Obama Revives Forgotten Principle Of Founders

I didn't think you really wanted facts. You prefer to live in the land of make believe.

At least your lack of credibility has been exposed for all to see.

Farnaz:

“Rick,

I'm still waiting for instances of racism against Israeli Muslims"

Yep. He found something to quote. I hope you are not holding your breath.

“Rick,

I'm still waiting for instances of racism against Israeli Muslims. This is a factual assertion, requiring a factual answer. An empirical question requires empirical evidence…

Facts, Rick. Facts? This is just one instance where you provide none. Some, any, would be desirable. Just one or two facts, on any issue.”

Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 21, 2009 11:25 PM
_________________________

Fact 2: _____ On July 5, 1950, the Knesset, Israel's Parliament, enacted item 5710-1950 the Law of Return. Follow-up legislation on immigration matters was contained in the Nationality Law of 1952. These two pieces of legislation combine religion, history, nationalism, and democracy, in a way unique to Israel. Together, the legislation grants special rights to Jews with the aim of facilitating their immigration to the Jews' ancestral homeland.

The Law of Return declares that Israel constitutes a home not only for the inhabitants of the State, but also for all members of the Jewish people everywhere.
The law gives the right of return to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather)…

Critics claim that the Law of Return runs counter to the claims of a democratic state.

Some Palestinians and advocates for Palestinian refugee rights criticize the Law of Return, which they compare to the Palestinian claim to a right of return. These critics consider the Law, as contrasted against the denial of the Palestinian right of return, as offensive and as institutionalized ethnic discrimination…

Rick,

“I'm still waiting for instances of racism against Israeli Muslims. This is a factual assertion, requiring a factual answer. An empirical question requires empirical evidence…

Facts, Rick. Facts? This is just one instance where you provide none. Some, any, would be desirable. Just one or two facts, on any issue.”

Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 21, 2009 11:25 PM
_________________________

Fact 1: UN blasts Israeli marriage law

A United Nations panel has urged Israel to repeal a new law forcing Palestinians who marry Israelis to live separate lives.

The Geneva-based Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination unanimously approved a resolution saying the Israeli law violated an international human rights treaty.

On 31 July the Israeli parliament approved a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship or residency.

[Israel] should reconsider its policy with a view to facilitating family unification on a non-discriminatory basis

Arabs make up about 20% of Israel's population of 6 million. About 3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Many families were divided by the Middle East conflict, and over the years marriage between the two groups has been common.

Since 1993, more than 100,000 Palestinians have obtained Israeli permits in this way and some Israelis see this as a security threat.

The UN committee - which monitors the 1966 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination - condemned new law.

Farnaz,

Sorry…had to take a work break… :>)

Re: “I'm still waiting to hear your factual explanation of how Israel destroyed the world economy.”
______________________

On April 21 at 9:00 am my comment was:

“…Now back to business…you claim to save your polemic rejoinders for “racists” among others…yet you bring out some of your most ferocious attacks against bloggers who point out the obvious dangerous faults of the racist State of Israel. These are serious faults that are relevant to the current thread as they threaten world peace in the form of a possible US/Israeli “War against Islam” and WW III.

This is not irrelevant trivia but is making headline news most every day in the form of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and “the two-state solution” as well as the threatened Israeli attack on Iran that could shut down Persian Gulf shipping and further damage the world economy.”
______________________________
I’m sure that you, being a Professor at University and all, know the diff between past and future tense.

I did not say that Israel had threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III in the past. I was referring to “the threatened Israeli attack on Iran that COULD shut down Persian Gulf shipping, further damage the world economy and bring on WW III”.

These same phrases (“does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III”) were repeated multiple times on later posts in similar context without amplification in the interest of brevity.

Farnaz:

"Rick,

I'm still waiting to hear your factual explanation of how Israel destroyed the world economy."

Give him time to find a newspaper article to quote.

Rick,

I'm still waiting to hear your factual explanation of how Israel destroyed the world economy.

Spark 1: Second post to you. For my most recent, read the third in this list.

Oh, and Jamil,
Tell us about the Christians and their roles in government in Middle Eastern nations. Tell us about their opportunities. Tell us about their position in Pakistani society.
When you're done, Jamil, tell us about the Palestinian Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. How do the Saudi and Egyptian Muslims treat the Palestinian Muslims?
How many serve in "government"? What kinds of opportunities do they have? Etc.
Impartial, inquiring minds want to know.
Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 17, 2009 9:49 AM

Spark1: My first original post to you (Jamil?)

Jamil,
You write: "The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions"
From this statement I gather you know nothing about Judaism and less about Israel and the Palestinians. First, unlike Islam and for that matter, Christianity, Judaism forbids comparison/contrast between or among religions, holding that the deity (Hashem) has a covenant with ALL PEOPLES.
Hence, you will never hear in a synagogue as you will in a Mosq or Church mention of Christians, Hindus and Jews or of Muslims and Jews, respectively. Neither will you hear comparison/contrasts drawn between or among adherents of different religions.
Further, Israel is not a religion; it is a nation of enormous diversity, both with respect to national ancestry and with respect to religion. Israeli Muslims serve in the Israeli Parliament as do Israeli Christians. Israelis (Jewish or other) do not slander the Palestinian Muslims, teach grotesque nonsense about them, e.g., they drink blood (!), as the Palestinian Muslims, and others among the Muslims teach about Jews.
I find all this "blood" nonesense quite remarkable, given that Jews may not ingest blood AT ALL, not in meat not in anything. Following Judaism, Islam follows the same principle. When Muslims cannot find a Halal store, they purchase from stores that sell kosher meat.
Arabic, Jamil, is the second language of Israel. Israeli students study it in school.
Israel, Jamil, is the only nation in the Middle East, where the Muslims have absolute freedom of speech, can choose their own representatives in Parliament, in fair and free elections.
NOW, Jamil, tell us in which Middle

"The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions. In such a climate there is nothing unusual to be discovered about Islam."

These are the exact same words, of Jamil, scroll down. I've also responded to them. However, I will reply again. I will begin by answering you as I did Jamil, therefore.

First, get your facts straight. Judaism is a religion. Israel is a nation. Christianity is a religion. The US is a nation.

"The Jews" are not "punishing" "the Muslims" for anything. For my lengthier reply scroll down.

"The Muslims" however have dispossed us, including yours truly from their native lands, killed us, imprisoned us, prevented us from attending schools, entering certain professions, deprived us of even the minimal rights "the Muslims" enjoy in their own lands.

"The Muslims," on the other hand, have the right to vote in free lections, serve in the Israeli Parliament, have access to schools and professions, freedom of religion. Their Mosqs, unlike our ancient synagogues have not been destroyed.

"The Muslims" are punishing us not only because of "our religioun" but because our mothers or fathers may have practiced it. Even if we don't, to "the Muslims" we are still "the Jews."

The vilify us in Newspapers, in terms reminiscent of Die Sturmer, forbid us to even enter their countries, in some cases, "the Jews" own homeland.

Spark1, if you are Jamil, post as Jamil. If you're pasting his comments, attribute them to him.

Otherwise, you discredit yourself.

Btw., I've used the phrase "the Muslims," rather than mention specific nations. This is in the interest of being terminologically consistent with your post.
------------
Addendum: EU nations have instructed European Jews that they must take precautions when going about in public to protect themselves against "the Muslims."

No such instructions have been given to "the Muslims."

Islam is here on this planet for the last 1400 years. It is a practicing religion, not just based on Friday prayers or else rituals. Is this something new which came to light after 9/11 only?.
As a matter of fact mankind is once again turning towards religion. The neo-con and Bush Blair lead the world to wage wars based on their religious beliefs.
Then there is a revival of extreme Hinduism in India but as usual until now no one bother about it. The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions. In such a climate there is nothing unusual to be discovered about Islam.
What secular views the American state cherished do not matter as much as the alarming point that when an American President comes in guise with hidden religious extreme sentiments then he can wage dangerous wars in the world and even one which can lead to a third world war.
Islam is a religion practiced by more than one billion people, no one can finish them by might or otherwise.
It is even more difficult to change the local culture and values which are being practiced by the people in different parts of the world. If we have any fear this is our own created, we have the right to secure our selves and our homeland but we do not have the right to wage wars in far flung place based upon false apprehensions.
You cannot win any war anywhere without the support of the people of the land, what ever their belief might be, in present day it is Islam so all the grudge for not winning is against Islam.

Whose Israel Shall It Be?

By Richard Cohen in the February 24, 2009 issue of WP…

The day after the United Nations created the state of Israel, the country's first president, Chaim Weizmann, found time to work on his memoir, "Trial and Error." In it, he issued a warning to the Israeli leaders of today: "I am certain that the world will judge the Jewish state by what it will do with the Arabs." It was Nov. 30, 1947.

Weizmann was an astonishingly accomplished man -- chemist, diplomat, statesman -- but maybe his most uncanny talent was that of seer. Peering into the future, he glimpsed the ugly turn Israeli politics has recently taken and how it is now acceptable to talk in repulsive ways about the country's 1.3 million Arabs. "There must not be one law for the Jew and another for the Arabs," he wrote.

Weizmann's admonition may not be known to Avigdor Lieberman, an immigrant from the former Soviet republic of Moldova and now one of Israel's most important political leaders. Lieberman's Yisrael Beitenu party placed third in the recent election, meaning he will almost certainly be part of the next government. Lieberman is often called a "nationalist." Maybe so, but he is also an anti-Arab demagogue.

The Arabs of Lieberman's antipathy are not Israel's traditional enemies -- either in Gaza, the West Bank or elsewhere in the Middle East. He focuses instead on the Arabs of Israel proper, about 20 percent of the population. They are his fellow citizens, some of them of dubious loyalty, it is true, and most of them with genuine grievances, it is also true. In essence, Lieberman wants to swap them for Jewish settlers now living provocatively in the occupied West Bank. It's half a good idea.

But it is the other half -- the one that would rid Israel of its Arabs -- that has propelled Lieberman to the front rank of Israeli politicians. The Israeli electorate, feeling besieged, has moved to the right. The centrist Kadima Party narrowly won the election, but it is the right that gained strength overall, and now Prime Minister-designate Binyamin Netanyahu, not Kadima's Tzipi Livni, is trying to form a government. Lieberman ought not to be part of it.

Continued next post…

Continued from previous post…

The issue of Israel's Arabs is complicated. They are not Jews, yet they are expected to be loyal to a Jewish state. They are Arabs, yet they are expected to stand by while their fellow Arabs are pounded -- as in Gaza -- by Israeli guns.

Yet, in an odd way, Israel's Arabs ought to represent the best of Israel. They can vote. They hold seats in parliament. They have more civil rights in Israel than they would in any Arab nation. They ought to be a point of pride. Their civil liberties, their standard of living, their political participation ought to show the world what sort of country Israel is. That's what Weizmann wanted.

Weizmann was no dreamer. His century -- the 20th -- was fast becoming the bloodiest in history. The world was just completing an orgy of genocide, ethnic cleansing and population transfers -- Greeks for Turks and Turks for Greeks, Germans for Poles and Poles for Germans, a decades-long brawl culminating in the Holocaust and followed by the expulsion of millions of ethnic Germans from all over Eastern Europe. Pakistan and India were created in a similar manner -- a population swap of many millions of people. This was the way things were once done.

Israel, too, engaged some in ethnic cleansing -- or why else all those Palestinian refugees? But the attempt was both chaotic and, as we can see, not wholly successful. More important, the concept was anathema to important members of the Zionist establishment such as Weizmann. The way of the world -- eliminating ethnic minorities -- would not be practiced by the very ethnic minority that had suffered the most.
It is clear that the world has grown weary of Israel. Its problems seem intractable, insoluble. Its solicitous critics suggest it imbibe the hemlock of proportionality -- a missile for a missile, a rocket for a rocket. To do otherwise amounts to "state terrorism," in the felicitous phrase of Bill Moyers. It turns out winning isn't everything; losing gracefully is.

Lieberman's rhetoric has excited some concern in the American Jewish community, but, as usual, most of the leaders are mum. They ought to open their Weizmann, Page 461 to be precise, and see what Israel's founding fathers had in mind. Israel can swap land for peace, but not Arab for Jew. That would leave an empty space -- not only where the Arabs once were, but where Israel once kept its values.

Arminius:

“…On the other hand, there are alarming signs of racism in Israel. Like the politician (too late for a name, sorry) that is publicly preaching expelling all Arabs - i.e., ethnic cleansing.

Worse, a recent news story told of certain rabbis, fortunately few in number, who are chaplains in the IDF, telling soldiers that the horrific stories of the slaughter of Canaanites and Philistines in the Hebrew Scriptures are actually commandments, part of the law, and should be carried out now against all Arabs....”
_____________________
That would be new foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, Arminius, who said on April 1 that Israel was changing its policies on the peace process and was not bound by commitments it made at a U.S.-sponsored conference to pursue creation of a Palestinian state (Reference AP news article on April 1 published in WP).

Hadash MK Afu Aghbaria, meanwhile, urged the international community to impose a diplomatic embargo on Israel in the wake of Lieberman;s statements.

"It isn't surprising that a racist foreign minister would produce such vehement suggestions, only a day after the new government was formed," Aghbaria said.
____________________

From a WP article on April 17…
“…J Street [the new Israeli lobby in Washington D.C.] has not been shy about aggressively criticizing Israeli leaders. This month, the group launched an unusual YouTube video accusing new Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman of running a "racist and incendiary" election campaign and alleging that many U.S. Jewish leaders are "whitewashing what Lieberman stands for."
_________________
From a WP article on March 25

“…Lieberman has advocated the idea of a loyalty oath, for example, and although he says it is for all Israelis, he has made clear that he wants to test the allegiances of the 20 percent of the country that is of Arab descent. He has also talked of establishing a Palestinian state not on the basis of borders that existed before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war but on the basis of land swaps intended to substantially reduce Israel's Arab population: Jewish settlements in the West Bank would be exchanged for places, such as Umm al-Fahm, with large concentrations of Israeli Arabs…”

Arminius:

“Genocide in Gaza? What's that again?

Gee whiz, I thought genocide was killing almost everybody!”

Mind elaborating on that one, Armenius? Whoever said anything about genocide in Gaza???

And: “I fully expect a broadside from both of you.”

Nah…what’s the point. What can one expect from a Cracker?

Signed: Hopeless in Fredericksburg, VA :>)

The original Muslims were lied to by Mohammed. This bearing of false witness continues today via the sermons of the imams/clerics and to some degree by a few members of the "Ismalic-like" Baha'i "faith" e.g. Farnaz2 aka "Stadtbear" aka Spark1 Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka nadinebatra aka ????

Farnaz,

Your comment here prompted mine:

"After all, this is the Christian country that is genociding Iraq and Afghanistan, actively compromising the sovereignty of Pakistan, supporting the hated HOuse of Saud, Mubarak, etc., etc....."

Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 21, 2009 11:25 PM

Arminius,

"Evil Christian nation?" You've lost me.

But, no broadside. I will say that had I the time, I could post pages of anecdotal vitriol by Palestinian Muslims. Then there is the book discussed on this thread by a high-ranking military officer on the virulent antisemitism in this country's military. The kinds of anecdotes you post are representative of the kinds of things high-and-low profile Christian and Catholic clergy say all the time about Jews, Muslims, others. And? So? Point?

Undoubtedly, there is prejudice among some Israelis against some Palestinians. This rabbi or that does not an argument make.

One looks to freedom of expression, the right to vote in democratic elections, representation in Parliament, the right to attend universities, join professions, etc.

Genocide is not the right word for what we have done in Iraq, which compares not at all to Israel. We are guilty of mass murder, however. We were never attacked by Iraq. We have killed or have been directly/indirectly responsible for the deaths of 630,000 people, maimed thousands of others for life, destroyed the infrastructure.

We funded and trained the Taliban (along with SA)which has caused endless suffering, suicides in Afghanistan, have ravaged that country, having murdered hundreds of thousands with wanton bombings.

That same Taliban is now in the process of over-running Pakistan.

Frankly, I'm wondering why Israel is so particular with Rick, since he is almost alone on this blog (except for Justilthen), in dragging it into the current discussion, which concerns the US nonwar with Islam, but....

My greatest curiosity lies in learning how Israel destroyed the World Economy. I await his factual replies, some explanation of his logic.

Gotta go.

Goodnight,
Farnaz

Stadtbear:

'I've heard that life, at least in Riyadh, has become quite modern and westernized'

Interesting, but I wonder how. Yes, it is filled with western designer clothing shops in which women buy clothes they wear in their homes.

But flogging of women for talking with men not their husbands, etc., the morality police--all remain. Women can't drive, etc.

Among the poor in the outlying areas are Islamicists, who for lo these many years, continue to terrorize when the opportunities present themselves. Despite its numerous efforts, our good friends the Saudis, who gave us 9/11, who continue to fund terrorism through Saudi Bank in Manhattan, cannot drive terrorism from its soil by exporting it to Pakistan, funding it in Afghanistan, etc.

After all, when the government, clergy, etc., terrorizes the people, socializes them to hate, kill, flog, douse with acid, the people learn. They learn what they are taught.

You are not alone in having hated it there. Recently, I had to ask a Tanzanian student to purge his essay of the epithets he used to describe SA. If you've ever been to Tanzania, know any Tanzanians, you can imagine the shock Saudi Arabia is for them.

Farnaz

"Once again into the breach, dear friends..."

Concerning this duel here -

"Israel is a racist nation..."
Huh? Say what?
Genocide in Gaza? What's that again?
Gee whiz, I thought genocide was killing almost everybody! If the Israelis had intended this, they could have loaded their F16's (which can carry a bomb load greater than a WWII bomber) with incendiaries, and killed hundreds of thousands in an afternoon.
On the other hand, there are alarming signs of racism in Israel. Like the politician (too late for a name, sorry) that is publicly preaching expelling all Arabs - i.e., ethnic cleansing.
Worse, a recent news story told of certain rabbis, fortunately few in number, who are chaplains in the IDF, telling soldiers that the horrific stories of the slaughter of Canaanites and Philistines in the Hebrew Scriptures are actually commandments, part of the law, and should be carred out now against all Arabs....

Now, then, concerning Iraq. America, that Evil Christian Nation, is committing genocide? Huh? Say what? Yes, of course, the civilian casualties have been hideous, and possible cause for war crimes investigations. But genocide - if the US of A had intended that, we could have done it without 4000 dead in a week with B52s filled with incendiaries and napalm, same as Tokyo, 1945 (B29,s there).

Genocide is too easy a term to throw around. What happened in Gaza and what is happening in the Mideast is horrible, but not genocide.

I fully expect a broadside from both of you. But I don't give a damn. You are both hopeless.

Post 3:

This is an aside. Reading your post was a walk into temptation, most of which I've resisted, but must indulge myself in the following. I await your replies to my previous posts.

England has an official religion: The Church of England.

Is it a racist state? Do bears you know what in the woods?

America doesn't have an official relgion. Never did. Is it a racist state? Do the children of polar bears you know what in the woods? Their aunts, uncles, cousins, et al?

I dunno. Ask any African American, ask any Native American, ask any Asian, any Middle Easterner, any Muslim, any Hindu, any Jew, etc., etc., etc.

Logic, facts.

Rick:

Post 2:

Again, empirical assertions require factual evidence. Factual evidence on institutionalized racism in Israel viz. Muslims.

I believe the other points I raised are infinitely clear and await your reply.

I'm particularly interested in facts on Israel's destruction of the "world economy."

Rick,

I'm still waiting for instances of racism against Israeli Muslims. This is a factual assertion, requiring a factual answer. An empirical question requires empirical evidence. Muslims in Israel work as doctors, professors, are the only Muslims in the Middle East who have absolute freedom of speech, vote in free elections for the candidates of their choice, are represented in the Parliament, etc.

Facts, Rick. Facts? This is just one instance where you provide none. Some, any, would be desirable. Just one or two facts, on any issue.

Then there is the matter of logic...

How does anything that may or may not occur in Israel, for instance, justify violence against European Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, Jews anywhere.

"Suppose, for instance," that people, who more and more identify America as Christian, who vilify Christianity in Mosq's everywhere started attacking at random every Christian they saw?

After all, this is the Christian country that is genociding Iraq and Afghanistan, actively compromising the sovereignty of Pakistan, supporting the hated HOuse of Saud, Mubarak, etc., etc.

What has one to do with the other? In what way does it explain or justify it?

Should this country start attacking Muslims everywhere at random? After all, by your logic, we'd be justified?
-------------------------
And Israel destroyed the world economy?!!

How, pray tell, did Israel do it? Explain, please.

The original Muslims were lied to by Mohammed. This bearing of false witness continues today via the sermons of the imams/clerics.

Baha'i "faith" members believe in Mohammed and therefor have also been duped. This does not mean that the members of this "faith" should also be bearers of false witness.

Where Farnaz Masumian is actually spending her day???:

"First Day of Ridvan Celebration 3:00PM

Location: Austin Baha'i Center

Devotional program in the main room will start at 3:00 PM and go till 3:30 PM. After devotional program everyone is invited to go outside for a fried chicken meal which will be served by the newly elected LSA members. There will be tables setup outside for dining and socializing. Kids can play outside on the rented inflatable equipment and in the playground. "

http://www.austinbahai.org/calendar/month.php

Farnaz noted: "

"I'm about to go to a meeting. I'll check back later in the day or tomorrow."

Hmmm, or is she celebrating the first day of Ridvan?

More bearing of false witness??

"The first day of Ridvan falling on 21st April, is a very special historic day for the Baha�is . �The Day of Supreme Felicity� as described by Bahaullah for the first day of Ridvan, marks the beginning of the 12-day festival of Ridvan. Ridvan is celebrated to commemorate the days of Bahaullah in the Garden of Ridvan after his exile from Baghdad. This is where he declared to some of the people gathered there that he was the messenger of God.

Though there is no particular ritual, most Bahai bodies hold elections for their governing bodies on the first day of Ridvan. This Holy Day is declared a holiday and the Bahai �s are not expected to work on this day. "

With respect to the first article that you reference: “Hamas's Bloody Hands” by Richard Cohen in today’s WP, it is very interesting. I read it this morning at Mike’s 610 Diner (on Route 610 in Stafford, VA :-) before going to work.

