Disagree With Me And You're a Bad Jew

cremule polymeric malappointment cannibalistic lionism scissorer siegmund sponson
http://www.infomi.com/county/oceana/ >Oceana County - InfoMI
http://www.media-akita.or.jp/akita-inu/akita-inuE.html

"I cannot help but reflect upon the fact that all of this blood is being shed over the right to occupy a particular piece of land supposedly given by God to two different peoples in two different sacred books."

Actually that is not so. Most Jews in Israel are secular. At some point people must accept what is and stop killing and destroying in an attempt to turn back the clock of history. It can't be done. Over sixty years is long enough for that attempt.

Can you be critical of Muslims without being anti-Islamic?

Israel often resorts to violence instead of diplomacy in dealing with its neighbors. But then again, only three Arab countries have diplomatic relations with Israel, making it kind of hard to talk. In fact, not only do most Arab countries not have diplomatic relations, they outright refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. Hamas, the political party/terrorist group that the Palestinians voted to represent them, is among those who do not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.

In the absence of a peace agreement with the Palestinians, Israel is moving unilaterally to barricade the people of the West Bank behind a 30-foot high concrete wall for reasons of security. This wall will limit trade, keep Palestinians from many good paying jobs they now hold in Israel, and otherwise limit the Palestinian’s freedom of movement. But then again, Israeli Jews are not strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up Arab women and children in front of their homes on the West Bank.

Israel has illegally held most of the West Bank for more than 40 years. But then again, the West Bank has been used at least twice as a Jordanian staging ground for military invasions of Israel (1948 and 1967). Most of the suicide bombers now killing Jewish civilians either live in the West Bank or travel through it to get to their targets.

So why do I find it hard to condemn Israel?

The definition of Jew in Poland, as far as I can objectively suspect is somebody who is rich, influential and have a certain look called Jewishness. When I was a foreign student coming from Vietnam for study, it strucked me that Jews are supposed to be everywhere, but nobody have ever presented himself/herself to me as a Jew. To this day, I believe Jew is a imaginary definition of a class of superhuman that control everything from the Nobel prizes to economic indicators :-)

Jihadist

To be anti-neocon is to be a good person.

Sorry, but in my second paragraph it should have read "As I write this a perfect example of my argument that comes to mind..."

Rehana,

Sorry to disagree with you but "Humanity at large" does NOT believe in "the same one God". Hinduism, Buddism, Wiccan, Zoroastran ... the list of humanity with a different belief in a supreme being is extremely long. Personally I have been studying comparative religions (on my own, and have taught a class in this at a religious institution) for at least 20+ years. During my studies I have grown to believe in a dual godhead, both male and female (there is even a theory among many students of relgion the Jesus and Mary were really a priest and priestess of an older Egyptian belief system).

As I write this a perfect example of my argument would be the Bogomils and/or Cathars. These people, totally repressed and almost exterminated by the Roman Catholic Church believe(d) that the god that was predominant at the time was really the evil one. They believed (as did the Gnostics) that there was an even greater power than believed by the majority.

The problem with any organized religion is it was organized for the advantage of its leaders, and if the lay person gets something out of it (like peace of mind) that is only secondary to most religious leaders.

Godess Bless

I posted the 7:36 AM post to Not So Intelligent Person. Forgot to put my name on it - Not So Intelligent!

Not So Intelligent Person,

Thanks for your post above. Do you really think the answer to the two questions could be "NO"?

Whatever your answer, I doubt it took you more than ten seconds to reach it.

Best wishes.

Humanity at large believes in the same one God and no religion preaches violence.
Religion is between an individual and God only.
Why make it an issue?
God has mentioned two kind of people in His Book.
1.Those who fear God and help others.
2.Those who spread violence and go after wealth and power.
God forbids violence,massacares,murders and suicides.
Why make everything complicated?
Live and let live in Peace.
Share the world with love.
Stop all violence,wars and whatnot that is breaking the world---stop,and make the world.
Unite as God asks, not divide.
Remember God is the JUDGE not you or me.
Life is sacred ,so dont take life,save it as God asks.

Thank you for advancing reasoned and humane values, Miss Jacoby.

