Bishops have a right to defend the defenseless

Anthena4: You make an interesting point about providing pre-natal healtch care. Disturbingly however, prenatal screening is often used to weed out the undesireables. Since pre-natal screening for the condition became widely availabe, about 90% of babies with Downs Syndrome have been aborted. Reducing the incidence of disease by destroying all the individuals with that disease is hardly health-care. We could drastically reduce cancer rates by killing everyone with cancer but would that really improve health?

By the time a woman decides whether or not to have an abortion, the "reproductive right" has already been exercised. No one has ever had an abortion before they got pregnant.

Also, why is it so difficult for so many to distinguish between *intentional* killing and *unintentional* killing? Is there really no difference between sliding into a pedestrian from an icy roadway and purposefully driving into a crowd? Intent matters. Our legal system has always understood that. But when it comes to abortion, that seems to get thrown out the window. Why?

Coloradodog,

What a load of crap. The Catholic Church is no less an enemy of the state than is the Taliban?

Hmmm... it is telling of the fiercesomeness of the Catholic Church that people are so eager to criticize it, while so hesitant to criticize Islam. That must be because of all those Catholic priests who run around cutting off heads, or those nutty Catholics who run around shooting up army bases.

Yeah, you're real tough, Coloradodog.

Ryan Haber
Kensington, Maryland
_______________________-

Ohhgaaah Boooogaaah Ryan, are you going to do? Send pervert priests to molest me again in the middle of the night? I've also denounced Islam among the rest of the punitive, my-way-or-the-highway Abrahamic religions. You mention nothing about Bishops and Archbishops bullying American government and denying communion to Catholic politicians like Kennedy while dodging Federal Racketeering charges of obstruction of justice and sexual child exploitation.

Sounds like the same agenda as the Taliban - a complete, lawless, theocratic dictatorship run by William Donohue and Rome.

You can believe in Saints with two eyeballs on a plate in front of them for all I care, but if you think you can bully and meddle in government by cherry-picking which "morals" you want to jam down the throats of the rest of us while your clergy buggers little boys, it's time rest of the Country stood up to your bullying and demand your Church respect the Constitution and the Civil Criminal law of the US. Your Church, and apparently you, too, do not respect either.

If the Catholic Church wants to throw its weight around in political issues (legislation is part of the political process), then fine -- just give up your tax-free status.
You talk about sacrifice, and are willing to sacrifice a woman to the thing that is living INSIDE her body, ATTACHED to her body and LIVING OFF HER OWN SYSTEM (tell me how that is an individual and not a part of her body) -- then lead the way by sacrificing your tax-exempt status to enter the political fray.
Frankly, the Church's behavior in this political debate does not teach any moral lessons.

Coloradodog,

What a load of crap. The Catholic Church is no less an enemy of the state than is the Taliban?

Hmmm... it is telling of the fiercesomeness of the Catholic Church that people are so eager to criticize it, while so hesitant to criticize Islam. That must be because of all those Catholic priests who run around cutting off heads, or those nutty Catholics who run around shooting up army bases.

Yeah, you're real tough, Coloradodog.

Ryan Haber
Kensington, Maryland

The Catholic Church is a non democratic patriarchal institution deeply rooted in the subjugation of women. They hate anything that allows women control of their reproductive function. They weren't in favor of a woman's right to marry freely, to divorce a violently abusive husband, to use birth control in any form, or to participate directly in the life of the Church, except in the most subservient manner. Women are overcoming all of the foul burdens the Church has placed upon them and will continue to do so. They realize that such discrimination was never God's plan.

The exclusively male Catholic clergy continue to maintain a deceitful double life by claiming to live celibately. Priests deny that they require active sexual outlet, while most, of course, engage in active sexual lives. It is simply human nature. Priests are no more above sexuality than anybody else. This deceit has caused a disproportionate number of sexual deviates and sociopaths to enter the priesthood. Priests should begin the reform of the Church by being open with the laity about their own sexuality and how they express it during their activities of daily life rather than engaging in evil persecution of blameless women struggling to make their way through life.

Shame on you Father Tom. You do no credit to yourself or the Church. We need honesty from the clergy, not the same old timeworn platitudinous lies.

