Better Question: Why Does Evil Exist?

Apologies. Wrong window, my last was. :)

And, to speak of credentials, let's see here....

"Biola University..."

'Christian-centered 'education.''

Well, now that someone mentioned it:

"http://www.biola.edu/"

What are you *teaching* these fine, clearly unbiased kids about a million Americans, there in LA, these past twenty five I'm-sure productive years, sir?

robinlandseadel:

"May Bob help me."

FARNAZ2:
Me, too.

Who is Bob? :)

J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, head religious icon and sharply dressed good sport of the Church of the Subgenius, casual relative to the Cult of the Discordians.

http://www.subgenius.com/
http://www.discordian.com/what.html

Ah, more posting. Sorry I delayed so long coming back, it's happening more these days, cause I do get tired of it.

Certainly, Farnazz, I don't know where you get off implying anyone's a 'self-hating Jew' or a 'majoritarian' or 'directing anything at black people.' (What?)

I was initially referring to your own apparent prejudice that if there were some Paganistic elements to certain Nazi lunacy for a chosen few, that Abrahamic monotheism can simply deny its role in *centuries* of oppression and go with the 'Now that our anti-semitism is finally-recognized as having been bad, we monotheists need theories about how 'it was all about gay 'Pagans.'

Definitely we've been through that before.

But I think you *are* off-base, there, as well as in many other presumptions you seem to voice, and I think that's why Arminius was saying 'beware.' (And I was, in fact, saying, 'Beware what?')

Definitely, it's a lot easier for Abrahamics to blame some 'Pagan strain' for all not hunky-dory in Abrahamics' history toward each other.

Mind you, I've no reason to believe I haven't been one before, and strictly speaking, by the odds, I might well be raised that way again. So no one here is out to hurt you. Or 'hates themselves' if they see things differently, now. In fact, the same demonizations hurt *everyone.*

You know we don't typically care much for right-wing regimes, but I hope you also know we take particular exception to xenophobia. In any form.

The reason I said that you were off base here is that this wasn't the place for bringing all this up. You seemed to be blaming Paganplace for saying things that she never said. Barking up the wrong 'tree-hugger', if you will. She is a little hard to follow from time to time and it takes some digging- I really think you read something into something she said that wasn't actually there.

"Because Pagan or not, when and if S hits the fan, you may well be Jewish again, not necessarily in your view, but your view isn't the one that counts. Therein lies the problem."

I accept that, and understand that. It's why I can't completely ditch my family ties or where I came from. I am glad I was raised Jewish- never had the fear of hell scared into me and never had to wrestle with the whole Jesus questions.

What if the victims become perpetrators? It happens all the time with abuse? This was the question I wrestled with knowing I'd be one of the first targets if it ever came to pass.

It's part of the myriad of reasons why I cannot identify with the community. I don't share that. But the ones who are shouting the loudest about antisemitism tend to be the ones who only see violence as the only solution. Keep in mind, I don't lump all Jews in with that.

What really concerns me is that it's so easy to cry victim-nobody has to actually DO anything- but please answer this for me- If anti-semitism disappeared tomorrow, and the Jews had nothing to fight against- what then would it mean to be Jewish in these times? Forcing Jewish people to marry other Jews that they may not want to just to keep the 'race' alive? My family tried that with me. Just so happened the only Jewish guy I knew and really got along well with came out of the closet years later.

For me, living around people who survived the Shoah was proof enough for me that I could not worship any deity that would sit back and allow their 'chosen ones' to be murdered en masse.

I ask honestly, because I couldn't find a satisfactory answer for this. I've heard this also from young Jewish children too. It seems like all they know is that they're destined to be victims and that people they don't know hate them for reasons they don't understand and don't experience a lot of the of the benefits.

You'll find that Pagans and Wiccans are not the problem here. Most Pagans will gladly fight alongside anyone who will allow others to practice and live as they choose.
So I work, every day, to try to make myself better. If I can do something good for someone they might later learn of either my Jewish background or current Paganism that might make them think twice about their perceptions of both groups. To me, that is a LOT more powerful than just coming on a blog and calling people antisemitic.

The only people we can change is us- and I think it might be that we are going to have to be better, more caring, charitable, giving, etc people, making small changes in our communities that hopefully may lead to bigger ones in the future. We may have to be the ones to say 'how much of this situation do we own and what can be done about it?' to make things better. It's got to be more about what we *DO* than about what we say.

"'The problem is that there has been a horrible oppression of certain minorities by the majority and it continues."

We know.'"

I'm aware of that. It's clear in my posts that I recognize the oppression of Pagans and Gays since I mention it.

"For those who identify as a 'witch', we do so deliberately, in solidarity with those who died just for being who they are- even though most of them who were killed were other Christians or people who didn't look/act like the rest of society- that the accusers simply wanted out of the way."

____________________
Mokey, maybe you want to give this some thought in light of what you say to me about "perpetuating victimhood." Are you being fair to me and to yourself as a Jew? Because Pagan or not, when and if S hits the fan, you may well be Jewish again, not necessarily in your view, but your view isn't the one that counts. Therein lies the problem.

Solidarity, yes. And may I, too, not have solidarity? With the contemporary European and American Jews I posted on. With the Jews of the Middle East. With the thousands of French Jews who have emigrated to Israel in the last ten years. With the Ethopian Jews walking across Egypt.

With Pagans, with gays, Muslims, with everyone else who needs a voice. But first, Mokie, I must be allowed to have my own.

Scroll down, please, and read my other posts to you. I'm somewhat lost by your comments to me.

Mokey2,

"Farnaz, I think you're way off base here. Raised Jewish myself, I understand where you're coming from- but at what point do a people continue to perpetuate victimhood at the cost of everything else?"

I don't know since I'm not a member of a group that does so. The victimization is visited upon us. We don't visit it upon ourselves.

I suggest you read, starting from the beginning, Elie Wiesel's last thread. On it, you'll find the kind of "victimhood" that is visited upon Jews, who read this, among them children. The Christians, Muslims, et al, are also victimized since racial propaganda does no one any good regardless of who the target is.

Mokey, your remarks are frequently directed at African Americans. People believe they complain too much. They're tired of hearing about slavery, etc.

