U.S. Must Earn Respect With Consistent Values

It is obvious that a strong Wiccan spell is needed to bring all these diverse groups together.

If that does not work, there is always the Five Steps to Deprogram/"Deflaw" the various religions.

e.g. for Islam

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith", a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

Starhawk.

I couldn't get past "...and Timothy-McVeigh survivalist bombers." Yes, indeed, a "Timothy-McVeigh" is born every minute, here in the good 'ol U.S.

Disingenuous, even dishonest, from a nice girl like you.

Say, when did McVeigh begin hyphenating his name?

Before we executed him, or afterward?

Paganplace,

My reference to bell curves has nothing to do with moral relativism. I'm referring to continuous probability distributions of where people fall along the spectra referred to in the commentary. More specifically, I'm suggesting that the distribution of people these days up near the religious-ultraviolence end of the scale (and thus the shape of the overall bell curve) seems noticeably different, shall we say, along the Islamic spectrum compared to the Christian one. (I cite Christianity simply because it was cited in the commentary.) What - if anything - is to be made of this is what I'm asking the author. You can answer too, of course.

I don't understand your take on Gaza; it's not clear to me who, you think, is doing what to whom there. With regard to Bush's "crimes", you've basically just repeated a vague and tendentious allegation without substantiating it. Far be it from me to defend the man, but equally far to relieve his accusers of the burden of proof.

You say that "Violence doesn't solve anything". That seems obviously false, and not just for those trifling but pesky immediate problems (which you concede) of people shooting missiles at you. What exactly do you mean by it?

"Attempts to hold Israel accountable will undoubtedly be met by screeches of outrage and accusations of anti-Semitism. But friends don't let friends commit war crimes! Israel's true security lies in a global return to respect for international law, in which the U.S. must lead the way and Israel must follow."

I heard you on that one.

"But let me ask you this: along the spectrum you suggest, do you attribute any significance to the fact that the two religions seem to have a naturally different "bell curve"?"

What, I thought they both decried 'Moral relativism.'

Now they grade on a curve?

Ah. Guess it *is* all 'Pass/fail' with the both of youse. :)

Yes, Climacus, the Bush administration did commit crimes. If they weren't crimes, they wouldn't be trying to rewrite the *laws* to make em OK.

It's *nice* to believe that the 'morally righteous' can always like, send in Steven Segall to take out the bad guys and their rocket launchers without hurting any civilians, but whoever you are. If you want to complain about the relative nobility of rocket attacks, don't hide in civilian neighborhoods, then from there shoot explosives at someone else's kids.

Kind of like pre-Bush Iraq. Saddam ever said, 'Hey, boys, go drop some clusterbombs on those uppity Kurds,' The U.N. could send up *our* boys, to say, 'Rejected.'

This latest Gaza thing, there's no high ground. No honor, no glory. Just ugly.

Violence, the point is, doesn't solve anything. Except maybe the immediate problem of someone shooting a missile at you.

Someone picks a fight by using their neighbor's kids for political 'human shields' while shooting at someone *else's* kids, well. They made the situation.

They better own it. Cause 'morality' is already out the window.

There are better ways.

The notion that "the Muslim world" is not monolithic is an axiom of U.S. foreign policy and has been for some time. Indeed, it was a theme that the prior Administration stressed since immediately after 9/11. Tell us something we didn't already know.

Also, what is your proof that Israel intentionally targets civilians, as you have alleged, or otherwise has committed "war crimes"? Similar allegations have been consistently discredited or found lacking in proof.

As an aside, while I understand the point of the allusion to Timothy McVeigh, for the record he was a self-professed nonbeliever who did not commit theologically motivated crimes. Yes, neither Christianity nor Islam is monolithic. But let me ask you this: along the spectrum you suggest, do you attribute any significance to the fact that the two religions seem to have a naturally different "bell curve"?

FARNAZ2:
"But the US is committing War Crimes in both Iraq and Afghanistan."

Yup, and don't forget Northern California. Getting "Camped" ain't exactly a Swiss picnic.

"Are we friends of the US?"

We are the US.

Paradox is everywhere. Peace happens on a person to person basis and while some can do more than others, no one person can do everything, no one person can wave a magic wand over years of retribution and end generations of mutual hate. I was lucky enough to witness the easing up of some of the more blatant attacks on brown peoples in this country, but certain other sorts of brown people in other countries got tagged by the previous administration as easy targets. Time alone will tell. Your point is valid in obvious ways.

PAGANPLACE:
"Imbolc's coming up, ....probably, if I dare say so, among the most obscure of Pagan hlidays..."

You must mean Brigid---everyone knew her as Nancy:] The first taste of spring. I always notice.

"But friends don't let friends commit war crimes!"

But the US is committing War Crimes in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Are we friends of the US? How do we stop it?

"But friends don't let friends commit war crimes!"

LOL & Right On!

Song below by a group called 'VNV nation.'

'To the Gods whose names we've lost, and the names who gave in vain.' :)

Perhaps, it's be a good night to welcome the dawn. :)

Does come, you know. Everybody knows. Few, surprisingly few, I've noticed, trouble to stay up through the darkness and really greet Her. Isn't that funny, though?

Imbolc's coming up, ....probably, if I dare say so, among the most obscure of Pagan hlidays... Kind of like our Diwali, in that it's much about light coming into darknesss, Light in the very dark of winter, where y ancestors came from, anyway. ...Also nice cause no one really knows about it, even Pagans don't really know how.

