Define "Responsible"

Yep, Arminius. Proof positive that the 'free market' isn't so free if it isn't watched. It's not really a free market if it's so entirely controlled by the richest: if free enterprise starts meaning destroying things of great societal benefit, you know it's gone too far. :)

Hi Mokey and Paganplace,

Want to know what really happened to trolleys here in America? Go to this link and prepare to weep:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal

I would LOVE to see more streetcars back in action! I happen to live in an area with decent public transit, but traveling the 1 1/2-2 1/2 hours I do for my commute everyday (travel is part of the job) even using the public transit system I'm still driving enough miles to require tuneups almost every three months.

Thinking about my carbon footprint is enough to make me want to hurl. But right now it's the only job I have.

I like that idea- maybe we should use 'wake up and prioritize' a new bumper sticker for the ages. :)

Sure, Mokey. What I meant there was that I think big business may lose a lot of relative influence over our lives on the 'consumer' end, ...the consumer economy can surely rebound, but eventually, I think what we take for granted/complain about/have had to rely on is fairly likely to lose relative influence, as any number of factors start interfering, ...the loss of the cheap fuel that system is highly-dependent on, for one.

There could even be some positives in a scary situation: local business and local agriculture might stand to be more competitive, again, whereas they've been steadily squeezed out by huge juggernauts selling cheap imported goods and downgrading job quality...

Transport infrastructure's pretty important to prevent real nightmare scenarios... More trains. Freight and passenger... Save that fuel and such for the real important stuff, and all. Given that, and hopefully some kind of single-payer health care, there could be plenty to do, jobswise, and all.

Wouldn't streetcars be nice? The only reason those went away was because people bought them up and trashed em to sell more cars. They were originally heavily-subsidized by people who made local amusement parks and other outlying destinations... the big companies with all these outlying shopping interests could probably be induced to do the same, with government backing.

(Mind you, I adore cars, myself, they're just a lot less fun and make a lot less sense when you *have* to drive them and there's too many in the same space at once and you have to pay to park em. :) This is something we can have. )

There are opportunities that can come of this crisis, if we start working on the solutions now. It doesn't *have* to be gloom and doom and Depression, but we have to follow through on this election's spirit and *wake up and prioritize.*

Gotta agree there, Paganplace..

That's something I always wondered about- why would people who kept proclaiming 'government IS the problem' want the reigns of government in the first place? Never made sense to me.

They've made the conversation for too long not about any ideas about what we all could do, but rather spent so much time demonizing liberals and even moderates by questioning their 'patriotism' that they failed to notice what they were creating was going to be worse than anything we've seen in years.

I can't imagine big business getting knocked down too much. They're too close to the lawmakers who won't allow that to happen beyond a certain point.

MMA, Mokey!

I think it's important to remember that 'personal responsibility' isn't just what too many conservatives make of it, the idea that individuals should be on their own in the face of the greedy, or the needy, but that the big companies can claim 'What's good for us is by definition good for you, even if it obviously doesn't work that way. Bail us out.'

This situation was set up well in advance, of course, and left for people to begin, once again, associating 'liberals' with hard times we've been warning would be consequence of certain policies all along.

Still, it's very much a time for us to pull together. We've just been governed too long for people who are really corporates who've been trying to 'prove government doesn't work' by screwing up governance. At least we have competent government, now, but it seems that a certain segment of the nation has made their choice about any notion of us all pulling together.

Still, maybe, too many people out there who think if only we can have more 'supply-side' rhetoric and religious authority/minorities to blame, everything'll go back to the unsustainable way it was.

We're a fairly small, flexible, and talented bunch of folks, and there's worse things to be when everything's in flux. Probably a good time to get really (in person) networked on the practicalities. There's good stuff there, even if things turn out well. I'm pretty sure that big business as we know it, gets knocked down a peg.

We'll see, I guess.

Not that it's not always a good time to 'circle up,' but I think whether things go well or for ill, a lot of things are likely to get more local. There's potential opportunity, there, as well as a fallback position. Responsibility, I think, involves being as ready to contribute or fend for ourselves as we can.

Hey, Mokey! MMA!