Now, Mokey, do you share those sentiments?

Many Jews are uncomfortable with Jews like me. They want antisemitism not to be there, so they try to avoid any place, real or virtual where it may show up. Hence, you may not have read the Wiesel post on Holocaust denial, and venomous posts that accompanied it, the panelists' posts on Madoff and the the accompanying vitriol.

Or, you may have read it and chosen not to reply. Be aware, Mokey, that Jewish teens read these threads, too. What message do we send when our children see no defense from us?

In our schools, in schools across America, today, in 2001, Jewish children have pennies thrown at them. It's been on television, albeit not prominently, but it's been there. A very high-ranking military official has published on anti-semitism in the military, and has a web site. Our military.

In Europe--in England, France, Germany, etc.--the governments have advised Jews on how to protect themselves from attack in public. On how to protect themselves. The web site giving this atrocious information was posted on this blog.

Continued

I could go on. Your ask, "[A]t what point do a people continue to perpetuate victimhood at the cost of everything else?"

Shouldn't that question be asked of those who perpetuate the victimization? I wonder, Mokey, that you do not ask it.

I mention, in my last post, Jews who defend everyone else's rights but their own. You might want to reread that section. My goal, Mokey, is to end the victimhood visited upon us, upon all of the us's regardless of race, religion, etc. My goal will not be realized in my lifetime; perhaps it will never be realized.

Mentally, I ask those who blame the victims, even when they are the victims (in denial, of course) how they benefit. Here is a frequent answer in the literature on multiculturalism: Having internalized the aggressor (Anna Freud), they are now free to inscribe themselves as majoritarians, although they aren't of the "majority" and never will be considered members.

In the case of some Jews, as I posted earlier, as I emphasize here, they righteously go about defending every other minority but themselves, thereby earning the contempt not only of those minorities but of the majority.

They are as the eminent scholar Homi Bhabba put it deformed.

As I say to Paganplace, I'm writing to you, not referring to you.

Farnaz

PS. You haven't explained precisely how or where I was "way off base." Can you tell me?

So how do pagans/wiccans, druids, differ from other believers?
Besides the description of less than omnipotent gods & goddesses, how can you state that there is one independent power of good but no independent power of evil? Is this asymmetry based on anything specific?
Posted by: Bios | March 31, 2009 11:10 PM
**************************************************************************************
I can only soeak for my own rather eclectic path, but for me, it isn't about good and evil. There is no one independent source for either. For me, good and evil don't exist as abstractions. It ain't about what you believe, it's about what you DO. It's Karma - you get back what you put out there.
If I behave in way that's harmonious with the other beings with whom I reside on this pretty blue ball, then, as a member of that population, I reap the benefits of that behavior. It's not because I'm following the will of an external entity who is "Good" - it's just a smart way to live within the big picture.
If I behave in a way that's injurious to others, I harm myself in the process. It's not that I'm following the will of an external entity who is "Evil" - it just ain't smart to act in ways that are harmful.

"The problem is that there has been a horrible oppression of certain minorities by the majority and it continues."

We know. For those who identify as a 'witch', we do so deliberately, in solidarity with those who died just for being who they are- even though most of them who were killed were other Christians or people who didn't look/act like the rest of society- that the accusers simply wanted out of the way.

Farnaz, I think you're way off base here. Raised Jewish myself, I understand where you're coming from- but at what point do a people continue to perpetuate victimhood at the cost of everything else?

Paganplace is speaking to the difficulties of trying to correct people on ideas like 'Satan' when a lot of knee-jerk responses from the Christian community (not all, certainly.. but a lot) is that anybody who isn't one by choice has no place in society and often harassed.

She's experienced it as a Pagan, as have I. I still get it as a Jew. And yes, Pagans and Wiccans are imperfect too. Nobody is stating otherwise. We get our fair share of the crazies too.

"So how do pagans/wiccans, druids, differ from other believers?
Besides the description of less than omnipotent gods & goddesses, how can you state that there is one independent power of good but no independent power of evil? Is this asymmetry based on anything specific?"

Nobody said anything about an 'independent' good/evil, etc. I can't speak for anyone other than myself- but I see it as a choice. We have choices everyday whether to act out of fear or act out of love. It's not 'independent' to me because as a pantheist, nothing is independent of Nature, not even the Divine.

I find my divinity everywhere.. which means that I have to take things in before I respond in a knee-jerk fashion. It's about learning about ourselves well enough to know what our triggers are that make us lash out and learning that what we put out comes back to us.

Sometimes it takes us needing harder and harder lessons for us to finally learn what we need to- and when we do, and make adjustments, the next lesson comes along.

For me it's about trying to live in balance with myself and the world around me. If I screw up, which I will/do, I try to seek to make amends in any way I can with those I hurt.

Paganplace:

"Release the hate.

Stop speaking in generalities.

Understand that just as not "all" Muslims are terrorists, neither are "all" Christians. And "all" pagans and Wiccans are not "perfect."

Try seeing individuals, not representatives of some larger organization. Your hatred hurts you more than it helps."

Posted by: GoofyPlatypus | March 31, 2009 5:53 PM
___________________________

I see irony in GoofyPlatypus's post to you when I read it together with your words about me (quoted in my previous post to you--scroll down).

When people prick us, we do bleed--you AND I. So, too, does GoofyPlatypus. We must be permitted to mention the blood--all of us.

The problem is that there has been a horrible oppression of certain minorities by the majority and it continues. It is psychological and physical, at times. Some majority members don't realize they're also majoritarians and refuse to consider the possibility. When you point out to them, no matter how gently that words they're using are offensive, they continue to use them. (They "forget.") But few of those same forgetters forget not to use the work "Negro" when referring to African Americans.

They don't forget because an all out critique, a healthful indoctrination process has been underway for more than forty years in this country, reminding them in one way or another that "Negro" is unacceptable, that anti-black prejudice won't fly. It hasn't ended prejudice against African Americans, but there are things that may not be said and will not be said by liberals and those on the left, by conservatives who are aware.

Not so with us Js. Self-described liberals, leftists, conservatives--you name them say and believe things about Js unthinkable about other groups and so it has been for two thousand years.

