Courageous Muslims Should Be Supported

if you truly support courageous muslims- go to ISLAMICA and read the letter to the pope from the 38 respected muslim scholars who wrote a response-

everyone says they wish there were moderate muslims and would support them if they found them-
its not hard at all-

if in the interest of learning for oneself-
read and see for yourself what is the beliefs-

let muslims define themselves- peace

Please visit www.whatthewestneedstoknow.com
It's an examination of Islam, violence, and the fate of the non-Muslim world. Islam successfully spread from Arabia east to Persia and beyond and west via North Africa to Spain. It spread easily through vestiges of the Roman Empire (Byzantium)and the Persian Empire, two corrupt and decaying empires. In Europe Islam was finally stopped at the gates to Vienna and at Tours, France. Its success was attributed to a number of factors. First Islam demands dedication to Allah aka Muhammed. Islam is a simpler religion to follow than Judaism or Christianiy although it borrows heavily from both, especially Judaism. But like Christianity and unlike Judaism it has spread itself via violence and deceit. In 2006 we find that most global conflicts involve Muslims and nonMuslims. The Muslim manifest destiny was and is to conquer the world for Muhammed and Islam. At the moment it may very well succeed since Western culture and many other nonMuslim cultures are corrupt and/or decaying. Islam is very attractive to many millions who have few possessions and salvation can be achieved only through submission to Muhammed and Islam. It does not bode well for us who are not Muslim.

Quite a few persons are criticizing Susan for either painting Muslims as violent or offering no real solutions.

Somehow they manage to ignore the point she's making in the article - the Pope, a Christian, is no one to be criticizing Muslims. Numerous Popes and the Catholic Church as an institution often promoted violence and repression and that is why Popes, who are "infallible," should not be taken seriously. However, it is correct to point out that many self-proclaimed Muslims are committing violence in the name of Islam, whether you think they're justified or not in claiming that they are interpreting Islam correctly.

Her solution, if you read her columns on a regular basis, is secularism. She is associated with the Center for Inquiry which is sponsoring a an international forum for secularists of Islamic societies St. Petersburg Hilton, St. Petersburg, Florida, March 3-5, 2007.

What are you doing?

I see that many people have attacked Susan and the "ideals of the faculty lounge" as elitist and out of the mainstream. OK, the secular persons are a minority in this country, but so what? It wasn't so long ago that most people believed the sun revolved around the flat earth! And, those who dared suggest otherwise were persecuted. As long as a person has reasonable/rational arguments, then it's a contribution to the dialogue and to further understanding. But, the currency of understanding must be reason and evidence, not citations from a holy book or reference to the unproven supernatural. Otherwise I have to insist that you must take my word for everything I say, because Zeus (the god of gods) has revealed the truth to me!

Yet, those quick to condemn do not tolerate any challenge to the absolute truth they think they have captured. That's why secularism and modernity pose a grave threat to dogma. The much-maligned liberals and secularists know more about religion than those who profess their absolute devotion to their faith. The more a person is a fanatic, the more ignorant of his faith he is. [Boot camp for the Bible-illiterate fundies: http://www.alternet.org/story/44934]

I know the fundies can cite lots of verses and edicts from the holy book, but they only know what's convenient. I mean, if those books are the word of God who's to say a passage is more valid than the next? Those holy books were written by people who had limited knowledge of the world around them and they were also misogynists. So, it's pick and choose from the markeplace of religious fiction.

Is it snobbish to debunk superstition? Is it elitist to promote reason, knowledge, and scientific inquiry? And, if the educated elites scorn ignorance and uncritical thinking, the difference about this "elite club" is that, unlike other elite clubs, it's inclusive! We welcome free thinkers! But, leave your superstitions at the door please.

We are here, it's just that moderation doesnt make good copy. I'm not sure where you're looking for a moderate voice. Try your local mosque and dialogue with just about anymuslim you meet. You will be heartened at the abundance of the vociferous and active. And bravely outspoken. peace

I'm another book-smart liberal who thinks Susan is right on. While I cringe at Christian dogma (no birth control for all you African AIDS victims), the apparent extremism of Muslim belief scares the crap out of me (as far as I know the christians aren't trying to blow up buses and hunting down cartoonists).

The only peaceful solution for the world is the ascendance of Muslim moderation. But I just don't see it. The hijab is banned in French schools and mobs take to the streets, yet there appears to be NO Muslim outcry what-so-ever when bomb-strapping psychopaths obliterate a subway train, pizza parlor, etc. Just a parade for the "martyr".

Susan, you're right, but where exactly is this "courageous minority"?

