Weapons in the Circle?

MMA, Lepi.

Basically, yeah, though, a lot of what we call 'ritual tools' could in fact be used as *weapons,* (certainly, if you take an athame seriously, the reason it's sharp is important. But that reason is not about hurting anyone or being afraid you might need to. If you were really afraid you would be attacked in Circle, you'd bring something *else,* (to avoid desecrating your athame and hopefully have something that worked) wouldn't you? And if you're that scared, you post warders, you don't ritualize the fear and the guns, right?

Ritually speaking, there *is* no essential difference between a gun and a spear or arrow. It's a device for putting holes in things. (different from a blade in this respect, but same as a 'pointey')

Like any tool, you can use it, or think with it.

Merry meet, PP.

By incorporating weapons into a ritual, are you referring to an athame? I have a lovely one, sharp enough to shave with, but I don't consider it a weapon; I consider it a tool.

I know that any tool can be used as a weapon, and therein lies my definition of a weapon. A weapon is an object with which one actively seeks to do harm to another.
The purpose of a firearm is to launch a high-speed projectile into another person or object, which cannot be accomplished without doing harm; hence, a firearm is always a weapon, whether it is being used for hunting food or gunning down "the enemy."

The only way my athame would ever shed blood would be if I were being attacked at my altar and it was the only means of self-defense available to me.

"Dear P A G A N place & CO.,

Since Ye art a Wise-Fish/Bait (no Hooks Attached?) that i [WE] decided not to eat Ye but Release Ye!

YA YA!

Posted by: spaceship-earth"

So says one of the aspiring driftnet-fishers of souls. :)

And, well, I've been around out here, Arminius. Got bored with this place being mostly down to me and various other kooks. :)

I figure, a weapon's much like anything else. If you ritualize it, either you're dealing with it, or it's dealing with you.

Bad juju to bring a gun in there when a finger or stick will do.

I understand the Sikh thing about always carrying a blade, whether it is or even can ever be drawn. That's not about stoking paranoia, that's about remaining in awareness of something, in whatever you do. I have a similar personal custom, actually, though mostly it's in Mae West's terms of 'You never know when you might need to cut yourself out of something.' The blade's mostly for rescue, the handle's for tight spots.

(An open knife is actually a *terrible* defensive weapon. A stick of any kind is much better. No one walks away from a knife fight unhurt if they needed a knife in the first place. And as I always say, 'The Bad Guys Always Bring Plenty Of Weapons.')

Ritualizing, 'You Need To Bring Weapons To Church Or Temple' doesn't help anyone.

Well, Hello Paganplace!

How are you, old friend?

First, about what you said at the end of your post: "When stuff like the worst we see happens, ... if someone in the 'pews' has to fire a weapon, it's already too late. "
I have seen nothing here on this subject that sums the problem up so well and eloquently. Thank you.

Next, yes, Starhawk is a pacifist. So is Jesus. I am not, but I am not aggressive unless pushed. No preventive wars, please.

Weapons, specifically firearms. NOT to be allowed in any house of worship, yours, mine, or any other. Outside, maybe, by people trained. And training does not just mean a couple of sessions on a firing range. If any have doubts (I know you do not, Paganplace), let them ask a member of a swat team.

But edged weapons? No problem, whether a Pagan ceremonial dagger, A Sikh sword, or a Samurai sword, fine with me. No danger, only symbolic meaning.

Finally, you are right, we must watch out for each other. Yes, definitely.

"Some New York-area rabbis are planning to bring weapons to High Holy Day services this month to guard against terrorist threats."

Better they should bring guns to protect against the depredations of YHWH, one of the most threatening and dangerous personalities in all of human history.

Dear P A G A N place & CO.,

Since Ye art a Wise-Fish/Bait (no Hooks Attached?) that i [WE] decided not to eat Ye but Release Ye!

YA YA!

*waving to all. It's been a while.*

Hi, Arminius, it's been even longer. :)

Everyone's got to bear in mind here, that Starhawk is a *pacifist.*

Plenty of Wiccan and Pagan traditions actually incorporate 'weapons' in the services, much to the panic of those who are looking for something to freak out about. (Not that this means everyone shows up armed or that this is a good idea: you might see a sword or a dagger or a stick there, but it's not there to hurt anyone: in fact, it'd be considered desecrated as a ritual tool if it did.)

