Public Schools Are For Education, Period

i see noreason that students should not be given this time off. I have a hindu friend who does not mind our two week break from dec. 20 to jan 5 or so. In our school it is called WINTER break, not CHRISTMAS break. we have this time off because of the majority of Jewish and Christian students in our school. I also have atheist friends and jewish friends who do not care at all about the time we have off. Most students don't care, its the parents and the radicals who believe that something is wrong. In reality, we don't care what holiday we get off, as long as we get some sort of break. We also do not have time off for passover, Easter, or any other big holiday. We only have Thanksgiving, Winter break, Spring break the first week of April and other national holidays off...... what's wrong with that?

Farnaz1Mansouri1:

You wrote: "So long as we close or cancel classes for Christian and Jewish holidays, we must do the same for the sacred days of other religions."

My disagreement is with the above - it is reasonable for secular reasons alone to close / cancel classes for Christian / Jewish holidays without doing the same for other religious holidays.

As our administration demonstrated, the decision to include Jewish holidays (as an example) had nothing to do with equitable treatment of religions - it had to do with the large number of staff (both classroom instructors and substitute teachers) who historically took personal days on those holidays. As a result of this large rate of absence, it become a logistical challenge to hold class on those days.

If it became a logistical challenge to hold class on a specific Muslim / Hindu / Pastafarian holiday, I have no doubt we would adjust our public school schedule accordingly.

Onofrio,

On Levertov: I, too, prefer the poem on a theme suggested by Merton. Interestingly, the notion that God needs man, suffers with man is distinctly Jewish, but it seems to be also a theme in hristianity/Catholicism. Am very fond of Thomas Merton, though not so much on his views of homosexuality.

As for Levertov was Hassidic, but converted and became an Anglican priest. I confess, though she was an important poet, I've rarely been able to warm up to her work, with the exception of some of the Christian and Vietnam poems.

Have been thinking about hypostaseis. Found this link at Wikipedia on Egyptian "trinitarianism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion

Like you, the author likens the Egyptian notion to that of Christianity. Are there any historic connections?

IN REPLY TO (IRT
ONOFRIO
“THE TRINITY”
POSTED ON JULY 15, 2009 10:20 AM

IRT:
"Now that is as foolish as not believing God when he says there is a Trinity."
Nowhere in the Christian scriptures does God say there is a Trinity."

ANS:
My dear friend, it is plain to see, that Jesus says He is God; He speaks of the Father, and He speaks of the Spirit, promising to send the Spirit to guard the Church from error till the end of time.

Moreover, at Jesus’ baptism the Father says, “This is my beloved Son of whom I am well pleased.” Moreover, in the “Ten Commandments,” God says He is the One True God. He is One God three Divine Persons, a mystery only God can comprehend, but a mystery revealed to man.

The existence of the Trinity is abundantly explained on the link you were given. If you’re not going to read the link, than you’re being frivolous and officious and there is no answer to a closed mind.

Scripture is replete with the Father, who tells Moses, “I AM WHO AM and not “WE AM” but “I AM.” God calls Jesus the "Son" and God the Holy Spirit is promised to God's Church. Consequently “Only One God, the Divine Persons, the Trinity. Even a First Grader can figure out from this there is a Trinity.

Devise all the objections you wish, but objections cannot trump unequivocal truth but runs from it. If one doesn't understand it, the problem is theirs not the fault of the Truth. Truth doesn’t care who knows it

IRT:
*Trinity* is an extrabiblical interpretive term. No reported canonical utterance of God has ever mentioned it.

ANS:
The Trinity is three persons in one God. Jesus is God, and he did mention all three persons viz. My Father, the “Spirit“, and the “Son of God.” Their existence is profuse in Scripture.

IRT:
“You imply that someone who recognises this fact is *foolish*.”

ANS:
False, I said NOT to recognize the Trinity is foolish. It’s no different than looking at a baby being born and denying it is a human before you suck out its brains. No one can prove anything to a person who denies the stark reality that stares them in the face.

IRT;
"One can interpret the NT trio in numerous ways."

ANS:
Yes, and they have. That’s why there are 26 to 35,000 different Christian denominations in the world. But, you see, the astucious God, who is Omniscient and Prescient left His True Church with the THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY, the Holy Spirit to protect His Church from error in its beliefs and teachings because man without God is subject to error.

Consequently, God's Church is infallible in Her Universal Religious principles and Moral teachings. Hence, Jesus told Peter, what ever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven and what ever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven. That is why Christ is the Head and His Church the vine. God feeds the branches, viz. God feeds man the truth through the Vine’s branches.

Now all interpretations that contradict those of the Catholic (which isn’t in the Bible either) Church are in error.

Hi Onofrio!

I'm enjoying your posts as always. As you said, the number three is a big deal everywhere one looks - religions are brimming with the consequences of applying the number three to metaphysical ruminations.

And teleologies, religious and otherwise, are never out of fashion....some more appealing than others; and in the end amounts to endless if creative speculation, and signifies nothing - a cipher that by itself may provide a clue to the nature of our true origins.

A particularly insightful speculator once surmized that having a physical form in a physical world is not only highly addictive - but is something that cogitators insist on making sense of. So goes our fate!

best regards, Persiflege

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_(number)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology

Farnaz,

Many thanks for sharing the Levertov poems.

I particularly like the Adam poem, being enamoured of fragments and their mention.

"...God / suffers the void that is his absence." Pure gold!

Persiflage,

Regarding matters dogmatic, trinitarian, and catholic...

Your post is wonderfully insightful and elegant, gets to the heart of things. Unfortunately, I did not catch it before I posted just now contra TTWSYF. If I had, I would not have bothered to submit my lumpen rant.

I salute!

Denise Levertov was homeschooled and therefore was free of any forced "holiholyday" off-days.

And did she finally see the angelic light?

"She became a Roman Catholic in the last decade of her life."

Wikipedia

"Public Schools Are For Education, Period?"

What is "Period" What is education? One dictionary describes it as the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Knowledge requires the acquisition of Truth. Proper judgment requires the proper use of truth and reason, and therefore, the basics of the laws of logic deducting and inducting from known truths.

Knowledge is the conformation of reality with the intellect. There can be no knowledge if what the intellect perceives is not truth.

Maturity is the act of development towards perfection in accordance with truth and knowledge, viz. the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight. Maturity is the perfection of the virtues of Wisdom, Prudence, Temperance, Charity, Honesty, Chastity, Courage and Fortitude. These virtues help man harmonize into the social order.

Now God is Pure Actuality, without potency (Aristotle). Since God is perfect, God is All Good; God’s Essence is His Existence. Since Evil is the lack of Good, there is no Evil in God.

God's existence is manifested in His Creation, permeated in man’s essence and conscience that he may discern Good and Evil.

Further, God is manifested in man’s innate nature in that man is drawn to perfection in his acts. Namely, Man always acts for the Good or an apparent good, viz. man strives to be perfect.

Consequently man seeks God who is All Perfect. Hence, man’s destiny is to be perfect, namely to imitate Christ that is the perfection man seeks. To obtain perfection is man’s purpose in life by his very nature.

Consequently, education must teach man to perfect himself, via to be in accord with his nature and therefore society. When we say schools are “to teach period.” that does not exclude the spiritual nature of man. Man’s needs are both material and spiritual. If Education is only limited to the material side, then Man is only half educated.

Consequently, Religious holidays only fortify the significance of the value of God’s relationship to man, as demonstrated in the "Declaration" and "Bill of Rights." We reciprocate our dependence on God by giving God homage, since God, whom man inadvertently seeks, is the source of all perfection. Education without the influence of a Divine Creator leaves man only half educated.

TTWSYF,

This is all special pleading.

You wrote:
"Now that is as foolish as not believing God when he says there is a Trinity."

Nowhere in the Christian scriptures does God say there is a Trinity.

*Trinity* is an extrabiblical interpretive term. No reported canonical utterance of God has ever mentioned it. You imply that someone who recognises this fact is *foolish*.

One can interpret the NT trio in numerous ways, as the controversies of the early church show - tritheism, modalism, subordinationism, Arianism, etc. That such interpretations thrived shows that the Scriptures themselves are by no means transparently conclusive on this triple matter. Trinitarian Orthodox dogmatists won the chess game, is all, and thus read Trinitarian Orthodox terms back into the sacred texts.

I do not claim that *Trinity* is necessarily an invalid way to characterise God's nature. Not at all. I appreciate trinity more than you suppose. Nevertheless I do object to your presumptuous insistence that God said there is a Trinity. I call that false witness.

And you still remain abashedly silent about your approval (even practice) of self-flagellation.

In addition to the enormous foundational debt owed to the earlier Greeks, the metaphysics of Catholic monotheism always comes down to hair-splitting, historically speaking. The defenders of orthodoxy have generally been talented polemicists!

The winners of an ancient and initially heterodox religious free-for-all are now free to declare the articles of the true faith, while the losers are consigned to heresy hell. Such is the case with the doctrine of the Trinity.

But then again, there are still plenty of active contemporary christians that remain unconvinced - apparently not taken in by the smoke and mirrors required to 'prove' the unity in substance, of the Father and the Son e.g. 'the Father and I are one'. Such literalism! And other RCC doctrines are equally hard to fathom.....

The development of church doctrines and dogma 'after the historical fact' and over many centuries, has always been a clear and obvious effort to provide internal 'consistency' to the supernaturally based ontology of the Church by way of 'emergent' Church dogma that matriculates to orthodoxy.

The winners of the Trinitarian dispute are still splitting literalist hairs, and always will be - ranging from early declarations of the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection to the contemporary doctrine of the bodily assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven.

All such emerging truth is said to come from no less an expert source than the third person of that Holy Trinity - the Holy Spirit.

As usual, articles of religious faith are true only for those pre-disposed and willing to be convinced of their truth.

Could anything possibly be more subjective, not to mention unprovable??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ONOFRIO
“ABSURDITY BEGETS ABSURDITY AND SETTLES IN THE MINDS OF THE PRECONDITIONED”
POSTED BY: ON JULY 15, 2009 1:39 AM

IRT:
“Note that you still have not denied being a flagellant,nor have you supplied any quote from God that says there is a Trinity. I shall have to conclude that you are indeed a devoted masochist who bears false witness about God's statements.”

ANS;
With faulty logic, it is possible to conclude anything, especially when you have not the facts or knowledge of which you speak.

You shouldn’t critique things you have little or no knowledge of. It could make you look foolish. It’s evident that you have little or no knowledge of the Scriptures or you wouldn’t have asked such a question that is so obvious and easily provable by just checking the New Testament. Apparently, you do not know what the Trinity is or you would have known that the Trinity Is ubiquitously manifested throughout Scripture, and profusely in the New Testament. The link below is an elaborate and conclusive proof, if you want your answer, and want to know what you are talking about.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

New Testament
“The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step.

First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of

the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

On a Theme by Thomas Merton

"Adam, where are you?"
God's hands
palpate darkness, the void
that is Adam's inattention,
his confused attention to everything,
impassioned by multiplicity, his despair.

Multiplicity, his despair;
God's hands
enacting blindness. Like a child
at a barbaric fairgrounds --
noise, lights, the violent odors --
Adam fragments himself. The whirling rides!

Fragmented Adam stares.
God's hands
unseen, the whirling rides
dazzle, the lights blind him. Fragmented,
he is not present to himself. God
suffers the void that is his absence.

--Denise Levertov

Denise Levertov was homeschooled.

And did she finally see the angelic light?

"She became a Roman Catholic in the last decade of her life."

Wikipedia

Onofrio,

The Jacob's Ladder

The stairway is not
a thing of gleaming strands
a radiant evanescence
for angels' feet that only glance in their tread, and need not
touch the stone.

It is of stone.
A rosy stone that takes
a glowing tone of softness
only because behind it the sky is a doubtful, a doubting
night gray.

A stairway of sharp
angles, solidly built.
One sees that the angels must spring
down from one step to the next, giving a little
lift of the wings:

and a man climbing
must scrape his knees, and bring
the grip of his hands into play. The cut stone
consoles his groping feet. Wings brush past him.
The poem ascends.

--Denise Levertov

Je metypo made. EsperAmos (que si!)

My oh my, what a lucky foray...
=======================
lucky foray...for ay..for aye--Esperemos que si!

For those in Australia and the USA interested in only eliminating the "holiholydays" of Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur from school calendars see:

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

Excerpt from the second reference:

Chapter VII
by Joseph McCabe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Forgery of the Old Testament
Contents

How We Detect the Forgery
The Priestly Forgers
The Mistakes of Moses
The Mythical History of the Jews
The Truth About the Prophets
Pious Fiction "

TTWSYF,

I note that you still have not denied being a flagellant, nor have you supplied any quote from God that says there is a Trinity.

I shall have to conclude that you are indeed a devoted masochist who bears false witness about God's statements.

"Bedazzling"

Serendipity (:^.

Seren-

-dipity doo dah, dipity ay,

My oh my, what a lucky foray...

"one with which to disagree"

Ah Israel, that Jabbok wrestler :^)

With God - opposition is true friendship?

Nongod knows...
==================
You, know, that is really something. No one, and I mean no one, including the pre-eminent Peretz scholar, has made that connection. Bedazzling.

Farnaz,

"one with which to disagree"

Ah Israel, that Jabbok wrestler :^)

With God - opposition is true friendship?

Nongod knows...

