Pagan Values and Politics

I think trends show CCNL will continue to troll and be confused. :)

Predictions for the next four years in no special order:

- US taxpayer investments in banks, brokerages and the auto industry will help pay off the national debt.

- President Obama and his family will become “Crossanized” Christians.

- Religions will continue to converge and be downsized as historical/archeological analyses, common sense and reality spreads amongst the “pew sitters and bowers”.

- The killing rate of womb-babies in the USA will remain at one million/yr but the rate will become more difficult to ascertain as RU-486 becomes more available without prescription.

- The rate of STDs/yr in the USA will remain constant at 19 million per year.

- Oil prices will moderate as the world turns more towards nuclear, wind/wave power and natural gas to generate energy.

- The globe will continue to get a bit hotter not because of green house gases but because of the small by continuing increase in the size of the Sun which will consume the Earth in about four billion years.

- Governments will become more dominated by the people as e-mails to Senators and Representatives become the driving force for Congressional voting.

Hoohoo! And that looks like it! Blessed be, and, hail Liberty! America!

" themoderate

"Why Pagan Place dear. Kindly good humor?"

Hey, just cause you get the rough side of my tongue a lot doesn't mean that's all there is. :)

Why Pagan Place dear. Kindly good humor?

*waving hand slowly to 'Pagan Place':

"You've taken your first step into a larger world..."

Nothing going on here... now that's a disgrace
So how did you like that old Pagan Place

And does her good humor 'bout Druids and 'Droids
Not make you smile with humor enjoyed?

Pagan Post

Since only one party can represent God
Wouldn't you think that it's really odd

That all of the people with some points of view
Continue existing without much ado

And if there's one party that is loved by God
Which one will she choose to do the best job?

And can the old druids begin to be seen
If that God's party is really the greens?

Ah, Farnaz, thanks. I suppose this newfound interest in astonomy on CCNL's part is to be encouraged. Fascinating subject. :)

As for Pseudo's poem, I suppose even by thois standard:

"Perhaps it can be that God can abide
More than one party on human kind's side?"

Well, this election offers an opportunity to *vote* on that sentiment, since one party claims only it represents God, and Obama is ready to represent *all* Americans.

Democrats get a bad rap for doing it, but it does seem to be the case.

Starhawk et al in the night sky???

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap081031.html

"I'm not in the habit of clicking on random links posted by trolls in support of no particular assertion, Farnaz, ....dare I ask what that was? :)"

'Tis the eastern veil nebula, from which CCNL drifted slowly to earth.

Pseudo!

You have returned! Surely, it is Karma, for this very moment, I longed for your inspired verse, and here it is. Magnificent, as always.

Farnaz

*waving hand slowly to 'themoderate'

These aren't the Druids you're looking for...

Move along... :)

What a question

A reason religious that will make me vote
For one or the other that you all can quote?

Is there a reason for this one or that?
Does Silly think God wears an election hat?

Perhaps it can be that God can abide
More than one party on human kind's side?

Perhaps Silly Sally can stir up a fight
Especially since she gets nothing just right.

Yawn. Nothing going on here...

Just a troll or two.

I'm not in the habit of clicking on random links posted by trolls in support of no particular assertion, Farnaz, ....dare I ask what that was? :)

Finally a real "witch"!!!

See http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap081101.html

Bagel,

Followed your link. Lovely place, your home. Aren't you anxious to get back there?

Bon Voyage...

Hi, Vie. Long time, no see. :)

I dunno, there, L.Kurt was just totally off base, there. Must have been trying to defend some kind of preconception against inconvenient facts.

Seems to be a fair bit of that going around just lately, actually... the GOP's tactics and assertions have long since departed from the reality of the situation.

Maybe in the end, there'll be something for them to have learned, by the observation that the Mccain of 2000, rather than the panderer and smearer and fearmongerer he's become, would have had better chances.

OK, you guys might already have resolved this, but here's my two cents. Kurt, I know from your comments here and elsewhere that you have a good and loving spirit. Culturally, though, you seem to have bought into the exclusivist thought processes of evangelical Christianity. If Starhawk says "Pagans believe in A" she isn't saying "Pagans and no one else."

Lepi, the faith-based thing worries me a little as well. I am hoping that Obama's embrace of the concept of faith-based community service means that he will be more likely to allocate funds based on a program's effectiveness rather than adherence to a specific brand of Chritiantity. So maybe Islamic, Buddhist and other organizations will be able to participate.

" themoderate Author Profile Page:

Yawn. Nothing going on here...

Just a troll or two.

October 31, 2008 8:29 PM"

You were expecting, perhaps, a bunch of Pagans to spend our most solemn holiday arguing with you? :)

Yawn. Nothing going on here...

Just a troll or two.

lepidopteryx,

You are correct. A restatement:

Eliminate the paranormal in all religions/cults and there will be a rapid convergence of what few beliefs are left.

Well, Cab, Obama rightly voted against the Iraq war itself, but we didn't get our way, there. That done, you can't have troops out there without the right stuff to protect them and do the job. I see no contradiction, there.

Can't stay long tonight, Samhain, and all, and sundown's going to start creeping up on me soon.

So, Sahmain blessings, all! :)

CAB91 :”Just what does he believe in? What does he stand for? At no time during this excruciatingly prolonged campaign is anyone exactly sure what he believes in or where he stands. The Democratic Party has backed a candidate who is an object for people’s fantasies.”

Dear CAB, I will give you full credit for throwing some reality into the mix. If anyone suffers from “irrational exuberance” it’s us Pagan types. I’m working on a new moniker myself—Post-Modern Mystics or PMMs.

Barack Obama traveled from being a little known but extraordinarily gifted orator to becoming the standard bearer for the Democratic Party. As I said from the get-go, I do not anticipate that Barack Obama will be able to wave a magic wand over the culture of corruption that is the Government of the United States as it now stands. But I can dream, can't I?

If Barack Obama’s campaign has been misleading, the Republican party’s campaign has been mind-blowingly toxic. I’ll end this mini-diatribe with two words that ought to serve as a definitive summation: President Palin.

