Jewish Identity Is What Each Jew Makes Of It

Susan Jacoby is terrifying. We do not read her or the Washington Post because we know very well what David Rockefeller said to the editors of the Washington Post and other major newspapers. He thanked them for not reporting on their NWO plans. Jacoby is completely insane. We read Jack Bernstein, Benjamin Freedman, Harold Wallace Rosenthal for the truth.
We know very well that 9/11 was primarily a Jewish, Mossad, and neo-con false flag operation. We will not tolerate Jacoby's brutal assault on the minds of Americans. This will not stand. She is very psychotic. The only reason she is allowed to speak is that Jews own all the media in the U.S. Everyone knows this. The proof is self-evident. Jacoby is incapable of saying one word of truth. The vaccines were tainted. This has been admitted by everyone. The preservative used did, in fact, skyrocket the number of cases of autism. The preservative is no longer used. Jacoby is a lying psychopath. I bet she denies the existence of chemtrails. I am so angry. I am going to stop this Jewish stranglehold on America. I bet Jacoby wants to find out who I am so that she can have me murdered. The Campus Watch, Megaphone, ADL, and thousands of Jewish organizations are responsible for the dumbing down of America. Do not ever take a course from a Jew. Documentary: The Israeli Lobby: The nfluence of AIPAC on U.S.

Arminius:

I'm half a Scot;
That's my lot.
The other half Brit
(Truth compels me to admit).
Surely I did not plan
To be as I am
A Scot, Aye! and half a man.
But far worse yet
(I moan, I fret),
A Scot with no a clan.

From the East Coast South
To the Highlands North and West,
Teeth into the North Atlantic tempests --
Aberdeenshire!
Home of my one mother's forefathers.

Athena,
I agree, this question seems to have been left up here far too long.

Come on moderators...next question please.

terra

An update on our War on Terror and Aggression:

or how are we spending USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror)

First, A Partial Body Count:

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,381-87,792 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Bored now. Time for a new question.

TJ by telling us when and where it is appropriate for us to talk of our faith...

Yes, Thomas Jefferson intentionally "deflawed" his bible by removing all the superstition and historical revisionism from it. First, he found the flaws. Then, he fixed the foundations. What a guy! You can buy one on Amazon.com!

Jihadist, I don't know if you're reading this thread, but the U.S.'s response to 9/11 was, in a word, evil. I had foolishly hoped at the time that 9/11 would catalyze a new era of internationalism and mended relations. I thought the message was clear, that the world is now small enough to realize that chickens always come home to roost, that the rule of law must be uniform and global, and that the U.S. must be the beacon of freedom and enlightenment for the world that it has always imagined itself to be, and which it sometimes has been.

Instead, the Bush administration bullied its way into war with Iraq (which I still don't understand), isolated its allies, repudiated diplomacy, and otherwise cultivated an unprecedented level of global hatred against the U.S.

Jihadist the notion that anything very much different is going on in the Middle East now than has always gone on in that blood soaked abattoir shows an inability or unwillingness to either read or comprehend history.

My oh my!!!!!!

Can't leave bigots alone and they road rage in the threads:)

Let's have some last fun before the next topic comes along.

An itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny Jihadist surge of silliness. The last one and out of this thread. Unlike some, I do know when to get out.

....and Concerned the Christian Now Liberated in all his disguises, forms and manifestations too here! Which Concerned the Christian Now Liberated are we seeing here now?

And some quotes not quoted from the famous and infamous:

"Islam is perfect. Convert to Islam."

"Atheism is a burger without all the trimmings"

"Crossanized Christianity are attempts to correct the so-called flaws in Christianity by majority vote agreement of Jesus Seminarians"

"Catholics of Reality are dastardly fools who can't and won't bring up their gripes to the church hierachy"

"Paganism and pagans predates all monotheistic religions and will survive along with or outlive them all"

Ahhh.....the Hyperventilating Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

- don't want to bring up his problems to his church and Pope eh?

- never raised his Catholic church issues in On Faith with the vim and the verve he expended on Pagans, Buddhism, Islam etc.

- Come to think of it. He never spoke much on Hinduism, the mother of all beliefs too.

Ahh... the Hyperventilating Concerned the Christion Now Liberated makes it all right even for the "reasonable" and "rational" Chris Everett to forgive him of his bigotry and name calling and labelling just because Chris Everett thinks all religions are evil and Islam the most evil of them all.

Weep not for Jihadist!!! The Patriot missiles lobbed by the Concerned One to save her, to bring salvation to her, to bring Enlightenment to her, missed her. Again. Sign........

So.......... Burn the Qur'an. Edit the Qur'an. Ban the Qur'an." !!!!!!!

So, the Great "Deflawing" of Christianity started about 200 years ago but there are three gods, four books, and many epistles to correct?

My, my. Why is that? Has Enlightenment not reach every nook and crevices of North America and Europe?

Are not many Christians happy and contented with their beliefs as is?

Are not all Americans literate? Are not all Americans wired to ICT and TVs and radios?

Need help from Liberty University and Bob Jones University?

Did Chris Everett not tell me once that even Thomas Jefferson has his own version of the Bible?

How goes the revisions and editions of the Bibles?

How many versions of the Bible?

Can't change yourself and blame the Bibles and Qur'ans eh?

Can't deal with believers and want to ban and edit their Holy Books, eh?

And....................

We Muslims outside the United States breathlessly awaits how Concerned the Christian Now Liberated and his ilks march on with the Crossanization of Christianity in America and develops more and more Catholics of Reality.

We Muslims outside the United States breathlessly awaits to see how Concerned the Christian Now Liberated liberates his own educated and intelligent and well-informed fellow citizens on the Crossanization of Americans.

What to do eh, pussycat?
Too many beliefs.
Too little time.
Too many contented and fulfilled believers.

--------------------------------------------------

GaryD

No personal offence to you. But some of my posts are parodies of those by Concerned the Christian Now Liberated just to point out how ridiculous they can be.

--------------------------------------------------

Chris Everett,

You are a very nice fellow. But I do doubt you know what is really going on and why with Concerned the Christian Now Liberated.

Whatever you feel about 9/11, I will not excuse the bombings and killings of innocent civilians as collateral damage, destroying their homes and lives in Afghanistan and Iraq and yet, fail to get Osama.

I wonder why that is.

I wonder why it is so very difficult to get Osama dead or alive in Iraq with all the "surge" there.

Well, I've had enough of this thread now.

Thanks and regards
"J"

Amen.

Chris Everett,

it is a pleasure to read a contribution of sense, reason, understanding and tolerance at the same time.

Just imagine the impact of the general insight that the "emperor has no clothes on", and that all the huge amount of heckling, proselytizing, arguing, fighting, killing, name calling is based on nothing but mass superstition, in different historical shades of fantasy.

Nature itself is so abundant in incredible miracles that I don't understand the funny "philosophy" (aka religion) of so many people to demand the simple and stupid "miracle" that the magnificent nature, of which so much is still left to discover and understand, breaks its own laws to satisfy simple minds. What a concept of "miracle", simply ridiculous, conceited and overbearing.

Only a few years ago the very computer with which these people spread their nonsense would have been enough of a "miracle" to prove the existence of god, any god, you choose him, we sell him.

Fortunately, there are many more than 5% of Americans who declare themselves non-believers or at least agnostics. And it is the more educated section of the population, even if, alas, not the majority of voters. The Bushs and the Huckabees may be one of the reasons for evolution to decide that mankind was one of those many extinct branches, like for instance the dinosaurs and thousands of other species.

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
Country Nov-07 Oct-07 YTD 2007 Nov-06 Jan - Nov 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CANADA 1,919 1,889 1,872 2,093 1,800
SAUDI ARABIA 1,530 1,370 1,432 1,460 1,418
MEXICO 1,484 1,322 1,426 1,459 1,608
VENEZUELA 1,227 1,221 1,141 1,088 1,152
NIGERIA 1,215 1,184 1,067 917 1,040
IRAQ 508 490 495 573 566
ANGOLA 408 342 502 505 504
COLOMBIA 197 164 139 42 148
ALGERIA 184 213 452 253 357
ECUADOR 154 222 198 246 275
KUWAIT 154 150 178 253 180

But there is not really any such word as "deflaw" is there? If so, then what does it mean? "to perfect?"

How are you going to perfect a religion? People just believe what they're gonna believe, and do what they're gonna do. How is anyone going to impose "perfection" on all of this?

And what has "obfuscating" got to do with anything? It is kind of dumb word, when used in the context of this thread, and it just makes the guy using it look sillier and sillier. I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, just giving my observations; I mean, this is a serious subject, but could the commentary here get any sillier?

Garyd writes: "What we are clamoring about is the fact that the minority militant atheists who make up maybe 5% of the people in the country if that are trying to make us second class citizens in our own country."

And how, exactly, are they attempting to make you second class citizens?

Terra,

Rock on. And consider, the politician you are more afraid of? He's a terrorist too, acting in the same name and for the same reasons.

Religion.

I for one appreciate CCNL's consistent focus on these posts. As Daniel Dennett famously said, "Every time you read a word you make another copy of it in your brain." And as Daniel Dennett even MORE famously went on to say, "Every time you read a word you make another copy of it in your brain."

CCNL is reasonable in saying that until the Koran is deflawed noone is safe. Personally, I would argue that elimination of Islam as anything other than a CULTURAL tradition is necessary for it to be deflawed, but of course this is true of ALL religions, simply due to the fact that RELIGION IS THE FLAW.

CCNL's focus on Islam instead of some other religion is understandable, too. I have lived in both Washington and New York - I saw the Pentagon burning and I saw the smoldering rubble of the World Trade Center, and I have family members who are alive now simply because of rescheduled meetings. This is not to say that the U.S. has not behaved atrociously in the world (and continues to do so under our imbecile president and his corporate cronies), but SUPERSTITION is among the big issues of our time, and if the world as a whole cannot embrace liberal interpretations of its particular brands of superstition, at least to the point of recognizing our common humanity first, then violence will continue. It is this liberalization that CCNL refers to as deflawing, and it is Islam that, among the dominant religions, is most in need of it.

I am an enemy of all religion. The poetry, beauty and insight on the human condition that can be found in religion exists simply because until recently, religion was the context in which human understanding existed. But this context is a polluted one of absurd fictions and internal contradictions. Although its origins are understandable, its perpetuation is inexcusable. Even religious apologists and obscurantists like some of those above implicitly admit this to some degree every time they distance themselves from the fundamentalists - they interpret the holy texts to mean something humanistic as opposed to meaning what they say. That's a step that has a component in the right direction. But why not just say, "Wow, these guys did pretty well considering their time and place - some of it is actually useful! Lot's of it has to go, though. Like the parts about slaughtering outsiders, threating your children with eternal torture, obsessing on your neighbors' private lives,..." That's deflawing.

But who claims to know what god's wishes are, if there is a god? I'm sure it's not a gay marriage ban.

Don't you think it might behoove you to see what changes he wishes to make first?

The first Law of Christianity is to love your God with all your heart with all your soul and all your mind and the second to love your neighbor as yourself. I doubt he plans to add either to the constitution.

And Keep in mind I am not a big fan of Huckabee but his Christianity does not inform my opinion at all.

The most you will see is likely a gay marriage ban that probably permits civil unions which the overwhelming majority of Christians have no real problems with.

Daniel...Lion...
I agree.

I learned at a early age that life is forever giving lessons...life is not a promise, but a possibility.

Going from one room to another I lost sight in one eye;a detached retna. After surgery some sight came back, but then I have had many other surgeries for other eye problems (same eye, and the other), and need more...and can no longer drive or simply pick up a book and read.

My life changed from one second to the next.

Many years ago I went to pick up my step mother, who was also my best friend, from work...being told she was dead; an anerism.

I have seen the deaths of too many people...there is no guarentee for any of us...no expiration date stamped on our butts...each day is a gift and the best way we can leave a mark while we are here is to show commpassion, strength and love.

terrorism is not what fills me with fear, it never has. I am more afraid of those who will hate me for how I see my gods, or that I believe in gay rights, or am pro choice. I have more fear over a politician that wants to change the constitution to fit his view of god.

terra

After 9/11, I was afraid of terrorism, like a lot of people, possibly. I was afraid to fly, which made my life difficult, since I have to fly alot on my job.

Then on Oct 12, 2003, a Sunday, I tripped on the step in front of my house. Even though it seemed like a gentle fall, I was seriously injured; my quadricep tendon was torn in two, and I had surgery the next day. (That is the same day that the Staten Island Ferry crashed into the docks, and killed a bunch of people in NY; I remember the date, Oct 13, 2003, because of my injury the day before; google it, if you want).

Afterwards, I had a stiff brace on my left leg for 3 months, making walking, even with crutches very difficult, and I could not drive. I could not go anywhere, even to work for 3 months; all I could do was sit in a chair and watch tv. I prayed and prayed to be be healed, and I would never complain again, and I would go out into the world and do what ever I needed to do, without fear, if I could only be well enough to walk outside of my house.

When I was better, I realized that the unlikely threat of terrorism was less threatening than the normal undertows of life, which swirl around us all the time, in everything that we do, in our daily lives.

And maybe some people seek assurance and safety by projecting their very real fears onto specific people or groups of people, whom they can work against. But this kind of thinking provides a false assurance; we are always under threat of destruction, every day, from many directions, too many examples, even to think of. What must we do? There is nothing we can do, but have courage, and hope for the best, and work for the best.

There is a phrase that I think should be tattooed on the foreheads of every person who lives upon the earth, even on CCNL's forehead: "fragile, handle with care."

Garyd,
As far as Christians not wanting a theocracy?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that's what we need to do, to amend the Constitution so it's in God standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.

So what is that if not a Christian wanting to create a theocracy?

terra

Jihadist you are the one that doesn't get it. We Christians aren't interested in a theocracy. It looks to much like Iran. What we are clamoring about is the fact that the minority militant atheists who make up maybe 5% of the people in the country if that are trying to make us second class citizens in our own country. Much like Hamas has done with Fatah and it's followers but with much less reason.

Terra Gazelle

Thanks for the interesting post.

“The Rapture...Fundamentalists believe that the return of the Jews to Israel, and the restoration of Jewish control of the Temple Mount, is a precondition for the Rapture, the Apocalypse, and the second coming of Jesus Christ...

And who is in power now? Bush and his Born Again neo Cons...I wonder how far that ignorant brainless wonder would go to help his Apocalypse happen. Did God tell him to?”

Too little is being said about the subject of this thread (Jewish Identity) and how it affects the critical issue of our time that threatens to start WW III (according to our ignorant brainless wonder). Even my favorite panelist refuses to address this issue. What do you think about it J? I know; you are a supporter of the Road Map. What do you think CT? I know; you are a fan of the ignorant brainless wonder. How about the rest of you bloggers? I know; it’s more fun to fight about religion, but come on...be serious for a change.

The Road Map to Nowhere...

The good, reasonable, moderates of the region are all pulling for the Quartet’s Road Map to Peace to succeed, and so am I. But I know that it will not because it offers the Palestinians less than half a loaf; actually it’s more like 22% of a loaf. It accepts the pre-1967 war, post-1948 war boundaries, which give Israel 78% of Palestine to the Palestinians’ 22%.

The Balfour Declaration was the mistake of the 20th century. The deal brokered by the wealthy Zionist lobbyist Baron Rothschild with British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour and blessed by Winston Churchill was the root of all evil. Yes, the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy. But if the League of Nations and USA wanted to protect the two hundred thousand Jewish refugees of WW II, then we should have allowed them to immigrate to our lands. We had no right to force them on the Palestinians.

But all that is water over the dam. The question is what to do now. The Zionists think that time is on their side. If they grab and hold more and more territory and build a wall around it, the world will eventually accept it as theirs. They intend to eventually hold all of pre-1947 Palestine, and push the Palestinians into Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. After all, the Arabs were granted the vast majority of the British Palestine Mandate in the form of Transjordan. They should be willing to make a home for the Palestinian refugees.

I think that nothing could be further from the truth. With Israel importing 99% of its oil (mostly from Russia) and the USA importing most of its oil from Islam, the oil supply diminishing, the price of oil at $100 per barrel and rising, and the US national debt at $10 Trillion and rising; time is on the side of the Palestinians and the Russia-China-North Korea-Iran-Iraq-Jordan-GCC-Syria-Lebanon-Egypt potential “axis of evil”. This is no time to be starting WW III with Islam.

"mono-minded, mono-lingual, mono-cultural, mono-religious perhaps"

Well. Are we monotheists? Is Truth monolithic or are there many truths?

Jihadist should swallow the pablum she generously shares "on faith". Her angst is apparent on every post and it tells a story and makes a sad statement. She should address her "greater struggle". If she is true to her names (Jihadist, Jewlia, Jihadistein) -she should shed her "islamic blinders" and take an honest look at herself.

Who is she? What does she believe? And greater still- what does she seek?

Oops, my apologies for the triple commentary. The WPO servers were sucking up the good words quite fast this evening :))

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You can debate the meaning of the various passages of the koran until your "blue in the face". The bottom lines are the actions carried out by Muslims based on the instructions in these passages. The violent actions on a 24/7 basis are conclusive proof of what Islam teaches and what these passages really say.

To wit:

The assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

These actions plus the flaws in the founder of Islam, one hallucinating, warmongering, womanizing, illiterate, long-dead Arab and his plagiarizing scribes makes Islam a sham and shallow religion.

Garyd:

Quran tells what we are here to do.
Hadith(actions and saying of Prophet)explains us how to do it. As said in the Quran follow your Prophets(PBUH) teachings like how to pray, clean, eat, live, protect and respect each other rights etc.

Xymerian Monk:

Appreciated!

Jihadist:

AOA, I'm not wasting time, I'm earning sawab!

Athena:

Don't try to jumble up dates, time, events. AND DON'T SKIP THROUGH MY POST.

Garyd:

Yes! at all levels of preserved records, it is TRUE " The Holy Qur'an".
I understand your point, there are many false hadiths, but Muslims all over world are very concious and careful about it and try to follow only authentic ones. There is a fool proof and very prudent way that exist.

Ahh, the Obfuscating Jihadist and those that weep for her!!!

After 224 comments, it still comes down to that famous quote,

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe anywhere!!!!!!!

And one must chuckle at The Obfuscating One's comment: " I take them (Muslims) more seriously in what they say and do and in countering them with the full weight of my formal and spiritual knowledge on Islam. "

She meant to say: " I suffer from being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam. I know that the warmongering Mohammed and his scribes plagiarized the works of the ancients but I fear for my life if I dared try to correct these significant errors".

Fear not Oh Obfuscating One, the Great "Deflawing" of Islam is in progress so one of these days (or years) you will be able to shout, "Free at Last, Free at Last."

The Great "Deflawing" of Christianity started about 200 years ago but there are three gods, four books, and many epistles to correct.

With Islam, there is only one book and with the "debunking" of the Gabriel/Mo connection, things should go a lot faster.

Ahh, the Obfuscating Jihadist and those that weep for her!!!

After 224 comments, it still comes down to that famous quote,

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe anywhere!!!!!!!

And one must chuckle at The Obfuscating One's comment: " I take them (Muslims) more seriously in what they say and do and in countering them with the full weight of my formal and spiritual knowledge on Islam. "

She meant to say: " I suffer from being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam. I know that the warmongering Mohammed and his scribes plagiarized the works of the ancients but I fear for my life if I dared try to correct these significant errors".

Fear not Oh Obfuscating One, the Great "Deflawing" of Islam is in progress so one of these days (or years) you will be able to shout, "Free at Last, Free at Last."

The Great "Deflawing" of Christianity started about 200 years ago but there are three gods, four books, and many epistles to correct.

With Islam, there is only one book and with the "debunking" of the Gabriel/Mo connection, things should go a lot faster.

Ahh, the Obfuscating Jihadist and those that weep for her!!!

After 224 comments, it still comes down to that famous quote,

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe anywhere!!!!!!!

And one must chuckle at The Obfuscating One's comment: " I take them (Muslims) more seriously in what they say and do and in countering them with the full weight of my formal and spiritual knowledge on Islam. "

She meant to say: " I suffer from being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam. I know that the warmongering Mohammed and his scribes plagiarized the works of the ancients but I fear for my life if I dared try to correct these significant errors".

Fear not Oh Obfuscating One, the Great "Deflawing" of Islam is in progress so one of these days (or years) you will be able to shout, "Free at Last, Free at Last."

The Great "Deflawing" of Christianity started about 200 years ago but there are three gods, four books, and many epistles to correct.

With Islam there is only one book and with the "debunking" of the Gabriel/Mo connection, things should go a lot faster.

