An Economy of Interconnection

And, yeah. I've been a poet. But I'll hand the torc to a better one today. Song I was singing bout eight years ago:

"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
Thats how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
Thats how it goes
Everybody knows

And everybody knows that its now or never
Everybody knows that its me or you
And everybody knows that you live forever
If you've done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin cotton
For your ribbons and bows
And everybody knows

And everybody knows that the plague is coming
Everybody knows that its moving fast
Everybody knows that the naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose
What everybody knows

And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's come apart
Take one last look at this sacred heart
Before it blows
Everybody knows

Everybody knows,
Everybody knows
That's how it goes....
And everybody knows"

-Leonard Cohen

" VICTORIA:

"I guess it is my familiarity in the Pagan community that made me feel comfrotable commenting on it."

I think your 'familiarity' is of the sort that 'breeds contempt,' ...understandable in that, frankly, not everyone out there's spiritual needs are being met by 'the community.'

We've been growing geometrically by the *year* for a couple of decades, now, and this *does* mean we're way understaffed on experienced clergy, particularly those not burned-out.

Gods know there's a lot of people out there who pick up a trade paperback and start calling themselves 'Lord Or Lady *name a way-too-big Name to take on' and immediately start trying to defend the title by blustering around. :)

That's not their failing, or the Old Gods', ...if anyone's, it's someone like mine's.

"Unlike Christianity, which i rejected for specific reasons, and at a definite time- I never actually distanced myself from Pagan philosophy, nor found any great fault with it. Whatever you think of it, there just aren't enough of me ir Starhawk or anyone with sufficient clue to 'police' certain expectations.

Nor, frankly, is that really our job. But too many people who *want* help have to reinvent the Wheel just cause our clergy are always overstretched. Helps keep us honest, but also makes people kinda vulnerable to the exploiters, well-intentioned or not. When I started out, we didn't even have the Net. We'd be lucky to get *hold* of 'fluff' to debate over and try and sort through physical libraries to fact-check.

"The connection I cut in my psyche towards christinaity- I never did with wicca."

I'm getting that. But as we bind, so are we bound. You cannot both cut and not-cut that cord, if that means you want to claim to be Wiccan and speak of it in Islam's terms.

From how you speak, I just don't think you ever really understood the Wicca you didn't quite find what you were looking for in.

You fault Wicca for not being what you see in Islam. You speak as though 'Wicca' resents you leaving, ...while in fact saying that pretty much no one did. (And if I don't miss my guess, there's one in every crowd, who'd question whether you're selling your soul for the wrong reasons. I know, cause I might be that person, if someone had previously pushed responsibility off on me)

Did you *tie* a knotted cord that you don't want to let go of, even as you claim you've 'found something stronger?' Are we actually to you the 'all-forgiving mama' that you know will have you back, supposedly? Is that's why it's so important we 'stand for nothing?'

So you can have your sour-grapes dismissal and find a sense of safety in another way?

Mother will *always* have you back, Victoria.

Wicca or Wiccans or Rainbow Pagans are not the gatekeeper, there.

"But still, I understand that it is not appropriate to go into another's house, and complain."

Come as a guest, then. You were always welcome. And always free to go.

As any of our Muslim or Christian or Jewish or other friends always were.

"I made the mistake of feeling like it was still my house- but since I am the one who moved- I forget that- and slip into former modes."

Could be that those 'former modes' never really applied in the first place. Gods know there's a certain number of folks who'll say, 'You can't herd cats, we are cats, herd us!'

That was never the point, though.

Trust me, on this, Victoria, few in the worlds would more like someone to 'just tell me what to do.'

We live in a world that's very conflicted about authority and autonomy.

And a lot of people are very willing to make it easy to just submit, even if they style it to be 'might.' Even if they can't actually drive.

And that's the real trick of it.

Without freedom, nothing was ever yours to give in the first place.

A good little poetic image about it is, maybe you take comfort in hijab. I dress modestly in this world the monotheists built, and relish the company of those who don't think covering myself is the only proof against 'shameful lust.' ..and that if they behave dishonorably, it's my fault for not living in a tent.

You're never unwelcome, Victoria.

But we're not the shadow of your book.

We're people you maybe could have met.

"I was in a rotten mood today, I gave away my 3 kittens- am fasting, and actually ill too-
And I'm sorry I took it out on you."

Understood, btw. Sorry about being parted from those kittens, which I gather was involuntary.

"I wouldn''t say you betrayed your path- or your goddess- but I did make unkind remarks about inconsistencies that were out of line- so - accept my paology if you are inclined, and if not- well peace and blessed be"

I'll accept it as intended. Certainly, though, the 'inconsistencies' you cited exist between your own false presumptions and the reality of Pagan communities, not internal to them.

As I said early on, particularly in terms of Wicca, this is process, not product. No one converts and is handed a rule-book for all of life. It's not always going to appear authoritative. But authority isn't where our morality *comes* from. Authorities, people can just claim to speak for and twist to whatever end they like, anyway.

In terms of bullying, well, all too often people claim, 'You don't stand for anything, and if you say you do, I'll call you an 'intolerant fundamentalist' for not accepting my mischaracterizations of you, ...I'll call you 'Intolerant' for refusing to accept my intolerance of you.'

Such folks are often a little shocked when the 'hippies' come down like a rhetorical bag of hammers... I've even experienced the great shock and indignance of a would-be basher who found himself in a facedown with me and actually whined, 'I thought you were supposed to be pacifists!'

All I said at the time was, 'You thought wrong,' but being peaceful doesn't mean 'roll over and submit on command.'

So, yeah, accusing us of 'betraying' your own presumptions of what you don't understand in the first place is 'supposed to be,' ....Irksome.

Honor is actually darn important to us... *because* we don't base our lives around some set of absolute rules to interpret and sort of spiritually-litigate about through a text.

A lot of people have this notion that 'honor' is some macho idea of social competition and authority, too, ...they conflate the idea with 'pridefulness about dominance' but that's not it, either.

You may have heard the ideal of 'Perfect Love And Perfect Trust?' (that's what the ritual space is intended to be about, regardless of intellectual disagreements, not something one expects the entire world to hold to. Though there's a 'spirit' there, the exercise of which which can be a healing dynamic in community. Kind of the opposite of what CCNL preaches, really, 'I trust no one till they submit to whatever authority I claim to represent.' )

Neither is honor some concept secondary to 'obedience to a book,' ...it's in fact a vital thread of community, within and without.

Dishonor *isn't* a 'sin' you can justify or have absolved just by more submission. It's serious business. Breaking your word *costs.* Betraying an oath costs *nearly everything.*

For 'Moral Free Agents,' it's very much the bond which holds us to community... it's not a secondary and indirect virtue, it's one of the 'pillars,' to roughly translate.

You asked, (as if it were a disqualifying factor) what a Pagan criminal justice system would be like. I did answer below. Namely, that we have no real interest in changing the American system... only if it were a Pagan society, the emphasis *would* likely be on honor, (both recognizing the loss of it and seeking to provide a means for the sincere to restore it, ) recompense, restitution, and, in more extreme circumstances, 'binding the offender against causing further harm.'

Not necessarily so different from a liberal democracy, really, just not pursued with the notion that the law's primary purpose is to 'frighten, judge and punish' as so many monotheists learn to emulate.

But Pagans aren't looking to take over. We do want an equal voice in our own government, as promised by our nation's social contract. We certainly aren't looking for a Pagan theocracy, any more than we want a Christian or Muslim one. We know this doesn't work.

Any more than it works to blame some lack of 'Public morality' for a credit-based economy *designed* around the notion that only the greediest should truly have a free hand. Authoritarian conservatives may extol the virtues of small business, and 'Main Street' but in fact shape things so that only Wal Mart and credit cards and predatory lending and big trade deficits are how people can get by.

They claim 'Fight the terrorists by continuing to consume,' ..here, take this 'stimulus' and spend it, don't pay off your debts.' They say, 'Here, borrow to buy a home so the greedy can take a bunch of your money, then take the home back.'

Then when this screws a lot of people, and they've looted our economy for the very wealthiest at the expense of our infrastructure, they say, 'Look, your own wickedness brought this about. Get hard-line about controlling sex and blame yourselves while we take all the money we couldn't afford to help the people with to support the looters we let hold your lives hostage.'

My dear one and I don't live by credit, ...we've made those 'sacrifices.' What will sweetie's savings be worth? Can we ever have a home? All this is up in the air, now.

It's one thing I've learned in my travels: this competitive, credit-based economy *wastes* a lot of talent and human effort. They may want more babies, or else, but they don't *know what to do with em.* They're still operating off rulebooks where populations of the religiously-privileged were needed to replace losses from endless combat without leaving no one back home to bring in the crops.

Except there's no one to bring in the crops, anyway, should agribusiness fail to make the numbers work out.

For a city girl, I could do OK, if the body were up to it, which it isn't. I have a lot of skills, but I mostly sit in a chair all day cause I wasn't profitable enough to take care of twenty years ago, for some insurance company now begging for bailout *again,* and that just would have been too 'Socialist' for 'God-given free-market' worshippers.

Where does this go to Pagan ideas of honor? Well, there comes a point where courage and principle and spiritual fortitude simply run out of body. *If we don't stick together,* ...if we don't cooperate. *If we don't stop seeing each other as 'competition' as if we were actually just little versions of the corporate overlords that seek to divide us up into little discrete nuclear family units separated by picket fences....

People still insist on seeing everyone else as first and foremost *defined* by these models. As being somehow collectively-responsible for controlling each other individually, then extolling the virtues of the 'winners' Or even the 'solitary heroes.'

Well, my days of playing Batgirl came to a pretty unceremonious end, one day, ironically enough in full sight of some people praying around a radio, ...Rush Limbaugh was moralizing or something, while something was filling the sky with smoke behind them. Mid-heroic dash, that was it. It was like the gearbox just blew, only it was my body. It was shortly after 9/11, which day I was already pretty frayed at the start of to begin with.

We talk about honor. Piety. 'Righteousness.' But what inna ten thousand names of the Holy Mother of Punk *is* that when someone the lot of you scorn is the only one *reacting* to what's going down right in the neighborhood?

Then trying to say there's no goodness out there in the big scary world.

I've seen some of the worst. Absolutists just say 'Bad.'

They don't see the good. Not like *I've* seen.

All these 'moral' people clustered around a media device telling them how much better they are than anyone for it.

Seen it a thousand times. They lament some sense of 'moral decay' when they won't even look what they're doing, or what's done or not done in their names... and stare like sheep while someone else they can call 'inferior' defuses yet another mess for them.

Now the same people are telling the same people to vote for more of the same, and just blame the people they didn't listen to in the first place for what *the Bible-beaters did.*

This is not the America that the flag-waving Bible-beaters claim to extol.

What *is* that?

I do think that some of us have learned a few things that could be of use to our countrymen in the broader society, though. Including so many things that are just wonderful about America that we fear too many of our neighbors are being frightened into turning into something much worse.

So. Honor. Don't try and tell me about honor, while claiming people can't *have* it, except indirectly.

Honor, among other things, is our *birthright.* Not a thing ceded by an authority that supposedly created us in shame and blindness and degradation, but a *birthright.* And it's not about wealth or power or proxies for Divine kings... Or even about what a queer girl who couldn't shake an excessive sense of responsibility for 'saving the world' says or did.

It's about us as humans. Not whether or how or why we bow to anything. Not whether we stand or submit or beg or fight, but, *what it is, the human who does these things.*

I see you've written more. Will address in a sec.

Hope the broadside didn't cause excessive grief. I love kittens, too.

Peace and blessed be.

I guess it is my familiarity in the Pagan community that made me feel comfrotable commenting on it.

Unlike Christianity, which i rejected for specific reasons, and at a definite time- I never actually distanced myself from Pagan philosophy, nor found any great fault with it.

The connection I cut in my psyche towards christinaity- I never did with wicca.

But still, I understand that it is not appropriate to go into another's house, and complain.

I made the mistake of feeling like it was still my house- but since I am the one who moved- I forget that- and slip into former modes.

Well, I know we often seem to have some difficulty communicating, Victoria. It's certainly pretty annoying when it seems monotheists allow anyone to speak for what Paganism is about except Pagans ourselves. You did certainly come off claiming on one hand that we're too uncohesive to listen to, while claiming we were saying other than we were saying, then when disputing your assessment as a Muslim, calling me a 'bully' and a 'Fundamentalist.' for refusing to be trivialized in that manner.

To answer your question, no, I'm not a 'traditionalist' in the way you seem to be implying, nor a solitary, certainly not by inclination on the latter. It's actually one of my big frustrations in life that I've never been able to stay in one place long enough to stay with the various communities I've known.

Which, I'll admit, can make me a bit testy around the holidays, but it does have the advantage that I've gotten to know a whole lot of different communities in my travels, and this is largely wherefrom I derive my assessments of the common elements. How we get together, those of us of varying opinions, and have everything work. Those who sort of sit on the sidelines tend to see only the debates on the Net and such.

I wouldn't really call myself 'eclectic,' either, rather more of a polyglot: it's like speaking a bunch of different languages rather than taking a bit of this a bit of that and all, and mixing it up, as the term so often implies.

On patron Deities, well, it was an unfair question, (I was just trying to make the point about presumptions of expertise) since it's *not* my custom to name Them in places like this, ...it's my way to be sure I don't end up proselytizing... cause I do speak stridently, among other things)

(The Morrigan's not a bad guess, actually, but, well, that'd be a heck of a thing to claim. :) )

Anyway, I guess it's a pretty tense month out here in the world, anyway. I don't know how the big mess in the world will affect my own hopes and fragile ambitions; it certainly tends to lead me to be a little cheesed off about so many people *still* rather not listening.

Even as things come right down to the self-righteous actually driving things into the ground in an end-of-term looting of the public for the corporations, to the tune of what could be a trillion dollars. I personally feel pretty darn useless, right now, trying to work around disabilities and prejudice and and a diminished civil rights situation, under threats still worse from the same people doing the looting.

And the real possibility that all these people who have been taught to hate us and embrace utter unreason might well be looking for scapegoats all the more often. Yeah, I get angry.

All this stuff meant to divide our communities when we need to be embracing our diversity and putting some good stuff together... we might not be able to afford it very soon. Never could.

Especially we can't afford the notion that another go round of 'If Everyone Believes in My God, Everything'll Be Great.'

A) Ain't gonna happen.
B) Even if it did, it'd take longer than we have, and
C) Never works, anyway.

We've got to be Americans about this, not go further down the hole of trying to dismantle our liberties for a little self-righteousness and false sense of security... or false promises about 'Trickle-Down' economics.

Pganplace- I didn;t have you pegged for a specific Goddess- actually, more of a solitary devotee of The Goddess.

I was in a rotten mood today, I gave away my 3 kittens- am fasting, and actually ill too-
And I'm sorry I took it out on you.
I wouldn''t say you betrayed your path- or your goddess- but I did make unkind remarks about inconsistencies that were out of line- so - accept my paology if you are inclined, and if not- well peace and blessed be

You know, a Morrigan warrioress type would seem obvious- but you are not an obvious kind of girl.

So Cerridwen came to mind- although I don't tune in much to intuitive flashes anymore as I OD'ed on it- She is dark and powerful, but poetic and wise.
I don't know if your a poetess but you certainly do talk alot.
Even more than I do, and that is alot.

You're a traditionalist PP-
I don't know what goddess you revere- actually, I asked you a few times in the past, but you ignored me so I figured you didn't want to reveal yourself and respected that.
For some reason Cerridwen comes to my mind- but I have no logical reason to think so.

I didn't know that you were specific about the (capitalized, see?)Lady's aspect-

You tell me! How am I supposed to know?

And I was EXTREMELY eclectic type- and no doubt would have annoyed you had you met me way back when as much as I seem to now. You know, a typical fish-

Ok, you're turn- you guess me now.

No? Meanwhile, back in the world of what a Pagan was trying to say before we had to rehash the right to be Pagan in America about it:

"

Is the economy a moral issue? The heart of Pagan morality is the understanding that we are all interconnected, all part of an interwoven web of life. The suffering of others affects each one of us. The destruction of nature undermines the well being of all. So yes, the economy is a profoundly moral issue.

The current economic melt down is the clear result of a failed economic philosophy. From Reagan to the neo-Cons, we've had three decades of policies that favor the rich over the poor (with some partial relief under Clinton). Free business from constraints, we were told, do away with pesky regulations, let corporations roam the globe in search of the cheapest labor and most lax regulations, turn every area of government into a profit-making opportunity for the canny, and we will create so much wealth that everyone will benefit.

"It's a happy philosophy, requiring no sacrifice from anyone of means and influence, only from the poor and the voiceless. Problem is, it doesn't work. It has never worked for the less privileged, and ordinary people around the globe have been feeling the pinch and the bite for years. "

From Starhawk... Err, as in the topic of this column.

Anyone interested in the economics? So happens you learn a thing or two when the folks who control credit think you're a 'Witch.'

"I give up."

Stalwart of you. Of course, we spent the better part of a year here with CCNL accusing us all of being secretly Muslim terrorists and defending Victoria all along.

Shall we all give up?

"Try explaining gently and clearly, and do it again if necessary."