So we try educating, then explaining, and then fighting back, and then fighting back in kind--a last resort, absurdly successful, though distasteful. How sad that "in kind" is what so many understand best. And, again, please don't personalize. I'm writing to you, not referring to you.

Farnaz :o

So how do pagans/wiccans, druids, differ from other believers?
Besides the description of less than omnipotent gods & goddesses, how can you state that there is one independent power of good but no independent power of evil? Is this asymmetry based on anything specific?

Paganplace:

"Beware what? What more could Farnazz do to us than claim it wasn't OK to say why we aren't Nazis... "

I think you're being unfair. Never did I call you (or Arminius) a "Nazi." If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do. I think you'll agree that I have the same rights as a Jew that you do as a Pagan and as a gay woman. You've seen me post again and again on this blog in the strongest possible terms on behalf of gay rights

Because I will not abide Jewish conspiracy theories, the delusional hatred that appears on certain threads by practicing "believers" of different faiths, the denial in the face of facts, does not mean that I think of "you" as a Nazi. Indeed, I don't see how you made the connection from one point to the other.

What continues to shock me, for some reason, is how many people will read the most hateful antisemitic material and either be silent or in some way with it. Note: I haven't mentioned your name, and I'm not referring to you. But a Jew cannot protest this sort of thing. Antisemitsm is the sin that cannot speak its name, and mea culpa, I speak it. Of that I confess: I am guilty. You see, I was raised to protest against discriminatory isms. I cannot and will not, as some of my sister and brother Jews do, protest against every kind of bigotry except that directed at them.

This they do because they cannot speak for themselves. They have been psychologically silenced, damaged. I don't boast of psychic wholeness, but I can still speak for myself and my kid, and I think I must. And I must also speak for you, Paganplace, and for anyone whose voice needs another.

I wonder at what you have said about me in the quotation I posted above. It does not square with what I paste below. Scroll down: Here are three comments that appeared on R. Hirschfield's thread. The one immediately below is your post to me. On the bottom are my posts to him; the earliest is farthest down.

Continued

I am who I am, Paganplace, a brown, atheistic Jewish woman, who insists on her right to be seen as an individual human being, on her right to be. I insist on no less for you.
-----------------------------
Farnaz:

"Why not explain that "the Satan" is a principle operating in esoterica, and then give the details, explaining, at the very least, that "the Satan" translates from the Hebrew as "the Accuser," or, as some would have it, "the Challenger." Explain that he/it is not in rebellion against God, etc."

I suspect it's still not very practical for a Rabbi to say to a bunch of rabid Christians 'Hey, you got Satan all wrong,' after recent history.

Gods know they're ready to string you up if you hug a tree, these days, never mind play into Mel Gibson and all them 'passion plays.'

Posted by: Paganplace | March 28, 2009 10:25 PM
________________________________
Rabbi,

Sorry, I should have read more carefully before posting, but:

"In fact, there was even a time in a previous millennium, when Jewish liturgy had the courage to praise God "who fashions the good and creates evil."

Okay, so now take it from there. How does principle fit in the religion now? Never was Satan an anthropomorphic figure as in the NT, as "he" still is for Christianity--yes, correct. Now, explain.

Posted by: Farnaz2 | March 26, 2009 7:50 PM

And even if it were, I would still have no fear of a Devil who leads the forces of evil in an ongoing battle against God and the angels.

Actually, that kind of dualism should be hard for any monotheist to maintain.

As you surely know, Judaism doesn't. What Judaism refers to as "The Satan" has nothing to do with a "rebellious angel." PLEEZ, Rabbi, I'm aware of this tendency among Jews to try to translate for Christians or accommodate their terms. Judaism is abstract, yes, but Christians can understand it, surely.

Why not explain that "the Satan" is a principle operating in esoterica, and then give the details, explaining, at the very least, that "the Satan" translates from the Hebrew as "the Accuser," or, as some would have it, "the Challenger." Explain that he/it is not in rebellion against God, etc.

Otherwise, there's no need for you to speak as a rabbi at all on this matter. Anyone can do the sort of armchair psychologizing, philosophizing that you and most of the other panelists have done. What need clergymen? We can just read People magazine.

Posted by: Farnaz2 | March 26, 2009 7:46 PM

"Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".[31]

Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams".[32]

"Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work" and "John Calvin had grave doubts about its value."[33]

@ PaganPlace

Judging by your vehemence, you've had bad experiences with people who call themselves Christian.

But I think you're way, way, WAY off base in your anti-Christian barbs, over-generalizations and venom.

Peace, already.

I think most people -- most -- are on this board to have friendly discussions. And those discussions should not include the demonization of ANY belief set. Be it yours or Concience's.

You'll note I'm not ragging on pagans. I'm not, though I have many in my life. But I ask that you offer the same respect to Christians that you demand from them.

And a point. Jesus doesn't belong to "Christians." So you're wrong to say "your Jesus." It seems that you do so to hold people who are not like you -- i.e., Christians -- apart. It's a way you use to demonize people, just the way you complain that "you" -- by which you appear to mean Christians in particular, not Muslims or Jews or Buddhists -- have hurt you.

It's also a way to pretend that you're "better" than the Christians you seem so disdainful of. And that's unwise, unfair and utterly inaccurate.

Release the hate.

Stop speaking in generalities.

Understand that just as not "all" Muslims are terrorists, neither are "all" Christians. And "all" pagans and Wiccans are not "perfect."

Try seeing individuals, not representatives of some larger organization. Your hatred hurts you more than it helps.

The testimony of individuals all over the world, witnessed on the 'On Faith' threads herein, and a remarkable cross-section compilation of the diverse views of humanity as a whole at that, actually reinforces the whole story foretold in Rev 12:9: religious/spiritual confusion reigns. The adversary has done an amazing job in spreading deceit like no other politician could. How surprised mankind will be in just a few short years. Absolutely remarkable.

Arminius:
"I wish to hell and back I could meet some of you people."

You have my email, luv. If you're ever planning a trip to south Louisiana, let me know, and you will be welcomed at our house with open arms, hot gumbo, and cold Guinness. You and I can talk Paganism, and you and my husband can talk Braves (he lives and dies with them during baseball season).

We have numerous friends in Atlanta, and if we ever manage to scrape together the funds for a jaunt eastward, we'd love to add some time with you to the itenerary.