"Washington (CNN) -- Rhode Island's top Roman Catholic leader has asked Rep. Patrick Kennedy to stop taking Communion over his support for abortion rights, the diocese said Sunday."

The Catholic Church has declared war on our democracy. Let them now be subject to the laws of the government they design to control.

Federal grand jury investigations against their American Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and Priests for obstruction of justice for failing to report their pervert priests, for sexual exploitation of children and for obstruction of justice.

The Catholic Chruch in America is an enemy of the state no less than the Taliban.

It might be instructive to know something about German law. Some years ago, the Supreme court in West Germany ruled that abortion is illegal and violates the rights of the foetus (and yes, it was a court and not a bunch of priests). However, East Germany did allow abortion and after unification the two positions had to be reconciled.

Eventually the court has relented on abortion and decided that while abortion is illegal, they will tolerate the fact that the legislature does not want to punish people who have abortions in the first 12 weeks.

From the Wikipedia: "it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester, providing that the woman had submitted to state-regulated counselling designed to discourage termination and protect unborn life. Parliament passed such a law in 1995. Abortions are not covered by public health insurance except for women with low income."

In some ways, Germany is more progressive than the US. They do have universal health care and have been aggressive about promoting a Green planet. Perhaps their position on abortion, accepting that the foetus has rights, is ALSO progressive?

Perhaps American liberals, who are quite tolerant of the oceans of foetal blood (more than a million abortions a year), are not as progressive as they like to describe themselves as being.

Even though I am not a Catholic and could not possibly accept Catholic dogmas, I am grateful for the fact that they are willing to fight for morality. If you look at the opinions of the Dalai Lama, you will find that they are pretty much the same as that of the Pope on important moral issues. He also opposes abortion and finds homosexuality a little "odd".

But he is not aggressive about his views, and you do not find Buddhists protesting in front of abortion clinics. Why?

A nice explanation is that Buddhists do not believe in forcing their moral views on others. A less nice explanation is that in America, the liberals are the best friends of the Buddhists, and why bite the hand which feeds you?

ROSSCPA: you misunderstand my posting. Although, I should have been more clear. I am aware that most Catholic dioceses (diocesi?) have "unwed-mother support programs". However, the Bishops who are so vocally against abortion being included in HCR are not being as vocal for including pre-natal screenings to make sure that all of these babies that they want to be born are born healthy. When the bishops start showing that they care about the mother's health as much as the embryo that she carries, then I will retract my statements.

If the bishops were that concerned about defending the defenseless, dioceses across America would not be going broke paying monetary damages to the victims of priestly statutory rape condoned and institutionalized by the bishops. Further, the bankrupt Diocese of Wilmington, Delaware would not be claiming that payments of pensions to the rapists should be placed higher in priority than payments to their victims.

Certainly a group comprised exclusively of celibate men and compromised by their active condoning of institutionalized sexual abuse of minors has every right to put forth its views about something that none of them has any personal familiarity with, based on their own theological beliefs. But they should not assume that their views should have any greater influence on law than the views of others, say, for example, the views of women who have been in situations that entailed abortions, the views of health care workers, or the views of leaders of other religious traditions.

And in terms of the argument that people should not have to pay taxes for policies they disagree with, that's a red herring. There are LOTS of things paid for out of taxes that I disagree with, such as "abstinence only" education and no-bid defense department contracts for an illicit war that has killed tens of thousands of the post-born and caused horrible havoc to the lives of millions. But in our democratic society, we really don't get to pick and choose.

Athena4:

The is old canard is a lie, and it has been shown to be a lie so often, that anyone who keeps repeating it should be banned from posting.

Every diocese in the country will assist any pregnant woman with financial support, health care, living arrangements, etc. whether she wishes to keep her child or place the child through an adoption. If she wishes to keep her child, often further assistance is available.

In most cases these support programs go back to Roe v. Wade or before.

The issue for Americans is not what the Catholic bishops declare. The issue is whether they are to govern the United States of America.

If they are, then we might as well stop voting and allow them to appoint members of Congress, the president, and the Court.

If they are not, then we must eliminate the "conscience clause" and pass legislation prohibiting religious institutions from lobbying Congress.

