourself about it?

"And like Indian tribe dancers, practitioners of witchcraft are good for tourism."

Ah, your self-hating heritage comes through. But even in Salem, Wiccans aren't really all so good at enhancing the appeal of some 'Custer's Massacre Memorial Of People Who Weren't There Yet,' Cause No One Wants To Read Arthur Miller And 'See Where Congregationalists Went Bugfool' just lacks panache. :)

" We see a group of Druids recently marched around Stonehedge before an archeological dig began."

What? Where? I don't know where you got this from, but, actually, walking in circles around a site before you go digging up ancestors' bones is called 'Hallowing' and something done out of respect for the dead.

"And where is the evidence that witches/pagans are being hunted down??? Maybe Iran???"

Actually, last week in Illinois someone threw kerosene on a Pagan shopowner and tried to burn her alive. Thank the Gods for inexperience, since the assailant apparently got the flint of her lighter wet while trying to wrestle the 'Witch' down and set her alight.

I mean, really. Worst they're gonna do is like CCNL says. About Alzheimer's, to try and demand we have a spell or a drug to 'Eliminate the sex drive.' In the name of 'Life' keep your body going long after your brain's not ticking over so good, wait till you're a toddler again and train you to say 'Jesus' so they can feel like they're in control of something.

That's not 'soul,' and never was. Some just can't accept it.

I happen to love America. Deeply. Across lives. With all of that thing 'Concerned Christians' just don't *get* for all their words and would-be controls. I will fight to preserve this.

I won't, however, pretend some barely-animated cadaver of our beloved nation still lives and breathes, if someone decides she's better off brain-dead and wants to call it 'life.'

I'll go, with a dear one of mine, and try and stay out of a sad part of history's way.

We're not there, quite yet. But. Dag.

Closer than I expected.

It doesn't have to come down like this.

It really doesn't. If we all just *chill* a minute.

CCNL always wants a 'spell,' ...here's a spell.

"We the people. Of The United States.
In order to form a more perfect union. Establish Justice,
Ensure domestic Tranquility,
Provide for the common defense,
Promote the general Welfare, and
Secure the blessings of Liberty
To ourselves and our Posterity
Do ordain and establish
This Constitution
For the United States of America."

So mote it be.

Got a problem with that, Concerned Christian?

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

"Me thinks" you have continuously used the phrase "Do no harm" as the mantra of Wiccanism. So it is in reality "If it harms none, do what you will". And that is different than "Do no harm"?? So how now does harming/killing/ eliminating growing babies not harmful to said babies????

And so you don't believe in spells and associated witchcraft but still are a Wiccan witch?

And like Indian tribe dancers, practitioners of witchcraft are good for tourism. We see a group of Druids recently marched around Stonehedge before an archeological dig began.

And where is the evidence that witches/pagans are being hunted down??? Maybe Iran???

It's impolite to point, but,

*pointing at CCNL.*

That is not America.

*We* are. Among others. Whatever his lot say. It's a damn panic. But we are going to *not panic.* Especially not religiously.

The 'Cowans,' lady, are having a pretty bad time working this situation out. Manifestly. Screamingly, wailingly, hair-tearingly-breast-beatingly-tragicomically SNAFUBARickally. (New word, yay!) Gods know this civilization thing has rarely seemed ready for prime-time for long.

Frankly, it's recently occurred to me that the world as we know it may just be the very picture of the wrong side of an 'evil parallel universe,' and maybe any minute now the wise and intelligent and benificent President Bush will be sending in relief forces to aid us against his evil twin... :)

I mean, hey. We're 'Witches,' and the self-proclaimed 'Forces of Good' are all about making a fortune by accelerating some 'End of the World' through impressively-righteous, yet profitable deceit, superstitious ignorance, dumbed-down spin, financial leverage, and strife...

Does that seem right to you?

I do not make a practice of trying to name 'evil,' but.... *backwards?*

I do see some backwards, here.

So, I say, lady Keir. Someone else told us that it's a grand idea to get croaked on some other religion's principle.

What if that's backwards, too?

Nothing's forgotten. And all this, ....ain't no thing.

Just was expensive to build, and contrary to the beliefs of some with great realiance but little command of the English language, not easy to replicate if someone decides to crash the whole deal cause it's 'simpler.'

We can get medieval any ol' time.

Don't get many chances to see what we can make of *this,* though.

The 'once born' think this is all about their personal deaths.

Can't really see a world before or after their own brains.

And they'll hurt or kill over it.

If there is any point to us speaking here, though, Lady, it's that we are in fact *better than that.* They'll argue day in and day out that humanity is degraded and awful and doesn't deserve to live, thus must 'be fruitful and multiply' till 'dominion' results in utter devastation..

It's *important,* of course, that we make sure this wasn't a massive waste of time, but when it comes down to actually buying into their 'Us Vs Them' thinking, well.

What are they gonna do, croak us?

Got the T-shirt.

These are our people too, whether they are trying to hang us or not.

It's tremendously-frustrating.

For a Concerned Croissant

Part the Fourth

It seemed CC thought in France he'd be home
But the French croissants thought him a gnome.
Fluff tried to persuade him to return to the well,
But a stubborn case proved CCNL.

If that's Terra, there...

Lady, trying to save em from themselves *is* fighting a 'battle' that ain't our concern on a field of a self-proclaimed 'enemy's' choosing.

Personally, I say, it gets down they wanna burn us for 'Witches,' this is the place where we get back to some 'roots,' if you know what I mean. :)

As Americans, as Pagans, as 'people of faith,' we stand up. Just as if some foreign enemy were trying to take away that liberty.

If it comes down to 'cowans' deciding that liberty's not such a great idea after all, we are under *no* obligation to be scapegoats or martyrs.

As I like to say, Being an American Pagan means never having to regret having but one life to give for your country. Play it smart, Lady. :)

Greetings Arminus and Freinds,
Well since we are slideing down to a bannana republic with nukes...(took that from somewhere)I guess there will be a bumpy road for a while. 1.02 TRILLION dollars lost today. I wonder what that means to my husbands pension...a problem a real problem because of people playing politics. Personaly I place House Republicans along side of ticks and mosquitos.

Other then that...how has your day been?

Arminius, I will be beside you and Butterfly with my two yappy chihuahuas. That'll teachum. Of course my sword and staff will be with me too...I am going no where. Heck I am not leaving the field to those Cowans.

terra

I mean, CCNL, are you somehow not understanding, here? Your obsessions with 'spells' and words in other peoples' books, and doubtless your own, ..has it occurred to you yet that your own obsessive idea of the 'magic power' of words is based in no literacy or reason, or even good religion, just *your* desire to control others?

Who taught you that?

Are you frustratated yet that what's in your head just don't apply, and furthermore offers zero solutions?

You fear something. Furthermore, you blindly think that being on the 'right side' of that mechanism you fear is worth spending all this time creatively-disinterpreting the lives of others for.

Maybe you sincerely just don't get it. But this isn't about Wiccan spells or Kuranic spells, or gos-spells.

Life isn't a pocket calculator. Or whatever you think the Internet is.

This isn't helping you. And, frankly, it's not really 'hurting' those you feel entitled to hurt.

Not in the way you like.

You just repeat your ignorance over and over again.

And you wanna talk about life.

What are *you* doing with the gift of life?

This?

Pathetic.

Very sad, CCNL. For one, the Rede is not a mantra, for another, it's not 'Do No Harm.' That's the Hippocratic Oath.

The Rede says, "If it harms none, do what you will." For someone of such a literal mind, you seem to have an extreme amount of difficulty retaining or comprehending the written word, I observe.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

In summary: And the "do no harm" mantra of Wiccan witches somehow does not pertain to the unborn and those who might inconvenience your life.

This just in:

The Coven of Eleven after dancing and chanting all night around the Farnaz, the prophet of gloom and doom, have declared him not curable and therefore he is permanently spell-bound and doomed forever to his gloom.

For a Confused Croissant

Part the Third

When all the pastry to France had come
Fluff the Muffin took leave of some.
He wished his spiritual mate to find,
For company inviting the clearest in mind.

Although ordered to stay at Cydoimus well,
Skulking behind came CCNL.

-Farnaz 1-10: 2008

I mean, *hey,* CCNL, if, Gods avert, and the worst happens with that potential for, you might even be able to find a point in my mental deterioration where I'll parrot actions of giving some obeisance to whatever God or ideology you chose, then parade what's left of me around for *decades* as a splendid example of an 'Ex-Witch' and whatever your faith is.

Wouldn't everyone feel just so warm and fuzzy.

From Concerned the Christian now Liberated:

"Hmmm, so a growing baby is considered by some to be nothing more than an infection? Talk about having no respect for life!!!!!"

No, no one said that, here. You may be spamming too much. Might wanna look to that.

"Some equate abortions as being equivalent to Nature/God-sanctioned miscarriages. Au Contraire!!!"

Some pro-lifers equate some contraception as being equivalent to something which is in their minds equivalent to the 'miscarriage' of having your period after a 'conceived' blastula either fails to implant or fails to trigger the uterus not to flush it, though.