Oh, this has been done a hundred times over, complete with often dropping the subject, even when she claims to be 'offended' when her insistences about others are disputed.

She wants to claim to be an 'Ex-Wiccan' and call me a betrayer, though, she'd better pony up something better than 'You don't tolerate my intolerance, waaaaa!'

So, let's see. If she knows all about us, she should be able to tell us exactly who and how I've betrayed what I believe in.

Still waiting...

Maybe then we can talk about the economic models Starhawk raised and she dismissed as having something to do with naive hippie things she 'knows all about.'

(Yes, Arminius, she doesn't communicate well. this doesn't mean she gets to defame and claim a communication disability. Sorry.)

I give up.

Frankly, it's CCNL and Victoria that have something in common, both mocking us as callow and superstitious, but, actually, if CCNL had seen past mocking us over 'spells' for a couple of years now, well, he might have invested in his community :)

Paganplace,

I never meant to imply that Victoria was not at fault. I have had the same problem with her - and with you. As you have had with me. Try explaining gently and clearly, and do it again if necessary. Then step out of it, because by that time a time out is necessary unless one simply gets off on anger.

I mean, hey, Arminius, we're dealing with *real expertise* here. She doesn't even have to *read what we say* to tell us how full of it we are.

Let's hear how the mistress tells us how I betray all this stuff not good enough for her.

Piece of cake, right?

So, Arminius, if she wants to claim she's the expert 'ex-Wiccan,' let her try and name the Gods she's accused me of betraying. To a Pagan, it shouldn't be hard.

"What I'm saying - trying to say - is that when you get pissed, you don't communicate too well. Neither do I. Neither does Victoria"

Actually, if I have to characterize Victoria, she refuses to realize when she's offending people, or just plain being wrong, blithely not-getting it, and then thinking it's coming out of nowhere when she finally offends someone.

(from the bomb shelter, beer in hand....)

Paganplace,

What I'm saying - trying to say - is that when you get pissed, you don't communicate too well. Neither do I. Neither does Victoria. I have had web battles with the both of you, and survived and learned how to communicate. I see this very clearly - right now the two of you are just making each other madder and madder, and nothing is getting across in either direction but anger. If all you want to do is get mad and feel better, then have at it - I have done that too. But it is not pretty from a bystander's standpoint.

But, yeah, Arminius, remember how I mentioned there is a time to express anger?

This is one of those.

I mean, seriously... 'Bossy?' Somehow I don't recall being the one who figures the Western sky has a pressing need for a money-shot of my hindquarters.

She wants to say I'm 'betraying my philosophy,' though, after demonstrating total misconstrual what that philosophy *is,* welll, she can pony up with an explication of exactly what her submissive self deigns to say I've been betraying all these years.

At no small personal discomfort, I might add.

SO I'm waiting for her to tell me all about what she thinks I been betraying all these years, degenerate Pagan that I am, don't even know what Kabah to kowtow to.

Speak it, 'Witch'

No, Arminius, it's not overheated if a Muslim convert claims some authority about a religion she doesn't get and calls me a betrayer.

She ain't seen the heat.

I offered her a simple opportunity to take her extensive reading comprehension and tell me all about the Deities she accuses me of betraying.

Keep a head on something for me.

I have not yet begun to be 'bossy' and 'uncohesive.' :)

Paganplace,

Chill out. Yer gettin' overheated here, and being way too defensive.

Arminius (heading for the bomb shelter, six pack in hand...)

I mean, hey, Victoria, since you know my own religion so much better than I, in all its uncohesive bossiness, you must surely be able to manage so simple a task as naming a few of my patron Deities, that you're so willing to accuse me of betraying.

Let's hear it.

Btw, on this:

"You are not holding fast to your own philosophy,"

Really. Tell me my philosophy, since you've demonstrated *such* sensitivit and understanding so far.

You wanna be a 'Witch,' or figure you're even better than... Hazard a guess who my patron Gods you imagine I must be so betraying are.

I won't confirm or deny, since it's not my way, but... I'd like to see your guesses.

Pony up.

"and are ill equipped to advise or instruct anyone else on what they practice."

Oh, Gods help me, I'm only clergy, ...whereas you know all the deepest secrets of hippie Wicca and of course, have special permission to break any oaths involved when there was no compulsion or threat to take them in the first place.

Speak your equipment, if you don't think you've demonstrated enough what you don't know of English comprehension, never mind *my* religion, oh, great one.

Is that too bossy?

Or would it be 'uncohesive' to not have come schooled you earlier?

And, no, Victoria, CCNL don't get to burn you as a 'witch' without he goes through someone like me.

We Wiccans are funny like that.

Not everyone gets that.

Doesn't matter, that, come down to swinging hurt, as it too-often does. Cause someone can't sort out their language.

Kind of American, that way. Try not to backbite too much.

But here, we see:

"I know you're bossy type of paganism, telling others what it means or if they understand or don't"

Ah... when we're not 'callow Rainbow Pagans' with 'no cohesion,' we're *bossy,* and this means, of course, it's Ultimately Right And Just ....To say modern Pagans are something to do with Meccans of old who have more in common with Bedouins than the European polytheists we are... as depicted by someone who just happened to want total control at the time...

So, which is it, Victoria? Are we 'overbearing' when someone tries to say we have no morals and they're for or against this, ....then to be told we don't have a clue about local economies in the modern age, since we must be as callow and drug-stupored as some hippies that say, 'Yeah, anything is Pagan, it's like, Jesus.... Or something. What's a Goddess? Toke up. It could be, like, a dude, man. We're all with that crystal stuff. Blast it out of the ground in Peru, just don't say where it came from. Don't harsh my buzz, dude...."

Seriously. Yes, Victoria, if you insist this is all we are, then go submit to your authority or toke up. Don't try and play us up one side and down the other, when we're trying to *actually get people through this mess.*

Dig?

"I'll talk to whom I choose, about what I want, to whomever I decide."

Yes, were you Pagan, this would be your choice.

It would not, however, necessarily make it accurate, nor on topic.

As my grandmother used to say PP-,"Who is "she", the cat?"
You display an inordinate disprespect in your communications, blaming the inprecise manner- instead of just saying- whoops, my bad.

You have a possessiveness towards your path that borders on manic.
Get over it, Sister- you don't get to define what others know or are or have been.

I haven't made any attmepts to define Wicca- nor is it likely that I will. (Unless in the context of a mutually repsectful and adult conversation)

I'll talk to whom I choose, about what I want, to whomever I decide.

I cannot imagine that what you are putting our right now, is coming back in any positive fashion.

I know you're bossy type of paganism, telling others what it means or if they understand or don't.

You're like the fundamentalist christian exclaiming who is or isn't up to their own standards of christianity.

You are not holding fast to your own philosophy, and are ill equipped to advise or instruct anyone else on what they practice.

But I've known this all along- and you are not giving the craft a very good name right now.

See, I don't care what others believe- as long as they are faithful and sincerely trying to get it right.
I respect the effort.
But it has to be demonstrated to be respected.

I don't pacify what I consider bad manners.

"I NEVER SAID IT WAS AN ARABIC WORD-
READ! Before you knee jerk an emotional repsonse."

It wasn't the 'kneejerk emotional response' you characterized it as, Victoria. I told you I had a notion what you were trying to get at, but that you were speaking without a precision in a way that implied things were backwards.

As you always do when you get defensive about us speaking for ourselves as though it were attacking *you.*

This is what I'm talking about where you demonstrate less than no understanding of Wicca.

This is basic, basic stuff that you treat like a hall of funhouse mirrors.

She's not a Witch, CCNL. She doesn't get it. Never did, and besides, she's sworn to something else, now.

It's not my custom to run around calling myself a Witch outside company that knows what it means, precisely because of the very translation difficulties this seems to generate among people of diverse customs and languages and translations.

Like in western Hemisphere Spanish, where English says 'Witch,' there are a number of words. Bruja, Curandera. etc. You don't say you're a 'witch' in those neighborhoods, cause that means a malevolent bruja.

As for the Native ancestry you claim when convenient, CCNL, it's not considered seemly to call yourself *anything.*

'I see things. Do things. I help out. Ask around or see for yourself.'

The superstition you so embrace by 'scorning' this mask you made, CCNL, is called by Christians 'Witchcraft.'

They call a lot of things 'Witchcraft.'

But I guarantee you Victoria ain't any of em.

You got a problem, (and no one else can help) And if you can find me... Then maybe you can persecute... A Witch.

*cue theme.* Fanboy. ;)

"A Wiccan Witch and a Muslim Witch going at in a "prose" war!! Priceless!!!"

She's not a Witch, CCNL, or even a witch, small W. Not that it ever makes any difference to your lot.

It's a little to pat for public debate, but as an elder I respect said, 'If you're not now, you never were.'

So, you wanna burn someone, you come to me. Leave her alone. Dig?

A Wiccan Witch and a Muslim Witch going at in a "prose" war!! Priceless!!! Too bad JJ messed up the site so bad that reading said commentaries is no longer possible.

PP- The word IN THE QUR'AN translated, which is in arabic- is translated into the english Qur'an,as pagan-
how can it be any clearer?

I NEVER SAID IT WAS AN ARABIC WORD-
READ! Before you knee jerk an emotional repsonse.

YES_ the tenfold law in christianity- do you know what that is? Have you even heard of it?
Here it is- whatever one gives- in whatever form- spirutal or material- if it is given FREELY FOR THE SAKE OF GIVING AND WITHOUT EXPECTATION OF ANY RECOMPENSE- comes back tenfold.

I still see the magic in this practice- but I credit a different source than you. But it is no less real, no less valid, and if it works for me, who are you to tell me I never understood it?

You don't get to be the pagan police!

My nickname as a small child was WIC. My relatives STILL call me that!
Are you telling me that my mother's Irish past, is unworthy of the craft??????
For mercy's sake, her familiar was named Grimaulkin!!!!

Are you going to tell me that your discovery of whatever craft you practice, as an adult, validates your practice and knowledge of a woman who was inducted BY HER MOTHER!!!

I don't have to put on a show- I don't have to compete for the "right" to elaborate on something I was raised with.

PUHLEEEZE! My path has been firmly my own since childhood- my open-minded tolerant mother saw to that. I could talk for an hour about my mom-

Sorry about your own bad experiences- but that has nothing to do with me. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF CHRISTIAN MONTHEISTS-

Do you get that?
How are YOU living up to the pagan ideals of tolerance and respect for others and live and let live?

We muslims have a similar idea- in the Qur'an it says, "We shall agree to disagree, you to your faith, and me to mine."
And, "There is NO COMPULSION in religion".

I SAID SIMILAR- not the same- and I will use language in any way I deem appropriate.
Worry about yourself- not what I know or do not know.

As for your going off half-cocked about the naive statement- which seems to be the only thing you can find any fault with-

I will not deconstruct nor criticize the tenets of other religions or paths here-
BUT_
I WILL criticze the reasoning processes of individuals.

I was criticizng YOUR reasoning process- YOU-not anyone else.

SO get off it.

And is said MY PATH- not my religion. so what does being muslin have to with anything.

And it is YOU and only YOU who are mischaracterizing me every step of the way.

You keep trying to force me into some pre-conceived little notion you have that all monotheists are evangleists who don't respect other peoples choices.

It's not me, it's not my religion- you are thinking of someone else.

You are a spiritual bully PP-

And you mistake my kindness for weakness.

All people have suffered, many have been abused. It is our repsonse to that abuse that marks our character- not the fact that it happened. and it can be our greatest teaching tool to learn about our own selves. our weaknesses and tendencies, and modify them towards positivity.

Having been abused does NOT give you the right to be abusive- your anger is your cross to bear-
or are you going to tell me what expression I may or may not use?

Do you really expect every conversation a person has with you has to be sensitive to your path?

Ae you extending that same empathy and sensitivity to others?

Or do you have the breadth and dimension to allow others to express themselves using their own familiar language?

Or do you angrily and offensively have expectations that all others should adjust their expressions to your tender sensitivities.

If you put put into the universe the same sensitivities towards others who are different that you feel entitled to- you would be remarkable.

But your own anger gets in the way of this.

Have suspicion for the good intentions in other people- give others the credit that their hearts, their actions, their perceptions can be as developed as you perceive your own to be.

The mirror you see reflecting negativity, and "bitterness" (who said bitterness? not me!)
and prejudice when you look at others may not be coming from others.

A basic universal spiritual truth is that we see in others what we ourselves are guilty of.

An interesting spiritual exercise is to watch people and replace every 'you' that they utter, and replace it with an 'I'.

One gets great insights into people's motives and makeup in doing so.

Clearly my efforts to find accordance, and the commonality we share as humans has not been received in the spirit with which it was given.
Not my loss.

You are going to have to accept that there are very different people out there- and we have as much right to express ourselves, and coalesce our various experiences into our own cohesive whole- and that those expressions will differ from yours- even if taken from the same criteria-

You'll notice that this is the first time I have ever made personal observations of you or your motives.

First time- depsite your repsonses for a long time that re-read, re-interpret, and mischaracterize mine for a looong time.

And I was extremely mild in that assessment.

If you did not consistently and persistently attack every opinion or view that I have- it would not be necessary. But you do. So it is apparently.

use the infintessimal restraint needed to bypass my posts if that is what is needed.
Or just ignore them.

Quit sniping at me and turning everything into a catfight.
I am not a housecat, I'm a barely domesticated feral streetcat.
I may act like a housecat in civil society- but if attacked enough- my claws will, eventually come out.
So, let's retract our claws, eh?

And on this, Victoria:

"Just as you balk perceptibly when your own path is vilified and mischaracterized by those who have anger and hatred-"

"I can certainly do the same."

You seem to be under the misapprehension that your reasons for being Muslim somehow make a Wicca you don't understand 'your path' to speak for, even when those on that path are saying very different things than you characterize us saying.

Somewhere along the line, you seem to have gotten the notion this is about you or your choices, or the people you seem to be claiming gave you such a negative impression of 'hippie Pagans' that you can't see anything else when it's trying to talk to you.

Perhaps you're trying to justify a choice you made, ...or didn't make. You know it's OK with us. It doesn't mean the 'stories you share' while claiming something we aren't saying here is both what we're saying and 'naive' ..apply to the discussion at hand.

I mean, I think you even managed to imply that Pagans would be all bitter about you converting to Islam while relating a tale how those 'naive' folks you knew for the most part *didn't.*

Not to contribute overmuch to the conflation of Wicca per se with Paganism in general, but from the Charge: "If you find it not within yourself, you will not find it without."

And if you call yourself a priestess, you'll probably have to find yourself saying that in sacred space. Lady help you if you don't take it to heart. This is part of the Walk, too.

If it's what someone really seems to need I will walk them directly to a Christian church or a Christian-heavy UU place and introduce em to the minister. (Usually by the time anything gets to me, the UU's the best place, especially when I *don't* know the local monotheist clergy. They don't generally smell blood in the water and lean on the sales pitch. You get a fair amount of, 'You guys are really cool, convert me,' and you kind of have to explain how it doesn't work that way. )

Merry part. Peace. There we go. S'all good.

But this isn't about you defending your decision, ...as far as I'm concerned, you don't have to. (even if a certain troll says it is and that you do.)

It's about who and how you characterize as having naive and callow ideas while claiming we're saying other than we're saying.

Oh, and sorry I missed indicating where I went from addressing Terra to addressing Victoria, ... I laid off posting for a bit of quiet observance of the Equinox and then hit 'post'. :)

Anyway, CCNL:

"A Good Fall Equinox to you and your gal witches!!! We are sure your spells will conquer any of the economic woes currently afoot."

Yeah, why read about what Starhawk says about sustainable local economies, when you can instead claim it's all about the 'spells' you're fixated on?

Hee, Terra, and a happy Equinox to all, by whatever name. :)

No, I've never met any of these 'Ex-Witch' people, though from what I've checked out of them,they're mostly taking advantage of mentally-ill folks who went looking to 'Witchcraft' for some attention (I've certainly met those types, generally they have no clue and don't want one, ) ...and then find they can instead get attention from corroborating the 'Satanic Panic' stories and the like. There's money in it, unfortunately, ..new forms of the modern 'Witch Hunt.'

Whatever, yaknow? Sad, mostly.

And, I've explained it to you several times, now. The 'Concept' you called naive, if you will, was one you *claimed* was being advocated by certain Pagans here, and *wasn't.*

As for this, I think I see what you're trying to get at, but:

"also, the word pagan- as everyone here is well aware- is an english word- (to my understanding it means of the countryside)
and is a translation of an arabic word- and perhaps not the best word to use- "

Well, the word itself is *not* a translation of an Arabic word, ...It's a Latin word which predates Islam by a long shot, and is *used* as if it were a translation for the Muslim stories about how awful the pagan folks were supposed to have been about a mere overturning of their social order by Muhammad and his followers.

This doesn't mean you can act like those characters in the Koran were the same religion as modern Pagans. (And it's one good reason to capitalize the name when referring to a group of actual real-life people, like everyone else with a proper name.) Any more than it defines the word 'Witch' just because Christian missionaries used the Saxon-derived word 'witch' to describe 'What the Bible says shall not be suffered to live' and apply to what various tribes in Africa would call 'malicious practitioners.'

