Judging Character They Have, Not Characters They Know

Thanks, Sparrow. Just has been a bad week.

I live in Brooklyn and about 5 years ago I moved into a house owned by my best friend. My bedroom overlooks a wildly overgrown garden with 2 gorgeous old locust trees, and when the moon is up I love to fall asleep looking at it from my window.In my old place I could only see the moon if I went outside and stood in the middle of the street (not a good place to stand) and there were no stars at all. Sometimes you don't know how much you missed something until you find it again.

mokey- sorry for your loss. I got no words of wisdom- Paganplace got them all on this thread- but I have been there too. Just know even us cyberfolk are thinking about you.

Hi PP: I thought the same thing last night, even before I saw your post. Such a gorgeous moon- that's exactly what I did. I'd intended to set up sacred space- but instead I just broke right on our back sidewalk.

"I regret we're not in contact in more personal places. :)"

Me too. :) I really hadn't intended to put anything on the web about this, it just kinda happened.

Hunter's Moon, tonight, you know, Priver.

Not the worst time ever to walk outside and just be, and feel, and all.

Which beats anything I might say here, though I regret we're not in contact in more personal places. :)

I know. that's also something I've thought alot about. At the funeral I was the older sister letting the little one shake and cry in my arms and a cousin giving support for one having no idea how to handle the first real shock they've ever had.

It's so easy to forget oneself when having to look after others while at the same time having to pretend to be something you're not just to avoid upsetting the matriarch or disturbing the family peace any further than you already have. So many of them don't even know about my Paganism, nor would they ever stop talking about it if they did- and not in a good way.

I mean, to my experience, Priver, I think this is our hardest row to hoe about being modern Pagans in this day and age... When it comes to living our lives, everyone thinks they have an especial right to try and force us this way or that or scorn us, ...but when they're utterly bewildered and confused and hurt about the mere fact of somebody dying, then all of a sudden they remember we're the older siblings.

But this is part of what we do. Right? Don't neglect your own feelings. We're real, too.

It's real, Priver. And Lady's hand on you.

There are times when it shows honor to not cry, but that's not about the not-crying. That's about whatever other things you might need to do with composure.

There are times to cry, too. Don't let all this noise deprive you of that. Nothing's forgotten. You're allowed.

Dig?

Damn, and I nearly made it through a whole day without crying till I saw that.

I've just been running and running so much this past week for all the folks (and their relatives and THEIR relatives) coming out to the family home who just finally left on Sunday that I had to drive an hour home, collapse and get up and try to work yesterday and today without much concentration or productivity.

just doesn't seem real.

Thanks, PP.

Simpler for me than that, Sparrow. I judge people by how they treat you when they think you're weaker than they. :)

I always believed the kind of person you are is shown by how well you treat your enemies or those you bested. Maybe we have bought into the sports as life creed- where it's all about winning and dominating. that may work in the short run, but in the long run it never does. They talk about teamwork, but that's so insular. team sports seems all about rage today, not about sportsmanship, or personal best. I wonder if this is an American thing?

"Still, you know it's bad when your friends and family call you "Queen of the Cats." I like it but the cats roll around on the floor laughing hysterically."

Well, the imperious kitties won't laugh last if all they know is canned food and that stops coming.

I mean, Victoria wasn't wrong about the notion I've sorta studied under the Morrigan. First step toward winning a fight, or feeling the need to escalate one, is to *get over the fact someone had the temerity to strike you, or say they might.*

I got the crap kicked out of me a number of times as a young lass, before that simple fact got into my head. Some people of power, religious, or political, try to invest you in an idea of safety in obedience, in talismans of power like guns and religious condemnations, threats and dehumanizations, ...a paralyzing indignance that it's *personal* when someone attacks you, (and maybe that they aint too impressed when Gandhi-type moves called Christian don't actually work, in terms of 'repentance and righteousness,'

Simple things get lost, like *you don't need to dehumanize someone *to* fight them.* If you get over the coddled notion that fighting takes blind fury and demonization and must be some ;special circumstance' the righteous allow themselves, basically, BS walks.

Folks like CCNL are convinced that a fight *is* about which words dehumanize better. I bet he's a much bigger person than me. I wouldn't fear him in a fight, even half-crippled by arthritis as I am. However big a gun or theological aggression he had, he'd be too busy trying to validate his fears to back up his talk.

Kind of like in the old Gaelic thing, you don't insult a vanquished or threatened enemy, cause that sullies both the fight and the victory, and also leads to feud.

He fears Muslims on this basis, ...cause it's all he knows. People who worship authority and have to stoke themselves up to war over who's most peaceful ...and who's most 'evil' are just cro-Mags with more dangerous toys.

A pattern of Concerned Christian I notice is that he's so *desperately* afraid someone will treat him exactly as he tries to incite us to treat others.

This is not the game. And it's not an honorable *fight.* It's something else.

I asked my cats about the lipstick- they sneered. then they told me to go polish the silver. I've always been an animal person and I am sure I'll be the classic "old cat lady." I used to think that we were equals, but alas- they have other ideas :-) Still, you know it's bad when your friends and family call you "Queen of the Cats." I like it but the cats roll around on the floor laughing hysterically.

"Paganplace- sorry if i gave you the wrong impression of what my sister meant."

Nah, I read that, I was just commenting on a certain irony. :)

" She and I are twins and we both construed me being taken for a witch as a compliment, whereas she feels the b-word more accurate description of me! (at least when she's annoyed with me.)"

Well, we don't diss our canine relations here in Paganism, either. Necessarily, unless maybe they get too proud of certain breeding practices and lipstick. :)

"Actually I never used "Sparrow" as a name but I use it on the internet and in artwork in honor of my mother. they were her favorite bird and much like her. Unless you knew her, she was easy to overlook, and she was small and very sweet."

Heh. Word. ;)

"I am in total agreement with you and arminius. there's no percentage in being an enemy and until we realize this the world will never be at peace."

Sometimes I think a lot of the problem here is we've forgotten how to be *honorable enemies* to the extent there's completely untoward drama about any disagreement that may crop up.

Like I say to Muslims who really do think it'll come down to swords some day, it's like, 'Well, if you wanna take it there, we'l have a fight. No sense pretending it's personal. Long blades do ugly things, no need to show any less of classinesse about it.' :)

"You're not the only one with a sieve- like mind. I just buried someone dear to me on Friday and have been unable to remember much since. Which makes me essentially worthless at work right now."

All due comfort, Priver. I've had a few rough Samhains, myself, in that way. Speaking of screen-names, there's a Waterboys song struggling to play on my old computer, who is apparently just laboring under the task of filtering out the non-functional crap ... 'When Ye Go Away,' ...I've always found it a good autumn-towards Samhain song.

Grief doesn't make us 'worthless,' though. That's what 'they' say. Grief is an expression of what makes being there in the first place 'worth' anything to begin with.

Just cause some employer wants to tell me I'm not 'worth' anything cause maybe I can't stand nor sit still so long, doesn't mean I'm worthless, any more than grief, or in fact, that information overload does in fact seem to impair memory in some ways we may live to laugh and/or cry about later, ....well, that doesn't *mean* Jack Squat.

Not about you feeling something, anyway, dig?

Hi arminius!

Paganplace- sorry if i gave you the wrong impression of what my sister meant. She and I are twins and we both construed me being taken for a witch as a compliment, whereas she feels the b-word more accurate description of me! (at least when she's annoyed with me.)

Actually I never used "Sparrow" as a name but I use it on the internet and in artwork in honor of my mother. they were her favorite bird and much like her. Unless you knew her, she was easy to overlook, and she was small and very sweet.

I am in total agreement with you and arminius. there's no percentage in being an enemy and until we realize this the world will never be at peace.

Ah, though, Sparrow. NYC. You're probably good for books and networking. Didn't used to be an easy place to do that, some time ago, but you can probably ask around. In other days, I'd get down there on occasion, but that's another story. :)

Anyway, Arminius:

"I, of course, am one of those interested people. The joy in, and respect for, Creation you and I share. I did figure out that books would entail building a small library by itself. I need to have face time with a Pagan."

Probably a lot of Christians do, really. It doesn't help much to leave it to your most-aggressive types that we usually meet at the other end of a literal or metaphorical bullhorn, who of course want to believe they're out to destroy us, and we're out to destroy you.

This won't help my family, or any Pagan's or Christian's family:*As either those who remain Christian or those who are Pagan.

*As* a Pagan, it's not in my vocabulary to just turn my back on kinship, even if to an extent, even that is something appropriated to toxic dynamics, in ways I couldn't countenance, but it'd be like shooting myself in the leg to wish you ill. Should a fight come, .....with anyone, there's no glory or honor in 'vanquishing' or being 'martyred by' someone you saw as less than 'human' in the first place.

Others want to make a 'war' of our lives. even our very souls. Some say this is 'Christianity,' ...I think you know better.

I say, really, if we Pagans want others to accept that we're *part* of this world of life, death, and rebirth, we're kin. Cause if it can happen a number of times, it'll happen again. Whether or not you believe it possible, chances are good I'll be born to a Christian family again. So there's no percentage in being 'the enemy.'

Takes a village to be good neighbors, know what I'm saying?

This isn't a 'war,' as the Palins and CCNLs of the world seem to need to believe. It's just us. :)

Arminius,

You're always welcome as far as I'm concerned. :)

And Priver will be going by mokey2 because of aforementioned love of all things Muppet, especially Fraggles.

You're not the only one with a sieve- like mind. I just buried someone dear to me on Friday and have been unable to remember much since. Which makes me essentially worthless at work right now.

"I've always been drawn to many of the ideas and beliefs of wicca and oddly, when I used to do art shows, I had Wiccans walk up to me out of the blue and ask me if I was a witch."

Well, if you go by 'Sparrow' out there, someone might be inclined to guess that way. Good Pagan name. :) I used to know a Sparrow, a long time ago. :)

"It happened often enough that my sister atarted joking about it.(although she did question if they were using a "w" or a "b"! :-)"

I've always found it ironic in recently-conservative times that the recently-acceptable 'b-word' gets overdubbed with the 'w-word,' as though that were an OK insult, comparatively.

Kind of like TV channels insist on showing the Breakfast Club but try to rewrite the language in it to pretend people didn't actually used to be...used to people talking that way.