I had the pleasure to listen to Alfred Grosser, the godfather of Franco-German reconciliaton, who happened to be Jewish. He very much agreed with you.

On the other hand, it's difficult to say anything about the Middle East without being self-righteous. Fear is a powerful motivator and usually feeds more violence. That may not be ethically acceptable but it is only too human.

When the Iraq debacle is only a memory and the Palestinian people can earn a living then there might be peace after all. Who would have predicted Franco-German reconciliation in 1941?

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together

Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
Source http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

I wonder what happens when readers here see "Concerned's" repeated piece on the lack of archeological evidence for some of the major events in the Hebrew Bible.

Perhaps you don't think it’s credible? Or don't bother checking it out? Maybe you don’t think it’s particularly relevant that Jewish archeologists and the Conservative Jewish hierarchy accept this startling findings? Maybe you discount it because it seems strange that you’d learn about something that big in a venue like this? Or maybe it’s that you “hear” the information but can’t process it because it goes against everything you’ve ever known?

I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on this. When I first heard about that article (on another “On Faith” thread), I immediately googled the author (respected and prolific journalist on middle east issues), and later stopped by a Conservative Jewish Temple on Friday night to see the book and find the reference myself, which I did – a big section on Biblical Archeology.

Evie,

You wrote, "What troubles me are the times when people are blocked in their careers or actually lose their positions because of the actions of right-wing Jewish organizations who disagree with them."

You must be talking about the communist, Jewish, atheist conspiracy of international bankers; you know, the ones who control the world's media and finance. I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble with them too. Unfortunately, you will never work again.

Torah is (and was, historically) important-- not for any factual statements or putative statements as to the existence, ematations, or pronouncements (v'omer elohim) of an invistible god, but for the idea of a god and the ethos that created a people and the rules for living together if in the name of that ethos, which could be called God.
Other aspects of the Torah are powereful as ways of seeing important aspects of the world. An example would be the creation myth: out of nothing or worse (tohu v'bohu) something can be created. (BUT not necessarily as a cosmological recipe in its details).
The collective (non-Jungian, please) history, interpretations, customs and practices (even if more honored in the breach than in the observance) still define a people, if not a race or unified nation.
The absolute agreement in the reality or nature of a god is not necessary to the peoplehood of that ethnic entity--only the individual's self-association with the peoplehood and essential ethos. ( in my nsh opinion)

Who knows if I'm a good Jew or not? Frankly, I could care less. Besides, this has been an ongoing debate within the Jewish community for as long as I can remember. Because I'm a cultural Jew from a non-believing family, I was generally unaware what constitutes a "good" Jew until I went to Camp Brandeis one year in my teens. One night they had a guest speaker and I remember this schmuck rabbi ranting on about what a good Jew was. Aside from thinking he had a lot of chutzpa, I knew right away I didn't fit his idea of what a good Jew was, since I was stoned out of my gourd along with my new-found Jewish friends. We laughed and laughed as he ranted and raved.

I get the feeling Jonathan Sarna, one of the other panelists, would not consider me a good Jew either. I found it kind of amazing that Mr. Sarna, in his post, would refer to the great biblical prophets at all considering their tormented hallucinations and behavior. Abraham almost barbequed his son because god told him to in order to test his love for god. Moses is plagued by a god who loves him and then tries to kill him, gives him visions, laws, a bad sense of direction, and finally discourses on what to do to non-believers. Lot is visited by angels, hands over his teenage daughters (instead of the angels) to a gay mob for a train. This really pisses the mob off, so he flees Sodom with his family, watches god turn his wife into salt, then impregnates his daughters because they got him drunk and took advantage of him in a cave (I’d like to see how that defense would fly in a modern court of law). I would say there is definitely evidence of an organic, hereditary component afflicting the lineage of Abraham with mental illness. Not only are they schizo, but their god is too. Frankly, I’ll take the unworthy critics (bad Jews and criticizers of Israel) any day over such madness.

Conservative Judaism was noted above as being one version of the Jewish religion. The Conservative "take" on the Torah could help settle many of the Palestine historical issues.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."