What we have here, is often 'A Failure to communicate,' you see. Just like you seem to have walked away thinking, to paraphrase what you said, 'You're all about rules, Wicca has a threefold law just as Christianity had a tenfold law.' ...this doesn't demonstrate any understanding of Wicca.

The point was, you kept arguing at what we weren't saying, based on some view of us that you based on 'hippies,' saying 'Oh, I know all about you people, uncharitably, of course. I can't be bothered to read what you're *saying* cause the Koran and Rainbow gathering define what you're saying more than what you're *saying.*'

People do, quite often, explore 'Wicca' and associate it with what they were taught *others* say about it... Some will say they have 'years of experience' when they've really had the same couple months' of experience over and over in relative isolation. Heck, some kids will play at *vampires* and call that Wicca, (often they're the ones who end up on talk shows, to much facepalming) or in fact, tell people who've been practicing a long time that they're 'fluffbunnies' when they tell such newbies that they can't strap on a pent and become privy to all this fictional 'occult darkness' their previous church told them we were 'really' all about.

This doesn't mean they actually get to define the movement, in fact, they're quite often in a way trying to *redefine* it to include some stuff that just doesn't really fit.

Gods know how many times I've run into folks in some kind of 'magical distress' cause they kind of want the coolness of the 'witchy' image, (Mercifully, the faddishness seems to be somewhat on the wane) ...but still want to retain the narrative that the Devil and angels are fighting over their soul, (which is certainly a notion that appeals to certain vanity, even if it's a miserable way for them to cope with mental health issues, and what can be said, there, one does the best one can for them, ) ...these types are very vulnerable, in turn, to the 'Ex-Wiccan Ministries' types, who 'reward' them for claiming to be experts on something they never understood in the first place, cause all they were ever seeing was their own symptoms in the first place.

These types are also pretty vulnerable to various 'occult scams' ...these usually are whatever pishposh makes some self-appointed 'Magus' feel important and get laid. They may appropriate any number of things, including a bit of pop Wicca and ceremonial magic, even Harry Potter, recently, (and it's usually a pretty incoherent mishmash, ...they stay the heck away from most of the community cause they can be seen right through.) The media and churches, of course, are often all too anxious to say, 'See how dangerous Wicca is,' when it's really the *scare tactics* that actually provide cover for exploiters, validate certain delusions, and make it all-too-easy to exploit for sordid purposes.

When I was younger-looking and prettier, I could run stings on these types. All too easy to pose as a doe-eyed seeker and let them flatter themselves. The typical pattern is that someone is impressed by some 'teacher' who flatters them enough to attach them, then, invariably, the 'student' finds themself under ever-intensifying 'psychic attack,' and Big Drama begins (That's usually when I'd start to hear about it, since I always had a rep for being the gal to go to when things start getting really messed-up.)

It's like the 'prayer warfare' types, embroiling themselves into what's to them a 'war with Satanic powers that are real, real, real,' and of course, generate their very own hornet's nest to gloriously wade around in, using 'exorcism' (aka torture) to imprint people who are mentally-ill with the notion their symptoms actually are devils set on them by 'witchcraft' (Old con, that, but one that still works all too well if someone's having a hard enough time as it is)

When people get to the 'Ex-Wiccan ministries' point, it's usually because they just aren't getting the validation for how they frame their internal struggles that they hoped for, and there's usually someone out there all too willing to recruit them for their own aggrandizement.

On a less-dramatic scale, those who never really got involved with community cause they 'weren't joiners' or are working out issues with authority they brought with them, are often the ones who eventually decide, 'There's nothing to join here, I'm going to go where they tell me what to do.'

On the one hand, that's OK... On the other, they generally criticize the 'Wicca' they were trying to redefine to solely-personal preference as too fractious compared to more 'cohesive' authoritarian systems... when they were the ones who isolated themselves in the first place.

Not everyone 'gets' it, and that's OK. We certainly don't have copyright on the Gods. But what we Pagans are as a faith group does have a meaning and at least as consistent a set of community moral standards as any of the 'mainstream' religions. Often much more so.

Certainly, if you're going to dismiss the Threefold Law as 'Triple Your Money Back' or 'Like the Christians have a Tenfold Law,' ...then you don't understand it, and never did.

No one said you had to, but it doesn't mean you can expect your assessment to apply to those who live it.

We Pagans *do* seem to love to argue about definitions, make no mistake. People are really pretty free to figure things out on their own, but too often folks therefore want to define the community before they really ever get involved: and when it gets to the point where someone's seeing their assumptions rather than what we're actually saying, it certainly doesn't make the economic discussions go any smoother.

To repeat, Victoria, whatever ideas you called 'Naive' weren't what was being said here. So what you think your qualifications are on that aren't even relevant. If you want a book to tell you who 'Pagans' are, ...well, that's your choice. But we're not characters out of your religious book, either.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

No matter how many commentaries you write, no matter how much you hog the blogs, Islam is still a violent, warmongering, anti-female religion as noted clearly in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel.

Some excerpts:

p. 47:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p. 347:
"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

Sorry for hogging the blog folks- I just wanted to make something clear.

I've been on these boards since their inception- it is my first blogging experience. 2 years this November.

I was initially quite shocked at the open bigotry and vehemence expressed, and set some rules for myself which I think I've honored.

One is, I allow people to define themsleves, and use resources from the same.
Jewish links to substantiate jewish observations- christian for christian etc-

One cannot make a point about one's experience with african americans and use a link to David Duke to validate it e.g.

Another is, not critiquing faiths and beliefs other than my own- deconstructing from a doctrinal POV etc-

I have very substantial reasons for my own exit from christianity for example- but to elaborate on them would be like attacking those who believe it now- and it is just rude and bad manners-

Even though I have practiced different systems, and immersed myself sincerely in their practice when I did- since I do not currently practice- I leave that to people to do for themselves.

I hope that it is regarded as respect, because it deeply is- and my respect and desire to truly do no harm, even verbal- overhwelms my personal ego-driven desire to be right.

I hope this brings some light to my way of communicating.
peace and thanks for tolerating my long posts here. :)

I usuallt re-read my posts to make sure they are sensible, as i write in a stream of consciousness style and I want to make sure my thoughts have continuity.

I need to clarify that the enemies of the Prophet(pbuh) were not HIS avowed enemies- they were self-proclaimed towards him.
The agression was not on his part.

also, the word pagan- as everyone here is well aware- is an english word- (to my understanding it means of the countryside)
and is a translation of an arabic word- and perhaps not the best word to use- Mecca, the city of the birth of the Prophet(pbuh) was also the central stomping grounds for various tribal worships from all over the disunified arabic peninsula.
It was where the temple that containd the 360 gods and goddesses were located and a thriving business center.
The people of the town, were very worried about the drawing off of worshippers who followed Muhammad(pbuh), even offering him the position of first chieftan and mountains of wealth if he would lay off his message.

So, the 'pagans' or Meccans- were worried about their livelihood- and their aggression against the Prophet(pbuh) was a political motivation.

A particular people in a particular time.
These are the people who are referred to , and translated as pagans in the Qur'an.
I figured these historical bits may not be well known- so that's why I'm sharing.

So, again- specific local people- distinct events and times- as opposed to all pagans everywhere-

Terra-
There are many similar concepts in islam and various pagan philosophies.
Respect of the earth, and the autonomy of the beliefs of people are 2 of them off the top of my head. There is no complusion in rleigion. period.

And no corresponding "do not suffer a witch to live" as there is in the bible.

The Qur'an is not written in a linear chronological order- from my own observations- it seems to be chronicled from longest to shortest sura- or chapter.
Also, there are 2 very different elements of it-
Some suras are written describing specific historical events pertaining to particular known people and events- and are relevant only to the specified material revealed-

The other suras are written in a universally applicable context- and are pertinent for all time and peoples.

An idiot, or an evil hearted,lying,control freak who gets off on manipulating others weaknesses and fears, could and do use passages from the historical context, and abuse it's meaning to an illiterate or fearful population to stoke the fires of hatred-

Like Osama Bin Laden for example.
So there are passages in the Qur'an, referring to pagans that were contemporaneous with the Prophet(pbuh)- and waged war and tried to kill him several times- and were avowed enemies who sook his death and the ruin of the community.

There are literally hundreds of counter-balancing passages to promote peace, and justice, and tolerance- but, just like people can misunderstand any fragment of a sentence- if it suits their agenda- this probably happened with the girl you know.

If your friend is living in a repressive political regime- and it is in a muslim dominant land- it is not the doctrine of the religion that is opposite- it isn't.
Do not confuse political oppression using religion as an excuse for it's abuses- for the religion's tenets itself.

Islam calls for a decided upon (elected) shura, or council of mutually agreed upon repsected elders to govern.

Sound familiar?

Muslims themselves are just as vocal in their denunciation of oppression.

People seem to confuse islam with christianity- thinking it is an extension of it.

There are a great many differences, and it is not based upon christianity, nor judaism at all.

PP- I did NOT refer to the law of three as anything- but called it the law of return.
The misunderstanding is not on my part.
I notice Terra also used that term.

I called it the law of return Sept 20th 2:41PM
I called it the law of return Spet. 19th 2:35AM

I have no idea where you are getting this from. I don't even call it the law of three-

I did not 'cite' tarot- nor 'refer to' rainbow people- as any proof of anything-
I simply shared some personal stories that I thought were fun-

Yes, I "presume" to speak- because my experience is my own, and as valid as anyones.
basically- I don't have to prove myself to anyone.

Since you are the one who continues to assert that I don't "get it"- the onus is on you to paste what I said- instead of mischaracterizing my words, and then saying they prove I don't "get it".

And I didn't call anyone "naive".
I said a concept was naive- that an economic philosophy based upon the assertion that we trust people to be responsible is naive.

I haven't really written anything about my experiences as a wiccan for you to "assess".
Nor do you need to assess anything.

I have an aversion to absolutes, and fundamentalitys from any sector.

Your projections about islam are based upon your knowledge of christianity, and how it's adherents have abused it to hurt you.

islam is not christianity, nor judaism, nor monotheistically practiced hinduism-

Just as you balk perceptibly when your own path is vilified and mischaracterized by those who have anger and hatred-

I can certainly do the same.
peace all-

Terra, Terra, Terra,

"Burning" what, where, how?? I have no idea what you are texting about.

A Good Fall Equinox to you and your gal witches!!! We are sure your spells will conquer any of the economic woes currently afoot.

Paganplace..
Have you ever been to exWitch Ministry? I joined a long time ago, to see what it was. I read something about it in Witchvox...they through me out. lol. The head of it and her cohorts were wanna be's that scared themselves with their own fear and The Craft. lol.
It seems we are fluff or devil worshiping blood suckers...ladies of the night or old crones..
Any way something reminded me of the x whoopie witches.

How have ya been? Oh and a very blessed and happy Harvest Home! to all the Pagans and friends here.

terra

Arminus,
Here is something I thought you would like...LOL.

The Computercist
By Ian Wolff

Although rare, computer possessions have lately been recorded at an
increasingly alarming rate. However, to date, the most celebrated case
of (documented) computer possession took place on the evening of June
23rd, 1997, in the small upscale town of Menlo Park, CA. For the sake
of the victim and his family he is referred to in the following case
file simply as 'Tad.'

(Case #27-198TAD Monday, Oct 23rd, 1997... 6:42pm)

"I'm so glad you're here," said the beleaguered looking middle aged
woman as she ushered the two gentlemen callers into her living room and
bade them sit, "I'll just be a moment," she continued, hastening into
the kitchen and returning with three steaming mugs of freshly brewed
coffee.

"Tell me what you can, Miss Snyder, I'd like to get started as soon as
possible." Said Jacob, the more elderly of the two gentlemen.

"It all started last night," she began, "Tad, that's my son's name,
Tad. Tad had been locked away in his room for the past three weeks, I
thought he was just studying hard since his finals were coming up and
all, so I left him alone. Until last night, that is, that's when I
entered his room and..." she began to tremble, tears rolled down her
cheeks and she dropped her coffee mug to the floor with a crash.

Karrass, the younger of the two gentlemen, leapt to her aid. "There,
there," he said, holding her tight and patting her on the back,
"everything will be all right

Jacob arose from the couch and taking the large black suitcase in hand,
caught Karrass's gaze and motioned him towards the stairs. "It's time,"
he whispered, "come along now."

They climbed the stairs quickly and Karrass reached for the boy's
bedroom door. "Stop!" hissed Jacob, "there are a few things we have to
get straight first. Number one, you'll have to keep IT busy while I
install a surge protector."

"A surge protector?"

"Yes, trust me. If the power goes, so goes the boy. It happened to me
once before and I'm still paying for it. Not the child, the computer.
"Do you know how much a fully loaded Compaq Impresario costs!" Her
father kept screaming in my face. Meanwhile his daughter's soul had
just been sucked into cyberhell. It was very sad, not to mention
expensive."

"Gotcha, I'll keep it busy while you install the surge protector.
Anything else?"

"Yes, whatever you do, don't listen to it. It will try and make you
angry. It will lie, twist your words, show you unflattering pictures of
your loved ones on its monitor and tell you that your mother's in it's
nudie files. Do NOT believe IT! Well, unless of course..."

"NO," shrieked Karrass, "she couldn't be!"

"Fine then, are you ready?" Karrass nodded in the affirmative and the
two men entered the room. It was worse than Jacob had expected and
nearly more than Karrass could take in.

The boy lay prostrate upon the bed, a 56k modem was attached to the left
side of his abdominal region, while several wires leading from multiple
outlets looked to have installed themselves throughout every orifice the
boy owned. It seemed to Karrass as if the boy and the computer had
become one. The room stank of burnt wires and singed pubic hair. The
walls were awash with downloaded girlie pictures and more pornography,
thought Jacob, than a Larry Flynt archive. "I wonder what type of
finals he was preparing for," whispered Karrass.

Suddenly the monitor sprang to life and the hiss of the speakers filled
the room. "Nice day for a computercism," came the deep croaking voice,
"we've been expecting you."

Karrass pulled a chair next to the bed and sat down, he took the
keyboard and placing it on his lap, typed "who are you?"

"You have mail!" Blasted the speakers, followed by a wicked giggle.
"Never mind who I am," it continued, "I'm not giving up the boy and
that's all you need to know, Karrass. That is your name isn't it? And
stop typing, I can hear you just fine, I'm wired to the little pinhead's
eardrums."

"What should we call you?" Asked Jacob, while covertly slipping the
surge protector from the suitcase. "If I tell you," came the voice and
this time from the boy's own lips, "I'll have to kill you. But if you
must know, It's Mort."

"MORT?" Chimed the two men.

"Hey, you asked."

"Do you know why we are here, Mort?" Asked Jacob, while installing the
surge protector. "I know why you THINK you're here," it responded, "but
you're terribly mistaken, the NERD IS MINE!!" Came another blast from
the speakers, this time causing both men to cover their ears. Jacob
pulled a pair of wire cutters from the bag and snipped the speaker
wires. "Very sneaky," it said, now from the boy's mouth. "Hey Karrass,
look what your father's been up to."

Karrass gazed at the monitor, there, in full color, was his very own
father, dressed in a white teddy, a flowing pink negligee, and six-inch
spiked black heels.

"That's not my father!" Screamed Karrass.

"Karrass!" Shouted Jacob, "what did I tell you!" Karrass sat
motionless, unable to peel his gaze from the hideous picture. Jacob
pulled a shirt from the closet and draped it over the monitor.
"Karrass," he said, taking the man by the shoulders and shaking him
violently, "snap out of it."

Karrass gazed up at Jacob, his face drained of color, "did you see it,
Jacob?"

"Yes, it was horrible, but I warned you that might happen. Besides, it
could have been worse, it could have been MY father. Actually the
negligee seemed to fit quite well and as for the..."

"Stop," Karrass interrupted, while placing both hands to his stomach,
"no more, please."

Jacob brought Karrass a glass of water from the connecting bathroom and
delved into his bag, it was time to stop playing, he thought, and get
down to some serious work. He removed a small vile labeled 'Bill Gate's
saliva' and popped the cap. "Be gone from this child of the Internet!"
He shouted, while flicking some of the vile's contents across the boy's
body, the monitor, keyboard and modem.

"AHHHHH It burns, it burns!" Screamed the unholy and writhing
assemblage. "Your mothers on my hard-drive Jacob!" It shrieked,
spitting a stream of keyboard cleaning solution into Jacob's face.

Jacob continued, undaunted. "You will leave this nerd now! You will
return this computer geek now! By the almighty text of HTML, so be it
written, so be you confused by it, and all things computerized
accordingly shall confuse you...!"

"Stop!" Howled the beast, it's wires now sparking and sending a bluish
smoke into the air. "The monitor turned completely around on it's axis,
several floppy discs began flying about the room, one hitting Karrass
squarely in the crotch, causing him to drop to the floor in agony.

Jacob strove on, "Bill Gates compels you! Steve Wozniak compels you!
Steve Jobs compels you!" With each incantation he thrust another
sprinkling of saliva upon the beast. "Henry Ford compels you!"

"He made cars," moaned a still agonizing Karrass.

"Oh right, sorry, I've been meaning to delete that. Be gone from this
boy you demon!" It was working, the wires began detaching themselves
from the boy. "Jacob!" shouted an excited Karrass, "it's working! Read
from Genesis, Jacob. Genesis!"