Paganplace,

I, of course, am one of those interested people. The joy in, and respect for, Creation you and I share. I did figure out that books would entail building a small library by itself. I need to have face time with a Pagan.

The name confusion is driving me batty. Perhaps those whose handles have changed could identify themselves by their old names to help those of us with sieve-like memories....?

Ah, right, Priver. :) The screen-name shuffle has really thrown me off. :) BB! :)

Thanks for all the advice. Indeed, for the most part you're probably right in terms of my beliefs but to be perfectly honest, I still seem to be searching. I've always been drawn to many of the ideas and beliefs of wicca and oddly, when I used to do art shows, I had Wiccans walk up to me out of the blue and ask me if I was a witch. It happened often enough that my sister atarted joking about it.(although she did question if they were using a "w" or a "b"! :-)

Maybe its just my nature to question and seek, but I've never felt I have all the answers. Or even that I had all the questions.

I'm in NYC- I'm sure I can find some bookshops. Luckily not all have fallen victim to B & N yet.

Hi Paganplace,

Not Lepi, but that's quite a compliment. It's the artist formerly known as priver. :)

"Don't be afraid to ask a TON of questions and don't check your critical thinking at the door."

So much more succinct, Mokey. (was this Lepi, again? )

I would also add, though. Don't forget to actually kick your shoes off and dance. :)

Ah, Sparrow. Well, if you're interested for yourself, (I kind of had the impression you were settled elsewhere,) then the question of 'what to read' opens up a lot, cause you'll really want to read a great diversity of stuff to get the lay of the land, so to speak.

It's good to talk to a bunch of different folks, get a sense of things, ...also to get an idea of who's doing the recommending, when it comes to reading and such. In like wise, they might be able to get a sense of what you might be most interested in.

The bigger the reading list you're willing to deal with, the more recommendations you'll get. :) (I don't know much what to think of any of the correspondence courses out there, at least of a Wiccan bent, some certainly seem more serious than others, ...one tends to doubt the notion of trying to teach Wicca through the mail, but compared to relying solely on books, maybe it's an improvement.)

Best to meet a bunch of different people in person, if you live in an area where that's practical. I'm conscious there's a lot of newer material out there than some of the stuff we older hands learned on... (I'd actually be a bit wary of starting with *too* much of the old feminist spirituality stuff, cause of the politics, ...likewise with starting with too much 'occultey'-flavored stuff: odds are it's just easier to start somewhere near the 'middle' and pick a next direction to explore from wherever that is. :)

Bookstores, particularly mainstream ones, will tend to be pretty hit or miss: they like to stock the shelves with the same old kind of stuff about spells and magic, cause they tend to get more sales and keep people coming back for more, not that I'd say the authors are necessarily insincere. There's also sometimes any of a number of the '31 flavors of do it yourself Wicca' type things: some of those can be pretty decent, if I think, maybe too often padded with the abovementioned kinds of stuff and all.

Smaller brick-and-mortar bookshops of all kinds have been on the decline in general for some years now, but if there's a Pagan one near you, that can be a resource, (Only problem there is that they tend to get denuded of a lot of the better stuff pretty quickly: books are a lot of overhead to carry, so it's good to ask: they might be out of stock of just what you need. Also, there's kind of more money in New-Agey stuff, so not all metaphysical stores are necessarily all that Pagan-literate. Such are the times. But, really, all in all, there's a lot more accessible information out there than there than when I was learning. :) )

I've been meaning for some time to check out the newer crop of books, (I'm aware there's a lot of newer stuff out there that's more current and might give a better sense of things than some of the older ones. :) precisely because these sorts of questions come up a lot. What I mentioned below was specifically related to our discussions here, but is still quite possibly a good read if it's a kind of language you relate to. Just don't let anyone draw your conclusions for you.

My experience of people exploring Paganism (including me) is that quite often there's more emphasis on finding people or ideas/practices you first 'agree' with, and that tends to produce a lot of 'noise,' (particularly on the Internet, which is great for debate, but tends to want to turn *everything* into a debate: disagreement produces more content, consensus tends to involve a lot fewer words.

Nature of the medium, and all. Anyway, this is way off topic, but then again, maybe it's useful for those who are mostly just wondering, 'Who the heck *are* these people?' :)

Sparrow4,

Enjoy the search. That's what the process is all about. Read as much as you can so that you can get an idea of what's out there, then read the critiques of those books. Part of the fun for me is seeing why others disagreed with some of the authors. It forced me to figure out what I thought.

Don't be afraid to ask a TON of questions and don't check your critical thinking at the door.

MOKEY2 :"Starhawk's books, especially the Spiral Dance, are also good too.. just keep in mind that the historical portions were based on the leading scholarship of the time, which looks very different now than it did then."

One of the beauties of "The Spiral Dance" can be found in Starhawk's revsions and updates. The footnotes are several layers deep and full of knowing revisions, pointing out errors of fact in the original text, pointing out things that went wrong in rituals and things that went right as well. As regards Wiccans and morals I have yet to read anything as good as Starhawk's "Dreaming the Dark." While Susan Griffin's "Woman and Nature: The Roaring Inside Her" is not strictly speaking a Wiccan text, it is a poetic classic of eco-feminism. And Z. Budapest's "The Holy Book Book of Women's Mysteries" belongs in this company as well, half grimoire, half autobiography of an extraordinary and extraordinarily powerful personality.

Dear Friends,

Seeing as book recommendations are being bandied about, there's a title that strikes me as an important tool for anyone honestly trying to understand the Christian religion.

"Burton L. Mack is a writer and John Wesley Professor (now emeritus) in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology in Claremont, California. He is also active at the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity. Mack is primarily a scholar of Christian origins, approaching it from the angle of social group formation. Mack's approach is skeptical, and he sees traditional Christian documents like the Gospels as myth as opposed to history"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_L._Mack

This is the entry in the Wikipedia, with the opening warning:

"This article does not cite any references or sources.
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (September 2008)"

The Wiki entry goes on to say:

"Mack is primarily a scholar of Christian origins, approaching it from the angle of social group formation. Mack's approach is skeptical, and he sees traditional Christian documents like the Gospels as myth as opposed to history ("myth" in New Testament studies is not meant to imply "falsehood" or "lie", but rather it is meant to take into account the social, cultural, and political situations of their author. . . "

As a matter of fact, reading Burton L. Mack's books one can very easily reach the conclusion that Jesus Christ is a in fact a myth, just like any other. Most historical researches into the new testament assume that the myth of Christ is referring to the life of a singular personality. In most biblical studies there is a insinuation of historicity to the life of Christ that cannot be verified by the materials at hand. In fact, Professor Mack goes out of his way to make this point. The book by Professor Mack that I want to recommend is "The Christian Myth; Origins, Logic & Legacy." Oddly enough, it becomes relevant to our times in delineating the myths of fundamentalists:

". . . .It is time to recognize that the Bible is not a document calling for equality. The Christian myth calls for conversion and obedience. It projects a global vision, but that vision is completely inadequate for the purpose of imagining the future of a multiethnic, multicultural world. There is no place under the canopy projected by the Christian myth for all the peoples of the world who are not Christian. Christian mentality was rendered uncritical and uncreative by the fact of one thousand years of Christendom. The total control of the mythic imagination during that period, and the fact that the world of the imagination encompassed the very horizons of human experience and thought made it possible to think that the Christian myth was about the majesty of an all inclusive vision for the redemption and well-being of humanity. But the history of the western Christian nations since the ages of discovery and enlightenment has proven otherwise. And now, a critical analysis of the origins, logic, and legacy of the Christian myth shows why it is not working to help Christians think about equality and take guidance for human relations and policies at the beginning of its twenty-first century. Social problems will not be solved by preachments, conversions, and violence. The imagination of external saviors, apocalyptic judgments, and divine sovereignty runs counter to the social visions now required. And the history of biblical authorizations in America runs from wars in the interest of political powers, through lynchings in the interest of exorcising difference, to atrocities in the interest of white supremacy. To proclaim, "We have no king but Jesus," sounds Iike an even balance between church and state, a democracy on the one hand and a deep religious piety on the other. But it has no value for clarifying procedures in the interest of democratic legislation, or constraints against the mendacity of self-serving political ploys. The Christian myth is simply not adequate as a mythic imagination for the social formations that need to be constructed in order to assure human well-being in a multiethnic, multicultural world. It cannot be used to celebrate the high moral purposes of the American experiment in nation building, and it cannot be used as the major theme for the history of that experiment. . ."

Burton L. Mack:"The Christian Myth" pages 191/192

paganplace and mokey2- thank you so much for the information. I'm going to find out more- I have always been interested and had a friend who was a white witch. Her knowledge and interests we e so extensive and fascinating. I had intended to take a course with her mentor but didn't have a chance because of illness. So it is something I would like to go back to and find out more about. Sadly my friend and i lost touch after 9-11 and I have not been able to locate her since.

antiwar.com's source of casualites is as noted in the update on our War on Terror and Aggression:

e.g. The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,371, combat 778 non-combat) and 87,387 – 95,373
Iraqi civilians, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

antiwar.com

"This site is devoted to the cause of non-interventionism and is read by libertarians, pacifists, leftists, "greens," and independents alike, as well as many on the Right who agree with our opposition to imperialism. Our initial project was to fight against intervention in the Balkans under the Clinton presidency. We applied the same principles to Clinton's campaigns in Haiti and Kosovo and bombings of Sudan and Afghanistan. Our politics are libertarian: our opposition to war is rooted in Randolph Bourne's concept that "War is the health of the State." With every war, America has made a "great leap" into statism, and as Bourne emphasized, "it is during war that one best understands the nature of that institution [the State]." At its core, that nature includes an ever increasing threat to individual liberty and the centralization of political power. "

To Sparrow4,

When I was first asking about books my first teacher pointed me towards Margot Adler's book Drawing Down the Moon. She is a journalist and it's the most extensive survey and overview of many of the different types of Paganism out there that I've found. She does great research, and it's a good starting point.

Starhawk's books, especially the Spiral Dance, are also good too.. just keep in mind that the historical portions were based on the leading scholarship of the time, which looks very different now than it did then.

There really is no one book that encompasses everything, but that's the joy of discovery right there. Most folks that I know LOVE the discovery and realization that there's so much to learn that nobody can grasp it all. It's about reading as much as you can, using your critical thinking, but it's ultimately something that has to be experienced.