With said downsizing, the public schools could reduce school time significantly thereby eliminating any problems with the current "holiholyday" situations.
==========
There has been considerable success with home schooling, but not on the college level! As a general solution, I doubt it could work since in most families with two parents, both work, in many with one parent, the one parent works. Then, too, not all parents are equipped to handle it, notwithstanding the many impressive supports.

As for online learning at the university level, the jury is still out. At present, many, many colleges offer courses that are fully online or that meet but a few times during the term.

Still, given the numerous college-student populations, more comparative performance studies need to be done. Cheating of various sorts, plagiarism, are huge problems these days, and if all or most courses were online, more would have to be done to thwart would-be delinquents. Then, there would come the matter of radically changing an entrenched institution. Not that it could not be done....

TTWSYF,

Thee:
"That doesn’t’ sound very much alone to me."

Jesus Christ was a local hero when peddling miracles round the shores of Galilee.

And yes, he became popular in certain circles after his execution, among those who claimed they were possessed by his ghost and could keep up the hoodoo.

But you neglect the in-between, which I find supremely disingenuous in a Catholic.

According to your canonical stories, Christ was deserted by his closest followers when arrested. Even your first *pope* denied him. And apart from two wretches who were crucified with him, he died alone, broken, and God-forsaken on Golgotha.

That's what I meant by Christ's *singular stand*. Strange that a ratbag like me would understand that better than you, who dotes pathetically on the Stations of the Cross.

Onofrio,

Yes, I thought that was what you meant. Perused the web a bit on this. Much in the region, though not in Judaism, with the three-in-one. Same obtains with the Eucharist, of course.

The Tanakh, of course, also has regional influences. (Duh :])

Peretz hoped for a secular world, yet was continually stymied on the matter of morality, which presented him with a paradox. We need religion, thought he, as a system for moral reference, on some points, one with which to disagree.

TTWSYF

Thee:
"You defined Hugo as a mad man and tried to impugn his character. Not withstanding, you claimed he didn’t know who he was and that he was a paranoid trying to imitate Victor Hugo."

Wrong. What I did was prick your pompous deployment of Hugo characters to ornament your flagellant autodogmatism. I used a camp quip by Cocteau to make the point that Hugo's enormous celebrity eclipsed the man. You too were trading in that celebrity aura, which left even the real Victor Hugo looking like some mad impostor. You then demonstrated your lumpen lack of wit by doling out a treatise on the popularity of Hugo, and a forensic refutation of his *madness*. A case study in both overkill and missing the point.

If Hugo was as self-floggingly sarcophobic as you, I daresay he would never have developed the sense of human interest required to write Les Miserables et alii.

Considering the success of many home school programs, internet education (Phoenix U et al), the Learning, History, Discovery, NASA and National Geographic Channels, PBS, educational CD's, PC and Mac educational programs, large screen and HD TV, is it not time to downsize schools in general? Other than laboratory (physics, chemistry, home economics, biology, electronics, building trades and biochemistry) and proficiency testing do we need the rest of anymore?

Physical ed can be privitized to the current fitness centers. And considering the very few who benefit from sports like football, basketball and baseball, let the interested parents run these operations just like they do very successfully with Little League.

With said downsizing, the public schools could reduce school time significantly thereby eliminating any problems with the current "holiholyday" situations.

Farnaz,

"I meant to ask if it weren't hypostaseis, the thing in itself, as it were, not merely like-ness, or have I lost you somewhere?"

I'm deploying hypostasis in its Christian theological sense, with regard to the distinct *persons* of the Trinity. The Egyptian trinities were like the Christian one in that the distinction was maintained between the divine *persons* of the unity. That's what I was aiming for, but got all tangled in Greenglish. Sorry for being misleading :^)

TTWSYF,

"Hmm, do you still think Jesus was alone?"

On the cross, yes.

Even God forsook him.

Muckenfuss,

Ziegeunerwiesen--Itzhak Perlman w/James Levine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEmbFSiJzEQ&feature=related

Saint-Saens, Introduction & Rondo

Capriccioso--Itzhak Perlman w/New York Philharmonic, Zubin Mehta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQyXWkABo0

FYIColumbiaMD:

Re: Your post

A couple of years ago, the college where I work reviewed school holidays since it had been recommended that classes be canceled on Veterans Day. A not insignificant number of our students are veterans, and a larger number had or have relatives who served in the armed forces. Many currently serve in the National Guard, and the community sponsors any number of events on Veterans day.

Those who strongly supported the holiday suggested that classes be held during the Friday after Thanksgiving, that we eliminate "Presidents Week," take the time from Christmas or Easter weeks, currently dubbed Winter and Spring recess, etc. Since the days of Rosh Hashhanah, Yom Kippur do not always fall out on weekdays, they could not, logically, be eliminated as school holidays to compensate for Veterans Day.

Faculty with young children nixed all of those recommendations since, for the most part, their children's public school closings were consistent with those of the college.

In the end, Veterans Day was simply added to the list.

At present, many of us would like to see Presidents Week end, the anniversaries of Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays celebrated on the correct dates, etc. However, we recognize that nothing can be done without change in the public school system.

In the meantime, we have an increasingly diverse student body with sizable Muslim and Hindu communities. Alongside them, the number of Muslim and Hindu faculty is growing, as is the number of students and faculty practicing other religions.

Whether these folks are religious or not, many of us think, is besides the point. So long as we close or cancel classes for Christian and Jewish holidays, we must do the same for the sacred days of other religions. In the meantime, we witness already insufficient teaching/learning time diminish.

What to do?

Back on the topic:

Hopefully the food replication "miracle" never becomes a school "holiholyday".

To wit:

And there were no food replicators in the first century CE just as there are none now except in Star Trek reruns.

John 6:1-15 etc.

Another story borrowed from the OT and embellished to turn the simple preacher man into the Jewish Messiah:

"Elisha feeds 100 people
A man came from Baal-shalishah, bringing food from the first fruits to the man of God: twenty loaves of barley and fresh ears of grain in his sack. Elisha said, "Give it to the people and let them eat." But his servant said, "How can I set this before a hundred people?" So he repeated, "Give it to the people and let them eat, for thus says the LORD, 'They shall eat and have some left.'" He set it before them, they ate, and had some left, according to the word of the LORD. (2Kings 4:42-44 NRSV)"

Two comments by historical Jesus exegetes:

"Gerd Lüdemann
Lüdemann (Jesus, 45) offers the following historical judgment of the account in Mark 6:

The formation of this story derives from the needs of the community. Its historical value is nil. Anyone is free to accept the table fellowship of Jesus and his followers as a starting point for the rise of this story. But that is rather different from the feeding of the 5000.

"John P. Meier

Meier (Marginal Jew II,966) suggests that the Gospel stories of Jesus feeding a multitude preserves a tradition about "some especially memorable communal meal of bread and fish" but does not think it possible to offer a judgment on whether anything miraculous was involved in the meal event. See pp. 950-967 for his complete discussion. "

Actually all of the "miracles" of Jesus to include his resurrection fail the critical historical tests of attestations and timing.

TTWSY,

I'm a bit surprised at your defense of Victor Hugo.

From Wikipedia:

Hugo's religious views changed radically over the course of his life. In his youth, he identified himself as a Catholic and professed respect for Church hierarchy and authority. From there he became a non-practising Catholic, and expressed increasingly violent anti-catholic and anti-clerical views. He dabbled in Spiritualism during his exile (where he participated also in seances), and in later years settled into a Rationalist Deism similar to that espoused by Voltaire. A census-taker asked Hugo in 1872 if he was a Catholic, and he replied, "No. A Freethinker".

Hugo never lost his antipathy towards the Roman Catholic Church, due largely to what he saw as the Church's indifference to the plight of the working class under the oppression of the monarchy; and perhaps also due to the frequency with which Hugo's work appeared on the Pope's list of "proscribed books" (Hugo counted 740 attacks on Les Misérables in the Catholic press). On the deaths of his sons Charles and François-Victor, he insisted that they be buried without crucifix or priest, and in his will made the same stipulation about his own death and funeral. However, although Hugo believed Catholic dogma to be outdated and dying, he never directly attacked the institution itself. He also remained a deeply religious man who strongly believed in the power and necessity of prayer.

Hugo's Rationalism can be found in poems such as Torquemada (1869, about religious fanaticism), The Pope (1878, violently anti-clerical), Religions and Religion (1880, denying the usefulness of churches) and, published posthumously, The End of Satan and God (1886 and 1891 respectively, in which he represents Christianity as a griffin and Rationalism as an angel). "Religions pass away, but God remains", Hugo declared. Christianity would eventually disappear, he predicted, Template:Act but people would still believe in "God, Soul, and the Power."

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ONOFRIO
“LONERS?”
POSTED ON JULY 14, 2009 12:33 AM

IRT:
With this regard, I recall the fate of Christ, ultimately alone in his singular stand.

ANS:
To the contrary, this doesn’t sound like a loner to me. the crowds followed Him everywhere/ He needed a boat at times to get away from them, “Mt 13:2

The multitudes followed Him to a point where they had no food or drink. He fed 5,000 (men) and 7,000 men in addition to their families. Matt 15: 39cf.

And there is Zacheus (Luke 19: 2cf.). So many people were following Jesus, Zacheus had to climb a tree to see Him.

Mark11: 4cf.
On Jesus’ enter Jerusalem…the whole multitude of his disciples began with joy to praise God with a loud voice, for all the mighty works they had seen…the Pharisees, from amongst the multitude, said to him: Master, rebuke thy disciples. 40 To whom he said: I say to you that if these shall hold their peace, the stones will cry out.

ACTS 2 After the Crucifixion:
“Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying:

“Behold, are not all these that speak Galilean? And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,

Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all astonished, and wondered..."

That doesn’t’ sound very much alone to me. And note, this wasn’t just a little band of rabble speaking hear but the whole of Jerusalem, devout Jew and Gentiles etc. Hmm, do you still think Jesus was alone?

Hi Muckenfuss,

Glad you enjoyed "Concierto de Aranjuez"! Yes, sublime! Here is link, from Wikipedia, on its history, significance, etc.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Wikipedia+concierto+de+aranjuez&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Hi Onofrio,

Re, Osiris, and king all remained distinct, like hypostaseis!
==========
Fascinating. Actually, it IS hypostaseis, isn't it, or am I losing you somewhere?
=====================
Sorry, if I was unclear--I wasn't meaning to correct! You had written "Like hupostaseis." I meant to ask if it weren't hypostaseis, the thing in itself, as it were, not merely like-ness, or have I lost you somewhere?

Farnaz :)

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ONOFRIO
VICTOR HUGO
POSTED ONJULY 14, 2009 12:33 AM
:
IRT:
“Several of the world's most infamous tyrants have been heartily endorsed by significantly more than two million of their subjects.”

ANS:
The discussion was whether Victor Hugo was a mad man who didn't know who he was, not if his beliefs were politically correct. You defined Hugo as a mad man and tried to impugn his character. Not withstanding, you claimed he didn’t know who he was and that he was a paranoid trying to imitate Victor Hugo.

False! He knew very well who he was and he was not a mad man as you claimed. Moreover, those who adored him knew who he was, apparently a man for all seasons.

IRT:
“Does that make the lone dissenter nuts?”

ANS:
It depends on the dissident's beliefs. There was no hallucinations about who Victor Hugo was except yours; he was Victor Hugo, and those who thought he wasn’t are good mataerial for the Loony Tunes.

IRT:
Was Copernicus nuts about all that heliocentric biz?

ANS
Copernicus wasn’t alone in his beliefs; they certainly weren't thought of as fantasies; no one was calling him a lunatic, or a mad man, nor was that said of Hugo.

Again, you changed the subject. You claimed Hugo was a mad man trying to imitate himself which would make him a little strange if not mad. I showed he wasn’t. I also pointed out he knew who he was, and his followers under no circumstances depicted him as a madman. That was your conclusion.

It's kind of hard to pigeonhole Copernicus as a dissident. "Among the GREAT polymaths of the Renaissance, Copernicus was a [a well respected] mathematician, astronomer, physician, quadrilingual polyglot,[2] classical scholar, translator, artist,[3] Catholic cleric, jurist, governor, military leader, diplomat and economist."

You might make note that Copernicus was a Catholic prelate whose uncle was a Bishop who financed his education.

So much for the pollywogs who claim Christianity is a contradiction of Science, even though our nation was founded on Christian Moral Law.

To the contrary, Christianity was and is the avant-garde of Science and Education. There are more Christian Universities in the world than all other universities combined.

"Among Copernicus’s many responsibilities, astronomy figured as little more than an "avocation." His work stimulated His epochal book, (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), published in 1543 just before he died, is often regarded as the starting point of modern astronomy.

It was a defining epiphany that began the Scientific Revolution and furthered scientific investigations. Thus, it became a landmark in the history of modern science that is now often referred to as the Copernican Revolution.”

Hmm, Copernicus doesn’t sound too isolated to me. More so, he was a man for all seasons.

Farnaz:

Thanks for the links to the second movement of Concierto de Aranjuez. Its quite sublime. The oboe carries me away. It is a very difficult instrument to play, probably only second to the cello. I had a dozen or so oboe lessons when I was a kid. Decided to stick with keyboard! Much easier.

Onofrio wrote:

"Farnaz,

Re Boxing Day.

