God Blesses Gay Marriage

Peter,
I did not define a tribe as religious people. I define a tribe as any group of people who purpose to live as a community. Narrow definitions of tribe are part of thr problem. If we could ALL get to the point of seeing all others as members of our own tribe, whether thelive in the next house on the street, or the next continent on our globe, we would have less incetive for warfare.

If your god would judge me as guilty and eternally condemn me for offering to share food with you because I didn't do so in his name, then your god is not worthy of my worship.

The queen and queen does not make for a king. Cash is king and money talks. What's it say? In God We Trust. The rest is plastic and bad debt. Time travel for a dollar. Here come kids carrying papers. She's got me ringing hells bells again. She just won't stop and why should she?

Don't you think that often when people say, "God blesses X," they really mean, "if I were God, I would bless X?" Maybe the proof is that we don't often acknowledge, even if we worship God, that God's goodness is not contingent on his meeting OUR moral standards. God IS the standard--whatever it is. I think you have to accept the limitations of your own judgments. We have to try to understand that even our deepest convictions can be wrong.
I think that would go a long way toward diffusing the conflict.

Part 5,

LEPI: "I'm aware that there is only so much food to go around. But if I have half a sandwich, and you are hungry and have nothing to eat, then we will both dine on a fourth of a sandwich. I do this, not because Jesus said to do so, but because you are a hungry person and I have food. In case you weren't aware of it, people who believe in gods other than yours, and people who believe in no gods at all are capable of compassion."

People who believe in gods other than the true and living God and who try to live life on their own "good" merit will be judged on their own merit with all its faults. That is the warning found in Scripture and it would be unloving to not warn you of this. You are going down the highway in the wrong direction and the bridge is out in that direction, the warning signs are there, but you keep driving on.

Part 3,

Everybody worships either a god or God Himself. To worship God you must know who He is. The knowledge of God comes through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as does eternal life.

Jesus became man to meet the righteous requirement of man before God, the requirements of perfectly meeting God's perfect standard, for it was man who broke them, so Christ willingly dying in the stead of those who would believe in Him as that Mediator, that perfect sacrifice, the perfect Man, in order to take the wrath and punishment that should have been theirs.

Christians are counted dead in Christ and dead to sin. His righteousness is transferred to us because in the transaction of Him dying in our stead is also His meeting God's righteous standard. [BTW, Christ is our righteousness (Matthew 6:33), because He is also Jehovah-tsidkenu - The LORD our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6).

In this way God's justice is met and the penalty for sin or wrongdoing is satisfied and paid for in Christ. He descends into hell with the impurity of our spirits upon Himself, all the vile and detestable things you and I have done counted to His credit, although He did no wrong, and emerges only with the purity of His Spirit intact.

Either it is going to be your merit you are judged on before God or it is going to be Christ's. There is no third option. And the eternal life He (Jesus) gives is His own life (for in Him is life, in His Spirit is life). Eternal life is life without beginning whereas everlasting life is life from a point onwards forevermore. There is a difference. That is why in passages like Matthew 25:46 the KJV makes a distinction between everlasting punishment and eternal life. Only God has eternal life and we are in union with Him when He gives us new life for we are a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24).

Paul said it well, "I have been crucified with Christ and I NO LONGER LIVE, but Christ lives in me [i.e. His eternal life is now my life]. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be obtained through the law, Christ died for nothing." (Galatians 2:20-21)

God's Holy Spirit dwells in those who are in Christ Jesus because the Holy Spirit is just that, holy and pure. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Part 2 to Lepi,

LEPI: "You accuse me of arrogance for asserting that the world would function better if people just realized that peaceful co-existence is preferable to conquest, but for you to suggest that universal conversion to your religion is the only possible way for people to peacefully co-exist is beyond arrogant."

Well, this is a loaded statement. I don't accuse you of arrogance for asserting the world would be better off if everyone loved their neighbors as well as their enemies, for the two can go hand in hand. That is what the Bible teaches. But look at the world, since recorded history. It is a story for the most part of man/woman living at war or against their neighbor.

Ask yourself why that is? It's because everybody wants to play God and decide for themselves what the common good is from their subjective viewpoint. They want to be the highest authority in deciding all things when something disagrees with their viewpoint.

As for the exclusivity of the Christian world view, ask yourself if two contradictory believes can both be true at the same time and in the same way?

Can it both be true that Jesus is the only way to God and that Jesus is not the only way to God, or that Jesus is the only way and also that Islam is also the only way, or a way? It is not logical to say that Jesus is the only way to God if God did not exist, or that there is no God when there actually is. Logically, no. It is rational to believe that two contradictory statements cannot both be true when they state exactly the opposite of the other. A dog is not a cat, even though you may claim it to be. Truth cannot be both true and false, for if it was false it would not be true.

People want God on their own terms. They want the sovereignty to decide what God will be. Most people want a god who is good but not just. But that is not how God is, thank goodness! God will not compromise His justice. Goodness and justice go hand in hand. Mercy, grace and eternal life come through Jesus Christ.

Hi Lepidopteryx,

LEPI: "I'm well aware that many world leaders do not play by "my" rules. I stated as much in my post. I'd love to be able to convince them all that more can be gained in the long run by cooperation than by conquest, but apparently they are wearing lead underwear and it's blocking my telepathic transmissions to them.
I didn't say that they WOULD play nicely, just that we would all be better off if they DID."

That is just the point. Why is your better "good?" The point I'm arguing against is that unless you have THE ultimate objective standard (which you borrow from the Bible), who decides what the "good" standard is? History has a pretty sorrowful past of people deciding on what "good" is going to be. It changes according to where you live.

What I am also arguing for is that without God it is all meaningless. Evolution does not decide what good is, people do, but based on what? Evolution does not make moral judgments. It dictates by survival that if giving that last loaf of bread means you die of starvation, then you are going to eat that last loaf of bread.

LEPI: "I never said that I thought Americans were better than anyone else. Where did you see that in my post?"

You labels religious people, in which Christianity would also be thought of, as a tribe. I just borrowed the phrase and applied it to the people of the country you live in, since their ideas may not be similar to those in other countries.

LEPI: "I never said that I thought the US should dictate the rules to the rest of the world, either."

That is not my point. My point is that we don't all share in your idea of what good "should" be, so who makes the rules and why are they right? Why do you get to call the shots? Why do you feel that your tribe has that "right." Is what you believe totally objective, without bias?

LEPI: "As for "eliminating" those who don't share my point of view, that would negate my point, would it not?"

The point again is that throughout history many people have eradicated those who opposed them. Why "should" your subjective idea of what is right be the one that we all follow? Joe Blow is going to eradicate you because he thinks his view is the way it should be. Who are you to say it isn't, without an objective standard to measure anything as good by?

I do not suppose that there will ever be an end to this debate, at least not this side of eternity.

For me, what it comes down to is whether we regard what the standard of the Christian Faith--the Bible--says. Because, contrary to what some would like to see, one cannot disregard Biblical injunctions and remain Christian.

The Bible tells us that there is nothing new under the sun. With that in mind, I remind you of the scripture in Jeremiah (either chapter 28 or 29) about a prophet called Hannaniah.

Jeremiah prophesied that God would send Israel into Babylonian captivity because of their sins and that some would die horribly. Hannaniah opposed Jeremiah and prophesied that it would not be so, but that God would save them all.

Of course, Jeremiah was right and Hannaniah, who wanted to appease the people against what God's word clearly stated, was proven wrong. he paid with his life.

This debate seems old. God says one thing and some, even in the church, say another. God's word is and always will be, right.

The problem is that Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite and many others put what they think as right above what God says is actually right. Again, this is nothing new because the Bible speaks of a time past when everyone did what was right in their own eyes and disregarded his words (Judges). It did not turn out well.

The Bible still speaks, and it tells us that we are living in a time when people will love pleasure more than they love God; they will turn to teachers who will tell them what they want to hear. These people, the Bible promises, will be rejected by God.

The quarrel is not with the Christian; it is with God.

i rather marry a goat than to a same-sex.
Posted by: pacifistcode
***************************************************************************************
Sorry, but livestock isn't eligible to enter into a legal contract. Put your hands up and step away from the goat.

Peter,

I'm well aware that many world leaders do not play by "my" rules. I stated as musch in my post. I'd love to be able to convince them all that more can be gained in the long run by cooperation than by conquest, but apparently they are wearing lead underwear and it's blocking my telepathic transmissions to them.
I didn't say that they WOULD play nicely, just that we would all be better off if they DID.

