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this is extremely childlike and simplistic reasoning

it seems mr schillebeeckx thought for one moment on a subject, and then said the first thing that popped into his mind-

it has been dealt with at length and for weeks on the prayer question, with brother shakir

hes actually describing fatalism-
fatalism is not the same as the islamic doctrine of kismet, or fate-

it has been widely disseminated and discussed and argued for a millennium,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fatalism-
noun-1. a submissive mental attitude resulting from acceptance of the doctrine that everything that happens is predetermined and inevitable
2. a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

his philosophical comments on fatalism rule out free will-
heres the link, but its a heavy read-
also one has to sift through alot of posts- but towards the end it consumes the conversation-
look for joseph and raphael

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/zaid_shakir/2007/02/prayer_the_essence_of_worship_1.html

peace

Continuation of the cleansing of the Koran.

"6. To believe that Allah Most High has knowledge of everything from before-hand and that only that which He sanctions or wishes will occur."

This is invalidated by the natural/inherent/God-given gifts/attributes of the human race i.e. Free Will and Future.

As per the theologian Edward Schillebeeckx,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

We must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman
doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God/Allah the great scapegoat of history.”

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the
historical future is not known even to God/Allah; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

"7. To believe that Resurrection will definitely occur."

The spiritual resurrection occurs at each death. There will be no physical resurrection from common sense considerations i.e. Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no bodies to include those of Jesus, Mary, Moses etc. can reside there.

"8. To believe in the existence of Heaven."

Acceptable but it exists only as a spirit state.

"9. To believe in the existence of Hell."

Maybe, maybe not. Some say if one dies is significant sin, that person’s soul will simply no longer exist since God/Allah does not tolerate imperfection in the Kingdom.

"10. To have love for Allah Most High."

Of course, just like there is love of all creatures, spiritual and living. Again there has to be an all-inclusive statement for Allah, i..e. aka God, Yahweh, Mother Nature, Jehovah, etc.

Victoria,

Get with the program. We need ways to modernize/cleanse Islam/Koran. We do not need more "wishy-wash" commentary.

i would like to make note that i just finished my afternoon prayer- so that is my state of mind in this composition-

also this happens 5 times a day, so at least 5 times a day i have this reasonable attitude(however i am inclined to believe the reason overlaps from prayer to prayer)

Muslims comprise the most diverse population of any grouping on the planet, yet people still persist in believing fox news perceptions-

id say the proof is in the pudding-

witness the very apparent examples on these boards-

where do you see angry and abusive muslims here?

do you see muslims name calling and castigating others?
acting impolitely, judging others, slandering others?

id say there is a disproportionate amount of reasonable response to overt aggression here-

and yet it doesnt strike anyone as indicative of islamic manners and behavior?

while i see a preponderance of verbal violence against muslims-

is this verbal violence and abuse answered back in reciprocal manner?

there are even those who mislead others by using arabic names, and then propagating outright hatred and vitriol-

has anyone seen a corollary malice in return?

or even anger?

if islam is filled with out of control emotional and anger filled adherents, why dont we see any evidence of it here?

people respond with outright irrational emotions controlling their every word- but the muslims remain reasoned.

it is a phenomenon that certainly deserves mention and attention.

peace all

Deb Chatterjee

I am ashamed to have you as a fellow American. We should vet hatemongers and scaremongers like you from coming in instead.

Abu Ibrahim wrote:

"Get this through your head. I am a FUN-DA-MENT-A-LIST. I believe in the fundamentals of Islam and I thank God I do. Therefore, as far as I am concerened, Islam is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

As far as I am concerned, I believe that Islam is a barbaric culture and predatory system that has no place in USA. US Constitution (1st Amendment) and the Sharia laws are mutually annhiliatory. The USA must revise its immigration policies to reduce the number of Muslims entering USA. Also, the DHS must beef up its snooping of mosques to find out which Muslims are planning to terrorize and have them swiftly deported or thrown in jails without search warrants.

In fact, I am going to support any agenda item that Tom Tancredo puts on the ballot that would potentially reduce the number of visas granted to Muslims desiring to enter USA.

Concerned,
I believe you twisted Jihadist's words in his last post. He was being charmingly sarcastic with you. I don't think he will crossanized the Koran. He seems to be a devout Muslim to me, but an easy-going and open one.

Ok, let start cleansing/updating the Koran: (as noted as comments on a number of panelists' pages)

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain natural events,contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via an "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

Jihadist,

So you agree the Koran was written by "sun baked" scribes? I did not say they were illiterate. Mohammed was illiterate. The "sun-bakers" either were in Mohammed's group of henchmen or they used him to promote their agenda of plundering and looting.

Bottom line question: You agree that the Koran was written by humans for humans and the visions of "pretty wingy thingies" and other "revelations" are simply embellishments/hallucinations to win converts? And that the non-militant messages of the Koran were simply taken from the OT, NT, Greek, Babylonian, Macedonian, Egyptian, Buddhist and other pre-Islamic literature? Actually the OT and NT were "prepped" in an analogous fashion.

Concerned

Quoi? The Prophet Muhammad PBUH was doing bong or heroin and halucinating? How can you be sure when you based that on the Hadiths and the biographies of the Prophet when you said they are all written by "sun-fried" illiterate desert dwellers and questioned what they wrote?

The Prophet was meditating/fasting in a cave, like Buddha if you'd pardon the comparision. And then came the revelations. He did not believe it himself. Nor others.

My friend, I really have to leave now, not on a "pretty wingy thingy" but mundane Boeing 747. These planes cabins and sleepers now look like something out of Kubrick's, 2001 - A Space Odysessey" and so sterile.

I do take note of your oft made points about critical reading of the Holy Texts. What makes you so sure we are not on the Qur'an, Hadiths and the Propphet's biographies? Can't say the same for the Taliban. But I can't judge them for the kind of education they can afford and received. And the kind of world they live in for centuries.

As of now, prioritization calls us to improve the lives of Muslims first (political, economic and social rights) and in addressing the more interesting applications of Shariah laws. It does take a lot of time, money and effort in my free time.

Ok, don't let the "pretty wingy things" take you away before your time before I come back Crossanista :).

Jihadist,

We continue to repeat the same questions and critiques because you continue to answer with the same "wishy-wash" commentaries.

You still cannot come to grips with the problems with Islam's foundation i.e. the hallucinations of one Mohammed who thought he talked to God via a "Hittite pretty wingy thingy" after fasting thirty days in a hot cave. These hallucinations resulted in the violent Islam we know today and have witnessed since the plundering and looting agenda was first articulated. Why do you have such a problem addressing this critical issue??
I recommend reading some of Professor Crossan's books on the historical Jesus to see how to address critical scriptural issues.

Anynomous

Thank you. People do get killed for disagreeing with inerrantists/literalists, whom we call bigots and fanatics. And people do get thrown in jail for disagreeing with their governments, from Algeria to Afghanistan.

And back to the topic, that is why I feel less sorry for Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali than I do for my fellow co-religionists still in Muslim majority countries that have to bear the brunt of their repressive governments or inerrantists/literalists, the bigots and fanatics.

It takes a lot of money to create awareness on them, their rights and to protect them across borders through Muslim NGOS. Always two steps forward, one step back for now, but some progress made.

On this note, I really should stop and get on with my work and life for sa while.