Jacob flipped to the front of the book and began reading. "In the
beginning there was a garage, and Steve and Steve saw the garage, and
they liked it, saying 'this is a good garage. 'DAMN!" He suddenly
blurted, throwing the vile across the room. "What is it?" Asked
Karrass. "No more saliva," replied Jacob. "This happens every time he
continued, while feverishly digging through the suitcase, "that's the
trouble with billionaires, they can't produce enough saliva because they
have nothing to salivate for!"

Suddenly the boy sat up and thrust the mouse in Jacob's face, "click me,
click me, click me," it repeated in a hideous croak, "click me!" Jacob
pushed the mouse away and pulling a floppy disk from his bag, held it
before the boy's eyes. The boy immediately recoiled and began to
whimper, "please don't," it pleaded. "Not a virus, please. I'll be
good, I promise, I'll give you fifteen free hours and unlimited access
to Catholic Nymphos?"

Jacob handed the disc to Karrass and ordered him to load it. Then
turning back to the beast, he fixed it with a steely glare and with a
twinkle in his eye shouted "fax you and the mouse you clicked in on!"

The two men stepped back as the virus began spreading like poison
throughout the beast. Random pictures began flashing across the
monitor, Newt Gingrich, Keith Richards, Cool Whip, The official Vaseline
page.

"Oh there's a pretty picture," whispered Jacob, while Karrass clutched
at his already overtaxed stomach. Suddenly the room fell silent, the
monitor went black and a thick blue smoke began streaming from the boy's
ears. "It's over," said Jacob, wiping the sweat from his brow. Karrass
approached the bed and leaned over the boy, "Tad?" He whispered. The
boy's eyes opened, "who are you?" He asked, "and where's my mother?"

Meanwhile....

Little Kathy dashed through her front door and ran straight away into
her bedroom. Life in little Ackle, New Zealand, had always been rather
boring, she thought, that is until her parents had recently given in and
bought her a brand new computer. She booted up the system and watched
as the pretty colors and 'way cool' graphics danced before her eyes.
"You have Mail!" Hissed the speakers. "Wow, cool!" She squealed, while
leaning forward to read the name upon her screen. "How totally weird,"
she whispered, while clicking to open the file, "I don't know anyone
named Mort."

Terra, you delightfully said,
"My old Computer was bluffed into behaving if I threatened to throw it out the window..but this one is newer so harder to bluff. I threaten to kick its innards and it tends to fix itself. Other then that it will be a making for a colorful bonfire."

Friend, you would made one hell of a good computer programmer! Ya got the spirit! And don't forget to swear to a point where glass shatters!

Oh, yeah, a side story on that sort of thing. I have fond memories of coming up to co-workers whose computer had locked up, and were pleading for help. So, then, I did the obvious: make the sign of the cross to the miscreant machine, and utter - nay, chant - "In nomine Bill Gates, Microsoft, et Windows OpSys, amen". I would then turn to my bewildered co-worker and instruct them to reboot, all would be well. Worked every time.

Speaking of spirit - of another, better kind - I think I would greatly profit from PSG. Remember that I am spiritual in the main, and that I am intrigued by you Pagans. We have much in common. Also, I have no religious ax to grind.

Arminius

Arminius,
My old Computer was bluffed into behaving if I threatened to throw it out the window..but this one is newer so harder to bluff. I threaten to kick its innards and it tends to fix itself. Other then that it will be a making for a colorful bonfire.

As far as PSG...I think you have the spirit that would take in what was best for you. It all depends on what you want and expect. If you want a religious experience, you will have it..if it is community, that you will also have...if it is fun and games,lol you will find that. If it is to learn, you will most certainly have that. It is all up to you. My first time I was over whelmed with the feeling of being in a society that was mine. Language I understood, symbols that were second nature to me, dress and colors that I understood...a philosophy that I shared. I also think you would gain from it...

This year my young student came to PSG with her Pagan friendly boyfriend...he was all so macho..lol. By the next morning he was wearing a surrong. And loving it.

terra

Ah, let me guess, CCNL got to threatening to burn people in a deleted post? Real show of his superior Christianity, there.

And, Victoria, my assessment of you not understanding Wicca was certainly based on your citing doing Tarot readings, how you referenced Rainbow, (inappropriately, in terms of the kind of economics Starhawk and I were talking about, *you* were talking about hippie communes, we were talking about something based in local enterprise, it'd seem...

And also, the way you referred to the Threefold Law as though it were some set of 'Three Commandments...' Well, a lot of people call themselves 'Ex-Wiccans...' This doesn't mean they ever understood Wicca or Paganism.

What can you do. It's not like there *is* a doctrinal authority, but some things are a sure sign of 'not getting it,' :)

Certainly there's no hard feelings if someone explores and then decides to go do something else, but if you presume to speak as though you know the community, you've got to at least get the basics right to have any credibility.

And whatever you were calling us 'naive' for, well, wasn't speaking to what either of us were saying in the first place.

Victoria, I do not care what religion you are, that is no concern to me. You are walking your path, it is your's, I have my own path to walk and to learn from.

You must have needed to learn what Wicca had to teach then you moved on..I hope your stop with the Gods aided you.

I was not judgeing you. I am sorry if that is the impression I gave...I was just trying to correct what I read as missunderstandings of our way. There are many ways to be a Pagan...your friend the Druid is Pagan, not Wiccan.

I am a Coven Witch...I would practice differently then someone that was a solitary..that does not mean I am smarter then that solitary, just different.There are reasons I feel that Covening is better for me. Now I must admit if you were my Craft sister I would probably question you if becoming Muslim was what was right for you. Not because being Muslim is bad at all..but it sure is opposite from Wicca...in fact being Wiccan in Muslim land could well be a death sentance. I know because I use to teach someone on the net. She had to be so careful and if I did not hear from her for a few weeks I would be scared that she had been caught and hurt. So I finally told her I could not take it any more. So going from Wiccan to Muslim (to me)is a stretch. But if you are happy, that is all that matters.

Victoria...you seem to think that because anyone disagrees with your view of what it means to be Pagan that we are downing you or something...we just like to debate..to converse. Good Gods you ought to hear the High Priest and I, we can get into theaology and get really heated, and we respect each other enormously, he is my best friend and I love him and the way his mind works. It is no disrespect to disagree...I would not bother if I did not respect you.

So share or not..that is up to you, but I think we all lose if we do not learn from each other. That is what this forum is for.

Blessings,
terra

CCNL. "The correction beings!"
You mean revenge that is based on hatred, right?
Where do you get that "burning someone" is correction? It is called murder.
Gasoline is expensive. I was in advance auto today and a guy came in reeking of the smell of gasoline. Three people in the store comment on it including the store manager. I was so bad that the manager was ready to ask the gut to leave.
Ironically, one of the people in the store was someone that I know, haven’t seen him for a long time but it was nice to see him again. Jim said to me that gut smells like he has been rolling in gasoline, that’s when the manager said he was going to ask the guy to leave because he smelled so bad. The guy in the parking lot said his engine caught fire from a gas leak and that he poured water on it and it didn’t stop the fire, he was in a black truck, and I could recognize both of them. The guy in the truck was talking about burning his wife to death with gasoline. I told him that he would go to jail for murder and that I would be a witness to what he said. He also told me that he has hidden cameras in his house to spy on his wife with microphones and that he put a GPS system on her car so he could track her whereabouts. I told him that he will go to jail for doing these things and he laughed and said I won’t get caught. I said the very ones that think that they are above reproach are the ones that get caught. He said he didn’t care that he had people to do it for him and that they would lie for him.

The guy said “she has to pay for what she did to me.”

Victoria,

Christian then Wiccan then Muslim? What are you looking for? The three are so flawed with paranormal mumbo jumbo that one questions your thought processes.

Hi Terra, thanks for that insight on Obama's mother. I had linked info on Muhammad Yunus earlier who won the Nobel prize for his develpment of microloans in Bangladesh- he changed an entire society with it and I thought it might be interesting.

I recommend you read what I wrote about my own experiences, instead of going by what PP is interpreting it as.

I considered myself a practicing Wiccan for many years- one of my dearest friends is a druidic high priestess in my hometown still.
I don't get to see my old friends too often these days, as I've moved around the country a bit- and I missed the yearly gathering 2 eeeks ago- but I think about it-
My friend has a 2 big places in Amish country PA- and we've had a week long get together every year on Sept 6 for as long as I can remember.

Out of about 100 friends who come and go- only one person had issues when I became a muslim- but he was an angry pro-israeli guy who thought I became a terrorist, and everyone was quick to reassure me that it was his problem not mine.

My house was the central gathering place for many years, because I was the best cook.
Food has that unifying effect on people. :)

The tarot story- I was just giving an example of my life- not trying to define paganism or anything-

It has taken me a year to even mention my previous wiccan life- I don't want to impose on your club.

Why do you all think a muslim would come in here anyway? I wasn't a muslim all my life- and just because I don't consider myself a wiccan anymore doesn't mean I was a stupid or uneducated one.
I don't think i'm going to share any more.
peace

I had been in previous held post telling some stories about a monk who turns up at the New England version of PSG frequently, Arminius. Good sport, that guy. I've actually just never felt like dealing with him when I was able to go there, (guess why) but he's very respectable. :)

Paganplace:

"I'm sure you'd be welcome, Arminius, as long as you know it's kind of someone else's space, in terms of the religious thing, ...as mentioned, well, there's a spirit about these things. :)"

It's the spirit that I would come to see and to share. I would never be there to preach. You should know by this time how I respect that!

Arminius

Hey, who's that Anonymous, anyway? New? Are you the one from a couple days ago? :)

I had meant to greet,, and all.

Also, I'm sure you'd be welcome, Arminius, as long as you know it's kind of someone else's space, in terms of the religious thing, ...as mentioned, well, there's a spirit about these things. :)

Eh, the Net's been crazy for weeks. There must be breaking news out there. Like... Houston and Galveston or something. Word's filtering out.

Paganplace: The post filter here is definitely psychotic. Be patient.

Terra, stop abusing your computer! Sometimes a thump on the top will work, but usually a paint-peeling burst of swearing works just fine. Take this from an old computer programmer.

Arminius

I have had to refresh each time I post...

MM and BB...

and my computer is mis-behaving...I think it needs its innards dusted...or kicked. ; )

terra

Pardon the testing, but I'm having posts held for no apparent reason.

MMA, Terra! :)

Arminus,

Oh it is a stretch for me too...18 hour drive.

You bet we can keep touch.

Blessed Be..

terragazelle@ yahoo.com

Victoria,
Barack Obama's Mother was the head of research for the Woman's World Banking...she was an early proponent of micro finance. She was in Indonesia to do Micro Financing for the poor women there. She started out as a Anthropologist...in fact Obama might have gained alot of knowledge about economy from his Mom, besides the job he had in New York as a junior editor for Business International Corp., a publisher based in New York. He wrote a newsletter telling people in foreign countries how to make money.
Anyway your talkiing about Micro-loans reminded me of this fact.

terra

Hi, Terra,

I think I would like PSG very much. I also think it would take me about 60 seconds to see the 'freeness'. Ohio is a stretch, but in a year or so I might manage it. Let's keep in touch.

Arminius

Arminus,
You are most certainly invited to any Pagan fest you would like to attend. Depending on which would be easier for you for transportation...I love Pagan Spirit Gathering. It is in Ohio and the oldest in the country. In 2005 it held it's 25 anniversary.

All Pagans and those friendly to Pagans are invited. I think you would love it..it is primitive..tenting or RV's..no generators, but it does have a great Coffee house..serves horrible; coffee but great conversation and entertainment,lol. It sits on 620 acres of rolling hills..every thing is Green...biodegradables only;shampoo, soap...etc...The land was mine spoils, wouldn't grow anything but pines. Now it is brought back to the way it should be. It was bought by a group of Pagans, the state comes to them to find out how they did it. Everyone that goes to PSG takes responcibility for the land..and a thousand people when they pack up and leave, it looks like no one had been there. There was a pond that was nothing but algi,scum and leeches...yuck! and now people can swim there and it is clear and lovely.

Arminus, I think you would love the Pagan community. It would take you about 10 minutes to get used to the "freeness" of it. You would start looking at people in their eyes..and really listening...because what they have to say is important, a chance to learn. You can tell I miss PSG...I would love to share it.

terra

Victoria,
I have been trying to catch up on posts...your view that there is no structure to Pagan lives or community is wrong. Very wrong. Maybe it is because of your idea that Rainbow is a Pagan community gave you that view. I will talk about my tradition...The laws come first, and there are alot of them. They are commonsence and a reminder that what you do matters..it affects others, and so will end up effecting you. The Three Fold Law, I would rather call it the Law of Return, it is closer to how it behaves. It is the same as What goes around, comes around. Or what you sow you will reap. The three fold law is not three laws.

You can tell a Pagan gathering from just a new age/hippy/party tyme gathering because of the structure, and some of those younguns that call themselves Pagan aren't, not yet. Our ancestors did not create a society of "what ever you want to do," they had laws and structure. Every civilization got a start as a Pagan community. Do you think the Library of Alexandria was built by ignorant heathens? Or even Stonehedge or the Roman aquaducts? We are Modern Pagans, our religions are not the same as the ancient ones..but we hold to the core of what we think is the best of what they were, while adding what knowledge we have from the 21st century.

Victoria, if you want to see what Pagan commuity is..go to a Pagan Gathering.

terra

Hi, Terra,

You move me. You Pagans are really good people. Some day I would like to attend one of your festivals, if that is allowed.

Arminius

Victoria and PP..Blessings to you both,
As far as a Pagan Festival...? Rainbow ain't it. Oh Pagans go I guess, but it is not Pagan. I have been to Pagan fests, there is one I go to every year, and they are led and attended differently. Community is a big deal in Pagan Gatherings... like in PSG each person does 4 hours of community service, garbage detail, recycling, gate watch, bond fires,aid stations...etc, everything it takes to create and keep up a community. There is also a deep trust between us. There are leaders and guardians, there is child care and teen and tween centers..where they learn crafts, honor and community shareing and responcibility...Work shops, concerts and the Rituals and Rites of Passage. Victoria, I think you would like "living" as a Pagan, but Rainbow misses that.

The land is taken care of and if anyone needs help, we are all there. PP, you are right, it is the one week a year that so many take to refuel and go home. We call this being out in Mundania The Long Supply Run. PSG is Home. A place where you have a thousand folks and no locked doors.Where a woman, if she chooses can walk naked down a dark road going back to her came after a concert and not fear. Where a vender can leave a note..."If you want anything leave the money in the box. If I owe you change come back later to get it". Where a child who did something wrong at home , pays his mom back through doing work for others.

The Pagan community out in society, dealing with those who do not believe in shareing the good and the bad...are not the same as the ones who gather for that week. Would we change into greedy and ugly hearted Mundanes..I have no idea..but I really don't think so.

As a teacher I teach my students for a year on just the laws...it becomes second nature in how they look at the world. There is no second guessing on what is moral and what is not. What is the least harmful. In this economic crisis, is it better to bail out the failing institutions or allow the nation to fail and so doing watch a global meltdown? Should we lose the war for the lack of a horse shoe?

We need to change...as a people and a nation. Morally we are bankrupt. I would rather live in a tent in a Pagan community shareing the good and the bad, then to know that some people are eating under beautiful roofs and some are not eating at all.

My grandfather lost almost everything he had in the Great Depression.This country's banks failed..and there was no backing them up. No one did anything to save the finances of this country.Ever read the Grapes of Wrath? That is what could have happend here and without the right amount of help, still could be. There are some on the Right who do not want mainstreet helped, they do not want to spend the money on that...Obama does, he feels it is important that everyone be helped at this time...since so many have been hurting for so long because of the deregulation and slow moving crisis we have had. He believes that that will aid the nation better in the long run. Shareing the good and the bad. It's not only moral, its commonsense and practical.

terra

And, not to heap too much on, here, Victoria: (too late, anyway,) ...You do address some very valid concerns, ...but you address them as though you're talking to some fictional 'someone else.'

" And I was talking about communes- not festivals, in reference to political structures."

Starhawk wasn't talking about communes, though. Neither was I.

She said, 'Local Enterprise.'

"And every pagan community has it's own hieiarchy and authority figure within it- so authority is fine if it is pagan, it is just non-pagan authority that is under suspicion."

See, this just shows you don't know us. Go to any Pagan gathering and say, 'Paid Clergy.' See what happens. :)

Also, it'd help if you capitalized Pagan. Uncapitalized, it's basically just an obsolete form of 'Everything Non-Abrahamic.'

Which Tarot actually really isn't, you know. Ever been to a Jewish wedding?

"If I came in and had the exact same story, and you didn't know I was a mulsim now-
you would have no critique of it."

Nonsense. If you were Pagan, I'd have to *really teach* you the stuff you're mischaracterizing. One way or another. :)

This way, I'm saying your experience of astrology and Tarot and hippies does not define us. Or what you're talking past.

Actually, speaking of Pagan honor and justice, you never do seem to see why it is I call you on some things you say, and back you on others, when I think *they're* being unfair.

I think all *you* see at this point is 'For me or against me.'

