Thanksgiving Proclamations: Cracks In The Wall Of Separation

What gives everybody the idea that the US Thanksgiving is a church holiday? Surely the native Americans who attended did not belong to any European church. I believe Thanksgiving has been snatched from secular traditions by the acts of prosyletizing Christians who believe everything valuable has to belong to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

DAnielinthelionsden,

You should not be surprised that people of the fundamentalist religious bent take Harry Potter so seriously. They take a single, not particularly accurate, translation of the Bible as literal truth even more seriously and on no more evidence. At least Harry Potter readers haven't burned anyone at the stake for disagreeing with them.

Shawn Cromett

Susan Jacoby: “ I've read Margot Adler's book.”

There’s a term that keeps coming up in my head, can’t shake it loose. “Postmodern Mystic”, you can acronyminize it into “PMM,”—kinda close to “P.M.S.” and like P.M.S. it is something that just takes you over, a force you really can’t contain. That explosion of books on feminism in the 70’s and 80’s is part of the bigger wave of re-emerging consciousness of feminine power as she resides in all these old and previously buried Goddesses that have re-emerged in our—yours as well, Ms. Jacoby—time. To a certain extent Feminism shook loose Wicca, like an apple out of a tree. I’d have to point to Susan Griffin’s “Woman and Nature: The Roaring Inside Her” marrying Wiccan notions to postmodernist framing devices such as pastiche and historical revisionism and on top of that it’s as poetic and as beautiful as all-get-out. Margo Adler’s “Drawing Down the Moon” is wonderful in showing the insane diversity of the “Pagan” crowd. I also got into some of Mary Daly’s stuff, finding lots of thoughts I already mulled over as a kid in the sixties in these ”radical” books of the seventies & eighties. Starhawk’s “Dreaming the Dark” was the first in this series of feminist books that I read and it left the deepest imprint.

Most of the “pagans” I’ve run into are Lisa Simpson nerds—and I mean that in the nicest possible way—smart, decent, bookish and feminist. My neck of the woods was the Bay Area the 80’s & 90’s, for a while there I was floating in the backwash of the Separatist movement, recording concerts for “The Woman’s Philharmonic” and otherwise keeping company with lots of women sporting very short haircuts. Z. Budapest dances to that particular lavender Bossa Nova.

My notion of PMM is very 1001 nights: there’s a lot more “and’s” than “or’s.” In a world where there’s such an insane level of diversity you really have to take a crack at seeing the world through “others” eyes. And “seeing things through others eyes” ‘supposed to be one of the things pagan folk do or at least get paid for [when that happens it’s usually called “New Age” and features fluffier packaging]. If you “Cop” to regularly having visionary experience you’re already in trouble which I guess is why you don’t get any of them proselytizers stalking ya. But my experiences have been that just having images of female deities decorating your house the tends to level the playing field. I guess the easiest way for an atheist to understand deities such as these is to consider them mnemonic devices, “virtue” collectors. Meditating on collections of virtues repeats good “spell” words in your head. In any case, the “Witch”/PMM types I’ve run into have a tendency to eclectically take in images of deities from many different cultures and the Buddhist image of Quan Yin is particularly popular. Figures that “our” near-universal symbol of compassion is a mother, eh?

Dear Ms. Jacoby,

First thing, I looked up your history via my usual lazy-minded wandering in search engines and am quite blown away by the books you’ve written. I’m sure I’d find them quite absorbing, looks like you “speak to my condition.” I’m sure I’d find “Half-Jew: A Daughter's Search for Her Family's Buried Past” something easy for me to relate to considering my family history. But I’ll probably get to “The Age of American Unreason” first, I was one of those kids with a nose stuck in a book when I was supposed to be playing baseball or something else that seemed normal.

Among the Conservative "Christians," there was some stirring against the "Harry Potter" book series because there were witches in it. Never mind that the interesting stories got kids to read, and never mind that the books were obviously and universally acknowledged to be fictional accounts of a complete fantasy world. These people are the Sarah Palin types, just too dumb to know any better, I guess. Can you condemn a person for being ignorant and dumb? Maybe instead of condemning them, we should try to improve the educational system, so they wouldn't turn out as dumb.

I asked this in the main thread - to avoid favoring any religions over others, why not simply address Thanksgiving in a secular way? One can be thankful for the good things in one's life without believing in deities or agencies, because the issue is simple appreciation. National days of prayer should be avoided because they're too sectarian - even if a president strives to make these neutral among competing faiths, that still favors religious beliefs that include prayer over religious beliefs that don't.

