Ho Ho Ho: We Spit On Heathen "Happy Holiday" Greetings

DZ,
May the energy of peace and love envelope you and your family at this time. It is hard to know what to say...

May you find strength in memories,

terra

Mod:

I was trying to think of a way to express the same thing without sounding trite.

DZ - Light and positive energy coming your way.

Moderate - that was lovely.

DZ - I echo Moderate's words, as I imagine a lot of readers here would, irrespective of their religious persuasion.

Dear DZ:

In the end your love for her and hers for you is what matters. "Everything else is crap."

DZ, my thoughts are with you.

DZ--

I am deeply sorry to hear that you and your wife are going through this. There are never adequate words in situations like this.

Very truly yours,

Susan

to DZ:
Your personal crisis certainly puts this discussion into perspective. Comfort and peace to you and your family.

I live in one of the most secular places in America - Portland, OR - and no one cares about the words that are used. Use what works for you, give everyone some slack, etc. I am an atheist, but I have always enjoyed the closeness and comfort of my family, and the holidays are special for me.

Today, my wife comes home from the hospital to die. 3 years of fighting ovarian cancer, and it's over. She's also an atheist, but she wanted a Christmas tree and all the related stuff - stuff she remembers from her childhood. So, I did all that.

We need to focus on what we have in common and how we can coexist harmoniously. Everything else is crap.

No, Daniel, you're not losing your mind, I have similar recollections. We didn't go around saying "Merry christmas" to anyone, except if we knew they were christians and we knew we weren't going to see them on Christmas.

My parents, who were catholic, sent "Season's greetings" type cards out to everyone on their list - probably mainly other Catholics.

My town was majority Catholic and there was never any tensions among religions that I recall.

Someone, thanks for the compliment.

"Someone who is naive and/or ignorant, could read your comment and assume Christians are totally at fault, and non-Christians have done nothing wrong. I thought it only fair to give people both sides of the story, and those being that both Christians and non-Christians are at fault here."

That was not my intention, and you are right that there is some fault on both sides. My criticism was directed at the demagogues, the commentators who insist there is a deliberate effort to undermine or even destroy Christianity. They have a record of distorting incidents to claim persecution, such as turning Cassie Bernall into a Christian martyr, or even promoting hoaxes such as the Ashley Pollack case in Pennsylvania.

I have some more memories of growing up in my Southern town. I would sincerely invite anyone to comment here, especially Christians, or others, who think that there is a secular "War on Christmas."

In my small Southern town in the 50's and 60's, everyone was somehow affiliated with one of the 12 churches. But of course, it just goes without saying, that even though each and every one of us was "Christian," some were more religious than others, and some went to church often, and some never, and the various churches held and maintained grudges and bad feelings amnong themselves, against each other, of varying degrees of hostility; but one thing most of us agreed on: the Catholics were apostates and all going to Hell. (I suppose the Catholics would disagree, but they all knew to keep their heads down, and to try and get along).

In those days, no one ever heard of or dreamed of a secular "war on Christmas." But there is such a thing as accomodating to the real world, and getting along with people, whom you live among, and not throwing religious or political bombs at people whom you disagree with, since you will be rubbing shoulders with them all year long.

I very clearly and distinctly remember that we said "Seasons Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" in more formal circumstances, and to strangers at Christmas gatherings, or on the street. When you were dealing with people whom you did not know well, nor at all, it was the custom to say something "noncommittal." That is a fact that I very clearly remember. Does anyone have memories or experiences to back me up, or contradict me?

And I remember that my parents had two cards that they sent out, one was a secular card, and one was a Christian card, and they judged and picked and chose who among their friends would get which card. This is not a new custom; being sensitive to the beliefs of others is not new; does anyone else remember these types of customs from so long ago, or even longer ago?

The greeting "Merry Christmas" was reserved more for close friends, loved ones, and family members. And, "Merry Christmas" was a greeting that you said on Christmas Eve, and on Christmas Day, and not in November, right after the Thanksgiving dishes were cleared away.

The problem with Christmas today is not that people don't say "Merry Christmas." After all, there is nothing in the Bible about it, and Jesus did not say anything about it; it is just another nit-picking tangent, relating more to people's compulsions, grudges, and politics but little to do with spirituality, nor religion, nor Christianity.

The problem with Christmas today is the problem of plenty and want, that some people have so much, that they do not know how to handle all that they have, and they do not know how to give, nor recieve, even more, and ever more, and more, and more stuff; it is all sort of mixed up with greed and glutony, and mindless materialism.

And then there is the contrast of the want, when other people do not have enough, and their want is accentuated during the Chrismas holiday season, so that they feel a little extra wince of poverty, during Chrismas, which they may not normally feel.

Anyway, off the subject again. My main point, relating to Susan Jacoby's essay, is that all my life, stretching back to the 1950's, people celebrating Christmas have always accomodated others who are not as interested in the celebration, for whatever reason, and that saying "Happy Holidays," and giving a nod to the secular celebration is not new at all, but very, very old. And that therefore the "war on Christmas" is a complete fiction, more a chip on some people's shoulders, than anything real. Does anyone have any similar memories? Or is this just all in my head?

Yes, what you said is one of the reasons for suicides by some Scandinavians - long winter and not much daylight making people depressed and Igmar Bergman to make those dark and depressing movies too perhaps.

To good company anywhere, anytime.

Goodnight and regards
"J"

Ofcourse they have high suicide rates! It's freakin' cold and there is nothing to do! However, a warm fire and good company would prevent me from ever dreaming of suicide.

Hello Luke,

You stated: "....but the Christmas carols really bother me (no matter who sings them) - so my friend Tim and I have "Merry Deathmas" where we listen to Scandinavian black and death metal and build a fire at his house. We laugh, we cry, we headbang."

Scandinavian black and death metal? Should I worry about you? The Scandinavians have one of the highest suicide rates in the world, especially in winter.

Reading posts in On Faith on Christmas made me realise that my attitude towards Christmas may be a bit odd. I enjoy receiving Christmas cards from friends, acquaintances and clients from all over the world with wonderfully different artwork influenced by their culture.

I'm also sent bottles of wine from all over with names and vintages I only know of from the labels. There's the Italian Prunotto, or is it Trunotto? Barbaresco (very florid scrip) and Fontana Candida, Kumkani from South Africa, and Australian wines with names like Heron's Wing, Banrock Station, Paddox Hill. I never knew Chile produce wines until I received a couple of bottles. I lined them up in my office as if they are oversized snuff bottles to everyone's amusement.

Most of all, I enjoy reading letters from Christian organisations and churches asking for donations that starts with "Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!" and ended with, "The Good Lord be with you always and shower you with His blessings" and such like religious salutations.

My personal favourite this year so far is one that started as this:

"Thank you most humbly, in Our Eternal Divine Royal Lord Jesus Christ Most Holy Reverence Name, for the time you will take to peruse our letter with contents."

