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I think Latin, being the language of The Holy Roman Empire, although many times if not most, it was anything but Holy, it may speak to some at least as trying to be that power again, of returning to the glory days when the Church had power, temporal and spiritual, although often corrupt.

I think it's nice that today, people can be participants in the Mass and not just bystanders.

Dear Fr. Reese (et al.),

Thank you for your explanation of the so-called "anti-semitism" that Abraham Foxman says is supposed to foment hatred of Jews.

It is a pity though, that you do not believe your own faith enough, and see it as enough of a good thing, to want to share it with others who do not already know about it.

You've also made a couple factual errors.

1) St. Hippolytus the antipope and Pope St. Callistus did not erupt into argument over the gradual process by which the Mass and Scriptures were translated into Latin in the early 3rd-4th centuries. St. Hippolytus wrote a Eucharistic prayer, in Latin, that is now included in the Sacramentary as Eucharistic Prayer II. The two ruptured over the practice the of reconciliation of post-baptismal sinners. Hippolytus thought Callistus was a "liberal", you might say, because he would allow those scared into apostasy during persecutions to return to the fold.

2) Latin did NOT become the language of the Mass because it was the language of the masses. It was NOT the language of the masses. It was spoken popularly in Rome and in much of Italy. The aristocratic and merchantile classes of Spain and Gaul (France and Northern Italy) spoke it, as did the upper classes of Dalmatia (coastal Yugoslavia) and North Africa. The army spoke it. Others spoke enough of it to avoid getting into trouble with the army. Latin, in its day was like English in ours. Spoken natively by a small amount of people, otherwise significant enough to get their native language used as the international trade and diplomatic language. Latin was the language of very few people, compared to the number for whom it was a second or utility language. The Mass was translated into Latin over a period of years in a very natural process precisely because everybody knew a LITTLE of it. In Christ's time, Greek served that function in the Eastern Mediterranean basin. In Callistus' time, Latin had come to rival Greek in the East and by far surpass it in the West.

There is a common misconception that Vatican II did away with the "Latin Mass". That is simply not true. Below is #36 of Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Vatican II document on sacred liturgy, accessible on the Vatican's website:

"#36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language."

And #54 gives examples of what is meant,

"54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed."

There was in Vatican II no authorization, let alone command, for the suppression of the Tridentine Mass. Those commands and authorizations came from the Vatican (which of course has the authority to make such moves) and Bishops' Conferences (which has much more limited authority in such matters) in subsequent years.

By a similar but more patient process, since 1984 the Vatican has been extending permission to use those old rites precisely because they were never intended for complete suppression.

Within the Catholic Church, there are 22 liturgical (or ritual) churches, all united to the Bishop of Rome. Each has one or more sets of rituals used, some of which are available translated into vernacular languages. Within the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, we have had for some time 3 different rituation uses that are basically the same, but somewhat different: the Roman, the Ambrosian/Milanese, and the Mozarabic rites. They differ in style, presentation, and the specifics of some prayers, though not necessarily in language. Now, with the restoration of the Tridentine rite, we have a 4th.

That's all. No big deal.

Norrie Hoyt,

Good to see you too. Sorry to not have been able to credit you directly. Good example though!

Yeah, Norrie, I've gotten that message a couple of times and I was totally innocent - just like you.

Hi, Everyone,

Sorry for the multiple posts. I swear this system is screwed up and I didn't do it.

By the way, I got the following rather rude, unpleasant and incorrect message, before I sent the post to Thomas Baum which appeared multiple times, AFTER SENDING JUST ONE POST (AT A TIME WHEN ALMOST NO ONE ELSE WAS POSTING!):

*****************************************

Comment Submission Error

Your comment submission failed for the following reasons:

Too many comments have been submitted from you in a short period of time. Please try again in a short while.

Return to the original entry

*************************************************

How about telling us in advance how many comments are too many comments ?!!

And how about counting the correctly the number of comments submitted??

NICE WORK, WAPO !!

Thomas Baum,

Thank you for your very kind comments.

Sincerely, NH

Thomas Baum,

Thank you for your very kind comments.

Sincerely, NH

Thomas Baum,

Thank you for your very kind comments.

Sincerely, NH

Danny B.,

"I like the opera example someone gave (maybe not in this thread) about hearing the translation and having it lose some of its overall quality."

That was me. Good to see you back here.

Regards.

To Norrie Hoyt: Thank you for your post of 7-14-2007 1:09 PM, we are all in this together and it is good to encourage one another and some people would probably be surprised to find out that they encourage me. To Concerned the Christian now liberated: Actually you sound like what a lot of people that call themselves christians are saying in that if you are in good standing you go to the "good place", your post of 7-15-2007 8:53 AM, God has an all encompassing Plan that will include all of His children, it is referred to as the mysterious plan of God in the book of revelations. Jesus, God Incarnate, won the keys to hell and spiritual death and laid them in our laps for all the people that condemn themselves in whichever way, that is what christianity is about, not being all puffed up because you know God's name. God bless you, Norrie Hoyt and thank you again, God bless absolutely everyone. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Bueno, como es evidente en este foro, el idioma es importante, si es que nos vamos a entender y formar comunidad católica. EVIDENTLY, LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT IF WE ARE GOING TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER AND BUILD OUR CATHOLIC COMMUNITY.

I recall another event, quite different than the one I described in my earlier post. This one suggests something perhaps positive about mass in Latin. My son, a baptized catholic, is regretably not fully a believer yet. He is reaonably fluent in 4 languages, but never studied latin. I've gone to mass twice with him in the past few years. The first was an english language mass and he was quite untouched by it (jesuits too, whom I care much for and he highly respects. Later I went with him to a sung mass, in Latin, and he remarked something like: "Seems like the less I understand the more it touches me!

Perhaps a Latin Mass will alter the intellectual filters just enough for Christ's light to flow in.

Viejita,

Gracias por los ejemplos.

I think that if I were raising children I would want them to know the mass in English so that they can fully understand and appreciate what is happening and why they are there. But for someone in my position, an adult who knows the what and why, it would be a nice option once in a while. I like the opera example someone gave (maybe not in this thread) about hearing the translation and having it lose some of its overall quality.

Another Spanish example, when I lived in Orlando I only ever heard Shakira or Thalia in Spanish. Then I came back to Detroit and heard them in English. I hadn't even know there were English versions of some of those songs. They sound funny to me when I hear them, and in some cases I think the power of the original lyrics has been compromised.

As I said before, I can recite the entire liturgy from memory. To hear it in Latin may be very moving for many people. And though it was not the original language of the mass, it really has been the most enduring. I think there is something to be said for acknowledging that heritage.

If young people, however, are not well versed in the mass of the vernacular, they would be shortchanged and not reached.

"Huera" (o huero) es una palabra cruda para el gringo, significa cutis de leche. No hablas "huero" en la compania cortes.
Aprendo a hablar en espanol a los ninos, y a los juegos de futbol. Los ninos llaman uno al otro "huero" o "indio" o "moreno" o incluso "negro." Por ejemplo, una chica con pelo claro se llama "blanca."

In a way it is on-topic for us to converse in Spanish, since Anonymous started us out with a story about 90% of his parish being asked to attend the mass in a language that was foreign to them.
So is the Latin mass going more responsive to the assembled people, or less?

Viejita,

?No quiero ser menso, pero "huera" es egual (un mexicanismo) que rubia, de verdad?

My comprehension was greatly improved by watching videos of El Chavo Del 8 repeatedly. The story lines were simple and corny, so they were easy to follow. Also, much of the humor is derived from constant repetition of tag lines and catch phrases:

Vamos tesoro, no te juntes con esta chusma!

Chusma, chusma...pffft!

Es que no me tiene paciencia!

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I watched it with the CC on, so that the dialogue was running below and I could read what I was hearing. Really helps with reading and writing too.