This of course, isn't even near the same thing as people packing pistols to services, ...that'd tend to focus a lot of the ritual on... what. Enemies? hurting people? Being afraid?

I dunno about some religions, but that's not the point of ours.

If things are that threatening, then someone better be posted as warders, so people celebrating can focus on their religion, not someone scary.

Personally, I think this is a great place where the diverse religions of America can, if necessary, *protect each other.*

If someone's threatening the Jews, the rest of us should keep watch. If someone's threatening the Pagans, (whether with aggressive disruption or worse,) as happens a lot, it's best if our non-Pagan friends (Or the police) keep watch.

Weapons are a tricky thing with stuff like this. They do, of course, tend to escalate situations.

When stuff like the worst we see happens, ... if someone in the 'pews' has to fire a weapon, it's already too late.

Mostly if someone wants you to bring a gun to church it's just more part of having a preacher claim you need it.

"Truly people are easily able to decline into idiotic statements, totally disconnected with reality. "

There is nothing is Starhawk's statement that is anywhere disconnected from reality.

A few lessons at a firing range does not an expert make. It increases the potential for accidents and those who are not experienced and highly trained have NO business bringing a firearm to a house of worship, because what exactly is being worshipped by so doing?

Truly people are easily able to decline into idiotic statements, totally disconnected with reality. If that is Wiccan, than so be it, but for the record it should be clear that weapons are not allowed in places of worship in Judaism unless they are neccessary for self-defence. Unfortunately Jewish places of worship (Betai Knesset) have been targeted too many times and, as a previous poster has noted, a handgun is very useful in trained hands against even a determined attacker. With that said, it should be noted that it is infinitely better that an plains clothes detective be assigned to places where there is a palable threat (whether beit knesset, mosque, church or wiccan wigwam). Even so, as stated above, congregants carrying arms is allowed.

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Dear Mokey, Armenius, etc., I share your concerns! I am a Christian, a pastor and a former Navy Chaplain. And I am very frightened for the future of our society. We have come to a time where people are not being taught the civility that once characterized most interactions among people. More so today than at any time I can remember...and the first PResident I really remember was JFK...people are not being exposed to a common narrative of society. In the 50s until about the early 90s, we had the networks and people got their news from one of the big three networks. You might like the "take" of one anchor more than another, but you generaly got common news broadcasts. And then came the proliferation of cable "news" such as Fox, etc., and now people do not hear the same things. Sean Hannity, for instance goes on after a speech by the President, and takes partial quotes to accuse him of the exact opposite of what was actually said. And too many people do not realize how they are being manipulated. Especially many of our more senior citizens, having been raised on the idea that if it is on television it must be "true" buy into this crap.

Until responsible members of the Republican Party take control of their ideological liars and get them policed up, we will continue to have this growth in hatred and anger. It is becoming a danger to our society. There are Republicans who are sane and thoughtful, but we have people like Rush who spend their time and enormous audience to do great harm to society. Former Senator Danforth, an ordained Episcopal priest is one who speaks for the sort of "Rockefeller Republicans" who used to dominate the party. Now we have people like Rep Joe Wilson, who use the occasion of an address to the Congress to accuse the President of lying.

As long as people are fearful and angry, they will turn to whatever they think will protect them. We have hundreds of millions of guns in this society, and someone is going to use them at some time.

I think it is time to reclaim the concept of sanctuary from all religions: That houses of worship, and other places (schools and governmental buildings such as local council chambers and courthouses) where we as citizens gather MUST be declared as sanctuaries, and peaceful gatherings maintained. People have the right to speak and argue, but the First Amendment on the right to gather uses the word "peaceably". Violence is unacceptable and not protected. We need to demand that the peace of society must be maintained. Each of us can help do that through active, continuous comment in all local organs of opinions. Every time we have an example of political hatred in our discourse, we need to beseige the political leadership to speak out. If we make a loud enough noise, long enough, we will have effect. But we must counter lies with truth. And no matter what, we must not be intimidated.

I understand the threat that Jews have been under, but I think arming rabbis and members of the congregations is the wrong way to address it. I agree that we, Jews and non-Jews alike must demand that society protect them, must speak out against hate speech and all other stereotyping. We must speak out on behalf of Jews and all other minorities under threat, including Muslims, who are also becoming targets of violence. After any acts of anger and hatred, or hate speech we must demonstrate, through word and action our own solidarity with the downtrodden. This is what I have learned as a Christian. THIS is what I believe Jesus would do: He would stand with those who are victims. So must we.

