Pagans as Patriots: Freedom vs. Prejudice

I am an atheist. I consider myself a man of honour, moral and decency. When I read comments like "those who refuse to believe in an afterlife should be blown up" reinforces my adherence to atheism, and my utter comtempt for the so-called religions of the world. Given the chance to do it all over again, I am certain the organized religions would not miss an opportunity to go back to "witch and heretic burning" with wild abandon. This very form of thinking that one's beliefs are the only correct ones and that everybody else lives "in error" is absolutely ridiculous, pathetic and ludicrous. Nobody has ever gone to war and committed atrocities in the name of Lucifer or whatever name it is that religion use to instill fear and obedience in its followers. Get people to believe in absurdities and you will have them commit atrocities (Voltaire). So keep your religious nonsense out of my life and let others believe whatever they want without feeling obligated to condemn and threatened them with either eternal fire (yeah, right, so much for your "loving god") or have them blown up just because they have freely chosen a different way to dignify their lives, instead of letting brain-washing and conditionning (also know as faith to you religious folks) dictate their minds and every emotions. Let common-sense and acceptance prevail. Pagan, Wiccan, whatever, just enjoy your freely chosen path.

I'll note that the experience E. Robbins describes here is actually quite typical (Actually, I referred to it when we were being accused of 'profiteering' by expecting to be treated as other religions. As taxpayers, we subsidize big and wealthy Christian churches, but try and get tax-exempt status for our humbler organizations and worship spaces, you'd think we were suddenly bankrupting the government or something.

This post has been fascinating. I am impressed with the efforts of some here to adequate "explain" Paganism, and won't try to further those explanations. I have a few points to add to the mix. My experience is as a co-leader of the group, Immanent Grove, that was mentioned in the original article.

Do we enjoy the same tax-exempt status of other religions? Not often. Here in Maine, when the Grove wished to become entitled to the sales/use tax exemption, commonly available to mainstream churches, we were turned down. Several times. It took years to get there, just to make the point. We really don't purchase much, so we don't use the privilege in actual practice. Initially the official in charge stated flatly that Paganism is not a religion because his Webster's defines Pagan as "irreligious". Once we got past pointing out the error of his ways as far as finding legal definitions goes, we had to show how we met the criteria for a "regularly organized local church".
This meant, how much did we resemble that place with a pointy roof that he associates with the word, "church". Are fewer than a certain percentage of our members related to one another? Do we have a permanent structure? Do we meet for worship on a weekly basis? Do we have a religious training program for our Youth? What specifically to we consider to be our holy book? And so on. Oh, and please provide the names of all members. It was charming. In short, we had to show how much like Christianity we were, before we could be called a religion, in order to get the rights that a lunatic fringe, but Christian, church would be given without question.
The fellow who wrote an article denouncing Rita Moran, who seems to have his knickers in a knot about Pagans generally, followed up by trespassing on private property in order to take pictures of the outdoor worship circle. These were then published on the Maine Christian Civic League website in a separate article denouncing a second politically active Pagan. The photographs are of everyday Pagan things like a bench, a firepit (purchased at Target, not Beelsebub's Supply), a G-rated statue (he has a particular problem with Hecate, it seems), and the like. In the first article, he devoted particular attention to the group's efforts to raise money in order to purchase land for Pagan use. Pagans expend so much energy defending themselves against this kind of thing, that it's amazing that we find time more any charitable work at all. But we do. The person who worked out the math, so that there is fewer than one Pagan per military base, could apply that to why we don't have a charitable machine comparable to what the big religions have. In spite of these factors, there are Pagan food pantries, Pagans who volunteer at animal shelters, homeless shelters, abused women shelters, etc. A Pagan member of Interfaith Maine has been promoting the first multi-faith "Habitat for Humanity" project, and area Pagans are excited and eager to help.

I will not try to define others' experiences in Paganism, but will ask the question based on my own polytheistic version: Why does the fact that I believe in ALL deities, and that I specifically honor more than just ONE of them, make me less entitled to free exercise, to respect, to privacy, to equal treatment?
Respectfully,
E.

If you really look at it, for instance, for purposes of this debate, if you take the term Pagan and define it as you choose to try and say, 'This doesn't count as a real religion,' well, the same adversarial treatment would probably disqualify just about any dharmic tradition, most aboriginal ones unless taken solely by specific tribe, and possibly Christianity itself in some cases.

Trying to define us out of 'legitimate' existence will, in the end, serve no soldiers, who are in need of these services.

We can be descriptive, in ways that I hope serve understanding. These senses of boundaries are vague at best and not actually as important to our religion as some (usually self-serving) ideas of what is a 'real' religion would make them out to be.

Certainly, as chaplains, Neopagans are well-equipped to serve people of aboriginal traditions, ...at least we don't think 'you' are 'wrong and ignorant of the 'true message,' and all

Personally, I'm kind of used to approaching other people's Gods or ancestors (real careful, like,) and saying, 'Hi, maybe you don't know me, but there's this guy, here...'

We may not be experts on all world religions, but at least we don't see them as damned and merely conversion targets.
:)

Heck, I've even got more than a little experience helping 'book religion' people pray or otherwise get through harsh stuff without lying. :)

Actually, I think the very idea that the purpose of clergy is to tell people to obey something they may or may not have to serve some extra fear they brought to the table isn't actually where clergy can help folks, in the first place.

Why make the debate about whether our troops deserve representation, and maybe even some ministerial care from other Pagans about, "Who are you guys, anyway? Prove you have authority on my terms."

Heck, that's someone else's idea in the first place.

We're real, though.

I'd point out that I'd hesitate to call us strictly 'orthopraxic' ...our idea of praxis is pretty broad and diverse: strict orthopraxy tends to say, 'Do this thing in this way and get this result,' ...this is something a little different.

Bosumfo Kofi:

"My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice."

Err, not in the terms of what 'Earth religion' was coined to describe, as I mentioned above. (going back to catch up, I hadn't seen all of the activity here before...)

Ok.

In terms of the Pagans called Pagans who are seeking chaplains, what we're discussing is also known as Neopaganism. This might be a helpful term to keep in mind: in many senses we hearken back to what were once our own 'aboriginal' traditions' in our homelands, (yes, usually Occidental ones, at the core) but it's a modern reconstruction that has taken its own shape. It's a little hard to define because it *is* a new shape.

In the sense of Pagan chaplains, this term is not really meant to encompass every tradition that *could* be called Pagan... you won't really find us defined by some hard boundary, anyway.

Certainly, the Akom faith you describe could be called 'Earth religion' because the Earth you describe is a living, divine thing, not merely an externally-created artifice... not merely a 'thing' for people's use and domination. It's not the presence of a 'Sky god' or even Creator/creatrix that really defines 'non-Pagan' in that sense.

One might better draw the distinction between Earth religion and 'revealed religion,' or 'book religion,' ...which usually says that religion depends upon a 'revelation' of some text and requires obedience. That, for instance, Earth only exists to be transcended.

If Earth is alive and ensouled and divine in some way of Herself, that's probably 'Earth Religion' as the term's meant.

Not all 'Earth religions' are Neopagan. Or Pagan in this sense. Neopaganism has taken the shape it has in large measure because our aboriginal and other traditions were deliberately broken and obscured in history, ...you could say we've put the pieces together in a way we can all share.

In America's 'Melting pot,' particularly, Paganism has become a thing of its own. A framework, if you will, around which much has grown.

We get folks from all over, and learn from all over. There is a consistency which is hard sometimes, even for Pagans to see, but it's there. It's natural to us, even.

I actually dispute the idea that we're not 'meaningfully bonded with a sacred landscape,' however it was phrased. Actually, we are, it's just one which 'imported religions' find mundane and disconnected. We don't. :)

Just cause mine's often best represented by the maps you find at any T station in Greater Boston doesn't make it any less so. There's actually a lot of your Tam Lin/Thomas the Rhymer/countless other Faery/underworld stories (stuff from some of my ancestry) in the 'old' song 'Charlie on the MTA.' :)

Did he ever return? No he never returned. And his fate is still unlearned. :)

I mean, that's obviously not what you'll find at your average Pagan circle, but... it's meant to stress the element of modernity, as well as antiquity, in the movement.

People who see religion solely in terms of authority-from-antiquity have trouble seeing our cohesiveness: this is because much of this is relatively *new.* How we put things together is... Well, I won't say 'new,' but it's new in that it's more conscious and rapid than cultural cross-pollenation has happened in most other times.

These unifying elements embrace diversity as a strength, not a competition or series of divisions. They function in a way that's a little different: the *point* is neither to assimilate others nor to maintain some kind of isolationism.

In terms of specific beliefs, frankly, the more *different* points of view seem to observe a given thing, however they interpret it, the more likely we figure we're onto something. This is very different from the idea that 'The strongest' or 'most local' or 'most traditional' viewpoint must necessarily overwhelm all others.

To us, in fact, those claiming to have 'The One True Religion' (particularly when contradicting others) are most likely to have no idea what they're talking about on any given subject: these are in fact, the ones likely to be making 'extraordinary claims' that blind rather than inform.

We have no interest in trying to establish, define, or impose 'Paganism' as including or speaking for all 'Earth Religion' peoples, you see.

You're the guys who help keep us honest. :)

Certainly we have a lot of common cause and solidarity with all peoples who revere the Mother and see the world as alive and ensouled and all that tends to come with that.

The Pagan movement, well, it does come together around a somewhat-broken heritage, though. We have our own community, and standards, and ideas, at least as cohesive as religions like Christianity: in fact, we're about what I think you'd expect to get if a diverse population of Westerners set aside Judeo-Christian belief and made something out of what we've learned since then and what we have left.

Cause that's kind of how it happened. :)

The result's very inclusive, really, but does have its own community standards and common beliefs. Not so much orthodoxy, or even orthopraxis beyond, 'What works.' Our traditions have evolved from there, and, well, we know what's going on when we go to different circles.

If I can shift the paradigm a bit like that.

What can often catch us between ideas we're an occult conspiracy that had something to do with persecuting early Christians in Rome, and ideas we're just 'doing random stuff and calling it religion' is that the paradigm *is* a bit different.

If this helps. Definitions aren't easy cause in a way, they're not meant to be. It's process, not a packaged 'product,' anyway. :)

To my friend Bosumfo Kofi who said:

"It can also be said that many of us are settlers. African-Americans have been living on American soil for 400 hundred years. I fall into that category. I am a "settler" on American soil. My ancestors were brought here under forced circumstances. Native Americans are the caretakers of this land - they are the aboriginees of America. But you can find Afican-American settlers and European settlers who are self-described Pagans."

Christopher Responds:

That is indeed an excellent point. And certainly one can find Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, and Latinos who profess to be Pagans. In discussing what peoples are aboriginals--I am emphasizing that it does not matter where a person comes from--rather, the quality of being Aboriginal resides in whether persons and institutions have formed meaningful reciprocal spiritual beings with the landscape itself--both Christianity and Islam among European and African settlers preclude relationships with the sacred earth of the Americas--there are religions of time, not physical space. Not all Amerindians are aboriginal, either, for the same reason.

Kofi continues:

"My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice."

Christopher responds:

The serious religious study of contemporary Paganism is still in its infancy, and just as there are many disagreements over who is a "Jew" or a "Christian," there are also conflicting definitions of what it means to be a Pagan. And that is OK- it means that discussion and debate are ongoing. As a rule of thumb it helps to know that "Paganism" is really an umbrella term for a set of related religions, just as "Abrahamic" refers to a set of religions that share some common qualities, and "Dharmic" refers to another set of religions that share common qualities between them. Pagan religions share a majority of a set of qualities--just as members of a biological family will not have one single quality in common, but are will share from a pool of qualities. One can see family resemblances between Abrahamic religions, Dharmic religions, the members of a biological family, and Pagan religions. Pagans tend to share a set of ritual characteristic and commonalities--Pagan religions are "orthopraxic." At the risk of running on and on, I will merely say that if you investigate some of the other postings on this topic, you will find comments from others like myself who will fill you in on what some of those shared characteristics are.

To my friend Christopher W. Chase:
who quoted my statement:

"WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?"

and responded with:

"As Vine Deloria once famously wrote, "Non-Aboriginal" peoples are those who have not made meaningful reciprocal religious bonds with their physical geographic landscapes. This would include Anglo-American settlers. They have only been on the American continent a few hundred years. Hardly enough time to become indigenous."

Please keep in mind that my statement was intended to show that another commenter's attempt to use the terms "aboriginal, native and tribal" to define Paganism was in appropriate. My point was that everyone on the planet has an aboriginal homeland (e.g. Europeans are from Europe).So using the term aborignee to define a Pagan doesn't work (i.e. the fact that Europeans are from Europe does not make them Pagans).

It can also be said that many of us are settlers. African-Americans have been living on American soil for 400 hundred years. I fall into that category. I am a "settler" on American soil. My ancestors were brought here under forced circumstances. Native Americans are the caretakers of this land - they are the aboriginees of America. But you can find Afican-American settlers and European settlers who are self-described Pagans.

My point is that thoughout this discourse no one has to my satifaction defined Paganism. Yet the term is used thoughout. I have seen it referred to as an "Earth religion." I have seen it referred to as idol worship. But Christianity can be shown to be about idol worship. And Christianity can be shown to be an Earth religion - based upon its practice.

irnx hswylkn lwsiroth sehgcyz txragsd hogkcazd necgftr

irnx hswylkn lwsiroth sehgcyz txragsd hogkcazd necgftr

Umm, no, Concerned, she's speaking of who you know as 'Adam' in terms of your own myths. We don't have these.

Anyway, David.

Thanks for at least apologizing. Fair enough.

Part of the problem is that amid all the hostility and conversion pressure and third-class-citizenhood Pagans get, you walking in like your Bible is 'facts' in any objective sense outside your religion that makes you someone who is supposed to come 'save us from ignorance'.... yeah, that's disrespectful.

Contempt? Yes, for your flippancy and arrogance in doing that, like I never heard that line before.

Yes.

That's contemptible.

Not where I live, but, I don't take that.

Much.

Actually, we're pretty used to it, and tolerate a lot more than do Christians who freak about us taking over Walmart when employees aren't forced to say 'Merry *Christ*mas.*

Yeah, you treat it as an *attack* when your way isn't the *only* way.

Furthermore, you treat the whole world, not as 'people you really want to learn about' but as 'missionary targets' who are apparently 'just too stupid, in your mind, to *embrace your self-referential illogic.*

Probably a few thousand posts on this here, not trying to 'understand,' but trying to *find ways to say we're not real people with a real community and real rights as Americans.