And if it's not for you, that's really ok too. All paths lead to center. :)

" sparrow4
"Paganplace- is there a book on Paganism you recommend overall?"

Actually, not really any one, ...that's kind of the point, in a way, ..especially regarding our diversity of practices and heritages and all the other complicating factors, it's just really hard to try to generalize, especially for folks who tend to want to define a religion by creeds and rules and liturgies and commands and scriptures and certain notions of what a God is.

...a good percentage of the books you might see in the stores are going to be kind of someone's commercialization and/or 'how to' books: more scholarly stuff can be harder to find, and by nature even attempts to produce a survey of modern Paganism are bound to be incomplete.

Since this board's always going to ethics and morality, (and quite commonly monotheists challenging the idea we even *have* any) ..I just thought this book might be helpful to those kind of looking to understand some of what we *do* largely hold in common, and what I personally think has developed, ...if only from someone's considered point of view. I suppose whether or not that's so would depend on what a non-Pagan can get out of it.

"And am I wrong if I assume Paganism and Wicca are very different?"

Wicca, itself a fairly broad umbrella term these days, is a subset of Paganism. Other people's further confusion about this can make it, well, more confusing, still. You could draw an analogy like, Wiccan are to Pagans as, say, Protestants are to monotheists.

" Sorry- I really know very little but the few Wiccans I have met seem to have a wisdom and thoughtfulness about them that I truly liked. You espouse a way of dealing with the world that seems more integrated, more of a whole-"

Kind of you to say, :) ..that's actually an important commonality to Pagan worldviews, ...it's less about division and more about integration.

Hope that helps. :)

"As to your recommended book, I think the ethics parts would be good, but the minute he gets into vegan theology is when it gets trashed."

Oh, definitely 'vegan theology' isn't involved, not in this book, anyway, but I do think the author falls into that conventional dogma while trying to insist on the notion as actually the only natural expression of those ethics, or animism, for that matter, Just sort of a potential blind-spot warning, there, for anyone who does trouble to read it.

I just thought I'd point out, since I said, 'Hey, here's something to read and get a better idea how all this stuff fits together,' ...that, glaringly in that case, things start to not really represent the conclusions typical Pagans necessarily draw, ...here the text actually turns into just the kind of 'proofing' that usually isn't the hallmark of the relating to the world described:

...it's kind of a bit of an intrusion of that judgmental vegan thing into what's otherwise a pretty workable written description of Pagan ethics: it's fairly typical of Pagans to consider how agribusiness treats our food animals profoundly disrespectful, unsustainable, and wrong... to the extent of refusing to participate if they can thrive, that way. ...and this doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be inherently dishonorable to eat meat or animal products under any circumstances: particularly when the most conspicuous problems are our own overpopulation and overconsumption, anyway: if people in the developed world didn't eat so *much,* (then wonder how to lose pounds,) that'd of itself go a long way to restoring some sanity to the situation, spiritual and environmental. Many Pagans won't eat meat that wasn't hunted or raised properly, (for some, what they didn't have a personal part in this) ...being a bit more subject to limitations, I have my own ways about it.

Which is all very interesting, (sorry for digression within digression) but the real point was just not to assume this is some dogma or that everyone necessarily reaches the same conclusions. With the vegan stuff, the text kind of goes off the rails, in some ways, is all.

Doubtless a turnoff, in general, especially for those of us once too often subjected to vegan moralizing, ...but actually it's as good an explanation of the vegan thing as I've heard yet, (and in terms familiar to me for once.) the sudden departure into the 'This is the only ethical conclusion an animistic perspective could entertain,' notwitstanding.

But that's why ya read. For what it's worth.

Oh, and Climacus, that was part of a general conversation about deregulation. First they secured the means of selling the idea. As for the fairness doctrine, it had obvious shortcomings, but compared to what we got instead, (along with the general package that led to this polarized media situation) ...I'd rather we'd not just thrown our media to the greediest.

Paganplace- is there a book on Paganism you recommend overall? And am I wrong if I assume Paganism and Wicca are very different? Sorry- I really know very little but the few Wiccans I have met seem to have a wisdom and thoughtfulness about them that I truly liked. You espouse a way of dealing with the world that seems more integrated, more of a whole- I tend to believe that the world is an organic whole where every action is echoed and amplified in every other place. It reminds me of the famous science-fiction story of a group of hunters who travel back in time to hunt dinosaurs and accidentally bring a butterfly back with them, changing the course of a present day election and the fate of the world.

Tax and spend Democrats ≠ spend and spend Republicans.

Hi, Wiccan!

When in a crisis like today, having disturbing similarities to the great depression (though not exact), the odd thing is that more money must be spent, and especially on public works, and taxes must be raised, on those who can afford it. This worked for America in the 30's. Oddly, it also worked for Germany in the 30's, under that oddball Austrian corporal. It works. You just need to know when to stop.

Krugman is really where it's at. Of the several eco-columnists, he is the best. I always read him.

Possibly the second most devastating mistake (the first being Iraq) made by the Shrub was telling America to go shopping after 9/11, and then cutting taxes on the rich. The stupidity of 'trickle down' economics has now been soundly crushed. Those who still think it is valid are there in the loony bin with those who still insist that democrats spend more than republicans, a myth that was dispelled under Reagan, and reinforced under the two Shrubs.

Merry Meet, dear friends. I was watching Bill Moyers over the weekend and he had a guest who recommended doing what FDR did, put people to work repairing and upgrading America's infrastructure. Lowers unemployment and gives taxpayers value for their dollars. I cannot believe that any Republican can look at the war debt and the bailout debt AND propose the best thing to do is to cut taxes!!! Has fiscal conservatism become an oxymoron?

Hi Arminius,

Yes, that is the figure for Afghanistan alone. You can follow the links. One has a gruesome picture of a young boy suffering from burns. Combine this information with the number of fatalities there and in Iraq (SEE Robin's post.) What are we doing?

Hope we take back the country soon. Usually read Krugman in morning, but missed him today. ONe of the few, principled, intelligent, journalists around. No Devils vs. Angels for him. A realist. An economist with the ability to make ordinary people better understand economy. Good man with good theory, caring. Wonderful that he won the Nobel. Thanks for the info.

Farnaz

Hi, Paganplace!

As to your recommended book, I think the ethics parts would be good, but the minute he gets into vegan theology is when it gets trashed. Vegans are something of a cult. Note well, I have nothing against vegetarians, my daughter is one, as well as my best friend. And I am doing my best to eat more veggies, but my last effort, involving a lot of beans, was somewhat embarrassing...

Ah, yes, the current meltdown. Odd, is it not? Led by England, which started offering struggling institutions capital infusion for exchange for partial ownership, countries are lining up to do the same. This is described well in Krugman's column today in the NYT (he just won the Nobel Prize for Economy). So the DOW soared nearly 1000 points.

But, as Yogi Berra famously said, "It ain't over 'til it's over." We will see. I have my doubts. But at least we have gotten past Paulson's attempt at financial dictatorship.

Paganplace, you commented “Can you believe they wanted to 'invest' our Social Security in this market, for instance?” Let’s recall that the plan that McCain backed was not a question of “them” wanting to invest the money in the market, it was a plan to allow younger workers to decide whether to invest some, not all, of that money in the market similar to what you do with your 401(k). You could invest part of your Social Security contributions in stocks, bonds or other financial products. Of course, few workers, even among the young, invest everything in equities, but what would have happened if the plan had been adopted and you *had* decided to invest everything in stocks? Even after the recent financial slide, your private social security account would have been in good shape, in all likelihood (it would have almost certainly multiplied more than without the plan). And 20 or 30 years from now we could expect it to be doing even better, market crashes and all.

I also had questions concerning your reference to the FCC's old Fairness Doctrine. What was your point in mentioning it? Do you really think the Fairness Doctrine worked well at the time, much less now (if it were reinstated)? How do you respond to First Amendment-based criticisms of it?

Hey, Arminius. :) Book referral for you there below, if you can lay hands to a copy, I know you're having some money difficulties, yourself, right now, but I thought you might get something out of it.

As for what do we do now, well, as a nation, and particularly with this bailout, we let too much unaccountable big money get inside our decision curve under the Republican policies lately, ...we're forced to deal with the situation in certain ways, and I suppose hope that's not part of the looting, too...

What's called for is a somewhat more comprehensive and integrated plan for not just 'fixing the problem,' (as if the declining state of affairs were something we really wanted to try to climb back up the same slide of) but actually turning the solution efforts toward something economically and ecologically and socially and geopolitically-sustainable.

That's a tall order, but this crisis can be an opportunity to come together and overcome our own collective inertia. In fact, much of the inertia just got overcome cause of recent hard bumps against reality. It still came as a shock, to some, but in some ways I feel like I've burned away my shoeleather trying to help put the brakes on some careening courses... Now that my feet have cooled off a bit, I say, ...rather than try to build up the same doomed momentum and then try to start undoing still worsened problems *against* that very same inertia...

Why don't we pick a good course? Something that'll get us somewhere, now that the 'wrong direction' we've all known we've been going isn't so locked-in? I think a key case of where we can do this is rebuilding the economy around our desperate environmental concerns, wherever possible. That'd be something to look forward to.

Farnaz,

My apologies, I doubted your figures on Afghanistan. But I did some research, and $100M USD / day must be pretty close. That leaves $400M USD / day for Iraq.

(Insert here the sound of a can of worms being opened...)

So what do we do now?

Must it take a life for hateful eyes
to glisten once again
Five hundred years like gelignite
Have blown us all to hell
What savior rest while on his cross we die
Forgotten freedom burns
Has the shepherd led his lambs astray
To the bigot and the gun
Must it take a life for hateful eyes
to glisten once again
'Cause we find ourselves in the same old mess
Singing drunken lullabies
- - Flogging Molly, 'Drunken Lullabies'
(Singing about Northern Ireland)

Thanks for the http://maxblumenthal.com reference, though, Robin. Should be some grist for the mill there for those in denial of Palin's extremism.

Seems discussion has died down, ...in some ways, what more can be said.

Regarding some questions that tend to come up regarding Paganism in general, when things get past specific concerns, I've found a book, (Yes, me, a book) which might actually help elucidate some of the perspectives that people are curious about, and a little hard to describe in a format such as this.