Anynomous

Thank you. People do get killed for disagreeing with inerrantists/literalists, whom we call bigots and fanatics. And people do get thrown in jail for disagreeing with their governments, from Algeria to Afghanistan.

And back to the topic, that is why I feel less sorry for Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali than I do for my fellow co-religionists still in Muslim majority countries that have to bear the brunt of their repressive governments or inerrantists/literalists, the bigots and fanatics.

It takes a lot of money to create awareness on them, their rights and to protect them across borders through Muslim NGOS. Always two steps forward, one step back for now on Muslim women, but some progress made.

On this note, I really should stop and get on with my work and life for a while.

Lets take a moment and be thankful that we are able to speak openly even if we disagree and do not fear censure or imprisonment or death.

And please take another moment to remember those who are censured and imprisoned and put to death for openly disagreeing.

JDWill and Concerned :)

Why not? You tell us from time to time. We tell you from time to time. Mud in the mind. Mud in the face. Verbal mud wrestling. Muddying the issues.

Lecture begets lecture.

JDWill

Never heard of Tu Quoque. Perhaps he is pointing out the obvious and you have to read him up to know so. I like books but Jane Austen better and I'm busy reading Niall Ferguson, Noam Chomsky, Paul Kennedy, Kevin Phillips, Paul Krugman, Robert Stiglitz et al.

Will you read up more on the history of the world? And read up on sexual trade and trafficking in women and children in Asia. And read beyond what is written in the west by western writers. I do read up what is written by your writers in your mother tongue. I did not find that inconvenient or difficult.

Read up the history of the countries you raised. Read up on the meaning of self-determination. Read how politics and economy drives religion. Read how colonization shaped African and Asian countries today and how the borders drawn by the west led to current difficulties in some areas.
Institutionalized racism, hmm, the US and South Africa before.

Pointing out our faults does not detract from yours. What is your excuse, being civilized people whose civilization produce the Englightenment and Reformation, and telling us what needs to be done. We have never heard of them. They don't teach us much about those fellows in our third world countries, only on our independence leaders and such and local heroes and writer/thinkers.

Concerned,

Point out the faults of Islam and Muslims? Have y'all not been doing that for centuries and now incessantly here?

Vilifications is a measure of dehumanizing the other to make it all right to perpetuate atrociticies against the other. In stating the Muslims are violent, in contending that their values are false and invalid, you are certainly making it all right for Muslims to be cannon fodder.

As for me working for an "Islamic propoganda group", well, propoganda groups repeat the same thing over and over again. I don't. You did, - as in posting and pasting the same thing over and over again and in indefatigably promoting Crossan as the new god, messiah, prophet and enlightenment figure of whatever. Only a propogandist would want to universalize his dogmas and views and insist others do likewise - hence your calls to crossanizze the Bible, crossanize the Qur'an.

Again Concerned the Crossanista, take time out, have a nice chianti this time, and listen to Bessie Smith. Then watch that movie, "Babette's Feast", a very glorious and Christian movie on hope, faith and charity that even Muslims truly love and watch over and over again.

Jihadist,

You avoid the basic questions about the violence of Islam but continue to cite the wrongs of all non-Islamic countries over and over again.

Again, who do you really work for? Based on your avoidance of the Islamic issues of violence and errors in the Koran, one can only conclude you work for an Islamic propaganda group.

For example, you never issue proofs of your founder's communication with God. The man apparently spent 30 days fasting in a hot cave and when exiting said he was in communication with God via a "pretty wingy thingie". Give us a break!!!!

"Crossanize" the Koran during your travels and report back to us with your results. Just be careful not to publish them in an Islamic country.

Jihadist,

You make my point perfectly. Thank you.

How do you think screaming racist at us will be effective, when we see slavery still in force in Africa under Muslim rule?

How does playing the race card against Americans help you explain the murder and hatred we see in Chechnya, Palestine, Philippines, Sudan, Kashmir, Baghdad, Kosovo, and on and on?

You really are wasting your time with this line of argument.

Why don't you look at your Islamist problem instead? How are you going to reconcile a triumphalist, revivalist, and revanchist ideology with the 21st century? It is not going to convert the world; it is not even going to take over the Islamic world; it is certainly not going to reclaim 'Andalusia'. It can, however, bring misery and disaster to the ummah it seeks to dominate.

Large groups of Muslims want to find a way. I have personally talked to some of them. Your line of argument is getting in the way. It is not shrinking the 'chasm'. People pointing out that there is a problem is not the problem as you try to bluster in your previous post.

I will repeat, based on what I have seen passing for discussion in this thread:

Don't waste your time with Tu Quoque arguments about what problems America has. Don't waste your time parsing verses of the Quran. Don't waste your time misdirecting the argument with the race card.

It's time for the large, rich, and diverse Islamic culture to go off defense and address the Islamist ideology. Does it truly belong to them? Do they truly belong to it?

We Westerners cannot answer these questions, but we are going to remind you from time to time that you need to.

And Concerned

You said : "Don't waste your time misdirecting the argument with the race card."

Really. Astounding coming from a man of a country with a history of institutionalized "racism" based on religion and dubious biological premises in the southern states right up to the sixties. No other nations did that in the last century. Busing? Segregated eating and toilets etc?

And oh, ever heard of signs that says "No dogs and Chinese allowed"? and such? It was all in the first half of the last century in colonized countries in Asia and Africa. Unfortunately we remember them still as if they were yesterday as our grandparents lived through that.

Like Martin Luther King said", " I have a dream..." but it turns out to be a nightmare of hypocrisy by those purporting to be against racism and sexism.

And mate, I still remember one post where you accused my friends as ignorant fools and cannot read. We can read and in more than one languages apart from our mother tongue. That, my friend, a white male, can be read as condescension, racism and sexism.

So, if you stated "Americans are right to be sceptical about Islam and its intentions" well, unfortunately Muslims are dubious of certain US government intentions due to recent realities.

So, mate, you want to widen and deepen the chasm here with continued calls for walls build and no travelling is up to you. Again I remind you what George Santayana said about fanatics, someone who redoubles his efforts once he forgot his purpose.

Regards mate. I always save my last post for a while in On Faith threads to you :)

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated :)

Of course you have to quote:

"Just show the world with your actions who you are. By your fruits we will know you."

And by your own fruits and actions here I have already known you - an unrelenting baiter of Muslims. Good for them to go into "fighting words" with you and your ilks who seek to define the debate on your own terms and terminology. And by the actions of Christians and "secular" western states do we know them too - what they say and what they actually do.

I leave it for your to be a Crossanized Christian or Catholic. And quit preaching in all these threads. A preacher is a preacher no matter what.
Try China instead. All the weddings of my Chinese colleagues I attended there were in a church in spite of them not being Christians after the civil marraige and registration was done. They just love it because they saw all those western movies of beautiful church weddings. Ripe for conversion to Christianity in all versions, including the crossanized version I must say. And besides, Muslims are not obsessed with converting others as our mission in life.

Love you mate. These thread ain't the same without you. Take a break, have a nice burgundy and listen to Lucia Popp singing "Song to the Moon" from Dvorak's Rusalka, unless they paid you full time to get into these threads:)

JDWILL,

Well said!!! Hopefully the so called peaceful Muslim commentators on this blog will practice your final recommendations:

"Don't waste your time with TU Quoque (smear the opponent with you too) arguments about what problems America has. Don't waste your time parsing verses of the Quran. Don't waste your time misdirecting the argument with the race card.