Hey does anyone know what happened with Jocob Jovez or whatever his name was? I miss his ramblings it kind of gave me a reason to decipher his long posts, I used to decipher those while at work...kind of like a Jumbo Word Search!!

Peace Be Unto You All and May God Shine His Mercy Upon Us.

-MONK-

ps where is all the old school posters that i had grown to love like E-Favorite and Daniel and some of the others...hope they didn't suddenly develop a life and forget about us!!

Arminius,

Dude that humbled attitude is exactly what the wise allpy to their words. That is why of all Mondern Religious Leaders I love the Dali Llama! He never tries to force his veiw he never tries to call for war, but his followerers are quite awesome at defending themselves!! I mean they held off the superior Chinese Army when they attacked Tibet! You my friend are a wise voice and a growing tree on this posts.

Jihadist,

I have been reading older posts, and I prretty much agree with almost everything you say. If I didn't think you were such an amazing person I wouldn't even bother speaking or taking your side! I know you alone could hold off the increasingly violent attitude from Concerned, but like you said it is fun to have a little bit of indulgence at his expense!!

Peace Be Unto You All and May God Shine His Mercy Upon Us.

-MONK-

Monk, my web friend,
I am NOT wise. I am dumber than a stump and older than dirt. I merely (try to) accept all of humanity as God's children. Admittedly, putting Confused the 'Christian' now Lobotomized stretches my abilities. It is pointless to reply to him - he, like any other fundamentalist of whatever stripe, sees all in terms of black and white. He will not engage in true discussion. Might as well converse with a brick wall - at least it does not spew crap back at you.

With much respect,

Arminius

Xymerian Monk:)

Hello.

If you are Muslim or Jew or Pagans or atheists or Mormons, insults are quite often leveled at you. I notice that Christians of other denominations hurl a lot of insults at Catholics and the Catholic church. Apart from those of other faiths and no faiths.

I am only into having fun with the rabid ones like my favourite pussycat - Concerned the Christian Now Liberated when I am a wee bored. I just love seeing him or her or the Concerned collective going berserk. Small times cheap thrills for me really.

Concerned has his Muslim counterparts. I take them more seriously in what they say and do and in countering them with the full weight of my formal and spiritual knowledge on Islam. It is pointless, no, for me to discuss on Christianity with Christians. I'm an outsider after all. Or for me to go into the finer points of Islam with non-Muslims who have absolutely no say and sway in how it develop and move forward.

Rest assured I don't and never measure all Americans, Christians or atheists by him, her or the Concerned collective.

And rest assured Concerned the Christian Now Liberated will never let up. He must be a retired person with all the time on his hand to be in On Faith 24/7:)

Now I really got to get off.

Thanks and regards
"J"

Concerned,

Get over it bro!! No one cares anymore. While some want to scream it's the Muslims fault, some like Jihadist and Moddy and even a few Christians realize....What happens in the Middle East Stays In the Middle East!! Oh unless Bush want's to give $90 Billion to Saudi Arabis to oppose Iran!!! Seriously who freakin cares about the war between Shi'ite and Sunni...I for one just want OUR Country to fix OUR problems! It is not Americas place to run around the world and force other cultures to Assimilate to the good 'ol American Way.

No amount of moanin about your views is going to change what other people do. Jihadist surprisingly says the best peice of asvice that anyone could give you:

"So now we know you can't stand anything on Islam or anyone Muslim. Need serious help from professionals off On Faith or like-minded irrationals in On Faith threads? "

The only, and I MEAN ONLY person you can change is yourself...not me not Moody, not Jihadist, not Arminus, not Susan...just YOUSELF. If you are completley happy with where you are in life then rejoice man!! Sit back with a cup of tea and let the rest of us have civil conversations (i.e A Conversation about Faith!!! The whole point of these boards) but alas my adice falls upon deaf ears, because I know what you will say:

Monk, Monk, Monk it is like I have always said blah, blah, blah HATE ISLAM, blah, blah, blah. I will never stop anyone...anyone who holds true and sticks by what they believe in, and neither should you...THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY!!!

Hey Jihadist how ya doin, how come you never reply to me? If you want like Ms. Jacoby, I will insult you...You smell like cabbage! (joking) but seriously I do wish more people were like you and Arminius, you both are very wise (yes Arminius you are wise man you never hate and always have something of value to add!!) and I think if more people would read your posts that we could have some balance in this thread, but alas it is up to Concerned to Fuel the Fire of hate and to spark anger from people.

Peace Be Unto You All and May God Shine His Mercy Upon Us.

-MONK-

ps Concerned I am sorry that I get so angry at you, but you are carrying a negative stereotype too far man. You can not just lump everything Muslim and anything that says Islam on it into this "It is out to destroy OUR way of Life" mentality...America will detroy itself with or with out the Muslims!!

Unbelievable!!!! Concerned the Christian Now Liberated and analogous ilk still do not get it.

One more time for their benefit: It is all about them finding fault and flaws in the founders and foundations of Christianity themselves as Crossanized Christians and Jesus Seminarians. They know them. They can't get why mainstream Christians won't agree with them.

They thereby directly support the results, i.e. evangelical Christians on social and political terror as espoused by rabid evangelical warmongerers raising mental terror and torture of Armageddon in the Middle East, and possible theocracy in America, and the pseudo-democracy in Israel and the "Wannabee" rulers of an American-Isreali realm in the Middle East.

Bring on the rabid evangelicals! And other Crossanized Christians and Catholics of Reality!

J-Lol

Unbelievable!!!! The Obfuscating Jihadist and analogous ilk still do not get it. One more time for their benefit: It is all about the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam. They know them. They ignore them. They thereby directly support the results, i.e. Islamic terror as supported by the warmongering, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran and the pseudo Sunni theocracy of Saudi Arabia and its "Wannabee" rulers of an Islamic world.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Which one is it now here? Anyway.....

Pussycat! Why are you lambasting others as collateral damage? Did I not tell you this is a wee battle between just us?

Can't help dragging everyone into the ring and shooting everyone? Missing me again and again? I'm still standing. Darn!

Now, now, read up more books rather than just those by Karen Armstrong on Islam and Muslims.

Read up more books by Christians on Christianity rather than those by the Jesus Seminarians only.
Reinhold Niehbuhr is good for starters if you have not already.

Now, now, let me see.

You can't stand the ayatollahs and mullahs. You can't stand Al Qeada. You can't stand Eboo Patel the Muslim activist. You can't stand Sulayman Nyang the Muslim academic. You can't stand Pamela Taylor the Muslim progressive. You can't stand Salman Ahmad the Muslim Sufi. You can't stand Sherman Jackson the Muslim maintream fellow.

So now we know you can't stand anything on Islam or anyone Muslim. Need serious help from professionals off On Faith or like-minded irrationals in On Faith threads?

Be good pussycat. To your family members at least. Remember, labellings is no substitute for thought. Do put better posts on global politics, economics and security issues at least. They are all, er, not quite right and not worth for anyone to waste time reading or correcting. Remember, you are fighting with other sources of reliable information and Noam Choamsky too in the wider world.

Don't take it personally if I never read nor bother with your posts on "substantives" anymore. It's free choice, no?

Okay, pussycat, this thread is running out of its time and course.

"J-Lol" the Jihadistein, the Jewlia, the Jihadistein. Brrrrrrr.......

Moody:)

Why waste so much time and energy with On Faith threads' faux "experts" and "scholars" of Islam and Muslims?

You are obviously not American, like me. Never mind their pointing out our mistakes in English grammar and spellings. Chances are, unlike most of them, we speak and write several languages.

Don't worry about Concerned the Christian Now Liberated too much. He is mono-minded, mono-lingual, mono-cultural, mono-religious perhaps. Accept him as such. "Foreigness" can be frightening for some.

I have yet to see him persuade other mainstream Christians to what he call Crossanized Christianity. Which incidentally, is closer to Judaism and Islam on God and Jesus. The last posts I read of his addressed to Christians months ago, he's giving Jesus Seminarian take on salvation, ascention, baptism etc.

Perhaps you can suggest to him, the self-designated Catholic of Reality, to take these up with the Pope who is said will be visiting the US this year. After all, it is only the Pope and the Vatican who can implement dogmatic and theological changes in the Catholic church. He is infallible some said.

But, of course, it is an internal matter of church for him to deal with. We Muslims should keep out of their beliefs even if we know all the troubles within and among Christian denominations. We have our own internal debates too. No amount of the Concerned collective projecting, deflecting and redirecting to Islam and Muslims is going to have an impact in the wider Muslim world. It is beyond them and limited to On Faith threads.

But, have fun anyway, with Concerned the Christian Now Liberated and his ilk. Perhaps one day he'll share with you, the music and lyrics of "Grace" in Gregorian chant.

If I recall correctly, some Nazis do make a criteria for its flock (if we can call them that) to sing Christian songs in Gregorian chants as proof of their pure Germaness, loyalty to the Nazis and the Fatherland. Any wonder why the current Pope Benedict 16 was a former Nazi during his flawed and idealistic days as a youth? He is obviously a changed fellow now. Outwardly.

Only God knows what Pope Benedict 16 really thinks, is going on in his mind and the inner sanctums of his offices for world peace or world salvation of everyone not Catholic. Which may not lead to world peace if mishandled and "salvation" insisted upon everyone else instead of acceptance of and cooperation with adherents of other Christian denominations and faiths.

Who ever said some Americans purpotedly promoting freedom and democracy are not fascistic and ignorant? Look above and beyond the din of the bigots' rants and vents to find sane and sober voices among Americans. We can learn a lot from them.

Bye for this thread.

Peace be with you.

"J"

Xymerian Monk:

Did you really call me wise?!? That is something that I do not deserve. In reply, in the words of a song by the rock group Kansas: "And if I'm called a wise man, it surely means that I don't know..."

I do commend you on your pertinent, patient, and even sometimes profound posts. I look forward to more.

Thanks,

Arminius

Moody,

Many of the scientific "discoveries" in the Quran are reiterations of the Pagan Greek and Persian scientists that came before them. Unlike the Christians, the Moslems found a use for these ancient teachings and incorporated them into their religion. The Christians just burned anything that was in opposition to the Biblical ideas that the Earth was the center of the universe.

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).

The "cosmic egg" that "hatched" to form the Universe is from Sanskrit cosmology, among others.

2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)

The Greek scientist Eratosthenes accurated measured the circumference of the Earth at least 2 centuries before Rome.

3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).

Aristarchus of Samos proposed the heliocentric model of the Solar System in the 3rd Century BC.

8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.

While al-Kwarizmi was a genius, and made tables for the orbits of the planets, I don't think that his work was actually included in the Koran. Not to discount al-Kwarizmi - and the Islamic world's - contributions to astronomy.

I don't have time to debunk the rest. Suffice it to say that all of these "revelations" in the Koran were discoveries made by PAGAN scientists.

please check 4 truth

the truth iz true all the time or it simply is naught the truth.....manythings are mistakenly gicven the wrong name 4 themselves.. truth... must... be.. true... on all... occasions..., in any way manifested, under all conditions and every test in the present.. past truths and even future truths if correctly identifyed can be false in the present... we all must live in the present corperally.. test....you can build great things on small fundimental peieces of truth....pure truth may be relatively rare thus making its value great 4 those who know it and more importantly utilize it in reel and real life... a person... club, orginazation, a business, and institution, a government, areligion, a nation or a people canot and should not expect others to abide by rules they themselves violate... and the correct answer is not the suspension of all rules but to find ones that can actually be truelly and fairly followed by all... that may be the pathway to gains in civilazation and society through out the world it is true the Jewwish people will have 2 answer to God for thier actions and inactions and recieve the rewards or exiles imposed by God himself not 2 be determined by thier own opinions of how they are performing in the real world

If that were true Moody you wouldn't nned the Hadiths would You?

Monk, Monk, Monk,

Once again and again and again, the entire issue is summarized in that famous quote:

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!"

Concerned after rereading your post i thank you, it is rather early and i needed a good laugh before going to bed. Your people skills are so lacking that even I a simple immigrant and merely 21 years of age can see through the anger at those that oppose your simple views. Like I have stated before you have no power what so ever to change anything, the only power you posses is the innate sense that you and only those that subscribe to the Only Axis of Evil: Intolerance seem to know...and that is how to repel any type of human regardless of belief, or culture, or religion, or sex, or race, etc..etc..You my friend are so very lonely that you have forgotten how to even approach someone rationally. Do you have kids...or grandchildren? If so what do you do when they come home for the holidays and don't believe as you do??

Moody,

Sorry for being a tad short with you but like I said no Man is Perfect save one, and even Jesus didn't write the NT others did, lol! So please don't think I am attacking you or Islam, if you live in America than i will fight whomever and whatever tries to deny you your rights to believe what you do. I know my grandpa would hate if I said I was talking to someone named Jihadist and also other Muslims defending the Quaran, but that is why his generation is not fixing the rift between us.

I never meant to offend you (if I did) I merley wanted to point out that not all feel like every Muslim is a terrorist! but if you behead anyone ( joking) all bets are off!!

Peace Be Unto You Moody

-MONK-

First Moody, I do not live in a Muslim country or I would gladly pay a tax if it could truly provide protection. I was merely making a point that in case Americans have forgotten that the Federal Government had no right to create or maintain the IRS after WW2. Concerned no matter what you post about Religious Leaders it still does not make up for the fact that I simply don't care about your personal beliefs and or 'knowledge' of ancient text.

Unlike Moody I realize that people use all sorts of information to try and justify the deeds they do. Moody, I personally don't have any problem with the Quaran, nor do I care how it accurately predicted all these sciences, the simple fact is it was another set of books just like the OT writings that tried to preserve the people's culture. Christ said nothing about slaying people, he said nothing about death to anyone except to those that He will judge. I am no where near wise enough to judge some one else, so I will leave that up to Him.

But i know we both agree that the Religious Leaders of Islam that teach hate and Intolerance are the type that even if they didn't misuse Islam they would find something else. It is the same with most Fundamentalist Christians that build Million Dollar houses and have private jets!

The simple fact is WE THE PEOPLE have to decide what we are either willing to do and what we can do to live the best life and serve as many people in need as we can! The people like Concerned will always stand on the street corners and denounce anything they are not comfortable with, but it is up to the rest of us to make sure that we turn away from the hate and show love.

We can all honestly agree that there are people that take every word of the Quaran as literal and there are those that do the same to the Bible, but each of us must take the good with the bad and try to apply the parts that help us the most and help others also. The more we try and believe every word of something as unfailing the greater the chance we run of risking closing our hearts and minds to the will of God.

Like I have stated many many times all religious text have flaws it is how we are made, with flaws and anything we touch shall have flaws, The original manuscripts that were given to the Jews and then Christians, and the Islam, probably differ from the manuscripts used today.

Sorry Moody, but honestly you must think of all the people (good and bad) that have come along and used the teachings of Religious Leaders for personal gain! I know hopefully that you don't run around saying convert, or pay the tax, or die. Just as I don't run around screaming, "Your Going to HELL" to everyone who doesn't share my beliefs!!

Peace Be Unto You All and May God Shine His Mercy Upon Us

-MONK-

PS Concerned how can you honestly believe that I haven't read your posts? You post them every question and every chance you get and the whole for My eyes only don't act like a child...and please don't insult my eyes again!

CORRECTION:

CCNL:

I'm still awaiting any single reply???
Angel Gabriel (A.S) revealed Quran to Muhammed(p.b.u.h) send by Allah.

And below few examples out of whole is the PROOF of its PERFECTION, AN EVIDENCE OF THE TRUE REVELATIONS...PROTECTED..UNCHANGED..VERIFIABLE BY ALL LOGICAL SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

Mohammed(PBUH) had no reason to lie,
other wise there would have been more than 50000 scientific, mathematical, logical, mythical mistakes, obscene pornography INCEST in Quran AS WELL like in your almost 200 KEEP ON CHANGING versions of Bible.

BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE SCIENTIFIC MISTAKE OR CONTRADICTION.

BUT THERE ARE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT YET SCIENTIFICALLY DISCOVERED OR PROVED. SO IT IS NOT CORRECT EVALUATING SOME THING THAT SCIENCE DOES NOT APPROVE OR DISAPROVE ?

AND IF MOHAMMED (PBUH) SAYS ALL THAT SCIENCE WHICH WAS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE UNTIL RECENT TIMES
IS REVEALED TO HIM BY GABREIL (A.S.) WHERE HE EVEN DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ OR WRITE,

THEN

WEEE BELIEVE !!!! He had no reason to lie.

We humans know that there are countless entities which are yet to discover and beyond our present available knowledge OR OBSERVALBE BY OUR SIX SENSES.

Dave, Deb, BPC, CCNL, Kafir and all non believers you keep your commentary on all the time criticizing Islam BUT never answer a single direct question raised by any Muslim OR reply DIRECTLY on there comments to your posts.

IF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY HONEST, NOT WITH MUSLIMS BUT ATLEAST WITH YOUR OWN SELVES,

THEN DARE TO ANSWER BELOW:

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (THIS BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT IT’S FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female attributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animal’s behavior and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

I don't know why non muslims complain about paying tax to the Muslim rulers in past for there well being.
Jazia was the tax for non muslims,like
Zakat is compulsory charity for muslims.

Some how non muslims pretend it AS AN OPRESSION ON THEM, only asking them for tax for there protection.

Compare to butchering them, what they have done and STILL DOING through out the centuries.

Monk, Monk, Monk, (for Monk's eyes only since he has never seen the synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major contemporary religions and the Five F Rule):

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Apply, then, the Five F Rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace in the world!!!!!

Well Concerned,

Why is the Quaran so flawed, give me some examples that would debunk Islam? Can You? Why is the burden of deflawing ones religious beliefs fall upon those that believe? She doesn't care whether the Holy Books call for the death of those that won't convert or pay the tax...so does the Federal Government!! If you don't pay Federal Taxes and are an American Citizen, you go to prison. That is a law!! So everyone says that you either become more American or go home...but why the heck can America go into any country in the world and demand they follow what we consider humane treatment of their people and must hold Democratic Elections and must blah blah...etc etc! We try and dictate what the world does?

You Concerned are the reason the world looks at America as a Country of Vipers with hypocritical citizens! You scream for the Quaran to be changed but by what authority and by what means can you even make that claim? You have no political clout you have no economic power, no power at all to make such bold demands; however, it is no surprise that you (an American) feel a sense of entitlement when it comes to your views. Most of my American friends, those born and raised in America mind you, feel this sense of entitlement that you obviously feel and it makes me laugh. Yes America does a lot of good, and yes so do 'Christians' by large; but you sir are the reason they fight us in the streets and are willing to die to protect their beliefs...what gives America the right to demand anything?? Our Country can't even afford to pay its Elders the benefits they deserve because we are so busy trying to change the Muslims!!

When you sir finally come to a place in your life where your heart isn't so full of hate then sir you may offer advice, but until then sir go back to your place of worship and pray for help. You need to let go man, you will never change anything your generation's bigotry and intolerance is over; and the Age of Reason and Youth has come!!

-MONK-

Dr. S. Rothstein,
You might see the Right as your friend, but you need to understand why that might not be so.

The Rapture...Fundamentalists believe that the return of the Jews to Israel, and the restoration of Jewish control of the Temple Mount, is a precondition for the Rapture, the Apocalypse, and the second coming of Jesus Christ.

For those unfamiliar with Christian eschatology, the 'Rapture' is the bodily transportation of Christians to heaven. Evangelical Christians believe that in the near future all devout, born-again Christians will be whisked off to heaven, leaving behind piles of clothes and jewellery and a lot of bemused unbelievers and sinners who will endure the 'Tribulation', a period marked by war, massive death and destruction, and the rise of the Anti-Christ. Finally, Christ will return, vanquishing the Anti-Christ and ushering in the thousand-year reign of Christ on Earth.

And what has to happen for this to happen? The jews either convert to Christianity or parish with the rest of us sinning heathens.(personally I was disappointed on new years 2000...but the Born Agains were still here.)There has to be a war and Jews have to die.

These millennialist beliefs about the end of the world are widespread in the United States. A Gallup poll taken in March 2002 revealed that "46 per cent of Americans describe themselves as 'born-again' or evangelical." In a 1999 Newsweek poll 71 per cent of evangelicals said they believed the world would end in a battle between Jesus and the Anti-Christ at 'Armageddon'.

Many fundamentalists are excited by the deepening conflict in the Middle East. As Dwight Gibson, director of the secretariat of the World Evangelical Alliance, notes, the violence "has people thinking, 'Is Christ coming back?'"