I did the same with Plaza Sesamo (Sesame Street in Spanish).

I know, I strayed off-topic...sorry all!

Danny B.
Escribo de Nuevo Mejico, donde toda la gente debe entender espanol (pero muchos no entienden). Yo -- pues entiendo pero no bien hablo.
--Viejita del oeste AKA la maestra huera

Viejita Del Oeste, Y Anoymous (El Catolico Latino),

!Saludos!

Soy de Detroit, pero vivi en Orlando por 4 anos. Yo aprendi espanol de los vecinos que estaba el unico "gringo" en los apartamentos. Me enseno mucho El Chavo tambien (!mi favorito!).

Being Catholic was something that we all had in common, and kind of eased the way in becoming neighborly before we were able to talk to each other. I loved how the neighbors all had pictures of The Virgin (different ones, from their respective countries) on their doors, and I did the same. I think that was an important ice-breaker.

I drove some older ladies (viejitas Peruanas) to Spanish mass before I even really spoke any Spanish. It was too hot for them to walk, I thought, and I was going to go to mass anyway. What I found interesting was that I could still follow the mass because it is actually the same. I, of course, could not understand the readings, but there was no question about the consecration.

My point in all this is actually more on the topic at hand; Latin Mass.

I have never attended a Latin mass, but as far as that goes, I can recite the mass myself (in English, of course) from memory. The readings and Homily are not done in Latin, just "The Mass", so really I don't see a problem with having that as an option. It is not being required, only available, so I really don't understand the flap.

It sounds like you ran into a combination of ethnocentrism, fear of change, and a small self-satisfied group trying to stay in command. The pastor seems to not only have facilitated this group but to have felt they were advancing his cause. Sad, since his cause was supposed to be ministering for Christ, not consolidating power.
Too often, this sort of thing is encouraged or ignored until the bishop suddenly notices how many members of his flock -- those he has most taken for granted -- have switched to Spanish-speaking (or whatever language the newcomers understand) Protestant congregations.

With regard to the Catholic priest who neglected the needs of spanish speaking majority of his coingregation, I will add a couple of more revealing events:

1. I complained to the other priests in the church, but they referred me back to him arguing that he was in charge. Among these was a Jesuit visiting from Spain although this was not a Jesuit parish. Not even he was willing to give the daily masses, or aditional Sunday masses, in Spanish.

2. I was referred to a church lay leader, a hispanic, but he wouldn't help. I asked him if he was on the Pastor's payroll and he said he was.

3. I went to speak before a council of the lay members of the congregation. I spoke to them in Spanish but even though the congregation was 90% hispanic, none of them understood me. I switched to English and asked them why they held their meetings in English if 90% of the congregation was hispanic. They responded that there were no spanish speakers in the council. I asked them why they would expect any, if the metings were held in English. I explained that if any spanish speaker came before them he or she would have been understood as much as me. They practically threw me out of the council. The person who had invited me to speak apologized for my presence.

4. I went to a political meeting in which the pastor was supposedly advocating for hispanic public school students to the candidates for mayor. No spanish literature was distributed to the spanish parents in attendance.The advocacy he provided was merely to ask the candidates to agree to meet with him if any one of them was elected. They all agreed. That was the extent of the advocacy, even though 50% of the hispanic students were dropping out of school. No requests were made for proposals on how they would deal with this utter failure of the local public system. Later I read the names of the financial contributors to the mayoral candidates. The Pastor had contributed $25 of church funds to one.

The problem is not only about language but about ethnocentricity, if not outright racism. Should we just hope there are no ethnocentered or racist bishops and that this pastor is an anomaly?

If you can't make out the address on the screen then call Pat Robertson and make a pledge. His Lear Jet crashed and he needs the money to replace it else God's word will not be heard. You do want God's word spread so everyone can contribute? The Chinese aren't even "in on it" yet.

As much as I hate to disagree, CTCNL have a look at the 3,000+ year old picture of heaven at http://www.hoax-buster.org Once the *poor boy* passed the lie detector test given by Satan and passed the eyeball test of St Peter he was let into heaven where he fell to his knees and with arms raised he praised God, the Trinity God directly. It doesn't say anything about him ever getting up. You're gonna love it. Fun, fun, fun. How do you say "fun, fun, fun" in Latin?

660 million dollars gifted to God and paid out for sex in the sanctuary? Breathtaking in any language. I guess God needs the money so His word can be spread or is that for something else? We wouldn't want anyone left out. There's still time for you to CTCNL. Send the money to the address at the bottom of your screen.

Again, the important point:

There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone of good standing with or without the assistance of B16 and/or Latin Masses.

In case anyone cares, here are part of the "Catholic" criticism that may provide context for Reese's analysis. I'll post it only on this one thread; it's kind of lengthy, so feel free to skip it if you aren't interested. It's by liturgy professor Mark Francis, writing in "The Tablet."
...Until now, the Pope, who is not a trained liturgist, has shown interest and sensitivity in liturgical matters. The motu proprio, though, seems to betray a real misunderstanding of liturgy's role in the life of the Church. It is ironic that, given the Pope's often-voiced antipathy toward relativism as both the bane of modern life and a threat to the integrity of the faith, he himself seems to have succumbed to the very relativism that he has so often denounced. It is legitimate to wonder, given liturgical history, theology, canon law, and pastoral practicalities, whether the liturgy is being taken seriously by this motu proprio or being treated as just another choice available in the "Catholic cafeteria"....
...[M]uch of the Tridentine Rite is a hybrid of medieval Franco-Germanic elements fused to a Roman core that dates from the late sixth century....
Perhaps the most problematic aspect of the "Tridentine Rite" is its treatment of Judaism. While the adjective "perfidious" describing the Jews was removed from the 1962 edition of the Missal there are still prayers that call for their conversion in direct contradiction to Vatican II's "Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions." In much the same vein, the Missal refers to Christians of other Churches as heretics and schismatics - descriptions of fellow Christians that are unlikely to promote much ecumenical dialogue. And since the lectionary attached to this Missal proposes practically no readings from the Old Testament it represents a deficient liturgical presentation of God's Word....
...[T]he old rite reflects the very limited liturgical attention the Counter-Reformation Church gave to the baptised faithful. It was the role of the ordained that was highlighted, and the gathered assembly is not even mentioned in the introductory material and rubrics of the "Missal of Pius V", thereby reducing their role to mute spectators....
...[A]nother weakness of the "Tridentine Rite" is its [weak]......theology of the Holy Spirit. While the faith of the Church expressed in the liturgy is in the Triune God - we pray to the Father, with the Son, in the Holy Spirit - try as you may, it is difficult to discern an...invocation of the Holy Spirit over the gifts and people in the Roman Canon.....
....All of the new Eucharistic Prayers composed for the "Missal of Paul VI" have such an invocation....
...The official proclamation that this medieval rite is "extraordinary" compromises the coherence of the Church's self-understanding and threatens to reduce the liturgy to a simple matter of individual "taste" rather than what it is meant to be: an accurate reflection of what we believe as Catholic Christians who live in the twenty-first century. Although cited several times in the document, the hallowed patristic axiom lex orandi, lex credendi (how we pray, so we believe) has been seriously ignored in this motu proprio....

I also was puzzled by the attacks on Fr. Reese. I think he and his detractors may be focusing on an ongoing intra-Catholic argument that was unfamiliar to some of the other On Faith readers....

Most of the parishes where I live (in the American Southwest) were founded by Spanish speakers, so we do not have quite the problem you describe. We do have a few very vocal Anglos on the parish council who would like us to stop singing Spanish hymns when their relatives are in town, but since our "coro" has 16 members and the next largest ensemble has 4, we sorta have the upper hand. I sympathize to a point: I can't stand having to sing that 1970s-style English music any more than they like being asked to join in on the "Amar" or "Pastorcitos del Monte..."

