If Male is Sacred, Female is Devalued

But I think a much more important question to ask is, Are feminists the right people to speak for women? Feminists are interested primarily in careers and power, and while they may also be interested in marriage and family, even in cooking, these are minor concerns for feminists. But they are major concerns of most women, and not because women are oppressed. I myself would rather cook than sell a used car or work in a large office with hundreds of fluoroscent lights.
Now, feminists are COMPLETELY entitled to their choices. But we should be careful before we take at face value their claim to speak on behalf of all women. They do not. For better or worse, Ms magazine is not one of the top ten women's magazines and yet we act as if the people who read it are the ones typical of women. When we talk about women's issues, feminists are the women to whom we go for advice.
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Rohi, as usual, you've got it wrong.
Feminism isn't about careers and/or power and the destruction of home-making. It's about women AND men being able to decide how much emphasis they wish to give different aspects of their lives. I work, as does my husband, I raised a daughter, and I'm one damn fine cook. I would go nuts if I was expected to scrub the house every day, have a full-course meal on the table every night, and eject babies like a corn popper.
In my grandparents' generation, very few women brought home paychecks unless they were widows. A married woman with a job was pitied because her husband wasn't taking care of her. An unmarried woman with a job was scorned for not finding a man and settling down to the business of making babies. The idea that a woman might PREFER a career to marriage and baby carriage was inconceivable. There were few fields open to women who did wish to work.
My grandmother was told that there was no need for her to go to college - she didn't need a degree to change diapers.
Feminism simply made it acceptable for women to choose marriage, babies, college, career, or all of the above.

I'm not sure how empowering women frees men. If anything, male culture has suffered in the last few decades with the tearing down of masculinity and its accompanying rites of passage, bonding rituals and role models.

Look at old movies and old television shows as opposed to how men communicate today. There's a huge difference in body language, personal space and other indicators. Men aren't as comfortable in their skins these days as they were back then. Male culture is often denigrated in the media as being solely about beer, sports, violence, casual objectification of women and flatulence, and that is a gross misinterpretation.

I think that a lot of what's happened to male culture was done to it by feminist and gay culture seeking to deliberately emasculate men to achieve their own cultural growth. That they tear down and devalue and undermine the male cultural identity, and that's created a real identity crisis for men.

So, I'm not really sure how it is that this identity crisis men are undergoing helps free them. I would suggest that Starhawk probably don't know male culture at all if she believes this, and that her comment about freeing men is made as sort of an obligatory afterthought, just as women are treated in patriarchal religious cultures.

I'm not sure how empowering women frees men. If anything, male culture has suffered in the last few decades with the tearing down of masculinity and its accompanying rites of passage, bonding rituals and role models.

Look at old movies and old television shows as opposed to how men communicate today. There's a huge difference in body language, personal space and other indicators. Men aren't as comfortable in their skins these days as they were back then. Male culture is often denigrated in the media as being solely about beer, sports, violence, casual objectification of women and flatulence, and that is a gross misinterpretation.

I think that a lot of what's happened to male culture was done to it by feminist and gay culture seeking to deliberately emasculate men to achieve their own cultural growth. That they tear down and devalue and undermine the male cultural identity, and that's created a real identity crisis for men.

So, I'm not really sure how it is that this identity crisis men are undergoing helps free them. I would suggest that Starhawk probably don't know male culture at all if she believes this, and that her comment about freeing men is made as sort of an obligatory afterthought, just as women are treated in patriarchal religious cultures.

Posted by: rohitcuny | July 30, 2009 12:14 PM

I'm very, very puzzled by your comments. I consider myself a feminist, and have since the mid-70's when I was a high school student. But I emphatically don't believe the things you ascribe to "feminists", and don't value (or devalue) the the things you claim to be of high (or low) value to "feminists".

My family (husband and two sons, parents, siblings, nieces and nephews) is the most important, highest value in my life.

Yes, I work full-time and have for over 30 years. My husband has been the full-time homemaker and child-care provider since our older boy was born 17 years ago. It was a decision we made before children, even before our marriage, based on our personalities, temperaments, training, and life goals.

My definition of feminism is being able to make choices like the one we made for our family - without regard to gender.

I really strongly dislike the definition of feminism I inferred from your post. I hope I misunderstood.

Oh, and just to get back somewhat on topic - we're Pagans, specifically Wiccans in the NROOGD tradition, and find that Goddess spirituality is very affirming of our choices - both mine to work outside the home and support my family financially, and my husband's to care for and nuture our children.

It could be a part of Western chauvinism that most Americans are unaware of the fact that Hindu goddesses have followings of tens of millions in India, and the Navaratri festival is a festival of nine nights devoted to the goddess Durga.

Just yesterday I received a silk amulet from a female cousin (who regards herself as my sister) which will protect me from harm for the months to come. And this ritual is there because all women are believed to inherit from the goddess the magical power to protect their loved ones.