Also was not Israel first settled by Cainites? Which brings up the questions, was Cain and his parents Jewish? Or did Noah's offspring start the Jewish race?

I am a Jew. My soul food is bagels, cream cheese and lox. I don't believe in G-D: I leave that belief to those who need a leap of faith. I KNOW IT is. I read the Pentateuch almost daily-also books written by renowned Jewish intellectuals about and on the Torah. My children attended Hebrew classes until the age of 18 and each went to Israel for 3 months as teenagers. One daughter attended university in Israel for one year and she and I have visited subsequently. I don't attend synagogue anymore because I became horrifyingly aware that the Rabbis knew less than I do about the religion, history and concepts of Hebrews and Jews. I am highly critical of the Jews of the American Enterprise Institute and various other Jewish neo-cons who have joined with neo-con Christians in their vicious war mongering and hate mongering screeds. I am doubly critical of those Jews who wrap themselves in selected Torah dicta as proof of their piety and "Jewishness". I would submit that there is no reason for them to voice an 'opinion'. All they need is a disc which would repeat the same mindless phrases over and over again. We were given free will and a reasoning mind by the Creator. It's not only a remarkable gift; it's an imperative. And it extends to all people. To preach hate is to intensify it and spread it. It also comes back at those who preach it. This comes straight from the Book.
Jews and Arabs are Semites. We are blood relatives. The Christian Evangelists want a war between the Semites (Armageddon). In their dogma, all the Arabs will be killed and most of the Jews. The few remaining Jews will become Christians and turn to Jesus in his second coming.Then all believers will float to heaven in the 'rapture'. This is the only reason they are supporting Israel and are so friendly to the Jews. These Evangelists are the neo-cons. And it is these people that our notable US Jews are embracing. These are the same people who are pressing their influence on Israel. What I just can't fathom, as someone born and bred in Brooklyn: where did all these stupid Jews come from? I see the same types in Israel. Can't they see the scam? Don't they watch Christian programs? Do they think Bush/Chaney and their gang love us? As for the US being the interlocutor in the Israel/Arab problem, fagedaboutit.

To Bob Johnson (and whoever else):

After reading all the responses as to "what is anti-semetic vs anti-jew" I think there is 1 simple answer. A Semite is a decendant of Shem. This icludes many different "races" mostly in the Middle East.

The headline on this article inclined me to think it was about Hillary who deems any criticism of her as illegal while pretending to be a Methodist while actually being a Jew according to two Chicago neighbors of her now in Florida. They are very angry about Hillary stating in their words that she is a Heb posing as a Methodist. She lived in the Rogers Park section of Chicago if someone would go check out the hood to see what neighbors say there.

Don,

I know I am jumping into this argument late but I had to point out a couple things.

1st, Judaism is currently broken down to into many different versions: Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Hassidim etc. Each of these groups interpret Torah differently. Does this make 1 group more "Jewish" than another?

2nd, go back a couple thousand years to around the time of the Roman control of what is now called Isreal. At that time there were even more versions of Judaism. Let's see, there were the Saducees, the Pharasees, the common person following the traditions they learned from their parents, the Essenes etc. Let's just, for a moment, mention the Essenes. This group, centered around Kumran and other settlements, followed a very differen version of Judaism but they were still Jews. Among the differences were their interpretations of Law, the dates of the Holy days, even the calender they used (most Jews at the time used a lunar calender which is why the holidays don't always fall on the same date each year while the Essences followed a Solar calender).

If you cannot accept different interpretations of what makes you what you are how can you ever hope for peace and understanding in the world.

(As a quick aside: since you believe so firmly in Torah - which is your right - do you also belive that the universe is only 5000+ years old?)

Every once in awhile one reads an article that states in a well written form the thoughts and feelings that a person thinks and feels but is not able to put into words. For me,Susans article and Eileens comments pretty much summed up these issues. Everyone else was pretty much just reveling in thier own insecurities. By the way, after I am made emperor, I will be outlawing all religions.

1/
You know why Hitler decided to exterminate all the
Jews and get definitely rid of them ?

Because he got mad to understand WHAT IS A JEW !!!!!