Just show the world with your actions who you are. By your fruits we will know you."

Abu Ibrahim, thanks for your reply.

Regarding Sharia law, many Westerners assume that it imposes legal and social restrictions on women. Is that accurate? I oppose attempts by any culture to impose such restrictions by gender or race or religion. It has nothing to do with me as a Westerner passing judgment on non-Western cultures - it has to do with me as a world citizen supporting for the moral rights of the individual.

Many cultures have arranged marriages, including some Western ones, and I oppose that practice as well. It's not my place to force such cultures to change that practice, but it is my place to say that no individual should be forced to marry someone not of his or her choice.

"And no cheating! Don't cut and paste a whole paragraph from Wikipedia. And please no links."

OK, then. Just a name - Hajiyeh Esmaelvand.

That is why I am concerned about Shariah law.

Moroccan,

"You guys don't realize how racist and prejudiced you sound when you speak about Muslims as if they were one people from the same country."

This conversation is over. You are simply, and unfairly letting loose with a diatribe. Allow me to reciprocate.

And,

"To suggest that Muslims in America are trying to impose their ways on others is ridiculous and beyond reasonable."

I made a reasonable mention of some Muslims that were testing the system to see if they could in fact, impose their views on others.

I am beginning to suspect that many of you Muslim posters are the bigots. You are running a script that says we Americans are stupid racists and you think that playing the R card trumps us because of guilt.

The six Imams that provoked a response on a flight recently and then filed a lawsuit are another clear case. Anyone that can't see there is an agenda and collusion between some Muslims is missing some important clues.

I am not saying that all Muslims are some uniform Borg that must be feared and fought. But there is a school of thought, an ideology, that is trying to run one on us, and I am pretty sure you are in that group.

You will eventually fail because your script doesn't really match reality. Every unprovoked sectarian murder, such as the one in Turkey this week, every riot over some trumped up offence, drives another nail into your ideologies coffin.

"Only humble India doesn't go around lecturing others with those empty slogans that come out of the US."

Really. Another clear example of your arrogance in thinking you are dealing with people whose only information comes from pablum TV. Anyone remote familiar with Google can easily look up the horrificly violent sectarian violence that has plagued India and Pakistan (and Kashmir) since the partition.

Americans are right to be sceptical about Islam and its intentions. As I began in this thread, I will finish:

Don't waste your time with TU Quoque (smear the opponent with you too) arguments about what problems America has. Don't waste your time parsing verses of the Quran. Don't waste your time misdirecting the argument with the race card.

Just show the world with your actions who you are. By your fruits we will know you.

Well,

Many Muslim countries, including Pakistan, Brunei, Bangladesh and Malaysia, have a Shariah law and court system covering Islamic Family Law governing marraiges, divorces, alimony and child support.

As for crime from murder, rape to libel etc, the civil or secular laws and court system is applied.

So, there is a parallel legal system going on so to speak in many Muslim countries - the Shariah law and courts system, and the civil law and court system.

In many Muslim countries too, the Shariah law is not applicable to non-Muslims, but only civil laws for them.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated :)

You always go on the same old, same old with every new Muslim and old Muslim who get into the On Faith threads don't you?

By the way, your government is vetting stringently all Muslims overseas wishing to get into the US before issuing the visa. This may take months for many going to the US for business, study and tourism. So, there are not many foreign Muslims on US public transportation, housing and offices areas except of course the American Muslims.

And Muslim countries don't impose such stringent visa requirements for Americans visiting or invading their countries. They were given visas upon arrival at airports or none at all if they parachute in.

Don't be so xenophobic Concerned. Did a bunker, build a wall if you want to if you have not already done so. Don't fly and use public transportation if you don't want to, rely on the "pretty wingy things". But don't have an intellectual Maginot Line or be paranoid.

Abu,

It is good that you will stay out of my neighborhood and off any public transportation I might be riding on. Your belief in a hallucinating "wannabe" prophet, Mohammend, may there be no peace upon his head, and his Koranic messages makes you a terror threat.

Does it bother you that if someone in Iran said/wrote that Mohammed was a hallucinating "wannabe" prophet that said person would be immediately executed?

Concerened:

You really aren't that bright are you? What part of "I will never, ever, ever, ever, condemn anythng written in the Quran" do you not understand?

First I don't have to answer anything I don't want to. And just like you can't keep me from moving into your neighborhood, you can't make me answer them either.

Second, I do not have to, nor do I want to prove anything to you. I do not care what you think of me or Islam.

Third. Get this through your head. I am a FUN-DA-MENT-A-LIST. I believe in the fundamentals of Islam and I thank God I do. Therefore, as far as I am concerened, Islam is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

But, since I like a good debate I'll humor you. Plus it gives me a chance to make fun of you.

Do I condemn the killing of Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites? Yeah, that's a real intelligent question. I am a Muslim. Of course I condemn Muslims killing Muslims.

America and its troops are in Iraq for one reason and it has 9 letters: OIL BOURSE. The US dollar is weak and getting weaker. The US economy hardly manufactures anything anymore and what it does either has stiff competition (American Boeing and French Airbus) or nobody really wants (American cars). The only things we still manufacture for export on a large scale are weapons.

Understand this bright boy: All oil on this planet is bought and sold in US dollars. And since every nation needs oil, every nation needs US dollars. That is what keeps the demand for the US dollar relatively high. Without oil, not only will America's vast military be no more than big, rusty toys, the American economy would collapse.

In 2000, Saddam Hussein decided to break the mold and declared Iraq was no longer selling its oil using US dollars. Instead, he was going to only accept the new Euro currency. He did this partly because he hated America, and partly because the dollar was performing badly (remember Dot.Bomb?)

Interestingly, that same year George Bush (the son of an oil tycoon who was also a CIA agent) became president in a very suspicious election. Less than a year later, the World Trade Center is attacked, and less than two years after that, the US invades and conquers Iraq. And guess what currency Iraq sells its oil in now? Go on, I'll wait.

That's why American troops are in Iraq; to maintain America's dominance over world oil, which sustains our society.

And no, US troops will most likely never leave Iraq. Even if the civil war does stop, the US will continue to operate numerous military bases.

I don't know what Iran is doing these days. Never been there, and since they don't play baseball, I'm not very interested in going.

As for the verses of the Quran, I must repeat: "I will never, ever, ever, condemn anything" that is in the Quran. If you see the Quran as militaristic and anti-female you aren't the first and won't be the last person who hates the truth of the Quran, and twists its meanings to fit their agenda. Which doesn't make you much better than the terrorists you speak of.

I will not dignify the question of Prophet Muhammad (may Allah be pleased with him) with a response. Suffice it to say, were I alive at the same time he was, I would give everthing I own to be one of his "henchmen".

I'm not concerned about the changes made in the Bible. Just proves that it can't be God's word.

Anyway, this back and forth bores me. If you want to respond that's up to you, but I'm done with it. You hate Islam and Muslims fine; I'll hate you right back and will feel good doing it.

JDWILL:

I was not talking about the Amish.

To suggest that Muslims in America are trying to impose their ways on others is ridiculous and beyond reasonable.