Not too fussed about the endocrine disruptors in the food, even the baby bottles, though, I notice, those types.

"Nature or Nature's God is the #1 taker of everyone's life. That gives some rational for killing the unborn or those suffering from dementia, mental disease or Alzheimer's or anyone who might inconvenience your life???"

If you see Nature as that hostile, actually, that's the rationale for exposing unwanted or defective babies, or leaving them in dumpsters, or hospital waiting rooms, or whathaveyou.

We have the means to prevent these eventualities. If we choose to. But calling abortion or contraception 'murder' and criminalizing women with no rights to their own bodies isn't the way, if you don't want this to happen.

It's nothing to do with Alzheimer's, but being at some risk for the early onset form, myself, *I'd* want to have my choice recognized that people shouldn't feel obligated by some state-imposed 'morality' to put me through *that* just cause they have an immature idea of what 'life' *is.* Especially after making health care that could prevent it so inaccessible.

I don't fear death in that way you espouse, such that I'd be willing to put people through so-profitable hardship to keep a distorted effigy of who I was walking around. Doesn't mean I advocate killing off people considered *defective,* but I'd like my loved ones to have the right to let me go, according to my wishes.

"We constantly battle the forces of nature. We do not succumb to these forces by eliminating defenseless children!!!!!"

Ah, with your types, everything's a war or a battle... before or after anyone's even *there,* you want to make a war of it. Look what this 'war' of yours has wrought.

It's not a battle, CCNL. It's living. It is what it is. Your belief system may be one which tried to define absolutes in a time wherewhere people had no control over birth or death or circumstances ...or feeding their kids, ...but we do. We have to deal with the nuances. You could keep my body walking around crapping Pampers long after there's any real life there...

With that power comes responsibility.

Your hyperbole helps no children. Or aged.

From Concerned the Christian now Liberated:

Hmmm, so a growing baby is considered by some to be nothing more than an infection? Talk about having no respect for life!!!!!

Some equate abortions as being equivalent to Nature/God-sanctioned miscarriages. Au Contraire!!!

Nature or Nature's God is the #1 taker of everyone's life. That gives some rational for killing the unborn or those suffering from dementia, mental disease or Alzheimer's or anyone who might inconvenience your life???

We constantly battle the forces of nature. We do not succumb to these forces by eliminating defenseless children!!!!!

Now we're all getting lazy or forgetful about signing in by screen names, here. :)

Hopefully new topic, soon, seems everyone on the planet's said all they have to say about this issue.

Hold on Farnaz, the Coven of Eleven will be there soon and your gloom and doom will be forever purged.

For a Confused Croissant

Part the Second

Fluff the Magic Muffin went to sea
Along came biscuits, rolls, crackers as well
At the end of the aromatic parade
Saled the Confused Croissant CCNL

"And you are saying that "female-slaughter" is a way to modernize?"

No.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Still suffering from the Wiccan gloom and doom spell I see. Should we send in a Coven of Eleven to do the Spell Removal Dance around you??

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Hate pagans?? No way!!! "Do no harm" is great summary of life.

And I enjoy reading about the myriad of spells, witchcraft and voodoo since it reminds me so much of Christianity and Islam.

And you are saying that "female-slaughter" is a way to modernize?? Considering that conception is microbiology, there are ways to address selecting the sex of your offspring without resulting to killing "womb babies". Said ways simply need some added research.

In the meantime, those in India, Pakistan and China who consider females to be burdens to the family and society must be educated about the equality of gods and goddesses.

Tyranny is unlikely to come with anything so splashy as troops in the streets, ...that'd eventually turn even the radical Christians against it. It'll come of cruel equations where the wealthiest control all the capital and information about what's happening is controlled, ... Then they can rely on fear and thuggery.
==================================

Control of resources goes hand in hand with control of information and the two have been waltzing down the streets here for a very long time. Sometimes, misinformation, disinformation are due to deliberate distortion, suppression, more often defacto. The truth about this or that is readily available, but just doesn't find its way into the common body of knowledge.

Belief systems form around gaps and distortions; when given information (verifiable, factual) that has always been available holders of said beliefs resist them like the SARs virus.

The nature of the beast...

So it goes, so it has gone....

"Speaking for the fetal population of the USA is somehow bigoted????"

Yes, if you are claiming that your hatred for Pagans starts in the womb, it is, Concerned Christian.

People selecting for gender in their kids in India and China are a result of sexism combined with an economic situation where a lot of people couldn't afford more kids, in the first instance, and sexism combined with the population control laws of the Chinese regime in the second.

China, of course, felt to have a more pressing need than reproductive freedom, lest they strangle under their own population's weight. Of course, you'd be OK with churning out female children and selling them to sweat shops as children till the coveted son arrives?

So you think it's not OK to impoverish or coerce women into having to abort fetuses, but it's OK to coerce them into unwanted pregnancies?

That's hardly consistent.

In America, what we have is the individual freedom of an informed populace, *not* control over women 'kept in their place' and a population not allowed to make informed decisions for themselves.

For now, anyway.

India and China have been struggling to *modernize.* Why do you think the answer is trying to *medievalize* over here?

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Speaking for the fetal population of the USA is somehow bigoted????

And someone really needs to speak for the female fetal population of India and China as they are being aborted in record numbers simply because they are female in a gruesome display of "female-slaughter".

Thor's child:

"I agree that the extreme left is sparsely populated these days. However, since I have seen/heard people with the 'any abortion, any time, for any reason' position, I disagree with your assertion that they don't exist, in fact it appears that about a quarter of the population hold that view or one close to it.*"

I would have to disagree with that assessment: certainly it isn't a mainstream pro-choice position: I certainly haven't heard anyone advocating that in a long time, and I get around.

And even those few who take an extreme civil liberties view of it aren't actually *advocating* the 'Late Term Abortion As Birth Control' position conservatives always try to pin on anything less than their total control over women. That's a mirage.

Frankly, that 'Any Abortion Any Time' position you cite isn't even *under discussion* in our government, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

No one *likes* abortion, and it's pretty disingenuous... heck, let's just call it deceptive, of the 'pro-lifers' to pretend as if that's the alternative to whatever control they want to impose. It's like claiming if my sweetie and I aren't discriminated against in the Constitution, everyone's gonna run out and marry goats.

Whereas the 'pro life' people are assaulting reproductive rights and even education on all fronts.

Well, I'm thinking the scariest thing about the McCain campaign is the Palin thing... The fact she has so much in common with Quayle, only worse, does make me wonder if McCain doesn't have plans to do some terrible stuff, counting on America to be too afraid of who'd replace him if he got the ouster. He's certainly been standing for more and worse of the same on the economy.

My plan isn't to leave, though: if things got that bad, who says we'd be able to, really. It'd really mean our democratic process was totally-suborned by deceptions and religious radicalism. We, the American people just can't allow this, is what it comes down to. We can't afford it.

As for what 'fetuses' might think, keep in mind that conservative policies actually *increase* the number of abortions, so I don't think CCNL's bigoted comment there really has much to do with it.

They might wonder why the sudden increase in toxins they're getting fed before they're even born, why Mom isn't getting enough to eat and is all stressed out all the time, though, under a McCain administration.

Tyranny is unlikely to come with anything so splashy as troops in the streets, ...that'd eventually turn even the radical Christians against it. It'll come of cruel equations where the wealthiest control all the capital and information about what's happening is controlled, ... Then they can rely on fear and thuggery.

For Pagans, being *part* of the community is our best protection. Few out here *are* more committed to the promise of America. Cause we're among the first to know when people start compromising it.

PP: I agree that the extreme left is sparsely populated these days. However, since I have seen/heard people with the 'any abortion, any time, for any reason' position, I disagree with your assertion that they don't exist, in fact it appears that about a quarter of the population hold that view or one close to it.*

My point was, and is, that Roe v. Wade *is already* a compromise between the extremes on both ends. Such a compromise is really the only practical political solution in a pluralistic society. We can and should have an honest and open debate on exactly what the abortion restrictions should be. At the same time, the extremists (mainly on the right, granted) should not be permitted to turn it into a 'war'/'fight'/'battle' hate-filled, divisive scream-fest. America should be better than that.

*http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=830

Anonymous:
Arminius and pagans are fleeing to Mexico if JM and SP win. The USA fetal population will be quite happy to see them go.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go back and read the posts again. Not all of us are leaving.
I plan to do all I can to ensure that my daughter and my niece have the right to an abortion if they should find themselves needing or wanting one.
I believe Arminius has said something very similar.
This is my country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, and when wrong, to be put right. If McVain wins, there will be lots of putting right to do when he leaves office.

I've been thinking about New Zealand....

Arminius and pagans are fleeing to Mexico if JM and SP win. The USA fetal population will be quite happy to see them go.

Arminius,
Meet you at the barricades, my friend. Bring your claymore, I'll bring my cane knife.

Hi, Terra,

I considered moving to Mexico or Canada if McWorse and St Sarah win. But I decided, what the hell, I'm gonna stay and man the barricades. There may be blood in the streets. Anyway, my kids would still be here.