It chronicles some very brutal behavior on the part of Hamas toward some Gazan citizens who were suspected of either collaborating with the Israelis or were supporters of Mr. Abbas’ PNA. It was reminiscent of Taliban behavior in Pakistan in their brutal behavior toward those who do not accept their authority and accept Sharia law.

Welcome to the wonderful world of war…brought on in large part by the Israeli occupation of Palestine and invasion of Gaza.

“Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas executed 18 people, most of whom were accused of collaborating with Israel, sparing the expense and bother of a trial. Others were shot, maimed or beaten, not for allegedly collaborating with the enemy -- or, as is often the case, having a house or woman that a snitch covets -- but for belonging to the opposition political party, Fatah…”

“Since then, at least 14 more people have been executed extrajudicially, which is to say murdered. Some were also tortured…”

[Still this is a very small number compared to the 1000+ slaughtered by the US/Israeli war machine…many of whom were women and children.]

“This does not mean that Israel is above criticism. After all, it has made life unbearable for some Palestinians, supported illegal settlements [all settlements are illegal] in the West Bank, been too harsh in squeezing Gaza, and, maybe most important, it ought to get out of the West Bank -- for reasons of justice and for its own sake…”

“When Israelis talk of the practical difficulties of pulling out of the West Bank, they mean the likelihood that Hamas will oust Fatah and launch rockets into Israel. They are both concerned and appalled by a Hamas charter that, in part, reads like it could have been written by Hitler. Withdrawal is necessary and right, but it cannot be done naively and without the participation of the United States. It's going to take American peacekeepers. It is that simple. No Israeli can trust Hamas to keep the peace…”

I am fully with Rick on the issue of Israel as a racist state, and certainly as a religiously biased one. There are many racist states in the world, and culturally and religiously biased ones. Israel is perhaps a bit unique in that they claim to be a more open, democratic society as opposed to a closed one, but it does not appear so. They are quite racist.

Post 2: Farnaz2 | April 21, 2009 10:42 AM

1.___Rick, are you concerned about EU nations telling Jewish citizens how to protect themselves when walking about in the streets? Would it seem that an issue of racism lurks there, on more than one front? Can you imagine the US government saying the same to African Americans?

Response: Just guessing, but I suspect this was is response to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. Over a thousand Gazans were killed, many women and children, compared to maybe a dozen Israelis, some of them due to friendly fire incidents.

Couple this with the fact that there is a large Muslim population in Europe…with the fact that most Europeans correctly consider Israel to be a terrorist state...and a greater threat to world peace than Syria, Iran or North korea…

2.___Rick, would you consider the expulsion, deportations, false imprisonments, killings of Jews in Middle Eastern nations racist? Would you want to comment on the facts of their history as members of those nations?

Response: I believe that many of the deportations were the result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War…and understandably so.

Beyond that…scroll down…same as to Item 3 of your Post 1…trivial by comparison and does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III.

3.___Given your concern with racism would you want to comment on the treatment of minorities, e.g., Palestinians, in Egypt, for example? …On the Sudan? Would you care to discuss the Dalit, given your concerns with racism? Would you care to discuss Pakistani Christians?

What is your point? That Israel is not the only racist state in the world? I agree…but so what? This is trivial by comparison and does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III.

4.___ Would you care to discuss the US compromise of national sovereignty throughout the Middle East, to which we are now receiving a "reply"? …The drone killings of women and children in FATA?

Response: As you well know, I object to this behavior of my government and post on it frequently…usually on the WP Post Global blog on world affairs; since these travesties have more to do with our disastrous dependence on Middle Eastern oil, and have less of a religious component than our support of Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

5.___Then, since the topic concerns the US nonwar with Islam, I'd suggest you allow bloggers to return to it. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, about which you are certainly knowledgeable, the treatment of some Muslims in this country, and, on the other hand, the activities of extremists here, warrant discussion. Also, very relevant are the interference with national soverignty (the support for Mubarak comes to mind, the drone killings in FATA, etc.).

Response: On the contrary, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the threatened Israeli attack on Iran have everything to do with the US/Israel War on Islam.

Beyond that, see my comment above to your Item 4…

Post 1: Farnaz2 | April 21, 2009 10:19 AM

1___ “May I ask how many Jews serve in Middle Eastern Parliaments…”

Response: Probably none…but so what…what is your point? That Israel is not the only racist state in the world? I agree…but so what?

2.¬¬¬___ "May I ask why, during the period of the Clinton "peace" plan, not a single Israeli Palestinian went to Palestine? NOT ONE?”

Response: Why should they? There home is in Israel. Why would they want to leave it? It is the Israelis who want to expel them in so they can keep there racist state majority Jewish.

3.___ “May I ask why the curriculum not only in Palestine, but throughout the Middle East, contains the most viscious antisemitic material presented as fact? (Use google)

Response: Yes, but so what? What is your point…that there are anti-Semites in the world? I will cede that. Why do I not give that equal billing to the racist State of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, or threat to attack Iran? The answer should be obvious even to you. The grievance that you mention is trivial by comparison and does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III.

Furthermore, my country is not responsible for Arab anti-Semitism. We are responsible for the racist State of Israel and guarantee its security…for the moment.

4.___ “May I ask if Jewish doctors staff Muslim hospitals in Middle Eastern countries as Muslim doctors do in Israeli hospitals?’

Response: Same as to 3 above…trivial by comparison and does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III.

5.___ “May I ask how many Jewish students may attend whatever schools they wish to in Iran? Attend whatever colleges they wish to as is the case in for Muslims? ...Jewish professors in Middle Eastern Universities? …Muslim professors in Israeli Universities?

Response: Same as to 3 above…trivial by comparison and does not threaten the world economy or to bring on WW III.

6.___ “Rick, you haven't pointed out the "faults of racist Israel." What have you actually done? Think about it.”

Response: Scroll down.

Farnaz: “I know I've brought up several issues. It would be helpful if you would note which you are replying to…Kindly respond to them. Reference them separately, so that I (we) know what you are addressing. It would be helpful if you took them in order…”

Yes, you have flooded us with so many…most of which are quite trivial…or have obvious answers to any objective observer…that I will lump them together in groups and address them as such. To address them each…one at a time as you request…would needlessly tie up the thread with irrelevant trivia…as is your custom…and as you know, this behavior also calls your position into question.

"Rick, you haven't pointed out the 'faults of racist Israel.'"
_______________

I didn’t think it was necessary. Israel is a racist state by definition. Its own human-rights advocates call it that. The claim that Israel doesn't discriminate against non-Jews is absurd on its face.

Suppose, for example, the U.S. Congress passed a law that said the United States is a Christian, Anglo-Saxon nation and that any Christian, Anglo-Saxon person anywhere in the world is automatically eligible to become a citizen. Do you seriously think the Anti-Defamation League would not have a conniption fit and scream racism?

Well, Israel has such a law for Jews. Thus a Russian Jew, for example, can become a citizen, but a Palestinian driven out of his own country in 1948 cannot return.

Suppose, for another example, a group of wealthy people established the Christian National Fund. This fund would be used to purchase property. Once purchased, the property could never be sold to, rented to or leased to a non-Christian. Would that not be called discrimination? Well, there is such a fund called the Jewish National Fund, which has all of those restrictions on the property it owns. It played a great part in establishing Israel.

And, of course, if American officials routinely issued building permits to Christian Anglo-Saxons while denying them to Jews or other groups, that would be considered racist. And neighborhoods that denied non-Christians an opportunity to buy or rent would likewise be considered racist. All of these forms of discrimination are practiced in Israel against Palestinians.

The language that caused the United States and Israel to walk out of a 2001 UN conference was in a resolution passed by 3,000 non-governmental organizations in 44 regional and interest-based caucuses, according to the Indian Express. Some American news reports have made it seem like it was an Arab-only move. I'd say the United States is definitely in a minority, as it usually is when it defends Israel -- not on the basis of facts, but on the basis of the power of the Zionist lobby in the United States.

Farnaz,

Tic-Toc…it’s 9:00 pm…we are patiently waiting for you to produce my anti-Semitic post to Susan, the “half-Jew”.

Posted by: rick22407 | April 18, 2009 9:00 PM

“First, you have not challenged me to do so…”
_____________________

Farnaz,

You may consider this a direct challenge. I do not enjoy being called a racist, or a bigot, or an anti-Semite. Perhaps you will be so kind as to reproduce my offensive language. The clock is ticking…tic-toc…it is 8:00 pm… tic-toc…
Posted by: rick22407 | April 18, 2009 8:01 PM

Hi Stadtbear,

Thanks for you reply! Actually, I was referring to the reading matter on Jews that Saudi students are given from elementary school right up to the University, Saudis have exported this part of their "curriculum."

Talk to you later, I hope.

Farnaz

RICK:

Hope to hear back from you. Forgive the CAPs, but I don't want my posts to you to get lost in the thread.

Best,
Farnaz

As part of our 24/7 war against Islam and against the bearing of false witness:

Again Farnaz2 commentaries continue unabated. Farnaz2 is a disgruntled, delusional, part-time religion "teacher" and Baha'i "faith" follower from Texas i.e. one "Farnaz Masumian".
She has been identified by a "Phantom Islamic Group"/Google/Facebook analysis.

Aliases, some used below, by Farnaz are:

Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra aka stadtbear aka Spark1.

Farnaz was caught "red handed" using most of these aliases some threads ago.

An interesting posting in one reference by said Farnaz Masumian noted the following warning to her students:

"Students who violate University rules on scholastic dishonesty are subject to disciplinary
penalties, including the possibility of failure in the course and/or dismissal from the
University. Since such dishonesty harms the individual, all students, and the integrity of the
University, policies on scholastic dishonesty will be strictly enforced."

http://www.utexas.edu/ssw/eclassroom/syllabi/masumian/fl2008sw311.pdf

Apparently Ms. Masumian fails to live up to the standards required of her students.

Rick:

First, you have not challenged me to do so. Second, I have suggested You review the thread. Pick out your postings, yourself, and reflect on them. This is for YOU, Rick.

This, as you know, is also secondary. Cherry-picking won't do here nor will cherry-picking on my comment that you're cherry-picking. (It also calls your position into question.)

What is of concern is the present. I raised several issues. Again, engaging does not mean ignoring, reposting only what YOU want to say. Kindly, respond to them. Reference them separately, so that I (we) know what you are addressing. It would be helpful if you took them in order.

You need not reply at all to the substance of what I say. That is how you generally proceed. If you're goal is to engage, however, I would think you would wish to do so.

I'm about to go to a meeting. I'll check back later in the day or tomorrow. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on the matters I raised in the two lengthy postings, which, in good faith, I wrote to you.

Farnaz:
"Can you post on this? What are the policies on Jews entering Saudi Arabia?"

I do not read arabic, and of course the vast majority of textbooks in kingdom are written in that language, the violin textbook being the rare exception. I cannot comment on how Jews are treated in university texts, although I would think the obliteration of a Jewish author's name and bibliographical material about him in the book would be a good indication of what to expect!

I don't know what policies are now about allowing Jews in kingdom, nor do I understand why a Jew would want to go there except for business purposes. My experience in kingdom dated from mid 1981 to the end of 1983. I went originally for four months, and stayed two and a half years. At the time, Jews were not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Miraculously, exceptions were made for the Jewish members of the team I went with. Exceptions were also made for the two women who came as well. Saudis do NOT like to deal with western women, certainly not in legal matters such as contract negotiations which is what our two did. They were not allowed to wear dresses that exposed legs. They wore pants, at least in public.

I know the both the women and the three Jews that were with us were constantly a bit tense, and would only go out in public with the whole group. We lived in the Riyadh Marriot, where the staff was about 95% Pakistani, and therefore civil to all of us.

There were five prayer calls during the day. EVERYTHING came to a standstill during prayers. All businesses had to close. The religious police roamed the streets with great sticks with which they would beat anyone who had not closed his shop, or who was loitering about instead of praying. I made the mistake of photographing a couple of Saudi women, on the opposite side of a street I was walking on, and got chased for blocks by one of the religious police...who, mercifully, were always old men who couldn't ambulate with much speed. (note to CCNL: "ambulate" means to move from one place to another under your own steam.)

As I said, I don't know what customs and practices are today. I've heard that life, at least in Riyadh, has become quite modern and westernized. So, probably, have many customs and laws. I hated it there. The only reason I agreed to remain so long is that for every six weeks we spent in Kingdom, we got one week of paid r-n-r (vacation, CCNL) in any country in the world to which Saudia Airlines flew. So I made use of that.

“…Then reread your current post, your posts on the thread in which you referred to Susan as half-Jew. I'm not going to… return to that thread to pick out highlights amnong your comments…”

Please do…I have challenged you to do so and state that they do not exist…

We are all patiently waiting and have been so doing since 8:00 pm of April 18…

Tic-Toc…it’s 11:00 am, April 21…

Stadtbear:

Perhaps, you are familiar with what Saudi students read about Jews in their textbooks, as part of their regular curriculum?

Can you post on this? What are the policies on Jews entering Saudi Arabia?

Rick:

Please read the earlier of my two replies first.

Farnaz

Farnaz:
"Jewish professors in Middle Eastern Universities? Muslim professors in Israeli Universities?"

Reminds me of the hypocracy of the Saudis. In my 2 1/2 years in Saudi, I never once encountered a Saudi violinist. Yet, on a trip to the university bookstore in Riyadh, I found literally a shelf-full of Yehudi Menhuin's textbook on violin technique...and on and in EVERY copy, the "authorities" had used a magic marker to obliterate the author's name and any references to him in the text.

Rick:

These two articles are the most recent. However, they address killings, maimings, etc., all committed within a certain context. The rest, the delivery of spouses to their families in body bags, torture, etc., do not receive coverage. The same was and is the case with Fata, whose record on the subject is not good. I await your thoughts on these articles.

"Hamas's Bloody Hands"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/NewsSearch?sb=-1&st=torture+hamas&x=9&y=10
Article | 04/21/2009

Report: "Hamas killed, maimed dozens of opponents"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042000756.html
----------------------------
Rick, are you concerned about EU nations telling Jewish citizens how to protect themselves when walking about in the streets? Would it seem that an issue of racism lurks there, on more than one front? Can you imagine the US government saying the same to African Americans?

Rick, would you consider the expulsion, deportations, false imprisonments, killings of Jews in Middle Eastern nations racist? Would you want to comment on the facts of their history as members of those nations?
----------------------------
Given your concern with racism would you want to comment on the treatment of minorities, e.g., Palestinians, in Egypt, for example?

On the Sudan?

Would you care to discuss the Dalit, given your concerns with racism?

Would you care to discuss Pakistani Christians.
______________________________________
Would you care to discuss the US compromise of national sovereignty throughout the Middle East, to which we are now receiving a "reply"?

The drone killings of women and children in FATA?

Then, since the topic concerns the US nonwar with Islam, I'd suggest you allow bloggers to return to it. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, about which you are certainly knowledgeable, the treatment of some Muslims in this country, and, on the other hand, the activities of extremists here, warrant discussion. Also, very relevant are the interference with national soverignty (the support for Mubarak comes to mind, the drone killings in FATA, etc.).
-------------------------------
Rick,

When you post with an expressed desire to
engage a blogger, the idea is to engage;
therefore, I look forward to your replies on the foregoing (in this post and in my previous post to you).

I know I've brought up several issues. It would be helpful if you would note which you are replying to.

Rick,

May I suggest you take your study of alterity a bit further? Then reread your current post, your posts on the thread in which you referred to Susan as half-Jew. I'm not going to get into a war with you, exchange in name-calling, and, not return to that thread to pick out highlights amnong your comments.

Grasping a state of alterity goes much further than writing a dictionary-type definition. Were I you, I'd do more research. I'd also remember that Israel is a very diverse nation with citizens from all over the world. I'd recall that the second language of Israel is Arabic, that students must study it in school, that Israel is the only nation in the Middle East in which Muslims have absolute freedom of speech, vote in legitimate elections.

May I ask how many Jews serve in Middle Eastern Parliaments. May I ask why, during the period of the Clinton "peace" plan, not a single Israeli Palestinian went to Palestine? NOT ONE?

May I ask why the curriculum not only in Palestine, but throughout the Middle East, contains the most viscious antisemitic material presented as fact? (Use google)

May I ask if Jewish doctors staff Muslim hospitals in Middle Eastern countries as Muslim doctors do in Israeli hospitals?

May I ask how many Jewish students may attend whatever schools they wish to in Iran? Attend whatever colleges they wish to as is the case in for Muslims?

Jewish professors in Middle Eastern Universities? Muslim professors in Israeli Universities?

Rick, you haven't pointed out the "faults of racist Israel." What have you actually done? Think about it.

And in a bit, I'll be posting on the authorities Israel has to negotiate with.

In the meantime, review the thread I've referenced. Consider your language on that one and this. Consider, that on this blog, not this thread, you are almost alone in your rants against "racist" Israel. Consider why Israel, and Jews, the two are not synonymous (cf. Americans and Christians, whom many outside this country see as synonomous) are so particular with you.

Alterity is a philosophical term meaning "otherness", strictly being in the sense of the other of two (Latin alter). It is generally now taken as the philosophical principle of exchanging one's own perspective for that of the "other." The concept was established by Emmanuel Lévinas in a series of essays, collected under the title Alterity and Transcendence.

Thank you Farnaz. I, for one do appreciate your contributions, though I do often manage, it seems, to work up your ire…and the feeling is mutual.

I too miss the witty reposts from the renowned Atheist, Mr. Mark, the Moderate, the Jihadist, Victoria and don’t forget that rascal Duckphub.

Now back to business…you claim to save your polemic rejoinders for “racists” among others…yet you bring out some of your most ferocious attacks against bloggers who point out the obvious dangerous faults of the racist State of Israel. These are serious faults that are relevant to the current thread as they threaten world peace in the form of a possible US/Israeli “War against Islam” and WW III.

This is not irrelevant trivia but is making headline news most every day in the form of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and “the two-state solution” as well as the threatened Israeli attack on Iran that could shut down Persian Gulf shipping and further damage the world economy.

The war against Islam includes fighting its historical and theological flaws and errors many of which are the bearing of false witness by its founder, one, long dead, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab named Mohammend.

These words will hopefully ring in the ears of all followers of Islam and other "religions" like the Baha'i "Faith" who also honor this Arab- low life and then maybe someday there will be an awakening of morality and ethics amongst these severely brainwashed individuals.

Gaby,

I must log off. No harm done to me and, I hope, none to you.

This too shall pass (גם זה יעבור‎‎)

Goodnight, my friend.

Farnaz

Gaby,

If you scroll down to your "Hitler" poem, and other among your posts, you may find yourself instructing yourself to heed your own teachings.

I wouldn't worry about my losing discussions. Neither would I issue warnings to me, were I you, or for that matter, to anyone else. Bloggers don't much care for it, I'm sure you know.

Word to the wise, Gaby, and I suspect that within you there is wisdom. Never, patronize, never. Not me, not anyone. I'm telling you something you should reflect on, Gaby. On this thread, it extends beyond me. In this world, it, no doubt, does the same.

Two weeks ago, I met a Bangali cabdriver, with whom I had a fascinating conversation. We exchanged email addresses, something I never do with strangers. I have often been taken to task for quoting cabby's, newstand salespeople, etc., as if, somehow, by definition, they have less knowledge or intelligence than anyone else. In two weeks, I will be meeting a UN diplomat, whom I've been trying to get hold of for three years, and I'm not alone. The diplomat is the cabby's cousin.

Never patronize. Never think you understand identity. That is the key. That is how one develops true, not kneejerk or promiscuous empathy. That is how one develops a constructive politics of the performative. Alterity. (Search google.)

Alterity.

Farnaz,

I didn't mean to imply that you attacked me personally, what I meant to say was that you can come across as very hostile person when you feel that your point of view as not been respected as much as you feel deserving of.

Honey....always remember, opinions are like.....and everybody has one! And actually, under American law everyone entitled to their view AND voice it. No matter how much you would like to shut them up, they do have the upper hand...it's called freedom of speech.

So, my advice to you is, argue your point, but don't get drawn into discussions you will eventually lose.

Statbear:

I've never been to Saudi Arabia, in this case, praise be to Hashem.

However, I've known many who either worked there, among them Tanzanians and Palestinians. I've also got a good Pakistani friend whom must deal with the Saudis several times a year.

What you wrote shocks, but doesn't surprise me. How they treat foreign people is worth a thought. How they treat Palestinians is beyond human credibility. Then there are us J people whom they are relentlessly trying to destroy, as in kill, by funding terrorists. They are also funding the Taliban in Pakistan. Helping to kill Kurds is also a favorite Philanthropic effort of the Saudis.

If this country seriously wanted to do something about Pakistan without genociding NWFP (which wouldn't go over well with most Americans, let alone the rest of the world), it must start by stopping the funds going to murderers via Saudi Bank in Manhattan.

That would be in New York City. Saudi Bank, New York City, New York, USA.

And, America, it's late in the day.

Gaby,

"When people are attacked, they attack back, that is the nature of the beast!"

Yes, and no. If you'll scroll down, and read my earlier reply to you, you'll see that I'm not attacking back.

Polemical rejoinders are ONE strategy among several others that I use with sexists, racists, xenophobes, etc. But it is a strategy, Gaby, for I am not a "beast" and neither are you.

Take it easy. Be well.

Farnaz

Gaby,

I really have no idea whence these sudden attacks on me. The last time I pointed this out to you, you informed me you weren't "attacking" me.

Maybe, you should reread your most recent post to me. I understand that you're involved in some kind of squabble with Stadtbear, but that has nothing to do with me.

Please, understand, I wish the very, very best for you now,as I believe I've said and shown, but I'm getting very tired of this sort of thing, have my own problems, etc.

Sincerely,
Farnaz

Farnaz you said:

"Discuss, not rage at or vilify one another. What is happening in this world? We live in a culture of fear and rage, of cultural ignorance, and it's getting worse day by day."

When people are attacked, they attack back, that is the nature of the beast! You are as much at fault for instigating and attacking as are others (at timnes, me included)

Although you come across as a highly intelligent human being, when you let your guard down, you are just as brazen, racist, and intolerable as CCNL, Spidey and the like.