Well, yes, Arminius, I'm familiar with all that, I just don't seem to be around anyone who keps that calendar anymore. Actually, I thought it was a little early for however they reckon those holidays. :)

Anyway, no one even said they gave up accusing others of evil for Lent, that I heard. :)

But I'm aware, it's the holiday about when JC came out of somewhere and was like, 'WHoa, that was hellish. Dude. Hey, Tommy, get your finger out of... Hey, bunny!"

Something like that. We'come Spring, you know, friend? :)

Good night, Paganplace.

Gotta crash, not much sleep last night, stress level high.

Take care. Be well. God bless.

Paganplace,

YOU: "I wish to hell and back I could meet some of you people."

You really don't need to, you know. :)
And. What does that *mean* when you say that, anyway?

ME: I never said that I need to. I said that I want to.

YOU:
Hrm? Oh. Christian type Ostara is this week?

ME: Yes, our Holy Week. We call it Easter, but the origin of the date and name is obvious, and is honored by those of us who know.

Paganplace,

YOU: "Of Pagan folk, I like to think we're of a people open and forthright, even more than a little daring when it comes to hospitality. None should mistake this for naivete."

ME: Absolutely true.

I differed with Farnaz on several occasions. I thought I did it rather politely at first, perhaps I am wrong. She/he/it/they came back with a puerile bitterness. (Farnaz has posted here under other handles.) Among other things, one of the insults that was thrown at me is that I am gay. Which I am not, but that personal insult I can easily shrug off, it is a usual thing from people who are anti-gay and feel that anyone who supports gay rights must be homosexual. What bothered me is that anyone that uses 'gay' as an insult is bigoted. Anyway, it soon degenerated into a horrid piss-fight, which I should never have allowed myself to be drawn into.

"Paganplace,

"I wish to hell and back I could meet some of you people."

You really don't need to, you know. :)
And. What does that *mean* when you say that, anyway?

"Yule to me is no big thing. My important season begins this Sunday."

Hrm? Oh. Christian type Ostara is this week?

Funny, Chritianit on every channel down here, and I saw no advertising, but there was vinegar on sale and they were out of eggs.

Do Protestants not do that much?

Anyway, Arnminius. Beware what? She gonna call us 'witches?;

Find some clever new way to say we're in league with the Abrahamic 'Satan?'Come hurt our families? Take our kids, disrupt our ceremonies, try and disenfranchise us from politics, arbirtrarily take away our jpbs and property?

None of this would be new. None of this had anything to do with anything but someone teaching someone to be scared of Satan and look in a direction convenient to such accuser.

Beware what?

Of Pagan folk, I like to think we're of a people open and forthright, even more than a little daring when it comes to hospitality. None should mistake this for naivete.

What's she gonna do, Arminius, lie about us?

To protect the world from
'Satan?'

What's she gonna do?

Paganplace,

I wish to hell and back I could meet some of you people.

Yule to me is no big thing. My important season begins this Sunday.

Friend Paganplace,

Farnaz can make CCNL look benign, and Spidey appear downright friendly.

Beware what? What more could Farnazz do to us than claim it wasn't OK to say why we aren't Nazis...

Besides, I'm having a good belly-laugh right now about the CCNL thing.

The man has no Slack. :)

Farnazz is confused, too. In some ways.

Doesn't know whether to say all our religion came out of nowhere, or to blame us for some other stuff.

Or, I'd thought, actually come to meet some of us this past Yule.

How'd that go, anyway?

My Dear Pagan Friends,

BEWARE Farnaz.

"Bob" is

"Bob" becomes.

"Bob" is not. :)

Not part of Paganism, but the Saint of Sales is a good friend to anyone wanting to deprogram from *anything.*

Viddy thee Church of the SubGenius. :)

'And if you're not careful, you might learn something... hey hey hey....'

:)

(looking at CCNL.)

Yes. Jehovah is an alien, and still threatens this planet!

(looking at Farnazz.)

Gilligan, you've done it again!

You've found CCNL a spiritual home, if *only* he can be touched by Slack.

Just a little.

Gods. It was there all the time.

robinlandseade:

"May Bob help me."

Me, too.

Who is Bob? :)

Now why in the Satan's abode would anyone ever fear pagan black magic, voodoo and/or even pretty witches?? Well maybe a pagan might?

As 'evil' goes, anyone notice how little the abstractions certain people like to claim to be 'fighting' ...when it comes to trying to beat up on the victimized... all these 'complex questions' we're supposedly-wrangling with...

Anyone notice how no screen greats could seem to shoot a promo to illustrate all *these* things, but all of a sudden, say the S name, and the cup runneth over with screen greats?

Why is that, anyway?

Is it because certain schools of thought *want* it that easy?

Does the idea of hreat, personified evil, furthermore, good people.. Help ou to do the right thing, all these past years, or become an excuse not to?

Suppose your Devil *did* exist. Maybe called a press conference.

Do you really think this would change the accusations you make against others, or, in fact, how we would behave?

Way it looks to me, is *you're* the ones so scared of the remote possibility you're all after *my* family.

We Pagans, well. we've heard that kind of thing before. Wouldn't be here if we were scared of that sort of thing.

You know?

Frankly, we're more worried what you do *cause you're afraid of your own idea. of devils and evil.* No slippery slopes or qualifiers or metaphysical things about it. Just like some of you are afraid of the notion some Muslim people think *you* are 'evil,' we've always got to keep a weather-eye out for you folks freaking out.

We also know there's better in you.

'CCNL' here fears in us the 'black magic' he imagines. Willfully-fears.

Claims it's about what 'exists.'

Silly rabbit.

I think what he does not understand is, that ...goodness does not work that way. Life does not work that way.

Possibly he's far gone from thinking either of these things are important or could possibly have any power where it counts.

Our power. All of our power. Is not supernatural. Not absolute. Not 'righteous.'

Simpler.

Maybe your Jesus was trying to tell you guys that.

It's simpler.

Something anyone can touch. And anyone who thinks they can command that thing. Watch out.

Another life for me, that, Arminius, in your 'literal' type terms. :)

Freakishly, I remember a lot. Couldn't tell you what my 'opinions' were, though.

Funny how that works.

