When pagans get our rights, everyone benefits

HCBerkowitz

You wrote, "Really, I'm glad that you have a spirituality that works for you. As long as you don't insist that your view should supplant mine, FOR ME, we have no problem."

I don't look at what I say here or in person as spirituality or religion and it doesn't matter to me what anyone else believes or disbelieves, that is up to the individual person.

I was chosen to speak therefore I speak, where and when I can, whether here or elsewhere.

You then wrote, "As long as there are equal opportunities for all (or no) religion at the Air Force Academy, again, there's no problem."

I was never at any of the Academies but I was in the service and even tho, except for in basic training if I remember right, I never spoke with a Chaplain or went to any service, I did have the availability to do so especially when overseas when no other service was available except for the military ones.

Theoretically speaking, your comment about "all (or no) religion" does not stand up for the simple reason that "no religion" is very much one of the "options", it is not an equalizer.

I have no idea just how many "religions" there might be in the world but "practically speaking" if there was a "chaplain" for all of these "religions" there could possibly be no room for anything else, think about it!

There is the "real" world and there is the "perfect" world, the real world is real and the perfect world is not.

You also wrote, " It's when one gets preference, there is very much a problem for the good order and discipline of the military."

It has been awhile since I was in the service but when I was, no one was "forced" to attend or not attend services whether overtly or covertly and if that is happening anywhere now in the service it is totally wrong.

As far as "good order and discipline of the military", we should not lose sight of the fact that the "military" is made up of people not just "expendables".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

""APaganPlace,

Somebody paid for the land. Somebody paid for the construction of the shrine. Somebody will pay for it's maintenance. And that somebody is we taxpayers!""

Among whom are we Pagans, if you can't remember. Mind if we use a hilltop no one else is? And some boulders that had to be moved *somewhere* anyway?

Also. We're *Pagans.*

Tending the land *is* part of our religion. And... It's *stones.* What maintenance do you think it needs? :)

Not a good place to pick on. Everything that would have been an additional cost to the taxpayers *was* paid for by Pagans.

In fact, the space that had *previously* being used (some brick patio somewhere, if I recall correctly) was closed *because* of maintenance issues.

To Thomas Baum,

Really, I'm glad that you have a spirituality that works for you. As long as you don't insist that your view should supplant mine, FOR ME, we have no problem.

As long as there are equal opportunities for all (or no) religion at the Air Force Academy, again, there's no problem. It's when one gets preference, there is very much a problem for the good order and discipline of the military.

I do agree that Colorado Springs does have alternate facilities not associated with the Academy (or Peterson AFB, Shriever AFB, Cheyenne Mountain AFS, etc.). The military chaplaincy does have a role in locations where there are no other facilities, and one can argue that there's a professional education role in having cadets work with chaplains.

Colorado Springs, incidentally, is an incredibly beautiful place. It also hosts hot-air ballooning festivals, which are also visually impressive -- although I shall never forget the time when I was rushing to the airport there after giving a seminar, and a 110' Everready Bunny floated over the road.

APaganPlace wrote: "We may have crossed posts, there, since they were only four minutes apart, Stinker, but I'd just gotten finished saying that this circle of stones *did not* cost the taxpayers a dime.

Unlike certain other edifices nearby."

------------

APaganPlace,

Somebody paid for the land. Somebody paid for the construction of the shrine. Somebody will pay for it's maintenance. And that somebody is we taxpayers!

Why can't religious people pay for their own shrines with their own money without picking the taxpayer's pocket?

"It's good to hear from you, as well, Marc. We hear so much of this *mania* out there directed at us that it's good to hear from some sensible neighbors. :)
Same goes for you, Gimpi. :)"
Posted by APaganPlace

Thanks, APaganPlace. To be "sensible" is something that I always aspire to. It's nice to hear that I pull it off now and again.

"For all those who believe I am in serious need of help, I have yet to see anyone comment on the intellectual and theological issues raised here about monotheism versus paganism:"

Posted by Captn_Ahab

Captn_Ahab, perhaps no one is commenting on your link is that it's broken. However, I feel you are missing the point. Your approval is not necessary for any group to be equal before the law. You don't have to aggree, like, respect, or believe in any religion for it to be covered by the 1st amendment. The point Starhawk is making is that if ANY faith can be denied facilities, discriminated against, or harrassed, NO group's rights are safe.

It's pretty basic, and pretty much verified by history. Why do you feel your opinion, or the opinions of whoever was on the video you tried to post, should matter at all?

APaganplace exists as we all do with all the guarantees of the great nation of the USA. But on the other hand, APaganplace does not have a degree in World History or does she? If not, she should reference her statements.

HCBerkowitz Part I

You wrote, " I'm reminded of the response attributed to Augustine of Hippo when he was asked what the deity was doing before creating the Heaven and the Earth:

"Devising a Hell for those who would have the audacity to ask such questions.""

Some may be surprised to find out that God did not "devise a hell", per se, but did leave it in our power to build our own hell.

God has a Plan that ultimately ALL will be in God's Kingdom but nevertheless we are responsible for our life whether we or not we accept that responsibility during our lifetime is up to us.

You also wrote, "Now, to answer the second part, yes, I do consider the development of the world essentially random, accidental or man-driven."

I believe that God knew exactly where, when and to whom I would be born, I do not believe that it is an "accident" as to when, where and to whom I or anyone else was placed, so to speak.

You then wrote, " I have had no personal experience of a conscious and personal deity,"

I have.

You then wrote, " I apply Occam's Razor: if an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity wanted my communications, why should she make them so obscure?"

First off, even tho God-Incarnate was a Male, God is not a Male, a Female or an It but is a Being of Pure Love.

God Is God and I'm not, but for one thing if God could be "put into a formula" as some wish it were, there would be absolutely no reason for "Faith".

God was anything but "obscure" in letting me know about the Reality that God Is but God also did not lay out for me exactly how I am to do what God chose for me to do.

I do not know why God chooses the people that God chooses, but as it says, God will see them thru and I, for one, thank God for that.

""I think this has been a healthy conversation for the most part. I learned enough that I don't find Pagans threatening. I also see that amongst yourselves there are some internal tensions which actually makes you seem like a much more mainstream religion. Kinda like the little old ladies at church arguing over the potato salad at a church supper. You guys are alright.

Posted by: marctrain1""

Heheh. We do often sound like that, don't we? At least you needn't worry we're a conspiracy to take over the world. ;) Some people do want to claim all the paths under the 'Pagan' umbrella term are a 'cult' (to make us sound scarier: to get people to sign away their own rights, for instance,) but the growth of 'Paganism' is actually something much more organic. In America, at least, we're certainly very American: this is where we did our growing, and haven't suddenly become foreigners or anything. :)

:) Thardman's kind of path takes a different approach than those you'll mostly hear from here: but, in person we can all get along just fine, generally.

There are some longstanding debates which make it easy to get off on the wrong foot amid the general storming about at us. The Internet certainly has a way of amplifying disagreements. But there's also a lot of friendship between our paths: the existential 'stakes' aren't as high when you're not out to convert the world or avoid going to Hell for being 'wrong' on some point of history or whatnot. So, as I can hear a priestess of mine saying, "Well, at least we've shown we're not afraid of drowning in words." We all tend to love scholarship and debate and stuff. :)

It's kind of complicated to look at from the outside. It can be a little hard to circle the wagons without getting too much of a siege mentality, is all. But there's also a lot of friendship between us.

It's good to hear from you, as well, Marc. We hear so much of this *mania* out there directed at us that it's good to hear from some sensible neighbors. :)

Same goes for you, Gimpi. :)

To me, that's what all this talk is about, on this topic, actually... Not the ones who'll hate or dismiss us anyway, but those who can see fellow Americans in us. Cause this kind of issue isn't just *about* us: there are a lot of forces out there seeking to divide Americans against each other, and the debate is really about whether or not *any* of us have unalienable rights, or if certain religious authorities are allowed to decide who 'doesn't deserve' them.

That kind of thing never seems to stop with the *first* group they want to cast as scary or unimportant or silly.

So, thanks, guys. It gives me a little more hope for America when we hear more from you. :)

HCBerkowitz Part II

You then wrote, "Why should such a powerful being want prayer and punish if it doesn't get it?"

Some look at "prayer" in a lot of wrong ways, some are: a wish list, telling God what to do, trying to brown-nose God and the list can go on, prayer can and should be to help us change where needed and also to look at things "differently" when needed.

Two examples: Abraham and Moses, did they change God's Mind or did God, in God's Way, bring something out of them that they may not even have known was in them?

You then wrote, "I can, however, experience unconditional love from my cat, so maybe I can more easily believe in Bastet than an Abrahamic deity."

We speak of "unconditional love" and "conditional love" but God is an actual "Being of Love" as in Love is not an attribute of God, conditional or unconditional, but is God's Very Being.

You then wrote, "Meanwhile, until God suggests we do lunch and have a chat, I intend to be responsible for my actions and lead the most ethical life I can."

As I have said before, "It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows", as far as "repenting" that is taking responsibility when we sin, do wrong, screw up or whatever one wishes to call it and we all do, at least I have.

You then wrote, "Rather than ritualized prayer, I see transcendental communication in service to others, being true to myself, and pursuing truth."

If "ritualized prayer" becomes nothing but rote than it is no more than spewing out words, what I refer to as "pre-fab" prayers, one of which is the Our Father or Lord's Prayer, to me is exquisite if one actually prays it rather than just says it.

When I make a reference to "pre-fab" prayer, I am not being derogatory, quite the contrary, I am trying to point out two things, one, the "pre-fab" prayer should not just be "spewed-our" but should be thought about and two, we should pray in our own words also.

I look at God's Plan in not only God becoming One of us but in God extending an invitation to us to be active participants in God's Plan of Salvation not only for All of humanity but for All of creation.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Yeal's creative history hour.

There wasn't even *nationalism* in most of Europe before Christianity came a long Yeal, never mind it being 'fascist.'

Fascism as you are trying to cast us as is authoritarian and anti-pluralistic, your article there is just someone trying to scapegoat 'Paganism' as though it were as authoritarian and monolithic as Christianity is known to be.

The persecutions of the people fascists targeted and still target didn't begin when some Nazis 'rejected Christianity. They go all the way back through the history of Christian hegemony. Appropriating or misappropriating a few Pagan symbols for some xenophobic agenda does *not* make someone Pagan. Or Paganism, particularly the Neopaganism, synonymous with 'fascism.'

That's just someone trying to displace responsibility for what happens when they try to combine religious authority with the state and inflame people to fear or 'sacrifice' others in their midst.

What *fascists* reject are Enlightenment ideals of pluralism and humanism, rule of law, human equality, diversity, and liberty.

Kind of like certain Christians with a poor understanding of history here today. Running around trying to intimidate everyone into obeying their 'ultimate authority.'

The topic is, after all, about our freedom. Some people are trying to say we shouldn't exist.

" ...I never knew this was an actual religion. Where I grew up everyone was Protestant, with a couple of Catholics and Jews thrown in. I never actually heard that anyone in modern times was a Pagan. So it is news to me. And to be perfectly honest I equated in with satanism. I was wrong on that as I have now read.
So I am trying to understand. This is just not something that existed on the farmlands where I grew up in the '60's. Hell we thought unitarians were odd where I came from."

Posted by: marctrain1

Marctrain1, I can't speak for APaganPlace, but for myself, trying to understand is a good place to start.

I come at this from the opposite end, growing up in a large, diverse trading city on the coast, where literalist Christians are as scarce on the ground as Pagans were in 1960 in Republic, Kansas. I was drawn to this site, in part, to try to understand the whole spectrum of belief. The world is much greater than either of us understood in our youth.

I congratulate you on being able to understand that you were mistaken about your beliefs about Pagans. I discovered I was, as well. I never saw them as Satanic, but, well... perhaps a bit woo-woo? Then, after a discussion on this site, I did some research. What I found was a belief-system that is, for the most part, honest, practical, enviromentally-aware and kind. All good things.

The real learning point, however, was discussing my research with a friend and occasional employer, a software-developer who has hired me for marketing assistance in the past. He is as pragmatic, as realistic, and as well grounded in science as anyone I know. He is also a Wiccan High-Priest. So much for woo-woo.

Being able to learn and adapt is one of the best things about life. Well done. Just a point, perhaps remembering that others need neither your approval or understanding to have their rights recognized in law. The idea that religious equality should be somehow controversial is both goofy and dangerous.

"Fascism is an ideology which has its roots in Europe. The foundations of fascism were laid by a number of European thinkers in the 19th century, and it was put into practice in the 20th century by such European counties as Italy and Germany. Other countries which were influenced by fascism and adopted it 'imported' the ideology from Europe. So in order to examine the roots of fascism, we must turn to the history of Europe.

European history has naturally gone through many stages and periods. But looking at it in the broadest sense, we can divide into three fundamental periods from the cultural point of view:

The pre-Christian (pagan) period.
The period when Christianity assumed cultural dominance in Europe
The post-Christian (materialist) period
The idea of what we have described as 'The post-Christian period' may strike many readers as odd. Because Christianity is still by far the majority religion in European society. But many ideologies and philosophies opposing Christianity, materialist philosophy being the most important, had become increasingly influential by the 19th century.

Looking at these three periods, we see that fascist culture belongs to the first and third. In other words, fascism was born out of pagan culture, and was later resurrected as a part of materialist culture. There was no fascist ideology or practice throughout the thousand or so years when Christian culture dominated Europe."

http://www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com/thepagan.htm

This is because Christianity is a religion of peace and equality. Christianity, which believes in and tries to bring people to live by love, compassion, sacrifice, affection and humility, is the complete antithesis of fascism."

I think this has been a healthy conversation for the most part. I learned enough that I don't find Pagans threatening. I also see that amongst yourselves there are some internal tensions which actually makes you seem like a much more mainstream religion. Kinda like the little old ladies at church arguing over the potato salad at a church supper. You guys are alright.

"When are good "Christians" going to denounce the filthy hatred spewed by the likes of Jeffress and Fred Phelps?"

We have been, all along. And Pat Robertson and his ilk too. I know it's hard to believe, but "Christians" of that sort are actually the minority. They're just louder.