For them, Arab-Israeli conflict is a necessary step towards the second coming of Christ. Unfortunately for Israel, there is an intermediate step, which is called 'Apocalypse' and will take place just outside Jerusalem at 'Armageddon' (a corrupted translation of the Israeli town Megiddo). A biblical reference to 'rivers of fire' is seen as prophecy of the nuclear annihilation of Israel.

Israeli leaders, who are currently benefiting from unstinting American support, may want to question whether their most zealous allies are really acting in the best interests of Israel's long-term future.

And who is in power now? Bush and his Born Again neo Cons...I wonder how far that ignorant brainless wonder would go to help his Apocalypse happen? Did God tell him to?

terra

Monk, Monk, Monk,

The Obfuscating Jihadist and her "obfuing" friends indeed on occasion denounce koranic terrorists. What they do not do is admit that their warmongering religion is severly flawed said flaws that are the impetus for said terror. Again it all comes down to that famous quote:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe !!!!!

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Your recognized sources are??????????

E Favorite

"Also, if people here are interested in our little conversation -- I'd like their response to that question, or specifically this question: If respected academic studies confirmed evidence against some of the basic tenets of your religion and your pastor also supported the findings, would you still believe in the religious teaching?"

I have been asked if knowledge came to light that changed my faith what would I do? I said, "incorporate it into my religion..as my religion is one of discovery. I do not know how the Gods work...I discover that as I journey through my life".

We all are on the path of discovery, no one has even an idea of what there is to learn.

Myth is human truth wrapped in cultural imaginings.

The science of quantum machanics comes closer to the inner workings of how I see the world.

terra

Oh and I have posted everything up to this message myself, they are my veiws and my beliefs and I stand beside them and I am willing to debate any wrong perceptions of any poster that I have spoken of.

-MONK-

I am Xymerian Monk and I appove these messages!

I know the question is going to change soon, and I just wanted some feed back from you guys and girls on my posts anything you would change or think that I mis-stated? I do hold your veiws, all of you, pretty highly because most if not all of you are older and have experinced more in life than I have and Ms. Jacoby I would be honored if you would read some of my posts and offer some feed back, but I have noticed you usualy don't respond unless attacked, so I think you smell like cabbage....there you have been attacked so please respond.

-MONK-

CCNL:

I'm not scholar but a science graduate and can handle atleast four languages. And what ever I post here is from authentic on record recognized sources.
May be it is limited education for you Einstein.

Atleast I do not cut and paste from other sources.

OR VEIN LIKE A GIRL!!!!!!!!!

Concerned,

It is not upon Jihadists shoulders to change the Quaran, to to teach the masses her personla beliefs, the burden falls upon those that use the Quaran in a way that it was not designed for. Yes there are verses that were probably added to rally the people of that time against extinction at the hands of their 'enemies'. Our Founding Fathers did THE SAME THING. All cultures since the dawn of Humanity have DONE THE SAME THING!

I have never heard Jihadist say death to the Infidels or that she supports suicide bombing or the 9/11 attacks. I have heard her say quite the opposite and call for tolerance from people attacking her and her family (The collective Moderate Islamic community). But I HAVE heard you repeatedly attack anyone and everyone that does not share your beliefs.

It is not your fault that you are Intolerent, you just have no people skills! It is okay, because after the elections maybe America will become the America it should be!!

-MONK-

ps. we all know you would never apologize, because we all know you are too close minded and too set in your beliefs. You are probably in your 50's!!

(Hmmm, I see someone is impersonating me. "You all" should have known that since I don't rant but simply point out the obvious to include the current thinking of religious exegetes.)

Anyway,

Dear Obfuscating Jihadist,

There, feel better now.

And when can we expect that report on the flaws in the founder and foundations of Islam??

Might want to check out some added koranic flaws over on Eboo's koranic Tribal Discussion. Moody is trying to answer them and probably needs your assistance. Maybe The Monk, "Thoughtful" Arminius and Rick of the Mosque can give you some added thoughts about your report.

I know that was not you Concerned, someone is just trying to start another fight, I however wish I was more like Arminus, because he truly is a wise man that we could all learn from. I would also like to be more like Jihadist for she knows what persecution at the hands of misguided people does to the Human Soul. I praise Susan for her lack of just taking everything in this world On Faith (that was a joke!!) but Ms. Jacoby you must realize from your own experinces that this World and Universe are too much for us to deal with on our own, and that we have to take a little bit of life with a pinch of spirituality!!

Concerned, I do have a certian level of admiration towards you, you say sometimes what others of your beliefs (and yes I know there are actually others) feel is right. However, the things that you say about the Prophet Muhammed and Jesus of Nazareth, and other religious Leaders, are not any more fact than the beliefs of the Mormons, or the Catholics or the Baptists, or any other people or Denomonation think is fact.

NO ONE KNOWS 100% that is what makes the search and the spirtual journey WORTH THE TRIP!! You have taken a path that has lead you to where you are an I and others have taken very diffrent paths to other places. And yes we Know that The Path To The Father is Narrow, but it is also OUR CHOICE TO MAKE WHAT PATH WE THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD TAKE!!!

Neither You or any other is going to Change the path I have embarked upon, or the path that the others have embarked upon, so in the end you can still scream till your face is RED BUT WE WILL NOT BE DENIED THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE!!!!

Monk, no one belives these stories that you tell, they are all lies and I wouldn't be suprised if you were a 21 year old College Dropout!

Your spelling is always off, and you seem to think we care about your personal life...we do not. I did not post that apology nor would I apologize for what I believe and yes your family (if the stories are true) are Cowards for fleeing your country, THAT THE U.N. MADE for your parents.

As far as your wisdom, you are a very wise for a twenty year old (if you are) but you try to play on people's emotions and that makes you a dangerous Islam loving Christian apologetic for all the bad things America does. Give it a rest!

Arminus,

You are also like Monk and are trying to apologixe away for the WAR THEY STARTED! Let us not forget who flew planes into OUR TOWERS!
You are sick all of you why not vote for Barack Osama and hand the Islamic Powers OUR COUNTRY!!

I just want to know hold old some of you are, because I am trying to write a book on Generational Gaps, I see that most people over 30 hold their opionions in High Regard, while the same is true mostly for Teenagers. The 20 somethings seem to be swayed more easily and the over 40's just want to retire and still live life!

I was wondering because at my house hold my grandparents hold the Nation of Israel in The Most High Esteem, and yet so does my mother and if my my father wasn't dead he would probably too.
However me and my brother being among the younger generations (me 21 and him 20) veiw Israel in High Esteem, but know they are making descions that will affect the Middle East for Generations to come.

My cousins, are taught in school that the Palestinian People are basicaly animals and have no rights, they are taught hate and violence even in their homes, and when I speak to them they often tell me what a cowerdice family I belong to because we moved to escape the ensuing violence.

I told them one day that I believed in Chrsit of the NT and his teachings and they laughed saying why not follow Islam also. I know that my Aunts and Uncles are teaching then these things and that is why I say the things I do about older generations holding the younger generations in the same rut!!

-MONK-

P.S. I do see those kids and teenagers that follow no laws or rules of their house and notice that if the parents weren't so beat down with work and bills and a gerneral stress level that the average human being should never have to endure. I am a staunch supporter of spanking and physical labor to deal with problomatic children. I once had to pick up trash along a highway in the TEXAS HEAT for 4 miles!! I never swore at my mother again!!

Well I am truly sorry that I too have fallen victim to the "Post 9/11" stereotypes that our government has projected against Muslims...Yes there are evil Muslims, Evil Evangelicals, Evil People in gerneral all over the world. I think we should honestly follow the words of wisdom spoken, "Ye shall know them by their friuts", (paraphrased) It is the most accurate way to help us understand one another. If someone is screaming "Peace, Peace" by they lie in wait by the road to trap you, then why would you believe them?

I understand completley why Muslims feel cornered, OUR MEDIA rarley shows the moderate or helpful veiws of anything, let alone the Muslims screaming for suicide bombing to stop. The Jews don't want to look weak by helping the Palestinians, but to me it is weak to build walls and launch tear gas...those Palestinians consist of Egyptians, Syrians, Lebonese, Jordians, and other Arab people; there own countries wouldn't help them after Israel became a state, for POLITICAL REASONS!!!

Politics is the biggest reason for wars!! Policies are the biggest reason for discrimination and violence. No food, or water, or electricty and no Jobs to stimulate an economy are all reasons why the people have nothing to live for!!!

While in America WE THE PEOPLE spend (literaly every $ we make on useless things) our lives away, getting more and more in debt for commercialism and consumerism, we lose the very thing that makes us love one another...a common bond and comrodery that rivals that of anything we fill our "empty" lives with.

We complain if our heat or electricity gets shut off, we complain when we can't make a house payment, but WE THE PEOPLE don't blow ourselves up, and why?? Because we have work on Monday!!!!

Peace Be Unto You All and May God Shine His Mercy On Us All

-MONK-

ps Concerned it takes a big man to admit he is wrong, I welcome your apology and hope you will strive to be less violent in your posts!!

Monk,
Right on! as we said in America some decades ago. Well said. Your compassion to your Muslim friend was heartfelt. I believe that all prayers, regardless of source, go to the one and only God.

Confused the 'Christian' now Lobotomized:
No one believes your apology.

I am sorry Jihadist for the way I have acted. I get so worked up sometimes over what I believe that it is hard sometimes to see through the 'fog' of emotions that I feel and to remember that we are all on this Earth together regardless of why we are here.

Please accept my apology an remember that when I go off on a rant it is not you personaly that i am attacking but those convictions that I hold so tightly in my soul.

Cornered The Christian Now Liberated:

You see how many people strike up against your hate filled misguided veiws!! Regardless of religion, regardless of race, color or creed!!!

No one likes a freakin bully, I know in my heart that something bad has happened to you man, maybe something I couldn't possibly comprehend, but I do know that regardless of our pasts man we have to move forward. I know you hate Islam, and veiw all that Bush says as wise, like the Axis' of Evil...COME ON MAN, what makes those countries evil bro??? IS IT BECAUSE OUR GOVERNMENT SAYS SO?????

Stop and think for your self, man you spew these emotions that you have a.) because you feel a loss in your life because of something that 1 Muslim did; or b.) because you subscribe to the only Axis of Evil INTOLERENCE.

-MONK-

Jihadist!!

Nice, good to see that you are infact one of the most amazing posters to read! What you said earlier about "people" who hate the religion but love the followers is moving. Religious people regardless of the the religion seem to have many folds of humanity living within their ranks. Just the other day I found out that my friend James lost his daughter...she is gone and I asked to pray for him. We do not share the same religion, he is of a Muslim background and I am of a Christian one (though I hate the term). But he nodded and said, yes thank you. Now I think back to how many millions of so called Christians would say 'no' because of a stupid superiority attiutude makes me sick.

Yes the Quaran has some old out dated parts, so does the OT, and in fact the NT also, they were written to explain the Human Condition of the times they were written in and things said during those times must and can not be followed literaly. But when I laid down to sleep and I prayed with all of my heart that God, regardless of religion, please give James and his family strength during this difficult time, I realized that his daughter was dead and I didn't once stop to question whether he needed someone to talk to.

The next day I saw him and he looked better and he thanked me for praying for him and said Merry Christmas, I cried right there at work because I realized that not 2 days prior to all this I had made a remark that was rude about Muslim believers. I am no better than CCNL and his filthy type of hatred spewing Christians.

I am sorry Jihadist that WE THE AMERICAN people ae so f'ing ignorant.

-MONK-

Jihadist,

Julia? Well, you will always be Jihadist to me, fits you better. I like it.

Your recent posts: on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being perfect, you score 42 at least. Confused the 'Christian' Now Lobotomized, and his bewildered associates, are left wandering in circles, babbling.

Well done!

Arminius

Hello Anonymous:)

I hope you are not a fellow Muslim poster who likes to use all lower case in typing. Most probably, a gutless wonder who is a regular poster, but would not want me to know who he or she is, for me to play with.

You quoted:

"Tell the rest of us what J stands for."

sheesh. its all making sense now. it stands for jewlia..."

Ohhh.....Jewlia? Never thought of that one.

Ah, so, you do know my real first given name, Julia and playing it as Jewlia. Muslims have no problems with Muslims with Jewish ancestors. Deal with your blanket hatred of all Jews yourself. Take it up with the Anti-Jewish Defamation League if you must.

So, I am the sum of all the religious groups most hated by everyone - Catholics, Jews, Muslims. Deal with it Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists who don't like their brethren "polluted" or "infected" by the blood of the "enemy".

So, all Catholics are said to hate Jews and Muslims for not accepting Jesus as Son of God and salvation through Christ etc.

So, all Jews are said to hate and mistrusts Christians and Muslims because of persecutions and discriminations throughout history.

So, all Muslims are said to hate and mistrust Christians and Jews because of history of wars, Crusades, colonisation and Zionism.

But, ah, no one is making a fine distinction that not all Christians and Muslims hate all Jews.

Many are are against the policies of the state of Israel. Anti-Zionism and anti-Neocons is not anti-Jew.

So, some Christians hate Islam and Muslims.

So, some Muslims hate Christians or Christianity.

So, some people just hate some people because of their race and religion. Deal with it yourself. Go see a shrink to get over it if you must.

As if often repeated by the saner posters in On Faith, one cannot hate someone just because he or she is a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. That is not being rational.

It is more acceptable if one hates someone because not of what he or she believes in, but by what he or she actually do in life to himself or herself and to others.

So interesting to see how bigotry is barely below the surface.

Anyway, I would love to indulge you bigots a bit more, but hey, I have other things to do.

Okay, y'all can come out now. I am getting off here.

Especially you Concerned the Christian Now Liberated. Go ahead. Rally all the atheists, Pagans, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists on your side against me, Islam and Muslims. Even Muslims if you can:)

Or come up with new "fixed talking points" if you must.

"I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself
A small bird will drop frozen from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself"

- DH Lawrence.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself then, you wild things, you:)

J-Lol

Whew! Ouch! Looks like you are being made a laughing stock CT.

Okay Rick,

As I've already told Henry James in one of Otterson's thread, "J" is for Julia, my given first name. "Jihadist" is my handle here. Live with it. Deal with it. :)

-----------------------------------------------

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated :)

It is a lot of fun having fun with you when I feel like it.

Frankly, I don't read your "fixed repetitive posts" for months now, only those where you resort to namecalling of others and me to see how inventive and original you are. You've called me a terrorist several times before eh. I am terrorising you here? Pardon me. I had not meant to sent your to build fences and bunkers for your physical and mental safety.

Never addressed me directly anymore? From "Jihadist" to "The Jihadist" to "The Obfuscating Jihadist"? All in the third person and addressed to whom?

Always arraying others to join you in your attempt (to quote Maurie Beck) to "bag" me? Pussycat! I am beyond your grasp, beyond your reach.........and don't seek to mobilise others to come after me. I ask people to stay out when you go namecalling and labelling me.

Why in the world would you need others to back you up in the battle you pick with me from your posts on me? Finish it yourself and on be on your own pussycat.

And what are you anyway? How many of you?

The Crossanized Christian?

The Catholic of Reality?

The Jesus Seminarian Scholar groupie, promoter and advocate?

The "cheerleader" and "herder" of the anti-Islam and anti-Muslim goon squad of colourful languages and invectives sans imagination in the threads of the Muslim panelists?

Hmmm, The Cohncerned the Christian Now Liberated "o" wording again and again and again and still he or his "collective" does not address the flaws in his own "fixed" and repeated talking points gleaned and cut and pasted from everyone from the Jesus Seminarians to selected reports and news.

We won't waste time implementing a "Five Step Program for those who are not Muslim scholars or Muslims!

We won't waste time "Deflawing" the notions and visions of Islam and Muslims by Crossanized Christians and Catholics of Reality!.

We won't waste time with the Concerned Collective seeking to break the stranglehold of 2000 years of western beliefs, angst, guilt, hurt, complex!

We won't prevent if the Crossanized Christians and Catholics of Reality b able to shout, "Free at last, from bigotry of others based on their race, gender, region and and religion at last!

We won't prevent of Crossanized Christians and Catholics of Reality to be "Free at last from insecure superiority complex of others different from us and not to feel fear or threathened by them !!!!!"

We want to be "Free at last from 'Crossanized Christians' and 'Catholics of Reality' turning the world into who knows what!"

Go ahead. Keep on venting and viling and vilifying pussycat. It is very bad for your mental and physical health. But then again, perhaps good for you to get rid of the "poison" of bigotry and hatred here in On Faith threads. It's free.

Yeah well. I have had enough silly fun for now.

"J-Lol"

"Tell the rest of us what J stands for."

sheesh. its all making sense now. it stands for jewlia...

Aw come on J. Tell the rest of us what J stands for. I'm tired of searching through Otterson's old threads.

Hmmm, The Obfuscating Jihadist "obfuing" again and again and again and still she does not address the flaws in the founder and foundation of her religion. She knows the Five Step Program for "Deflawing" Islam, so maybe she will someday break the stranglehold of 1400 years of Islamic brainwashing and be able to shout, "Free at last, free at last!!!!!"

My, oh my! lol

This is so delicious! So delectable! So cofusing!

Some people don't take time off over the weekend off to go somewhere or to sing "Grace" in Gregorian chant as a family tradition?

Or to look up towards heaven and figure out the Singularity they believe in?

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated : "I don't hate The Jihadist. I vehemently dislike her flawed religion and her refusal to address the flaws in said religion."

(In a wounded tone to displet misunderstanding and possibly miscast as a bigot, and in admitting failure to persuade or convince by blaming the target for refusal to read his posts)

Christopher Hitchens :"I am an anti-theist. I hate religion. I hate the religious types."

(In gist on what he think, felt and said in a frank, earnest, flabbergasted, exasperated manner on believers who would not give up their beliefs; and in knowing on his deathbed when it comes, there will still be hundred of millions of theists)

Hardcore atheist : "I respect you, but not your beliefs."

(Said with all the good intentions of making believers see the Enlightenment vision and version of "truth" but really a less elegant and more confusing rephrasing of what Voltaire is said to have said - "I don't agree with you, but I will defend [to the death?] your right to say it.")

Relaxed atheist : "Love the believer. Hate the beliefs."

(In a way that is both confusingly accepting and dismissive and sweetly condescending)

......and now, let us take the above in other variations and permutations:

"I don't hate Buddhists, only Buddhism."

"I don't hate Christianity, only Christians."

"I respect Jews, but not their beliefs."

"Love the Muslim, but not his belief."

"Love the atheist, but not atheism."

"I don't hate atheists, only atheism."

"I am an anti-anti-theist. I hate all anti-theists and atheists no matter what."

"I respect you, but not your atheism."

.....and any which way one looks at it, it is so convulated and so generalised.

.....and any which way one look at it, it is possibly, the most weird way justifying with a shallow layering of, a tenous distinction of, a tired couching of words, to disguise, cover and rationalise hatred and bigotry.

Just saying outright that one hates all Muslims or all Jews regardless is simpler.

Or, perhaps to say:

"I respect Crossanized Christianity and Catholics of Reality. I don't hate you because you are a Crossanized Christian or Catholic of Reality, but because of what you, as a person, personally said and do that has nothing to do with Crossanized Christianity or Catholics. Of Reality or otherwise."

"J" is for Jihadist the Muslim
"J" is also Jihadistein for those who hated Jews.

"J" as I signed off, is also for my real given first name as I told Henry James in one of Otterson's threads.

Yeah well......what to do? I don't really inherit the stereotyped, legendary and mythical Jewish "angst", Catholic "guilt" and Muslim "hurt".

"Death to bigotry in all its forms and manifestations!"

Have a good week y'all.

Thanks and regards

J-Lol

SUSAN...The one God was not an jewish idea, such a popular notion for many which jews having then adopted. One God being easier to deal with than the many many Gods, of, fire, air, lust, beauty courage, the stars, the moon, the sky, the sea, beauty, love, strength, wisdom, of lust, desire, etc etc etc.In place of the many they put a God of there own creation, an God of there creation whom decided they be the chosen of all people's. Which simple to do when you are the one writing the story, this God becoming not a silent image of stone as the normal, this an God whom giving advice, a God with a voice, speaks there lingo. Which in truth simple one being then the writer. Of course when others seeing the benifits of the one God, the power having over others, an great oppertunity for explotation in making of wealth, then many started to jump on the bandwaggon. The son of God produced by christianity, thus build up the strength of their scriptures. Where once again God have a voice, this time sideing with the christians, speaking to them informing them it no longer the jewish people, but christians whom being as Gods chosen, in speaking unto them through his beloved son. With the death of the son of God, which christianity blamed on jewish people, the then christians claiming, they being supreme in representing God. Such be disputed by another jumping on an jewish one God bandwaggon. The remains of a power, of the old Roman Empire, the Catholic Church where there Icon being the Mother of son of God. The rest history where all After hundreds of years of ever forced religious brainwashing, all grew rich, as powerful leaving a trail worldwide of, mass murder, destruction, torture, acts of appalling untold injustice,... .. .