Western feminists often complain about the mistreatment of women in India (and their complaints are often on mark) but they need to balance these complaints by noticing that the current president of India is a woman, and the Italian born Sonia Gandhi is the leader of the ruling party in India. Indeed no Italian woman has that kind of power in Italy itself.

So I would say, learn a little about religious traditions outside the Mosaic one.

But I think a much more important question to ask is, Are feminists the right people to speak for women? Feminists are interested primarily in careers and power, and while they may also be interested in marriage and family, even in cooking, these are minor concerns for feminists. But they are major concerns of most women, and not because women are oppressed. I myself would rather cook than sell a used car or work in a large office with hundreds of fluoroscent lights.

Now, feminists are COMPLETELY entitled to their choices. But we should be careful before we take at face value their claim to speak on behalf of all women. They do not. For better or worse, Ms magazine is not one of the top ten women's magazines and yet we act as if the people who read it are the ones typical of women. When we talk about women's issues, feminists are the women to whom we go for advice.

I think this is why Palin is hated so much. To be sure she has her faults, but the hatred towards her is completely off the wall - she did not invade Iraq, and she did not torture anyone. The hatred has to do with the fact that she breaks the feminist mold of how (all) women ought to be.

Let us hope that women take up positions of leadership in religion, but let us also hope that they fight for all humanity rather than for those of women's rights which are the primary concern of people like themselves.

"As usual Starhawk, the world loves your column and agrees with you (that alone should give you pause!)"
Posted by: US-conscience.|

Why should it give her pause? Couldn't it simply mean she writes clearly, gracefully, and makes reasonable points? That's what I see here. (I may be biased, though, but not becasue of her faith. I loved both her novels [The Fifth Sacred Thing and Walking to Mercury.] The woman has a real flair for both description and building characters.)

Generally in her posts to this blog, I see a clear-headed view of people, a tolerant and generally open mindset and an honest, genuine kindness. She is one of the few religious leaders willing to let people follow their own path, with kindness and support. (Following your own path is kind of a bug-a-boo of mine.) I don't see any of the "Do what I tell you, or else" that seems to dominate many religions. It's nice to know spirtuality and freedom don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Do you see something different in her posts? If so, what? If not, what about those things worries you?

As usual Starhawk, the world loves your column and agrees with you ( that alone should give you pause ! )

MMA, everyone. :)

While we're all agreeing, I do think that both an active reverence for the Earth and the Divine Feminine, not to mention a simple *absence* of any underlying theological scorn for Earth, women, or physicality, are things perhaps too often overlooked (Or, tellingly, not seen as 'important') when we try and communicate about who we are and our shared values when it comes to speaking with other religions.

To us, perhaps so basic and familiar we may not think so much of it anymore.

My own path with Wicca and Paganism actually started with the Gods first, then finding other people who revered Them and shared experiences and perspectives that to me seemed quite natural, for the most part, even as I saw and even participated in a certain amount of the finding of our identity as a faith group.

I have to admit I never particularly expected Paganism to get this *big,* or of such broad appeal and even influence.

I think we're part of a desperate need in the people to address some of these balances... this is a world much troubled for lack of the Goddess, however one wants to say that, ...not to mention for lack of the manifold faces of the male Gods.

Heartening to know that if we call out for this, we're well-answered, yes?

I think all the peoples will have to come to some understanding, in our various ways, doubtless some sooner than others.

It's also nice when we see signs it's not *just* Pagans and a few others against all the blame, denial, and alienation in the world. There's real things that need doing, have needed doing long since, while some are more concerned with control and fear of its loss.

As is usual, Starhawk, your response to this question is clearly written, open-hearted and honestly refreshing. I especially appreciate your view that in devaluing the feminine, "earthy" side of things, we devalue the very earth that sustains us all. Most religious traditions that have taught the domination of male over female have also taught the domination of man over nature, with some truly horiffic results. I also note that religions like Wicca that emphasise equality of individuals and the value of the feminine, also promote responsible environmental practices. Compared to the other, more "mainline" religious representatives, you shine! Well done.

This was one of the biggest factors for me, too. For a little while I looked into the Dianic traditions- but it seemed too lopsided in the other direction. I really wanted a path that honored both male and female as equals and equally likely to serve as their group's HP/HPS, and would include gay clergy as well.

One of the many things that appealed to me about Paganism was the fact that there is no dominance of one sex over the other. Having been married to a Christian man who took Paul a little too seriously when he said that wives were to submit to their husbands, the idea of both Male and Female as equally Divine, and not subject one to the other was liberating.

Thank you, Starhawk! I've been waiting for you to chime in on this issue! It was your book, "The Spiral Dance", that inspired many of us who came to Wicca in the 1980's. It was my first exposure to the idea of God as both female and male. For someone who had grown up Catholic, but was attending a women's college, it put all of the pieces together for me. Blessed be, and THANK YOU!