Some Muslims may try to ask for accommodating some of their sincere beliefs. That's the case of the cab drivers even though in this case they should have known that it was unreasonable. Let them go to court and let the courts do their job. Why capitalize on it for the purpose of harassing Muslims in the US? It is so unfair.

Where I come from, in Morocco, I never heard of a case in which cab drivers refuse to transport tourists carrying alcohol. This was specific to that community of cab drivers. You guys don't realize how racist and prejudiced you sound when you speak about Muslims as if they were one people from the same country. Imagine if I went to certain towns in the US and issued blank statements against Christians because of something I witnessed. Imagine people generalizing about all Christians in the world because of what they experienced in some US town with some individual.

There are many cases in America in which pharmacists refuse to provide birth control pills to customers. In many if not most conservative states, local governments do everything they can to restrict the availability of birth control. Good luck finding a "Planned Parenthood" in right-wing states. Many catholic hospitals make it difficult for raped girls to get the necessary pills to avoid pregnancy.

All of the above doesn't bother you much, does it?

The only reason is that it doesn't have "Islam" written on it.

And please try not to lecture foreigners about "melting-pots". Have you ever been to the black ghettos of most urban cities in the US? why don't I see melting-pots in those poor de-facto segregated neighborhoods?

India with its countless religions and languages (17 official languages and countless dialects) is far more diverse than America by a long shot. Only humble India doesn't go around lecturing others with those empty slogans that come out of the US.

Respectfully.

As usual the commenting Muslims "duck" the fundamental questions. Once again, please answer Yes to the following to show your specific condemnation of Islamic terrorist activities that you exhaustively generalize in your commentaries.

Do you condemn the 24/7 blood bath of the Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq?

Do you believe American troops are in Iraq to help quell this civil war?

Do you believe that American troops would leave Iraq if the civil war ceased?

Do you believe Iran is a supportor of international terror in order to further the Shiite/Islamic cause?

Do you renounce all of the militaristic and anti-female passages of the Koran?

Do you believe that Mohammed and his henchmen's main agenda was the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers?

The OT and NT have been "Crossanized" and cleansed to remove myths and embellishments. Do you believe the Koran needs a similar bath to remove the many myths that Islamic terrorists use to justify their cause?

Concerned:

Man, you are sad. A little ignorant and kinda stoopid, but still sad.

As if you could actually keep me from moving into your neighborhood if I wanted to. Or that you could actually keep me from getting on any bus or plane I wanted without physically interferring, which I assure you would result in a very unpleasant outcome.

First, I will never, ever, ever, ever, condemn anything written in the Quran. Not a single chapter. Not a single verse. Not a single line. Not a single word. Not a single letter. May Allah protect me from ever committing such a crime.

Militaristic verses in the Quran? Anti-Female passages? Like Fred Sanford said: "You big dummy!" What, do you actually care about Muslim women? Yeah, whatever. I'm not going to give some weak, namby-pamby "we love the world" answers a lotta of these Rodney King Muslims give. I'll tell it you straight.

Islam is all about perfect Monotheism, in Arabic, Tawheed. It is perfectly worshipping our Lord and Creator. Now matter how much you hate Islam (and you evidently do), Tawheed, or perfect monotheism is what makes Islam unique. And that is what keeps Islam growing strong despite all you guys do to stop it. Despite the anti-Islamic spin the media puts on the news, Islam is growing everyday, even in Western countries. Despite the oppression put upon faithful Muslims by their own governments. Despite the crushing wars the West has waged against Muslims. Despite the unjustified imprisonement of thousands of Muslim men, both leaders and commonfolk. Islam still moves forward, continuously growing in momentum.

Islam still marches on. And it will continue to as long as Allah wills. I couldn't care less about your apprehension of Muslims on a plane. Just shows how big of a xenophobic coward you are.

Anonymous:

I'm sorry for the miscommunication. Allow me to clarify. I meant Americans should not worry about Islam taking over America. As far as Islamic movements overthrowing secular governments in Muslim countries, that is very likely scenario. However, I'm certain America would step in and correct any such aberration.

Also, I am not at all against Muslim countries adopting Shariah. I believe it is the perfect code of law, and I believe it should be applied to all aspects of a Muslim's life. Put simply, the Muslim world for the most part, was pretty wealthy and the center of culture and learning when Islamic governments used Shariah (Umayyad, Abbassid, Ottoman Caliphate). Once they got involved in secularism everything started going to hell.

You are right that many Muslim nations would vote for Shariah law if given the chance (so how much do you guys really want democracy in the Muslim world?). And I also feel there is a misunderstanding of what Shariah is. I can better answer your question if you tell me what is your understanding of Shariah.

And no cheating! Don't cut and paste a whole paragraph from Wikipedia. And please no links. I ask this because your definition of Western common law is similar to Shariah. All people do stand equal before the law regardless of religion.

Lemme know what you think and I'll try to answer as best as I can.

Tonio:

The feelings of resentment against America amongst Muslims outside of America, right or wrong, stems from the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Muslims have been living in close proximity with Christians and Jews for centuries and there have been very few problems.

Though I am totally against the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government, that does not at all justify suicide bombings of any sort. That is not Jihad. That's murder.

Other issues exacerbate the problem, and the modern media exploits it, and before long you have the 'us against them' scenario that we have today. There is nothing religious about hating America. Inevitably, many Muslims will hate America because of its penchant for invading Muslim countries, and these same people will use Islam to justify their hatred. It can only be expected that an occupied people would hate the invasion and hate the occupier (wouldn't we hate it if Mexico invaded California? Wait, bad example).

Also, I'm somewhat hesitant to speak for Muslims in other countries. I'm sitting in America, rather comfortable, with a can of Pineapple Sunkist nearby (that sucker tastes good). I cannot speak as someone in Iraq could, who is living in constant fear.

However, just as certain as I am that fixing the situation in Palestine/Israel would remove 75% of the reasons some Muslims act up, I am also certain this problem will not get fixed in our lifetime. Not peacefully at least.

Sorry guys. I call 'em as I see 'em.

That last anonymous was me.

Maurie Beck

Moroccan - Many processed foods in the US are often marked with the "Kosher" sign, why is that? Wouldn't some say that it is applying Jewish law?

You statement above is completely wrong. The U.S. government has nothing to do with promoting kosher products. If the government forced people to keep a kosher household, then you would have a point and that would violate the establishment clause in the first amendment. The only reason there are "kosher" foods is that there is a demand for them from a certain segment of the Jewish community. Those companies that provide kosher products have a rabbi on hand to make sure the products are up to kosher specifications. The consumers demand this authentification system, but the government is not involved. Of course, if types of kosher meat are produced, then USDA meat inspectors
still must certify that the meat is safe, but not that it is kosher.

Moroccan,

We also make some allowances for the Quakers and Amish, with whom I am a little more familiar. The big caveat is how much jurisdictional overlap you are trying to resolve. Many of these groups keep their interaction with the larger public very structured and limited. Muslims in the US tend to be mixed in with the urban population and the US urban environments are not suited to 'cantons'.

Many Americans I talk to are becoming concerned that our 'melting-pot' is not really assimilating people anymore. A case in point is the recent attempt by Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis-St. Paul to refuse service to passengers carrying alchohol. A similar case in Melbourne, Australia had the Muslim cabbies also refusing to take blind passengers with seeing-eye dogs.

Now who is pressuring who to conform?