Farther up this thread I shared the story of my former parish in Chicago going through the changes you're talking about. Anonimo, I am pleased to report that the last time I attended (more than 15 years ago) the Latinos had their Spanish mass in the main church.

I am a latino Catholic and I really do not understand why so many fellow Catholics are attacking Father Reese. It appears to me that they have their priorities quite confused, and that their reading of the gospel is dangerously flawed.

A congregation I used to be part was 90% non English apeaking hispanic. Yet the US American fully bilingual pastor would give 2 daily masses in English and none in Spanish; and of the 4 Sunday masses, 3 were in English.

The church was mostly empty except for the one hispanic mass. I asked the pastor to consider giving more masses in Spanish, 1 daily, and 2 on Sunday. He first responded that the Hispanics would probably not come (little did he know us), and then that the responsibility for the daily masses would fall on him since the other priests were not bilingual. That's what he said to my astonished ears, so I politely insisted that he consider my request.

Two weeks later I returned to see what his decision had been, but he had 'forgotten' my request, even though it concerned 90% of his flock.

Many Catholics who have posted comments here remind me of said 'pastor´, and it indeed quite troubling, and the position they advocate can be quite sinful.

CTCNT, the GUN of HELL was held to his head from the time he could think at all. Now it's a permanent fixture. There's little hope for him and the billions so infected.

http://www.hoax-buster.org is a breath of hope laying out the source of the aggravation, the *demon on the nebol bridge* Father Reese has that monster, *Eater* that eats the regenerated bodies of dead sinners, those who broke Pharaoh's rules, tattooed on his brain. Tattoos are difficult, painful to remove. Putting them on children is a crime for sure and likely a civil liability as well.

In the practice of mind-medicine the truth can be a cure. Time will tell how well the truth fares in the face of the biggest lie ever told. Can the crucified truth rise from the dead?

We cannot say there is no God but we can say the being in the ball of fire did not exhibit the accepted** characteristics of God as God is now defined. At the time of Moses, actually a thousand years later, *less than almighty gods* were in style. The authors of the original Bible stories identified the *ball of fire* god to be the sun, an acceptable god to all peoples at the time. It's a hoax to identify it otherwise.

Thomas Baum,

Your apparent breeding, birth and brainwashing in Catholicism are troubling. I recommend a sincere effort to review the real history of first century Palestine in order to come to grips with the reality of it all starting with Matthew 28, a late addition by scribes to enhance conversion of Gentiles and Jews to the cause. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/018_Revealed_to_Disciples

Thomas Baum,

Thanks very much for your post of July 13 @ 4:38 pm, which I just found. I also carefully reread your post of July 12 @ 4:23 pm. Thank you for reminding me of it. What you wrote there are truly Christian sentiments.

So I am happy to revise my post of July 12th @ 8:02 pm from:

"If this thread were reserved for Christian posters, at this point it would be blank and empty."

to:

"If this thread were reserved for Christian posters, at this point it would be blank and empty, save only for Thomas Baum's post of July 12th @ 4:23 pm.

Very best wishes to you.

To Anonymous in reply to E Favorite and the rest of the world: I am Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith and when Jesus said, "Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church", maybe you should let it sink in. Jesus said "My Church" He did not say that it is your church Pete. Also "upon this rock I will build My Church" we are all called to be rocks in building the body of Christ, the Church. And when Jesus said, "and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it" maybe we should believe what Jesus said and let it sink in, He won the keys to death and hell and He laid them in our laps, being a dead Catholic is pretty much the same as when Jesus talked about the white-washed tombs of some of the religious of His day, being religious does not cut it, you can spiffy up the outer all you want but if the insides are dead, well refer to what Jesus said. As far as the Supreme Pontiff goes another of the Pope's titles is servant of the servants of the Lord. Jesus said, "Come follow Me", He did not say well follow Peter now did He? Jesus also said to Peter, "Feed My lambs, tend My sheep, feed My sheep, He did not say well they are your lambs and sheep now did He? To JOHN EAKINS in reply to E Favorite and the rest of the world: You talk about sacred things that us low life are forbidden to touch well it seems to me that when Jesus was walking this planet He not only let scum like me touch Him but that is exactly why He became a human being in the first place, here God is reaching out to His beloved creation in the most intimate way by becoming one of us and now we are trying to sew back together the curtain from the entrance to the HOLY OF HOLIES that was torn in two. As for becoming soldiers for Christ maybe we should try to be what we already are, brothers and sisters of Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews, sons and daughters of Dad, God the Father, the people that are knitted together in our mother's womb by our Knitting Buddy, the Holy Spirit. And when I say "what we already are", I do mean we, all of humanity. People can hide behind their religion all they want but God happens to be a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. WE SHALL ALL BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, God wins total victory, satan loses, a tie is absolutely unacceptable. As far as true religion goes, that is taking care of widows and orphans, which means all of our brothers and sisters. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Dr. Brown,

As noted previously, Aquinas with verification by JP II concluded that Heaven is a spirit state. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

From that it flows that there was no physical resurrection of Jesus or anyone else. This is basically the same rationale being taught in theology classes at many large Catholic universities.

Dying is natural. All creatures and plant life die and it has nothing to do with the mythical Adam's misbehaviour in a mythical garden populated by mytical talking snakes but then being bred and born in Catholic orthodoxy and brainwashed in Vatican schools you also probably believe in angels aka "pretty, wingie, talking thingies", Satan et al aka the demons of the demented and prophets aka fortune tellers.

And how many of Professors Crossan, Borg and/or Fredriksen books have you read cover to cover? Or do you suffer from a bit of "Googlizing"?? BTW, the professors are also on the On Faith's list of scholars/panelists and I don't see your name on the list of expert panelists. Why is that???

Dr. Brown,

As noted previously Aquinas with verification by JP II concluded that Heaven is a spirit state. From that it flows that there was no physical resurrection of Jesus or anyone else. This is basically the same rationale being taught in theology classes at many large Catholic universities. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Dying is natural. All creatures and plant life die and it has nothing to do with the mythical Adam's misbehaviour in a mythical garden populated by mytical talking snakes but then being bred and born in Catholic orthodoxy and brainwashed in Vatican schools you also probably believe in angels aka "pretty, wingie, talking thingies", Satan et al aka the demons of the demented and prophets aka fortune tellers.

And how many of Professors Crossan, Borg and/or Fredriksen books have you read cover to cover? Or do you suffer from a bit of "Googlizing"?? BTW, the professors are also on the On Faith's list of scholars/panelists and I don't see your name on the list of expert panelists. Why is that???

Dr. Brown,

As noted previously Aquinas with verification by JP II concluded that Heaven is a spirit state. From that it flows that there was no physical resurrection of Jesus or anyone else. This is basically the same rationale being taught in theology classes at many large Catholic universities. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Dying is natural. All creatures and plant life die and it has nothing to do with the mythical Adam's misbehaviour in a mythical garden populated by mytical talking snakes but then being bred and born in Catholic orthodoxy and brainwashed in Vatican schools you also probably believe in angels aka "pretty, wingie, talking thingies", Satan et al aka the demons of the demented and prophets aka fortune tellers.

And how many of Professors Crossan, Borg and/or Fredriksen books have you read cover to cover? Or do you suffer from a bit of "Googlizing"?? BTW, the professors are also on the On Faith's list of scholars/panelists and I don't see your name on the list of expert panelists. Why is that???

To Norrie Hoyt: Concerning your post about christian posters, I am Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith, but sometimes we seem to be forgetting all about God and get caught up in all of the outward things. I posted at 4:23 PM on 7-12-2007 if you care to read it and maybe make a comment about it. I happen to be the New Testament Moses, I didn't even know there was suppose to be one, well there was, and I'm him. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

You wrote:

"Much of what they have found and concluded (different analyses, same results) is being taught at many major Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U and Notre Dame). For example, there was no physical resurrection, there was A&E, and no original sin/limbo and therefore Baptism is now only an initiation into our Faith of Catholic reality."