..and ended the letter with:

"May the humble prayers of our people to Our Divine Lord Jesus Christ, bless you and your family in this precious Holy Advent Season."

Non-Muslims know Muslims don't celebrate Christmas, drink alcohol or regard Jesus as the Son of God. And here I was, again, getting Christmas cards and wines and not minding it. Getting a card or a letter stating Jesus is the Son of God is at once amusing and bemusing as believing so is a blasphemy for Muslims. But then, there is the Sura that says, "To you your belief, to me mine."

The Christmas greeting cards and wines are send in good cheer. The wine givers are merely noting my appreciation for good food and putting into practice what they always preach to me - the enjoyment and appreciation of good food will never be complete if not complemented by fine wine. One even say if I won't or can't drink wine, at least, to put the right wine on the table when I'm eating an exceptionally fine dish as accompaniment. So bourgeois and Francophile.

The Christian organisations and churches letters asking for donations are for good social causes. They pray for me and pray that I support their causes. Can't see anything evil in that, even if they are blasphemers on Jesus from my Muslim point of view, and I am sinful in not accepting Jesus as the Son of God from their Christian point of view:).

Regards
"J"

Susan:

"Of course we shouldn't refrain from wishing people a happy holiday because we don't know their religion."

What if they have no religion and are offended by the idea of a midwinter celebration with various multi religious overtones? Aren't you persecuting them by saying Happy Holidays?

VOTE: ((( Peace Love Rockn Roll nRap Mitt_ROMNEY for Prez 08 YEA!. Happy Every Day, Thanks ))))

To Jan from Minnesota:

Your story about your kids made my day, gave me a good laugh. Not off topic at all, in my opinion.

Happy holidays,

Susan Jacoby

JJ,
Having Bush on tape saying that we were not a religion..and having access of emails between the WhiteHouse and the VA, thanks to the Freedom of Information act, is what got the VA's attention...and won us the case against the VA. We are a religion, and the Gov. was guilty of discrimination..you have heard of the First Ammendment?

When we threatened to take the head of the VA and Bush to court, they decided it was not worth fighting. And they paid the lawyers fees, fees of 10 years worth of fighting.
Yes JJ...Wicca is a religion..and there is a Santa Claus. He just looks like Thomas Jefferson at times.

terra

Jan;

Very funny.I laughed out loud at that one.

Sounds like JJ is back.

President BUSH said, "PAGANS are not a religion.."!

Multy Godddesses & multi G-ddds! Not MONO G-d!

PAGANS need to get a LIFE (have Photon Knowledge), aka REALITY , a.k.a TRANSFINITY!

VOTE: ABOLISH ALL IMPORTED Religions in Sweet Sweet U.S.A., Includes imported Greek/Roman ancient State Religions etc..!

VOTE: ECLATi-ON PARTY [nevrr OFF's] for Gridarian-Democracy & Transfinite Civilization now!

Embargo All Foerighn & Alien Religions in AMEWRICA today! And More. Ya Ya!

This is way off topic but I thought I’d leave a little holiday cheer for us Susan Jacoby fans.
I have a 4 year old daughter and a 3 year old son. My son loves Elmo. My daughter goes to a preschool in a Lutheran church and she gets all this confusing religious stuff thrown at her, like, Joseph and Mary are Jesus’ mommy and daddy, but also Jesus is the son of God. We all sit in their bedroom, and she asks “Who is God? Is it Joseph?” I say, no.. “She says, is it Mary?”, I say, no… My son says “is it Elmo?”

As a pagan, I have no problem with people wishing me a Merry Christmas. That's great! I like Christmas decorations, and carols and many of the other stuff that goes with the season. However, a meaningful Happy Holidays makes me feel just little special. It's the feeling of "Not everyone celebrates Christmas, I'm not sure if you are or not, so whatever you do, enjoy it!!"

As for all the "secular" attacks and other b.s. that many Fox news announcers broadcast, let's think for a minute. 50+ years ago, you'd walk down the street and probably assume everyone you meet was, in some way, Christian (well, for a large percentage of Americans). Nowadays, America is becoming more and more diverse, or at least people are more willing to admit that they are diverse. We could try and be all inclusive with our signs, government religion mentions, school breaks, but that leads to nonsense like school's letting out for a "Chaunakwannasolstidantetmas" break. And who really wants to deal with that? I think it's time for religion to return back to the home and the self and to become personal, rather then having people bicker about what ugly plastic light up religious decoration we're going to put in front of city hall.

I agree that "Someone" seems to have a pretty hostile attitude, in general; I don't get it; if you're not bothered by anybody, then why list all the un-named exceptions?

And Lisa said,

"Geez, Susan always sounds so fed up with the rest of us who just don't get it. I guess the world would be a better place if everyone were as sarcastic and condescending as she is."

Well Lisa, I guess that must mean you're doing your best to make the world a better place.

botta-bing!

I apologize for the poor grammar. It was 1 in the morning, and I was a bit tired as you could imagine.

Yes, it was a compliment to Terra, but not a slam to everyone else...only to those who degrade others and feel they have to start name calling like a little 5 year old. That is SOOO childish and unnecessary. If someone wants to believe that SpongeBob is the God of this universe, who the heck cares? Let them believe what they like. If it does not draw blood or put you in eminent danger, then let people believe in whatever they like. (When I say "you," I'm not addressing YOU personally E Fav. I'm addressing everyone who's reading this. I use the pronoun "you" a lot but do not mean anything by it. I'm sure you understand.)

I am leaving the country for a while and will most likely have no time to reply. My apologies. I am not ignoring anyone, its just that my ministry calls me elsewhere.

I wish everyone a great Christmas season this year and I hope and pray we will work on our New Year's Resolutions this year. Whether it be to loose a few pounds you've been hanging on to, getting over your bitterness towards others, forgiving someone, overcoming that addiction you may have, helping someone in need...whatever it is, this world needs more good(America especially), so good luck!

God bless!!!!!

So this is Christmas... Let’s argue about the same old stuff but give it a fresh holiday twist and a cup of eggnog.

We respond to every miniscule thought or belief that doesn’t line up with our hypersensitive worldview like a bear caught in a steel trap, wildly screaming in pain and anger, swinging his arms in all directions to maul whoever approaches.

We are creatures of condition by choice. We trap ourselves within out insecurities. Most of us don’t want to be free. We’re conditioned. We’re comfortable. We have an “us” to love and a “they” to hate. But we don’t have peace… and never will.

We don't have to live this way.

“We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”
MLK Jr.

Someone: "Terra: Hey whats up? It's good hearing from you, and I appreciate the kindness in your replies. There are not a whole lot of people on these forums that I have respect for, but you are not one of them."

I'm not certain, given the multiple use of negatives above, but I think this is meant as a compliment to Terra and a slam to others, is that right?

Geez, Susan always sounds so fed up with the rest of us who just don't get it. I guess the world would be a better place if everyone were as sarcastic and condescending as she is.

