God's Vote -- Democracy Comes to Iran

Ravitchn, not a hint of logic, not a single reason given for your ridiculous insult. Grow up.

CollinNicholas: calling your opponent bipolar is a strange way to start an argument.

NikosD99: Aside from the fact that your post is a classic "red herring," how is homosexuality not "normal?" Is it abnormal because you don't do it? Is it abnormal because it's mentioned, what, TWICE in a vast collection of writings that includes hundreds of demands for charity and love (the Bible)? It has always existed among humans (and some animals, apparently) and it always will. It is not chosen, it is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. If you believe in a creating deity, you have to credit Him/It with creating homosexuality.

My guess is you just find it intuitively objectionable - it's a gut feeling for you. Tell me, what would a scientist from an alien planet think if he witnessed HETEROSEXUAL human copulation? It's awkward, loud, messy, and often not even much fun for half of the participants.

There is no logical reason why homosexual behavior is any less "normal" than heterosexual behavior. It's not pathological, it doesn't impair normal function and it doesn't hurt anybody.

Some people say there are scriptural reasons, but those are weak. The writers of the Bible evidently had other priorities. It's a bit strange for the most religious members of our society to be up in arms over something that is almost absent from the Bible when poverty and injustice - the things it actually emphasizes - are still so widespread.

This is not faith and it is not reason. It is just hate, and it is a sin.

'The luckiest thing that ever happened to me was that my father didn't believe in God; and so he had no hang-ups about souls. I see ourselves as products of evolution, which is itself a great mystery."

James Watson. Nobel prize winning biologist and co-discoverer of DNA, in Discover Magazine July 2006

susan:
"When I watch the people in Iran spilling out into the streets, demanding to know where their vote went, I can see the hand of God"

With all due respect Susan, i can't. I can only see people who just wanna know where the hell their vote went. Nothing to do with god, its totally secular. Thats the point.

I'm not qualified to argue with a theologian. I'd just ask: Why is a Christian theologian's opinion about what God wants any more valid than a mullah's opinion about what God wants? What evidence does she have that the Iranian theocracy isn't the result of God "bending history toward justice?" I'd venture to say, none. Just faith. Some of us got it, some of us don't.

My take on all this is that SBT a liberal Western theologian projecting liberal Western values onto something happening in a decidedly non-liberal, non-Western country. Her God is a post-Reformation, post-Englightenment feminist God. Khameini's God is a pre-Reformation, pre-Enlightenment tribal Arab god. Her God makes us feel good about ourselves. His God scares the crap out of us.

Now you tell me: Which one is the real God? Or are they both aspects of the same God? Or is God just God and people keep making up stories about him?

"Given the election-related turmoil in the Islamic Republic of Iran, can democracy ever take hold in a theocracy?"

NO

Thistlewhistle wrote: "I believe "God's rule" in democracy is where the moral universe is bending history toward justice. I know that this belief is anathema both to my secularist friends and to my friends who are more doctrinaire in their religious beliefs."

And do we see God's rule in the chimpanzees who for some reason do not tear eachother apart and eat their young? Mankind has for millenia been at peace and charitable, resulting in much progress. Mankind has also been at war and uncharitable, resulting in little progress and much suffering. Ask any human which they prefer. I think you know the answer. There is your "moral universe" bending history toward justice. Sometimes we just need to be reminded of the suffering we cause, as MLK showed us all. Sometimes we need to see through those who call us to war, as Americans finally did with Bush&Co. In the end all humans are moral. Its in our nature. We have even erected institutions to bend ourselves toward peace and justice.

The protests in Iran are nothing new. Iranians are feeling injustice and reacting to it as any person would. Why does God need to come into this? Why is it that when people react instinctively we must explain it in spiritual ways. You should instead be asking whether God voted in 1933 Berlin. Where was God's vote when Congress authorized Bush to use all possible means after 911. I don't blame you for seeing God in everything of any importance that happens. You've been trained for that. But please step back and think a little. Its not all about trying to figure out why God allows some things to happen. Instead try to figure out why people let things happen. When working within the real world you will find you get real answers.