I never said that I thought Americans were better than anyone else. Where did you see that in my post?
I never said that I thought the US should dictate the rules to the rest of the world, either. I think that the US sticks its nose into too many foreign places it doesn't belong as it is.
And it's not as if the US exactly plays by "my" rules anyway.

As for "eliminating" those who don't share my point of view, that would negate my point, would it not? I prefer to peacefully co-exist to the greatest degree possible, but I also will defend myself if attacked. I don't see those two ideas as contradictory.

You accuse me of arrogance for asserting that the world would function better if people just realized that peaceful co-existence is preferable to conquest, but for you to suggest that universal conversion to your religion is the only possible way for people to peacefully co-exist is beyond arrogant.

I'm aware that there is only so much food to go around. But if I have half a sandwich, and you are hungry and have nothing to eat, then we will both dine on a fourth of a sandwich. I do this, not because Jesus said to do so, but because you are a hungry person amd I have food. In case you weren't aware of it, people who beleive in gods other than yours, and people who believe in no gods at all are capable of compassion.

i have never heard of this one before. precisely, waging war against God's laws won't make any one popular. trying to be a minority allied, a sort of inhumane value redialing won't earn you any further support for church leadership of the American nation. can't you understand that i'm trying to convince you that Gay thing is un-biblically damaging. i rather marry a goat than to a same-sex.

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression to make sure our brothers and sisters in other countries to include Canada sleep well)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, USA Troops, 3,440 KIA, 846 non-hostile) and 91,843 – 100,263 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

Continued below:

Other elements of The USA's War on Terror and Aggression: (so Canadians et al can sleep well)

- Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

- Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

- Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

- North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

- North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

- Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

- The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

- Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

- Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan.

- Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

- Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

- Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

- Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

- The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

- And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Hi Lepidopteryx,

LEPI: "Peter,
It does not require the intervention or inspiration of a supernatural being to understand that it's not healthy for the tribe for its members to commit acts of physical, mental, or emotional violence on one another. It's common sense. It applies whether or not your daily routine involves the invocaton of a deity. It's every bit as much a survival mechanism as the reflex to pull my hand back if it gets too close to a heat source."

Then maybe you had better take a closer look at the world today. For instance, do you think that North Korea's Kim Il-sung is going to play ball by your rules. It's a one party state where those who voice opposition to the tribe are eliminated. The same applies or applied to many other Asian nations, such as China or the Soviet Union/Russia, Burma/Myanmar, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq at some point in the last hundred years.

History is replete with examples of the tribe playing by it's own rules. So why do you think that your tribe, the USA "should" dictate the rules to the rest of the world? Just watch the nightly news or prime time reality to see how civil you really are.

LEPI: "I cannot for the life of me see how you got "bigger, meaner tribe has the right to attack smaller, weaker tribe because that's just what they do" out of my contention that laws against harming members of your own tribe contribute to the survival of the tribe."

There are too many examples to cite. Try Hitler and the SS, or Stalin and the KGB, or Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, or Saddam Hussein and the Special Guard, or Mao and the Red Guard, all again in the last one hundred years. Or go further back in history.

As a Canadian I do not think that Americans are seen favorably in many parts of this world. So why your rules? What makes you think they are so "good?" Good for many is what puts them on top of the heap.

LEPI: "If you look at the big picture, we're all members of the same tribe - humanity. Any of us harming any other one of us ultimately harms us all, even if it isn't immediately apparent to the one doing the harming."

You're again borrowing from the Christian world view. If there is only so much food to go around why would you take the Christian approach in loving your enemy? Evolution works by the law of the jungle, only the strong or fittest survive.

So why "should" your way of looking at things be the standard when there are so many subjective opinions out there that oppose your ideal? Are you going to eliminate all that disagree until you are the majority? You keep implying something objective, which is the Christian God. You keep adopting the Christian position of "love your neighbor" all the while opposing the God who issued the command.

Hmmm, it appears Homeland has taken up the mantle of New World's probability waves. And what drives these waves of blog infection?? Hmmm, the full Moon???

Volkmare

One would think that if God could dream up such a fancy word as "abomination," then he would also be able to use the word "gay" when that is what he meant.

You are telling me the words he meant to use, but did not actuallly use.

You are the one here who has decided to settle this by examining and weighing each and every word of a Biblical verse.

You are an absurd person, without an ounce of common sense or level-headedness.

You seem to know what God thinks better even than God.

DANIELINTHELIONSDEN
“If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman.."
"I assume you are inferring that a person who is speaking in God's voice is saying that if two heterosexual men have sex with each other...
Yet that is alot of inferring, and it seems to apply to straight men only, without any reference at all to gay men, or gay women, or to sexual orientation, since gay men don't have sex with women.
You are inferring alot. YOu are callng you dubious inferences God's law. That is absurd."

ANSWER:
It is a simple statement.
Just because you don’t see the word “gay” doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to gays.
And it –is- God’s law.

DANIELINTHELIONSDEN
"...both of them have committed an abomination…”.
"So, what is an abomination? Is it a sin, or just something that people don't like? I will admit that religious people don't like gay people. You don't. And why is such a word as abomination reserved only to condemn gay people Isn't that a rather flamboyantly hateful?
Why isn't your twisted and perverted interpertaiton of Christianity an abomination? Why isn't it an abomination that you sign off each of your lies with "always seek the truth?"

ANSWER:
Abomination is God’s word, not mine.
Don’t infer mankind’s influences into it. Man did not dictate the words to Moses, God did.

In addition, if you dont "always seek the truth", you are lost.

Mark
Always seek the truth!

WE'LL DEVOUR ALL OLDTIME-RELIGION & CLEANSE YE!
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TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

Being gay is a whole collection of traits, which are integrated into the personality, so that it is a major defining quality of the personality. Therefore, a person’s gay orientation cannot be "eradicated" without drastically altering, changing, and damaging the personality. Seeking to change a gay person into a straight person, even to wish for it, is profoundly offensive and hostile.

Same sex attraction is only one among the collection of traits that gay people have. The actual logistics of sexual positions and sex acts varies from person to person, and you cannot know what any single person does in private, gay or straight, unless they tell you.

Would you ask?

You wouldn't condemn your heterosexual friends and relatives, because all of the sexual positions and practices which you might imagine about them, would you? You wouldn’t visualize and imagine the actual sexual positions that your own mother might have engaged in, would you, even though you know she must have had sex at least once.

If you would not ask your own relatives and neighbors about the physical details of their sex lives, and the sex positions that they engage in, why then would you ask, or even wonder about a gay person's sex life? In all cases, it would be equally none of your business. Even to suggest that you do not approve, and to suggest that they pretend to be "normal" is not your business.
.
Gay people are a part of life and always have been. They are everywhere, in all countries, in all cities, in every state, and even in little towns and villages.

You will encounter many gay people every day of your life. When you walk through a mall, eat in a restaurant, fly in a plane, even in your Bible study group, and sitting in church, there are gay people around you. So, again, it is a little rude to discuss them, in their own presence, as though they are strange reptilian things with scales and horns.

They are just people.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

Sexual orientation happens.

When you focus on another person, that person becomes impressed upon your mind. This impression forms images and feelings about that person. People of one sex impress sexual feelings upon the mind. People of the other sex do not. This is sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation happens. It is an impression on the mind as much as the impression of a Spring morning or the impression of a band playing. It is the flow of sensory impressions as the flow of water on the skin. Sexual orientation is an impression on the mind, as the smell of coffee, or the taste of brownies, or the purr of a soft kitten.

How these impressions form images in our minds is an autonomic process beyond conscious control, but is a part of the mental apparatus which exists inside each one of us. When your impressions of sexual feeling come from someone of the opposite sex, you are said to be heterosexual. But when these impressions come from someone of the same sex, then you are said to be homosexual.

Under this conception of sexual orientation, it does not matter whether it is genetic or acquired, but only that it is an unconscious mental process. It does not matter whether you have been promiscuous or a virgin or what sex acts you may have already experienced, only the impression of another human being on your mind matters. It doesn’t matter how much testosterone or estrogen may flow through your body, nor whether your physical mannerisms are more feminine or masculine in character, only the impression of another person on the mind matters.

For, sexual orientation happens, as vision happens, as hearing happens. Sexual orientation happens, as the beating of the heart happens, as the breath of the lungs happens, as consciousness happens.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

There are millions of gay people in the world. In the past they have been mute. Now, more and more of them are finding a voice. Now, a gay person is likely to speak up when confronted with bigotry. Merely speaking up for oneself is the "problem." And it is a "problem" that will not go away.

In the progress of humanity, sexual orientation is now viewed differently than it was in the past. The old taboo against gays is gone, and it can never be brought back. The fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates this to be true. That is the progress of history. There is no tactic that anyone can devise that will undo this fact. When right-wing Christians rant against gay people, and trump up all kinds of "proof" that God is on their side, that only hurts them, and imperils the position of Christianity in the world even more, as each new generation extends to Christianity less and less credibility.