I work IT in for an upper-class retail company, so I hate Christmas with a passion. I like pretty trees and lights and all and I appreciate people being compassionate and kind for a single day during the year, but the Christmas carols really bother me (no matter who sings them) - so my friend Tim and I have "Merry Deathmas" where we listen to Scandinavian black and death metal and build a fire at his house. We laugh, we cry, we headbang.

Terra: Hey whats up? It's good hearing from you, and I appreciate the kindness in your replies. There are not a whole lot of people on these forums that I have respect for, but you are not one of them.

You said "And I do not know any Pagan that gets all pissy over being wished a Merry Christmas. What makes us all want to erupt is that Christians insist we want to take away their Christmas. That is stupid and a blatant way for the worshippers of Chaos to make some sheckles to enable them to cause more chaos/ratings."

First of all, the comment you made "worshippers of Chaos" was a very subtle and unnecessary comment. I understand that, since you are a Pagan, you have your issues with Christians. But do you see me taking cheap shots are your religion? No. There are plenty of things I could say, but I don't. I have a very high respect for individuals of ALL religions, and I do not look down on them for not being a Christian. Please show me, and every other Christian, the same respect, and I trust you will.

But, what you said, besides the "worshippers of Chaos" remark, is partially correct. Christians are wrong to act this way, but the majority do not. You make it seem as though most, if not all, Christians act this way. At least that is how it came off to me. You have taken a few radical morons, and one small town in New England, and made an assumption that Christians, as a whole, act like they do. That is an absolutely false statement and I think you know that.

A recent survey by Britannica, found in the Up Front Magazine, showed that 31 percent of Americans are Christians. Now, whether that is true or not, I don't know. I honestly have my doubts about that survey, but I am simply using it to make a point. Christians are the largest religious group in America at this time, and to take a few radical's comments and assume that 1/3rd of America is in the same boat is absolutely absurd. But I do understand where you are coming from, and you have every right to be pissed off at Christians who act the way you have described, but please understand that this does not include the majority. I, as a Christian, apologize for the inexcusable behavior of some "Christians" nowadays.

You also said: "It's all about equality in this land of ...well you get it. I hope." Yes, I do get it, and you could not be any closer to the truth. That's what makes America such a great country. We are free to worship and celebrate as we please.

Tonio: I also would like to thank you for your kind reply. Your suggestion is definitely one to consider, and is most likely true. I was simply replying to your comment to, in a polite way, "defend" Christians. Someone who is naive and/or ignorant, could read your comment and assume Christians are totally at fault, and non-Christians have done nothing wrong. I thought it only fair to give people both sides of the story, and those being that both Christians and non-Christians are at fault here. I think we all have made a bigger deal out of Christmas than necessary. If a Christian wants to celebrate Christ's birth, GREAT. By all means, please do. If and Atheist wants to celebrate the joy and happiness of the holidays, and leave Christ out of it, who cares??? This season ought to be a time to love each other...to get along. But we have made a HUGE deal out of nothing, and both sides of the spectrum are guilty for it. That’s all I am trying to say.

I wish you, Terra, and everyone else here a...

Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
Happy Hanukkah
Happy New Year
Or anything else that makes you happy. Instead of fighting over the meaning of Christmas, lets just enjoy it. Like I said, this is a free country and we are free to celebrate Christmas as we wish. But lets keep that to ourselves. There is no need of forcing your beliefs on other people, or looking down on those who do not share your opinions.

God bless!!!!!

Thanks D. in the L.D.

Nothing piques my curiosity more than censorship!

RE: Jozevz .... Isn't that just a usual posting for Jozevz anyway? lol

Jozevz typed out a single sentence about his comments being banned on this thread, and then he copied and pasted it over and over until it repeated at least a thousand times, and took up about 75% of the comments of the total of about 50 commenters when he did that. I am guessing a number of people complained to the Washington Post, probably including Susan Jacoby, and his very long comment was removed. So, it was nothing so horribly bad, just a little weird.

Back to the topic at hand ...

As an atheist, I personally celebrate christmas/solstice without any overtly religious components. The tree is the closest thing I have to a religious symbol (please don't lecture my about it's pagan origins, it's just a pretty tree to me) and I decorate it with small ornaments honoring the diversity of the world's religions and cultures.

It's fun to give gifts and share in the good cheer no matter what religious connections others might have with the season. If I know someone celebrates christmas (religious or otherwise), I wish them merry christmas. If I know they don't celebrate christmas or if I'm not sure, I wish them happy holidays.

But no matter what the tradition, people (scrooges) that make a big deal out of what greeting is offered have completely missed the point anyway.

Bah Humbug!

Someone,

I admit I have no hard data. My general impression of people in all social groups is that the vast majority are fairly reasonable. Each group has a vocal minority with a chip on its shoulder. Al Sharpton doesn't speak for blacks, and Pat Robertson doesn't speak for Christians.

"I do not go through ONE day where someone will look at me cross-eyed, or give me a devilish remark simply because I said Merry Christmas."

While I understand why you would object to their reaction, it's possible that the reaction has nothing to do with Christianity. Maybe you happen to encounter many non-Christians who belong to the vocal minority, or who have had bad personal experiences with Christians trying to convert them. Obviously that is pure speculation. I'm saying that it's wrong to characterize non-Christians as being hostile to Christmas or Christianity.

My last 2 posts were dropped (by the moderator?).

All I want to know is why Jozevz got banned?

Can someone (anyone) fill me in?

Meg or anyone else who knows,

What on earth did Jozevz say that got him banned?

Was it anything more than the usual wacky posting?

I don't normally read those posts because they are kinda hard to read and follow but now I'm curious?

Did he call someone an @ssole or what?

Someone..
As a Pagan with an all over the place family...I smile at those who wish me a Merry Christmas and I wish them a Happy Yule. I am not upset in the least by the greetings...that person was honoring me with a warm and nice wish...as I am them.

And I do not know any Pagan that gets all pissy over being wished a Merry Christmas. What makes us all want to erupt is thatChristians insist we want to take away their Christmas. That is stupid and a blatant way for the worshippers of Chaos to make some sheckles to enable them to cause more chaos/ratings.Tain't so. We acknowledge that you have Christmas..and we are happy for you...many of us have Christian family and celebrate with them...what is maddening is that we are expected to kowtow to your holiday but we can not even get our's off work.

It's all about equality in this land of ...well you get it. I hope.
terra

(from the commenter, formerly known ambiguosly, as "Daniel")

I have a different experience than "someone" who feels that people give him a hard time for saying Merry Christmas. No one has ever given me a hard time for saying it, nor looked at me funny, nor made me feel that I had said something wrong. Of course, I am a little shy, and don't shout it out from the roof tops, nor say it to every stranger I meet on the street; I don't assume that everyone is a Christian, and if not, there must be something wrong with them.

Still, I do as I please, go where I please, say "Merry Christmas" to whomever I please, and I just plain don't have a problem with it. This is a tiny and insignifigant problem. This, as a problem, would indicate a very sheltered and shallow life, with lots and lots of spare time to dwell on infintesimal things. I wish I could be so worried, about such a little thing.