Quite a mystery, that. There is a meaning, I'm sure, but no one bothers to know it. It's just *the day after Christmas*. "

Actually, boxing day is a British invention, and it denotes the day after Christmas, or St. Stephen's day, when one traditionally removes all the empty boxes from ones' house that are left over from Christmas.

The original boxing day, however, named the day after Christmas as the time for the upper classes to distribute cash and other durable goods to the lower classes, the uppers having exchanged gifts on or before Christmas day.

FWIW - I had the privilege of working with our local school administration on the school calendar and the discussion of religious holidays was raised. The view of our administration was interesting - the decision as to whether to include the day as a holiday was actually more dependent on the available staff of teachers than the attendance of students.

That is, prior to including certain Jewish holidays in the school calendar, the schools were challenged to ensure that they had enough staff in attendance those days to conduct class. The administration was tracking this issue with Muslim holidays, but did not yet have a challenge.

The administration was very accommodating to students taking leave for religious reasons - but its approach to including holidays was thoroughly pragmatic.

Back to the topic:

Two more references for your perusal. Said references go into greater detail as to why there should no Easter, Christmas or Good Friday "holiholydays" listed on any calendars to include school calendars.

1) The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (Paperback)
by John Dominic Crossan

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Mediterranean-Jewish-Peasant/dp/0060616296/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247570852&sr=8-1

2) Excavating Jesus: Beneath the Stones, Behind the Texts by John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed

http://www.amazon.com/Excavating-Jesus-Beneath-Stones-Behind/dp/0060616342/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247571312&sr=1-1

I think -eis is plural in the Greek, though am happy to be corrected by Greeklings.

Re, Osiris, and king all remained distinct, like hypostaseis!
==========
Fascinating. Actually, it IS hypostaseis, isn't it, or am I losing you somewhere?

Astuciousness

Astucious Lucius
Confucius, Crusius

Astucious Confucius

TTWSYF wants to sushi us

Farnaz,

Further:

Collective humanity called the "flock of god", and understood to be "images" of god.

Ockinga: Die Gottebenbildlichkeit im Alten Ägypten und im Alten Testament (Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1984)

Hornung: 'Der Mensch als "Bild Gottes" in Ägypten' in Oswald Loretz: Die Gottebenbildlichkeit des Menschen (München 1967, 123-156)

Farnaz,

Some Aegyptiaca (forgive the dryness):

Before it was applied to Mary in the great Christological disputes, "mother of God" was a principal epithet of the great goddess Isis - mwt-ntr in Egyptian. She could also be designated "Lady" and "Mistress of Heaven". Her son was the divine child Horus, miraculously conceived after the death of his father Osiris, and destined to be king.

Isis and Horus took refuge from the infanticidal usurper Seth in the marshes of the Nile Delta (= the *Flight to Egypt* escape from Herod).

In Graeco-Roman Egypt, the *Holy Family* of Alexandria was the triad Isis (mother), Harpocrates (Horus the child), and Serapis (the cosmic god, manifesting a conflation of Osiris, the Apis bull, Hades, and Zeus, with a bit of Helios, Dionysos and even Asklepios thrown in) = the Catholic *Holy Family* of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. The Alexandrian triad reflected the more ancient Egyptian tradition of grouping local deities into threes, eg. Amun, Mut, and Khonsu (Thebes), Ptah, Sekhmet, and Nefertem (Memphis), to name just a couple.

The New Kingdom (c.1550 - 1070 BC) saw the development of fully perichoretic trinities of male deities, as expressed in hymns and in the *Books of the Underworld* in the Valley of the Kings.

The solar creator god could be envisaged as Re-Atum-Khepri - three distinct solar personalities unified in the solar disk: Re = the containing disk itself; Atum = the sun as primeval being and in its evening aspect: beginning and completion, alpha and omega; Khepri = the sun in its morning aspect, the one who perpetually comes into being.

Even closer to the Christian trinity is that of Re, Osiris, and the king. Re is the creator god (alpha) and principle of unity, cyclical time, perpetual motion; Osiris is principle of permanence (omega), linear time, stasis, death-in-life, life-in-death; the king is the paradigm individual, the anointed representative of humanity. All three are mutually indwelling. The king, as "Son of Re", is the earthly representative and incarantion of the creator. As Horus, the ideal king, he is also "Son of Osiris". The perichoretic relationship between Re and Osiris is expressed in the formula: "Re rests in Osiris; it is Osiris who rests in Re". They are understood to be the souls of one another. And the king in death is called "the Osiris (name)" being identified completely with Osiris (and thus Re as well). Despite all of this perichoresis, the Egyptians never dissolved the identities of the members of the trinity. Re, Osiris, and king all remained distinct, like hypostaseis!

In the the theology of the god Amun (the transcendent "Hidden One") from the Ramesside period (contemporary with early Israel) we find the explicitly three-in-one/one-in-three trinity Amun, Re, and Ptah: identity hidden as Amun, cosmic authority manifest as Re, body manifest on earth as Ptah. Not all that dissimilar to Holy Spirit, Father, and Son!

Onofrio,

YOu to Muckenfuss:

Actually, Muckenfuss, the Egyptians pioneered trinities and divine perichoresis as well as the resurrection you mention. And there are plenty of other Egyptian anticipations of RCC traditions/doctrines, but I won't bore you with them here. :^)

May it suffice to say that the Pope would have more in common with Pharaoh than with Moses.
=======================
Fascinating. I recall having read somewhere that the notion of a trinity had its roots in ancient Egypt, but lo and behold, here it is in Wikipedia, which also explains that the Pharoah was viewed aa both human and God incarnate. (Vaguely knew he was believed to be part deity of some sort....) Hence, if you are correct in your analogy, you must be careful when speaking of the pope. :0

I, for one, would be fascinated, far from bored, to know more about this, whenever you are inspired to descant. (Did you know "astucious" is a word? I shall be seeking opportunities to use it for the next three months. I adore it--don't know why. Will be forever grateful to TTWSY. What does it rhyme with? Lucius....)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion

Muckenfuss,

Thee to TTWSYF:
"Roman Catholicism" .... "offers nothing new or unique. Virgin birth? Hardly! Resurrection from the dead? The Egyptians beat them to it. The trinity? What a joke. One schizoid god with three personalities."

Actually, Muckenfuss, the Egyptians pioneered trinities and divine perichoresis as well as the resurrection you mention. And there are plenty of other Egyptian anticipations of RCC traditions/doctrines, but I won't bore you with them here. :^)

May it suffice to say that the Pope would have more in common with Pharaoh than with Moses.

Muckenfuss,

Did you know there's a whole body of work on the "metaphysics of science," i.e., focusing on "laws," etc.

Muckenfuss,

Thanks for the link! VERY interesting!

Farnaz :)

Muckenfuss,

Concierto de Aranjuez 2nd movement

Julian Bream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1WgoSfV_Kg

Miles Davis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nur-WbuFQ4Q

Santana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBLckMtQr40

Muckenfuss,

Concierto de Aranjuez, 2nd movement

Paco de Lucia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8LL1x6J2rU

Jim Hall, Roland Hanna, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, et al
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQoLiAOX4XU&feature=PlayList&p=5286D6E0639C9742&index=0&playnext=1

John Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1WgoSfV_Kg

TTWSYF,

Thee, re Victor Hugo,
"Two million knew who he was; those who elected him, knew who he was. You know what they say about one who thinks two million people are nuts, and they're the only one who isn't, don’t you?

Several of the world's most infamous tyrants have been heartily endorsed by significantly more than two million of their subjects.

Does that make the lone dissenter nuts?

Was Copernicus nuts about all that heliocentric biz?

With this regard, I recall the fate of Christ, ultimately alone in his singular stand. According to your laboured *Victor Hugo* defense, all Christ's thronging erstwhile fans who took back their Hosannas must have been right - how could so many be wrong - and that the offically condemned Jesus was a solitary madman.

Geese and ganders spring to mind.

TTWSYF,

Thee:
"Now that is as foolish as not believing God when he says there is a Trinity."

Cite me a reference where the Christian God actually says, QUOTE:

*There is a Trinity.*

And before you go quoting various *Father, Son and Holy Spirit* NT benedictions, note, nowhere in Christian Scripture is this trio termed A TRINITY.

The term *Trinity* refers to a theological construct, at best an inference, developed by early councils of the church, and is NEVER used by Tanakh *Lord* and his prophets, NT *God*, Jesus, or any epistling apostle.

The notion of a co-eternal perichoretic unity of three divine hypostaseis is AN INTERPRETATION wrung from the Greek NT, and read back into the (enduringly non-trinitarian) Tanakh.

*The Trinity* PER SE has never been mentioned explicitly in any statement attributed directly to the Christian God.

So how can one disbelieve a statement that this God NEVER MADE?

According to the Torah, *the Lord* of Israel DID say "You shall not bear false witness".

To those in Australia interested in why Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur should not be "holiholydays" read the following references:

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=275_The_Empty_Tomb

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

J.D Crossan and R.G. Watt's book, Who is Jesus ??

Farnaz,

Re Boxing Day.

Quite a mystery, that. There is a meaning, I'm sure, but no one bothers to know it. It's just *the day after Christmas*.

Australians in general are zealously committed to their *days off*, regardless of commemorative meaning. Hell, we still *celebrate* Queen Victoria's birthday (formerly with DIY fireworks - ah, those were the days!)...

I would say that any attempt to dissolve, relocate, or otherwise tamper with the current Austral public holidays - due to concern over *Christian* bias - would meet with stiff irreligious resistance. :^)

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

One important thing that atheists have in common is that by definition we don’t believe that God exists.

Atheist doesn’t mean to be against God, because that will be illogical. You can’t be against something that you don’t believe that exists.

There are innumerable paths to become an atheist. In my case, and probably for many atheists, the path is very simple: we don’t find a verifiable proof of God. This is why you could find a good portion of all atheists just waiting for a good and verifiable proof.

An “a priori” proof, that is one that uses only logical arguments, is not enough. A logical proof doesn’t lead to anything concrete. If intellectually accepting that God exists implies that I have to comply with what other humans want me to do based on a message from God, it becomes a more complex situation.

If that is the case I not only want a proof of God, but I also want to be sure which of the thousands and thousands of geographic entities claimed by humans to be the real God is actually the real one. Then additionally I want proof that those who claim to represent that real God are His valid and real representatives and the message they have from Him has not been contaminated.

Now TTWSYF, you have here a soul that could be saved if you provide that proof. You referred other posters to Wikipedia, but most of the proofs I found there are logical argumentations.

What could save me from eternal damnation is a proof similar to the one that you will ask if somebody tells you that just minutes ago talked to a god called Elvis Presley. Then this person tells you that based on what Elvis said a book was written, and this book orders you to kill infidels, to eat a host that is his flesh and blood, to circumcise all your descendants and to please don’t forget to pay your tithes religiously.

Obviously any person in his/her senses will ask to talk to Elvis. You will involve credible professionals from many branches of knowledge to help you to design tests that unequivocally will proof that this Elvis is really the only and true god. Also you will evaluate if what this god Elvis is asking from you makes sense. TTWSYF, this is the kind of proof that will make me believe in your God and then be happy the rest of my eternity (or at least I will not suffer in hell).

And a final comment. Let me assure to you that if you cannot satisfy the kind of proof that I request, I will not run to rob, rape and kill people whenever the public authority is not around.

Farnaz:

Buddhism and science:

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/11/27/wallace/index.html

Hi Onofrio,

Thanks for your reply. I could be mistaken, but it looks to me as if students down under miss fewer days than those here. Can you tell me what Boxers Day is?

Dear Muckenfuss,

Having fasted and prayed over the matter of school holidays, I have concluded that in lieu of religious observance students should hearken unto Concierto de Arunjuez, in the beginning, as it were. Roderigo thought Paco de Lucia's was the best, interesting, since he was a flamenco guitarist, not much used to musical notation. With Concierto, Paco concerned himself more with time, rhythm, rather than with the "purity of the notes." As for it relevance to the topic, Concierto promotes muticulturalism, is good for the soul, could end war, call a halt to world hunger, etc. What do you think? If you go to Youtube, you can listen to at least the second movement as rendered by these artists (and others). WaPo won't let me post the links. :(

Paco de Luca

Jim Hall, Roland Hanna, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, et al

John Williams

Julian Bream

Miles Davis

Santana

Methinks the WaPo censor knows not what he/she/it does.

TTWSY:

Once again you fail to prove the existence of "god". That must be very frustrating for you. I find it amusing.

TTWYY,

Re: Your post to me

NO one said a liberal education dispenses with morality. Morality and religion, however, are not one and the same, as OnFaith panelists of all faiths and no faith have pointed out--not that they needed to since history attests to the difference.

One of the great problems with translated "Crime and Punishment," however, is that it makes quite a different claim, comes across as having a secular agenda much like my own. In Russian, from what I understand the religious overtones, subtle allusions shimmer forth.

Of course, I am not being astucious in the foregoing.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MUCKENFUSS
PROOF OF GOD:
POSTED BY: MUCKENFUSS | JULY 13, 2009 10:38 AM

IRT’
[Now God does exist irrespective of what anyone thinks.]

"Prove it. You can't. And don't bother quoting the so-called bible. Nothing but a stack of paper with ink."

ANS:
Telling you something is worst than tellit to a tree, At least a tree can‘t be irrational. You’ve been given the five proofs of God's existence by Aquinas, (they are written in the Catholic Encyclopedia). They are all from reason.