As to light and dark - I was getting spiritual. I am quite happy at night, but, being a morning person, my favorite is that time in the morning when the dark moves to light - what Steinbeck describes as "...the hour of the pearl, the interval between day and night when time stops and examines itself."

Arminus,
There is so much more hanging on this election then I ever remember before...may be JFK and the civil rights that he started and LBJ continued.

My husband has said we would sell out and move to mexico...it seems that there would be quite a migration if Mclame and Failin should win. I think though that we would need to stay and make sure that those who believe in the hope of America does not leave the place to those who would crush the great experiment. Seems that that is what the Declaration of Independence says...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

~~
terra

Hell, I forgot the link! Here is the column about the nasty things the states could do if Roe vs Wade gets trashed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/26/AR2008092602833.html

Ok I will try the preview thingy...

Ok I hope it works..I am not anon..lol. Anon is a better poet.

terra

Arminus,
The name was a reminder to me that there is dark and dark is just another part of life. Not good, not bad...just is. I can get very philosophical...lol. Like Go out side in the morning and look around..see the light, and how it filters through the trees..see the sights, hear the sounds.Breathe in the morning air.
Now go out at dusk and do the same thing...from the same place. Look around at the light,hear the sounds, does it seem different, give a different feeling? More hushed?
Now go out at night..look around, breath in the night...hear the sounds...is there anything scary about it or merely different? Night/Dark or Day/Light...we all are both.

Anyway that was my thoughts at the time.

Blessings,
terra

All,

You might want to read this column in WaPo - what nasty things the states can do if Roe vs Wade is overthrown.

Hi, Terra/Keir -

Keir? I think of you as light, not dark.

I think that our man Obama won, but not by much. I think McWorse did better in the first half. But Obama shone in the last half, national security, despite John's 'been there done that' stuff.

Ok... This is Terra-I have had a heck of a time getting here...seems my old moniker is in some kind of limbo and will not work. They say I am here...but will not accept the name and pw. So I guess I am Keir...(another handle).It is Gaelic for Dark.

So how did you all like the Debate? How big did you all feel Obama won? He hit it I think. McCain was like the old man hollering at the kids to get off his lawn. He was crabby and could not look at Obama at all. Even when Obama was dishing out the smack downs (politley) he looked at "John". Even agreed with him when it warrented.

keir AKA terra

"One of the first well-known fatwas was proclaimed in 1989 by the Iranian Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, against Salman Rushdie‘s novel The Satanic Verses.

The argument related to an ostensibly blasphemous statement from an early biography of Prophet Muhammad, regarding incorporating pagan goddesses into Islam’s strongly monotheistic structure.

Khomeini died shortly after issuing the fatwa. In 1998 Iran stated that it is no longer pursuing Rushdie’s death; however the decree was again reversed in early 2005 by the present theocrat, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

In 1991, Rushdie's Japanese translator, Hitoshi Igarashi, was stabbed and killed in Tokyo, and his Italian translator was beaten and stabbed in Milan. In 1993, Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was shot and severely injured in an attack outside his house in Oslo. Thirty-seven guests died when their hotel in Sivas, Turkey was burnt down by locals protesting against Aziz Nesin, Rushdie's Turkish translator."

Hmmm and the preceding information does not scare the "maypoles" out of non-Muslims??????

Actually Rushdie's following satire sounds a lot more damaging than mentioning a pagan goddess:

From his book "Satanic Verses", p. 376, paperback issue -

"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

As for 'fighting Pagans till there's no more tumult or oppression,' well, it so happens we have no attachment to these things to speak of.

Kind of ironic Bin Laden, schooled in asymmetrical warfare as he is, really somehow thinks that one day he can win peace with some theoretical someday taking the exact same kind of power over others he claims to be fighting.

He's just that vain, and doesn't really expect to 'win,' in that way. It just sounds good to justify his little 'war.'

Maybe 'Concerned Christians' fear some kind of 'Red Dawn' scenario of radical Islam 'taking over,' here, (makes a great scare tactic for some) but if we maintain our liberties *here,* and look out for our own welfare, no one will be able to do that. It's foolishness to expect total safety by eliminating a religion, as if that were possible, and that goes for both Muslims and Christians. You've tried it before.

We're not *afraid* in the manner you'd have us be, CCNL. The only way to defeat guerillas and terrorists in the long term is to make them irrelevant.

Bin Laden's basically a glorified dilettante. If he took something over right now, he would not be able to make life better for any nation of people. All he can do is break things. So it is with any such type.

(PP) Sigh. Guess CCNL's beyond the usual level of nonsense.

"As for the Qu'ran being anti-Pagan, I've never been threatened with either physical or spiritual harm by a Muslim. Can't say the same for Christians."

Well, I've been threatened by both. Once was in a theological discussion with a Muslim who pretty casually said, 'One day you'll be put to the sword,' ...I was like, 'Well, that'll be an interesting day. We got some swords, too.'

Not sure what glory there'd be in that for the guy *these* days, of course, but what can you do.

If I ran around screaming about everyone with a holy book that says it's OK to kill me, I'd be ...well, pretty constantly freaked out.

No, wouldn't be too comfy in Iran. But my real concern is people in America even making the *comparison.* America's supposed to be way better than that.

My Dear Croissant,

"Hmmm, a Jewish "prophet" of doom and gloom then?"

Do not dip yourself into the brew. Sogginess from there ensues.

Hmmm, Farnaz in not a Christian? Hmmm, a Jewish "prophet" of doom and gloom then? A pagan? A Wiccan? A Muslim (Allah forbid)? A Mormon missionary? Being under a pagan spell does confuse many.

Btw., Concerned Croissant,

I'm not Christian.

'No spell, and I see no one bowing. Just folks who show common courtesy and respect for other people's beliefs. You could learn a thing or five from them"

Yes, well, that's what I thought when I saw Arminius and PP posting here. But L, did you know that CCNL is a Croissant? A Concerned Croissant? That changes everything, I think. Arminius figured this out. See below. :)

Hmmm, we ponder the question, how many pagans/Wiccans are there in Iran and/or Pakistan??

Not many based on the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_fatwas

"One of the first well-known fatwas was proclaimed in 1989 by the Iranian Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, against Salman Rushdie‘s novel The Satanic Verses.

The argument related to an ostensibly blasphemous statement from an early biography of Prophet Muhammad, regarding incorporating pagan goddesses into Islam’s strongly monotheistic structure.

Khomeini died shortly after issuing the fatwa. In 1998 Iran stated that it is no longer pursuing Rushdie’s death; however the decree was again reversed in early 2005 by the present theocrat, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

In 1991, Rushdie's Japanese translator, Hitoshi Igarashi, was stabbed and killed in Tokyo, and his Italian translator was beaten and stabbed in Milan. In 1993, Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was shot and severely injured in an attack outside his house in Oslo. Thirty-seven guests died when their hotel in Sivas, Turkey was burnt down by locals protesting against Aziz Nesin, Rushdie's Turkish translator."

"Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, jointly with Ayman al-Zawahiri, proclaimed a fatwa in 1998 in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring, "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies – civilians and military – is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [in Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [in Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

This is in accordance with the words of Almighty

God, 'and fight the pagans

all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God.'"

Anonymous (CCNL?):

Hmmm, we see the "amoral" witch has cast a Wiccan spell over the likes of Arminius and the "prophet" Farnaz". Looks like the spell will last for a change. And what book of candle powers did she extract that one from? Must be powerful stuff to get Christians to bow to paganism.

>>>No spell, and I see no one bowing. Just folks who show common courtesy and respect for other people's beliefs. You could learn a thing or five from them.

And she says spells cannot conquer the sex drive, pay off mortgages and delete the warmongering, anti-pagan passages of the koran!! Obviously she is not being truthful considering the spell it took to bring two liberal Christian Democrats to their knees.

>>>A healthy sex drive is not an enemy to be conquered. The Pagan way to pay off debt isn't to devise a spella gainst it, but to work for a living, and to avoid taking on more debt than you can pay - you know, personal responsibility. Sometimes, things happen that you didn't count on - layoffs, catastrophic illnesses, general economic snafus - and you find yourself unable to make the payments that you previously agreed on. The Pagan thing to do there is not to look for a spell to make it all go away - we do what everyone else does - contact creditors and attempt to negotiate an amended payment agreement that will allow us to continue to feed our families, live in our homes, and make at least nominal good faith payments on our debts until the financial situation improves - that whole personal responsibility thing again.
As for the Qu'ran being anti-Pagan, I've never been threatened with either physical or spiritual harm by a Muslim. Can't say the same for Christians.

Hmmm, we see the "amoral" witch has cast a Wiccan spell over the likes of Arminius and the "prophet" Farnaz". Looks like the spell will last for a change. And what book of candle powers did she extract that one from? Must be powerful stuff to get Christians to bow to paganism.

And she says spells cannot conquer the sex drive, pay off mortgages and delete the warmongering, anti-pagan passages of the koran!! Obviously she is not being truthful considering the spell it took to bring two liberal Christian Democrats to their knees.