This one's about the light. Seems most of our holidays have long since been appropriated or demonized, in all the forms they came from

This one's quiet. This one's ours. like Dawn is to those who have just *once* in their life stayed up to greet her, rather than waking bewildered every morning that for some reason life goes on.

Groundhogs, and preferably top hats, actually, can handle the rest, I say. Karmic repetitions, as always, intructive but optional. :)

And it's been very, very, dark, lately. So dark, in fact, that I'm not sure we all remember what used to be called 'ordinary daylight' was really like.

Could be, I've been in this city too long, but it's been a while since it was really, actually physically so dark as this. Rarely, among other people can we be so bathed in ..darkness Just not full of reflected streetlights and noise and maybe, chatter.

Tis, in fact, the depth of darkness, here in this groundhog den.

Perhaps, if we find our ways out, and can recognize our own shadows, we could have an early Spring.

Spiritually-speaking, of course. So,hail to that Lady of song and flame. Also the turning year, and to gentlemen in top hats in Pennsylvania helping out with that as best they can.

Also groundhogs. :)

Also life.

Als not repeating it too much. Good comedy. Not so good interfaith and foreign policy.

Dig? :)

And the band played on...

"Sever the line to the guilty past.
To the ones who brought us nothing
Spoke of futures brave and proud
And brought only hate and war.

With this line I'll mark the past
As a symbol of beginning.
I have no doubt, from what I've seen
I have never wanted more. "

There has been death threats arising in Pakistan to a Mumbai comedian who has included in his piece the Mumbai Muslim Mafia don who lives in luxury in Pakistan under state protection, although India has asked for him to be extradited.

Pakistanis claim that the terror attack was not planned in Pakistan although the terrorist who was caught alive has given detailed information to his Pakistani credentials which have been independently verified even by British media. Phone calls made by his boss in Pakistan during the hotel siege in Mumbai have been tracked by intelligence.

In keeping with its reputation as a military dictatorship, Pakistan continues to buy weapons and arm itself to the teeth while playing the victim and begging for more money.

The India-Pakistan partition led to the greatest movement of peoples in the shortest period of time in human history. Around 20 million people moved residences within months and over a million lost their lives in the mayhem and massacres that followed. The nationalist Hindu RSS blamed Mahatma Gandhi for the partition, although India was not his to divide up. India was not yet free and it was the British who gave in to British trained Jinnah's demands. Mahatma Gandhi wanted to appease the Muslims and avoid partition, so he had suggested that Jinnah be made the first Prime Minister of India. The others in the Party did not agree considering two thirds of the Indian population was Hindu and many non-Muslims had been pivotal in the struggle for independence, not least of Mahatma Gandhi himself and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, whose family was Brahmins from Kashmir. An "ex" -RSS member assassinated Mahatma Gandhi on 30 January 1948, within five and half months of getting independence.
While Pakistan has remained a military dictatorship for almost all of its 62 years as an independent nation, with only brief gaps of civilian rule, India has tried to work out a democracy, with currently 1.2 billion people, who speak different languages, have different culture and follow different religions. India is the nation that needs to be supported as it struggles to live according to the principles of secular democracy. Yet Pakistan has created a bogeyman of India to justify its own military dictatorship. What better story to tell the people than to present India as an enemy that needs to be fought constantly. Pakistani people have suffered because they have had to choose between military dictators and corrupt feudalists. They have chosen military dictators most of the time.
When all the money that Pakistan is given in aid either goes to the military top brass or the feudalist civilians, how does it help to pump more money down the same hole? Why not help the military dictatorship of Burma or North Korea too? They too have civilian populations who are suffering.

Here a brief history of India and Pakistan for your reflection. After 200 years of British colonial rule, before India was about to be granted independence, the result of non-violent movement of Mahatma Gandhi and the other members of the Indian National Congress Party, a few Indian Muslims who feared they would lose the power they held before India became a British colony (large parts of India was under Muslim rule for nearly 300 years, although India still consisted of small independent kingdoms at that stage and it was the British who gave rise to a united British Raj) demanded a separate country based on religion alone. One third of the Indian population (which included Pakistan and Bangladesh) was Muslim at that point, 1947, and the British had kept all united for nearly 200 years. The militant Hindu nationalists, RSS (the mother of the current Sangh Parivar), was an underground organization during the freedom struggle. The British decided to give in to the demand of British trained Indian Muslim, Jinnah. Thus Pakistan was born a few hours before India was given independence. This was to ensure that India did not consider Pakistan part of her territory. However rulers of states were given the freedom to join with Pakistan or India. The Hindu ruler of Kashmir, who wanted to remain independent of India and Kashmir changed his mind and opted for India when Pakistan invaded his kingdom to annexe it for Pakistan on the grounds Muslims lived there. Many Kashmiri Hindus have been killed or driven out. Pakistan considers Kashmir its territory based on religion alone. This issue has not been sorted out yet. There is a Pakistan occupied Kashmir and there is an Indian Jammu and Kashmir. Although 62% of the Indian Kashmiri population participated in a free and fair election recently as part of Indian democracy, Pakistan is convinced Kashmir needs to be "liberated," (read: annexed to Pakistan). Pakistan occupied Kashmir has remained the breeding ground for terrorists for a very long time. Pakistan has been engaged in under and over the radar war with India for decades, all in the name of religion the people in Kashmir happen to follow. "Bleed India to death with a thousand cuts" has been the official policy of one of its military dictators.

It is a mystery why Pakistan does not claim Afghanistan because Muslims live there. Or Indonesia, or Saudi Arabia or any number of countries where there is a Muslim majority.