It's important, though, to remember that among all the talk of personal responsibility, (a mere flag to wave in the minds of those who want to be callous toward the poor and have the government bail out big-moneyed interests, ) well, this:

Personal responsibility, for a Pagan, also means you gotta be someone with being responsible *to.* It's not an excuse to be responsible to the demands of someone who won't share, even if that person is *you.*

There are social and collective responsibilities, as well. There's gotta be a harmony, there.

robinlandseadel,

I agree. It is a great thing to remember, as we go through the pains of the economic doldrums, that we do live in prosperity even as we are trimming expenses and learning to scrape by. Scraping by in the west is vastly more comfortable than doing so in Darfur or Rio.

I do not think that our current outcome is the result of "twists of fate", though it is easy to ascribe it so. It is ultimately by choices made, individually but certainly collectively as well. It is normal to need to adjust direction while driving a car down the highway.

Regarding your take on the scorpions. The rich certainly will always be here. Always have. Someone gets more stuff, more power, more attention of the tribe and culture and parlays that into greater influence. Human nature, ( not just human!), seeks to take care of itself and it's own first. Others and the collective are secondary. Or lower on the list of priorities. So they will always be here, yes.

But the "only way out" is not that they 'give back some of what they got'. There are other modes to get the economy and society a bit more on track, and with a bit more balance of power.

The idea that the powerful deliberately crashed the market though, is absurd. Noone that has $ willingly throws it away for philosophical or ideological reasons. No one invested in a moneymaker trashes it.

CCNL's got some sort of fixation with spells and such. Maybe he's got to have that looked at.

MMA Arminius, Paganplace!

I think Starhawk hit this on the head here- and especially with the emphasis on personal responsibility, I think it would behoove all of us to pull together to help one another out.

Long Live the King.

Everybody Belongs to Kingdom and is a Member in Kingdom and Longs for SHining Sky, Looks Forward to Meet Cheerishing Lady, for WHom Everybody Sings Beautifully.

kac yil oldu? bir zamanlar kadinlarin taslanmasindan bahsediyorduk. topragi surerken oyle seylerle karsilastim ki sayin Kayaci.

ne diyorduk, saturn neptun jupiter, sekendiz erendiz ve onikinci balik ya da iki tarafinda aslan olan Ignatius ya da NEptun'e gidip gelecek kadar bir mesafe dolastiran CERN Deneyi. yani bunlar edebiyat ve bilim zaten.

kay sut demek bu arada, bali kesretli olan memleket agziyla. kayseri de sutbasi. sutyen de sut elbisesi. kayser de fiskirik zaten, fountain gibi. "bizans valisi" de ayri bir ifade.

"steinsaltz" icin azizlere buyuklere danismak da diyebiliriz. Consult to Stones, Consult to Saint Ones. evliya icin "merried ones" diyebilirim.

bizde buyu yok, birsey olsun ya da olmasin diye dua etmek de yok. ama Istiridye KAbugundaki Afrodit'in saclari gibi, soylenenler ile insanin bildikleri ve hayati dalgalanabiliyor.

ama uflendigi ya da soylendigi kadariyla, her zaman insan istiridye kabugunda duracak degil ya? salyangoz da hareket ederken logaritma aliyor, astronomi hesaplarinin temeli.

Uftade sut icinde yuzmustur, Musa Nebinin elinden sut gelmektedir. Nasreddin inegin ictigine maya calmasi ile bilinir. yani demek istedigim bunlar edebiyat.

isterseniz Ogretmen Adin Steinsaltz (kayatuzu, kaya buyukleri) kitaplarini rica edelim Anadolu'da okunmasi icin.

bana Bekci Murtaza derlerdi, sevgili Aysun KAyaci, gezegenlerle ve buyuklerle alakali yazilarimdan dolayi. sonra yazarken araya girenler oldu, film arasina parca atan sinemalar gibi.

su konuldugu bardagin seklini alir derler. girdiginiz ortamin kokusu ustunuze gecer. isterseniz pencere acarsiniz, isterseniz sirkeli sunger koyarsiniz. Irlanda mamulu Johnson Oust koku giderici de sikabilirsiniz.

sunger dedim de, sunger kime denir bilir misiniz? antropoloji bolumlerinde konu ediliyor mu bilmiyorum. 2010 yilinda belki Yuksek Ogretim Kurumu derslere koyar.