Maybe she has a Coven of Eleven working on them??

PBS, CBS pundits all giving Obama a slight edge. Inspired confidence, showed himself knowledgeable. Palin-Biden debate should be something. Don't know if I'll be able to stand it. I'm no fan of Palin, but bloodshed makes me nervous.

I think it was a draw. I think Obama scored on the fact that we shouldn't have been in Iraq to begin with, that we've neglected Afghanistan.

Both missed the point with Patraes. All the generals knew we needed more troops. Patraes was the last in line at the end of the line, so he got them.

McCain weak on health care, very weak, unconvincing about taxes. Offensive with his accusations of inexperience, what Obama didn't "understand." Obama seemed not only to rise above but to prove McCain wrong.

Think probably a draw. I "feel" Obama did better, but that, I think, is because I support him. Think it's a draw.

(PP)

Well, I really have to say, Obama cleaned up on the economy. The foreign policy thing, I'm pretty sure it's all gonna be interpreted through pundits. McCain kept getting caught stumbling: there was substance to the debate, and I think he showed he has no clue, but I don't think people are really gonna *get* it considering how uninformed most are these days.

Not a great night for Jim Lehrer, really, what it comes down to.

I give Obama a modest victory, based on the second half of the debate.

Obama is right about the presence of China, in some cases with a heavy hand, in some cases with jobs and food. The locus classicus for the latter is Pakistan.

Obama good on Afghanistan...Must walk more softly with Pakistan. Very dangerous there, now.
Last prez a dictator. Current prez a thug. Many believe guilty for wife's death. Situation very dangerous for US.

No one likely to change his mind from this debate. McCain has lied on some things. Some accomplishments he mentions are very true.

My guess: No one will change her mind after this debate.

That Anonymous was yours truly. Also, Obama better on energy.

Both talked down to the working class, but Obama came off ahead, way ahead, IMO.

Obama didn't answer question about 92,000,000 in earmarks. But came off better on the economy, overall, IMO. He's right about Ahmadinejad. He's not the most powerful man in Iran. Also, preconditions is always a euphemism for do what we say. Iranian economy is a horror as Obama says.

Ahmadinejad wasn't even "elected" for the most part. Some who legitimately did support him did so because he promised to improve the economy. There are demonstrations every day due to lack of jobs. Iran is wealthy. Ahmadinejad is incompetent and corrupt.

Hard to believe Obama is well informed about Kissinger. Hard to believe he said publicly that we should negotiate without preconditions (i.e., we do it MY way).

McCain keeps creating the impression of a hands-on guy who's right there in Iraq, Pakistan, Russia, Georgia. Obama shouldn't let this go on much longer.

Obama is right about Pakistan, but the Pakistanis don't like to hear what he's saying about US troops in Pakistan. "Don't like" isn't good. McCain's right. Obama needs to be careful about what he says.

McCain is lying about a lot of things economic policy wise.

Obama is doing well on Afghanistan. First time tonight. He's on a roll - there is hope.

McWorse is giving false answers. Obama is dodging the answers.

I grieve for my country.

(PP)

Wow, I was wrong. McCain walked in with *nothing.* I'm sure the drool is running out the corner of most American's mouths about the economic discussion, but he's smoked.

The debate is on. I am off for a while.

Hi Arminius,

Thanks! Yes, Arminius isn't closely associated with Episcopalians I don't think. But he does seem to flow into several Christian denominations. I became interested in him when I read of the persecution of Anne Hutchinson under Governor Winthrop, but those Puritans weren't exactly what you'd call into pluralism. She was a huge problem for them as was Roger Williams. One could not say that either one of them wasn't Christian. What to do!

Well, the Ps figured it out. Anyway, Jacobus probably didn't have much of a sense of humor, but I recall a certain clairy in his thought. Also, he was strongly opposed to slavery and seemed to understand what racism was, although, of course they didn't have a word for it then.

Farnaz,

Yes, I have been asked about Jacobus before. No deal there. Good guess though, and touches on your good education.

Hi Arminius,

Ah, I thought you had in mind Jacobus Arminius--you know, Arminianism?

Farnaz

Hi, Farnaz,

One of that posts still puzzles me. No matter.

OK, then, the handle Arminius. Historical figure was he, indeed, but no Christian.

The year is 9 AD (aka CE). Place, the border between Roman occupied Gaul and Germania. A Roman army, under Varus, has invaded Germania. With Varus is Arminius, a German, ostensibly his ally. When the legions had entered the Teutobugerwald, Arminius said he would scout ahead. Unknown to Varus, but known to Arminius, the woods lining the narrow trail were haunted with Germans ready to fight. Arminius disappeared, and the next three days saw the total slaughter of three Roman legions. When the emperor Augustus heard this, he beat his head against the wall, screaming "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!". (Quintilus Varus, give me back my legions!).

Why this handle for me? Another story. I have no Germanic ancestry, beyond any Angles or Saxons who invaded Britain and mingled with the natives.

Arminius

(from PP)

Well, in all likelihood, he's gonna spin a line of soundbytes it'll take longer than the American attention span to figure out were totally off-base. Otherwise he wouldn't show.

Reply: er.... uh.... say What?

Next, PP, try the Preview thing. It does work.

Hi Arminius,

Yes, both were from me. WaPo has an interesting article surmising that both M & O will be "channeling" the "populist" economics of Edwards--sounds quite likely.

But there was a great Christian named Arminius....A great Protestant. Am I on the right track?

(from PP)

Well, in all likelihood, he's gonna spin a line of soundbytes it'll take longer than the American attention span to figure out were totally off-base. Otherwise he wouldn't show.

Farnaz,

Were both those posts yours? Does not read like you.

This should be a very lively debate. Lotsa sticky icky gooey common ordinary working guy appeals. Let's see....Who's gonna get whom to blow it? Hmmmm

Hi Arminius,

I think so. A great Christian, IMHO. Am I right?

Farnaz

Hi, Farnaz,

I ain't nobody's genius. I'm just an old guy who's read a lot of history. But thanks!

Arminius

(by the way, do you know the origin of my handle?)

Hi Arminius,

Re: CCNL, Islamophobia, Croissants

I didn't catch the reference either. You are a genius.

Farnaz

Hi, Farnaz,

CCNL is a renowned anti-Islamic bigot. Also bigoted against many other things. Anyway, the croissant, that delectable crescent-shaped pastry, is today associated with France. But it originated, most probably, in east Europe. One candidate is Vienna, who reputably created it after (one of) the sieges of Vienna, as a victory symbol. Shaped in the Islamic crescent. I doubt if CCNL ever caught the reference.

(from PP.) BTW, word is McCain is now no longer going to not show up for the debate, though it may be too late to make the TV listings... that way he can maybe both not be called on weaseling out of the debates to obstruct Congress... while not actually being watched.

Let's see, here.

Hi Arminius,

Now this is interesting:

Confused the Croissant now Lostinspace, aka CCNL.

I toyed with this for awhile:

Concerned Christian Never-endingly Loony

But I like the idea of a Croissant--I'm not sure why. Why do you associate CCNL with a Croissant?

Yours, in admiration,

Farnaz

Paganplace,

Regarding your posts about/against CCNL, you said:
"But he voices things that many people think and never see confronted out in the open."

Point taken. I see now. Thanks.

Arminius

(from PP)

"Me: so what's your point? I too deal with that ignorance."

Of 'witch hunts?' Homophobia? Being trivialized when you want to stand for your rights, and demonized when you want to celebrate them?

" MY point is that sooner or later - usually sooner with this type of person - you reach a point where you realize that any further effort will be wasted. Can you not see that CCNL will never change?"

As I've said before, likely not.

But he voices things that many people think and never see confronted out in the open.

People think stupid things *secretly* all the time. He wants to mouthpiece, then, well... for what *that's* worth.

Maybe *they* won't learn either. But that's up to them.

It's not about CCNL and never was, except to *him.* He's obviously got some ego-conflict about a heritage he claims, and at once despises as 'weak' cause he feels *let down* by it.

He was offered *another* kind of power to appease this, but obviously can't quite rest easy in that skin. So he blames Muslims. And where necessary, us.

He thinks he mocks us, but in the end only mocks himself.

But no one said it was really about him, or me, or books, or anything.

Just life. He's part of that, too.

Paganplace, you wrote,

"Well, Arminius, what you may not understand is that, though few will openly cop to it, ignorance and attitude like CCNL's are actually something we have to deal with all too often, just to get mundane business done."

Me: so what's your point? I too deal with that ignorance. MY point is that sooner or later - usually sooner with this type of person - you reach a point where you realize that any further effort will be wasted. Can you not see that CCNL will never change? But if it gives you some pleasure to continue to try, well, WTF, go for it.

(It's PP again. I will try Farnaz' helpful hint, here.)

Well, Arminius, what you may not understand is that, though few will openly cop to it, ignorance and attitude like CCNL's are actually something we have to deal with all too often, just to get mundane business done.

If it weren't so, I probably wouldn't be sitting here dealing with unnecessary pain and wondering what's supposed to be so hard about not eating for a space.