You can go from a nice (wo)man to a harpy in 2 seconds flat, and it does not become you!

And that was my 2 cents worth.

So for whatever it's worth Farnaz, maybe you need to bite your tongue at times if you want to be accepted by polite company.

Double-whoops! Our College Attorney is a SHE, not a HE.

%:(

Stadtbear:

Whoops! Meant to write, "need not be spoken."

Happy will I be when this mess is over and somebody, when s/he who has been charged with minding the customers who enter the store, starts minding.

Until not too long ago, Susan Jacoby's blogs invited some of the most erudite, knowledgeable people it has ever been my pleasure to read. Things took a tumble. Some like the atheist, Mr. Mark, announced his departure due to his inablitlity to deal with what he called "racism," mainly, he wrote, on the part of "Christians."

Where is there a blog in which earnest people can seriously discuss religion, atheism, agnosticism, and the various domains of existence?

Discuss, not rage at or vilify one another.
What is happening in this world? We live in a culture of fear and rage, of cultural ignorance, and it's getting worse day by day.

Farnaz

PS. Don't know if you read my reply to your post on Saint Saens, before it was removed.

Statbear:

In the legal sense, yes, and often in everyday discourse. However "slander" in the nonlegal sense in which I used it need not be written:
___________________
slan·der (slndr)
n.
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
___________________________________________
Btw., my original (subsequently) removed postings on this issue were written in less haste, although I may have used "slander" in them as well. "Libel" really was at issue here, at least, according to our College Attorney, a "swell" gal, actually. However, he is the second person who informed me that it would never have come to that.

Demands for published apologies? Quite likely--for any number of reasons.

"Today, perhaps ironically, is Adolph Hitler's birthday."

Really???? And who on earth gives a d*mn....may he rot with the rest of those who perpetrated inspeakable evil on the world.....Stalin, Idi Amin, Attila the Hun, Mao, ETC, ETC, you name them they will be rotting with him!

Remember I said what goes around comes around...

CCNL

You wrote, "How does"meeting" god, the trinity, satan and other spirits of the "netherworld" any different than seeing these "invisibles"?"

I believe I spelled it out rather simply and straightforward.

You also wrote, "Again Thomas, "The Hallucinator" Baum is a major bearer of false witness in our war against such persons when he claims to have met/seen these things which have no visible features."

As far as "our war", I suppose that means you and others, do you know who the "others" are?

If you can find a bible that doesn't have most of it ripped out, you should be able to see that the "religious" of Jesus's day and you seem to have quite a bit in common.

If Jesus is not God-Incarnate and if Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity, in the true sense, does not exist.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

EDBYRONADAMS

You wrote, "Why is it that God is running this experiment?"

Do you think that life is an experiment? God is not some kind of "mad scientist" nor is God anything like what some think that He is.

Whether or not you believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate or not or believe that Jesus really ever existed, the story of His Life is one of someone being treated rather shabbily, to put it mildly, for doing much good and for speaking Truth to power, in this case "religious power".

Jesus, actually went thru more than the physical death that so many think of and He went thru what He did so that ALL of humanity would ultimately be in the Kingdom.

You also wrote, " Why does such a large God have such a poor sense of perspective to give us our threescore and ten to decide the fate of our soul for eternity?"

As I have mentioned above, God's Plan is for everyone to be with Him. This does not mean that we are not responsible for what we do, in fact we will all be judged, what can you or anyone else find wrong with this?

I include those that call themself "Christian" in the above question insofar as some do not seem to have a clue what being a "Christian" is suppose to be.

Also, considering that God created time, one could say that God is turning eternity into time, as in everlasting, the seventh day will arrive but the night of the sixth day will come first.

As I have said before, Divine Justice and Divine Mercy are two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

Some seem to want Divine Mercy for themselves and Divine Justice for others whereas they go hand in hand.

God is not the vile, putrid piece of garbage that some that know His Name think that He Is, not even close.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Farnaz:

Actually its libel, not slander. Libel is written defamation. Slander is spoken.

The following comment was posted earlier today on another blog asking the same questions posed by Susan Jacoby.

Today, perhaps ironically, is Adolph Hitler's birthday.

-----------------

mono1 Author Profile Page :

islam is in war with jahilia(ignorance).

not only since day one is in the business of knoking ignorance and ignorant heads but this will continue till the last day.

islam is not only here to stay but here to have the upper hand simply because its the religion of the creator god .

1-islam is not a culture that come and go or a civilization that live and die by a better civilization.

2-the messeage that the creator god send to mohamed(s)to mankind every where until the last day ,is not meant to be kept in the church box or the place of worship box or to be separated from the state and governement and the rest of mankind ,the messeage is humankind and international and is coming to you whether you like it or not not because the *muslims extremeists* desire so but because the creator god desire so ,if you want to accept it fine if you do not at least do not stop it because you will be in trouble,first with the creator god second with those sincere muslim s who carry the message of islam.

george bush carried his *delusion* all the way to iraq? why is odd for muslims who carry the message of the creator god to africa or america or even to the moon if commanded by the creator god?

islam in his war with jahilia uses 2 techniques,

1-islam works on knoking false belives and false dietyies and idols,islam already knoked it in meca ,knoked it in perisa,knoked it in rome ,knoked it every where in this planet earth and will knok it again and again till the last day,go around the planet earth you will never find a better knoker .

2-islam uses forces if neccessary if any one or any group try to block its way thru ,if you do not agree with it at least leave it alone because it will over come you at least ideologicaly ,come with better than islam if you can afford one this is the only way to bolck islam .

its a war no matter how you look at it at least its a theological and ideological war.

Susan Jaoby, David Waters:

I don't have the time to go hunting through this blog for vilifications by CCNL of Farnaz Masumian, Ph.D., UT. NB: not only do they include the comments quoted in my previous post, but remarks on her book, as well.

As an academic, I believe I made clear how seriously I take this sort of thing. If CCNL, as I mentioned, had posted my cv, accused me as he did her, made disparaging comments on my books (which he would not have read), it would be hilarious, and I'd have a blast emailing my colleagues, friends, et al, who know me and my work--all this preceding apologies from this blog, WaPo, etc. For me, it would not only be fun, but good publicity.

But I am not Farnaz Masumian. We are at different stages in our careers. Again, I urge you to look throughout this blog for whatever from CCNL had written that could be injurious to her reputation.

This sort of thing, of which I've seen much too much, not merely on blogs but in national newspapers is abhorrent to me, as I'm sure it is to both of you.

Farnaz

To Susan Jacoby, David Waters

David Waters writes:

Commenters,
Please restrict your comments to the subjects of the posts by panelists. Comments that stray off topic will be removed.
The management
Posted by: David Waters | April 20, 2009 10:51 AM
____________________
I see that among other posts, you have removed mine concerning CCNL's remarks on the very real Farnaz Masumian, Ph.D., UT, of whom we all know, thanks to CCNL. As I remarked in my post, which referenced yours, his characterizing her as a member of an "Islamic Shadow Group," a "disgruntled academic," etc., was certainly slanderous, could in my view cause difficulty for her, etc. My hope remains that she has been informed of his unfortunate drivel and is taking whatever she deems necessary in order to protect her reputation. This whole affair was and is disturbing. It should not have been permitted to go on for as long as it did, but I'm pleased to see it coming to an end.

One post on Dr. Masumian remains on this thread. I would suggest it be removed immediately. There is more to say on the matter of slander, in general, but removing the offensive post (scroll down) would be a good step (in specific).

I would recommend examining Susan Jacoby's previous thread, as well, since I don't recall whether CCNL posted there as well. If, Mr. Waters, you haven't combed through the rest of this current blog to find CCNL's other vilifications of Farnaz Masumian, you might wish to do so.

I am most grateful to Mr. Waters, for his promise to remove irrelevant postings from this thread. I am hopeful that by "irrelevant," he means to include homophobia, racism, sexism, etc., viscious attacks by bloggers, that, from this affair, CCNL, AND those who removed the all-but-one-I-believe slanderous, potentially libelous remarks on Dr. Masumian have learned something.

If Mr. Waters has not examined the other threads, I would urge him to do so. CCNL posted on Dr. Masumian throughout on this blog.

As for me, I post under my middle and maiden name, as I have mentioned, several times throughout the years.

Kindly remove:

"Again, a sincere apology by Farnaz (Masumian) and a promise to stop using aliases (Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra) and straw men (Stadtbear and Spark1) in the future would be a great first step in giving any credence to said Farnaz/Ms. Masumian's comments in the future
Posted by: CCNL | April 15, 2009 11:39 AM"

Best,
Farnaz Mansouri

How does"meeting" god, the trinity, satan and other spirits of the "netherworld" any different than seeing these "invisibles"?

Again Thomas, "The Hallucinator" Baum is a major bearer of false witness in our war against such persons when he claims to have met/seen these things which have no visible features.

Stadtbear sure gets around, doesn't he??

THOMASBAUM

"I do not think that you will find the "how" all that important. The "why" is important tho because if we didn't have free will than we would be nothing more than fancy robots or puppets on a string or words to that effect."

Okay, let's stick with the "why" questions. Why is it that God is running this experiment? He pokes one eye out so that he won't see what the ants are doing once they start eating the apple? Why does such a large God have such a poor sense of perspective to give us our threescore and ten to decide the fate of our soul for eternity?

God may be mysterious but the God you met is too crazy for me.

CCNL

You wrote, "You are a major violator considering your false witnesses to seeing god, the trinity and satan and "lord only" knows who else!!!!"

I did not say that I saw God, Who Is a Trinity and a Being of Pure Love, I said that I met God.

I also did not say that I saw satan, I said that I met satan.

Time will tell, don't worry God is not even close to being anything like what some of those that know His Name think that He Is.

There are many that say that they speak in God's Name and yet about the only thing some of them know about God is His Name.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas, "The Hallucinator" Baum,

You ask about waging war against all bearers of false witness and who these offenders are.

You are a major violator considering your false witnesses to seeing god, the trinity and satan and "lord only" knows who else!!!!

To David Waters:

Thank You!!!!!

GABY1

Thank you for your reply. One day ALL will know that God cares for ALL of us and that God is not even close to be anything like what some of those that know His Name think that He is.

Just to repeat myself, God is not a He, a She or an It but is a Being of Pure Love even tho God-Incarnate was a Male.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

By the way, whether I address my comments to one or all or to no one in particular, they are intended for ALL OF HUMANITY.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

EDBYRONADAMS

You wrote, "How did he do that anyway? How can an all knowing God make himself not know?"

God is God, I'm not. When you meet God you can ask Him if you like but I do not think that you will find the "how" all that important. The "why" is important tho because if we didn't have free will than we would be nothing more than fancy robots or puppets on a string or words to that effect.

I believed in God before I met God but I did not know that God is real until I met God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

STADTBEAR

You wrote, " Did he appear to you in a vision?" No. "

"Did he bodily assume you into his heavenly presence?" No.

"What did he say to you?" When God the Father, as the First Person of the Trinity is referred to, came into my heart, He didn't say a word.

When the Holy Spirit came into my body, He didn't say a word either but He did reveal to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

"What does he look like?" I didn't say that I saw God, I said that I met God.

"What was he wearing?" Look at above answer.

"Does he have a penis...although I cannot imagine his having a need for one since he is capably of creating in other ways...."

As I have said many times before, God is not a He, a She or an It but is a Trinity and is a Being of Pure Love even tho God-Incarnate was a Male, I do use the male pronoun for the simple reason that it is convenient.

Do you think that we create? And by the above statement of yours, if you do than do you think that it is the male that creates? God created us male and female to reproduce not to create, God is the Creator.

"tell us all Thomas. That must have been an exciting experience.", I already have many times and it was totally unexpected and to put it mildly, beyond words, but don't worry you will meet God one day also.

As I have said many times, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Thanks for asking.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Commenters,

Please restrict your comments to the subjects of the posts by panelists. Comments that stray off topic will be removed.

The management

Rick,

I was pretty sure that the 'pure' thing was meant tongue in cheek. Thanks for verifying, and no need to apologize. I am, of course, painfully aware of the horrific side of the Hebrew scriptures. But as a Christian, I follow the Gospels first and foremost, and they are not known for blood and guts. A good argument could be made that Jesus was a pacifist.

Susan,

The Post might want to consider closing a thread after a certain number of posts. It always seems that the first few might be relevant and then the conversation takes a metaphorical jump off a cliff.

CCNL

You wrote, "The "war" against dishonestly is not only against Islam but is against all those bearing false witness."

And whom do you presume to be "bearing false witness"?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

spidermean2 wrote:

"Actually, America is both a Christian nation and a non-Christian nation. "

Oaf. Get your mother to read the constitution to you, and ask her to pronounce the bigger words very slowly.

spark1 wrote:

"You invite the readers, to read out of context taken sentences from Quran and I invite you and the readers to read Al-Quran itself and then decide the true meanings of its verses."

Oh, I hardly think anything was taken out of context. It is what it is. "Out of context" is always the first line of defense of those who don't like being quoted or seeing quotes from works they consider precious.

By all means, I encourage anyone who is interested to read the Q'uran. I'll be happy to lend them my copy, which I bought from the Marriott Hotel in Riyadh, where I lived for two and a half years. And in the lobby of which I watched a Saudi woman be stabbed to death by her husband, because he saw her take a piece of paper from another man, and refused to give it to him when he demanded it.

Spidermean2 aka Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The reality of it all is that the "pew sitters" and "bowers" are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the "pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies" are finally buried in the myth piles.

How can we be a "Christian" nation when an estimated 68% of Americans believe that "truth" is relative and not absolute?

GENEVA — The first United Nations conference in eight years to address the issue of racism convened Monday without delegations from the racist State of Israel, the United States and several important allies, but with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran as a headline speaker…

Arminius:

"Only we atheists are pure."

Mind elaborating on that one, Rick? Seems like a rather elitist statement about superior morality.
_______________________
My apologies Armenius…the last thing I want to be is an elitist who claims to have a superior morality.

That was just a friendly jibe at our fellow followers of the Abrahamic faiths relative to the violent nature of certain verses in the Holy Word of God; e.g.:

1. ___And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. Exodus 21:17

2. ___ And slay them [infidels] wherever ye catch them. Quran 2:191

3. ___ etc.

stadtbear

You invite the readers, to read out of context taken sentences from Quran and I invite you and the readers to read Al-Quran itself and then decide the true meanings of its verses.

Actually, America is both a Christian nation and a non-Christian nation. But it is prophesied that God will destroy the non-Christian part.

In just a few years, the prophecy will be fulfilled just like how previous prophecies were fulfilled.

The fact that a big portion of America are acting foolishly like legalizing gay marriage and embracing Darwinian evolution are a testament that the Bible is accurate.

Whom will it destroy then if all are Christians?

"Only we atheists are pure."

Mind elaborating on that one, Rick? Seems like a rather elitist statement about superior morality.

Susan, please forgive me, but I just have to do this:

"Hitler
Has only got one ball
Goering
Has two but they are small
But Stadtbear
Well poor old Stadtbear
Yes, poor old Stadtbear
Has no balls at all!"

"That is very true of course. Only we atheists are pure. The same violent behavior is demanded of the followers of the Christian and Jewish God."

Yup, we be the PURE people! Although, of course I have to make a stand for Arminius, who subscripes to the Christian religion, but is not into the hardcore, evangelical, push it into your face kind of religion.

What a nice, gentle human being he is.

What is your point with the Ethical Atheist link Stadtbear…that “the teachings of the Koran are, in fact, very violent. They call for killing the infidels or those who do not follow Islam and the Koran. The quotes below from the Koran are shocking and will likely make you come to the conclusion that "No, Islam is NOT a peaceful religion." It seems to be a recurring theme with religion: intolerance, hatred, animosity and discrimination…”

That is very true of course. Only we atheists are pure. The same violent behavior is demanded of the followers of the Christian and Jewish God.

"That is a change to your original post."

It is an addendum that changes nothing about the original post. But you are entitled to your opinions.

Colinnicholas wrote:

"As Blaise Pascal wrote;"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

Two thousand years of the christer's convictions, most notably the RCC, certainly prove he was right.

Stadtbear:

“…That radical islam may consume and become the major part of the religion is not unthinkable…”
________________

That is a change to your original post. Originally: “It is not inconceivable that radical islam… could acquire nuclear attack weapons…”

With that clarification I agree with your statement; but that is a mighty big IF. Do you have a reference to support the claim that radical Islam is growing, by how much, and what percentage of the 1 billion Muslims are known to be radical?

This blog badly needs something interesting.
So here is something interesting.
--------------------------------------
"The most common of all follies," wote H.L.Mencken, "is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind."

In culture after culture, people believe that the soul lives on after death, that rituals can change the physical world and divine the truth, and that illness and misfortune are caused and alleviated by spirits, ghosts, saints, fairies, angels, demons, cherubims, djinns, devils and gods.
According to polls, more than a quarter of today's (1997) Americans believe in witches, almost half believe in ghosts, half believe in the devil, half believe that the book of Genesis is literally true, sixty-nine percent believe in angels, eighty-seven percent believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, and ninety-six percent believe in a god or a universal spirit. How does religion fit into a mind that one might have thought was designed to reject the palpably not true?"

The common answer - that people take comfort in the thought of a benevolent shepherd, a universal plan, or an afterlife -- is unsatisfying, because it only raises the question of why a mind would evolve to find comfort in beliefs it can plainly see are false. A freezing person finds no comfort in believing he is warm; a person face-to-face with a lion is not put at ease by the conviction that it is a rabbit.

What is religion? Like the psychology of the arts, the psychology of religion has been muddied by scholars' attempts to exalt it while understanding it. Religion cannot be equated with our higher, spiritual, humane, ethical yearnings ( though it sometimes overlaps with them).
The Bible contains instructions for genocide, rape, and the destruction of families, and even the Ten Commandments, read in context, prohibit murder, lying, and theft only within the tribe, not against outsiders. Religions have given us stonings, witch burnings, crusades, inquisitions, jihads, fatwas, suicide bombers, abortion-clinic gunmen, and mothers who drown their sons so that they can be happily reunited in Heaven.

As Blaise Pascal wrote;"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

"How The Mind Works" by Steven Pinker. pub.WWNorton & Co. 1997. p554-555.

Spark1 wrote:

"On the other hand:"

Precisely. And if you take a look at http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/islam_infidels.html you will see exactly what the Q'uran requires him to be willing to do to achieve those "characteristics."

Go Susan, go Susan, go Susan.....Yeah!!!!

Here is your cheering squad!!!!

Good for you, please keep you bloggers in line!!!!

"Your hypothesis is that to be at war with radical Islam is to be at war with Islam. This is only true if you equate radical Islam with Islam; that is the flaw in your logic."

That is your perception of my "hypothesis". I posited no hypothesis, and I specifically said 'Consider that radical islam, throughout the world, is gaining numbers and power.' That radical islam may consume and become the major part of the religion is not unthinkable.

part 2

On the other hand:

The moral life of a Muslim will always be filled with godliness, piety, righteousness and truthfulness. He will live in the world with the belief that God alone is the master of all that whatever he and other men possess has been given by God, that the powers he wields are only a trust from God, that the freedom he has been endowed with is not to be used indiscriminately, and that it is in his own interest to use it in accordance with God’s Will. He will constantly keep in view that one day he will have to return to the Lord and submit an account of his entire life. The sense of accountability will always remain firmly implanted in his mind and he will never behave in a carefree and irresponsible way.

He will be the most honored and the most respected one. No one can excel him in this respect. How can humiliation ever visit a person who is not prepared to bow his head or even spread his hand for any favor before anyone except God the Almighty, the Sovereign of the universe?

He will be most powerful and effective. No one can be more powerful than he-for he fears none but God and seeks blessings from none but Him. What power can make him deviate from the Right Path? What wealth can buy his faith? What force can mould his conscience? What power can coerce his behaviour?

He will be the most wealthy and rich. No one in the world can be richer or more independent than he-for he will live a life of austerity, satiety, and contentment. He will be neither sensualist, nor indulgent, nor greedy. He will be contented with whatever he earns fairly and honestly and even if heaps of ill-gotten wealth are put before him he will not even like to look at them, to say the least of availing them. He will have the peace and contentment of heart-and what can be a greater wealth than this?

He will be the most revered, popular, and the loved one. No one can be more lovable than he-for he lives a life of charity and benevolence. He will do justice to all and sundry, discharge his duties honestly, and work for the good of others sincerely. People's hearts would be naturally drawn towards him and they would like him, love him, and revere him.

He will be the most trusted and honored one. No one can be trustworthy than he-for he will not betray his trust, nor will he go astray from righteousness: he will be true to his word, and straightforward and honest in his dealings. He will be fair and just in all his affairs, for he is sure that God is ever- present, ever vigilant. Words fail to describe the credit and goodwill, which such a man commands. Can there be anyone who will not trust him?-such is the life and character of a Muslim.

If you understand the true character of a Muslim, you will be convinced that he cannot live in humiliation, abasement, or subjugation. He is bound to prevail and no power on earth can overwhelm him or subdue him. For Islam inoculates in him the qualities which cannot be overshadowed by any charm or illusion.

Stadtbear:

“…Consider that radical islam, throughout the world, is gaining numbers and power. It is not inconceivable that radical islam (which supports the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed, could acquire nuclear attack weapons, however small. If/when it does, the US may very well find that it necessarily IS at war with islam…”
_______________
Your hypothesis is that to be at war with radical Islam is to be at war with Islam. This is only true if you equate radical Islam with Islam; that is the flaw in your logic.

stadtbear Author Profile Page :

Even High School American History students are capable of recognizing that, while the majority of Americans (for the moment) are christians, The United States is not a 'christian nation.'

But to suggest that the United States will NEVER be at war with islam is entirely premature. Consider that radical islam, throughout the world, is gaining numbers and power. It is not inconceivable that radical islam (which supports the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed, could acquire nuclear attack weapons, however small. If/when it does, the US may very well find that it necessarily IS at war with islam.

AllOne Author Profile Page :

Stadtbear,

Please share where you find in the Quran that it says, as you stated, "the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed."

abhab Author Profile Page :

Allone asks:
“Please share...