Oh, yeah, one does get testy about that.

(BTW, you're not actually that sly when you say, 'I want to understand you... Of course I can't tolerate anything but Jesus, which authority I arrogate to myself, but I want to understand, really.' No, not that subtle. )

That said, I'll hold you to your word.

You want to understand us. Act like it.

Like we're people, not points on some cosmic scoreboard.

We're *real* folks. Our faith is *just as real, * if not more so, to us, than yours is to you.

After all, we're not out there trying to convert others to 'prove' something.

Assume, like, you're walking up to a strange tribe... A tribe you don't know. A friendly tribe, actually, ...Only we heard all the conversion lines (some of us were even trained to give them before going, 'OK, this ain't right.') ....and said no.

This is not a scene from your Bible. This is real. This is people.

The subject of this 'debate' is not Jesus. It's if we should have equal treatment under government policy which guarantees freedom of religion and reasonable accommodation for religious practice.

Still wanna meet us?

Welcome.

I interpret origional sin as a metaphor for our animal nature. We must be born again as gods to temper our selfish and tribal nature.

High Priestess,

Hmmmm, where did this Adam Kadmon come from? Another name delivery from some "pretty wingie talking thingie"??

Frank Collins wrote:

"there are at least 1,000 kkk members - what is they say they are a religion - want a special kkk chaplain? there are probably more people who do not believe in god - are they a religion too?"

Christopher responds:

Mr. Collins, the racist group Klu Klux Klan, so far as I know, makes no claim to be religious, although many of its members do see themselves as Protestant Christians in good standing, so they would most likely go to white Protestant Chaplains for support. The racist group known as "Aryan Nations," on the other hand, is explicitly seperatist and religious, and calls itself "The Church of Jesus Christ Christian." They might well want their own Christian chaplains. Those who claim to be Athiests already qualify for their own VA-approved headstone marker. Its a model of an atom with a capital "A" in the middle. Secular Humanists also have their own marker. And they had theirs long before Wiccans got one. Even though these philosophies are not religious (because of a lack of ritual) they are already honored by the publically paid government in terms of their value committments. All this is readily available information, Mr. Collins, and you might want to research your rhetorical questions before you ask them, as they might not be so rhetorical after all nor reflect well on your argument.

"It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Concerned,
This is a very close idea to the original meaning in Genesis. "Adam" in Hebrew is spelled "ADM" and, literally, means "human". The Adam spoken of here is Adam Kadmon or the archetypal human being. According to traditional Kabbalah all human beings, male and female, are Adam Kadmon. "Eve" is Hebrew for "mother" and She is viewed as the archetypal "mother", so Adam and Eve did not exist was individual human beings, but represent all human beings.
I'd also add that Genesis is highly symbolic: the Garden of Eden was never on earth, the four rivers that are said to flow into the Garden are the four elements of which Pagans are very familiar, and the Fall had to happen and was planned from the start of creation. It was the only way Ain Soph (G-d) could understand and experience Itself and chose to do it in Its most perfect form...homo sapien. The Fall also represents the moment in time when we became, as a species, self-conscious and self-aware. Likewise, each of us "falls" in childhood when we attain individual self-consciousness and self-awareness. For this reason, in the esoteric forms of Judaism and Christianity, the Fall isn't seen as bad or good, but a necessity.

Bosumfo Kofi wrote:

"WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?"

Christopher responds:

As Vine Deloria once famously wrote, "Non-Aboriginal" peoples are those who have not made meaningful reciprocal religious bonds with their physical geographic landscapes. This would include Anglo-American settlers. They have only been on the American continent a few hundred years. Hardly enough time to become indigenous.

Terra,

I truly appreciate your explanation of Wicca, Paganism, etc. My intent on this question is merely for my own educational purposes. I do believe you are nice people and would hope that you could take away the assumption that I think you are mean and terrible people. I never said this, but you seem to assume it somehow.

You said,

In your post you assumed that all should follow your belief. You made blanket statements that all are in sin and all are fallen. All should follow the bible and all....etc.

This is what Christians believe. I never said you had to believe it yourself. This is purely factual Biblical information. Please try to remember that someone by the name of "Anyone" asked me about original sin and how they do not understand this. I educated them on what the Bible says about it. I will take your advice and when posting Biblical facts I will indicate that "according to the Bible". My intentions are not to offend anyone. I was simply educating someone who asked an honest question about original sin. Then I got attacked for honestly answering that question in biblical terms.

You said,

"First off get rid of your old preconcieved ideas"

I never had any preconcieved ideas. This is also assumptuous on your part. I really had no idea what Wicca was or how it is practiced. If you think that I thought you were all witches who ride brooms and cast spells, your completely wrong. I saw an ignorant "Christian" on here, Frank Collins, assuming this and with no respect and disregard for human equality he rhetorically would mention these things. I can tell he is full of hatred and misunderstanding. Please do not assume we are all like this. And if you think I am only here to convert people that is wrong as well. I am here to educate myself as well. How can we live in a peaceful society if we do not understand our differences? This is why my curiosity has led me here, to see what you believe and why. If you ask me why I believe what I believe I will give you an honest answer. Isn't that what forums like this should be about? Or should it be the continuous onslaught of "I'm right, your wrong". It seems that forums like this divide people more than unite them. I believe in debating with someone as long as it's done with respectful intent, but also shouldn't we be understanding of what are differences are as well?

I hope you can see that I am not ill-intended here. I do have faith in the God of the Bible and love to teach anyone who wants to know more. I in turn would like to know more about your faith as well.

So if it is ok, I would like to know more about Wicca from one who practices this religion. So from your description of Wicca and the likes, is it safe to assume that is really is not a systematic religion? It seems sort of mixed with polytheistic tones, along with pantheistic and sometimes monotheistic as well? And maybe a more difficult question to answer is I'm wondering how you know these gods exist? Is it from a spiritual aspect that you get confirmation? Or is there actual written testimony that you follow from ancient times? Also, since "Pagan" is an umbrella term for many religions, then could we keep this conversation on the aspect of Wicca?

Thanks Terra and you too paganplace. If I ever offended any of you, forgive me, that was not my intention whatsoever. Have a great evening

David

David,
In your post you assumed that all should follow your belief. You made blanket statements that all are in sin and all are fallen. All should follow the bible and all....etc.

Your religion is your's. You can come on here and say...according to my belief...or this is what I believe. But please, there are more then Christians on this board, and if you are going to bear witness expect to shake the dust off your feet.

And David..
Pagan is an umbrella term for many religions. Paganplace, I and a number of others on this forum are Wiccan. Wicca is one of many Pagan religions. Oh BTW- Pagan means Country Person, not unbeliever or Godless.

Wicca is a contemporary spiritual religion, based on and reviving the ancient pre-Christian religion. Wiccans believe in a divine force or power as the source of all. It is both immanent and transcendent while encompassing the whole universe. Therefore the world and all aspects within the world, "nature" and "life itself" in particular, are considered sacred.

We honor many gods...some see the gods as facets of the One Force of Creation...that is called soft Polytheism, some honor gods that they see as individual and seperate..that is Polytheism.

Wiccans believe it to be manifest in the form of a Goddess and God. As they emanate from the same source, both retain equal power, hence equal status. By manifesting the power in two deities (Goddess and God), the natural balance of opposites, cause and effect are retained, e.g. Summer/winter, light/ dark, life and death etc. Each opposite is essential to maintaining the balance and rhythm of life on earth.

There are other Pagan religions: Asstru; which is the Norse religion,they call each other Heathens...Druidism, Wicca, Strega,and others.

First off get rid of your old preconcieved ideas..they will not work. WE are nice folk, but get really tired of having to play nice with those who think it is their aim in life to convert us. As if our loved faith is not quite up to standards.

Join us in communication and in shareing.Paganplace is respectful...you need to give some also.

Blessed be,
terra

Paganplace,

I'm not sure what all your contempt is about. Someone merely asked me a question and I responded according to Christian beliefs. I never asked you if you believed them or not or even said that I was better than you as you seem to insinuate. I think that's the problem with anti-Christian rhetoric, it's based on an assumption that we think we are better than you. Sorry if some "christian" along the lines told you this, but that truly is not Biblical.

Concerning sin. You say as a pagan you think the idea of sin is what seperates you from God. How is this? I feel that acknowledging that I am no 'god' and that I am full of fault and sin is the only way to a perfect and Holy God. Otherwise it's called PRIDE.

And I've asked this on different threads but can't seem to get a clear understanding. As a pagan do you have a god or several gods or no god or what? How does that work? Do you worship something or someone? I really have no idea how paganism works. I could look it up on the internet, but I prefer to see what an actual person who practices this says about it. If you don't feel like sharing I understand.

A bit of advice paganplace. If someone is posting something about their own beliefs that was in question from someone else, it is right that you attack the person who responded honestly? You have every right not to believe in "sin" or the God of the Bible, but what I was doing was simply sharing the biblical aspect of things to a person who was simply asking a biblical question. Is that so wrong? Also, how bout leaving out the sarcasm as well...

I think that's *your* problem, sport.

You know?

Obvious sign of anger and contempt. How about a little respect?

Toward a bit of understanding, here:

"Of course no one had any choice of how we were born. Just like the color hair we have is no choice as well, so is sin. It is the sin that was brought into this world by the first man, Adam."

This is an assertion within your religion: it doesn't define others.

"We all must admit that we have broken at least one of God's laws in our time. Whether it be lying, stealing, cussing, etc. These are all things that go against what God told us not to do."

This, again, is your religious belief.

It does not logically follow that people who don't live by those laws must necessarily (or even likely) be thieves and liars or have ...umm, unrefined language, as you assert.

('Cussing' is, umm, just not seen in the same terms by Pagans in general. Sex and excreta are not seen as 'abominations' or the other things which make these words religiously-forbidden to archaic Christian mindsets: sexual aggression in the form of using sexual expressions to metaphorically attack others is seen as harmful: we don't run around saying, 'Gods Damn This Uncooperative Object,' not cause it's "forbidden," but because it *doesn't really make sense.* )

"But instead we choose to sin. This sin seperates us from God. All of mankind has sinned "All have fallen short of the glory of God." Therefore we must be redeemed."

This is where sometimes Christian rationales for things become offensive. Especially when it's considered a 'sin' in and of itself to not follow that idea in the first place.

As a Pagan, I'd say, the *idea* of 'sin' is what 'separates us from 'God.''

We don't see *people* as inherently set up by a lawgiver to be forever fallen short of being *good people.* We see our Gods as a *positive* force, helping us to live better, not condemning us if we don't match someone's idea of what someone's idea of some words are supposed to mean what's behind some idea of some God *wants.*

We're called immoral for this, but I say our 'morality' is much more direct.

You may freak out because we don't condemn certain harmless actions as taboo, but that doesn't make us *actually bad people.*

We don't think you really are, either.

Saying, "I think I'm an awful horrible spiritual criminal, (but not as bad as you,) too," doesn't mean it's right to run around calling people 'spiritual criminals,"

We're perfectly capable of understanding and respecting your beliefs about yourselves. This doesn't mean it's just when you apply them to people who have nothing to do with it.

See?

" It's not that you must admit any particular sin in order for you to be considered repentant, but confess that you are a sinner. Why would God forgive you of your sins if you could not even admit your a sinner? And how could He forgive you of your sins if you don't have faith in the one who died for you sins?"

I dunno, I could talk about it with you, but in the end, when you try to use it to say others don't have a 'real religion,' well,

I think that's *your* problem, sport.

You know?

"Gov't, society, & churches are fighting this. Churches that lose members...lose money. If the world removed a dominate religion would there be anarchy?"

That's the religious belief of some others, actually, as an *excuse* to keep people in the fold and devalue others. Even if it takes lying about them, apparently, I'm afraid.

This whole line, "Pagans believe, 'Anything goes!' It's anarchy! Chaos and depravity!'"

Just not true.

We see shades of it in people trying to rationalize us not being treated as a real and vital faith community that *does* have values, standards, and a vital, diverse, cohesiveness.

On our own terms.

But it's there.

Monotheistic religions can point to one book or another, but in fact, the *book* is used to *say* they're so much more consistent when in fact, the book means whatever a group or individual wants it to, if folks are so inclined.

So it's a spurious argument for discrimination and demonization of the innocent.

It is true that few people understand Paganism/Wicca/Old Religion. I do not believe that it is a matter of education or enlightenment or the lack there of that has lead people to prejudice. Rather that society is close-minded (and happy about it?). You do only what you are taught or told to do (since it is easier on us that way). An easy way to be accepted and popular. How many people 50 years ago thought about Wicca or converting to another religion if there were raised as the traditional Christian or Catholic? Why all of a sudden are we seeing more and more wiccans/pagans? Are we breaking the bonds of "follow the leader?" Or has it always been in our hearts just not in out heads. Trapped by a book called "The Bible."

Gov't, society, & churches are fighting this. Churches that lose members...lose money. If the world removed a dominate religion would there be anarchy? Paganism is so diverse and there is now real scare tactics (like burning in hell) if we do no uphold the laws or commandments. It is like we can do whatever we want. What gov't wants someone in office with that mind set...I mean the things that could happen (Positive Change-OMG!!). Most people in society, or at least that which I know of, prefers to conform and melt in not to stand out and be pointed at. Pagans/Wiccans should not be out expressing their values to people through a television program, chaplains, newsletters, etc., but changing the world in settle ways. We have come a long way in a short time. I think that the military recognizing Wiccans/Pagans was a huge step. Let's keep a steady pace from here.

Hello Prytan, welcome to the forum.

You say, "It does not matter who I agree or disagree with, everyone on this site is respectful and writes intelligently."

I find that the more Pagans there are on the forum, the more likely the conversation is to be respectful and intelligent.

If you want to see some nasty remarks, there are plenty over on the chuck colson thread.

David,

Way off the topic but since the issue was raised:

A real world analyses of "Adam" and original sin as being taught in many Catholic universities: (e.g. Catholic U, Notre Dame)

"The story of Adam and Eve is only symbolic.
This story was composed in the 900s BCE and functions as an etiology (explanatory myth) . In the 900s Israel was self ruling, under King David
and Solomon. The people were no longer at war and the question" Why are we not happy?" may have been asked. The short answer is sin. (Look at 1 Kings 11 for some clues into why the story depicts Eve sinning first and then tempting Adam [Solomon]).

Original Sin is symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our
families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain
patterns of sin in particular families and societies.

Baptism does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist. The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer accepted.
Infant Baptism is only a rite of initiation and commits parents and godparents to bringing up the child in a Christian home."