But that's not the world Pagans live in.

We're just trying to live, like everyone else.

Salaam?

" Pagans snipe and fight and disagree just like anyone else."

A little differently, actually. We certainly have a lot of arguments and discussions among ourselves, but they aren't in the context of absolutisms or rejections for being or thinking differently as the essential arbiter of one's value as a soul or a human being.

We argue because it's the business of speech and reason to do so, sometimes.

If we really thought others had 'false religion,' we'd hide out among the rest of the world and not bother having these conversations.

We could, you know.

"You cannot try to create a governing system that doesn't account for ALL of the natures of people."

Sure. Who says we were?

"For instance- what would be the criminal code of an ideal pagan society?"

That'd be... an interesting conversation. American Pagans don't pretend to have a religious law to usurp the civil one in the first place. One thing we know is that this is a bad idea.

If I had to speculate, though, it'd be based on recompense and loss of status, as it was of old, not on a punitive model as though 'suffering' is what makes things 'right with a Divine Judge.'

Not that it's pleasant.

When it comes to matters religious or magical, we do tend to self-police, where it's necessary. As best we can, considering 'No one has a monopoly.' Most of the folks who give us a bad name in fact have no clue what they're appropriating. I've always been of a conspicuously-warderly bent, myself, and most of the nastiness people get up to in the name of 'Witchcraft' is kept well away from any community that might notice or in fact, call them on the arrant BS they spew to get their invariably-banal 'gains.'

The first thing you have to understand is that we *do not want the government's job.* We have a wonderful government system we do not want to be corrupted any further by *other* ideological agendas.

We learned this from watching *you guys.*

If we had to, I'm sure we could cook something up out of what we've learned since ancient times and crash-test it till it works, but that's just not our focus.

Certainly, Pagan ideas of Justice are wrapped up in *honor* and *interconnection.* Not a 'fallen world' of 'sheep' who need to be constrained against their will in all personal matters.

It's not a 'top down' thing. Even High Kings of old were answerable to the *law* first and foremost, not granted a divine dispensation to act by fiat in proxy for King-Gods. (This is one place where Rome among other places *went wrong.* )

There's good stuff back there we could use. But as I said, we ain't out for the monotheists' self-appointed 'jobs.' We're for America. Government by the consent of the governed.

We do have a morality, which doesn't mean we have to rule. In fact, if our beloved country here would like to use any of our good ideas, well, those are open-source.

We try not to guffaw too much when 'You worship the created, you Godless heathens!' turns to 'Christianity has always said we must take responsible stewardship for Creation.

Long as it gets done, yo. :)

"Well- anyway- I see you are determined to find bad intentions that simply are not there so- that is also a conversation killer."

Well, if you want to rebuke us for what we're not saying, is that a conversation or are you just trying to say 'It's good if a Muslim says it, and if a Pagan says the same thing right in the first paragraph, I'll say, 'How Muslim of you, except you're not like that.'

You want a conversation, Victoria, talk to *us.* :) That's all.

"And the alternative ideal- that a few "trusted" people be given the reins to lead us- how do you get others to agree to their trustworthiness?"

In America, we call this, 'Rule by the consent of an informed electorate.'

As opposed to a blind conservative ideology that says that people should claim to obey an externally-imposed Scriptural 'morality' and then act as if those with the most drive and incentive to cheat should be trusted implicitly.

" You sound more like an evangelical christian telling a catholic that they are not a christian."

No, I'm basically being like a Hindu telling a Mormon that criticizing Eastern philospophy based on what Mormons say about pilates instructors may be barking up the wrong tree. :)

"Basically my point was and is- that basing an ecnomic philosophy on the assertion that we trust people to be responsible- is naive."

My point was that you keep claiming this is what Starhawk (or I) are saying, and, naive or not as you may think the idea is, that's not what either of us is saying.

"I shared a tiny bit of my experience with you out of respect.
Not for you to try to rip apart and mock my experiences, or try to invalidate them."

No, Victoria, ... we do always end up talking past each other on this, but you keep making assertions about us, then claiming it's 'offensive' when we say it's not how it is.

"You don't have a monopoly on Paganism, or how it is practiced, nor understanding it."

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. You characterize us one way, then when I dispute the characterization, you say 'You don't have a monopoly.'

As opposed to ...your expertise on us from some Tarot readings, calling Rainbow a Pagan gathering, and thinking the Threefold Law is some three commandments?

PP-
What you are projecting as some dismal attempt to competitively "claim" ideas as exclusive or seminal to Islam-

When in reality- my true and real intention was to show the unviersality of people- how their ideas are similar- their yearnings, compassion for others, respect for all and the planet, and deep desire for justice.

I shared a tiny bit of my experience with you out of respect.
Not for you to try to rip apart and mock my experiences, or try to invalidate them.

You don't have a monopoly on Paganism, or how it is practiced, nor understanding it.

As I stated before- it was the tangible MECHANICS of the law of return I was talking about-

The Rainbow Festival is not a commune nor social structure- it's example was given clearly to illustrate that many many many many pagans flock to them, and have just as many ways of practicing their various paths.

And I was talking about communes- not festivals, in reference to political structures.

And every pagan community has it's own hieiarchy and authority figure within it- so authority is fine if it is pagan, it is just non-pagan authority that is under suspicion.

If I came in and had the exact same story, and you didn't know I was a mulsim now-
you would have no critique of it.

You sound more like an evangelical christian telling a catholic that they are not a christian.

Basically my point was and is- that basing an ecnomic philosophy on the assertion that we trust people to be responsible- is naive.

And the alternative ideal- that a few "trusted" people be given the reins to lead us- how do you get others to agree to their trustworthiness?

You could not- there would be overly pacifist pagans who will disagree with the basic competiiveness which is necessary for an economic guru- and the disagreements wouldn't stop there-

Pagans snipe and fight and disagree just like anyone else.

You cannot try to create a governing system that doesn't account for ALL of the natures of people.

For instance- what would be the criminal code of an ideal pagan society?

Well- anyway- I see you are determined to find bad intentions that simply are not there so- that is also a conversation killer.
Peace

It *is* a pet peeve, you know, Victoria. All manner of folks out there...some of them very well-paid as 'educators on the dangers of the occult' who never lived the life or understood what it was all about... claim they know 'all about Paganism' as self-styled 'ex-Pagans' ...either trivializing our religion cause they had a 'Tarot phase' and never actually *got it* ... or who bought a book on 'magick' to try and deal with bipolar symptoms, till someone gave em positive attention for thinking they were under some Satanic influence and claiming they know all about 'devils'.

Most of the people complaining about the lack of community cohesion are actually the ones who *don't show up in community cause they think they know it's unacceptably non-cohesive.*

Not that you *have* to be part of a group or community to be a Pagan, but on the other hand, what people say on the Net to talk themselves out of reaching out just isn't what 'the community' is all about, either.

I had an extensive conversation with someone who'd previously styled himself an authority on Druidism, who'd converted to Islam, but the thing was, he'd pursued Druidism looking for a unitary authority which would support his own notions of male entitlement to said authority.

But that's one reason Pagans are all about letting people come and go freely. If he'd stayed, he might have kept trying to turn our ways into something else... maybe trying to turn what's left of Celtic heritage into an 'alternative Bible.'

Often what people see in Pagan ways *is* rather trivial, ...or informed by disinformation campaigns. But if people want it to *stay* that way, they tend to get disappointed and move on, ...or see it for what it is and join on in.

Community cohesion is not based on unitary authority: if you make community as indirect as that, people will just divide over who has the right interpretation of that unitary authority, or whatever darn thing.

Community that celebrates differences and cooperates among them may seem like a ridiculous notion, the way many are taught to think, but in fact that's the only way community ever *happens,* even if it's being billed otherwise.

I mean, Victoria, you seem to be holding as an (exclusively) Muslim value something very like what Starhawk says in the first paragraph, here:

"Is the economy a moral issue? The heart of Pagan morality is the understanding that we are all interconnected, all part of an interwoven web of life. The suffering of others affects each one of us. The destruction of nature undermines the well being of all. So yes, the economy is a profoundly moral issue."

She isn't talking about Rainbow, here.

Or even actual Pagan festivals.

We do love those, if we can get to them. How things get managed there is a welcome break from having to cope at least in part with the inherently-overcompetitive and individualist spin things have taken in mainstream society.

Of course one's conscious of how artificial it all is, as the point of such festivals is... well, having a festival, and they're often the only vacation some folks take all year, but how we get together on those *does* have some implications for how *community* can be, ...it always strikes me how people get after a few days out of the mainstream world, ...and I think it gives the lie to the notion people are essentially selfish, irresponsible, and greedy.

If this were the case, putting a bunch of people without absolutist moralistic rules together should *degenerate,* but the opposite happens.

Obviously, you can't run a whole economy like it's a 'vacation in the woods,' but it does, to me, *powerfully* say *that* much.

Rainbow, to my second-hand understanding, can get like that, kind of, though a good number of the people that go there actually do go to get 'drunk as lords' and there's often trouble, even as the hippie types get together and hold things together. People get a lot out of that, I guess. Closest I've really seen to that is camping out for a couple of Dead shows a long time ago, (I was a token punk rocker at the time. :) ) and hanging around with the cool people that go there. That's another thing that hearkens back to old market festivals from the heritage Pagans seek to inform modern lives with.

Ac asctual Pagans go, we do have our means of consensus-building, ..we certainly do trust the power of community, and are of course suspicious of authority and anything exploitive.

Under conservative economics, things seem to be the reverse, ...they claim we should be suspicious of individuals and small groups as unable to 'not be sinful,' and should mock 'Community Organizers' (unless they proselytize people into moralistic obedience and blind faith in the 'Free market,' as in under Bush's 'Faith Based Initiatives')

...But, they say, should write wealth and authority a blank check and apologize for the greediest as merely being part of a collective 'sin' if they claim to be monotheist.

We say it's quite different. The creativity and caring of small groups is an infinite resource, but what can be taken from the world by the wealthy and which they say we should hope will 'trickle down,' ...is very very finite.

Our country amassed great wealth and infrastructure since the Thirties, ...which, in the recent decades, number-pushers have fed off, even as they neglect and *sell off* that infrastructure while putting us in debt to foreign nations and private corporations.

This, as we've been saying, never could have gone on forever.

When they say, 'Only big-money greed can bring innovation,' ...well, why does the big money *sit* on innovation as long as possible, unless it's innovations in distraction, advertising, and weapons systems?

There are, however, *incredible* untapped resources in *all* of our communities. Stuff we miss out on if everything has to go through Wall Street first.

Welcome to Wal-Mart.

The below should read, 'Sarah Palin's *pastor.*'

Well, CCNL, Victoria's right, Sarah Palin went to Kenya and got her Christian 'hoodoo voodooed.' She even made it an advertising point.

I will say, though, Victoria, claiming to have 'lived as a pagan' whatever that means to you, isn't the same as Pagan religion as you imply.

Certainly, doing Tarot readings or going to Rainbow Gathering doesn't make one a Pagan... (Actually, no, I've never been to one, myself: that really *is* a hippie thing. I know a few Pagans who go there, but it's a *rainbow* gathering, not a Pagan event. )

Even those Pagans who don't believe in 'prostituting the magic' wouldn't have to worry about it just by doing 'non-magical' divination as you describe. Ethics like that vary. Tarot isn't even a 'Neopagan thing,' it's just not prohibited.

On this:

"Like I said before- I'm familair with the three fold law- there is a similar 10 fold law in christianity which I am also familiar with."

I think this just shows a lack of understanding: the Threefold Law isn't a list of three rules imposed from somewhere else: actually, the phrase is short for 'The Law of Threefold Return,' ...it's more like a law of physics than some 'commandment.' :)

As cohesion goes, it's actually a mistake to think that believing in the same God or set of theological rules somehow keeps the greedy in check, ...certainly it's no worse a proposition than expecting everyone to obey unclear divine commandments and then set the foxes to guard the henhouse.

Again, you read too much into what Starhawk's saying, (it seems in some ways, you're imagining hippies doing away with any financial laws and expecting the resulting love-fest to make the greediest honest. This isn't the case. Frankly, the more absolute the written 'moral rules' seem to be, the more people can be hypocrites and talk Scripture while they're actually pursuing economic inequity.)

See, you say this, as though by contrast:

"Now, one of the extraordinary things about Islam is that in its core philosophy one is constantly balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of the holistic society."

If you can't see that in what Starhawk writes, maybe you think it's more 'extraordinary' than it really is. :)

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Either the fun and feasting of Ramadan is bothering your reasoning or the fasting is. You might want to take a break until after Ramadan. Or maybe it is simply following all the errors/flaws and/or strange rules of Islam for the last few years???

Now here is something off topic but truly frightening-
I was just watching Keith Olbermann and he was discussing Palin's pastor from her church- who apparently- when he was in Kenya- prompted the locals to blame a local fortune teller for the rise in traffic accidents-
Palin credits this pastor with laying hands on her and his prayers getting her governorship-

It is truly terrifying-
http://wordpress.com/tag/thomas-muthee/

PP- I really didn't intend to miscahracterize you in any way- if I did, I'm sorry- I can't copy and paste here for some reason so I'll go back and look at what you're referring to- I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding-

Pagan rules (see, I'm trying to be respectful and cap- but I'll probably forget in my stram of consciousness way of writing- but to be fair- i do it to myself- not even capping I- and my religion, islam etc- so - no dis meant)

I was referring to different Pagan communities I've been to- different groups- different rules- mercy- you've probably been to a Rainbow gathering or 2 in your life, right?

You know there are as many practices as people there-
you must know some rainbow people surely.

It is the lack of superstructure, and the individual rules that people will ALWAYS create in any communal setting i was referring to-

this same lack of a center my bind loosely for while- but it also contributes to the eventual breakdown of the community-

********************************
{{{LONG BORING STORY ALERT}}}
here is the deal PP-
I am not claiming to KNOW pagans- I lived as a pagan for many many years-
And I had strong ideas and critiques while I practiced also- for instance- I never accepted any kind of remuneration for a tarot reading- and I did it for 20 years-

I was offered $200. dollars for 15 minute readings in Beverly Hills- but I maintained that the gift is given freely and should be freely distributed, and anything less is spiritual prostitution. I'm a purist you see.

I actually worked for a man who was developing artificial intelligence for Honeywell Bull (one of 5 people on the planet- teaching computers to dream)

Since I had made a study of tarot, astrology (western and chinese) and numerology I developed a system that ascribed a value system to all of the different symbologies and integrated them into a whole.

I chronicled every reading I had ever given- had notebooks filled with neat legible dated readings questions- answers given etc- and then I'd go back and follow up to see if there was a pattern- if the readings bore out any truth-

When I gave a reading- I stipulated that I possessed no secret knowledge- had no inside tract- and to beware of those who claimed they did- and that the reading was an indication of possible outcomes, but the ultimate responsibility lay upon the receiver to recognize their own patterns of behavior , and how to avert self destructive tendnencies in the future-
Also, I always insisted that they not tell me what their question was. So that my responses were not corrupted or influenced by knowing what they were looking for.

I won't go into a long harangue about my discoveries- but I ended up working as an advisor to Honeywell Bull- dreaming computers, the blending of the intuitive with the scientific- it was an interesting job. I gave hundred -Or more I don't remember- of controlled readings- in setting of my choice- and at my insistence the questions had to be real questions- from real people-

I always meditated before readings- it was a spiritual practice for me- and also an intensive journey of self discovery-
I never even read for another person until I had exhausted my own self-

So, we entered that data findings and many of the values were extrememly esoiteric- things that a value is difficult to even acsribe to- judgements that were personal and often just about impossible to describe without borrowing from various traditions- states of consciousness etc etc etc

Anyway- the outcome was that it is an indeterminate process.

This by no means fully encompasses or describes the entire career of it with me- it is as short and superficial an account as I could make it for the sake of space and the boredom factor from your POV.
{{{{{END OF BORING STORY}}}}
*************************************

We always had a houseful of hippies from the late 60's to the early 70's.

Like I said before- I'm familair with the three fold law- there is a similar 10 fold law in christianity which I am also familiar with.

As for my "trivialization fo you cannot even agree on gods or goddesses"

I WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT YOU- OR PAGANS I WAS TALKING ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS IN GENERAL BEING UNABLE TO COME TO ANY KIND OF CONSENSUS!

Hence the difficulty of finding those special people to be the trusted regulators- for the hypothetical form of governing discussed- my point was - How will you get people to agree who they might be?
There is different critieria that is important to different peoples etc-

originally I wrote god- but added goddesses as a repsctful nod to your beliefs!

which is the OPPOSITE of trivializing- or disrepsect.

So, I hope that is clear-

As for individual freedom- and collective responsibility- the human race is wired that way.
Sure- it is ideal- and would be great- but the fact is there are just too many irresponsible and evil people out there who will take advantage of and corrupt it to their own benefit.

Now, one of the extraordinary things about Islam is that in its core philosophy one is constantly balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of the holistic society.

And we say that if one member of the collective body of humanity is in pain or injured- the whole body suffers.

It's universalism has great appeal for me- and far from being a 'zealous convert', I am an old hand and more like a comfortable enthusiast-

As for magic and wicca- that is another long boring story for another time- I have alot of observations about it- but I really do try not to denigrate or critique others belief systems as I think it is bad manners on my part to do so.