One poster commented that "spree shootings" happen quickly, and that is true, however, they are a relatively small number in the course of a year (we have a population of 300+ million; even a dozen events is statisticaly unimportant), but the number of accidents and potential problems by bringing arms into any setting greatly outweighs the possible benefits of having a bunch of people with weapons.

As a pastor, I will not serve a congregation that allows weapons in church; the contamination of the peace of God that such weapons brings is so destructive as to nullify any atmosphere of worship. (The incongruity of armed members greeting their neighbors in the name of the one put to death by the state boggles the mind. "The peace of Christ be with you"...!) If my parish is ever invaded by an armed individual, and we suffer casualties, I am not afraid to be one of those casualties. The Unitarian church who was invaded a year ago in the south has accomplished more through the martyrdom of their members than they could have expected in years. They and the community around them, have grown in understanding and combined witness and friendship through the horrible results of that attack. We need to do this in our own communities; not wait for violence, but work toward reconciliation. The Romans sought to stamp out Christians in the early centuries, and many went to the lions. But the saying that comes from that time is: "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church". Martyrdom did not kill off the Christians; for everyone who was killed, dozens more stepped forward.

We can defeat violence in our society, but we have to get at why a society that polls as one of the most religious in the world is also one of the most violent. Something isn't right here, and our duty as citizens is to do everything we can to find other ways than violent ones.

Pr Chris

"I can get seriously pissed and step over the line sometimes. I'm trying to deal with this."

I certainly know how that feels. When I feel like that I know it's time to get some time away and some perspective.

That's why I only tend to jump in to a conversation like that when people assume that everyone thinks the same as they do. You know of my profession- it gives me a perspective that would really open a lot of people's eyes to the reality of what happens when people only talk in terms of the black and white. A lot of folks get hurt in the process.

I couldn't help but lose all respect for McCain after his performances in the election. I think even HE recognized he wasn't as 'angry' as the dominionists wanted him to be. He was the one who started actually defending Obama against some of the more hateful names hurled against him. But by that point it was WAY too little too late.

It makes me sad to wonder what Lincoln would think of his own party these days.

Mokey,

Jack Kemp, a possibility. Bob Dole might have been one if he were stronger. Colin Powell, a big yes, but he had the good sense to stay out of it. He is on record that he was suckered into that fateful UN speech, and considers it the greatest mistake of his life.

Thanks for the complements. But, as I am sure you are aware, I can get seriously pissed and step over the line sometimes. I'm trying to deal with this.

McCain is a mystery. I might have voted for him in 2000, but he got backstabbed by a really nasty rumor campaign engineered by Bush & Co. In other words, if he had got the nomination, he would have been elected. But by bucking the system, he could not get nominated. So in 2008, he turned around and sucked up to the right, including the religious right. Guaranteed nomination, but assured failure to get elected. He prostituted himself, it was sickening.

"It is odd, but very reassuring, that I feel a kinship with all my Pagan friends that I have met here."

Not odd at all, as I see it. It gives me hope that there really are good people in any religion. You are always welcome here as far as I'm concerned. :) I know I"m not on here as much as I used to be- but I do still read each week and jump in whenever I feel the need to. To be honest, I admire your willingness to get into it with folks who aren't even as courteous to you as you are to most of them. And thank goodness for keeping the claymore handy. ;)

From what I know of him, I would have gone with a Jack Kemp. Still a Republican, one who was genuinely worried about the poor, and by all accounts cared about social equality.

The odd thing is, I can't help thinking Senator McCain was put up as some sort of sacrificial lamb. When I heard his very gracious concession speech on election night I was wondering where the heck *THAT* guy had been the whole time. He knew what kind of folks people like Rush and others were and called them on it years ago. I wonder if he has remained Republican to try to hold to a better ideal. Unfortunately, the lunatics have taken over the asylum that the Republicans have given to them. Sarah Palin's utter hypocrisy, fearmongering and ineducation just was too much for me.

What concerns me is that there is no regulation on the kinds of things that are said on a daily basis now- the kinds of things that used to get people arrested for incitement. These people now have guns that they enjoy bringing to meetings. How much more needs to happen before someone irreparably gets hurt? And why doesn't America realize what's happening here?