""Circle of boulders? Weak.""
Is it, then.
What kind of boulders do *you* think it takes while complaining about 'taxpayer expenditures' that *never existed.*
Now you complain about 'temples' built by military the lowest bidder, (namely, free? Possibly less than free, cause if Pagans hadn't found use for the extra boulders, the taxpayers (among whom Pagans *are,*) would have been charged transport costs to push them into a ditch?
I don't know how many times I have to say it, including to your face right here, but this didn't cost *us* an extra *dime.*
You want authenticity, give everyone back what Christians took.
If you don't want to do *that,*
Don't complain about the landscaping.
Posted by: APaganplace |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Chill, Pagan, I’m on your side here. I assumed the “circle of boulders” didn’t cost anything more than a few gallons of diesel for a backhoe to move a few rocks that were already lying around. I just thought they could have – and should have – done a little bit better than that.

Maybe if the site proves popular they will make some improvements.

When are good "Christians" going to denounce the filthy hatred spewed by the likes of Jeffress and Fred Phelps?

You think we might be better off (and make more sense) if god were spelled with two o's?

Guess there's a lot of talk about who of what kind of faith ought to be 'allowed' to defend American airspace.

One thing I know, ...whether we can have some extra stones to gather in or not...

One thing I know, is, few can *love that airspace* as we do. Never mind all beneath.

And few can treasure our Liberty so much as we who *use* it.

Few, too, keep oaths as we do. Some will say there is a 'higher authority' they can claim at convenience.

I don't. Call me 'superstitious.'

Or... I keep my oaths. You know oaths, right? These are the nearest thing we can *give* to *integrity* ...among each other, before the Gods, before... This wondrous, living, thoroughly-ensouled landscape we dwell among and must one day.... Be, when our children and nieces and nephews and all spread their arms and senses wide, feel their own weight upon the land we're part of, and say, 'Gramma, who are we?'

We don't get to define our times, but we can keep our oaths.

What I think no one *gets...* without some effort at it, is just how American that *is,* between we Pagans and Heathens alike.

What I think Marctrain from farmland here most needs to know is that our word is good, and our dearest beliefs mean that if we end up in the military, well, you may count on us to protect you, such as is promised.

(And such as we're allowed. Obviously, some folks have introduced some complications, mostly as a means to displace your fears about the fact that no one can protect you perfectly from maniacs. Blame non-Christians, blame lesbians, blame immigrants, blame people who must now be insulted only obliquely or they might stop joining in on blaming the first three cause they're afraid the're next....)

Some argue about 'Who knows "God's Will Best." Pagans and Heathens just agree on our founding principles as Americans and keep our oaths.

Simpler, that way. Especially if some people with Bibles are trying to use you as a scapegoat and/or distraction. :)

I'm always joking that being Pagan means never having to lament having but one life to give for your country. ;)

The funny thing, Thardman, is that here I was about to compliment you about speaking of the heart of things, whatever the terms.

But it seems you do have a bone to pick after all.

But not with me.

I do dimly remember that dude, actually. I forget just what his deal was supposed to be, though.

Claiming the name aside, of course.

Gods know what happened to *him.*
Maybe he grew up. Lady knows *I* did. :)

This, of course, is some overgrown ed-op page of online *Newsweek,* not Usenet.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Right now, what we're looking at is all kinds of s-storms falling on us at once while we try to talk to the neighbors.

This is *not* like soc.religion.paganism

This is Newsweek. This is *Marc* saying, 'Where's the heart?' You spoke the heart, I try to speak the heart.

Also the sense.

There is much noise.

Starhawk's trying to speak both.

And I, for one, respect that. Cause what I hear from you... (Apart from what you said about what we share) Ain't helping Joe Newsweek Reader.

Or these few who seem to suffer from the worst of the madness that's been upon our society.

Do you know why JJ is always after me?

Cause I *listen.* (Well, when you don't *spam,* JJ.) Mad as he may be, mean as he may be about it, ...no one else would seem to. *He* will claim I'm all kinds of people who I am not, and never was, cause *he's frightened.* He actually can't tell the difference between one person, himself, and another.

Spiritual Tourette's, is what he speaks.

Probably doesn't belong here.

But I can hardly say we need to heal the Earth and our society while scorning the worst-afflicted.

Well, not entirely, anyway.

This really isn't the place.

But here it is. Stick around long enough, and you'll see the 'trolls' spew whether we remain silent or not.

At the very moment, we're just trying to be human beings with ...spirit and faith and religion here.

And more sense than the people saying the Air Force cadets should be fighting their Pagan comrades, or else Rev Jeffress' God will start taking out cities via 'enemies' while the... Air Force ain't looking to their job for some mysterious reason.

I've never been to Colorado, but for all this talk... I think it would be clear enough if I could stand on that hillside and say to everyone here, "Who needs what you're so afraid we're up to...

When there's *this.* "

That's the heart of it, is it not, T?

Wrong number, Thardman.

Wrong gender, even.

Beg pardon: "Taleisin" and spelling variants thereon.

You got kicked out of every discussion on Paganism all over the internet.

And now you come to plight your troth to madness and chaos, here.

If you were capable of it, you should feel ashamed.

Trust me, we all feel very ashamed FOR YOU.

If the Xians think you're representative, no wonder they think Pagans are all nuts.

Get thee hence, mouthpiece for Loki.

'apaganplace':

Now I recognize you from UseNet.

I remember how many in the pagan community said that you were the worst possible public relations person for the faiths.

The first law is "first, do no harm" but you are so mad that you don't even recognize your madness nor the harm that you do.

If anyone's coming after you, it's probably pagans outraged at the idiocy you fling hither and yon.

That's okay.

It's coming back to you thrice.

Keep in mind folks: pretentions to faith are no excuse for going off your meds and devolving to the point where you are barely worthy of a good scoffing.

I'm done here.

So is anyone who intends to try to give positive representation to faiths outside of the "Big Five".

l8rs, Taelyn, you batty boob.

When the good Reverend gives up his well appointed church and the great wealth he accrues for dispensing God's word, then he can have an opinion about Pagans, Atheists, or other cults. He is merely protecting his personal earnings by protesting any other type or God-worship that may take hold and deprive him of money he believes should come to him.
This is true of every socalled religious man who seeks to hold onto the power his church affords him. The evangelical leaders,almost to a man, are running corporations which they then pass on to their sons to keep the money in their family. And they are doing it tax free. Where in the Bible did God tell them He is okay with their making money off of Him?

The Air Force Academy has been accused of harassing and forcing the Cadets who are schooled there, to accept Christianity and those who resist are being ostracized. This is what probably lead to a Pagan ritual site. The Academy doesn't give a horse's toot about Paganism, they just need cover for their evangelical efforts in garnering new converts. The American religious communities have been insidious in their efforts to invade our government processes, sneaking in the back doors of Congress promising our worthless leaders eternal salvation if they only do the church leaders bidding.

*brushing aside some of the noise.*

Sorry about all this, Marc. :) Some people do treat any thread involving any other religion than their own as their own personal crank-file. :)

""Apaganplace, again I'm not trying to put you down, but here me out. I never knew this was an actual religion.""

I hear you. When I was growing up, I thought I might be the last Pagan in the world, myself. Turned out it wasn't so, but such were the times. :)

"" Where I grew up everyone was Protestant, with a couple of Catholics and Jews thrown in. I never actually heard that anyone in modern times was a Pagan. So it is news to me. And to be perfectly honest I equated in with satanism. I was wrong on that as I have now read.""

Well, yeah, that's what a lot of the people attacking freedom of religion have been using us to say all along. To be quite honest, they find the idea of Satanic conspiracies which of course revolve all around *them* far more interesting than our own actual heartfelt ways of picking up what's left of our ancient cultures.

The reality's been known to disappoint people who are looking for something scandalous, evil, 'blindly superstitious' or whatever about us.

""So I am trying to understand. This is just not something that existed on the farmlands where I grew up in the '60's. Hell we thought unitarians were odd where I came from.""

marctrain1

Well, "Didn't exist," and "Was not generally-known" aren't quite the same things: after all, look what happens when we stick our heads up even here. :)

Can't say I had any expectation we'd be household words of any kind, twenty years ago, never mind being the canaries in the freedom of religion coalmine.

Funny thing is, if people hadn't been gunning for us so hard, you *still* might not have heard of us: we've really no motivation of our own to advertise, ...but if people are defaming us and coming after our families, well...

I guess that's the real test of religious freedom.

Actually using it when someone's trying to stop you. :)

Just happens to be us, among others.

(And, no, we're not all or even mostly gay, some of these spammers are just kind of obsessed about us not being freaked out that LBGT people exist.

There's someone else that's always been around, even in farmland. Funny how talk gets. :)

'marctrain1' wrote, in-part:

So I am trying to understand. This is just not something that existed on the farmlands where I grew up in the '60's. Hell we thought unitarians were odd where I came from.

======

You might have had something of Paganism all around you as you grew up, but didn't recognize it as such.

If you saw mountains, and said to yourself "this is the work of a Creator", did you maybe think "I will go to the mountains, closer to the work of the Creator, I may better experience the Creator"?

If you felt and thought that, you know the heart of the neo-pagan faiths.

If you looked around you and saw pollution and littering, and if offended you "because it is an offense against the Creator", and stopped littering and fought against pollution, you know the heart of the neo-pagan faiths.

If you loved someone and felt that this was a special gift of the Creator, a holy thing, and vowed to remember it as a blessing, and to preach that love as a blessing and honor and gift and celebration, you know the heart of the neo-pagan faiths.

If you loved your lover in the mountains in a storm and had no fear of lightning, but felt the rain upon your bodies and upon the earth as the glad tears of your Creator, watering the Creation... if you felt those glad tears flowing as love in your heart, upon the land, onto the earth, a blessing raining down on the saint and sinner alike, a gift of life and nutrition from a power that really cared and was doing something to show that caring _now_:

You know the heart of neo-paganism.

If you have felt none of these things, I feel pity for you, and pray that someday you will feel these things: whether in Church, in a stone circle, in a crowded city, or a natural land. What is important is that you feel... and give thanks to your Creator as you conceive that, that you are (like the Creator in the Creation) A Part Of It All.

Sounds like Robert Jeffress would have us live in his version of a bastardized Christian theocracy, ala Taliban.
What a dirtbag POS.
How completely un-American can these Christian freaks be???

'apaganplace' wrote:

And, Thardman, all I was saying about what *you* posted is, whatever your bone to pick is, it's a little unreasonable to expect full attention under the *very* immediate circumstances.

Look at it, will you? What do you want? And what's your deal?

Hold that thought.

======

Why would I expect full attention?

Because:

1) I am the person closest to supporting a totally rational opinion based on the Constitution As Amended: That those who defend our freedoms must surely be entitled to the freedoms they defend... including freedom of religion or freedom from religion, to choose between... in short I support Freedom of Conscience for all of our military service people.

2) I didn't come here with a bone to pick; I came here to offer support for Inclusivity in the military's support for all faiths and for agnostics/atheists as well.

Number 3, on a more personal note: why you seem to think it's more worthy of your time to waste that time in feeding blatant trolling attacks, rather than refine declarations of support for military acceptance of Pagans (or any faith outside of the "Big Five", such faiths/traditions to include for example Jains, Shinto, Confucianism, etc.)... well, why you'd rather escalate a fouforagh rather than Praise Be for getting something you want, and making it concrete, I don't get it.

I have no bone to pick with YOU.

I have no bone to pick with the military for recognizing freedoms for those who defend freedoms.

I have a bone to pick with unreasonable people.

Try to not be one.

Given that the same Air Force flew the F-104 Starfighter, and the Army and Marines only recently retired the MIM-23 HAWK, is Starhawk really that farfetched?

No reasonable designer would put 50mm cannon on a broom, however. The recoil would be excessive. No, in the Real World, they fly MQ-1 Predators firing AGM-65 Hellfires, which does sound rather like Jeffress.

Marctrain, some Unitarians have worked very hard to be considered odd. Please respect it, or see Unitarian Jihad.

Bug hunters? Of course...there has been some distinguished work in entomology by military epidemiologists. But, tjhall1, when did Vishnu issue an order against fellatio? Is it prohibited only when homosexual?

When little cults (e.g. Paganism) and big cults (e.g. Christianity) make a mockery of superstition (e.g. religion), reason and progress are the real winners.

Keep at it, folks!

Our once mighty military is now worshiping bugs and will soon openly allow males to sodomize and fellate each other in their barracks.

God help us all.

Apaganplace, again I'm not trying to put you down, but here me out. I never knew this was an actual religion. Where I grew up everyone was Protestant, with a couple of Catholics and Jews thrown in. I never actually heard that anyone in modern times was a Pagan. So it is news to me. And to be perfectly honest I equated in with satanism. I was wrong on that as I have now read.

So I am trying to understand. This is just not something that existed on the farmlands where I grew up in the '60's. Hell we thought unitarians were odd where I came from.

Also, Marctrain, that is about the most respectful implied request I think I've heard on this board these many years.

*bows*

Whatever can be done to honor it.

I kind of thought that was the purpose of this interfaith board to begin with. :)

""I wouldn't want to insult Starhawk or pagans, but I have to ask do you have any idea how difficult it is for many of us to accept some of the things that are now being touted as acceptable these days""

I understand that you were taught that someone else was yours to 'accept' or not, Marc.

Honestly, it's not Pagans who have been looking for a fight these past twenty or thirty years: it's actually those who have been trying to close the doors to our rights before younger people who don't have such hangups have their say ....that have been trying to do all the demonizing and defaming and ...well, forcing the legal battles.

Those people couldn't give two steaming ones what we *actually* believe, as long as we're quiet enough to be a bogeyman.

We're just the *excuse.*

For something else.

I, for one, Marc, have never had any intent to make you uncomfortable. But... We have suffered for your comfort an awful lot, and it hasn't helped.

I suspect you'd be a lot more comfortable looking any Pagan here in the eyes and asking, 'Are you American,' than any of this noise would make you.

But, for what it's worth, it's not for you to judge, sir. It's just not on you.

But we've been here all along, just as human as you or anyone you know, sir.

For the now, I'd have you take my hand and trust me as a fellow American. There has been certain awkwardness in manifesting our freedoms before, as I'm sure your living memory tells as well as mine.

OK?

I wouldn't want to insult Starhawk or pagans, but I have to ask do you have any idea how difficult it is for many of us to accept some of the things that are now being touted as acceptable these days. When I grew up I had never heard of such a thing, so it is a little hard to wrap my mind around the Airforce accepting this.

In the name of tolerance I would hope that if I tolerate your need to worship whatever it is you worship you will tolerate the fact that for some of over 50 it will take some time to get used to this.

And, Thardman, all I was saying about what *you* posted is, whatever your bone to pick is, it's a little unreasonable to expect full attention under the *very* immediate circumstances.

Look at it, will you? What do you want? And what's your deal?