Homophobic Christianity is primitive, backward, and shallow. All it amounts to is assuming the voice of God, and then speaking in a commanding tone to others, as though God is speaking. But such Christians are not God and do not speak for God. In fact, I find such impersonations of God to be offensive.

Peter,
It does not require the intervention or inspiration of a supernatural being to understand that it's not healthy for the tribe for its members to commit acts of physical, mental, or emotional violence on one another. It's common sense. It applies whether or not your daily routine involves the invocaton of a deity. It's every bit as much a survival mechanism as the reflex to pull my hand back if it gets too close to a heat source.

I cannot for the life of me see how you got "bigger, meaner tribe has the right to attack smaller, weaker tribe because that's just what they do" out of my contention that laws against harming members of your own tribe contribute to the survival of the tribe.
If you look at the big picture, we're all members of the same tribe - humanity. Any of us harming any other one of us ultimately harms us all, even if it isn't immediately apparent to the one doing the harming.

Or as a wise friend of mine once put it " [It] all boils down to two things. 1 - You are a part of something bigger than yourself. 2 - Be nice to each other. If everyone would keep those two ideas in mind, the rest would take care of itself." That concept does not require belief in a deity. Again, it's common sense.
Unfortunately, too many people don't keep those things in mind, and then other people end up having to defend themselves against those who would rather hoard all the toys for themselves and push everyone else off the swings than play nicely.

CC, Stop obsessing over who's on top and what organ/orifice/object combos are employed. That isn't written in stone for straights either. Perhaps you and your honey limit yourselves to missionary position, but plenty of us str8ts go man on top, woman on top, side by side, face-to-face, doggie style, oral and/or anal penetration, 69, and use a variety of toys, sometimes all in the same evening.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
DANIELINTHELIONSDEN |
READ MY LIPS“

IRT:
“You in your simple minded ignorance you do not know the harm you are wreaking nor the threat that you pose.”

ANS:
If you are the friend of the Homosexual you should have the decency to warn them of the inevitable tragic consequence that will occur from the iniquitous activity they are engaging in. Instead you defend them and falsely claim they have no choice but to be gay.

Your blindness or what ever it is can be comparable to having a friend and telling them that if they jump off a cliff it will not harm them, and then by defending their activity, you push them over the cliff as an act of compassion.

IRT:
If someone sought to modify you mind and your personality, wouldn't you resist?

ANS:
No, not if it was in my best interest, and it would save my life, as does the counseling of homosexuals does.

IRT:
“What if someone said that you could not be Catholic any more?”

ANS:
Now, that would be irrational because everyone has a right to worship God. No one has a right to be immoral. The Catholic religion is a religion of truth and it is the fundamental right of man to seek the truth.

Homosexuality is different; it is an irrational affliction that threatens the life of the individual when they engage in gay sex. Subsequently it is a contradiction of their very nature. Homosexuality is an affliction; gay sex is a choice to engage in illicit sex. It is neither natural nor licit but an aberration that can be remedied, by practicing the virtues of purity and chastity and appealing to God for His intercession and graces. God does not burden man with demands that man cannot overcome.

IRT:
“But even more, you could not even acknowledge such a thing as religion exists or has ever existed? And what if they used force and coercion to make this happen? What would you think of that?”

I would think that they violated my natural right to act according to the purpose God created all mankind for, viz. to seek God’s love through the religion that God gave man to do that. God never gave Homosexuals an inalienable right to be immoral. That would be a contradiction of His Laws, and therefore Himself, and that is impossible. Truth, who is God, cannot contradict Truth. To marry the same sex is not only a contradiction of Marriage but is an oxymoron that contradicts the physical and spiritual differences of man and woman.

: IN REPLY TO (IRT)
: DANIELINTHELIONSDEN |
“READ MY LIPS“

IRT:
“I made no comment on whether a gene causes a person to be gay or not. So you can argue that train of thought, but you are only blowing hot air to no one in particular. I merely stated that sexual orientation is not chosen; it is the way people turn out.”

ANS:
Read your own lips. You claimed Homosexuals are born gay several times. Moreover, you say that being gay is unalterable. That is an implicit statement that there is a genetic gene that makes some people homosexual. That was the argument of the gay community and the APA. Now they have withdrawn it, because there is no proof to verify it. Consequently, people are not born gay.

IRT:
“Yet, any simpleton knows that being gay is more than same sex attraction."

ANS:
Same sex attraction is exclusively the distinguishing mark of Homosexuality. Quit trying to explain it away.

IRT:
“There are many qualities of gay people, which I note, a collection of traits, which are more of a syndrome than mere same sex attraction."

ANS:
What are they, and how do they differ from Heterosexuality?

IRT:
"You could not change a gay person into a straight person without radically altering their personalities in a fundamental way."

ANS:
Again, you’re living in world of denial. Gays have changed and the last post given you has former gays testifying to there change. Moreover, they are normal and not radical of which they would be if radically changed.

IRT:
"That is why you are such a menace to gay people."

ANS:
To the contrary, it is people like you who deny the truth and promote such iniquities and inordinate sexual proclivities in face of all the evidence that contradicts your many false contentions.

Consequently, you endanger gay people defending their iniquity that puts them in a position of incurring great suffering and death from the ominous nature of these illicit sexual acts. Over 26 million have died worldwide from such activity, and more than 35 million are infected with HIV, notwithstanding about double that amount are infected with STDs, which apparently means nothing to you, or else you are blind to its consequences.

Dear TTWYADAYADAYADA

Read my lips.

I made no comment on whether a gene causes a person to be gay or not. So you can argue that train of thought, but you are only blowing hot air to no one in particular. I merely stated that sexual orientation is not chosen; it is the way people turn out.

Yet, any simpleton kmows that being gay is more than same sex attraction. There are many qualities of gay people, which I note, a collection of traits, which are more of a syndrome than mere same sex attraction.

You could not change a gay person into a straight person without radically altering their personalities in a fundamental way. That is why you are such a menace to gay people. You in your simple minded ignorance do not know the harm you are wreaking nor the threat that you pose.

If someone sought to modify you mind and your personality, wouldn't you resist? What if someone said that you could not be Catholic any more? But even more, you could not even acknowledge such a thing as religion exists or has ever existed? And what if they used force and coercion to make this happen? What would you think of that?

That is what you are to gay people.

Volkmare

“If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman.."

I assume you are inferring that a person who is speaking in God's voice is saying that if two heterosexual men have sex with each other...

Yet that is alot of inferring, and it seems to apply to straight men only, without any reference at all to gay men, or gay women, or to sexual orientation, since gay men don't have sex with women.

You are inferring alot. YOu are callng you dubious inferences God's law. That is absurd.

"...both of them have committed an abomination…”.

So, what is an abomination? Is it a sin, or just something that people don't like? I will admit that religious people don't like gay people. You don't. And why is such a word as abomination reserved only to condemn gay people Isn't that a rather flamboyantly hateful?

Why isn't your twisted and perverted interpertaiton of Christianity an abomination? Why isn't it an abomination that you sign off each of your lies with "always seek the truth?"

If you want to see an abomination, then look at yourself in the mirror.

Some observations about gay sex:

Hmmm lets see, in gay sexual activity, who plays the guy and who plays the gal? Who is on top and who is on the bottom? A coin flip? To say the least, an unusual situation. Then there are those "made in China" toys/strap-ons. Lets hope the FDA has checked them for lead and other toxic components. And do said "toys" come with sanitizers and/or sterilization instructions.

Lots and lots of "gays" doing their hot and heavy things on Internet tube sites but nothing about coin flipping, who is on first, and sanitizers sites?? There must be some "Gaying It For Dummies" books out there somewhere. Hmmm, I wonder if said books/sites have to have FDA and CDC approval??

Is said activity wrong and worthy of a trip to hell? Of course not but to the general heterosexual population it is yucky, unusual and not normal to them. With that mind set, approval by the majority is not always sanctioned in law.

The general population to include many of the voters in California, rightly or wrongly, find gay sexual activities, "unionized" or not, to be "yucky" and unusual and typically associate such activity with the spread of AIDS which is of course wrong. Said AIDS epidemic in the gay male community at the start of the AIDS crises will always remain unfortunately a stigma on the gay community.

And after all of this rhetoric, gay unions simply simplify and somewhat sanitize what are still "yucky" acts caused by a variant gene(s) and/or hormone imbalance. One wonders if stem cell research will find a cure??