Dear Great Christian and Financial Crisis Poet, Pseudo,

Please come home.

Farnaz

Susan Jacoby

To Robinlandseadel--

I've read Margot Adler's book. She was once my colleague in the Allen Room (for writers of nonfiction books) in the New York Public Library, and I knew she was a Pagan, but we never talked about it. (One of the many nice things about Pagans is they don't proselytize.)

Sarah Palin's having been "blessed" to guard her from witchcraft was, of course, based on the old Christian contention that all witchcraft was the product of the devil. There was once a right-wing protest against the character of Glinda the Good in "The Wizard of Oz." Because, as everyone knows, there couldn't possibly be such a being as a good witch.

CCNL :"Oh no, not another Witch!!!"
Don't forget about Lions & Tigers & Bears [oh my!]

CCNL : "and just what is the definition of a heretical Witch?? :)) Is that even possible??"

A: To Be a heretic, all you have to do is disagree with the right person at the wrong time. [Note to CC, of course atheists and secularists can be heretics, just ask the inquisitors of 15th/16th/17th centuries. Just ask the Ghost of Joe McCarthy]

B: By really loving sacred choral music—Bach, Palestrina, Tallis, Faure, the Polychoral Christmas Music of the 16th century, etc.—IE; still working with certain Christian spiritual traditions—you can be just a little, tiny bit heretical in Wiccan circles. Chalk that one up to spending too much time in the Southern Baptist Church—See what that did for Burton Mack?

C: If Sarah Palin was a Witch—she's not, though a lot of folks like to call her one—she'd be a heretical Witch. Of course, she'd be one really evil witch.

D. Well of course the notion is absurd. Hassan-i Sabbah: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

E. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw

robinlandseadel,

Oh no, not another Witch!!! and just what is the definition of a heretical Witch?? :)) Is that even possible??

Well thank you so much, Susan Jacoby—my ego is inflating even as I type.

Back in 1989 when I was getting started doing radio programming at KPFA in Berkeley, CA, I took an honest shot at interviewing a number of folks who are pretty well known and regarded in the Pagan/Wiccan community. One of them—Starhawk*—also writes for "On Faith. Among the other pretty amazing folks I've managed to interview, I think you would find Zsuszanna Budapest and Don Frew particularly interesting.

Z. Budapest is mentioned quite a few times in Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon"—a nearly famous book about Pagan persons, beliefs and rituals that the NPR reporter updates every few years. Of all the people I'm met in the community, "Z" has the most witchy affect and the most outrageous humor. She taught me to be brave no matter what.

Don Frew has been involved in the Covenant of the Goddess for many years. He has a wonderful quick wit and an amazing knowledge of classic Roman and early Christian history. Mr. Frew is something of an altarboy gone bad, a one-time theology student who wised-up pretty early and decided to switch ranks. After getting to talk with him quite a few times—he is a friendly and exceedingly articulate soul—I got to learn just how Pagan Christmas and Jesus really are.

Of course, if you want to check out the close correlation of all things pagan and that pagan energy in the very quintessence of humor, you can't beat Monty Python with a stick and God knows they've tried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqX-tkDXEk

* My favorite writer in that community, wouldn't you know.

Susan Jacoby

Daniel in the Lion's Den and Robinland (the Pagan) can both write verse that scans. I salute you. And it hadn't occcurred to me that Santa is an anagram for Satan (nothing wrong with that, you're right), so I'm quite pleased to pass this important bit of cultural information on to my friends. I have to say that I hadn't met any Pagans, and didn't know much about them, until around two years ago, but one thing that impresses me about Pagans is the fact that most of them have a sense of humor.

CCNL :"Atheists and secularists are by definition not heretics."

Ah, but I'm not an atheist or a secularist. I'm a Goddess worshiping Pagan. I guess Witch is the most common handle for us types, but post-modern mystic works for me. There's a not-so-subtle difference, you know.

CCNL :"As per Bred, Born and Brainwashed orthodox Catholics, Professor JD Crossan is a heretic for pointing out the obvious flaws, myths, errors and embellishments in the RCC."

Well, good for him and good for you too.

"PANIC, CHAOS, CONFUSION! My work here is done."

WWJD :"Our righteousness is compared to grimy, filthy, dirty rages."

No, I just said that the fictional character of Jesus looks like the product of cynic culture. I didn't say your righteousness was a "grimy, filthy, dirty" rage.

WWJD : "How am I prideful? How am I a zealot? How do I have a self-righteous head of steam (really, how could I be self-righteous after I just stated that my righteousness is worthless???? hmm...)?"