Instead of dealing with the subject of democracy vs theocracy in Iran, I would like to question Thistlethwaite's qualifications in being able to see the hand of God in anything.

When she sees a million women a year spilling out into the streets of America after undergoing an abortion that killed an innocent child in their wombs, I wonder if she sees the hand of God applauding the practice?

When she sees homosexual activists getting laws passed that allow them to invade our elementary schools, beginning with kindergarten, in order to indoctrinate these innocent minds as to their sexuality, and to persuade them to accept homosexuality as normal, I wonder if she sees the hand of God applauding?

I wonder if she sees the hand of God when laws are being made that are designed to shut the mouths of concerned citizens who happen to believe in God's moral truths? The sin of these citizens is that they are genuinely concerned about the future of America and where it is headed.

Thistlethwaite has made it clear that she approves of these programs. Her profession is as a theologian. Webster defines theology as, "the study of God, and the relations between God and the universe; study of religious doctrines and matters of divinity." As a theologian, Thistlethwaite should know the Bible inside out, forward and backward. Does she have any idea how God judged the nations in the past? I'll just post a couple of key passages in hopes that the reader will look them up and read the full accounts.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

As far as Thistlethwaite's joy in seeing us "right-wing terrorists" finally being silenced, I offer her the following verses.

Psalm 2:1-5 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

In my opinion, Thistlethwaite can't see her own hand in front of her face, let alone the hand of God. She's a blind guide to the blind. My prayer for her is that she gets "born again".

Thistlespin would probably have seen God's hand in Nazi rallies as well.

The situation in Iran would be like if Pat Robertson was in charge of the government and had guns. There's a certain fanantical element in Iranian society that will do whatever the Ayatollahs tell them to, and unfortunately they constitute perhaps 1/3 of the population along with another 1/3 of the population which would be quite comfortable living in any Western country. That's pretty much the situation that existed at the time of the Shah's overthrow, and nothing much has changed in that respect in the intervening 30 years. That's also the situation that exists in nearby Turkey, which has reached a peaceful accommodation between its two extremes in which there are secular enclaves in the cities with religious enclaves elsewhere. The difference between Turkey and Iran is that in Turkey the secularists and religous don't try to impose their rules on each other (except in a few circumstances too lengthy to mention here). Turkey today is the working model for a peaceful outcome in Iran. It's too bad Khamenei doesn't see it that way.

Susan;

You're so manic today. You sound really desperate; as if you're trying to convince yourself that there really IS a God.

Relax, because there probably isn't.

Now doesn't the world make more sense now? Just take Him out of the picture and there it is! The Real world. Complicated but understandable. We don't need Gods anymore.
It's the twenty-first century.

Susan,

I'm betting that you see the hand of god everywhere that you want to see the hand of god, and that you don't see the hand of god where you don't want to see the hand of god.

I, personally, have never seen the hand of god, and am certain that I will never see the hand of god.

I would equate the Arc/Pendulum, more to a High Risk Rescue Operation. I don't see Justice associated with this.
Human Beings in their nature, often are endowed with gifts that enable them to reach low, in an attempt to Rescue.

With regards to Iran, New leadership recognizes a need to save their country or at least, lead it in a different direction(Dr. King). The problem is, existing leadership looks bad and in that case, pride leads to tyranny.

Usually it is a simple understanding

“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.”

Would anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:

x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatollah Sistani
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran”
x= VOLKMARE

more “logic”?
“I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible
Bible.

I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

HE told us this and it is recorded in the bible.

Mark
Always seek the truth

"He is, however watching what we do. It is part of the reason we are here in the first place: to prove our worthiness to return to his house."

And who told us this??? And who is he?? And why not a "she" or "it"?????

If god were to influence us as to how to vote, that would be taking away our free will.

I think it is good that the Iranian people are standing up for what they believe when it comes to the political issues, but this is not the hand of god.

He is, however watching what we do. It is part of the reason we are here in the first place: to prove our worthiness to return to his house.

Mark
Always seek the truth.