Hold that thought.

Actually, Ombuds, I find it kind of interesting that you would seem to find someone who doesn't use their 'real' name (as you define it, meaning: assigned at birth by *what* authority...)

As somehow not qualified to speak about the religion of military pilots? In the Air Force?

Do you know what a 'callsign' is?

'apaganplace' wrote, in-part:

You and 'Thardman' seem to have something in common, here:

Apparently you think injustice will become justice if you yammer on interminably with ad hominem attacks and claim it's someone else who's 'off topic.'

Maybe that washes with Christians, I dunno.

But not around me.

======

Um, is that "you" that you're using a singular as in "thou" or an inclusive plural as in "y'all"?

Because frankly I think you have to be talking to "yeal9", since I have done none of the things you mentioned.

But I might pause to suggest that less caffeine or possibly taking a break for dinner might lend a bit more gravity and credibility to some of these responses of yours.

For example, perhaps you can point out to us what's offensive about me suggesting that if the military are expected to defend freedom of religion or freedom from religion, it stands to reason that they be able to enjoy the same rights they defend?

If you're harking back to my jocular remarks about "pretentions craft names", here's a snip from a long post which apparently is still being held back by the moderator:

My patronymic is an "ellis islandisation" of an old Germanic craft name, "Hardtmann", which shares a common root with the English "hardware". The family business was, so it seems, the making of metal things between the crafts of the Smiths and the Locksmiths. Mostly such things as picks, axes, hoes, haps, hinges, and in particular, traps. There is also an English and an Irish "hardman" patronymic with probable similar craft roots, but there's no known family relation.

So, my posting name is in fact a Craft Name... derived from a family name. If you want to call my patronymic pretentious, feel free.

I might add in closing that somehow you seem to have lumped me in with the wackjobs posting here and claiming to be Christians. I find that offensive both by the imputation of being as wacky as some of these folks, and also because I'm not Christian; I'm not far from being a solitary practice Wiccan in most ways, I'm just not a born-again prosyletizer about it like some folks.

Contrast the claim that founding fathers intended US to be a Christian nation with the facts: Article 11 of a Treaty with Tripoli, ratified unanimously by the Senate under John Adams' presidency, states explicitly:
" Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Ombuds:

"""Yes, her name is Starhawk, Ombudsman."

""I'm laughing because it isn't her name.""

*I'm laughing because this is how you name yourself: Never mind someone else:

"" To quote an infamous group of people, *show me the birth certificate*.""

Well, they aren't very bright,either, are they? :)

""If she wants to be taken seriously, she should use her legal name. ""

Why?

Is a 'legal' name more meaningful somehow than the one she's known by in reality?

Maybe it *is* her 'legal' name, for all I know.

Only cost like sixty bucks to change *mine.*

Or maybe you could co attack Samuel Clemens for not using his "real name."

Or is the idea that *really* upsets you the one that people actually *can* name themselves?

""Plus, it's hard to believe an adult mind would call themselves "starhawk". It's like somebody read some bad science fiction and that was the name of a minor character.""

If that's all you can think of that compound word, maybe it's not she who's kept the name since at least 1975 that needs to do some growing up.

""I mean, c'mon."

So do I.

"Yes, her name is Starhawk, Ombudsman."

I'm laughing because it isn't her name. To quote an infamous group of people, *show me the birth certificate*.

If she wants to be taken seriously, she should use her legal name. Plus, it's hard to believe an adult mind would call themselves "starhawk". It's like somebody read some bad science fiction and that was the name of a minor character.

I mean, c'mon.

Can't help but notice you boys, ...none of you, ever actually answer a point. Just repeat yourselves as though said points were never answered.

I'm guessing that if you can type, you're not 'deaf.'

What would you like?

No, 'Yeal,' that's not 'more,' that's the same thing I already told you you'd spammed us with before.

You and 'Thardman' seem to have something in common, here:

Apparently you think injustice will become justice if you yammer on interminably with ad hominem attacks and claim it's someone else who's 'off topic.'

Maybe that washes with Christians, I dunno.

But not around me.

Would you rather I go away so you can claim I 'chickened out' or say 'You never stop talking when I tell you to! This means you don't know about your own religion, unlike me!'

Whatever.

There *is* a topic here.

Noise doesn't change that.

More from Starhawk and her belief in the Goddess:

"Our human intelligence, our particular, sharp-pointed ability to analyze, think, draw conclusions and act, our esthetic/emotional capacity to thrill at a beautiful sunset, our deep bonds with those we love and our empathy and compassion for others, are all aspects of the Goddess Herself.

Indeed, she evolved us complicated, contradictory big-brained creatures precisely to experience some of those aspects. Or to put it simply, she gave us brains and she expects us to use them."

More on Starhawk's close comparison to Pat Robertson can be found at:

http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2005/starhawk-the-pagan-pat-robertson/ to see the complete opinion.

I think that our electricity shortage could be cured by building a generator with a very long shaft.

Tie a Pagan activist on one side of the shaft, and a Evangelist activist on the other side of the shaft. Then start up this debate again.

Problem of motive force to turn the generator, solved.

Just say "First Amendment Rights" and they'll go round and round and round...

""My point was mostly that it doesn't matter _which_ religion anyone follows, if they take it too dang seriously,""

When I need to know who's taking what too 'dang' seriously,' I'll know where to go, then.

Now, we're going to give our troops a nice, and free-to-taxpayers-some-say-don't-include-Pagans a place to gather and pray.

If you don't mind do very much.

And in this place, we're going to try and *not* scare the mundanes into notions that 'Earth Religion' is 'trivial' or 'evil' Just cause some dude or other on the Net wants to harp on the notion all day.

Dig?

Since, I guess, Gods forbid (or someone else's forbid) that Pagans should have a say in how 'legitimate' our 'temples' are if we note someone desecrates them with hatred and fear:

Even if it's just some stones no one was otherwise using.

Which may or may not have been astronomically-aligned in all the general kerfuffle:

Now I will repeat myself. If we're past yet another round of people screaming 'You don't exist!'

Said this earlier.

As for the Dalai Lama quote, no, we don't need 'temples.' Doesn't mean we can't *have* one.

Reminds me of a favorite song: imagine it'd be great to sing in that setting, too, if no one minds too much. :)

"Bye, bye, shadowlands
The term is over...
And all the hollydays have begun...
Now She walks in fresh fields
Her tracks are on the land...
She is everywhere and noplace

Her church not made with hands

When it's dark and evening calls
She moves among men
They would seek to have Her as a prize
But She is in the shadows,
The ocean and the sand
She is everywhere and noplace

Her church not made with hands

Not contained by man

She is dancing high as clouds
Faster than the arrow
Straight as any crow that flies
Across great seas She travels
Up through rising lands

She is everywhere and noplace
Her church not made with hands

Isn't that a pretty Sun...."

-Waterboys, 1983

It's getting somewhat beyond silly at this juncture.

My point was mostly that it doesn't matter _which_ religion anyone follows, if they take it too dang seriously, they're probably not too far from ither hystrionic or delusional or quite possibly both... and if they aren't in either or both of those states, if they keep flogging themselves and anyone else they can find, they soon will be in one or both of those states.

Hey, look, okay, so some folks get all gung-ho about their religion.

Could be worse, they could be political activists.

;-P

""Circle of boulders? Weak.""

Is it, then.

What kind of boulders do *you* think it takes while complaining about 'taxpayer expenditures' that *never existed.*

Now you complain about 'temples' built by military the lowest bidder, (namely, free? Possibly less than free, cause if Pagans hadn't found use for the extra boulders, the taxpayers (among whom Pagans *are,*) would have been charged transport costs to push them into a ditch?

I don't know how many times I have to say it, including to your face right here, but this didn't cost *us* an extra *dime.*

You want authenticity, give everyone back what Christians took.

If you don't want to do *that,*

Don't complain about the landscaping.

"""Good article. No reason why we shouldn't have a little stonehenge at the academy.
""Good article. No reason why we shouldn't have a little stonehenge at the academy.
Posted by: ZZim ""
Well, it's a little more like 'A couple of circles of extra boulders some people of Earth religion could sit on or gather in,' but the Astronomy department seems to have had a hand in the design. Could be aligned to something, but hey. If all the satellite feeds go down, at least they'll know what day it is. :)
Posted by: APaganplace |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Circle of boulders? Weak. Even the paleolithic Native Americans had major astronomically correct stone circles. You gotta know when the mammoths are going to migrate, after all.

A henge isn't that difficult. The AF Academy can do better than a few boulders. If cut stone is too expensive then there's no reason not to build a wood henge.

Well, probably not gona be many folks around for summer solstice anyway.

Any more reasons you'd like to propose how queer Pagans should be kept from intelligence traffic analysis, CCNL, or are we just the wrong side of some 'abstraction' of yours?

Would you like some more 'superstition?'

Or would you rather just keep spanking the contents of your tighty-whiteys and saying it harms someone else? :)

""It's more like shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

Posted by: captn_ahab""

Maybe it's more like, "Check fire, check fire!"

Captain Ahab.

For all those who believe I am in serious need of help, I have yet to see anyone comment on the intellectual and theological issues raised here about monotheism versus paganism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELayn0vvMh0.

It's more like shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

""Jeffress is a nasty whack job and a good argument for the Second Amendment.""

Actually, he's about the worst *possible* argument for the Second Amendment and among the best ones going right now for the First.

Which isn't to say said 'Christian' preacher doesn't make a fairly scary case for 'PP needs a firearm to protect herself from my followers!'

But: A) That's giving up on America.
And: B) I've gotten through four decades in this life without shooting anyone. If some religious twitch wants to break my safety record, I will be *very* put out.

Jeffress is a nasty whack job and a good argument for the Second Amendment. Hopefully he'll shut up and go drink some koolaid.

Also, btw. Please pardon if for some mysterious reason I become *flustered* at all this.

Can only multitask so far.

Bet it'd have been good enough to take full advantage of an F-14, though, if they were letting gals fly when I was of age. ;)

""Is it just me, or is there both a lot of misattribution and a general lack of understanding?""

*looking at watch.*

Yes. Glad you figured that out after I mentioned two or three times that it's hard to discuss your milder prejudices while there are maniacs shouting at us from all sides, ...which might have given you some kind of impression that 'Because this is happening near Pagans, they're all crazy!'

The finer points of spiritual practice aren't going too far. Soon as we finish with the people saying, 'I think I found something on the Internet that says you're being superstitious,' so maybe my 'opinion' is burn *everybody* at the stake!'

Well. Dude.

The *Air Force Academy* has 'witch burners' directing their attention at it to try and attack the Free Exercise clause... Saying that America is doomed by airstrikes from the Christian God!!!!.... unless the Air Force, instead of, oh, I don't know, trains people in strategic air defense instead of staging witch-hunts when Earth religions want to celebrate among some repurposed boulders that had to be moved anyway?

If someone wants to burn you at the stake, they tend to be unimpressed by someone saying, "That's historically-inaccurate! You're supposed to *hang* me! Burning's for heretics!' What a 'fraud' you're burning!

Soon as I get the pitch-soaked ropes off our ankles, we can talk about the finer points. :)

Just to clear up something...

When I use the word "superstition", what I mean is that particular belief in a sort of cause-and-effect relationship which has no demonstrated actual cause-and-effect sequence.

For example, if I were to say "because of (a), therefor (huge class of things, but all sharing the quality of 'bad', or 'undesirable')", there's no causality and in fact it might be like saying that if you go for a walk without an umbrella, you might get wet. That may be true, but you might get wet less because you were unprepared for a cloudburst, and more because someone dumped a bucket on you, or you fell into a lake. Nonetheless, you failed to take an umbrella and you did get wet. The superstitious mindset, as I use the word, remembers the "prophecy" and has experienced the result, but does not discern between actual causation (caught in a rainstorm with no umbrella) and comparable results with no linkage (fell in a lake with no umbrella).

It's not exactly insane, but it also isn't logical, to place the credit on the "prophecy" -- "you will go out without an umbrella and will end up all wet" -- as the causal force. It's technically referred to as "credulity", I seem to recall.

Is it just me, or is there both a lot of misattribution and a general lack of understanding?

I somehow doubt that the almighty is going to lay waste the cities of North America just because the US military has freedom of faith and that Pagans have a rock circle at the USAF Academy.

Sorry about the misattibution, by the way, but speaking of who I'm standing between:

""If you want to believe that the gods need offerings to be placated or that the sun won't rise if the gods are not offered a human heart..... so be it....

Little things like that, apaganplace :(""

If you want to think you can claim that has *anything* to do with Paganism...

Sorry, wrong number.

At the moment, we're dealing with people who claim that the Christian God will destroy cities if Pagan people are not oppressed in America, in the name of someone claiming they're not-being-superstititious. :)

Sorry bout that bit, Thardman, You're not being altogether unreasonable, but we do seem to be saying 'You're all nuts!' because I happen to be standing between what appear to be a sociopath and a schizophrenic. :)

""Neoclassicism is a movement in art and architecture. It has nothing to do with religion or politics. ""

And, of course, art and architecture and symbol never in any way reflect religion or politics?

(the below's for JJ.)

And, 'Ahab,' ...As a personal favor to me, shut up a minute.

Ever notice how you and JJ feed off each other, whatever the ostensible 'target?'

Once in a while, I see someone in that much distress and I actually gotta try making with the *healing* especially before he hurts someone else.

If you got a cry for help you can hold onto till later, Ahab, allow me to refer you to qualified professionals.

Or wait your turn.

Information is not the same as 'knowledge,' and 'knowledge' is not the same thing as 'information.

Neither of these make what you keep saying here, 'true.'

Nor does the untruth of what you say about others mean that others might take those 'photons' away.

Do you hear me, Jacob?

I know you're scared. When you speak at my people, or these other people, what I would like you to do is *breathe.*

Your words are... Well, incoherent and often very nasty.

Somewhere behind that keyboard you're hanging over is a human man who doesn't know what to do with some 'Light.'

It scares you, we scare you, 'other people' scare you.

Breathe.

It's not *safe* in the world, or even probably in your own head right now, but we're not your enemies.

There is no one you can hurt that will change anything you use your words to try and 'fight.'

Sometimes, Jacob, it's a little less scary to think 'The whole world is against me!' than it is to think, 'The whole world is not, but bad things have happened, anyway.'

Someone taught you some fears. You are obviously feeling them. What you feel about words you read and what you feel when someone says something else... Are not you. are not the words, are not the world.

Breathe, friend.

If you'll be a friend.