Well, you didn't state that your "righteousness is worthless", you stated that "Our righteousness is compared to grimy, filthy, dirty rages," which I didn't do either.

I could go on nit-picking, but if you don't see my point, don't worry. My point of view is drastically different than yours, my conception of what Jesus is all about is different that yours, that's just the way it goes. Frankly, I'm having fun making these posts. As long as your happy, I'm happy.

Atheists and secularists are by definition not heretics. As per Bred, Born and Brainwashed orthodox Catholics, Professor JD Crossan is a heretic for pointing out the obvious flaws, myths, errors and embellishments in the RCC. Some day hopefully those RCC members still clinging to these superstitions will be in the minority and they then will become the heretics.

See http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf and http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html .

But Professor Burton Mack, a Southern Baptist and teacher emeritus at a Methodist affiliated school, did not say the simple preacher man did not live. He has concluded however, as does Professor Crossan, that the simple preacher man was a wisdom sage. (See the previous references and commentary)

robinlandseadel: "Well, looks like I'm not going to make you happy. Jesus is as real to me as Santa Claus, and not quite as real as Robin Hood, so it looks like we might have a difference of opinion. Considering that self-righteousness head of steam you're working up, you just might want to look into what noted satirist and Anglican cleric Jonathan Swift had to say of the sins of pride and zealotry. Of course, you run the risk of becoming even less happy."

You just made 4 assumptions of my character of which you have no basis. That was my first post on this forum, and apparently, I have yet to stand corrected. You simply proved my point through your own actions. How am I prideful? How am I a zealot? How do I have a self-righteous head of steam (really, how could I be self-righteous after I just stated that my righteousness is worthless???? hmm...)? Who said I wasn't happy??? Really, you should try to refrain from the blame game when your conscience is pricked.

Some advice for you: When a person in your life states the truth, and it hurts you or convicts you, don't make the mistake of assuming the one stating truth is arrogant or in fault. Truth hurts buddy. I simply stated what God said in His Word. You don't have a problem with me, you have a problem with the conviction of God.

CCNL, It isn't as if I never heard of these arguments that you're presenting before me and it isn't as if I'm unaware of the heretical nature of what I'm saying. The people who get to be "experts" in the realm of christianity do so by claiming belief, otherwise known as "drinking the Kool-Aid." There were many, many figures who had similar stories at the same time as the protagonist of the gospel fictions, much as in post-modern fictions you find loads of hippie everyman figures like Tyrone Slothrop and John Joseph Yossarian. A lot of those christian fictions, as you are doubtless aware, were expunged by your beloved Catholic church as they wrested control of this essentially anarchistic movement. To repeat isn't really to educate unless you're attempting to brainwash—truth is something you either get or you don't, like gnosis—but once again: If it reads like a myth, is structured like a myth and quacks like a myth, it is a myth. Even if there was a "historical Jesus", the story in the gospels is fiction.

Any rational investigation into the history of the life of Jesus removes any doubts about the historical existence of this simple preacher man.

See the previously given references. Also:

"Burton L. Mack is a writer and John Wesley Professor (now emeritus) in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology in Claremont, California. He is also active at the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity. Mack is primarily a scholar of Christian origins, approaching it from the angle of social group formation.

Mack's approach is skeptical, and he sees traditional Christian documents like the Gospels as myth as opposed to history ("myth" in New Testament studies is not meant to imply "falsehood" or "lie", but rather it is meant to take into account the social, cultural, and political situations of their author. The gospels, then, he sees more as charter documents of the early Christian movement than as reliable accounts of the life of Jesus)." (same conclusion of many historical Jesus exegetes like Professor JD Crossan)

Claremont School of Theology

"Originally founded as the Maclay School of Theology in San Fernando, California in 1885, the Methodist seminary was founded by Charles Maclay, founder of the town of San Fernando, former Methodist minister and State Senator. The school became affiliated with the University of Southern California from 1900 to 1957, staying on the USC campus until it moved to its present location in Claremont. The school is one of thirteen seminaries affiliated with the United Methodist Church, though usually more than forty different denominations are represented in the student body in any given school term."

"When asked by his students why he remained a Southern Baptist, Professor Mack would reply, " To make the other Southern Baptists mad." recollection from a student at CST in 1989.:

ref: www.answers.com

Other descriptions of the simple preacher man (A sampling is presented at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html- server currently not available.