There is Aristotle’s proof of God from Motion, and several quick proofs are on Wikipedia. And, in a blind fog caused by your predispositions, you claim there is none. You can't see the proofs when they are right before you.

Cosequently, you said you didn’t know whether something is true or false, or what is truth. In fact, you believe no one knows what Truth is. Truth is God, hence your problem. So what good would any proof mean to you. Subsequently, you not only can’t prove or see that God exists, you can’t prove that you exist. Case closed.

That's foreboding, because some how. what God said is revealed to little children has not been revealed to you. You should be frightened because the consequence of not being able to know God is a harbinger of eternal death.

What's even more nefarious, is that you have no sense of your predicament. Many know God exists, but choose to go to Hell anyway. However, you don't even get that choice since God is meaningless to you because of your implacable disposition.

You'll get your proof alright, but you had better hope it won't be to late when it won't matter.

IN REPLY TO (IRT0
ONOFRIO
VICTOR HUGO
POSTED ON JULY 13, 2009 2:49 AM

IRT:
[Ask Javert, the nemeses of Victor Hugo’s protagonist Jean Valjean sometime]
I
“I'm not in the habit of asking fictional characters for advice. Clearly, you are. Might be part of that "terrible problem" you're having.

ANS:
That's unfortunate for you because you could have learned a valuable lesson, namely, "Man does not live on bread alone." Hence, by not relying on the values that are based on human nature but, as Javert, one relies on, the whims and vanities of a fleeting world, the world will eventually consume you.

IRT;
"Victor Hugo - a madman who thought he was Victor Hugo." (Jean Cocteau)”

ANS;
"Victor Hugo (1802-1885), novelist, poet, and dramatist, is one of the most important of French Romantic writers. Among his best-known works are The Hunchback of Notre Dame(1831) and Les Misérables (1862).

In February 1881 Hugo celebrated his 79th birthday. To honor the fact that he was entering his eightieth year, one of the greatest tributes to a living writer was held.

The celebrations began on the 25th when Hugo was presented with a Sèvres vase, the traditional gift for sovereigns. On the 27th one of the largest parades in French history was held. Marchers stretched from Avenue d'Eylau, down the Champs-Élysées, and all the way to the center of Paris.

The paraders marched for six hours to pass Hugo as he sat in the window at his house. Every inch and detail of the event was for Hugo; the official guides even wore cornflowers as an allusion to Cosette's song in Les Misérables.

Victor Hugo's death on 22 May 1885, at the age of 83, generated intense national mourning. He was not only revered as a towering figure in French literature, but also internationally acknowledged as a statesman who had helped preserve and shape the Third Republic and democracy in France.

More than two million people joined his funeral procession in Paris from the Arc de Triomphe to the Panthéon, where he was buried. He shares a crypt within the Panthéon with Alexandre Dumas and Émile Zola."

MAYBE TO YOU, BUT THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE A MAD MAN TO ME! Two million knew who he was; those who elected him, knew who he was. You know what they say about one who thinks two million people are nuts, and they're the only one who isn't, don’t you? It’s not them that’s having the problems, it’s the one who thinks they are having the problem.

IN REPLY TO (IRT0
ONOFRIO
‘TRUTH”
POSTED ON JULY 13, 2009 2:49 AM

IRT;
“You might find unfound truth more forbidding than *foreboding*, though that's just my experience.
And as I recall, the resurrection is a *tale from the crypt* par excellence. By your own standards, you ought not to rely on it.

ANS:
Truth is that which exist. All that exist is good, all the is a privation is an evil viz. a lack of good. The ultimate Truth is God and all truths come from God. Knowledge is the acquisition of Truth, the food of the intellect. If the intellect has no truth it becomes inoperative.

I don’t need to rely on the tales from the crypt, when I have Scripture and the Church, history and Revelation.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm

“Every existing thing is true, in that it is the expression of an idea which exists in the mind of God, and is, as it were, the exemplar according to which the thing has been created or fashioned. Just as human creations

To judge that things are what they are is to judge truly. Every judgment comprises certain ideas which are referred to, or denied of, reality. But it is not these ideas that are the objects of our judgment. They are merely the instruments by means of which we judge. The object about which we judge is reality itself --

Reality, therefore, is one thing, and the ideas and judgments by means of which we think about reality, another; the one objective, and the other subjective. Yet, diverse as they are, reality is somehow present to, if not present in consciousness when we think, and somehow by means of thought the nature of reality is revealed.

This being the case, the only term adequate to describe the relation that exists between thought and reality, when our judgments about the latter are true judgments, would seem to be conformity or correspondence.”

For those interested in why Christmas, Easter, Good Friday, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur should not be "holiholydays" read the following references:

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=275_The_Empty_Tomb

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

J.D Crossan and R.G. Watt's book, Who is Jesus?

Roman Catholicism is nothing but an evil, gutter "religion" made up of superstitions, myths and stories stolen from earlier religions. It offers nothing new or unique. Virgin birth? Hardly! Resurrection from the dead? The Egyptians beat them to it. The trinity? What a joke. One schizoid god with three personalities. Give me Mithras any day!

TTWSYetcetc wrote:

"Now God does exist irrespective of what anyone thinks."

Prove it. You can't. And don't bother quoting the so-called bible. Nothing but a stack of paper with ink.

IN REPLY TO (IRT0
ONOFRIO
POSTED ON JULY 13, 2009 2:49 AM

IRT;
[Yes, I am having a terrible problem. It’s due to the use of reason. and facts and not relying on the tales from the crypt, and Cartoon Network in seeking the Truth. Truth is such a foreboding thing when you don‘t have it.]

“If you are still seeking it, then presumably you don't *have* the truth either. Yet you write as if you do *have* it. One of those sublime paradoxes, I suppose...like the all-male fantasy threesome of your Trinity.”

ANS:
Your assumption is false, seeking the truth does not mean you have no truths, it only means you have not all truths or the one you are seeking.

If you ever stop seeking the truth, you’ll end up like the cynic who thinks everyone is a cretin, and yes, you will eventually become one. One never aquires all the truths or he would be God. To think and not know what is true and what is false, as some have claimed, is to be an imbecil.

As to the Trinity, either you are as smart as God, viz. Omniscoemt, or you're not. I don’t believe you are. Hence, there are things beyond the capacity to know. If you knew all things, you’d be God, but you aren’t God. And, even if you should entertain the idea that you are God, your not, so don’t try jumping off a high building thinking you can fly without a parachute.

Now God does exist irrespective of what anyone thinks. He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Prescient. He is unchangeable and therefore doesn’t exist in time. That’s another mystery man can’t comprehend, but he can know is true from reason.

Moreover, man can’t understand how things are created from nothing. In trying to understand this mystery, at times, he argues that the Universe has always existed, and has ordered itself without an intelligence.

Now that is as foolish as not believing God when he says there is a Trinity. Only the foolish are willing to believe an inanimate object the Universe that has no life gives life, that has no intelligence to design the Natural Law to govern the world creates laws, and finally inconceivably concludes the Universe is its own cause.

Instead of believing the multiple proofs of God‘s existence that are manifested in God's Creation, man‘s own conscience, and man‘s innate longing for an eternal good, the foolish are seduced into believing they are a god unto themselves. Not withstanding God’s manifestation is in all of His Creation.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
HITMAN2
"THE CYNIC AND IDEALIST"
POSTED ON | JULY 13, 2009 7:43 AM

IRT;
“To all wasting time: You sick chicks! too much to eat and nothing else to do.”

ANS:
George Bernard Shaw once wrote, “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.” Robert Anton Wilson described a cynic as one who regarded everybody as equally corrupt and he described an Idealists as one who regarded everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves.

Consequently, ever thing is equal, all things are the same.

Yes, having to think is boring for the lazy brain, who sees no evil, speaks no evil, and does no evil. In fact, he does nothing.

He has no opinions because they require him to think. He’s rumpled and grumbled and cynical because he understands that all things are the same; good is bad and bad is good.

Consequently, he understands nothing because he is a self contradiction, namely, he is no different than anyone else. Therefore, everything appears to him a waste of time, because what he does changes nothing for him. He is the perfect Buddhist.

He is likened to the frog who sits in a pot of water over a fire eating bumble bees who keep stinging him but he knows not why, until he exist no more and he is morphed into nothingness.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
FARNAZ1MANSOURI1
POSTED ON JULY 12, 2009 1:08 PM

IRS:
An okay bibliography for your perusal:
Philosophy of Liberal Education
http://www.ditext.com/libed/libed.html

The critique on a Liberal Education, from your link, is saying what was already said by Newman, an education without the consideration of the spiritual side of man is useless in the long run. As your link says, it is sophistry.

For example, Dostoevsky’s immortal novel,
"Crime and Punishment," focuses on the mental anguish and moral dilemmas of Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov, an impoverished St. Petersburg ex-student who formulates and executes a plan to kill a hated, unscrupulous pawnbroker for her money, thereby solving his financial problems and at the same time, he argues, ridding the world of an evil, worthless parasite.

Raskolnikov also strives to be an extraordinary being, similar to Napoleon, believing that murder is permissible in pursuit of a higher purpose.”

The moral of the story is, it doesn’t pay to be clever with out a moral foundation to guide you in your praxis. It will cost you in the end.

The novel, in a stark sense of tragic consequences, could be the caricature or impersonation of an abortionist, viz. the justification of murder for a good.

Raskolnikov has some sense of morality, but it’s the wrong one and a dangerous one. As does the abortionist, he convinces himself that the end justifies the means.

To all wasting time:

You sick chicks! too much to eat and nothing else to do.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
FARNAZ1MANSOURI1
POSTED ON JULY 12, 2009 1:08 PM
,
You: "its housing pedophiles"
Me: Is this meant to be a serious charge or a rhetorical move against those who make this charge against the RCC?

I believe it was from the New York Times, via an organization of which I have the link but cannot access it right now because my Windows lost its Word Program and I can’t find the Word program disc.

IRT;
You: "astucious"
Me: Do you mean "astute"?

ANS;
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Astucious

IRS:
An okay bibliography for your perusal:
Philosophy of Liberal Education
http://www.ditext.com/libed/libed.html

ANS;
“The benefit of argumentative skills is emphasized by Mearsheimer when he points out that such skills are useful to a lawyer, a doctor, a businessman, and others.

By excluding from liberal education a moral perspective, and stressing the argumentative skills, Mearsheimer understands liberal education as a practice in verbal debate for the sake of winning. And skill at argumentation, as such, without a moral perspective is sophistry and Machiavellianism.

The job of the lawyer, as of the sophist and Machiavelli, is to win. However, Mearsheimer, as I know from reading his critiques of U.S. foreign policy, is morally guided in what he advocates as a scholar. But when it comes to reflecting on the business of education he seems to be able and willing to ignore the moral perspective.”--Your link.

TTWSYF...

Thee:
"Yes, I am having a terrible problem. It’s due to the use of reason. and facts and not relying on the tales from the crypt, and Cartoon Network in seeking the Truth. Truth is such a foreboding thing when you don‘t have it."

If you are still seeking it, then presumably you don't *have* the truth either. Yet you write as if you do *have* it. One of those sublime paradoxes, I suppose...like the all-male fantasy threesome of your Trinity.

You might find unfound truth more forbidding than *foreboding*, though that's just my experience.

And as I recall, the resurrection is a *tale from the crypt* par excellence. By your own standards, you ought not to rely on it.

Thee:
"Ask Javert, the nemeses of Victor Hugo’s protagonist Jean Valjean sometime"

I'm not in the habit of asking fictional characters for advice. Clearly, you are. Might be part of that "terrible problem" you're having.

"Victor Hugo - a madman who thought he was Victor Hugo." (Jean Cocteau)

Thee:
"The truth will set you free from your flight from reality, your dishevelment, and confusion. You should try it sometime."

Try truth; get hevelled.

And what truth is that, TTWSYF? The cold, hard - yet strangely enjoyable - truth that flagellation is a great way to mortify our all-too-real flesh?

Tell us about your *Down, boy! Down!* devotional life. The TRUTH now...

Hi Farnaz,

Thee:
"How are religious holidays handled by the schools, civil service, etc., in Australia?"

Good Friday, Easter Monday, Christmas Day, and Boxing Day are all national public holidays, applicable to all institutions. Of a more secular kidney are New Year's Day and the two Mondays that comprise 'long weekends' - one in June (Queen Victoria's birthday - relic of empire) and the other in October. Add to these the secular nationalist holidays of Australia Day (26 January - landing of the 'First Fleet'; known to Koori, Murri, et al as 'Invasion Day'), and Anzac Day (25 April - commemoration of war dead). So that's nine annual public holidays, four of which are connected with Christ.

In NSW there are four terms for public schools, which private schools use also. Between the terms are school holidays in three blocs of two weeks and one bloc of six weeks over the summer (12 weeks total). For all school students Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year's Day, and Australia Day fall within the summer break. Easter usually also falls within a statutory term break.

How public schools address non-Christian holy days very much depends on student demographics. There are no strict rules about it, apart from the general requirement for students to attend school on all weekdays during term. In most cases a tolerant pragmatism prevails - allowances are made for religious observance so long as it doesn't impinge significantly on work routines.

As for the public service, days off work for religious observance have to be taken out of accrued annual leave or earned through a leave-in-lieu arrangement. That would apply to the Wiccan who wants to celebrate the Winter Solstice just as much as the Orthodox who celebrates Easter on a day different to the public holiday.