Dear J. Aguilar,

Just take a glimpse to your comment,it seems to me every words you wrote are right and I "ALMOST" agree with you.
But over here we are talking about religions and their path...If you don't mind, please review your Western Civilisation Lessons in any High School and you will see what I want to comment on your comments.Centuries ago,when the Europeans were still living in barbarous way comparing with Arabians Muslims living with all their LUXURIES (High living level),I can not use that part of time as my knowledge to assume that The Arabians Muslims are more Civilian or the Europeans are more barbarous,specially at this time of the 21rst century.We(Vietnameses) know that a goup of Americans GI(LieutenantKelly'sPlatoon) killing alot of innocents Vietnameses at Que Son Viet Nam but we can not conclude that The US ARMFORCES are barbarous and we start burning American Flags? or try to kill as much as Americans we can to protect our Nation? in the name of WHO? Our ancesters? of Budha? (90% of Vietnamese are Buddhist)...You know why our people did not react blindly and in fanatic way. The way you comment that make me think you might coclude that we are Buddhist but not.You said that just put One Christian one Buddihst or one Muslim in one room to see who advocates peace (What kind of experimental lesson you want all of us to learn?)Asking means answering.

Susan:

It most certainly that you are dishonestly characterizing the Pope as "throwing stones". It is just deplorable that your dribble is circulated for comment. Your article is demonstrative of the pablum that we must endure now days.

Geez gang, I must be one of those book smart liberals. All along I thought I was a conservative. Silly me.

Jay Sanders, name that which is more violent than hell. Jesus threatens the little children with the fires of hell. Burning people at the stake was just operation head start.

Victoria, what the Quran advocates is in the opinion of the reader that varies to suit the particular situation. Susan simply pointed out that Christianity does exactly the same thing using the Bible. Have you seen http://www.hoax-buster.org a conservative web site I think.

Michael, if they decided to burn someone at the stake would you come to see it? OK, how much would you pay for a ticket? It was only a scattered handful of Christians involved in the Inquisitions, just the pope all in between down to the fellow who only came to church at Christmas.

Susan, well said.

Both Christianity and Islam have advocated violence for religious ends (even though Christians have killed far more in staggering numbers than Muslims have visited on those who they've conquered). I'm surprised that those who advocate "peace" gravitate toward such violent religions. But aside from that, I'm surprised by the demands of Christians that Muslims to accept dissenters when Christians themselves when through centuries of butchering those who dissented within their own ranks. You have to only look at the recent "civil war" in Ireland to see what Christianity (Catholics and Protestants) has gone through. It seems to me that both demand acceptance and conversion from the other, and both are willing to kill the other to achieve their ends. I mean look in the United States--here you have fundamentalist Christians pushing their own beliefs, even violently, against those who do not believe in their same doctrine. Put a Buddhist and a Christian (or Muslim) in the same room and see which one advocates peace, and which one advocates the burning of the other for idolatry.

Bottom line is this:

Mohammed advocated violence, Christ did not.

Muslims who have a violent reaction to the Pope reciting a 14th century text saying that Muslims are violent SIMPLY prove the point.

The Qu'an is emphatic in its condemnation of terrorism and violence. These things are not the "real"islam and no one is pretending they are.
One who commits suicide goes to hell in islamic theosophy. There is no pretense of complicity on this subject. Such a sweeping statement does a disservice to the people you are claiming to support. Even the use of the term "dissenting muslims" implies that they are not the norm. But most muslims everywhere condemn these actions so if they constitute the majority how can one dissent and agree with the majority. I am surprised to find this view on a site that i thought was to be an open dialogue for tolerance and understanding, while this seems to be a thinly veiledaccusation against muslims, that the majority of us are condoning violence and extremism. I am a pacifist and my views are representative of the many mosques and communities I've spoken to all over America. Maybe you just werent aware that one may interpert your statements this way. See? We all learn tolerance .Yay! peace

Susan, susan,susan,

Once again the book smart liberals think they know everything.
Yes those who commit acts of violance represent a small part of any religon.
Also, the trails that the catholic church has recently gone through and yes has gone through in the past represent a small part too. The unfortunate thing about it is this is what the public believes, because that is all they are shown. The media doesn't show the thousands for Men and women, Preists, brothers, decaon and nun that have over the years dedicated their lives to helping the poor and disadvantaged. The media only shows the bad ones, the ones who should have never been in any religous order. The media only shows those individuals that have been curroupted be evil individuals who prevert thier religion.

You are basically implying that the majority of muslims are violent and extreme. This is not true. peace

what is this woman smoking? She should share.

I'd like to know exactly what Susan and those are going to do to "support" liberal Muslims. That statement is ridiculous and gratuitous. She probably "supports" a free Tibet, too. Maybe they will wear buttons on their labels or buy organic dates from liberal Arabs. Or maybe have a folk festival/arab dance to raise funds and concsiousness. The real problem is that Susan does not like religious people, period. Their view of the world is distasteful to her, so she negates it and pretends that the values of the university faculty lounge can replace the faith of millions around the world, which, for better or worse comforts them, animates them to acts of love and charity, as well as intolerance and cruelty. Does Susan even know anyone who really practices Islam or Christianity? Incidentally, I am not religious, but I do not disdain religious people and expect them to "liberalize' their beliefs to suit me. I just want to be free not to follow those beliefs. That is the real challenge facing the post-modern world.

The Pope is a dope!