From additional sources:

And if there was no Adam and Eve, it follows that there was no biblical Noah. see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark#Other_flood_stories

As per National Geographic's Genographic project:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ Miracles

" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.

"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time.

Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.

It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Frank Collins wrote: "there is no such thing as a religon of pagans.
they have the right to think how they want to think and act as silly as they want to act - but that does not make them a religion."

Frank, you have made this claim repeatedly. What you have never done is answer the question:
What, in your opinion, are the qualifications for a set of beliefs to be cosidered a religion?

Anyone,

Of course no one had any choice of how we were born. Just like the color hair we have is no choice as well, so is sin. It is the sin that was brought into this world by the first man, Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

We all must admit that we have broken at least one of God's laws in our time. Whether it be lying, stealing, cussing, etc. These are all things that go against what God told us not to do. But instead we choose to sin. This sin seperates us from God. All of mankind has sinned "All have fallen short of the glory of God." Therefore we must be redeemed. It's not that you must admit any particular sin in order for you to be considered repentant, but confess that you are a sinner. Why would God forgive you of your sins if you could not even admit your a sinner? And how could He forgive you of your sins if you don't have faith in the one who died for you sins?

I think if you already know what Jesus taught in the four gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, John) then I would advise you to study the book of Romans. It goes into detail about how we are justified by God's grace. We are saved by faith alone. Don't let anyone tell you that you can add to that faith to recieve salvation. If you want more insight on "faith alone" let me know.

But when it comes to original sin, this is the hereditary trait passed on to all mankind by Adam since he introduced sin into the world. God did not intend for man to sin. He gave man free-will to choose. Unfortunately we all have chosen to sin, most likely several times. I myself continue to sin unknowingly sometimes, but because I am saved and have recieved the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit convicts me (John 16:9,14) of that sin to let me know what I have done wrong instead of in my pre-salvation days when I would continue to sin without caring about it. This is of course something that cannot be explained fully because it is of spiritual nature and that is something that has to be experienced in order to understand. Any Christian will tell you the same.

So please, I urge you to continue to ask questions. I have faith in God's Word that He can and will lead you in the right path. But asking questions is good. There's a quote by theologian Ravi Zacharias that I like.

"What makes sense in my heart has to make sense in my head".

Contrary to what atheists believe, it is logical to have faith in God. It is logical because the Bible isn't just some book that tells you to believe or else. It has evidences that upon examination can make sense of it in your head. I myself could not fully accept Christ with just a "blind faith", I needed more than that to convince me and God sure didn't let me down.

Please, any other questions feel free. This is what God wants me to do. To help guide people to salvation which is by faith in Jesus.

David
What sin am I admitting. Is it the orginal sin of being born in sin? Where is that in the bible that we are born in sin? I just don't get it. I didn't have any choice in how I was born.

SU,

Actually the word "religion" is in the Bible.

Acts 25:19
Acts 26:5
1 Timothy 5:4
James 1:26

And sin is a disease that we all need a crutch for. And that crutch is Jesus. The only healer of the disease of sin.

You asked if Jesus died for your sins and your forgiven then why is there a Judgement Day?

Because your not forgiven until you repent and have faith. Faith alone is Jesus is what saves you. Eph 2:8-9, Rom 5:1. This faith includes the faith that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected on the third day. Repentance is admittance that you are a sinner and in need of God's forgiveness. With a true repentance and faith in Jesus you are saved from eternal seperation from God, known as hell.

I hope that one day you will be saved too upon accepting Christ. If you have any other questions regarding the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, please ask away. Take care.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military, why are we discussing this issue?????

P.S. As per another commentator on another page, the word "religion" is mentioned in the NT a number of times. In Acts twice if I remember correctly and once in James' epistle.

The Wiccan Rede says it in 8 words that it takes christians 10 commandments to say:"An it harm none,do what ye will." This is America,last time I checked, founded on freedom of religion. People, read and educate yourself before condemning something you don't understand. Organized religions are nothing but man-made rules for people who need crutches to get through life.If that's what they need and want, good for them, as long as they're not knocking on my door trying to jam their beliefs down my throat. By the way, the word religion isn't even in the Bible. And maybe one of you christians can answer this: if Jesus died for my sins and I am forgiven, why is there going to be a Judgement Day when we all have to line up to atone??

Hey Frank Taylor:

Some of us have noticed the stains left on the wall and the nail holes. There's lots of flavors of Jello and several sizes of nails. Correct, they are all doing the same thing no matter. Then comes the one dumb enough to examine the holes and ponder the source of the nails.

That would be http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul from which comes the most common jelling agent used to make the Jello.

The motivation of the Jello salesmen is obvious. The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. They call Devil God but that does not make Devil God. We can reasonably confident it makes Devil happy. Devil has a huge bank account. He got the money from those making "gifts to God" and collected by His agents who use it to spread His truths.

PAGANPLACE, you still haven't answered my question: What motivates you? I know it's not money,, like all the rest.

FYI: Wiccnas are to Paganism as Baptists are to Christianity. It's just a subset of the whole. Some pagans are Wiccan. The smart ones aren't.

I get so tired of all these people thinking take have to be judging and putting us down us who choose a different path. It was refreshing to see you Dr. educated on who we actually are instead of just saying cruel things. My best friend and mentor is a conservative Christian. She's never thrown it in my face and said mean things like most. When I go visit stay with her for a week here or there I always enjoy going to church with her. I don't agree with all they teach but still like the people there. I have a Wiccan uncle who is totally turned off by all Christians. Because of Leslie I know all Christians are not judgmental and cruel the way may unfortunately are. I can't blame my uncle with our family always throwing the hole he and I are going to hell and are worshiping the devil thing in our faces. Years of that cruelty wear on a person. I think many Christians need to reminded Jesus lived a life of love towards all not just the ones who believed what he did. I have alot of respect for you Dr. You have gone above and beyond to learn about others instead of just judging rudely.

Most of these posts are trying to nail Jello to a wall, huffing and puffing about whose religion is 'better'.

It really doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what you do.

You can use your religion (or lack thereof) as an excuse to be a jerk, or you can use it as a way to motivate you to do something good. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

John says:

"Human sacrifice anyone, the ancient Celtic pagans were pretty good at it, as were the Aztecs."

What is the distinction between the examples you provide and the sacrifice for the salvation of all humankind performed by Yeshua ( renamed Jesus Christ)?

Wicca is NOT an old religion, but rather a 20th century invention that owes its origins more to Victorian imagination than to ancient practices.

Human sacrifice anyone, the ancient Celtic pagans were pretty good at it, as were the Aztecs.

Anonymous:

In response to your statement:
"But, again, Paganism isn't too concerned with the explanation of how our relationship with the gods work. People who become serious about Paganism spend time learning how to *do* Paganism, not what to believe about it."

First I cannot speak for Paganist as I am not one. However, I do agree that many traditional religions seem to be preoccupied with the practice as opposed to a believe system. It has been my experience also that if you do not ask then you remain without the knowledge of the underlying belief system. It does not mean it does not exist. You just have to search for it within Paganism just as I had to persist in searching for it within the Akom. Knowlege of the practice without the Wisdom is incomplete.

PaganPlace

First, I am not picking on you. Peace be unto you. I just think we need to be clear about the use/misuse of terminology.

Your following statement is of concern:
"This [Earth Religion] is usually taken to include all Pagans and most 'aboriginal' and tribal peoples"

But Paganplace, WHAT PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE NOT "ABORINGINAL" OR "TRIBAL"? Aren't Europeans the aboriginees/tribal people/natives of Europe? Does that make them followers of Earth Religions?

An the use of the term "idol worshippers" is not useful to describe Earth Religions. Other than very few religions, most spiritual paths have a symbol though which God, a diety or an ancestor is worshipped. Let's look at Catholicism and all its saint statues, the Holy Cross, and the Dove as a symbol of the Holy Spirit. So is the Akom of Ghana any more an Earth Religion than Catholicism? I guess not. Let's look at what people do - not what they say they do.

Peace

>From what I can tell, the Pagans/pagans do not have *any* formal belief requirements, so really, there is no basis within paganism to *tell* someone that they are doing something "wrong" if they disrespect others. It's all personal opinion, and anything goes, even interpersonal disrespect if that's what somone Wills. Yes?

Various specific Pagan systems propose various guidelines for action. My own path thinks in terms of 'virtues' - such as discernment, inspiration, courage, honor, diligence, etc. Wicca begins with the very simple 'witches rede' (rede means advice) - "If it harm none, do what you will". Just as in most every human ethical system, respecting others is a core principle. Much Pagan philosophy holds that the divine is present in us all, so how can we choose to disrespect any being?

But, again, Paganism isn't too concerned with the explanation of how our relationship with the gods work. People who become serious about Paganism spend time learning how to *do* Paganism, not what to believe about it. We learn to meditate, to do ritual, to hear the voice of the divine in our own lives. There is a body of fairly common ritual and teaching tradition in neopaganism - a web-search on 'Pagan ritual' or, more specifically 'Wiccan ritual' (to focus on one 'denomination' of Paganism) will show you a nearly universal set of methods, even as explanations vary widely. It is the methods that define the path, not the beliefs.

Dear PAGANPLACE:

“Btw, I think CS Lewis is neat, he just tends to *appropriate* anything he thinks was good about our Pagan ancestors, give Christianity the credit for us, and then say how horrible he thinks Paganism is.”

The more Christian people who understand the discipline of thought exercised by C.S. Lewis, Paul, and Augustine, the easier it will be to discuss these things with others holding different views. All of them came from other backgrounds, and understood them well without self righteousness.

I believe that any Christian who persecutes others in the name of Jesus Christ must ask himself who it is that he is really following just then. I think a careful look might reveal the shadow of Wormwood sitting on his shoulder egging him on, with Screwtape approving in the background thinking of the meal this one will make. Metaphorically, of course. :-)))

PaganPlace
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

Are you sure of your definition of Earth Religion?

You said "what's usually meant by the phrase 'Earth Religions' (short for Earth-centered religions:) is as a blanket term for those which are not centered around an external Deity revealed through words, that created the Earth and people as a means to some other end, but rather, those religions which find the Divine *in* Earth, and possibly also beyond. :)"

Well, I would differ with that. In the Akom tradition the first name that we call out when pouring libation is to the Supreme One and secondly to Mother Earth. We find the Divine in Mother Earth - that which was created - as well in the Creator. Our belief system is not centered on Mother Earth. Rather it is centered around an understanding that the Divine can be found in the Creator as well as all things created - Mother Earth being one of those things. That there is a spark of the Divine within all things created. In fact the word Nyame (an Akan word for Creator)can be literally translated to mean "nothing exist except for Nyame". In other words while there are many things, the one underlying principle is Nyame. So that would not make us an Earth Religion according to your definition. But do we have reverence for Mother Earth? Yes, as well as the Oceans, the mountains etc because we recognize that Nyame has many faces.

And I would think that the belief system that I just described can be found amoung Native Americans and other ancient traditions. These traditions do not ascribe to an Earth Religion as you define Earth Religion. As I said earlier, it is the labels and misunderstandings asscociated with these labels that divide us.

It appears to me that "Pagans" like to "apostrophize".

Dear Frank:

“here are at least 1,000 kkk members - what is they say they are a religion - want a special kkk chaplain?

The KKK was a racist terrorist group that wrapped itself up in the Christian community. They are no better than Al Queda blowing up the WTC. They have no place in the discussion going on here.

“there is no such thing as a religon of pagans.”

Several thousand years of history, and hundreds of millions of adherents throughout the ages are against you on that one. For that matter St. Paul is against you on that one.

“they have the right to think how they want to think and act as silly as they want to act - but that does not make them a religion.”

If they seek and worship God (or the Gods for that matter) they are a religion. You may think it is the wrong one, but they are a religion. For God's sake we call Scientology a religion and L. Ron Hubbard explicitly started it as a tax dodge. You don't get to say who has a religion, they do.

“there are probably more people who do not believe in god - are they a religion too?”

The Atheist who boldly asserts that God does not exist is practicing religion. So yes, they are.

The first Amendment of the constitution says:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Your neighbors on this blog are availing themselves of their rights under the Free Exercise Clause. All serious religious people should jealously guard the Free Exercise rights of others. Jews should protect Christians, Christians should protect Moslems, and yes we all should protect Wiccans. Free Exercise is one thing we should ALL be able to agree on.

BTW there are Anti-Theists who want to forbid religious expression in the “public square” under a perversion of the concept of “Separation of Church and State”. So start a principled and systematic application of the Free Exercise Clause now. It is the right thing to do, and it will, in the end, protect your own right of Free Exercise.

Robert Gilman,

UU stands fdor Unitarian Universalist.

The Unitarians were originally a Christian splinter group that split with Mainstream Christianity over the doctrine of the triune godhead. Unitarians said God was one, not three in one.

The Universalists believed that a loving merciful god would never condemn anyone to hell - that salvation was available to all.

SOme years back, the two merged to form Unitarian Universalism. Modern UU churches use the Bible as one of many sources of wisdom and guidance. The pastor at the UU church I attend pulls sermon material from such diverse sources as the Bible, the Q'ran, the blues, jazz, Harry Potter books, Kurt Vonnegut, and Dr. Suess - to name but a few. Most UU churches are also heavily invlved in community service, just like other churches are. The one I attend has an ongoing grocery collection for a local soup kitchen, as well as a group of people who travel to New Orleans on a regular basis to work on houses that still need to be gutted and rebuilt as a result of Katrina. When the offertory is taken, the cash portion is often split with such organizations as the food bank, the battered women's shelter, or Habitat for Humanity. The church is also a Welcoming COngregation, which means that we don't simply "tolerate" our BLGT members, we are actively affirming of them.

Were pagan soldiers in the protest?

Were pagan soldiers in the protest?

TERRA, easy, no income means no income tax. Got it.

Be careful about that charity stuff else you'll be confused as a Jesus follower, "sell all your earthly possessions and give to the poor"

No Christians are doing that ya know. Christians "jealously guard all they got and squeeze every penny they can out of the poor." They point out that Jesus rewards the poor who give citing the parable of the poor woman who gave half of all she had while the rich man only gave a small portion of his great wealth. What the rich man gave was multiples of what she gave dollar wise but Jesus love the poor woman more,, probably explains why she is poor, (see above quote from Jesus about giving it all).