CCNL:
Eliminate the paranormal in all religions/cults and there will be a rapid convergence of said beliefs.
****************************************************************************************************
That's one of the few things you've said that I can agree with, although I don't think you meant it quite the way I see it.
A very wise friend of mine once said, "When you strip away all the theo(a)logical details, and all the denominational bs, all religions boil down to two basic ideas. One - you are part of something bigger than yourself, whether you call it God, Goddess, Universe, Oversoul, collective unconscious, community, or Hey You. Two - be nice to each other. If we could all keep those two ideas inmind with everything we say and do, the rest would take care of itself." FWIW, my friend is a UU and a Witch.

"So we have a religious reason to vote for the candidate who has conducted his or her campaign with integrity, who tells us what they stand for and believe in, not just what they are against, who critiques their opponent's deeds, who does not stoop to innuendos and slurs."

I don't know who you're voting for but that's not Barack Obama.

He has not conducted his campaign with integrity. He has allowed his surrogates to smear his opponent during the primaries. Members of the Congressional Black Caucus were threatened with primary opponents if they did not support him. He has leveled some questionable charges himself. He cut his political teeth in the Chicago machine, where integrity is in short supply.

Would a person of integrity consistently vote to fund the war (with one exception), or shred the Constitution's 4th Amendment protections by supporting FISA?

Just what does he believe in? What does he stand for? At no time during this excruciatingly prolonged campaign is anyone exactly sure what he believes in or where he stands. The Democratic Party has backed a candidate who is an object for people’s fantasies.

It's nice to know that Pagans believe so many virtuous things but your rationale for voting for Barack Obama is sorely lacking because nowhere do you explain just how he exemplifies these virtues.

The word "pagan" in the contemporary world invokes visions of goddesses, witchcraft, spells, voodoo, hoodooing, black magic, vampires, werewolves, and/or devil worship. This puts paganism in the realm of the paranormal just as resurrection of dead bodies and "pretty wingie thingies" put Christianity in the realm of other paranormal beliefs. Eliminate the paranormal in all religions/cults and there will be a rapid convergence of said beliefs.

I mean, hey, CCNL, I dunno, why should they 'worry about us?'

Since when was America *about* 'eorrying about' someone elses religion?

Is that what we've come to?

I may be a tad biased here, but I think we might be *great* folks to *listen* to. Cause we don't take stupid assumptins for granted, cause we *aren't* a 'bloc,' or a 'machine,'

And unlike, say, Palin, we don't expect jesus to beam us away from the effects of what we do today.

Most of us, in fact, expect to *live in* the effects of what we do today.

And we *love* America.

One could do worse than listen to us, 'few' as we may be in numbers.

We remember some things.

CCNL, your numbers seem to come from an ad site by an ad site whose latest, yet still unattributed data appears to be from 2002:

The recent 'religious identification survey' put our numbers at about a million despite real and present reasons for most of us to either not respond to such surveys, or for people asking 'Do you believe in God' to get utterly random results cause the question makes no real sense to us. :)

There are, I think it's safe to say, roughly a million Pagans in America.

It may look small in percentage points, in a nation of some 300 million, but, ...That's still a *lot* of people.

Enough to be humans with unalienable rights in the United States of America?

There are more Pagans than Muslims and all smaller groups *combined* in the military, yet our servicemembers don't get to have any chaplains at all for some funny reason.

What do you want us to do, breed more?

"So should the Democrats and Republicans really worry about the Pagan voting machine/bloc???"

Machine? Bloc? Who said you had to be either to have a voice or rights in America?

Neither should *worry* about us, but only one party seems to think we are equal Americans, with freedom of religion.

And that should be of concern to *all* Americans. Cause, if someone took away your freedom of religion, it's not gonna be the comfy majority that notices first. Till they go looking for it one day and find they lost it.

McCain said insistently that the nation has a 'Judeo Christian' heritage to honor, (till Lieberman was no longer a potential VP) Obama says freedom of religion is for *all.*

Should they *worry?* No worries. Except that the President of the Unites States is being elected to represent *all* of us in America, not just those who try to make electoral hay by defaming a smaller population, however you spin the percentages.

No, no Pagan in their right mind ought to vote for a party that *thinks* our religious rights are based on majorities, if they value our liberty, but be that as it may.

Both candidates *should* 'worry' about what Pagans think. You know why? We're not only both fully and deeply, and intimately connected to the promise and guarantees of America and her Constitution, ...but we're the *first* ones to feel it when government is tempted to take the easy and theocratic way out.

The very first.

It's like the difference between involvement in America, and commitment to America.

It's like a ham and egg breakfast.

The chicken, (that's the majority religions) ....is involved...

The pig... (That's we, the Pagans)

...is committed.

We're committed to American values, cause if distorted, theocratic, Palinesque ones supplant our rights and liberties and even the very informed consent of the governed...

Well, let's just say there's a little more at 'stake' for us.

The historic Adam and Eve were obviously pagan. We therefore thank the pagans for this initial start down the evolutionary road now 60,000 years long to a set of rules embodied in the one statement, "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself".

The Pagan population in the US is about 0.2%. The Wicca/Druid/ population is part of that and is estimated to be about 0.1%.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html and other sites

So should the Democrats and Republicans really worry about the Pagan voting machine/bloc???

Plus Sarah P. has already been protected from witchcraft :))

*flop* *You're* exhausted, try priestessing. Just spent the evening with a blue-collar depressed friend that I *think* is beginning to sense there won't be a Bush to blame any more. 'Oh, it's sucked so long, this sucks, I suck, everone sucks, they all suck the same...'

I'm like, I told you this was going to suck, now you're like 'Joe The Plumber,' only without the Keating 5 funding. '

When faced with the depression of certain of our blue-collar workers, in these last few days of voter-depression tactics and general smearing, this is not even about the 'audacity of hope' for me,

...After all these years, this could be The Sheer F'n Defiant *Pique* of Hope.

The General It's Been Fun Screaming But I Must Vote Now *Wednesday Addams sarcastic deadpan* of Hope.

Whatever it takes.

Hope, people! Dammit! :)

I've seen firsthand how easily someone can be thrown away in this country just for being ill.

Ended up taking care of someone who became a dear friend and teacher when he had no place to go.
Even now the government is forcing him to pay for his own Medicare which he shouldn't have to pay for.

Watching him in pain and knowing I couldn't take that away was bad enough, but having to deal with folks trying to kick away his insurance when doing so would be a death sentence just burned me up.

Paganplace,

Damnit, friend, you not only exhaust me, you make me weep. Hell, and I thought I had troubles! Hang in there, Lady, I wish I had your courage.