Unless:

It's not what's important. Not directly, anyway.

Paganplace,

Yer exhausting me again....!

My sixties were rather calm. I never thought about yours.

Then again, I guess you're talking to someone who wouldn't begrudge a mountain lion her meal. Seemed pretty obvious to me. ;)

Don't really know, Arminius, but I don't seem to have spent my Sixties being who you might expect, if asked to imagine. But like the lady says, we live and learn. And these are how it goes. :)

"The carpenter's son finds a way to die by carpentry.
And everything still looks like a nail."

I had to think about that. And the more I thought, the more true and profound it became.

Except that there are better tools for this than a hammer.

I don't think that even Dylan or Baez could have done that. Paganplace, is this your own?

CCNL:

"Again, Who needs Satan or his/her devils when you have voodoo and black magic!!"

Who needs your Satan, full stop.

"The carpenter's son finds a way to die by carpentry.
And everything still looks like a nail."

Whoa, PP, that gave me chills! Sounds like something Dylan or Baez would write.

"It's the two-legged wolf that is dangerous and potentially evil. Pogo was spot on."

Actually in a world of primates refusing to examine being primates, Brer Wolf is probably just the teacher we need *right now.* So we can grow up and one day meet him as we are on that day when we meet *ourselves* and know what that is.

And choose well what to do with that.

In full knowing and feeling.

Again, Who needs Satan or his/her devils when you have voodoo and black magic!!

Actually, I do wonder about the general lack of meaningful practical carpentry metaphors among followers of a 'son of a carpenter.'

It's a trade I've done some of, myself. My own dear father in this life'd cuss a blue streak over the proverbial hitting your own thumb. 'God damn it,' he'd say, and I'd look on wondering how much sense *that* was supposed to make, any more than priests taking random swipes at *me* did.

Guess that goes to the 'When you have a 'Hammer' everything looks like a nail, including your own hand,' I guess.

It's a dynamic that goes pretty deep, there, I guess.

If there is pain, obviously divine judgement of 'good and evil' and 'damnation' must be invoked.

Maybe pride's at stake. False promises. Threats of some disorder in the universe being so hard to face that people swear at machines, levers, hammers, pieces of wood, as though the very right in the universe were somehow at 'stake.'

Ever notice the symmetry in the Christian myth? The carpenter's son finds a way to die by carpentry.

And everything still looks like a nail.

Hi, Friends,

Absolutely right, the wolf is not evil, or even bad. I think he's kind of noble, in a way. Certainly the sound of wolves is haunting, beautiful music. The family life of wolves is a lot closer to human than, say, herd animals such as cows or deer. Oddly, same goes for hyenas, except for the howling. And don't think that hyenas are cowardly scavengers - they sometimes take kills away from lions.

It's the two-legged wolf that is dangerous and potentially evil. Pogo was spot on.

Pogo said another interesting thing: "God is not dead. He is merely unemployed."

"Lady, you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head."

I guess that's kind of the thing about proverbial nails. 'Attacking' them from all directions as some do, seems to have little to do with 'As we bind, so are we bound.' Never mind how not to bend the thing. ;)

Agreed. I think that having a personification of evil (no matter how well he is played by Ray Wise in "Reaper") is a giant cop-out. "The Devil made me do it" was funny when Flip Wilson claimed it. But it's not so funny in real life. People who believe that the Devil or Demons motivate their action need to step up and take responsibility for what THEY themselves do. As Pogo said once, "we have met the enemy, and he is us."

Merry Meet, friends.

PaganPlace:
""If a creature is gnawing at my leg, is that good or evil? To the creature eating at me, it is good, I am nutritious [I presume, seeing as I'm on an all-vegetarian diet]."
"To me, not so good."
Well, Robin, this is one thing about a Pagan perspective, ...we don't have to decide the wolf must be 'evil,' ...that's kind of part of the point."

Lady, you have hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head. Japanese anime is very good at portraying the "villian" as human, too, and giving reasons for his harmful actions. I think the Abrahamic dichotomy of "good/evil" forestalls understanding WHY the "villian" acts in a way that is harmful.

Also, the idea of "the devil made me do it" is so terribly irresponsible.

Hi, Paganplace,

Thanks, friend.

And, hi, Arminius.

Here, folks, is probably how someone doesn't let 'evil' define his faith.

Dig?

"Lepid,

"Why not create a world with no potential for evil in the first place"

Didn't He try that? (See Adam & Eve)"

globalone

Actually, that story makes a lot more sense in something like its original polytheistic context: the notions of absolute good and evil as you know them were kind of added later. And obviously in ways which are problematic to logic and common sense.

Much of the myth of that area and time is directly about the challenges of civilization in a less-controlled world: floods, cause they lived on a *flood plain,* so to speak.

A lot to try and get into, but a psychohistorical perspective might shed some light.

Calling the modern view of the Abrahamic rewriting of that old story 'Literally authoritative,' never mind 'evidence the Satan it posits is the literal way things are' has to *start* with the notion that the myths it was derived from have to be called 'distorted Satanic prefigurings' in the first place, to even *get* to that claim, never mind figure out why it doesn't hold up under its own weight of internal illogic.

Frankly, someone taught you that a certain reading of a certain translation of a certain book represents 'God,' and without trying to rationalize some bad memes around *that,* the universe must therefore be disordered and 'evil.'

Which is begging the question, on a massive scale, I'd say. Usually to our great sorrow.

Goodness ain't that hard. I think that should be a point for hope, not a 'problem.'

Is God all-powerful?
I do not know.
Is God all-knowing?
I do not know.
Is that even important?
I do not know.
I do not care.
I know that God IS.
I know that He is with me
He has always been with me
He will always be with me
He is with you too.
He is Love
It is a mystery
But it was enough
To restart my life.

"If a creature is gnawing at my leg, is that good or evil? To the creature eating at me, it is good, I am nutritious [I presume, seeing as I'm on an all-vegetarian diet]."

"To me, not so good."

Well, Robin, this is one thing about a Pagan perspective, ...we don't have to decide the wolf must be 'evil,' ...that's kind of part of the point.