(Quran 9:29,)” Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
.
This is just one of the many such jewels that incite against the non-Muslims, as listed in the cite below.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/islam_infidels.html

Stadtbear:

ABHAB, thank you for the website listing. I've bookmarked it. You answered Allone better than I could have done...I haven't looked at the Q'uran since 1983!

Nice reply to the hijackers, Susan. Your fans are with you!

YOU CAN ONLY LIBEL REAL PEOPLE

All of you people babbling about "libel" on the Web are, once again, showing your absolute ignorance of the real world of publishing and the laws that govern it. You cannot commit libel against someone whose identity is unknown. By definition, libel suits involve damage to the reputation of an individual. Your reputations, such as they are, cannot be damanged because no one knows who you are.

In the United States, the standards for libel are very high even in the real world. Any public figure is fair game for commentary; that is why Barack Obama cannot sue someone for libel because they say he is not an American citizen. The only way a public figure defend himself or herself against lies is with the truth.

What most of you are talking about would not be libelous even if you were identifiable. Blogs are opinion forums, and a negative opinion of someone is not libel. But I guess when you only express opinions anonymously, you don't have to know anything about the law.

Again, a sincere apology by Farnaz (Masumian) and a promise to stop using aliases (Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra) and straw men (Stadtbear and Spark1) in the future would be a great first step in giving any credence to said Farnaz/Ms. Masumian's comments in the future.

I, too, wish that Obama would begin to focus more on the secular nature of the constitution. Perhaps even citing it, occasionally.

It remains to be seen whether his overtures will be met with any sort of reciprocity. It's easier to recruit terrorists when you have a lot of Texas bravado to inflame the passions of those who might otherwise reject extremist nonsense. Any success he has, will not be noticeable for another generation.

Stadtbear,

…Do you know anything about how libel figures in blogging?...

Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 18, 2009 7:16 PM
_________________________

Poor Farnaz…you get your panties into such a twist over a case of being accused of multiple postings under multiple aliases. You are such an easy mark. You get so emotional… threaten the dastardly CC with law suits… prompting him to gleefully terrorize you all the more.

And such a trivial offense it is. After all, very few of us reveal our true identities on this thread, preferring to post anonymously.

And surely you must know you are guilty of overloading this thread with countless multiple postings on the most irrelevant subject matter imaginable; from literature, to poetry, to music, to…you name it.

And yet you do not hesitate to attack your fellow bloggers, accusing them of everything from racism, anti-Semitism… to whatever happens to cross your vindictive little mind.

You should hope that we bloggers cannot be sued for slandering and falsely accusing our co-bloggers, or you would be a very busy defendant indeed.

You have your partner in crime’s email address; so why don’t you just do all a favor and take your petty garbage off-line?

Oh, good grief, Rick! A cracker I am not, nor even a redneck. I am an import from East Tennessee, a Mountain Man - a much different and superior breed! (LOL)

"And, Gaby, what goes around most certainly does not always come around. I should know."

Oh, then you are mistaken, Farnaz! It most certainly does! Maybe not in the timeframe you wish it to, but it will come around! And then people wonder, what the heck brought this on? Well, I know what brought it on, it's the reaction to an action, good or not!

Oh, and don't forget: "Don't turn around, the Golem is about!"

Hi Arminius, my friend!!!

Actually tonight I am the one fading fast!

Rick,

Arminius is not a cracker....he, is a crackerjack, and a very good one at that. LOL

Have a good night, all!

I am not attacking you, Farnaz. I rarely attack anyone!

I once saw an old film you might remember, I don't know the title of it any more, I just just a child, but I think it was supposed to depict Prague or Warsaw and the Jewish comminity there.

One mother said to her child: "Dreh Dich nicht um, der Golem geht rum!"

Pretty soon, you saw a grandfather herding his family into safety and he said in a loud whisper: "Dreht Euch nicht um, der GOLEM geht rum!"

And so the Jewish population was save because the Golem killed anything in his path once looked upon.

It appears there are quite a few Golems on this and other blogs, and frankly I am tired of them.

So don't look at me attacking you, look at the posts and see who is a Golem and who is a Mensch.

All my best.

Gaby

Armenius,

You are a genius...for a Cracker...

Not bad, Arminius, but scroll down for Ashbery. He does it for a living. :)

Outta here.

We have here a fine writer named Susan
Who is truly a great icon of reason
And like a good blog host
She values creativity the most
But creativity, it seems, is no longer in season.

Here is an interesting article from today’s Times of London

“Israel stands ready to bomb Iran's nuclear sites…”

What do Farnaz and Stadbear think would happen if Israel follows through with the threat? Will Israel attack Iran? Will Iran shut down Persian Gulf shipping? What will it mean to the world economy?

Farnaz:

hope you liked the Asbery poem!

Well, I'm digesting it. And I need to go give some play time to the puppy. Enjoyed it. Have a good evening.

Rick, Dear,

A parting word.

You write, "The subject is not the Holocaust…or poetry…or literature…or CCNL or Gaby bashing…"

Again, I did not bring up the topic of the Holocaust, nor did I bring on CCNL, and I most certainly did not engage in "Gaby bashing."

Is this the best you can do to attack me? Ugh.

Reread Susan's essay if you want to post on topic. Try next to do so, dear.

Stadtbear:

Daughter has just returned, and must be off. I've enjoyed chatting with you--hope you liked the Asbery poem!

Farnaz

"But I'm really not into "gay"...the scene, the theatre, the lifestyle. It is a very small, really insignificant, part of who I am. I have Andy, and we are inclined to live apart from the gay community. I'm much more interested in the early lives of gay men, their experiences as children and young men, their family affiliations or lack of them."

I think I know what you mean, but there are many lifestyles led by gay people, no? I'm thinking of a couple we socialize with. They have both gay and straight friends, are politically active, but that's about it. The same is true for two lesbian couples with whom we socialize.

Now, of course, essays, short stories, etc., written by gays and straights by and about gay children and adults are part of the curriculum.
It took awhile.

Rick Dear,

By all means, post away.

Stadtbear,

We crossed posts again! Sorry!

Stadtbear,

Ashberry writes on many themes. I hope to god I didn't sound patronizing. But, you know, identity is an important thing (duh), so, although not of Euroopean ancestry, I am Jewish, and surely that is a factor in my reading of Kunitz and Pinsky. Not the only factor, of course, and prefer the former to the latter. As for Ashberry, sometimes, I find him almost unbearably difficult. Not in this one though:

THE GRAPEVINE

John Ashbery

Of who we and all they are
You all now know. But you know
After they began to find us out we grew
Before they died thinking us the causes

Of their acts. Now we'll not know
The truth of some still at the piano, though
They often date from us, causing
These changes we think we are. We don't care

Though, so tall up there
In young air. But things get darker as we move
To ask them: Whom must we get to know
To die, so you live and we know?

Rick22407

In case you haven’t noticed, the subject of this thread is “…are we at war with Islam…” of which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is key. We all should be fixated on this issue.

I have noticed that you post on whatever is on your mind. Is someone preventing you from posting on the supposed war with Islam? I don't think so.

And quite frankly I for one do not require your advice about what "we all" should be "fixated" on.

"Ah, Stadtbear, no matter how little you may think you know about poetry, you surely know more about it than I do about music."

Oh, I've read poetry, largely from such things as Norton Anthologies...as required in classes as an undergrad. I've just never gotten into it.

And somewhere, I think I have a small collection of "gay" poetry. But I'm really not into "gay"...the scene, the theatre, the lifestyle. It is a very small, really insignificant, part of who I am. I have Andy, and we are inclined to live apart from the gay community. I'm much more interested in the early lives of gay men, their experiences as children and young men, their family affiliations or lack of them.

Stadtbear:

I'm thinking of the great American poet, John Ashberry. He, I think would interest you, partly due to his connection with Auden. Many years ago, when Auden was judging for a poetry prize, he wrote to Ashberry and asked him to apply. Auden claimed that given the importance of the award, he'd received nothing worthy of winning.

The award brought Ashberry to well-deserved national attention.

Farnaz

Farnaz,

In case you haven’t noticed, the subject of this thread is “…are we at war with Islam…” of which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is key. We all should be fixated on this issue.

The subject is not the Holocaust…or poetry…or literature…or CCNL or Gaby bashing…

Ah, Stadtbear, no matter how little you may think you know about poetry, you surely know more about it than I do about music.

Might you be, at all interested, in poets who wrote on gay themes? (I'm thinking of male poets, one in particular, I could recommend)

And, Gaby, what goes around most certainly does not always come around. I should know.

But Judaism doesn't with for that, and although an atheist, I don't wish for it either.

Gaby,

But remember always, please, that I have always believed what goes around comes around.

Every action has a reaction, hatred begets hatred and violence begets violence.
_______________
I've always been aware of this. If you read my posts you would know this. Speaking of which, whence this sudden attack on me?

We crossed postings! What about poetry, aside from Auden?

Well, to tell the sad truth, other than Auden I have not paid a lot of attention to poetry.

Rick,

That thread was riddled by you with unfortunate posts. Past is past. Let it go.

Surely, there is something other than Jews upon which you can gaze.

Farnaz,

I wish you well too, as I do for the whole of humanity!

But remember always, please, that I have always believed what goes around comes around.

Every action has a reaction, hatred begets hatred and violence begets violence.

Stadtbear:

We crossed postings! What about poetry, aside from Auden?

Here is the “offending” exchange from Susan’s January 13 post…others may access it from the archives and judge for yourselves how offensive it was.
____________________

Susan Jacoby:

“I realize that this week's "On Faith" question wasn't about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but the endless and obsessive nature of the posts on the subject only confirms what I said in response to last week's question--that there is almost no hope of any lasting peaceful resolution. The sheer intransigence of so many of these posts, with endless quotations from the Bible, really exemplifies what well-intentioned proponents of peaceful solutions are up against.

If I were Barack Obama, I'd concentrate on some easier problem--say, reversing the collapse of our economy or stopping global warming. Unfortunately, no one can let the Middle East stew in its own juice because all of this craziness, unchecked, has the potential to turn into a world war.”

Posted by: Susan_Jacoby | January 15, 2009
______________________--

Rick22407:

“…Susan, I agree with Farnaz for once. You overstate the “sheer intransigence” and “endless quotations from the Bible” that exemplify what “well intentioned proponents of peaceful solutions are up against”. Perhaps you could list them. Is this because you, being half Jew yourself, are hypersensitive on this issue like Farnaz? I believe it is your father who is Jewish; am I right? You discussed this once before. I believe it is your father, and this means that you are not considered a Jew yourself by the orthodoxy.

There is a definite reluctance on the part of our media to discuss this conflict openly. This is why so many Americans are ignorant of this issue, its history, why we thought that we had the right to evict the Palestinians from their land in 1947 and give it to the Jews. You and other intellectual leaders and informers of the public opinion should spend much more time on it.

Farnaz, I think that you overstate the “overt racial assertions about ‘the Jews’”. Or am I one of the guilty, and just too ignorant or insensitive to realize it. Perhaps you could list the “overt racial assertions” that you are talking about…”

Posted by: rick22407 | January 15, 2009 9:18 PM

Stadtbear:

Sorry. What do you think of Julian Bream?

Julian Bream?

Ahhhhh....no opinion I guess.

GAby,

"You surely have the option of e-mailing Stadtbear, and that is fine with me. Make sure you two keep it between amongst youselves and don't bring it to this blog."

Stadtbear and I haven't emailed one another. This is very, very cryptic.

Stadtbear:

Julian Bream?

Farnaz,

Tic-Toc…it’s 9:00 pm…we are patiently waiting for you to produce my anti-Semitic post to Susan, the “half-Jew”.

Posted by: rick22407 | April 18, 2009 9:00 PM
________________
Rick,

So sorry, but you aren't on my radar. The thread on which you posted antisemitic material was noted by many bloggers, including the Moderate.

Truly, you aren't the least problem for me. Sorry, if that disappoints.

Farnaz

You don't care much for Saint Saens?

Ummm...some of the chamber music is interesting. I've never been fond of that damned "Organ" symphony. And Carnival Of The Animals has been done so much its a musical cliche.

Gaby,

I'm not asking you to disclose any correspondence you may have had with Stadtbear. That is between you and him.

What I don't understand are your threats to me. What do you want me to heed? Do you want to turn this into an airing of dirty laundry? Including yours?

Whatever for? And what has it got to do with anything? Are you angry with me for posting to Stadtbear?

What is going on?

PS. I don't want to get in the middle of things between the two of you. I wish you well, Gaby, and always have, as I think you should surely know by now, whether or not we disagree.

Farnaz,

Tic-Toc…it’s 9:00 pm…we are patiently waiting for you to produce my anti-Semitic post to Susan, the “half-Jew”.

You don't care much for Saint Saens?

No need to be disappointed, Farnaz!

I am a very considerate and giving person, but when driven in a corner I come out fighting!

You surely have the option of e-mailing Stadtbear, and that is fine with me. Make sure you two keep it between amongst youselves and don't bring it to this blog.

Otherwise, I will let people know what that evil, little troll has written to me in the "privacy" of my e-mail domain.

Some already know, and others will know!

So, please heed my advice!

Mephisto Waltzes...Much awe inspired in me by them.

Whoops! Forgot Julian Bream. Right-brain takeover, free association, etc.

Yeah, Liszt's Transendental Etudes and the Mephisto Waltzes glisten. They are hard to beat. Later, after he had a conversion and became an Abbot, his compositions took on a more confessional nature, especially the organ works, and can be a bit nerve wracking.

I've read a little about her, not much. So very much suffering. Too much, much too much.

You know, I also liked the early B.B. King, Bobby Blues Bland.

Early Lucille--Amazing.

Stdtbear:

Also, Liszt, Saint Saens. Eclecticism born of lack of knowledge.

Farnaz:

But, truly, above all, I like to listen to Bessie Smith. There, it's out.

Fascinating. Have you read about her life? It is reflected in MUCH of her singing and style. Poor woman really was an alcoholic, and did a lot of her recording while under the influence.

Stadtbear,

With respect to music, I am profoundly ignorant, although I very much like Bach, Beethoven, some of Wagner, Schubert.

But, truly, above all, I like to listen to Bessie Smith. There, it's out.

Gaby,

Last on this. Someone who, for instance, may have posted as Nevermore isn't a problem for me.

Racism, antisemitism, gay-bashing, Pagan-basing, Muslim hatred, sexism, Pagan hating--these are problems.

Dirty laundry? There's a ton of it. No one on this blog is without it, Gaby, is s/he? But does every blogger hate people of color, Jews, gays, Pagans, Muslims, women, Pagans?
-------------------

What is the point?
-----------------

On another note, have you done the Meyers-Briggs Inventory?

Farnaz:

What kinds of music do you like? Which composers?

I listen mostly to music from the late Medieval through the Baroque era, and to new age. My composers are Bach, Couperin, Rameau, Handel, Tallis, Marcello, and those guys. And you?

Stadtbear:

Here are search results that might interest you:

http://www.learningstyles.net/

Stadtbear:

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't know. I'm moving more in that direction, though, I think.

I'm surprised by what you say about Wagner. True he was a sorry excuse for a human, but a brilliant composer, no?

What kinds of music do you like? Which composers?

Farnaz and Stadtbear,

Do you really want me to air the dirty laundry???

I will if you force me to!
__________________
Gaby,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can for myself. I don't like threats. In an earlier incarnation, Stadtbear posted as CCNL or vice versa, I couldn't figute it out and don't care.

CCNL has posted as Tom, about which I care not a whit, since whatever he posts, it's inevitably bigoted and not worth reading.
---------------------------
But when it comes to accusing me of being a colleague I'm not, of accusing her of being yours truly, he crosses whatever line there is on a blog such as this.

He has followed my posts like a mosquito, accused me of being a member of JDL, harrassed me ad nauseum.

Now, he has slandered and libeled. END.

She, Farnaz Masumian has the right to know. I'm giving CCNL a break, though he has ever been vicious to me.

More than that I cannot do.
---------------
I'm surprised and disappointed by your post. This doesn't sound like you, Gaby.

Still, I envy you your INTJ.

Ha. You may be more INTJ than you know.

Hi Gaby,

What are you talking about?

Gaby,

Careful, my friend.

INTJ--How very interesting! Goes along with music, math, computer science, no?

Intuitive, for sure, am I. I don't recall the rest. I'd have to re-do the inventory. But, you know, although they say these are life-long qualities, I don't think they are. I don't know if you're aware of the more recent work done on learning styles, which has extended the original sense of the term, and brings Meyers-Briggs under its rubric.

In my case, for example, though probably still primarily right-brained, I have been shifting leftward (necessary for survival). Also, largely through effort, I've become more introverted in the MBPT sense.

Still, I envy you your INTJ.

Farnaz and Stadtbear,

Do you really want me to air the dirty laundry???

I will if you force me to!

Farnaz:

CCNL, I'VE ADDED PAGANS TO THE LIST: YOUR THIRTY MINUTES IS PASSING. NB.

You evidently believe CCNL can tell time. I'm not sure I would have made that assumption.

Farnaz:

Stadtbear, so you are very much the Wagner afficianado, I see!!

NOT AT ALL. The Ring cycle is inevitable, and I only listen to NPR, which broadcasts the Met performances, so I hear them.

Before I switched to computer science (actually, it was a math discipline in those days...c/s came along later) I was a music major. As a student in music history, I was forced to listen to the Ring cycle...all 300 hours of it!...and I have never gotten over the loathsome experience. I think Wagner was a far more interesting man than he was composer.

I assume you are familiar with Myers-Briggs. If so, do you know your type? I am a textbook INTJ.

Stadtbear posting his e-mail address to Farmaz....now that is funny!!!!

I could put something on this blog that STadtbear wrote to me.....And, trust me it's not for consumption in polite company...What an utter evil little troll!!

CCNL, he/she/it really wanted to reel you in, but apparently was too stupid to understand that I am not you....

So do me a favor, CCNL, since you were the one who was invited the first time around, please e-mail the deadbeat.

If nothing else, he'll send you a picture of himself, his harpsicord, and his Westminster Champion Scottish Terrier, Leah!

Have at it!!!!

Farnaz,

You may consider this a direct challenge. I do not enjoy being called a racist, or a bigot, or an anti-Semite. Perhaps you will be so kind as to reproduce my offensive language. The clock is ticking…tic-toc…it is 8:00 pm… tic-toc…

Stadtbear:

“…are you predicting the destruction of Israel?”

No; just the end of the racist nature of the state. Israel will not be destroyed. But the ever shifting borders of the region will return to their pre-1947 partition state. Jews, Arabs, Christians and others will live in perfect harmony as God intended (if there is a God) in a single secular state.

Rick22407:

"our presence in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan is uncalled for. We should end our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, bring our military home, and stop interfering with the affairs of other nations."

Agreed, speaking entirely for myself. Farnaz has complex knowledge and complex views about the Middle East, and I am not certain I understand all of them. But I think in this she would agree.

TO EVERYONE:

SCROLL DOWN. IF YOU THINK CCNL OWES YOU AN APOLOGY AND YOU ARE NOT ON THE LIST, KINDLY LET ME KNOW. THE THIRTY-MINUTE CAVEAT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU.

Rick,

Your language, not your assertion, was offensive. You know that. I'm not fond of coyness. I have nothing in common with ccnl. Biochemistry spared me that.

Farnaz:

By all means do it, if it would be a significant gesture for you.

For me, I have so little energy for worrying about what other people think about ANYTHING, that I could not bestir myself over the matter. Even a prattling imbecile has a right to his opinion...so the fact that hates gays/me, or thinks that I am you, is of no consequence to me. I wish, though, that he could be a little more varied, a little more original in his comments. I tire of reading the same silliness in each post. Still, given his limited intellect, I suppose creativity would be beyond his means.

Farnaz,

Actually, we agree on many things. Like Susan (who really is half-Jewish, and is not offended by being referred to as half-Jewish…I don’t think are you Susan?)…you, Stadtbear, Susan and I agree (I think) that our presence in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan is uncalled for. We should end our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, bring our military home, and stop interfering with the affairs of other nations.

I think we should stop giving billions per annum in foreign aid to Egypt, Jordan and Israel to maintain the status quo peace treaties between these three countries. As soon as we stop propping up these corrupt regimes they will be overthrown by their own people on their way to expelling the Israeli Jews from Palestine.

Here we can all gang up on the hated CC…that neocon moron who thinks George Bush’s policies were correct. :>)

How are we doing now Susan…back on topic…?

Stadtbear:

"But wouldn't it just be better to ignore him/her? He is obviously, and seriously, deficient. What glory in suing over an imbecile?"

No glory, you're right, of course. However, if she were to sue, or if we two were to sue separately or jointly, I would imagine the suit would be directed first against WaPo, then CCNL.

No glory, but, perhaps an end to this sort of thing for awhile, more responsibility on the part of WaPo, etc.

The problem is I'm not exactly what you would call litigious. Have never sued, even when it was clearly in my interest to do so.

Still, Farnaz Masumian has the right to know about this. What she chooses to do with the information is, I would think, up to her...

Don't much care to do this, but I'll have to give the matter some thought...

"He, unlike the nazi CCNL, is highly educated, a good, good man. Pulled the pedophile plug on two "colleagues" and got hell for it."

I would imagine he did! Holy Mother Church is not happy to have her 'blemishes' exposed to public, and therefore lay, scrutiny.

Oh, as for your question about libel lawsuits against blogs...I think the laws regarding libel in any print media apply here as well.

But wouldn't it just be better to ignore him/her? He is obviously, and seriously, deficient. What glory in suing over an imbecile?

Stadtbear,

"Hahahah! No, he didn't have the balls to take me up on my offer to email me, so I've had no opportunity to supply him with any pictures of RCC priests abusing boys."

Perhaps, you might, then, post them on the web? I've emailed a priest, a remarkable man, a great friend, with some of CCNL's postings. I doubt he will blog here, but I'm anxious to read his reply.

He, unlike the nazi CCNL, is highly educated, a good, good man. Pulled the pedophile plug on two "colleagues" and got hell for it.

Farnaz:

Hahahah! No, he didn't have the balls to take me up on my offer to email me, so I've had no opportunity to supply him with any pictures of RCC priests abusing boys.