You got plenty of 'light.' It's all over. All in all this *stuff,* all these words, all these thoughts, all these people.

The thing to do about it is not to confuse who's being who, right now.

What you need right now, is a *you.* A human man. There's obviously plenty else, right?

Breathe. Touch yourself in the head. That *is* there, right now. Possibly a confusing place to be right now. That's OK.

Just feel it.

Breathe.

Right down through your body. Feel it.

It's not an idea or an argument. It's nothing you can try and argue away. It just is.

I'm sorry it hurts.

I'm sorry it probably feels pretty crazy in there.

No one says anybody needs to be harmed over it. You understand, perhaps, that I can't allow ou to just harm others, here.

Breathe.

Feel some gravity. Just breathe.

Then turn all this talk off and spend some time just doing what only you can do.

K?

You can do that, and there's nothing we or the Christians or anyone can *take away* about it.

Breathe.

Apaganplace wrote:

"mean, fo course, the Founding Fathers were kinda 'retro,' too... That's why they call a lot of that stuff about freedom and democracy and symbolism, 'Neoclassicalism'

Little things like that, Ahab. :)

You are a little confused both about religion and Neoclassicism (there is no "neoclassicalism").

Neoclassicism is a movement in art and architecture. It has nothing to do with religion or politics.

If you want to believe that the gods need offerings to be placated or that the sun won't rise if the gods are not offered a human heart..... so be it....

Little things like that, apaganplace :(

I mean, fo course, the Founding Fathers were kinda 'retro,' too... That's why they call a lot of that stuff about freedom and democracy and symbolism, 'Neoclassicalism'

Little things like that, Ahab. :)

""Starhawk should put her rattles and magic potions down and listen carefully. Some Israelites over 2,000 years ago saw through the whole scam of gods and godesses....""

captn_ahab

Well, speaking of 'careful what you name yourself...' :)

You're the one with a thing about 'rattles and magic potions,' aren't you?

I'll respect the new name, though, it's our way. Call us 'retro.' :)

Ronald Hutton seems to dress a lot like Dr. Who. Kind of charming, really. :)

""APAGAN! With 42 out of 116 posts (35%).""

Yeah, but how many of them were replies to you and Yeal trying to spam and lie?

I think you made a post on every board claiming to have 'exposed my elaborate and JJ-centered conspiracy' to 'secretly morph' from 'Paganplace' to 'A Pagan Place' ...all beginning with my first post prefaced to the effect of, "Hi, everyone, it's Paganplace, I mislaid my old password." How sinister and deceptive-witchy! :)

While of course, you have a new name every time you sneak past being *repeatedly banned for spamming and hate-speech and obscenity?*

It's me. And on rare occasions where I actually *repeat* a post or cut and paste anything, I say so.

For those who feel there is something a little bit retro about Neopaganism versus ethical monotheism, but you can't quite put your finger on it. This explains it all in very straightforward terms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELayn0vvMh0

Starhawk should put her rattles and magic potions down and listen carefully. Some Israelites over 2,000 years ago saw through the whole scam of gods and godesses....

Based on the common occurence of church bus accidents, it's obvious that God hates Christian youth groups.

That statement is just as bogus as the pronouncements of Mega-church plate passers and televangelist con artists against "unbelievers".

What an evil God most Christians worship.

"Dallas pastor..." You know what's coming as soon as you see that.

Frak his god and his followers.

I think "Starhawk" is just trying to get her name on some new missile or ABM system...

""Personally I am not a big fan of superstition nor of those who try to use superstition to try to control the minds and actions of others; to me, that is not freedom and farther still from liberty.""

thardman

Nor am I a fan of such things. But who needs superstition when you got *magic.* :) Doesn't mean Starhawk is some kind of charlatan because you'd perhaps prefer another view and dismiss her cause of her 'craft name.'

(Frankly, I find nothing pretentious *about* that name. Quite a something to take on, but there's meaning to it. Saying someone named Elkhardt is a more serious and honest person than someone named 'Elkheart' ...Doesn't wash with me. )

Take it from an old 'hex-breaker.' (And much of what I've been known for is

Saying, "This is all superstiton: it should not/cannot exist" doesn't actually save many people from freaking out when they experience what couldn't/shouldn't be anyway. Trying to drive 'it' away with a book of physics is no more effective than a Bible reading.

Trying to associate *our* faiths with 'superstition,' whether it comes from a Christian, Heathen, or atheist... does not protect people from scams. Only sets people up to be unable to cope when something outside what they think they can control happens.

That's when I'd get called in.

What I think is *superstition* is not anything about Starhawk, but rather what some people want to try and dismiss Earth religions *as* being superstition and charlatanry... then say that 'If you don't do bad things to Earth religions because I say I think some Wiccan type is silly.... Horrible things will happen...'

*That's* what I call 'superstition.'

Within my own faith group, I've always been much more of a 'warder' than strictly-speaking healer, but the fields are related. Scams and charlatanry and exploitations and just plain screw-ups are ninety-nine percent of the time someone's own *playing themselves or getting played* over small things, or damage from maybe-bigger things.

Deception or self-deception, 'You can't,' or 'Only I or my God/book/technique can' ...Not 'Hey, let's see what we can do, here.'

Most 'occult scams,' like most 'spiritual warfare' or other abuse.... Really, in the end boils down to someone exploiting ignorance, fear, and desire, to satisfy some pretty banal and predictable motives on the charlatans' part. Usually pretty boring, actually.

Starhawk is no spoon-bender or charlatan. Or 'prophet' as some would say in most ways. She's often, and by many, in our community, sharply questioned on many of her procedures and activist workings.

As a columnist here, she usually represents *well.*

It's not someone with a 'pretentious Craft name' to watch out for.

It's someone who doesn't know what their own name means.

I know little about Paganism, or about Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or any number of other religions for that matter. But, I have to find it funny that a group of people who worship images of a dead man hanging on a cross, and symbolically consume his flesh and blood as part of their ceremonies and rites have the cojones to look down on Pagans.

Have you ever seen the Air Force Academy?

It's in Colorado Springs.

You know how much effort it would take to make a circle of rocks?

Very darn little. Because the whole area is rock. In fact, it would be easier to just dump a truckload of dirt pretty much anywhere, and it would 'instantly' be 'surrounded' by rocks.

That doesn't sound like too much of an imposition on the Academy to me.

'apaganplace' wrote, in-part and quoting in part 'thardman':

""To the person who felt the need to enlighten me about Asatru, thanks, "but I already knew that". I was being facetious.""

I thought so from your name, Thardman, [...]"

======

Hey, I could have created a(nother) bogus account with a Pretentious Craft Name (tm) but figured there was enough of that going around.

Look, I think that all of the arguments here could be very simply resolved by pointing out that the mission and intentions of the military are to preserve and defend the Constitution as Amended and if they're defending rights such as freedom of/from religion, their own exercise of such rights must also be defended.

Now it would be easy to rip into this or that or another faith and/or lack thereof -- while pausing to note that my own faith is mostly a little "god-spot"-stimulating ritual marking the passing of seasons, lathered on top of a lot of peer-reviewed academic and scientific journals -- but that doesn't move the argument forward. That's just vituperation or trolling for vituperation.

So once again, I have the opinion that there's not much sense in suppressing the rights of people who put their lives on the line to defend the rights of others.

Personally I am not a big fan of superstition nor of those who try to use superstition to try to control the minds and actions of others; to me, that is not freedom and farther still from liberty.

Also, Yeal, that's not the *topic,* that's someone's inflammatory *opinion* about the *writer* that you already spammed us with before at least once on this thread. You seem to be good at cut and paste... Scroll *down* if you are expecting a different answer after doing the same thing over and over.

Between JJ's theological *Tourette's* and your obsessions, *of course* it gets noisy here. Making it worse won't help.

Unless of course, it's not *communication* you want, here?

""To the person who felt the need to enlighten me about Asatru, thanks, "but I already knew that". I was being facetious.""

I thought so from your name, Thardman, but.. Careful of taking such things for granted, here. Most of those who want to call us all evil or whatever may occasionally be *persistent,* but aren't exactly known for either reading comprehension, a sense of humor, or much of an attention span. :)

In case you missed it because of the non-topic chatter:

"Starhawk: The Pagan Pat Robertson

By Brian Carnell – September 21, 2005

Earlier this month, I mentioned my disdain for pagan activist Starhawk. But I did not appreciate just how nutty she is until my wife directed me to Starhawk’s A Pagan Response to Katrina.
"
Scroll down past all the non-topic items below to see more and go to

http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2005/starhawk-the-pagan-pat-robertson/ to see the complete opinion.

To the person who felt the need to enlighten me about Asatru, thanks, "but I already knew that". I was being facetious.

Seriously: a couple of years ago, I was running for elected office in Montgomery County, MD.

Somehow I had got my hands on the "Gangs In Schools Survey". See also my blog posting about that at http://oldblog.thomashardman.com/2008/03/gangs-in-schools-survey.html

In summary of that,

The question asked in the survey that seems to me to be most openly weird?

"[H]ave there been any reports of occult-type activities among students in your school during the last year (e.g., dabbling in satanism, witchcraft, odinism, etc)"

You might as well ask "have there been any reports of religious recruitement activities among students in your school during the last year". Or, "have you identified the unbelievers and heretics".

Just say "no" to gangs, just say "no" to racial extremism and hatred, and also just say "no" to intolerance of religion.

Seriously, if folks want to worry about the "occult", as in "hidden and secretive", they'd be better off looking into "cause stalking" networks. While hardly as bizarre as certain widespread writers to the net suggest, such things do exist and almost certainly they have their sights set on "alternative religion" no more or less than they have their sights set on tracking paroled sex-offenders.

""Good article. No reason why we shouldn't have a little stonehenge at the academy.

Posted by: ZZim ""

Well, it's a little more like 'A couple of circles of extra boulders some people of Earth religion could sit on or gather in,' but the Astronomy department seems to have had a hand in the design. Could be aligned to something, but hey. If all the satellite feeds go down, at least they'll know what day it is. :)

Good article. No reason why we shouldn't have a little stonehenge at the academy.

See what I mean, here:

""Pssst. Secret: Ye mentioned The "Air Force" ""

Yes, JJ, this is because the *topic* relates to the *Air Force* Academy.

You of all people should value our American right to free association, but there actually is a topic here not-involving-you.

""Next Month the Air force is going to start a project to Mount Dual Caliber 50MM machine guns on Pagan Flying Brooms so they can help the Gays blow away the enemy.

Posted by: mont9744""

Speaking of military aviation... Seems to me we're not the ones who've 'departed the envelope' here.

""Why is there so much spam on this post?

Posted by: ViejitaDelOeste""

Cause a lot of Christians hate us, and a lot of atheists think we're an easy target? And cause a lot of crazy people spam *everywhere?* :)

Next Month the Air force is going to start a project to Mount Dual Caliber 50MM machine guns on Pagan Flying Brooms so they can help the Gays blow away the enemy.

""Why are taxpayers obliged by law to support someone else's religion when there are plenty of private options already available?

Posted by: Freestinker ""

We may have crossed posts, there, since they were only four minutes apart, Stinker, but I'd just gotten finished saying that this circle of stones *did not* cost the taxpayers a dime.

Unlike certain other edifices nearby.

Why is there so much spam on this post?

""Wow, with all of the madness and hatred spawned by a decision to allocate time and space to a VERY peaceful Earth Religion, I cannot imagine the frolics that will result if the military ever recognizes Asatru.

;)

Posted by: thardman ""

Don't let anyone think Asatru is a 'violent religion,' as some want to either claim it is, or pretend it is, for their own purposes.

Most of the Asatru and other Heathens I've met are actually farmers, believe it or not. .

I believe they're recognized by the military, though, even if they can't yet be buried on military graves under their own sacred symbols.

After a decade-long struggle, those who go with the pentacle have recently been able to have the dignity of not having their religion erased or over-written on their own military headstones. (Some people really just don't want *that* interrupting their associations of monotheism with patriotism, I suppose.)

Honorable and practical folks, in general, actually. A somewhat different branch of the Pagan revival: in discussing theology and practice and the like, it's easy to confuse the two. Not to mention with a lot of people the Asatru and other Heathens most certainly *do not* approve of. Scuffle over quite a bit, actually.

Most of the people used to try and give Asatru a bad name aren't even what you could call a 'splinter group of Heathenry,' ...more a splinter group of the Aryan Nations, and the "Church of Jesus Christ Christian" who say Odin and use Nazi symbols a lot cause they think even right wing Christianity's too Jewish for them, even if their 'message' is no different.

Hard not to be confused, but that's not Asatru. Most of them are no more polytheist than the Pope, never mind anything like a *culture.* Just a *gang.*

Just so everyone's clear on that.

(continued from above:)

As much as possible, anyway: it'd take some effort even for someone who *wants* to know to distinguish what's up even *without* people trying to actively confuse and defame.

One thing I think Pagan traditions of whatever origin share, though, as relates to the military and all this, is some manner of sense of honor and a faith that the coolness of the Universe manifests in many different forms.

We have our pacifists, such as Starhawk, and we have others who will fight. But we don't need to turn the rest of the world into imaginary 'devils' to bypass some 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' commandment or twist it into 'Now Thou Must Kill.'

People do tend to be confused on these issues: among our many Gods are certainly Those who teach us about and support us in, 'War.' I know it seems paradoxical to warlike 'Religions of Peace,' ...but actually, knowing of 'Gods of War' is a big reason we're so *peaceful.*

So many monotheists use *martial metaphors for *everything.* 'war on this, war on that, Culture war, spiritual war,'

Most Pagans who fight have some kind of notion one does *not* call on the Blackwing *lightly.* Never mind have to say someone's the 'Devil' if you disagree with them.

Personally, I think our general ideal ends up kind of like Jedi with more singing. :)

What a breath of fresh air after the stale and obsessive musings of Pastor Jeffress last week. Starhawk shows a profound understanding of the fact that no one's rights are safe if someone's rights are threatened.

If Pagans can be discriminated against, if they aren't equal before the law, then ANY religious group can be discriminated against, and no one is really equal before the law. That is so fundamental (no pun intended) that I am constantly surprised how often it is missed.

If people following Starhawk's path can be denied worship facilities, people following Pastor Jeffress's path can be denied their facilities. It's only a matter of time and opinion. Our rights are only secure when they are secure for everyone. I offer kudos to Starhawk for understanding that. I have only sorrow for Pastor Jeffress, that he doesn't.

Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress is both a bigot; and a closet jihadist. People like him froth at the mouth for the return to the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials to give them the opportunity to torture and murder in the name of their so-called god. Not one iota of difference between his ideology and Al Qaeda's.

Kudos to the USAF, and the Academy for constructing this structure as an all faith's outdoor service area; and not a single faith restricted one.

Contrary to the clear and wise advice in our Constitution, the government has sponsored a minority religion in a transparent attempt to justify it's sponsorship of the majority religion. Two wrongs don't make a right. Surely there are plenty of churches of every possible stripe in Colorado Springs to accommodate the Cadets religious needs?

Why are taxpayers obliged by law to support someone else's religion when there are plenty of private options already available?

""I'm offended that my tax dollars support any form of worship. ""

Then you should check facts: the Circle at the AFA didn't cost any taxpayer dollars: the boulders had to be moved *somewhere* from an unstable hillside that was a safety hazard, anyway.

As for the Dalai Lama quote, no, we don't need 'temples.' Doesn't mean we can't *have* one.

Reminds me of a favorite song: imagine it'd be great to sing in that setting, too, if no one minds too much. :)

"Bye, bye, shadowlands
The term is over...
And all the hollydays have begun...
Now She walks in fresh fields
Her tracks are on the land...
She is everywhere and noplace

Her church not made with hands

When it's dark and evening calls
She moves among men
They would seek to have Her as a prize
But She is in the shadows,
The ocean and the sand
She is everywhere and noplace

Her church not made with hands

Not contained by man

She is dancing high as clouds
Faster than the arrow
Straight as any crow that flies
Across great seas She travels
Up through rising lands

She is everywhere and noplace
Her church not made with hands

Isn't that a pretty Sun...."

-Waterboys, 1983

"Bye, by

I'm offended that my tax dollars support any form of worship.

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
Dalai Lama

Perhaps next time there is a drought in Colorado, Ms. Starhawk can lead a rain dance dedicated to the raingod to end the drought.

Wow, with all of the madness and hatred spawned by a decision to allocate time and space to a VERY peaceful Earth Religion, I cannot imagine the frolics that will result if the military ever recognizes Asatru.

;)

""Look at some of the comments below! Good night, some of you people are off your meds!

Posted by: mlincoln1""

Well, we get all *kinds* of crazy directed at us: that includes Rev. Jeffress and those Fundies trying to oppress non-Christians in the military by desecrating their gathering places with intimidation, among other things possible when a military command structure is abused: and in society at large by claiming their God will destroy cities or the world if Earth religions have a place to pray. ...Threatening Christians with 'divine vengeance' if they *don't hurt us.*

Once again.

Just like they blamed us for 9/11.

Yeah, it's crazy. 'JJ/Mastermind' is just one guy who talks *really* crazy. Does this nearly every thread when he isn't banned from here or something, but he's just one dude, an we have tried to show compassion for him in the past. He has a particular frenzy against us...me and a few others in particular, because we've *listened* to him in the past, whereas I suppose people ignoring him means he can think he's Right whenever he says something about someone else.

Yeal really resents our lack of scriptures and authorities for him to feel 'rationally' superior to, that's why goes around quoting whatever he thinks 'sounds' crazy.

Some people just think taking names that *mean something* makes us ridiculous, usually in total ignorance that a lot of the names they consider 'normal' from older cultures may mean stuff very like that: people have just forgotten. What do you expect, names out of the family Bible? :)

We of course have a bit of a laugh ourselves when someone goes really overboard, but actually, what most people consider 'regular' names tend to seem quite indicative of certain other religions' desire to enforce conformity upon others: very identities, even from birth.

The 'mainstream' culture I grew up in had a lot of really redundant first names in any given class, and people were made fun of or worse if they had one even slightly colorful.

Yes, her name is Starhawk, Ombudsman. Get over it.

Anyhow, what these trolls and apocalyptic preachers have to say *about* Pagans and other people of 'Earth religions' ...Has nothing to do with what the Air Force Academy circle is about. But maybe it shows up the *need* for a little bit more diversity training. Sad fact is, a couple of trolls can drown out our voices on even such a basic issue of free exercise and martial justice as this.

Frankly, I think it certainly can't be any good for military effectiveness or cohesion for Christians and others training our troops and young officers to hate and fear anyone different... to be staging witch hunts and defiling people's prayer space with hatred.

Trying to relate the Founding Fathers with Pagans is ludicrous!
What a waste of space and time!!

Look at some of the comments below! Good night, some of you people are off your meds!

Our military is being destroyed: Bug worshiping and men sodomizing and fellating each other are now in the norm.

Homosexuality is a filthy, disease-ridden practice explicitly condemned by God.

We are doomed.

Starhawk?

STARHAWK?

Seriously? C'mon. I had to check the date wasn't April 1.

If this wasnt so sad, I'ld laugh.

If this wasnt so funny, I'ld cry.

I'm laughing and crying at the same time.

"Starhawk: The Pagan Pat Robertson
By Brian Carnell – September 21, 2005
Earlier this month, I mentioned my disdain for pagan activist Starhawk. But I did not appreciate just how nutty she is until my wife directed me to Starhawk’s A Pagan Response to Katrina.
"

Scroll down past all the non-topic items below to see more and go to http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2005/starhawk-the-pagan-pat-robertson/ to see the complete opinion.

But, hey, JJ, maybe there's a little hint from all your 'research' of today: Though some have gone to great effort recently to teach you otherwise: Believe it or not, once upon a time, human history was made by lots of people who *didn't* fixate on *you* or on your 'Not, not, not being Gay!'

Might help sort you out, there. :)

Ah! It must all be an elaborate plan from the 'past several months' involving you picking yesterday to reveal you had no clue Alexander was bi before you worked him into your 'prophecies' as an exemplar of your homophobia and brought him up on a totally-unrelated thread!

Yeah, that would conceivably be pretty desperate... From someone.

It'll like, be OK, JJ. But you should know better than to try and lie to Pagans at this point.

Anyway, 'Mastermind.' And this goes for you, too, 'Yeal,' (Sorry if we 'drown out' your paranoiac and apparently-obsesive-compulsive *spam* with anything so base as being *on topic,* regarding civil justice for Pagans in the military and elsewhere, who you're yammering at, or what legal implications this may *have* for some kind of society in which people don't have to live in fear of the government enforcing someone's *psychosis* on anyone said spammers figure they can drown out by calling 'Witches...'

(Funny thing about 'witch trials,' by the way, like anti-gay pogroms, the both of you, all of your fulminations will *not* protect you from being accused of these things, if you take away the civil rights of others. Not even if you're as straight as Don Juan and as repressed and Fundie as Augustine. Maybe this is something you should try and register, here. )

Just like high school,just like prison. Did screaming, "I'm not a homo! I'm not an Apostate! Hurt someone else!"

...Work, much?

""And New Orleans survived. Not without loss, and death, but without the massive flooding and destruction that was feared. We all breathed a sigh of relief.""

YEAL9 |

Whatever else you may say, I tend to find it better than people praying for, and then gloating about, the destruction of *any* city, in the name of Evangelical Christianity, cause there's someone they disapprove of, there, (Which of course, means, *anywhere,* after all... )

So they can then swoop in abduct 'orphans' (who they were told explicitly were *not* orphans... And that it was illegal to cart them away to Montana, anyway,) and say, "All these people died because we 'love' you! It's your fault! That we do this!"

Nah, Concerned Christian.

Whether or not you believe anyone can ask a hurricane to take it easy on population centers, it sure beats cramming em *into* population centers and then praying for... and gloating about... doom to befall people who aren't intolerant enough of themselves for your liking, and taking credit for... two hundred thousand deaths from an earthquake.

I know you're all fussed about the very *idea* of magic, but how many levees do you think the Fundies reinforced while praying for the destruction of New Orleans and the death of anyone 'against small government?' ....So Bush can say 'This was an 'act of God' that no one (Except apparently the Discovery channel and the Army Corps of Engineers and even insurance companies, for once) ...could have foreseen?"

How many levees were being reinforced while the Religious Right was proclaiming "Doom will befall us if we don't spend seven years fixated on Clinton being 'sexually-immoral' before he even does any such thing?!"

Whatever you may think of prayer or magic, do you really think it's the people doing so *against* suffering of others that you ought to be worried about?

Clouds weigh as much as freight trains, it doesn't mean you need to push others onto the tracks.

"Starhawk: The Pagan Pat Robertson
By Brian Carnell – September 21, 2005

Earlier this month, I mentioned my disdain for pagan activist Starhawk. But I did not appreciate just how nutty she is until my wife directed me to Starhawk’s A Pagan Response to Katrina.

The article is bizarre through-and-through, but the highlight is the Pat Robertson moment,

"The forms and names we put on Goddesses, Gods, and Powers help translate those forces into terms our human minds can grasp. And so the Yoruba based traditions that originate in West Africa have given the name ‘Oya’ to the whirlwind, the hurricane, to those great powers of sudden change and destruction. Santeria, candomble, lucumi, voudoun, all include Oya in some form as a major orisha, a Great Power. Offerings are made to her, ceremonies done in her behalf, priestesses dance themselves into trance possession so that she can communicate with directly with the human community.

No city in the U.S. has more practitioners of these traditions than New Orleans. On the night the hurricane was due to hit, I made a ritual with a small group of friends to support the spiritual efforts that I knew were being made by priestesses of Oya all over the country. We were in Crawford, Texas, at Camp Casey, where Gold Star mother Cindy Sheehan, whose son was killed in Itaq, camped near Bush’s ranch to confront Bush with the painful reality of the deaths his policies have caused. Many of the supporters there were from New Orleans, worried about their homes, their friends and families. The overall culture of the camp was very Christian—we found no natural opening for public Pagan ritual, although a number of people did indicate to me quietly that they were ‘one of us.’ But our little group gathered by the roadside, cast a circle, chanted and prayed.

We prayed, speaking personally in the way humans do: “ Please, Mama, we know what a mess we’ve made, but if there is any way to mitigate the death and the destruction, to lessen it slightly, please do.” That same night Christians were praying and Orisha priestesses were ‘working’ Oya, and the hurricane did shift its course, slightly, and lessened its force, down to a Category Four.

And New Orleans survived. Not without loss, and death, but without the massive flooding and destruction that was feared. We all breathed a sigh of relief."
"""""

I didn't mean "file those charges by spamming *here,*" JJ! :)

*facepalming.*

*laugh.*

OK, you file those charges, JJ. But they *gotta* let the TV cameras in. :)

We've heard crazier accusations from Evangelicals. Much to the same effect, actually. But this would make good entertainment. :)

Why, yes, Yeal. Starhawk is an *author.* Authors have an interesting way of writing *books.*

If you don't mind so very much.

If you're done cutting and pasting the Internet to this comments section, like you're the only one on the planet who can Google and quote Wikipedia, there's a certain issue here that could *possibly* merit some discussion among serious-minded Americans.

Thank you.

For those interested in Starhawk's books:

The Beginner's Guide to Wicca

Dagra Perkisian Dynasty

Raising Children in Goddess Traditions

Dreaming the Dark: Magic, Sex, and Politics:

The Earth Path: Grounding Your Spirit In The Rhythms Of Nature

Exploring The Pagan Path: Wisdom From The Elders

The Fifth Sacred Thing

Modern Pagans: An Investigation of Contemporary Pagan Practices

The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess

Truth or Dare: Encounters With Power, Authority, and Mystery

The Twelve Wild Swans

La Danza En Espiral/the Spiral Dance

Dance

Barferio:

""I'm afraid I have to go in the other direction. Instead of allowing pagans and whomsoever to have religious places paid for and supported by the taxpayer - in an effort to prevent the christianists from stopping everybody else - I'm more interested in the idea of removing all religious support by the taxpayers.This means no christians, no pagans, no muslims, no pastafarians etc. You can worship or commune with or whatever it is you do with your god or gods on your own time, on your own dime.""

Actually, the circle for the Earth religions to meet in there wasn't constructed at any taxpayer expense: the stones were scheduled to be moved anyway, because they *came* from a hillside where they were a safety hazard, and the fireplace was from money people raised.

There's some advantages to preferring to celebrate outside. :)

This one can't be chalked up to 'Oh, I don't want the almighty Tax Dollar used for this, now that a smaller target is involved!'

The issue here is that some Christianists want to say *Pagans* and other 'Earth Religions' shouldn't be able to pray while Christian Fundamentalists can try to turn the military into their own recruiting thing.

Frankly, I think the "Yeal/CCNL JJ/Mastermind show" here shows that right now we need to concentrate on upholding free exercise and reasonable accommodation and equal protection under the law, and how these principles are reflected in the military, not have atheists decide to take it out on Pagan people. Or claim there's some 'gravy train' Pagan troops are riding.

Btw, JJ? CCNL? You're confused about who owns what. Or just lying.

Witchvox isn't 'Starhawk's site,' and it's donation-supported, not an advertising site.

It's also not some place for 'Official Pagan Theology' and it's *again* not something you can pick and choose what you'd like to claim is representative of Pagans or what the circle at the Air Force Academy is for.

Wild Hunt isn't Starhawk's site, either. Starhawk's site has her own name on it. :)

Frankly, these two seem to show that maybe religious freedom for all is kind of *important?* We've got people spreading paranoia about us *all the time,* and, frankly, a lot of pretty organized hatchet-jobs directed against us. It's less funny in person when someone with ...trouble discerning reality... Believes them.

Available at http://www.witchvox.com. online shopping site:(and recommended by Starhawk)

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I'm afraid I have to go in the other direction. Instead of allowing pagans and whomsoever to have religious places paid for and supported by the taxpayer - in an effort to prevent the christianists from stopping everybody else - I'm more interested in the idea of removing all religious support by the taxpayers.

This means no christians, no pagans, no muslims, no pastafarians etc. You can worship or commune with or whatever it is you do with your god or gods on your own time, on your own dime.

"Pulling the wool over the "Mastermind" is Impossible!"

Nor necessary, considering the wool content present in the woven words. Now, bringing this back to the Air Force, it might be of interest to them, simply to find a mode of instantaneous transport from a hill in Colorado to a courtroom in California.

Pagans are by no means the only spiritual groups not to be exercised about Sodomy, a Biblical concept if I ever heard one -- although the Canadian government does have an answer to the long-asked question of what they did in Gomorrah. Again apropos of military factors and going back to Sodom, there was a letter to the editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, on April 1 if I remember correctly, about "Case report of extreme dehydration and hypernatremia in a young woman of Mediterranean origins," later identified as Mrs. Lot, and going to show one must take seriously the protective rules for fighting on a WMD battlefield.