The *Christian holy days* remain *public holidays* more from cultural inertia than genuine devotion - a sort of *ain't broke don't fix it* attitude. Not unlike the English days of the week commemorating Tiw, Woden, Thunor, Frig, Saturn, Sun, and Moon despite Christianisation; or the evocation of long-dead Roman imperators in the names of July and August.

Time prefers rags to the new suit.

"The schools, civil service, etc., can make allowances for students, workers of any and all religions to absent themselves on especially sacred days, with students held responsible for making up the work they miss."

Hmmm, and that from a professed atheist???
========================
Good point. One panelist and other bloggers have suggested Darwin's Day. Okay by me. No doubt whatever holds for religiously minded geese will have to hold for indifferent ganders. (!!!)

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

No one, not even God can prophesy since that would violate the God-given/natural gifts of Free Will and Future!!!!!!

Pause, think about it, now it should all make COMMON SENSE!!! If not, try again tomorrow!!!

"The schools, civil service, etc., can make allowances for students, workers of any and all religions to absent themselves on especially sacred days, with students held responsible for making up the work they miss."

Hmmm, and that from a professed atheist???

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

No one, not even God can prophesy since that would violate the God-given/natural gifts of Free Will and Future!!!!!!

Pause, think about it, now it should all makes COMMON SENSE!!! If not, try again tomorrow!!!

Posted by: ccnl1 | July 12, 2009 3:15 PM
IN REPLY TO (IRT)
CCNL1
POSTED JULY 12 2009.

IRT;
Once again it is obvious you suffer from the Three B Syndrome i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the RCC.

ANS:
Yes, I am having a terrible problem. It’s due to the use of reason. and facts and not relying on the tales from the crypt, and Cartoon Network in seeking the Truth. Truth is such a foreboding thing when you don‘t have it. Ask Javert, the nemeses of Victor Hugo’s protagonist Jean Valjean sometime; The truth will set you free from your flight from reality, your dishevelment, and confusion. You should try it sometime.

IRT;
“And once again for your perusal:
As per the famous contemporary RCC theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

ANS;
There you go again quoting something you have no sense of its meaning. I have told you, if you want to know what the Catholic Church believes, use the Papal Encyclicals, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Don’t start quoting some dissident Catholic Theologian and try to prove something you have little or no sense.

You've messed up again, Schillebeeckx does not speak for the Church, the Pontiff does under the auspices of the Holy Spirit.

Hi Muckenfuss,

Thanks for the link, and glad you're having fun with pups and parents!

Thus far no doggie chez nous. However, neighbors who own home now have Plautus, a Wheaten terrier, who has bonded with fille. Very good for both. She walks him, plays with him, takes pictures. Happier now, she! :)

Once again, New York City public schools should eliminate all religious holidays including Winter and Spring Recess, i.e., Christmas and Easter under other names that fool no one.

Once again, Martin Luther King Day is not a religious holiday. Either it should remain or schools should devote the day to the works of King and the Civil Rights Movement. Presidents' Week should go. Washington's birthday and Lincoln's should be celebrated on the days they occur, either with school closings, or, preferably, with schools in session, the days devoted to the presidencies and legacies of these two men.

The schools, civil service, etc., can make allowances for students, workers of any and all religions to absent themselves on especially sacred days, with students held responsible for making up the work they miss.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2,

Once again it is obvious you suffer from the Three B Syndrome i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in the RCC.

And once again for your perusal:

As per the famous contemporary RCC theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx,

Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

i.e. No one, not even God can prophesy since that would violate the God-given/natural gifts of Free Will and Future.

Once again, the NYC council and Department of Education system currently are "honoring" religious myths (i.e. there was no virgin birth at Bethlehem or anywhere else, no manger, no "pretty, wingie thingies" on high, no physical/"easterly" resurrection, no "passover", no Abraham, no binding of Isaac, no Exodus and no wandering and suffering in the desert for 40/41 years).

Therefore, eliminating references to Christmas, Easter, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur brings the NYC school calendar "up-to-speed" historically. The events of Good Friday are so embellished that all one can say is that a simple preacher man named Jesus was crucified by the Romans sometime during the years 30-33 CE.

And the MLK Jr. holiday has significant religious connotations since MLK Jr. was also another Christian preacher man. Without his church, he would not have been a historical figure.

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=275_The_Empty_Tomb

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

Farnaz, methinks TTWSYetcetc protesteth entirely too much, too loudly and too long about pedophiles. The evil RCC is full of them, of course, and has ever been. He may find the competition irritating.

Farnaz wrote:

"Awhile ago, you posted a link to a site on a meditation site here in Brooklyn. I bookmarked it, but can't locate said bookmark. :("

That could only have been the Zen Center of NYC, which is a branch of the Mountains And Rivers Order, which has its monastery in upstate New York, and is the order with which I have been associated.

I recommend it highly.

http://www.mro.org/firelotus/

The pups are great, I love them. But I think it will be a while before I breed more. Quite a handful. And the weather is glorious here. Took the parents and the pups to the park for a romp yesterday. Sudden downpour, and that was fun, gathering up soggy dogs and herding them into the station wagon.

Did you get a puppy for your daughter? Scotties are probably not the best choice for homes that have small children, unless the kids respect the dog as a member of the family and behave accordingly. Can't beat them for loyalty and affection, though.

TTWSY,

You: "its housing pedophiles"

Me: Is this meant to be a serious charge or a rhetorical move against those who make this charge against the RCC?

You: "astucious"

Me: Do you mean "astute"?
==================================
An okay bibliography for your perusal:

Philosophy of Liberal Education
http://www.ditext.com/libed/libed.html

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
FAMAZ MANSOUN
POSTED ON JULY 12, 2009
“NY TEACHERS”

ANS:
Yes, some of the charges are frivolous. Still, the ridiculousness and injudicious state of the NY Public School System (PSS), its housing pedophiles, and PSS's inability to handle their discipline problems, at least with their teachers, is deplorable, notwithstanding the housing of incompetent teachers.

It is not just money; it’s how the money is being spent. Christian schools operate on a lot smaller budget and for the most part do better. Why? One is, Private Schools can discipline their students. Second, parents are more concerned.

Third PSSs are constrained in teaching moral values, and that life is sacred, that there is a Creator, and that man is destined for something other than this temporal World can ever give him, viz. eternal happiness.

John Henry Newman’s “The Educated Man" makes the astucious statement that for man to be educated he must be educated in his spiritual and material exigencies, viz. his spiritual needs as well as his material needs.

Thus, it is written, man does not live by bread alone, but by the words from the mouth of God. Man must be taught what is Good, and what is Evil. And some of these things aren't just a matter of opinion.

Consequently if man is not trained in the virtues, and doesn’t know how to love, his material gains, even if they be the whole world, will not benefit his happiness.

PSS cannot teach there is a God even thought it is the truth. Thus, the “Ten Commandments,” have been banned from PSS. They are the fundamental moral principles of all societies.

The Court said they can corrupt little minds-viz. "Thou shalt not murder, covet, steal, lie, commit adultery, and you must love your neighbor, honor your parents, and God does exist, proscrived in PSS.

Hence, instead of dealing with these moral problems, the System has exacerbated them with the amoral state. This is due the loss of control of the System to the Political Correct iconoclasts and in particularly the NEA.

Consequently, the System is more concerned with placating the vanities and whims of special interest for political expediency rather than the education of the children

Hi Muckenfuss,

What a glorious summer day it is here in NYC! HOw is it in your parts?

Awhile ago, you posted a link to a site on a meditation site here in Brooklyn. I bookmarked it, but can't locate said bookmark. :(

I hate to be a nuisance, but might you post it again?

Thanks!
Farnaz

PS. Illegitimi non carborundum!
PPS. Regards to puppies! Hope they are well!

Hi Onofrio,

How are religious holidays handled by the schools, civil service, etc., in Australia?

Drop all the religious days (Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays)
======================
Martin Luther King Day is not a religious holiday. Either it should remain or schools should devote the day to the works of King and the Civil Rights Movement. Presidents' Week should go. Washington's birthday and Lincoln's should be celebrated on the days they occur, either with school closings, or, preferably, with schools in session, the days devoted to the presidencies and legacies of these two men.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
CCNL1
“THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.”

IRT:
“Adding this to God not knowing the future, eliminates any God involvement in the foundation of Christianity.

ANS:
Where did you get this fairy tale about St. Paul, Jesus, Pilate, salt mines and company from? Was it from your fictive imagination, or Grimm’s Fairy Tales, or the Cartoon Network, or Baghdad Bob? Try reading Scripture, if you want to know what happen, and try reading the Catholic Catechism if you want to know what it means.

To the contrary, the conclusion is known; it is either up or down, Heaven, or Hell. There is no past or future with God, another of your mistakes because you know not of what you speak. God doesn’t exist in time. You might try understanding what God said to Moses. “I Am Who Am,” See if you can figure it out.

The nature of man is described by St. Thomas Aquinas and Catholicism. They describes man as a social being with an intellect and Free Will. Does that have you so disheveled and rumpled?

IRT:
“Conclusion:
Christianity and the other contemporary religions are simply the result of human evolution away from the "dark side".

ANS:
I will answer this statement because I think you don’t know what you think. Since you claim you do not know what is truth, you unwittingly admit you don't know anything. Consequently, this makes what you say meaningless, and you don't even know it.

Still, you keep making the cacophony of unsubstantiated, irrational, and incomprehensible statements as if you think they are true. However, in your self-created intellectual fog, you can't know anything unless you know truth. Truth is the food of the intellect you apparently don't believe you have.

Hence you are wrong again, it’s not evolution you're having trouble with, it’s “delusion.” Try seeking the Truth and you won’t have the problems of contradicting yourself. The Truths are hidden in the Scriptures, and the Church is there to explain them to you.

Christian holidays are celebrated because our Founding Father’s based the laws of the Constitution on the Natural Moral Laws embedded in the "Ten Commandments" given to Moses. They are inscribed on human nature and congenitally in man's conscience, by our Christian Creator. Subsequently they are defended by His Church.

Drop all the religious days (Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays)
======================
Martin Luther King Day is not a religious holiday. Either it should remain or schools should devote the day to the works of King and the Civil Rights Movement. Presidents' Week should go. Washington's birthday and Lincoln's should be celebrated on the days they occur, either with school closings, or, preferably, with schools in session, the days devoted to the presidencies and legacies of these two men.

"Keep the Winter and Spring recess periods"

Once again, Winter and Spring recess are Christmas and Easter under other names, a bad faith ruse. They fool no one and more important waste precious school time. Either we close schools, etc., to honor the especially sacred days of all religions or we close schools to honor the sacred days of none. That, in the not-so-long run will be the dilemma of New York and should be at issue for the rest of the country.

An alternative for the schools would be to set aside time for educational pursuits much neglected nowadays. (See previous posting.)

Themoderate wrote:

"You may remember that this is supposed to be an Atheist blog."

Yes, and you are an Episcopalian although your hatred does not speak well for your devotion.

On this thread, except where distracted by anti-Muslim rants, defenses of Christianity, Your Affected and your immoderate off-topic self, bloggers, very much including yours truly, have been on-topic.

Of course, you are free to check in here once a month as you warn you will, but checking in and posting are not synonymous. Check in, note that yours truly and the others to whose comments you object remain, and silently move on. Alternatively, open your mind to other viewpoints, and post comments substantive. You do no one, including yourself, any good with this nonsense.

This missive is not to be taken as an invitation for you to spew forth more vitriol or vent hysterically. Step outside. WE are living in a plural world, IMmoderate.
That is not a bad thing; in fact, it is very good.

Farnaz

Once again, recommendations for the NYC City Council and Department of Education:

Drop all the religious days (Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays) from the school calendar. Keep the Winter and Spring recess periods and add another three-day recess called "Days of Human Reflection and Responsibilities".

TTWSY and So Forth,

That the addition of the two Muslim holidays would pass the City Council was a foregone conclusion. Not only was the mayor aware of this, but all of us who live in New York knew that schools would be closed for an additional two days next year.

Here you have a Mayor who has worked long and hard to extend the school day, confronted with two more days off. If he could he would eliminate all religious holidays, as well as the newly emerged Presidents' week in February. The fact that the two additional days were for Muslim holidays is a non-issue for Bloomberg. What was and is at issue is that in religiously diverse New York, which upholds democratic principles, although we are late with gay marriage rights, we can look, down the road, to many more school closings to accommodate other religions.

This is, theoretically, a secular society committed, in theory but not in fact, to separation of church and state. Losing two full weeks to Christmas and Easter under the guise of Winter and Spring breaks, three Jewish holidays that may or may not fall out on weekdays (typically, one or two of them do), and now two Muslim holidays is not secularism. Worse unless we accommodate all especially sacred days for all religions, we see traces of establishment.

National holidays, in my view, justify school closings. None else. The civil service, etc., should follow suit.

“America, America, Nature shed its light on thee and crowned your hood with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.”

Sounds good to me!!!!

TWSY and so Forth,

As you see from the article you provide a link to, many of the infractions of which these teachers are accused are quite trivial. Further, although I've never taught K12, I do not that it is not infrequent that teachers are suspended because they object to practices that are indefensible. In one school I know of, a teacher was suspended for having spoken out against the practice (illegal) of assigning others who protested certain school policies to special ed classes.