The book is "Living With Honour: A Pagan Ethics," by Emma Restall Orr ...you won't find much about specific practices in here, cause, well, it's about ethics, ...and a lot of it uses the familiar language of recent philosophers and thinkers, ...but frankly, this might be easier for some to grasp than trying to translate myriad Pagan practices into the same kind of framework as more familiar-to-them ones.

A lot of it some of you'd find pretty familiar from what some of us say, here... and it does a fairly good job describing the common threads I've always tried to describe.

My big criticism of the book is that a bit after halfway through, the author starts drawing conclusions from Vegan dogmas that frankly, most Pagans don't share, even if articulating much of how very many of us are appalled at humans' treatment of animals, she sort of appropriates animism for the Vegan thing, (Actually, most animists are well aware of the connection between humans and food animals, thanks very much, ...this doesn't mean a good relationship can't involve hunting and domestication, ) and misses out on the opportunity to actually explore how Pagan ethics meet a subject we often respectfully disagree about.

After this the book never quite seems to lose that exhortatory tone, and maybe loses some of its usefulness in communicating our framework, but for some, here, at least, I think it'd be a worthwhile read. Besides, poor CCNL is having trouble finding things to pull out of context. :)

Thought I'd throw that out there, as it keeps coming up and might be understandable to some. :)

More on War on Terror--including Afghanistan, where we are spending 100,000,000 per day. That is, the United States is spending more than 100,000,000 per day in the "War on Terror" in Afghanistan. Results? Death, deformity, etc.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10506

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/62006--the-number-killed-in-the-war-on-terror-415397.html

CCNL :
"And now to the more important issue i.e. our War on Terror and Aggression":

15: Iraqis killed in "War on Terror": 1,273,378

http://antiwar.com/updates/

This just in: Terror won!

The Croissant, as Confused as ever, seems to ignore the elephant in the room: if we don't set the world economy back on track, the 'war on terror' cannot be fought. Typical.

Err, no.

And now to the more important issue i.e. our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)-

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens killed, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,371, combat 778 non-combat) and 87,387 – 95,373 Iraqi civilians, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

3. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

4. NK has finally started to destroy in nuclear weapons’ capabilities and therefore this week NK was removed from the terrorist country list.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Max Blumenthal appears to be the source for investigative reporting on Sarah Palin.

Here is his website:

http://maxblumenthal.com/

As regards character issues, the virtual media blackout on Sarah Palin just might be the most serious single issue in this election. Max Blumenthal's reporting requires your attention.

maybe I am being naive but I look around and see how charged up this country is over this election and i think maybe we'll get it back.
----------------
I think we can. Maybe, I too am being naive, but cynicism won't save us. This country has made monumental moral progress every time the people fought for it. There is a great history of protest here and I don't think it's over.

I love this country too and I watched us give it away. I blame the politicians for making us feel powerless and us for believing it. maybe I am being naive but I look around and see how charged up this country is over this election and i think maybe we'll get it back. Not right away, but someday.

From what I understand, one of the problems with bills that included earmarks is that there is no line item veto- I know that overall earmarks are a pittance of our budget, but again you're right. It's buying votes and all of us are complicit, from the congressman who dangles the carrots and we who jump up to eat them.

In one way all of us have to take responsibility- we all wanted a piece of the pie and we did know it was too easy.
----------------------------

Evidently, the billion and a half in earmarks was one of the problems holding up the passage of the bill, that and the fact that there was no clear statement of exactly what we get for the rest of the money. Brooks and Shields, among others, pointed out that the earmarks constitute a huge sum of money, some of which, like the 192,000,000 in vote buying could have gone to much more important things.

Combined with the golden parachutes for CEOs, the failure to explore Born Again Poulson's billions made from producing the toxic paper for which we're now paying, how Poulson's interests may have affected his timing in pulling the emergency cord, the bailout leaves a bad taste in one's mouth.

Meanwhile, we are looking at ten years of recession (depression, inflation, possibly, deflation), have already witnessed actual suicides, hospitalizations from depression, etc.

I'm really at a loss. I have always loved this country. Now, I see more disillusionment, disgust, despair than I have ever witnessed. Friends who lived through Vietnam era tell me they can't understand these past decades of passivity. What will it take until we get out in the streets and stay there for as long as it takes?

Something is very rotten in Denmark. There is still a media blackout on the hurricane's effects in Texas, etc. so that Bush won't have to face criticism of his crippling of FEMA. We see nothing in the media about the horrors on the ground in Iraq, while other countries do. As we continue to pointlessly, wantonly bomb Afghanistan, we see nothing of the hundreds of thousands without arms and legs, the dead, the rubble. The slaughter of innocents. Other countries see this daily.

The media helped to bring an end to the horror of Vietnam. Now the media is transnationally owned, in it with big business, big corrupt dereg "globalizing" government.

It seems to me that we have rights. They are precious and Americans fought hard to get them. We are being stripped of them systematically and need to get them back.

From what I understand, one of the problems with bills that included earmarks is that there is no line item veto- I know that overall earmarks are a pittance of our budget, but again you're right. It's buying votes and all of us are complicit, from the congressman who dangles the carrots and we who jump up to eat them.

In one way all of us have to take responsibility- we all wanted a piece of the pie and we did know it was too easy.

The point of the earmarks was for the most point to buy votes. This much was conceded by a number of Republicans and Democrats including Peter King. This is the case for hundreds of millions of dollars.

It has nothing to do with anything else, no fancy, shmancy economics. Buying votes while Rome burns.

Thus far, I've seen no argument from anyone in Congress to whom the matter has been put, most notably Peter King, of the disgusted, anti-abortion, Irish women oppressivng Peter Kings. This bill passed a line that many who signed off on it including King found repulsive.

What to do. Check out all the earmarks. Some, such as those for the miners, are obviously legitimate. If rum isn't your thing, and that 192,000,000 is considered a vote-buying allocation by King and others, if corruption doesn't do it for you, write your Congressmen and Senators, as many are already doing. The bill passed. What we can do, who knows. Maybe, give one or two in Congress two-seconds pause the next time they set forth to scam us.

So inexperience is desired in both the presidential and vice-presidential positions?? i.e. Lincoln and Truman

Interesting!!

Whatever the point of that was. (We're way off topic to be posting entire web pages that don't really say anything about the rationale behind these things) ... I'm mostly concerned whether the bailout is helpful, since no one was really offered much of a choice...

The most important concession the Congress out of this extracted is not guaranteeing the whole kit and kaboodle in a lump sum, as the Republican version had it, and getting some accountability there, particularly before we know whether it's even effective.

As for the rum thing, who knows, maybe it's to save a storm-devastated sugar industry or something.

As I mentioned before, expanding the ethanol tax breaks to apply to sources that aren't coming from food, supporting bicycle commuting for all the benefits (and government savings) that that invests in.... Sounds like good stuff for some of what ails us, indeed.

America's not going to get out of its economic slump by not-investing in the people and our infrastructure, and an economy that can take us to the future.

Harping on 'earmarks' when it's been insistent Republican policies that hhave been holding the taxpayers hostage all this time, doesn't really impress me much, under these circumstances.

Seems there's always money for corporate handouts, and nothing for programs that might actually help... Not that I'm saying all or any of this stuff actually does or would, but who actually asked? Maybe it's a better economic stimulus than putting a billions in the pockets of those who profited off this in the first place...

Can you believe they wanted to 'invest' our Social Security in this market, for instance?

McCain and Palin have pretty well misrepresented both their own and Obama's records on this 'earmarks' thing, anyway... In the debate, McCain claimed Obama voted to spend three million on an 'overhead projector,' ....actually, he neither voted for it, nor was it an overhead projector: it was about the massive piece of equipment that is the functioning bit of a planetarium, which is an important educational and tourism attraction.

May be we won't have money for that sort of thing in coming times, but it was a reasonable request for an institution to make, not a five thousand dollar screwdriver or some weapons system the military doesn't even want. ...and it never even got through committee.

Oddly enough, Andrew Sullivan is stepping up to the plate, after shilling the Iraq war. Here he passes along "Break the Back Of The Enemy", a video Max Blumental created for "The Daily Beast", harrowing stuff indicating all too well what Sarah Palin's character is really like and what direction she plans on taking if she becomes the Veep:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/break-the-back.html

"My "perspective" is that when ordinary people are being fired, dispossed, committing suicide (!) being hospitalized for depression, it's a good time to stop stealing from them."

Can't argue with that. some of those earmarks make me want to take one of those arrow shafts and beat our elected representatives over the head (at least I'll get a tax break if its all natural wood).

Below is the text on earmarks. Some are fine; others egregious, given our circumstances. Economists have said it will take us ten years at least to get out of this and by us, they mean the world.

192 million on the rum business, it has been conceded, is vote buying. It's not the only pork in the scam. My "perspective" is that when ordinary people are being fired, dispossed, committing suicide (!) being hospitalized for depression, it's a good time to stop stealing from them.

Peter King (R), that would be the Peter King who mustered enough Catholic support to stop abortion in Ireland, Peter King who makes Palin look like a moderate, is disgusted with the scamming.

Perspective, indeed.

-------------------------------------
Top 10 Tax Sweeteners in the Bailout Bill
Category: Federal Budget, Headlines By TCS
Tag: budget, bailout
Pub Date: Oct 09, 2008

Update:
The House has just passed the final version of the 2008 Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, without making any changes to the version received from the Senate. The final vote was 263-171. To see how your Representative voted, click here.

Note:

In the analysis below we identified where possible specific champions of each provision. One thing that we did not explain very well is that many of the provisions are “extenders,” meaning the legislation in many cases simply extends existing law set to expire at the end of this year, and in some cases reinstates existing legislation that expired earlier in the year. Therefore, we couldn’t necessarily go back in history to identify who originally promoted some of the provisions. Many of these provisions had already been voted on and passed earlier this year, but had not been voted on in the House, so the Senate simply stuck them on to the underlying legislation. This is also true for other things tacked onto the bill, such as the Alternative Minimum Tax patch.

The following are some of the top tax sweeteners in the Senate passed Bailout Bill. Not all the provisions are per se outrageous, but collectively are intended to help Congressional leadership get final passage of the 2008 Emergency Economic Stabilization Act.