OK. JJ. No one has 'cursed' you. Never mind any judges. You need to calm down, here.

And, while I'm at it, if I can chime in here, too: (Hi, Thomas. :) )

""In response to the polite question of Thomas Paul Moses Baum, "Do you really think that all of creation or whatever you wish to call reality is just an "accident"?""

Inasmuch as we're talking about *Paganism,* it's important to remember that Paganism, while we have many myths of 'Creation' and in general *love* science and related cosmology, we actually typically *don't* believe that some authority over daily life or even the 'fate of one's soul' *depends* on 'knowing' the origins of the Universe.

While, certainly, the arguments-from-My-God-Is-The-Creator-and-Creators-*Own*-You of many *monotheists* *against* our rights and views can be refuted with science and logic, this doesn't mean that *our* faith is based on these kinds of claims. We actually tend to start where we are and look on these things with appropriate wonderment and discernment.

New scientific facts or conclusions about human or the universe's origins therefore just don't tend to provoke the same kinds of religious crises or battles-against-science from us.

Neither does 'God' have to be defined in the traditional terms and conditions of the eternal atheists-v-monotheists debate. Those terms and conditions and definitions and 'givens' tend to be just binary processing of Christian claims about 'God' (whether 'he' exists or not) in the first place.

Anyway, sorry to throw so many posts up at once, here:

JJ/'Mastermind.' I can see how your own 'church's experiences as a prison religion suddenly mean Pagans aren't the bad guys to you for once, but actually...

""So, Besides pointing to the JUDGEships in charge of recognizing Pagan religion in Prisons and outside by proving that ALEXANDER THE GREAT was the {Pagans] Son Of Man; and that Jeshua as son of man was in conflict as 2nd in line that ""

While certainly there should be religious freedom in prisons, no, Paganism doesn't consider Alexander to be our 'Jesus' or anything like that, as amusing as it may be under the circumstances of our national debate, that the 'greatest general in history' was queer and Pagan.

He's not, however, considered to be an exemplar of modern Pagan values. Nor actually in some way trying to supplant Jesus or something. So we're clear.

(cont' from above)

As for the prison system, yes, particularly a lot of privatized prisons and profitable 'faith-based' programs from under Bush in particular are pretty explicitly dominated by Evangelical Christians who would like the whole *nation* to only recognize Abrahamic monotheist religions as 'real.'

Frankly, for Pagans, the situation's pretty unique in that it's not actually a whole lot of Pagans committing crimes and then going to jail knowing a whole lot about Paganism: the big issue is that there are a lot of people in there who were arrested as Christians or in the midst of some kind of related spiritual *crisis* who simply aren't allowed to have any kind of guidance, (except in some situations from some pretty racist dudes with 'Aryan Nations' ideology that *claims* to be 'Pagan,' (they would probably say 'Heathen' if they knew what they were talking about *anyway,* and I know *lots* of Heathen clergy who'd like to get in there and see if they can be set right on some of the *nonsense* that ends up being cooked up in there. The Christians in charge would rather say, "See, this racism really *is* Paganism! We must keep it out," ...but all they're really doing is keeping the real stuff out and manufacturing villains. The racist stuff depends on young men feeling like they *have* no heritage, to keep them angry and hateful. Push the 'warrior' image and make sure there doesn't seem to be anything to life but aggression. A lot of Heathen clergy would like to get in there and teach that this is *not* all there is. )

For other Pagans, the situation is more about people being called to the Old Ways (often after Christianity seems to have somehow failed to keep them from committing crimes) ...and getting no support. Not being able to know about what they're seeking. We hear about some silly things like prisoners thinking you actually need a dagger to pray, rather than having a priestess tell them 'You're in *jail,* you don't get a dagger, never mind need one. Could be this experience is one where you need to focus on something differently.'

But we can't get *in.* You bet your bippy it'll be claimed to be a reflection on all of us if something crazy gets cooked up in there, though.

In response to the polite question of Thomas Paul Moses Baum, "Do you really think that all of creation or whatever you wish to call reality is just an "accident"?"

Sir, you really ask two questions. One is about creation, and one is about the continuing relation between humanity and an interactive deity.

I do not have the arrogance, or the training in current cosmology, to speak intelligently about the first physical creation -- in cosmological terms, the singularity that preceded the "Big Bang". Sometimes, I'm reminded of the response attributed to Augustine of Hippo when he was asked what the deity was doing before creating the Heaven and the Earth:

"Devising a Hell for those who would have the audacity to ask such questions."

I don't have a problem with what Jefferson and others called the "watchmaker god", who created, and then stepped aside. A much more subtle theory, which I don't dismiss out of hand, comes from Pierre Teilhard du Chardin, SJ. His concept was drawn from the Genesis idea of God making man in his own image, but phrasing it in evolutionary terms: the first living cells were pre-Edenic and at his "alpha point". He postulated that God intended Man to evolve to an "Omega Point", at which time he would truly be godlike.

Now, to answer the second part, yes, I do consider the development of the world essentially random, accidental or man-driven. I have had no personal experience of a conscious and personal deity, although I certainly have had experience of spirituality shared with living beings, and perhaps the Earth itself. I apply Occam's Razor: if an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity wanted my communications, why should she make them so obscure? Why should such a powerful being want prayer and punish if it doesn't get it? I can, however, experience unconditional love from my cat, so maybe I can more easily believe in Bastet than an Abrahamic deity.

Meanwhile, until God suggests we do lunch and have a chat, I intend to be responsible for my actions and lead the most ethical life I can.

Rather than ritualized prayer, I see transcendental communication in service to others, being true to myself, and pursuing truth. In the laboratory, in the hospital treatment room, and at my easel, I feel very close to what Maslow called self-actualization, and others, such as Rudolf Otto, might call a experience of the holy. Victor Frankl called it Man's Search for Meaning, and survived Auschwitz with it. For me, that doesn't need to happen in structured religion. In my UU congregation, we facilitate one another's individual search for truth and right action, as well as mutual caring.

Yeal:

""Recommended by Starhawk:

"WitchVox""

Well, *that* information's a bit out of date, at least if you're interested in trying to find a 'reference' or necessarily understand your neighbors from the home-page.

Still a good site, and with good people running it. I still check the news feed out pretty much daily: the only thing for those not familiar with Paganism to take as a caveat:

In a time where everyone's got their own blogs and stuff, the articles on the home page have taken on the character of a general soap-box. This means minority views and, err, 'interesting theories' and a lot of newbies' contributions really tend to predominate.

The Pagan community as a whole *values* this kind of thing, but it may not shed much light on what the baseline consensus may be, if you go looking for some easy notion of 'what Pagans are all about.'

Just so you're aware: that front page tends to be biased toward what may be *novel* to us. (Sometimes I think if I see one more newbie-written article saying, 'Pagans don't respect men cause they worship the Great Mother! I read it on the Internet!' I may yark. It's like, ....meet some people, kids. :) )

Should put paid to any notions we're a conspiracy out to take over the world, though. :)

I do often reflect that anyone trying to figure us out from that home page might find themselves quite bewildered, though.

""Oh, brevity, where art thou? Must other pagans be so verbose? Pithy doesn't work?

""Keep it simple and short, so maybe the Southern Baptists can understand and retain the message, however brief and briefly.

clsvail ""

Well, we do try. Certainly, I tend to be among the verbose ones: part of the problem here is that is with so many things relating to reason and religions people don't know of, or in fact are actively trying to demonize or obfuscate,

Well, it's very easy to be brief when trying to *confuse* the truth, or 'label' someone. Obviously, Paganism is not 'simple' from the point of view of someone else's adversarial preconceptions.

For those who actually care to understand, it often means we have to go on back into the construction of someone *else's* misconceptions.

Of course, it's all very simple and living and spiritual to *us,* but to say, a Christian, they'll be, "But... Religion is about a book of laws and authority figures and arguments from 'revealed texts! You aren't religion! You must be... Really in it because we believe 'sin' is a 'fun and tempting and empty thing that everyone would want to do indiscriminately and constantly unless they were scared out of it!"

Our detractors can refer to whole complexes of thought like that with some facile little reference, and claim to 'define' us. Just like when Christians pray for terrible things to happen to some city, most Pagans know just what we're saying when we say, "I'm just gonna go stand over here while you get the return on that, preacher," or... Wince and facepalm. Most familiar with Wicca will know you're referring to everything we may have learned about the Threefold Law without saying even a word. :)

So, sometimes brevity isn't what's called for. Not that it doesn't have its place.

We're in a somewhat unusual position as a minority religion in this scenario. Many of us know how to 'speak christian.' As well as our local vernaculars. That doesn't happen too often.

Recommended by Starhawk:

"WitchVox

The Witches' Voice is an incredible user-posted network dedicated to sharing news and information about Witches and Witchcraft. Everything from articles to want ads, plus listings events and classes in hundreds of cities.

See http://www.witchvox.com.

Hey, HCBerkowitz. :)

""APaganplace, apropos Athena, are you aware that the U.S. Army Intelligence branch insignia is a head of Athena, and the term is widely used (e.g., Athena Information Architecture)? :-) ""

I've seen it, actually. She does have a long history as a symbol, not placed there as 'religious expression' in terms of who chose them, but I do hope Her spirit's honored there, anyway. :)

""Yes, it would be great should this become a place of communication.""

It's a little hard when we spend so much time dealing with people who see anything by members of other religions and start attacking those religions rather than discussing the topic. These are people who really want to see everything America stands for taken away. We Pagans are just someone they want to use for bogeymen and want to keep our real selves out of sight where they can claim we're monsters or whatever.

""Following up on magic vs. stick, one of the freedoms of religion is the freedom to have your own idiots. I fondly remember one rather demented would-be Pagan Pope telling me that he was going to cast a fireball on me, getting his spirituality confused with his Dungeons & Dragons.""

Heheh. Fireballs. What would you say, There certainly *are* plenty of flakes out there claiming their lunacy is Pagan (The 'Pagan Pope' probably should have been your first clue about that kid or whoever. :) There are some *idiots* in Paganism, far more who simply don't know the first *thing* about Paganism. Mr. Wizard there would clearly fall in the latter category, even if he *could* throw fireballs. :) )

The fact is, a lot of our attackers, and would-be 'debunkers' of darn near anything tend to *claim* we believe in *their* kinda D&D/television view of what magic is *supposed* to be, use that for a 'straw man and claim we *are* those flakes.

In terms of *religious* matters, one of the most important things to understand about a Pagan/Wiccan view of *magic* is that it's first and foremost about 'perfecting intent.' The whole magical thing (though actually I've seen far more than my share of pretty spectacular stuff, ...I have my own set of funny stories about would be witch-*hunters,* in fact,) is mostly about *learning to treat the experience of the world and your own consciousness as things which actually interact and interpermeate, rather than being viewed as some kind of mechanistic thing to be 'judged' from outside.

It teaches *ethics of consciousness,* not throwing D&D spells around.

What the martial arts call 'chi' certainly works, though. (We really try not to throw people on their kiesters just for being idiots, though. ;) *muffled laugh.* :) Ahem. :) )

misterbumbles

You wrote, "Most people, lacking a classical education or any sort of education at all, will embrace the "Jesus" version of the world because they culturally were born into by accident."

Do you really think that all of creation or whatever you wish to call reality is just an "accident"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Along with MEMBER8, I would like to recommend taking a look at the Mormon religion. But when you do, go to mormon.org or www.lds.org. MEMBER8 appears to be a rather unreliable source of information.

Certainly, it makes more sense to learn about Wicca from a Wiccan than a detractor.

You can join Starhawk's group at www.reclaim.org

"Reclaiming is a community of women and men working to unify spirit and politics. Our vision is rooted in the religion and magic of the Goddess, the Immanent Life Force.

We see our work as teaching and making magic; the art of empowering ourselves and each other. In our classes, workshops, and public rituals, we train our voices, bodies, energy, intuition, and minds.

We use the skills we learn to deepen our strength, both as individuals and as community, to voice our concerns about the world in which we live, and bring to birth a vision of a new culture."

From Wikipedia- an update on Starhawk's religion:

"Wicca (pronounced [ˈwɪkə]) is a Neopagan religion and a form of modern witchcraft. It is often referred to as Witchcraft or the Craft[1] by its adherents, who are known as Wiccans or Witches. Its disputed origins lie in England in the early 20th century,[2] though it was first popularised during the 1950s by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, who at the time called it the "witch cult" and "witchcraft", and its adherents "the Wica".[3] From the 1960s the name of the religion was normalised to "Wicca".[4]

Wicca is typically a duotheistic religion, worshipping a Goddess and a God, who are traditionally viewed as the Triple Goddess and Horned God. These two deities are often viewed as being facets of a greater pantheistic Godhead, and as manifesting themselves as various polytheistic deities. Other characteristics of Wicca include the ritual use of magic, a basic code of morality, and the celebration of eight seasonally based festivals.

There are various different denominations within Witchcraft, which are referred to as traditions. Some, such as Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca, follow in the initiatory lineage of Gardner; these are often collectively termed British Traditional Wicca, and many of their practitioners consider the term "Wicca" to apply only to these lineaged traditions. Others, such as Cochrane's Craft, Feri and the Dianic tradition, take primary influence from other figures and may not insist on any initiatory lineage. Some of these do not use the term "Wicca" at all, instead preferring to be referred to only as "Witchcraft", while others believe that all traditions can be considered "Wiccan".[5][6]"

APaganplace, apropos Athena, are you aware that the U.S. Army Intelligence branch insignia is a head of Athena, and the term is widely used (e.g., Athena Information Architecture)? :-)

Yes, it would be great should this become a place of communication.

Following up on magic vs. stick, one of the freedoms of religion is the freedom to have your own idiots. I fondly remember one rather demented would-be Pagan Pope telling me that he was going to cast a fireball on me, getting his spirituality confused with his Dungeons & Dragons. As he made his intricate gestures, I walked over (maybe a touch of Zen Bushido here?), grasped his arm, and spun him into the first half of a judo throw. He complained that I was interfering with his spell. By this point, I was really trying to stop laughing, but explained that I was merely helping the cosmos reflect his energies back on him, by helping his arm move in the direction he seemed to want it to go. Eventually, he had the wit to realize that I could, at any time, drop him on his head. Unfortunately, some of the Pastor's ilk may have, already, been repeatedly dropped on the head.

WestTexan2008, excellent observations. MOPP4 chemical protection and skyclad just don't go together. At its interfaith best, the military chaplaincy can be supportive and nonjudgmental. The "Four Chaplains" giving their lives to save others is much more of an ideal than Jeffress.