JDWILL:

"That doesn't exactly answer my question. To paraphrase, Can you see a scenario where Jewish law would be given a sector in the US where it could have jurisdiction?"

It depends on what you mean by jurisdiction.

But to answer your question, I think you never heard of the Satmar Jewish community and their battles in courts related to one of their towns (Kiryas Joel) in upstate New York. Look it up.

Many processed foods in the US are often marked with the "Kosher" sign, why is that? Wouldn't some say that it is applying Jewish law?

I personally don't find it offensive but I know for a fact that if some company dares to indicate the same from the perspective of Islamic law, everybody will be screaming.."they are trying to apply Sharia in America!".

Abu,

You noted, "We Muslims must 'fix' the way we practice Islam and how we present it to others."

So where in your commentary was the condemnation of the militaristic and anti-female passages of the Koran?

Where was your condemnation of the main agenda of the founders of Islam i.e. the plunder and looting of the lands of non-believers?

Where was your condemnation of the Shiite/Sunni 24/7 blood bath in Iraq, a blood bath that continues to require the presence of American troops?

These condemnations made in a public forum like the On Faith blog would sure ease my tension when I fly on an airplane with a Muslim on board.

In the meantime, stay out of my neighborhood and off any public transportation I might be riding.

KILI FAQIRAN, Pakistan (AP) - The boy with the knife looks barely 12. In a high-pitched voice, he denounces the bound, blindfolded man before him as an American spy. Then he hacks off the captive's head to cries of "God is great!" and hoists it in triumph by the hair.

"'objective and responsible' US media?"

I doubt you could find any faction in the US that would characterize the media thusly. Especially the responsible part.

That doesn't exactly answer my question. To paraphrase, Can you see a scenario where Jewish law would be given a sector in the US where it could have jurisdiction?

Anonymoys:

Sharia Law itself is not some evil law as the media tries to tell us.

Orthodox Jewish law is applied in Israel for marriage/divorce matters for its Jewish citizens, as such Jewish Israeli citizens can not marry non-Jewish citizens in Israel.

All Israeli state run institutions are not allowed to operate on Saturdays because of Jewish law. The Israeli national airline does not fly on Saturday.

There are many other examples that I can list.

Please tell me why we don't hear much about it in the so-called "objective and responsible" US media?

On the contrary, all we read in the US media is that Israel upholds western standards!

It boils down to anti-Muslim prejudice and hatred.

The post at April 20, 2007 1:43 PM is mine. Forgot to save info.

Abu Ibrahim,

Informative post, thanks.

"To sum it all up, you cannot 'fix' Islam with secularism. We Muslims must 'fix' the way we practice Islam and how we present it to others."

I agree completely. And I agree that our Western society could use a more spiritual focus. However, I detect a conflict in your statements where it seems that you are telling us not to worry and list several countries that don't have Shariah law, but also declare that a devout Muslim will use Islam as a guide in every facet of his or her life. Since Shariah law is an integral part of Islam, wouldn't you be arguing for Shariah law wherever there is a sufficient community of Muslims?

From what I read, many of the 'secular' countries you list (and some you don't) would adopt Shariah law if it were put to a vote. How will you reconcile this in a Western setting where we have a common law tradition that requires all to stand before one law regardless of religion?

Abu Ibrahim:

Good post.

As you noted, it is not that Muslim nations are not run by "secular governments" (for the most part), what these so-called "social liberals", who are equally prejudiced against Muslims as right-wingers, want is to change the way Muslim individuals conduct their daily lives.

If it was not for this war on Iraq, the right-wingers in the US are actually less of a threat to Muslim/Arab nations than the liberals.

The liberals, while they do not call for invasions/wars, subscribe to some kind of "cultural colonialism" agenda. They believe they hold the ultimate truth in terms of how societies should be setup or run and they do what they can to make that happen. In America, they engage the other side on equal terms, but outside of America it is often in the terms of a superpower (they decide what we the backward people have to do).

As I liberal myself, I no longer identify with the mainstream liberals in the US. In America you've got to shift everything to the right to get an accurate view of their positions. The extreme left, which is marginalized in the US, is what would be accurately described as liberal. They are the people running Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and so on.

The mainstream left in America is the one that signs off on weapon delivery to Israel in the middle of their assault on Lebanon. Find me one mainstream liberal in America who questioned that.

It was the mainstream left in America that maintained the harsh sanctions on Iraq (Ms. Albright famous and shameless "It is worth the price") that killed so many children unnecessary.

Few liberals like Soros are breaking away with the mainstream left and moving further left for the same reasons I mentioned above.

Any human being with a clean conscience and with sincere appreciation for human rights (not the slogans that Ms. Jacoby chants to us) should not support the current mainstream left unless out of necessity (to counterweight the right-wingers).

Abu Ibrahim, thank you for your post. I don't believe that Islam is "going to take over America." (If any religion was likely to do that, it would likely be Christian fundamentalism.) I can't deny my preference for "separation of church and state" in every government in the world, because I see any kind of theocracy as inherently dangerous and repressive. Ideally, no government would tell its citizens what religious beliefs they should or shouldn't hold.

What drives the longstanding anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world? Is it inherently a religious issue, or is it really a political issue with a religious veneer? Is the focus on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict about who owns the land holy to several religions? Do most Muslims see America and Israel as practicing rehashed colonialism, as successors to the British and French? Or is the interplay of both political and religious factors too complicated to separate the two?

A few disclaimers:

1. I am Muslim. Trying to be devout. Pretty darn conservative.

2. I am an American. Love baseball. Love Pepsi. Not too fond of American Idol.

3. I am somewhat educated. Bachelor's degree. Graduated with honors. Couldn't tell from my current salary.

4. I have a pretty extensive Islamic education. Studied Islam and got the degree to prove it. But can't give fatawa (that's plural for fatwa, so please stop saying 'fatwas'). I leave that for the big boys.

As far as I am concerned, Islam is the truth plain and simple. I don't expect the non-Muslims to believe me, and that's fine. You have a right to believe whatever you want.

As far as secular Islam goes, you guys really need to check the facts. There are very few Muslim countries that make the Shariah the state law. I'm thinking Saudi, Iran (I know they're Shiite but we're being inclusive today), and some of the Gulf states. Oh and by the way, Iraq was very secular before America got involved, and we see how enlightened those guys were.

Secular Islam (and there is no such thing) is not the answer to today's problems in the Muslim world. Committed leadership, a more balanced share of wealth, and unity amongst Muslims (that ever fleeting dream) is the answer. And of course true, full, sincere, and rational application of Islamic principles.

You don't have to worry about exporting secularism to the Muslim world. It's already there! Check out every single country that has a majority Muslim population and see how many list Shariah as its code of law. You'll see very few.

Turkey - no Shariah there
Syria - no Shariah there
Jordan - no Shariah there
Malaysia - no Shariah there
Mauritania - no Shariah there
Khazakhstan - no Shariah there
Senegal - no Shariah there

I can go on and on, but besides Saudia Arabia, some gulf states, Sudan, and maybe Iran, the governments that run the Muslim world are pretty darn secular.

That means that if the Muslim world is all crappy, and secular governments are running the show in all of these Muslim countries, then it only stands to reason that most of the problems were caused by the secular governments. Or at the very least, they're at fault for letting the problems develop. And you can forget about secularizing the religion itself. You're a good 200 years away from that.