Hmmm, would the embryos formed from the sperm of gay guys and the eggs from gay gals make more ethical embryos for this and other types of research?? "

continued below:

Impressive list of gay people who did not let their yucky defect get in the way of being a contribution to society.

Unfortunately, they were not able to contribute to the evolutionary process of DNA improvement via procreation.
And one will never know whether they would have achieved even greater achievements without said defect.

From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, gay sexual activity is still mutual masturbation caused by one or more complex sexual defects. Some defects are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell. Of course not all having these abnormal tendencies, show it outwardly as alluded to in the following synopsis:

From Wikipedia:

" No simple cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, and there is no scientific consensus as to whether the contributing factors are primarily biological or environmental. Many think both play complex roles.[1][2] The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have both stated that sexual orientation probably has multiple causes.[3][4] Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation. These include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. Conclusive proof of a biological cause of sexual orientation would have significant political and cultural implications. [5]"

:o)

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Hi again Lepidopteryx,

It's been a long time.

LEPI: "Societies had laws against murder, rape, theft, etc. long before Judaism or Christianity existed. They weren't copyrighted on the peak of Mt. Sinai."

Whether that is true or not does not answer where these laws originated from, God or man? Were they handed down and pasted on from Adam or Abram or any number of Old Testament saints? Genesis, as well as other Books of the Old Testament point to written accounts long before 1500 BC.

"This is the written account of Adams line..." (Genesis 5:1)

"This is the account of Noah..." (Genesis 6:9)

"This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah's sons, who themselves had sons after the flood..." (Genesis 10:1)

The question is who influenced whom? Since you weren't there and without a divine revelation you can only speculate on possible explanations.

Without a written account or revelation from God none of this matters, none of this makes sense.

Again, without God there is no objective standard for what is good, it is just personal preference. So can you tell me why your subjective opinion should be the standard that someone else "ought" to follow or why you or someone else you know of or have read are "the" expert, the best reference, the ultimate resting point?

LEPI: "It's hard to keep the tribe together and functioning if its members are constantly stealing each other's belongings, making false charges against one another, boffing each other's spouses, raping and killing each other. So it makes perfect sense to make such behaviors taboo for the good of the tribe."

So if a tribe comes along that is stronger, meaner, faster; a tribe that decides that it is pleasurable to kill and rape and steal and lie, and they are going to do this to your tribe, as well as to the weaker members of their own tribe, what objection do you have to that? They are just following their personal preference.

So why is Hitler's Germany wrong in such a way of thinking?

You are always throwing up smoke screens to hide the real issue. I asked similar questions to PaganPlace, CCNL and the likes and all they have is their own subjective opinions on the matter. They have no final, objective reference point. It is just one man's opinion slated against another's.

There is no ultimate meaning in anything they say and nothing of what they say has any eternal value, unless they borrow it from the God who is real and true.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
DANIELINTHELIONSDEN
BORN GAY?

ANS:
No one is born gay, even the APA that endorsed gay lifestyles had to with draw that canard.

“The Washington Times reported:
The human genome finally has been sequenced, and with that, one theory seems to have fallen from favor that of the "gay gene." Ideas about the origins of sexual preferences are reverting to the argument that HOMOSEXUALITY IS A DECISION RATHER THAN AN INHERITED TRAIT.

Edward Stein, a law professor at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York, is leading a movement calling for homosexuals and the groups that support their causes to abandon the "gay gene" theory.

He argues "The Mismeasure of Desire: The Science, Theory and Ethics of Sexual Orientation," it hurts rather than helps their fight for equality. . .Although no study has ever been able to prove that homosexuality is inherited, 35 percent of Americans think it is, according to a recent Harris Interactive poll. The famous "gay gene" study has yet to be reproduced despite attempts to do so.

Former homosexual Anthony Falzarano, director of the National Parents and Friends Christian Ministries, insists people become homosexual through sexual molestation or rape, an absentee father, or an overbearing female influence during childhood.”

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=528376

APA revises 'gay gene' theory
Charlie Butts - OneNewsNow - 5/14/2009 6:30:00 AM
“The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" -- meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are born that way

For decades, the APA has not considered homosexuality a psychological disorder, while other professionals in the field consider it to be a "gender-identity" problem. But the new statement, which appears in a brochure called "Answers to Your Questions for a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality," states the following:

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation."

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
LEPIDOPTERYX
“COMMANDMENTS”
POSTED AUGUST 3, 2009 8:45 AM

IRT:
“Societies had laws against murder, rape, theft, etc. long before Judaism or Christianity existed. They weren't copyrighted on the peak of Mt. Sinai.”

ANS:
The Ten Commandments are the embodiment of the Natural Moral Law (NML). “From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of all men the precepts of the natural law.” They are inscribed on man’s conscience. Of course, every society has an infinity with the NML because it is written by God into human nature. However, that doesn’t make their understanding self-evident. Thus, God instructs His people in His ways, viz. through the NML.

No other civilization had anything comparable to the explicit and implicit depth of the meaning of these Commandments given to man by God. At the time, they weren’t explicitly enforced by any leader per se;, they were enforced by an interacting God both physically and spiritually with His people.

No society had the force of the first three Commandments. The God of these Commandments was monolithic, and unlike the pagan gods, He was a God of Love and Justice.

Besides, adoration, prayer, and sacrifice, God bound all men to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and His Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it."

This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person, and urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are sincere but in error or ignorance with regard to the faith.

Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter and exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees" as well as the Pagans. He revealed the demands of the Commandments. 'You shall not kill.' . . . But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."

When someone asks Him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?" Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets." They must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law. The meaning of God's Commandments pointed toward the relationship of God to man, and a theocentric social order.

The commandments: "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Yes PaganPlace, child abuse is a good analogy. How can being born gay be against the rules? No matter how much you beat or punish a person for being gay, the most they can do to stop the beatings is pretend not to be gay, but they cannot actually choose to be straight anymore than a straight person can choose to be gay.

So this guy, Volkmare, is actually speaking form a position of profound ignorance. when religious people are ctiticized for their beliefs, they always reply that you should not criticize their relious beliefs because you do not understand them. How many times have I heard this complaint? About a million.

Shouldn't that also apply to Christians who are totally and completely ignornant of gay people? Shouldn't Volkmare keep his mouth shut until he finds out the truth for himself?

All he has to do to find out about gay people is just ask them some questions. But he would never do that because he is too busy pouring over obscure Biblical texts to ever speak to one of these people whom he loves, but whose sin is all that he hates.

He says he loves the sinner but hates the sin. Yet, I cannot see how he can love people whom he rejects on every level, out of hand, even to the extent that he would never speak one, or try to find out from them, what they want, and what their lives are like.

And how does one choose ones sexual orientation? Whenever you ask a Christian this question, they invariably change the subject to abortion, and call you a baby killer.

Welcome... to our American ...'faith landscape.' A la Newspeak, which has apparently set to trying to at least make they bylines more controversial than the content, if they can't find a Falwell U hack to spend way too long publicly finding out he's not as smart and well-read as they told him he paid to be....

Can we circle up, now, o 'Faith traditions of America?'

Can we get it together long enough, to, say.... How about, if I can have equal marriage and citizenship under the law... You can stop voting for people who make gun control laws as inconvenient and irrational as possible so you'll be more pissed at the Democrats?

(Yes, it annoys me that you don't want to trust me to have sex without anyone getting hurt while screaming for automatic weapons. We can talk. )

I ask, in America... the point of this board... Is this 'faith?'

Seems to me that the reasons to not be America just keep getting thinner and thinnner.

Maybe Newsweek knows it gets interest, but *maybe,* scuffling about whether or how bad to hurt *me* isn't how any of us could *actually* best honor any Gods who are friends of humanity.

This is a 'Letters to the Editor' page out of control.

Where's. The mechanism for progress?

Of course let's not forget, (sorry if I do,) some 'atheist' helpfully-saying, "None of your Gods exist, you're all the same, I'm not paying attention to you, (please pay attention to me) " :)

DanielintheLionsDen

What part of the 3rd book of Moses – Leviticus 20 Verse 13 do you not understand?

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination…”.

Being a bigot requires intolerance.
I am not intolerant of sinners, for that would be a double standard.

But I will not accept the platform an unrepentant sinner who is trying to discount God's word in order to justify his sinful position.

Tell me: who is being intolerant?

Take a look in the mirror if you don’t know the answer to that one.

Mark
Always seek the truth

It's actually pretty interesting how few people are *here,* actually.

CCNL's basically just saying 'Masturbation' a lot, JJ's as always not sure which politicians and/or pop singers to worship as world salvation before commencing to scream invective against, well, me for being gay and Pagan and the one who listened to him long enough to actually say 'You really actualy aren't making any sense to anyone...'