That said, the problem of our schools lies elsewhere. They are grossly under-funded. In some, students are given xeroxes instead of books. The condition of US schools, nationwide, concerns about the level of student preparation for college, how students are undermined would be interesting topics, but probably not appropriate for OnFaith.

In the interim, the excess of holidays, not the addition of two more, is of concern. I'd like to see some time given over to enrichment programs, rather than serial vacations. All those days off could be used to engage students in science experiments, dance, acting, poetry writing, music, art, etc.

IN REPLY TO “IRT”
PERSIFLAGE
"CHURCH AND STATE"

ANS:
Abraham Lincoln made it clear as to the importance and recognition of God and that Christianity and God are an integral part of our Heritage, Civics, our History and our Traditions. Not the Muslim faith or any other faith sustains our heritage; only Christianity does this in the Declaration and Bill of Rights.

Consequently Lincoln speaks about this Heritage regarding the framers of the Declaration of Independence, and their applicaton to all men:

“These communities, by their representatives in old Independence Hall, said to the whole world of men: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This was their majestic interpretation of the economy of the Universe. This was their lofty, and wise, and noble understanding of the justice of the Creator to His creatures. [Applause.]

Yes, gentlemen, to all His creatures, to the whole great family of man. In their enlightened belief, nothing stamped with the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, and degraded, and imbruted by its fellows.

They grasped not only the whole race of man then living, but they reached forward and seized upon the farthest posterity. They erected a beacon to guide their children and their children's children, and the countless myriads who should inhabit the earth in other ages.

Wise statesmen as they were, they knew the tendency of prosperity to breed tyrants, and so they established these great SELF EVIDENT TRUTHS, that when in the distant future some man, some faction, some interest, should set up the doctrine that none but rich men, or none but white men, were entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Be it that their posterity might look up again to the Declaration of Independence and take courage to renew the battle which their fathers began -- so that truth, and justice, and mercy, and all the humane and Christian virtues might not be extinguished from the land; so that no man would hereafter dare to limit and circumscribe the great principles on which the temple of liberty was being built. Speech at Lewistown, Illinois, on August 17, 1858 (CWAL II:546)"

Lest we forget, Christian holidays, not Muslim holidays or those of any other religion, remind us what America stands for, why our greatness exists. “America, America, God shed his light on thee and crowned your hood with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.” If we celebrate Washington and Lincoln, then we should celebrate the God whom they relied on lest we forget who we are and why we are.

HOLIDAYS AND THE NEW YORK SCHOOL SYSTEM:

I think the NY City Council, instead of worrying about holidays, (as if they don't have enough) might start worrying about the five percent of pedophiles they harbor and shift around to different schools.

Did not the Liberal left-wing public go berserk over some 0.25 percent of all Catholic priest over the last 30 years who were pedophile priest? The 0.25 percent have been dealt with, and homosexuals are no longer admitted to the priesthood.

Moreover, since NY is countenancing near bankruptcy, they might try firing some 700 teachers who don't teach, or deal with them. They are sitting around doing nothing and drawing full salery and vacations from doing nothing, to the tune of some $65 million.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_us/us_rubber_rooms

"Because their union contract makes it extremely difficult to fire them, the teachers have been banished by the school system to its "rubber rooms" — off-campus office space where they wait months, even years, for their disciplinary hearings.

The 700 or so teachers can practice yoga, work on their novels, paint portraits of their colleagues — pretty much anything but school work. They have summer vacation just like their classroom colleagues and enjoy weekends and holidays through the school year.

"You just basically sit there for eight hours," said Orlando Ramos, who spent seven months in a rubber room, officially known as a temporary reassignment center, in 2004-05. "I saw several near-fights. `This is my seat.' `I've been sitting here for six months.'

Because the teachers collect their full salaries of $70,000 or more, the city Department of Education estimates the practice costs the taxpayers $65 million a year."

Themoderate wrote:

"You may remember that this is supposed to be an Atheist blog."

You are, as is your wont, mistaken.

You make an infantile assumption that it is the fault of others that you were unable to perpetuate interest in your previous discussions. Face it. Farnaz is just more interesting than you are. Nobody drove you away, or said you couldn't have your discussions. That was your decision.

The Moderate,

Thee:
"I have to say that history shows you have nothing to contribute by way of improvements."

Of course. I accept history's verdict. But you're supposed to be better than that, Moderate.

Why demean yourself any further? Or do you actually enjoy getting down and dirty with such scum as me?

Come on, Moderate, admit it. You can't resist...

Part one.

To anyone who might have been upset about my criticisms of atheism last week, I can demonstrate that those criticisms were not done out of malice but out of my simple interest to understand atheism. I can prove it because I can demonstrate that the atheistic world is not necessarily without meaning and hope--in fact I can demonstrate great meaning and hope. Rejoice atheists.

Does man have free will or not? (An exercise on free will and determinism and the relationship of such to atheism and religion).

Does man have free will or not? Supposing God exists (omnipotence, omniscience) we can say that man is poised in existence with a measure of free will--poised because although he is not as subject to being as determined as the animals,--in fact man is the freest animal we know of--he is obviously not with the power of God. And being poised in existence man can choose between good and evil, and the more he chooses the good the more he is liberated into the arms of God, where he shares in the ultimate free will of God.

But if he chooses evil, obviously he finds that the reward of his evil is ultimately hell,--a state in which his human consciousness is preserved but thwarted on all sides, made to feel the most painful futility, the knowledge driven home that one is completely subject to determinism, no hope at all. Now if God does not exist--or perhaps even if man simply chooses not to believe in God--the result is that for all free will of man, eventually man is subject to determinism, because there is no final, ultimate free will that can be achieved--no God.

Part two.

But does this mean a futile existence for man? Does the fact that man is ultimately subject to being determined, fated if you will, mean he should just stop now and not go on, give up searching for meaning in the universe? Not on your life. On the contrary--in fact man without God is still poised in existence: Man without God might not have God as the ultimate possibility, but he still is as above the animals in the sense of having a freer will as he was in a world with God. What this means is that although man ultimately is subject to determinism he has an almost unlimited possibility of growth--he can increase free will to the point just short of God.

To put it even clearer, with or without God man is in a relativistic relationship to the creatures around him with respect to freedom--he is freer than all the other creatures and they are in stages of freedom with relationship to themselves and man. This means that man potentially can be even freer--much freer--for relativity of freedom has no limits other than that one cannot be nothing or God (man for all possibility of disintegration cannot be totally nothing, the matter of which he is composed just goes into the composition of other things. And as for man not being able to become God, that should be self explanatory).

In other words, although man by his choices in a world without God will not be liberated into the arms of God, and share in his free will, man potentially can become a stupendous being just short of God, can become superhuman way beyond his current--and probably far into the future--imagination. Man in a world without God is a creature which can make himself almost God--provided he does not let his eventual failure to become God get him down, discourage him. No, man must do what many wise men have said life is: A journey.

In other words, there is no possibility of being with God, we are ultimately determined, fated--but we have before us the journey to almost becoming God, a journey toward the superhuman, the possibility of being almost everywhere in the universe and with almost perfect knowledge. Perfection is impossible, but the universe before us and without God is far from imperfection. We can know what perfection there is in the universe,--we can know all of it. And know the difference, know the imperfection that remains. Let no man now or in millenia to come dare state he knows perfection from imperfection.

We always will be trying to be perfect. And perhaps we will never know our imperfection--or know it only after a near infinite and eternal journey. I am one with the wise men: Life is a journey.

"Moderate, it's clear that you have no interest in raising the level of discourse above the *pissant* debasement you lament."

I have to say that history shows you have nothing to contribute by way of improvements.

The Moderate,

Thee:
"You know Muckenfuss, your intellectual discourse is at the level of a howler monkey."

Moderate, it's clear that you have no interest in raising the level of discourse above the *pissant* debasement you lament. You just want to slum it with the rest of us ignorami and sling around some muck.

You've found your level.

TheModerate wrote:

"You know Muckenfuss, your intellectual discourse is at the level of a howler monkey."

You have expertise in intellectual discourse with howler monkeys? That would explain a lot...

The official school calendar for the NYC school system is posted at:

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/1FD604BD-C000-4A4B-A1A6-44B57C387CED/38696/20082009SchoolYearCalendarAdditionalInformationrev.pdf

The following religious holidays are noted on said calendar:

"Winter Recess (including Christmas and New Year's Day)

Spring Recess (including Good Friday, Easter and Passover)"

"Rosh Hashanah
Yom Kippur
MLK Jr."

Recommendations for the NYC school system:
Drop all the religious names. Make Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays, "Days of Reflection" or drop them altogether and replace them with a "generic" three-day period of "Days of Human Reflection and Responsibilities".

Hello Moderate,

Still obsessing about me? Carry on, then. Since it appears you have nothing else to do, I don't mind.

Counterww wrote:
"CCNL;

Your constant drivel on how things are- when it comes to religion, especially Christianity- are just bullcrap."

Or, as older physiologists would have said, "It is the principle of the smallest possible force yielding the greatest possible stupidity."

Reductio ad absurdum.

CCNL;

Your constant drivel on how things are- when it comes to religion, especially Christianity- are just bullcrap.

You post the same stuff over and over again, like you its fact- did it ever occur to you that God revealed to Paul what to write down- and that it is a direct message to you of how the disdained by you- "atonement theology"works?

That Jesus really did come to die and conquer sin and sickness and death and that you have just rejected it out of hand?

Man your posts are just the same stuff over and over... do you have a life outside this place?

Themoderate wrote:
"Just stopped by to see what is going on..."

And as usual, you bothered to contribute nothing. Your postings, as always, have the happy faculty whose nature it is to put the senses to sleep.

You will notice that Farnaz's posts are not unanswered, nor does she argue alone. Her posts are quite stimulating.

Is it possible that you feel threatened?

YourInfectedUncle wrote:

""open minded liberals" here who cannot deal with noir satire, and probably don't even get the literary allusion in any case."

Screwtape? You must be joking. Not even close. Lewis must be choking with laughter. But thanks for clearing that up...I had assumed that "Your Affectionate Uncle" referenced the way Adolph Hitler closed his letters to his suicidal niece, Geli.

YourInfectedUncle wrote:

"Perhaps you can fly by flapping your arms, if you think you can... You are well on your way."

Ha! Adventavit asinus!

No reality is without the potential for harm, even unto death. Sober up.

You sound like a frustrated old queen who can no longer make "social" conquests in the local gay bar.

Faux demons once removed. Phoebus fizzled. Tout est perdu.

Ah me. Censored by WAPO again. P'raps some sensitive soul took offense that I wrote of God's rot.

Still lapping up the scraps, me, doggedly.

And it would seem that it's against WAPO policy for one poster to mention drinking to another's health. Probably offended some wagon-bound alcoholic (we are dealing with journalists, after all).

Meanwhile, faux devils and eternally peeved Opus Deist flagellants laugh it up...

Your Affected,

Thou art much given to putting on airs, tho' thou seemest a bit piqued this hour.

Thou art no prophet, and, thus far, thine is no great matter.

Step out into the light. What say?

NonWormwood

Drunk blogging again?

Yes... Fine Muckenfus.

"Possibly truth and reality are one and the same. Which, of course, means that we make our own truths, just as we make our own realities, and for the same purposes."

Yes... The postmodern Liturgy. We make our own reality. We make our own truth. Perhaps you can fly by flapping your arms, if you think you can... You are well on your way.

Monsignor Affected,

Must be off. Try imitating an epistolary other, for a change. What say?

NonWormwood

Your Affected,

Reading list is also required for would-be wannabe's, would-be's, wannabe's, never weres, won't be's, might be's, could be's if tried be's.

Your Affectionate Uncle,

Sorry, but your "noir" is B movie kitch, and you're offensiveness is hardly by design. Desolee.

Again, O thou would be belletristic bringer of darkness, suggest you get out more, and take a stroll. Jews haven't cringed for quite awhile now.

Required reading for wannabe would-be's:

Gavin Langmuir. Toward a Definition of Antisemitism

--------------. History, Religion, and Antisemitsm

Rosemary Ruether. Faith and Fratricide

Edward Said. Culture and Imperialism

Levinas. Everything

Hyam Macoby. Ditto
===============
Massa, we been done wid da plantation. Seeya.

And yes Apollo The Far Shooter does exist. He reached Selene on his last appearance. Some might hope he comes this way again.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

"I would like to know why short postings by Onofrio and yours truly, postings that were relevant, unoffensive have been deleted. WHY IS THAT? And why was my last posting which questioned this occurrence deleted? Please explain."

Your Affectionate Uncle being a literary allusion in a certain vein must, perforce, be offensive by His very nature. Surely He accepts it as an accolade to have His diabolically civil commentaries censored by the "open minded liberals" here who cannot deal with noir satire, and probably don't even get the literary allusion in any case.

But can it really be that you don't understand that you are as accidentally offensive to others as Your Affectionate Uncle is by design? My goodness gracious. Our Father Below must be mirthful about that one.

Apollo exists since I cannot disprove him. See especially Homer's Hymn to Apollo No. 3 for inspiration. Use google, or see Susan's last thread on which I posted it.

I would like to know why short postings by Onofrio and yours truly, postings that were relevant, unoffensive have been deleted. WHY IS THAT? And why was my last posting which questioned this occurrence deleted? Please explain.