Tonio: "I've been saying all along that the vast majority of non-Christians aren't offended by "Merry Christmas."

I will not dispute this, simply because I have no proof. However, I don't know where your facts are to support this statement. Maybe there is a poll or a survey you found that supports this claim, but I have not seen it, but would like to if one exists. Again, I am not saying you are wrong, but I will tell you this much...

I am obviously a Christian, and as a force-of-habit, I say Merry Christmas to practically everyone I see. Christmas to me is the greatest time of year. It is a time of joy, happiness, relaxation, (as HMM said) and any other noun found in most Christmas carols. But to be honest with you. I do not go through ONE day where someone will look at me cross-eyed, or give me a devilish remark simply because I said Merry Christmas. I honestly don't understand what is so wrong with saying the name of the holiday. Its not my fault Christmas is called CHRISTmas.

So I wont disagree with you, Tonio, that the majority of non-Christians does not have a problem with it, but I will say this - the people who DO have a problem with it is not a small, rare minority either.

OH, and I thought it necessary to PRAISE GOD for the absence of Jehovez (I think that was his name). Maybe your call paid out John Stephens!!!

To clarify my meaning, the sentence should read, "I see the purpose behind Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings as acknowledging religious diversity, as opposed to avoiding offending non-Christians." I've been saying all along that the vast majority of non-Christians aren't offended by "Merry Christmas."

from: http://members.tripod.com/~TaraMiller/halloween.html

"Halloween: The Pagan Festival of Samhain

Paganism, and Druidry especially, recognise eight feasts durring the yearly cycle or the Eight Fold Year. These celebrations are based upon a deep and mysterious connection between our individual lives and the source of this planet’s life. Like any other religious ocassion, these Pagan holidays are marked by special observances.

The most popular festival, in ancient times as well as modern Pagan society, is Samhain or Samhuinn, (pronounced Sou’in) the Celtic new year.

Halloween Myths

1) The pumpkin God, Samhain ( pronounced Sam’hane) DOES NOT exist.

2) Pagans DO NOT sacrifice babies or animals on Halloween. The Wiccan Rede states "Do what thou wilst, but harm none."

3) Pagans DO NOT worship the Devil or Satan on Halloween.

4) PAGANS ARE NOT SATANISTS.

These myths have been perpetuated by people who have seen too many horror movies and the Christian idea of horrific and mythical forms of Satanism. "

And contemporary Wiccan witches (commentators?) note:

And contemporary Wiccans note:

"Also, some Wiccans feel that the tradition is offensive to "real witches" for promoting stereotypical caricatures of "wicked witches".[45] However, other Neopagans, perhaps most of them, see it as a harmless holiday in which some of the old traditions are celebrated by the mainstream culture, albeit in a different manner

Truth: Very well said. But be prepared for the onslaught of comments letting you know that you are a retard, as if you need some special revelation from some know-it-all who, in reality, knows nothing but his own bias. Good luck!!!

Louisully, your point is the same general one I've been making. I see the purpose behind Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings as acknowledging religious diversity, not to avoid offending non-Christians. The real problem is that demagogues are claiming that such greetings amount to anti-Christian repression. Did you read the entry on this site by Irwin Kula?

Ms. Jacoby,

Your essay and the subsequent responses epitomizes the confusion that grips the inhabitants of our world..including yours, modern Christianity, and all else.

For you see, the passage of Revelation 12:9 extraordinarily encompasses all that mankind has brought on himself thru allowing ourseleves to be allied with answers to life that are no answers at all..rather, they are error. To our credit, though,in most cases, simply due to lack of knowledge and not necessarily intentional. So, this particular passage in Revelation applies with regard to the current holiday being discussed, modern Christianity, Atheism, Buddhism and on it goes. But the family of man, overall, cannot be told that it is our problem (what Rev. 12:9 says)..it is what we have brought on ourselves. "No, we are all not deceived..how could anyone think that"..we, as a whole, say.

Think again.

One God + thousands of human interpretations = human induced confusion about God.

Where is God, some may ask, in all of this? Why doesnt He show himself and lead us all in the right way?

Well...He did...at first. We (beginning with those before us) basically tell God 'hands off'..so here we are...learning our lesson.

By the way...He will intervene in our confusion before we destroy ourselves. Thats a promise (from scripture)

"Well said, TJ. That was part of my point. I don't feel personally compelled to tell people to enjoy their holiday. But some people see that as Scroogeish. I was questioning the need to have that social custom in the first place."

I think "happy holidays" and "seasons greetings" are simply niceties, like wishing someone "good morning" or "have a nice evening." Again, I wish that people could simple judge each other on intention: when I make a pleasantry by wishing you a happy holiday, I'm not demanding that you enjoy yourself, I'm just wishing you well. With all the rudeness we encounter on a daily basis, I don't understand why a kind wish expressed is so controversial.

"I question the apparent need to turn everything into a Hallmark moment. Your question kind of frames the situation as 'I have to tell people that I want them to enjoy their holiday, how do I do it?'. I take a different tack and ask 'Why do I feel compelled to assert myself and my opinion in to their holiday?'"

Well said, TJ. That was part of my point. I don't feel personally compelled to tell people to enjoy their holiday. But some people see that as Scroogeish. I was questioning the need to have that social custom in the first place.

I think Dickens had more to do with the way we celebrate Xmas than religion does. In the UK anyway.
Its all about the holly and the ivy,and the yule log,and Christmas trees,and turkey and presents.

As I understand it,a December celebration precedes
Christianity by hundreds of years;has to do with winter solstice and pagan rituals,and was later hijacked by Christians,most of whom had been pagans themselves.
My Christmases had no religious component when I
was growing up in Wales during WW2,and never has since then.
Religion is a pain in the neck,and just plain silly.

Daniel;

Maybe there's three of you.Maybe four or five.
I'm not sure which one you are,but obviously you're not the atheist one.
As an atheist myself,I must confess a bias towards
that one,whose comments I generally agree with.
I've also seen another Drew posting comments here,from
time to time,who is also a nonbeliever.
Its a very small world here on WPFaith threads.

Dear Drew

I know, I know. The "Daniel" who writes logically excellent pieces, that's probably me, isn't it, don't you think? I claim to be that "Daniel," the excellent one. When I started posting, I never gave it a thought. Now I see a unique name is kind of important. So, let me think about it a little.

(Who knew there could be 2 people in the world with the same first name)?

Daniel;

There is another Daniel;maybe two.
One is atheist who often writes logically excellent pieces,another comes across as very religious.
It's a common enough name. If you are the religious one,what's wrong with being Daniel R.(for religious)
or Daniel X.
Don't see the problem.
Seasons greetings to you anyway.Enjoy Christmas.
Drew.

Being mean to the mentally ill doesn't help them or accomplish anything. Reporting the offensive comments should be enough to get it stopped.