When you get equal rights I want to declare my house a Pagan tabernacle so I can avoid property taxes. Mormons do that already in Utah. I'm prepared to dedicate it to any god you please and will feel my prayers have been answered. How can Christians not want prayers to be answered? Explains why that church went under during Katrina no doubt.

regards

And, frankly. You wanna see more 'Pagan Charity,' people... How bout you lay off and not leave us in the position of constantly having to argue and fight for our rights as Americans and our human dignity.

Just Lady Selena Fox has had to put in huge hours just to secure for us what Christians seem to have white knuckles about *giving us as Americans.*

I've been to her *house.*

She ain't holding nothing back, I assure you.

Let my people be free.

Then, you want help helping the poor, all you gotta do is call.

I lived there on the street, or barely off it with a bolthole to call my own for the next month, for a lot of this life, while so many Christians been busy constructing the illegitimacy of non-Christians and trumpeting a 'charity' which *is not there at street level, except as advertising or compulsion, folks.*

Just not there. Not like you so congratulate yourselves about.

And in the name of Gods who never told me to kneel to them, or profess them, or get others to, who saw me through some rough *ahem,* I did my best in my time to emulate.

That included not advertising.

This is very much our way.

Frankly, if you'd let us be in the fist place, we wouldn't be this 'famous.' :)

Hi, Terra, ...yeah, this rankles:

"We get no funds for our charities from the gov. No Faith Based funds... in fact the guy that was in charge of that, Jim Towey said:
"I haven't run into a pagan faith-based group yet, much less a pagan group that cares for the poor! Once you make it clear to any applicant that public money must go to public purposes and can't be used to promote ideology, the fringe groups lose interest. Helping the poor is tough work and only those with loving hearts seem drawn to it."

No, we handle our charities ourselves. No money from out side of the community.In fact in many instances when we have taken collections of canned goods at our Sabbats, they have been turned down by those groups that are said to help the poor."

There's also a real lack of understanding that there are few "Pagan Charities" because to Pagans, charity isn't a means to an end to prove something about Paganism.

Sharing to 'promote Paganism and say all others are uncharitable' is *not part of our beliefs or priorities.*

You got something to give, you go ahead and give it. You don't raise a hymn to your generosity, you just do it.

If you want to say, 'Hey, a bunch of Pagans thought you might like some food,' then well, we can say that.

Funny how people who want to insist how inferior and uncharitable we are... who want to insist that charity and sharing come from their God, tend to be very invested in *not passing out that food to the poor if it comes from Pagans.*

Almost like they're trying to 'prove' something that's not true, ennit?

I'll admit, Pagans do not tend to accumulate vast wealth and then give away a couple million of it to assuage a conscience. We do tend to believe that excess is *excessive,* and don't go scrabbling it up in the first place.

But we share what we have as we can.

Frankly, if that disqualifies any of us from helping some people with these 'faith based initiatives,' well, I wonder what 'faith' these things are *really* supposed to some from.

Fact is, this 'Faith-based initiative' is a way to funnel money to the evangelical 'base' while actually in the aggregate doing *less* for the poor.

It's not about helping people, it's about *ritualizing* helping people for the glory of a religion while actually padding the pockets of the rich and telling them how 'Christian and Loving' they are when they do the opposite.

Oh, and, by the way:

" Bosumfo Kofi:

I have been a graduate priest of the Akom religion of the Akan people of Ghana for over 10 years. I find this dialogue very interesting."

Welcome to our humble verbal fracas and occasional hug-fest! :)

I'm wondering if I've heard some of your storytellers. (Lots of that comes out of Ghana, it's seemed. )

Just on this:

"For example, the term “earth-religion” has been misunderstood. We all live on Mother Earth so every spiritual path (Christianity, Wicca, Akom, Islam, Ifa) gives reverence to that creation of the Supreme One. Tell me if I am wrong."

Well, I wouldn't say 'Wrong,' ....what's usually meant by the phrase 'Earth Religions' (short for Earth-centered religions:) is as a blanket term for those which are not centered around an external Deity revealed through words, that created the Earth and people as a means to some other end, but rather, those religions which find the Divine *in* Earth, and possibly also beyond. :)

This is usually taken to include all Pagans and most 'aboriginal' and tribal peoples: it's an attempt at classification, as well as, for a lot of us, describing a certain solidarity we feel. It's not to say that people who say 'Earth Religions' don't themselves see, say, Christians, as actually people of the Earth...

It's meant to (broadly) describe an *approach* as much as anything else.

Certainly, people of 'Earth Religions' usually have some idea what each other are talking about, when 'revealed' ones tend to flap their arms and scream a lot about 'idolatry' and the like. :)

"You worship the Created instead of the Creator!"

"Umm, what is this 'instead' you speak of? it's a sacred tree... it's, umm, sacred." :)

It's... a label. Hardly perfect, but does it have to be, if you're not of a legalistic mindset in the first place? :)

Yes, there are some similarities between all religions, one might say, ...ones that *can* unify, if they aren't merely intended to 'assimilate.'

Too often, say, some Native American tribes idea of 'God' or 'Great Spirit' or 'Creator' is turned around to say, "See, they *really* believe in our God and were waiting for us to bring them Jesus, and whatever they may say about it, they really *like it,*"

This isn't to say there's not really a common humanity, ...just that what to do about it means different things to different people, and, I think, it's a shortcut to ruin to 'cut to the chase' and let folks say, 'It's all our God, have our Bible.'

One thing about 'Earth religions' would seem to be, ...Grown, not made. Of course there's diversity. But... yes, the commonality of Earth.

Alive, ensouled, and in human terms, 'Divine.'

Beauty of it is, you don't have to take my, or any word (or Word) for it. It's just there.

'Earth Religions' is a term meant to show some respect for all these non-expansionist traditions that just get ignored... like here, when Pagans are being told we don't have a 'real religion' because we don't hold to books and texts and authorities as Christians do.

We're an Earth religion. Lots of them, really.

Like the Mother has many children, so do we have many ways of looking. This term is to say, 'Defining the vast majority and diversity of human religions in human history out of legitimacy cause a few define 'religion' otherwise... Doesn't mean that all religion is "Book" religion.

Earth religion, we all can have, whether you're from Ghana or Teele Square. :)

" So, one could argue that to the extent that the practice of Christianity incorporates honor and respect for the planet that would make Christianity an “earth religion”. It strikes me that we have more in common based upon what we practice. It is the labels and diverse interpretations of those labels that divide us.

BGone,

As far as money goes...
I recieve no money, not as a teacher, not as a leader. Most Wiccan clergy recieve nothing for their time and energy. Most teachers will charge only for what suppies they use.

Yes there are some Wiccan groups who have tax exemptions...but that does not mean that they are rakeing in the money. The courts have even said our books are not tax exempt such as buying the bible by Christian churches are.

We get no funds for our charities from the gov. No Faith Based funds... in fact the guy that was in charge of that, Jim Towey said:
"I haven't run into a pagan faith-based group yet, much less a pagan group that cares for the poor! Once you make it clear to any applicant that public money must go to public purposes and can't be used to promote ideology, the fringe groups lose interest. Helping the poor is tough work and only those with loving hearts seem drawn to it."

No, we handle our charities ourselves. No money from out side of the community.In fact in many instances when we have taken collections of canned goods at our Sabbats, they have been turned down by those groups that are said to help the poor.

We do what we do for the good of the Earth and All Her children. Not for gain.
terra

Btw, I think CS Lewis is neat, he just tends to *appropriate* anything he thinks was good about our Pagan ancestors, give Christianity the credit for us, and then say how horrible he thinks Paganism is.

That whole, 'If they did good, they 'prefigured Christ,' but were otherwise evil non-Christians.'

Annoying. Still some good thoughts in there, if you can hold the indignance in check. (or don't let yourself be flattered about Christian superiority.) He don't make it easy. :)

"Dear PAGANPLACE:

“You need to understand, that in terms of the Great Goddess, this is not simply a reaction to the baggage of Judeo-Christianity, ..it also has much to do with sincerely relating to the Universe as first and foremost a Mother.”

"Thank you for the viewpoint. You are right that we are doing different things in parallel. For me, "He" or "She" is preferable to "It", but He has come to carry too much baggage from the patriarchal types. (I think Jesus himself was not one of these.)"

I think that one day, we'll have more productive sharing of viewpoints: right now there's a lot of noise and a constant need to 'defend' ourselves, which gets in the way of the sharing of things:

It's also true that "Judeo-Christian baggage" that kind of programs people to connect any large or 'kingly' male divinity with the particular views and hangups of certain forms of monotheism... doesn't make it very productive for Pagans to say 'God' in most contexts, particularly the interfaith ones: as a rule of thumb, the 'bigger' a Pagan Deity is, the less anthropomorphized it'll be seen as.

So, it's not like we say 'The Goddess' as a way of saying, 'She's *not* male, at all,' but rather that that's what we as humans bring to this. It functions in much of our theology, actually, beyond amusing exchanges with Christians that go like this:

"God is Everything,"

"Sure is neat, isn't She?"

"Everything but *that!*"

:)

"It" isn't a very nice word, either, in our language, admittedly. But we also don't conflate, say, any figure like Zeus or say, Odin, with *the summation of universal divinity,* ...those are specific personalities, not the whole kit and kaboodle, so to speak.

We do often say 'The Goddess' in terms of a 'transcendent,' "God." (we'd say transcendent *and* immanent: Goddess as the entirety of the universe, seen and unseen, not an externalized Creator and ruler.)

So, the concept is somewhat different, though not so much from what some monotheists experience when they experience the wonder of the crashing sea *as* God instead of going, "What an awesome watch, I wonder who constructed it!"

Anyway, a little patience, there. :) This is kind of about our existence and validity and rights, makes it a little harder to actually share, especially when so many are in a hurry to say, 'You're not what you say you are, you're selfish, greedy God-hating, ....ewww.. *environmentalists,* you. :)'

What can you do. :)

REV E WILLIAMS, you make some very good points. Baptist may hate Catholics but must keep that hidden as best they can. When it comes to Pagans, no holds bared.

That probably has a deep dark psychological base. What with "ecumenical" saying "the same God" other Christians are no longer condemned to hell. It's a different story for Pagans. In the words of the ignorant, "everybody knows they're going to hell."

Hell is the key. During all persecutions the "everybody knows they're going to hell" is the precursor to speeding up the process. Burning at the stake was just a preview of coming attractions for the condemned to hell already.

Battles like D-Day, Iwo Jima and so on, Viet Nam even seem to be a thing of the past. I personally don't believe chaplains helped all that much if at all in past wars and wonder how they do in places like Iraq that seem to signal a new variety of warfare that's here to stay.

So I would say throw all chaplains out but if not then let all varieties in, by the same ground rules without discrimination of any kind. Pagans seem to be threatening the established religions what with all the "wolf" cry heard. Of course I see them all as sheep in wolf's clothing, could be a skunk under there.

There's a time to fight and a time to pray. When the two are mixed both suffer. I'd hate to have my position overrun because my comrades were praying instead of fighting. And what kind of praying can be done with "bombs bursting in air" while praying? A little common sense can go a long way and especially when it's your skin.

Great series of posts.

All I can add is, "is anyone really surprised?"

When this administration started its drive to bring religion into as much of the government as it could it opened the door to this type of thing.

I am just waiting for the first law suit (if there is not one already) from the "Church of Satan" suing due to the fact that it is not allowed to get or apply for grants under "The Faith Based Initiative" whatever that is. It is my "belief" that if you are going to give vouchers or grants to "faith based" schools or social service programs you had better give them to WICCA and to whomever else steps forward with "deeply held religious beliefs."

What I really think is that we are on a very slippery slop here and that our republic would be far better off "rendering to Cesar what is Cesar's and to the Lord what is the Lord's" The people who had the foresight to set our nation up well understood the dangers of mixing what cannot be mixed, religion and government. One is about faith and there can be no compromise...the other is about compromise.

So....not sure that adds much here but it is a great thread.

Oregonrain

Another point of attention is the need for greater self-awareness of the various motivators behind our prejudices and preconceptions.

The archetypal battle between matriarchy/patriarchy, the often subconcious cultural conditioning regarding deep issues of regulation/control of reproduction, tribalistic religious identification & competition vs. logical adherence to its ideals, etc...

... there are perhaps many unexamined psycholical, historical, and (behavioral-biologic) motivators behind our attitudes, fears, and prejudices.

Such motivators may or may not be automatically invalid, but without the light of conscious, logical examination, reason, and self-awareness, they can control us into destruction, injustice, irrationality, hatred, and make us ignorant slaves of our prejudices, and conditioning.

Dear PAGANPLACE:

“You need to understand, that in terms of the Great Goddess, this is not simply a reaction to the baggage of Judeo-Christianity, ..it also has much to do with sincerely relating to the Universe as first and foremost a Mother.”

Thank you for the viewpoint. You are right that we are doing different things in parallel. For me, "He" or "She" is preferable to "It", but He has come to carry too much baggage from the patriarchal types. (I think Jesus himself was not one of these.)

“The idea that things must be 'deduced' as a basis of 'authority' from which a book of rules follows isn't... how things work for us. You're right that it's a source of theological frustration for those looking to defend the 'authority' of a text.”

Actually, the deductive religion idea is not founded on the authority of a text. It is founded on the best physical observations, logic, and mathematical analysis we can bring to it. The attempt is to strip away as many assumptions as possible. Still, all scientific knowledge rests on things that are taken of faith (axioms). Our enterprise is to make those things taken on faith as limpidly clear and as concise as possible.

The, separate, historical Christianity enterprise is by contrast based on the authority of library of texts, so you are right there. That said, I did not come them by authority, but by reading them with the mind of a skeptic.

You will find these two major religious currents in my discussion. I do my best to keep them separated. You may find useful results for your own explorations on the deductive side. Then again maybe not. :-) However, it is so embedded in my way of knowing that I will keep it regardless of its appeal to others.

Importantly, the deductive religion exercise has not produced anything contradictory to either historical Christianity, or Tarra's exposition of Wicca.

We have other things to be doing. :)

Having now read Tarra's exposition, I would rather have her as a neighbor than a Nietzschian. This is finally getting down to a healthy exchange of ideas. I hope that it will be of use to you as well. Keep in touch.

There are a few points that seem to be missed.

There WAS a potential pagan military chaplain. His name was Don Larsen. He WAS a military chaplain, as a Christain. When he converted to paganism, he was railroaded out.

The point of most traditions of Paganism that I have had the pleasure to know, do not assume that they have the "ultimate" truth. That is for the individual to discover. That each path has truth for its adherants. That is the true meaning of religion (To re-link or tie back to the Divine).