Thanks paganplace- I know what its like to have the residual health problems and no health insurance. I hope things get better. What you went through sounds far more frightening than anything I faced. Had I known you, you would have had a place to stay.

Hear you about the credit cards. At one point the card company started calling my neighbors. Unfortunately for them, one of them turned out to be a sweetheart of a guy who was also an Assistant DA for the City of NY. He gave them hell. It jsut seems we've gone into police state mode- I blame the datamining companies who feel they have to track down the minutia of outr lives so they can sell the information to anyone and everyone. You don't fit their criteria, you don't belong. I try to stay under the radar as much as I can but in this day and age they can spot what nostril you breathe through from one minute to the next.

Internet trolls: Dragging Unwanted Sentiments Out From the Conservative Unconscious Since 1994. :)

"kengelhart the troll has transferred over to Shriver's blog, and is starting to raise merry hell. Be glad to be rid of the bastard."

Hello Arminius,

How wonderfully direct and apt of you!

I mean, just to get to economic views, having been homeless is oddly worse than being an ex-con. At least ex-cons can account for their time, and say, 'I found Jeezus,' and get a leg up.

Otherwise, it doesn't matter that you never broke the law or can do a lot of things.... Same 'credit agencies' that got you in this mess decide where and how you get to live.. And nobody seems to know.

Yeah, good going, Sparrow. Frankly, lingering health issues aside, I'm *still* pretty screwed in the mainstream economy, health issues aside, just *because* I was once homeless, and, umm, well, actually had need of *hiding* from some people who for some mysterious reason thought everyone was going to some Christian Hell if I weren't re-converted and turned straight immediately.

Hard enough when you can't keep up a work-week at the 7-11, it was actually credit agencies that insisted my legally-recognized by the US Government-identity was a fraud, ...you can legally change your name, easily enough, but the *credit* agencies would demand a premium to not tell every potential employer your US government ID was a fraud.

Too many people end up outside, not only the supposed benificent supports of churches, but the ability to have a legit job of itself, because you might get turned out over religion, and *credit* agencies might be demanding protection money you don't have. Screwed-up circumstances happen, and combining a bad break, prejudice, and lack of health care can turn out to be a double-whammy, that's just being queer and Pagan, and if you're not white, forget about it. You're a ghost.

McCain will go on calling the 'Invisible Hand of the Market' one and the same with his God.

I may not think I'm *better* than L. Kurt, may not think I'm superhuman, but at least I know what various policies *do.*

And at least I lived to tell.

Mostly.

I mean, one thing that a lot of people don't *get* about the 'credit crisis' is that these institutions have long since become the arbiters of who *is* a human citizen of the United States Of America.

There are still three big credit-repoting agencies in America.

Everyone consults two out of the three at least in order to determine if you can have a job or housing.

Ever try and fill in a job or any other kind of application for 'I was homeless for this time?'

You might find that certain 'free hands of the market' have more say about how 'human' you are than does your US citizenship.

I went through a really bad patch about 15 years ago where i went through a divorce, had several emergency major surgeries, lost my job- everything fell apart. And I found there were some people in my own family who thought I could just pick myself up and pull myself out of the hold my life has become. It took me over 10 years- there were times I had maybe 5 dollars to my name, but I did have a very understanding landlady and I picked up work doing freelance sewing until I started getting back on my feet again.

I have a twin sister who has never been on her own, has never lived without someone bringing in money- we would do the hi end juried craft shows and sell my work. I had to beg to take some money from the sales so I could buy food- that's how little someone who has never gone without understands. And she's a Democrat. So imagine how much worse it is with the rich and privileged.

Posted on October 30, 2008 15:48

mokey2 :
Anyway, back to a question I was wondering about-

If the 'Faith Based initiatives' were turned into an office of 'Interfaith Based initiatives that supported groups that promoted real interfaith communication/cooperation with folks of all or no faith, would you support it?
****************************************************************************************************
I think that interfaith co-operatives working on social justice issues are a good thing - I've been part of more than a few, and have seen just how much good they can do when the focus is on solving the right-here-right-now problems and not evangelizing. I just get nervous when government gets financially involved with faith-based programs because it opens up some rather distasteful possibilities: one - churches becoming dependent on government funding for their programs, which is ultimately the responsibility of the church; two - government expecting churches to take over the job of solving social justice problems that are beyond their scope; three - certain groups receiving preferential treatment in terms of support for their programs. Perhaps I'm a bit paranoid because I have seen how a certain mega-church located in my community is given control of local roads on Sunday mornings to the point of local cops placing barricades on a four-lane highway, stopping all traffic on both sides to allow the church to empty its parking lots after their early service before refilling them for the next service.

PAGANPLACE: "I don't think conservative ideology really understands that the poor aren't just capitalists waiting to be blessd with a 'work ethic.' Poor conditions *blunt* you. They take their toll."

Check.

I'm lucky to have inherited a first-class immune system and the ability to be "morally superior" [please note 'ironic' use of quotes] enough to thrive on a vegetarian diet. In any case, if you're a smart & lucky 'FNB Shopper', you can always take home some chi-chi bakery products and other high-end cast offs to supplement whatever else your body requires, all without mussing up your knees, a situation that might happen if the 'faith-based charity' forces you to 'assume the position.' Better still, you can be "all three," get fed, maintain your dignity and do some real good.

Food Not Bombs understands [just as Barack Obama understands] that rotten political decisions—like the decision to pump 11 billion a month into a unnecessary war—have a mammoth impact on the health of the population in general. And FNBer's tend to be the type that willingly ameliorate the homeless condition if one is willing to offer up some elbow grease for the cause [and not act tooo crazy, a common un-occupational hazard]. I spent three months in Judy Foster's basement sleeping on a mattress next to 50 lb. bags of beans and rice, little bags of condoms, fliers for the San Francisco Mime Troupe and other left-wing paraphernalia. Wonderful lady, wonderful cause.

Paganplace sez,

Hey, Arminius, I can't bring a bit of Merry Hel to a Troll that is 'having fun' with various assertions, I didn't just do a turn with some Asatruar. ;)

Er... um... ya has exhausted me once again... (collapsing... mutters feebly...) 'Asatruar...?'