Jacob Jozevz;
I have reported your comments to the moderator.
Hopefully your comments will result in you being
terminated on these threads.
Does your therapist realize what you are doing in your spare time? Have you stopped taking your medication again?
You are a complete @ssole.

I have noticed another guy named Daniel who posts occaisionally, in a style very similiar to my own, but his temper seems a little harsher. Is he doing it on purpose? or is it just a coincidence? I am not sure. (I am still working on my new name, in case he is "just another Daniel").

This is, once more, just an observation. I grew up in a small Southern town in the 1950's. I very distinctly remember the custom, even way back then, that people commonaly said "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings." So these are not new secular incursions into Chrhistmas. These greetings have been around for a very long time. It is paranoid to suppose that their use is some kind of anti-Christian conspiracy.

Another point, as a Christian, I find the celebration of Christmas to be intrusive and dominating; it is wearying. Wow! How must it make Jewish people or atheists feel? And even more, I have Christian friends who do not feel joyous at Christmas, but they get depressed. When I say depressed, I do not mean they get cranky or scroogish; they get sad; very, very sad. It is diffucult for them, and difficult for me to watch. I spend a lot of my Christmas season, not trying to make these people happier, but just trying to help them get through it all, until the days of January, when they start to get better.

Who even cares what sort of greetings that you get from strangers on the street, or sales people in stores? Who even cares if you don't get all your cards out, or don't get all your gifts bought and wrapped, or if you don't get all your lights up, or if you weren't the life of the many Christmas parties? (I guess alot of people care).

My suggestion is that Christmas should be celebrated every 4 years, like the Olympics.

Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Years, and as we used to say in the South, "Seasons Greetings" to all.

As an agnostic, I've never been offended by Merry Christmas. Ditto most of my friends.

And when I was a Christian I was not offended by Happy Holidays.

Maybe it's the season, but around this time of year Christians always seem to start competing with Muslims for having the thinnest skins on the planet.

Get over yourselves.

And Happy Holidays!

Right on! Ms. Jacoby articulates very well the frustration I've felt at the insensitivity and bigotry of the majority toward minority creeds in the U.S. - supposedly the country where liberty and tolerance reign. The "Christianity is under attack" business is all about raising money for right-wing organizations that wish to force their religious beliefs on every one - it is not grounded in facts or reality in any way. Where is the morality of the "values politics" crowd?

Jozevz,

Because I have nothing nice to say to you, I just scroll through your typically verbose, crap filled pidgin English posts because I know it is unkind to verbally abuse the mentally challenged. Furthermore, I believe strongly in your right to express yourself freely, even if it is the text equivalent of a pre-schooler's fingerpainting. However, this time you go too far!

If you are having trouble with the admistrators of the forum, I feel for you. If you seek help from other posters in solving your problem I understand.

However, this tantrum is not only counter-productive, it is extremely infantile. You can't get your way so you attempt to ruin things for everyone else. You need to either act like an adult, or go elsewhere.

SERIOUSLY!

"The early founders at Plymouth Rock were escaping religious persecution, but their goal was to establish their own theocracy."

Kacoo, you're right about the theocracy part. But the Pilgrims had already escaped persecution by leaving England for Holland. They left Holland simply because they didn't want to assimilate.

"used to live in a rather smallish city in Lousiana. When October 31st fell on a Sunday, the city council was in a panic for weeks before over whether to allow kids to trick-or-treat (they stopped just shy of calling Halloween a Satanic holiday in so many words) on "the Lord's day." They actually decided to allow kids to trick-or-treat on Saturday instead, and threatened anyone who tried to do it on Sunday with arrest on a charge of disturbing the peace."

Lepidopteryx, thanks for sharing that sad story. The city council's actions definitely breached the wall between church and state. Not because of any religions origins of Halloween, but because the council members used its own religious belief as the basis for law. Whatever the religious origins of Halloween, the reality is that the day is a secular celebration for the vast majority of Americans, who are entitled to celebrate it as such. The idea of Halloween being Satanic is not borne out by the day's religious origins, so one can simply ascribe that belief to paranoia stemming from lack of knowledge.

Tonio asks: "Does anyone have another solution to address the principle of religious diversity? Should we refrain from giving holiday well-wishes to acquaintances when we don't know their religion?"

I question the apparent need to turn everything into a Hallmark moment. Your question kind of frames the situation as "I have to tell people that I want them to enjoy their holiday, how do I do it?". I take a different tack and ask "Why do I feel compelled to assert myself and my opinion in to their holiday?".

I like to solve problems by making the problems go away. Solutions are rarely needed because most problems simply don't need to be solved because they aren't actually problems at all.

BTW, the year they rescheduled Halloween, I threw a Halloween party - in my front yard - on Sunday.

CCNL: "Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed day of Halloween."

How many Halloween displays do you see on the courthouse lawn? My guess is not many.
And here's an interesting aencdote for you:
I used to live in a rather smallish city in Lousiana. When October 31st fell on a Sunday, the city council was in a panic for weeks before over whether to allow kids to trick-or-treat (they stopped just shy of calling Halloween a Satanic holiday in so many words) on "the Lord's day." They actually decided to allow kids to trick-or-treat on Saturday instead, and threatened anyone who tried to do it on Sunday with arrest on a charge of disturbing the peace. I wrote them letters, wrote letters to the editors of several newspapers that had circulation there, and tried to get an appointment to speak to the mayor - all to no avail. While I realize that today's trick-or-treating activities are far removed from their religious origins, they are still associated with a religious holiday. Would the council have told people that they couldn't go caroling on December 22nd because that was the Solstice - ie another faith's holy day? I never heard of them asking people to reschedule Christmas celebrations because the 25th fell on a Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath.
I don't want to take away anyone's Chrsitmas celebrations. Enjoy them - please. I happen to think Jesus was a nice guy. But they don't get to monopolize the idea of a holy day. They don't get to mandate rescheduling of other faiths' holy days. And they don't own the month of December.

It would be nice if you could all have a good time, enjoy your family, feel warm in the house when it's cold outside ... all that good crap.
But, apparently not. There seems to be a growing number of people, Christian whiners mostly but others as well, who won't let us enjoy the season unless we enjoy it their way.

Every year at this time I am reminded of what the great philosopher Archie Bunker said: christmas is once again at our throats.

I had not considered it, but Susan Jacoby is right. It was the Christians who founded America who gave it freedom of religion.

Actually, the freedom of religion idea comes from Catholics who founded Maryland and who did not want to pay taxes to fund the Anglican Church of England. The early founders at Plymouth Rock were escaping religious persecution, but their goal was to establish their own theocracy. They didn't view theocracy as a mistake. They just wanted a piece of the action.

HMM,
Righto, righto, you're standing on me righ' toe.

I, for one, intend to call Jon Meachem or Sally Quinn tomorrow and ask why they can't bounce the Bozo from the circus. They must have a computer geek who can condemn him to eternal cyberspace.

MM, Terra! :)

Wouldn't worry about CCNL, he still hasn't apologized for all that calling us Muslim terrorists thing. :)

Still trying to tell us what we believe, though.