Aysun Kayaci, basima neler geldigini bilseydiniz, birak kasigi, bir tastan corba bile icmezdiniz. ama biz ustumuzde bulduk.

biz ustumuzde bulduk bu topraklarda kurulu kurum kurulus ve kurullarin fikriyat ve uygulamalarini.

yani diyorum ki ustunuze giydiginiz kiyafeti biraz kapali tutun. israil dahil cesitli medeniyetler isimler uzerine hitab ediyor. kiyafetiniz icin Idris ve Nuh nebileri arastirabilirsiniz. uzerinizdeki terbiye ve fikriyatiniz, beden ve aile yapiniz, kiyafetiniz olarak gecer. ana karnina dusme tarihindeki gezegenler ikinci kapidir ve temel kapidir. lutfen cocugunuza hediye olarak esinizle birlikte oldugunuz tarihi bir kenara yaziniz.

dun itibariyle gazetelerde duyuruldugu kadariyla Prens Charles, altmis yasinda kral ilan edilmis diye okunabilir. zaten kirkinda guclenir kisi, altmisinda buyuk olur (alt : buyuk).

King of Sweden, in case His Excellency is in trouble within Kingdom of Michael, in trouble with other Swords, i beg the pardon of His Excellency in this Conversation.

and when His Excellency is back around the Table, the Swords shall have set me free from this unpleasant address i had to deliver to.

DAnnish Trademark in OnFAith

who are Crysanthemum and Silybummarianum? so simple to comprehend, isnt it?

bu sabah, sirtinda "yeditepe" yazan kahverengi ciltli kalin bir kitap atildi, geldi, dustu. Kara Book sanirim yerine gecti.

dur okuyucu. burasi haberinin olmadigi insanlarin haberinin olmadigi isleri yaparken, az cok haberi olan insanlarin yaptigi islerden haberinin oldugu yerdir.

1. the sea salt in the wood box. who is this?
2. candle scented by cinnamon oil. who is this?
3. quartz crystal into the sea salt. who is this?
4. green charm with jasmine and patchouli. who is this?
5. and then comes the full moon and the bathe. what is the bathe in the full moon?
6. what is the prosperity here?

DAnnish Trademark in OnFAith
1. the sea salt in the wood box. what is this?
2. candle scented by cinnamon oil. what is this?
3. quartz crystal into the sea salt. what is this?
4. green charm with jasmine and patchouli. what is this?
5. and then comes the full moon and the bathe. what is the bathe in the full moon?
6. what is the prosperity here?

After the bath, remove the crystal from the charm bag, and massage your body with it, particularly the back of your legs. Smudge the area afterwards. Keep the crystal stored in the charm bag with the herbs and money, and massage yourself daily, repeating the incantation."

Hmmm, spells, witches, rituals, voodoo, hoodoo, maypoles, spy hawks, priestesses, priests, witchdoctors, zodiac signs, pentacles, or the moons of astra, it is all basically "dark age" paganism to most of us.

To the Highest of Tailored Ten

i apologize for unfortunately and unwisely and unconsciously have spoken and searched and expressed and verbalized.

You keep saying these things CCNL, as if the stuff you can find out there on the Web is actually our religion.

'Spellbinders?'

No, Actually, in Wicca, we say, as we bind, so are we bound. Something you might take to heart, yourself, as you try to portray us to the world.

The fact is that most of the 'irresponsible,' buyers and sellers both, were taught by people much like yourself,that they must buy into an ideology,...not to mention run up debt or else be called 'unpatriotic,'....remember?

It's not Pagans who have *really* been selling 'prosperity spells.'

The only thing the websites you continually quote have to do with Wiccan religion is this:

Don't complain about your circumstance until you actually take it in your own hands. Something you have consistently failed to do yourself.

I suppose you think you're so much more 'rational' than what you quoted off that web page,a simple exercise in purification and ....will. As a priestess,I'd say that could be a way for someone to really take something in their own hands.

It's *you* and your lot that actually engage in 'magical thinking.' In the pathological sense. You figure that if life ain't perfect in your eyes, it must be because someone else is failing to banish 'flying talkie thingies' or whatever you're fixated on.

We're subjective creatures, CCNL. And I think this is the real fact you just can't seem to accept. Ritual can serve us, or enslave us. The choice is always with each of us.