A military chaplain must be able to minister to everyone in his/her unit. They are there to provide for the spiritual support of the entire unit. Not just one group. As such, I would have more faith in a chaplian of a Pagan tradition being able to minister to a Christian than a Christian chaplain being able to minister to a member of a pagan tradition. Christian doctrine tells them not to have anything to do with the ways of pagans.

Also, as for politicians, just look at Rita Moran in the state of Maine. She was just doing her job as Democratic Chair for her county. She didn't make an issue out of her religion. She didn't force it on anyone, just served the community. She was attacked by extremist right-wing Christians, not for her political views, but for her religion alone. Why?

These are real people and real issues. These are not hypothetical. They are happening. Goggle their names.

VOLT RARE:
While the population of the earth was slight women were continually "in heat." When the population increased, the "relative" food supply etc diminished women stopped "uncontrolled" reproduction, reproduction is a multi step process involving sex. Those ancient battles of the sexes was about sex. The notion of one man, one woman comes from "important" men with many women. I think they called them harems. Still do?

Prostitution happened then, when the population reached a point. By then con men, ministers, men who claimed they could understand the "voice" of the wind or had been where the sun landed on the flat earth and spoke to it - got the rules for how we must live, that variety of crook was already well established. Of course they were Pagan crooks in the beginning.

What's the difference in them an Pat Robertson "talking to God"? We're so busy getting justice for all that we are overlooking the big picture, maybe too close to the trees to see the forest. The educational institutions are irresponsible for letting this go unchecked.

The sun is male and moon female but they were rolled into one god with a daughter that claimed to be the "son of God" making the Christian Trinity God.

Government involvement, licensing ministers, tax considerations, politicians affirming their faith only empower the crooks, the oldest profession, minister. Priestesses are just more of the same.

I have been a graduate priest of the Akom religion of the Akan people of Ghana for over 10 years. I find this dialogue very interesting.

My first observation - similar to others - is that there has been a tremendous amount of misunderstanding with respect to terminology. The words Paganism, earth religion, Wicca have been used interchangeably. And, I am surprised to that the President of the Chicago Theological Seminary has made this error. For example, the term “earth-religion” has been misunderstood. We all live on Mother Earth so every spiritual path (Christianity, Wicca, Akom, Islam, Ifa) gives reverence to that creation of the Supreme One. Tell me if I am wrong. So, one could argue that to the extent that the practice of Christianity incorporates honor and respect for the planet that would make Christianity an “earth religion”. It strikes me that we have more in common based upon what we practice. It is the labels and diverse interpretations of those labels that divide us.

In Ghana there is a rich spiritual diversity in the practice of Akom. As you travel around you find the same spiritual principal being worshiped under the name of a different diety. But I have never seen people argue about whether their deity or their shrine house is “better”, “more “correct” or the “only way to salvation”. It just does not happen. People are not threatened by the diversity. When we come in contact with another shrine house, we look at what people do – not what they say they do. And if we can respect what they do – e.g. heal people and uphold the community – then we can work with them. It seems to me that this can also be the paradigm upon which people of diverse faiths across the planet can also come together and work together for the betterment of all.

What is the UU denomination several referred to?
Did they mean UCC? They were complimentary and I hope they meant "UCC".

"Paganism has an important role to play in American religious culture as it explicitly regards women as capable of embodying the sacred. It has been my personal experience that conservative Christianity in particular regards all women, regardless of their faith, as vaguely Pagan. Christian conservatives do not value women’s religious leadership as highly as that of males."

Hmm...
Ancient trends and ideological battles?
The battle between Patriarchy vs. Matriarchy? "Sun" vs. "Moon"?

The ancient leadership conflict over the control of reproduction?

Ie: The father or mother having the "right" to control & regulate reproduction? ...Perhaps resulting in how women in conservative societies are often controlled in regards to their reproductive behavior.

Issues of marriage, sexual expression & clothing display, choices of mating and procreation, and how men (and women) castigate (-- ie: impeaching a President because of an infidelity) and try to socially each other in regards to sexual matters... are still powerfully charged community issues.

... due to central issues of control & regulation of reproduction, as well as their impacts upon males, females, individual rights, and community?

These issues permeate cultural history, and reverberate today without often being directly addressed.

m972k

Dear Anonymous:

You are confusing the Middle Ages with Roman Antiquity. You are confusing The Black Plague with all others. That is representative of your intellectual presentations on these blogs. Read the book.

m937k

Like most Europeans
I don't believe in anything spooky or supernatural,
Why should we make something up to believe in?
It is beyond ridiculous.
Most of what believers believe was drilled into
their heads when they were kids.
Its so unecessary and as silly as the idea
of a teapot in orbit around mars.You cant see it
because its invisible.You just have to take it
on faith.
It would be no problem to convince my children
that the invisible teapot exists.And nobody could
prove that it doesn't.

Let's hear it for RICHMOND T. STALLGISS. No where at this or any other forum has a story so real, an everyday happening in all our live, something to identify with, anchored to the substrate of the universe, words escape me to describe this work of extreme intelligence for nothing that can stand in it's shadow has ever been presented for our benefit before. And the sheer logic of "Listen, if you have ears."

Thank you RICHMOND T STALLGISS and may all your snake bites be nothing more than nibbles.

We seem to be a bit off topic here. I am learning alot from the kind pagans among us, but there is some biting occurring as well.

... this reminds me of a story I heard on time, about some ancient nomadic pagans who were wandering in the desert and they came upon a nest of snakes that came out and night and bit them while they were sleeping. Concurrent with their snake bites, they began biting one another in the morning and and arguing bitterly amongst themselves. They blamed one another and their Priestess for their condition.

Their Priestess recognized that the health of the Tribe was being undermined by the biting, but she couldn't herself prevent them from biting each other. The Priestess implored the Deity to intervene with divine assistance and provide a Remedy for the Tribe.

The Deity acquiesced, and instructed the Priestess to hold up a bronze snake-shaped object on a wooden pole (known as The Nehushtan). The Tribe was advised that anyone looking upon the Nehushtan for healing would be healed. Some of the dying *chose* not to look at the Remedy; they were not healed, and died from their wounds.

Moral of the story: Rather than condemn those who do evil, the Deity provides healing to those who would seek it.

Listen, if you have ears.

Funny how the author says Christians undervalue women.

At least wife beating isn't a sanctioned pasttime like in Islam.

Funny how the author says Christians undervalue women.

At least wife beating isn't a sanctioned pasttime like in Islam.

Funny how the author says Christians undervalue women.

At least wife beating isn't a sanctioned pasttime like in Islam.

Yoyo -
Everyone believes in something.

Anonymous
About your pixies and Tinkerbell...
Join the club...you are perfectly entitled
to believe any thing you choose.You don't
to have to explain and justify it,no matter
how ridiculous.And it doesn't have to make sense,
as you can see from the other entries on
these threads.
You can rationalize it though,if you wish,and
throw in a lot of mumbo jumbo and pre-scientific
claptrap and way you go...you gotta religion.
American's these days think people will fall apart unless
they have SOMeThInG to believe in,no matter what.
Better to believe in something really dumb,
than not believe in anything at all.
Its the American way.

Hey, is this the post where everyones bashing Christians? Because I'm IN!!!! I think that they should be forced to wear crosses on their clothes, it's easier to spit on them then...

"The use of She is a device to underline independence from the Judeo-Christian, but still it does not imply a deduction of Wicca."

You need to understand, that in terms of the Great Goddess, this is not simply a reaction to the baggage of Judeo-Christianity, ..it also has much to do with sincerely relating to the Universe as first and foremost a Mother.

The idea that things must be 'deduced' as a basis of 'authority' from which a book of rules follows isn't... how things work for us. You're right that it's a source of theological frustration for those looking to defend the 'authority' of a text.

We have other things to be doing. :)

As a young lady I was raised to believe in Tinkerbell.
Though me friends laughed at me when
I wore my T.B.and star at school,the realization
that they thought I was a little crazy actually helped strengthen my faith.
It also helped that my religion had no church,because as mother said the whole world is our church,especially the bottom of our garden where pixies often gather at midnight.
I've tried many times to observe the midnight frolics in our garden,but the pixies were always ahead of me,and never appeared when I was spying on them.
But of course,common sense tells me that pixies
have good reason to remain unseen.People would
destroy them,just as they did in Ireland hundreds of years ago.
So,out of respect I stopped bothering them.
I don't need to see them,or Tinkerbell.
I mean I know they are there,and that's the main thing.And I know they hear my prayers.

Read about the plague.
The Christians crowded into the churches to escape the plague.
But crowding together caused the disease to rapidly
spread amongst them and decimated the Christian population,in which millions died.
They had far the more casualties than the people
who they prevented from sheltering in the churches because they weren't Christians.

Dear Tarra,

Well said, thoughtful, intelligent, and kind.

As as math and physics oriented person, I take an axiomatic approach to religion, as well as a historical one. I think the Penrose computation, which rejects the hypothesis that the Universe was an accident supports two axioms of Religion:

1.In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.
2.She did this to make an abode for Life.

Please note that this offers no support to historical Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Wicca, or any other particular sect. The use of She is a device to underline independence from the Judeo-Christian, but still it does not imply a deduction of Wicca.

Some ethical conclusions jump out at you.. If we define Good as doing things consistent with these axioms and Evil as doing things counter to them, we can make some ethical statements within this simple system.

That which furthers Life is Good because it it the work of God. So stewardship of the environment which preserves the ability of the Earth to support Life is Good.

That which destroys life is against the work of God. So nuclear war that sterilizes the planet is Evil. Destruction of the ecology is also prima facie Evil in this system.

We are all, in some sense, God's Children as we live together in her abode.

We are all, in some sense, Brothers and Sisters in God. Does the Golden Rule follow from this?

We should avoid the large scale destruction of each other and the unnecessary destruction of other life. This is Evil because it does not further life in general.

We clearly live in a food chain, and life at our level involves eating other life forms, so some use of living things like grains, and meats is consistent with living in God's abode for Life. But we with intelligence should preserve and increase other forms of life, rather than decreasing the possibilities of the future.

Life improves in sophistication by competition. This is a bitter lesson, but one we are forced to live with. But winning should not mean ruthless and utter destruction of other lifeforms. We almost blotted the North American Bison, for example, and we did blot out the passenger pigeons. Extinction is Evil in this system because it means that a life form will not be able to contribute the furtherance of life for the rest of Eternity. It is lost forever. It remains to be seen if intelligence will further the increase of its own life, and other life. If so, it is Good.

Does this lead to eugenics? Not if we avoid substituting our own judgment for God's. Time must be allowed to tell its tale about the living things of today. We must not let our hasty human judgment replace God's judgment in the fullness of time.

That's a bit preliminary, but I find it more interesting than the much more limited set I had to work with in my three decades of Atheism. The Golden Rule then was always vulnerable to the a simple counter assertion by another that he thought that I should serve as a means to his ends; Kant not withstanding. I had no real moral basis then, other than practical (as in “Try and make me, dog breath!”), to object.

I have mentioned this approach on another thread, but I think it bears repetition. In tone, this comes surprisingly close to what you have said, though its assumptions are more reductionist.

In the interests of honesty, I am a practicing Christian, but like Aquinas, I cannot deduce historical Christianity from the Universe itself. He was a lot smarter than I am, so if he couldn't, then I am not surprised that I can't. Roger Penrose makes a convincing argument for non-accidental nature of our Universe, and posits a Creator in response. Still, the exercise of deductive religion remains separate from historical ones, and both remain interesting.

Best of luck in your spiritual journey.

There's a whole lot of drivel goin' on.
Even more than usual.
No wonder America's gone to pot.

Dear Susan,

I agree with you that Pagans have the same rights as anyone else. If there really are more Pagans in the USAF than Jews or Moslems, then there should be a Chaplain for them. I personally support freedom of religion for all people and all religions, and freedom FROM state sponsored religion in any form.

That said, on a historical point, the premise you stipulated that early Christianity spread by violence is wrong.

“Paganism is very poorly understood. It is sometimes called “the Old Religion” as it claims to be a revival of indigenous religious traditions violently suppressed by Christianity as it spread throughout Europe.”

Rodney Stark, a research sociologist, advanced a different hypothesis that Christian charity was actually responsible. In his excellent quantitative sociology study “The Rise of Christianity” he tells us history records that the Christians nursed each other in repeated plagues, while the ancient Pagans abandoned each other out of fear more often. The physicians he consulted about the study indicated that this might have been the difference between a twenty percent death rate for Christians, versus an eighty percent one for those who were abandoned. So as each succeeding generation of Romans experienced plagues, more Christians survived to parent the next generation. Thus while the growth in Christianity was very rapid, it was in no way militant.

Actually, early Christians suffered horrible and violent persecutions at the hands of Imperial Rome and their Jewish brothers. For example, Saul of Tarsus, who famously converted into Paul the apostle, confesses to having been an anti-Christian death squad member before his conversion, and many Christians were murdered in the Roman arenas.

Another question is how did St. Patrick singlehandedly conquered the fearsome Celts of Ireland? Clearly not by violence. He converted them by presenting a theology that answered unresolved questions they had.

Later, when Christianity became the state religion it was corrupted by the necessity to serve the interests of the state, as all state religions are. But even then, it was never worse than what had come before. Just no better.

I'm not suffering one way or the other. I wonder if Pagans are recognized by the government the way others are recognized. I don't care much but your competition for the "worship/sacrifice" dollar no doubt will care. If they're smart, they will let you "cash in" too. Time will tell.

You guessed correctly about me. I think the lot of you, all religions are a pack of dips, except for ministers who are pursuing careers like, engineers, doctors and lawyers. Anyone dumb enough to give you money deserves the financial loss. Hey, have a go at it but don't tell me you actually believe any of the nonsense because I won't believe you.

Are the "hungries" actually brought on by "evil" spirits? Yeah, booze makes people hungry sometimes but frosted flakes is rarely the food of choice for them.

"Just one simple question. Do you enjoy the TAX breaks that other faiths get? That will have more to do with your success than any other single thing, in my opinion of course.

Once is enough to answer."

I'll answer, Bgone:

Again.

Sometimes. If we rearrange our practices enough, oftentimes, in order to meet requirements imposed by someone else's idea of 'real religion.'

If you're suffering cause the occasional Pagan group doesn't pay taxes on a non-commercial *barn,* then it's possible your concern is misplaced.

" BGone:

If Pagans get chaplains I insist on Lucifer worshipers getting them too. After all, Lucifer is a REAL God or at least wanted to be God."

This, frankly, would be their business. Nothing to do with us.