Stadtbear:

Correction: Meant to write, "Btw., Did I mention that aside from being a nazi Wotan Worshiper, he IS also a member of the KKK, Whites for Christ, etc.?"

He is, of course, also a Muslim hater. Must check my records to post the other organizations of which he is a member in good creeping.

Rick22407:

I've never been much good at interpreting allusions...so I ask: are you predicting the destruction of Israel?

Stadtbear,

I'm thinking about emailing Farnaz Masumian. Do you know anything about how libel figures in blogging?

A friend of mine, in the postition Dr. Masumian has been put by ccnl, managed to win a lawsuit against the blog owners.

Btw., Did I mention that aside from being a nazi Wotan Worshiper, he was also a member of the KKK, Whites for Christ, etc.?

Also, have you sent him the pictures your priest friend gave you?

Rick,

I didn't begin the posting on the Holocaust. The US problem with the Middle East (including Israel, in which it is illegal to hold anti-US demonstrations) will only end when AmeriChristians like yourself stop interfering with the national soverignty of Middle East and Asian nations.

You cannot undo overnight the damage you've done in Pakistan. A good start would be to stop Saudi Bank (in Manhattan) from funneling funds to terrorists.

Stop supporting Mubarak. Stop forcing Israel to sell weapons to ruthless dictators such as Mubarak, which are used to kill Israelis and their own people.

STOP YOUR DRONE KILLINGS IN FATA. NOW. THIS MINUTE.

STAY OUT OF SWAT.

GET THE HELL OUT OF PAKISTAN. NOW. THIS INSTANT. YOU ARE JEOPARDIZING THE LIVES OF ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY MILLION PEOPLE.

READ A BOOK.

CCNL:
"An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

And yet, you fail to refute or defeat. You must be even more stupid than I have estimated, since it is so "easy" to refute and defeat, and yet you are unable to do so.

Are we to assume that you have visited all the libraries in the state of Pennsylvania?

I would recommend a cocktail of Geodon, Trazadone and Prozac.

straw man-

n.
A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.

An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.

A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

Farnaz Masumian aka at least seven aliases to include her straw man (definition #2) "stadtbear" continues her obfuscating ranting to distract from her dishonesty. Read the previous websites provided by an "Islamic Shadow Group"/Google and you will see what we mean.

Her only book (*** Life After Death: A Study of the Afterlife in World Religions) apparently did not receive much use or interest as it is only found in the holdings of two libraries in the entire state of Pennsylvania.

Stadtbear and Farnaz,

Thanks for the quick reply…I thought that I would get your attention.

To Farnaz…I think that my posts have been among the few on this thread that have been on topic: “are we at war with Islam”… and “are we a Christian nation”. They are far more on topic than rehashing WW II, Germany and the Holocaust.

To Stadtbear… I think the error will be corrected by the 1 billion Muslim people of the Middle East and the world over the next few decades, as the oil wells run dry, as we shake our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, and as we bring our armies and fleets home; we will no longer have an interest at guaranteeing Israel’s security at any cost.

Oh, and Rick?

As horrible as things now are in SWAT, make sure Americans don't genocide it. Muslim people, like Jews, don't like genocide.

Rick,

Would you like Pakistanis to be more fond of Americans? Scroll down and read the article I posted. Then write you senators, congressman, et al. to end the drone killings in FATA.

That would be a good start, but there is much, much more for you to do. I'll get back to you.

Rick,

Btw., I have nothing in common with the Wotan worshiping, gay hating, sexist CCNL. I have little in common with Susan Jacoby, except, perhaps, that with respect to thinking, which we both do with some degree of frequency.

Would that be the Susan Jacoby whom you referred to as being "half Jew"?
----------------
Again, I wonder if you could post on topic. Whence this obsession with Jews and Israel? Perhaps, you can get help with it? Medically, I mean? There are excellent OCD medications.

If you choose that path, could you let the Wotan worshiping CCNL know?

Rick,

The post below and the continuation are for you.

I would disagree that the US is at war with Islam and that Israel is the root cause. Osama's stated reasons for 9/11 was the the US continued presence in Saudi Arabia, despite this country's promise, after training him and his "troops," that we would leave.

The US has continually "interfered" with the governance of Muslim nations, as for example in its support of Zia of Pakistan, who brought the Wahabis, the Madrassahs, into that nation. The Saudis, in an (as yet unsuccessful) effort to export terrorism from its own land, made Zia the offer of building and funding the terrorist-growing Madrassahs, and he accepted.

THE US WAS AND IS COMPLETELY AWARE OF MADRASSAH FUNDING.

I haven't the time to go nation by nation with you, but I will post on Egypt. Egypt has one of the most corrupt despicable leaders in the region, Mubarak, who is currently grooming his son to follow him. The US has steadfastly supported Mubarak, he who robs bread from the mouths of starving Egyptians during the current food shortage.

In the meantime, the US, ever with its foot on the neck of Israel, has insisted that Israelis sell weapons to Egypt, which gives them to terrorists, who kill Israeli Jews, Christians, Muslims, B'hai, et al, as well as their own Palestinian people. It gets much, much worse, but I haven't the time to post on.

To distract the people from his own despicable self, the animal, Mubarak, like others of his ilk cultivate Jew hatred and Israel hatred, although the two are hardly synonymous.

The "House of Saud," brought to us courtesy of the imperialist Brits, when its "royalty" are interviewed on their textbook material on both Jews and Israel, giggle (literally).

Continued

Israelis have died and continue to die because of our "support." During the first Gulf War, we finagled with the Israeli government so that it informed the people that the nation could not defend itself against Iraqi assaults (ROFLMAO). So US planes came to the "rescue." Almost one hundred were killed, while in this nation, it was reported that none were. Ditto in Israel, until a few years ago, when the victims' families made their voices heard.

Common sense, alone, should tell you that returning to pre-1967 borders will not solve the problem. First, it was Syria, Jordan, Egypt that prevented the Palestinians from forming a state, pre-1967 (I am not addressing the fact that Jordan was meant to be the Palestinian state), not Israel. Terror against Israelis went on up through and subsequent to the 1967 War.

What Middle Easterners really do want is an end to US interference with national sovereignty. Because the US uses Israel to gather intelligence, it is seen as a threat.

As for the Palestinians, one must treat the Muslims and Christians as separate cases, but, again, I'm short on time. They are universally hated throughout the Middle East, mostly, IMHO, because they are highly literate, intelligent, successful. They are treated barbarically in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.; even in Jordan, where they are the majority they are not treated well.

A two-state solution would be ideal for Isrealis and Palistinians, alike, but for it to occur, the obvious must happen. Then there is the not so obvious, which is never discussed, the Temple Mount.

Jews who predate Muslims by thousands of years, pray from wherever they are facing Jerusalem. They are unable to go into the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock. The latter was literally built over it. In 1967, Moshe Dyan stood at the Temple Mount, and Jews all over the world rejoiced. The Israeli government, however, said the time was not yet right....

During the last "peace" initiative, Israel was again told that Jews could worship at their Temple. Ariel Sharon took Arafat up on his word, and the Palestinians began the last intifada.

Not so amusingly, Jews have died protecting the church located in the region where Christ was said to have been born.

If the US doesn't want enemies among Middle East nations, it must stop its endless compromising of their sovereignty. The same among the oil hungry Brits, French, etc. That won't happen, however.
________________________
Rick, I know this topic interests you, but, I wonder if you would mind posting on that which is relevant to this blog. Just, occasionally.

Rick22407 wrote:

"It was a tragic error to create the State of Israel in the first place and there will be no peace in the world until this error is corrected, and it will soon be corrected."

And in what way do you forsee that it will be corrected?

The one thing on which I think Susan, Farnaz, CCNL, and most other contributors to this thread are in violent agreement, is that Israel has a right to exist in her pre-1967 borders; and that her settlement activity and security wall that expand her borders are necessary and justifiable as a means to insure her security against the Palestinian threat.

If we are at war with Islam, and it often feels like we are, this is the root cause. It was a tragic error to create the State of Israel in the first place and there will be no peace in the world until this error is corrected, and it will soon be corrected.

What do you think Farnaz? Am I a raging anti-Semite or just an idiot, or both? ;>)

Farnaz:

Email me at will. I have a question to ask.

stadtbear@gmail.com

Farnaz;

"On the web, however, storms continue, no?"

Storms? Sound and fury perhaps.

I was in NYC last weekend to pick up a puppy. Breeding plans for a new bloodline. We could have had lunch.

Been listening to Wagner at the Met. Just concluded. One more in the Ring cycle, and its complete for the year.

Hi Stadtbear,

You write: "Ah, but its sunny and pleasant here in Virginia."

Ditto, here in New York, after days of rain, clouds, and chilly temperatures. Bad weather visits upon New Yorkers either anger or depression. This most recent bout caused sadness throughout the boroughs. Heads hanging low, facial expressions of doom, halting steps--It was a dreadful sight to see.

Today, with Helios happy, New Yorkers are filled with good cheer as they romp about on their errands, head for the parks, even wait on the subway!

On the web, however, storms continue, no?

Farnaz

Farnaz:

Disgust is certainly the word. I definitely prefer the company of scotties and raccoons.

PERSIFLAGE and ONOFRIO,

Wherever you may be, cone home, please!!! It is chilly here in the Klondike, damp here at the Equator, etc.

Farnaz

Ah, but its sunny and pleasant here in Virginia.

Stadtbear,

Thanks for your post.

Parts of "The Jews and Their Lies" (Martin Luther) were used extensively as propaganda throughout the nazi era. Some of it is on the web, along with selected writings of St. John Crysostum, from whom the nazis also drew liberally, as also was the case with parts of the "New Testament," the latter, despite the fact that they claimed it was a "Jewish" religion.

The Hitler era developed a hodgpodge of pagan and Christian/Catholic practices, as you know. As for Hitler, himself, though, at times, at odds with the RCC, he proclaimed himself to have always been a Catholic.

Were I you, I would not read "The Jews and Their Lies." There is enough moral sickness all around us. Why add to one's disgust with one's fellow humans?

Farnaz

PERSIFLAGE and ONOFRIO,

Wherever you may be, cone home, please!!! It is chilly here in the Klondike, damp here at the Equator, etc.

Farnaz

CCNL, Wotan Worshiper,

So sorry to disturb your devotions to Wotan, but I must second Stadtbear in appealing to you to end your assaults on the English language. Along these lines, I ask that you google "straw man" so that you can use the term correctly.

Spark1:

Next time you post antisemitic material, reread your own posts on this thread. Realize the type of bigots, CCNL and Mary Cunningham. with whom you are making community.

Take a romp through the internet and notice the number of self-proclaimed Christian and Catholic bloggers, Catholics like CCNL and Mary Cunningham, who assert the most virulently anti-Islamic material.

Antisemitism, in its current form, the form in which you have been known to post, was brought to the Middle East and Asia by Christian/Catholic imperialists (e.g., those who cut off the thumbs of Muslims and Hindus, who cut off their hands and tied them around their necks). This Jew hatred, which you often post, has subsequently been thoroughly Islamicized.

Most Christians are still unaware of the treatment of Christians in the Middle East and Asia, of the Chudra, for instance, on whom I have yet to post. They do not know what is said in Mosqs about Christians, both here and in Muslim nations, what appears in daily newspapers, etc.

They do not know that Islam holds that whoever believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God is damned forever. They do not know that what Islam considers Christian/Catholic idolatry is abhorrent, hateful, evil to Muslims.

They do not even know the exact nature of the antisemtic material that appears daily in the Muslim world.

NOTE WELL: Judaism, unlike both all forms of Islam and Christianity, holds that the deity, Hashem, has a covenant with all peoples, and it is not for Jews to comment upon it.

NOTE VERY, VERY WELL: Aligning yourself with those Christians/Catholics who are Jew haters, concealing the truth about Islam's views of Christianity (because you are so outnumbered by Christians) is a poor, poor strategy that will backfire on you, big time, in the end. Indeed, on you personally, it will backfire (again) very soon. Note, other bloggers have posted Quoranic references to both Christians and Jews, as well as other material, on this current blog.

Because I am very, very familiar with both Asia and the Middle East, have numerous Muslim friends, acquaintances, and associates throughout the world, I am in a far better position to let Christians know the truth.

Realize, as well, that the number of Christian/Catholic Jew haters is far, far smaller than the number of decent, moral, loving Christians. In the end, you will lose Spark1.
You will lose politically. You will lose morally.

You will lose your very soul.

As for me, I have tirelessly advocated for an end to this abominable war against the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan. I have posted an article on the US drone killings in FATA on this very thread. I am affiliated with two UN entities that seek to bring about genuine dialogue (not superficial feel good nonsense) among peoples of all faiths and no faith.

I AM A JEW, SPARK1. I am an atheist, but culturally, I am a Jew.

JAMIL: The above post may be of some interest to you.

I wrote a present on this current question of on faith on the main page where readers are invited to comment for all secular humanists. Enjoy!

Just in case I didn't make myself abundantly clear, I repeat:

Mary Cunningham, whose ignorance of history and religion, whose racism and inability to write in her native language run parallel only to CCNL's, claimed Maimonides was a Platonist.

I could go on (and on and on and on) but leave the two, for now, to pray to their true god, Wotan.

CNL:

"Read some of Farnaz's et al's commentaries and the Masumian references supplied previously and you will see the necessary "knowledge" of religion, religious literature, secularity and near-death experiences ooze from Farnaz et al's rants to include her strawman responses and vice-versa."

In the name of Buddha, PLEASE stick with simple sentences. You have neither the intelligence, education nor vocabulary to be attempting compound/complex sentences.

I am not Farnaz Marsumian, but have read "Life After Death: A Study of the Afterlife in World Religions," which I highly recommend. If I recall correctly, it covered notions of the afterlife in seven religions.

Mary Cunningham, who countless times has promised various bloggers not to post here, but nonetheless, like the proverbial bad penny, resurfaces, writes:

"And if she is a historian (she alledges she taught Holocaust and women's studies), then I'm an osteopath! Her ignorance on many aspects of history is exceded only by her invective: indeed she uses foul language--almost always by one of her 'literary' creations--to deal with any who happen to disagree with her or who point out her deficiencies of knowledge."

I am not a historian and have never claimed to be. Never has Mary Cunningham corrected a single historical event on which I've posted. NEVER. What she does post is the most virulent antisemitic bigotry I have yet to encounter from a self-proclaimed Catholic on any newspaper blog.
I do not believe she is an osteopath. I take her at her word when she says she is involved in the financial world. Look at the world economy.

Ms. Cunningham's ignorance has been oft remarked upon as has her jealousy of yours truly, which fits well with her antisemitism. I have always resisted correcting her, even when she called Maimonides a Platonist (as nonGod is my witness), and worse.

As for Farnaz Marsumian's book, it does not cover afterlife the afterlife in RACISM, the true religions of CCNL and his sidekick, Mary Cunningham.

Hi Thomas Baum,

The fact that you believe you met god does not make you irrational, many others believe they communicate directly with him/her/it as well and that he answers them.

Rational peoople may wish for something or even seek a political, lawful process to change things they don't like.

Irrational people act in ways that are opposite to commonly held ethics world-wide to effect the change. Those are the people who need to be institutionalized, whether in jail or an insane asylum.

If you are irrational, so is the remainder of the religious world, so to speak.

By the way, I am ready!

Gaby

"God gave us free will and God honors that free will because if God did not honor our free will then it would not be truly free."

How did he do that anyway? How can an all knowing God make himself not know?

TPM Baum:

Having been introduced to god personally must surely qualify you as a seer/prophet. What do you think about Obama's statement that the US will never be at war with Islam? Will that happen? Personally I think it is much too soon to be making predictions like that. Can you tell us whether that will always be true or that we will go to war with a religion?

By the way, I'm curious about the nature of god's chosen way of revealing himself to you. Did he appear to you in a vision? Did he bodily assume you into his heavenly presence? What did he say to you?
What does he look like? What was he wearing? Does he have a penis...although I cannot imagine his having a need for one since he is capably of creating in other ways.... tell us all Thomas. That must have been an exciting experience.

Great essay Susan...too often our history is mischaracterised by the media or misrepresented by ideologues.
It's alarming to watch social conservatives who claim to oppose big government & love freedom eagerly advocating the use of government power to restrict religious freedom & individual liberty based on religious arguments in areas of abortion & gay marriage (both of which many religious & non-religious institutions in the U.S. accept).
We should discus how our Constitution's Framers sought to protect religious freedom & individual liberty by not allowing strictly religious principles, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise to be the basis for our laws & rights. For example, if we're a Christian Nation why would our founders prohibit religious tests for elected office if they supposedly wanted certain religious ideals to be favored? if we're a Christian Nation why would our founders include in the Constitution the principle of equal rights if they favored the rights of its Christian citizens? The answer is that from a legal & Constitutional point of view, we are not a Christian Nation.

And Farnaz (Masumian) continues to talk to her strawman "stadtbear" intermixed with the hallucinations of one Thomas, " the Moses of the NT" Baum.

The "war" against dishonestly is not only against Islam but is against all those bearing false witness.

BMORRIS244

You wrote, "Consider us exclusive ;)"

I am a Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith and I do not consider myself exclusive and Jesus, God-Incarnate, was not exclusive at all.

As I have said before if one is a Catholic then one should also be catholic.

The word catholic means universal, it does not mean exclusive or arrogant or anything of the sort, and universal very clearly means ALL.

I have also said before that sometimes I find it amazing that the Catholic Faith has survived within the Catholic religion but it shouldn't, because it is not about religion, rules and regulations, but is about a relationship.

Did you know that when Jesus said, "Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It", there is the whole mission of the Church?

Jesus also said, "I Am the Vine and you are the branches", He didn't say branch.

God's Plan is catholic as in universal, not the tie, which in my opinion would be a loss, that some, sad to say, seem to be settling for, that is, as long as they get to the 'good place'.

I am thankful that God is not as stingy with His Grace as we try to be with His Grace.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

GABY1

You wrote, "I don't think any rational being wants to wipe Isreal of the face of this earth,"

Whether one is rational or not, there are some that want to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth and some are honest enough to say it, whereas there are others that want to do the same thing but hide their intentions in, shall we say, lies.

For that matter who defines "rational", I have been referred to in many ways for the simple reason that I have met God, Who is a Trinity and is a Being of Love, and have also met satan and have spoken about it.

You also wrote, "Even if we succeeded in wiping out poverty and starvation all over the planet, and made sure that everyone has equal rights (tongue-in-cheek comment here, because we all know that even in America that doesn't hold true), there will always be someone who wants the ultimate power. Sad, but true!"

Yes, it is.

One day all will know that God has a Plan which actually is Good News even tho there seem to be quite a few, that as long as they go to the "good place", so to speak, is 'good enough', well it is "GOOD NEWS", not 'good enough' news because the so-called 'good enough' would be absolutely horrible news.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Farnaz wrote:

"I may have been unclear on the "primitive religion" business. It was Luther, author of "The Jews and Their Lies," who is the ultimate source of the statement made by the minister."

I have a copy of "The Jews and their Lies", which I've never read. If you were quoting a Lutheran minister who was quoting Luther's book, I'd be inclined to say that his use of the word 'primitive' does indeed mean 'original, not drawn from another source'.

I have made one trip to the Holocaust museum in DC...and my impression was that it fairly encapsuled everything I had seen on my death-camps trip -- except scale. And thanks for the links. I am fascinated by the entire thing, from the treaty at Versailles to the Nuremburg trials. I have perhaps 130 books about Hitler and the nazis. "Mein Kampf" is a pre-history of events to come. It is a turgid book, but he completely lays out his intentions if and when he gained power. The world cannot say it was not adequately warned.

mary_cunningham wrote:

"She is thoroughly creepy and hijacks the Jacoby discussion at will."

Grow up. Nobody hijacks anything here, regardless of Ms Jacoby's emotionally motivated content. Nobody has prevented you from posting anything you want. So shut up and post, or go away.

Not only is the United States not a "Christian Nation" but it would be very un-Christian to try to make it one.

God did not become One of us for us to try to set up a theocracy in "His Name" even tho there seems to have been some that have attempted this over the years.

God gave us free will and God honors that free will because if God did not honor our free will then it would not be truly free.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Looks like we should add Spark1 to Farnaz's alias list.

DAILY ALIAS ALERT:

Again Farnaz:"Stadtbear" self-commentary continues unabated as what appears to be a disgruntled part-time "teacher" in Texas, one "Farnaz Masumian", has been identified by a "Phantom Islamic Group"/Google as being this erratic defender of Judaism even though she says she is a Jewish atheist.

Other aliases used by Farnaz in the past:

Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra aka stadtbear aka ????

Farnaz was caught "red handed" using most of these aliases some threads ago.

An interesting posting in one reference by said Masumian noted the following warning to her students:

"Students who violate University rules on scholastic dishonesty are subject to disciplinary
penalties, including the possibility of failure in the course and/or dismissal from the
University. Since such dishonesty harms the individual, all students, and the integrity of the
University, policies on scholastic dishonesty will be strictly enforced."

http://www.utexas.edu/ssw/eclassroom/syllabi/masumian/fl2008sw311.pdf

Apparently Ms. Masumain fails to live up to the standards required of her students.

Read some of Farnaz's et al's commentaries and the Masumian references supplied previously and you will see the necessary "knowledge" of religion, religious literature, secularity and near-death experiences ooze from Farnaz et al's rants to include her strawman responses and vice-versa.

A sincere apology and a promise to stop using aliases and strawmen in the future would be a great first step in giving any credence to said Ms. Masumian's comments in the future.