Then a bunch of Fundies getting pretty boring about ignoring any meaningful discussion they can pretend didn't happen as long as aforementioned spam scrolled it past the average American attention span...

Any more questions?

Volkmare:

"But like a good parent, he will punish those who knowingly break his rules.

Mark
Always seek the truth."

And if the truth happens to be that the 'rules' are arbitrary interpretations of a book that can and has been used to say *anything,* even where it doesn't contradict itself...

Sounds like the very epitome of an abusive parent, actually, 'It's on all of you to enforce a 'Will' that makes no sense, or else you'll suffer more...'

Traditionally taken out on queer kids, in families of that belief, actually.

Funny how this never gets past the playground.

You say so confidently that what you do to others is not you, but rather, 'God,' but still won't own up to the effects of what you do, never mind want to question if your idea of 'God' is even *right* or *supported* or *justifiable* in any way...

Rather you decide that, 'If I'm enforcing His Will,' he must be there, cause otherwise I couldn't face myself being the guy who chooses to do this pointless and harmful persecution of people who aren't hurting anyone...'

Do you count it a 'virtue' accrued to *yourself* in some way, Christian, if you are zealous in oppressing me in the name of saying, 'I knowingly break God's rules,' (which you of course know to the letter)...

Or is that 'God,' too?

Tell me of this 'God' of yours, that so clearly tells me you know about my marriage better than I do... Through ...err, you.

*peeking around your shoulder.*

Funny... I only see you and some corrupt politicians trying to tell me it's diviltry not to pay insurance profiteers more for worse service in the name of a 'free market' lest we become a bunch of Commies who 'dont' care for the poor.'

Damnable poor people. And gays, and, and...

Right?

Maybe you'd feel better if Daniel taught you something about Christianity.

When you talk to *me* it just sounds like you say 'Penis and vagina, God' a lot.

volkmare

Being born gay is not breaking God's rules. It is quite clear to me that you really do not realize that you are quite an insulting and rude guy.

Your personal bigotry is not God's will. This is false. Repeating it over and over does not make it true. Repeat your lies and slander against gay people whom you say you love, a million times, in the name of God, but it will not ever be true, and will not ever be in God's name, but your own.

You may always be seeking the truth, but I think if you ever found it, you would not recognize it.

Ccnl

You should learn to control your babble instinct.
It will be your undoing.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

DanielintheLionsDen

I didn’t say that God hates gay people. I would never say that because it is not true.

I did say that he loves all his children no matter what they do.

But like a good parent, he will punish those who knowingly break his rules.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

For those Born, Bred and Brainwashed in Christianity (only for those eyes that have not seen)

As per those who have looked at the complete historical record of one simple, preacher man, aka Jesus:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology, all male hierarchies and strange banking and funding.

volkmare

The quotations you cited from the Bible to "prove" that God hates gayy people are not new to me. People like you have them memorized and repeat them over and over and over again. To people like you, they are clear, a foundaton of believe, the hope and refuge of salvation.

To me, they are opaque anc cryptic, without local, cultural, or historical context. Your homophobia does not come from these cobbled together verses from the Bible; it was placed in your gut by you mother and father, as your cultural inheritance of bigotry. And then, you seek out non-sense to justify this.

What you are really saying is that God is samll minded and unjust. You are really mistaking Satan for God. That is your confusion, which I cannot help.

It is ironic, though, that you claim a special position as a truth-seeker, yet you persist in spreading lies and false doctrines.

volkmare

The quotations you cited from the Bible to "prove" that God hates gayy people are not new to me. People like you have them memorized and repeat them over and over and over again. To people like you, they are clear, a foundaton of believe, the hope and refuge of salvation.

To me, they are opaque anc cryptic, without local, cultural, or historical context. Your homophobia does not come from these cobbled together verses from the Bible; it was placed in your gut by you mother and father, as your cultural inheritance of bigotry. And then, you seek out non-sense to justify this.

What you are really saying is that God is samll minded and unjust. You are really mistaking Satan for God. That is your confusion, which I cannot help.

It is ironic, though, that you claim a special position as a truth-seeker, yet you persist in spreading lies and false doctrines.

It is all about the "pretty wingie thingies". These myths are important "bricks" in the foundations of Abrahamic religions to include Mormonism. Remove these bricks and the walls of Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca come tumbling down.

We all know that CCNL is a blowhard. :o) I only entertain his/her opinions because it is fun.

He/she will use the bible as an example when it suits his/her platform, and he/she will deny its validity when it doesn’t. Sometimes he/she will even do it in the same breath.

Then when challenged he/she will use some of man’s theories as proof of his positions against the truth of the bible. The thing is, that is the problem with most religions today: they are full of man’s doctrines and not enough of God's. That in its self is probably why he/she is no longer a Christian.

In my mind, the bible is the word of God.
But to those who do not believe as I do, and I feel sorry for them, the bible contains so much wisdom and truth, that it is an excellent guide to life even to those who don’t believe.

Attacks on the validity of scripture have been going on since the first word was recorded. Yet those attacks have all failed in the end for many reasons.

If you believe the bible, those attacks are prompted by the adversary. If you don’t the attacks are led by someone who hasn’t really studied the bible.

In any case, the bible is a book of “truth”.
It is an excellent guide to life.
That is what God wants it to be.

Wither you believe or not is not relevant to its “truth”.
If you do believe it is worth 1000 times more than just the words alone.

If only the world would follow the wisdom of the bible this world would be a much happier place, even if they don’t believe in God.

Mark
Always seek the “truth”.

BTW, ccnl, is it He or She?

PeterHuff:
You borrow from the Judeao-Christian world view when you say that murder, lying, stealing, adultery or anything that harms another human being is evil or wrong.
**************************************************************************************
Societies had laws against murder, rape, theft, etc. long before Judaism or Christianity existed. They weren't copyrighted on the peak of Mt. Sinai.

Regardless of what deity or dieties (if any) you worship, such behaviors tend to have negative effects on the cohesion and survival of a society. It's hard to keep the tribe together and functioning if its members are constantly stealing each other's belongings, making false charges against one another, boffing each other's spouses, raping and killing each other. So it makes perfect sense to make such behaviors taboo for the good of the tribe.

IN REPLY TO CCNL1
“SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

“More than all, that Person’s life and death were so minutely foretold in the Old Testament, and Whose story, as told in the New Testament, so perfectly corresponds with its prophetic delineation in the Old Testament. Therefore, it must be what He claimed to be, viz. the Son of God.

His work, therefore, must be Divine. The Church which He founded must also be Divine. Therefore since the Church is the repository and guardian of His teachings, it must be Devine.

Indeed, we can truly say that for every truth of Christianity, in which we believe Christ Himself is our testimony, we believe in Him because the Divinity He claimed rests upon the concurrent testimony. [That testimony is] of His miracles, His prophecies His personal character, the nature of His doctrine. [More so, we believe because of] the marvelous propagation of His teachings. [Thus, it has came about, even] in spite of its running counter to flesh and blood, the united testimony of thousands of martyrs. [And there is] the stories of countless saints who for His sake have led heroic lives.

The history of the Church herself, since the Crucifixion, and, perhaps more remarkable than any, the history of the papacy from St. Peter to Pius X. show Her validity.

These [Her] testimonies are unanimous; they all point in one direction, they are of every age, they are clear and simple, and are within the grasp of the humblest intelligence. And, as the Vatican Council has said, "the Church herself, is, by her marvelous propagation, her wondrous sanctity, her inexhaustible fruitfulness in good works, her Catholic unity, and her enduring stability, a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefragable witness to her Divine commission" (Const. Dei Filius) . "The Apostles", says St. Augustine, "saw the Head and believed in the Body; we see the Body let us believe in the Head" " [Sermo ccxliii, 8 (al. cxliii), de temp., P.L., V 1143].

IN REPLY TO CCL1
“SCRIPTURE IS THE WORD OF GOD

ANS:
“In the Old Testament considered not as an inspired book, but merely as a book having historical value, we find detailed the marvelous dealings of God with a particular nation to whom He repeatedly reveals Himself; we read of miracles wrought in their favor and as proofs of the truth of the revelation He makes.

We find the most sublime teaching and the repeated announcement of God's desire to save the world from sin and its consequences. And, more than all we find throughout the pages of this book a series of hints, now obscure, now clear, of some wondrous person who is to come as the world's savior.

We find it asserted at one time that he is man, at others that he is God Himself. When we turn to the New Testament we find that it records the birth, life, and death of One Who, while clearly man, also claimed to be God, and Who proved the truth of His claim by His whole life—miracles, teachings, and death, and finally by His triumphant resurrection.