Mokey,

You are a Pagan, and they will not talk to you. I am a liberal, and they won't give me the time of day either. It is odd, but very reassuring, that I feel a kinship with all my Pagan friends that I have met here.

The republican party is leaderless, and being fueled, but not managed, by clueless, rabble-rousing scum. This is very bad for America, because we need a dynamic two-party system that can at least talk to each other. Our country depends on this interplay, which of course can be acidic at times, but never so much as now. The right needs a Goldwater. I never agreed with any of his politics, but by damn he was a decent and ethical man. He was on record as being absolutely furious at any attempt to insert religion into politics.

Yes, the election. I was dancing, cheering, and weeping. Seldom had a happier night.

I hope that they are as few as you feel. It just doesn't seem like that. Which is why I do not watch much TV or read a lot of news lately. I was so happy seeing people dancing in the streets on election night, and so many folks gathered together on Inauguration Day- and that's the image I use to help me get through things like this. But that interview frightened me in ways that I have only heard about in hushed tones from family friends.

I feel like we need additional parties with the kind of leverage/support that can actually win elections. I can not even think of voting from ANYONE from the Republican party even though I'm probably more conservative financially than even I realized.

I know they're past the point of not being able to talk to- but their ideas are slowly and viciously leaking into the mainstream in new ways that people don't even recognize. We have got to stand up to this. As a Pagan, I'm comfortable with the fact that they won't listen to me- but maybe someone who follows the same religion they do is more likely to have an impact.

Putting the Kentucky pastor and the rabbis in the same category is akin to uniting the Janjaweed with the National Guard. After all, both are armed.

Rather than deal directly with the problem of Jews having been threatened for FOUR DECADES by lunatic, racist Islamist terrorists, OnFaith prefers to distract attention with this week's obfuscating question.

The problem of Muslim terrorist threats against synagogues, Jews in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods has been going on for FOUR DECADES. Frankly, people are sick, tired, and disgusted with being targeted.

A few years ago, some people, including rabbis began stating that they intended to defend themselves, and not only during the High Holy Days. They do not want their congregations to be burdened all year with the cost of paying for private security and they don't want to be under siege by police.

The synagogue I occasionally attend declined police protection this year. This resulted in a meeting with the chief, followed by two more, in which the rabbi and her committee were finally persuaded to give in.

The congregation, a gentle enough bunch, was not happy from what I hear. Enough is enough as this brilliant young rabbi declared in her email. Jews, like everyone else, have enough problems living day to day without being threatened by Muslim terrorists. However, the rabbis arming themselves is not the right way, as they very well know since the announcement was rhetoric.

We Jews, cultural and observant, need to organize, as taxpayers. We need to stage demonstrations demanding that those who threaten us be caught, tried, and jailed, if convicted. (Can you imagine what would have happened if, decades ago, Catholic and Protestant churches, neighborhoods, were threatened by Islamist extremists?)

As this discussion continues within the community, I am hopeful that much stronger efforts will be made to apprehend those threatening our lives and the lives of our children right here in the US.

In the interim, I am rather astonished at how the real issue, Americans held hostage to terrorist threats in New York City, is being buried in cant.

Hi, Mokey!

It is really great to find a friendly voice here.

As the oath of a soldier says, I swear to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign. These foul dominionists, truly religious fascists, are domestic enemies.

But you said this:
"Arminius, I really hope that someone or maybe a LOT of someones like you as followers of your Jesus can try to talk some sense into some of these people."

These people cannot be talked to, we might as well try to talk to Bin Laden. They will start a war here if they can. Our only defense is to fight back - peacefully, as long as we can. Our advantage now is that they are few. But so were the Nazis in the 1920's. And the subliminal bigotry so prevalent here will play into their hands, just as it did in Germany so many years ago.

The tumor in America has been identified, and these horrors have a nasty habit of spreading, especially in times of trouble such as we are enduring now. I am afraid, but I am also very, very angry.

Merry Meet again, Arminius!

I heard something on NPR yesterday that truly frightened me, so badly I nearly vomited.