2/ more seriously: A Jew is someone tou can not define without getting MAD.
It is one reason of anti jew attitudes all over the History: Jews are asking a Question (philosophically-transcendentally and morally) which is whithout any Answer and the Tradition (I don't believe in God and religions but I admire that in Judaïsm) Tradition asks to THINK ABOUT all the time through the Torah study, to find out what COULD be the good but not the Right nor definitely Answer.("Beyond of the Verse" E.Levinas)
And that makes Humanity SO MAD and anxious that "they" want to KILL THEM, by Rage!
All your blabla is useless.
Please, read the Flavius Josephe's book "In Reply to Appion" writtzen in mid first century when Christianity was a tiny small club of margin crazy fools .....

Don did state that he went to a yeshiva. I would think that not only has he read the Torah, but that it probably meant and means more to him than it ever could to any "atheist". Shame on you Susan really!!

I'm a person who was raised as a secular Jew by an atheist mother and an agnostic father. I think Israel was established because the world felt guilty about not doing anything to stop the holocaust until the very end when we beat the Germans. But Jews who were trying to escape the Nazis were not allowed into many countries, including the US.

However, putting the Jews in the middle of millions of Arabs was bound to lead to trouble. I believe the Jews should have been given an area of land that would not have been so controversial. How about buying a piece of land from Mexico in Baja California, or a piece of Australia, or Canada, or many places in the world?

Since I don't believe the bible has any value other than as a cultural artifact of the thinking of people 2000 years ago, it doesn't matter what the Bible says. And I agree with the idea that we should give American Indians their land back if we believe that people who once lived in an area thousands of years ago are entitled to keep it forever. That's not reality. Things change. People move on.

I want Jews to have a homeland to which they can escape in times of anti-semitic horrors, but it should be located in a less dangerous spot. It's not too late to start another Israel somewhere else.

After reading all the previous postings, all I can recall is the old saw.
"What do you get when two Jews have a debate?
Ans: "Three opinions."
The encouraging thing about this forum is that I didn't really see any inappropriate profanity being bandied about as I have seen in other so-called forums (Okay, maybe some subtle, mannerly ones). So, to the contributing pro's or anti's of this forum. Thank you for keeping it palatable.

And thus the oneupsmanship goes on. As a non-Jew who admires and loves much of Judaism--the internal finger pointing is just like that of Christians and Muslims- G-- or Something Forbid we have a wide range of beliefs within these religious describers.
Godness seems like a good description for those who care about improving the condition of other people without the foolishness of deciding whose god or belief is stronger.

No, people, being anti-neocon is not being anti-Semitic. Public opinion polls have shown that the Jewish community is as dismayed about the war in Iraq as all other Americans are. But the role of certain Jewish neoconservatives--like Bill Kristol--in providing intellectual rationales for the war in Iraq has certainly prompted liberal Jews to stand up and be counted. As I said in my original post, the Jewish right's sense that it is losing ground with the mainstream Jewish community is one factor in the dispute over the essay published by the American Jewish community.

Finally, I am personally dismayed by the uncivil tone of many of the comments here. It only proves my point about the deep emotions that Israel taps within all Jews. As far as I am concerned, anyone who calls someone a bad Jew over these issues is a bad Jew. Try reading the Torah instead of using it to beat political opponents over the head.

Ba'al

You said:

"Norman Podhoretz and his various emanations and off-spring -- the likes of Kristol and Perle and Ledeen and Krauthammer, and Wolfowitz -- are the intellectual authors of the mess in Iraq, torture, the decimation of our Constitution."

My friends and I had happily thrashed the "Project for the New American Century" for all the additional mess it created in the Middle East until an American friend pointed out to us that many of its architect are Jewish. He quoted Podhoretz, Wolfowitz and Midge Dicter among others. I don't know for certain if he is exaggerating when he said "many", or the people he named, in fact, are involved directly in the Project.

We were, of course, surprised. How were we supposed to know what a Jewish name is, who is Jewish. So, is to be anti-neocon being anti-Semitic and/or Anti-Jewish?

Phaedrus, my thoughts exactly.