We find, moreover, that He founded a Church which should, so He said, continue to the end of time, which should serve as the repository of His teaching, and should be the means of applying to all men the fruits of the redemption He had wrought.

When we come to the subsequent history of this Church, we find it speedily spreading everywhere, and this in spite of its humble origin, its unworldly teaching, and the cruel persecution, which it meets at the hands of the rulers of this world.

And as the centuries pass we find this Church battling against heresies schisms, and the sins of her own people-nay, of her own rulers. Yet continuing, we see ever the same, promulgating ever the same doctrine, and putting before men the same mysteries of the life, death, and resurrection of the world's Savior.

Moreover, it was He Who had, so She taught, gone before to prepare a home for those who while on earth should have believed in Him and fought the good fight.

But, if the history of the Church, since New-Testament times thus wonderfully confirms, the New Testament itself, and if the New Testament so marvelously completes the Old Testament, these books must really contain what they claim to contain. Viz. they contain Divine revelation.

And more than all, that Person’s life and death were so minutely foretold in the Old Testament, and Whose story, as told in the New Testament, so perfectly corresponds with its prophetic delineation in the Old Testament. Therefore, it must be what He claimed to be, viz. the Son of God.

His work, therefore, must be Divine. The Church which He founded must also be Divine. Therefore since the Church is the repository and guardian of His teachings, it must be Devine.

Before the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Mormon and Baha'ist god, we have the original from mighty Egypt. Bow all you copycats to your creator!!!!

www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . .

Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .

I have not reviled the God.

I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.

I have not done what the God abominates . . .

I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.

I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .

I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.

I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.

I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.

I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...

I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.

I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .

I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.

I have not blocked the God at his processions."

"The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Thus, many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa."

Of course there are many Conservative Jews who believe the Exodus was all myth to begin with:

New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document.

Hi CCNL,

You said to Mark: "Mark, Mark, Mark,
As requested many times, prove that the bible is the word of god.

On the impossibility of the contrary in making sense of anything without God, or without borrowing from the Christian world view on what really is.

You borrow from the Judeao-Christian world view when you say that murder, lying, stealing, adultery or anything that harms another human being is evil or wrong.

The moral question is the question I love to post to all atheists, agnostics, or unbelievers. Without an absolute, objective, universal reference point, a qualitative value cannot be made. All it would be is subjective personal or group preference, nothing more, nothing good or bad in that because there is no ultimate standard.

That is not the way you live your life. You live as though things really matter (and borrow from the Christian viewpoint when you do), that there is a qualitative measure, a final reference point that actually is meaningful.

In a world and universe that is a product of chance there is no ultimate meaning or purpose, just one biological bag of molecules reacting to another biological bag of molecules. What one bag randomly does to another is of no consequence for there is no justice, no truth, no uniformity of nature, no ultimate predictability (things could change tomorrow), no hope for a future.

--- DOWN with OBAMA & CO., comes 2012 and beyond!!!

--- DOWN with OBAMA & CO., comes 2012 and beyond!!!

--- DOWN with OBAMA & CO., comes 2012 and beyond!!!

-Prof. GATES, not Bill Gates, Not Asst. Sec. State Gates.., Must GO To Jail asap For almost (Conspiring) insighting a National & Possibly International (RACE BASED) RIOT!? The TERRORISTS & CO., are LOVE-N THIS!

-
-
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............|"""""""""""""""""""""|......

....|ACTS AGAINST AMERICAN|
......|A-CRYIN-LYING-SHAME|.

-- W O W! The "mistake" (election) is leaching-out Through that African/American GATES like "A FREUDIAN SLIP OF GENUINE PROPHECY"!?? Soo,

"A White Crackers ain't gota Chance
against a Black Cracker" anymore?

What happened to the "Planet of The Apes"?

Mr. OBAMA. Please, like an EX-Friend, Distance yourself from Mr. "Race-GATES", like ye didth with REVrend/Brother Mr. Wrong, ooopps Meant Rev. Jeramiah (Bull-Frog) Mr. Wright!

CCNL

I never heard you request that...

in any case, prove that it is not.
;o)

mark
always seek the truth.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

As requested many times, prove that the bible is the word of god.

CCNL

how can you say that god must bless gay marrage, when there are so many references in the bible against it.

are you saying god is a lier?

mark
always seek the turth.

Mark,
I heard all the "ceremonial law vs moral law" bit when I was Christian. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.
I'm also leery of using as a guide to how to live my life a book whose rules consist in large part of things that came from the writer's dreams or were told to them by disembodied voices. If I lived according to everything I've dreamt, I would have one very bizarre life, and if I started hearing disembodied voices, I would immediately seek out a competent psychiatrist.

Hmmm, the NT says nothing about gay sex? Au Contraire!!! Thou shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife/Husband/Partner with the corollary of Thou Shalt Not Fornicate pertain not only to heterosexual couples but also homosexual couples. This probably is no concern to non-Christians or non-Jews on non-Mormons but it should be a major concern to those religious types who believe in the teachings of the OT, NT, the Commandments and all of its corollaries.

So we have a Christian/Jewish/Mormon God who supposedly created all of us to include homosexuals. Said God is therefore responsible for the defective gene/mind-set that causes homosexuality. One might conclude from this that the Christian/Jewish/Mormon God would therefore approve same-sex marriages since that is the only sin-free state where any type of couple-sex can be performed.

And just a reminder, reiteration is good for the brain and the soul!!!

Lepidopteryx

OK, here it is (the shellfish thing).

LAW OF MOSES

The name assigned to the whole collection of written laws given through Moses to the house of Israel, as a replacement of the higher law that they had failed to obey. The Law of Moses consisted of many ceremonies, rituals, and symbols, to remind the people frequently of their duties and responsibilities. It included a law of carnal commandments and performances, added to the basic laws of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism in water, and remission of sins were part of the law, as were also the Ten Commandments. Although inferior to the fullness of the gospel, there were many provisions in the Law of Moses of high ethical and moral value that were equal to the divine laws of any dispensation. The law of carnal commandments and much of the ceremonial law was fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The law functioned under the Aaronic Priesthood and was a preparatory gospel to bring its adherents to Christ.

Gal. 3: 24-26;
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

As you can see, some of the law was carried over as they are equal to the divine law (things like the 10 commandments, ect.), and others were no longer needed (not eating shellfish, ect.)as Jesus has fulfilled the Law of Moses.

Not so vague anymore, is it?

Mark
Always seek the truth.

lepidopteryx

Only a fool would dismiss the words of God.

However, when God changes the rules, I will listen to him.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Lepidopteryx
I am at work so I don’t have time to look it up. But he did say that he is the new master and his laws replace the old masters laws, referring to the laws of Moses which include what the Israelites (jews) can and cannot eat.
It is vague, but it is there.
**************************************************************************************
Vague indeed. Jesus anulled the laws governing what you could eat, but not how you could knock boots - er, sandals. Funny how somethng so vague gets used to decide what passages of supposedly inerrant scripture can be dismissed as outdated and no longer relevant, and other passages on the same page must be adhered to forever by everyone, whether or not you even believe any of it.

Hmmm, the NT says nothing about gay sex? Au Contraire!!! Thou shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife/Husband/Partner with the corollary of Thou Shalt Not Fornicate pertain not only to heterosexual couples but also homosexual couples. This probably is no concern to non-Christians or non-Jews but it should be a major concern to those religious types who believe in the teachings of the OT, NT, the Commandments and all of its corollaries.

So we have a Christian God who supposedly created all of us to include homosexuals. Said God is therefore responsible for the defective gene/mind-set that causes homosexuality. One might conclude from this that the Christian God would therefore approve same-sex marriages since that is the only sin-free state where any type of couple-sex can be performed.

And just a reminder, reiteration is a fundamental learning method.

Lepidopteryx

I am at work so I don’t have time to look it up. But he did say that he is the new master and his laws replace the old masters laws, referring to the laws of Moses which include what the Israelites (jews) can and cannot eat.
It is vague, but it is there.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

OK
Danialintheloinsden

Read it for yourself:

Gen. 19: 5
bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Lev. 18: 22
(Lev. 20: 13) Thou shalt not lie with mankind . . . it is abomination.

Deut. 23: 17
there shall be no . . . sodomite of the sons of Israel.
Isa. 3: 9
(2 Ne. 13: 9) declare their sin as Sodom.