Now that I've dealt with the secular Islam stuff, allow me to give a heartfelt tribute to the life I've chosen to live. Islam is a powerful and dynamic connection between man and his Creator. Islam is more than just a religion, or just a faith. Islam is a form of living that literally governs every waking moment of a true believers life. And do not underestimate what I am saying: Every truly devout Muslim uses Islam as a compass or a guide in almost every act they do. Islam will not be uprooted by installing TV's and Playstations throughout the Muslim world. My kids watch more TV than is healthy and they can still quote numerous chapters from the Qur'an by heart (all praises due to Allah). My sisters are all beautiful, articulate, educated women, yet they willingly wear their hijabs everywhere they go.

Islam is not going to take over America. At some point (and I hope soon, cause I really wanna feel comfortable flying on planes again) a balance will come between American Muslims and America. At some point there will be 30-40 million Muslims in this country and we're going to realize things will be a lot easier if we just vote and boycott rather than yell and demonstrate. And at some point folks will realize the futility of being Cubs fans. Well, 2 outta 3 ain't bad.

To sum it all up, you cannot 'fix' Islam with secularism. We Muslims must 'fix' the way we practice Islam and how we present it to others.

"And also, when was the last time a Muslim state waged war against another state just because the other state is non-Muslim?"

The constant warmongering between Pakistan and India? The Palestinian "state" vs Israel? The Arab states vs Israel? Somalia vs. Ethiopia? Sunni Muslims (Saudi Arabia) vs Shiites (Iraq/Iran- non Muslim as per the Wahhabis) )

From CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/03/iraq.cleric.ap/index.html
"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.
Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

Anonymous - The AEI is NOT a Christian conserative think tank.......

In the interview I saw, she was responding to questions from two fellows who were clearly from the Christian conservative side of the spectrum.

Susan Jacoby:

As you see, persons like Abdo and others are hell-bent to uphold Islamic fundamentalism. So, no matter how much West wants to reach out to Muslims, the end result will be the same: islam shall always travel the fundamentalist path. Just as Naguib Mahfooz was knifed in Cairo, so all these liberal, secular Muslims shall meet humiliation and in some cases physical attack.

Please abandon the project that is doomed to failure. The group should, in view of Genevive Abdo's remarks, declare Islam is a violent religion and move on.

One simple question. If the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, why do radical Islamist parties always do so well when there are elections in Islamic countries?

Jihadist,

Thanks for your great post and your nice absolution (I guess that's what it was) of me. I look forward to our further discussions.

Cheers & Best Wishes!

Miguel et al:

Interseting Friend: Grat sias & Praise the LORD! Ya Ya.

Is there only one islam?
I don't think so, muslims in Somalia are much different than say lebanon or china or india.
the much talked female circuncision is only practiced in Africa, and not only by muslims, but my christians, and animists too. in cristian Ghana, is still practiced, they mention Sarah was cricumcised and very hard to convince them otherwise. this custom predates christianty.
btw how much the west is responsible for the islamic revival? i would say a lot; specially in regards to the muslim brotherhood, which were championed to weaken the arab nationalistic movements. and later used as cause celebre to fight communism. say afghanistan.

Hello Norrie Hoyt:)

I was playing the "over the top" other position here. Doing a sort of combi Ann Coulter/Maureen Dowd and not successfully too obviously.

You may not agree with what I have written, as I was soundbiting the views of the "lesser" against the "greater" power, the "Muslim angst" re western political/economic/cultural/economic colonization and now US imperialism/colonization of the same that still coloured the writings of Muslim writers in the Muslim world. In gist, playing out the "blame game" here to reflect the wider game of blaming one another but the self.

As for Iraq, it was exercabated by US invasion and occupation. There are "provocateurs" from neighbouring Sunni and Shiite states in heightening the Sunni-Shiite conflict in Iraq. Needless to say, non-Middle East Muslims are appalled by the cynical manipulation for control and power in Iraq at the cost of Iraqi lives.

As for Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I was again trying to point out, in a seemingly cavalier way, that their experiences and writings are irrelevant to the wider Muslim world. There is certainly real contempt many Muslims outside the west has for them. It may be a fact Ms. Jacoby, you and others in the west find that reprehensible from a humane and human rights perspective, but the truth is, the wider Muslim world are absorded in their own issues, including human rights and good governance. The western media trotting them out again and again is not going to change the state of the wider Muslim world and beget negative reactions instead. Mistrust is high of US/western intentions in the wider Muslim world.

Come on my friend, I don't even regard Buddhists as all peaceniks regardless of the teachings of Buddha, much less my fellow co-religionists. In fact, I have a higher respect and concern for Ms. Aung Sun Suu Chi, the Lady of Burma, than Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It's fine to disagree with me. I never died from anyone disagreeing with me.

But never forget that I, as ever, will put in the take as from the angle of a female, beige Muslim world living in the third world just to multiculturalize these almost white Christian male threads in On Faith. Nothing racist or sexist, but for colour and flavour and diversity of views as always. It is all about perceptions and notions that I am playing along with here. May we learn from one another in ways offensive, defensive, educational, inspirational, enlightening, heartening spurious, and ridiculous. And you don't have to step in to defend Ms Jacoby, never mind she does do threadus interuptus to clarify or explain sometimes. She is a smart woman, sometimes mean towards believers (deserved sometimes, but sometimes not), but mostly magnificent in what she wrote. She can take as good as she give. And I'm a fan of hers - her gumption, her wit, her enegertic and passionate writings.

Don't ever lose your sense of fun and frisson here my friend.

It is very simple, eliminate the militant and anti-female passages in the Koran.

The NT has been cleansed, by the likes of Armstrong and Crossan and the Jesus Seminarians.

The OT has been relegated to the myth pile.

It is time to bring the Koran into the modern world via a good realistic bath.

i also saw ms hirsi in 2 separate interviews, one where she contended that there is no such thing as moderate muslims, all muslims are fundamentalists, (to the discomfort of the panelists), instructed a US congressman (incorrectly) on how the american judicial system works, and in another interview proclaim that american christians no longer hold the belief in hell- where she was instantly disavowed of this misperception.

of course she is welcome to AEI, she is vocally and maliciously anti-muslim- and makes no qualms about expressing her outright hatred of islam.
she appeals to those who also hate- as a quasi-spokeperson to justify it.

her knowledge of islam itself is not thorough or scholarly.
she speaks about the cultural and traditional practices by people-

it would be like my going to a muslim fundamentalist country and talking about snake handlers as representative of christians.

not flinching is not necessarily a good thing.
it can also indicate a mind that is rigidly set and not processing new ideas as they enter it.

Maurie,

The AEI is NOT a Christian conserative think tank, it is a neo-conservative institution - a distinctly pro-war Jewish movement (wolfowitz, feith, pearl, strauss) that is using Ali as an example to vilify Islam. "Look here, at this poor opportunistic women" now fund the war that we orchestrated with Iraq and restrict the rights of all Americans in the name of safety from "terrorists" that this women sells in her book.

Fear = control. Fear is what keeps them in business and in the "in-crowd" in Washington!

What about violence in the name of secular progress? 100 million were killed in the 20th cen. as the results of such movements - especially communism.

Everyone here likes to point out the pathologies found within religion and aviod pathologies of reason, atheism and secular movements that are just as malevolent.

The next question should be:
Is are secular humanists inherently violent?