In other words, we, the people, must act to separate Church and State. We must do this by inundating our elected officials with emails, petitions, etc.

Separation of Church and State has never been fully realized in the US. The dream is getting away from us. The time to act is now.

"You would think that they would be the first ones calling for universal prenatal care."

They do, in fact, support universal health care, and have for some time.

These Bishop who Bohlin describes as "a voice of conscience, a moral witness" were a witness to something else: hiding pedophile priests from US Criminal justice. How many of these perverts in America were not even defrocked less alone not turned over to the authorities for their felonies.

These Bishops need to go before a Federal Grand Jury to determine if they should be indicted on Federal Racketeering charges:

accessory after the fact - a person who gives assistance or comfort to someone known to be a felon or known to be sought in connection with the commission of a felony

Obstruction of Jutice: A criminal offense that involves interference, through words or actions, with the proper operations of a court or officers of the court.

RACKETEERING ACTIVITY - (A) any act or threat involving …dealing in obscene matter, ……, which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year; any act which is indictable under the following [sections] of 18, U.S.C.: …..1461-1465 (obscene matter), 1503 (obstruction of justice), 1510 (obstruction of criminal investigations), 1511 (obstruction of State or local law enforcement), 1512 (tampering with a witness, victim, or informant), 1513 (retaliating against a witness, victim, or informant), ….. 2251-2252 (sexual exploitation of children), ..|”

Cardinal Rivera of Mexico has already claimed diplomatic immunity for hiding convicted felon "Father" Nicolas Aguilar, and the Pope can claim the same immunity as head of a foreign state, but these Americans should face US Criminal justice just like the rest of Americans would be. Instead they pontificate and bully a free democracy.

Why are they not on trial? Does the special, theocratic dispensation Cardinal Rivera and the Pope enjoy apply to his "Ambassadors" in the US. If so, they need to at least register as foreign agents.

" Like anyone else they have a right to speak, and it would serve our country well to pay them respectful attention."

Ah, another delicious red herring. Fr. Bohlin, no one should deny you your right to speak, but your demand for respect is beyond the pale.

Witness the bishop's attitude toward those who identify themselves as "pro-choice," while expressing a desire that abortions eventually become obsolete. The bishops blithely label these people: "Pro-Abortion," as if to depart the rigid party line means you are a murderer. That's a great way to foster "respect" for your views.

Or how about those who favor the use of contraception and sex education as lesser-evils to be employed to reduce abortions? These people are distained by the bishops as "part of a culture of death."

And yet, despite its use of offensive hyperbole, the bishops demand respect for their views.

How about respecting OUR views first?

Dr. Bohlin wrote:

"People should not be forced to cooperate in taking the lives of innocent, unborn children by paying taxes which will be used to that end."

I'd agree with him if he'd amend his statement to read:

"People should not be forced to cooperate in taking the lives of innocent, born children in war by paying taxes which will be used to that end."

BTW, will the Bishops support my seeking a refund of the taxes I unwillingly paid to support the Vietnam and Iraq wars?

"The U.S. bishops are not just another special interest group fighting for its share of the legislative pie." Whether or not you are fighting for a "share of the legislative pie," Catholics are simply another special interest group. Religious groups ARE political parties, and you are fighting, not for the good of "the whole," but for a narrow set of interests. You work to affirm life through your opposition to abortion and the death penalty, and you fight against civil rights in your opposition to gay marriage. Like every other political party, you Catholics are correct on some things and worng on others. Don't ever delude yourself that you are somehow above politics, or not a special interest group.

The "correct" side is human freedom (that was given to every human by god). All else, opinion (is your book the holy book or mine?). Enforced, opinion becomes dogma.

hariaum

So the church is going to commit (or threaten) to abandoning hospitals, community centers, schools, and churches near military bases as the church is opposed to the current war. Cool. Please do express your opinion and pull out of the country that does not do as you say.

hariuam

If the Church is so concerned about "saving babies", why aren't they doing more to help women deliver healthy babies? You would think that they would be the first ones calling for universal prenatal care. "Defending the unborn" means more than just making abortion illegal. It means making sure that all unborn children are born HEALTHY.