Hey, Arminius, I can't bring a bit of Merry Hel to a Troll that is 'having fun' with various assertions, I didn't just do a turn with some Asatruar. ;)

Have fun. :)

kengelhart the troll has transferred over to Shriver's blog, and is starting to raise merry hell. Be glad to be rid of the bastard.

"Or maybe even all three—Yes, I've been there! Which is definitely another reason I love Food Not Bombs so much."

Good folks, Food Not Bombs. Last I saw of em from the receiving end, they would maybe have some vegetation for you to eat, if you had a kitchen, when I seem to have inherited one of those metabolisms that could probably live happily on yak milk and the occasional tap of an artery, but drops into low-res 'safe mode' after a few days on garbanzo beans. :)

Actually a lot of my health issues of today probably wouldn't exist if not for a prolonged period of malnutrition. half a clue about autoimmune issues, PTSD, or at some points, even a course of antibiotics. I somehow survived, but, only in retrospect do I realize that the over-the-counter substitute for a proper athsma inhaler that I had to use to keep breathing for a few years probably saved my life (cause those are essentially *rough, raw, and nasty *steroids:* epinephrine, ) even as it shracked a whole number of other things.

I mean, I *learned a lot,* and I *made* it, but, yaknow, it was never fricking necessary, and I met so many others for whom none of the things which meant they didn' fit in Mccain's world were even *necessary.*

I don't think conservative ideology really understands that the poor aren't just capitalists waiting to be blessd with a 'work ethic.' Poor conditions *blunt* you. They take their toll.

It's not waiting for 'Jesus,' it's... maybe holding out with what you can save. To bring back to some future not all by any means ever see.

Dang, ya scared him off!

And I was just about to offer him some of our magickal Kool-Aid.

"There are people in this world who do not loved their fellow man and I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!!"
Tom Lehrer

Paradox—you can beat it with a stick, but why bother? It'll beat you right back.

MOKEY2 :"Anyway, back to a question I was wondering about-

If the 'Faith Based initiatives' were turned into an office of 'Interfaith Based initiatives that supported groups that promoted real interfaith communication/cooperation with folks of all or no faith, would you support it?"

Nope, separation of Church & State. The Deists believed in the inherent separation of this World & God's, like an upright version of "The Crying of Lot 49's" Scurvhamites. Them Foundin' Fathers were, like, rad. The best known religious byproduct of the Deists was Unitarian Universalism, which, as any good Wiccan knows, welcomes weirdos such as me. If you want real interfaith communication/cooperation with folks of all or no faith check out the Unitarians and tell 'em necessity sent ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

PAGANPLACE: "Having been both homeless, Pagan, and a volunteer, at times all at the same time, the fact is that there's always been a certain amount of 'kneel for your supper' involved in a lot of 'faith based charities.' Personally, I'd sooner eat out of the trash than beg that way, it was just one of my limits, but I'd help people if asked."

Or maybe even all three—Yes, I've been there! Which is definitely another reason I love Food Not Bombs so much.

(BTW, food stamps aren't *just* for agribusiness: the reason they come from the *Department of Agriculture* is because they functioned as much to keep small-farms profitable as they did to prevent security-wrecking instability among the 'lower classes.' )

"If the 'Faith Based initiatives' were turned into an office of 'Interfaith Based initiatives that supported groups that promoted real interfaith communication/cooperation with folks of all or no faith, would you support it?"

Well, Mokey, Obama's idea to *actually fund* some stuff, and not treat it just as a way to make Evangelicals feel like they're being 'compassionate' by personally evangelizing to the new waves of dispossessed, while saying it's really right to actually make the poor worse off and make them beg for whatever's left after the reduced kickback to the megachurches gets used mostly to say 'Jesus' a lot, ...well, Obama's idea to make the program both Constitutional and effective, is something that *would* promote interfaith interaction.

Having been both homeless, Pagan, and a volunteer, at times all at the same time, the fact is that there's always been a certain amount of 'kneel for your supper' involved in a lot of 'faith based charities.' Personally, I'd sooner eat out of the trash than beg that way, it was just one of my limits, but I'd help people if asked.

Obama intends to make it both Constitutional, effective, and not make it the bait-and-switch that *actually cuts* services to the poor some four times more than most Evangelical organizations actually end up giving back.

For most of the big operations that ended up getting most of the money, they could have easily under the old system had as much federal funding for *actual services* as they could use, as long as it wasn't used to proselytize, anyway.

But smaller groups always were working on shoestrings *just to get the food out there.*

You'd see situations like queer Pagans helping out nuns who support the same organization that made *us* homeless with the 'doctrines' they enforce, but still, I guess, not having the money to buy correctly straight and Catholic people to get the labor done.

Hel, I had a whole household put in a long day's work, ...just cause not doing so would mean people not being fed, ...but actually being shepherded out of sight when any Christians came along.

Complicated stuff. But even the system that was, a lot of Christans would use to 'promote' the idea that 'Only Christians are 'universal' or 'charitable' enough to be doing anything, unlike, of course, those 'Commie Liberals' who have some odd notion that food stamps aren't an agribusiness subsidy that just happens to feed people better than letting crops rot. :)

kengelhart sez,

"I love all you guys. It's been fun."

I rest my case - a troll.

" kengelhart
"I love all you guys. It's been fun."

Yeah, I've heard that before. Thank you for the chance to, ah, commend you to behaving like you had some kind of verbal comprehension before insistently trying to defame people.

Makes a great practical demonstration about how *one* candidate seeks to cast 'doubt' on the 'real' intentions of one candidate by appealing to people's fear and ignorance, ...cause neither he nor his phenomenally-ill-chosen VP candidate has anything *but* the kind of insistent disinformation you spew going for them.

Speaking of what I said about honesty and substance.

Never understood it, but trolls do seem to have fun.

Neither we, Starhawk, nor the American people, think it's fun or funny anymore, as it turns out.

Where you gonna be, L. Kurt, when we're done laughing at each other?

Anyway, back to a question I was wondering about-

If the 'Faith Based initiatives' were turned into an office of 'Interfaith Based initiatives that supported groups that promoted real interfaith communication/cooperation with folks of all or no faith, would you support it?

" kengelhart

""mokey2 : "This is NOT to say that all should BECOME Pagan.""

"Sure. Only the BEST become Pagan."

Who taught you to assume/project *that?*

You're still conflating 'Pagan' and 'Wiccan' as though either were some authority and then saying we aren't 'universal' enough as the 'exclusivist authority' you falsely claimed Starhawk or any of us might say we *are.*

You're the *only one here* asserting and then projecting some standards of superhumanity, L. Kurt.