Btw, that quote actually *is* from the Bible, after some checking, unlike a lot of conventional wisdom with thee's and thou's in it thus attributed. :)

CCNL,
So what fictional accounts do we have on our hallowed day of Halloween? Umm? try the proper name for the day...ok?

Pagan is capitolized...so it is Pagan...not pagan. Unless you want Christian to be christian.

terra

" John Stephens:

Jesus said it best and most succinctly: "Physician, heal thyself."

Actually, I'm pretty sure that was Shakespeare.

CCNL:

"Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed day of Halloween."

Do we, now.

Cite one.

If we consider nativity scenes as just more fictional accounts about good people (e.g. Santa Clause and his elves, Gabriel, Moroni et al), "do no harm to such scenes" or to the associated commentary. Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed day of Halloween.

I am a Christian. I don't care if there is a Christmas tree in front of the town hall, even the Grinch understood that wasn't what Christmas was all about. To reduce Christmas to a battle over whether a plastic illuminated nativity should be allowed in a public building is to trivialize this "holy day" and detract from it's true meaning. It reduces it to a vehicle of manipulation in the political and social spheres.
It might be a good thing if every church was torn down, if every symbol of Christianity were removed. Then Christians would have only their actions to speak for who they are. I wonder if others would be able to identify us without big crosses hanging around our necks. If Christians are so hung up on making a public statement about their beliefs, I think instead of fighting for an ten foot inflatable manger to be put in public park, they should greet others with "peace be with you". Or maybe, if they are so devout, they should say grace before they dig into that hamburger at the fast food resturant. They might even try putting same effort they use to fight for the right to say a prayer in school to ENDING A WAR or FEEDING THE HUNGRY. Now that I've said that, I'm not going to waste any more of my time arguing this rediculous point, I think I'll go try to do some good somewhere.

Oh, and to take this issue with JJ one step further. This guy (I hope that assumption is correct) is disrupting good conversation among commenters who genuinely want to converse. If you want to get rid of his comments, click on the "Report Offensive Comments" link. This guy has no place on this forum, or any other for that matter, until he gets his act straight. It is unprofessional and childish, and I for one will not put up with it. He seems like a very smart and educated man, and I have a very high respect for him, but this is honestly ridiculous.

Jesus said it best and most succinctly: "Physician, heal thyself." So-called Christians have made such a mess of the faith that secularists, agnostics, and atheists are mere smoke in the wind compared to the tempestuous assaults by ersatz Christians against the teachings and example of Christ.

I'm with the guy who appreciates any cheerful greeting of any faith. As a Christian, I sincerely appreciate someone of a different faith telling me they'll pray for me. I don't believe there is another god to pray to, but there is no better expression of love. I say, let's all pray for each other. That way, someone might make it. Who knows? It might be you.

Folks just don't know how to debate anymore. Everybody keeps talking past each other. The ears have grown dull of hearing, but the mouths chatter relentlessly. Vapid brains, endless refrains.

If I can't celebrate your holiday and have fun doing so- I'll make sure you can't celebrate it!

See, I knew JJ was on crack. DUDE, get a LIFE!!! You comment on these forums trying to convince everyone, especially Christians, of how stupid they are and how smart you are, and if theyt don't become like you, they are complete morons. Your behavior is not convincing ANYONE here to become like you, or "eclation" (whatever the heck that is). I think that is a nice way of saying "I'm a psychopath and I'm proud!!!!!!!!"

As for this issue on Christmas....I absolutely agree with Godfrey on this. Christmas will ALWAYS be Christmas, regardless to peoples feelings. I have said, am saying, and will always say "Merry Christmas." Period. Legally, this holiday is Christmas, and always will be, no matter how much you try to X-out Christ. Now, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, then you don't have to. Wish me a Happy Hanuka, I honestly do not mind. If every Atheist in in the world wants to hold a meeting and make up their own holiday, or name, for Decmeber 25th, and call it Athiestmas, so they simply don't have to say the word Christ, then fine. Its good to have diversity, and this holiday season should be that of joy and happiness....relaxation and relief from life, and JJ. But to whine and cry and accuse Christians of being religious bigots for wishing you a Merry Christmas is childish and selfish. I have no problem if someone wishes me a "Happy Holiday." My response will be "Thank you and Merry Christmas."

Roy, Happy Birthday

Yep, and Happy Birthday to your Dog, Melvin. Oh, and Happy Birthday to your wife, Jeffrey.
And while we're at it, Happy Birthday to Josev (hope he finds his essay).

How 'bout the Queen? Not the Queen? Ok, That's right - special celebration not on her birthday -

kinda like JESUS.

Poor Jesus, no one celebrates his real birthday (except the Mormons....well, kinda).

Oh, and I had a thought for you, earlier, J:

You say, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I observe, watching radical Christian behavior, lately...

There's no religion in compulsion.

Season's greeting to you, too, Roy.

Jesus, Happy Birthday.

The rest of you, get a life!

Enough, JJ, people are trying to talk here.

And, hi, J! :)

" Jihadist:

"Is there a book out called, "The Secularist Who Hated Christmas Greetings"?

I'm sure some right-wing presses are working on just such childrens' books, like other hate-filled tracts they claim 'oppression' over when they aren't mandatory reading in public schools.

"Perhaps there may be a few non-Christians who are really irate when greeted with "Merry Christmas", but no one actually died when they were greeted so,"

No, but a Jew was attacked on a New York subway just lately for returning the well-wishing with his own 'Happy Hannukah.'

Funny thing was, it was a Muslim who came to defend him against his attackers.

Imagine that. :)

"Sharing of festivities is infectious."

That's how they got the wreaths and holly and trees from the Pagans in the first place. :)

CCNL:

Are you actually a chat bot?

You function at the level of a shell script.

Godfrey, Bourbon, and skip the egg nog.

Oh, and be careful there's a fat man with reindeer on the loose.

It is apparent The Jihadist has been "christianized" as she continues to note the needed corrections to that great religion. If she could only spend as much time correcting her own warped religion.

But maybe she has completed the Five Step Program to "Deflaw" Islam and the koran?? Hmmm, now that would make for a very Merry Holiday!!!!!!! Maybe even a special Holiday? Hmmm, what would we call it??? The Jihadist Goes To Jesus Day??? And just think such a conversion could be made into a best seller, maybe even a movie? Titles???

"What kind of craziness actually makes people argue about whether to say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas?" "

Exactly. Before Bill O'Reilly and other right wing zipperheads concocted this faux outrage, even devout Christians said "Happy Holidays" simply because there are more than one of them within one week: Christmas and New Years.

It's really as simple as that.

Please take control of these blog threads - this
schizophrenic poster has been heading toward a meltdown for months -

Merry (decompensated) Christmas!

I'm a stone atheist, but I love Christmas, and I wish "Merry Christmas" to all and sundry. I once had a Jewish fellow in New York get a pained look and pointedly say "Happy Holidays," but I didn't let that bother me.