( note that four of these historical Jesus exegetes are members of the On Faith panel)

Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ
Earl Doherty
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
Alvar Ellegård
G. A. Wells

Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
Gregory Riley

Jesus the Revolutionary
Robert Eisenman

Jesus the Wisdom Sage
John Dominic Crossan
Robert Funk
Burton Mack
Stephen J. Patterson

Jesus the Man of the Spirit
Marcus Borg
Stevan Davies
Geza Vermes

Jesus the Prophet of Social Change
Richard Horsley
Hyam Maccoby
Gerd Theissen

Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
Bart Ehrman
Paula Fredriksen
Gerd Lüdemann
John P. Meier
E. P. Sanders

Jesus the Savior
Luke Timothy Johnson
Robert H. Stein
N. T. Wright

CCNL :"Burton Mack, a Southern Baptist. . . is a noted scholar of the hypothetical Q Document, and is confident that it can be sifted into three layers. . ."

I know, I know, I read "The Lost Gospel: The Book Q and Christian Origins" along with Burton L. Mack's other books. Did you? Any rational investigation into the discontinuities of the historical chain of the so-called life of Jesus Christ casts doubts on the historical existence of this obviously mythic character.

WWJD :""Robin, as I recall, is not a Christian, but his actions would make Jesus smile."

Actually, no. Our righteousness is compared to grimy, filthy, dirty rages. . ."

Well, looks like I'm not going to make you happy. Jesus is as real to me as Santa Claus, and not quite as real as Robin Hood, so it looks like we might have a difference of opinion. Considering that self-righteousness head of steam you're working up, you just might want to look into what noted satirist and Anglican cleric Jonathan Swift had to say of the sins of pride and zealotry. Of course, you run the risk of becoming even less happy.

"Robin, as I recall, is not a Christian, but his actions would make Jesus smile."

Actually, no. Our righteousness is compared to grimy, filthy, dirty rages. Jesus would weep, for He knows this man's actions will not save him from the punishment Jesus took upon Himself. He would be in torment, for He knows the condition of this man's heart.

Reiteration is important to education:

Then there is this from www.answers.com:

"Though he does not regard himself as a Historical Jesus scholar, he (Burton Mack, a Southern Baptist) suggests that Jesus was a wandering sage, similar in style to the Greco-Roman cynics, and that the earliest "Jesus Movements" followed a similar model.

He is a noted scholar of the hypothetical Q Document, and is confident that it can be sifted into three layers: one containing primarily wisdom sayings, another giving details on how the community ought to behave, and another containing apocalyptic pronouncements. This model of Q is highly controversial."

Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low. . .

That President Bush's term will soon be dead...

DANIELINTHELIONSDEN :

"Let the joyous news be spread
That President Bush's term is dead."

Hey, it scans! Yip Harburg would be proud.

". . .He's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho,
let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low. . ."

Yes, we all have something to be thankful for this year.

I think that President Bush should proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving, that finally, and at long last, he won't be President anymore.

"Let the joyous news be spread
That President Bush's term is dead."

This will be the best Thanksgiving ever, as President Bush and President-Elect Obama approach that fateful day, January 20, when all of President Bush's powers will be taken away "poof" and he will be EX-President Bush.

It was a rough 8 years, and even though there is an awful lof of damage that needs to be undone, still, this is going to be a very good Thanksgiving.

CCNL :"Hmmm, the conclusions of fifty+ historical Jesus exegetes vs Burton Mack and a few others, now which direction should we go??"

With all 50 + on the payroll or in the thrall of Christian organizations? "The Christian Myth" points out that innate conflict of interest from the 50 + you cite. I'd:

1. Use Occam's Razor.

2. Note that Burton L. Mack simply wants to apply the same standards to the myth of Jesus that would be applied to any other myth.

3. Come to my own, independent conclusions.

Hmmm, the conclusions of fifty+ historical Jesus exegetes vs Burton Mack and a few others, now which direction should we go??

Note: Mack's books are typical references in the studies of those 50+ historical Jesus exegetes.

Then there is this from www.answers.com:

"Though he does not regard himself as a Historical Jesus scholar, he (Burton Mack) suggests that Jesus was a wandering sage, similar in style to the Greco-Roman cynics, and that the earliest "Jesus Movements" followed a similar model. He is a noted scholar of the hypothetical Q Document, and is confident that it can be sifted into three layers: one containing primarily wisdom sayings, another giving details on how the community ought to behave, and another containing apocalyptic pronouncements. This model of Q is highly controversial."

Note: Professor Crossan basically agrees with Mack's conclusions that the simple preacher man was a wandering, Cynic sage.

from wikipedia.com

" For Crossan, Jesus was more like a Cynic sage from an Hellenistic Jewish tradition than either a Christ who would die as a substitute for sinners or a Messiah who who wanted to establish an independent Jewish state of Israel."