We may not claim to be 'The Best,' dude, but, in general we can read.

"At this point, Mokey, I think we're facing the same kind of cognitive disconnect that makes a lot of Fundies think they're being 'oppressed' if the government doesn't enforce their religious tabooes and hurt people enough for their liking."

Probably.. and by doing this he's doing exactly what he accuses Starhawk of doing- assuming some sort of 'superiority' and attributing things to her that are projections of his critiques of everyone else.

I love all you guys. It's been fun.

"But the ones that do end up being violent evangelists of what is right. This is not the business of any isolated group of people. We need to ALL be involved in deciding what is right, together. That is the essence of democracy, and I believe Obama represents that perspective best at this time."

Well we seem to be in agreement about Obama, but equating Wicca with violent evangelists is wrong. For starters, wars have never been started by Wiccans. Wiccans are victims of those violent evangelists and fundamentalists, not perpetrators.

Wicca and paganism are not churches nor do they claim anything proprietary in faith. Again- why are you misreading this? Why are you being hostile over what someone posts as the tenets of their own beliefs? this is what I don't understand from you.

kengelhart is beginning to sound like an internet troll.

"Sure. Only the BEST become Pagan"

Says who? Nobody here said that. Stop putting things in other's mouths. Nobody is telling you to become anything. Pagans actively DON'T proselytize because we don't like it when others do it to us. Why the rudeness?

At this point, Mokey, I think we're facing the same kind of cognitive disconnect that makes a lot of Fundies think they're being 'oppressed' if the government doesn't enforce their religious tabooes and hurt people enough for their liking.

Listen, Kurt.

If Wicca has any claim to calling itself the 'Craft of the Wise,' I can offer no better evidence than to point out that in fact, our clergy *don't want your self-professed *job.* *

Capiche? :)

mokey2 : "This is NOT to say that all should BECOME Pagan."

Sure. Only the BEST become Pagan.

"I am hostile toward churches that seem to project a proprietary interest in specific aspects of faith. Not all churches do this. But the ones that do end up being violent evangelists of what is right. This is not the business of any isolated group of people."

I don't suspect you caught *any* of the extensive typing I and others did this morning to point out that there *is* no 'The Wiccan church,' (if there was, maybe it wouldn't have taken all that effort to get our soldiers in Bush's war a decent burial... apparently he didn't think we're human' either, ) and you're claiming Starhawk is saying things you could see for yourself she *didn't?*

Seeing as how, Kenglehart, again, we have to say THERE IS NO WICCAN CHURCH..

the precepts that Starhawk discusses here, which have nothing to do with a *church* or a feeling of *superiority* or being somehow *not human* happen to be values that are celebrated by the Pagan community. This is NOT to say that all should BECOME Pagan. What part of this do you not understand?

Or:

"" kengelhart

"Paganplace : "Is there a religious reason to vote for or against Obama or McCain?"

""Because of these principles, we seem to have a very good religious reason for voting for Obama.""

Being a mere human and a Pagan both, I make no pretense I could even number the reasons, at this point. :)

sparrow4 : "I am confused about the seeming hostility"

I am hostile toward churches that seem to project a proprietary interest in specific aspects of faith. Not all churches do this. But the ones that do end up being violent evangelists of what is right. This is not the business of any isolated group of people. We need to ALL be involved in deciding what is right, together. That is the essence of democracy, and I believe Obama represents that perspective best at this time.

I mean, you know, not only does this go to the fact that despite McCain going to great lengths to 'seem' like whatever people might be led to believe,
say, as the 'military victory' candidate, despite the fact that the respected generals of our nation actually favor Obama and/or his policies, (as opposed to trying to re-fight Vietnam and 'win' 'Peace With Honor' by continuing to do the wrong things,')

...it does also go to one thing about Wicca, specifically that is *not* something you can impose on everyone.

Radical, ruthless, self-examining honesty. Wicca as a practice, among Paganism or the world, just isn't something you can 'tell everyone to believe,' ...if you want to do it, you gotta want it. Work at it, toward it, *with* it every day of your life, to the full measure your spirit calls you to. It's not exactly a Wiccan world out there, nor, really, does anyone feel it should be.

Doesn't mean we have a copyright on honesty, either, but we not only value it, we seek to *dicipline* ourselves with it, from the fluffiest to the gloweringest 'Traditionalist.'

The Gods don't say you aren't 'human' if you don't practice in that way, or even not Wiccan if you don't claim to have 'believed' something and skipped all the work of *being* human,

...but there is at the core, a deep value of *honesty,* not about what things can be made to *seem,* if one chooses to view things as rival authorities to be 'promoted,' ...not by whatever PR and justification is spread to cast doubt on what we may face, but how these things can be *seen,* and felt and experienced.

By that measure, whatever our political leanings may be, to a Pagan, any Pagan, not just Wiccans, ...honesty. Not just about who can *seem* honest or 'folksy,' Honesty. That's the sine qua non for good and competent leadership,

McCain and Palin are found wanting in this manner. Just trying to repackage the same policies that the GOP has been claiming for years will magically do other than what they are seen to do.

Both candidates may run some negative ads, yes. But one candidate's are about substance, and one's are about feeding into how some 'deniable assets' want to make someone *seem.*

You want to know about Wiccans, well, we know a lot about how things 'seem.'

And whatever it is you think you want that you think you might get out of telling people how things *seem,* (this time, again) ...you will not get it.

Nothing good can come from the 'I say it seems' of those who find benefit in casting dark shadows.

There is substance, there is subtext, and there is honesty.

Telling someone else what to think 'seems' ...insistently, despite refutation and even explanation, ....certainly isn't going to win you support with even the most 'conservative' of Pagans. We do have em. But the most of em ain't *fools.*

You have failed to cite anything that shows that she is presenting some sort of 'elevated' status simply by talking about what the Earth-bound religions hold dear and stating why she is voting the way she is.

There are no claims of 'superiority' here. You're reading something into what *isn't* there.

kengelhart- I know you do. So I am confused about the seeming hostility towards Starhawk. Would you explain ?

Kengelhart somehow claims,

"Starhawk claims herself to be, not human, but Pagan."

THAT is some of the most vile bigotry that I have ever had the misfortune to witness.