While there are a lot of practical reasons it wouldn't serve any such wild animals around here (Like, eating humans is a good way for beasties to get hunted down and shot, even if I were exactly a free-range organic part of this nutritious breakfast for some animals,) ...well, I wouldn't exactly take some kind of existential offense were that to be my fate.

I'd consider it OK. More than OK. It might reduce the rhetorical profundity of any famous last words, but I'd prefer it to slipping hooked up to some machines. Certainly not think it 'evil.'

I mean, hey, I *do* eat meat, and believe that there is respect there. Could hardly start taking exception to the 'Red in Tooth And Claw' bit when it's *my* turn to meet the Hunter.

All kind of abstract, given the realities of the situation, but I'd put up an honorable fight and consider it an honorable way to go.

Some will think the whole universe exists to be judged good or evil, which seems to overcomplicate a lot of things, I'd say.

"I will say that obsessing over evil is evil. I guess that makes me one of them evil humanists that Jerry Falwell warned me about. "

I think that's where the 'real' problem of 'evil' is. Such obsessions and definitions do seem to muddy the waters, and in real terms, mean the most strident fighters of their 'evil' end up getting things *backwards.*

Frankly, afraid to observe what they're doing, and the effects thereof, because to admit you were *wrong* on any given point is cast as 'temptations of the Devil' having been in play somewhere.

It becomes unacceptable... too scary, to think one was under such presumptive influence *before,* so always, the notion of *doing differently* must therefore be attacked as though *that's* where the 'Satanic evil' must come in.

So, no matter how badly things may be going, it's always, 'God wants you to stay the course,' worry about the *fear* we say is outside the sheep-pen, so to speak.

They simply say any *criticism* is 'disobedience,' and that's how they rationalize throwing the word 'Satan' around about people they don't know.

"Didn't He try that? (See Adam & Eve)"

Since he is omniscient, didn't he already know how that little experiment was going to turn out?

Lepid,

"Why not create a world with no potential for evil in the first place"

Didn't He try that? (See Adam & Eve)

http://italkedwith.com/douglas/

Paganplace: " . . .that leads me to ask the question ...if all these 'serious and established religions,' with all the benefit of this wonderful information technology, can treat this just this once getting caught backing the robber barons *without* turning it all into a hunt for 'Satan' and duly appointed little helpers to blame when people start getting unruly at how they were taught to cry to be ruled. . ."

If a creature is gnawing at my leg, is that good or evil?

To the creature eating at me, it is good, I am nutritious [I presume, seeing as I'm on an all-vegetarian diet].

To me, not so good.

Really, the "Evil/Satan" cluster is about as local as it gets. I will say that obsessing over evil is evil. I guess that makes me one of them evil humanists that Jerry Falwell warned me about.

May Bob help me.

Why does evil exist ? Because it will glorify God.
Gods purpose is His glory. All things are for Gods glory. Everything will glorify God. All people will glorify God. The ultimate purpose is the glory of God and sir you will glorify God - either in Hell, vindicating His justice, which should come against a sinner like you (and me) or in Heaven: glorifying His grace that got you there, fully, by His own doing. But you will glorify God as all things will and do...even evil. "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good"

Posted by: US-conscience | March 28, 2009 7:01 PM
*******************************************

If your god is omnipotent and all that, why does he need evil in order to glorify himself? Why not create a world with no potential for evil in the first place,. and spend the rest of eternity resting in his cosmic laurels?
I don't think there is such a thing as evil. I think there are people who make poor, even dangerous choices because they don't understand that what hurts one person in a society ultimately hurts EVERY person in that society, including the one who engaged in the initial hurtful behavior. They don't understand that by deliberately harming others, they ultimately harm themselves. Sometimes this failure to see the big picture is the result of mental illness, sometimes the result of ignorance, sometimes the result of just not giving a fark.
But it ain't because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit, and not because a bored, lonely deity created a flawed species for the sole purpose of being able to show how great he was by "forgiving" them for being exactly what he made them.

Countrylawyer,

Some necessary background reading before your next "case":

The Satans of the world aka those “ugly, wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies” aka those modern day “demons of the demented”--

For some history of these creatures of superstition, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

excerpt:

"Satan (Standard Hebrew Satan'el, English accuser) is a term that originates from the Abrahamic religions, being traditionally applied to an angel in Judeo-Christian belief, and to a jinn in Islamic belief.

Originally, this figure was the one who challenged the religious faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible. Since then, the Abrahamic religions have variously regarded Satan as a rebellious fallen angel or demon that tempts humans to sin or commit evil deeds. Others regard the Biblical Satan as an allegory that represents a crisis of faith, individualism, free will, wisdom and enlightenment."

continued below:

http://www.philipharland.com/Courses/RELI398Satanoverheads.htm

excerpt:

"Satan’s Predecessors in the Ancient Near East (from 3000 BCE)
1.Chaos monsters and the combat myth in the Ancient Near East (see Beal chapters 24)

· Background: The Ancient Near East and common mythology; Order vs. chaos in the society of the gods

· Ninurta vs. Anzu (Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian): Rebellious chaosmonster

· Marduk vs. Tiamat (Sea) (Babylonian; see Beal, pp. 1619)

· Baal vs. Yamm (Sea) and Mot (Death) (Ugaritic/Canaanite; see Beal, pp. 1921)

· Yahweh vs. Leviathan, Rahab, and Behemoth (Israelite; see Psalms 74:1217; 89:518; compare Isaiah 51:911; Job 4041)

· Avenue into Jewish apocalypticism

From:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/evil/hod/hod07.htm

“THE TRANSITION from Devil-worship to God-worship marks the origin of civilisation; and among the nations of antiquity the Persians seem to have been the first who took this step with conscious deliberation, for they most earnestly insisted upon the contrast that obtains between good and evil, so much so that their religion is even to-day regarded as the most consistent form of dualism.”

Starhawk's got the right conclusion, but for the wrong reasons.

Evil, as distinguished from illness or natural disaster, is a result of choice. The Devil, created good and named "light bearer", chose to reject God and His Providence. Man, tempted, chooses to sin.

I don't want to get anyone sidetracked here. "Goodness" and and "Evil" are abstractions which describe intentionally chosen consequences. The question has been, though, and remains, why would choose to do harm?