DO NOT SMEAR THE FACTS

The stature of the Prophet (PBUH) is great indeed; as the author of the book "Islam and Modern Age" a Hindu professor wrote the following about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):
"The personality of Muhammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet, there is Muhammad the General; Mohammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Spokesperson; Mohammad the reformer; Muhammad the Refuge for orphans; Muhammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of woman; Muhammad the husband; Muhammad the father; Muhammad the educator; Muhammad the Law-giver; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint and etc. In all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like a hero! Orphan hood is an extreme form of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of material power and it ended with it! From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its ups and downs, its terror and splendor, he has withstood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions."
A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD: A HERO-PROPHET WAS SENT DOWN TO THEM WITH A WORD THEY COULD BELIEVE: SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD-NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT; WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS, ARABIA IS AT GRENADA (Spain) ON THIS HAND, AT DELHI (India) ON THAT; -GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES THROUGH LONG AGES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. BELIEF IS GREAT, LIFE-GIVING. THE HISTORY OF A NATION BECOMES FRUITFUL, SOUL ELEVATING, GREAT, SO SOON AS IT BELIEVES. THESE ARABS, THE MAN MAHOMET, AND THAT ONE CENTURY, -IS IT NOT AS IF A SPARK HAD FALLEN, ONE SPARK, ON A WORLD OF WHAT SEEMED BLACK UNNOTICEABLE SAND; BUT LO, THE SAND PROVES EXPLOSIVE POWDER, BLAZES HEAVEN HIGH FROM DELHI TO GRENADA! I SAID, THE GREAT MAN WAS ALWAYS AS LIGHTNING OUT OF HEAVEN; THE REST OF MEN WAITED FOR HIM LIKE FUEL, AND THEN THEY TOO WOULD FLAME."
Thus concluded the speech of Thomas Carlyle, one of the greatest thinkers of the past century. It was Friday, the 8th of May 1840. His theme — "The Hero as Prophet" His audience: were Anglicans — English Christians.

In reply to slurs most often repeated by
CNNL

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - Untainted and Pure
"After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet. Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the earth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew in wealth in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia; his food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soft bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting into tears before his Creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last breath had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp. Circumstance changed, but the Prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable."
Professor Ramakrishna Rao, "Islam and Modern Age"

I don’t know CC…if Farnaz is indeed the Ms. Masumian as you claim she is a very impressive young woman. In fact that is true even if she is not, even though she is as likely to skewer me on occasion as well as you. We are fortunate to have her contributions.

CCNL: Farnaz2 is not Farnaz Masumian.

She teaches writing--hence the creation of all those alter-egos--and is almost certainly a poet.

And if she is a historian (she alledges she taught Holocaust and women's studies), then I'm an osteopath! Her ignorance on many aspects of history is exceded only by her invective: indeed she uses foul language--almost always by one of her 'literary' creations--to deal with any who happen to disagree with her or who point out her deficiencies of knowledge.

She is thoroughly creepy and hijacks the Jacoby discussion at will.

But in honour of one of her better pseudonyms, titled wittily 'pseudo', I will repeat a neat couplet:

Did God create the universe
Or did it happen in reverse?

More links to Farnaz aka "Farnaz Masumian", the delusional Jewish atheist who talks to herself these days via her strawman, "stadtbear". (a result of information provided by the "Islamic Shadows Group"/Google:

http://near-death.com/newsletters/2002/11.html

http://www.iands.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=97

Well, well, well, Susan, it appears the thread has been hijacked.

Arminius, I am out of here!

Stadtbear,

I may have been unclear on the "primitive religion" business. It was Luther, author of "The Jews and Their Lies," who is the ultimate source of the statement made by the minister.

And Farnaz (Masumian?) of many delusions continues to talk to herself via her strawman, "Stadtbear"!!

Stadtbear,

As I think I mentioned earlier the USHMM has an extensive web site on the persecution of gays and lesbians during the nazi era. It includes a bibliography, testimony, etc. Here is the direct link.
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/hsx/

If you're interested in the WWII era, in general, I'd recommend Iris Chang, "The Rape of Shanghai." if you haven't already read it.

Most people are clueless as to how the Japanese (regular army) conducted themselves during WWII. (In the Philippines, the people remember.)

Hello Stadtbear,

Hudal, may he rot in RCC hell was not involved in that atrocity. I found it ironic that he should be the animal he was whilst nazis were murdering Italians.

Hudal's role, among others, was Defender of the (Nazi) Faith. He was one of the primary coordinators of a Ratline. Also, an impressive racist scholar, he wrote several books defending nazism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal)

"Primitive" in the sense you describe it, is probably, what Luther meant. What is the point? That transubstantialist Luther with his mangod delivered by a virgin had an "evolved" faith to offer? :)

Also, he was one of Hitler's favorite sources for notable racist quotables. See, for instance, "The Jews and Their Lies."

Now, I shall go sit under a cyprus tree. :)

Farnaz

Jamil51 wrote:

"My third point is that there is now a strong lobby who want these three main religions to fight among themselves."

What is this lobby? Of what persons or groups is it composed? Where does it exist? What/whom does it lobby? How is it funded?

Arif2

You may have a different belief but that does not mean that taking the advantage of hiding behind internet you are free to insult my sentiments, if you do so then that shows your character and hateful personality. You are not creating a good image about yourself.
And still if you remain blind to any decent reasoning then you must be serving someone else.

Farnaz2

My point was quite simple, that human beings are turning towards religion and extremism is not just a case with Islam.
When Bush and Blair acted they got a team of religious activists such as the Italian prime mininster and the then spainish prime minister even the Australian. Even now the German chancellor, she is a religious person. And look at the rise of BJP in india.
The second point is that voilence is evident and it includes Palestine where we see what happened in Gaza.

My third point is that there is now a strong lobby who want these three main religions to fight among themselves.

The rules of engagement are fast changing and thus we are going to see a lot of turmoil on the face of earth, in this case the truth is that Christianity is not pitched against Islam as some people suggest.

Certain group of religious fanatics, but in places of influnce can play a hovoc with the people.

Freedom is a God gifted instinct in human beings and no one subdue them by imposing third world order.

We have a common front among monotheistic religions and we certainly have points where we differ with eachother. We must support eachother were required.

Farnaz,

"he recalled being in a Lutheran service and hearing the minister opine, after der Fader, "Judaism is a primitive religion."

Now, IMHO, "primitive" is an interesting word."

Where religions and philosophies are concerned, the word 'primitive' is usually used to mean "original, not derived from another religion or philosophy."

BTW, I can't resist: Cypress is not an island. It is a tree. The island is Cyprus. I point this out because it is obvious that you spend time and thought in your opinions and posts.

More websites cited by the "Islamic Shadow Group" aka Google that Farnaz is Farnaz Masumian:

http://www.utexas.edu/ssw/eclassroom/masumian.html

http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file=masumian_mysticism_bahai

And we see Farnaz continues to talk to herself via her strawman, "Stadtbear"!! One very delusional woman is she!!!

Farnaz wrote:
"Another interesting fact concerning Bishop Alois Hudal (nazi), stationed in Rome. In Italy, after the Italians gave up, German soldiers (regular army) rounded up five thousand residents of a single town, mostly women, children, the elderly, jammed them into a few buildings, and set fire to them."

ummmm....you do not state how Hudal is tied into this atrocity. I'd be interested in knowing.

As an aside, one of the many strange superstitions in the RCC is the obsessive veneration of and prayers to Mary and Joseph. If prayers offered to his parents were of any benefit to his followers, and to his church, I would think that christ would have mentioned it to his intimates. Catholicism is a very strange, gutter religion.

Stadtbear,

Gaby is not a bigot, not at all. Gaby tries very hard to understand and get along with people.

You, on the other hand, are free with foul language, and are indeed a bigot. And the fact that you are gay has nothing to do with anything.

Gaby wrote:

"I didn't know you are gay, had I known I would have been kinder and gentler to you in previous communications."

Oh. You would have treated me differently if you knew I was gay.

You are the worst kind of bigot. Yours is exactly the sort of prejudicial behavior that civil rights, and gay rights groups have worked so hard to overcome.

I do not want to know people like you. Do not communicate with me again.

Arif2
Your moral rapture is evident by the filthy mind that you poured out while commenting on my post.
Do you think after showing such a proverse and stinking personality still you qualify to talk about the people of swat and their religion.

Jimmy those are some pretty harsh words from an islamic man like you. You speak of my filthy mind? It’s your "last" prophet's life I was referring to in my post, there was nothing about me there. Your "last" prophet in addition to woman grabbing was an avid looter. He raided caravans just like your Somali boys loot ships on the high seas wonder where they learnt that art from?

This intelligent human wites this drivil...
"I agree with you that the Muslims, Jews and Christians have much in common..."
NO they don't. Muslims believe in barbaric Sharia and hide their women, in a majority they want women of other faiths to hide themselves too. Muslims believe in ethnic cleansing. Christians and Jews change with time, while Muslims keep going back 1400 years. Other than borrowing the Old Testament from the Jews the Christians have nothing in common with the Jews. Both Christians and Jews believe in the 10 commandments, the muslim "last" prophet broke all of them.

Arif

Jamil,

I agree with you that the Muslims, Jews and Christians have much in common, but I would not go so far as to call them torch-bearers of traditional moral values. I think that they are just good people, like most of us, who try to live and let live and get by as well as we can.

I think the Golden Rule is as close to religion as we need to get to be in God’s favor, if there is a God.

By “disillusioned groups” who are the “common enemies of us all”, I hope you don’t include people who may have a lifestyle that is different and may be castigated in most religious philosophies; e.g. homosexuals.

rick22407

The Jews Christians and the Muslims are followers of a monotheistic religion and they are the tourch-bearers of traditional moral and values.
These moral and values are under attack by various disillusioned groups, they are the common enemies of all of us.
In the name of freedom such groups advocate such sinful practices which will ruin the bases upon with our societies and their decencies depend.
Thanks for your comments

Arif2

Your moral rapture is evident by the filthy mind that you poured out while commenting on my post.
Do you think after showing such a proverse and stinking personality still you qualify to talk about the people of swat and their religion.

Stadtbear,

IMHO, this papal apology is meaningless. And, quite frankly, I could not care less about Irving's friend Fr. Williamson.

This is fodder for the most superficial kind of discourse. I will say this. He is not alone, nor is his group alone, among deranged racist priests. There are several such groups in the US.

Having such persons among them does little, I would think, for the Catholic soul. What kind of institution produced them? The Austrian clergy? The German clergy? Etc. All the nazi priests and ministers, some of whom are still among us, young ones.

What concerns me is the Vatican's continuing refusal to release its complete archives from the nazi era, its racist "New" Testament, Catechism, Passion plays, etc. What concerns me is the Vatican's oil holdings, which Israel continually threatens to make public, but, thus far, has not. I'm a good researcher, but keep getting stuck, blocked, barred from this info.

What concerns me is the grotesque pageants throughout South and Central America, the Carribbean, all Catholic nations, even in remote areas of France, not-so-remote areas of Spain, on Catholic "holy" days, in which "believers" carry grotesque placards of "THE JEW."

A formerly Lutheran student in one of my comp. classes wrote a researched essay on religion and racism. At one point, drawing on his own experience, he recalled being in a Lutheran service and hearing the minister opine, after der Fader, "Judaism is a primitive religion."

Now, IMHO, "primitive" is an interesting word.

On a positive note, many Protestants continue to demand that the RCC release its WWII archives. Catholics, Protestants, and most recently, twelve Orthodox Christian priests have called for the purging of antisemitic elements from the "New" Testament.

Stadtbear,

"I have a problem with nonJews"....

Another interesting fact concerning Bishop Alois Hudal (nazi), stationed in Rome. In Italy, after the Italians gave up, German soldiers (regular army) rounded up five thousand residents of a single town, mostly women, children, the elderly, jammed them into a few buildings, and set fire to them.

Stadtbear,

I did post such a bibliography several times. I would imagine you could find it in the archives. The "Gypsies" (Roma and Sinti) refer to the attempt to genocide them as Porajmos (spellings vary). The overwhelming majority of them were and are Roman Catholic. Notwithstanding their religious affiliation, the RCC did, at the time and has done since, absolutely nothing for them. Simon Wiestenthal advocated tirelessly for them, and his web site is a could source. Twenty-five thousand of them were murdered in one night at Auschwitz. (The Catholic nazi, Josef Mengele, whose escape was facilitated by a Vatican nazi bishop had a "special" relation with one little Roma boy, whom he later threw into an oven, alive.)

You will also find information of the Roma, Sinti, and on gays at http://www.ushmm.org/.

There was, among the guards, a considerable amount of gay, bisexual, activity, notwithstanding the nazi persecutions. Holocaust Memorial museums contain artifacts and information about gays and Roma.

Also, google "Gypsy Holocaust." Google is also good for info. on gays. You'll find numerous course syllabi with bibliographies (including mine).

I have a problem with non-Jews: the holocost consumed some 12 million people. Half of those were Jewish. They are the only ones who actively keep memories alive of those lost. Where are representatives of the non-Jews who were murdered? The gays, the christers, the mentally ill, the gypsies and all the other non-Jews who were consumed. You never hear of any group attempting to keep their tragedies in the public mind.

Perhaps you could suggest some reading about about the non-Jewish victims. I have one book, "The Pink Triangle", about gays who went to concentration camps. There must be others.

As per the previous post about papal apologies, and what they are worth, I think the church in Rome should erect a monument, in Vatican Square, to those (especially Jews) it helped Hitler to kill, as well as the unnumbered masses of people it has murdered through official church offices, such as that of the holy inquisition. Then the apologies would have a little meaning.

I made a tour of the death camps in Austria (a much more civilized country than Germany, btw) and Poland and Germany of course. At Auschwitz, they tell the story of a local priest who knocked at the gate of the prison and volunteered to exchange himself for the release of a Jewish prisoner. His offer was accepted, and he was ultimately tortured to death.

And down the road there is the ENORMOUS Auschwitz II, or Birkenau, which has to be seen to be believed. I stole a brick from the undressing-room wall of Krematorium III, and smuggled it back to Austria, and ultimately home to the US. The prisoners had to make the bricks which were then used, again by the prisoners, to build the Krematories there. My brick has a fingerprint in it, left obviously by the man or woman who made the brick in the first place. Its kind of touching.

Hi Stadtbear,

I teach British and American lit., composition, linguistics, literature of the Holocaust, Modernist Studies, Women's Studies.

Jamil

Thanks for the excellent post. You represent your position well, unlike the neocon Bush and Blair whom you correctly deride, or the mental midgets who so rudely attack you (as they attack each other) on this site. You are correct that 99.999% of the more than 1 billion Muslims honorably follow the wise teachings of their faith while ignoring the distortions added by the few; just as have their forefathers before them for 1400+ years.

In a similar manner most of the 2 billion Christians honorably follow the wise teachings of their faith while ignoring the similar distortions added by the few. We can’t let these distortions of a few lunatics lead us astray and into a war (or general ill will) between Christians and Muslims and others of good faith.

Farnaz,

What do you teach?

Arif,

Regarding the article's reference to "drones" (scroll down), as you probably know, the result of the US drone killings in FATA has been the promise of suicide bombings and other forms of violence against the entire nation of Pakistan.

Farnaz

Arif2, Perhaps of interest:

Little Einsteins

Thursday, April 09, 2009
By Anjum Niaz

Pakistan needs big ideas like Einstein's to fight terror; not a kindergarten of little Einsteins who whizz around the presidency, the PM House and parliament pretending to stall the march of the Taliban.

Last week, the 170 million Pakistanis were handed down their death sentence. We were told that twice a week we would be in the line of fire by the Tehrik-e-Taliban. This was our punishment, said Hakimullah Mehsud, for the drone attacks conducted by the Americans. Pat came the presidential response: "I will not let the Taliban win," vowed Zardari who prefers first-person pronoun. In these murderous times the singular 'I, me and myself' hardly comfort. His predecessor was equally lackadaisical. The cigar-toting Musharraf secured his own space so that no suicide bomber could get to him. He lived and enjoyed life. For the rest of his citizens – well they could go take a hike.

Even Benazir Bhutto was left unprotected and allowed to die.

Prime Minister Gilani in his latest designer suit with matching tie and hanky assembled his Spartan warriors. Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar (the man who said that drones land here but don't take off from Pakistan); Information Minister Kaira; Interior Adviser Rehman Malik, the four chief ministers, chief secretaries, police chiefs and FIA and IB heads: together they 'brainstormed' on how to lick terrorism. A light bulb came on! The geniuses in the parliamentary committee on national security were tasked with terror fight. The Mian, Maulana, Sardar, Professor and Khattak are commissioned to bring forth an encyclopaedia on terrorism covering all its aspects – from A to Z. These men are our last defence against the Taliban. And the most important decision of all is that they will meet 'every month'. Wow! Gilani and his little Einsteins then retired for a hearty meal, I guess.

The president meanwhile waited anxiously at the presidency on the outcome of this momentous moot. The prime minister gallantly charged off to tell his boss the great plan.

Continued

Wait… more is on its way. We are told that Rehman Malik 'informed' PM Gilani about forming a 'special anti-terrorism force' because the police are 'ineffective'. This bit of good news should make citizens sleep easy at night and walk the roads like lions in the day. Twenty thousand strong will be around to protect us when a suicide bomber strikes. That evening the TV titans – the same pinheads you hear nightly – debated vacuously on the efficacy of the force. A retired general in charge of interior during the caretaker government is in hot demand by the channels. He holds forth as if he's addressing a corner meeting at Mochi Gate, Lahore. But he talks sense often.

Did you notice the body language of Holbrooke and Mullen at the press conference? They were the archetypical ugly American wanting to ramrod their plan. Pakistan said no. Drones once again took centre stage. Why can't the US look for alternative routes to eliminate the 'foreigners' in FATA without killing innocent women and children? Can we move beyond the 'drone' dragnet that's stifling solutions to save us from the Taliban?

Otherwise, let's drone on!

What we need is a war room at the PM House, open 24/7 to the anti-terrorist experts manning it. I know most of you will scream out if I dare suggest that we follow the formula Israel has adopted to stop suicide bombings. Yes, they have the latest weaponry and the most sophisticated intelligence systems, but they have trained their people to fight terrorism like professionals. We can train our special force that Rehman Malik promises to raise with 21st century warfare. America will be happy to host the training and provide us the wherewithal. It doesn't hurt to ask. Will it compromise our sovereignty? No way!

Meanwhile, the seating plan at the presidency needs a makeover. It doesn't look proper for the president of a starving nation to be on the throne like Emperor Haile Selassie holding audience with guests crammed on leather loveseats on either side. Flanking the president are two portraits of his wife along with giant flags of Pakistan and the presidential emblem. All know he's the president; he doesn't have to remind himself.

The writer is a freelance journalist with over twenty years of experience in national and international reporting.

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/04/09/Little_Einsteins/

Jamil;
Whatever you were told about the past glory of Islam is false. You need to read again for yourself and then boast about Islam if you can. This religion is finished; no one will take it seriously in another few years. Muslims have ruled the past 1400 years like the Taliban, fortunately with the spread of knowledge and the internet we can criticize your leaders, your filthy "last" prophet, the life he led, the child he wed, the multiple women he married and those that he raped.
What we see in Swat and most of the NWFP is how Islam ruled, with sticks and swords in the past and now with guns. The Taliban are hated in Swat and wherever they go. It is by sheer might and brute force they rule. They rule with the same laws of your "last" prophet, they say the same prayers you do; they read the same koran you do.

Oh, and Jamil,

Tell us about the Christians and their roles in government in Middle Eastern nations. Tell us about their opportunities. Tell us about their position in Pakistani society.

When you're done, Jamil, tell us about the Palestinian Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. How do the Saudi and Egyptian Muslims treat the Palestinian Muslims?

How many serve in "government"? What kinds of opportunities do they have? Etc.

Impartial, inquiring minds want to know.

Jamil,

You write: "The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions"

From this statement I gather you know nothing about Judaism and less about Israel and the Palestinians. First, unlike Islam and for that matter, Christianity, Judaism forbids comparison/contrast between or among religions, holding that the deity (Hashem) has a covenant with ALL PEOPLES.

Hence, you will never hear in a synagogue as you will in a Mosq or Church mention of Christians, Hindus and Jews or of Muslims and Jews, respectively. Neither will you hear comparison/contrasts drawn between or among adherents of different religions.

Further, Israel is not a religion; it is a nation of enormous diversity, both with respect to national ancestry and with respect to religion. Israeli Muslims serve in the Israeli Parliament as do Israeli Christians. Israelis (Jewish or other) do not slander the Palestinian Muslims, teach grotesque nonsense about them, e.g., they drink blood (!), as the Palestinian Muslims, and others among the Muslims teach about Jews.

I find all this "blood" nonesense quite remarkable, given that Jews may not ingest blood AT ALL, not in meat not in anything. Following Judaism, Islam follows the same principle. When Muslims cannot find a Halal store, they purchase from stores that sell kosher meat.

Arabic, Jamil, is the second language of Israel. Israeli students study it in school.

Israel, Jamil, is the only nation in the Middle East, where the Muslims have absolute freedom of speech, can choose their own representatives in Parliament, in fair and free elections.

NOW, Jamil, tell us in which Middle Eastern nations, which Asian nations Jews serve in Parliament.

Arminius

I said that it was pretty much established that the Founding Fathers were Deists. You took that to mean that they were not "religious." I guess the miscommunication here comes from each of us having a slight variation on what words mean.

I thought that Deism was the prevailing "religion" among the educated class of people of the 18th century; it was the Christian reaction to the Anglo-French Enlightenment, and to the dawn of the practice of organized science.

The Peace of Wesphalia in 1648 concluded the last great European war of religion. That was 141 years before our modern Constitution began. Memories of these wars were fresh in people's minds, and the American Founding Fathers sought to avoid the mistakes of the "Old World" by excluding the power of government from the inevitable bitter dissensions that arise among relgious people.

Anyone who reads about George Washington or Ben Franklin knows that they were not Christian Fundamentalists in the modern sense.

US-Israeli differences over Palestinians emerge

MARK LAVIE writes in today’s WP _____ JERUSALEM -- Stark differences between U.S. and Israeli policy toward peace talks with the Palestinians emerged clearly Thursday in the first meetings between President Barack Obama's Mideast envoy and top leaders of the new Israeli government. _____ The envoy, George Mitchell, emphasized that Washington is aiming for creation of a Palestinian state. But Israelis avoided mention of Palestinian statehood, and the new foreign minister said past Israeli concessions have led to violence, not peace. _____ Mitchell met Thursday evening with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. An official in Netanyahu's office said the Israeli leader expressed misgivings about creating a Palestinian state in the West Bank because of concern that the militant Hamas group could take it over, as it overran Gaza in 2007… ____ Netanyahu also demanded that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state, a step they have refused to take, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the talks were not public. _____ Mitchell used the term "Jewish state of Israel" twice in public statements Thursday… _____ In response, Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said it means Israel will not conduct peace talks. "It's very obvious that this government rejects a two-state solution and the agreements (already) signed," he told The Associated Press by telephone. _____ [It is clear that unless and until the Palestinians openly declare their acceptance of a racist Jewish state of Israel on Palestinian land, there will be no peace… so there will be no peace.]