Freedom of Speech Challenged in Canada-

PLEASE READ AND WATCH YOUTUBE-

A controversial conservative commentator was unrepentant going into a Human Rights and Citizenship Commission hearing yesterday, using his Web site to republish the same cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that got him into trouble in the first place.

"Contriteness implies that you've done something wrong for which you need to apologize or atone," Ezra Levant said moments before his 90-minute meeting with the Alberta Human Rights and Citizenship Commission in Calgary.

"I have not done anything wrong."

Mr. Levant's dispute with some members of Alberta's Muslim community became even more personal, as the head of a Calgary Muslim group said he now fears for the safety of his family due to "lies" Mr. Levant has been spreading about him.

The commission is investigating Mr. Levant's decision two years ago, as publisher of the Western Standard, to print a series of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

The same cartoons had already ignited violent protests and death threats from Muslims around the world after the images appeared in a Danish newspaper.

Syed Soharwardy, head of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, filed a complaint after the Western Standard published the cartoons, which included a Muslim man with a bomb-shaped turban, and the commission is now investigating.

Mr. Levant, his lawyer and his wife attended a 90-minute meeting yesterday with a human rights officer.

Mr. Levant, who occasionally writes for the National Post, said he was asked about his rationale for publishing the cartoons.

"I don't need to be reasons-able. I have maximum rights of free speech," he said later.

"I have the right to publish this for the most offensive reason, for the most unreasonable reasons."

The commission's director said it would hear from both sides and decide whether the complaint should be dismissed, go to an arbitrator, or go to a full human rights complaint hearing.

"We don't talk about individual complaints until they get to the public stage," said Marie Riddle, the commission's director.

For Mr. Soharwardy, the issue has become intensely personal.

He fired off a letter to Calgary police yesterday, complaining about statements made by Mr. Levant on his blog that refer to the Muslim leader as a "radical, Saudi-trained imam who has publicly called for shariah law to be imposed in Canada."

"I have asked him what kind of training did I get in Saudi Arabia?" an angry Mr. Soharwardy said from Calgary.

He said Mr. Levant has also called him anti-Semitic, despite the fact Mr. Soharwardy's mosque celebrates Hannukah with the local Jewish community.

"These people have the intent to incite hate against Muslims," Mr. Soharwardy said.

"God forbid if somebody reads from his Web site -- [if ] any fanatic reads it -- and he attacks me, who's responsible?

"If any crime [is] committed against me or my family, I will hold Mr. Ezra Levant responsible."

Calgary police said they were actively investigating the complaint, as well as another complaint Mr. Soharwardy made in December.

That complaint centred on comments made on a blog connected to the Western Standard Web site.

The comments, from an unknown user, included "There is no such thing as innocent Muslims," and "They must all be killed. All of them."

"The file is still open and we are still actively pursuing it," Insp. Bob Couture said.

Mr. Levant called his appearance before the human rights commission "an interrogation.""To me, this is offensive," he said.

"A secular government bureaucracy has essentially been hijacked by a radical Muslim imam," he said. "It's being used to further his fatwa against these cartoons."

"We have a great tradition of free speech in Canada," he said.

"My freedom to publish a cartoon that some radical Muslim imam doesn't like, well that's the free West for ya."

There are 6 youtubes posted. Go to related videos to link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzVJTHIvqw8

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Hmmm, who should we believe? Moody with a somewhat limitied education or OT, NT and world history scholars??

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Hmmm, you speak of the American Indian war? Yes indeed, great tragedy with slaughters on both sides of the fort walls. No one really knows how many American Indians died or how many Europeans.

An excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wars

"In his book The Wild Frontier: Atrocities during the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee, amateur historian William M. Osborn sought to tally every recorded atrocity in the area that would eventually become the continental United States, from first contact (1511) to the closing of the frontier (1890), and determined that 9,156 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Native Americans, and 7,193 people died from those perpetrated by Europeans. Osborn defines an atrocity as the murder, torture, or mutilation of civilians, the wounded, and prisoners.[3]

What is not disputed is that the savagery from both sides of the war -- the Indians' own methods of brutal warfare and the Americans destructive campaigns-- was such as to be noted in every year in newspapers, historical archives, diplomatic reports and America’s own Declaration of Independence. ("...[He] has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.")

" Various statistics have been developed concerning the devastations of these wars on both the American and Indian nations. The most reliable figures are derived from collated records of strictly military engagements such as by Gregory Michno which reveal 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850-1890 alone.[1] Other figures are derived from extrapolations of rather cursory and unrelated government accounts such as that by Russell Thornton who calculated that some 45,000 Indians and 19,000 whites were killed. This later rough estimate includes women and children on both sides, since noncombatants were often killed in frontier massacres.[2]"

CCNL:

Do you intensionly lie or ignorant???

It was 150 million American Indians that was plainly butured/ genocide by the Caucasian Racist Christian Invadors.

Check the old American Incyclopedia 1970's additions for your records.

At present out of 280 million of USA population they hardly manage to grow less than 1%.
You can imagine what was left approxi. 400 years back of them.

YOU MONSTORS!!!!!

Compare: 150 Million 400 year back less than 5 million NOW.

And from zero to 280 million BEASTS!
STILL ACTIVE!!

Xymerian Monk,

I don't hate The Jihadist. I vehemently dislike her flawed religion and her refusal to address the flaws in said religion. Her commentaries are evidence of this refusal and I remind her of that every chance I get less she forget how dangerous her obfuscating ways are. Of course, she lives in the almost Islamic theocracy of Malaysia and is or should be in great fear of the Malaysian Islamic "truth" squads and their Iranian counterparts. Note how she never criticizes the Third Axis of Evil!!!!

Rick,

You asked "is there something wrong with belonging to a mosque?" Yes,indeed if you believe that the koran is without error and you follow the warmongering, anti-female directions of this very flawed book.

Also, I know I have posted two already, just wnat to point out why America makes it our personal mission to try and change the world to fit in to what we percieve as right? I have been on several mission trips where we brought food and supplies to several African villiages in Angolia and Kenya.
One trip paid for by a church that I had attended, and one with a humanitarian group, and the only diffrence was that the church i went with handed out Bibles and explained that through God things would get better; and the humanitarian group said "we will return in a month with more supplies". Which approach was better? does it matter?

I just want to say that as an immigrant I love American people and the laws that have allowed me to become a citizen! I am thankful for everyone and all the people I know that have helped my family! But I do not like the lack of involvement with the common people and the Government. Most of the people who can vote don't amd yet they are agitated that the government does all that it does? This is the Republic of America where the Federal Government can not come into the houses of its citizens and execute them in the night, but how much longer untill they do? Instead of blaming the Jews or the Muslims, or the Mormons, we should be blaming the people that we put into office and the people they take advice from.

The Government only cares about $$ and how much resources it can grab up, all governments care about that!! Now some say for the PEOPLE and some say FOR ISLAM, or for GOD, or for whatever reason they believe as the government (elected representation of their support in most countries) they are entitled to those rights.

But I now thankfully live in a country FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE, so why then do the people care so little about the things our government does in OUR name?

Of course Israel is going to do as much to the Palestinians as it can get away with, of course Iran is going to do as much as they can and get away with!!! WE all know this, but it is up to THOSE people to fix or detroy, NOT US!! My family moved out of Israel to get away from the constant hate, we moved to America to be FREE!!

Science and religion are at odds, but science and spirituality are not. I believe in Matter and atoms, protons, and neutrons, electrons and chemical as well as covealent bonds! I believe in these things with all of my heart even though I have only the words of scientists to go by. For I do not have the luxuray of veiwing these things through Electron-Microscopes, or even veiwing these things at all, other than the belief that all Life and energy are made of matter!!

I take just as much on faith from science as I do from my personal struggles within myself. I think religions try to explain WHY and science explains HOW both are actively pursuing their goals, the only question is (for me) is where do I fall into this? I don't believe in Evolution not because I am some uneducated peasent, but because there are to many loop holes and not enough facts for Macro-evolution. I do believe that life adapts, look at colds and bacteria, neither want to die and be destroyed so they learn from other cultures to strengthen themselves, something that humanity as a whole refuses to do.

If we spent more time trying to strenthen ourselves by our cultures and beleifs instead of destroying each other over our diversities then we as a HUMAN RACE would be so much more powerful.
I just want to thank science for inventing vaccines and antibiotics and also thank those in the medical field who want to distibute them, we are all links in the chain of Humanity!

Concerned,

Why do hate Muslims for? I have several Muslim friends that I now work with and each went out of there way to wish me and my family and friends a Merry Christmas. They were neither rude nor angry when I said Merry Christams, and we didn't even need an amendment to our Constitution to realize that it was a Christian beleif; and yet, both were smiling and eating some turkey!

I ask you this because I too am angry at extremism and the hate that some Imams and religious leaders over in the Middle East Teach; however I don't pick at every awesome post by Jihadist or blanket this forum with hate when I disagree with some of the posts by obvious war-mongers (you included).

I ask you does being a liberated Christian mean you forsake Love thy Enemy and Treat others as you would be treated? Does being concerned mean hating those that do not share your beleifs, because you are concerned at being seen as the minority? I think that those that read your posts can see the torment and affliction that is apperent in your hate, and we would all do well to not forget these things you spew, because we need not forget there are more pressing issues in the world.

I admire your passion, but I am not an admirer of the hate and self-importance that you believe you are entitled to; but everytime you speak I feel a little part of hope die inside of me for common peace in the world, because sadly millions, maybe even billions are as close-minded and empty as you are, AND THAT SCARES ME MORE THAN SOME TERRORIST!!!

P.S. Susan I usaully disagree with how you word your posts, but I think after reading this that you are very very amazing! A little piece of your heart and soul were shown in your post and I admire you for diving into it to share with us. Thank You!

As if there is something wrong with belonging to a mosque?

Rick,

What mosque do you belong to??

CT,

Yes, the UN (of which we are a part) created the partition of Palestine which led to the so called “State of Israel”. We could have vetoed this result just like we’ve vetoed hundreds of resolutions to chastise Israel’s immoral and illegal behavior with respect to the Palestinians. But we did not; therefore we are responsible for the creation of Israel as well as its criminal subjugation of the Palestinian people.

What other oil countries have we invaded? Why do we maintain up to 3 carrier task groups in the Arabian Gulf region threatening to start WW III? I would say we have invaded them all. This was the root cause of the 911 attack on the USA, which you continually rant at the world of Islam about but was our own doing.

Kacoo,

You noted: "Insulting and inflaming the entire Muslim world with the way we established the Jewish state has given America a 24/7 reason to invade any oil field we choose."

We, i.e. the USA, did not establish the Jewish State. The UN did in 1948. Have you sent your complaint to them???

And other than saving Muslim Kuwait from the warmongering Saddam Hussien and his band of Baath terrorists with a subsequent invasion of Iraq to finally put an end to this reject of humanity and his family and followers, what other oil producing countries have we invaded??????

Good post Kacoo,

But I take issue with your statement that Jews who take extreme and belligerent positions on the Israeli-Palestinian issue serve to strengthen America’s energy security. On the contrary, they weaken it.

With the formation of the Iran-Russia-China alliance and Shiite controlled Iraq now firmly within the orbit of Iran, thanks to the disastrous neo-con led overthrow of Sunni controlled Iraq; the Sunni controlled Gulf States have a decision to make. Do they want to align themselves with the US-Zionist alliance; or do they want to align themselves with the Iran-Russia-China alliance? I predict that given that Hobson’s choice they will hold their collective noses and sign on with the latter.

http://www.afpc.org/crm/crm372.htm

With the US importing over 400 million barrels of oil per month at $100 per barrel, and over 60 million barrels provided by Gulf States, and over 190 million barrels provided by OPEC. We are in a very weak position to be starting WW III with Islam over the illegitimate “State of Israel”.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

I sometimes wonder if American oil policy has facilitated belligerence among Jews worldwide. We've known since the Battle of the Bulge that gasoline was a strategic resource that America could not do without. Therefore, instead of using our genius diplomatic skills that we showed in re-creating Germany, Italy, and Japan, we created Israel is the most heavy-handed and undiplomatic way possible. Insulting and inflaming the entire Muslim world with the way we established the Jewish state has given America a 24/7 reason to invade any oil field we choose. Jews who take extreme and belligerent positions on the Israeli-Palestinian issue serve to strengthen America's oil security, but at what cost to their own culture?

Rick,

Indeed we are "surrounded" by one billion Muslims in this easy-accessible modern world. With the koran as their guide, they have been shouting "death to the infidels" for the last 1400 years not just since 1948. The problem now is that we can hear and smell the stench of their warmongering message.

The solution: Delete the flaws in the koran and "pink slip" all the "red-neck" imams. "Pink-slipping" all the "red neck" Christian preachers, "profits" and priests and "we are the chosen" rabbis is also part of the solution.

Ahh, Pseudo returns with basically the same 50 words he/she used last month and the month before that.

Concerned Shell Script Now Limited:

The Trojan War probably never happened.

Troy probably never existed.

The Peloponnesian War is attested to by a single source, so it probably did not happen.

Shakespeare probably never existed. Francis Bacon probably wrote his plays.

You probably are a chat bot.

umm- is that j you sign off with for jihadist or jewess?

blood don't lie.

Hello CT,

Yes, point taken, we too are living on stolen land. However, you must admit this is not a valid comparison to the situation in Palestine; where according to President Bush, we are on the verge starting WW III.

There are about 9.5 million angry displaced Palestinians surrounding the so called “State of Israel”. They outnumber the 6 Million Zionist invaders by a considerable margin.

A comparable situation would be, if instead of a few Native Americans living in reservations and resigned to their fate; we had 500 Million irate natives surrounding us and on the warpath. And further assume that the rest of the world sides with the natives, due to the clearly immoral and illegal manner in which we obtained our land.

Rick,

Hmmm, US aid to Israel is basically equivalent to that of Egypt. You might also say the Muslim lobby in Congress is much stronger than any Israeli influence based on our additional expenditures to defend and care for the Moslems in Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq.

And Might Makes Right had a much large influence in our own country where we stole the lands of the American Indians although much of the land was probably never inhabited. But in the end, it is estimated that 20 million American Indians died via Might Makes Right. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#America -

And when are you giving your current real estate holdings back to their rightful owners??

Rick,

So you don't believe in "Might Makes Right". The State of Israel is a lot more complicated than that and it did take the UN in 1948 to finally decide on a separate "safe haven" for the very oppressed global Jewish population. Have you complained to the UN about their decision? Complaints to your Congressional representatives?

And since Might Make Right with respect to many issues to include taking the lands of the American Indians (assuming they were here first), when are you giving your current real estate holdings to the former owners and moving back to wherever?

Susan,

I agree with you on many things, like philosophy (atheist) and politics (fiercely anti-neocon and anti-Bush). I wonder if we agree on the issue of the legitimacy of the “State of Israel”. I consider it to be an illegitimate state, having been founded by the British, the League of Nations, and the UN, by virtue of having prevailed in WW I. They had no right to displace the native inhabitants of the region now referred to as Palestine, and import hundreds of thousands of Zionist immigrants. This could only be justified by the philosophy of “Might Makes Right”, which I do not agree with.

Would you please give us your view of this? I believe that it is on topic, because I think that the right of return to the “Holy Land” does define (or is a very important aspect of) Jewish identity for many Jews.

Jihadist,

Actually, I am American. My heritage is British - my father was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland. So although I am a steadfast citizen here in the States, part of my heart lies in Ireland and Scotland. I am an Ulsterman by direct descent, my forefathers having come from Scotland to Ireland in the 17th century. We came from the Borders, and there we were reivers - raiders, looters, cattle rustlers and horse thieves. And damned proud of it. Alas, we had to be 'civilized' in Ireland...

It has been related to me that an Ulsterman combines the worst features of Irish and Scots....

It has also been related to me that God created whiskey so that the Irish would not rule the world. The same has been said of the Scots.

And I once read that Freud despaired of the Irish, declaring that they are the one people who cannot be psychoanalyzed. I take this as a compliment.

Best, and God bless,

Arminius

Hmmm, after 153 comments, the major observation/quote is still:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe especially Jews, Christians, Pagans and Infidels.

But The Obfuscating Jihadist rambles on about genealogy believing somehow some god has blessed her with the true "prophit" and the true religion. How strange with all that education to continue down this koranic false path.

Hello Arminius,

I was wondering whether I should have shared here my background as in my previous post. But Maurie Beck is a blog friend here and am happy to see him again.

I never knew you're British. If I had not gone to a university in Britain, I would not have known the full story on my maternal side. My mother never spoke much about her family or parents' faiths when we were growing up.

During the summer break after my first year in college, I went gallivanting with a couple of friends to a few European cities. We also ended in Prague because I want to see where Kafka had lived before. We ended in the Jewish ghetto. We saw the Klausen and Pinkas Synagogues. We saw the wall with the names of over 70 thousand Jews send to concentration camps by the Nazis during WW II.

Going to Amsterdam for a few days before getting back to UK, we stayed at my maternal grandparents'. I told my grandmother what I saw in Prague. She was not exactly a devout or practicing Jew, but what I said I saw in Prague and how I felt about it brought a barrage of memories from her, of wounds that won't bleed and scars that won't heal in remembering her family members and friends who were sent to the concentration camps and perished there. I never knew this before.

I got to get off.

Have a good weekend.

Thanks and regards
"J"

"I can see it now, Eboo, Moody, Rudy, Victoria, Mischka and The Obfuscating Jihadist marching in the St. Patrick's Day parade clothed in bright green thawbs and heads topped with blazing green hijabs and with flawed korans in their fists, shouting "Death to Infidels, Christians and Jews"."

Heck, I'd pay good money to see that! :D Will they be marching before or after the Pagans, who will be urging the crowd to give up the Protestant vs. Catholic fight and just go back to worshipping Brigid and Dagda?

CCNL - Wikipedia is your friend. "The difference between Voodoo and Hoodoo is very similar to the difference between Wicca and Witchcraft. Voodoo is a religion that serves the Afro-Caribbean Loa or Lwa and the Catholic/Christian saints. Hoodoo, on the other hand, is the magical practice, with no religious connections or connotations." I practice Wicca, which stems from the pre-Christian religion of the Celts (Ireland, Scotland, Britain, etc.) Voodoo, or Voudoun, is a syncretism between the African Yoruba/Ifa religion and French Catholicism.

Jihadist,

Well, you continue to amaze me. Quite a fasinating family history you have. Mine is all British, a mixture of Scots-Irish and English (no Welsh, alas).

Conserned does not have too many friends here. I am Christian, and am totally offended by his attitude of hatred and spite - particularly when aimed at you, whom I consider a web friend. I am so turned off by him that I cannot consider or trust anything he has to say - his bigotry poisons it all.

DITLD,

Actually the following is a good summary of the situation with our Islamic commentators: (as noted on another thread)

I can see it now, Eboo, Moody, Rudy, Victoria, Mischka and The Obfuscating Jihadist marching in the St. Patrick's Day parade clothed in bright green thawbs and heads topped with blazing green hijabs and with flawed korans in their fists, shouting "Death to Infidels, Christians and Jews".

Let us hope this never happens but as followers of the flawed koran, they visualize it in their brainwashed minds out of necessity to fulfill their flawed koranic dreams.

Hello Maurie Beck,

Good to see you back here. You post on Woody Allen quotes is really funny. I hope you don't mind my doing a revised Muslim version. I love ramen too apart from pasta.

2007 was not so good health-wise with a bout of food poisoning and the appendicitis out. But workwise, very good. Yes, still raping and pillaging the global markets. But I seem to be more worried about the US economy than any of your presidential candidates.

As for Concerned the Christian Now Liberated, it is not just me. It's also all Muslim panelists and Muslim posters, everyone in On Faith who don't agree with him, including his fellow Christians, that he is on an obsessive-offensive-aggressive run.

The list of people he's after is very, very long. But, there is nothing he can do beyond taunting, screaming, harrassing, vilifying and demanding this and that. It would kill him to know that his goverment again renewed a multi-year, multiple entry visa to the US for me with no fuss at all.

