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Concerned: It seems like you have Crossan reducing the entire gospels of Luke, Mathew and Mark to the 'Lost Sayings Gospel Q', sayings which, incidentally, are hypothetical, have never been physically found.

No I haven't read all of his works sir just enough to know that if he'd spend more time trying to understand scripture rather than explain it away he and we would be far better off.

The argument about the length of Christs hair for instance overlooks the possibility that Jesus may have come in the guise of a Nazirite in which case he would have been forbidden to cut his hair.

His attack on the writtings of Luke seems largely based on the notion that the Romans who well before the 1st century AD used tile in all their building would not have done so in Jerusalem. Theri are many other things as well on which the Scholarship of Crossan and the Jesus seminarians is less than standard.

Garyd,

And you came to the conclusion by reading the over one hundred books by Crossan and the other contemporary NT scholars? Or have you simply "googlized" yourself?

As background materials, I highly recommend the early scriptural references used by said scholars. See the lists at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ and http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf

An fairly complete listing:

The numbers on the left are for an estimated range of dating.

30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen

When it comes to the Bible Crossan and the Jesus seminarians are the worst promulgaters of pure fiction ever.

For what it is worth the dichotomy is false and so is that particular interpretation of the question.

If you are a Christian you will have works and most of the time you won't even notice because the things of God are natural to you like breathing.

"Sophie’s Choice"

Ouch. Did you have to use that idiom: with anti-Semitism and Holocaust Denial finding more and more voice in the world?

Matt 15: 3-9 is another passage judged to be not of the historical Jesus but a later embellishment. See Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus for details.

Crossan analysis:
Item: 235
Stratum: II (60-80 CE)
Attestation: Single
Historicity: negative
Common Sayings Tradition: No

David,

It's late and I'm too tired to look it up, but I seem to recall Jesus being baptized. Something about entering in at the gate...and taking the sacrament...

He seemed to think it mattered.

Thought I oughta throw that in. Carry on all! Interesting discussion.

-LP

Well, I'm neither protestant nor catholic. I am a Christian. And it does make sense to me now. I hear from some catholics that these sacraments are a requirement for salvation. Some say otherwise. I guess just like Christianity, there are different sects of catholicism as well.

I see no problem with tradition myself. If doing these sacraments are just acts of faith, power to you! We all worship in our own ways. I would never bring down any act of worship unless it contradicted scripture. But if tradition conflicts with scripture....let's see what Jesus says.

Matt 15:3

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? vv 8-9

8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

So tradition is great if it doesn't conflict with scripture according to Jesus. Have a great day Viejita.

God bless

David,
we don't perform the sacraments to earn salvation. The salvation is there already, Catholic sacraments and other obligatory actions are a visible way that we participate in it. Great, large, communal symbols are an important part of our life as a continuation of a long tradition.

There are people for whom this does not make sense. They are called Protestants.

Reese says,

Thanks to the Lutheran-Catholic dialogue, both sides now agree that we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ not by our works, but our faith in Jesus compels us to do works of charity and justice.

Umm....I guess I didn't get the memo. So why is it still catholic doctrine to perform all the "holy sacraments" in order to "EARN" salvation? Isn't that adding works as a requirement to salvation instead of just faith? And if works are not a requirement anymore by the catholic church, then what is the point of purgatory?

Hey Reese, did the pope get the message that you just changed their beliefs? I think he might wanna know so he can change beliefs regularly like he always does....hence...."Limbo"???

Where does self-awareness fit in? Is it a good thing?

A Buddhist who has not attained enlightenment (possibly = to Christian salvation) can do good works, and doing them may aid in his progress toward enlightenment.

A person who has become enlightened will presumably do good works and nothing else.