Too many people *do* walk around thinking we're all about 'spells' and wondering why we aren't anti-sex.

I was just laughing to my sweetie about it, actually: "A Wiccan Spell to eliminate the sex drive? That'd be like a Christian prayer to eliminate forgiveness."

Which I gather CCNL longs for, too. But there's a context to these things.

Hi, Farnaz,

That trick about the preview works just fine.

(Arminius here....)

To all thinking members here - and there are many:

One definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

We have proof of that here: Confused the Croissant now Lostinspace, aka CCNL.

We have dealt with him over a year, tried without result to converse with him, and he has never changed his tune.

Proof positive.

Best to ignore him, and move on to something productive.

Arminius

Actually, I did have that right the first time. Speaking of breathing, I gotta quiet some pain receptors, here. Meanwhile, CCNL, you got a problem with that, give me my knees and hips back.

Correction: 'It's the people who *don't* own their own sex drives,' yadda yadda. :)

(PP sighs at CCNL.)

OK. Since we've otherwise descended to tech talk:

"From Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

"Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

"My sex drive is alive and well."

Then why are you obsessed with the notion of a pill or spell to eliminate it?

Or is that pill or spell just for 'the little people?'

"It is those irresponsible people who do not protect themselves or who cannot control themselves who are the problem. This irresponsibility is abundantly clear from the over one million abortions and nineteen million cases of STDs per year in the USA alone."

I have news for you, toots. It's not the people who own their sex drives, and express them in an educated, responsible way that behave irresponsibly.

The people who behave irresponsibly are the ones who lean on shame and suppression until they are too ashamed, disempowered, and thus occasionally desperate and/or intoxicated to look at what they're doing.

"If you cannot help out with some Wiccan spells then what good is Wiccanism?"

For one, we are not about these 'spells' you obsess on.

For another, in no wise would what you demand constitute 'help.'

"With respect to Islam, the 24/7 blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites creates fear in all parts of the world."

Well, not my little corner of it. It's just sad.

Someone brought that fight to my house, I got a rubber mallet here that'd make my point just fine.

"If you cannot help out with some Wiccan spells then what good is Wiccanism?"

Your idea of help is not help.

"Or is Wiccanism just some good excuse for fun and feasting akin to the evenings of Ramadan???"

Fun and feasting is what it is. We need no excuse. You'd be surprised how quickly excess loses its appeal when no one's making it a battle of shame.

Fasting, that's another discipline. Does what it does.

""Or is there some truth in:

"Anthony Paige, a recent SUNY Purchase College graduate who started a pagan student group there, said Wicca appeals to some college students because "there is no sense of sin.""

There's some truth there, yes. A 'sense of sin' des not inform our senses of right and wrong.

In fact, it's your 'sense of sin' that leads so many to believe that without external restraint, one would *actually want* some kind of endless Bacchanal.

Ain't so.

"And a good witch like yourself should have in her library, Advanced Candle Magick: More Spells and Rituals for Every Purpose (Llewellyn's Practical Magick Series) Raymond Buckland. See p. 87 for information on how to assist those in need of extra money for mortgages."

I've told you before these are not holy texts.

Even Uncle Bucky's Big Blue Workbook. :)

As we call it.

You're the one with the wrong expectations, CCNL.

However, you might actually just find it better to light a single candle than to shut your eyes and 'curse the darkness.'

I'm not the darkness.

"They just forgot to include a line of code that replaces Anonymous with the user ID... easy to do, easy to fix. They'll get it. "

The idea was for us to be able to use the monikers we had always used for OnFaith, which I think is a good idea, since not everyone's WaPo ID is the same as his/her OnFaith ID.

Anyway, if you preview your post, you can then type in your usual OnFaith moniker before pressing "post" and said moniker will appear.

From Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

My sex drive is alive and well.

It is those irresponsible people who do not protect themselves or who cannot control themselves who are the problem. This irresponsibility is abundantly clear from the over one million abortions and nineteen million cases of STDs per year in the USA alone.

If you cannot help out with some Wiccan spells then what good is Wiccanism?

With respect to Islam, the 24/7 blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites creates fear in all parts of the world.

If you cannot help out with some Wiccan spells then what good is Wiccanism?

Or is Wiccanism just some good excuse for fun and feasting akin to the evenings of Ramadan???

Or is there some truth in:

"Anthony Paige, a recent SUNY Purchase College graduate who started a pagan student group there, said Wicca appeals to some college students because "there is no sense of sin.""

And a good witch like yourself should have in her library, Advanced Candle Magick: More Spells and Rituals for Every Purpose (Llewellyn's Practical Magick Series) Raymond Buckland. See p. 87 for information on how to assist those in need of extra money for mortgages.

(from PP) I mean, Thor's child, the only problem with these characterizations of some 'Radical Left' is that they *don't exist.*

They're fabricated by the same people who claim we sacrifice babies eight times a year. The only 'radical leftists' I've encountered in recent decades, actually hawking copies of the 'Worker's Vanguard,' are actually just as 'pro-life' and biologically-determinist and anti-gay as the Aryan Nation, they just justify it differently.

It's a mirage.

And a diversion.

Talk a lot about abortion, and certain people will vote for a guy who clearly ain't firing on all cylinders no more, and his pandering Quayle of a V candidate who can't tell us what the policies she wants to continue *are.*

(Paganplace)

"They just forgot to include a line of code that replaces Anonymous with the user ID... easy to do, easy to fix. They'll get it. "

Well, I think they will. But one thing's clear, they connected the login code through Wapo's general news server, the same one that lets you read full articles. It does not seem to be talking so readily to these discussion boards once a router decides to take a different path. Which on my ISP is annoyingly-frequently, at least.

As for notions that 'pro-choice' has anything to do with a caricatured 'leftist' 'Abortion on demand' crowd, that comes from the people who want to polarize the issue for political gain, not any serious policymakers.

Not that that stops anyone calling you a 'baby killer' if you question their screaming 'Authoritay!'

Thor's Child Wrote the last Anonymous post (and this one too ;)

They just forgot to include a line of code that replaces Anonymous with the user ID... easy to do, easy to fix. They'll get it.

Anonymous: But where exactly is the olive branch coming from the left?

TC: There is no need for war metaphors in this discussion. There should also be no need for the left to offer anything to anyone before you, me, or anyone works on practical methods to reduce the abortion rate.

That said, compromises have already been made on both sides: The extreme left has to accept that 'any abortion, any time, for any reason' is not acceptable to most people. The extreme right has to accept that 'no abortions, ever, for any reason' is also not acceptable to most people.

Anon: You speak about "many, many ways to save babies without changing the laws" but I'm not sure what in the world you are referring to.

TC: I'm sure you can come up with more than a few ideas which will help to remove the economic, social, and physical factors which lead women to have abortions instead of carrying unwanted pregnancies to term. Women who are not pregnant do not get abortions: teach real sex-ed and ensure contraception is available and affordable to all. Women with enough resources are less likely to get abortions: provide a compassionate safety net for economic security. Women with daycare options can afford to work and get enough resources: ensure quality daycare is affordable to all. Women who get paid a decent wage... Women with access to rehab... women who have a place to go to get out of abusive situations... (Notice I did not say the government needs to do all of this. Maybe some of those dollars we could save from the court battle could go to women's shelters and adoption agencies.)

As for the rest of your post: “Liberal Left Wing Hollywood Crowd,” “Right to Murder,” list of abortion procedures, “show semblance of humanity”... are you trying to have a discussion, or pick a fight? Be careful, such hatred can become you. And as to your 16 week canard, we all know that once you got 16 weeks into law, you'd change your posts to read '12 weeks,' then 10, then 5...

(PP)

Well, Arminius, I never proceeded from any presumptions that our humble forum here was being staffed and maintained by anyone overpaid. Gods know what piece of hardware this thing is running on. :)

Arminius here -

Paganplace,

The WaPo/Newsweek crew is applying band-aids. Take it from an old computer programmer, they did not look at the problem properly before starting to code the solution. Typical. Reminds me of Congress.

(PP)

Anyway, cut the techs some slack. You're trying to fix a *religion,* imagine how the interns feel. :)

(from PP, meaning Paganplace unless ProudPagan comes back) :)

On the logins,
Eh, Arminius, they're trying. I think I have a notion where they went wrong, but I'm no computer expert. Something like this happens *every* time they try and fix the spammer problem, they drop something in place and it immediately gets Fubar in actual use. :)

This is Arminius.

WaPo/Newsweek has screwed it up again. Lovely. Everyone's anonymous. Ain't it grand? Did Congress have something to do with this? The Shrub, maybe? St Sarah's idea?

Anyway, Paganplace, it ain't Stockholm syndrome, I'm sticking to Christianity. But I will not forget my Pagan friends - not even you, Oh Most Difficult and Exhausting Friend!

Arminius

(From Paganplace)

"My religion needs healing, and lessons are here for the taking, from both Pagans and atheists."

Well, maybe that's one of those quare things about a Pagan heart: a lot of people want to call us 'Enemies of the Faith,' but actually, few of us wish your religions ill. Most of us have people we love who live there, as much as we just couldn't stay.