It would also perhaps makes him go berserk that while my Indonesian father is Muslim, my Dutch mother is, in fact, half-Catholic and half-Jewish. Not that she cared much for her parents' faith, but she did send us to Catholic run schools. I only got interested to know a bit more on Christianity and
Judaism in college after finding out from my maternal Jewish grandmother about members of her family sent to concentration camps and never seen again.

Coming to On Faith is a convenient one-stop place to learn more about the faiths of my maternal ancestors. With this question of Jewish identity, it does makes me wonder how American Jews or Jewish Americans would view me. Technically, by conservative Judaism, as my maternal grandmother is Jewish, so is my mother. Does that makes me Jewish then, even if I identified myself as Malaysian, Malay and Muslim?:)

My family in Indonesia, my husband family's in Malaysia, as well as friends and colleagues do know of my by fluke, by chance all three Abrahamic faiths and European-Asian heritage. They are not as "polite" as westerners. They just ask upfront. They don't care at all in knowing of my heritage, but some Malaysian colleagues do josh me that having some Jewish blood makes me a good banker. I never see that as a slur.

My family may be odd to some people. My Indonesian grandfather fought and died fighting against the Dutch for Indonesia's independence. His impetus being when the Dutch troops killed members of his family as a example when they refused to give up their land for a Dutch coffee plantation. One of his son married a Dutch woman in the sixties.

There is a whole raft of relatives on my mother's side scattered in the Netherlands, UK, Canada and US who are Jewish, Catholics, and, as I like to tease some who don't believe, "faithless". We keep in touch and visit one another when we are in each other's "neighbourhoods".

Thanks and regards
"J"

Hi Jihadist,

I had thought you had disappeared. Are you feeling better? I disappeared too. Without you to go rape and pillaging with, I saw no reason to continue.

I'm surprised that CNL is still bagging on you. The world would be less rich without you. I wonder if CNL actually feels that way.

Maurie

Hi Jihadist,

I had thought you had disappeared. Are you feeling better? I disappeared too. Without you to go rape and pillaging with, I saw no reason to continue.

I'm surprised that CNL is still bagging on you. The world would be less rich without you. I wonder if CNL actually feels that way.

Maurie

Hi Jihadist,

I had thought you had disappeared. Are you feeling better? I disappeared too. Without you to go rape and pillaging with, I saw no reason to continue.

I'm surprised that CNL is still bagging on you. The world would be less rich without you. I wonder if CNL actually feels that way.

Maurie

If that's a famous quote, then I'm an Iraqi war-bride.

Alan,

I appreciate your use of color as an analogy. Color is very complex and to create it requires a set "recipe" (a la paint mixing). I suppose you could substitue the different hues that make up red for the different cultural/religious/etc. aspects of a person. But this implies a complete blending of these aspects. What do you do when two or more parts of who you are cannot be reconciled to one another, or you simply don't want to identify as one particular label? Can you be red with blue polka dots?

Most people do have different ideas as to what constitues as red. Take my husband for example: burgandy, magenta, wine, crimson, scarlet...all "red" to him. Ever try to play Trivial Pursuit with someone who is colorblind? What I'm trying to get at is, if we don't have the same idea of red, we go by which light is illluminated on the stoplight, or the shape of the stop sign.

Anon and DITLD,

Harassment of The Obfuscating Jihadist? Not really!!! It is all about fear and again that famous quote,

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe!!!

The Jihadist refuses to come to grips with said koranic flaws which makes her a potential threat to our well being. She is reminded of this each time she tries to distract us from the significant dangers of Islam.

Analogous reminders are given to all the Muslim commentators who also fail to come to grips with the koranic flaws. e.g. Eboo, Moody, Rudy, Pamela, Victoria and Mischka.

Daniel,

It's called harassement.

A final remark to CCNL, and then I will probably not say anything more to him (but who knows, I might...)

I have no complaint with your thesis that "the history of organized relgion has caused alot of problems in the world..." At least that is my paraphrase, I think that might be correct.

I am just puzzled as to why you zero-in on an individual person, who, as far as I can tell, is just a plain, regular, innocuous person, who more often than not, is posting in a light-hearted and ironic way.

That is all. I have nothing against you, at all; I just don't understand what are your posts are getting at.

I do not understand or agree with everything that Jihadist says, but I think she is droll.

Ghostbuster: “Have you ever seen a large newsworthy event happen live before your eyes?”

Yes I have, more than once, and I know just what you mean. I’m grateful to have had the experience, because it’s made me very skeptical of taking what I read at face value. I’ve also had the experience of being acquainted with the subject matter and some of the people interviewed in a news story and have seen how reporters can misrepresent people and situations or simply leave out information that doesn’t fit whatever angle they’re going for.

"The heart of anti-Semitism is calling one Jew (even a half-Jew) to account for the actions and beliefs of other Jews."

Excuse me, but that is just wrong. The "heart" (if you can even use the term) of anti-Semitism is hate and defamation based on myths and falsehoods. It has nothing whatsoever to do with actual actions of any Jew.

CCNL, you are correct. Jihadist is using liberal rhetoric and speaking to liberals in their own language. Time to turn the tables and speak to Jihadist in his/her own Islamic language.

Have you also notice that her/his posts have no point? He/she is all over the place with abstract ideas.

Anonymous wrote:

DontTypeLies - Speed123 - You typed it very articulatley. Using the secular/athiest card is a free pass to trample on Christians. When in fact, the Christians are their best friends.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Most people who blame others for their sorry-assed-lives should look in the mirror. It's you, not them who are responsible for your inferiority.

Answer:

Because your friends may not always see eye to eye with you on everything, but your friends will stand by you and even get interned in a concentration camp to defend you. As my family did.

And I agree with you, your inferiority complex is not the problem of your friends. It is your own.

Athena, Athena, Athena,

So "unpagan" of you!!! (or is it!!!) Must be the HooDoo and VooDoo genes taking over your mind!!!!

Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near?

Why do fools fall in love?

Who wrote the book of Love?

CCNL - STFU.

E-Fav,

Yea... it was a brilliant marketing tactic. I've got to give the Discovery Channel props for that. I remember the whole story was good for a few days of comic relief.

I think your last point about how we filter and percieve data may be a key to all this. Have you ever seen a large newsworthy event happen live before your eyes? After the event, did everyone see the same thing? I've seen a few events "live" along with lots of witnesses. It's amazing how many different viewpoints are drawn from the same event.

The Obfuscating Jihadist gives it a nice try and the "nice guy" Christians/atheists give her "kudos" but until she admits that the koran have significant flaws in its foundations, she must be considered a potential security risk just as the seven well-educated, Islamic doctors in the UK turned out to be.

Ghostbuster -- I was still a churchgoer(but a closet atheist) when the Jesus tomb story came out.

I was shocked at how seriously some of my liberal Christan colleagues took it all. I think even if I had been a believing Christian, I would have seen it for the media hoax that it was, but then, it's hard to put oneself in another's shoes.

Jihadist - Your English vocabulary and mastery of idiomatic usage is phenomenal. Better than most native speakers.

Your grammar slips occasionally: "This maniac don't give a hoot."

Should be: This maniac DOESN’T give a hoot.

E Fav,

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with much of your reasoning. I was thinking about the Discovery Channel special "The Tomb of Jesus" when I was thinking up that analogy.

Jihadist,
Your Ms. Universe bit was hilarious! I'm glad to see that you don't take all the comments on here too seriously.

Regards,
GB

Arminius and Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Both of you are very nice and gallant. But, do me and yourself a favour. Whenever Concerned the Christian Now Liberated or anyone else commented on me or my posts, let is pass. I do and will respond as and when I deem necessary.

You're both civil, considered and measured. So, you can never get into my kind of mode as an unrepentent religious maniac.:)

And Daniel, thanks for your posts directed to me in other threads. If you see that I don't acknowledge them, it is not because I don't read them, but because I agreed with what you said, or I have never thought of "it" that way before.

Getting off now.

Thanks and best regards

"J"

Jihadist,

Kudos! Keep it coming! Wow!

Anon,

My initial commends were not condescending. I do believe you can be culturally Jewish. We have seen that as a state of Jewishness for people, but being culturally Jewish and religiously Jewish are different things. You correctly identified the need for terms. To use logic: something is either blue or red (using primary colors). But, when we see something that it is blue and red, we know that makes purple, a completely different color, thus a completely different name. Same goes for identity. Either something is red or it is not. If we all have different ideas as to what red is, than we are going to have a lot of car accidents. Same goes for what makes a "Jew".

Hello Tim,

Of course Malaysia is going to racial and religious pieces again due to yet again pre-elections raping, looting, pillage and plunder.

Of course I am prone to lectures to those who gave me lectures.

Of course Sunni Malaysia is turning into Shiite Iran.

Of course non-Muslims are given a hundred lashes and all put in jail.

Of course I am a Japanese American who goes back to Japan during WW II.

Of course the United States have declared war with Malaysia and I am to the "Kuala Lumpur Hibiscus" to tempt and weaken American marines coming to Malaysia to nuke Malaysians with my BBC english pronouciations. Oh, wait, it should be a midwestern American accent.

Of course Americans are so unsuspecting, and American minds are so weak and unfree that anyone can mislead them, including Americans.

Of course I am the worst kind of person for people who tries to figure me out from their own prisms and prejudices.

Of course you can call me "liar" or "naive". It is your freedom of thought and expression, no?

Of course I will take your suggestion that I dust off my "niqab" to be ready for the new fashion-wear in Malaysia.

Of course I am not given to self-induced hysteria and self-inflicted fear as some are.

Thanks and regards
"J" :)

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Ahhh...my favourite obssessive personal "ever watching" Crossanized Christian and Catholic of Reality "watchdog"!

Hello Pussycat. Turning your guns on your fellow Americans now for having a different view from yours?

Islam is perfect.
Convert to Islam.
Up to 4 wives in life.
Up to 72 virgins in the afterlife.

PS :

- Up to 4 wives subjected to the Shariah laws of Muslim states, your financial affordability and physical virility.

- Up to 72 virgins in the afterlife is the pre and post 9/11 fiction of mujahids.

I repeat:

Islam is perfect!
Convert to Islam!

Okay now, use that. LOL

"J" the Islamist (use this too in your future posts)

Jihadist is a joke. Please review this BBC radio link and observe the typical Islamic repression happening in Malaysia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmtvHMHHaRU

Jihadist has no credibility because Malaysia is becoming just another Iran. While she lectures us her country burns Christians churches and persecutes anyone who is not a Muslim. Jihadist you are a Tokyo Rose and I think you may even be an agent of the Islamist. She is probably a he masquerading to mislead unsuspecting Americans.

Jihadist, you are the worst kind of person because you mislead people from a position of so called moderation. You are either a liar or a very naive person who has no idea of what is going on in their own country. Jihadist you should go dust off your niqab because you will be required to wear this in Malaysia very shortly.

So many big "o" words used here.:)

I am, of course, on the side of all believers in this "culture war" and battle between "brights vs morons."

It was them "brights" who use these terms and draw the line that all believers are irrational and without reason and they are rational and with reason.

I love to josh and mess with the "other side" for fun sometimes on their posts. I am not supposed to be rational and logical. They are.

They seem to have more problems with "identity" than believers do, apart from stating they don't
believe in God, and then taking bits and pieces of religion as well as culture and traditions associated with religion. Some are honest about it and kudos to them.

Never seen Buddhism denied as a faith or religion before until I read On Faith threads by some who adopts it.

Some of their posts on God, religion, ethics and values do sound like what Miss Universe contestants would say when asked:

Interviewer : "What do you want?"

Miss Universe Contestant: "I want world peace!" (Dazzling smile beamed)

Some atheists : "World peace is only possible if everyone stop believing in God, the Supernatural, and to stop being member of organised religions.(Scowling with furrowed brows)

Religion makes life richer and more interesting for adherents as individuals and groups. I have no idea why some feel that we have to shed what some call the "baggage" of belief in our mind and life. Obviously, even with this so-called "baggage", a believer's life is no less, if not more fulfilling than non-believers without it. Of course that is an opinion due to personal experience.

I have no idea where some got the notion that all believers are anti-science due to some fundamentalists rejecting evolution and going for creationism instead. Let the creationists and evolutionists slug it out in the public square.

I do learn a lot from many atheists here thought. But there is nothing anyone can really do about some believers generalising on all atheists just as some atheists generalised on all believers.

The non-believers relating how and why they shed their former beliefs and faiths, seeking, finding and asserting new identities as atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, secular humanists are fascinating to read as their personal journey of self-awareness and self-discovery.

For the record, I don't care for what Concerned the Christian Now Liberated said about me. Let him go berserk on my posts. Let him call me by whatever names and labelling he wants. Let him speculate all he wants about me. He's a pussycat.

Bring on the "o" words and then some. This maniac don't give a hoot. LOL

"J"

DITLD, DITLD, DITLD,

The list of "obs" for The Obfuscating Jihadist is entertaining but also does not change the fact that she is a "die-hard" Islamist who thinks Islam is perfect at least as per her previous commentary here (and to the ever watching imams and their Islamic watch dogs). So again, until the flaws of the koran and Islam are corrected and the Islamic watch dogs and their imams are removed we will never know the true "obs" of the current Obfuscating Jihadist.

Daniel ITLD,

You said:
"So what if Jihadist is obfuscating? So what?

At least she is not objurate, obsiquious, or oblivious. She does not engage in obloquy. She is not obstinate, obstreperous, or obstructive. She is not obtund. She does not obviate. "

....and I laughed so hard I nearly strangled! Thanks for lightening my day. I hugely enjoy Jihadist's posts. Concerned can just deal with it. (I have given up reading his posts beyond a quick scan to confirm that it is the same crap.)

DITLN, DITLN, DITLN,

Hmmm, so you like The Obfuscating Jihadist. Hey no problem. I could say it is a free world but that is hardly the case in places like the Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran. Malaysia, The "Obfuing" Jihadist's supposedly country of residence is fast approaching the same status of Iran. One therefore assumes The Jihadist's "obfuing" is closely watched for any non-Islamic comments. So bottom line, all of The Jihadist's commentary is tainted by the fear of the Islamic secret police, both in Malaysia and Iran. How very troubling since it appears The Jihadist could be easy called The Obviating Jihadist with her analyses of the flaws of Islam that she is so painfully aware of.

Golanx: "Finally, the more one researches the recent archeological developments, the more the stories in the Tanach are proven as factual, including the Exodus."

Please give me some references -- I'd like to check out this research on my own.

Thanks

So what if Jihadist is obfuscating? So what?

At least she is not objurate, obsiquious, or oblivious. She does not engage in obloquy. She is not obstinate, obstreperous, or obstructive. She is not obtund. She does not obviate.

I can only think of her one true fault: exessive obfuscatingness. So, is that so bad? Everyone has faults; no one is perfect.

Casting collective blame on a whole group of people, because you can identify a specific few in that group, whom you do not like, is a sign of a low IQ, with a limited capacity to think.

Looking through some of the comments, one cannot be but impressed by the depth of dumbth and ignorance that crawls off the pages.
To the inveterate anti-Semites in the guise of anti-Zionists: Every inch of land in Israel was either legally bought or captured in a war which the Arabs started to destroy us. Take it or shove it! BTW, after the establishment of Israel approximately 7-800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries from Iraq to Morocco, leaving behind possessions of est. $ 10 billion. Population exchanges after wars are quite common, see the movement of Anatolian Greeks and Balkan Turks respectively after WW I.
To Sheelah: Christianity the one true religion??-
If you want to believe this for yourself, fine. Stating this as fact is idiotic. Christianity in its original form was a subsect of Judaism, until Paul of Tarsus decided to bastardize it with hellenistic, mithraic and other pagan elements to make it more palatable to the broad populace of the Roman Empire.
To the secularist and other cultural Jews: Disavow the Torah and the Tanach all you want, it is irrelevant. In every generation a large percentage of Jews chose to abandon their heritage, perceiving it as too burdensome, too restrictive, and lately not enough chic or P.C.
Call me a tribalist but the Jewish Nation will survive with or without you. Moreover, there are many examples where descendants of Jews who had converted returned to Judaism generations later.
Finally, the more one researches the recent archeological developments, the more the stories in the Tanach are proven as factual, including the Exodus.
My old rabbi once told me about those who doubt the veracity of the Torah: If we had chiseled it into the walls of our temples nobody would doubt it; all the Egyptian hieroglyphs are taken uncritically as truth!

DontTypeLies - Speed123 - You typed it very articulatley. Using the secular/athiest card is a free pass to trample on Christians. When in fact, the Christians are their best friends.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Most people who blame others for their sorry-assed-lives should look in the mirror. It's you, not them who are responsible for your inferiority.

Dear Friends:

As the Coordinator of the Half-Jewish Network, the largest organization for adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage, I appreciate Ms. Jacoby's efforts to keep the issues of half-Jewish people publicized.

Thank you, Ms. Jacoby!

Cordially,
Robin Margolis
www.half-jewish.net

This is for Jihadist

You wrote a very nice thing, a few comments, up above. The last thing you said was:

"The question is, why do some people fear losing an 'identity' but not others?"

I had typed a whole bunch of stuff here, telling you all my differnt takes on your comment, and analyzing it this way and that, and weighing first on this hand, and then on the other hand.

But I decided to delete all that; and just leave you a simple compliment, at that.

"The Jewish success story in America was made possible by America's separation of church and state."

It is possible that the principle of the separation of Church and state may in fact be the key foundation for any secular democracy. For once a nation truly recognizes and enforces separation of church and state, then does this not lead to freedom of speech and the rest of our protections? First separation then the rest comes more easily or naturally follows.

A society that recognized separation of church and state will hopefully have the rule of law enforced with regard to this principle. For in too many cases the law is not really enforced, even when the constitution of some nation specifies freedom of religion and the protection for religious minorities. Both are necessary: the law and the active enforcement of the law.

I agree with Jacoby but would add, "The Jewish success story in America was made possible by America's separation of church and state and the active enforcement of the rule of law."

Americans may not always agree with the laws or the interpretation of specific situations and laws by our Supreme Court. Yet Americans respect the rule of law and will abide by the law even when we vehemently disagree. This respect for and enforcement of the rule of law above what some religious leader may be telling us in our place of worship, is key to what makes America a place where the Jews, as well as many other minorities, have succeeded. It makes us a place where religious tradition is not enforceable and creativity in worship can flourish.

Tradition dies when exposed as unnecessary and religious identities are compromised or modified. Freedom blossoms. Tradition for tradition's sake suffers for lack of enforceable church bureaucracy. Without the artificial stifling of the flock by self serving religious leaders, things will evolve, as they should.

Ghostbuster: “Let's say that there is a massive archeological dig in Jerusalem that is being funded by Pat Robertson. In this dig, the unthinkable happens, the actual empty tomb of Jesus is found complete with a broken seal and a large stone that was rolled away. Also in the tomb are first century writings on the walls explaining the significance of the tomb, an original copy of the gospel "Mark", and other notable findings. Upon researching this discovery, (insert most influential atheist of your choice) concludes that there is validity to the findings.”

Interesting. It would certainly pique my interest – and I’m sure anything positive about Jesus would make it to the front page of all the papers and be the talk of all the cable news shows (unlike the negative findings, which barely get mentioned).

However, Pat Robertson and Influential Atheist are not ancient historians or archeologists. As someone who accepts and respects science – that’s whose opinion I’d wait for – and I’d read it very carefully, because I know even these people carefully parse their words when they know they’re dealing with the public.

If Pat Robertson and Influential Atheist concurred that a saying a certain combination of prayers could cure a certain form of cancer, I’d wait for the scientists to weigh in – it’s their bailiwick, plain and simple.

As for finding a copy of the gospel of Mark in the tomb – that would be my first clue that it was a hoax, as it is well known that Mark wasn’t written until 30-40 years after Jesus’ supposed execution.

Speed123

You typed it very articulatley. Using the secular/athiest card is a free pass to trample on Christians. When in fact, the Christians are their best friends. They should respect them and stop forcing athiesm and secularist fundamentalism down their throats.

As we know the population of Jews of the world is very small. They would be better off being polite to their friends than trampling on them.

My point from the beginning.

Hmmm, why and where exactly have these trillions of dollars been spent? A short synopsis on our War on Terror and Aggression.

First a partial contemporary body count:

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens dead, thousands more injured.

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam the warmonger, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD before and after the Gulf War was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait is still free.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq.) And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region to fuel the world's economies.

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! (Or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression brought about by the Japanese, Nazis and Communists were with great difficulty and expenditure of lives and money eliminated by the good guys.

And the leadership of both Democratic and Republican Presidents and the will of all good peoples continue to guide us through these troubling times.