There was no Original Sin? In so far as Death is the punishment for Original Sin, are you saying that people don't die?

To Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:

1. Crossan is an ex priest who is projecting his own considerable prejudices on Jesus, trying to turn him into a political revolutionary, as is He were in the IRA. It wouldn't surprise me if Crossan next says that Jesus ran a pub.

2. You are confused about the nature of Heaven. Christ is there, in Body and well as Soul. Also, the Body of His Mother has been assumed into Heaven.

3. You are also confused about the thought of St Thomas Aquinas. For more than 30 years I have studied his works. I hold the STB, STL, and STD from the Pontifical University bearing his name and am one of the few who have those three degrees with the Thomistic Studies specialization.

I assure you that St Thomas makes no such statement about there being no second coming or assumption.

4. And whoever told you that St Thomas denied the physical resurrection, either of Christ or of believers, is either A) lying, B) mistaken, or C) Just simply an idiot.

D, all of the above, is also an option.

5. I would advise you to spread your venom somewhere else.

Mary C,

How about a refenence affirming the numbers you cite???

And I highly recommend some of Professor Crossan and Professor Borg's books for your X-mas list.

And when you visit the States again, take in a graduate course in Catholic theology at Catholic U or Notre Dame.

And keep in mind that as per Aquinas and reinforced by JPII that Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no second coming, no bodies now or before are there, no physical resurrections and no assumptions.

And as per James Somerville, a retired philosophy professor from Xavier University (Cincinnati, OH), there is no religion in Heaven. With or without religion, therefore, Heaven is open for business for any soul in good standing.

"The 1970 missal of Paul VI, which is used today, says:

"Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.

"Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen."

This is my prayer:

“Let us pray for the Catholic Christian people, not the first to hear the word of Buddha, that they may grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his dharma.”

“O Lord Buddha, long ago you gave your teachings to all peoples. Listen to us Buddhists as we pray that the Catholic Christian people may arrive at the fullness of enlightenment in accord with your teachings.”

E Favorite:

You know, of course, that:

"clowns, guitars, altar chickies, half-naked dancers and old ladies desecrating the Body of Our Lord because their hands are not consecrated, and hands that are not consecrated, as with a priest, are forbidden to touch sacred things and there is nothing more sacred than the Body of Our Lord"

does not happen at Traditional Latin Masses. And I agree that the children will grow to be good soldiers for Christ.

John Eakins – Such a pity that you’ve had to put up with those disgusting "altar chickies" and "old ladies” with “hands that are not consecrated” who go around touching “sacred things.”

Thank God, though, for those admirable little Catholic children who are “well behaved, silent” and “know when to genuflect.” It sounds like they’ll make wonderful soldiers of Christ someday.

John Eakins:

I wouldn't be concerned for Christian because his philosophy is entirely neoconservative (which is why he quotes Crosson so often): hence he is atheist, secular and right wing. His faith is in reason and he believes man can be perfected by man. Failing that he believes man should be changed by violence.

Fr Reese:

I gave you bad figures on the number of Catholics in England and Wales. There are 4.3 million, of which about two million attend Mass weekly. There are one million Catholics in Scotland and a further 500,000 in Northern Ireland. The Catholics in Northern Ireland are the most devout (as you would expect) and almost all of them attend weekly Mass. Catholics in England and Wales are concentrated in the cities...the London church is especially vibrant. As I wrote earlier the laity is delighted about the introduction of Latin in the Mass.

Regards,
Mary Cunningham

Concerned, etc.

a. You are delusional.
b. Suggesting web sites such as you did will lead souls to perdition and you will be held accountable. Hell is real.
c. Revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.
d. There is no new dogma and only the Catholic Church, prior to Vatican II in my opinion, can be trusted to define dogma.
e. The only Bible is the Douay-Rheims, the rest are bastardizations.
f. "Catholic" universities, including Notre Dame are no longer Catholic, so who cares what they teach.
g. Modernism is a sin.
h. Heresy is a mortal sin.

Good luck and goodbye.

Mr. Eakins,

Again as many of us with at least twelve years of Catholic education/propaganda, you suffer from the three B's, i.e. bred, born and brainwashed in the Roman/Latin Church and are kept that way by old, celibate, white, European males like JPII and B16.

Open your mind to reality and read some of the historical Jesus books of the contemporary NT scholars. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

Much of what they have found and concluded (different analyses, same results) is being taught at many major Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U and Notre Dame). For example, there was no physical resurrection, there was A&E, and no original sin/limbo and therefore Baptism is now only an initiation into our Faith of Catholic reality.

Vatican II said Latin was to remain the language of the Latin rites and that priests were to continue their schooling in the Latin language.

Concerned, etc.

Judging by your comments the only thing I can do for you is pray for your conversion for the salvation of your soul, because it sounds to me like you are putting your soul in jeopardy.

Dominus Vobiscum

B16 also suffers from his breeding, birth and brainwashing in orthodox Catholicism and can't even make a clear escape from the significantly stupid concept of limbo because he knows full well that if limbo goes so goes original sin, one of the dogmas and guilt trips of orthodox Catholicism.

Concerned TCNL
I have no video or any other proof, but if you go to one of the established Latin liturgies you are likely to see a majority of worshipers in their twenties and thirties. This at least has been my experience. And the celebrant is likely to be young as well. It may be an attempt to regain lost roots, or a reaction against 1970s-style liturgies which are recognizably dated.
Also you are not taking into account that until this recent statement from the Vatican, the Tridentine Mass was considered somewhat rebellious and subversive. Now that there is no longer a rule against it, it will be interesting to see if the ritual loses some of its cachet with younger people.

As always, Jesuit Father Reese offers brillant
commentary on "current events' in the Church.
I dare say that the Tridentine mass offers
nostalgia, and nothing more. We have a
wonderful Tanzanian priest in our inner-city
San Francisco parish, who tells us that the
Latin mass is thoroughly a "non-issue" on the
African continent; people there simply
struggle to exist on a daily basis, while
Holy Mother the Church ministers not only
to their spiritual, but physical needs as well.
I firmly believe that as a faith community in the
US, the Catholic Church ought concern itself
more with issues of social justice, the death
penalty, poverty, housing for the homeless health care for the un-insured, the war in Iraq & the environment, (to name a few) and less with "Smells and Bells"! +Saints Ignatius of Loyola, Dominic and Francis of Assisi, pray for us.

Mr. Eakins,

Please provide some U Tube video substantiating that Latin Masses are being attended by "young" Catholics. If there are any there, they are like many of us, bred, born and brainwashed into Catholism and have not taken the time to think outside the guilt trips imposed upon us by the "AARPEE", "celibate", European "papal thumpers".

Dear Father Reese,

PLEASE OBEY THE POPE!!!

CRUX SACRA SIT MICI LUX NON DRACO SIT MICI DUX!

If this thread were reserved for Christian posters, at this point it would be blank and empty.

A Former Altar Boy (Novus Ordo I presume) wrote :

"B16 appears to be short on funds and is appealing to the likes of Opus Dei and US Catholic "AARPeers" for support by "going Latin" again."

Now you are showing your ignorance. It is not now nor has it ever been just about the Latin. The Latin is important because before V II and the Bugnini Masonic/protestant Mass no matter where you went in the world you could assist at Mass and know that every Mass would be the same. Now you have a choice between clowns, guitars, altar chickies, half-naked dancers and old ladies desecrating the Body of Our Lord because their hands are not consecrated, and hands that are not consecrated, as with a priest, are forbidden to touch sacred things and there is nothing more sacred than the Body of Our Lord; presuming of course that the consecration is valid, but these days you never know.