Believe me- if I were going to deconstruct any religion it would be christianity- but it would be possibly rude or hurtful to do so.

I wanted to go sit on my couch- but discovered it is covered with cats and kittens- and I have an underlying suspicion sometimes that my real purpose in life is to serve them.
At least that is what they tell me. And so far, they seem to be right.
Peace

Well, Victoria, you mischaracterize some of what I was saying. Certainly if you want to claim to know a lot of Pagans and characterize them for ill, then claim that the parts you like are 'Pretty Islamic,' ...well, that's the kind of filtering we get from Christians all the time.

Certainly, as addressed, a lot of Pagans may seem to be all over the place, though I'm not sure where you get your notion they're all about 'So many rules,' ...you'd have to cite some for me to speak to that.

As the anonymous poster said, there's another persective about these things, and how we do come together... What certainly *would* be fractiousness in a belief-focused religion, is part of our diversity in ours. Process, not product.

And I wasn't saying that your practices necessarily involve some 'quid pro quo' of money, I was objecting to your characterization of *our* observation of the Threefold law in the way you found so offensive if it'd been directed at you.

The Threefold Law isn't about getting your *money* back threefold, necessarily. What goes around, ...goes around, comes around, and stays around, with no particular stipulations as to form.

Why three? Well, at the least, everything for us is seen to happen in three worlds, anyway.

You seem to be making assumptions about what Starhawk is talking about. The 'Regulation' we're talking about could and probably *should* be entirely conventional under the American system: in fact *not* based on the 'moral absolutist' beliefs of those most inclined and tempted to break their own rules.

There's individual freedom, also a sense of collective responsibility, ...and, frankly, our values don't require building a Utopia with no one else in it for them to work at all.

Your trivialization of 'You can't even agree on a God or Goddess' is ...ridiculous on the face. It's called being *polytheist.*

Anyway. *If* things were based on Pagan morality, it would certainly be different. Since they're not, there's a lot of different ways we negotiate our way through the world. We see this as a strength, actually, in many ways, at least.

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

Considering your experience with Christianity and Islam, voodoo with or without the hoodoo or blackmagic or witchcraft should be easy for you to adapt to.

Gaby,

Good for you! Keep it up. It will take a large hammer to get their attention.

Arminius,

I just send a letter to the WaPo in regards to JJ. He has finally succeeded in p*ssing me off.

I'll let you know if I get a response.

Victoria,

the problem only begins when people try to tell others what 'they need' or they "should do". As you are here. If we lead by example, it can start small, but it can grow.

You obviously misunderstand our Rule of threefold return. It's the idea that whenever one takes action, one accepts the consequences. And yes, it does work for us. that's why we follow it. I can point to very specific circumstances in my own life as a very clear example of threefold return. And no, I don't feel the need to share them with you. It's not your business.

and WHY on Gaia's green land must we agree on a god or goddess? Who told you that all people under one label should practice the same way? and why put everyone under one label, anyway, when people are so distinctly different than one word?

the thing about Paganism is if one decides to actually study and pursue this path seriously, they are given PRACTICE. NOT beliefs. To be used by the practitioner in only the ways they are comfortable. The best part of our communities is the ability to come together with all different beliefs to honor the holidays with one another as well as our own private ceremonies.

If it's not for you, fine. But at least make an effort to understand that it's ok that others think differently from you, and not put them down as a result of it.

Religion comes from 're-ligiare', meaning 'to bind.' As we bind, so are we bound. Spirituality that is encompassed by a Pagan practice is a choice. There's a big difference here that you are not understanding.

and it is Pagans, capital P, please.

I have done much of the same work as you. And I have found my own life enriched by it. That's all the reward I need. It's about leading by example, not by shouting as you are about who is the most pious. And expecting others to give you 'respect' when you obviously don't give it to anyone else.

I doubt seriously that you have met so many actual, practicing Pagans as you think. People often adopt the term as meaning 'non Christian' or just for shock value. The workings of those who actually practice and try to walk and live the path are much different.

I do not doubt that you have done much good for those you have served.. but it appears that you are looking for some sort of appreciation or validation. Which appears really self serving, in the end.

I'm sorry, the suicide bomb attack I mentioned below was in 2001, not 1991.
My e-mail is xnykids@aol.com

As a Midwife who has delivered over 1250 babies, an Orthodox Jew, a mother of an innocent student who was maimed from a bomb attack in Israel in 1991, and a grandmother, I wonder how much of Judaism and Jewish history you have studied.
Starhawk, you were born a Jew, as was I. You were a hippie, as was I. You have dedicated your life to women, children and the earth, as have I.
I am reading Spiral Dance because I love all things female and spiritual. And yet your website on "Palestine" frightens me.
Torah, God and The Goddess are all the same if they are all true.
If it is Truth you have dedicated your life to, then how can it be that you havent studied your own roots in Torah? You might better understand the plight of Jews, Arabs, power and politics.
We all, as women and seekers of Truth are drawn to the "underdog", which is how media has portrayed the Palestinian. Our compassionate hearts naturally want to protect such a character. But I am sure you know that the media has no connection to reality, and there is little truth there. I have been visiting Israel regularly for over 30 years. 2 of my children live in Jerusalem. You seem to only visit the area you call "Palestine". Torah and Shabbos will enlighten you. It wont negate your work as a Witch, if that is also true.

The main core of your philosophy - which is fine for you but insufficent for me- is that it requires trust for a few special people to regulate- to work.

Well- not everyone is going to agree with you as to who those few special regulators may be- haven't you noticed we cannot even agree on a special person to run this country? let alone the whole world-

And people are very very different- and just arent going to agree with the criteria that you may think is spiritually mature or trustworthy- and people when they are given that kind of power and trust rarely maintain their purity- it is just human nature.

So I don't think that reality is realistic at all- Idealistic, yes- would be nice -definitely- but i don't see how it would work.

people cannot even agree on a god or goddess!

In my life, my philosophy is to leave every person and situation better than I found it- that is my spiritual footprint that I try wholeheartedly to manifest- there are people who need a little and I reach a metaphorical down to help them up- and people who help me metaphorically up- an unending stretch of hands helping each other up oto realize our connected humnaity-

and that is NOT some convert (it is REvert by the way) zeal- (that is to me, an insult)
I am actually less zealous and energetic than I have been in my youth- it is just my natural energy and how I approach everything no matter what it may be.

Jacob- why don't you just say "hi" instead?
You know I always say hi back. Happy Every day.

Arminius- aww, don't go.

For some reason, I dont have my computer set up to compalin- when I've tried to contact the board my URL or whatever is rejected.

PP- Who said life is a burden? Burdens are burdens. Everyone has them. No one can suffer, truly for another. Believe me, I've tired, it's not possible.

As for this stuff about Pagans returning faovr for favor and taking debt seriously- give me a brak!

I've known wicked greedy pagans, and bliss ninny pagans, prductive pagans, and lazy pagans, dope smoking pagans and composting pagans- drunk pagans and sober pagans-

Yes, there is an ideal- but every religion and ideology has an ideal-

I just realized that you think no one else has discovered magic, and the blessing sthat fall unepxectedly in one's lap- being in the flow-

I lived in the flow for years! One day- I spent the entire day on a beach like a leaf in the eind going wherever the wind tok me- I actually wandered into some beachfront and was invited to have a drink- just as casual as you please-

I have years of renunciation and wealth- renuncuiation and semi-wealth- all ove r the place- sure there is a natural flow and order in the universe-

The thing with Pagans is, they just have so many RULES- and they change them wherever you go-

This group has a general consensus that such and such is acceptable- this other group has another leaning- no different than anyone that ever lived anywhere-

But it is this lack of cohesion that binds loosely- but also breaks down after awhile.

So it wasn't for me.

I sat on the sidewalk and listened to my ladyfriend play guitar and sing a song she wrote about the west- (and it hurt when I got up- I used to be so limber) In Astoria NY! This is NOT sitting on the ground hippy dippy neighborhood-

Alot of pagans are hippies, hippies are fine- but they kept trying to reinvent things that already had successful templates-

Communie life sucks unless it's a working solvent one- and then there are STILL subdivisons and politics and greedy ones who hoard- just lije anywhere!

That's why I love Islam- its a loosely knit but solid cohesive and harmonious structure- you don't have to love it- but there is alot fo value in building upon an ideal for centuries- some have succeeded- like the spanish and the ottomans for centuries- even the rule in jeruslaem for centuries- but nothing lasts forever- corruption sets in-

You actually insult me deeply by assuming my giving has ever been quid pro quo-

I wasn't talking about some mundane selfish spirituality- I was talking about the mechanics of it-
It is not reproducable, or consitent or dependable-
Sure you can say a threefold return- but if you can never point to it and say, see? this is how it works- it doesn't really work- in Christianity for instance- it is tenfold- in Islam- there is no concept of return.

I think you don't realize that I've lived with pagans, been around them most of my life- and the things you are assuming I've been "taught" -

You have to give actual respect to receive it-
I'm not asking or wanting you to come to my side- just learn a little about it before you dismiss it so easily.

One has to be smoewhat conversant in a subject before they can critique it- learn alittle about something outside the realm of your experience-
I guarantee you will be (spiritually)richer for it-


The idea I rpresented before that you didn't understand- maybe I didn't explain it correctly-
if one has the intention to do a bad deed- and does not perform it- that is counted as a blessing in the big scoreboard in the ethers-

And don't try and tell me pagans don't believe in the laws of return!!!

Another distasteful behavior is having suspicion for evil-
Muslims are compelled to have suspicion for the good in people- that has it's own very real,tangible magic.

Try it sometime, every person you meet- imagine the best intentions in them- often it brings them out when the person didn't even know it was there-or dodn't INTEND it- because they are made aware of their own goodness or potential for good in the reflection of your behavior, expectations and eyes- and it brings it out where it would have turned sour- and they want to live up to that goodness- if only for a moment-

well -that's enough for me-

I think you don't know anybody like me- and that is why you misunderstand my meanings -

Even read what people write with a suspicion for the best in them!
It makes the world of difference.

O, Muhaamd Yunus- who said it was a new idea? But he is the first to do it on a major scale- and has impacted thousands of lives for it in a positive way- changed lives and communities and families- thousands- that is why they gave him a nobel prize for it-
amazing magic-

The Money Changers gives some interesting perspective

Then and now.

http://coinage.me/coinage_the_money_changers.htm

Of course, you could also ignore JJ and talk about different views of the morality of economics, but why reach when we can take something personally?

Could be pushing some envelope.

And nothing good comes otherwise than in an envelope, does it?

/snark.

Eh, Arminius, JJ spams everywhere.

That's why they call it *spam.*

I'll join you in asking the mods why more isn't being done, though.

Why, mods?

If Arminius goes, well, he seems to be the only one representing moderate Christians, so .... what's the point of any of us saying anything here?

Any of us really think what we have to say is worth plowing through cut and paste spam?

Or...

Is that why they do it?

Friend Priver,

What I will do is hang out on Susan Jacoby's blog. She actively monitors her blog, making her alone among the panelists. She will slam JJ, which is why he seldom goes there.

I am tired, Priver, bone tired. I have waged a constant campaign against this plague, supported by some, to be sure, but it is still tilting against windmills. The powers-that-be don't care, hell, they don't even notice.

I will miss Starhawk's wisdom.

Thanks, friend!

Arminius

Arminius,

Please don't leave. If you do, he wins. Don't give him the satisfaction.

If WaPo/Newsweek does not do something about the spamming of JJ in 24 hours, I am out of here forever. I am tired of being the only one fighting this crap. Life is too damn short, I have better things to do. To hell with the spineless weenies that can't manage this place.

Of course, ...meanwhile, back in the economy.....

And, yep. That's spam.

Speaking of pietas and honor.

JJ.

When you posed as our friend and then sought to defame us, while lying about your true motives, you proved yourself a coward and a liar.

Compounding it by being an *idiot,* well...

What is it you expect to happen here?

"Paganplace,

"Ya pushed the envelope here."

Sorry, it's my job. Shoulda seen my last departure. I had help, though. ;)

"Crowe's character, Maximus, had nothing to do with 'pietas'."

This is what you don't get. He *did.*

All the tales we are told about Roman decadence and evil and degeneracy, we have them from what the Christians let survive, ...the characterizations of the Rush Limbaughs of the time.

Appealing to a really-stuck-up and moralistic audience. More willing to believe that people were crapping in the streets than to look at the long view and big picture.

If you read it in the Latin, you have to ask, 'WTF are they saying, here. If this civilization was so decadent and corrupt, why are people apppealing to some sense of morality that according to yer Popes didn't *exist?*

It's the same as now.

People *ain't* that bad.

But who makes the news.

And whose words get written down if anyone cares to read them?

What were you doing in 1985?

Match that up with Tipper Gore's assessment.

Interesting reading.

(noting with some irony that Tina Turner's theme to Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome is playing right now.)

"We don't need another hero.
"We don't need to know the way home..
All we want is life beyond
The thunder-dome."

Way too ironic even for me that this is the drama Mel Gibson has been acting out for us in every movie he ever made, one way or another. :)

Are you not entertained? :)

" He had everything to do with 'honos' (honor). I have a good appreciation of that period of history, as well as a reasonably decent background in it. You are really stretching it."

No, stretching it is talking about the roses.

"Marcus Aurelius? The last of the Five Good Emperors. He did his best. Sure, he was a general, and did pretty well. So what? Did you expect a vegan pacifist? He is a recognized great philosopher."

Did you expect me to expect a vegan pacifist? There was no such thing at the time.

"Your intrusion of NASCAR is utter BS. You are really better than that. What the hell are you trying to do here, offend everyone? Not like you."

Offend everyone? Are you offended?

Seriously. Since when does 'Go fast and turn left' really attract any attention if no one gets hurt?

Not that there isn't a lot of real effort involved, but.....

TO EVERYONE HERE WHO HAS A BRAIN AND CARES:

The long, offensive post here was inflicted by someone known as JJ. Those are his initials, because his name triggers an automatic block. But he has learned to get by this. If you want to know how sick he is, go to his web site. Note that I have spelled his name BACKWARDS between the two dots. Reverse the spelling to get it to work.
www.zvezoj.us
If you want to find out about his 'religion', created in prison and probably white supremacist, go here:
http://www.insideprison.com/prison_gang_profile_CONS.asp

PLEASE COMPLAIN!

Paganplace,'

If you are talking about the violations to history done by the movie 'Gladiator', you are spot on. That flick got a lot wrong, but I won't go into it here.

I was talking about the spirit of the movie. Different. Re 'Lord of the Rings'. In that three part movie, much different from the text. But the spirit was done perfectly. I have all of the three parts, director's cuts.

Paganplace,

Ya pushed the envelope here.

Crowe's character, Maximus, had nothing to do with 'pietas'. He had everything to do with 'honos' (honor). I have a good appreciation of that period of history, as well as a reasonably decent background in it. You are really stretching it.

Marcus Aurelius? The last of the Five Good Emperors. He did his best. Sure, he was a general, and did pretty well. So what? Did you expect a vegan pacifist? He is a recognized great philosopher.

Your intrusion of NASCAR is utter BS. You are really better than that. What the hell are you trying to do here, offend everyone? Not like you.

"MMA Arminius, Paganplace, everyone..

"Did you hear one of the latest statements of the Pope calling the greed of wall street 'the pagan love..' "

Yeah, I heard. Bold words for a gilded 'heir to the empire' dressed like a Medici in red Prada shoes... (Could you get any more culturally tone-deaf there?)

If he wants to be so anti-materialist, he can give back the temple of the Phrygian Mother. And the vestments too. :)

"the oddest thing of all in his statement was listening to it and going.. the only rich Pagan I know of.. is.... *crickets chirping*"

Hey, a Pagan won the lottery, at some point last year. You should have heard the conservative pundits segueing directly from 'The state shouldn't 'support' that kind of thing by paying out lottery tickets, directly to how 'obscene' it was that presumably-Christian lottery winners shouldn't be taxed on their winnings.

Didn't even skip a beat.

"Paganplace,

"Please explain to me just what the hell 'piety' had to do with the movie 'Gladiator'? I saw nothing of piety,"

That's cause someone redefined 'Pietas' for you. Russell Crowe's character, there, he really represents an exemplar of pietas and honor, as strongly contrasted by putting a romanticized Marcus Aurelius against the messed-up situations of some of the corruptions of empire and creeping Imperial primogeniture.

We oversimplify the 'Republic and Empire' dichotomy in modern times, but the tension has in fact always been there. And, fictionalized as it is, that film really speaks it all well.

Are you not entertained? :)

Or shall we turn on some NASCAR? :)

Paganplace,

Please explain to me just what the hell 'piety' had to do with the movie 'Gladiator'? I saw nothing of piety, either Roman or anything else of that ilk, there. I hugely enjoyed the movie.

MMA Arminius, Paganplace, everyone..

Did you hear one of the latest statements of the Pope calling the greed of wall street 'the pagan love..' the oddest thing of all in his statement was listening to it and going.. the only rich Pagan I know of.. is.... *crickets chirping*

And I second the 'reverence and mirth'. Celebrate faith, not mourn it.