Dr. S. Rothstein wrote:

Why should American Jews welcome the support of the
Christian Right?The answer is simple indeed: they are Israel's best friends in the U.S.A. After strongly favored Democrats for sixty years, I have come to see that the support of the Left for Israel is doubtful--check out the Move On crowd, Chomsky, Finkelstein et al.And the growth of anti-semitism in Europe,Asia and Latin American pretty clearly that if we value the safety of one-third of the world's Jews, we had better welcome the support of all the friends we can get.

You are so correct.

And please remember who helped the Jews during Hitler's tyranny. My family did, and so did the Christians of the US.

:-)

The democrats and leftists have tons of anti-semites in it. I am not Jewish myself, and behind closed doors you should hear what they say about Jews and Israel.

One democrat I know even wanted to be a suicide bomber. I reported her to the FBI.

And The Obfuscating Jihadist continues in her attempts to distract us from the critical global issue of the last 1400 years i.e. the flaws in the founder and foundations of Islam!!!!!

Why are some people avoiding the issue of Jewish "identity"?

Why are some people still blaming Jews for the cruxifiation of Christ?

Why are some people after Voltaire still blaming Jews for monotheism and religion?

Who are these neo-Voltaires blaming all religions instead of their own failed attempts to get people to laud and live by science and reason instead of treating the sciences as just school and college subjects, and the specialisations of those destined to wear white coats and be holed up in labs?

Why are some people hiding behind science as Teflon from seeing the reality that reason and science can't solve everything?

Why are some people not able to do simple additions as in:

Science + Social Science = understanding of human nature and the human condition

Reading "Our Crowd" is much more interesting than reading on quantum physics. The former a very scintillating human story. The latter, well, easy to understand, and devoid of the story and examples of human will, hope, survival and generousity.

At ease "dogmatic secularists" and "militant atheists!

"J":)

Ahh, the Obfuscating Jihadist is really "obfuing" it this morning. Her Iranian handlers must be miffed at her for allowing Islam's "dirty underwear" to be highlighted in almost every commentary for the last year. Or do you think that "pretty wingie thingie" of the "Pretty Wingie" Hall of Shame has paid her a visit giving her added inspiration to hide the sordid details of Mo and Gabe's con game???

Why is science at odds with Islam?
What has hijab got to do with it?

Why do people made pilgrimages to the Jefferson, the Washington, the Lincoln monuments?

Why do people understand symbolisms in religious and secular rites?

Has anyone seen Thaipusam?
Has anyone seen Diwali?
Has anyone seen Vesak Day?
Has anyone received sacrement?
Has anyone been baptised?
Has anyone cleansed himself in the Ganges?
Has anyone seen a King's or Queen's coronation?
Has anyone seen the formalities of a state visit?
Has anyone light a candle in a Bob Dylan concert?
Has anyone seen an American President being sworn in?

*Bhinneka tunggal ika*.
Translation - Unity in diversity.
Motto of Indonesia

Why against Islam?

*Bersekutu bertambah mutu*
Translation - Unity is strenght.
Motto of Malaysia

Why against Islam?

"E Pluribus Funk"
- Album by Grand Funk Railroad.
Why against E Pluribus Unum?

Woody Allen - Revised

I don't want to achieve immortality, ... I want to achieve legacy.

If it turns out that there is a God, the atheists will explain where It was before. But the worst that you can say about It is that basically It was busy elsewhere.

Life is full of faith, hope and charity - if only we have unlimited time and resources.

To you I'm a believer; to atheists, I'm the Loyal Delusionist.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together but both will be wondering what in the world were they thinking of in attempting inter-specie sex.

I will eat oysters. I want my food as aphrodisiacs.

Her figure described nothing as she was covered in hijab.

Love is the answer when the sex is bad.

Sex is dirty only when when the other did not have a bathe in a month and the underwear is a week old.

There are three things Muslim people worship—God, latest techno gadgets, and a buffet spread.

Whosoever shall not fall by the nukes or by HIV/AIDS, shall fall by junk food. So why bother?

Why should American Jews welcome the support of the
Christian Right?The answer is simple indeed: they are Israel's best friends in the U.S.A. After strongly favored Democrats for sixty years, I have come to see that the support of the Left for Israel is doubtful--check out the Move On crowd, Chomsky, Finkelstein et al.And the growth of anti-semitism in Europe,Asia and Latin American pretty clearly that if we value the safety of one-third of the world's Jews, we had better welcome the support of all the friends we can get.

Dear Jihadist(Holy worrier.To whom ?),

You ask *is science and religion really at odds*
Which religion ? If it is islam,lets re-write the question.
Is science and islam really at odds ? Yes,absolutely.

...and religion for intangible ? No,no.
Headscarf and black wrap(it is my choice),the black stone which fell from the Heaven,House of Allah the wooden hut in the middle of desert,Sukut Paper,FGM,sisters and brothers classrooms at university,The religious police,stoning the satan are tangible.

*Bhinneka tunggal ika*.this motto is against islam,because islam rejects the diversity.

Typical irrational, emotional response from Beck...

Don't believe in cause and effect? Or don't like to look at all of the history of the era?

For The Obfuscating Jihadist, so that she might get back to her report on how to correct the flaws in the koran and Islam, thereby making the world a safer place for all of humankind especially the Jews:

No
No
Yes
No
Wishful thinking
No
No
Yes
No
No

speed123 - Dear Beck - That is not my point.

I hope my point was unambiguous.

Sincerely,

Christ Killer

Dear Beck,

That is not my point.

The point is that there are causes and effects in history and Jewish domination of early communist leadership was not lost on the Nazis...yet it is entirely lost of leftist/secular press like Jacoby and Hitchens (a fat Trotskyite, himself).

The neo cons today put up a similar idea - that "they hate us because we are free"....right....

PS - Irving Kristol, the neo conservative godfather, was a Trotskyite, btw.

Interesting historical footnote - lets hope history does not repeat itself.

There is a depression coming...

Ron G - For a left wing atheist cultural jew, I still struggle with a half-baked desire to buy a ouzi and join the Jewish Defense League.

I believe you meant to say Ouzel instead of "ouzi'. Water Ouzels are little birds (also known as dippers) that dip and dart into fast flowing streams and rivers in search of insects. They are much more effective than ouzis, though probably not as effective as an Uzi.

I think this is an excellent article and 99% correct in its analysis and conclusions. The only point I would quibble with is the author's conclusion that "America will never impose an identity on(American Jews)". I would simply say DON'T COUNT ON THAT. If the religious right ever achieve the political dominance they are working towards, look out. If there's one thing we all should have learned by now, its that history repeats itself, over and over and over again. For a left wing atheist cultural jew, I still struggle with a half-baked desire to buy a ouzi and join the Jewish Defense League (although I'm not even sure if they still exist).

Dear speed123,

You've been warned. I'm part of the jewish, atheist, communist conspiracy of international bankers and media moguls and we're coming to get you. Plus, don't forget we still plan to drink the blood of your christian children.

Supposedly, Jews are the chosen people. Many self-respecting Jews become atheists or agnostics when they inadvertently ask, "Chosen for what?" Perhaps it's time god chose someone else to be special.

As an insight into Jewish culture, here are some quotations by Woody Allen. Jews don't get much deeper than this, unless it's Jack Abramoff and Tom DeLay swindling Indians.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Woody Allen

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work... I want to achieve it through not dying.

If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.

Life is full of misery, loneliness, and suffering - and it's all over much too soon.

To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.

The lion and the calf shall lie down together but the calf won't get much sleep.

I will not eat oysters. I want my food dead. Not sick—not wounded—dead.

Her figure described a set of parabolas that could cause cardiac arrest in a yak.

Love is the answer, but while you are waiting for the answer, sex raises some pretty good questions.

Sex is dirty—only when it's done right.

There are three things Jewish people worship—God, Chinese food and wall-to-wall carpeting.

Whosoever shall not fall by the sword or by famine, shall fall by pestilence so why bother shaving?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Above I mentioned "insight into Jewish culture." This was an unfortunate usage of terminology, in that "Insight" is a loaded word, full of expectations. Jews generally shy away from words full of expectations because we're brought up on a steady diet of life-changing assertions and certainties like 'My son, the doctor.' 'My son, the lawyer.' 'My son, the indicted lobbyist in cahoots with Christian fundamentalists.'

As you can see, not much was expected of Jewish girls except to marry well, get fat, acquire diamonds, and say, 'My son the doctor, my son the lawyer.' All that changed with the advent of feminism. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Jacoby sure goes easy on the Jews while she LOVES and uses her little platform here and modest intellect to bash Christians and Muslims and uses her "atheist" card to do so...

What did you call Mother Teresa again?

Same story for Hitchens and Harris.

So does atheism allow you room to attack other religions for the sake of your Jewish materialism/socialism and tribal nature.

You think that we cant see through this smoke and mirrors and that there is no historical precedent?

Look to Jewish involvement in Bolshevism in Germany and Hungry and Russia in the 1920-30s and you will find the reason for National Socialism and the horrors it produced.

PS - 10 million people were starved by a Jewish Bolshevik general in the Ukraine in 1932.

But neither this atrocity, nor the Armenia Genocide, are recognized by the Jewish community or the US govt.

Take responsibility for your actions and learn from them, Jacoby...there are causes for horrible events that explain but do not justify.

Priver - I suspect I'm in the majority of Catholics - who are not taught about any conflict between faith and evolution. I went to public school, where I was taught evolution by teachers who were catholic (now that I think about it). Granted, it was a long time ago, but there was never a issue about religion in science class. My friends who went to catholic school had an even more rigorous science education. Catholic school was known for being academically tough. They learned that God came before the big bang and that was it about god. The rest was science.

In terms of biblical facts – that’s not biology (except for the resurrection and virgin birth miracles, of course), it’s archeology, ancient history and textual analysis. It’s academic, to be sure, but not the kind of stuff you typically learn in science class – or ever, in the course of a respectable education.

Of the atheists I know, some were convinced by science, some by the lack of historical/archeological evidence (me) and some just knew as small children that the whole thing just didn’t make any sense.

and..........

- is science and religion really at odds, the opposite, truly incompatible?

- is comparing science to religion like comparing apples to oranges?

- is science for tangibles and religion for intangibles?

- is not accepting evolution a criteria for rejection of all science?

- is creationism a theory or hypotheses?

- can faith be measured and quantified by science?

- is the number of times going to church, praying and fasting per week, month and year a measurement of piety, devoutness or spirituality?

- can integrity, ethics and values be measured as in determining taking a $10 graft from traffic speeding offender as grade one lapse and taking a $10 million graft from a land developer is grade ten lapse of intergrity, ethics and values?

- can spirituality be measured by the number of hours meditating or to do right and act right?

- do all Buddhists don't regard Buddha as a deity?

- do all Buddhists believe in the reincarnation?

The Obfuscating Jihandist asked: "The question is, why do some people fear losing an "identity" but not others?"

Fear!!!

of koranic imams and their gangs.

of losings one's status e.g. imams, priests, "prophets", preachers, witches and rabbis.

of losing income and jobs e.g. imams, priests, "prophets", preachers, witches, rabbis, and LDS members.

of the wrath of the singularities to include the demons of HooDoo and VooDoo.

E Fav said:

...If respected academic studies confirmed evidence against some of the basic tenets of your religion and your pastor also supported the findings, would you still believe in the religious teaching?

That is a good question. A couple people are chatting about that very subject over in the Otterson thread.

I think there are a few factors to weigh here...

1) Do you respect the reliablity of the one who conducts the studies?

2) What are the basic tenents of your belief system?

3) How influential is your pastor to your belief system?

4) When faced with the evidence, how much would you still believe?

It's late. Just for fun I'm going to turn the question on it's head. Maybe an atheist on here will play along even though this certainly isn't a perfect analogy...

Let's say that there is a massive archeological dig in Jerusalem that is being funded by Pat Robertson. In this dig, the unthinkable happens, the actual empty tomb of Jesus is found complete with a broken seal and a large stone that was rolled away. Also in the tomb are first century writings on the walls explaining the significance of the tomb, an original copy of the gospel "Mark", and other notable findings. Upon researching this discovery, (insert most influential atheist of your choice) concludes that there is validity to the findings.

Using that criteria, how much would you question your previous assumptions? All? None? Some?

DontTypeLies said:
"And it is also about time we are allowed to have our voice without been silenced by insults and name calling."

Hmmm... I agree with that statement. Insults and name calling (while all too common) are counterproductive to dialogue.

E Fav:

"When I was a believer, science was no problem for me at all. I accepted and respected science, including evolution."

On this, though, from the comments made by some folks here on these threads, it seems you would possibly have been in the minority. The number of folks lining up to try to prove 'historical accuracy' in the bible has grown exponentially in the last couple decades.

The two ideas, religion vs. science and religion vs. 'facts' about elements of a particular religion have got to be pretty closely linked, though, because it's only through empirical data that such biblical evidence, or lack thereof, can be found.

I think the bigger issue it speaks to is that we're doing a pretty crappy job of teaching about science in schools- specifically, what it is, and what is isn't. What do you think?

Arminius -

I believe you're quite incorrect regarding the assertion that Gautama the Buddha is myth - even our most persistant debunker CCNL has found evidence of Gautama's legitimate past history
as a real human. I'll resist drawing a similar parallel with Jesus of Nazareth, but instead will give credit where credit is due.

Let's assume that both of these individuals had the same status as spiritually perfected masters and both offered the same message of personal salvation through one's own efforts (yes, this is a Gnostic interpretation) - I see the doctrine of salvation through a (proxy) intermediary as false..... I'd call it a red herring rather than a heresy.

There is no free lunch but there are the exemplars - those who have preceeded us on the spiritual path. All are fully human or there could be no true parallel to our inherent condition of humanness (the alleged dual nature of Jesus is not accepted as true). Either all are divine, or none are divine. A principle law of the universe as it were.

We should be willing to grant coequal status to all of the various spiritual masters of the past. Perhaps everyone follows a different path to the same destination - we should assume this to be the truth.

Hello DontTypeLies,

You : "Well, it is about time that we understand that we have been indoctrinated. And it is also about time we are allowed to have our voice without been silenced by insults and name calling."

"One would think I am impolite or insulting only because they have difficulty handling a contrary point of view."

Moi : We all got our share of "impolite" and "insulting" terms hurled at us here. Contrary points of views are to be expected. What exactly do you want to say apart from giving us links? I won't call you an anti-semitic or an Islamophobe. Never called anyone those before, only to say someone is racist or sexist, or both.

"J"

Priver – thanks – quite an interesting study, but not exactly what we were talking about. This study is religion vs. science, not religion vs. lack of evidence for the central “facts” (e.g., Exodus) of the religion. When I was a believer, science was no problem for me at all. I accepted and respected science, including evolution. No scientific breakthrough would have affected my faith. Religion and science were separate and unrelated in my mind. Wacky, looking back on it, but I guess that’s what “faith” is all about – and I was taught faith at an early age as a Roman Catholic.

Arminius – Salutations! I’d like to see your study too. Regarding your end-of-the-world story from the 1840’s – yes – it sounds familiar, but I can’t place the actual name of the prophet. I do recall they dubbed the non-event “The Great Disappointment” and recalculated the date, which was, needless to say, another great disappointment.

Also, you say: “there is no historical evidence of Buddha. Oddly enough, no one seems to care. Apparently the late lamented Jesus is the target of choice.....”

There are major difference between Buddha and Jesus - Buddha isn’t worshipped as a God, didn’t claim any supernatural feats and Buddhism doesn’t offer eternal life. Buddhism is a practice, a way of living. Who cares if we know exactly who devised it? I also don’t care if a guy named William Shakespeare actually wrote Shakespeare’s play (there’s no evidence) or if they were really written by the 17th Earl of Oxford (as is widely speculated). We still have the plays and that’s what’s important.

I’d be perfectly happy if people just wanted to follow the teachings of Jesus (the good ones) and dropped all the "worship" and the supernatural stuff and the son of God stuff and the miraculous birth and resurrection narrative, so much of which is obviously borrowed from earlier mythical gods and has no historical basis.

Sorry about the misposting above. I still need to learn more about computers as my age!

I meant to post this peice of information from the leftist Washington Post itself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121001633_Comments.html

One would think I am impolite or insulting only because they have difficulty handling a contrary point of view.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121001633_Comments.html

Well, it is about time that we understand that we have been indoctrinated. And it is also about time we are allowed to have our voice without been silenced by insults and name calling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121001633_Comments.html

Perhaps the reactions, including mine, to DontTypeLies' first post here is a bit harsh compared to what Mr. Arun Gandhi wrote in response to the question by WaPo/On Faith:

"We know what "Jewish identity" has meant in the past. What will it mean in the future? How does a minority religion retain its roots and embrace change?"

DontTypeLies's first post stated:

"It is very rude for Jews to come to America (the first country to accept them) as a previous poster wrote....and then bully the Christians (the very people who allowed them to immigrate and be rescued by Hitler).

It is just plain bad manners."

We now know that members of his/her family were also in concentration camps in Asia and Europe during World War II.

So, it would seem that there are other groups send to the concentration camps by the Nazis due to their race, religion or opposition to the Nazis, and we are forgetting them with the focus on the Shoah.

So, it would seem that some are puzzled or angered or frustrated because it is not Americans who perpetrated the Holocaust, but is now the country that produced the most literature, programmes and high number of museums on the Holocaust and Americans consequently becoming the people that are the most reminded of the Holocaust in the world.

So, it would seem that the Jews are seen to be reminding too much on their plight as a persecuted people and it is Americans and the United States that offered and given Jews the most and best opportunity in the world.

Perhaps, if I am a Jew, a member of a minority in every country of the world but Israel, I would never trust any government or people, and will continue to support Israel as an "insurance", a refuge of last resort from persecution and discrimination by other countries and people.

Perhaps, during Seder, I will read and remember that in every generation, there will arise a new enemy of my people and will be ever vigilant of "enemies".

I don't have a real idea on the relationship between Americans of Jewish descent, or is Jewish Americans or is American Jews with other Americans.

A poster in Jacques Berlinerblau's thread following his essay on Jewish atheists alluded to the differences between being "Jewish" and being a "Jew". Thus being a "Jew" is implying a practicing Jew, but being Jewish is possibly alluding to secular and/or cultural Jews.

I am not too certain if being Jewish means acknowledging one's Jewish ancestors and heritage. Everyone from Meryl Streep to Christopher Hitchens publicly stated they have Jews or Jewish ancestors. I am not sure if that makes them Jewish.

Due to the history of the Jews, most whom I know seems to have their minds on the country they are citizens or residents of, but their hearts in Isreal. For or against the existence, or the domestic and international policies of Isreal is another matter. Of course they are angered when this state is called dual loyalty by others.

For some, it would seem that being Jewish is also being true to and supportive of Israel. For some, it is being true to their traditions and heritage.

I was perplexed by the passionate complexity and diversity of American Jews or Jewish Americans in discussing on their Jewishness and Jewish identity - how members of a minority race and religious group go about reconciling, adapting, adjusting and dealing with possible loss of "identity" in the majority culture.

We have multiple identities as a person in identifying ourself by race, religion, citizenship, values, political stance cultural heritage etc.

Everyone loses part or most of their cultural and religious heritage, even in relatively monocultural countries such as Japan, South Korea and China.

Religious and cultural heritage does not make an identity. Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali finds and have new identities.

The question is, why do some people fear losing an "identity" but not others?

Thanks and regards

"J"

E Fav,

Regarding the percentage of those who would still believe, in the face of evidence to the contrary: I recall, but have no references at hand, that it is more like 10 - 20%. There was a gigantic religious movement in, I think (someone correct me if I am wrong) in the 1840's, declaring the end of the world. Yup, yet another. But this one caught on - everybody had to sell their worldly possessions and go to a mountaintop. Needless to say, (1) some people made a huge profit buying this stuff, and (2) alas! the end of the world did not happen! But from this, and again, someone correct me if I am wrong, came Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and another group. Also pertinent is the much more recent evidence of still faithful followers of those evangelists who have been caught with their pants down.

So what would happen to me, a believer, if evidence overthrowing early Christianity were discovered? I don't know, except that I would still follow the moral teachings. Perhaps a parallel to Buddhism - there is no historical evidence of Buddha. Oddly enough, no one seems to care. Apparently the late lamented Jesus is the target of choice.....

With respect,

Arminius

donttypelies -

I usually associate nihilism with existentialism.
Do we have existentialists, so declared, on this forum?? You'll have to take a poll.

On the other hand, you might run into a few atheists here and there on this thread. Are they nihilists?? Do they believe life is without value, meaning, purpose?? Another poll - or are you equating nihilism with what you perceive as 'liberal left-leaning' tendencies among certain posters?