Maybe it's a touch of Stockholm Syndrome, (If I ask why McCain claims to be immune, why should I presume?) ...but may as well try and turn it to the good.

If there's one thing I know, Arminius, it's that the good stuff, you just can't suppress, not with all the book-burners or Inquisitors in the world, so why would I ever try?

Make it good. And remember us. :)

Hello, All,

Is it not a strange and curious thing that I, a Christian, feel so much at home here in a Pagan blog? Something to do with tolerance, inclusiveness, and compassion?

Is it not also a curious thing that I also feel at home on Susan Jacoby's blog, run by an atheist? Something to to with tolerance, acceptance, and understanding? She told me herself that she values my inclusion - she's one of the few panelists who interact with her blog. I wish Starhawk would do that.

But is it not the strangest thing that on the so-called Christian blogs I get routinely beat to a bloody stump?

Too much of Christianity has forgotten the core message of Jesus.

We're all God's children, can't you see?
It's not us and them, it's WE and WE.

My religion needs healing, and lessons are here for the taking, from both Pagans and atheists.

Anyway, I'm glad to be here. Thanks.

Arminius

(From Paganplace. I may have just re-signed in. We'll see. :) )

"Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

"And all that is needed are Wiccan spells!!! When can we expect the Wiccan spells that will temporarily eliminate the sex drive,"

Why would we want to do this thing you're obsessed with, CCNL? Are you conflicted about your sex drive?

Frankly, if you can't manage *that,* you got no business 'doing spells' in the first place.

It's not that hard. If your own your sex drive instead of thinking it's a demonic thing imposed from outside somehow. It's part of you. Neither slave to be whipped nor master to be obeyed.

You just breathe. You may then do as you will among this world. This is a life-force, not a battle.

Poor soul.

"pay off mortgages and delete the warmongering, violent and anti-female passages in the koran ??????????"

A mortgage is a contract. One should not expect magic bullets to remove them. As for 'deleting passages,' well.

Again, you 'struggle' with these things as though they are 'things' that must be 'destroyed,' ....and they *aren't* even yours. Unlike your sex drive.

We do not put these things between ourselves and other people. If *they* insist on greeting us with these things, we refuse to speak to anyone less than the human.

You mock us over 'spells,' CCNL, but it's *you* who are seeking the wrong kind of power, and letting this desire bind up your whole life.

From Concerned the Christian Now Liberated-

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

And all that is needed are Wiccan spells!!! When can we expect the Wiccan spells that will temporarily eliminate the sex drive, pay off mortgages and delete the warmongering, violent and anti-female passages in the koran ??????????

test

Starhawk: "As a society, we obsess about the life of the unborn while failing miserably to protect and cherish the lives of the born."

We are a single species on a rotating sphere that isn't getting any larger, whose resources have real physical limits. The decision to bring another homo sapiens into this plane of existence is also the decision to bring a certain amount of waste and pain into the world, along with all the love and joy that a newborn child can bring.

Ultimately, there is the 'state' of the person. The 'territory' of the body is not so much a 'thing' as a 'being', more verb than noun, a process of living AND dying. If human rights mean anything, it means that a person's individual 'state' has rights that transcend government's demands.

I'm a guy, and a guy really cannot [ultimately] know what's really going on with the concerns, health considerations and choices that a woman must go through when she becomes pregnant. Abortion is a horrible experience that no one really wants. The goal would be that abortions would be rare. Towards that end, sex education is essential. We cannot allow the censoring of this necessary knowledge in the name of someone else's moral code. Abstinence based sex education has proven to be a failure. It's time to get real.

*this time it's Paganplace testing, from a fresh window.* I approve of this logging in idea, (Thanks, site-owners) ...But I'm thinking it's not working right, yet.

(It's Paganplace again. The board still says I'm signed in, but just in case whatever went wrong is still wrong)

" Arminius:

Somewhat off topic, but if my friends the Pagans do not know this yet, they should. A few years back, St Sarah the Moose Slayer received a 'blessing' to protect her from witchcraft. This election gets more frightening by the day."

In a sense, it relates, cause it's the same mentality: in fact this one of her preachers was incited actual witch-hunts over in Kenya, ...and Palin believes in 'spiritual warfare,' unfortunately in a pretty literal sense, against us. She's all wrapped up in Dominionist causes who want to actually *overthrow* the American government, in favor of a theocracy that'd stone queer people in the streets and probably burn 'witches,' too. And 'heretics,' (that'd be any Christian they don't like)

What young Proudpagan relates does happen too much as it is: what a lot of people seem to forget is how quickly civility and ..civilization as we know it, can go away if people embrace that kind of fear and aggression. I'm a bit older, and I remember a lot of racial violence and ethnic tension that it seems others have forgotten.

It seems a lot of people who want to roll back progress have forgotten, too. Folks like Concerned Christian will try and tell us we should fear Muslims instead of standing up for our American freedoms against what he apparently finds to be a more 'acceptable' radicalism, ... but you can't fight terror with fear, you can't fight tyranny by signing away your rights, and you can't fight polarization by taking sides someone else drew up.

We won't defeat, or even keep away, terrorism, by embracing fanatics, ourselves. As much as some would like to get stoked up for a 'war,' this is not really going to be solved by spoiling for a showdown of 'armies.' It's about police work, and it's about the promise of America herself, that people of all faiths can stand together for our individual liberties and common good.

Yes, some people will attempt to use this against us, radicals both Christian and Muslim. This is the price of freedom. We have to exercise and protect our liberties.

It's also tragically-likely there will be a lot of war in the world, in coming times. Too many of the pieces are in place, about population, resources... energy, water, food... It does not, however, have to be a religious firestorm.

It doesn't have to engulf the world in apocalyptic panic.

If there's *one* thing America can still be, though, is a beacon of hope that people *can* get along, and by so doing, prosper.

I reflect that they're coming out with an American version of 'Life On Mars,' ...someone from the present transported back to the world I was born to.

And the worst thing about all the Religious Right-inspired extremism and polarization here in America is really all of the things we *could* have been doing, and did not. I'm afraid that's gonna cost... Is costing, as the dry gas pumps all over town attest. (Speaking of the Seventies.)

Ask a 'Witch,' ...we know all too well that when times get hard, a certain number of people would rather blame *us* than have a real hard look at who led them to this, and by what means.

Yeah, it's scary.

This financial crisis comes just as my dear one and I were looking to give up on some future plans and book it for a blue state. (This was not a time when I'd have chosen to come here in the first place, but we had no choice.) Hopefully we won't, after living simply to *not* rely on credit and debt, end up punished for the doings of the big money.

So when you've got people trying to elect completely-unsuitable candidates just on an absolutist position on abortion, despite the to-me-obvious consequences for our kids, I have to wonder why it is we're even *talking* about this 'issue.' Again.

No one's *making* anyone have an abortion, but if you don't like em, (Personally, I don't, ) Well, people losing their homes, jobs, social supports, and in fact, *hope* to provide a good future for kids they already may *have...* certainly isn't helping encourage people to embrace further parenthood.

With the pro-life crowd come people (Like Palin) who would like to tell me I should have sex with some man, not use contraception, and *still* be considered by them an 'unfit parent' for not being straight and Christian. It's nonsense.

But in actual fact, these people would sooner *close* their adoption services than either turn down state funding or potentially have to admit gay couples are human beings.

An absolutist ruling on 'Abortion,' or voting for people whose only apparent 'qualification' is wanting such a ruling to be imposed... won't help any of these things.

test

(That last one was *me,* starting with 'Isn't it funny' I *seem* to be logged in, but it's coming up anonymous, anyway)

-Paganplace

Isn't it funny how they bring up the abortion issue *again* when McCain's campaign really starts to tank?

Finally saw Palin give an interview, on CBS. No wonder they've been keeping her out of sight in that manner: again, she's shown she has no idea what she's talking about and can only try and find the nearest related talking point, and McCain... Well, McCain's weaseled out of the debate, hasn't he?

Guess rehashing this is all they've got, really, what with having gone on record supporting policies that are failing so spectacularly.

It's an utter shame what some are trying to do to this country. It's definitely time to wake up.

Still insisting we can't *feed* all American children, but that we can throw a couple trillion at foreign wars and corporate bailouts to reward them for taking peoples' life savings and foreclosing on their houses.

It's kind of a good point Starhawk raises: not only do people disagree on 'when human life begins,' in a spiritual sense, but *why even assume it's the same in all cases?*

Where does *that human experience* begin? Where does it become a *unique* human experience?

If we're going to talk about spirituality, then, OK... Set aside the dogma: whose reporting the experience, anyway? Mothers, invariably.

On the sad occasion of counseling would-be mothers after a stillbirth or miscarriage, certainly, it doesn't much help to dwell on a life that never happened, but we'll often point out that maybe that soul had a need for that experience, however brief... People love to say 'What if this or that famous figure had been aborted,' ...I'd just say, 'Hey, they'd probably have been someone else.'