Rom. 1: 27
men . . . burned in their lust one toward another.
1 Cor. 6: 9
nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
1 Tim. 1: 10
them that defile themselves with mankind.
Jude 1: 7
as Sodom and Gomorrha . . . going after strange flesh.
2 Ne. 13: 9
doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom.
See also Gen. 13: 13; Gen. 18: 20; Isa. 3: 9; Ezek. 16: 50; 2 Tim. 3: 3; 2 Pet. 2: 10; 2 Ne. 9: 40.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

I mean, of course, Lepi, the below example means it's OK to have bacon and shellfish, but when it comes to according fellow humans basic dignity? ... Obviously Jesus was wrong and Paul was 'righteous.'

Actually, Lepi, on this:

"Mark,
I don't recall reading that Jesus said anything about dietary laws one way or the other, much less issued a moratorium on them."

Actually, the story goes that when Jesus was confronted by some legalistic types about dietary and other purity laws prevalent among some sects of Judaism at the time, he said he wasn't concerned with what goes into one's mouth, but rather, what came out.

But this Christ is someone we never hear about when 'Christians' want an excuse to hate and hurt.

Hmmm, "New World" reminds one of former probability waves???

C C N L:
Whoever You'ar This below is for your-Eyes only or the likes whom never seen:

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.../'/ / / /" /_\
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... A.O.

CCNL

Four percent of the adult population in America would come out to about 6 million people. How con-VEEN-ient.

I wonder what the final solution to this problem could possibly be? Can you think of anything?

DanielTLH,

You noted, "Gay people exist abundantly. Everybody knows one; everybody is related to one."

vs.

"In the United States, according to exit polling on 2008 Election Day for the 2008 Presidential elections, 4% of electorate self-identified as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, the same percentage as in 2004.”[74]

It seems that a major hangup in this discussion is the word 'marriage'. I wish we would go the route of other countries in that to have a union recognized by the government as a binding contract, you must have a civil ceremony. If you then want a union recognized by the church or yor choice, you follow their procedures. Get the churches out of the business of ratifying civil contracts. What a simple solution.

Volkmare

In the previous comment, I remarked that people like seem hobbled your wrong beliefs.

That choice of words made me think of you a little differently. I had regarded you with some anger and hostility. But now I see you as hobbled, carrying a heavey burden, a burdern of false beliefs.

It is a little sad. I wish there were some way to relieve of these burderns, but all you have to do is lay them aside; there is no value to them at all.

When you start to "love" your neighbor,without qualifcation, I am sure your outlook on life will be better.

volkmare

You are wrong. There is nothing at all in the Bible on what is now known as gay sexual orientation. Sexual orientation was not a concept that people even thought about in those days. References about a man lying with a man fall under the category of "prudishness" about sexuality, in general.

Human sexuality is not well understood, even today. The ancient texts of the Bible are in fact EXTREMELY primitive on matters of sex. For example, it is now well-known and universally underatood that a happy sex life is part of over-all good health and human fulfillment.

What you are seeking to promote are false doctrines, which spread lies about gay people. Instead of signing your name with the closing "always seek the truth," why don't you seek the truthk, yourself,, instead of repeating and spreading lies?

You and people like you seem mentally hobbled by your slavish attachment and devotion to religious texts which are obviously wrong, and don't make sense. Surely you don't attribut such stupidity and ignornace to God, do you? Because that is what you are implying.

What you need to do is relax, and enjoy your own life, and not worry about how to interfere, block, or limit the lives of others.

The politically conservative Religionists seem more and more backward looking, wraped up in bitterness and hostility towards their fellow man, despite the very exacting obligations directed by Jesus Christ to "love your neighbors."

I am saying these things to help you understand how wrong you are and how far astray you have gone. But even if you never understand, you must at least come to terms with the cold and hard facts that gay people exist upon the earth, even if they are God's mistakes, and they are rapidly acquiring all of the rights that they should have and deserve, the same as you have, and that your persaonl sense of superiority over them is not going to change a thing, but is in fact your problem, inside of your own head.

Mark,
I don't recall reading that Jesus said anything about dietary laws one way or the other, much less issued a moratorium on them. All I recall reading is about Peter (I think it was Peter) having a dream in which God said it was okay for him to order the lobster. How do we know it wasn't just a dream?
Jesus said that a married man and a woman should cleave to one another, but he didn't say that was the only option.
All of what is specifically said about homosexuality (and heterosexuality, for that matter) in the NT comes not from Jesus, but from Paul, who wasn't thrilled with the idea of ANYBODY having sex.

Lepidopteryx

References to God’s position on same sex unions are prolific throughout the bible.

The references to what the Jews can and cannot eat were rescinded by Jesus. Besides they were a test of faith in preparation to his arrival. Those rules no longer apply.

However same sex rules were not rescinded by Jesus, in fact they were continued and clarified.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Gay people exist abundantly. Everybody knows one; everybody is related to one.

Failure to recognize and accommodate their existence is a striking dysfunction in the world today, and especially within the Republican Party and the politically conservative religious groups. This dysfunction needs to be addressed.

There are millions of gay people in the world. In the past they have been mute. Now, more and more of them are finding a voice. Now, gay people speak up; erely speaking up for oneself is the "problem." And it is a "problem" that will not go away.

Which brings me to the subject of sexual orientation. In the progress of humanity, sexual orientation is now viewed differently than it was in the past. The younger generation seems to be transformed in their consideration of sexual orientation and homosexuality. To them it is just part of life. Alot of young people even regard a gay person as an interesting, even exotic type of person to know, instead of as freak or an unacknowledged subject of taboo.

The old taboo against gays is gone, and it can never be brought back. That is the progress of history. There is no tactic that anyone can devise that will undo this fact.

Even if the Constitution is amended to ban gay marriage, that will just mean more turmoil and distress in the resistance of progress, until the amendment is repealed. I believe this firmly, and therefore am not particularly afraid of the rude and aggressive anti-gay propoganda of politically conservative relgious groups.

SCKEY47:

The same book that contains prohibitions against homosexual conduct contains prohibitions against eating pork and shellfish, wearing clothing woven from mixed fibers, and planting multiple crops in the same field. Christians ignore those passages, consuming bacon-wrapped shrimp, wearing poly-cotton "WWJD" t-shirts, and growing tomatoes and eggplant in the same vegetable garden.

I, too, have read the Bible and am a Christian. Jesus said "Judge not, lest you be judged, Condemn not lest you be condemned". You can read whatever you want into your religious life and practice your religion in whatever way you choose. Marriage in this country and in much of the rest of the world is a contract between two people which protects them and their families. Whether you agree or not with same sex marriage is your prerogative but to disallow the benefits of marriage to any group of people is not Christian. You can refuse to marry them in your church but they should not be denied the rights that other married people have.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion.

Or in todays modern translation:

Lev 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Lev 18:23 Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

From that Mrs. Brooks Thistlethwaite I don't get the notion that God blesses LGBT marriage or relationships. In fact I think its quite the opposite. Its funny though how with the more modern the translation of the Bible that people are starting to leave out verses like this that don't allow them to put God into the box that they want Him to be in. Marriage is an institution that God created on the sixth day of creation when He created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. God thought so highly of marriage that He gave man marriage before He gave them the Seventh-day Sabbath!!! There are only negative things about "gay" or "lesbianism" in the Bible. The above verse is one. Here are a few more:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

From the name Sodom we get our word sodomy which I believe up until recently was a crime. God doesn't look to kindly on the sin, but He loves the sinner. Don't get that confused with God loving and blessing homosexuality.

I mean, homophobes. You *talk* as though somewhere in your world gay people not being hurt by law somehow constitutes blanket 'permission' somehow to start 'yielding to temptations' regarding goats and little ones. Like if you couldn't spend your attention bashing *us,* you figure 'people' would instead do stuff like that.

This is scary, ...Especially if you *went* to Catholic school and saw these things in action.

If you're that scared of the idea of me around my own kid, me not being able to *go on record as the one who comes to kick your butt if you mess with my kid* ...Does not help your fears and projections.

All it means is that if *you're* getting a freak on, my options are limited.

Dig?

I mean, homophobes, I don't think you quite comprehend the full depth and measure of how much it freaks us out when you claim that only people like *you* who see children and only think 'some gay person won't be virtuous enough to not molest them'... are supposed to be able to be anywhere near *our* kids all day.

I know you have fun imagining all manner of things, but do you have the *slightest* idea how F'n sketchy it is of *you* ...thinking that way, do demand we don't have 'access' to our *own* kids?

Gods.

"The struggle for marriage equality for lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and transgendered Americans needs many minds and hearts working together to effect change."

Or, the people who have a problem with it butting out. If their message is so holy, they needn't hurt innocent people to try and promote it.