Thank you.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
LAURELYVES
CHRISTMAS & EASTER;
POSTED ON July 10, 2009 1:40 PM

ANS:
Not everyone celebrates Good Friday, but many do, and this celebration though not celebrated by many still has an eminent and substantial presence of marked importance in Art, Theatre, Television, and Movies because it is a presence in out traditions, as is Lent, and Easter.

Andres Serrano’s The “Pissedchrist“ is a relevant example of the sensitivity of Americans as to the Easter and Christ’s Passion. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art's "Awards in the Visual Arts" competition, which is sponsored in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, a United States Government agency that offers support and funding for artistic projects.

“The Easter bunny was introduced to American folklore by the German settlers who arrived in the Pennsylvania Dutch country during the 1700s. The arrival of the "Oschter Haws" was considered "childhood's greatest pleasure" next to a visit from Christ-Kindel on Christmas Eve.

German Protestants wanted to retain the Catholic custom of eating colored eggs for Easter, but did not want to introduce their children to the Catholic rite of fasting. Eggs were forbidden to Catholics during the fast of Lent, which was the reason for the abundance of eggs at Easter time.”

Of course Public Schools cannot even mention Easter or any religious holidays with out repercussions of the ACLU, who would be out of business if Christianity were a dominant American force. The ACLU is even threatened by a moment of silence in the class room, and Abstinence programs in Public Schools drive the ACLU up the wall. They seduced the Court to conclude that the “Ten Commandments” would corrupt little children’s minds.

Unfortunately for Americans, banning the Commandments from Public Schools has coincidently marked a rise in crime, and juvenile suicide. Suicide now ranks as the third largest cause of deaths in young Americans, and is now eighth in respect to adults.

"It is long past time that Muslims assimilate into this coutry. If their holidays were recognized, it would just be one more reason for them to refuse to adopt the Western tradition."

So assmililation means religious conversion? Why not go further and incorporate Lord's Prayer into the oath of citizenship? Yeesh.

Although Christianity has had a huge influence on Western culture, it's far from the only influence. It's a huge mistake to treat Christianity and Western culture as though they were the same thing. Among other reasons, it disenfranchises Christians in places like Lebanon and Ethiopia.

God is a term for an existence imagined by man in terms of his own personality and irreducible to any tenable definition. The onus of proof as to any God lies with the theist, who can give none. Christers are primitive in their religious beliefs, as even the most elementary analysis discloses. Their beliefs do not match up to or relate to human nature as we all experience it. Then attempt to wiggle out of their own religious inconsistencies, when their own human natures turn out so different from and contrary to what they had been led to believe, and what they say they do believe, the superstitious, hypocritical, lie-ridden, greed-driven, power-corrupted Roman Catholic Church notwithstanding.

TTWSY sez 1+1=2, and therefore absolute truth follows a similar reasoning process.

Personally, I see the strange illogic of theology in this formula, if one insists that 1+1 = God. In the year 2009, things have changed.....

True believers deprive their theological arguments of power, if this simple-minded logic is the nature of their faith-based rationalization.

The nature of proof has changed in 2000 years.......even though many beliefs have not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

TTWSY sez 1+1=2, and therefore absolute truth follows a similar reasoning process.

Personally, I see the strange illogic of theology in this formula, if one insists that 1+1 = God. In the year 2009, things have changed.....

True believers deprive their theological arguments of power, if this simple-minded logic is the nature of their faith-based rationalization.

The nature of proof has changed in 2000 years.......even though many beliefs have not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Muslim holidays should not be accomodated. It is long past time that Muslims assimilate into this coutry. If their holidays were recognized, it would just be one more reason for them to refuse to adopt the Western tradition.

TTWYSetcetc wrote:

a lot of drivel.

You have not come close to proving the existence of god. Quoting the bible to prove the existence of god is like quoting "The Night Before Christmas" to prove the existence of Santa Clause.

Reality? Whose? NOTHING can be known, idiotboy. You can only THINK you know.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MUCKENFUSS
POSTED ON JULY 10 2009

IRT:
“What is Truth?
Possibly truth and reality are one and the same. Which, of course, means that we make our own truths, just as we make our own realities, and for the same purposes.”

ANS:
Ever wonder why you’re so confused and discombobulated all the time? If you don’t know what is truth, how can you know anything. Every thing you say, according to you, may or may not be true. Consequently, it meaningless.

Here's a hint, truth is reality, that which exists. It doesn't depend on whether you know it or not. Thus, 1+1=2 whether you know it or not.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MUCKENFUSS
POSTED ON JULY 10 2009 2:20PM

IRT:
[In “Lawrence v. Texas,” the Court elevated “gay-sex” to the dignity of “conjugal love” and claimed traditional morality served no legitimate purpose to the State and was not a just basis for Civil Law.]

“And they were absolutely correct. "Traditional morality" is a red-herring of which christers are so fond. Since god does not exist, "traditional morality" is a moot issue.”

Prove it. First, I don’t believe you know what traditional morality is. Try explaining it. Second, I have shown you proof there is a God. Prove that there isn’t. All you can do is say things you cant’ back up, viz. blow hot air. Hot air is only good for blowing up baloons, and inflating egos.

YourAffectionateUncle wrote:

"Judge of all tell us this: What is Truth?"

Possibly truth and reality are one and the same. Which, of course, means that we make our own truths, just as we make our own realities, and for the same purposes.

TTWSYetcetc wrote:

"In “Lawrence v. Texas,” the Court elevated “gay-sex” to the dignity of “conjugal love” and claimed traditional morality served no legitimate purpose to the State and was not a just basis for Civil Law."

And they were absolutely correct. "Traditional morality" is a red-herring of which christers are so fond. Since god does not exist, "traditional morality" is a moot issue.

Where I live in California, "Spring break" in the public schools is often but not always the week just before or just after Easter. Some school districts, however, schedule their Spring breaks to coincide with the ski season in the Sierras. In the years when Easter falls after mid-April, Spring break truly has no religious connection. And there's very little consistency from one school district to another. There has been little complaint, if any, that I've heard that the schools aren't recognizing Easter. (Then again, California isn't the Bible belt.)

Christmas would be a bit more difficult, since many non-religious people celebrate Christmas in a secular way. The "Winter break" also generally encompasses New Year's Day which is not religious.

Perhaps school holidays should reflect officially recognized holidays of the community at large, i.e., the days the banks and/or government offices are closed, while also allowing students to have a certain number of excused days for religious observances, while making up any work missed.

By the way, Susan makes a good point about the difficulty of finding childcare for all these extra days off.

"While we may not have had such need for a decidedly secular position 100 years ago, that's exactly where our society is today. Separation of church and state should be evident at all public levels of society, including the educational millieu."

The root of the secular position is the principle that religious belief should be an individual matter, not a societal matter. Too many societies past and present have wrongly treated belief as an individual's responsibility toward society. Such treatment is inherently hostile to freedom of conscience.

The short answer is absolutely not.....singling out and recognizing yet another (theistic) religion for preferential treatment via the public venue of education is a major step backward.

Anything that legislatively or otherwise officially promotes cultural separatism based on religion identity and/or religious heritage should be anathema to any secular democracy. This includes the excessively overdone Christian-inspired holidays as well.

Maybe we need a national contest for secular substitutes - Thanksgiving is a semi-reasonable example (especially if we ignore what the Pilgrims and the Puritans did to the Native Americans - and to each other).

Clearly all designated down-time away from public schools, ranging from elemenatary to university levels, should be officially described as Fall Break, Winter Break, Summer Break or by some such generic description, without attributing any sort of special religious intent or linkage.

Such breaks in the round of public education should be all-inclusive and secular in nature. It pays lip service to traditional educational downtime without singling out a particular religious faith. A win-win situation for all.

While we may not have had such need for a decidedly secular position 100 years ago, that's exactly where our society is today. Separation of church and state should be evident at all public levels of society, including the educational millieu. Exceptions are and always have been the purview of private schools.

Cultural heterogeneity and homogeneity have to live side by side under the law and in the public square, in any self-declared secular, democratic republic - and this goes well beyond the majority vs minority equation.

Separation of church and state, implemented in every public venue, is the most ultimately fair principle with which to do this, for the good of all. Let's by all means apply it here.

While many religiously zealous folk hate to be limited in their public freedom of expression by way of indiscriminate boundry-crossing, the non-religious equally dislike being burdened by religiously/theistically informed views that may wend their way into the laws of the land - inadvertantly or otherwise.

Keep religion out of public education.....

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 :

You make some good points however the name Christianity in all fairness needs to be changed to honor all the founders/"necessary accessories".

To wit:

Paul of Taurus was first of the "necessary accessories". He recognized early on the great wealth of Roman and Greek Gentiles so he wrote his epistles raising Jesus and his embellished life from the dead and the Gentiles "ate it up". His promise of the imminent second coming was shear brilliance in gathering much silver and gold (the prime necessary accessory). The Romans got jealous ending the life of the first necessay accessory.

Pilate, although not the founder of Christianity, was another "necessary accessory i.e. he could have easily sent Jesus to the salt mines.

Constantine and his swords finished the "necessary accessory" scenario.

Adding this to God not knowing the future, eliminates any God involvement in the foundation of Christianity.

Conclusion:

Christianity and the other contemporary religions are simply the result of human evolution away from the "dark side".

ANS:
That last I heard was that History and Civics were part of our Education process.

I believe we still have a semblance of what is still called a Constitution, if the Court, the ACLU, and the Democrats haven’t destroyed it yet. Moreover, we have a Judeo-Christian heritage that the Founding Fathers relied on to write it.

We also have a heritage that apparently the Court and the heathens, personified by the ACLU, People for the American Way, NOW, NAMBLA, and NARAL, seem to have forgotten.

We have a "Pledge of Allegiance" that points out we are “one nation under God," to the bane of the philistine and barbarian Socialist. We are a nation whose currency says, much to the disgust of the troglodytes, “In God We Trust.”

It might just be time that we start teaching our Public School Students that there is a God, after the Court, in a conspiracy with the ACLU, decided babies aren’t human any more.

In accordance, we subsequently murdered over 50 million unborn and have launched an assault on the personhood of the embryo. Further, we decided that Marriage no longer exists in its natural form, and God doesn’t define human nature or Marriage; man does.

We have exalted a pervert by reelecting him to office after he lied to the American people on National TV, perjured himself in a Federal Court, sold his country out to the Chinese, and disgraced his sacred Oath of Office and the Oval Office. As a consummate prevaricator and womanizer he molested women and was accused of rape by his victim.

Respectively, we have elected another president who implausibly said the attitude of those who hold the old worn out idea of traditional Marriage are reasons certain laws must be changed. Therefore, he will subsidize illicit gay-sex unions after he destroys the military by repealing the “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” policy.

“There are unjust laws to overturn and unfair practices to stop...there are still fellow citizens...who still hold fast to worn arguments and old attitudes; who fail to see your families like their families; and who would deny you the rights that most Americans take for granted.”--Pres. Obama July I, 2009 WH. I might add that no American has any natural right to marry the same sex.

Thus, as the Court redefined the nature of man in “Roe v. Wade," Obama redefines Marriage. Hence, the "conceived" is no longer human. A mother is no longer with child but a “thing.”

In “Lawrence v. Texas,” the Court elevated “gay-sex” to the dignity of “conjugal love” and claimed traditional morality served no legitimate purpose to the State and was not a just basis for Civil Law.

"the truth is not bigotry"

Judge of all tell us this: What is Truth?

colinnicholas,

"Maybe that's what we should discuss every 9/11, the danger of religion in a rational world."

And on what day shall we discuss the dangers of reason?

colinnicholas,

You noted:

"Maybe that's what we should discuss every 9/11, the danger of religion in a rational world."

Yes, indeed!!!

ColinNick,

On 9/11, virtually all public schools, many private schools, and most colleges in New York do have a day of reflection. At my own institution, we sponsor events, workshops, talks on promoting cross cultural understanding, etc. Some of it is "feel good" stuff, but that does facilitate a sense of unity in diversity, not a bad thing, IMO. Other talks, panel discussions address the much harder questions.

From Muckenfuss's link on the Sherbini murder in Germany

"The general secretaries of both the CENTRAL COUNCIL OF JEWS (emphasis mine) and the Central Council of Muslims, Stephen Kramer and Aiman Mazyek, who on Monday made a joint visit to the bedside of Sherbini's husband, spoke of the "inexplicably sparse" reactions from both media and politicians.

They said that although there was no question that the attack was racially motivated, the debate in Germany had concentrated more on the issue of the lack of courtroom security. "I think the facts speak for themselves," Kramer said."

CCNL;

You write;

"Instead of the Muslim "holidays", the NYC school system should institute a day of reflection for all students and teachers every 9/11. At this time, the flaws and errors of Islam that caused this major horror/atrocity would be reviewed"

me.

I'm almost with you on this one C.C. except singling out Islam might send the message that other religions are not flawed. In reality they're all equally irrational if not equally dangerous.
I'm talking about the superstitious ones that posit a sky god.
9/11 is a testament to the power of religious indoctrination, and demonstrates how dangerous it is to encourage people to believe in magic, at the expense of common sense.
Maybe that's what we should discuss every 9/11, the danger of religion in a rational world.

Part one.

Should schools celebrate Muslim holidays? Should schools in general close to accommodate themselves to religions?