CCNL: 2. "Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication: . . "

Claimed or stated date of publication, nothing that can be backed up by concordant texts of the same time, nothing that pins the documents in time. And the dates you're using are speculative. Internal evidence demonstrates that all gospel materials had to be written ce. 70 or later, the historically documented date of the fall of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. There were plenty of writers writing about "historical" events at the time, using a style of writing distinct from the mythologizing of the Gospels. These writers of historic events in and around those places where the character of Jesus Christ is placed could have written about loaves and fishes, water into wine and suchlike mythical events. But they didn't report these events; the only logical conclusion is that they didn't happen. If this was a court case involving property rights it rightly would be laughed out of court.

One can claim that these things written down much later might have happened 'round those times, but they all are still far enough away from the events in question as to bring doubt to these dates and the veracity of the events or fantasies of events within. It's just like the game "telephone"; whatever message started the conversation goes way back in the wayback. By the time it makes it into text it has little relation to the original event.

Just think of the ascension of Ronald Reagan in our own time. His life has already moved into the realm of mythology. Then move back to the trackless past of the era of the Gospels. It all just stories by the fire, long before tape recorders or driver's licenses.

CCNL: "The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened."

Considering the extremely checkered history of the Christian Church, it is very easy to imagine that all of their stories were made up. Knowing that Josephus & Tacitus were very far away in place and time from the events in question is simply the beginning of rational doubts as regards the historicity of the Jesus Myth. If it looks likes a myth, reads like a myth and quacks like a myth, it is a myth.

Once again, read Burton L. Mack's "The Christian Myth."

robinlandseadel,

What most historical Jesus exegetes have found in the first to third century CE scriptural and non-scriptural documents is summarized by Professor JD Crossan, an On-Faith Panelist, in the following commentary:

(From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus)

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.

There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

Then there are these scriptural references:

Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

Added suggested readings:

1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm -- the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books on the subject.

2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter

3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
-- "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"

4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html--"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."

5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria

7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html

8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
joezias.com/HealthHealingLandIsrael.htm

9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

10. 7. The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm

11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2

12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=Jesus_Database

13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb016.html

14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm

16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/

17. Diseases in the Bible:
etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-08022006-125807/unrestricted/02dissertation.pdf
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
religion-online.org/

19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria

20. The New Testament Gateway - Internet NT ntgateway.com/

21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
ntgateway.com/

22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
members.aol.com/DrSwiney/seminar.html

23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php

24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separted into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf

25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf

27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by title with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html

29. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.org/empires/peterandpaul/history/timeline/

30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm

31. See www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.

32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.

33. The books of the following other On Faith panelists: Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.

34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus,

CCNL, read Burton L. Mack's "The Christian Myth.":

http://tinyurl.com/5ahj53

Whatever the character named "Jesus Christ" in the Gospels might be, he probably was more like a collection of stories of a mythical nature than a historical figure. Jesus is a myth, like any other myth. Professor Mack goes to considerable lengths to display this truth in "The Christian Myth," even though he never says it outright. He spends a lot of time in "The Christian Myth" explaining why he can't say it outright. You may disagree, but at least give the man a full hearing before passing judgement on him. What Professor Mack has to say concerning the "Christian" influence on the politics of the U.S.A. is particularly scathing and apt.

"Presidential proclamations of thanksgiving to a deity offer one more example of an extra-constitutional custom that has now acquired a quasi-sacred status."

This is fairly recent, that is, the "quasi-sacred status." In the West, religion will now be put back to the use for which it was primarily intended from the early Renaissance through the mid-twentieth century, to opiate the people. Indeed, unless we take to the streets as we surely should and demand answers, we will need something to get us through the next miserable decade.

It could be worse, and may become so. All kinds of evil comes about at times like these, fascists, and the like, although it could be argued that religiofascists are always awaiting an opportunity.

A fine essay, Susan. Now, if you could just find it in your heart to stop using the word "famously." Think about it. Has anyone ever actually said or done anything "famously"? Given the semantic limitations inherent in "fame," could anyone?

Susan - I am reminded of a friend who wrote to our senator to complain about the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

The senator responded that he was more concerned about God's name being "rendered meaningless" by being used in such a ceremonial and perfunctory manner.

Now, there's something an atheist can pray for!

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1 wrote: "Christmas shopping is a sacrifice of people who work hard for their money and are giving some of it away to those whom they love and whom they care about"

WOW - a theology of consumerism!!!! I guess this makes all of our other "shopping holidays" religious holidays as well. It gives new meaning to the phrase "holy day of obligation", doesn't it!