I am Christian, and follow the teachings of our Risen Lord, to try to accept all. These Pagans are very good people, forgiving and compassionate. They are my friends.

Paganplace : "Is there a religious reason to vote for or against Obama or McCain?"

Because of these principles, we seem to have a very good religious reason for voting for Obama.

sparrow4 : "But what of all those who declare themselves "Christians", and seem to feel it makes them superior to the rest of us lowly "humans"?"

I have exactly the same criticism of them.

It must be a great failing of mine but I can find not a single place where Starhawk claims to be Pagan and not human.

How you L.Kurt, came to this conclusion I don't know. But what of all those who declare themselves "Christians", and seem to feel it makes them superior to the rest of us lowly "humans"? I notice that many of them are proficient at demonizing everyone else and you're simply trying to play with words to demonize Starhawk because her beliefs are different from you.

But reread what she says- there are no accusations against others- it's a plain statement of what she believes and no commentary on what anyone else does. Paganplace is right- that's something you brought to the conversation and it's too bad really. You're missing the wisdom of her words and the common ground she treads with all of us.

Whoa Nelly! Seems like we managed to fly right off course in the first hour of posting. The question for this series of posts is:

“Is there a religious reason to vote for or against Obama or McCain?”

Starhawk then presents a personal credo as regards the values of “Earth-based Pagan religions” and concludes that Barack Obama appears to share values consistent with her values. No harm, no foul and a three-pointer with nothing but air. Mind you, if you’ve read Margot Adler’s “Drawing Down the Moon” or [better still] actually spent time with living, breathing, self-described “Pagans”, you realize that self-description and actual morals do not necessarily overlap and that "Pagans" are all over the map as regards beliefs & values. I’ve known more than my fair share of Pagans that I’d rather not know. I’d apply same standards to Christians, Jews, Hindus—really any faith.

My mom has a couple of things she says all the time that apply here. One is her constant refrain of “Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?’ The other is “Walk the Talk.” The range of Christian Morality in action runs from Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger on one end to Saint Francis Of Assisi [who would probably make for a pretty good Pagan] and the Reverend Martin Luther King on the other. Starhawk is espousing her beliefs relative to what constitutes a “Earth-based Pagan religion” in her posting, not making any claims of universal beliefs.

Again, Barack Obama’s campaign is about inclusion. Starhawk’s various campaigns—her actions at Livermore Labs, at Holy Names College, her permaculture trainings in New Orleans—are also about inclusion. There is no exceptionalism going here, no claim of an exclusive or singular path to enlightenment. Starhawk simply recognizes that Barack Obama is inclusive and shares her values and that John McCain is divisive and does not share her values.

"Starhawk claims herself to be, not human, but Pagan."

I assure you, L. Kurt, it ain't Pagans who are claiming we aren't human.

I think we see a bit more of the premises you bring to all this. Read again.

" She is promoting these principles as a representative of the Wiccan church."

There is no 'The Wiccan Church,' L. Kurt.

'Promoting principles' is not at question, here. The *question* is, and I quote: "Is there a religious reason to vote for or against Obama or McCain?" Turns out there is, ...there are many, in fact, for Starhawk and most Pagans, even if it's not a matter of 'Goddess sez so.'

Maybe not based on Jesus, but yes, reasons.

" I respect these principles but I deny the right of any church to promote itself by using them."

Listen. If we had any interest in *promoting* anything but the fact we're humans and Americans, and ...as good people with a stake in our democracy, have a view of reality and the current situation that, while you may claim it as 'Universal,' thus not to be espoused by 'non-humans' such as ourselves, ...is in fact *ours* as well as anyone else's that cares to.

I'm beginning to get the impression that you can't even *conceive* of a religion that doesn't have converting everyone else in the world as a priority at all, never mind the overriding one you seem to be basing your assumptions on.

If we didn't think most of humanity *didn't* share a value of what we value, we wouldn't be sitting around here appealing to such values.

Pagans don't have to be Wiccans, but, here. You want to claim to be the source of all goodness in the world, here. Have a gold star. Have an Emmy, roll the credits, just *get er done.*

But, yes, we really *are* humans, sport?

Someone else seems to believe that a religion needs to claim that as something exclusive to them.

To most of my people, among many other cultures wealth isn't defined by what you 'own,' but by what you *share.*

Have some. It's cool. We got plenty. :)

Um, Kurt...

So Pagans are not human?

*trying again*

There is no 'Wiccan church'. She doesn't tell anyone that they 'should' be Pagan or Wiccan (which are two different things). She is not *promoting* anything, merely presenting some generalities that are accepted by the Pagan community.

I'm just not sure how much more I can clarify it for you there, Kurt. If you can't be bothered to read what Starhawk said, or read all these words I just typed, and still try and appeal to some baseless idea of how you'd like it to 'seem' to you...

Well, that's another reason any Pagan would probably be well-advised to vote for Obama. A campaign which tries to make things 'seem' what they are not, as the GOP has been doing with unsubstantiated tactics of trying to make Obama 'seem' threatening, despite what he says and has done, *is not* what a Wiccan would call a good candidate for government.

Wiccans are *deeply* aware of not only what deception does to the subject, but to the deceiver. Nowhere is there a more manifest example of what we call the 'Law of Threefold Return.' To either lie, or believe a lie, the first person one has to deceive is onesself.

It's a dangerous game, that, ...lies distort reality, and tend to compound each other. Detach one from what one is looking at.

And that's no way to run a country.

Are we closer to understanding now, or were you just wanting to bury what I said about our respected generals all favoring Obama or his policies over the 'security' candidate?

Arminius : "The principles that Starhawk put forth so well belong to all humanity. Apparently L. Kurt thinks they are his only."

Starhawk claims herself to be, not human, but Pagan. She is promoting these principles as a representative of the Wiccan church. I respect these principles but I deny the right of any church to promote itself by using them.

Great, L. Kurt.

Though what you *didn't* seem to see is that when I capitalized and quote marked 'For Everyone,' I was pointing out that there's no belief, need, desire, or rationale for Wiccans to make anyone, never mind everyone else Wiccan.

(Which, if you missed this bit when previously accusing us of having no morals, never mind falsely claiming Starhawk is saying ours are exclusive to us ...is a particular, if influential, set of traditions within a far more diverse Pagan movement. For an analogy, it's a bit like 'Wicca is to Catholics as Paganism is to 'Abrahamic monotheists.')