More background on the topic:

Some faith vs. good works history, as per my good friend, a Catholic theology professor at a large Catholic university: It is all about Purgatory -

"Protestants because of Luther's "sola Scriptura" do not accept Purgatory as a valid doctrine of Christianity. Luther argued that "Purgatory"
is not explicitly found in the Bible. Many scholars believe that he rejected the notion because of its ties to the selling of writs of indulgence. People viewed indulgences as a means for lessening the time of temporal punishment
in purgatory. Protestants also argue that Purgatory negates the satisfaction of sin by Jesus' death. God's grace through the merits of Christ is the only thing that saves. Religious services / prayers by loved ones and the
good works of repentance for deceased persons can do nothing to help a person earn heaven. The rejection of purgatory, is part of a bigger tendency in Protestantism toward individual relationship with God and away from a
sense of participation in a bigger "communion" of the faithful.

"The Roman Catholic Church teaches that after death, those guilty of sins that are not serious (venial rather than mortal) and of mortal sins for
which persons have repented, must spend time being purified through "temporal punishment" or are given the opportunity to repent. The justice
of God requires some punishment for the sins we have committed, due to the harm they have caused. The Biblical basis for this teaching is 1 Cor 3:15. "If any person's work is burned up, he/she will suffer loss, though the person will be saved, but only as through fire." Purgatory is envisioned to be a purification, as gold is purified "as through fire," so is the soul of
the person who has committed sin. 2 Maccabees 12: 38-46 is also associated with belief in purgatory, because it refers to praying for those who havedied.

Some scholars trace purgatory as a teaching to the practice of third century Christians of praying for the dead. In the late 12th century
speculation emerged that depicted purgatory as a separate "place" or state of being existing somewhere between heaven and hell. At the Second Council of Lyons (1274) teaching about purgatory became an official doctrine of the
Catholic Church. It became fixed in the Catholic imagination due to Dante's Divine Comedy. During the Middle Ages (time of Crusades and Plagues)
Purgatory became an important element in Christian ascetical practices. Through such practices it was believed that the punishment due to sin could be paid here or in purgatory. In the Middle Ages speculation about Purgatory
heightened and the practice of offering masses for deceased loved ones began along with the system of indulgences. Offering prayers and Masses for the dead was seen as a way to be spiritually connected (in communion) with loved
ones.

For Catholics the doctrine of Purgatory is closely connected with belief in the Communion of Saints. This doctrine expresses the conviction that there is a communion between life after death (Saints in heaven and people making reparation for their sins in purgatory) and earthly life. Emphasis on the community of all persons living and dead is stronger in the Roman
Catholic Church than in Protestant Churches. Because of the belief in the Communion of Saints, Catholics pray for loved ones who have died, and pray not only to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but also to Mary and the
Saints, witnesses to and models of the Christian life. [Orthodox Christians also have the practice of honoring and praying to the Saints.] Devotion to the saints is viewed as an expression of love for those who have faithfully loved the God who is love itself."

For added review about Faith vs. Works, see Professors Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul, especially pp. 377-378.

An excerpt: " In the sixteenth century, Luther said two things about Paul's letter to the Romans, one fundamentally right, one fundamentally wrong, both fundamentally important. In the preface to his commentary on that letter he (Luther) said,

..............................
It is impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire."

"That last sentence is both crucial and correct. "

Daniel:
" . . . who say they are saved, spend their time crusading for trendy political causes"

Yeah.... but these people, since they are now forgiven and blessed and have a punched ticket on the golden chariot... believe these things.. screaming ( or worse) at clients of women's clinics, protesting (or worse) gay pride festival... ARE good deeds... (ever try to convince them otherwise?) Kinda like when R.M. Nixon said something to the effect "When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal"

"Being forced to choose between “being saved” or “doing good works” is presenting a false dichotomy"

This is a theoretical statement, which may be true in an imaginary world. But in the real world, people are usually one way, or the other.

A very large number of people who say they are saved, spend their time crusading for trendy political causes, such as pro-life work or anti-gay work, in the hopes that dedication to such easy, even indolent causes, will get them in good with God, and a pass into Heaven.

But they do not amount to any good works. From their lives, there are no good works, just endless declarations of salvation. These people claim to be Christians. But according to you, would they not be?

I didn't understand the last sentence. If we assume the Catholic Church today is now only as far as Martin Luther was 540 years ago, why is Fr Reese, SJ still a Catholic?

Wouldn't he want to be a mainstream Protestant? (They could use the membership!)