The possible influence of the Cynics on the simple preacher man, Jesus, has been discussed by a number of historic Jesus exegetes.

A synopsis from Wikipedia:

"Many historians have noted the similarities between the life and teachings of Jesus and those of the Cynics. Some scholars have argued that the Q document, the hypothetical common source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke, has strong similarities with the teachings of the Cynics.[57]
[58]

Scholars on the quest for the historical Jesus, such as Burton L. Mack and John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar, have argued that 1st century Galilee was a world in which Hellenistic ideas collided with Jewish thought and traditions. The city of Gadara, only a day's walk from Nazareth, was particularly notable as a center of Cynic philosophy,[59] and Mack has described Jesus as a "rather normal Cynic-type figure."[60] For Crossan, Jesus was more like a Cynic sage from an Hellenistic Jewish tradition than either a Christ who would die as a substitute for sinners or a Messiah who who wanted to establish an independent Jewish state of Israel.[61] Other scholars doubt that Jesus was deeply influenced by the Cynics, and see the Jewish prophetic tradition as of much greater importance.[62]

"Many of the ascetic practices of Cynicism were undoubtably adopted by early Christians, and Christians often employed the same rhetorical methods as the Cynics.[63] Some Cynics were actually martyred for speaking out against the authorities.[64] One Cynic, Peregrinus Proteus, lived for a time as a Christian before converting to Cynicism,[65] whereas in the 4th century, Maximus of Alexandria, although a Christian, was also called a Cynic because of his ascetic lifestyle.

Christian writers would often praise Cynic poverty,[66] although they scorned Cynic shamelessness: Augustine stating that they had, "in violation of the modest instincts of men, boastfully proclaimed their unclean and shameless opinion, worthy indeed of dogs."[67] The ascetic orders of Christianity also had direct connection with the Cynics,[68] as can be seen in the wandering mendicant monks of the early church who in outward appearance, and in many of their practices were little different from the Cynics of an earlier age."

But now the Age of Enlightenment has been with us since the likes of Albert Schweitzer began to evaluate the historical Jesus in the 1800's and early 1900's. What has been determined from exhaustive analyses of the known scriptural and non-scriptural documents from the first to third century CE is that Jesus was not deity but a simple preacher man embellished by the likes of P, M, M, L and J into some kind of Cynic messiah.

Little is known about M, M, L and J. Maybe they were actually Cynics??

Here's an early Christmas present for you all. The cynics invented Satire, so it's probably not a bad idea to read some of the Jesus sayings with an ear for jokes, at least that's what my philosophy professor told me, along with the additional information that there were about 1000 folks who had elements of the Jesus story who lived, walked and breathed around the time of the nominal "historical" Jesus, who might not have walked the earth anyway.

But, whatever, nevermind, back to the Cynics:

http://www.youtube.com/montypython

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1 :"I’ve never seen anything like shoving and kicking one another; that sounds like a description by the amoral media who don’t have any idea what Christmas is."

LEPIDOPTERYX :"You've obviously never worked in retail."

Praise Jesus! Hallelujah & etcetera, & etcetera, & so forth.

Calvinism is so far off from the initial "Cynic" impulse of Christianity, don't you think? CCNL habitually references Crossan, but he really should look into Burton L. Mack, who's historical research into the sources of the New Testament—the Synoptic Gospels in particular—point to Cynic* Philosophy underpinning what is now known as the "Q" document, those parallel sayings and parables in Matthew, Mark & Luke. John's even more Greek, in the beginning was the Logos[+], don't you dare call it "Word."

In any case, yes indeed: "If Jesus came back and saw what's going on in His name, He'd never stop throwing up ...", as Woody Allen wrote and we heard via the thespian skills of Max Von Sydow in "Hannah & Her Sisters."

Assuming that Jesus had Cynic tendencies, one most assuredly could imaging his reaction to what we call "Christmas". When I recently worked at Christmas time as as a retail employee of a big-box bookstore, my favorite indicator of the coming season of shopping was the South Park seasonal CD extravaganza "Mr. Hankey's Christmas Classics." I remember one customer breaking down because we didn't have the book for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season 7" on account of it not existing at the time. XMAS is 100% pagan [trust me, I've done the research] and XMAS is or at least can be crazy, in particular the annual highly anticipated 4th-quarter up-tic in the retail sector, which might not pan out this year—right? Now entertain us.