1. Sec. 503. Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children

Current law places an excise tax of 39 cents on the first sale by the manufacturer, producer, or importer of any shaft of a type used to produce certain types of arrows. This proposal would exempt from the excise tax any shaft consisting of all natural wood with no laminations or artificial means to enhance the spine of the shaft used in the manufacture of an arrow that measures 5/16 of an inch or less and is unsuited for use with a bow with a peak draw weight of 30 pounds or more. The proposal is effective for shafts first sold after the date of enactment. The estimated cost of the proposal is $2 million over ten years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

The Oregon senators were the initial sponsors of the provisions. According to Bloomberg News, the provision would be worth $200,000 to Rose City Archery in Myrtle Point, Oregon.

2. Sec. 317. Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility

Track owners want to be able write-off the cost of their facilities on their taxes over seven years - a depreciation timetable many of them have used for decades. But the IRS has wanted to stretch it to at least 15 years and has raised questions whether the increasingly popular tracks really belong in the same tax category as amusement parks.

Auto track owners are simply trying to get out of paying more taxes - which they'd have to do if they deducted less every year. These owners have gotten plenty of tax breaks over the years from states and localities eager to get speedways. The provision would be extended 2 years till the end of 2009 and would cost $100 million. The provision encompasses all facilities including grandstands, parking lots and concession stands.

3. Sec. 308. Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands

Extends until December 31, 2009 a rebate against excise taxes charged on rum imported from Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. A $13.50 per proof gallon excise tax is applied to distilled spirits imported to the U.S. Under this provision a $13.25 rebate is returned to PR and the VI, and is retroactive back to January 1, 2008. Permanent law sets the rebate at $10.50 per proof gallon, but the PR and VI provisions have generally been in place since the first Clinton Administration. The most recent extension of the $13.50 rebate expired January 1, 2008. Cost is $192 million.

4. Sec. 301. Extension and modification of research credit

The legislation reestablishes and extends the lucrative tax credit for companies doing research and experimentation in the United States. Companies that have benefited from this provision include Microsoft Corp., Boeing Co., United Technologies Corp., Electronic Data Systems Corp. and Harley-Davidson. The two-year extension is estimated to cost $19 billion.

5. Sec. 504. Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon Valdez litigation

The bailout bill would give a tax break to Exxon Valdez plaintiffs, allowing them to average out their punitive damages awards over three years rather than suffer a one-time tax hit from the Internal Revenue Service, as well as other provisions. Rep. Don Young (R-AK) is a big supporter of this provision. Cost is estimated at $49 million.

6. Sec. 601. Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.

Secure Rural Schools lead sponsors Reps. DeFazio (D-OR), Bill Sali (R-ID); Sens. Wyden (D-OR), Larry Craig (R-ID), are major boosters of this program that expired in 2006. In 1908 the federal government agreed to share logging revenue from Forest Service land with neighboring communities that could not tax the land because it was federal. As logging declined in the 1990s, the "county payments" program was initiated in 2000 to directly provide federal funding, more than half going to Oregon, to deal with the loss of revenue. The original version of this provision was introduced as a bill in early 2007 and was estimated to cost $2.2 billion when the OR and ID delegations came to agreement. To give the package more heft, Payment In Lieu of Taxes (PILT) was added to the package, bringing the total cost to $3.3 billion. PILT provides more general funding to counties for federal lands located within their borders. Sen. Reid (D-NV) talked about the PILT program being one of the important elements of the package when the Senate passed the bailout bill.

7. Sec. 201. Deduction for state and local sales taxes

Allows residents of states that don’t pay income tax to deduct, from their federal taxes, sales tax paid over the course of the year. States that benefit include Texas, Nevada, Florida, Washington and Wyoming. The bailout bill extends this provision for 2 years at a cost of $3.3 billion.

8. Sec 502. Provisions related to film and television productions

In an effort to keep film and television productions in the U.S, they would be eligible for a tax incentive program. Under this program, the cost of production of qualifying films would be permitted to be immediately expensed -- that is, fully deducted from income for tax purposes -- in the year the expenditures occur. This provision also makes permanent other favorable tax treatments for production. Historically Rep. Diane Watson (D-CA) has been a supporter (dating from its creation in the 2004 corporate tax bill). The cost is estimated at $478 million over 10 years.

9. Sec. 325. Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds

The tariff relief (duty savings) is intended to benefit U.S. worsted wool fabric producers that use imported fibers and yarns as inputs, as well as U.S. tailored clothing manufacturers that use imported fabrics as inputs. This provision was originally introduced as a bill in December 2007 by Reps. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) and Melissa Bean (D-IL). It extends current law provisions until 12/31/14, and in some cases to12/31/15. The 2010 to 2015 cost is estimated to be $148 million.

10. Sec. 309. Extension of economic development credit for American Samoa

This extends by two years a previously approved tax credit, the American Samoa economic development credit. In general, this credit allows certain corporations operating in American Samoa a tax credit. The possessions tax credit allows these corporations to offset a portion of their U.S. tax liability on income earned in American Samoa from active business operations, sales of assets used in a business, or certain investments in American Samoa. The cost is $33 million, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

Other Examples:

Here are some other interesting provisions

Sec. 201. Inclusion of cellulosic biofuel in bonus depreciation for biomass ethanol plant property

Current law allows taxpayers to write-off 50% of the cost of any facility placed in service before January 1, 2013 that produces cellulosic ethanol. This provision expands the types of facilities that may be written-off to include production of other cellulosic biofuels in addition to cellulosic ethanol.

Sec. 211. Transportation fringe benefit to bicycle commuters

Allows employers to provide a benefit to employees for costs associated with bicycle commuting, including purchase and repair of a bicycle, bicycle improvements, and bicycle storage. This provision was proposed in 2007 in the Senate by Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and in the House by Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-OR). This provision is estimated to cost $10 million.

Sec. 323. Enhanced charitable deductions for contributions of food inventory

Extends by two years, until December 31, 2009, a provision allowing for deductions related to the charitable donation of “apparently wholesome food”—defined as food intended for human consumption that meets all quality and labeling standards imposed by law and regulations even though the food may not be readily marketable. This provision also changes the application of the law as it relates to donations by farmers and ranchers. The cost is $149 million, according to Joint Committee on Taxation.

Sec. 324. Extension of enhanced charitable deduction for contributions of bookinventory

Extends by two years, until December 31, 2009, a tax benefit for the contribution of books to public schools. The provision is worth $49 million.

Sec. 602. Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund

Transfers interest earned on money in the abandoned mine reclamation fund to the United Mine Workers of America Combined Benefit Fund, which helps pay health benefits for retired miners and their dependents who worked under collective bargaining agreements that promised lifetime health-care benefits. States with the most miners receiving benefits have historically been Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, Virginia, and Ohio. This provision extends existing law to include a $9 million transfer for 2010.

Well, on the dreaded 'Earmarks,' ...when it's inflated into a scary figure when maybe the worst of it is a 200,000 dollar consideration, ...when in fact 'Small Government' types are responsible for trillions in waste and taxpayer handouts to corporations...

Perspective.

Seems one of the things we all do is throw out the baby with the bathwater. But that's partisan politics- all we've heard the last 8 years are slogans, geared to turning us into little minds with little thoughts. A slogan sounds so satisfying and all wise. It's marketing, not thinking, and one thing politicians know how to do is market.

Unfortunately, (to throw in a slogan here) chickens come home to roost, and all the old terms don't really suffice to explain what's happening to us today or what we need to do.

The Republicans really believe we are all stupid, and our lives can be codified into little pieces- wave the flag, don't protest the war in Iraq because you're insulting our troops, save the unborn innocent children, cut corporate taxes and we'll stay strong, deregulate! CEOs will make sure it all trickles down- they have all kinds of slogans that make it so easy to grasp a thought without really thinking.

That's what so angers me about Palin- she's all keywords and catch phrases. I don't want my patriotism praised, or my Americanism pandered to. I don't need anyone to tell me I'm a good American (implying of course only if I vote for them). I want answers to the hard questions. i want leadership, not a PR flack wearing a flag pin and an updo whose belief in the Constitution starts and stops at the doors of her Wasilla church.

Everyone who is anyone in politics has crossed paths with self-defined kingmakers. Not everyone allows themselves to be bought. Obama didn't make Chicago society, nor did he sell out to it. If every politician distanced themselves from everyone one questionable background, they would have to live on some island off the Bering strait where they could see Russia from the window. McCain and Palin have a much longer list to answer for. In real life, you navigate the waters, and if you have a conscience, you don't sell out and you don't fall for the lies. Obama has done neither, McCain and Palin assuredly have.

Btw., When confronted with the rum business and the accusation that it was there for the purpose of buying votes, Congressman Peter King said, "Hey. You do what you gotta do." Didn't seem happy about it, I grant you.

Glad to see his somber mood on this, since he ain't my all-time Congressional favorite.

Some of the earmarks seem fine to me, e.g., those for the miners. The arrows? The rum?

I mean I'm as good as the next guy when it comes to piña colada, but given our circumstances...?

Wow, I had no idea the first thing to worry about was taxing childrens' training arrows... One way or another, it doesn't seem like a big deal: you want to charge excise tax on recreational toys as if they were weapons, go ahead.

Other dreaded 'earmarks' seem less outrageable-to me. Credits for companies that encourage bicycle communters? Expanding biofuels support to non-food-based ethanol production? These seem to address some of the very problems that helped get us *into* this mess.

Keep in mind the Born Again Messenger Secretary of the Treasury, Poulson. That would be billionaire Poulson who made his BILLIONS producing the toxic paper we are now paying for.

And some of the earmarks in the bailout are truly frightening.

http://www.taxpayer.net/projects.php?action=view&category=&type=Project&proj_id=1436#

"My guess is that the MSM is first and foremost the Corporate mouthpiece."

This is one of the things we were all too-prescient about in the 80's: Reagan 'deregulated' the media, first, eliminating the 'fairness doctrine,' and allowing our media to be owned by fewer and fewer, and over the years, still fewer and fewer, big corporations.

Result: Fewer outlets, less competition in investigative journalism, those who are supposed to be informing our democracy more and more beholden to owners and advertisers, ...not to mention network news desks being expected to make a profit rather than do the public service and civic responsibility that is supposed to be the price paid by the media corporations for free use of the public airwaves.

The result? The MSM gaming every election to be or seem as much of a horse-race as possible to keep us glued to the tube, while the courts and cheaters get within reach of deciding things *for* us.