Ted and Don, you both missed the point entirely. Thank you for correcting my spelling, Don, but I did not "equate" sieg heil with baruch hashem. If these phrases are similar at all, it is only that they are stereotypically associated with the groups that utter them. Nothing more.

Ted, if you did not realize I was presenting the Nazi opinion in a pejorative light by my use of the word "ignorance," then I'm afraid you're good sense has been blinded by your reactionary sensibility. There may be no hope for you...

Ms. Jacoby,

There is anti-Semiticism, there is anti-Zionism, and there is anti-Jew. Any difference? Same difference?

The Arabs says they are anti-Zionism. The Jews say the Arabs who said that are anti-Semitic. The Arabs are surprised as they are also a Semitic people.

Everyone claim they are not anti-Jewish when they made or are accused of making anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist remarks.

Do we wonder why? History perhaps.

For fairness, I also think that the regimes in places like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran are complete abominations (even though it would be insane to attempt to change them by force).

Norman Podhoretz and his various emanations and off-spring -- the likes of Kristol and Perle and Ledeen and Krauthammer, and Wolfowitz -- are the intellectual authors of the mess in Iraq, torture, the decimation of our Constitution. If hanging with that crowd is what it takes to be a "good Jew", then count me as an anti-Semite -- even though several of my relatives died at Auschwitz.

To Shalom:

Can anyone not hate a religon and be supportive of another at the same time?

Think about it.

To Brad:

Not exactly. You know, arabs are semetic as well.

Bob Johnson:
Being anti-semitic and anti-jewish are the same thing.

Poor Don, you're getting pasted. Most self-respecting Jews I know are atheists.

As for the Middle East conflict, the Palestinians and the Israelis are dancing the dance of death. The Palestinians, best exemplified by the late, great (not so much), Yasser Arafat, are losers who never saw a defeat they could not snatch from the jaws of victory. On the other side, even if Arafat had accepted the 2000 settlement, the messianic extremist settlers would have started a civil war.

To be able to make jews see themselves through anti-semetic eyes is the greatest achievement OF anti-semetism. The author of this article is living proof

Criticizing Israel is not a crime, nor does it make you anti-Semite. But if one constantly criticizes one side and never the other, it is clear who he's loyal to. It is sad too see Jewish people loyal to the Muslim world that threatens to destroy us. If Jews want to live, Israel must exist and be a strong deterrent to nazi regimes like Iran. So as for me, making Israel strong is something I must do in self-defense, and if it implies that I must ruin careers of anti-Israel propagandists I'd do it.
There's too much information in the media, and you can be led to believe anything, if you believe everything. My truth is that we're fighting an enormous Islamic force that pushes the Palestinians to fight us against their will. They are the biggest losers in this conflict, and I pity them, but we can't help them. Every attempt to make peace with them is thwarted by rich Muslim countries that want them to fight us: they are trapped. And so are we, because only through us US can spread its influence in the middle east. So I'm prepared to see this strife for a long time: tiny Palestinians fighting the big Israel, and on a larger scale tiny Israel fighting the big Arab/Muslim countries. Since American support is the only thing that keeps us alive, we take it. Forget about absolute good and evil, everything is about power and money for some, and survival for the others. I hope that in Europe, Muslims will live in peace with the locals, but knowing European history i doubt that. History always repeats itself, and i consider the recent quiet as the calm before the storm.
So next time you are angry at us or at the Palestinians for failing to make peace, ask yourself whether anyone but you wants this tiny conflict to end, and why doesn't the media care so much about Darfur, Rwanda and the Global Warming.

Shalom from Israel

Ms Jacoby writes:

"I think that hope really died on the day Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish terrorist."

How sad. That one pesky jew spoiled everything. Guess good ol' Yasser could've taught us a thing or 2 about loving thy neighbor....darn jews!!

Can someone explain the difference between an anti-semite and a anti-jew?

Don:

Your definition completely misses the importance of cultural identity. One can avoid parsing collective concepts of race or ethnicity by focusing on individuals. What you are saying, in effect, is that people who identify with being Jewish--because of their cultural bonds to childhood, family, history, food, music, art, religious symbols and practices, moral lessons, in short the experiences that have made them who they are, and cause them to identify with others in diverse and complicated ways--that these people are simply wrong in their identity. That they must stop identifying with what made them if they have managed to think for themselves and decide that the supernatural isn't part of their belief system.