Oh, brevity, where art thou? Must other pagans be so verbose? Pithy doesn't work?

Last time the righteous pagan-haters, the Jehovah's Witnesses, knocked on my door, I said "No thank you, we are all pagans here." I thought it was lovely.

Keep it simple and short, so maybe the Southern Baptists can understand and retain the message, however brief and briefly.

In my opinion, the big point here is the basic freedom to believe what you want to believe.

Whether it's religion, politics, or team sports, everyone in the USA -- and eventually, we hope, the world -- should have the unquestioned right to believe as they wish, and to act as their beliefs will guide them... insofar as it will cause no harm.

So let's all support every step taken to bring down walls and people who declare "any differing worldview is intolerable".

That is simply not the American way.

Anyway, maybe we could...at some point, if anyone's interested... on an ...interfaith board like this... actually communicate between faiths rather than try and unravel apocalyptic conspiracy-fears that are supposed to pass for 'equal protectionunder the law,' here?

Perhaps some Pagans could interrupt the usual lurid imaginings, and.. 'imprecatory prayers,' and say, 'Hey. Of all people in this situation, we take our oaths seriously?'

Or something?

Excellent piece. It was an advocacy for liberty, not the supremacy of any one belief system. 5 Stars.

Good piece. You have presented a principle of liberty that I fear is not well understood by many.

Freedom of religion is key to all other freedoms. I think it was deliberately and appropriately positioned as the first item of the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights. For if one's most personal notions are subject to violated, then what other right is not exposed to abuse?

While what you believe may not resonate with what I believe, I must respect your right to determine your path according to your beliefs if I expect to freely make my way as my conscience dictates. Is that not what “all men are created equal” means? When I seek to infringe and constrict your beliefs according to my will, I assume undue authority and disrupted the equality God granted each of us in the first place. So the act is an offense against not only you but God also.

http://bwldrnss.blogspot.com/

Anyway, "Person11": As you say:

"":"So, anyway, *no,* 'Concerned Christians,' the worship space at the Air Force Academy isn't there to do 'witchcraft,'...""

""Why not? Someone else's use of their freedom of religion might include what they call 'witchcraft'.""

Yes.

"might" ...doesn't mean it *is* whenever the next atheist or Christian comes along and claims to know what *is.*

That's the *point.*

These same Christian Fundies claim that they are preventing their own Apocalypse by... Lying about the rest of the world. And loyal Americans of other religions. Claiming that this makes them better-qualified to handle very real weapons cause they imagine things about us and 'voodoo dolls' in order to say "What I made up about you is your religion! The Bible of my religion says so!"

No. Pagan worship does not involve cursing people with folk magic. Not all o us believe in 'voodoo dolls' and then generally not as though it was some 'Satanic power.'

For starters, if you *do* believe in that particular thing, it's *cursing, not worship,* and ...apart from that in reality it's usually considered pretty fluffy, if you *do* believe in it, and are sworn to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, well, Pagan morals don't say that's 'worship,' ... they say that's very like a *gun.*

I'm Pagan clergy. 'Magic' and 'Spells' as Christians and atheists imagine it, and Yeal/CCNL try to mock over it... Are for one, far less important than the fears they try to spin about Pagan people celebrating ever *were,* and for another....

It's not like some of you would imagine you'd do if you had 'magic powers.'

For one, in our terms, it's not first and foremost what leaps to your imaginations: that being a *weapon,*

And for another, to 'magical' traditions of Paganism, it *is* a weapon. If you use it as such.

"Do not do to anyone with magic what you would not do with a stick."

That's what I teach, like so many others, about this 'magic' so many are afraid of.

Frankly, it's eedjits who try to claim *we're* the ones not to be trusted with physical weapons.

We're careful with our *dollies,* actually. If we even use em.

"" You don't make any sense (Fundies?). Are you a Witch, a Wiccan, a Pagan, an Atheist What's your point?""

I dunno, How could you ever tell the religious affiliation of a regular poster named 'A Pagan Place'

(Which is, ironically-enough, the very "crux" *and* "meat" of the matter if you're saying someone should make 'sacrifices' (of others, and of liberties, and of religions) to prevent a Christian 'God' from 'damning' a free nation.... For not treating us like we want the government to enshrine someone else's ideas of 'voodoo dolls.' Which are neither ours nor Vodous, of course. :) )

""cc apaganplace:

Please be careful when directing 'Ad Hominem's at new visitors, or else you will get burned (with the stake) HERE. O.K.?""

It's not ad hominem. Since... a) It wasn't directed at you, unless you've just changed screen names again, and b) if it's not to you and you think it's ad hominem, while saying you 'don't understand,' that hardly gives you authority to say what Pagans believe about things someone else wants to demonize us for, does it?"

Yes, it's convoluted.

But that's what we're facing, not who we are or what the reality of this 'issue' that someone makes of us *praying* in a *circle of surplus boulders* ...*is.*

The reality is someone's trying to terrorize Americans if they don't *hurt my people for praying.*

Clear?

""Stick to the subject or crux/meat of the matter. No offense.""

Offense is already given. Repeatedly.

Cause we exist and tend to like to pray outdoors and not be called malefic according to bigotries if we do so.

Perspective is at question.

I'd say, who are *you?*

Cause if you can't figure out my religion, you're either not paying attention or looking for more Wikipedia entries to misconstrue.

Possibly both.

So, what do *you* say?

I found this commment interesting:

"So, anyway, *no,* 'Concerned Christians,' the worship space at the Air Force Academy isn't there to do 'witchcraft,'..."

Why not? Someone else's use of their freedom of religion might include what they call 'witchcraft'.

" not like some kind of place for ''voodoo dolls' as people who defame Vodou claim Voudou is about."

I assume that's not what they do either, but if someone did want to make those, it wouldn't be the Christian's or another religion's right or business to disrupt the activity.

"It's the Fundies screaming that a circle of rocks is *idolatry* ... and they're the only ones who ever brought an 'idol' there."

If someone wants to be an 'idolator' that is their RIGHT under Freedom of Religion No one is given protection from never feeling offended by someone else's beliefs (or lack thereof).

For those who think the pagan religion is wacky, take a look at the mormon religion. Modern DNA science disproves the tale spun by the illiterate, convicted fraudster of Palmyra, NY. And catholicism...are we truly supposed to believe that a factory-fresh wafer and a shot of Mogen-David REALLY turns to actual flesh and blood in our stomachs? Gimme a break.

"Shaky theological ground?" Since when did theology scrape and crawl its way up to being on shaky ground? Theology is the study of superstition...silly stuff men made up to dominate other men and all women. To give it the credit of being on any ground at all, shaky or otherwise, is far too generous. Modern religion is nothing more than warmed over mythology. Hooey.

Anyway. If we could have something sensible and substantive, here? People of Earth religions exist, we serve in the military with honor and sense and some kind of expectation that the below madness is not used by any random Christian or atheist to try to claim we're not crazy enough to be part of the Air Force.

Anyone?

Hi, "Master-mind:"

"""I suggest that the California Prison-Rights Case should introduce to the Judge or such Decision-makers Panel that "Alexander the great" was the "SON Of MAN", like Jeshua was the son of man too. And that Christians stole the Pagans faith; or at-least borrowed some aspects of such noble worship.""

Actually, I think Christian Fundies are going to have to get around to explaining how they can claim people who say no such thing about anyone are supposed to be mocked for stealing something from people claiming the 'Son Of Man' is the only person ever *not* a son of man... by not claiming anyone is the 'son of man?'

Never did figure out what you guys were on about with that one, never mind having basis to mock anyone else's *religion* about what you made-up-in-the-first-place-in-your-own.

This is like Christians:

"Jesus is the Son of Man! You claim something else is the Son Of Man!"

"I thought you said Jesus was *not* the son of any man, and that's why he was supposed to be the 'only truth?' Besides, he was probably the son of Joseph, at least literally, if there's any literaly to be had,"

"Heretic! How can you say the Son of Man is a son of ...Man! Who do you got that's a son of man without being a son of man! You're obviously trying to confuse me with these claims I made up you saying in the first place!"

""Oh, and there was also a raid by the federal Government back in 2007 where they confiscated radical Islamic materials and left them with bear-bone religious stuff. So you probably know more about this then me. Good luck in your Legal issues.

mastermind1""

I don't think Muslims use bear bones in any particular way. Perhaps you were thinking of... Someone who likes bears? :)

btw, theres a case or some cases involving a prison made Religion or gang involving some Cons.

Curiously, I know there are about millions of folks incarcerated now, but how many Pagans are there in the Prison system, in the Military and out-side in Americas 304 Million Population?

Posted by: mastermind1

This is, basically the Fundie case for deciding only extremely-superstitious Fundies get to decide who has free exercise of religion in America:

"Oh, I was able to selectively-quote what someone said about 'all you people not me' on Wikipedia! *I* 'know what you're up to! Give me the bombs!"

Err.

Know.

If you want to talk about *reality* and *people,* and *policy* and Gods-forbid-even *spirituality,* Yeal/CCNL/others...

Let us know when you're even willing to take this *seriously.*

Anyway, this noise if probably just to bury the *religion* of all this by saying, 'Aha! You know what folk magic is, that means you are in your deep and sacred religion, the nearest Wikipedia thing I could take out of context!"

Actually, when Pagans, never mind all people of Earth religions, get together, that kind of stuff is *not* the focus of our worship.

Or an element of it, even.

What you try to defame us as is.... Mail order ads proclaiming the Wiccan 'mystic secrets of how to violate everything Wiccans or Lakota or Norse or, I dunno, Who knows what the Unitarians are getting Up To These Days...! stand for! You believe in jealous conjurations of demons by someone else, don't you! Curse people and blame it on another culture! Only 19.95!"

This is not what Pagan servicepeople are doing there, no.

So, anyway, *no,* 'Concerned Christians,' the worship space at the Air Force Academy isn't there to do 'witchcraft,'...

It's a shared space for *Earth religions:* It's a gathering and worship space, not like some kind of place for ''voodoo dolls' as people who defame Vodou claim Voudou is about.

It's like when Christians and the media say, like they have any clue, "You worship witchcraft." I'm like, How in the Mother's name do you imagine *that's* supposed to work?

It's the Fundies screaming that a circle of rocks is *idolatry* ... and they're the only ones who ever brought an 'idol' there.

What?

""Bottom Line:
Religious Superstition and Ignorance.
Mankind's Bane!

lufrank1 ""

Bottom? Line?

Baneful is as baneful does.

Banes are poisons. Not all herbs are poisons.

And, yes, that's what a 'poppet' is, CCNL. ...unless of course it's just a doll. Or an affectionate term for a child.

That's why I say it is *you* (and other intolerant Fundies threatening destruction if innocent people aren't persecuted and/or silenced) ...who is trying to use *real people* ...For a 'voodoo doll.'

It's you who brought it up, apparently claiming as always that if you see people as mere 'effigies' and *hurt the people* that it will bring about some magical result.

And then say *you* are the ones who must control all the nuclear weapons and more-personal armaments...

Claim, 'Destroy this 'temple' or doom will follow! Destroying this temple will hurt 'evil! We're the unsuperstitious ones here! Chemically-castrate the queers and save the world!'

Yes, "Yeal."

Poppets are pieces of folkloric 'sympathetic magic.' And that's what you're trying to treat my people as.

Right here, right now.

They aren't 'Earth Religion,' they're a folkloric means of cursing or even blessing. (Not often used that way)

It's *you* who try to 'conjure' an 'image' of 'voodoo' and say this means people should be treated badly.

Most religions have something like that. Usually consider them naughty.

"Spiritual warfare" Fundies 'conjure' these images, and if they can't use the law to hurt people with them, they 'pray for the death of the President and his family ' and say it preserves 'unit cohesion' to *divide* people by sticking crosses in other people's consecrated places talismanically 'to prevent my God from nuking us for not executing loyal American people who think 'God' doesn't 'righteously' nuke cities cause someone not straight was there, "Sodom" and then, I guess cleared 'angels of destruction' to pickle on the secondary target for unspecified reasons after that..."

The point wasn't that we *don't* understand these things, 'Concerned Christian,' but rather that we *do.*

They *aren't* our religion. Just cause we know how a 'weapon' works, doesn't mean we *think* with it.

That would seem to be *your* self-appointed 'job.'

As a matter of *fact,* I was making the *case* that if you're gonna hand someone the keys to a missile battery, nuke, or Predator drone... Actually maybe you *want* someone there who understands the differences and similarities. And isn't gonna get spooked at 'voodoo dolls.'

Bottom Line:
Religious Superstition and Ignorance.
Mankind's Bane!

For those interested in another meaning of a "poppet": (better known as a special valve)

"Folk magic

In folk-magic and witchcraft, a poppet is a doll made to represent a person, for casting spells on that person. These dolls may be fashioned from such materials as a carved root, grain or corn shafts, a fruit, paper, wax, a potato, clay, branches, or cloth stuffed with herbs. The intention is that whatever actions are performed upon the effigy will be transferred to the subject based in sympathetic magic. It was from these European dolls that the myth of Voodoo dolls arose.[2] Poppets are also used as kitchen witch figures.
"

That bit of rant done about the bigotry, I hope it won't distract too much to talk a bit about something more thoughtful:

Aperson:
""People have been mentioning that the numbers of people identifying themselves as "pagan" is growing, but the strength of large numbers should not be required to defend a group's legal rights of worship.""

Shouldn't be, still *is.* Fast. It's long been a real challenge for those of us who are supposed to be the experienced ones: we've been expanding in numbers on geometric scales since *I* discovered I wasn't the last Pagan in the world decades ago: the 'Earth Religions' are not a dogma which overworked clergy can just hand you a book and say, "Want to 'convert?' Obey this and we'll get back to you at some point."

Fairly conservative estimates suggest we're over a million, just in America, excluding people who are all 'New Age' or something.

That's a lot of Americans.

Real Americans, here now.

It's not actually part of our belief that we need to make everyone Pagans before they die, (Or I guess, make everyone die before they fail to become Pagans, ....still don't know what Christian Fundies are on about that way) ...Actually, since we don't believe in 'last eternal judgments on this one life or you're doomed forever and ever and ever,' ...we do always have a long view in mind.

If our Christian neighbors can prosper another however many centuries by *not* destroying the land and people and future and thinking forcing 'belief' on others somehow makes up for that any more... Great. Excellent.

If we wished Christians, or the world, or anyone ill, frankly, all we'd ever have had to do lately is shut up.