The religious belief that this is some kind of *mechanistic* process is certainly one that I don't think everyone shares. Certainly not one a government can comfortably make a theological ruling about.

Certainly, if people want to sell a religious belief about it, let them speak religiously, but don't mix it up with government or individual freedoms. ...Especially cause over-ruling Roe V. Wade would have far-reaching implications for civil liberties ...among them the right to privacy itself, (remember, that's what the ruling is based on, that our Constitution allows us to be secure in our persons and property, but it does establish a right to privacy, and is precedent for a whole lot of other cases that depend on it) ...and also, we know that outlawing choice would *certainly* result in manifold social ills.

Thor's Child,

I completely agree, as I suspect most would, that money can be spent on far better things than the protracted legal battle over abortion.

But where exactly is the olive branch coming from the left?

You speak about "many, many ways to save babies without changing the laws" but I'm not sure what in the world you are referring to. Without laws to spare the life of children, the liberal Left Wing Hollywood crowd has given us the following:

Suction Aspiration Abortion at 8 Weeks
Dilation and Cutterage Abortion at 12-14 Weeks
Salt Poisoning at 16 Weeks
Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion at 6 Months
and Partial Birth Abortion at 30 Weeks.

Maybe the legal battles and continual fighting will diminish when the "Right to Murder" crowd shows a semblance of humanity and outlaws abortions that are taking place at 16 weeks and later.

Then, you throw out "health care for all children" without adding the disclaimer that Democrats are simply using that as a pretext to enforce national healthcare.

Terra and Arminius

You two deserve to admire each other. After all these years. you are two wise and compassionate souls. (you too, Thor person).

Let me underline the point that non-dogmatic responsibility teaching societies like Holland and Germany have MUCH lower abortion rates than the Good Old US of A, and much lower STD rates too.

If one is NOT a complete-abstinence-dogmatist, aren't those the kinds of outcomes that are to be desired.

Henry James, who as far as is known was abstinent all his life, except perhaps with Oliver Wendell Holmes.

change test

Greetings all!

Why is it that reading the Pagan threads tends to make me more comfortable, and reading the "righteous" ones makes me feel hated?

At any rate, thanks to Starhawk and the rest of you for giving me more perspectives to chew on. The part about a variable time span for 'life' to begin (even before conception?) is something I'll need to ponder awhile.

Relationships with others take on more meaning and more responsibility the longer they continue. It seems to me that the question of whether to have an abortion is related to the relationship (and the responsibilities) between the woman and the fetus/child growing within her. At first there isn't one, since one does not communicate with a few cells. As the child/fetus grows, the relationship gets stronger and so does the responsibility of the mother. Near the due date, it is clear that the mother should be responsible ar the child to full term. In short, Roe v.Wade fits pretty well with my views.

Unfortunately, there is a second issue. The 'abortion debate' is not really about abortion, its about power. It is about power on both sides, the rabid pro-life types trying to force their version morality on our legal system, and the rabid pro-choice crowd seemingly equally determined to push us into describing a child/fetus as medical waste, and unfortunately, giving the appearance of being pro-abortion. Those of us in the middle need to resist the polarization. The center must speak up for the sake of our country.

I read Susan Jacoby's thread, and I'm saddened that she believes no conversation can be had between 'abortion is murder' types and the rest of us. We must find a way to have a conversation with the ends. My experience says that it is better to not engage in the 'when does life begin' inflammatory Q and A sessions that the pro-lifers like to bait one into. They know that script by heart, and will use it to take the discussion right out of reason and directly into emotional ground where all respect for other viewpoints dies.

My question to those of you like Ken who are in the 'fetus is a human' camp is this: Since we know that there are many many ways to reduce the abortion rate and 'save babies' that do not involve changing the laws, why won't you engage with the rest of us and make those things happen? Why do you keep spending your money on legal fights that only force the rest of us to spend money on the legal fight? The money on both sides should would be more effectively spent 'saving babies' in practical, effective ways: funding shelters, parenting classes, real sex-ed classes, health care for all children.... Do you really think that forcing both sides to waste money on legal fees is the most effective way to prevent abortions?

Here's a story.
"MARY GOVE NICHOLS (1810 – 1884) Appeared in print before 1861
"Having suffered from chronic ill health and four miscarriages as a young woman, Mary Gove Nichols became an early advocate of women's healthcare, spreading her message through her writings, lectures, and clinics. Married to Hiram Gove, an unsuccessful businessman who expected both financial support and unquestioning obedience from his wife, she supported him and their surviving child by selling needlework until they moved to Lynn, Massachusetts, where she ran a girls' school and began her career in health reform."
http://www.librarycompany.org/women/portraits/nichols_mary.htm

Another story of a brave lady is found in Bausman's History of Beaver County. Mary Davis Dungan was the wife of Levi Dungan and was a woman well qualified to be a help-mate for him in this wilderness life. Two instances may be given of her courage and capability. In 1789 she made the long journey form her western home to Philadelphia on horseback with a few neighbors taking with her money to enter the tract of land which had been blazed out by her husband in 1772. She made the journey to the east and back in safety and brought with her the patience for the land, dated September 1, 1789. Before her marriage Mrs. Dungan had lived in the home of the celebrated physician (signer of the Declaration of Independence) Dr. Benjamin Rush, to whom she was related and with whom she studied medicine until he went to Edinburg to finish his training. At his departure, the library which they had jointly accumulated became by mutual agreement her property. After her marriage to Levi Dungan, she took a part of this library with her to the wilderness home and continued her medical studies. At one time from Indian attacks these precious books had to be hid away for nearly a year at the Mineral Springs and were nearly ruined as a consequence of dampness and mildew that it brought her to tears. But the medical knowledge thus acquired by this brave little woman was often drawn upon for the relief of her own family and her neighbors. The following incident of exigent need and prompt assistance from her skill is related. Two neighbors William Langfitt and Isaac Wiseman had been down to the mill on King's Creek to get some corn ground. On their way home they were attacked by the Indians. Wiseman was instantly killed and Langfitt was shot several times through the body but kept his seat while his frightened horse carried him over the trail to the Dungans where he was taken in unconscious. There was no surgeon obtainable nearer than Fort Pitt and Mrs. Dungan at once set about to care for the wounded man. With a knitting needle she packed the bleeding wounds with strips torn from a silk handkerchief and with compress and bandage arrested the hemorrhage. Langfitt recovered and lived to the age of 96. Levi Dungan died in 1825 and his wife is believed to have died earlier.
http://www.bchistory.org/beavercounty/beavercountytopical/Women/BCPioneerWomenMSWin77/PioneerWomenMSWin77.html

When I have the time I still go to the same mineral springs where those books were hid away and drink from the mineral springs and fill up a jug to go. It's a real heavy water. In Feb. 2000 I was in Philadelphia. I'm standing there looking at the Liberty Bell and a couple of women are standing near me. I have no idea who they were, but the one woman was telling the other a story about Mary Dungan. It was an interesting day and then the rest of the trip got more interesting. It's a long story and there are more details I won't go into. The details are almost unbelievable. They're on hard copy. The Liberty Bell was moved a few years later to a new location.

Different Location, The Same Important Things
"As James Madison reminded us long ago, "the advancement and diffusion of knowledge" is "the only Guardian of true liberty.""
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/publicinfo/speeches/sp_07-04-03.html

The diffusion is important so we have our hard copy, our paper, water and ink. Some people don't see the value of that.
Demo
Another simpler way to demonstrate diffusion is to drop a drop of ink by dropper into a glass of water. One can see the ink spreads slowly from the initial region where the ink first encountered the water surface, to everywhere in the glass. This is because the dye molecules in the ink diffuses from the high concentration region to other lower concentration regions.

Life all comes down to law and what's on paper and ink and what does it mean. Until there's a birth certificate and all the other paperwork is legal, rights are not secure. I have the paper with my little inky baby foot prints on it. I didn't even have a name, just ink on my little baby feet on this piece paper. I still have the paper from the hospital. I guess it could be all digital today. It's just not the same thing. I think I'll go out to the mineral springs soon and get some of that water. No paper and ink, no rights and it goes wrong from there. We keep it going right and they just want a fight.

Bless you Starhawk. Bless you Rhonda. I'll never understand why the same group of people so fiercely protective of the unborn are the same group of people that, by and large, a) fight so hard to uphold the death penalty -- either all life is sacred or none is, right? b) condemns women who raise children by themselves as "welfare queens" who deserve what they get, and c) refuse to put programs in place to allow for prenatal care for women who cannot for whatever reason, afford it themselves. It's as though for them, the importance of life is only in focus until they're sure abortion won't happen. But they ignore prenatal needs, health/diet for the mother and social safety nets after the child is born, preferring to retreat to their corner and scoff.

What is there to fear? Witches frolicking around a maypole singing "do no harm". Hey, that works for me!!! Sounds like something the young Jesus would do.

Now Islamics on the other hand have some significant issues with following the violent dictates of the koran!!!!

There is nothing potential about the life, humanity, or individuality of the aborted fetus. It is in every meaningful sense of the word a genetically distinct, living human being. That is a fact of biological science, not a theological formulation.