You'll have to define your terms more clearly if you're going to insult the opposition.

Hi E Fav: Here's a link to the story. It describes the findings of the study. I'm still looking for the study itself.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/578/when-science-and-faith-compete-faith-usually-wins

and I was a little off. It was 64%.. which is still astonishingly high for people in today's times.

I'd be curious to see how others would answer this, too.

DITDL,

Hmmm, you apparently don't read all the comments. My comment about the topic was the first submitted if you care to scroll back the page to see it. If you do not have the time for that "taxing" procedure, I reproduced it for you below:

The Jewish people must come to the realization that there are some significant flaws in their religion just as there are significant flaws in all religions. Once they accept and correct these flaws, then religious issues can be dealt with on a human scale vs. the current mythical "chosen people" scenario.

The 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the USA and their rabbis are well on their way as noted below:

From http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."

Dr. Charrow -

I find Kristol and Wolfowitz objectionable not because of their Jewishness, but because of their respective roles as war-mongering enablers and devoted supporters of the Bush regime. I try to ignore ethnic identities when it comes to politics, although admittedly it's sometimes difficult. Some folks have political agendas tied to ethnicity and that's a fact.

Love Bush and despise Carter as you will, we should live so long as to ever see Bush get a Nobel peace prize. Bush/Cheney mendacity has probably never been equalled in US government in modern times.

Kristol and Wolfowitz are mere pawns in the game.

Daniel ~

I am speaking to secular fundamentalists in their own language.

Have you ever noticed how quiet conservatives usually are? They don't want to get jumped on by nihilists whose attempt is not discussion, but attempts to destroy the truth.

Cheers.

Priver: "There was a study recently that was posted on here from the Pew Center that showed that if evidence disproving some aspect of their religion turned up in archeology or another of the physical sciences, something like 70-80% of people would STILL believe the religious teaching"

Can you easily point me to that study? I'd like to see it.

Also, if people here are interested in our little conversation -- I'd like their response to that question, or specifically this question: If respected academic studies confirmed evidence against some of the basic tenets of your religion and your pastor also supported the findings, would you still believe in the religious teaching?

I have to say that I am disappointed and saddened by the shallowness of this article and the responses (I disregard the animalistic anti-Semitic or Evangelical responses) - I am particularly struck by the parochial view of Judaism and the Jewish people that they represent. "American" Jews, to the extent that they exist, are not "Americans of Jewish persuasion", because Judaism is not a Theology or a Church, as these words are used by European bourgeois society. It is not a "faith"; but rather, the Jewish faith and religion, its practices and customs are only facets of Jewish peoplehood, and national identity - and even, as the Reconstructionists put it, Jewish civilization. Thus I, as a relatively non-religious Jew, am not less part of the Jewish people; and one separates from the Jewish people not only by having different "beliefs" - but by abandoning common culture and customs. Thus, American Jews who attempt to forge for themselves an "American" Jewish "identity" apart from their Jewish brothers - particularly, separated from the largest and most vital Jewish center in the world, Israel- are doomed to failure. Actually, much worse - they are doomed to being a farce.

As an American Jew living in Israel for more than 26 years, I can attest to the fact that I am thousands of times more Jewish, living in Israel, and having my children grow up here, than any "secular" American Jew - even though I attended more "services" in the US than I do here. Precisely because I participate in Jewish culture, Jewish customs and Jewish History - and not in "faith", "values" or Yiddish classes.

And, by the way - even the term "secular" is borrowed from late 18th and 19th century Christian Europe. It supposes a society composed of people who "believe", and their "religion" is based on being convinced by a set of suppositions, much like a political platform; and "secular" pepole are those who do not attend "Church". But "Judaism" is neither a "religion" nor a "faith" or a "church" and therefore there are not "secular" Jews; only Jews who follow less Jewish custom and lead a more or less Jewish life. And the less Jewish a life theu lead, the more they become "American" - the more they abandon our common peoplehood, civilization and culture. In this sense, Jewishness is a zero-sum game.

I have to say that I am disappointed and saddened by the shallowness of this article and the responses (I disregard the animalistic anti-Semitic or Evangelical responses) - I am particularly struck by the parochial view of Judaism and the Jewish people that they represent. "American" Jews, to the extent that they exist, are not "Americans of Jewish persuasion", because Judaism is not a Theology or a Church, as these words are used by European bourgeois society. It is not a "faith"; but rather, the Jewish faith and religion, its practices and customs are only facets of Jewish peoplehood, and national identity - and even, as the Reconstructionists put it, Jewish civilization. Thus I, as a relatively non-religious Jew, am not less part of the Jewish people; and one separates from the Jewish people not only by having different "beliefs" - but by abandoning common culture and customs. Thus, American Jews who attempt to forge for themselves an "American" Jewish "identity" apart from their Jewish brothers - particularly, separated from the largest and most vital Jewish center in the world, Israel- are doomed to failure. Actually, much worse - they are doomed to being a farce.

As an American Jew living in Israel for more than 26 years, I can attest to the fact that I am thousands of times more Jewish, living in Israel, and having my children grow up here, than any "secular" American Jew - even though I attended more "services" in the US than I do here. Precisely because I participate in Jewish culture, Jewish customs and Jewish History - and not in "faith", "values" or Yiddish classes.

And, by the way - even the term "secular" is borrowed from late 18th and 19th century Christian Europe. It supposes a society composed of people who "believe", and their "religion" is based on being convinced by a set of suppositions, much like a political platform; and "secular" pepole are those who do not attend "Church". But "Judaism" is neither a "religion" nor a "faith" or a "church" and therefore there are not "secular" Jews; only Jews who follow less Jewish custom and lead a more or less Jewish life. And the less Jewish a life theu lead, the more they become "American" - the more they abandon our common peoplehood, civilization and culture. In this sense, Jewishness is a zero-sum game.

The Jewish immigration in 1492.

Ottoman was at war with Spain at that time.
Beyazid II(1447-1512,his mother greek woman Cornelia/Gulbahar Khatun) had invited the jewish people to Ottoman land.But,later in the year of 1666,Sabbatai Zevi who was the founder of the Lewish Sabbatean,had been forced by Mehmed IV(Hunter,1648-1687,his mother was russian woman Nadia/Hadice Turan) *convert or die* and he had converted to islam.Where is the *tolerance* ?
This immigration shouldnt be magnified too much and it doesnt show and prove that the tolerance exists in islam.
Well-digger Murad Pasha had murdered,at least,100 or 150 thousand muslims people within four years.
The mother of the Conqueror Mehmed II was Serbian Despina.
The mother of the Lawgiver Suleiman was Polish jewish Helga.
The grandmother of Abdulhamid II(the great hakan-what he did.Did he win a battle before his army) was French woman Nakshidil.
The founder of the first islamic state umayyad's mother was the Livereater Cannibal Hint.

Ms. Jacoby's reference to "the despicable beliefs of people like William Kristol and Paul Wolfowitz" is in itself despicable. I would wager that she has very little understanding of these men's beliefs, and if she did understand them, she might still disagree with them, but she would find that thay are philosophies, much like her own, that are open to dispute, but are hardly "despicable."

Ms. Jacoby has fallen into the unfortunate left-wing habit of vilifying those she determines to be "right wing" rather than disagreeing with them in a civilized manner. Indeed, if she were to look objectively at the political and personal consequences brought on by left-wing political thinkers, she might find some equally "despicable" thinking and some pretty malicious, hypocritical, and and mendacious beliefs--those of Jimmy Carter, for one.

Finally, Ms. Jacoby should know that adjectives, and especially vituperative ones, detract from a writer's credibility.

E Fav:

I suspect you may be right about the complexity. It seems to me that faith should be about the message, not the claim to 'one ultimate truth' as proven by 'historical accuracies'.

There was a study recently that was posted on here from the Pew Center that showed that if evidence disproving some aspect of their religion turned up in archeology or another of the physical sciences, something like 70-80% of people would STILL believe the religious teaching.

Maybe that has something to do with it?

Priver: "I don't understand why. Is it because if this gets mentioned then what's to stop the questioning of the New Testament as 'historically accurate'?

I'd guess "yes," at the very least. The accuracy of the NT is already "questioned." Academically trained clergy know its not factual and that's it's even more difficult to find evidence for the NT than the OT (Jesus didn't knock down any cities or flee the Egyptian army). And the supernatural stuff is all a matter of faith and tradition.

I'm not exactly sure what's going on, but I think it's very complex.

Dear Victoria,

The founder/prophet of islam,The Bedouin Gamel Driver was circumcised as well.
How can we interpret this situation ?

Neocon subversion and treason plays directly into classic anti-semitic fears. Leo Strauss' political philosophy of subversion and tyranny is the epitome of evil and comparable to the Third Reich. Now, every common sense American Jew is stuck with this filthy legacy.

Do the Jews have a world wide conspiracy to control us all? Every person who hates Judaism will use the Neocons as the most visible example.

Neocon subversion and treason plays directly into classic anti-semitic fears. Leo Strauss' philosophy is the epitome of evil comparable to the Third Reich. Now, every common sense American Jew is stuck with this filthy legacy.

Don't Type Lies

Why do you insist that everyone else be polite? You are not.

Thank you Anon.

Well, I could go into alot because some of my family members were in European concentration camps and some were in Asian concentration camps.
I just think that we have to be thankful to those kind Americans who let our families start our lives over again and give us opportunities that we could not have asked for more.

Let us be polite with them and respect them. They will be polite back as I have found.

Did we forget how to be grateful? Or are we demanding and spoiled?

People are not stupid.....they can see what is inside of us without us uttering a word. They see by our actions.

Just some food for thought....

Donttypelies,

I fully understand your reluctance to share such a personal experience. What little you've disclosed helps me to more understand where you are coming from. I am of German descent, and the last of my direct ancestors arrived in the US in 1939. A lot of my more distant relations didn't fare as well.

CDKatz, you are correct.

Conservatives are liberals who have not been mugged yet.

WHY IS IT THAT COLUMNS ABOUT JEWS ARE ALWAYS
INTENSELY UGLY?

Oh wait. Oxymoron. The subject itself.

No. I have many Jewish friends who understand very well because they listen and I have great friendships with them. It is a problem of the leftist Jews who won't be quiet long enough to listen closely to other points of view and learn something they hadn't thought of before.

My family suffered alot, I could tell stories for days and days about it but it would be very depressing and would bring back wounds that I do not wish to revisit on a message board with strangers who probably would use my honesty against me and throw my experiences back in my face..... it is too much to revisit.

However, I do wish to point out that there were many brave people who helped the Jews in Europe, even to the point of being interned in the camps themselves...and we are also witnesses.

I have a great friendship with many humble and kind Jews who know their friends...

1. Whatever makes the author think that Americans don't know that it was the jewish neocons who tricked us into war with Iraq.
And bleat for bombing Iran. They were not in league with Christians...they were working for Israel.

and 2. God, is anyone else as SICK of the subject of jews and jewishness as we are? And FYI, being American means assimilating. Period. Immigrants are immigrants.

Thanks for the answer, Donttypelies. How unfortunate for your family. Do you think this could have negatively influenced how you regard American Jews?

the author does not understand the origins (as I understand it) of the neoconservative movement. neoconservatives were former liberals who recognized the folly and inherent weakness of the liberal foreign policies of such illuminaries such as jimmy carter as well as some of sen. obama's advisers. if left to the devices of a liberal foreign policy we'd be attacked all over the globe and fail to respond. did I just identify the clinton's abysmal record of responding to terrorism? if left to the devices of a liberal foreign policy we would cut adrift an ally and leave his country in the hands of madmen who threaten to blow up other soverign countries. did I just mention Iran?
history, when it's written, will find the neoconservatives were right.

Would you elaborate on why you think Jews criticize one another when they deviate from the party line (For example,when Jews question Israel's policies)? It seems like they are being bullied into keeping their views quiet. Do you think there will ever come a time when Jews can openly discuss their different views with one another without being labeled a "bad Jew"

Thank you for your interesting article,
Sally

Yes Anon.

Donttypelies,

You mentioned earlier that your family is not Jewish, but did help the Jews in Europe. Is that why they were put into camps?

Anonymous, typical of leftist rhetoric. I bet you were not there in the camps of Aushwitz were you? You saw and heard nothing with your own eyes.

When leftists can not engage in intellectual argument, they resort to accusations and name calling.

I don't believe people who speculate. I believe my own eyes and ears.

Feel free to throw insults and name call and speculate on what went wrong. In order understand history, history must be under scrutiny and should not exclude a particular point of view or exclude certain facts which do not corroborate the opinion of the status quo.

It seems to me that the only acceptable intellectual discourse with the left is to agree with them or be silenced by threats and intimidation. As long as it is soft and fuzzy and vague -- it is acceptable.

We already know that the educators in the west have indoctrinated our students with a biased view of history. We also know that other points of view are not acceptable.
However, I would like to exercise my first amendment which the left so vehemently promotes, except for people who do not agree with them.

Again, my whole family was in the concentration camps and have our own analogy to what happened and how it all happened.

Anonymous, typical of leftist rhetoric. I bet you were not there in the camps of Aushwitz were you? You saw and heard nothing with your own eyes.

When leftists can not engage in intellectual argument, they resort to accusations and name calling.

I don't believe people who speculate. I believe my own eyes and ears.

Feel free to throw insults and name call and speculate on what went wrong. In order understand history, history must be under scrutiny and should not exclude a particular point of view or exclude certain facts which do not corroborate the opinion of the status quo.

It seems to me that the only acceptable intellectual discourse with the left is to agree with them or be silenced by threats and intimidation. As long as it is soft and fuzzy and vague -- it is acceptable.

We already know that the educators in the west have indoctrinated our students with a biased totalitarian view of history. We also know that other points of view are not acceptable.
However, I would like to exercise my first amendment which the left so vehemently promotes, except for people who do not agree with them.

Again, my whole family was in the concentration camps and have our own analogy to what happened and how it all happened.

Hi E Fav: You wrote:

"However, the "mainline" Christian denominations get a good academic education about biblical archaeology, so their clergy has also learned that Exodus, and other Bible stories are not factual. But they don’t talk about it in sermons and will even imply that the opposite."

From the discussions that I've had with Christians willing to take a look at issues like this (and I wish there were more of them) I've noticed the same thing happening. I don't understand why. Is it because if this gets mentioned then what's to stop the questioning of the New Testament as 'historically accurate'? Jews have done this with the Old Testament for centuries. And if they're looking for faith, there's plenty there.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand why it couldn't be ALL myth that we are supposed to work a bit harder to understand the messages contained within. If that's what one looks for in such a collection of stories, then there's plenty of wisdom to be found there. Enough that could reinforce one's faith in God or even Jesus without the need to prove such stories actually happened.

I just got to the point where I stepped back and said 'why ONLY that book?' Why not the writings of philosophers or folks like Aesop or the Bards or other people who have an insight on the human condition? Why is the word 'myth' a bad thing?

donttypelies -

What a monstrously arrogant synopsis of the Holocaust - docile 'liberal' Jews innocently marched off to the showers to be gassed while your stalwart (non-Jewish) conservative grandfather led the underground resistance movement. Aren't you the lucky one??

And you inherited his 'conservative' genetic endowment? That much appears to be true anyway.

Keep voting for Bush and his clones by all means.....your next chance will probably be McCain, a man totally bereft of character. Good luck with that.

As for the rest, you'd best follow your own advice and - stoptypinglies

For CCNL

Since you never seem to want to comment on the topic at hand, I will engage you on your only interest, "deflawing" the Koran.

I am not a Muslim. I have held a Koran in my hand and scanned through it, but I am not very familiar with what is in it. I think of Christianity and Islam as being mirror religions, so, therefore, without knowing much about the Koran, I think of it as a mirror to the Christian Bible. It is my impression that Muslims regard the Koran in a similar way that Christians regard the Bible.

Both are antiquated religious text. They are literature. It does not make sense to say that the Koran is flawed. Literature is literature; you read it and take what you get, whether you like or agree with it, or not. Your problem seems to be more with the way in which the Koran is regarded, than with any specific flaws in it.

In your distress over this, you should try and understand that you cannot control anyone but yourself. Least of all can you control the thoughts of other people. If Muslims, as a mass-movement, begin to regard the Koran differently, and with a more modern interpretation of things in it, it cannot be because of any single person such as yourself. It would just happen, as events in the world, change and mutate, and as the Islamic parts of the world evolve and progress. Mass social phenomena just happen, like Springtime happens, like growing up, maturing and growing old happen; no single person or individual, by the force of his own will, cause to be such a massive change in relgion as you seek.

But suppose, for a moment, that the Koran does have specific flaws in it, which you wish to correct. To whom shall you address your complaints? Who is in charge of the Koran? Is there a special international agenccy of Koran correctness? Or is there a dominant relgious leader who controls the printing and production of Korans? Why don't you take up your complaints with this agency, or with this person, if you could ever identify a valid person to write to? Or better yet, why don't you come out with your own deflawed and perfected version of the Koran?

If you decided to do this, it would take a very long time, and be a lot of work, probably a lifetime of work, and I am not sure that it would have any more effect than the things you repeatedly type here.

Mad Dog,

Since when is identifying the flaws in religions, a means of bringing about fear and hatred???

In response to Alan:

I was matching your condescention. Is it your belief that there is no such thing as a cultural Jew? You seem to have a problem with Jacoby's "postmodern" thinking. Do you believe we are not a postmodern society in need of a new way of thinking and defining? I fully understand the basic need to define who we are, and that definition requires set tenets. As new identities emerge and society changes, do these tenets stay the same?

"If it is up to everyone to decide what constitutes identity, then who is right? We all cannot be right and practice completely and contradicting things"

We can all be right in what we define ourselves as. Yes, there can be Jewish Pagans. Who are we to say otherwise?

I was matching your condescention. Is it your belief that there is no such thing as a cultural Jew? You seem to have a problem with Jacoby's "postmodern" thinking. Do you believe we are not a postmodern society in need of a new way of thinking and defining? I fully understand the basic need to define who we are, and that definition requires set tenets. As new identities emerge and society changes, do these tenets stay the same?

"If it is up to everyone to decide what constitutes identity, then who is right? We all cannot be right and practice completely and contradicting things"

We can all be right in what we define ourselves as. Yes, there can be Jewish Pagans. Who are we to say otherwise?

Anon,

It is interesting that you speak of what is helpful or not helpful, when you use statements that are clear condescending... way to keep to your principles. Again, I am speaking to the general idea that that post modernity has change the way we use terms. Just because I say "I am a Canadian or I am Serbian ", does not make me either of those things. I was speaking to the idea of what makes anyone assume a basic identity. Yes, it is up to every person to decide if they are Jewish, but they have to follow that up with some accept practices, beliefs, and traditions -- just like any other adherence to any ideology or religion. I could clam I am Jewish and practice paganism. Does that make me Jewish? No. If it is up to everyone to decide what constitutes identity, then who is right? We all cannot be right and practice completely and contradicting things. Its matter of the believing in essential tenets versus the unessential.

Alan,

Yes, it's very helpful to have a non-Jew tell the entire Jewish population they can either feel this way, or this other way, and nothing else.

I think Susan's right in her statement that it's up to any particular Jew to define who he or she is.

Hi, Priver –I agree, It also seems to me that the Jewish "denomination" is not pushing historical accuracy. Especially in comparison to Christian fundamentalist, who preach biblical inerrancy However, the "mainline" Christian denominations get a good academic education about biblical archaeology, so their clergy has also learned that Exodus, and other Bible stories are not factual. But they don’t talk about it in sermons and will even imply that the opposite.

I know – I’ve been listening. I confronted one Episcopal priest who started out suggesting that there were other views on that, but backed down and quietly conceded when I outlined the evidence of Tel Aviv U scholar, Israel Finkelstein - including lack of evidence for Exodus and an abundance of evidence that the Israelites coexisted with the Canaanites in Canaan and were essentially the same people.

Later, I asked a seminary professor (who of course is familiar with the evidence) why the priest would have tried to mislead me, knowing I already had the correct information. He conjectured that the priest initially responded in his accustomed pastoral role, assuming that I wanted to be comforted back into believing the old bible story, not that I expected academic confirmation of the facts.

This is the kind of unhelpful postmodern thinking that muddles religion and history. I am not Jewish, but having studied Jewish history, I know that the basic identity of a Jew (apart from being born of a Jewish mother) is to follow the teachings of the Torah and believe that the Lord our God is One. When we start talking about "it is up to every ______ to decide" rhetoric, it leads to the crumbling of the identity of any religion or ethnicity. Either you are a Jew or you are not. There is no middle ground.