Though some might tell you differently in an attempt to hurt us.

terra,

Just one simple question. Do you enjoy the TAX breaks that other faiths get? That will have more to do with your success than any other single thing, in my opinion of course.

Once is enough to answer.

oh gosh as much as I posted to begin with it had to double..I am so sorry!

I hope it was worth reading the first time.
terra

Ok...I am going to share some info.

Paganism is an umbrella term that shelters earth centered religions. Wicca tends to be the largest of those Pagan religions, but certainly not the only one. There is a connecting core to all Pagan religions...we are seperate but joined, like bonfires on mountaintops...we know others are out there, and we share the message. We may build the fire useing different woods...but the wood is laid the same, for the same reason.

I was initiated in 1977, and since then have earned my chops to be called Lady. I am a co leader of a Temple and an Elder in a Wiccan Church, I also am the acting Lady of our Tradition, I also teach those who come to me.

As far as laws...we have them. Here are some common sence ones that are more or less universal to Wiccans and my Trad follows.They are part of what are called Ordains.These are not the only ones, we also have Principles and each trad may have additional laws:These are well written about.

Personal Standards:
· Follow an ethical creed, the Rede being one example.
· If you know our ethical standard is being breached, you must work strongly to correct the situation.
· Watch, Listen, and withhold judgment; in debate, let your silence be long, your thoughts be clear, and your words carefully chosen.
· Never boast, threaten, or speak ill of anyone.
· Be truthful always, save when speaking would lead to a great harm
· Keep clean your body, your clothes and your house. You are the creation of the Gods and co-creator of your world. Be orderly and honor what you have been given.
· Should you take a task upon yourself, work hard and well to accomplish it properly and in good time.
Responsibilities with Others:
· Revere, honor, tend and heal the Earth
· Of that which you grow, make, or use, let as much as possible return to the Earth as an offering to Her, as a way to nourish the cycle of life.
· Do not judge those of others paths, instead offer them love and aid. Be hospitable to others; see the gods in all you meet. But remember that not all know the God/dess. Beware of those who would do you harm.
· Do not steal from human, animal, or spirit; if you have needs you cannot meet, turn to our community.
· Offer friendship and hospitality to those who visit among you.
· You shall never handfast (wed) someone you do not love.
· Honor the relationships and commitments of others, and do not couple together if it will (or could) cause pain to another. Respect the oaths you have made and that others have sworn to.
· Raise your children with kindness; feed, clothe, and house them as well as you can. Show them love and affection; teach them strength and wisdom.
· You may not own slaves, or willingly be part of any nation, community, or organization, which allows this practice.
· Deal fairly and honestly in all your transactions with others, following the letter and spirit of any contract you agree to, either in writing or verbally.
----------
There are many other laws, some about leadership...I will say that Honor and knowledge are the most important qualities of a Wiccan leader. And if a Priest or Priestess is found to have broken the ordains or trad laws, they can be shunned. If a High Priest or Priestess is found to break the laws, they are replaced. There is no hideing wrong doing... what happens to one person in one group affects the whole of the community. It can not be allowed to be condoned.

There are rules for what we can ask money for...I teach and like most Wiccan teachers, give of my knowledge and time for the good of the Community. Though it is right to charge if you want, and some do.

A person who has gone through their first degree training and passed the course, they are a first degree Priest or Priestess... they have certain responcibilities within the community and their own trad. They can be assistants to aid those of a higher degree, think of it as an apprenticship,it is a complicated, hierarchal training. This takes at least a year. In my trad. a person can stop there and not go further unless they have been called to the Priesthood. In 8 to ten years you may be a member of the Priesthood.

As far as Chaplain training...we have seminaries.One of which:

http://www.cherryhillseminary.org/

While I have not been to a Pagan seminary, I have taken ministerial intensives by Patrick McCollum who is an instructor of CherryHill Seminary and by Selena Fox the HPs of Circle Sanctuary.Both of these people were highly trained...Patrick is a Pagan Chaplain in the California prison system as well as affiliated with Lady Liberty League. I am an Elder in his Wiccan Church.

If a Wiccan has gained their third degree and wishes to go on to a Mundain degrees, then they can, and many do, some as part of their third degree committment.

A student gains their first degree, and if she wants to become a Wiccan Hps then she has to go through the trad training for second degree, then third. In my trad if a second degree wishes to start her own group, she can hive off then (while under the "eye" of her Hps), while still furthering her third degree training. Once she is Third then she is independent of all others.

We do not send fluff out to the Community, we send "prepared persons".

Because of the Rede;
An harm none, do what ye will, has been so misconstrued that people think it means what ever you whim, as long as you harm none.

In Wicca nothing is ever as it seems...remember it is a Mystery religion. Will, means just that...what is your Will. What is the purpose of your life? What is your srength? It also means that if you are true to your truth, you can not harm anyone. The big thing is...to discover what is ego and what is your true Will.

Wicca is very moral.It may not be the same kind of morality as some have. In my trad. our Hp is gay, he is loved, respected, and in our lights, moral. he is the most balanced fair minded man I know. Sex is not to be made ugly and dirty, it is a gift of the life force and so part of the sacred. Respecting the life force in all life and doing what creates harmony and balance is what we strive for. Forceing anyone to have sex is a henious crime...breaking your oath of honor to anyone is breaking the Rede. Sex is good, breaking an oath of marriage is not. Nothing is cut and dried, our laws have to be known and understood.

terra

Ok...I am going to share some info.

Paganism is an umbrella term that shelters earth centered religions. Wicca tends to be the largest of those Pagan religions, but certainly not the only one. There is a connecting core to all Pagan religions...we are seperate but joined, like bonfires on mountaintops...we know others are out there, and we share the message. We may build the fire useing different woods...but the wood is laid the same, for the same reason.

I was initiated in 1977, and since then have earned my chops to be called Lady. I am a co leader of a Temple and an Elder in a Wiccan Church, I also am the acting Lady of our Tradition, I also teach those who come to me.

As far as laws...we have them. Here are some common sence ones that are more or less universal to Wiccans and my Trad follows.They are part of what are called Ordains.These are not the only ones, we also have Principles and each trad may have additional laws:These are well written about.

Personal Standards:
· Follow an ethical creed, the Rede being one example.
· If you know our ethical standard is being breached, you must work strongly to correct the situation.
· Watch, Listen, and withhold judgment; in debate, let your silence be long, your thoughts be clear, and your words carefully chosen.
· Never boast, threaten, or speak ill of anyone.
· Be truthful always, save when speaking would lead to a great harm
· Keep clean your body, your clothes and your house. You are the creation of the Gods and co-creator of your world. Be orderly and honor what you have been given.
· Should you take a task upon yourself, work hard and well to accomplish it properly and in good time.
Responsibilities with Others:
· Revere, honor, tend and heal the Earth
· Of that which you grow, make, or use, let as much as possible return to the Earth as an offering to Her, as a way to nourish the cycle of life.
· Do not judge those of others paths, instead offer them love and aid. Be hospitable to others; see the gods in all you meet. But remember that not all know the God/dess. Beware of those who would do you harm.
· Do not steal from human, animal, or spirit; if you have needs you cannot meet, turn to our community.
· Offer friendship and hospitality to those who visit among you.
· You shall never handfast (wed) someone you do not love.
· Honor the relationships and commitments of others, and do not couple together if it will (or could) cause pain to another. Respect the oaths you have made and that others have sworn to.
· Raise your children with kindness; feed, clothe, and house them as well as you can. Show them love and affection; teach them strength and wisdom.
· You may not own slaves, or willingly be part of any nation, community, or organization, which allows this practice.
· Deal fairly and honestly in all your transactions with others, following the letter and spirit of any contract you agree to, either in writing or verbally.
----------
There are many other laws, some about leadership...I will say that Honor and knowledge are the most important qualities of a Wiccan leader. And if a Priest or Priestess is found to have broken the ordains or trad laws, they can be shunned. If a High Priest or Priestess is found to break the laws, they are replaced. There is no hideing wrong doing... what happens to one person in one group affects the whole of the community. It can not be allowed to be condoned.

There are rules for what we can ask money for...I teach and like most Wiccan teachers, give of my knowledge and time for the good of the Community. Though it is right to charge if you want, and some do.

A person who has gone through their first degree training and passed the course, they are a first degree Priest or Priestess... they have certain responcibilities within the community and their own trad. They can be assistants to aid those of a higher degree, think of it as an apprenticship,it is a complicated, hierarchal training. This takes at least a year. In my trad. a person can stop there and not go further unless they have been called to the Priesthood. In 8 to ten years you may be a member of the Priesthood.

As far as Chaplain training...we have seminaries.One of which:

http://www.cherryhillseminary.org/

While I have not been to a Pagan seminary, I have taken ministerial intensives by Patrick McCollum who is an instructor of CherryHill Seminary and by Selena Fox the HPs of Circle Sanctuary.Both of these people were highly trained...Patrick is a Pagan Chaplain in the California prison system as well as affiliated with Lady Liberty League. I am an Elder in his Wiccan Church.

If a Wiccan has gained their third degree and wishes to go on to a Mundain degrees, then they can, and many do, some as part of their third degree committment.

A student gains their first degree, and if she wants to become a Wiccan Hps then she has to go through the trad training for second degree, then third. In my trad if a second degree wishes to start her own group, she can hive off then (while under the "eye" of her Hps), while still furthering her third degree training. Once she is Third then she is independent of all others.

We do not send fluff out to the Community, we send "prepared persons".

Because of the Rede;
An harm none, do what ye will, has been so misconstrued that people think it means what ever you whim, as long as you harm none.

In Wicca nothing is ever as it seems...remember it is a Mystery religion. Will, means just that...what is your Will. What is the purpose of your life? What is your srength? It also means that if you are true to your truth, you can not harm anyone. The big thing is...to discover what is ego and what is your true Will.

Wicca is very moral.It may not be the same kind of morality as some have. In my trad. our Hp is gay, he is loved, respected, and in our lights, moral. he is the most balanced fair minded man I know. Sex is not to be made ugly and dirty, it is a gift of the life force and so part of the sacred. Respecting the life force in all life and doing what creates harmony and balance is what we strive for. Forceing anyone to have sex is a henious crime...breaking your oath of honor to anyone is breaking the Rede. Sex is good, breaking an oath of marriage is not. Nothing is cut and dried, our laws have to be known and understood.

terra

If Pagans get chaplains I insist on Lucifer worshipers getting them too. After all, Lucifer is a REAL God or at least wanted to be God.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul directs us to how to save our souls by worshiping the God that won the big fight for control of heaven. Saying Michael won is just so much malicious propaganda.

Lucifer worshipers unite!!!!! We need chaplains too. Our boys and girls must not go without spiritual guidance as they kill, sorry, inflict casualties on our enemies. Remember what Jesus, the son of Lucifer said, "love your enemies" so always cry out "I love you" before you shoot them. Adding, "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" is hogwash.

Rachel, my best hopes for your husband's safety and health.

" Gaby:

The more I am reading these blogs, the more I'm becoming convinced that non-Pagans are confusing "pagan" with "heathen".

It would be nice, if this board discussion helps to educate the general public about Paganism and its diverse sub-divisions."

Well, that's *ambitious.* :) The Heathens, though, really seem to have their act together on representing their specific belief system, which has really taken on a character of its own, ...especially where they differ from 'mainstream' Neopaganism, (They've branched off somewhat from the movement at large, ...but they're always welcome at the 'family reunions.' :) ) They're smaller in numbers, but hopefully shouldn't have the troubles Wiccans have had in getting their faith recognized by the military, they're a lot more specific.

I am a sometimes atheist, sometimes pagan who grew up in a Catholic household. It seems to me that Christianity is more suited to the military than is Pagan religion...after all most pagan sects start with the axiom "first do no harm". They continue w/the ideal of interacting with the world harmoniously. Not so Christians and Muslims and other monotheistic religions. They condemn those that don't adhere to their god and their practice. When I feel spiritual I turn pagan for this reason.

~Dat

Chill out, people... Happy Birthday, USA!

It is absolutely ridiculous that there are so many closed-minded Americans today. You all make me sick. If you believe in these things, maybe YOU are the one that shouldn't be here...maybe YOU are the one that should learn a new language and go somewhere else like Rome b/c this is not the place where YOU belong. Americans aren't supposed to be prejudice against others (unless they're petofilic bastards). The United States of America is a country built on religous freedom for goodness sake. YOU should be ashamed of yourself. I am a proud American Agnostic. To say that Agnostics and atheist should die b/c we don't believe in you're beliefs is ignorant and I refuse to sit by and watch it happen...whoever says that people should die - not b/c of something they did, but because of a dislike - are the same people who have voted for Bush AND are the same S.O.B.'s who disgrace my beloved USA. My Husband is a corporal in the US army (101st Airborne Assault) and all YOU are doing is spitting in his face b/c he is Pagan. What I'm hearing from your mouth is that my Partner in life is unfit to serve you because of religous belief.

~proud wife of the Army

P.S. Pack your bags for a one-way trip to Rome b/c we don't want you here

Michael, there exist many of us Christians who can comfortably say that we don't know what's best for everyone. I for one, while very naive about Wicca and Paganism, am not at all upset with the notion that Wiccans and their spiritual path should be respected. The Christian path I have chosen leads me toward something I cherish. Possibly other paths would also lead me there. It is quite likely that others who find my way impassable arrive at the same place by a route I could not navigate. The details of how we travel are not nearly as important as the idea that we are in motion.

One thing I find amusing is that one of our fellows in this discussion suggested that "to invite Wiccan or Pagan chaplains would institutionalize an 'ishy' spirituality that would provide little value in the military."

I can only suppose that he believes that the dogmatically rigid military is more comfortable with the unnecessary rigidity some Christians try to impose on the Lord of the universe. When will we ever learn?

Deborah:

You, my dear, are a twit!!!!

This has been wonderfully informative. Some very educated folks who have taken the time to try to educate people who have their fingers in their ears. By whatever name you call them, pagans as a whole are not the bloodthirsty monsters that have systematically killed any who did not believe in the same system as their own.

I would rather be hung for a tree-hugger any day than to step inside a church where there is only lip service paid to the book that they are supposed to be living their lives by.

Voting for a Pagan. Oh yes, I think I would be inclined to that, if they showed that they were intelligent, had common sense and could act in a way that truly was beneficial to the majority instead of the richest.

This has been wonderfully informative. Some very educated folks who have taken the time to try to educate people who have their fingers in their ears. By whatever name you call them, pagans as a whole are not the bloodthirsty monsters that have systematically killed any who did not believe in the same system as their own.