As for claiming, needing, or wanting to be any kind of 'Universal religion,' well...
Foreign concept to us.

Why you seem to find this a problem, or something that disqualifies a Pagan from speaking on what they believe, again, that's nothing Starhawk said, or a Pagan would read into it.

Ergo, that's gotta be something you brought here.

I'm with arminius! If only the Judeo-christian faiths wouldn't run screaming for the exits everytime they hear the words wicca or pagan. there's so much wisdom in her words and nothing that would be out of place in any religion, what she says is so universal.

Paganplace : "Wicca in particular is not 'For Everyone.'"

Yes, I can see that.

L. Kurt:

"Starhawk seems to be claiming principles I feel are universal as belonging exclusively to Paganism and the Wiccan church."

'Seems?' What do you mean 'seems?' She neither says nor implies any exclusion. She says what she feels Pagans believe. She doesn't say no one else values these things.

If you didn't get that before.

" This is a tactic used by many churches to gain political control over "believers." "

By saying we're each our own spiritual authority?

"If Wiccans really feel that universal in their beliefs, they should claim them, like Jesus did, to be universal."

We're not saying *that,* either. Starhawk certainly doesn't.

Wicca in particular is not 'For Everyone,' in the first place. ...for *Anyone,* potentially, ..we do see the things we value, not unlike I said about America, as everyone's birthright. ..that doesn't mean we claim our beliefs as the 'Unique One and Only True Universal Way' or that no one else can and does share what we value.

" Jesus was neither a Jew nor a Christian, by virtue of his beliefs."

For a not-Christian, you sure do seem to be comparing us to Jesus a lot...

"Lep,

"I am somewhat concerned about Obama's view on the Faith Based Initiatives. But at the very least he will send the money in a better direction, i.e., away from the right wingers."

Well, that's the thing. Under Bush it was an excuse to make a net cut in our supports for the poor, and make sympathetic churches feel that they're getting something out of it. They get to feel 'compassionate' while the actual poor get clubbed by the 'conservatism.'

It's supposed to be 'faith and community based initiatives.' What it's *supposed* to be isn't bad, *if* it's kept Constitutional and functional, not an excuse to make an end-run around both. It's not a comfy area for the government to tread, but it can be made more than a giveaway to those who want to use federal money to proselytize at the suffering.

There's actually a lot of good-hearted talent out there, that can do a lot with not too much, that I, for one, have no problem supporting. Just not as a *substitute* for our social obligations.

" As to gay rights - I am sure he will do nothing to stop the movement.
But I wish he would come out publicly for it."

Well, he's for gay rights. Marriage is a little more complex. By the law as the Constitution goes, courts basically *must* rule for full and equal rights for gay couples. That's the justice they're supposed to see.

As for *political* initiatives, well, the popular view right now seems to be that gay couples should have the same rights as straight married people in all respects. This the executive and legislature can do, right now, instead of supporting a minority that wants to see us continue to suffer that way.

No sense in him throwing himself on that sword of 'gay marriage' even if that were what he personally believed. It's not in the description of the job he's running for right now, anyway.

Frankly, though, just in terms of economic stimulus, particularly for small business and real estate, there's nothing like a 'wedding.'

They happen at a certain rate among straights, anyway. Can you imagine the bump to that economy if *everyone who has been denied even civil unions all their lives, no matter how long they've been together* ....suddenly starts booking venues? :)

Anyway, I'm OK with Obama's position among the executive and legislative branches of government. It's the *judiciary's* job to say 'separate but equal' is Unconstitutional.

Paganplace : "No one's stealing anything from your Christianity."

Paganplace, I am not a Christian, and for the last eight years I have been tempted to deny I am an "American." Starhawk seems to be claiming principles I feel are universal as belonging exclusively to Paganism and the Wiccan church. This is a tactic used by many churches to gain political control over "believers." If Wiccans really feel that universal in their beliefs, they should claim them, like Jesus did, to be universal. Jesus was neither a Jew nor a Christian, by virtue of his beliefs.

Well, I think L.Kurt is making an assumption here.

It's that Pagans have a 'church'. If there is one, I haven't seen it. We're way too diversified and spread out for that. Some traditions might, but they don't speak for the rest of Pagans and don't claim to.

The principles that Starhawk outlines here are based on universal values. We just happen to have built a spiritual path on top of them. :)

I understand your concern, Lepi, Arminius about the 'Faith Based Initiatives'. In an ideal world if Obama is elected it should go. But if he decided to keep it, I wouldn't be opposed to an 'Interfaith Based initiave' office that would promote religious communications between people of faith, and those of NO faith, about solving some of the issues we seem to have around treating people with respect who are not like us.

Lep,

I am somewhat concerned about Obama's view on the Faith Based Initiatives. But at the very least he will send the money in a better direction, i.e., away from the right wingers. As to gay rights - I am sure he will do nothing to stop the movement.
But I wish he would come out publicly for it.

Ain't nobody perfect....

Yaknow, L.Kurt?

Pagans definitely *do* tend to prioritize our relationship with the land more deeply than do some major religions, among whom many will emphasize personal salvation and a sort of moralistic hegemony, but the things we value *are* things anyone might naturally value.

For us, if you don't have some kind of good relationship with what keeps life going on, well, you don't have much. Your kids can't eat a plasma TV, especially if your city flooded cause no one saw fit to watch the Discovery channel and figure out your city ought to deal with the inevitable.

No, though, there's not much we value as regards what government should do, that others don't, that I can think of.

We just put em together a little differently.

Some may say that the government should have hands off the doings of the wealthy, and the sufferings of the disadvantaged, but be sure to punish the 'sinners' for our personal lives.

Some say it's just the opposite of *that.*

Some say that the American government should provide for the common defense, promote the *general welfare* and *secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity.*

Some say that the government is part of how we manage our material circumstances, how we 'lift each other up,' not how we make sure to protect the excesses of a few. Part of how we guarantee to each other, as we the people, our individual consciences and a civil and open society.

Some say that government should be chosen based on *competence,* *wisdom,* and *ability to lead and govern,* not who claims to affiliate themselves with the most 'power,' religious, secular, or economic.

That'd be a whole great majority of Pagans, yes. But no one ever said we were alone in this.