You don't have a clue. There is nothing traditional about Opus Dei and they don't celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass anywhere in the world, so you can bet that they aren't sending any money to Rome. As for the 'AARPeers' if you had taken the time to visit a traditional Mass or a traditional parish you would note that the bulk of the parishioners are young families with many young children. You will see a few elderly but its about 70/30 young families. And, the children are well behaved, silent, stay put and but for the toddlers know when to genuflect, kneel, etc.

Remember this: Just like Fr. Reese, the more you talk and the more you write the more likely it is that your true colors will surface. Especially when its the case that you don't know what you're talking about. The rule of thumb is that when you're in a hole, stop digging.

Back on the topic!!!!

Vatican II put Latin in its
proper place, a historic "no longer functional" language of the Roman Slave Empire.

B16 appears to be short on funds and is appealing to the likes of Opus Dei and US Catholic "AARPeers" for support by "going Latin" again. Maybe Pontius will make another appearance!!!!

Vatican II put Latin to its
proper place, a historic "no longer functional" language of the Roman Slave Empire.

B16 appears to be short on funds and is appealing to the likes of Opus Dei and US Catholic "AARPeers" for support by "going Latin" again. Maybe Pontius will make another appearance!!!!

Someone said something about the Latin mass helping him to avoid sin. There is much truth in that. I attend both forms of the mass and there is much more direct talk, during Latin mass sermons, about what sin is and how to avoid it. And throughout the Latin mass, the prayers repeatedly invoke God's mercy.

It is not about language, it is not about dogma, it is not about theology, but it is about God and God's Plan is it not? You can have all of the religion you want, all the dogma you want, all the pharisitical and scribal leaven you wish to use but if you don't have Love, well what do you have? A lot of people will be trying to hide behind their religion well guess what God does look at what you do and why you do it and if you are forgiving, check out the Lord's Prayer those of you who call yourself christian, being a christian is more than going thru the motions no matter what kind of fancy clothing you put on it. By the way God wins Total Victory, satan loses, a tie is completely and utterly unacceptable. Also God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. God is a Trinity, God is Pure Love, Jesus is True Man and True God, and Jesus is the SAVIOUR OF ALL HUMANITY. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Dear Fr. Reese:
My parish is still battling over whether or not to stand or kneel and that is still an actively hot issue. It seems like all we get is controversy - new translations from ICEL - etc.

Has anyone thought about how this affects catachetical education? Two forms of Mass to kids whom we see once a week for 1-1/2 hours is a challange in getting formation instilled.

God help us one and all!

Dear Father

Nice try on the article but I'm not buying it. I studied for eight years under the Jesuits at Bellarmine and Santa Clara so I understand your dialect. The points you raise concerning the Tridentine Mass are irrelevant to the real issues. The big question I have is why are you and the rest of lavender mafia within the Church so afraid of a remnant of "kooky" traditionalists? I think deep down you’re afraid that it will show just how banal the new mass and its accompanying ecclesiology really are, and how irrelevant the post-Vatican II church has become. You weren't even relevant in the 60's let alone today. The only thing that staves off reality is that you have millions of dollars worth of Real Estate that you can sell to finance your sexual indiscretions, the lack of attendance at just about every sacrament and most importantly an unprecedented vocations crisis. The issues go far beyond Latin or Greek, the Latin Mass is not just another old rite but an accompanying theology than helps simpletons like me to avoid sin and lead a more Catholic life. My generation tried your version of the world and wound up with a nasty hangover and hungry for something much deeper. Sorry, but I’ll take Aquinas and Mozart over De Chardin and Baez any day. Dominus Vobiscum.

For John Eakins:

Fr. Reese, pleases SHUT UP!

To Mary:

What is so ironic is that when Fr. Reese was 30, he probably attacked the over-60 priests and lay faithful for being "out of touch" and living in the past. Now he is over 60 and young priests and young lay faithful think he is out of touch. Young people have come to see the emptiness of the radicalism of the 60's and 70's, and we have sought traditional worship. If anyone is afraid to accept change, it is his generation because to do so would mean having to admit how wrong they were in so many areas.

I'm so tired of the tyranny of the baby boomer generation to which Fr. Reese belongs. Whether it is the Church or anything else - everything is political. Every expression of authority is wrong. And, the rest of us are completely ignorant. Worse, they don't see their own contradictions. One of the main arguments of the liberal crowd is - this isn't what the people want. Well, some do! Isn't the current decision a sign that the church hierarchy is more willing to be inclusive and more willing to listen - not less. I really don't care about the Latin Mass but I really hate the tyranny of the liberal over-50 crowd who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. Someday, I'd like to hear Fr. Reese preach. He has been described by many as a good priest. Yet, I find little of spritual comfort in anything he writes - he misses the larger point - that things only appear to be only poltical.

Why did you become a Jesuit? The charter states that the Order of Preachers will defend the Pope to the death!!!! What a sad thing it is to see such a once proud Catholic order being reduced to heretical state (let's not forget even John Paul II prevented the Jesuits from electing their own superior in the early 80's due to such heresy coming out of the Order) :( Father...look at some of the messages left by people who think it is ok to be Catholic and question the Magisterium of the Church and the Pope himself...Also notice that those with intelligent responses disagree with you. Have you ever heard of the term relativism and thought about what you are doing to perpetuate that in the world? If you no longer believe in the Church or the Office of Peter then have the self dignity to admit you no longer believe in the Church of the Apostles. BTW as far as the Bishops authority is concerned...I think the Pope has made it clear he isnt impressed with many of their track records, or their ability to take orders from above. Such pride everyone has in their own intellect now days :(

He's not going to go away. He likes being the -go-to guy' for the secular media. They have an ax to grind, anti-Catholic, and they need him, Greeley and some others to bolster their anti-Catholic, anti-Pope positions. You will never see the secular press interview solid Catholics. Only the dissenters.

The more left they are the more press they get. Let them enjoy their few minutes of fame; 'What good does it do a man gain the whole world at the expense of his soul?'

Let us all pray that the Holy Ghost enlightens Father Reese mind and soften's his heart that he may see the truth clearly and become obedient to His Vicar on earth,Pope Benedict XVI.
Long Live Christ the King!

Father Reese is a has-been who will be dead before we know it. People like Father Reese are blind beyond comprehension, as they cannot see the fact that they cannot pass on their legacy. They don't have another generation of Catholics to take up their banner of error because those Catholics have either contracepted themselves out of existence or are leaving (or have left) the Church. Then Traditionalist Catholics, those with many children, will be left, and we will have our Mass, the Tridentine Mass.

Good-bye, Father.

While the 1962 liturgy isn't perfect, it captures the meaning of Christ's sacrifice far better than the liturgical abuses of the past 45 years.

Hopefully, any group demanding the 1962 rite will also pony up the resources necessary: missals, hymnals, music, etc. I'll be happy to contribute.

Father Reese,

Will you please go away? It's clear by now that you are not orthodox and you have no sense of Catholic Tradition or traditions. I have no idea why you are the "go to" person for so many MSM outlets, but you hardly give a fair, unbiased analysis of events in Catholicism. All that you and those of your ilk have done for American Catholicism is divide, water down the faith, encourage disrespect for the Pope and the bishops and generally create an atmosphere of distrust among the faithful. Pope Benedict has illustrated that you have not succeeded. Now, just please go away.

What is it about Georgetown? Pronouncements from its (so-called) Catholics fly right up the noses of the faithful. Well, you can say this about Fr Reese, he certainly unites Catholics as does no one else.

Anyhow, when I think how close the Catholic laity came from being cut off from its musical tradition (by liberal clergy cutting off lay access to Latin and the Tridentine Mass) I shudder a little. It would have been worse than a crime, it would have been a sacrilege. In our small parish we are going to experiment with some of Wm Byrd's motets--I have offered to play accompaniment during the practice sessions...(Yikes!)