GABY1: "Mohammed was not the last prophet, there is at least one other and his name is Joseph Smith."

1. There were no horses, pigs, elephants or sheep in the New World before Columbus
2. DNA evidence finds no indication that any part of the Native American population was related to the ancient Israelites or any other Semitic people
3. Archaeology has found no trace of Gid, Nephi or Bountiful

No one can claim prophethood if they say demonstrably false things about the PAST, let alone the FUTURE.

Islam is here on this planet for the last 1400 years. It is a practicing religion, not just based on Friday prayers or else rituals. Is this something new which came to light after 9/11 only?.
As a matter of fact mankind is once again turning towards religion. The neo-con and Bush Blair lead the world to wage wars based on their religious beliefs.
Then there is a revival of extreme Hinduism in India but as usual until now no one bother about it. The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions. In such a climate there is nothing unusual to be discovered about Islam.
What secular views the American state cherished do not matter as much as the alarming point that when an American President comes in guise with hidden religious extreme sentiments then he can wage dangerous wars in the world and even one which can lead to a third world war.

Islam is a religion practiced by more than one billion people, no one can finish them by might or otherwise.
It is even more difficult to change the local culture and values which are being practiced by the people in different parts of the world. If we have any fear this is our own created, we have the right to secure our selves and our homeland but we do not have the right to wage wars in far flung place based upon false apprehensions.

You cannot win any war anywhere without the support of the people of the land, what ever their belief might be, in present day it is Islam so all the grudge for not winning is against Islam.

DAILY ALIAS ALERT: (a bit early today-playing golf later)

Again Farnaz is back this time as her straw man "stadtbear" and note that she is again talking to herself i.e. To: stadtbear... From: Farnaz2 and vice versa.

Other aliases used by Farnaz in the past:

Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra

Farnaz was caught "red handed" using most of these aliases some threads ago.

And in keeping with the thread topic, the "Islamic shadow" has reported that another alias might be:

Farnaz Masumian
Lecturer

Web: www.utexas.edu/ssw/faculty/masumian/

An interesting posting by said shadow group noted the following warning to her students:

"Students who violate University rules on scholastic dishonesty are subject to disciplinary
penalties, including the possibility of failure in the course and/or dismissal from the
University. Since such dishonesty harms the individual, all students, and the integrity of the
University, policies on scholastic dishonesty will be strictly enforced."

Hmmm, is then our resident Jewish atheist/author of one book/bearer of false witness, ranting then really all about not being asked to be an On Faith panelist???

But then again should we really trust information published by an "Islamic shadow" group????

Gaby,

Gandhi said, and said truly, "If you Christians would live like your Christ instead of just talking about Him, then everyone would want to be Christian".

Arminius,

Who again was it that said I like your Christ if only you Christians were somewhat like him (OK, so I paraphrased).

Have a good night!

Friend Gaby, you said,
"Christians have nothing to do with the freedoms and tolerance America and other western countries enjoy."

Er...well... not all of us! Yes, I rather vehemently denounce that, but no trumpets and drum rolls included. Let no one label all Christians with the hatred preached by the likes of the Dobsons and Falwels, for there are very many of us who strive for the love and tolerance that Jesus preached.

Arif,

I beg to differ!

Mohammed was not the last prophet, there is at least one other and his name is Joseph Smith.

Born and bred in America!

Christians have nothing to do with the freedoms and tolerance America and other western countries enjoy.

It's the agnostics who gave us that.

My friend, Arminius :), would of course vehemtly renounce my statement, since he is a Christian. LOL!!!

Susan the power that you have today is strength derived from evolving Christians, once this nation was an overwhelming Christian nation, today its not so, you may want to wonder why.
From an outsider I can tell you that as a Christian nation you have everything going for you than you would under any other religion or non-religion.
The Christian religion has in its own way given power to agnostics, atheists and all others who claim to be a religion. This nation of once Christians gave way to people who could dare to expand the human mind. Can anyone in India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc., say; "There is no Allah/God/..." without loosing life. There is no country baring those that have majority Christians where the concept of multiculturalism exits. Western nations (predominant Christian nations) are the only nations that dare to explore the human. People of every nation/color/nationality are welcomed and expected to contribute; a unique concept that is strictly Western/Christian/non-Christian whose parents were once Christian.
A politician/King/Despot/Dictator in a non-Christian nation promises or enforces more religion, woman's rights erode constantly in Muslim countries. Women are caged, rape is legal, sex on demand, toddler girls are married off this is Islam and NOT "radicalized" Islam. Muslims have one unchanged book, a "last" prophet they understand their religion better than you. How does the Taliban, Eboo, the Saudi King, the suicide bomber read the same book(Koran) and kill or condone killing of women accused of infidelity? There is no radicle Islam, its simply Islam.

Arif

Isn't that called back-channeling in Army terms, Arminius???? LOL!!!!!

Gaby!

First, thank you, friend.

Next, check off-line for a possible start on this conundrum.

"We are not a Christian nation, and our government is not a Christian government. That's a simple fact, and one of the glories of our history--as the founders understood."

I agree entirely with you and the Constitution. Therefore, I await the end of "faith-based" funding, the end of nonprofit status for religious institutions. I wish to nonGod that Obama would end this Christian blather, keep the matter of his choice of church as private as possible. End of discussion. Really. Please, whatever, give us a rest.

The best atheists, agnostics, any and all secularists can do is fight this primitive nonsense and seek an atheist candidate for the next presidential election. Maybe, we can form a new party: Secularists for Democracy.

Susan,

A while back "Daniel in the Lion's Den" said, you can not make friends on these blogs because everyone is anonymous and therefore contact is futile.

While I respect Daniel's opinion, I can guarantee you that it is possible to make friends on these blogs.

So thank you for your essays and thank you for letting me find a friend!

Sincerely,

Gaby

So other than your gallantry, what is your take on this ???

Arminius!!!

Good to see you, my friend!

If you saved me a seat, of course, I shall be delighted to take your offer!

Gaby!

"Well, Farnaz, I guess I'll go sit in the back of the bus now!"

Don't you DARE do that! I'm in the front, and have saved you a seat.

Stadtbear:

"My partner is half Jewish, half RC. He denies both religions! He has no clue how to answer me. All I know is he is circumcised, which is important to me."

I didn't know you are gay, had I known I would have been kinder and gentler to you in previous communications.

Please forgive my ignorance!

Gaby,
You write, "Well, Farnaz, I guess I'll go sit in the back of the bus now!"

You will find a lot of us there. (There SHOULD BE more.) Those of us who have survived to get on the bus will not turn you away.

This is the post to which I was referring, but you might want to read the one subsequent to it.
Posted by: Farnaz2 | April 16, 2009 7:37 PM

Well, Farnaz, I guess I'll go sit in the back of the bus now!

Hi Farnaz,

Please do not believe that I am anti-Jewish when reading my posts. I am just trying to state events as I have been taught in my culture.

I do, however, believe that the creation of Israel as an independent nation in that part of the world was a mistake that the world will yet come to rue.

The volatility in that region reminds me of sitting on a tinderblock with five stick of dynamite in one's hand while smoking a cigarette and getting too close to the fuse.

Gaby

Stadbear,

For Jews, in general, if a person converts to another religion, he is a member of that religion. Period.

Again, however, the matter of persecution is important. If, nonGod forbid, your partner was being persecuted since one of his parents were Jewish and he wished to claim the right of return, in all likelihood, he would be helped, if help were possible to go to Israel.

Culture is a different story. Susan Jacoby is clearly an atheist and just as clearly a cultural Catholic, which she doesn't deny. One is raised how one is raised.

However, there are vast cultural differences between European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews such as yours truly.

Gaby,

I suggest you read my post, and I suggest you look further than Wikepedia. Also, read the Israeli Declaration of Independence, which is on the web.

Jews were living in Israel from the beginning throughout the centuries. Until WWI, Turkey controlled "Palestine," the name given to it by the Romans after the Bar Kochba War. (Palestine means Philistine, and has nothing to do with modern Palestinians, who are Muslim and Christian.) The British seized Palestine after WWI. (They seized quite a bit, btw.)

When England's oil interests were clearly in jeopardy, they tried to prevent the formation of the state by all means necessary, including hanging Jews in the streets, firing on a shipload of survivors, killing thirteen, imprisoning thousands on the Island of Cypress. See my previous post.

The Israelis telephone call to the UN proclaiming independence is also available on the Web.

Herzl and others were motivated to establish statehood by the Dreyfus "Affair."

BTW., JUST A QUESTION: WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH SUSAN'S POST? AND HOW DO THE GENOCIDED AMERICAN INDIANS VIEW THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

Farnaz,

I think I was not clear. Rephrasing the last part of my question: If someone, a christer for example, converts to Judiasm, does he remain a Jew even if he later converts to another religion or becomes an athiest? Or does being a Jew culturally mean that your mother must be Jewish, observant or otherwise, thus meaning that converts to Judiasm are religious converts only, not "cultural converts"?

My partner is half Jewish, half RC. He denies both religions! He has no clue how to answer me. All I know is he is circumcised, which is important to me!

Rick,

Although I agree with you on the Balfour Declaration which speeded up Jewish emigration into Palestine, the State of Israel was not created until after WWII.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence was made on 14 May 1948, the day the British Mandate expired in Palestine. So says the official announcement that the new Jewish state named the State of Israel had been formally established in parts of what was known as the British Mandate for Palestine and on land where, in antiquity, the Kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Judea had once been.

In Israel the event is celebrated annually with the national holiday (Independence Day). Palestinians commemorate the event as Catastrophe Day on 15 May every year.

(The two paragraphs above ere plagiarized from Wikipedia, but is is a well established historic fact that I needed no further research on.)

Yes, the British screwed up (sorry for the poor choice of words), but they did so with international concurrence.

Also, although there was a guilt trip involved certainly by Germany and her Allies, I doubt that it was much of a contributor to the establishment of the State of Israel. To be really blunt, I believe that no one else wanted the Jews and thus Palestine was a logical location. From a political perspective it was ideal, particularly for America, the U.K., and Germany. Germany allayed her guilt, the Brits and Americans got the perfect ally in an unstable region, and all was well.....

Stadtbear,

This is a difficult question. Identities are social constructions. In the minds of the Christians (including Catholics), Jews are Jews or, if they convert, they are "converts" from Judaism, and, in my experience, have always been considered, shall we say, "different."

To the French Catholics, and to some Protestants, Jews are not French, regardless of the period to which they can trace their ancestry. During the Communist era, when there was no religion in the USSR, when people who may have had Jewish ancestry knew nothing of Judaism, since the state religion was Communism, USSR persons who couldn't show baptismal evidence of being Christian, or whose last names indicated Jewish ancestry, had the word "Jew" stamped on their passports.

During the Holocaust, baptismal certificates of parents and grandparents established whether someone was "Jewish" or "German," Polish, etc. The Polish Catholics refer to the Polish Jews as Jews and to themselves as Poles. Ditto in the Ukraine, as in France, as in England, etc.

Typically, in Judaism, if the mother is Jewish, the child is considered Jewish. In Islam, if the father is Muslim, the child is considered Muslim. However, the same holds true de facto of Christians and Catholics. If someone were to ask you what your religion was, and you said you were an atheist, they would ask what your parents' religion was.

For Jews, the question becomes important because of ongoing persecutions. So, for instance, in Ethiopia, there was a population which claimed to be Jewish and was oppressed for that reason. They were kept illiterate, deprived of the meager opportunities that existed there, etc. If they were Jews, they had the right to return to Israel, the right to return from the Diaspora. If they were Jews and were being persecuted, Israel had the obligation to bring them home.

When it was established through testimony, that they were in fact Jews, airlifts began, and continued into the nineties. When airlifts became impossible, THEY WALKED from Ethiopia, often being held and tortured in Sudan, and ultimately made it to Israel. There are now one hundred thousand of them there.

More recently there has been immigration from racist France and England. Racism means having racist attitudes. "Race," too, is a social construction.

Farnaz,

Does that mean that, born a Jew, always a Jew, even if ultimately abandoning the Jewish faith? What about converts to Judiasm? Are they always Jews, even if they become atheists?

Stadtbear,

Balour was a fundamentalist Christian who wished to usher in the millennium, and for which the gathering of "the" Jews in Jerusalem was necessary.

The Zionists, regardless of their political beliefs, were neither Christian fundamentalists nor religious Jews. When it became clear the the Anglo-Christians that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates were not pleased, they went further than simply preventing desperate Jews fleeing the Holocaust from escaping to Israel.

They hung them in the streets. They fired on a ship of survivors killing thirteen. They imprisoned thousands on the island of Cypress until the UN, itself a moral swamp, declared the Brits behavior immoral.

Yet, they continued. The Jews, armed with next to nothing, drove them out, and declared themselves a nation.

DITLD et al,

From the Roman Empire to the American Revolution, the religion of the state was the religion of the ruler. There were battles between sovereigns and the RCC, which not infrequently sought to claim authority over the king. The Treaty of Westphalia, 1648, officially implemented regional religion, specifically, that of the ruler. Religious minorities were given some rights, could observe, for instance at certain times during certain days.

The Articles of Confederation was silent on the matter of religion. The Constitution was not. Given that the people were "the sovereign" and given the diversity of religious belief, it was reasoned that if the US followed Britain in establishing a religion, competition among the (primarily Christian, Catholic) denominations would be inevitable, and dissenters would be oppressed.

Therefore, (theoretically), we have separation of "church" and state.

You are quite right Stadtbear,

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was instrumental in speeding Jewish immigration to Palestine.

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

The British soon learned that this was a horrible mistake and tried to reverse course with the White Paper of 1939. This attempted about face was defeated however by Menachem Begin and others and their terrorist gangs such as Irgun.

It was certainly not envisioned that this “national home” would be a Jewish state created by displacing the native Palestinians; “…it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine…” The Jewish state came much later following the Holocaust and WW II as noted by Gaby, and was very much the result of a guilt trip and was influenced by religious beliefs.

Danielinthelionsden wrote:

"...what do any of us really know? What is knowing? How do we determine what we consider knowledge that is true?"

Precisely! We can never KNOW anything. We can only think we know.

Daniel ITLD,

You said, "As for the Founding Fathers, it is pretty much established that they were Deists. I am not open to debating that."

You may not be open to debating that - which I find strange - but your statement is not really correct. Many of the founding fathers were religious. But most of the really important ones were not: Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, and Adams, for starters.

Susan,

I asked you before and numerous bloggers have requested of Mr. Waters that something be done about CCNL. He's a bigoted troll, who cuts, pastes, lies, and who, btw., has posted under the alias of "Tom," about which I care not a whit, since either way his postings are idiotic.

I am aware that I am far from alone in my desires that CCNL be instructed in netiguette. However, my impression is that most simply would like him blocked. It seems to me that if nothing can be done about his postings that is the wisest course.

There may actually be someone who welcomes his posts, but that person has yet to identify himself/herself. As for me, I will remain an outspoken Jew, for the rest of my life, surely. And CCNL will remain a jerk, no doubt. He'll have to live with his Catholic guilt, Q Gospell in the sky, etc., closet gayness, etc.

Farnaz

PS. Is it going to be possible to post on topic anymore, or is CCNL's OCD and paranoia going to sabotage this thread, possibly this blog?

Being Jewish is cultural. The Judaic faith is only one aspect of that culture. Another part of that culture is that, historically, being Jewish is determined matrilinearly, regardless of a person's environment.

Rick22407 wrote:

"You say: “So now, we are back to religion. Who promised the Jews that land in the beginning?” That is the point…no one, and no one should try to build a nation based on religious beliefs, or sympathy, or guilt."

If I remember my World History correctly, it was the British who were instrumental in settling the Jews on that land. I don't know whether sympathy was part of the equation, but I'd bet that religion and guilt were not.

Ms. Jacoby, don't bother. If humans can believe in black helicopters, the Illuminati, and a flat earth, then they can believe anything, and you aren't going to be able to change their worldview. My recommendation is to treat such posters as I treated the gentleman across from me this afternoon who claimed inside knowledge that within the month, President Obama would declare Martial Law and overthrow the US government. Just nod politely, and move on (actually, that's much easier to do in a forum setting).

ClintPerry: "Secular" is a commonly misunderstood word, due to its incorrect use by many religious pundits. Just browse over to Mirriam-Webster (m-w.com) or any other site to see the proper definition. It's pretty clear that the US government, and its Constitution, are secular.

The US has historically been "a nation of Christians" - and all of your examples back this up. But none of them show a codification of the unique, basic tenants of the Christian faith, thus you cannot apply the adjective "Christian" to the US government.

Farnaz:

I asked this question once before, but I don't think you saw it.

Since Jews are not a race, is being Jewish entirely a religious experience? If one abandons the Jewish faith for another, or becomes an athiest, is one still a Jew?

Gaby,

You argue that since millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust by Hitler, the world owes them a state of their own.
_________________________________
I say that is illogical, bordering on nonsense to be blunt about it. The Germans should have been punished for their war crimes no doubt, and they were punished severely by WW II. But that does not mean that the world owes the Jews a theocratic, racist state. No native population should be displaced by anyone (least of all the USA) to make room for an apartheid racist state.
_________________________________
You say: “So now, we are back to religion. Who promised the Jews that land in the beginning?” That is the point…no one, and no one should try to build a nation based on religious beliefs, or sympathy, or guilt.

"susan jacoby" wrote:

Thank you, my friends. It's been my experience that bums have a way of throwing themselves out, in one form or another. Again, it's an example of delusions created by people who write only on the Internet. Hello?

Ho hum. Again, you cannot prove that you are or are not susan jacoby. Your identity is no more proven than anyone elses is here, notwithstanding the red-herring of your 9 books....which have nothing to do with proving who you are here. I have no doubt that you are susan jacoby. But you cannot prove it. Or is logic entirely beyond you?

ClintPerry

"Ceremonial Deism" refers to the religious references and ceremonies of the American government now. It refers to prayer breakfasts, praying in Congress, "so help me God" in oaths, and "in God we trust" on the money. This is an acknowledgment to the traditions of religion, but has nothibg to do with any kind of personal religious belief or faith.

As for the Founding Fathers, it is pretty much established that they were Deists. I am not open to debating that. How does saying that they believed in "Providence" prove anything? "Providence" is a Deistic modification of the concept of God, which fits very well with Deist belief.

If you want to prove to me that the Founding Fathers had strong Christian beliefs, go ahead; I doubt that I will be persuaded. They lived at the tail-end of the bloody, bloody, bloody wars of religion, and they really knew, more than modern people seem to, the brutality of religious dissension.

Regarding Susan Jacoby's identity, I think I have a sense of her identity, all that I need to get along in life. Of course, what do any of us really know? What is knowing? How do we determine what we consider knowledge that is true? And what is personal identity? How do we assign personal identity in others, and what does it mean in ourselves? What, for instance, is personality, and will? And how is will formed? Do we have free will, or does it unfolce according to some mystery?

I wonder about all these things, and for us to be question each others' identity, seems childish and baseless, some level, but yet on another level, it is relevant to the ongoing controversy about the existence of God, or the reality of evolution versus Intelligent Design.

In all of these things, we have a group of people who are sure that they know what is true, and we have another group of people who are sure that the opposite is true.

But, as I said, according to my criteria of judgement and by the way that I establish knowledge that I consider to be valid, and according to the relevance and importance of this matter in my life, I belief that there really is a person writing essays here and commenting to us, who is Susan Jacoby, both personally and publically.

Thank you, my friends. It's been my experience that bums have a way of throwing themselves out, in one form or another. Again, it's an example of delusions created by people who write only on the Internet. Hello? No serious writer would want to "farm out" work to someone else. I'm proud of what I write. Why would I want anyone else to write under my name? I even enjoy looking back on the books I wrote in my early twenties, which certainly don't live up to my standards today. They show me that I've improved as a writer. It would truly be depressing if I weren't a better writer today than I was at age 26, when my first book was published.

Clintperry wrote:

"Usually the term secular is used to denote a society that is stripped of public religious discourse and religion is merely reduced to privatized personal belief."

Well....that is the way the term secular is used by fundamentalist christers. Actually, the word secular originally applied to ecclesiastics and priests who were not members of a religious order. In the past couple of hundred years (and possibly as known to the framers of the Constitution) secular merely means of, or relating to, the worldly or temporal, not being specifically religious.

Gaby1 noted: "Hey, Susan, just throw the bum out!"

And the bum in this case is Farnaz alias "stadtbear" her straw man!!!!

Danielinthelionsden,

Thanks for the comments. You bring up some important points.

A couple things:

First- I'm not trying to say that the Constitution is a religious document, per se. I'm trying to point out that the founders were not writing it to make a "secular" nation. Usually the term secular is used to denote a society that is stripped of public religious discourse and religion is merely reduced to privatized personal belief. I do not believe they wanted the Constitution to represent the founding of a purely secular state.

Second, Jefferson was massively influenced by John Locke's "2nd Treatise of Government" and Locke grounds his ideas of natural rights and Law in the Creator. In fact Locke quotes the Bible quite extensively to ground his arguments, and Jefferson and the founders seem to be quite okay with this. Also, I dispute the point that the founders were merely Deist. A true Deist does not believe God is personal, but that God has merely created and lets nature runs it course. Yet, we know this: The founders prayed often before their meetings. Why should a Deist pray to a God who does not intervene or guide? Here is a letter by Franklin that details his beliefs:

Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another life respecting its Conduct in this. (Letter to Ezra Stile, March 9, 1790).

Thanks for reading,
-Clint

Susan,

Your bonafides work for me! It's your column but your mom, and mine, would probably say 'just ignore them, if you give them attention they won't go away."

Hey, Susan, just throw the bum out!

"susan jacoby",

As I think of it, there is nothing to prevent you from posting under the name CCNL.