I think this is the year to shut off the parades and football games, the 400th annual viewing of "A Charlie Brown Christmas", get down with the Dickens, do the "Christmas Carol" thing and do some kind of work for the homeless, 'cause a lot more of them are going to die this year than last. Say you're pro-life? Work with your local Food Not Bombs, or whatever program your church has cooking this year and save some lives. Wanna do Thanksgiving right? Then do it for those who ain't got no stockings, no tree, no house. Do it for your better Angel.

*—an early form of the Diggers/Beats/Luddites/Hippies/Punks, all radical left movements in opposition to "The Man"—

[+]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1 :

I’ve never seen anything like shoving and kicking one another; that sounds like a description by the amoral media who don’t have any idea what Christmas is.
*************************************************
You've obviously never worked in retail.

It's called "Ceremonial Deism." Look it up!

?This was about as huge a faux pas as you could commit those days. Jesus’ neighbors were extremely selective about whom they invited to their table; whose invitations they accepted; where they ate; whether they washed before eating; and especially where they sat at the table… all of these determined their social position. And since Jesus had this terrible habit of eating with the wrong people, meals became the most important venue for his distinctly counter-cultural teaching. That’s why Christians developed such a completely opposite approach to hospitality."

Does this go to the burgeoning fast food business?
Obesity in America?

Historically speaking some of the described meals, e.g. the Last Supper, did not occur but the accounts real or not show the importance of eating common meals even in the first century CE.

From some pastor's sermon:

"My New Testament professor in seminary once quipped, “In Luke’s gospel, Jesus is either going to a meal, eating a meal, or coming from a meal. Somehow,” he said, “Luke seems to be one big dinner party.” Except for the fact that, unlike you and me, Jesus’ parents apparently forgot to teach him to never talk about politics or religion at the dinner table.

This was about as huge a faux pas as you could commit those days. Jesus’ neighbors were extremely selective about whom they invited to their table; whose invitations they accepted; where they ate; whether they washed before eating; and especially where they sat at the table… all of these determined their social position. And since Jesus had this terrible habit of eating with the wrong people, meals became the most important venue for his distinctly counter-cultural teaching. That’s why Christians developed such a completely opposite approach to hospitality."

I realized long ago why Thanksgiving was my favorite holiday. It's simple - just about preparing and enjoying a meal. It's inclusive - everyone shares and anyone can come - not just family. Part of the tradition is inviting outsiders -- just like the pilgrims invited the indians. And it's not religious. There's no obligation to attend a religious service before indulging in the food and camaraderie.

"It is strange that the foreign carmakers aren't having the same problems. You might ask yourself were you better off two years ago before the Dems took over."

Oh but they are. read the papers much? as for the dems- took over when?? You seem not to understand how Congress works. it's been a gop show all the way for quite some time. Now it's over. the dems take over in January. Too bad it can't be sooner.

Susan,

My favorite way to say grace before munching down on the big bird is:

"God's a hunch ... Let's munch"!

ARMINIUS :"Robin, as I recall, is not a Christian. . ."

Jesus, as I recall, was not a Christian : )

Sometimes those less fortunate is me. In any case, I often ask myself: "What Would Robin Hood Do?

I can only assume that Ms. Jacoby will be showing up for work next Thursday while most of her colleagues are taking the day off...

DJBrent,

"TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1,

I'm gald you went off on that tangent BEFORE Thanksgiving so I don't risk throwing up my favorite meal of the year! "

Yes, TTWSwhatever does that endearing ability to make us clutch our stomachs. He does touch on one true thing - Christmas is for giving and love. But there are others here - like Robin - who use their love like Jesus would, by helping those less fortunate. Robin, as I recall, is not a Christian, but his actions would make Jesus smile. TTWSwhatever's actions - well, I can't really say. I think he means well, but comes across wrong. He restricts it to family and friends - which many do, he is not alone - but this action seems, IMHO, to reinforce the fact that Christmas has been warped and twisted into some kind of massive economic orgy.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1,

I'm gald you went off on that tangent BEFORE Thanksgiving so I don't risk throwing up my favorite meal of the year!

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1: "For feeding the poor it requires someone to give up their valuable time to do something for others they don't even know except that they are human beings and need our help."

I do that every week. Thanksgiving's usually better {Xmas too}, on account of all the extra stuff the food outlets have to get rid of after the annual festivals of gluttony, greed & wishful thinking. I've spent more than my fair share of winters as a retail employee, I know how folks go plum nuts as the lights go out. Face reality: Yuletime is even more pagan than Samhain. It's saturnalia, it's the feast of fools. Somewhere between the end of the Civil War and "Miracle on 34th Street" Christmas turned into the annual expectation of a 4th quarter up-tic in retail sales. I may not be a Christian, but I know hypocrisy when I smell it.