Paganplace,

Tis the failure of the pay-for-view spells that have caused this dismal economic situation. I hear said spellbinders have requested bailout coverage :))

Looks harmless enough to me, CCNL. What do you want for free on the Net? :)

Anyway, yeah, Arminius, seems like there's kind of a lot of 'sore losers' out there on the conservative side, just trying to keep some kind of hate up. No real need to dignify that, I suppose.

Having trouble paying your mortgage??? See the money spells at:

http://www.ultimatespells.com/moneyspells.php

Or simply do this:

"Seven days before the Full Moon, annoint the candle with cinnamon oil. Light it, and fill the wood box with sea salt. Place the quartz crystal in the box, and bury it in the sea salt, to purify it's energy. In the green charm bag, place the dollar and coins along with the heal all, jasmine and patchouli, to charge the herbs with money power. now, smudge the room, the spell ingredients, and yourself. Burn the candle down one knob. Burn one knob of the candle every night. On the evening before the Full Moon, transfer the crystal from the salt to the charm bag.

On the night of the Full Moon, draw a hot bath with the prosperity bath salts. Light the last knob of the candle. Bathe, and repeat this incantation:

""Prosperity Infuses My Being""

After the bath, remove the crystal from the charm bag, and massage your body with it, particularly the back of your legs. Smudge the area afterwards. Keep the crystal stored in the charm bag with the herbs and money, and massage yourself daily, repeating the incantation."

Hi, Paganplace!

Good to hear from you again. I have not been heavy into the blogs lately, too much conflict. Like you say, what we need, here and everywhere, is positive attitude and positive effort. Been too much crap thrown lately. Starhawk is a lovely haven, I wish she would be here more often.

Oh, and, hi, Arminius. Missed you lately, while I've been ...otherwise occupied. I hope things go better for you soon.

Had a vision, that I think you'd find heartening.
Can't really go into details, but, well, Good time for me to concentrate on being at peace, it looks like.

A step back, and all the conflict out there in our nation and politics and places like these, well, it isn't likely where solutions are. Good time to think and work positive.

We are talking about responsibility over a computer network developed by the defense department of the United States, most of us from the comfort and safety of an all-American home that's heated and lit up by the accumulated irresponsibilities of big oil, big coal, big money and our collective willingness to let somebody else "deal with it." Our discussion here is made possible thanks to somebody else's hard work decades ago. This is all so fundamentally absurd.

In our collective pursuit of "uninterrupted prosperity" we finally ran up against the brick wall of the absolute limits of living on a small planet. Was I irresponsible because I decided to work in record stores and now nobody's buying records? Were we collectively irresponsible to continue to drive cars to and from our minimum wage jobs, knowing full well that we were poisoning the earth and "there's only so much oil in the ground?" Was I irresponsible to be "born in the middle of the second big baby boom"? Were you?

Ultimately where we are right now is not due to the bigger decisions and choices we made, but due to a series of simple twists of fate. I might have been born in China and now be working in for a few bowls of rice a day, or have a much worse "living" situation in Darfur. But I was born in the most powerful nation on Earth during its time of greatest wealth. I was lucky enough to be born into a very rich country where one did not have to work all that hard to get clothed, relatively well fed and practically entertained to death.

I don't want the banks to be bailed out, I don't really want banks at all, I don't want capitalism. "I just want to play on my panpipes, I just want to drink me some wine." But I certainly don't want to see things fall apart. I would be much happier if we could all just stop giving more to the already absurdly rich and start getting them to pay the piper. Which [again] is absurd as the rich will always be with us, like scorpions on our backs, asking us for a ride to the other side of the river. And by the standards of most of the rest of the world, I am absurdly rich myself.

The only way we're going to get out of the mess we are in is for the very rich to pump money back into the economy. But you know and I know that the moment Big Money found out that Obama was going to be president—the moment Sarah Palin opened her mouth—the plutocrats and oligarchs [George W. Bush's "base"] deliberately crashed the market rather than let go of anything, scorpions to the bitter end.

No, no, no, the current economic downturn is not due to over building homes, condos, apartments, shopping centers and business complexes or due the easy money policies of the Fed under Clinton and Bush, or the poor loans by the major banks, or the high cost of energy but is simply that the Wiccans failed in generating the proper spells to counter all these ills.

hadi KAyaci, bir kasik daha al. gece sutun de olacak. biraz aci biliyorum ama iyi olacaksin.