Merry Meet Paganplace!

"Bush said he's run the country like a corporation, when he entered office. Guess we should have looked a little harder how he ran all the corporations he was gifted with."

You betcha! Like Arbusto Energy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto_Energy

As Arbusto energy was about to go belly-up [what do you expect? "Why is this Night Different from all Other Nights?"], W sold it to Spectrum 7 Energy Corporation. When that went bust, it was 'acquired' by Harken Energy Corporation, then:

"There is substantial evidence to suggest that Bush knew Harken was in dire straits in the weeks before he sold the $848,560 of Harken stock," asserted U.S. News & World Report. The magazine noted Harken appointed Junior to a 'fairness committee' to study possible economic restructuring of the company. Junior worked closely with financial advisers from Smith Barney, Harris Upham & Company, who concluded "only drastic action could save Harken."

http://www.famoustexans.com/georgewbush.htm

Heckofa job, W!

Dear SPARROW4,

Excellent link. After reading Mike Lux's first-rate investigative reporting, I contributed a couple of comments, including:

" "I don't understand why they don't look more in these stories."

My guess is that the MSM is first and foremost the Corporate mouthpiece. Consider the advertisements that appear on MSNBC's left-skewing programing---ads for nuclear power, the oil & gas industry and the usual cars, cars, cars. It's true that the ads for "The Nation" magazine that frequently air alongside Maddow & Oldermann* offers up Sam Waterston's dependably progressive voice [over], but the "Ameritrade" ads, flogging online trading [an obvious result of deregulation] use his voice as well, clearly compromising Waterson's branding as some sort of official 'voice' of progressive issues. Don't even get me started on turncoat Dennis Hopper's flogging of retirement "investments". The MSNBC conduit is supposedly representing the progressive agenda. When you get to the barbeque media, all bets are off. That's why it's all Ayres all the time instead of the vetting of the real unknown in this election, the morally reprehensible Sarah Palin."

The topics Mike Lux is bringing up---that there's some very serious issues concerning the company that McCain & Palin keep---is exactly on point.

*[sic, what can I say, it's early and the coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet]

Well, (Why do I suspect this piece of advertising appeared on every thread) I could see a lot of conservatives not actually coming around to like McCain, but one minute they're calling Obama an 'inexperienced socialist' and the next they're calling him an insider responsible for the bailout.

I got news for you, the bailout comes of the deregulation fever of the conservative administrations... (Clinton wasn't exactly a liberal, particularly when it came to things like this, himself, ...he just wasn't a Republican or a neocon, and he had a Republican Congress to deal with) too many real people's lives and livelihoods were put at stake by companies that wanted to put the risks they were taking on the people's tab. Bush allowed this, and it was too late to get idealistically-free-market about *that* for once, by the time things crashed.

Yes, there's a difference.

Maybe not a difference corporate and religious conservatives much *like,* but a very significant one. ...go ahead and cast your protest votes, rather than vote for this McCain/Palin nightmare just to say you don't like gay people or abortion or immigration.

One thing we don't discuss too much is that it's been a long time that we've had this deaf-to-the-people Bush 'Imperial presidency' with Republicans in Congress never questioning or opposing him... We could expect the same out of McCain, unfortunately, but, consider this:

Obama's not really like that, and his idea of 'bipartisanship' is more than just the GOP one where 'Bipartisanship is that which we demand to get what we wanted when we fail to force our own way through without consideration for half the country.''

Bush said he's run the country like a corporation, when he entered office. Guess we should have looked a little harder how he ran all the corporations he was gifted with. Break one, get handed another... Screw up government and claim it's cause 'See, government doesn't work.'

The bailout may represent that last-minute looting by Wall Street I was always worried about. It'll certainly leave the Democratic administration with one heck of a mess to clean up, and that much less to do it with. Not to mention the fear and hatemongering that's started to spring up at McCain and Palin rallies, ...even with McCain trying to distance himself from it... while running nothing but negative ads practically calling Obama a 'terrorist.'

You bet there's a difference, though. Obama isn't *running* for an 'Imperial Presidency.'

He's not *running* to close out all other voices but his own, even to the point of claiming what 'Christians' must support fiscally or socially, no, he's *running* for President of the United States of America, and that's for all of us.

Ie, unlike a Neocon administration, it's not winner-take all, and the heck with the rest of us.

A Wasted Vote
by Rep. Chuck Baldwin
October 10, 2008

When asked why they will not vote for a third party candidate, many people will respond by saying something like, "He cannot win." Or, "I don't want to waste my vote." It is true: America has not elected a third party candidate since 1860. Does that automatically mean, however, that every vote cast for one of the two major party candidates is not a wasted vote? I don't think so.

In the first place, a wasted vote is a vote for someone you know does not represent your own beliefs and principles. A wasted vote is a vote for someone you know will not lead the country in the way it should go. A wasted vote is a vote for the "lesser of two evils." Or, in the case of John McCain and Barack Obama, what we have is a choice between the "evil of two lessers."

Albert Einstein is credited with saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. For years now, Republicans and Democrats have been leading the country in the same basic direction: toward bigger and bigger government; more and more socialism, globalism, corporatism, and foreign interventionism; and the dismantling of constitutional liberties. Yet, voters continue to think that they are voting for "change" when they vote for a Republican or Democrat. This is truly insane!

Take a look at the recent $850+ billion Wall Street bailout: both John McCain and Barack Obama endorsed and lobbied for it. Both McCain and Obama will continue to bail out these international banksters on the backs of the American taxpayers. Both McCain and Obama support giving illegal aliens amnesty and a path to citizenship. In the debate this past Tuesday night, both McCain and Obama expressed support for sending U.S. forces around the world for "peacekeeping" purposes. They also expressed support for sending combat forces against foreign countries even if those countries do not pose a threat to the United States. Neither Obama nor McCain will do anything to stem the tide of a burgeoning police state or a mushrooming New World Order. Both Obama and McCain support NAFTA and similar "free trade" deals. Neither candidate will do anything to rid America of the Federal Reserve, or work to eliminate the personal income tax, or disband the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Both Obama and McCain support the United Nations. So, pray tell, how is a vote for either McCain or Obama not a wasted vote?

But, back to the "he cannot win" argument: to vote for John McCain is to vote for a man who cannot win. Yes, I am saying it here and now: John McCain cannot win this election. The handwriting is on the wall. The Fat Lady is singing. It is all over. Finished. John McCain cannot win.

With only three weeks before the election, Barack Obama is pulling away. McCain has already pulled his campaign out of Michigan. In other key battleground states, McCain is slipping fast. He was ahead in Missouri; now it is a toss-up or leaning to Obama. A couple of weeks ago, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida were all leaning towards McCain, or at least toss-up states. Now, they are all leaning to Obama. Even the longtime GOP bellwether state of Indiana is moving toward Obama. In addition, new voter registrations are at an all-time high, and few of them are registering as Republicans. In fact, the Republican Party now claims only around 25% of the electorate, and Independents are increasingly leaning toward Obama.

Ladies and gentlemen, Barack Obama is headed for an electoral landslide victory over John McCain. John McCain can no more beat Barack Obama than Bob Dole could beat Bill Clinton.

I ask, therefore, Are not conservatives and Christians who vote for John McCain guilty of the same thing that they accuse people who vote for third party candidates of doing? Are they not voting for someone who cannot win? Indeed, they are. In fact, conservatives and Christians who vote for John McCain are not only voting for a man who cannot win, they are voting for a man who does not share their own beliefs and principles. If this is not insanity, nothing is!

So, why not (for once in your life, perhaps) cast a vote purely for principle! Vote for someone who is truly pro-life. Someone who would quickly secure our nation's borders, and end the invasion of our country by illegal aliens. Someone who would, on his first day in office, release Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean and fire U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton. Someone who would immediately, upon assuming office, begin leading the charge to dismantle the Federal Reserve, overturn the 16th Amendment, expunge the IRS, and return America to sound money principles. Someone who would get the US out of the UN. Someone who would stop spending billions and trillions of dollars for foreign aid. Someone who would prosecute the Wall Street bankers who defrauded the American people out of billions of dollars. Someone who would work to repeal NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, the WTO, and stop the NAFTA superhighway. Someone who would say a resounding "No" to the New World Order. Someone who would stop using our brave men and women in uniform as global cops for the United Nations. Someone who would stop America's global adventurism and interventionism. Someone who would steadfastly support and defend the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

"Who is this person?" you ask. Go here to find out:

http://www.baldwin08.com/

As John Quincy Adams said, "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

Dear Globalone:

Do you care to offer any insights as regards Sarah Palin's open-armed embrace of the Alaska Independence Party?

Would you please be so kind as to share some insights as regards Govenor Palin's level of governmental competency in the wake of Stephen Branchflower's Troopergate investigation?

Foolish to call Obama inexperienced when he has slightly more experience than Lincoln had. Interesting how the republicans overlook this. But then, they do overlook truths they think are inconvenient...

Foolish to try and call Obama inexperienced when Mccain's 'experience' didn't seem to help him pick a running mate who's only experienced in sports-newsreading, scary Fundamentalism, and nepotism.

And we just had eight years of Bush, ...whatever experience he had apart from tanking companies and being handed another, hasn't exactly brought competence.

Experience doesn't help if you refuse to learn anything.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/guilt-by-associations_b_133758.html

This is a very good article by Michael Luz who gives a 10 reasons list of associates and supporters of McCain and Palin which makes any Ayers/Rezko/Wright associations of Obama's look even more underwhelming that they already are.

I hardly think Obama's relative inexperience is the problem Republicans believe. Bush was not inexperienced except in morals and ethics. All of McCain's so-called experience in government haven't given him any vision of how to help this country for the future. In fact the only thing he has done for our future is give us Sarah Palin- but that's a nightmare, not a vision.

Athena,

You are truly clueless. Using your logic, the election should be held to determine the cabinet members, not the President. Is it your contention that no experience is necessary because the President sits back in his chair and merely picks the best option provided to him by experts in their chosen field?

The President of the United States is the Leader of the most important country in the world. As such, his position is significantly more involved than rubber stamping initiatives approved by Warren Buffet. If that weren't the case, why would we care if the Democratic candidate was Hillary or Nobama? Isn't it safe to assume that both candidates would surround themselves with intelligent people voicing sensible alternatives?