It seems almost everyone understands this problem, can articulate the conflict. The conflict is this: The United States has freedom of religion--allows virtually any religion to worship,--in fact does not mind schisms or the creation of new religions--provided the extremes of religion are not encouraged. And if each religion were to demand to be recognized by school closings, of course the days of schooling would be shrunk, the days of school would be virtually numbered. But if we were to keep schools open regardless of special days to religions slowly but surely the message would be sent that for all freedom of religion in the United States the U.S. does not educate for any religion let alone a particular one.

This particular conflict has not come to the fore during the past two hundred or so years of U.S. history because (probably, I might be wrong) religious diversity did not exist except in the form of schisms within Christianity and the creation of new religions which are based on Christianity or Western pagan traditions which are satisfied with celebrating on halloween and/or Christmas or days which do not necessarily have to be accompanied by school closings.

But as religious diversity increases in the U.S.--as the U.S. literally embraces the huddled masses from here, there and everywhere--of course stress will be placed on schools, of course holidays will be demanded for this and that religion. In fact the country will be stressed in many other areas as well (everyone taking off for work every other day?).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/07/german-trial-hijab-murder-egypt

Part two.

So the battle lines are shaping: the conflict between allowing freedom of religion in the United States--and allowing religions to affect schooling, etc.--and virtually abolishing religion, not allowing it to affect important institutions in the U.S. which are not religious--and of course if religion is not allowed to affect institutions not religious it becomes constricted, private and eventually fades to simply believing in one's heart that there must be ultimate goodness behind existence or something. In other words, one's religious beliefs become more abstract and simplified--an essence is distilled which most everyone can agree with.--An almost grain alcohol distillation with everyone agreeing there must be an ultimate meaning behind existence, again, an ultimate good. Religion distilled to a simple, clear and profound conversation.

But of course another course can be taken: the U.S. can continue saying it celebrates freedom of religion but really celebrates only certain religious holidays. In other words the U.S. can try to preserve the days when only a few religions were allowed to influence a wide variety of U.S. institutions. But of course in trying to preserve those days we all become aware of the hypocrisy of the U.S. saying it celebrates freedom of religion.

So...probably what will occur is that as the U.S. grows more and more diverse and more religions are thrust to the fore a movement will be born--or rather become more articulated than ever before--to reduce religion to mere essentials and keep it from unduly influencing institutions not religious. But for the latter to occur the U.S. must somehow become a nation in which arriving masses are willing to shrug off much of their cultural baggage--bring good food and music and meditation and maybe fast days (I personally believe every American should celebrate Ramadan if only to keep from stuffing his face for at least a part of the year. In fact it must be stressed that being slightly hungry rather than satiated is good for the body and mind, that all one's senses, hearing, taste, smell, sight are increased, made more acute, because the body is being thrust into "hunter mode"...In other words, fast days to increase keenness of body and mind) but toss out all the...well, we all know what.

That is the dilemma. I am confident the U.S. will solve the problem. I just finished reading a bit of the history of the U.S. circa 1800-17 by the famous American historian Henry Adams, and I am astonished how far we have come and how quickly. From few crummy and nearly impassable roads to the Yankee clipper which gave the Brits so much trouble in the war of 1812 to the airplane, rocket to the moon and internet. We Americans are problem solvers. We will solve this problem.

Is a taxpayer who feels his religious holidays are under attack more likely or less likely to vote for the next bond election or teacher pay increase?

Piss off the almighty taxpayer and watch the schools pay the price for your hard line, Susan.

Usama writes:

I first want to say that I love God and love the Prophet Muhammad more than love my own life, as do millions of Muslims.

Mayor Bloomberg shows a level of bigotry and prejudice that could only be palatable in New York City.

As I Muslim, I do NOT believe nonMuslims should be mandated to 'celebrate' Muslim holidays. The appropriate policy should be a set number of holiday days for each student.
======================
I would imagine you don't live in New York because if you did, you'd know that Mayor Bloomberg is not a bigot, and, in fact, has the support of a majority of Muslim voters. (I, personally, am not a Bloomberg fan, but for other reasons.) That said, I admit his statement wasn't as tactful as it might have been, but characteristically, he does look down the long road. Here you have a mayor who has fought to lengthen the school day being confronted with yet two more religious holidays. Given the enormous religious diversity of the city, no doubt, he was envisioning a month off for religious observance.

If Mayor Bloomberg could get rid of Christmas and Easter weeks, the three Jewish holidays, which may or may not fall on weekdays (generally, one or two of them do), he surely would do so, and so would I.

Our biggest problem right now concerning time off are two full weeks off for Christmas and Easter, with a third week that has emerged, "Presidents Week" in February. This last is surely the most disruptive. Given the attention span of students, we, and I teach in a college, struggle every day to keep them focused, and that week off in February costs us.

I do not see the need for schools to close for periods of religious observance, and I do not believe that students or anyone else needs a week to commemorate Washington and Lincoln's births. I also feel that what goes for Christians and Jews must go for everyone else, not only Muslims. This introduces the interesting problem of the Orthodox Christians, who do not celebrate Easter and Christmas when the Protestants and Roman Catholics do. There are also other religious groups that have the right to claim holidays.

IMHO, we've got to adapt to the realities here on the ground, as it were.
The schools are still a disaster in the five boroughs, and higher education is not what it was twenty or even ten years ago, and it was fading fast then. What we need for our students is a decent educational system, not holidays.

Therefore, I have always liked the idea of permitting students to take off days, without penalty, for religious observances. I have done this with my religious Muslim and Jewish students, and it has worked out fine.

Instead of the Muslim "holidays", the NYC school system should institute a day of reflection for all students and teachers every 9/11. At this time, the flaws and errors of Islam that caused this major horror/atrocity would be reviewed. And there should also be 3000 seconds of silence in memory of the 3000 global citizens that died that tragic day!!!

Representatives of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) met today with officials of the German embassy in Washington, D.C., to discuss a recent incident in which a pregnant Muslim woman was stabbed to death at a Dresden court while testifying against a man who had insulted her for wearing a religiously-mandated headscarf, or hijab.

The woman was stabbed 18 times as court security personnel allegedly failed to intervene. When the woman’s husband attempted to shield her from the attacker, he was shot by those same security personnel and remains in critical condition.

*************************************************
In response to ABHAB's diatribe against Muslims, a reader once asked ABHAB, what do you want to do to them (Muslims)?

The above account of what happened to a Muslim woman in Germany tells it all. The Islamophobes on this thread would be happy if similar things happened to Muslims in America.

These hate mongers should be monitored by law enforcement.

A mosque was burned down in California recently and the Imam (priest) was killed there. The FBI is investigating the hate crime.

I first want to say that I love God and love the Prophet Muhammad more than love my own life, as do millions of Muslims.

Mayor Bloomberg shows a level of bigotry and prejudice that could only be palatable in New York City.

As I Muslim, I do NOT believe nonMuslims should be mandated to 'celebrate' Muslim holidays. The appropriate policy should be a set number of holiday days for each student.

Three days 'annual leave' - over and above statutory term breaks - for every student in a government school. Other than during exam periods, this 'free' time could be deployed as the student and their family see fit. This would allow the religious to observe any holy days that fall within school term.

Actually, I advocate a 12-month school year. It would be an easy matter to have a 2-week break in the winter, during which everyone has an equal amount of time off to celebrate whatever he wants to celebrate, or just rest from the educational grind. A second break, in say early June, of two weeks would be another opportunity to rest/celebrate as one sees fit.

History classes in all New York public schools should also include a contemporary review of Islamic-driven, 24/7 atrocities.

To wit: Mohammed's embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues today as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feuds and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Muslim children in the New York public schools should first be allowed to partake in the Five Point Program Addressing the Reality of Islam:

The Program:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Abraham, Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Re: Previous Post--That should have been Roger WilliamS, of course.

A Letter to the Town of Providence (Jan. 1655)

That I should ever speak or write a tittle that tends to such an infinite liberty of conscience is a mistake, which I have ever disclaimed and abhorred. To prevent such mistakes, I shall at present only propose this case: There goes many a ship to sea, with many hundred souls in one ship, whose weal and woe is common, and is a true picture of a commonwealth or a human combination or society. It hath fallen out sometimes that Papists, Protestants, Jews, and Turks may be embarked in one ship; upon which supposal I affirm that all the liberty of conscience that ever I pleaded for turns upon these two hinges: that none of the Papists, Protestants, Jews, or Turks be forced to come to the ships prayers or worship, nor be compelled [restrained] from their own particular prayers or worship, if they practice any.

I further add that I never denied that, notwithstanding this liberty, the commander of this ship ought to command the ship's course, yea, and also command that justice, peace, and sobriety be kept and practiced, both among the seamen and all the passengers. If any of the seamen refuse to perform their services, or passengers to pay their freight; if any refuse to help in person or purse, toward the common charges or defense; if any refuse to obey the common laws and orders of the ship concerning their common peace or preservation; if any shall mutiny or rise up against their commanders and officers; if any should preach or write that there should be no commanders or officers because all are equal in Christ, therefore no master or officers, no laws nor orders, nor corrections nor punishments—I say I never denied that in such cases, the commander may judge, resist, compel, and punish such transgressors according to their deserts and merits. This if seriously and honestly minded may, if it so please the Father of Lights, let in some light to such as willingly shut not their eyes.

I remain studious of your common peace and liberty.

Roger William

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Posted by: ccnl1 | July 8, 2009 10:07 AM
============
"Why would anyone want to celebrate the life of a warmongering, hallucinating, womanizing and illiterate Arab????"

Posted by: ccnl1 | July 8, 2009 12:15 PM

Given the increase in diversity, I think we either have to close schools on the holidays of all religions or not close them at all. As for Christmas, there are some banks, many businesses, etc., that do remain open, and whether or not it is a "national" holiday, officially, is irrelevant. This throwing away of time needs to end. (So, too, do the street decorations and lighting, which cost money, and are not always in the best of taste.) Closing schools for two entire weeks for Christmas and Easter has to end. I should point out that the dates for these holidays are consistent only with Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Orthodox dates for these holidays are different. Equally, if not more important, Christmas is irrelevant to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, et al.

A passing note on Jewish holidays: In areas where there is a dense Jewish population, schools do close for the Jewish New Year, Passover, and Yom Kippur IF they fall on school days, and, in fact, they often do not. That is not the case with Good Friday, Easter, and Christmas, which costs students and educators two full weeks, as opposed to anywhere from two to four days, routinely, for Jewish holidays.

That said, I say, eliminate them all. This is a secular society; religious observance is part of the private domain. However, I would recommend that if some students are unable to attend classes in order to observe this or that sacred day, they should not penalized for their absence(s). Additional vacation days should be provided for all workers, who could then request vacation time during the holiest days of Rmadan, Yom Kippur, Christmas, etc.

Susan pontificates thus:

“Cal Thomas's ridiculous suggestion that if we recognize Muslim holidays here, we should ask for recognition of Christian holidays in Muslim theocracies, inadvertently demonstrates the reasons why religious holidays should not be observed by our public institutions. The United States is not a theocracy; many majority Muslim countries are.”

Some like Saudi Arabia and some Arab Emirates do not even know what a church is let alone recognize a Christian or Jewish holiday. The fact that many of these failed societies are theocracies should not excuse them from reciprocating with us. It is this so-called political correctness that Muslims rely on to Islamize America. If that happens, Allah forbids, you and the rest of us would not have the luxury to even question what will be happening to us; to our values and our civilization.

Why would anyone want to celebrate the life of a warmongering, hallucinating, womanizing and illiterate Arab????

It all depends on the makeup of the student population. It hardly makes sense to staff schools when a significant percentage of the attendees will be absent out of religious observance.

It is an economic decision.

Simply give children and teachers a number of personal days off, to take as they please, whether for long weekends with grandparents, holidays, or just mental health.

In NC, "Buck Day" closed the schools since most boys were out hunting deer with their father on the first day of deer season. Not a religious holiday, simply a recognition that many of the school would be absent, and so just give everyone the day off.

Adults get personal leave, vacation days or time off at their convenience- why not for kids?

Besides, that's what substitute teachers and standardized teaching is made for. Any accredited teacher should be able to continue the curriculum during the absence of the teacher.

If all the teachers are out, and some students want to come in to work, such as on Christmas Day, then that's what teacher supervisors and principals are for. If nothing else, they can have a study hall day with limited or no cafeteria services. Besides, it would be good to give non-teaching educators a chance to really work with real students, and not just numbers.

All or none is the sane approach. I vote "none." Give a cursory nod to Christmas and Easter and Muslim & Jewish (and other) religious holidays -- one or two days off. Then et the kids out earlier in summer.

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To wit:

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David Waters"

"But the long Christmas and Easter vacations that are customary not only in New York but in most of the country have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the desire of teachers' unions for more days off, merchants for more shopping days, and families with time and money for vacations."

That's partially true. For school systems, such vacations are partly devices of convenience, to avoid having large numbers of absences. Jacoby errs in assuming that granting such vacations amounts to recognizing the religious holidays. But from a First Amendment perspective, school systems should take a stance with vacations that is neutral between competing religions. Bloomberg's stance violates the First Amendment because he's denying Muslim holidays specifically because they're Muslim - it gives favored status to Christianity and Judaism, and doesn't fit the court standard of a secular purpose. Jacoby's idea for an all-purpose excused absence is a good one, although I would expand it to five days.

Also, what Jacoby doesn't seem to recognize is that many Americans celebrate Christmas as purely a secular winter celebration with no particular religious significance. She seems to assume that such Americans qualify as Christians in deed, or at least that she would put them in the C column for this issue.