(For North Americans not acquainted with Byrd, he wrote some of his most beautiful pieces during a period of intense persecution of Catholics, well, during his entire *life* there was intense persecution of Catholics. But Byrd stayed faithful, and, like Shakespeare, somehow managed to avoid arrest.)

E Favorite,
I do not know what,"Sudnay School",you attended,but you did not learn what the Church teaches, in the truth that Our Sacred Lord Consecrated St.Peter as the first Supreme Pontiff when Christ stated,"Thou art Peter,and upon this Rock I will build my Church,and the gates of Hell SHALL NOT prevail."
The Church has always taught that Pope St Peter was the first Pontff.
To believe otherwise is heresy.
I am assuming you are either a protestant or just vastly uninformed.
I hope that you pray to our Blessed Mother and the Holy Ghost that God will enlighten your mind to the Truth of His Church.
God bless you.

Father Reese is right in only one matter: The reform of the English translation of the Novus Ordo will have a much greater impact on the Church in the US -- lex orandi, lex credendi. Soon, Catholics in English-speaking countries will get back the real voice and spirit of the liturgy -- whether in English or Latin or both, whether in ordinary or extraordinary usus. And they'll see the continuity in magisterium between John XXIII and Benedict, and between Trent and Vatican II.

The lights are going out for your kind of deceitful, unfaithful America/Commonweal/NC Reporter kind of "catholicism", Father Reese.

Et cum spiritu tuo, Pater.

Will somebody please tell this dissenting priest to just shut-up. Not only has he and those of his ilk virtually destroyed the once proud Jesuits but now they are doing everything they can to undermine the Catholic Church.

He was removed, by Rome, for his radical writings and for the allowing of dissident opinions contrary to Catholic Faith, from the Jesuit magazine and now, just maybe, we have a pope who is not afraid to further sanction him.

And I pray Benedict is that pope.

Shame on you Father Reese.

Dan Hunter - you tell Fr Reese that he "must assent to Pope Benedict and become obedient to the Will of the Triune Godhead" based on your position as a layman? It sounds pretty demanding, although I must admit I'm not sure what it means.

One thing I do know -- Peter was not the first Pope. I learned he was in Sudnay School, but since learned that the papacy was not established until centuries after Peter died - if in fact he ever existed.

Father,
You could not be more wrong on literally all your points.
Firstly you are dissenting from the official teaching of the Holy Father and therefore the Church which is Christs Body.
You must assent to Pope Benedict and become obedient to the Will of the Triune Godhead.
The Canon of the mass,and therefore the consecration is centurys older than your stated,"fifth century".
Pope St Peter Himself was using the majority of what the 1962 Canon includes to this day.
Your self percieved view that the Church should strip away an Divinely Inspired organic development smacks of antiquarianism, which is a condemned view of reversing what the Church has deemed as organically developed reality.
As to your point that the,,"poor priests" will be overworked by the scary extra mass:There are literally hundreds of priests,in America alone,learning the Classical Rite mass as we speak.And the seminarys are teaching Latin again.
Father,it is not rocket science.I am a layman with only 2 years of assisting at the Classical Rite,but I could recite 70% of the Mass from memory,and I am not even trying that hard.
The Fssp and ICKSP are training and graduating a myriad priests who can to teach other priests the Classical Rite and offer it themselves everywhere.
We should all get down on our knees and sing a Te-Deum of thanksgiving that our Holy Father has acknowledged what has always been the case,namely that the Classical Rite has ALWAYS been our heritage and is always allowed to be offered as the Holy Sacrifice of the mass.
Father,do not dissent from Church teaching but assent to Her and the Lord will reward you greatly.
Deo Gratias,
Dan Hunter

Father Reese, thank you for giving so many faithful Catholics the opportunity to praise the Pope's generosity and insight.

I cannot understand why you, as a priest, wouldn't want to pray for heretics and Jews, but don't you think it's the charitable thing to do? After all, Christ did.

We are all sinners, and need each other's prayers and sustenance. I believe you should explain your evident animosity towards our beloved Pope Benedict. He caused you to lose your job as editor of the Jesuit magazine America, right?

Can't you accept that in humble obedience? Or did you skip that vow?

Please read Thomas Merton's "Waters of Siloe" for a wonderful account of how beautiful is the vow of obedience, and the spiritual wonders that flow from its faithful embrace by religious the world over through the centuries.

Fr, you would serve your flock SO much better if you'd stop being such a rebel towards Rome.

Norrie Hoyt wrote:

"The question would have been of more importance and greater general interest, though, had the pronouncement been the Pope's recent statement that many churches that had imagined they were Christian, in fact aren't."

Christopher responds:

That is not what the recent statement said at all. The magisterium proclaimed that Roman Catholicism alone has the fullness of the Church. Orthodox Christians, by this reading, are also Churches, but lack fullness by their schism. Protestants are still Christian and Christocentric, but are said to lack full sacraments and legitimate apostolic succession, but can still provide salvation. The Church states that as long as Christocentricity is present, salvation is possible. There is nothing in the statement to suggest Protestants or Orthodox are not "Christian."

Another disgruntled Jesuit, what else is new? The order founded to support and be loyal to the papacy have wandered in the desert for 40+ years now.
I fully support the return to the Latin Mass and had been forced to endure polka masses, children's masses, African dance masses, puppets at mass, ballet during the mass, etc, etc for 40 years now.
I left the Church for this and other reasons.
It is time the Roman Catholic Church returned some dignity to the Mass and stopped serving donughts and coffee after Mass in the BACK OF THE CHURCH! The sense of the sacred has been totally lost so I lost my faith in the Church but not God.

Dear Fr. Reese, SJ

To attack the Holy Father, this is exactly what you are doing and have been doing since 1985. Is really and truely an attack on the Holy Spirit. For it was the Holy Spirit that moved the Cardinals hearts to elect Josepf Carinal Ratzinger as the Vicar of Christ. For Mass is the Mass, not a theological or church politics debate.
The Mass is the "source and summit" of Christian life. Mass is the unbloody representation of Jesus at Calvary. It is the living real expression of St. John's Gospel as portrayed and revealed in Chapter 6. There is no crime in Mass period.

Paganplace
You and I both know that many traditional Catholics -- even, I suspect, some priests -- are Pagans at heart. Besides the lip service to Jesus, what keeps them affiliated with the world's oldest and largest multinational corporation is the desire for power and/or prestige. That's the men, at least. Many of the women are Christians who have found a way to quietly indulge their Goddess-worship.
I'll admit a lot of this today because I'm irritated with Benedict.
BTW I don't always argue with you because you usually make sense.

Ok, apparently that viewpoint wasn't worth considering. Here's where I'm true to type and wash my hands. Good luck. :)

Tony
It is like pulling teeth to get any of the various music ministers at the neighborhood parishes I attend to sing or play anything written before 1970. I learned more of the old-time Catholic hymns as a Congregationalist than I've ever heard in mass. Got any suggestions?
Anonimo
In the current Latin mass, the vernacular sections should be said in the language of the people -- not Spanish, if they're not Spanish speakers. A good topic for seminary training, que no?

I hope people get closer to God with the Latin mass. Vatican II has wounded and confused so many good people.

Just another comment if I may, that when were young we look to the future but as we age we begin more and more to look towards the past often forgetting that the past was not always as rosy as we would like to remember. Who said we can't have the old music, like any music it has no age.

And, just for elucidation, on this: I took Latin in Catholic school for *six years.* I really liked it. One of the few things I liked. I was the only one in my senior class who even understood what we were taught.

I sat down in front of the AP exam and was like, "Great. Six years, and I've been reading Dick And Jane books. Sorry, Padre."

Know what this involves.

Not being Catholic, (unless the Catholic church wants to count me in their numbers, ...what's a girl gotta do to get excommunicated, anyway? :) )

...well, I have limited direct stake in all this... but some experience, I'm afraid.