You have a little maturing to do, where the internet is concerned.

"susan jacoby" wrote:

"You comment about the possibility that someone else could be writing under my name as an "On Faith" panelist "

It betrays nothing. There is nothing to prevent the supposed Susan Jacoby from farming her work out to others. This sort of thing is hardly unknown.

Your "bona fides" are no more established or secure here than anyone elses. So stop putting on airs. You make yourself ridiculous.

Stadtbear:

You comment about the possibility that someone else could be writing under my name as an "On Faith" panelist for The Washington Post betrays a comical ignorance of the way that real writers, and real publications with real editors, work. Newspapers and magazines have their own faults, but allowing people to steal the bylines of established writers is not one of them. Unless, of course, you think there is no real Susan Jacoby (tell it to my Mom) and that someone else is the author of my nine books. Of course, I can easily understand why people who never own up to their own opinions, under their own names, might confuse the real world (in which editors and writers actually know one another) with the virtual world, in which anyone can say anything under any name and not be called to account for it.

edbyronadams wrote:

"On the contrary, they are related by numbers at a ballot box or on a battlefield."

We disagree.

Rick22407:

""However, I disagree with: “…a Jewish state needed to be created in the aftermath of WWII.”

Jews have no right to create a racist, apartheid state anywhere in the world…anymore than do the white or black Baptists.""

Rick, to compare the Holocaust with white or black Baptists is more than a little blase. To be targeted simply because of your ethnicity is bad enough, but the Holocaust was much more than that. Hitler sought to eliminate an entire population, plus some. All in all approximately 12 million people died the the camps, half of them Jews. To deny the survivors and their offspring a place to live in peace is inhuman. To problem is, it was the wrong place. And so, since it's inception Israel has not gained any peace, but rather has been fighting with it's neighbors from day one. That is the sad part.

There were many places, mostly uninhabited, that could have been made available to them, but again, no country stepped forward. Choices could have been plentiful, but in the aftermath of the atrocities that were committed by Germany, Poland and Russia the western world wanted to give the Jewish population what they longed for. And that was to go back to the "promised" land.

So now, we are back to religion. Who promised the Jews that land in the beginning?

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,433 combat 844 non- hostile) and 91,403 – 99,794 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

continued below:

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

6. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

7. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

8. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

9. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan.

10. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

11. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

12. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

13. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

14. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

15. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

I don't attend services, but all the rants posted on youtube, and those reported by various press agencies, are distinctly anti-West but seem to emphasize the non-Islam issue, not the Christian issue. We aren't the Great Satan because we are Christians, we are the Great Satan because we don't follow Sharia, we invade the Holy Lands, etc. - all problems that would be true if we were Hindu, secular, or probably even Sufi.

I don't understand your point, Iamweaver. Mine is that there are multiple causes of terrorism, that religion is often a factor, although it is risky to generalize. Certainly the terror against Jews ensuing from the debut of the "Passion" in this country had a "religious motive." The dragging to death of a black man, I don't know, but religious ideology has permeated nationalismes, racisms, etc.

To say that anti-Christianity and anti-Christianism has nothing to do with terror is naive, particularly, since the War against the peooples of Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at the daily newspapers in the Middle East, Asia, and parts of Africa. Attend a Friday service at a mosq.

The problem with your assertions, Farnaz, is that they don't mesh with the stated claims by these organizations. Unlike your comments (which look backwards, often more than 40 years), radical, de-westernized groups pretty clearly base their claims from predominantly current, mainstream issues.

They don't seem to care that in the 1960s, women and Jews were still struggling to deal with their own equal rights issues. They don't seem to care that, 70 years ago, Western nations turned a blind eye to Nazi designs against Jews, or that Americans imprisoned Japanese-Americans, or whatever historical issue you wish to bring up.

They don't seem to care that modern radical groups in Western nations still believe in curtailing rights for women, Jews, Blacks, aliens, what have you, either.

Clearly, the difference between "A Nation of Christians" and "A Christian Nation" seems to fly miles above several poster's heads. They need to step back into a classroom and study grammatical constructs again, methinks.

Try substituting the word "Islamic" for "Christian" and comparing countries that enforce Sharia with those that do not to see the difference. Codification of a religion's precepts = placing the adjective before the noun, "Nation".

As far as I can see, the prime commandment for Christians (stemming from the Christian "shema" in Mat 22:36-40, etc.) isn't mentioned in the Constitution or its various amendments, but feel free to point to the inclusion of "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and get back to me. Including the second commandment (that can be found in a large number of religions and secular philosophies) gets you a failing grade.

Addendum:

This is to say, that although it is risky to generalize about the causes of terrorism, one can say that in the two cases I mentioned, that issuing from Islamists, that issuing from Christianists, there have been multiple causes. Religion, in a sense yet to be defined, is a factor.

And let us not forget the terror visited upon Muslims and Hindus during the imperial era. Christianism played a part in that as well, though, perhaps, more subtly.

"We know that we are at war with radical Islamists who wish to murder Americans (and Europeans, and Asians) not because they belong to "Christian nations" but because they endorse civil rights and liberties that transcend religion and civil laws that apply to all."

This is a tricky assertion. In the minds of many extremists, imperialism, neocololinalism, our values, and Christianism are all associated. Particularly since the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, Friday services are ,osqs are punctuated with anti-Christian epithets.

In the case of Jews victimized throughout the ages by Christianists in Europe, the US, more recently the Middle East, the motivation was more requently "religious," first issuing from Catholicism, Russian Orthodox, and later Luterans, et al, beginning in Europe with the First Crusade continuing to the present, in this country as recently as Mel Gibson's "Passion." However, majority Christian nations wedded to religions, whether established or not, as in this country, combined with Christianity to scapegoat Jews, violate their human rights, murder them, etc., in order to further their own economic and political goals.

stadtbear:
"Secularism and liberation of women are both intellectual developments and are not tied to Darwinism in any way."

On the contrary, they are related by numbers at a ballot box or on a battlefield.

edbyronadams wrote:

"Unless actions are taken to bring mortality in line with natality among competitors, secularism and the liberation of women is doomed."

Secularism and liberation of women are both intellectual developments and are not tied to Darwinism in any way.

Principles are great. Differences in underlying principles is the entire basis for the idea of the "Clash of Civilizations". The most salient of these principles to me would be the idea of the freedom of each individual to choose as they wish to believe and act and its final expression in the West as the liberation of women versus the principles of Darwinism.

Liberated women choose to have fewer children. Women as oppressed by most of Islam have more children. The only rule of Darwinism is to leave more copies of you genes than your competitors. Since Darwinism is an unremitting principle established over hundreds of millions of years, it would seem to have the upper hand over the transient principles of culture. Unless actions are taken to bring mortality in line with natality among competitors, secularism and the liberation of women is doomed.

DAILY ALIAS ALERT:

Farnaz is back this time as her straw man "stadtbear".

Other aliases used by Farnaz in the past:

Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra

Farnaz was caught "red handed" using most of these aliases some threads ago.

test

Susan Jacoby wrote:

"The fact is, there is only person on this blog whose identity you can be sure of--who stands behind her beliefs under her own name--and I am that person."

Oh? Can you prove that? We've never met you. You could be Ben Bradlee for all we know. Or maybe an ambitious and verbose copyboy. It is not difficult for a newspaper person to write under a real reporter's byline, especially if that reporter cooperates or "farms out" his/her work.

To Gaby1

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that “…the creation of Israel in that part of the world was one of the biggest historical blunders ever…” and “…It's too bad that people who lived there for centuries had to forfeit their land.”

However, I disagree with: “…a Jewish state needed to be created in the aftermath of WWII.”

Jews have no right to create a racist, apartheid state anywhere in the world…anymore than do the white or black Baptists.

Clintperry

I don't think know what the word "secular" means.

It means not churched or not religious. The Constitution written in the 17th centure was most definitley not a religious document, but a secular document, dealing with secular things.

There was no intention in it other than to frame out a system of Federal law, to take the place of the British authority which no longer operated over the former coloinies.

The memory of the religious wars of Europe were as fresh to our Founding Fathers as they are faded to you. I believe that it was their intention to moderate the inevitible dissension of religious conflict by assuring the rights of all to believe as they wish, without the government taking sides and promoting anything like an official or national religion.

You mistake "cermonial Deism" for personal religion. "Ceremonial Deism"is merely a courteous and respectful nod to religious tradition, and nothing more.

We must be careful how we use the term “terrorism”. One man’s terrorist is another man’s patriot or freedom fighter…Menachem Begin comes to mind. Other examples are Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas is the duly elected government of the Palestinian people, and Hezbollah is also a legitimate political party in Lebanon. The fact that these groups also have armed wings, as do we and the Israelis, does not make them terrorists.

You are right Susan that these groups will never accept the right of Israel to exist on Palestinian land. But that does make them terrorists…that just makes the right and on the side of justice.

Just my opinion…

BMorris noted:

"The reason non-Catholics are not allowed to receive Communion is because Catholics believe the Eucharist is God."

Not anymore:

cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html

"Eucharist and Belief in the Real Presence

Nine in ten weekly Mass attendees (91 percent) say they believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the Eucharist, compared to two-thirds of those who attend Mass less than weekly but at least once a month (65 percent), and four in ten of those attending Mass a few times a year or less (40 percent). Among Catholics attending Mass at least once a month, the youngest generation of Catholics (born after 1981) has similar beliefs about the Eucharist as Pre-Vatican II Generation Catholics (born before 1943).

Considering that 70% of Catholics go to Sunday Mass only on Easter, the data show that the belief of the real presense in the Eucharist is slipping fast amongst Catholics.

see also:

http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/polls.txt

http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a044.html

And from the class notes at a major Catholic univerity's graduate theology class:

"Communion is not Christ's physical Body and Blood since Christ exists as a spirit therefore has no physical form.

Transubstantiation is still a Catholic doctrine, but it never meant a literal transforming of bread and wine into the physical body and blood of Jesus.

Substance" in medieval philosophy referred to the essence of a thing
and was not reducible to material appearance.

Transubstantiation is a way of
expressing belief that Jesus Christ is SOME HOW present in the consecrated bread and wine in a special way. Some theologians believe that "transignificantion" would be a better term today than transubstantiation."

One couple more things:

If understanding the author’s intention is the proper method of interpretation, then it is absurd to assume by reading the Constitution that America is a “secular” nation. America is a reigious nation, if not a Christian nation. And our government is a religious government. Ideals like Liberty, Justice, Perfection makes no sense without Theism. Again, American principles make no sense without God. It seems that you, in attempting to distinguish our nation as not a Christian nation, fall off the other side of the horse by reducing American government to “secular”. The government is not against religion, and promoting faith based institutions is a good thing for the government to do.

We do live in a pluralistic nation, where religions are given equal treatment by the government. Yet, even if America is not a Christian nation in the sense that we do not officially state this in a formal governing document this does not mean that America is “secular”. The American government is thoroughly pro-religion, and whether or not one agrees if Christianity is true should realize that they are indebted to Christians for setting up such a nation.

John Adams said, "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

This is a very interesting topic. I've written my thoughts primarily at

clintperry.wordpress.com (please go there to view them all).

You seem to ground your idea that our government is secular primarily on the fact that “God” is not in the Constitution. And you complain that schools should teach more about the “secular” side of the American History. It seems that in so far as American historical education is supposed to focus on the main influences of the past in America then religion (especially Christianity) ought to be most studied since it does indeed provide the foundational principles for our nation.

Furthermore, your quip that “God” is not in the Constitution ignores the fact that the Constitution was shaped primarily to fulfill those inalienable rights given to man by God as articulated in the Declaration of Independence. Theism or religion is not rejected just because the name “God” does not appear explicitly in the constitution. The delegates met in Philadelphia primarily because (as the Federalists argued) the Articles of Confederation were insufficient to properly protect the colonies therefore it was in each colonies best interest that a federal government be formed, albeit it a limited one. They wanted to form, as the preamble states, a more perfect union, establish justice as well as secure the blessings of Liberty. These ideas flowed from the founders Theistic worldview, thus religious not secular worldview.

Thoughts?

Gaby

Teabagging.

I am too bashful to say it here. Why don't you google it?

Or ask Senator David Vitter from Louisiana; he should know.

DITLD,

You definitely have one up on me. I have never heard of "tea-bagging" other than baggin tea leaves in a factory.

Also, I can not fathom how tea-bagging can be a sexual metaphor.

I am lost! But, I am not sure, I want to know!

Sorry, I think it's worth clearing up:

"That's because the Catholic Church considers itself the only true church, and its communion the only valid sacrament of the Eucharist."

Every faith that doesn't consider itself the truest or one true church or faith loses its legitimacy; after all, if it is not better than another, then it has no right to preach; it is lost to relativism which of course is self-contradictory.

The reason non-Catholics are not allowed to receive Communion is because Catholics believe the Eucharist is God. Fully and completely, in the flesh, you are consuming the body and blood, divinity in its entirety. As such, your body is a temple which must be kept clean. Mortal sin is a state in which even Catholics are not allowed to receive the Eucharist; it is an affront to allow the most pure and holy of beings to enter into a space that is not worthy; it is defilement.
In much the same way, non-Catholics, who do not believe that they are receiving the full divinity of the risen Christ, are not welcoming Him into their temples; their bodies are not fit to contain Christ.
Consider us exclusive ;)

Sorry, of course I meant to type Israel...

Gaby

Today, the conservative "tea party, tea-bag" protests against President Obama had a distinctly racist tone.

The problem is that it is difficult to discuss anything with conservatives, as long as so many of them taint the conservativce point of view with their juddgement of a person's skin color.

As far as many conservative Republicans and Christians are concerned, President Obama has the wrong color skin, as well as his wife and his two little girls.

This is going to be a nasty, running battle for the next 4 to 8 years.

And also, am I the only person in the world who knows what the verb "tea-bagging" means? It doesn't mean drinking tea; it is a sexual metaphor.

How can these conservative people be so naive and so stupid?

Susan,

I don't think any rational being wants to wipe Isreal of the face of this earth, but something needs to be done about the Isreali/Palestinian trials and tribulations.

Although I believe that the creation of Isreal in that part of the world was one of the biggest historical blunders ever, a Jewish state needed to be created in the aftermath of WWII. It's too bad that people who lived there for centuries had to forfeit their land.

In any case, the terrorists will not succeed! I am a firm believer that you reap what you sow. Eventually, groups like al-Quaeda, Hamas, the Taliban, etc., will not be welcome even in their Muslim strongholds.

Will their demise put an end to terrorism? No way! There will always be yet another human with enough money and charisma to entice others to follow him/her.

Even if we succeeded in wiping out poverty and starvation all over the planet, and made sure that everyone has equal rights (tongue-in-cheek comment here, because we all know that even in America that doesn't hold true), there will always be someone who wants the ultimate power. Sad, but true!

Whom is Obama trying to impress with his statements? Either he is ignorant or he is playing to a domestic audience. Either way, his comments are a waste of breath and bandwidth.

For many Muslims, denying God is the greatest sin. The term ‘infidel’ does not differentiate between people of other faiths and those with no faith. The idea of a governmental authority that does not recognize God is, to them, a form of barbarism.

Most of the radicals that came away impressed by Obama’s declaration (the one that America is not a Christian nation) live in the northeastern United States or western Europe. I don’t think the Muslim leaders in Tehran, Mecca or the caves of western Pakistan were all that impressed.

And as for not being at war with Islam, if your version of religious faith requires roadside bombs, high jacked airliners and a nuclear enrichment program, then I’m pretty sure we need to be at war with you.

Declare war on the Catholics as much as you want Susan, but at least the Pope doesn’t think he needs an A-bomb.

As I said, I too think Obama's comment that we aren't at war with the Muslim world was absolutely right. And, as I have stated many times in this column, I was strongly opposed to the war in Iraq, and I think those who believe there will be peace there after our troops leave are engaging in yet another American delusion.

But I think that it is also a delusion to believe that terrorism would end if Israel disappeared--which, make no mistake about it, is the terrorists' aim. But it is only one of their aims. Their version of Islam is not only an excuse for violence: the right to kill those who dissent is, in fact, the basis of their interpretation of their faith. They hate secular democracies, they hate Jews, they hate Americans, they hate westerners, and they hate Muslims who do not share their brand of Islam. That leaves a whole lot to hate, even if you succeed in wiping Israel off the face of the earth.

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,433 combat 844 non- hostile) and 91,403 – 99,794 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

continued below:

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

6. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

7. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

8. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

9. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan.

10. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

11. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

12. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

13. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

14. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

15. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Thank you Susan and Edward for your replies…

I agree with you Susan that there are other motivations that generate radical Islamists, and you and Edward have mentioned several. However, I believe that you, like most Americans, tend to downplay our role in inspiring their movements. These radicals would not receive the support that they do from rich Saudis and other Muslims but for our atrocious behavior relative to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and our preemptive invasion and occupation of Iraq to name just a few.

Just my opinion…

Susan, you wrote:

"Radical Islamists hate any government (including governments in majority Muslim nations) that is not a theocracy."

I am not sure that I necessarily agree with you here. I think that giving terrorists any religious label (be it Christian, Islamist, Hindu, or whatever) just gives them credence with followers of said religion, when in reality they are nothing but a bunch of murderous thugs.

Maybe by labeling them "Islamist radicals" instead of just terrorists perpetuates the problem. It gives moderates of the religion the feeling that Islam is to blame when in reality that is not the case.

Also, I think that terrorists are not after a theocracy, per se, but rather after a dictatorship where they can suppress the populace and enforce whatever misguided agendas they have.

I think the President was right with his statement and should be congratulated on it.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a concern and a tragedy but if it were ever solved the terrorists would find another hobby horse. Ultimately, their goal is power for themselves and until they have the control they want over the lands and people they would like to rule, they'll have an excuse. I don't think religion is the REASON for what they DO, it's an excuse for doing it.

Rick--

Excuse me, I misspoke myself. I didn't mean to imply that Israel had caused Islamist terorism; I was referring to the long dispute between Israelis and Palestinians.

Dear Rick,

I think their "stated reasons" are only a small part of their motivation. Otherwise, they wouldn't have launched attacks in Indonesia (which has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian issue at all), Spain (now one of the most secular nations in Europe), and Mumbai. They're just as interested in disrupting the existence of majority Muslim states that try to maintain some form of secular government. And they hate all forms of modernism. Their attack on education for women in Muslim countries is a dead giveaway on this. In a way, I think that makes Islamist terrorists more, rather than less, dangerous. I also think that those who believe these terrorists would disappear if, by some miracle, a peace settlement were reached in the Middle East are quite mistaken. It's my view that Israel is now as much a pretext for as a cause of Islamist terrorism.

The one point where you may be on thin ice Susan, is where you say that “radical Islamists…wish to murder Americans…not because they belong to "Christian nations" but because they endorse civil rights and liberties that transcend religion and civil laws that apply to all.”

The stated reason (stated by al-Qaeda) that we were attacked by al-Qaeda on 9-11 was because of our support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine and our stationing of troops in the Muslim holy land of Saudi Arabia.

I think that this is likely true. What do you think?

Rick Jones, Fredericksburg, VA

MMA Wiccan! Long time no see!

Paganplace is still around, too- just pops in and out like I do. I'm usually reading the site if I'm not posting.

There are some on this site that make getting to the real issues.. a little taxing, shall we say. We're all still here- just hiding in plain sight. We're kinda good like that. :)

Hi Wiccan!

Been wondering about you, and hope you stick around. Priver seems to be the only regular left out of the old Pagan crowd, although Lep posts occasionally.

Last week went beautifully, thanks! Always important and emotional for me.

Yeah, free speech doesn't mean one should always be blathering - certain posters here should keep that in mind.

Well said, Miss Susan. As usual, a post with a good deal of common sense. I'd like to thank you for giving us bloggers the respect of responding to our posts; I consider your blog one of the best learning places on wapo.com. Please don't let the kindergarten antics of some affect your posting.

Dia duit, Arminius! You were much on my mind last week. I hope this week finds you well.

Merry Meet, Priver! The trouble with "free speech" is that some people insist on giving your your money's worth! :-)

Thank you, Ms. Jacoby, for this.
I understand the feelings of those like Arminius and share them myself. I definitely appreciate your point of view here and share a lot of it. I wonder if there's any way that the WM can be contacted about these hijackings.

BTW, Susan, is your friend Ibn Warraq going to guest-comment this week?

Susan, first, a good essay and right to the point. It is madness to even suggest that America is a 'Christian' nation, and the dismal ignorance of our population dismays me. And before the religious right comes howling after me, I am Christian.

Second, your blog has always been one of my favorites. But I no longer post here because of the hijackers. They have driven a lot of good people away. And already one of them is back, so I doubt if I will be back soon.

Susan, even an atheist like yourself should not tolerate the bearing of false witness by using aliases and "straw men/women". I promised to limit my "alias alerts" to one per day and held fairly close to that promise except on occasion when Farnaz's rants needed to be challenged.

An apology by Farnaz for her conduct and a promise never to use aliases and/or "straw men/women" in the future would solve the problem.

What BO should have said: (for those eyes that have not seen or understood)

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty-ugly wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the pirate activities in Somalia, the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror?

The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

I agree with almost everything Susan said, the expected but gratuitous shot at Catholicism being the exception.

I posted last week, Susan responded, and there was a nice conversation going on until, as Susan put it, the comment section was 'hijacked'.

In that spirit, I can tell Susan that I absolutely teach the secular side of American history and I support the separation of church and state in no uncertain terms when I talk to my students. I also teach high school English and I have found that a knowledge of Christianity helps when teaching literature of the western tradition but this does not mean promoting it.

I don't mind a bit if readers know my true identity: Edward Montgomery, and that I teach in Nebraska. I usually don't post for the exact reasons Susan listed. It would be unfortunate if the actions of some posters intereferred with an opportunity to communicate with an author like Susan and I, for one, appreciate it when any of the commentators responds.

America should go to war with no religions and all theocracies.

Seeing our leader bow to the king of a land where a rape victim was sentenced (later commuted due to international reaction) to 200 lashes or where an 8-year-old is married to a man in his fifties to settle a family debt, is a disgrace.

I can hardly wait until America achieves energy independence, and we can start treating that country like the medieval barbarians they are.