AYsun KAyaci, shall You possess a mobile phone? or just Moses?

Endeavour? Beagle? Vespucci? MAtthew? CIA? YHT?

sooner or later, 00 90 (224) 2241783
in case You shall call live.

Enterprise? Air Force One?
Ubuntu?

Mrs Hillary Clinton,
Head of Folkloric PArental Relations, Washington

should there be a transworther and transverber in "Welcome Beseated With Us" meeting on television in this recent visit of Yours, i may.

Solomon and His Wife had fun.
what is the name of Your ship?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/adin_steinsaltz/2009/03/helping_those_who_are_impoveri/all_comments.html

thanks Starward.
King of Sweden, hurry.

Limpscomb, this is Ali Selim Bulent Levent Eleventh Ruzigar Happy Event Alkan, with Barosso of Portugal.

"de-fine and re-spoon your siblings."

"I don't think I should be expected to pony up funds for them either."

Shouldn't, Lepi. But this is what we're left with.

Frankly, what *really* needs to change is the idea someone needs to pay the bank-man, whatever happens.

Bank-men foreclosing on people's houses only means that what *they* own is not only not housing people, but not worth much and not maintained.... In fact, being looted and destroyed for the copper in the wires, as was going on toward the end of Bush's reign.

If we can give them a trillion dollars, we can say, "You may collect your debts, but you may not foreclose. Cause you complain the situation is out of your control, we're gonna control it. As an American people. Your 'free market' wasn't so free or omnipotent after all, was it? So. We're gonna free you from that. You stop foreclosing in some blind instinct you can't resist. "

If we can pay the bank-men, we can put a moratorium on the foreclosure crisis. With that money. They set it up so we had to spend anyway.

Athena wrote,

"Frankly, I think that we should keep Gitmo open and throw the CEOs of some of these corporations in there. Start with Bernie Madoff, and that Stanford guy."

Rather than somewhere warm and sunny, how about somewhere stark and cold? Hmm...setting up tents on the plains of North Dakota would be a nice start. In a blizzard. Preferably after we remove their ill-gotten gains, of course.

Lepidopteryx wrote,

"If I take out a loan that I CAN make the note on at the time, and then circumstances change so that I am no longer able to do so (job loss, catastrophic illness, natural disaster), it's still not someone else's responsibility to make my note."

I agree. That's when you start working the phone, contacting your lenders and before you find yourself unable to pay them. Plus calling your family and begging for a low-interest loan that you agree in writing to repay.

I've done flat-broke, in my 20's. No health insurance. Eating next-to-nothing for days on end. It stunk. Good fortune (touch wood) means I still have money in my savings account. Circumstances could change, but I certainly hope not. Already dealt with chemotherapy last year and this year. Yuck.

As mentioned in another thread, I have gone through bankruptcy and foreclosure due to divorce, unemployment, and stupidity on my part. As for the people who bought the McMansions and are going under - no sympathy. But I am willing to help some of them if we can help many more of the others who are in trouble because of unemployment or health problems. It is the total picture we must look at here.

The CEOs, the predatory lenders, the Wall Street Vampires, and the slimebags still profiting from this economic horror - there ought to be a bounty on the bastards.

Add to that the outright fraud committed by several home lenders. Two of which were mentioned by a previous poster. Countrywide has been under investigation for fraud, and I have personal knowledge of the dirty tricks pulled by WF on homeowners that have never been reported. Yes, some people are to blame for buying too much home. But when you have predatory lenders who are acting irresponsibly, it's a recipe for disaster.

Frankly, I think that we should keep Gitmo open and throw the CEOs of some of these corporations in there. Start with Bernie Madoff, and that Stanford guy.

sinnerjizm :
Why is it that people will screech about 'personal responsibilty' when it comes to individual homeowners making bad decisions, yet don't apply the same standards and values to the banking industry and it's CEO's?

Shame on some of you commenters. Shame on you
****************************************************************************************************

I don't think I should be expected to pony up funds for them either.