If someone told me "Happy Hannakuh" or "Happenin' Kwanzaa" (or whatever Kwanzaaists say), I'd probably say, "Thanks, same to you." But if I were feeling expansive, I might slap him on the back and holler, "Thank you! And a Merry Christmas to you! Rum or bourbon in your eggnog?"

I withdraw now from all these blogs, until JJ takes his meds and goes back to his padded cell. You win, JJ, your idiocy has made us all vomit.

Season's Greetings!!!

Ditto the Ingersoll recommendation. He eloquently communicates the inspirational nature of atheism.

I just finished Dawkins' The Ancestors' Tale, in which humans travel backward in time from the present day to the dawn of life, meeting up with apes, gorillas, orangutans, etc, at the points in time where the species split. A great read!

Is there a book out called, "The Secularist Who Hated Christmas Greetings"?

Perhaps there may be a few non-Christians who are really irate when greeted with "Merry Christmas", but no one actually died when they were greeted so, or when they receive Christmas cards. Nor do people of other faiths really minded so and to attend Christmas parties. Sharing of festivities is infectious.

Where is Arminius? Where is Daniel? Where is the Moderate to defend Christmas as a season of cheer and goodwill and peace on earth for all mankind?

Right then, Christmas is good because:

- It gives an excuse for one to shag a secretary under the influence of whatever on the boss' desk, and the morning after, to blame it on the jollity of the office Christmas party the evening before.

- It boost the economy in the last quarter with all that Christmas expenditures for food and drinks and deconrations and gifts and hiring of Santa Claus that benefit non-Christians too - China making toys, departmental stores and shops selling everything from alcohol to coloured lights owned by non-Christians making profits and offering temporary employment opportunities for the jobless.

- It is an opportunity for the Jesus Seminarians to ponder whether they should vote on whether snow actually fell when Jesus was born apart from ruminating on the actual date Jesus was born.

- It is a time when atheists can contemplate on whether Jesus actually existed to merit all these cheerfully expensive and excessive annual birthday bash after factoring in the fact the Jesus was not a ceasar, king or establishment figure to warrant scribes recording his deeds during his own lifetime and just after he died on buildings, temples and tombs.

- It is a time for atheists and the Jesus Seminarians to wonder why the tomb of Jesus was never found after factoring in the fact that the tombs of Kublai Khan, Lord Buddha and Mozart is not known nor found too too even if they existed.

As Ms. Jacoby proposed a few books as gifts in this festive season, and many atheists advised me to read Voltaire for one reason or another, I would like to return the favour and suggest that they also read, if they have not, and with promotional blurbs to confuse and to bait them to find the books to read for themselves:

"Tractatus Logico-Philosphicus" by Ludwig Wittgenstein

Also a deliciously mystical, poetical tract on language as a tool and a discourse to describe reality within and between us - not sufficiently he thinks, so "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent". Hope I remember that quote right.

"The Logic of Scientific Discovery" by Karl Popper

For the scientific minded types who love theories, including the theory of relativity, to consider the possibility that if God is a theory, only when God can be disproved can it be considered scientific. Atoms was theorised by Democritus even before it was proven to exist only in the last century.

And oh again, this thread is like a table, say:

- a dinner party hosted by Ms. Jacoby with guests from all over who are expected to be at least civil when they disagree, and so, food fights not preferable in this festive season.

- a cocktail reception hosted by Ms. Jacoby with guests who are expected to down cocktails and not to hurl Molotov cocktails at one another too much in this festive season too.

Happy holidays and Happy New Year to all.

Best regards

"J"

Joet writes "as I noted on another thread, this is more about Christians being offended that the holiday is no longer officially and exclusively theirs than it is about secularists being offended about much of anything"

The truly ironic thing is that Christmas wasn't a celebrated holiday in the United States after the revolution (it was seen as too English) until it was re-popularized in the early 1800's by Washington Irving and Charles Dickens. Its revival had little to do with religion. I often wonder when I hear devout Christians decry the corruption of their sacred tradition what tradition it is exactly they're talking about. Their view of its importance in American life is mostly based on a fantasy history that never was.

Seeker: "I also find a super-sized statue of a man crucified on a cross to be perverse, too."

Me too, but I've only seen those in churches.

I hope they're not putting them in public squares

Using the twin towers in religous display might be perverse.

I also find a super-sized statue of a man crucified on a cross to be perverse, too.

I thought you said you were leaving, JJ.

If you're going to spam like that, please be about it with all haste.

Happy holidays. :)

And... is someone spoofing Norrie? He's not sounding like himself to me in a few places:

This, for instance: "Should we return the favor and, like the Knights Templar in their initiation rites, spit on the Cross? If so, let's do it in the public square. "

I'm pretty sure Norrie would know that the 'spitting on the Cross' thing is unlikely to be anything more than the propaganda used to justify the Church's pogrom and asset-seizing of the Templars, who'd gotten kind of rich inventing a modern form of banking, and the whole 'let's spit on the cross,' though maybe rhetorical, doesn't sound much like him, either.

Though, Pagan symbols put out for interfaith holiday displays do just seem to always get vandalized because some Christians seem to choose to promote and believe the idea that other faiths should be treated so in the very public squares they want to use to promote their own religious dominance.

These love to claim to be being 'attacked,' but they're the ones who seem to be doing the attacking.

Bruce,

Your argument is absurd. What you are talking about is a POLITICAL statement. Using the twin towers in a public square to further some illogical left-wing agenda is pathetic and perverse. It's sad, really.

Of course some of the ministers didn't object. Why would they? The CT Valley Atheists just threw a meatball for a first pitch in the debate. I'm sure they're lining up ten deep to be the first one to offer a response.

I am always puzzled as to why anyone would be offended at being wished "Happy Holidays" as opposed to "Merry Christmas." In this as in so many situations, I wish people would learn to judge each other on intent: I wish you happy holidays because, whatever holiday you celebrate or even if you celebrate no religious holidays but just get the day off from work, i wish you well. I liked Windreader's response, but would go one step further in response to "Don't you mean Merry Christmas?" by saying something like "Actually, I celebrate the winter solstice, but I don't like to assume that everyone else does, so I just wish generic happy holidays."

Happy celebration of Beheading that is plagiarized from the Jewish Legend.December 20-23
Cavemen,celebrate the Beheading!
The believers of 2=1,celebrate the 4000 years old jewish legend saying *No,he was not isaac,but he was ishmael*.

Yes,the followers of the violence cult,celebrate the bloodshed festival.
It fits...,it fits...,it fits.

I don't really mind being wished a "Merry Christmas." I usually take the "thanks, you too" approach like Windreader, or wish them "Happy Holidays." I don't want to assume, either.

So, go ahead and wish me a "Merry Christmas." Just make sure to act like a decent human being/Christian the rest of the year, too.