I would rather be hung for a tree-hugger any day than to step inside a church where there is only lip service paid to the book that they are supposed to be living their lives by.

Voting for a Pagan. Oh yes, I think I would be inclined to that, if they showed that they were intelligent, had common sense and could act in a way that truly was beneficial to the majority instead of the richest.

The more I am reading these blogs, the more I'm becoming convinced that non-Pagans are confusing "pagan" with "heathen".

It would be nice, if this board discussion helps to educate the general public about Paganism and its diverse sub-divisions.

Deborah-

By the Goddess, did you read any of the posts above?

1. Satan is a Christian god, not a Pagan god.

2. What on earth did we swear not to do and are now doing it?

3. Witchcraft is not a religion, Wicca is. Witchcraft is a CRAFT.

4. What values have we turned upside down?

It is rare to find so many misperceptions and falsehoods in only five sentences.

Now, Wiccans who call themselves witches want witchcraft to be considered as a religion. This is the end of the world as we know it. When evil is called good and good evil, what is the world to become. All values are turned upside down.
If seeing horrible creatures and doing things you swore you would never do (because you knew it was wicked) is good, well satan did a good job!

....And you are a Reverend???? President of Chicago Theological Seminary. That's a shame. I am speechless.

Anonymous,
nice to hear that you would kill me anytime for not believing in your personal rubbish. What a religion! That's the spirit of the 9/11 guys! It invokes strong pessimism in the future of mankind to have to read such dribble.

"Atheists,agnostics and other people who reject gods are the real infidels,and deserve to be blown up
for denying belief in the afterlife."

Seriously? It's people like this that make me refuse to publicly call myself a Christian, despite my the fact that would best characterize my theology.

How can you possibly ordain killing people and claim to worship a God of Love? It is you who are the infidel. You should reread the book you claim to hold as the Word of God.

My husband is in the army and is also a proud pagan. He is a “trigger monkey" - an affectionate name for infantry men. When I asked him about this issue he answered, "Well in a combat unit, religion of the man next to you is not important. Its good that the military wants ministers to help pagans in troubled times but my unit", he says with great pride, "does not need a Chaplin to give me strength. Every man in my chalk will lead me and I them through troubled times."

Muslims should stop blowing us up.
After all,we are religious too.We are not infidels.
Atheists,agnostics and other people who reject gods are the real infidels,and deserve to be blown up
for denying belief in the afterlife.

Oh me oh my miss Susan. So it's OK for Pagans to go on and worship those "known false" gods? Pardon your contemporaries while they condemn them to hell.

Speaking of false gods, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul would lead us to believe your "one true" God is just one of their many gods. That would be the "sun god" that Moses spoke to and got his "marching orders" from.

Since it's chaplains we're talking about we should pay special attention to passover. You know, when God got directly involved in the "just cause" and whacked the crown prince of Egypt. Now if only W had that kind of influence with the sun, Saddam would have been terminated without military involvement in Iraq. We got to be "more careful" about the gods we worship. Don't you think?

Looks to me like we need a new president that's in the "favor of the gods" all of them and not just the "sun god" that clearly fails to deliver the goods. Actually I'm being a little unfair with that. Mr Bush is clearly in the "favor of the *representatives* of the sun god." Woe be it to those who chose unreliable gods.

I trust you are using the hoax buster interpretation of the Bible in your classrooms now that you know. Ignorant clergy is the last thing we need at a time when God is threatening to destroy the world if we don't get rid of all but Islamic chaplains. The nerve of Pagans wanting equal rights.

Once again, the christians posting have nothing fair or good to say about any other religion - "we know best" is the attitude? Pathetic.

Go wiccans! I'd vote for a wiccan over a christian ANY VOTING DAY!!! (and I'm an atheist!)

As a young lady I was raised to believe in Tinkerbell.
Though me friends laughed at me when
I wore my T.B.and star at school,the realization
that they thought I was a little crazy actually helped strengthen my faith.
It also helped that my religion had no church,because as mother said the whole world is our church,especially the bottom of our garden where pixies often gather at midnight.
I've tried many times to observe the midnight frolics in our garden,but the pixies were always ahead of me,and never appeared when I was spying on them.
But of course,common sense tells me that pixies
have good reason to remain unseen.People would
destroy them,just as they did in Ireland hundreds of years ago.
So,out of respect I stopped bothering them.
I don't need to see them,or Tinkerbell.
I mean I know they are there,and that's the main thing.And I know they hear my prayers.

Posted July 6, 2007 12:35 PM

Mr. Stallgiss,
I tried responding to this yesterday...maybe it will work today:

What I was trying to say is that Pagans are not *necessarily* respectful, although many are. There's nothing *inherent* about paganism that makes them *more* respectful of women and minorities, and pagans are not uniquely immune to being disrespecful.

Denise: It would be wrong to say that Pagans of any flavor are infallible. This isn't possible, and all religions have their share of idiots; however, in my experiences in a variety of Pagan communities I haven't seen the level of rudeness and disrespect that exists in the general population.

From what I can tell, the Pagans/pagans do not have *any* formal belief requirements, so really, there is no basis within paganism to *tell* someone that they are doing something "wrong" if they disrespect others. It's all personal opinion, and anything goes, even interpersonal disrespect if that's what somone Wills. Yes?

Denise: I think you are spliting hairs here and still not getting the concept of the unbrella term "Pagan", but Mr. Chase has already explained it and very well at that. I will add there are few, if any, Pagans that identify themselves as simply "Pagan" because there is no way to practice "Pagan" so they are always associated with a particular Pagan religion and that religion provides them with the knowledge they need to practice it correctly. It would be like saying you are "Abrahamic", there's no way to practice "Abrahamic" and so you will choose one of the flavors of "Abrahamic" which will give you the knowledge to practice that religion.

Here's a polity and an authority question: What are the standards for calling somone Pagan or pagan? Who gets to decide? Can a Christian correctly claim to be also a Pagan? How can anyone tell who is and isn't a Pagan/pagan? If I tell you I'm a pagan, do automatically I get to decide who else is a pagan?

Denise: Well, considering that the word Pagan originally meant a person who wasn't in the Roman army; then it meant a country-deweller ie: a hick, then the Roman Catholic Church decided it was going to mean a person who didn't adhere to one of the J-C-I traditions. You tell me who gets to decide? It seems to me that your people did.
If you tell me you are a Pagan, then I get to question you about your beliefs. If it turns out that your beliefs don't reflect the beliefs of any of the Pagan religions, you aren't Pagan and will look like a fool to everyone around you by calling yourself one.

You (plural) have no pope, and everyone gets to be a priest/priestess if they so desire.

Denise: We need to back up here and establish a correct definition of "priest/priestess" in a Wiccan context, and I say Wiccan context because not all Pagan religions refer to their clergy by those titles. In Wicca, it is our religious belief every human being has an inherent connection with the Divine and requires no mediator. Each person in their private religious observances can serve as their own priest or priestess. However, this doesn't make them qualified to take on the responsibilities of a High Priestess or a High Priest nor can they to use that title until they've earned it. These people go through years of training within a specific Wiccan tradition. Btw, it is the High Priestesses and High Priests who play a role equivalent to that of a Priest, Minister or Pastor in Christianity.

This polity is really "ishy." The military would not go for anybody believing, you know, whatever. They have standards and practices that people *follow*. Pagan Clergy would have to be *defined* somehow. As far as I understand, paganism is not a coherent belief system that would require a centrally trained practitioner to administer.

Denise: No, it isn't and as Mr. Chase has already posted neither is the Abrahamic traditions, but under the Abrahamic umbrella are coherent systems. Under the "Pagan" umbrella are many, many coherent systems.

Everyone in the military could, if they wanted, become the priest or priestess of their own personal pagan belief system without help from pagan 'clergy'

Denise: No, they can't.

Perhaps someone here can coherently describe the functions of a Pagan military chaplain. Would they be required to have any particular training? How would this Pagan Chaplain training *not* convey a *particular* (quasi-orthodox) version of Paganism.

Denise: Actually, this is possible. A Pagan cleric would have to be versed in a variety of Pagan religions, which isn't that hard as most Pagans are very literate when it comes to other forms of belief, Pagan or not. Mr. Chase also gave one example of a common thread that runs through Pagan religion; there are others. I can say that as a Wiccan I wouldn't have a problem ministering adherents of other Pagan religions because we share enough in common and I have a working understanding of those other religions.

I did a google search on UU chaplains and we already have those. So why now are we debating a need for pagan chaplains? Can't the UUs perform that ministry role to our uniformed pagan brethren and sisteren?
After further reflection on the essay, I observe that the thrust of Thistlewaite's answer seems to be less "how do we minister to the pagans in military" and more of "how do we use the military chaplain system to legitimize an as yet inchoate belief system that tends to respects female clergy."
I personally feel that the spiritual needs of pagans should be fulfilled, but I claim that this can be done through existing chaplains, such as UU chaplains

Denise: Why should there be Catholic priests, Baptist ministers or Lutheran Pastors to administer to their followers? Why can't they just be ministered to by UU clergy or how about a Jewish Rabbi or an Islamic Iman, it's close enough; all three are branches on the same tree, right.

Mr. Chase,
Very well said. Yesterday I tried to post a very similiar explanation, but some reason it didn't make it. Maybe my response was too long.
Thanks again.

Christophere responds:

Mr. Stallgiss offers little evidence outside of repeating one point again and again, so there is no need to treat his entry as a whole. To begin with. "Paganism" is an umbrella term, like "Abrahamic" or "Dharmic." Abrahamic worshippers don't have an interreligious orthodoxy either, so there is no Abrahamic basis for "correcting error" among these similarly structured but competing religions. And if Mr. Stallgiss thinks that simply having a concept of "orthodoxy" is sufficient to deal with problems, then he might have trouble explaining Jonestown, Waco, the Fourth Crusade (Christian on Christian violence), or explaining away the accusations of "Deicide" against Jews found in the Gospels of Matthew and John.

I mean, if there's one thing I can say to those dudes that come get me up out of much-needed rest to try and stress me out about death before I had my coffee, it's this:

Dude.

We're OK.

OK?

Ok, taking this as fairly related, take this response in the spirit of understanding offered:

"The Christian orthodoxy is predicated on the understanding of people as always imperfect -- always "falling short of the glory of God""

We think it's silly to invent a 'perfect glory' and smack ourselves and each other around for 'falling short of 'God'' when it would appear this is no good reason to be a 'monkey.' :)

We may see 'God' in a buttercup or a tropical weather system: This does not make us inelegant buttercups or tragically-inadequate tropical weather systems.

" and always tending to focus on ourselves and our own power rather than depending on the greatness and power of Hashem alone."

Who... apparently decided to give you 'power' to enforce obedience, but not perform actions for which you might be accountable for according to your faculties?

" In order to restore right relationship with God,"

Which would resemble something other than life and harmony?

"people have to first establish sufficient self-understanding to recognize and confess our own frailty and utter dependence on the Creater God for all things."

And this would accomplish something? I don't get it. If we're dependent upon a Creator God for all things, wouldn't that mean ...umm, apart from helplessness, some kind of care packages, apart from, say, a fertile planet we could all be getting along fine on if we weren't fighting about God and Chosen People and Capitalism?

When I understand myself, I don't find that the Universe gives me a living. I find I'm one of many people living together.

"Secondly, as soon as we recognize our own dependence on God, God reassures us with his covenants and assures us of forgiveness and salvation by the example of Yeshuah's anointing."

Forgiveness for what?

Salvation from what?

I see apparently I'm now supposed to be helpless, dependent, now condemned, and apparently doomed, unless someone got oil dripped on em. And I just got here. Whoa.

"As we begin to live in God's presence, God fills us up with the Ruah to sustain us."

This would start sometime other than being in the universe, and full of rue or something... which supposedly sustains us....

"That's the Christian Orthodoxy in words you might understand. Christian Orthodoxy has nothing to do with justifying our own behaviors or expressing scorn against other people. In fact we are commanded to love one another and even to love people we are tempted to think of as enemies."

Even if apparently they're helpless, scorned, damned, and doomed from the get-go.

Just wondering, here.

On a good day, presuming all's in order.

Doesn't that just put you right back on Earth where the Pagans live?

What's with all that fuss?

There's more and better, without any idea you're starting behind the 8-ball.

Mr. Stallgiss wrote:

"Pagans as a group don't have an orthodoxy, so there is no "pagan" basis for correcting error or ensuring respect for women and minorities."

Christopher responds:

Mr. Stallgiss offers little evidence outside of repeating one point again and again, so there is no need to treat his entry as a whole. To begin with. "Paganism" is an umbrella term, like "Abrahamic" or "Dharmic." Abrahamic worshippers don't have an interreligious orthodoxy either, so there is no Abrahamic basis for "correcting error" among these similarly structured but competing religions. And if Mr. Stallgiss thinks that simply having a concept of "orthodoxy" is sufficient to deal with problems, then he might have trouble explaining Jonestown, Waco, the Fourth Crusade (Christian on Christian violence), or explaining away the accusations of "Deicide" against Jews found in the Gospels of Matthew and John.

What Mr. Stallgiss has completely missed is that Pagan traditions, much like Hinduism and Judaism, are ORTHOPRAXIC traditions, not orthodoxic. As in other orthopraxic traditions, the correctness of one's practice has to do with fidelity of practice. And just as neither Judaism nor Hinduism are known for producing mass murderers for lack of orthodoxy, so Mr. Stallgiss is unlikely to find sociopaths existing in contemporary Paganism by virtue of its orthopraxy (rather than orthodoxy).

Since modern Pagan traditions happen to all share a common belief that all life is interrelated and interdependent, this fact serves as a common ethical basis for Pagan religious action in the world. If only Mr. Stallgiss had bothered to research the many expressions of Pagan religious ethics, from ancient Aristotlian "eudaimonia" to the modern Wiccan Rede, he would find a devotion to virtue, as well as the public and societal good as a fundamental thread linking Pagan ethical expression past and present.

Richmond: (pardon me getting back so late, Gods know I'm usually the outside view, here, not representing the topic in question. :) )

""The idea that you need an "orthodoxy" to respect people is *your* religious belief, sir, not ours."

What I was trying to say is that Pagans are not *necessarily* respectful, although many are. There's nothing *inherent* about paganism that makes them *more* respectful of women and minorities, and pagans are not uniquely immune to being disrespecful"

No. You're correct here. Kinda. Where you lack understanding is the idea of 'necessarily.'

There *is* in fact something *inherent* about Paganism that makes us more respectful of women and minorities.