I'll bring the drums. :)

"Oh yes. My mother always said, 'Be reverent, not pious'. Took me a long time to understand that."

No fault there. 'Piety' is actually kind of a Roman concept that got twisted into something else when Imperial Christianity took over. It used to mean something rather different. Ever see the movie 'Gladiator?'

That actually depicts the old piety. Not that I personally don't have mixed feelings about Rome, in those terms, but... In the sense that Aeneas was taken to be an exemplar of 'Piety.' He was kind of the Star Wars of the time. :)

Friend Paganplace,

"Yes it is. Mirth *and* reverence. Never scorn, but mirth *and* reverence.*"

I understand fully. Laugh with joy. Sometimes weep with joy. This is our reverence. I will gladly dance with you. And with Wiccan, Athena, Lep, and whoever else shows up. Somebody bring the mead and Guinness!

My God, what a concept!

Arminius

Oh yes. My mother always said, 'Be reverent, not pious'. Took me a long time to understand that.

" Arminius:

"Paganplace,

""The Church Not Made With Hands""

"No laughing matter."

Yes it is. Mirth *and* reverence. Never scorn, but mirth *and* reverence.*

When last did 'our society know *mirth?*

Where'd that word go?

What went with it?

"A place both you and I can revere. We could both dance there together."

So it is. Shhh. ;)

Hi, Victoria. :)

" VICTORIA:

"Your brand of Paganism sounds surprisingly Islamic Paganplace- that microloan you spoke of was what was enacted by Muhammad Yunus, nobel prize winner who gave out small loans (average $27.) to Bengali women to start their own cottage businesses."

The notion isn't exactly *novel or copyright,* though some might tell you differently, Victoria.

"But it is a conscious choice not to use credit-"

That is, unless you can't get it when you *do* deem it useful. Then it's just something you gotta live with.

If someone makes borrowing at usurious interest essentially mandatory, then you really do take your lumps for being a cash-or-barter-on-the-barrelhead type.

Pagans tend to take debt very seriously, would generally gift and return gift than say 'you owe,'

There's actually an old tradition of owing your dear friends a token amount of money or some other favor to be sure you'll meet again. Kind of carried through cowan times, that, but...

"also broadcasting ones intentions to the ethers- same thing in Islam- so important in fact, that in some instances intentions that are initially bad, but do not get acted upon,actually count as blessings."

Not sure what you mean, there, on the last part of that. Then again, I always say, if I had to be a 'monotheist' I'd be all Sufi. Even the dervish thing. *That* I *get.* Which is funny, cause few seem to.

"But I'm with Arminius on personal repsonsibility.
We bear our burdens alone,"

No. This, I reject, utterly. Personal responsibility does *not* mean life is a burden, or to be 'borne' alone.

That's what *they* tell us. Them. Those they.

Forget about it.

Talking to a Christian, I say, 'Mother of Birth, no... even your Savior didn't bear *his* 'cross' alone while everyone was crying, 'Dead Man Walking...'

Maybe *your* God grants you the dubious luxury of thinking you're alone, Victoria, turns out my Gods *don't.* Then again people keep calling me an 'Angel.' Unless I wanna live as a human being with my own religion. Go figure.

Seriously. I had to deal with being raised by a Catholic Marine. You gotta deal with *no one gets left behind,* citizen.

This is how we do it, Victoria.

I know you have a convert's zeal and don't actually accept how medieval things get when you got theocrats and dubious economic situations.

It gets pretty harsh. It gets to be not-about Liberty darn quick if you don't *have* it.

" and no matter hwo much we may like to- we cannot ever bear anothers burden- we may lighten their load by uplifting the holistic person- but it is still their ultimate responsibility."

Who taught you about 'burdens?' And 'Ultimates?'

"That plan on Pagan economics- sounds alot like deregulation to me."

Actually, it's not. It was about trusting the people *to* regulate. We're just taught to read it otherwise, if we aren't careful.

"If it were solid- all good and genrous people would be financially sound- but in reality- many of the sublimest and most altruistic intentions do not come back threefold-"

No, this isn't what our ways are about, Victoria. Not about 'quid pro quo.'

Or validating 'righteousness' by giving a little 'back' in expectation of greater rewards still.

You're applying a literal-mindedness that doesn't come with the package.

If we share freely, we may not *get a whole bunch more money,* ...but we get a tribe or a neighborhood or a village or maybe more where *we never want for it.*

We get more than we could buy, even if we quintupled our money.

You're taught that it's *us* 'appeasing idols,' Victoria, but that's actually kind of backwards.

"It goes on an assumption that the rest of the world is willing at some point to adopt such a philosophy-"

No, it doesn't.

Actually, it's a way of living better even when the rest of the world is calling you commie hippies one minute, selfish hedonists the other, and then topping it off with calling you Satanic while real life is what you get to deal with.

" in some distant future- but the reality of the present and the past show us that there are a great many very selfish and greedy people, and they will break the rules at every opportunity to get ahdead."

No one said they had to *make* the rules, being the key point.

NO one said we had to accept their idea of 'ahead,' either. It serves us ill.

"So we have to protect ourselves from their bad intentions- if we are personally weakened- we can do nothing for ourselves let alone anyone else in our sphere."

First rule of rescue, yes. But this doesn't apply to how we organize our communities, or let someone else organize them for us.

"Arminius- it sucks the way we treat our elders in this society."

Doubleplus ungood turbo suckage. Can't 'compete' can they?

"Unbridled capitalism may work well for the young and the strong- but it makes no provisions for the weak and sick and elderly."

That's kind of the point. Why put a 'yoke' on Arminius, when you can put a bridle on the 'mavericks?'

Well, I'm sure there's a rodeo metaphor in there somewhere.

This is about people, Victoria. And reality.

Paganplace,

"The Church Not Made With Hands"

No laughing matter.

A place both you and I can revere. We could both dance there together.

Thank God, not for sale, still in the National Park. But overpopulated. I could not bear to go there now.

There's a whole future economy here in Moon. We have flying fuel stations and a larger mission that you don't know about. It's been going on for a long time and it's going to keep going on for a long time to come. There's no stopping it, just airlifting it here.

Hello, Victoria,

Let us leave our monumental differences concerning the Mideast aside here, and reserve it for another blog. We have much in common.

OK, I'll dive into it.

Credit. A swamp. If you can chart a path, you have a chance of survival. I did not chart a path. My bad. Credit is not by its nature an evil - but it is easily a path to ruin, and the big companies knew this, exploited our innocence, and laughed all the way to the bank.

Responsibility. Yes, ultimately we are alone, and shoulder our burden. Yet that burden is laden with the needs of those we know and love, and the needs of those we don't know and should love. The Pagans, bless them!, have it right here - the web of connection. For many of us are still blessed with allies! Friends and family, and the community of our religion. This thing both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam hold solidly in common. As do countless other religions. There is hope.

Economics. Well, no expert am I on the 'dismal science'. But 'Pagan economics' to me sounds like a call for more and decent regulation. Yet a balance must be struck.

Elders: Yes, in America, we seem to get sidelined. I, thank God, am not. I am in full touch with my kids, who are really concerned about me, as I am about them. I am even in constant touch with my ex-wife, with whom I am still friends. Many others are not so fortunate.

Take care, keep posting.

Arminius

"I grew up among the gentle but grand mountains of East Tennessee. I have known mountaintops that I would gladly spend the rest of my days on."

Well, that doesn't usually seem to be the mountaintop of popular reference, but I've recently had the joy of dancing in a thunderstorm somewhat west of there. :)

"Hell, I would be privileged to die there. Such beauty cannot even be described. The trails leading to such places, amid the giant trees, especially alone in a gentle rain, can only be described as being in God's own cathedral.
As a Pagan, you could not be unmoved by such a place."

Could not, admittedly, kinsman.

What we might call... 'The Church Not Made With Hands. :)'

How's the real estate prices doing up there?

I forgot to put the link up-

http://search.nobelprize.org/search/nobel/?q=muhammad+yunus&i=en

I also wanted to say that I lived in the mountains of the great pacific northwest in the pine forst for 3 years and they were the happiest days of my life-

And LIB (CCNL)
I know I may incur some cosmic debt for this- and mostly I feel sorry for you- you will perceive that as kind of condescendng annoying pity and will likely respond with agression to it-

But I have to say this just once- because I admit that I think it just about every itme I read your posts-

OK- I won't say it, but I am thinking it right now.

PP,

What's up???

"Who taught you we needed the consent of the greedy?

Who taught you the *greedy* could stop us?

If we really want something different.

Seems a lot of kids of a lot of Gods want something different.

Who said we needed the permission of the 'greedy?' "

All I did was state a matter of fact!!! Where did you come up with the rest of the story????

It is a fact that the greedy, the nasty, the mindless, the murderers, the dictators, etc. will alway be with us. And it is also a fact that there isn't much we can do about it.

Starhawk, and people who think like her (me included), are a definite minority. I may not be Pagan, but I definitely share a lot of your beliefs.

Your brand of Paganism sounds surprisingly Islamic Paganplace- that microloan you spoke of was what was enacted by Muhammad Yunus, nobel prize winner who gave out small loans (average $27.) to Bengali women to start their own cottage businesses.

But it is a conscious choice not to use credit-
also broadcasting ones intentions to the ethers- same thing in Islam- so important in fact, that in some instances intentions that are initially bad, but do not get acted upon,actually count as blessings.

But I'm with Arminius on personal repsonsibility.
We bear our burdens alone, and no matter hwo much we may like to- we cannot ever bear anothers burden- we may lighten their load by uplifting the holistic person- but it is still their ultimate responsibility.

That plan on Pagan economics- sounds alot like deregulation to me.

If it were solid- all good and genrous people would be financially sound- but in reality- many of the sublimest and most altruistic intentions do not come back threefold-

It goes on an assumption that the rest of the world is willing at some point to adopt such a philosophy- in some distant future- but the reality of the present and the past show us that there are a great many very selfish and greedy people, and they will break the rules at every opportunity to get ahdead.

So we have to protect ourselves from their bad intentions- if we are personally weakened- we can do nothing for ourselves let alone anyone else in our sphere.

Arminius- it sucks the way we treat our elders in this society.

Unbridled capitalism may work well for the young and the strong- but it makes no provisions for the weak and sick and elderly.
(not you-)

I'm more of a mercantilism type myself.

But then the mosquitos carring the West Nile Virus and the ticks carrying Lyme Disease came to the mountains of East Tennessee.

Hi, Gaby,

Thanks, friend, I can use help. If you need some too, just holler. 'Cosmic energy'- I guess that is prayer, for me - on the way.

Yes, the greedy are always among us. But cannot we do our best to counteract this, living by example? And voting?

Arminus

Paganplace,

Just one more thing.

I grew up among the gentle but grand mountains of East Tennessee. I have known mountaintops that I would gladly spend the rest of my days on. Hell, I would be privileged to die there. Such beauty cannot even be described. The trails leading to such places, amid the giant trees, especially alone in a gentle rain, can only be described as being in God's own cathedral. As a Pagan, you could not be unmoved by such a place.

" Gaby:

Great Sentiments, Starhawk! Unfortunately, it will never happen because the greedy will always be among us."

Who taught you we needed the consent of the greedy?

Who taught you the *greedy* could stop us?

If we really want something different.

Seems a lot of kids of a lot of Gods want something different.

Who said we needed the permission of the 'greedy?'

Great Sentiments, Starhawk! Unfortunately, it will never happen because the greedy will always be among us.

The Germans have a saying "Nach mir die Sindflut." Translation: "After me, the flood." It refers to people who love no one but themselves and the mindset that they can do whatever they wish, because the next generation will be wiped out by some natural disaster.

Arminius,

I knew you had some troubles, Friend, but no idea that things are this dire. I can't help financially, but will try to send you some "cosmic energy".

And while we've diverted from any sense of macroeconomics, I'll sing a song for you and your troubles. :)

Hee, Arminius. What can be said, there.

""YOU: But if you don't know Joy in the chase, what are you trying to catch?
Me: The joy is not in any chase. The joy is in the journey, the pilgrim journey up that mountain that we are both taking, no matter how hard it is. Balance has nothing to do with it. Crawl if we have to.""

You know I always say a mountaintop is a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

You still describe a 'chase,' just one they told you involved carrying lumber and going uphill.

"YOU: And careful bout them yokes. As we bind, so are we bound. Not that certain oxcart drivers know that
ME: The yoke that Jesus put upon us is that of the Two Great Commandments. Easy to take. Light to bear. Hard to do."

If you were going to walk on water, would you do it by being heavy?

"You exhaust me, but you also inspire me."

Just another lil piece of the world, my friend.

:)

Damnit, Paganplace!

Will you stop bequeathing me a mandate to a post-graduate thesis?!? (LOL!) Hell, I am beyond exhausted in mid-afternoon! You are anything but non-subtle. Takes multiple readings.

Ok. Let's start here.

YOU: "We have no responsibility for how the world is."
ME: Granted. I have screwed up and added to the world's chaos. And the sun rises in the east. The point is: what can we do to make it better? 'Original Sin' hasn't squat to do with it, and I did not mention any mythology that I remember. In other words, screw guilt, let's get on with it.

YOU: Not talking about Spidey. Spidey worships at the altar of whatever caged him and poked him with sticks. Quite possibly still is. He's decided to appease and/or *become* what hurt him.
ME: Spidey is beyond that, he is beyond 'brat'. He truly walks in darkness, and is the exact opposite of what I believe. He is totally consumed with hatred. I am not into believing in Satan, but if I were, I would picture Spidey with '666' on his forehead.

YOU: "I, as a Christian, do have a cross to bear. That is mine by my choice, and it is for me alone."
Well, if you wanna get Pagan enough to say it was your choice, maybe get Pagan enough to pay attention how you handle your barn-timbers, by the Good God's dragging club.
ME: This is very personal and delicate. I can't really explain it. I don't walk around feeling like I am burdened, no. It is more like a responsibility. Very personal, very emotional, has a lot to do with our Holy Week. There is a bond here which cannot be put into words.

YOU: But if you don't know Joy in the chase, what are you trying to catch?
Me: The joy is not in any chase. The joy is in the journey, the pilgrim journey up that mountain that we are both taking, no matter how hard it is. Balance has nothing to do with it. Crawl if we have to.

YOU: And careful bout them yokes. As we bind, so are we bound. Not that certain oxcart drivers know that
ME: The yoke that Jesus put upon us is that of the Two Great Commandments. Easy to take. Light to bear. Hard to do.

You exhaust me, but you also inspire me.

Arminius

ME:

On this, by the way, Arminius:

"Just us. And what we've done."

Anyone who likes to figure there's some 'Intelligent Design' to all this stuff, or, say, useful arising purpose to what we have become, ought to actually look at what that 'design' or arising purpose is good for.

Apart from our lovely chattiness and self-awareness, when it comes down to it, it just so happens that we're the *absolute best* critters in the Gaiasphere at *just one thing.*

Apart from organizing in an abstract way and caring for each other, of course, though some say this is not so.

But one thing we're just the undisputed Bee's blessed knees at:

Throwing things at other things.

What if... We're the Earth's extremely-over-budget-and-behind-schedule defense system against a fricking rock hosing a couple billion years worth of development? :)

Maybe 'spirituality' aint' about welcoming 'Apocalypse,' or dealing with personal death as needing a complete and eternal solution, but....

Living up to our responsibilities.

Hey, Arminius. :)

" Arminius:

"We have no responsibility for how the world is."

I do. I even remember in particular some of my parts in it. Reincarnation ain't just an abstract concept to my experience, remember? It's nothing so grandiose as most tend to figure that belief entails, but, yes, I take such responsibility. Inasmuch as I'm really allowed to.

'Karma is a cup to be emptied,' some say.

It's not 'Original Sin' in a 'fallen world.'

Just us. And what we've done.

I helped make this. Whatever 'I' is in terms of information and memory.

Heck of a story that leads to these conclusions, but, the fact is, if *I* could look up my own verification, someone else could, too, (And claim that's how I got the story in the first place,) hassle people to no good end who I care about enough to leave alone, ...and still cry 'fraud' if proof were the important thing to them. ;)

" I do think we have a responsibility to try to make it better."

That's why. Whatever all this is about.

"Yes, anger out of control, going to the dark side of the force. We all know about Spidey. Ange"r must be put behind us, or at least channeled forwards."

Not talking about Spidey. Spidey worships at the altar of whatever caged him and poked him with sticks. Quite possibly still is. He's decided to appease and/or *become* what hurt him. The only power in his world belongs to tormenting authorities, so he hopes to be that power. Or think he is, when some demagogue provides excuses.

Still a brat.

Different sort of anger, (a ragestorm, really) than actually having worked hard, played by the rules, and gotten the shaft.

That's not anger. He's been coopted into stoking a 'hellfire' and then trying to throw someone else into it to save himself from whatever he got twisted into.

Firewood doesn't just warm, or make a nice barn, btw.

Maybe the Gods would say, of your Crosses, "We gave you all some nice timber, and look what you did. Dragged it around everywhere you go, then burned it in a pile and threw a scapegoat on it. Great. Try again....."

"I, as a Christian, do have a cross to bear. That is mine by my choice, and it is for me alone."