Especially if in the process, they make people like Dwight Collins shudder that somehow not making marriage law unfair *gas* Somehow 'gives access to children.' 'Access?' For what? Whose children? Our *own,* maybe?

What are you implying, Mr. Collins?

That, like my daughter, once, it was better for her 'protection' to wait around school for hours, until someone gets too tired, and set to find her way home after dark than get a ride from one of her *mothers?*

'Access?'

My *Gods,* man. Like most perps of what you imply aren't men in legal straight marriages, to begin with.

Tell you this, when some man's beating his straight partner's kids on the street in the actual instance, it's not exactly you paragons of swinging-bits-normalcy who are the ones to say boo about it.

For 'Access' to *my* kid, vocal homophobes with such imaginings in their hearts ain't exactly my first choice, no, sir.

the way I see it...
marriage gives acceptance to gays in the eyes of the world...
it opens access of gays to children...
it opens the thought that if we allow gay marriages and that all people that love each other should be able to marry that others with different situations should be also able to marry...
legal unions should cover the legal issues...
lets leave marriage out of this...
it needs to be protected...

The existence of gay people upon the earth tests the instruction and obligation of Jesus, that says, to love your neighbor, love your enemy, do good to those that hate you, for if you love only those that love you, then what is the credit in that?
Anti-gay Christians fail the test. On the central theme of Christianity, they are ignorant and blank; instead they are eaten-up with their false doctrines, which are arrayed, with willful, direct, and true aim at the heart of Jesus and towards the destruction of Christian values.
Anti-gay Christians have heard false doctrines vilifying and demonizing gay people for so long that they have lost the ability to think for themselves. Their church has stolen their free will. They are but drones, listening to and repeating false doctrines and lies about how wicked and evil gay people are, when in fact, gay people are not wicked or evil; gay people are good.
Being gay is not a sin. Being gay is not bad. Gay people do not need to justify their existence to religious conservatives.

In Roman times they used the word "maritare" for a simple non-religious mutual agreement between am man and a woman (or a female teen). We are not sure if maritare was also used for a same-sex union, please someone help me here. The modern english word "marriage" derives from "maritare".

SS marriage is a civil right, but it is not a religious right. Sorry. I'll concede on the equality for all, but I definitely don't think religion should be forced to change for this. Might as well force the church to accept abortion.

Alex511

please read my first post on this blog

mark
always seek the truth.

fr tote:

>...It is sad to see views such as yours. It is the epitome of religious confusion that grips mankind to this very day. ...

No, what's truly "sad" is to see those who claim to be "Christians" showing up, UNINVITED, at Pride festivals, etc, screaming, wailing and shrieking like banshees their anti-gay garbage.

As a gay Christian woman, I married my WIFE last year in a lovely ceremony. While our minister could not perform the ceremony, she was there as an invited guest, and we feel that God is in the center of our marriage.

Hmmm, Marriage: Sacred Rite
or Civil Right?

Both!!! (if you are heterosexual). There is another rite/right for homosexuals i.e. Mutual Masturbation (as noted by a simple Google/Bing search).

And we see another "ivri" has returned from the land of probability waves!!!

I don't want any religious acceptance or ceremony. I want a civil ceremony and all the rights afforded all other married people. Keep your bible and your church. I've no use for them.

Ms. Thistlethwaite

It is sad to see views such as yours. It is the epitome of religious confusion that grips mankind to this very day. Does God love homosexuals? An emphatic yes. Does he sanction marriage between homosexuals? An emphatic no. The heart of the matter is that man has tried to interpret God (and the bible) in their own way. Mans way leads to destruction. Scripture is clear. We, as a society, are on that precarious path as many past societies have gone and, when they embraced homosexuality to a greater degree, the demise of their society was not far behind. You see, God and Jesus Christ are the same yesterday, today and forever, as the book of Hebrews shows. It is we who change. It is we who deny God's omnipotence. We see the bible as God allowing things that we think should not be allowed. Mankind does not see it as a chronology of our mistakes and departures from the laws of God. We did it our way. He had the perrogative to go along with it any way He desired. It was us who needed to learn lessons. We certainly havent learned much yet in many respects...especially in regard to the scanctity and purpose for a union between a man and a woman. Once again, human reasoning (what may says it best, not best) comes into play. And once again, destruction looms (there is a way that seems right unto a man...but the end thereof is death (destruction))

Best regards

The lack of commitment of marriage in America is having an adverse effect on the family so that society as a whole is moving in a negative direction. America’s eventual downfall will come as a result of the weakening of a God sanctioned marriage relationship. Why is it that we can’t learn from history? Satan has won a great victory here. Too bad people can’t see what’s really happening.

"I've waged my own little civil rights struggle as an ally for gay Americans in my own ministry for several years now."

"God is there in that relationship whether the people committing their lives to one another are gay or straight. God is there whether either church or state recognize it."

"I think God does bless gay marriages and I will be proud one day to stand in a church and say to the lesbian, gay, bi-sexual or transgendered couple in front of me ..."

----

This would be all fine as a state actor or an activist. As a christian minster however, one would expect these claims to be supported by scriptural exegesis and hermeneutics. You cannot put God in the middle of a gay-lesbian-transgendered marriage relationship if He has not placed himself there.

God instituted marriage as a part of creation. Jesus reinforced this in the NT. Nowhere in holy scripture do we find divine endorsement of homosexuality. In fact, in many places it is amply argued that God views this as an abomination.

The opinions expressed by SBT are fine as those of a private citizen but as a so-called servant of God, she needs to do her homework.

If you want to give a defense of gay marriage as a christian minister, you need to give a scriptural defense of this position. Otherwise, your claims have no weight as a christian spiritual leader.

God is interested in human happiness, but if one reads scripture long enough, one will eventually come to a few conclusions:

1. Right and Wrong are not relative concepts, subject to modern reinterpretation.

2. God is intensely interested in human character, much more so than He is in accomodating all our predelictions and inclinations, which we are told, bend toward the sinful.

3. SBT's analysis seems to rely on the subtext that 'God is Love'. This is true, but it does not permit us to ignore what He says He expressly hates.

BTW, for some balance, a liturgy for the blessing of heterosexual unions outside of a marriage relationship is as objectionable to God as a liturgy LGBT marriage, for the same reason: it is wrong.

So, on the one hand Thistlewaite argues that marriage is a not a spiritual or religious institution but a legal contract, and uses this distinction to bolster her argument that gay marriage should be supported. On the other hand, she argues that God is indeed at the center of every marriage, at the center of family life. That seems to make marriage not only political and social but also religious. Which is it? Is marriage religious or legal?

Of the "religious folk" who oppose gay marriage, most Christians have not tried to sidestep the fact of God in order to set up their argument against same-sex marriage but have rather made him and his self-revelation the grounds of their argument unless those arguments have been based on some sort of natural law. Indeed, Christians contend that God instituted marriage, that Jesus affirmed it, and legal policies have then traditionally been constructed to protect it. Whatever arguments opponents of same-sex marriage have made against it, it has rarely been the case that God has been absent from them. The only distinction is the nature of a marriage, i.e. its being constituted by the emotional, physical, and spiritual union of a man and a woman. One could just as easily argue from a Christian perspective that it is those who would redefine the nature of marriage who must sidestop God, at least the God of Israel, who revealed himself fully and finally in the historical person of Jesus Christ, in order to do so.

I was reading Wright in Time earlier. The chap claims the logic in the Bible is wrong. He has it all decoded. God has a funny sense of humor. I'm not sure about BHO and the MSM racket. Some of us are cursed more than others. Others are blessed. My little friend is happy going to the beach. Life's a beach and a beach is logical. my old pal landed on a beach in France. There were no girls and lots of dead guys. All gave some and some gave all. It's was like Special Olympics, or something. It's always the something. Be nice.

I agree that if you believe in God, you can’t “check that belief at the door”.

It logically follows that if you believe in God as a just God, you then must also believe everything he says is true and just.

Throughout the bible, God is very consistent on his position towards gay and lesbian relationships as a just God must be.

However, if you choose to ignore the numerous references to the subject in the bible, then you are “checking your belief at the door”. Or, in the words I prefer, you have a faith of convenience: you follow what is easy and convenient to your feelings and you ignore what is hard or goes against your feelings.

I have associates that follow the same path as you, and they are good people that God loves, but that doesn’t mean that God likes it.

Yes, God loves all his children, even the criminals (no reflection upon yourself), as a good parent would. But also as a good parent, he will punish those who knowingly do not follow his rules.

After all, he is not the kind of parent that child services were established for.

If you believe in God, read your bible, evaluate your situation and ask God, your heavenly father, for guidance.

Mark
Always seek the truth.