But that's not what that is. I'm happy that many among Christianity are trying to see the world in terms of something alive and with a future again.

I don't *fear* the 'death of my religion,' cause, ... They already killed it. And here we are, reborn as ever.

Hopefully a little wiser, hopefully a little kinder, and in this case, hopefully with a little resident expertise in how *not* to have proud nationalisms end in pogroms, hysteria, and certain issues with cholera and inbreeding that most 'apocalypses' tend to leave out.

""A little note: Plurality of viewpoints, gods, and paths are some of paganism's hallmarks. (I don't think Avatar as relevant to much of anything other than as compared to other popular movies, nor see a "Goddess" as only a metaphor.) ""

I think to a Pagan point of view, the little "this is physical" device of plugging your hair into the planetary Mother ....is just a dramatic device.

Same spirit. Same lesson, same story. For many of us, and for many others, we didn't come with a biological USB cord, but, but it's not for us that the lack of anything so 'explainable' makes it any less 'real.'

It's a story. We can certainly relate. :)

That's the cognitive dissonance that hurts my brain.

People who claim that their version of Liberty is one that is somehow supported by punishing their countrymen who just so happen to not think like them are so often the ones that are willing to nuke someone else in the name of 'national defense'.

And, so anyway, Yeal.

Fundies.

"Voodoo dolls?" That's neither us nor Vodou.

Who some will treat as "voodoo dolls" with talk like that is not people of the Goddess, not people of Earth religions, not 'gays' or mystics or 'libruls' or anyone you *keep thinking sticking some hatpins in will save you from something* are.

You're trying to use *us* for your "voodoo dolls" ...thinking that if you hurt *us* ...some 'conflict will go away.'

And if you can't handle even *thinking* about a poppet, hands off our Air Force.

I mean, you know, I've said it before, but it's these *Apocalyptic Fundies who worship some notion that 'God' nukes cities over *slim allegations about sex* who probably don't belong anywhere near these weapons they seem so *indecently-attracted to.*

People who love the Earth, love different people, actually *treasure* our Liberty rather than seeing Her as a 'technicality' to argue and bully around.... People who may even *actually have Gods and Goddesses who teach about the conduct of war and the responsible exercise of *power* and value *thought and strategy and courage and honor, instead of thinking whatever you do must be these things as long as everyone's afraid of massive destruction and eternal damnation cause some of us are afraid of their own penises?*

Frankly, I'd take Lugh of the Long Spear in command of these things, over a would- be 'Horseman of the Apocalypse' with massive sexual insecurity and a fear for his own soul in command *any day.*

Frankly, I'd rather have someone favored of Athena deploying air support and strategic ...nukes, over someone who thinks the Universe figures sexual tabooes and appeasing a jealous God are a good rationale for incinerating cities.

Never mind compromising Liberty and honor among one's comrades.

These are people who will on much more mundane and civilian scales, say, "I only hurt you cause I love you, you degenerate, you make me do this."

Who think the world is doomed and actually tend to salivate over the suffering they imagine is 'righteous.'

They have an indecent attraction to those weapons, and a frightening way of denying what they demand.

All they know is 'power to destroy' and everything, and everyone 'looks like a nail.'

I'll take Athena.

""Very well written article by Starhawk. Finally, some common sense.""

Yeah, Mokey. Lady knows how these people expect to protect the nation if they're worried more about air-strikes from their *God* (through avowed enemies of America no less,) ...and the way to protect us via *the Air Force* is of course to oppress Pagan American compatriots and comrades,

While stroking nuclear missiles and saying, "If anything somehow gets through our air defense and 'smites' cities, it's cause of not oppressing your liberty enough over 'your immorality!' Look at 9/11! What do I look like, Strategic Air Command?"

My answer to Kiler616 ( Feb 11, 8:52 pm) is NO, because you don't go by the Golden Rule, also called The Ethic of Reciprocity.

Hey PP..

I'm sure you've noticed the similarities-the yelling about 'voodoo dolls' and incessant spamming and utter vitriol..
sound familiar?

CCNL's got a new handle. I think he got banned from too many threads and is back again.

Same old arguments for the sake of arguing, sound and fury- signifying nothing, as always.

Very well written article by Starhawk. Finally, some common sense.

I'm kind of liking the idea of 'vim' right now.

I think 'vim' is exactly what our nation could use right now.

Perhaps it is time to *dispel* the forces of "WTF is wrong with you" and raise the Cone Of Vim.

:)

We could make a little milspec label for it:

Vicarious Incineration Mollifier: (VIM) One (One) Circular.

Component system: parts list:

Perfect Love And Perfect Trust: provisional. Circular. Pursuant to section one article one: Bill of Rights, see UCMJ.

Power Source: Decentralized, unitary, modular, regenerative: ACTIVATION PRIOR TO VERIFICATION OF POSITIVE GROUNDING NOT RECOMMENDED.

Ok, I could have some fun with that.

Yeal:

"Once again:

When you get done worshiping and dancing at the new AF Academy's pagan temple, continue your worshiping and dancing at the Garden of the Gods Park, a Registered National Natural Landmark in Colorado Springs.

And pagans love the earth and celebrate Earth Day with vim and vigor.""

*gasp!* Ooooh, *noooo... * Not 'vim and vigor' Run! Everybody run!

They hate us for our 'vim.' :)

It's not really a *temple* per se, it's some extra boulders that had to be moved anyway, arranged in a circle to gather among, with a propane heater in the middle.

What are you saying, an Earth Day celebration elsewhere means 'The Pagans have enough, or something, why should they have the right to freely assemble and have free exercise of religion by (happily) sharing a bunch of rocks we'd have had to cart away anyway with all other Earth religions... while defending my right to be an idiot about all other religions but mine!'

""If only voodoo dolls could end conflicts!!!""

Says someone while Fundamentalist Christians put big crosses in someone else's sacred space to intimidate them and do whatever 'spiritual war' thing is in fashion this week, between praying for the President and his family to die horribly and then proclaiming 'victory' by saying they supernaturally-killed John Murtha?

No. Such things do not end conflicts. Even if you just imagine them about Vodou people, who are not who you are attacking.

Frankly, if you're worried about "voodoo dolls" ...the logic of wanting only apocalyptic Fundies who pray for their Commander in Chief to *die* to be in charge of *the nuclear arsenal...*

Well, that 'logic' kind of escapes me.

Thank you Starhawk for speaking up about your beliefs.
If someone's religion makes insulting other religions a very important part of their belief systems - that's fine for them. I think of that as a generally offensive waste of time and energy, but people are entitled to their freedom. However, the Constitution and US laws are meant to upheld the rights of people to have different beliefs.
Even when religions share love for the same monotheist deity there's tensions - Muslims, Christians, and Jews typically think they worship the same g-d, yet there's a history of violence. This "Freedom of Religion" is not just for faiths that agree with each other. When I was Catholic years ago, I heard from people of other Christian religious denominations how I was going to hell and heard that unbaptised children were ground up to make the Communion wafers. Most educated people don't believe that - bigotry usually takes the form of being ridiculous. But because of the huge number of Catholics, the actions and beliefs of a few bigots did not mean Catholicism was a cause for risk of legal problems or discrimination, and sometimes these are issues given to more minority religions.
People have been mentioning that the numbers of people identifying themselves as "pagan" is growing, but the strength of large numbers should not be required to defend a group's legal rights of worship.
A little note: Plurality of viewpoints, gods, and paths are some of paganism's hallmarks. (I don't think Avatar as relevant to much of anything other than as compared to other popular movies, nor see a "Goddess" as only a metaphor.)

Thank you again for a provoking essay, Starhawk.

OK, let me get some snark out of the way, here:

Freemarketer:

""Christians hold little in the way of absolute truth to believe in.

Thank you for this article""

Aren't you glad of the 'Free market' and 'Under God Nation' where everyone can decide what to tell everyone else about what you believe?

It's just so 'Truthey.'

Excellent essay!

But he doesn't mention agnatheists,

the fastest-growing faith (in reason)

group in the US.

'Spirits do not have biological gender.'

I'm pretty sure mine does, but I only speak for myself.

Once again:

When you get done worshiping and dancing at the new AF Academy's pagan temple, continue your worshiping and dancing at the Garden of the Gods Park, a Registered National Natural Landmark in Colorado Springs.

And pagans love the earth and celebrate Earth Day with vim and vigor.

"Earth Day at the Garden of the Gods Visitor & Nature Center will be celebrated in April this year. The festivities begin at 9:00 a.m. and continue until 3:00 p.m. Earth Day activities and programs are free and open to the public. Some of the activities to enjoy include Native American Dancer Performances, live birds of prey from Pueblo's Greenway Nature Center, children's craft activities, and nature walks."

Travel time to other sites from the Garden of the Gods Visitor Center:

Air Force Academy, 20 minutes

Cripple Creek for some gambling (no Baptists allowed), 50 minutes

Olympic Training Center, 15 minutes

www.gardenofgods.com/

If only voodoo dolls could end conflicts!!!

The Hebrew God, when asked, gave the name "I AM". God never gives a gendered self-reference. God created humans "in our image". The Christian sense of God's essence is "Love". What else, really, needs to be said? "I AM LOVE", God, or any diety worth considering, says. What then is the essence of any "religion" for those of us who chose to believe is such, or of "ir-religion" for those who chose to not believe in such? It is clear that a core essence of high order animals, possibly epitomized in humans, is a core ability to "love". It is likely that most of the Founding Fathers did indeed consider freedom of religion to be limited to Christians and probably Jews. But we know that Jefferson and Franklin, being the most ir-religious, likely thought more broadly of this. And in any event, the Constitution is wonderfully vague and does not necessarily fix the mindset of its writers in time. It's words are indeed in most respects fit for any time (and place for that matter). That includes obviously today, with our current mindset.

Religious pluralism in the military is much more complex than most people truly understand. Some thoughts:

Religious practice in the military is often a balance or tension between ‘good order and discipline’ on the one hand and ‘first amendment rights’ on the other. Example: Pagans have the right to worship, but to do so ‘sky-clad’ (naked) would compromise unit discipline – a compromise can be reached.

Worship can be conducted in a formal or ad-hoc manner; however, to have a formal worship, there needs to be a chaplain or authorized lay person to lead the service. This chaplain or lay person must be recognized and licensed by an ‘endorsing agent’ – somebody or a group who can officially speak for the denomination and say that this leader is doing their denominational things ‘correctly.’ One of the problems with paganism is that their beliefs are very eclectic; thus no one person or group speaks for the entire body; thus no endorsing agent – no chaplains or lay leaders. Also, many pagans are ‘sole practitioners in that they worship alone without the guidance of a religious leader.

Pagan worship has been a feature of military worship, particularly among female members, for many years. The post commander of Ft. Hood had set aside an area for Pagans back in the early 1990’s and the Marine Corps went to great lengths to allow Pagan/Wiccan worship at boot camp and beyond. Drill instructors received several hours of training in religious pluralism, including paganism. Chaplains receive training in accommodating all worship, including Pagan.

It is actually much more complex than this, but space prevents a comprehensive treatment of the topic.

Ah, a common sense approach to practicing religious beliefs. I agree with Starhawk that when Pagans are allowed at the table, then everyone benefits. Including this atheist. Too often we label something without taking time to understand it which for the most part is alright. I don't have time to study all the different religions which I won't be joining anyway. I don't want to debate my atheism either. Accept each one for what they bring to the world and get on with life! We have more in common than that which seemingly divides us. There are too many good things in life to enjoy without the divisive nature of religious one-ups-manship dragging us down. Live long and prosper!

the author writes:
"Pagans have a wide variety of beliefs and traditions, but we share in common a perspective that Goddess/God/Spirit goes beyond our limited human conceptions, that no one name or image or text or conception is big enough to define and contain Her/Him/That."

I find it somewhat odd that none here except the author tend to care what the God of Christ says about himself and us...that would be his Word in the Bible, and his intended relationship with his created beings. At least those who care what he says should speak up for their own beliefs in his Word. That would be the 10 Commandments that he "is the one God, and that he sent his son for believers to hold that truth forever." Otherwise, Christians hold little in the way of absolute truth to believe in.

Thank you for this article and consideration for absolute truth in his Word.

As someone else commented, spirits have no gender. I will say, though, that although it would be grammatically correct, something grates about referring to God as "it".

what are the rights that you are fighting for...
you forgot to mention them in your article...

Well put.

I never knew Jeffress or The First Baptist Church of Dallas before, but after reading his Fred Phelps ideas of Christianity, he did indeed become an "anathema to my version of God" Unlike him, however, I think my "anathema" should have the right to practice his religion and to free speech just as we should to counter his ignorance.

The FOX NEWS Huckabee Christian sect is always so ready to denounce the religions and lifestyles of others as if their God has deputized them to poke their noses in others' business to help Him judge and condemn. Like the majority of Muslims who remain silent in condemning their murderous terrorists, the majority of Christians remain silent regarding the outrageous hatred spewed by Jeffress and Phelps.

Starhawk has written a wonderful support for freedom of religion. Our country is a place for all, not just the christians. My own path may not be my neighbor's path, but that does not mean he is not entitled to his belief. The Air Force has long been known to be a hotbed of Christianity -- fine for the christians, but not so fine for others. It is high time for the military to either support all faiths, or support no faiths at all. "All men are created equal" was not just a throwaway line in the Declaration of Independence.

It was hard getting population to grow in spite of famines and droughts, harsh climates and wild animals, epidemics and diseases, and very annoying of all, primitive but constant warfare.

I'm constructing a circle of stones, approximately 360 feet in diameter. The stones, which I'll be moving without the aide of hydraulic machines weigh sometimes as much as 2 tons. Anyone want to help?

Bravo. A beautiful op-ed. This is what freedom of religion is all about!

i'm a nihilist barbarian type who borders on cannibalism and likes to eat religious people because of the purity(or impurity) of the meat!...are my rights protected?.....i've got my eyes on this overweight nurse at work tonight who thinks Jesus is going to show up riding a horse down from heaven....talk about pure...and meaty too....can i start the fire...i love outdoor cookouts!

The Baptist pastor sees (or feigns seeing) everything in simple cookie cutter terms to match the general intellectual simplicity of his "flock" (an apt title).

Most people, lacking a classical education or any sort of education at all, will embrace the "Jesus" version of the world because they culturally were born into by accident.

I commend the AFA for having the courage to do this, smack in the middle of "godland" Colorado. Of course, the moral majority can't say too much in light of the behavior of their icons, like Ted Haggard.

Both accurately and beautifully stated, as always.