Anonymous. You are correct. It all comes down to beliefs (politics). The liberal Jews were led into the gas chambers in Nazi Germany because they believed they were going to take showers.

My grandfather lead an underground movement to fight Hitler. He was conservative.

Hi E Favorite,

As far as the Exodus story goes, I remain fairly agnostic about it. I haven't found any convincing evidence that supports it any more than I've found any evidence that supports many of the other stories. From what I know of other Jews, There's less a rush to prove some sort of 'historical accuracy' than there is in other denominations.

Not to say that it may not exist, though I've never encountered it, but that there's less an emphasis on historicity and more a search for deeper meaning. At least that's been my experience.

The thing that I think I've gotten out of my Jewish upbringing is a healthy ability to critique and debate any text in front of me, with a healthy dose of skepticism, particularly about the whole 'chosen people' thing.

donttypelies -

If your aforementioned list of Bush supporters & apologists, white collar crooks, certified raging maniacs and architects of the Iraq war are your idea of 'kind' Jews, it's possible you need to review the definitions of kindness and good manners. Just kidding I hope???

BTW your sense of what happened to those placid Native Americans needs some historical review as well. Walked all over?? More like stomped all over. They didn't go into that dark night willingly.

As an example of heterogeneity among secular Jewish populations, my guess is that there are secular Jews both here and in Israel that are divided on the issue of the Iraq war.

Those Jews in the USA of a conservative, republican bent are very probably extremely supportive of the Iraq war efforts (your friend Wolfowitz et al) - on the other hand, those of a liberal political persuasion are on the other side of the issue. So maybe it comes down to politics, rather than ethnic identity after all?!

Mike - you're volunteered to lead the KKK discussion. You seem to have the right attitude.

CCNL-
Your "error" is in having nothing to offer besides fear and hatred to a world that is already up to the neck in fear and hatred, making you part of the problem that you probably think you are trying to solve.

Victoria aka OBG,

You are living in the distant past. I don't see the contemporary Turkey inviting Jews to settle in their country today. Nor do I see their support for the State of Israel. I wonder how they voted in the UN in 1948 for the establishment of said state??? BTW, they have a hard enough time living with their fellow Islamics, the Kurds.

And how goes that report on "pretty wingie thingies"? And the report on Islam being based on the hallucinations of a warmongering, womanizing, illiterate Arab?????

its not historically contested by anyone- jewish people or otherwise, but i figured concerned the disconnected would start making crazy revisionist statements because thats just what he does.

and no matter what nonsense he spouts today (anytime he sees any good coming from islam it makes him mental)

while the world tormented and persecuted jewish people, the turks went out of their way to invite them to safety which lasted for centuries.

the US has welcomed jewish people but ms jacobs possibly isnt aware that during the spanish inquisition,the ottoman turks invited the jewish people to turkey to live in peace and prosperity, which they did for more than 400 years.

ataturk, the father of turkey, had roots of the the jewish sabetais.

so, any possible revisionist claims of oppression didnt exist there.

not only from spain and portugal, but from all over europe they were offered sanctuary to avoid persecution by the christians.
they were vizers (advisors to the sultan- the highest postion attainable) and well educated and included in all aspects of society.

historically, credit should be given where it is due.

the jewish virtual library has many interesting articles about their own history.
peace

Mad Love,

Been there done that but it was during the Cold War. And where is my description of Islam in error??

CCNL, are you aware that the military is in need of volunteers? I'm sure that within a few months the government could have you over in the Middle East with an automatic weapon where you could kill Muslims till your heart is contented. You might find that a more satisfying outlet for your hatred than waging a petulant war of words from your computer.

Well I see The Obfuscating Jihadist continues to avoid her situation.

To wit:

Her comment, - "I identify myself as Muslim (as a member of a religious group living in accordance with the faith's tenets."

It should have read, " I was bred, born, and brainwashed as a Muslim (a member of a religious group containing subcults like The Assassins- see Wikipedia for a complete list of Muslim subcults). Islamics, as some call us, follow the hallucinations of a warmongering, womanizing, illiterate Arab who "saw and talked to" a "pretty wingie thingie" named Gabriel, Allah's rep, in a Saudi cave almost 1400 years ago. Our holy book, the militaristic koran, contains many flaws and until they are corrected, no one is safe.

Hello Dontypelies,

Thanks for reminding I also identify myself as "Jihadist" in my handle here.

I'm sorry to hear about your family being in concentration camps during WW II. I know the Nazis also sent others besides Jews to concentration camps. I very much would like to know why your family was sent if you don't mind sharing with us here. If if brings back memories you'd rather not recall, we can leave it at that.

Thanks and regards

"J"

Priver: "I was taught that all the biblical stories are myth, to be recognized as such, and to gain insights on the nature of people"

I'm glad to hear it. I wonder how common that is. I have a Jewish friend who doesn't believe in God, but has a hard time accepting that Exodus didn't happen. The first time she heard it was from me. I told another Jewish acquaintance, after establishing that he wasn't religious, and he flat out didn't believe me. I sent him the NY Times article and he said he didn't have time to read it. I asked him again and he said at his age there were a lot of things he wasn't interested in knowing.

I was taught that all the biblical stories are myth, to be recognized as such, and to gain insights on the nature of people, not taking such things as the 'chosen people' so seriously.

I think you'll find that in a lot of Reform denominations.

DontTypeLies - It's Ms. Jihadist.

Daniel Katzman: “I think it is fantastic that a major Jewish organization is recognizing that major portions of the bible is simply false.”

Me too – I just wish they’d spread the word a bit more. It’s in their prayer book, but the conservative Jews I’ve spoken to don’t know about it – no one at temple has told them and they’re not about to believe it from me. Seems to me, they actually do not want to know –they just want to drift along with the myth. This applies to Christians as well, of course, because if there’s no Moses, where does the Messiah fit in?

By the way, Karen Armstrong, respected ancient historian (author of “History of God) has a new book out, “The bible” in which she also mentions that Exodus is “not historical.” Also Eric Cline, George Washington U professor of archeology and ancient history says the same thing in his recently published book “From Eden to Exile.” He provides scholarly information on seven stories from the old testament. He calls them “mysteries” and sometimes mythological, because they are so lacking in archeological evidence.

So slowly and surely the word is getting out – but only if you read the right books. Someday, maybe people will hear it from the pulpit, or read it on the front page of the newspapers. It is pretty big news, after all.

Mr. Jihadist

You forgot to mention that you also identify yourself as a Jihadist.

By the way Ms. Jacoby. My family were in the concentration camps in World War II as well. I am extremely educated about this issue and have done my homework.

I just chose to be thankful to the US and the people who took us in and gave us a chance at a better life when no one else did. The atrocities that were committed by Emporer Hirohito and Adolph Hitler was not the fault of the Americans, nor the fault of Christians. It was the fault of the tyranny of 2 despot leaders at that period in time.

Micheal Savage and Micheal Medved along with Paul Wolfowitz and David Horowitz are among many kind Jews who do show their manners.

:-)

Ms. Jacoby. Throwing pot shots and calling people names does not cancel bad manners. Bad manners are bad manners. I am an immigrant to the US myself and my family came here on a ship with almost 800 Jews in the late 50's. We were the only persecuted non Jewish family.

I decided to respect the people who allowed my family into their country albeit a little later than we wanted to come here. The Christians of the US owes no one anything except the native american indians. They are kind people who let people walk all over them.

Let us show them our appreciation and use our manners towards them. For they have been kind to us.

Donttypelies:)

Hello. We meet again. So, now we know - you don't like Muslims, Jews, atheists, pagans. I miss any other group on your list?

Come, pick on someone bigger in numbers than Jews or Pagans, say Muslims, your other favourite target group. Call us all terrorists, and vile and the bile of the earth all you want. I don't mind even some Jewish writers calling Islam and Muslims the greatest threat to Judeo-Christian heritage and civilisation.

We don't mind being said to have hooked noses and webbed feet. We can hang things from our noses. Very practical. And webbed feet makes us great swimmers. But you can't see that with all the beards Muslim men wear, and the hijabs worn by Muslim women.

Oh come on, vent against us. I'm sure you'll feel much better.

Surely you are not confusing "identity" with "heritage". There is a differerence in acknowledging one's ethnic or religious heritage and the self-identified identity of one as a member of a cultural, ethnic or religious group.

On identity:

- I identify myself as Malaysian (as a citizen of a country and living by its Constitution)

- I identify myself as Muslim (as a member of a religious group living in accordance with the faith's tenets)

- I identify myself as Malay (as a member of an ethnic group inheriting and continuing Malay culture and traditions)

Never mind my cultural, ethnic and religious heritage as well as citizenship is more complicated than Tiger Woods and Obama Barack combined.

End of 101 on "identity" as I understood it. One can have multiple sectorised identities, but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, no?

But of course, in identifying oneself as a citizen of a country, a religious or ethnic group does not make one personally responsible and accountable for the words and actions of one's fellow citizens, religious and ethnic group as Ms. Jacoby stated.

Is misdirected anger productive? Always so easy and convenient to bash against whoever is immediately around and avaible eh? The point being?

"J"

Thank you Susan, for the mention of the Neocons like Wolfowitz and Kristol. All of the Jews I know reacted with surprise at the neocon's actions being taken by some to be 'the great Jewish conspiracy'.

I suspect also that their neoconservatism supplanted whatever religious practice they had, given the 'with us or against us' attitude prevailing in the government at the time.

My issue with this is a personal one, too. For me the closest I get to a 'Jewish identity' is when I'm around my family, and we're eating some traditional Jewish cooking. Beyond that, there was no real religious practice in our house.

When I started my search for my religious home, I asked myself a variant of the question posed today, which was 'If anti-Semitism disappeared tomorrow, and the Jews no longer had to fight for their own existence, what then would it mean to be Jewish in today's times?

And I couldn't answer that. When I found my spiritual home in Paganism I realized that I was learning about my Jewish past in ways I never understood before, and it made me very proud of where I came from.

You're absolutely right about there not really being 'one' Jewish identity. So many people equate Jews in America with Israeli actions. I've disagreed with Israel's policies before and have been called a 'self-hating Jew' (whatever THAT means) for it.

Jews, like any group of people with shared traditions and culture, are not all the same.

Who cares what Jacoby thinks? She is a Christian-hating bigot and like all bigots, she should be ignored.

When is the Post going to have an "OnRace" section and turn it over to a KKK leader. That would be a nice corrolary to what we have here.

Nominally I was raised a Jew. Early (for some reason) I had the idea that people should be respected for what they do, not for what they are. Thus, I became an outsider to an outsider group,
but I think of my self as a Jew. This allows one to observe, with possible objectiveness, both the people outside your group and also your group. This, along with a history of intellectual pursuits (forced on it by those outside your group), allows development of a humanistic view. That, along with a history of survival, brings the idea that you have a better chance of survival if other outside groups also can survive. ( You also learn, given what homo sapiens are, to keep your emotional bags packed.) All this having been said, I have a story of God and Creation that better fits history: God created the Heavens and the Earth and seeing what he had done, He got bored and went off to something more interesting. Thus, only we are responsible for our acts; And if there is to be some good in this world, only we can make it come about.

Susan Jacoby:

Good for you! And absolutely correct you are, both in your history and calling out the bigot. You are the only essayist with On Faith, so far as I know, that troubles to read the replies and comment on them. Thanks, that really means something.

I think it is fantastic that a major Jewish organization is recognizing that major portions of the bible is simply false. If we can live to see other major religions make the same progress, the world will be a better place. If Christians realize that the Jesus story is essentially a rewite of the earlier Hercules story and if Muslims can admit that the written language of the Koran was developed generations after the Prophet's death, we have a much better chance of ending the religious wars that so plague our world.

M Adrianna

I'm not even sure where to start.

The short version: your comment reads like a "prophecy," a divine revelation and positive-proof that the God-of-All-Creation has always and still favors a few (now fairly loosely defined) individuals among the many billions, and has retained for them the Holy Land of Israel, a small patch of desert within which is a ceaseless bloodbath that has not had a season's worth of peace since it's existance-- and your take on all this is "G-d" will continue to support and nourish his "chosen."

Your words:
"Here is the future of the ______ People, and as they have done for ______ millenium, they will--however small their numbers become--continue to survive and continue their ancestral legacy."

Fill in the blanks. It works for many nationalities and people all over the world.

I hope you continue to read within the dialogues of "on faith," specifically the Jewish Rabbis and their posts. Your pride in your "identity," or "heritage" or "ancestry," in the way that you've posted, is nothing short of ill-informed--the people who have come to aid the Jewish people have done so because the Jewish people are human beings, not because they are the "chosen." You might consider that before you post about how "God" has destroyed all the enemies of the "chosen." I don't imagine that many of the soldiers of WWII considered themselves God's workhorses to deliver his "chosen."

If you are very intent about being among the "chosen," you might watch during some spare time "Fiddler on the Roof," especially where Tevye pleads with God "...can't You for once, choose someone else?" I think he appreciated the irony more than you do.

A posting by someone who signs in as DONTTYPELIES
embodies the sort of ignorance and bigotry that shows that anti-Semitism is alive and well, and I will not let it pass. This blogger says it is "very rude" of Jews to come to America and "bully" Christians, given that Christians "allowed" Jews to immigrate and be rescued from Hitler.

In fact, the refusal of the United States to allow terrified Jews to immigrate during the 1930s is a horrible blot on America's record. Social anti-Semitism was at its height during the 1930s, and Jews who were desperate to escape Hitler perished because America would not relax its immigration policies. Only after the Holocaust did America finally allow the remnants of European Jewry to seek refuge in America.

I suggest that you go to the library and read a few books, begining with David Wyman's "The Abandonment of the Jews," to correct your vast ignorance about this subject.

For Someone's eyes only,

"Probably" in the following, "Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed", was from the referenced article:

New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) 1775 words

With respect to the flaws in our religion i.e. Christianity, they have been slowly identified and addressed over the past 200 years.

A synopsis:

1. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

2. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The Jewish People have survived for over three thousand years.

(The earliest reference to Israel is from the funery stela of the Egyptian Pharoah Merneptah, now in the Cairo Museum, which dates to 1209 B.C.)

All other empires that persecuted the Jews, from the Arameans to the Moabites, from the Babylonians to the Assyrians to the Selucids, from the Romans to the Spanish Inquisition to the Nazis to Communists, have fallen.

Yet the Jewish People are still here.

Yes, they are very tiny: there are only 13.2 million Jews in the world, compared to 1.7 Billion Muslims and 2 Billion Christians. However, I believe they will continue to survive.

Today, every Jew by birth that is alive is not only a descendent of the people of ancient Israel, but a descendent of those who survived great persecution and pressure to convert over countless centuries.

This is a great privilage and an incredible legacy.

Yet, today many Jews are ignorant of their own heritage, from the Hebrew Bible itself to the archaeology of Israel, from the Dead Sea Scrolls to the great works of the Rabbinic Era.

Thus, in this country and others they are intermarrying, turning away from the sacrifices of their ancestors and casting out this heritage.

Pressured by societies that still hold true to the ideas of Replacement Theology--the theology that the Church, or the Islamic Ummah, has replaced the Jewish People as G-d's choosen--they often want to assimilate into the maintstream.

Without the knowledge of their history they cannot understand the religious roots of Replacement Theology and how it evolved into anti-Judaism and then anti-Semitism. They simply, and tragically, internalize it.

So, will the Jewish People disappear over time?

No, it cannot be a coincidence that after 2,000 years of Exile the Jews have returned to their ancestral homeland to build a state, as it was predicted by Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Here is the future of the Jewish People, and as they have done for three millenium, they will--however small their numbers become--continue to survive and continue their ancestral legacy.

It is very rude for Jews to come to America (the first country to accept them) as a previous poster wrote....and then bully the Christians (the very people who allowed them to immigrate and be rescued by Hitler).

It is just plain bad manners.

Tom:
"My comment to her was if Christ did return (say he floated down from the heavens on a silver cloud) and restored the peaceable kingdom, wouldn't she convert?"

If Jesus came back to this Earth, would he still be Jewish?

Mike

Susan, I'm a card carrying Episcopal but have all sorts of Jewish roots and connections. My Grandfather was Jewish. On my more equally Episcopal wife's side these roots go back to Dachau: every living member of my children's great grandfather's family perished in the camps excepting himself and 2 siblings and he spent over two years in a forced Nazi labor camp before escaping to England. So maybe I have a little standing to comment.

I was discussing with an observantly Jewish friend the issue of conservative Christians praying for Jewish conversion to Christianity. Especially as it related to Christ's return and final days. She and her husband took offense as you suggest Michael Medved should. My comment to her was if Christ did return (say he floated down from the heavens on a silver cloud) and restored the peaceable kingdom, wouldn't she convert?

She really said nothing but I'm afraid I offended her. The question was not serious, meant merely to point out the unlikely nature of the event in question. But if it happened, who wouldn't convert?

Let me put this somewhat differently, if we Christians have it all wrong and the messiah (the REAL son or daughter of God) appears and restores the peaceable kingdom, I would convert.

Would you?

Exactly, Susan, what is so wrong with people from any faith tradition praying for others with respect and love? Praying for oneness with God as one understands God. Is that a bad thing?

The part of all this that I think you sometimes miss is that no single person can really say what is absolutely right or wrong for another. I have no contest with your atheism (it seems empty to me, but if it works for you that's good). My question to you, is can you say the same about my Episcopalianism? If you can't, exactly who or what made you arbiter of that whis is good and that which is not?

If Jesus or a true Messiah came down from heaven and restores peace and love, would you convert?

Peace.

Ms. Jacoby: you raise some very interesting points in your essay. as one who was raised in an observant Jewish family I still identify as a Jew, even though I do not practice the religion in a way that other Jews would identify as authentic. yet, because a Jewish identity is so strong, my Pagan/Earth-based spiritual path is heavily influenced by the traditions and rituals of my upbringing.

to be a Jew anywhere, even here in 'good old God save America' (quoting Joni Mitchell), is to be an outsider. the truth is that everyone at some point has the experience of being an outsider. but I had the liberty of being raised in a culture of being on the outside. being different from the surrounding tribes was a major factor influencing the rituals of daily living, including the laws of Kosher. Jewish identity is based on being separate. the Hebrew word for Holy literally means separate.

being raised as an 'other' made it much easier for me to acknowledge and incorporate my emerging identity as a gay man when I was in college (an identity that I did not choose). most gay people have to deal with being a minority raised in a majority family. African Americans face racism, but they have a family that prepares them for that racism. straight parents can not fully prepare a gay child for life in a homophobic society - they may even actively participate in the homophobia. my parents did not prepare me to deal with homophobia specifically, but I was raised with skills and tools that made being different more managable.

when it came time for me to embrace my spiritual calling and follow a Pagan path (an identity I approached with some choice involved), my Jewish upbringing again helped provide me with direction. as stated above, I practice in a Jewish way. I am a monotheistic Pagan. I do not reclaim the pre-Christian symbols coopted by the church - they are far too Christianized for my tastes. but I am able to choose appropriate Jewish ritual and symbols and redefine them for use in an Earth-based practice.

one interesting aspect of Jewish traditon - the title of your essay may also apply to the Jewish understanding of God. while daily practice is certainly defined in Jewish tradition, the understanding of God is not. each individual must form their own. I know a number of practicing Jews who also hold atheistic beliefs.

Well, he is into the Jesus Seminar and liberal theology lock , stock and barrel.

Rejecting the Bible as not inspired is .... not very inspiring.. and erroneous.

CCNL

By the use of the word "probably," I will concur that this is your opinion, and you have no hard evidence to support it. If there was indisputable evidence to support this claim, then it would be a fact, and not an opinion, and people would have no excuse for arguing over it. You simply cannot PROVE the Jewish religion false by what you feel and what you think. I am not Jewish. I'm actually a born again, blood bought, Bible believing Christian, and could not be happier. A Jew and I are exact opposites, other than the fact that we believe in God, but it bothers me that people think they can prove something wrong by their feelings and their emotions and their opinions. Every religion has its flaws, and could improve. I, as a Christian, KNOW that it is impossible to be like my Lord as Savior Jesus Christ. can I improve? YES. So do I have flaws? Absolutely! But, my friend, so does liberation...you are no more flawless then a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, etc. So stop acting so self-righteous.

The Jewish people must come to the realization that there are some significant flaws in their religion just as there are significant flaws in all religions. Once they accept and correct these flaws, then religious issues can be dealt with on a human scale vs. the current mythical "chosen people" scenario.

The 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the USA and their rabbis are well on their way as noted below:

From http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

"New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. "