Traditionally there have been three motivators to choose "evil": the world, the flesh and the devil. This mennonic is shorthand for describing what most folks know are sources of temptation: things like money, power, prestige, desires and perceived needs, and the spiritual component of a being perennially set on thwarting Divine Providence.

In Judaism, Christianity and traditional Islam God created man for love and service, and gives man the grace to do it. But people remain free to choose for, or against that purpose. Explaining why someone chooses against has, and does, include the devil.

"That point was, you can't tell some people nuffin."

True. But maybe we can try.

US-Conscience said that 'evil exists to glorify God.'

WTF?

Any deity that requires the suffering of another to be appeased is unworthy of worship, IMO.

This is why I never understood Christianity. It always seemed to me like people *created* a problem (all born bad/sinners/etc) and then *invented* a solution (accept Jesus or be tormented forever) to control others- never once looking at the pain that causes when people are forced to worship out of fear.

It's so easy to blame 'satan' for the existence of evil- it absolves one of the responsibility of looking at themselves to see how they might have *contributed* to the problem.

MMA Arminius, you said "Is His rule built from the evil that is done?"

Even back when I believed in YHVH I gave him more credit than that.

Hee, Robin.

Actually, that leads me to ask the question ...if all these 'serious and established religions,' with all the benefit of this wonderful information technology, can treat this just this once getting caught backing the robber barons *without* turning it all into a hunt for 'Satan' and duly appointed little helpers to blame when people start getting unruly at how they were taught to cry to be ruled.

Come on, monotheists, I just wanna know if you got it in ya. :)

Evil exists so Howling Wolf can sing about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1M1SzMDPso

Also, were the 'righteous mighty' even *asking* this kind of question when they felt themselves to be in control, and wondering how much certain others should beg to live if we weren't kneeling the right way?

You'd think if the right wing were so worried about their 'Datan,' they maybe could have asked the questions *before* they turned the world backwards over who a 'cripple' like my snuggles with.

Right?

So typical. Can't be bothered with the details of what you *deman,* till you need someone to blame for what you bullied us into somehow.... Not working.

Wow. Big surprise.

Anyway: Some will ask: 'Why does 'evil' exist.'

I ask:

Do you think it's gonna exist any *less* if we don't bring something else to the game?

People?

"Why does evil exist ? Because it will glorify God.

Gods purpose is His glory. All things are for Gods glory. "

Horse crap. Does God need a throne built of the skulls and bones of his enemies? Is His rule built from the evil that is done? Does He glorify Himself in it? NO! God is LOVE. He grieves for evil. Are you some kind of dominionist? And who do you think you are to claim to know His purpose?

- Arminius, a Christian

By the way, 'Conscience:'

"The ultimate purpose is the glory of God and sir you will glorify God - either in Hell, vindicating His justice, which should come against a sinner like you (and me) or in Heaven: glorifying His grace that got you there, fully, by His own doing."

It's 'Ma'am,' by the way. Or 'Sister' would do.

You completely confuse 'Glory,' 'Justice,' and 'Mercy,' never mind 'Grace.'

For someone who worships at a book, you sure don't seem very literate.

It's not Justice if it's some imposed condition, not Grace if you and I are on some kind of equal footing as regards an arbitrary invented 'Judgement' based on the notion that 'guilt' or 'innocence' has nothing to do with anything but whether or not we each think we obey some book better than some arbitrary someone *else,* and scarcely 'Mercy' if 'everyone's guilty' and the penalty isn't as severe as your own rules claim.

Sounds more like someone tscared trying to make others as scared as he is.

" But you will glorify God as all things will and do...even evil. "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good""

Since you're the one who seems to define reality by what you or I believe, in the face of all this helpless agression, that's funny of you to say.

Cause, frankly, if anything I do is 'to the good,' who in the Ten Thousand names of the Mother are you to speak to my *intentions?*

Seems to me you're the one without intentions. Christian.

Anyway, 'Conscience:' you say this to justify your typing:

"Gods purpose is His glory."

I think better of your God than you do, apparently. small as you've made *that* regard by your own doing. You come to call others 'evil,' with your lies about us?

I'll refer to the only book of your Bible that really made sense to me.

You speak *vanity.*

Will it 'glorify' your God to act on us as you speak of us?

Not by our accounting, it won't.

The only one you can 'dishonor' here, is yourself.

But I won't say I haven't heard it before.

What if... There was peace in your heart?

Christian?

"Why does evil exist ? Because it will glorify God."

How in the Holy Holly Hel does *that* scope?

This in your logic means calling a bunch of people 'evil' glorifies your God?

That's awful.

There's no glory in diminishing a foe, even if you *do* defeat them.

Never mind telling *others* that someone like *my* family is 'dishonorable' from your mighty keyboard, and trying to hurt us ith pens and keystrokes.

'Glory.'

Like honor, you don't even understand the concept.

I tie back my hair. Here, Mr. Knows-All-Of-God. Cut my head off. Will it help you find 'glory?' Will your God pat you on the head for it?

Posh. Even I give him more credit than that.

'Glory.' You want glory? Let your own priests ask you why, but what gory do you think there is bringing pain to the innocent, with your defamations?

There's no glory there. Not even for your God. If we give him a bit of credit for a clue.

Otherwise, if you'd seek 'glory' attacking my people, come to me. Don't call it 'theology' to acuse them of 'evil.'

Sport.

Why does evil exist ? Because it will glorify God.

Gods purpose is His glory. All things are for Gods glory. Everything will glorify God. All people will glorify God. The ultimate purpose is the glory of God and sir you will glorify God - either in Hell, vindicating His justice, which should come against a sinner like you (and me) or in Heaven: glorifying His grace that got you there, fully, by His own doing. But you will glorify God as all things will and do...even evil. "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good"

Oops, I left out the point.

Hi, Arminius, btw.

Anyway, Mokey, That point was, you can't tell some people nuffin.

As is ongoing, though, we can show them. And may all good Gods smile on the process. :)

Yeah, Mokey:

"One can only hope. :)"

Well, maybe not only.

Frankly, when these Bible-quoters come in here with their 'quoted, so God made me dehumanize you and quote that like it applied, not me... '

Well, I can't help but notice they've no idea what 'honor' is as regards honoring our bodies and those in them. They only see their profane view of life being about nothing more than their 'lust' ....and of course, property laws that treat people as chattel: it's 'lustful' if one sees sex their way without *permission,'* and 'virtuous' if one sees sex their way *with* permission.