The people who keep trying to label Mr. Obama as a 'fascist' and 'Socialist' are those who have been influenced by a group of extreme, Very hard line, Christian Right wingers who want to replace our Constitution with a biblical based theocracy. These are people who have taken and are following these ideals from RJ Rushdooney. One of his biggest followers/supporters is Howard Amundsen who gave millions to the Discovery "intelligent Design' institute and allowed it to be formed. There is also Tony Perkins, who works behind the scenes, holding conference calls with pastors/preachers and who knows who else, who then go back to their congregants and tell them to go to the health care town halls and scream and shout and completely disrupt the speakers and make up things to be shouting about. These folks have connections to senators like David Vitter and David Duke (yes, it was his connection to THAT David Duke that cost Tony Perkins his wanted Senate seat. Now he works pulling people's strings behind the scenes.) These people have barely, if at all, concealed their ties with KKK and other neo Nazi style militia groups and THEY are in OUR government.

These are the people who think it's OK to torture people and to shout down people who are simply trying to make things better for people- when even most of the objectors to health care reform is on Medicare/medicaid. These are the people bringing their guns to these town hall meetings. And to church.

They accuse Obama of 'fascism' and 'Socialism' without knowing that they are two completely separate things, while simultaneously working to undermine our trust in our democracy so that they can slip in underhandedly and overthrow our government.

It was an interview with Max Blumenthal, who was able to get into meetings that nobody from the press had gotten access to before, including Sarah Palin's Muthee 'witchcraft prevention'. His book is called 'Republican Gomorrah'- and the interview with Terri Gross is on NPR's website.

I like NPR but sometimes they do their job way TOO well. This made me physically sick. It's the most treasonous, dangerous movement in America and they will not stop until everyone like Starhawk and you and me and anyone not like them is dead.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if we're on the brink of another Civil War. No wonder people are armed.

But if someone in a place of worship feels like they need a gun to worship, then how sacred can that place really be? I'm with Lepi. Someone's got a gun- and that will be a place that I am not. If it means that I end up solitary in the woods, so be it.

I don't fear death. I fear religious fanatics unchecked in positions of power.

Arminius, I really hope that someone or maybe a LOT of someones like you as followers of your Jesus can try to talk some sense into some of these people.

Send lawyers and money then instead of lawyers, guns and money to get me out of this? It's always this or that. Deadly force is deadly and that's how I roll. All you need then is a rock.

I chose to worship the reality that is, TAT SAT. In that I worship the characteristics that I assign as ideal: Truth, conscience (morality), Love (bliss), Satcitananda.

In my atman I worship the paratman.

But, I am also a member of a society. I must act in this world. I have Karma. If my job is to heal, I will be a doctor. If my job is to build, I will be an engineer. If my job is to protect, I will be a police officer or a soldier. My tools will be a scalpel, calculator, or a weapon.

Sikhs say they have a religious duty to carry a weapon. The Samurai bowed before their swords. This was not a senseless, casual relationship. It is a profound relationship with the awesome responsibility of a spiritual person who is aware that they can and at times should take life.

hariaum

I will not set foot in any house of worship or other sacred space where weapons are permitted.

Another beautiful essay from Starhawk. Here is what I said about this subject elsewhere:

As a veteran of America's armed forces - combat engineer, Vietnam era, served in West Berlin - I know full well that putting a firearm into the hands of someone who is not trained is putting a gun into the hands of a child. It is madness.

I am also Christian. To bring a firearm into the house of worship of the Prince of Peace is to violate, to indeed rape, everything He ever taught. Those so-called 'Christians' who worship guns and call for the death of other people are NOT followers of Jesus. They never ask 'What would Jesus do?', no, they obscenely scream 'Who would Jesus bomb?'. This is sickening, and is not just anti-American, it is a threat to all good people anywhere, regardless of country, race, or belief or lack of belief.

Jesus wept.

An Active Shooter (a spree murderer) is usually "finished" with his murder spree in two-to-three MINUTES. Active Shooters favor "UNARMED VICTIM ZONES". Think about it.

Police response in less than three minutes from the beginning of an "incident" is nearly impossible.

When the "bad thing" happens, those involved will be on their own to solve the problem, to live or die. That is the reality of dealing with an Active Shooter.

If more "good citizens" were armed (and trained), there would be fewer victims of criminal assaults. Ultimately, we are responsible for our personal protection, the government cannot be with us every moment and I do not want them with me every moment.

There is nothing wrong with guns in the hands of these Rabis who are trained in the use of these tools of protection.

Tell you what - you practice your religion the way YOU want, and let other people practice their religion the way THEY want.

Once you start "lecturing" others on the "proper" way to worship, we are on the road to the Inquisition II, jihad against the apostates, Crusdade against the heathens, or whichever way you want to characterize it.