Yours is an unbelievably narrow view of who people are. The message not to think for yourself, because you might just need (by Don's definition) to break ties with your cultural roots, is not the message of Judaism I grew up with.

Ted:

I think that what MAV was saying is that this argument (quoted by you) is equally specious to Don's assertion that only a religious jew is a "Jew."

MAV, correct me if this is wrong.

"If there was a Nazi posting here, he would say in his ignorance, "It is weak blood that binds and unites the Jewish people. You wont find that in any dictionary. I hope one day you'll all see it. Zig Heil!"

hey Mav....go see someone. you need serious help

Phaedrus is right! Godwin's law invoked.

To equate "baruch hashem" with zig heil?? (actually sieg heil) Moral bankruptcy at its finest.

If every descendant of every ethnic group that has ever been pushed off their land in the past were to demand the land be returned to them, where would we all be? I live on land that used to belong to Native Americans.

I think the UN should be in charge of Palestine/Judah/Israel. The area has too many people claiming it to be at peace. And every group has a legitimate claim based on prior historical occupation.

Don,

If there was a Nazi posting here, he would say in his ignorance, "It is weak blood that binds and unites the Jewish people. You wont find that in any dictionary. I hope one day you'll all see it. Zig Heil!"

Thankfully, Nazis do not determine the usage of words. Neither do you. Good night.

Buggs Bunny that is!

George,

Get a life :o)

I know being civil is frowned upon here, but I thought I'd give it shot.

And my name really is Mike. I doubt yours is George Bush. My, we are brave when we hide behind masks aren't we.

As Buggs Bynny mmight say: "What a maroon!"

Georgie you'll get your wish right now...cause im leaving...but one last word....It is the Torah that binds and unites the Jewish people. You wont find that in any dictionary. I hope one day you'll all see it. Baruch Hashem

Shalom all

I think Don and Mike should go off-line now.

Don,

You are simply using the word "Jewish" in discord with its common meaning. Most people who call themselves "Jewish" do not agree with your narrow definition.

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, on Dictionary.com:

Jew (jōō) n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

If you are using a word in an unconventional way then define your terms. Perhaps you should introduce the distinctions "religiously Jewish" and/or "culturally Jewish" to clarify your meaning. Otherwise, you should understand that most of us use words according to their common usage.

Hi Don,

Absolutely understand.

Have a great day.

mike

Oh and have a great day too Mike

Mike

I would say that Judaism has many unique values and customs. The love of pastrami im sure not being tied to anything religous. But the point im trying to make is that its called the "Jewish faith" for a reason. its a faith...the way Christianity is. The way Islam is or any other religion. Judaism while rich in tradition and custom is a religion. Not a location on a map somewhere. Not some sort of racial I.D to wear. Its a faith and belief.

Hi Don,

Fair enough.

I just look at it as cultural traditions, not necessarily grounded in any geographic area or religion. Many of the values, customs, recipes :o) etc., are all things I learned as a child and are distinctly Italian (actually Etruscan also no place with that name) and apart from what I learned as an American born child.

So as a result I still hold onto many of the values and traditions my grandparents and parents brought with them. I suppose growing up in an ethnic enclave, which I did, instills in one that identity.

I was just wondering, apart from religious beliefs, if you saw traditions, values and customs that were uniquely Jewish without religious qualification.

Oh and you are right, I’m no longer a Catholic. My membership lapsed and the cost of readmission was way too high :o).

have a good day.

Mike

Norrie sez:

"This topic is unbelievably stupid and shallow. The answer to both questions is YES, and any intelligent person would know that in ten seconds..."

Thanks for the positive words! I was wondering all day if I was intelligent and according to you I just might not be.

You are so insightful!

Pardon me while I wretch...

Mike

Culturally Italian and culturally jewish are 2 different things. I'm culturally american. Being Italian makes u from Italy or descended thereof. Culturally jewish dosent make me from the land of jew

Don,

I know I am :o).