Arminius led right off saying that as a Christian, there's nothing to disagree with, there.

That's our America right there. No one's stealing anything from your Christianity, L. Kurt.

These things were *always* the birthright of every single American.

Some Republicans and the Religious Right will tell you different.

But it ain't so.

Arminius,
There is a lot that I do like about Obama. It's just that teh few reservations I have are in areas that, for me, are very high priority.

I like the fact that he is pro-choice.

I like the fact that he wants to get our troops out of Iraq ASAP, and not continue wasting money and lives on this fiasco.

I like the fact that he favors a health care system that would allow all Americans to have access to medical care, but I worry about where the funding for it will come from.

My reservations about Obama stem in part from his statement of intent to expand Shrubya's faith-based initiative programs. The idea of the federal government writing checks to churches, to me, is a blatant violation of the establishment clause, no matter how noble and beneficial the programs funded might be. I would feel that way even if the recipient of funds was my own church. In fact, if my church accepted (or even applied for) funding from the federal government, I would consider that grounds for resigning my membership.

There has been waffling on gay rights issues that worries me that once he's in office, he will not offer the support to BGLT Americans that he promised earlier in the campaign. This is one area where I would love nothing more than to be wrong.

Hi, Paganplace,

The principles that Starhawk put forth so well belong to all humanity. Starhawk knows that, you know it, I know it. Apparently L. Kurt thinks they are his only.

And, L.Kurt:

" kengelhart Author Profile Page:

Starhawk,
I believe it is gives these principles insufficient credit to present them as proprietary to the Pagan church. Even though they may not be widely recognized as such, these principles seem to me to be the fundamentals of universal human religious feeling. To put them in the context of the property of a particular church is to claim ownership of something you could not possibly own."

I see nothing in Starhawk's discussion of what her Pagan morality (and mine) means in this, that claims no one *else* shares these principles.

Project much? ;)

Hi, Lep,

I confess to being mightily puzzled by your problem. But if you can't vote for, by all means vote against. This is what I normally have done - but this election is an exception. I am very much FOR Obama. Whatever you do, don't waste a vote on Nader, the bastard who gave us Bush.

You know, Arminius, I just don't think I could say anything more pertinent than that.

But, Starhawk brought up war and peace. I think everyone interested in peace and diplomacy know Obama's the guy for that, and moreover, so does the *world.* McCain can't get much diplomacy done with his biases and policies and jokes about bombing Iran and all the rest: Obama can and already *has* gained *respect* in the rest of the world as what America's always been *supposed* to be about, after eight years of thinking we've gone utterly *nuts* under Bush and the policies Mccain supported.

As for the business of *war,* though, here's something that doesn't get talked much about here, or even in the media. Obama's got the better war plan. He's the one all the generals endorse. In the debate where McCain was trying to dismissively-smear Obama as incompetent relating to Pakistan and Afghanistan, he exposed a failure to understand the situation in the border reasons, and himself, essentially said he'd give away the store (in the form of lots of money with no conditions) as regards our stance with Pakistan.

(No wonder he misquoted his hero TR: McCain's position on a complicated situation was to bluster loudly, and give away the big stick.)

Basically, while the last thing we want is a failed state in Pakistan (they *do* have a bunch of nukes, unlike the subject of the Iraq diversion) and the current government is friendly to our interests, it's not in *our* interests, or those of the long-term stability of the region to needlessly take certain options off the table, and tempt the Pakistani regime to just take what they're given and worry about short-term political survival, ...complicated stuff in that reason, but basically McCain is no TR, if a TR were called for.

Ask the recently-retired generals, who can speak on candidates: they're for Obama. Ask current ones what strategy they advocate, and who happens to have it.

Is McCain going to be like Bush, arrogantly and mockingly disregard Powell, and just go do what Halliburton wants, too?

Looks too much like it.

McCain's *not* the security and foreign policy candidate. He just thinks he is.

This election year, I find myself with a case of what a good friend of mine refers to as "electile dysfunction" - the inability to become aroused by any of the candidates on the ballot. Of the two major party candidates, I would definitely choose Obama ovr McCain, but there are some aspects of Obama's campaign and platform that bother me. But the thought of a McCain/Palin presidency scares the living daylights out of me. The candidate who actually appeals to my conscience the most is Nader, but realistically speaking, he doesn't stand a chance of actually winning, so a vote for Nader would end up being a vote for McCain. Plus, I fear that Nader's personality is too mercurial to make him an effective leader, even if he did win.

Starhawk articulates so many good reasons to vote for Barack Hussein [“And I got my middle name from somebody who obviously didn't think I'd ever run for president”] Obama that I hardly know where to start, other than that she’s altogether right and don’t forget to vote. I’m under no illusions—Obama is neither the son or God Or Jorel. His presence in the White House will not magically eliminate cronyism and the constant lobbying of the ultra-rich or silence the increasingly rabid right. But, back much further in this presidential race, Starhawk expressed one of the best reasons to vote for Obama:

“. . .FEBRUARY 23, 2008: Obama Casting a Good and Needed Spell

“I’m asking you to believe. Not just in my ability to make real change in Washington…I’m asking you to believe in yours.”

That’s the message on the top of Obama’s website—a message of faith, belief and empowerment. It speaks well, both of him and of us, that his message is receiving such a strong response. . .”

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/starhawk/2008/02/on_barak_obama_and_religion.html

The neo-con thrashing at the end of this election cycle, as their cancer-ridden claw refuses to let go of the power they deliberately stole from the American electorate, is all about division—racial division, class division. But from the very start, Barak Obama’s campaign was about empowerment. Here are a few of Senator Obama’s words on this:

“When I hear that we'll never overcome the racial divide in our politics, I think about that Republican woman who used to work for Strom Thurmond, who is now devoted to educating inner city-children and who went out into the streets of South Carolina and knocked on doors for this campaign. Don't tell me we can't change.

Yes, we can. Yes, we can change. Yes, we can”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXyqcx-mYY

Starhawk,
I believe it is gives these principles insufficient credit to present them as proprietary to the Pagan church. Even though they may not be widely recognized as such, these principles seem to me to be the fundamentals of universal human religious feeling. To put them in the context of the property of a particular church is to claim ownership of something you could not possibly own.
With respect,
L. Kurt Engelhart

Starhawk,

This Christian cannot find a single sentence, not even a single word, that I can disagree with in your essay. Obama!