But giving freely to someone you don't know and giving without expectation of anything in return is pure, uncut grace.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN JACOBY
“PEOPLE FIGHTING AND KICKING THEMSELVES FOR BARGAINS?”
NOVEMBER 19, 2008 8:54 AM

IRT:
"Thanksgiving Proclamations: Cracks In The Wall Of Separation."

“I am always grateful for the morally uplifting effect of thanksgiving proclamations to God when, on the evening after Thanksgiving Day, news broadcasts bring us the inevitable images of customers shoving and kicking one another in their effort to take home a discounted big-screen TV on the blessed day now known as the official start of the Christmas shopping season."

ANS:
I’ve never seen anything like shoving and kicking one another; that sounds like a description by the amoral media who don’t have any idea what Christmas is.

Christmas shopping is a sacrifice of people who work hard for their money and are giving some of it away to those whom they love and whom they care about. Christmas is a celebration of love for one another.

The amoral can only see gifts being bought; they can’t see the work that went into getting those gifts, and the work that had to be done to get the money buy them. Further they don't see the pleasure it gives to please the one you love.

Moreover, if you think would be working in a kitchen all day cooking a Christmas meal for people they don’t love, then you probably haven’t tried it.

To cook a Christmas dinner has to be done for love of those whom you are cooking for. It requires more than just cooking the food. It requires paying for the food and shopping for it. It also requires a little anxiety waiting to see if it is liked.

For feeding the poor it requires someone to give up their valuable time to do something for others they don't even know except that they are human beings and need our help.

Mother Theresa saw Jesus in every one she helped, in the poor and dying she lifted from the gutters in Calcutta, in the one's she bathed and comforted. That's what Christmas is, a love for others.

Volunteers serving dinners to the needy and homeless is a Thanksgiving and Christmas phenomena. It's not for one's own egotistical satisfaction, there is none. It's for doing something for people you have compassion for, whom you love and care about even though they're strangers.

No, I don’t see people shoving and kicking people while shopping; I see tired, worn out people driving in heavy traffic, and looking all day for that special gift, and wondering and trusting it will please the one they bought it for.

Christmas shopping is an act of love; its not an act of greed and consumerism. That is only the case for those who don’t believe in Christmas.

Scrooge was one of those. When the story ended, he was described as a man who knew how to keep Christmas well. Moreover, he was delighted that he knew how to, because it gave him great joy. Love seems to do people that way, especially during Thanksgiving and Christmas.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN JACOBY
“THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATIONS”
NOVEMBER 19, 2008 8:54 AM

IRT
“Thanksgiving Proclamations: Cracks In The Wall Of Separation

"President George W. Bush…will [probably] offer a special prayer for the millions of workers dependent on the auto industry...whom he and his fellow Republicans wish to hand a lump of coal for their Christmas stockings.”

ANS:
I've never seen a lump of coal that cost over a trillion dollars, viz. an $850 billion bailout, and $300 billion more all to solve this Democrat Frank and Dodd financial fiasco. That doesn't include the other multi-billion dollar bailouts.

That’s hard working American money if you didn't know it. Besides, Obama promised to bankrupt the coal industry, so there may not be any coal to give.

It is strange that the foreign carmakers aren't having the same problems. You might ask yourself were you better off two years ago before the Dems took over.

A moment of silence for the now silent 35+ million womb-babies aborted since 1973 would be a better gesture.

Well, speaking as a pagan, I say Goddess bless you, in particular for:

"I am always grateful for the morally uplifting effect of thanksgiving proclamations to God when, on the evening after Thanksgiving Day, news broadcasts bring us the inevitable images of customers shoving and kicking one another in their effort to take home a discounted big-screen TV on the blessed day now known as the official start of the Chistmas shopping season."

Just remember kiddies: Santa's just an anagram for Satan. Not that there's anything wrong with that. . .

FOR ALL ATHEISTS:
TODAY:
WATCH THE GREAT DEBATE OF THE 20TH CENTURY BETWEEN AN ATHEIST AND A CATHOLIC.

IT IS A DEBATE BETWEEN CLARENCE DARROW THE FAMOUS SCOPE'S LAWYER WHO FACED WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYANT AND G,K. CHESTERTON.

SEE THE 30 MINUTE DOCUDRAMA AT 11:00 TODAY WED 19 2008 ON THE LINK BELOW
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