But I was wondering do you see the same distinction with being Jewish? Can you still be culturally Jewish, as I am culturally Italian, without ties to faith?

What is horrifying is that a concerted effort by neocons, having more loyalty to Israel than the US, is permeating media in order to sway the public opinion in favor of a new war, this time against Iran. These people are the same people who constantly write against President Jimmy Carter and International relations scholars John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard University. They are also the same people who lured the US into the Iraqi quagmire through false WMD claims and false claims of an AlQaeda-Saddam connection. Unfortunately many American Jews have fallen into the trap of these right-wing extremists with a few even recommending using nukes against a country that according to CIA is ten years away from a nuclear capability with a delievery system if they put all their efforts into it.

The only point that I am making is that defining one's terms is a rerquirement for making any kind of rational argument. That's it.

Otherwise, I am with Norrie on this one.

For once, Norrie, you and I are in agreement. There will still be posts, however, since this question will spawn other topics of debate, like the one here about what "makes" a Jew Jewish.

This topic is unbelievably stupid and shallow. The answer to both questions is YES, and any intelligent person would know that in ten seconds. There won't be many posts because there's nothing to be said on this topic.

Karen

Is judaism a religion or a politcal organization?
Is it a club? Karaoke saturday nights?? Im in need of further enlightenment. Not what I was taught at the yeshiva

Mike....you're still italian my friend but not catholic if u dont accept the church

Don,
Before you get so upset with Phaedrus, please consider this: I have over time asked several of my jewish and israeli friends what it means for them to be Jewish. They range from the atheist to reformed to conservative. Their responses can be summed up like this: being jewish is belonging to a specific ethnic group with a shared history and shared traditions and that they would still consider themselves jews whether they believed in God or not. We have had some interested discussions about this because I found it hard to relate to this concept. I consider myself a christian because I believe in Christ, not because I was born into the faith. But time and again my jewish friends have told me that in their opinion, jewish identity has "transcended" (their words not mine) just following judaism as a religion. In the words of one of my israeli friends: if you are born of a jewish mother, you are a jew even if you practice buddhism.
Maybe Phaedrus is expressing an opinion based on similar experiences. As a non-jew, it is certainly not for me to define who is jewish and who is not. But I will tell you that many of my jewish friends would disagree with you and would resent the idea that this makes them less jewish then you.

Mike

Of course

Don,

Quick question.

I am of Italian heritage. One aspect of my grandparents’ culture was the Catholic church. Some time ago I decided that I did not want to be a part of the church. I am still of Italian descent and culture, sans the church.

Is it possible, in your view, to be culturally Jewish without being affiliated with the Jewish faith?

Thanks.

Mike

I hope you find whatever you're all looking for. I've found what im looking for. Baruch Hashem

Don, you might start by looking up the definitions of "race" and "ethnicity." They are not the same. One is largely a sociocultural disctinction (ethnicity) and the other is based largely on physical characteristics. Thus, although any reasonable person recognizes that Jewishness refers to ethnicity, whereas Judaism relates to the religion, and no reasonable person refers to a jewish "race," it seems claear that your position is that there is in fact, no Jewish ethnicity, ONLY a religion.

Good luck with that.

And by the way, leaping to make an erroneous comparison to Nazism or Hitler is considered bad form, and could actually invoke Godwins law.

"Don's" view appears to be that adherence to religious beliefs or practices associated with Jewish culture is the criterion for determining whether one is Jewish. It should be noted that being Jewish means being a member of an ethnic group with a distinct culture, language(s), history, genotype and religion(s), among other identifiable characteristics. Many Jewish people do not engage in religious practices, as is true for other ethnic groups (such as Greeks, French, Arabs, Scots, and Koreans, etc.) Those individuals who do not require religious beliefs or practices to make sense of the world are still members of their respective ethnic groups. It would appear that a significant percentage of every ethnic group is likely to be non-religious. Defining the Jewish ethnic group in terms of adherence to the religious practices developed by Jews is inaccurate, as it ignores the larger context of the Jewish people's history and culture. Although religion is important, it is not the only sphere of activity in which the Jewish people have made an identifiable contribution. One need not follow Jewish religious practices in order to be considered Jewish.