What about someone like me? Would I be considered responsible?
I was in a committed relationship, but not married. We purchased a house together, with both of our names on the mortgage and the deed. Two years later, she walked out and left me with the mortgage as well as a load of other debt. It was not too long after being left the interest rate adjusted and went up. That was almost two years ago and I have been struggling to make ends meet. With the never-ending domino affect of these circumstances I have been running in quicksand ever since. I am way behind on my mortgage payments. I have been in contact with COUNTRYWIDE continuously for the past almost 2 years. Each time explaining my situation and pleading with them. Each time another government funded “assistance” program came out I was on the phone with them. I went to housing counselors. And each time I was told that I did not qualify, or if they did submit me for a program I was rejected by the “investor of the loan” (WELLS FARGO). I ultimately decided to take a job in Iraq in order to make more money to try and “qualify” for a good program and to look better to this investor so they will approve me for a program. So you know what Countrywide told me when I called them again after I had been here a few months working??? They told me I made TOO MUCH to qualify for anything. It took me two weeks to cool down after that phone call before I could call them back. For some reason I was eligible for a program. But THIS special program they offered me made no sense and was financially impossible for me to do.
I have put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into that house. No to mention I also put a lot of money into. I am currently in foreclosure. I called Countrywide today…they will not know until next week if I am eligible for help with this new money being offered the lenders… Am I responsible?? You betcha I am. I cannot help that I was left with this mountain of debt AND the mortgage that two incomes used to handle.

Why is it that people will screech about 'personal responsibilty' when it comes to individual homeowners making bad decisions, yet don't apply the same standards and values to the banking industry and it's CEO's?

Shame on some of you commenters. Shame on you

How about someone like me? I was in a committed relationship, but not married. We purchased a house together, with both of our names on the mortgage and the deed. Two years later, she walked out and left me with the mortgage as well as a load of other debt. It was not too long after being left the interest rate adjusted and went up. That was almost two years ago and I have been struggling to make ends meet. With the never-ending domino affect of these circumstances I have been running in quicksand ever since. I am way behind on my mortgage payments. I have been in contact with COUNTRYWIDE continuously for the past almost 2 years. Each time explaining my situation and pleading with them. Each time another government funded “assistance” program came out I was on the phone with them. I went to housing counselors. And each time I was told that I did not qualify, or if they did submit me for a program I was rejected by the “investor of the loan” (WELLS FARGO). I ultimately decided to take a job in Iraq in order to make more money to try and “qualify” for a good program and to look better to this investor so they will approve me for a program. So you know what Countrywide told me when I called them again after I had been here a few months working??? They told me I made TOO MUCH to qualify for anything. It took me two weeks to cool down after that phone call before I could call them back. For some reason I was eligible for a program. But THIS special program they offered me made no sense and was financially impossible for me to do.

I have put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into that house. No to mention I also put a lot of money into. I am currently in foreclosure. I called Countrywide today…they will not know until next week if I am eligible for help with this new money being offered the lenders… Am I responsible?? YOU BETCHA I AM!!! I cannot help that I was left with this mountain of debt AND the mortgage that two incomes used to handle.

I am a retired lender from a larger Credit Union. 30 years ago we never would have made the poor credit approval folly that is done now. Preditor lending is rampent. Yes I can put blame on Joe and Martha borrower but look at the attractive enticement put out by Prostitute lenders who entice with no regard to their borrowers.As a lender I have a trust to uphold and that is to guide not entice.

As always, Starhawk, you are compassionate and I appreciate that.

I stand with Lepi, however! I work very hard for my money and I give when and where I can, especially for people whom I know and understand where there hardships are coming from.

But to ask me to pay for peoples' follies is not in my or their best interest. When someone buys a home when they know that the mortgage will eat up more than half of their monthly income we are talking about sheer stupidity.

Yes, we are all interconnected, but when you really think about it, a person or couple who buys a home worth $250,000 and then add(s) a nice car, a boat, a jetski (or maybe 2) and a skido on a very limited income should not ask for my help to bail him/her/them out. And I have seen this again and again in my neighborhood.

I am a giving person, but I am not stupid. Let me help those people in need that I see fit to help, but don't tax me out of my home because of other peoples' mistakes, greed, or stupidity.

Am I by brothers' keeper??? Yes! But, I am not the world's keeper to the detriment of myself and my family.

I remember working in Washington, DC, and having to walk several blocks to the office. About every ten feet there was a "homeless" person stretching their cup out for a helping hand. After several weeks I counted up the money I put in those cups and realized it was more than I could afford. If I kept going at the rate that I was giving, I pretty soon would have been in their shoes.