I'm a social liberal and I concur with Susan Jacoby. It's not that multicultural liberals raise their voices in support a person's right to advocate retrograde religious ideas. Rather, they don't raise their voice in opposition to those ideas, whereas they often do against the same sorts of ideas espoused by fundamentalist Christians. Bad ideas are bad ideas and they must be confronted.

As far as Hirsi Ali, I'm surprised she is at the conservative American Enterprise Institute. Perhaps they were the first to extend a welcome. Regardless, she takes a decidedly light hand (in much the same way that multiculturalists are apologists in their quietude) to some of the AEI's positions, especially pertaining to Christian fundamentalism. I remember hearing her on Book TV, giving a talk on her book at the AEI. Christian fundamentalists were asking questions that tried to spin her words on rationality and she hardly flinched.

Dear Susan Jacoby:

I was appalled by what I read in your entry.

Somehow it is inferred in your piece that a liberal can never argue in bigoted terms. I understand it is easy to pick on right-wingers but trust me it is not that hard to find liberals who are equally engage in anti-Muslim bigotry.

"Do I think that western values upholding universal human rights and individual liberties--products of the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the constitutional separation of church and state pioneered by the U.S. Constitution--are superior to what I see in the Islamic world today? You bet."

You bet the millions of blacks who were pretty much enslaved until the 1960s (Jim Crow laws with the support of the supreme court) had a good taste of those "enlightened and reformed" views.

How about the 6 million Jews and millions of others who were killed by the enlightened and reformed ideas that guided Germany into modernity, development...and finally modern savagery in the 20th century. And don't forget the few enlightened and reformed European states that joined the Nazis.

And let's not forget how many millions Europe killed in its colonial quest under the banner of "enlightenment and reformation".

Somehow Ms. Jacoby just wants us to forget about these heinous crimes of almost no equivalence in recent world history (and I am not even mentioning the Vietnam butchery that killed more than 2 million civilians) as if they happened centuries ago in the dark ages as opposed to the enlightened ages.

It is too soon to forget Ms. Jacoby, and now after the war on Iraq, it will take longer.

Russell,

Good, I thought it was just me!

the question itself is leading and offensive.

one can only adopt a defensive posture

i would ask ms jacoby, how many evangelists speak at atheists symposiums?

or how many christian gatherings does ms jacoby speak at?
hirsi and warraq are not simply secularists.
they are vehemently anti-islam

the question comes right after everyone is hurting from the VT violence- and is irresponsible journalism.

journalists are not supposed to tell us what we think, but present objective information so that we can decide for ourselves.

It is all about the founders of Islam.

A brief summary:

Mohammed was illiterate.

Ref.: See Karen Armstrong's books on world religions. Karen is an On-Faith Panelist.
"Karen Armstrong
Prominent author on religious history
Karen Armstrong’s books about different religions, including her highly acclaimed “A History of God,” have made her one of the most prominent authors on religious history. Since September 11, 2001, she has been a frequent contributor to conferences, panels, newspapers, periodicals and broadcast media on the subject of Islam.

Mohammed hallucinated-

i.e. he talked to angels ("pretty wingy thingies). We all know angels are mythical creatures blended into the OT, NT and Koran by scribes familiar with ancient extinct religions.
Refs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel and http://www.likeacat.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1
"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "
"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

Mohammed's scribal henchmen and fellow founders of Islam had militaristic agendas of looting/plundering the lands of non-believers.

Refs: Common sense and any world history book. Angels did not reveal god's word since angels don't exist so scribe(s) had to write the militant passages of the Koran but that might be letting ole Mohammed off the hook as a dictator of not only Arabic tribes but also of many disturbing words and ideas. The looting and plundering of the lands of non-believers is history. The history continues with the contemporary Sunni/Shiite bloodletting and the statements by Bin Laden, Islamic clerics throughout the Mideast and the leaders of Iran."
Professor JD Crossan "crossanized" the NT to bring it into the realm of the real world. He should now "crossanize" the Koran to remove its militant and anti-female rhetoric.

When Moslems accept this contemporary and realistic view of Mohammed and the other founders of Islam and renounce all the militaristic and anti-female messages of the Koran then I will accept that Islam is not a violent religion.

Unfortunately, HTML is disabled in the replies. Otherwise, someone could have easily thrown a lone </em> into their reply and stopped this madness. The only hope now is that the webmaster or Jacoby herself edit the original post and fix the errant <em>.

Instead of <em>On Faith</em>, Jacoby wrote <em>On Faith<em>, which is just the beginning HTML markup for italics written twice (instead of the opening markup <em> followed by the closing markup </em>).

Ok, who wrote the source code for Susan's page? It is tripping me out! Somebody fix it! PRONTO!

Jihadist, my dear internet friend,

You are wonderful and your posts have been wonderful.

I think, though, that this post doesn't measure up to your usual high standard.

I think you're too defensive about things that can't be defended.

For example, "As for the ordeal of Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, surely you will not presume others out here have not gone through worse."

You surely recognize that it is not a rational justification of a bad happening to say it was not as bad as other happenings.

I think you may have gone too far in justifying contemporary Islamic violence on the basis of Western colonialism. What about the Muslim-on-Muslim violence in Iraq? Even if the current Iraqi violence is to some extent a hangover of colonialism, what do you say about the thousands of Muslim bodies found with drill holes in their bodies, burns, and other evidences of torture? Are those not signs of violence by committed believers in Islam?

I hate disagreeing with you over something as basic as whether Islam "is a violent religion."
Certainly most Muslims are not violent, but enough religiously committed Muslims are violent that it makes Islam appear to be a violent religion.

I look forward to continuing our exchanges. How was your latest trip?

Jacoby makes some excellent points. One quibble - I question her claim that a large cadre of "multiculturalist American liberals" are acting as apologists for Islamic fundamentalism. I hear the same claim from some conservative Christian commentators, who seem to have a vested interest in condemning Islam in general. I suspect the apologists are only a vocal minority among liberals, and that Jacoby is misreading that as the majority opinion.

Even among that vocal minority, their real motivation has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with a view of the world as the big guys against the little guys. They dismiss talk about secular democratic values in the Middle East as America acting like a colonial power.

First of all, I just want to commend you for providing such an insightful and subtle analysis of this week's question. Too many people are too willing to lump all of Islam into one category and say of it that it is either not the "true" Islam, or that it is the true Islam and it needs to be erased.

I'd like to propose for your consideration, however, that the women in places like Cairo are not as coerced as you seem to think. Their is definitely an atmosphere of coercion, no doubt, but many of these women have convinced themselves that it is actually in their best interest to wear a head scarf. This is the interesting problem for defenders of (what Isaiah Berlin called) "negative" liberty (i.e., one is 'free' to the extent that one is not kept from acting as he or she wills): if a person is convinced by all the powers of persuasion and manipulative mind games that some course of action is in their best interest and they then take that course of action, are they doing so of their own free will or have they been coerced?

This is the situation in Cairo and around the world. Consider Afghanistan: Muslim women were apparently oppressed into wearing cumbersome coverings (burqas); but when the strict laws of the Taliban were removed, most women continued to wear the "oppressive" burqas. Why? The answer seems to be that there was a culture in Afghanistan that emerged from long Taleban rule where people (men and women) adopted the norm of their oppressors and so continued to "voluntarily oppress" themselves.