"Kids beaten, raped, neglected, abandoned"

You forgot to mention "aborted," a fate no better than any you enumerated. Killing them quickly seems to be a poor moral alternative than intervening later.

The convolutions and distortions people go through to give a patina of compassion to the deliberate killing of defenseless humans should give pause to any thinking, caring human.

I agree Arminius. This is getting scarier by the minute.

I'm a young Pagan so I wasn't around when the real protests were happening, or when people were being killed, crosses burned in their lawns and their children taken away because of their religion. But in living in small towns and being Pagan (Openly or not), I have been beaten, protested against, thrown out of school and other atrocities all in the name of a religion I don't believe in and a misunderstanding of what I Believe in. In the last 7 or 8 years, having moved to a larger city I've been able to be openly Pagan, meet wonderful Christians like yourself, who have become great friends and prosper. I've been happy and healthy and finally in a position to deal with the horrible things that have happened to me both for being pagan and because some people are just jerks.

Palin and McCain... They make me fear, for my future, for my liberties and honestly for my life .

Somewhat off topic, but if my friends the Pagans do not know this yet, they should. A few years back, St Sarah the Moose Slayer received a 'blessing' to protect her from witchcraft. This election gets more frightening by the day.

Famous Adopted Persons

Andy Berlin - entrepreneur: chairman of Berlin Cameron & Partners
Anthony Williams - politician
Aristotle - philosopher
Art Linkletter - comedian
Bo Diddley - musician, performer
Buffy Sainte-Marie - musician, actress
Carl-Theodor Dreyer - Danish film director
Charlotte Anne Lopez - Miss Teen USA
Christina Crawford - author
Clarissa Pinkola Estes - author
Crazy Horse - Lakota war chief
Dan O'Brien - decathlete
Daunte Culpepper - football player
Dave Thomas - entrepreneur: founder of Wendy's
Debbie Harry - singer
D.M.C. - hip hop artist
Edgar Allan Poe - poet, writer
Edward Albee - playwright
Eleanor Roosevelt - First Lady
Eric Dickerson - athlete
Faith Daniels - news anchor
Faith Hill - country singer
Freddie Bartholomew - actor
George Washington Carver - inventor
Greg Louganis - athlete
James MacArthur - actor
James Michener - author
Jean Jacques Rousseau - philosopher
Jesse Jackson - minister
Jesus - adopted by Joseph the carpenter (Bible)
Jett Williams - country singer and author
Jim Palmer - athlete
John J. Audubon - naturalist
John Hancock - politician
John Lennon - musician
Langston Hughes - poet and writer
Larry Ellison - entrepreneur: chief executive of Oracle
Lee Majors - actor
Leo Tolstoy - writer
Les Brown - motivational speaker
Lynnette Cole - Miss USA 2000
Malcolm X - civil rights leader
Mark Acre - athlete
Matthew Laborteaux - actor
Melissa Gilbert - actress
Michael Reagan - author, talk show host
Moses - Biblical leader
Nancy Reagan - First Lady
Nat King Cole - singer
Nelson Mandela - politician
Patrick Labyorteaux - actor
Peter and Kitty Carruthers - figure skaters
President Gerald Ford - politician
President William Clinton - politician
Priscilla Presley - actress
Ray Liotta - actor
Reno - performance artist, comedian
Sarah McLachlan - singer
Scott Hamilton - figure skater
Sen. Paull H. Shin - politician
Sen. Robert Byrd - politician
Steve Jobs - entrepreneur: co-founder of Apple computer
Surya Bonaly - figure skater
Tim Green - football player/commentator
Tim McGraw - country singer
Tom Monaghan - entrepreneur
Tommy Davidson - comedian
Victoria Rowell - actress
Wilson Riles - educator

There are situations where abortion is the most responsible choice, and in the best interest of all concerned, including the potential person in the womb. Only the pregnant woman knows all the details of her particular situation. She should not be put in the position of having to defend her decision to governmental agencies or busy-bodies with picket signs who want to appoint themselves the judges of whether or not her reasons are valid.

I have a dear friend who has a biological daughter with a genetic disorder that will likely kill her by her early twenties. He adopted another child with the same condition, along with fetal alcohol syndrome. I admire him for doing so, and he is an excellent parent to these children. I also see the toll it takes on him - he is unable to hold a job - because the nature of the children's disease, he is frequently called to their school to deal with emergency situations. One year, his daughter's health was so precarious that he had to pull her out of school and home school her the rest of the year. Not everyone has what it takes to be able to deal with such things day in and day out. As much as I love them, after a few hours of babysitting them, I'm worn out. I don't know how he does it, and especially how he does it as a single parent - soon after their divorce, his ex seemed to lose interest in visitation.
I know that I would not be able to raise these children. I thank the gods that there are people like him who can and do, but I also worry and fear for those children like his who have parents that can't deal and the kids suffer for it.

All life is sacred.
It is only by honouring and supporting the life that is already here, that we create the fertile soil to plant the seed of the new generation.
If the parent plant is healthy and cared for properly the seed has the opportunity to reach its potential as a healthy powerful being.
Lets care for the life that is (rather than worry about the life that could be)so that strength and vitality, love and support encourage loved and wanted children.

Arminius,
Many Blessings..

Well...its all in the faith I guess. Its that Mother thing..Moms do not play favorites...and Moms love you no matter what. Wicca is a practical religion...it is a faith of poetry and prose, but it is centered on earth and it's turning seasons, on being human and humane. We can play...dance, sing and dream...but it all comes down to honoring Life and Will, with Reverence and Mirth.

Back when I was 18 I was married to a soldier...we had a baby girl, she lived 3 weeks and died of Spinal Meningitis. I still grieve her loss and all the possibility that she held...but I also know that she fulfilled her time here, and how I was taught by her. It gives you prespective.

Priver,
After my baby died, I went to work in a home for mentally handicapped children. Oh I was just helping out in feeding them and batheing...stuff like that. But I learned so much about myself. I know what you are saying about some kids deserve better then what they got...some parents are completely lost with handling those special kids.Those kids were often only here a short time and that time hard.

We need to care more about the children we have here then to worry about eggs and how many angels dance of the head of a pin.

MMA everyone!

This was a great article by Starhawk.

Slightly off topic, but I need to get this out. As someone who works with developmentally delayed/ disabled infants and toddlers and their families, often as the result of premature births, I've seen firsthand the devastating effects of people having children who clearly never should have.

It's so easy for people who have not been around these populations to say that doctors can rescue children born prematurely and then everything will be OK. Problem is, the lifelong effects can truly be absolutely devastating. Personally, financially, emotionally. Kids beaten, raped, neglected, abandoned. Under age three. You name it, I've seen it all.

My question is always the same. Who is willing to care for these children? Some of them require years of developmental therapies, surgeries, medical equipment.. and programs like mine across the country are bleeding funding. It breaks my heart to see what these kids go through. And many of those have family members who WANT to do the right thing, but can't because of their financial situation.

To say nothing of the whole lot of families out there who don't or cannot care for themselves, never mind having no business having children.

Or families who don't want to deal with the fact that their kid is autistic or otherwise impaired, who prefer to check out of their lives cause they can't be an adult and step up. It happens more often than you think.

It's often been said that the highest ideal one should strive for is to 'love thy neighbor as thyself'.. but I can't help but think that we already do. We just don't love ourselves enough to really care for ourselves.. making caring for others damn near impossible.

When does it stop?

We need boots on the ground, working with families. A lot more. Then we can talk about the whole abortion issue.

Hi, Terra,

Good post, well done. Why is it that most Pagans on these blogs are so gifted with good sense and compassion? I am impressed.

Arminius

To be Wiccan means that we follow a path, a path that leads us in ways that we do not understand at the time, to a place where we are supposed to be. I remember a time before Roe v. Wade, a time when women went to back rooms, to dirty hands and dirty tools, and laid on dirty tables bleeding. This is a path that this country went through...we should not go through it again. That should have been a path we learned from.

Abortion is up 14%, during the Clinton administration it went down 34%. The Clinton era was a time when there were programs that aided women in having their children and taking care of them. Bush came into office and those programs were stripped of funds..they were too expensive. Abortions have gone up.

So it is not the case of being against abortion for those on the right...if it was those programs would have been kept and improved. It is the morality of it. Of women having sex and having to pay for their "sin".

Obama wants to end the need for abortion...he wants to ensure that every child is wanted and loved...and he wants to do that by creating a world of peace and prosperity...with healthcare and education. Where we teach our children facts and teach them to respect themselves and to use responcibility in their actions.

Making abortion illegal will only send women again to the back rooms... to bleeding on the streets and to women unable because of botched abortions to have children. Legislateing morality only creates a world that is gray with fear and hideing.

We must go forward into the future...our constitution was meant to be a living and growing foundation of a growing nation. We must look forward and that meant to have a Supreme Court that knows we are in the 21st century, not the 18th. Palin and McCain scares me..Palin is ignorant and small minded and McCain is more ambitious for the title President then for the responcibility to the people. They are dangerous.

terra