What the President needs to be is a visionary. He needs to tell his people where we need to get to and then let them figure out the best way. In that respect, he also needs to already understand the consequences that certain actions will bring based on past results.

Nobama, I'm afraid, will be making serious mistakes, on the job, simply because he hasn't gone through the pains of making them already. Unfortunately, he'll be making these mistakes while steering the biggest ship in the world.

BEWARE THE WARREN HARDING EFFECT.

Globalone:

"So far, Obama has kept still about Phil Gramm"

Is it because Joe Biden and Bill Clinton both voted in favor of the banking deregulation bill? While McCain voted "For" the original bill, he abstained from voting on the final bill. In other words, you could say he pulled an "Obama".

I doubt that's the reason, don't you? It is no secret that dereg global was Clinton's. WE all know. I don't think that's the reason. I'm no dualist, and rarely in history have their been angels and devils at war. I don't think Obama walks on water. If you think their is something else McCain may have, let me know.

Two years out of college? Obama is about 25 years out of college. He may not be experienced in running a state, but George W. Bush was - and look where it's gotten us.

Do you honestly think that Obama will be doing it on his own? No. He's the type of person who surrounds himself with the smartest people in the country, and listen to their counsel. Warren Buffett is his main economic advisor - and nobody can say that HE doesn't have experience! Nobody can claim that Joe Biden doesn't have experience in foreign policy!

Go slither back to shouting racial epithets at Sarah Palin's fascist rallies.

Farnaz,

"So far, Obama has kept still about Phil Gramm"

Is it because Joe Biden and Bill Clinton both voted in favor of the banking deregulation bill? While McCain voted "For" the original bill, he abstained from voting on the final bill. In other words, you could say he pulled an "Obama".

"That's the only argument he has against Obama that holds weight--earmarks"

Actually, the fact that Nobama doesn't have nearly the requisite amount of experience to lead the most important nation in the world is extremely discomforting. Now, I will completely retract that statement if any Nobama supporters can document a current CEO/CFO of a Fortune 500 company that achieved that position two years out of college. BTW: Don't bother looking because the person doesn't exist. And for good reason.

BEWARE THE WARREN HARDING EFFECT.

See in the news McCain shouted down by his own constituents in Wisconson - when he dared refer to Obama as a decent man. Not only are voters vastly underinformed about the candidates, they just plain believe what they want to believe, and evidence to the contrary be damned.

What goes around comes around - when you set the dogs of hell loose with your own pit bull, they will turn on you, the minute you stop showing your fangs and decide inadvisedly to take a break from being 'the biggest, meanest dog on the block'.

He is traveling the all-white, ultra-conservative circuit in the frozen North.....and these folks are very well armed. This part of the country offers a particularly virulent sub-species of McCainite.

The Aryan militia types and white supremists are not necessarily found exclusively down South. They often prefer the frozen tundra and high mountain passes of the North and West. It is worrisome that some of these folks have an extremely dangerous mindset and are very well organized. This is the environment that spawned Timothy McVeigh, among other like-minded anti-social types.

In the mean time, Sarah Palin it finally outed as the manipulative little power monger that she always seemed to be. She is far more Bush-like than the once decent John McCain could ever be.
He shot himself in the foot with that selection, and now he's reaping the whirlwind.

Palin has been found guilty of violating a state ethics law. Really, what more need be said. The Ayers business and Obama is nonsense.

So far, Obama has kept still about Phil Gramm, and my guess he will continue to. I don't like to tempt the evil eye, but it doesn't seem that McCain has much of a chance.

Maybe, the other McCain, the one of McCain Kennedy, of McCain Feingold, the one who fought pork barrel spending again and again will return.
That's the only argument he has against Obama that holds weight--earmarks.

The rest does not. I suspect Wiccan was right when she said that Pods crawled out from under McCain's bed and replaced John with the entity we now see before us.

Though never of McCainian kind, I mourn the departure of the Senator, I partially knew.

Can you not even *imagine* this stuff as more than some kind of magical binding spell, CCNL?

I'm talking about... Yes, let's look at this irrational anger and naked hate being fanned by the GOP candidates. And in ourselves, and those around us, not let it spread.

I think Pagans and Christians both have the tools to do *that.*

There is only one answer to all of this, a good Wiccan spell cast over the mouths of the candidates and their supporters!!!! Or maybe the distribution of holy water and/or rosaries. They also have power to heal wagging tongues.

"This is getting perilously close to a horrific internecine situation. Republican mob situations - what next, after death threats from the crowd? Nooses? Sheets and burning crosses? Is that the best McCain can do? So, be afraid, of course. But be angry too. I am."

It's natural to feel the emotions, Arminius, when one sees this sort of thing coming out, ...of course, McCain and Palin didn't *invent* them, but definitely seem to have chosen to fan those embers. As such, they need to be called to account, and we as a nation certainly should stand up and say no.

Best be careful how one uses or indulges fear and anger, onesself, though. Fighting fire with fire is a tricky business at best.

We shouldn't be in denial of these distinctly-scary and in fact, anger-inducing tactics on the GOP's part, but then again, among people in our society, courage and calm are called for. The brushfires these rallies threaten are better contained if they aren't surrounded by dry ground, if you know what I mean.

They'll burn themselves out if they don't *spread,* you see. They're a symptom of certain promises and assumptions proving to have gone wrong. People's religious identities, not to mention a lot of economic futures, were wound all up in these GOP promises, ...seeing them implode, 'just like the libruls warned' ..well, some egoes are bound to get desperate.

Going back to one of the original core ideas that Starhawk offered---the spotlight of political races that digs up every piece of dirt on a candidate---here is an analysis of Barack Obama's dealings with William Ayres that allows for the kind of detail that is filtered out by the barbeque media:

. . . .McCain says in an Internet ad that the two "ran a radical 'education' foundation" in Chicago. But the supposedly "radical" group was supported by a Republican governor and included on its board prominent local civic leaders, including one former Nixon administration official who has given $1,500 to McCain's campaign this year. Education Week says the group's work "reflected mainstream thinking" among school reformers. The group was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, started by a $49 million grant from the Annenberg Foundation, which was established by the publisher Walter Annenberg, a prominent Republican whose widow, Leonore, is a contributor to the McCain campaign. . . .

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

I suppose the ultra-paranoid [or defensive] right can point to the Annenberg Foundation's support of "FactCheck.Org" as part of a vast left-wing conspiracy. I see it as the inevitable result of so much money being in the hands of only a few---usually Republican--- people. Still it is wise to remember that the handful of meetings where Obama and Ayres were sitting together were bankrolled by a Republican who gave donations to McCain.

I wonder if Obama had been accused by his own state government with abusing his power, would he still be taken seriously? This is a double standard. Palin was accused by her own Alaska government with abuse of power, yet she has made no public statement so far about this. She enlisted her husband in this abuse of power, how will she respond, if at all to that. After all, the Alaskan Seperatist Party is a party that hates America, and they are too close for comfort.

Hi, Paganplace,

Kennedy is right. The constant treason of the AIP makes the few moments of Wright's rants look like preschool sandbox insults.

This is getting perilously close to a horrific internecine situation. Republican mob situations - what next, after death threats from the crowd? Nooses? Sheets and burning crosses? Is that the best McCain can do? So, be afraid, of course. But be angry too. I am.

For instance, here's a little brief from Robert Kennedy, about that Alaskan independence party Palin has ties to:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/alaskan-independence-part_b_133261.html

It cannot be denied, John McCain has morphed into a gutless sycophant.

In 2000, when he had the guts to speak out, he was defeated by a backstabbing campaign run by Bush and Rove. He has now hired the very people who engineered that, and kissed Bush's a**.

Also in 2000, he properly described the religious right as agents of intolerance. Now, he genuflects to them and shamelessly grovels for their support.

In 2004, he properly denounced the swiftboat pack of lies. He has now hired the person who engineered that.

In 2006, a hugely decent man, Harold Ford Jr, an Afro-American, was defeated in his run for a senate seat in Tennessee. This was largely due to a despicable racist TV ad run by his GOP opponent. McCain has hired the person who did this ad.

And now, the rallies of McWorse and the Trailer Trash of the Tundra are showing signs of mob violence. Does the GOP candidate decry this? No.

We don't need another political zombie in the oval office.

Am I pissed off? You betcha......

There's a difference between knowing someone and being beholden or changing or defining policies by them. McCain actually seeking out ties with Hagee, for instance, and changing his positions, even against torture, in a vote to suit... Likewise, actively using his influence on behalf of the S&L crooks.... and generally serving their interests with the endless deregulation that got us into the present mess, all while running on an image that doesn't match up with history...

That's different from a smear.

So following the lead of Jesus, John McCain was trying to correct the sinning Mr. Keating???

Ditto for Barack Obama as he was trying to bring the "light" to Reverend Wright, Ayers and Rezko???

Ditto for Sarah Palin as she listened to and was "blessed" by a misguided Rev. Muthee.

And Joe Biden has no odd and/or sinning friends???

But he does!!!www.suntimes.com/news/metro/rezko/1124666,CST-NWS-rezko25.article

"Biden has deep ties to Rezko accomplice --

JOSEPH CARI | 30-year friend of VP pick guilty in kickback scheme"

Bottom line: All four candidates have lived up to the example of the simple preacher man aka Jesus by "eating" with some "sinners".

The rolling Stone article was factual. And documented. Moreover, if you want a really clear idea of how "heroic" McCain is, read the section on th fire on the Forrestral. It was always all about him. all the McCain campaign has is innuendo, misdirection, outright lies. they throw all these names out of people Obama knows- I googled them. Many of them were born in Arab countries, grew up here, and accomplished amazing things. Yes Rezko was indicted for fraud, he served his time. take a look at all he has done for charity, all the honors he had received. Obama's college roommates? One is a head honcho for Pepsico, the other an independent financial manager, both in NYC. NOT Arab terrorists in the middle east as the viral email from the republicans would have you believe. And Obama- he bought a strip of land from Rezko that was adjacent to his property. How is this a problem to any but the most paranoid or partisan mind?

As for Ayers? the man spent the lat 30+ years redeeming himself in society (and here I thought Christians believed in the power of redemption). Obama met him while serving on the same board. Obama did not give Ayers creds- Ayers got his own long before he met him. If everyone else seems to have felt Ayers paid his dues, why should it be Obama's place to judge him?