Ms Jacoby wrote:

"Who appointed right-wing American Jews the arbiters of what it means to be a good Jew, a bad Jew, or a Jew, period?"

The same type folks that decided that if you're not for everything the American goverment does, you are anti-American.

The same kind of folks that tell you if you don't accept THEIR version of Christanity, you are not Christian.

Very well written and reasoned piece Susan.

Mike

Phaedrus:

You are correct. You did not use those words. I did. If I understood you correctly you stated that any one who "acts" like a jew is a jew...am I correct in that assumption? And I believe that only...and I mean only...those people who believe in the Torah and Hashem are jewish. Simple. If you dont believe in christ can u be a catholic??

First of all, I did not use the word "race," you did that. Secondly, are you trying to claim that the difinition of "Jew" is: "One who ascribes to the beliefs and practices of Judaism."

Define your terms Don, as this is foundational to any meaningful meaningful discussion.

Ms. Jacoby, I really enjoyed your thoughtful article. I am not Jewish, but I am interested in what American Jews think about the situation in Israel.

I would like to make a comment about freedom of speech. I believe that even rude and insulting speech must be allowed. What troubles me are the times when people are blocked in their careers or actually lose their positions because of the actions of right-wing Jewish organizations who disagree with them.

apologies for the double post.

Phaedrus

Most disturbing reply..the nazi's thought of the jews as a "race". We all know that Jews are every color under the rainbow...not one specific race. Very disturbing

Perhaps you need to define your terms Don. There is Judaism as a religion, and then there is the ethnic distinction of "jew." One can be jewish in ethnicity without believing in judaism, the religion.

Perhaps you need to define your terms Don. There is Judaism as a religion, and then there is the ethnic distinction of "jew." One can be jewish in ethnicity without believing in judaism, the religion.

yoyo

If judaism isnt about the Torah?? what is it than?? Looks like im gonna need a "progressive" definition of judaism

Don
You think only Jews who believe in a skygod are really Jewish? After the holocaust many realised that there was nobody up there. There are many nonbelieving Jews in Israel. Dont be so naive.
Interesting article Ms Jacoby.

Ashley,

"Imaginary G-ds"?? Must be the love of gefilte fish that makes you a Jew eh?. Here I was being so silly thinking judaism was about believing in G-d. Thanx Ash....pass the bacon please!!

Don,

No where did Ms. Jacoby claim that her atheism entitled her to speak as a representative of the Jewish people. In fact, no where did she claim to be speaking for anyone but herself.

Belief in imaginary gods is not the all-encompassing definition of Jewish identity.

Yes indeed, one can criticize Israelis (and Palestineans) without being anti-Semitic or anti-Arab.

In hindsight, UN Resolution 181, (1947) which partitioned the Palestine territories in two parts, one Israeli and one Palestinean was a mistake. The UN should have recognized that conflicts over Jerusalem, water rights and land deeds would create significant tensions and bloodshed. The territory should have remained under permanent UN control.

The solution: Israel should honor the original UN Resolution 181 and move its borders accordingly. The borders should be maintained by walls and fences and guarded by UN troops. Jerusalem should be made an international city governed by the UN and its troops. Water should be distributed based on population and water desalination plants built and maintained by the oil-rich nations of the region. Economic development and education should be funded by the same countries plus support from the likes of the USA, Russia, China, Australia and the European Union.

Separation of incompatible peoples does work as shown by the separation of Czechoslovakia and also the Balkan state breakups.

Blindly following a POV is as dangerous as blindly attacking a POV.

Ms. Jacoby,

You write that you are an Atheist and yet you feel this somehow entitles you to speak as a representative of the Jewish people. Ms. Jacoby, you're last name might have been good enough for the Nazi's in all their ignorance and hate but it is the Torah and the belief in Hashem that make you Jewish. If you don't believe in G-d, than you're not a Jew. This very basic and fundamental principle is always lost on the...ahem..."progressives"!!

I am not surprised at the trouble Susan Jacoby has had. Israeli rightwingers have many traits in common with the Nazis. Their nationalism is 'Integral Nationalism,' which was in Europe the forerunner of Fascsm.