Thou art God/dess.

But then we don't fear Gods, either. :)

I'm new to this conversation and hope to not step on any toes.

I'm also new to seeing a conversation like this take place online in such an intelligent, civilised and polite fashion.

I'm a Wiccan High Priest with over 40 years in the Craft. My best and oldest friend is a born-again Christian. We have long respected each other's choices and I know I wish there was more mutual understanding on matters of faith.

This online conversation is an undiscovered jewel.

It does not matter who I agree or disagree with, everyone on this site is respectful and writes intelligently.

What a relief.

Thank you all.

Denise... I didn't say Wiccans don't have any orthodoxy, I said Pagans don't. You yourself made this P-W distinction and also made mention of the wide variety of belief systems that "paganism" encompasses. A belief system that with such a wide variety of conflicting orthodoxies is no "system" at all.

Paganplace... I didn't call you 'raving hedonists' ... I didn't say I 'hate gays'... I didn't say Christians are perfect or that it's right for Christians to murder in the name of God. I respectfully submit that perhaps you are seeing scorn from me where there is none. I am your fellow traveller in the search for truth, and I feel that Christianity has a lot of positive things to offer people. The Crusades, IMHO, were not the natural result of the evilness of Christian doctrine but were the product of the politics of the time period.

Most Christians I know are acutely aware of the terrible injustices committed in the name of their religion, and most Christians would be the first to agree that killing in the name of any religion is wrong. Jerry Falwell does not represent real Christianity. CS Lewis, maybe.

The Christian orthodoxy is predicated on the understanding of people as always imperfect -- always "falling short of the glory of God" and always tending to focus on ourselves and our own power rather than depending on the greatness and power of Hashem alone. In order to restore right relationship with God, people have to first establish sufficient self-understanding to recognize and confess our own frailty and utter dependence on the Creater God for all things. Secondly, as soon as we recognize our own dependence on God, God reassures us with his covenants and assures us of forgiveness and salvation by the example of Yeshuah's anointing. As we begin to live in God's presence, God fills us up with the Ruah to sustain us. That's the Christian Orthodoxy in words you might understand. Christian Orthodoxy has nothing to do with justifying our own behaviors or expressing scorn against other people. In fact we are commanded to love one another and even to love people we are tempted to think of as enemies.

Can we please differentiate between Pagan and Wiccan? They are NOT the same, and a person can be Pagan without being Wiccan, or vice versa, I suppose, although I'm having a hard time making sense of a Wiccan who isn't also included in the much broader category of Paganism. I'm both, and the high priestess of my coven.

I don't have any expectations that someone who is Pagan would (necessarily) share the same morals, values, orthodoxy, etc. as I and my brothers and sisters in the craft. That doesn't negate those values and morals for me or other Wiccans who follow our particular tradition.

I hold my students and coveners to certain standards, i.e. orthodoxy, just as the elders who trained me held me to those standards. The biggest difference between Christian and Wiccan clergy in my view, is that the Wiccans I know wouldn't tolerate misbehavior or illegal behavior and would likely take the actions they found necessary to stop it.

If my coveners found out I were doing something wrong, at a minimum, they'd leave my coven and stop associating with me. I hope and believe that they'd confront me and challenge me to stop doing whatever-it-was, and if I were causing harm to others, that they'd do whatever was necessary to prevent me from doing any more harm.

When Catholic clergy preyed on children, it continued for generations and was covered up by their hierarchy. I won't claim that no Wiccan has ever abused a child, but when it happens among us, *somebody* takes a stand, says, 'this is wrong' and does what needs to be done to put a stop to it.

We wouldn't continue to allow an abuser access to children, and we don't tolerate what we view to be wrong. We see ourselves as personally responsible, and act to stop the wrong-doer and protect the innocent.

I think I could do a good job as a military chaplain, and certainly know other elders in my tradition and our larger Pagan community who could do an even better job than I could. We could meet the needs of Pagans of many different practices, although we'd be more connected with Wiccans and most connected to those who followed the same traditions as ours. Just like a Southern Baptist chaplain could provide support to all denominations of Christians, and would be even better working with Missionary or First Baptists, and best of all with other Southern Baptists.

Above "Anonymous" comment was me. Oops. Forgot to sign in.

-RT

"The idea that you need an "orthodoxy" to respect people is *your* religious belief, sir, not ours."
What I was trying to say is that Pagans are not *necessarily* respectful, although many are. There's nothing *inherent* about paganism that makes them *more* respectful of women and minorities, and pagans are not uniquely immune to being disrespecful.

If you really want to discuss this, the 'respect one another' idea *is* an *orthodox belief* that I try to practice as a Christian. The word 'orthodox' simply means 'correct teaching' and it is a formal statement of something people should do.

From what I can tell, the Pagans/pagans do not have *any* formal belief requirements, so really, there is no basis within paganism to *tell* someone that they are doing something "wrong" if they disrespect others. It's all personal opinion, and anything goes, even interpersonal disrespect if that's what somone Wills. Yes?

Not all Christians live up to their teachings(i.e.., orthopraxy) but at least we have a way to measure this (i.e. orthodoxy). Do Pagans have any common, universally understood understanding and speaking (ortho-doxy) about what is right and wrong? If not then there is no "pagan" basis for correcting error, which is what I was saying before.

"not anyone in Africa you decide to call 'pagan.'"

Here's a polity and an authority question: What are the standards for calling somone Pagan or pagan? Who gets to decide? Can a Christian correctly claim to be also a Pagan? How can anyone tell who is and isn't a Pagan/pagan? If I tell you I'm a pagan, do automatically I get to decide who else is a pagan? You (plural) have no pope, and everyone gets to be a priest/priestess if they so desire. This polity is really "ishy." The military would not go for anybody believing, you know, whatever. They have standards and practices that people *follow*. Pagan Clergy would have to be *defined* somehow.

As far as I understand, paganism is not a coherent belief system that would require a centrally trained practitioner to administer. Everyone in the military could, if they wanted, become the priest or priestess of their own personal pagan belief system without help from pagan 'clergy'

Perhaps someone here can coherently describe the functions of a Pagan military chaplain. Would they be required to have any particular training? How would this Pagan Chaplain training *not* convey a *particular* (quasi-orthodox) version of Paganism.

I did a google search on UU chaplains and we already have those. So why now are we debating a need for pagan chaplains? Can't the UUs perform that ministry role to our uniformed pagan brethren and sisteren?

After further reflection on the essay, I observe that the thrust of Thistlewaite's answer seems to be less "how do we minister to the pagans in military" and more of "how do we use the military chaplain system to legitimize an as yet inchoate belief system that tends to respects female clergy."

I personally feel that the spiritual needs of pagans should be fulfilled, but I claim that this can be done through existing chaplains, such as UU chaplains.

"but because "anything goes" belief systems are dangerously tolerant of error."

As opposed to "Anything Goes If We Say God Wants It" belief systems?

Frankly, sir, most Christians don't *live up to* Pagan ethical standards, which we find directly in the world and among people and the effects of our actions.

Orthodoxy is not the *source* of human morality, ...it's a *displacement* of it. It's a *talisman.* Something people can look at and justify their actions, instead of looking at the *effects* of their actions.

Want to hate gays? Don't look at the harm you do, don't look at the injustice, ..do whatever you want to people and say 'God wants it.'

Error? We're Pagans. We're *allowed* to make errors. We're *not* allowed to *harm* people and say the Gods demand it.

You say we're 'Anything Goes,' and call us some kind of ravening hedonists because we don't follow your 'orthodoxy' where the greedy are justified by belief, and the poor aren't cared for in reality, cause someone says 'This book says bitter suffering is good for the soul, whatever the facts say.'

Look at my people. 'Theologically,' we can have all the stuff and sex that we *want,* so long as it harms none.

You'll find us among the most sharing and caring and *un-acquisitive* people you'll ever want to meet.

Christians just *say* they must be.

Whether they are or not.

" The reason pagans get directed to UU congregations is that UU have moderately low doctrinal standards and are therefore more welcoming of polytheistic earth-based religious expression. Even so, there are some people rightly called pagans who would not even feel comfortable in the UU."

The UU have faith in the Sacred enough not to be hung up on trying to *control* belief, but rather to *inform* it.

I think your scorn is misplaced.

Mr. Stallgiss,
I would question where you are getting your information regarding Pagan religions when you make a broad, sweeping statement that claims Pagans practice "make it up as you go" religion with no system of accountability.
I would like to first address Dr.Thistlethwaite's comment "Pagans (sometimes called Wiccans)", as it leads the reader to believe that all Pagans are Wiccans, which certainly isn't the case. Wicca is only one religious tradition within Paganism, and there are as many, if not more, types of Pagan religions as there are denominations of Christianity; some of those religions predate the Abrahamic traditions by several thousand years, one needs only to look at Hinduism or any of the indigenous religions of the world to find this.
Each Pagan or Neopagan religion comes with it's own set of ethics, values, theology, philosophy, worldview, cosmology, Deities, and even orthodoxy. Concerning Wicca in particular, as with many other world religions, if you call yourself a Wiccan you are expected to adhere to a certain standard of ethics and behavior, have particular set of theological beliefs, celebrate a particular set of sacred days with a specific form of litury, etc. Wicca does afford its practitioners room to meet these requirements, but that doesn't lessen that fact that they are there. So your comment of "believe whatever you want and do whatever you want" has absolutely no basis in fact. Christians are far more likely to do whatever they want and believe whatever they want. In fact, I believe that, not too long ago, Pope Benedict VIX bemoaned the fact that so few Catholics adhered to the tenets of Catholic faith.
Finally, regarding your inclusion of the practice of female genitial mutilation that occures in African cultures as an example of "Paganism gone bad", I would suggest you also look at numerous examples that could easily be used to show how Christianity has gone bad, as well.

"Pagans as a group don't have an orthodoxy, so there is no "pagan" basis for correcting error or ensuring respect for women and minorities."

The idea that you need an "orthodoxy" to respect people is *your* religious belief, sir, not ours.

"Even so, there are some people rightly called pagans who would not even feel comfortable in the UU."

Pagans with capital P, not anyone in Africa you decide to call 'pagan.'

You're right, though. The UU are good folks and I respect them a lot. Unfortunately, the Christian imagery in their worship is poison to me, thanks to other sects of Christianity, which also, from my point of view, 'can believe almost anything and still be considered legitimate Christians,' (as long as you say some words, which mean little in my world: apparently you're supposed to swear your soul to some 'absolute authority' which never seems to agree with itself)

As for the UU's lineage relating to the Salem Witch Trials, this is true. 'They' have also learned better, and embraced change. As they show a consistent willingness to do, which earns high respect from me. They need my help with anything, they got it.

Pagans, sir, are *modern people* with many ancient heritages.

Some say this makes us 'Unamerican.'

I say it makes us America. :)

Thistlewaite frames supression of Wiccan and Pagan beliefs as some sort of insult against women or as a male-establishment resistance to female spiritual leadership.

I suggest that perhaps Thistlewaite is conflating the issue of mysogyny with the issue of orthodoxy. People speak out against Pagan beliefs not because of Paganism's supposedly positive treatment of women, but because they understand that Pagans can believe almost anything and still be affirmed as legitimate Pagans.

The word Pagan comes from the word "pāgus" which connotes rural villages where many varieties of local folk religions flourished. Anybody who follows one of these local folk religions can be considered pagan, regardless of whether the religious system is friendly or hostile to female spiritual leadership.

Some African Animists practice female genital circumcision... Roop Kanwar comes to mind as an example of Pagan practice gone bad. Pagans as a group don't have an orthodoxy, so there is no "pagan" basis for correcting error or ensuring respect for women and minorities.

You can believe whatever you want and do whatever you want be a "legitimate" Pagan. Critics will continue to resist Paganism not because Paganism has an "enlightened" view of women, but because "anything goes" belief systems are dangerously tolerant of error. The reason pagans get directed to UU congregations is that UU have moderately low doctrinal standards and are therefore more welcoming of polytheistic earth-based religious expression. Even so, there are some people rightly called pagans who would not even feel comfortable in the UU.

Do we really want "form your own personal religion" chaplains in the Army? I would grant that we could use UU chaplains, but to invite Wiccan or Pagan chaplains would institutionalize an "ishy" spirituality that would provide little value in the military.

Old time Puritanism is part of UCC history, but for its present-day practitioners you'd have to look elsewhere: to the Baptists, in fact. None of the UCC members I know are willing to shy away from the abhorrent actions of their forebears, but unlike some faiths they disavow the mistakes and move forward with a more tolerant attitude, rather than clinging to and attempting to justify the actions of past congregations.
A lot of what went on in early New England had its roots in -- surprise, surprise! -- politics and civil identity.

Athena:

There's no slander - the Puritans were responsible for the Salem Witch Trials and... from Wikipedia:

"Congregational Churches also trace their lineage back to the Puritans. One example is the Congregational Christian Churches (CCC) denomination in the United States (which merged with the Evangelical and Reformed Church in 1957 to form the United Church of Christ.) The CCC is the direct descendant of New England Puritan congregations, although in the early 19th century a few of these old congregations adopted Unitarianism."

Thank you, Dr. Thistlewaite, for championing the rights of Pagans to equal accomodation under the law.

When I studied at CTS under Robert Moore back in the 80's, he "outed" me from the broomcloset. An African student sitting next to me struggled to spend the rest of the hour on the far edge of his seat, while shading his face from me. For the rest of the term, he avoided sitting anywhere I might see his face, changing chairs to do so.

Prof. Moore then asked the foreign students what they thought of their ancestors' spiritual condition, and this same student said that his grandparents were "roasting in hell."

I pitied that poor man, set at spiritual war against his own kin and history. Missionaries taught those ideas. I hope that CTS can heal this sort of fear which once was typical among Christians in the US and Europe.

Gary,

I had not heard that slander that the forerunner of the UCC was responsible for Salem. If it is false, I apologize on behalf of all Pagans. If anything, the UCC is one of the most welcoming denominations of Christianity, along with the Unitarians. The modern-day equivalent of the people responsible for Salem would be the Fundamentalists who want to impose a Christian theocracy on all of us.

And thanks, Dr. Thistlethwaite, for such a wonderful response!

Thanks, Doctor.

Though, I should point out that it's more accurate to describe Wicca as a major, and broadly-influential *subset* of Paganism:

Wicca is to Paganism as 'Catholicism' or 'Mainline Protestantism' is to Christianity.

Oh... like the prejudice of our (UCC) predecessor denominations that were responsible for the Salem Witch trials. Got it.