Really, Global, an expose of McCain's misrepresentations of the very history, record, and character he claims to be running on isn't supposed to be 'balanced' with what Fox News want to let him say.

This is a guy who is running *no* non-negative ads, and trying to make people afraid of the black candidate over working for the same charity as a by-then-long-reformed 60's radical. How 'terroristic' is that supposed to be?

Meanwhile, his rallies turn to hate-fests, and he has no real substantive policies to speak of.

Dear Globalone,

I rather doubt that anything else I say will make me any more endearing in your eyes. My parents were activists. They were involved in many acts of civil disobedience during the civil rights era. The mere fact of Barack Obama's presidential campaign getting as far as it has so far is a tribute to their efforts.

There's a phrase of George Orwell's that applies to both my parents and myself---left of the left. Gandhi was left of the left. The Rev. Martin Luther King was left of the left. Starhawk is left of the left. I perceive war as an obscenity. I have already heard all the counter arguments of holding freedoms dear, freedom isn't free, we need a strong military and so on. I'm not buying. If you understand that then there really is no more need of discussion.

In any case I would not say that John McCain's bombing missions were cakewalks, I'm aware that there is a particular skill set involved. I realize that simply keeping a jet bomber aloft requires a very high level of skill, and that the risks involved in a bombing raid are much higher. But as I consider the war as conducted in Vietnam as an obscenity, you can clearly see that I would not consider arial bombardment as an act of heroism. Any attempt to convince me otherwise is doomed to failure. What the Rolling Stone article points out [sure, call it a hit piece, but remember---these people are willing to go on record] is that it is very unlikely that John McCain would have gone as far as he did in the military without family connections. If it were not for his family connections he would have never become a "Top Gun", the defining narrative of his life as far as most people are concerned. This reminds me a great deal of George W. Bush, a man that I perceive as the very antithesis of a hero.

I am not a Christian but I have always admired those Christians that saw fit to protest war and injustice in a nonviolent fashion. As my parents did. As Starhawk does. Those are my people. That sort of direct action is my definition of heroism.

Gladerunner,

Yeah, I know my name-calling of Palin is just that. It is a reaction to those of the right that really sanctify her, and a reaction to the name-calling of those who think Obama is the antichrist. I am aware that my reaction ain't exactly proper, and is certainly not civil discourse. Yet I find that any attempt to have a reasonable discussion with these right-wingers almost always ends in disaster. But now always, and I am still willing to try it.

Robin,

Let me clue you in to what "fair and balanced" doesn't mean. When you write an article that systematically gives every detail and context to a person's failings and then turn around and gloss over their successes as if they are immaterial. I have no issue with reporting facts, but painting McCain to be some bumbling, drunk, crop duster is absurd and idiotic.

The fact that his five bombing missions over North Vietnam is a cake walk to you is disturbing on many levels, but not surprising given your other posts.

My suggestion? Visit your local air force base and ask the pilots how insignificant five bombing missions over enemy terrority is? Don't forget to let them know that you think it's not a big deal and anyone should be able to do it.

Better yet . . maybe you can find a family of a pilot that was KIA (Korean War, Vietnam War, Iraq War - your choice) and ask them why he/she was so inept at being a pilot.

Arminius&paganplace:
PP:"encouragement of naked hate at Mccain and Palin rallies"
A: "What next from these mobs? Nooses? White sheets and burning crosses? Are McWorse and the Trailer Trash of the Tundra "

Nooses, burning crosses, 'Trailer trash of the tundra'.. classy... there's no spite or hate here . . .

Both major candidates and their ferret-like lackies look and sound just alike to an outsider.. Why can't you guys stick with issues and positive messages like you said you would? Just look at yourselves... you've been reduced to playground style namecalling and nanny-nanny-boo-boo over such minor trivialities..

Hmmm,

"While Jesus was having dinner at Levi's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

This passage from the NT passes the necessary attestation and stratum testing of most historic Jesus exegetes.

e.g.

"(1) P. Oxy. 1224, 2 v ii, lines 1-7
(2a) Mark 2:13-17a = Matt 9:9-12 = Luke 5:27-31
(2b) GEbi. 1c
(2c) Luke 15:1-2

Crossan analysis:
Item: 113
Stratum: I (30-60 CE)
Attestation: Double
Historicity: +

So following the lead of Jesus, John McCain was trying to correct the sinning Mr. Keating???

And Barack Obama was trying to bring the "light of white" to Reverend Wright???

And Sarah Palin was absorbing the spells of Pastor Muthee to set him free???

And Joe Biden has no odd and/or sinning friends???

But he does!!!www.suntimes.com/news/metro/rezko/1124666,CST-NWS-rezko25.article

"Biden has deep ties to Rezko accomplice --

JOSEPH CARI | 30-year friend of VP pick guilty in kickback scheme"

Hi, Paganplace,
You said,
"I'm glad someone's mentioned what's become a frightening concern: the prevalence and even encouragement of naked hate at Mccain and Palin rallies... It's a disgrace to the nation."

Yes, this is gut-level scary. Being a liberal from the South, I began having very bad thoughts. What next from these mobs? Nooses? White sheets and burning crosses? Are McWorse and the Trailer Trash of the Tundra willy-nilly fomenting mob violence? And neither had the simple human decency to call it down. Now we truly know what the alternatives are.

GLOBALONE: "Thanks for the article by Rolling Stone. It was about as fair and balanced as Keith Olberman or Fox News."

Lots of folks are speaking on the record in the RS article. The reality is that our political opinions are fueled by the propaganda we absorb. It's a simple fact that the Mainstream Media outlets are in the tank for "anyone but Obama" because of all the business interests that they and John McCain have been working for all these years. Thus the MSM's constant repetition of "William Ayres", and the failure to first state that he is/was part of the Annenberg Foundation, a group founded by a right-wing billionaire. Thus McCain's obsession wth de-regulation, a simple matter of public record. "Fair and Balanced" [tm.] does not mean "we have a counter argument to anything you say and we intend to talk over whatever you're saying to keep pumping out that message." It means that some arguments do not have a morally valid counter-argument. It's only fair to note that---Yes Indeed, John McCain flew ONLY 5 missions before being blown out of the sky and destroyed at least two planes before that. It's a matter of competence, it's a matter of what's on the actual record. It's a matter of the truth preempting morally vacant counter-arguments. It's called speaking truth to power.

I'm glad someone's mentioned what's become a frightening concern: the prevalence and even encouragement of naked hate at Mccain and Palin rallies... It's a disgrace to the nation.

Robinlandseadel:

Thanks for the article by Rolling Stone. It was about as fair and balanced as Keith Olberman or Fox News.

Interesting how the author is so painstakingly detailed on each of John's training mishaps that you get the distinct impression that McCain has barely the ability to take off and land properly. The author then hastily moves to the Vietnam war where John is shot down on his SIXTH bombing mission. SIXTH, mind you.

So . . . McCain can't figure out a way to keep a plane from crashing during routine training flights but all of a sudden he's performing successful bombing missions in enemy territory?

Give me a break.

Winston Churchill was right. The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

For all of you "We need Change but have no clue what kind of Change" lemmings out there . . . BEWARE THE WARREN HARDING EFFECT.

Starhawk: "In both his foreign policy and his campaign style, McCain seems to define honor as winning, regardless of the cost or the means."

Wrapping himself in the flag, John McCain has been playing the role of the martyred soldier. In real life, even his martyrdom is bogus. Read Tim Dickinson's "Make Believe Maverick" from this week's "Rolling Stone":

". . . .the subsequent tale of McCain's mistreatment — and the transformation it is alleged to have produced — are both deeply flawed. The Code of Conduct that governed POWs was incredibly rigid; few soldiers lived up to its dictate that they "give no information . . . which might be harmful to my comrades." Under the code, POWs are bound to give only their name, rank, date of birth and service number — and to make no "statements disloyal to my country."

Soon after McCain hit the ground in Hanoi, the code went out the window. "I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital," he later admitted pleading with his captors. McCain now insists the offer was a bluff, designed to fool the enemy into giving him medical treatment. In fact, his wounds were attended to only after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a Navy admiral. What has never been disclosed is the manner in which they found out: McCain told them. . ."

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

There's much more and it only gets worse. The Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain tells of John McCain's coverup of the real info concerning his years as a POW, covering up the records of hundreds of POWs and MIAs to keep a tight lid on what this self described "maverick" was doing in the Hanoi Hilton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g

Starhawk: "What impact did that relationship have on the candidate's ideas and programs or behavior?"

Yes indeedy---the very first thing that comes to mind is Sarah Palin's association with the Alaska Independence Party.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., in a blistering article in the Huffington Post, exposes Sarah Palin's ongoing involvement with a homegrown terrorist organization. Palin may have been a member of this secessionist organization, with ties to other far-right white supremacist groups in the U.S. Her husband, Todd Palin, was a member until recently. Even this year Sarah Palin made a speech welcoming the opening of the AIP convention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvPNXYrIyI

The mainstream media, with the noble exceptions of Keith Olbermann and the brilliant Rachel Maddow, won't touch it. Meanwhile, it's all Ayres all the time. It's no wonder that this country in going into the crapper. Welcome to the Weimar Republic.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/alaskan-independence-part_b_133261.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/10/uselections2008-sarahpalin1

McCain and Palin are creating a dangerous atmosphere for Obama. People are screaming comments like traitor, treason, socialist, communist, terrorist, kill him, and off with his head at their rallies. Do they (McCain and Palin)really believe Obama is a terrorist? Or are they resorting to the last tactic that they have, subliminally introducing race into politics to achieve a political goal? Someone out there could be planning to assasinate Obama as I write this blog because of the "HATE" campaign they are running now. McCain and Palin are dividing the country right now and I fear the 60's era paranoia has returned. This was the same atmosphere that got Kennedy and King killed. Do we really want this to happen again? If Obama was a terrorist in these post 911 times. Wouldn't the FBI and Homeland Security be investigating him and have him on their terror watch list? America wake up!!! McCain and Palin are not Federal agents. They are willing to destroy this country to win an election when our economy is in the worst crisis it has been in a long time. People are mentally unstable. And a Race war is right around the corner. I thought America was better than this.

I agree most heartily. That last line bears repeating: "The most important company a candidate keeps is that of her or his own conscience." Thanks, Starhawk, for a great essay.