So, my question is, when is enough enough???

I think the real issue here is that this whole 'crisis' was set up by the previous administration and the corporations *to* both take less-advantaged people's money, with promises of ever-increasing home values and (deregulated) misleading finance schemes, not only to take a lot of money from the working classes and *then* take the houses back,

...But also to leave the next administration with the need to 'bail out' these 'free-market capitalists' ...by giving them still *more* money, or else face the collapse of an economic system we're out on a limb without.

Typically, Republicans try to 'moralize' about anything but what *they* do. Rules and responsibilities (and the 'invisible hand of the market' are for 'the little people' to worry about, to them.

They complain about the budget, now, but there wasn't a peep about the trillions Bush spent *off-budget.* On his 'war' and tax cuts to the wealthy and other 'transfers of wealth' to the same companies that preached the 'free market' and now want us to pay them again when their own scheme *blew up.*

They were quite content to do predatory lending, take their fees, and then foreclose on houses.

The only problem there for them is that when they got too greedy, they killed the value of the very thing they were so bent on taking. For, in fact, everyone.

There's a lot to it, and I for one, have always said there would be a bill to be paid.

But now that the American people are so unwillingly 'invested' in these companies, we deserve a say. And some returns. From these 'expert free market capitalists.'

And maybe, that means some things ought to be *taken back* from them. Like the big bonuses and paychecks. They're *responsible* for this and still living high on the hog.

Can't let the economic system crash, but I see nothing wrong with these fatcats have to 'rough it' and show us how they 'earn' such big paychecks.

Yes, people bought into bad investment schemes like those called 'suburban tract housing' and the like. But they were also lied to by 'experts' and few cared.

Maybe I can say, 'For what it was worth, I told you so,' but 'we,' collectively, are *all* responsible for how all this came about. Maybe not in the land of 'moral judgments' ...but as a nation, we did not stop them, did not regulate these things, and we all should know who was demanding things happen this way.

Gods know some of us bloody well tried to warn you. Warn 'us.' Now we have limited options. But we can still fix it.

While I appreciate the desire to control any aid to be sure it is not offered to those who were "gaming the system", it seems to me that we aren't able to enforce this kind of restrictions on those at the top of the totem pole, so I don't quite understand the passion for enforcing them at the bottom. If Athena's friend's stats are correct, If we did no cross-checking of people's situations at all, we'd be right 90% of the time in offering aid. Law enforcement and the judicial sysetm often have a lower batting-average than that, as the Justice Project (an investigation into capitial-punishment trials) found out.

Susan Jacoby's column on our social dishonesty over economic class is interesting to me, and I recommend checking it out. I have to wonder about our desire to be sure we don't help anyone of low status who is "undeserving", while those at the top (who seem to be more responsible for our economic worries) get virtually no oversite (and resources enough to throw parties and buy gold-plated toilets).

I'm not suggesting a blank check for everyone who claims hard times. I'm just wondering why we seem to feel those having trouble paying thier mortgages are less worthy of assistance than the heads of AIG, Countrywide, or GM. Any ideas?

Good point, Lepi. The problem is differentiating between the people who need help because they were victims of the economy and those who were abusing the system? I have a friend who works in debt collection industry. She hears multiple stories every day. 90% of the people that she talks to are people that lost their jobs, had a catastrophic illness, or lost most of their retirement money when the stock market tanked. Then, there are those other 10%, like the Christian minister who bought a 200,000 RV, made no payments on it for 6 months, had no insurance on it, and let a church group take it to Canada - then claimed that he should get a break because because he was a minister. (!)

I would imagine that any solution would have to be funneled through the debt collection system, so that they can make sure that the people who really need the help can get it, while not rewarding the jerks who were gaming the system.

The Goddess also teaches personal responsibility.

If I take out a loan that I KNOW I can't afford the note on, it's not up to someone else to make the note for me.

If I take out a loan that I CAN make the note on at the time, and then circumstances change so that I am no longer able to do so (job loss, catastrophic illness, natural disaster), it's still not someone else's responsibility to make my note.

That said, I have no problem with helping out someone in the latter situation, but I am more reluctant to pony up funds for the former.