Well, if you wanna get Pagan enough to say it was your choice, maybe get Pagan enough to pay attention how you handle your barn-timbers, by the Good God's dragging club.

Even your savior didn't walk around all his life 'bearing a cross.' And when he *did* get sentenced to one, he did *not* bear it alone, if the Passion-play demonstration didn't teach you how *not* to go to your death under yokes when authority tells you to, unless you're trying to make a very specific point and blow the sling ball out an Irish High king's head from pure indignance. :)

" It ain't easy, even though the words are truly said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." It's not the weight of it, it is the path. "

Well, who's driving? You? Me? What someone with an Mba says?

"But the key word here is 'joy', not 'happiness', if you can put your mind around that. I think you might."

Sure can. Top point of *my* personal geometric religious figure, straight from the Lady's Spirograph to a discount jeweler near you. :)

America's contract with ourselves and the Divine is dedicated to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

But if you don't know Joy in the chase, what are you trying to catch?

Ain't about those balance sheets.

It's about *balance.* Can't run without balance.

And careful bout them yokes. As we bind, so are we bound. Not that certain oxcart drivers know that.

Hi, Friend Athena,

Thanks! You can help by working for the betterment of all, which I know you do anyway. I guess a few spells would not hurt.

Yes, the Threefold Law. The failing CEOs of these disasters go out with threefold golden parachutes. Hopefully, this will come back to haunt them.

I can subsist on what I have, I think. I will never be prosperous, but so what? Friends, family, and faith are a person's true wealth.

Yes, Texas is under a federal ban on national news media. No one knows what is going on, except that FEMA is not really active there. Big Brother is alive and well, and I fear for my country.

Oh, Arminius! I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles! I've been where you are, although not solely reliant on Social Security for my income. Is there some way that I can help you out?

I'm a firm believer in the Threefold Law. I think that we're seeing it in action on Wall Street as we speak. I'm just worried about the people that depend on those institutions for their livelihood.

Oh, and we can spend millions to bail out AIG, but we can't get supplies to Houston and Galveston? What's up with that?

Hi, Paganplace,

We have no responsibility for how the world is. I do think we have a responsibility to try to make it better.

Yes, anger out of control, going to the dark side of the force. We all know about Spidey. Anger must be put behind us, or at least channeled forwards.

I, as a Christian, do have a cross to bear. That is mine by my choice, and it is for me alone. It ain't easy, even though the words are truly said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." It's not the weight of it, it is the path. But the key word here is 'joy', not 'happiness', if you can put your mind around that. I think you might.

Ah, sooner or later we all bury each other, I suppose, Arminius. This is part of our life together, too, one we'd best get used to.

Especially because 'Everyone's a critic.' ;)

You have a right to be angry. Gods know a lot of people do.

One little bit of legacy programming I seem to have picked up in a Catholic upbringing is an exaggerated sense of responsibility for how the world is, and from there, I'm sorry I never found anyone whose behind I could personally kick and make things work out.

Learned about anger, though... If you ain't planning on using it to protect self or others in the next sixty seconds, ground and center, feel it, and breathe it till you feel clear. Don't put it somewhere in your body like you can put a lid on an 'unacceptable' emotion.

Anger's a real emotion. But when it stands still, it can turn to hate, internalized or externalized. Putting off feeling it 'leads to the Dark Side.' Not feeling it in the first place.

Breathe with it and look what you have to work with.

These things and balance sheets are *not you.*

This isn't a 'Cross to bear,' it's firewood. Or put a bunch of em together, and you could make a nice barn.

Capiche?

That 'bury my critics' statement by me was much too harsh. I retract it. Sorry.

Victoria,

Well, well. Since, after two periods of unemployment, due to lack of work and the inability of the aged to find work (unless they are CEOs), I am undergoing foreclosure and bankruptcy. My only income is Social Security. I guess I can qualify for your "honest integration of harmony with the resources of the world."

I ain't exactly happy with that situation. But by damn I will live with it and bury my critics.

"Do you eschew credit and live within your means?"

Yes, actually. Though in this economy this does have severe drawbacks. Like if you're forced to be more or less on your own, when you're out of money, that's it. Zip, zero, nada, there's no more. It's often been an effort of years only to gather tools and materials for some trade within my physical means to be useful for, often only to find that the particular living situation I'd finagled collapsing cause of the larger economy.

A micro-loan here or there actually would have probably had me doing something productive instead of cutting into food and medicine and other necessities for years on end, just to try and bootstrap a future.

Credit in some forms ...can pay dividends for society beyond just treating people as 'human capital' or 'human liabilities.'

"Then you are wrking towards an honest integration of harmony with the resources of the world."

That's the plan, Victoria. :)

Anyway. A bit of a lecture below, but maybe I can help put it in context here:

Gwen:

"This pagan vision is as idealistic as that of those who believe businesses need no regulation - that they will simply be ethical on their own."

Actually, it's less cynical than the notion that only the wealthiest know how to define and dictate life for everyone else, yes.

Pagan 'Morality' is in fact based on and a natural extension of *the Pagan ethics,* and not the other way around.

It looks like chaos to those of an authoritarian mindset. It really does. Partly that is because it's a *process,* not a *product.* You can't buy a book of Pagan Moral Rules For Life, and then try to develop 'ethics' to try and make practice meet theory.

The 'theory' is in effect, what we think we've learned about the practice, ...of some very simple things.

In American Wiccan terms, (There are other terms, quite often to the same effect) these things come from the very simple notion that "If It Harms None, Do What You Will," and, basically, "What you do returns threefold,"
or as I like to say, "Things snowball, for good or ill."

The first one, the 'eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill' isn't as commonly-read, one that says 'Do no harm,' ...it actually is an exhortation to both freedom and responsibility. It puts *value* on not doing harm, but more importantly places responsibility on each of us for what we do in a context of freedom.

The second is about paying attention to the effects of your actions, ...which practice teaches us about the interconnectedness Starhawk speaks of. If you 'send out' competition and selfishness, that's the word you'll live in.

Living these things'll pretty much teach you what we call our community values, or Pagan morality, if you will.

That whole practice of magic thing that people love to mock according to their Faustian assumptions, really isn't about spooky factors or super-powers or whatever popular fictions and defamations like to say: It's about, first and foremost, taking your intentions and perceptions and power in this world *in hand,* in all senses, whether or not anything spectacular happens.

Magic's just a pretty direct track to learning about these things, ...and in regards to the nonsense about it CCNL likes to spout like it's *us* he's slagging on, I like to relate my favorite urban legend.

The notion of this legend is that the 'psychics' in a government 'Remote Observer' program, actually in fact learned a form of middle-world seership. But in the process, because of what they saw, also learned that they should refuse to use it for the purposes the military had in mind.

Who cares if it happened, it's a good story that teaches something about this 'witchcraft' so many fear or mock:

One thing that people don't tend to understand is that the kind of consciousness *required* for more than charlatanry, pretty much changes *everything,* including what you may have thought 'the magic' would be used for...

For the most part, the important thing is about teaching onesself to 'perfect your intentions,' and through paying attention to such things, well, you don't get a monolithic unity of opinion, but certainly a set of shared values that aren't so at odds with what most people really feel life in this world is *about,* if you strip away the varying ideologies about how to get it.

Starhawk's not talking about something like, 'Hey, let's all be hippie commies,' ...actually she's talking about really paying attention to the effects of our actions, and what we really *can* do if we get *really* inventive and considerate.

If you don't think much of the power of 'hugs,' well, what if they had a 'culture war' and nobody came? What if.... The greedy and self-righteous became *irrelevant* unless they did something positive?

To quote a Metallica song a friend really liked, 'Where's your crown, King Nothing?'

We got lovely stuff, here in the modern world, let me tell you. We just *haven't gotten together and organized it.*

Got people sitting in traffic for four hours a day in four hundred horsepower cars on clogged roads so they can drive to the health club after work and pay someone else to mow their lawns.

Does that make sense to you?

We love talking about cars. Americans love cars. *I* love cars. But they've become mere *symbols* of a freedom that has turned into chains and alienations and bitter salves against the material reality that we don't *live* with people we care about, or *work* in the same world or *play* with our neighbors... Because we don't organize.

We can do better.

We stand where we are and we do the next thing.

The impossible... That'll come if we take the necessary steps, each in their own time. *Use* our diversity instead of just competing and fighting among it and hoping one day we'll all be the same and that'll make things magically-better.

"This temple that is built so well
To separate us from ourselves
Is a power grown beyond control,
A will without a face..."

-New Model Army.

This is as vague as a politicians campaign promises.
Do you benefit from credit in flush times?
Then you are part of the problem.
Do you eschew credit and live within your means?
Then you are wrking towards an honest integration of harmony with the resources of the world.

"Where are those Wiccan spells for re-energizing my portfolios??"

I'm still working on that one, as I watch my 401K turn into a 200.5K. Just keep thinking "long term... long term... long term..."

But Starhawk is right - we are all interconnected. It's the Butterfly Effect for economics, or pulling on a spiderweb. The effects are multiplied the further you get from the original act.

No joke, Ted. Though it may come as a surprise to those who like to claim Pagans represent hedonistic materialism.

And, Gwen, valid questions, in a way, though Starhawk *really* isn't talking about anything so radical as you seem to be imagining. Obviously she's speaking in as broad of strokes as anyone, but the major point *is* that the only way to reward productivity isn't in everyone being supposed to compete to be one of the lucky few who are as rich as Croesus by damaging the world for exploitable others.

A Pagan view of the world incorporating such notions of interconnectedness and responsibility *doesn't* mean there aren't material rewards for hard work and inventiveness, though *excess at the expense of others* isn't considered very rewarding to begin with, and there's a point past which the resources put into competition under the way things have been going in recent decades particularly where the competition is not on the basis of hard work and inventiveness, so much as competition between balance sheets and investors who do no real work themselves.

Somewhere along the line, for instance, those who hold a lot of wealth from unsustainable technologies, like the oil and auto industries, for instance, started finding their bread was buttered, not on the side of beneficial and inventive solutions to oncoming challenges to people's lifestyles and futures, but by using their great wealth to advertise unsustainable products and block, if not buy and sit on, more sustainable technologies... not to mention essentially *killing* public transportation. Once, almost every town of any decent size had a trolley system, for instance. Gone. Why? Profits for the same people who kept advertising SUVs and more-powerful engines, when everyone knew gas prices were destined to shoot up.

Nothing says that a society has to allow the very richest to hold the rest of us back to protect their excesses from each other. This doesn't mean you can't have capitalism, but capitalism doesn't *have* to mean utter unchecked irresponsibility.

Certainly, a modern Pagan view of the world tends to be more community-focused than individualist, with every family set against every other in a way. It's pretty darn unlikely everyone's going to convert to Paganism, of course, and if they did, at a fell swoop, we'd have pretty much the same things as we have now with somewhat different labels.

We don't make claims that our ways are for everyone. Anyone, maybe. But there's a distinction, there. Certainly, though, we've learned a lot of things in our communities about sharing and sustainable ways to make life better, that maybe our nation could make some use of.

In America, at least, we're very American about a lot of things, believing in a balance of freedom and social responsibility, and these things don't have to be set against each other in ways the dualistically-minded tend to assume.

"You're joking, right?" someone says.

Certain assumptions are so ingrained in mainstream society that a lot of the *possibilities* are just that *foreign* to people, even if they aren't that different from the 'good old days' conservatives like to hearken back to, just *using* some of this wonderful tech and prosperity that has been so expensive for our world to develop.

Even all this information technology could be turned to another purposes than simply to make profit-making and advertising more pervasive.

Your questions are reasonable, Gwen, though a bit of a tall order to answer in a place like this.

But don't underestimate the power of 'hugs,' either. What do you imagine people are *really* looking for when they try to impress each other with excessive displays of bling and material things.

Status within our community tends to come of merit, not wealth. And maybe wealth is pretty often a matter of what one can share. (Maybe in part this is because our ways don't seem to attract those first and foremost concerned with personal wealth and status in the larger society: the mainstream religion provides a lot of advantages to social climbers and old-boys' networks which being openly Pagan deprives one of, and for that matter, the mainstream religion provides the wealthiest with an 'escape clause' from responsibility for the effects of one's actions in life, which one doesn't even expect to be around to live with in another life, ...if not actually treating excessive wealth as a sign of the 'moral superiority' of the 'Elect' and to be gained at all costs.
What's not to love, there?

Anyway, in our community, we have a *lot* of folks who know a lot about how to make the most of what's available. One thing that always strikes me is that in the competitive job market, I can't even staff a 7-11, not for long, anyway, thanks to some health problems, but in communities I've been privileged to be part of, I've been able to put a pretty broad range of skills to use, and been respected for them, and able to make things better for people who on their own individually would be living on credit cards and trying to make ends meet.

Not that it's always easy, but it does beat the heck out of living as if the only way to have a good life is to compete for status and comfort and security in a context where all of these things must be bought through money.

One thing I've learned in a life often relying on the 'shadow economy' and the city tribes is, there are a *lot* of folks like me out here, can't quite make it in the individualistic world, but absolutely full of untapped usefulness. Right there in your community, too.

Which is an important point, ....sending all the community's wealth to Wall Street so someone can make money off it selling our jobs overseas, then complaining about 'work ethics' doesn't make sense to us.

People actually *want* to work, deep down. Want to be useful. They feel *guilty* over their excesses, in fact, unless they've gone completely sociopathic or rationalize their behavior as 'for God's Plan,' or whatever.

And the real problem isn't 'How are you going to reward people without promising empty excess,' it's more like, 'Why don't we reward *sharing?*'

Why is that idea a 'Joke?'

Who taught you *that?*

This is a joke, isn't it?

How will you reward hard work and inventiveness, based on this pagan moral code, if people are restricted from acquiring more until everyone has enough? More hugs for the hard-working and productive members of society? What is their incentive to keep being productive, if they're not interested in working for the sake of others? I'm too cynical, I guess, to believe that could ever happen.
This pagan vision is as idealistic as that of those who believe businesses need no regulation - that they will simply be ethical on their own. Ideally, they wouldn't, but realistically, they do.
I think in the end, it all boils down to ethics, not just morality - which always contains an element of self-righteousness - and certainly not politics.

Wow this Wiccan Web stuff is great. Where are those Wiccan spells for re-energizing my portfolios?? Might the Energizer Bunny be a better bet???

Star Stuff

My light is fading
I have been shooting
Now I am shot
Good things must begin
Good things must end
In between there is hope
A difference it makes
To others only for others
The stars do not change
Love never changes
Hope is a great light
Day and Night
I have reached for the stars
I have reached the end
Others have a long way to go
Before we get home
Hope is always alive
Love always finds the way
The way home
I go off for good alone
Should their future be great
They have a long way to go
Not as I went
They should never be alone
I loved them forever
They should know
Some things can not be
Everything

By: Me

Starhawk,

This is exactly what more people need to hear.

My question is, when will people get out of the 'gossip' mode of politics and realize that this election is not about who looks the best or who they'd rather 'have a beer with' but it's the guy who is going to actually have the average person's best needs at heart? Given the way intelligence at all is now looked upon as somehow 'elite', I won't hold my breath.

But maybe this will shake people out of their complacency. One can only hope.

One door closes on the past and another door opens to a new future. I'm a believer in natural order, so when something is out of order it takes the path of least resistance. A star burns bright and another star is born, while some stars fall. All the stars can't fall all at once. I found great love and decided that if it was true now, it would always be true so why rush things. People are in a hurry. You can't have too much of a good thing and there's no such thing as too much love. Money is a different matter, it can complicate things and losses can be a heart breaking reality. If you have love, you can never lose it and money is something you can gain and lose. People buy lottery tickets and lose millions of dollars in hope of gaining ground. It seems like the entire stock market has become a lottery and there are few gains and many losses. The wheel of fortune always favors love. Round and round it goes, it never stops though. Behind every great fortune there is love. I wasn't born wealthy, I was born in the USA though so anything is possible. My mission is mine and mine alone. It would be better to have somebody to share it with, but I just don't think that is possible. The important thing is that it is all possible for who I love and for those important to her, so that their dreams all do come true. Mine never do, so I guess I'm better at making them up than I am at living them. I'm living the rough life and it's no way for a family to live. I'm catching hell for it and without a doubt will be catching more hell for it. In the end I might even end up going to hell. If it means others are saved and they have a better time of it, then that's the price I'll have to pay. Some have it better and some have it worse for richer or poorer. I just have it rough, so I'll keep roughing it and living it. I hope all your dreams do come true, for love is never false. Love conquers all and all of nature is full of love. Money will continue to be the medium of exchange as long as there are printing presses and people to run them. It's not looking so good with the computers, so print this and save it for later. Don't be tough on each other, it's only money and people are still more important than that. Your dreams are your passion and they should always be your source of inspiration from generation to generation. That's why you are so special and that's why this country is what it is today. The next generation gets it all and it all starts all over again. It regenerates the same as nature does, that's just human nature and no act of terrorism or hat can stop the long-term process of life. The cycle keeps turning.

I agree and very well said!!

Thing that has really gotten to me through the Bush administration are the lies that have been fed to the American people about the economy. So many have fallen for those lies and I do hope that we can all work together to change our current circumstances.

www.simpleabnormality.com

Hear, hear, Starhawk!