It's not necessarily about what it's said to be abou.

This is about *power.*

I loved Latin, but I was a freak.

This move could function to remove the clergy from accountability for consistency between the stuff in the services, as opposed to what they *say* it means.

I mean, big difference, anyway, right? But.

Do you want your future to be kneeling to a language they don't understand, and then told what to think of it from the pulpit?

Your choice.

That said, Latin's cool. :)

I can understad now why Jesus had to start a new Church. How difficult it is for the conservative minded to change, to give up the past and begin anew.

Speaking of the "last supper" Fr Reese, the language spoken was ancient Egyptian and it was recorded too wasn't it? This Latin thing isn't the Vatican trying to "brain storm" it's way out of an archaeological discovery?

What http://www.hoax-buster.org says, not the spoof on Moses selling his soul but the meat of the matter is viewed with a level of possible difficulty by the Vatican. Of that we can be sure.

Sooner or later the question about what FAITH will do, how it will fare in the face of FACT will have to be answered. That silly looking web site has some information archaeologists have been looking for in all the wrong places. Now they know. Latin mass, twist and squirm but the lie is revealed.

Of course there's nothing to keep an enterprising individual from starting a "state, US government authenticated, Bible based religion" that worships Lucifer. After all, Lucifer is the being in the fire Moses made the deal with, be Lucifer fact or fiction. It's FAITH and not FACT that matters isn't it?

Norrie Hoyt: Agree totally on the left brain/right brain observation. Although the Church frustrates me to no end some days, I'm still drawn to a good liturgy, mostly because of the music. It touches something deep inside my original Catholic baby duck imprint.

John R.,

"The ignorant musings of the uniformed on the subject of the Latin Mass boggles the mind."

Could you elaborate and explain?

Candide,

Please re-read the question. I think you are in another debate.

In any language the notion that Jesus died for one's sins is totally ridiculous. He died as a rebel against Rome. Christianity is a hoax.

Thank you dear Holy Father for lifting the restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass. May God bless you! The Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross...Jesus re-presents Himself to the Father for our sins at every Mass. And the traditional Latin Mass represents this "Holy Sacrifice" in a clearer and more distinct manner than the modern "Novus Ordo" Mass.
So, what comes to mind when I reflect on this new directive of the Pope given on 7/7/07?
"And Jesus said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18").

Firstly, Fr. Reese's bias is immediately apparent in his misspelling in his title. The phrase is "ItE Missa Est," and it means "go it is the dismissal." Those are the final words of the traditional Latin mass.

Secondly, his ignorance about who celebrates the Latin mass these days is obvious from his observation that "only a few elderly priests know how to say the old mass properly." The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King are two fraternities of priests that are obedient to the Roman pontiff and dedicated to celebrating and promoting the traditional Latin mass. Most of their priests are under 35 (much younger than Reese himself), and they are attracting more young applicants than their seminaries can accommodate. The same cannot be said of most U.S. dioceses.

My question is if the celebrants and lay faithful dedicated to the Latin mass represent such a negligible minority, as the so-called liberals continue to note, why all the consternation? Why all the fear? Perhaps Reese and his ilk are not so sure of the strength of their majority.

I would venture to say that there are many in the majority who do not have the dedication and devotion to the post-V2 mass that the minority has to the Latin mass. The fear is that the minority is growing, and that they are becoming a force that can no longer be shunned, insulted or ignored.

I am a post Vatican II baby. I have never taken one course in Latin. I attended my first Latin mass about ten years ago. I found an old "St. Joseph Missal" which had illustrations that were a big help. About a year ago I started attending a traditional mass every Sunday. I have had to travel out of my own diocese where our stingy bishop has allowed the Latin mass only once a week in an out-of-the-way cemetery chapel. I have taught myself how to ASSIST at mass by learning most of the prayers by heart and studying the English translation (which is in EVERY Latin missal I have ever seen). Before mass I read the epistle and gospel in English so that I can read the Latin along with the priest during the mass.

Almost all the other Latin mass attendants I know prepare for mass similarly. They are attentive and enthusiastic. One does not need to be constantly mouthing out loud in order to assist at mass. How many people who attend the vernacular mass and read and respond in their own languages can even recall what was read immediately after mass?

Vatican II relegated Latin to its
proper place, a historic "no longer functional" language of the Roman Slave Empire.

The ignorant musings of the uniformed on the subject of the Latin Mass boggles the mind.

Norrie: think that's because, in hearing English words, you're using the left side of your brain (intellect), while in hearing music without meaningful words, you're using the right side of your brain (emotion).

That makes sense. I can be moved to tears by an opera sung in Italian, even though I don't understand what's being sung.

Mary Cunningham:

Creo que la misa debe de ser en el idioma que una la entienda. Que sería, por ejemplo, de los indígenas de la amazonía, que luego de haber aprendido español, se les pida además que adoren a Dios en latín? Me parece que usted debe de tratar de comprender que Jesús no es solo de los europeos.

Muy respetuosamente,
En Cristo,
Anónimo

Just as with the breakup of the Bell Telephone System, John XXIII et al broke up the Catholic Church into the equivalent of Baby Bells. Now, just a with the Baby Bells, the system is gradually reestablishing itself. What is not widely discussed, however, is the matter of all those people who were cast aside in that Second Vatican Council upheaval and who will never return to the Catholic equivalent of the Bell System.

Kneel, stand, sit. Eat meat on Friday and you'll go to Hell. Mortal sins, venial sins. Some Catholic rituals and customs were absurd then and are absurd now, but as long as it all went on in Latin we could safely ignore the idiocy because there was still the unifying factor of the Mass in Latin. But it was still up to the individual to accept or reject what the Pope and bishops interpretation of "the faith." And who cares if Christ did not speak in Latin and that our religious services were held in the language of the Roman Empire. If it were in use for 1500 years even Klingon could be the language of religion and tradition. It was just this linguistic isolation that allowed Catholics to search for their own understanding of God. But in reality there wasn't even linguistic isolation for the majority of Catholics who followed along with the Mass in their prayer books (Missals.) There were no secrets.

With the exception of those who were unwilling or unable to think for themselves, American Catholics have always been "cafeteria Catholics." We let the Pope write his unreadable encyclicals but, as the old joke goes, "He no playa the game, he no make a the rules." Latin or no Latin, the Church ain't the Mafia - even if some of the senior clergy appeared to think that. The Latin traditions endured, but our psychological makeup was as modern then as it was now. And Anti-semitism in the Latin Mass? What a red herring and joke that is. No thinking Catholic then or now believes in any sort of collective blame.

What the Latin Mass - and the Gregorian chant that often accompanied it - represented then, and represents now, is the continuation of a ceremony of beauty, reflection, unity, and non-hostility.

Norrie - agree - I prefer the Mass and Opera in their native languages.

Mary Cunningham - the beatiful sung masses you mention are still sung in Latin. I've never heard them sung in English and I never heard them at all in the Catholic church, only in the Episcopal church.

I had no idea episcopalians knew Latin - and they pronounce it better than most Catholics, who just slurred through it as fast as they could.

Wow,
four almost 40 years you (jesuits) have abused the holy sacrifice of the mass. Now there is a move to restore the dignity of the liturgy, and of course you do not like it. So bad music, that was a good thing, bad theology, that was a good thing, mixed messages about true ancient catholic tradition, that was a good thing, but the mass of the saints, we can't have that. I find it truly amazing that you state that people using the right responses will cause "chaos". I would point out that as an eastern catholic they are the responses the entire eastern world already uses. I wonder why the church in the USA would want to have its own responses. This is the continuing heresy of Americanism.
+

Norrie is right as usual. The Latin Mass was and is very beautiful, and free of some of the more egregious experimentation brought on by Vatican II.