I have, once, been chastized for wishing someone "Happy Holidays". "Don't you mean 'Merry Christmas?'" was spit out at me. I had so many choices in how to respond (political, educational. in-your-face, apologetic, dismissive) but I chose education. "I don't celebrate Christmas and do not want to assume anyone's spiritual orientation." That went over well.

What I object to most is the cumpulsary Christianity that is assumed in this culture. Clearly many people feel that any other celebration is misguided at best, un-American at worst. I imagine that not celebrating anything is even more suspect. I have had people try to argue that I should at least celebrate the (seemingly secular?) cultural Christmas, if not the religious one. Right. Oh, I am not that big a fan of government space or money being dedicated to the installation of religious displays either.

Sometimes, when I have time to explain, I may wish people a "Blessed Yule". Mostly I wish everyone a "Happy New Year!". When wished a Merry Christmas I usually say "Thanks, you too" and keep the "whatever" inside.

as I noted on another thread, this is more about Christians being offended that the holiday is no longer officially and exclusively theirs than it is about secularists being offended about much of anything. So O'Reilly invents the bogus threat of secularists trying to drive religion out of public view to sooth the feelings of the wounded fundamentalists. nonsense. I've got more lights up than any of my neighbors, just cause I was raised catholic and take pride in my lighting design skills. I really don't care who uses how much of the public parks for a couple weeks in cold weather for what, and am glad the city councils get to mess with the PC. As long as I can keep 5 ton granite commandments out of the courthouse lobby, the world is safe for secularists and O'Reilly can find someone else to blame for what he thinks ails America. it ain't me.

...as well as Christian religions.

Bruce, thanks for sharing that news item. It would have been great to see that display alongside displays from non-Christian religions.

Recently, for the first time, The Connecticut Valley Atheists erected a winter solstice display on the town green of Vernon. The display was a poster of the twin towers with a label:"Imagine no religion."

While several clergymen welcomed the display since it provoked discussion, many citizens were outraged,insulted, and wanted the display removed. The mayor promises to review the ordinance that invites all "denominations" to use the town green. The town maintainance crew placed a Christmas tree in front of the sign although the green is rather spacious. (Fox news interviewed the mayor; probably O'Reilly commented.)

In Oh little town of Vernon, Christians still clinge to a belief that the winter is theirs, as granted by their majority God.

Right on, Susan! Personally, I count myself lucky if I get a "thank you" from a cashier this time of year, let alone a religious greeting. I'm sick of Christians playing the victim because they can't beat everyone over the head with their Bibles.

Oh, and CCNL... give it a rest, will ya? "Peace on earth, good will toward men," right? That means Muslims, too.

'Britain's equality chief says "It's time to stop being daft about Christmas. It's fine to celebrate and it's fine for Christ to be the star of the show" in all public celebrations."'

No First Amendment in Britain - more's the pity.

'Ho Ho Ho: We Spit On Heathen "Happy Holiday" Greetings'

Should we return the favor and, like the Knights Templar in their initiation rites, spit on the Cross?

If so, let's do it in the public square.

Ms. Jacoby, are you suggesting that some people find "Happy Holidays" offensive because it doesn't treat their own religion as society's default religion? If so, I would agree with you. I'm inclined to suggest that such people simply need to acknowledge that no religion should enjoy a privileged status in any society and simply move on. Would you agree?

The Jihadist simply cannot admit that warmongering Islam should be added to her list of "world woes".

Let the following ring out loud and clear on thes clear winter nights:

"Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!!

Many if not most contemporary NT exegetes have concluded that the following events did not occur but are embellishments made by the NT scribes to "raise" Jesus to god status:

After Jesus was born, magi guided by a star or some other astral phenomenon sought and visited him.

Jesus was born during a universal Roman census.

Bottom line: the celebration of Christmas has no historic foundation!!!!

Merry Holidays to All!!!!

Also:

Please note that Professors Crossan and Borg (and other NT exegetes) have concluded that passages such as Matthew 2: 1-4 have no historic foundation but were also added to "raise" Jesus to the status of a man-god which was standard fare in the time of the Greek and Romans.

From: http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/007_Of_Davids_Lineage

"Lüdemann (Jesus, 280f) finds the genealogies in both Matthew and Luke to be theological creations with no historical basis. In similar vein he finds no historical value in the dispute over the davidic lineage of the Messiah (Mark 12:35-37 and parallels), finding it instead to be the product of "a learned scribal" effort to demonstrate that Jesus is "more than son of David, namely son of God." (Jesus, 87)"

And where did OT, NT, and Koranic scribes get their embellishing ideas? From the Hittites, Babylonians, Buddhists, Greeks, Macedonians and the Romans!!!!

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

Tonio--

Of course we shouldn't refrain from wishing people a happy holiday because we don't know their religion. Or whether they have any religion. Come on! That really is religious correctness run amuck. Or maybe it's just a product of the bad manners that characterize our entire society. A friend of mine recently said "Happy birthday" to a co-worker, and her colleague replied, "There's nothing happy about it." The proper reply to "Happy Birthday" or "Happy Holidays" is "Thank You" or "Happy holidays to you too."

For America, the larger issue is that our society is much more religiously diverse than even 50 years ago. I see this as a good thing. For centuries, Americans assumed that Christianity was "default" religion and should be so. In reality, there should be no such thing as a "default" religion in any society.

I regard "Happy Holidays" to be a well-intentioned but inadequate attempt at acknowledging that other religions have holidays this time of year, as opposed to an attempt to avoid offending non-Christians. There is certainly nothing sinister or anti-Christian about the phrase, contrary to Bill O'Reilly's hateful ramblings. But I do agree that the phrase has the unintentional effect of diluting all religions into a bland gruel.

Does anyone have another solution to address the principle of religious diversity? Should we refrain from giving holiday well-wishes to acquaintances when we don't know their religion?

Ms. Susan Jacoby,

A deflator and dampener of festivities? :)

Yes, there's the Pope mobile and now the mitzvah mobile.

Yes, expressions of faith is mobile and mobile and intrusive in the public square.

Yes, the celebrations and festivities of the dominant ethnic, cultural or religious group overwhelm others in the public square with over the top commercialisation and in-your-face related activities and decorations.

Yes, it's the "It's a Beautiful Life" and "A Christmas Carol" on every TV station season again.

The only thing about Christmas that is a bit irritating for me is, regardless of what climes one lives in, suddenly, faux snow appeared everywhere - in TV shows, in stores etc. Must be that Bing Crosby song, "White Christmas" fuelling some to force cottons to be snow to fulfill a particular dream for the Christmas season.

But you got to love traditional and religious celebrations of any culture and faith. Commenmorating and remembering events from the mist and muck of "once upon a time, long ago" are great reasons and excuses for having a colourful, joyful, feasting and a convivial time with family, friends and colleagues regardless of what one's personal belief is.

Let us forget about global warming, war, poverty, diseases, ethnic and religious discords for a while here in this thread - your "table" in this festive season, with "guests" and "visitors" from all over and of every ilk.

Happy holidays to you too.

Thank you and best regards

"J"