My point is twofold: first, how are we to say that Islam oppresses people when those people often have been raised to believe in Islam and have accepted its "oppressive" norms? and two, by what common standard of morality can we in the West condemn the coercion of women in Islam while at the same time convincing those in the Middle East that it would be in their best interest to separate state and "church"? Many Muslims seem committed to the ideal that their religion is the most perfect embodiment of their political ideals, and it is not for no reason: that is what their scripture tells them to believe. So how can we endorse Islam as a private faith when it explicitly commends that its followers enlarge the scope of their religion to the public level?

Ms Susan Jacoby

A very interesting and thoughful piece by you as always. iT filled in several questions rattling in my mind about your last piece on the media and my little dig on Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

That was quite a monologue by you. Let me just talk here instead of putting "considered" points. Random obvious thoughts on what you've said actually, and for you to fill in between the lines or paragraphs.

Surely you don't expect the US to export "secular Islam" as defined by secular American Muslims when it is even having trouble exporting and promoting "democracy" selectively in the Muslim world.

Of course there is a connection between politics and Islam. The Qur'an is very specific in calling for Muslims to fight against occupation, tyranny and corrruption. It has nothing to do with retrograde religious beliefs held by Muslims in the wider world. The Muslim mass also don't know who Geoge Washington is, much less Enlightment for not many have access to the kind of education say, Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali would have. Their families are not exactly poor. And certainly these urban middle and upper middle class chidlren from India and Somalia respectively would be detached from the rural people of their own societies. Hence their barely contained contempt in their writings for their societies of origin.

Political Islam is also initiated by the educated laymen in the last century in the quest for independence from colonization to seeking alternative forms of governance for what they see as failed "secular" governance wracked by mismanagement, tainted by corruption and failure to deliver economic and social advancements for their peoples. The originators and advocates of political Islam are also not exactly from the rural areas. Many are educated in the west and from middle class and upper middle class families. You can say that they are the flip of secular Muslims in being Islamists.

As for international terrorism and the repression of women connected to fundamentalist Islam, well true but consider also a man repressed and oppressed do over-react in getting some control, any control and to assert authority over his society. As always, minorities and women are easy prey in poor and mostly uneducated societies. Even in developed countries, but more subtle.

Islamism is the practical application of Islamic principles and not necessarily a bad thing in the minds of Muslims seeking modernization, not westernization, of their societies. The western world is build up on Judeo-Christian heritage. Some Muslims wants to build up their societies based on Islamic heritage, history and cultural traditions.

Muslims don't look at Islam as irrational. More and more educated Muslims, be they laymen or ulema, don't really focus on the so-called "supernatural fantasy" but to apply Islamic principles. What you meant, I believe, is the Shariah law formulated centuries ago, still applied, and which certainly needed to be updated and/or revised if they are extant.

And no, God/Allah did not promise anyone anthing for killing themselves and others. Hope you are not reading the fatwas by some of Hamas and Hezbollahs more irresponsible and politicized ulemas. There is nothing virtuous in what they are doing, but imams and ulemas have to respond to their communities' needs and to maintain the fabric of a community torn apart by violence.
Can you imagine a Muslim cleric saying to his community to turn the other cheek when the community is being deprived of their rights and be at the receiving end of armed assaults?

The so-called American multiculturalists are certainly prudent in stating the US have no right to "impose" western values on others. What they actually meant is, interfering. I believe you know what happens whan US interfere in the affairs of another state - be it Vietnam, Iran or Indonesia etc post WWII.

It is right for a westerner to believe western values, human rights, individual liberties are superior to what is in the Islamic world today. Muslims sees their values to be superior too, seeing the decadence, greed, corruption, hyporicrisy etc of the west. But the advocates and proponents of western values above all seem to forget that the Muslim world is still mostly in developing countries. And they certainly do gloss over western values as practiced in non-Muslim Africa, Latin America and Asia. Hope you have been reading up on, say Brazil, Burma, China too.

Yes, I want modernization and liberalization too, but once there is a whiff of US support, these initiatives lose credibility in the eyes of Muslims. It is as if we are babies or children who have to be told what to think, how to think and what to do within our own societies and countries.

The so-called "resurgent Islamic fundamentalism" is actually politicized Islam in reaction to what Muslim believe are neo-American imperialism to dominate their countries politically and economically. What happens in the Middle East reinforce this belief.

I would not blame US liberals. They have been under assaults from the American right and neocons and can barely defend themselves in the US media, much less support secular or liberal Muslim men and women. Speaking up is not the same as acting up at the ground level. Words gets lost in the din of bombs and bullets. Actions never lie.

As for the declaration on human rights etc by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq et al, they can go on insisting and demanding, for what they said are not covered by the media in the Muslim world. Their declaration has the force of a UN resolution at the General Asssembly level and sounds as high-minded too.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is nothing if states do not accede to the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Become state parties to those two covenants and a state will have to be answerable to the UN/Council on Human Rights on the implementation of the rights at the national level.

What now they are lecturing us too :) - "We say to Muslim believers" sounds like a Sura in the Qur'an. But I am glad that they also said, "we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent." I do question them and dissent their interference and assuptions.

By the way, for Muslims, "secular" means being godless. So, it is as undesirable as being labelled as a neo-con in the US now.

And do note that Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), is more effective in reaching out to the wider Muslim world and has forged myriad linkages with many Muslim NGOs in the Muslim world. What they said, about "Reformation" as another attempt by the West to impose its history and philosophy on the Islamic world is what the wider Muslim world really thinks. I would pay attention to what CAIR is saying for it is not off the mark on that.

Refugees sometimes do exaggerate their cases to get into another country. When Abdo used the word "claiming" at the hand of "radical" Islam, that was an apparent swipe at Hirsi Ali who seem to have confused traditions with Islam. It is not "radical" Islam as much as fossilized traditions where female circurcision/genitalia mutilations and forced marraiges are concerned. Under Shariah law, a woman has to consent to marraige. But in reality, that is to be addressed. Traditions do trump.

Islamic revivalism is really politicized Muslims asserting their rights to look at their own intellectual and religious heritage to build up on. It will put you off perhaps, but I really don't want to adopt wholesale the western way, but to adapt them. The lame analogy I would use is that it is ridiculous to wear a three piece suit in a equotarial climate.

American Muslims adopting religious symbolism are a reaction to and in defiance of negative potrayals of Muslims. One do dig in as a defence mechanism and as a minority. Muslims in the US have to choice - to keep their faith personal and continue being Muslims or to "assimilate" like the Jews in 17th, 18th and 19th century Europe.
Or, they, already fragmented in various shades of Islam, as in the wider Muslim world, fragment further, not only on politicals, but on religious practices.

As for the ordeal of Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, surely you will not presume others out here have not gone through worse. Remember that woman raped in Pakistan by elders as punishment for something her younger brother did? Surely you don't expect Muslims in the wider world to continue to be flogged with the experiences of Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. For what it is worth, at least they can afford bodyguards or have bodygaurds provided by the state. I am more concerned about the poor and marginilized ones, who don't have the money, the recourse and the knowledge on how to fight for their rights.

And the reason Muslims leave out secularists in conferences is because we can't agree among ourselves as yet, and to limit dialogue to adherents of other faiths because adherents of other faiths do tend to vilify each other too much instead of focusing on the larger issues.

Well sister, I got to go.

Best regards