This idea of 'honor' appertains to a sort of *slavery,* not the spiritual health of human beings.

Hi, Paganplace and Mokey,

Here's my take on the current subject:

Satan has been found! He's working at a gas station in Ohio - Elvis retired, and Satan got the job.

Anyone who puts more faith in words on a page rather than the world around them and their own experiences will not be persuaded by logic, regardless of whether that book is the Bible or Dianetics.

On the subject of Satan, I see no need to personify All Good in the form of one god or All Evil in the form of Satan. We're all a mixed bag one way or another. I would add to Starhawk's last line about how to keep from doing harm that if we experience ourselves as interconnected to others, to our environment, to the Earth, we will know that if we cause harm to others, we are also harming ourselves.

MMA Paganplace!

"As Starhawk mentions, we know it's dangerous to name 'evil' and then look for others to pin it on.

Maybe one of those lessons they'll get, eventually. :) "

One can only hope. :)

To the 'us-conscience'...

Don't throw quotes at us. It's not our book, it's not our problem.

I mean, yes, they're nasty things to say about someone, particularly by your own standards, Mr. 'US Conscience,' ...But you claim cause someone in a book said 'someone' did all these things, that it's not *you,* but 'God' that leads you to insult a bunch of strangers, while claiming we do and think all manner of things some guy with issues *centuries ago* imagined his neighbors did?

And this makes a case for your Satan existing?

Seems to me, *your religion,* *your* being deceived about the plain facts about the matter, and *your* attempting to frighten people based on a deceitful application of such false witness upon your neighbors.

Now, maybe you don't give much credence to a non-Christian as a spiritual counsellor, but I'd just say, follow the other three fingers on that pointing hand and call me in the morning.

"Those are not my accusations. That comes from the New Testament, the book of Romans, chapter 1."

And how, exactly, is that bit of much-retranslated polemic is your book of 'Law,' did you identify all these people, myself included, as 'condemned,' oh, Righteous Typer On The Internet?

I could as easily read the OJ Simpson trial at you.

I see no accusations there against *us,* and yet you bring them. Oh, right, what you do is, "God." He knows everything. You have a book. So you must, too, right?

That how it goes in your head?

Sorry, not applicable here.

Those are not my accusations. That comes from the New Testament, the book of Romans, chapter 1.

Did that give you comfort to say, 'Conscience?' Or is it just an excuse for something?

Cause I see nothing in your accusations that applies to *us,* even if you *do* think your God gave you the status of 'judger of hearts,' you certainly know *zero* of our beliefs and practices.

For what can be known about God is plain and apparent, because God has shown it to us. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So you are without excuse. For although you knew God, you do not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but you have become futile in your thinking, and your foolish hearts are darkened. Claiming to be wise, you have become fools, and have exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave you up to the lusts of your hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of your bodies among yourselves, because you have exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator.

God has given you up. This is Gods judgment on you, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Mokey:

"That's one of the things that's impressed me so much about this path- the sense that what we need to learn is presented to us in greater and more extreme fashions until we get it.""

I think it's actually pretty key, at least in terms of others trying to understand *us:* it seems a lot of folks who believe in devils and cosmic 'evil' are always trying to define everyone in sight according to those terms... (Some even claim that 'good' can't exist *without* evil, ...which I suppose usually leads to the assumption that 'evil' therefore has to be represented by *someone,* so of course, they apply that to people who have nothing to do with it.)

Too often, us.

I observe that for a lot of monotheists, they have a 'problem of evil' and a 'problem of free will,' ...and apparently can't imagine living without one, so deep the idea runs.

Seems a lot of people can't, or won't appreciate that. Who needs devils, I'd say, when there's obstinate ignorance.

As Starhawk mentions, we know it's dangerous to name 'evil' and then look for others to pin it on.

Maybe one of those lessons they'll get, eventually. :)

Thanks for your enlightened post Starhawk. All hail the ancient Druids!

Even today the that same medieval church is offended by sensible philosophies from Wiccans, other assorted pantheists and non-theists - e.g. Buddhism was mentioned.

We do need to make intelligent decisions as regards our own metaphyics, and Wiccans and their forebearers always seem to have done just that.

Your point of view is always appreciated!

Most of us skip anything written by Farnaz, the Jewish atheist, since she continues to lie about who she is by using at least five aliases i.e. Farnaz2 aka Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8.

Her lying 24/7 is a daily embarrassment to herself, her relatives and her Jewish heritage!!!

BREAKING NEWS FROM CCNL (Church of Clancy, Nusbaum, and Luigi):

CCNL (Church of Clancy Nusbaum and Luigi) is fast approaching the promised line. He and his co-religionists are headed toward New Brunswick, New Jersey to begin the intuning which is to occur every month for six months prior to the great event.

These most solemn services will begin with "Al dente, Dio" (probably inaudible to human ears), the inspirational hymn penned by Mother Millie Macaroni, sister of the Sainted Archbishop Luigi (of the Lasagna.) As per usual, the services will end with the choral Luigian "Hmmm."

A visit from the Holy Sauce will take place within the sixth-month-preparatory period. He has been in seclusion meditating on Regeneration and is expected to speak Ex Cucina. In the meantime, StemCellians are urged to read the Four Garlics in the New Tetrazzini.

We wish CCNL peace in the name of the Pasta, the Meatballs, and the Lasagna.

In solidarity,

Hmmm

That's one of the things that's impressed me so much about this path- the sense that what we need to learn is presented to us in greater and more extreme fashions until we get it.

Who needs Satan or his/her devils when you have voodoo and black magic!!

Human beings are a product of evolution. We evolved in closely held bands that rewarded self sacrifice by increasing the gene frequency among closely held relatives. We maintained the closely held status through xenophobia and genocide.

Thus our dual nature is a product of evolution. Consciousness arose as a byproduct of this evolutionary process and carries with it the choice of which of our natures we allow to become predominant.

Faith allows us to put these choices in a metaphysical context, the lack of which dooms us. Starhawk's description of that metaphysical reality is not far different from a Buddhist perspective.