The rest of the statement is problematic at best.

How about let's talk about the music: Does this mean that those training for the music ministry will put aside the faddish music of the 1970s and beyond, and let us sing stuff we know?

In my youth I served as an altarboy and recited my Latin responses without understanding most if any of them. Later, in professional life I traveled all over the world welcoming the Latin mass as a unifying element of my faith wherever I found myself. I do not know what proportion of the Latin mass advocates have actually sat through a mass celebrated in Latin.(I suspect many of them are still under the spell of the splendid funeral of JP II, with all the chants and incense) Give those Latin proponents 10 more years and the movement of "back to tradition" will die a natural death.

In my youth I served as an altarboy and recited my Latin responses without understanding most if any of them. Later, in professional life I traveled all over the world welcoming the Latin mass as a unifying element of my faith wherever I found myself. I do not know what proportion of the Latin mass advocates have actually sat through a mass celebrated in Latin.(I suspect many of them are still under the spell of the splendid funeral of JP II, with all the chants and incense) Give those Latin proponents 10 more years and the movement of "back to tradition" will die a natural death.

lepidopteryx:
Not being Catholic, or even Christian, maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the point of conducting a worship service in a language that few, if any, of the worshippers understand?

I know a few words of German, but if I only ever watched Himmel uber Berlin without the subtitles, all I would know is that it's got something to do with angels and trapeze artists. I would miss the finer points of the story.

**
To answer your question, the churches provide missals that allow you to follow along in the vernacular. The homilies (sermons) are in English or whatever the local language is.

lepidopteryx:
Not being Catholic, or even Christian, maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the point of conducting a worship service in a language that few, if any, of the worshippers understand?

I know a few words of German, but if I only ever watched Himmel uber Berlin without the subtitles, all I would know is that it's got something to do with angels and trapeze artists. I would miss the finer points of the story.

**
To answer your question, the churches provide missals that allow you to follow along in the vernacular.

My wife and I attend a Tridentine mass in Baltimore at least once a month. You'd be surprised at who you see there. It's not the old folks. It's the young folks who flock there. They want the connection to the ancient church that those guitar masses just aren't providing.

Bravo, Pope Benedict!

But, Lepidopterix, if you go to Mass you know the story before you get there - you don't need to understand the words that are being said and sung.

The deepest part of religion is the emotional dimension, and, curiously, the Latin Mass generates more feeling in me than the English.

I think that's because, in hearing English words, you're using the left side of your brain (intellect), while in hearing music without meaningful words, you're using the right side of your brain (emotion).

Dear Jon Meacham and Sally Quinn,

It's fine that you posed this question based on a recent pronouncement of Pope Benedict XVI.

The question would have been of more importance and greater general interest, though, had the pronouncement been the Pope's recent statement that many churches that had imagined they were Christian, in fact aren't.

Not being Catholic, or even Christian, maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the point of conducting a worship service in a language that few, if any, of the worshippers understand?

I know a few words of German, but if I only ever watched Himmel uber Berlin without the subtitles, all I would know is that it's got something to do with angels and trapeze artists. I would miss the finer points of the story.

As a non-Christian antagonistic to the Vatican and all its doctrines, I think those who promote the Latin Mass have the better argument.

It's like opera. Take an opera in a language that you don't understand. You hear an extraordinary aria which is thrilling and uplifting, and inspires you to value your life more fully.

Then, later, you hear the same opera in English and learn that the words are: "I went into the grocery and bought a loaf of bread".

I love to hear a Latin Mass and find the English version disappointing.

A hint to the Vatican: just as you'll attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, you'll catch more converts with Latin than with English.

I think the comments here are interesting in their support for this doctrinal change. I was a practicing and loyal Catholic for 17 years, but lost the habit when I became a feminist and free thinker, although I still respect the church and take comfort in hearing the rosary or going to Mass.
However, I can't support this decision. The church is facing a crisis of membership and support, and by reverting to Latin, I can't help but believe the church will only further alienate members by reciting Mass in a dead language.
I understand some conservative, older members still long for Latin, but there are specific congregations across the world that continue to hold to these traditions, just the same as they forbid birth control and demand at least one son enter the priesthood. How is the church ever going to attract new members when it is determined to hold to archaic traditions? Respect the old, but what the Vatican doesn't recognize is the world has changed and for the church to survive, it must change also. This pope's reasoning here is fundamentally flawed, and frankly, wrong.

While I rejoice in what our Holy Father has done in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum and hope for the fruits he desires from it, I have great doubts that the majority of American bishops will be any more generous or enthusiastic about his effort than they were for Pope John Paul II's indult Quattuor Abhinc Annos and motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. Already we have the staff of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy opining that the NEW lectionary in English may be substituted for the Latin readings of the 1962 Roman Missal when the official Latin text of the motu proprio is speaking of the readings in that missal being offered in the vernacular in a version to be submitted for the Holy See's recognitio.

Consider how the Cardinal Archbishop of Los Angeles "implemented" the directives of the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum which sought to address liturgical abuses that have developed and remain in the ordinary use of the Roman Rite. Enough said.

The Holy Father hopes that the extraordinary use, the 1962 Missal, will help in reforming the reform, in returning some order, dignity, beauty, and sense of the sacred to the worship of God under the 1970 Missal. I fear it is more likely that liturgists and some bishops will try to impose the deformations (the Holy Father's phrasing) of the last forty years on the 1962 Missal all over again.

Many traditional Catholics had hoped and prayed for the creation of a separate universal administration for the pre-conciliar liturgical rites as was granted in one diocese in Brazil already.

Only time will tell if Pope Benedict has chosen the right approach.

While I rejoice in what our Holy Father has done in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum and hope for the fruits he desires from it, I have great doubts that the majority of American bishops will be any more generous or enthusiastic about his effort than they were for Pope John Paul II's indult Quattuor Abhinc Annos and motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta. Already we have the staff of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy opining that the NEW lectionary in English may be substituted for the Latin readings of the 1962 Roman Missal when the official Latin text of the motu proprio is speaking of the readings in that missal being offered in the vernacular in a version to be submitted for the Holy See's recognitio.

Consider how the Cardinal Archbishop of Los Angeles "implemented" the directives of the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum which sought to address liturgical abuses that have developed and remain in the ordinary use of the Roman Rite. Enough said.

The Holy Father hopes that the extraordinary use, the 1962 Missal, will help in reforming the reform, in returning some order, dignity, beauty, and sense of the sacred to the worship of God under the 1970 Missal. I fear it is more likely that liturgists and some bishops will try to impose the deformations (the Holy Father's phrasing) of the last forty years on the 1962 Missal all over again.

Many traditional Catholics had hoped and prayed for the creation of a separate universal administration for the pre-conciliar liturgical rites as was granted in one diocese in Brazil already.

Only time will tell if Pope Benedict has chosen the right approach.

Thanks for such a detailed explanation of what the Pope's actions really are about. Its sounds like the Pope wants decision making at the lowest level within the organization, the pastor. This is additional responsibility that many pastor may not want. The pastors that grab hold of this additional decision making and want it will probably be the ones who are growing the church. Why should we pity them when they are probably in the best position to make the decision on this issue and the Pope is giving them the required authority? Or am I missing something?

Steve Stojec
Thanks for the analysis. I attended a parish years ago that almost had to close because of arguments about which half of the congregation got to use the big sanctuary for their mass, and which half had to meet in the downstairs chapel. The Spanish mass drew a bigger crowd, but the English speakers raised more money. The pastor (a nice Irish-American boy who spoke fluent Spanish) lost a lot of hair over it. Maybe a Latin mass would have helped the two groups work together....

Father,

There's so much here to address, I think a point by point rebuttal would be wasted. One area I feel compelled to address, however, is your disdain for the significance of Latin - a language which I myself do not have any training in.

I think that it's appropriate to ask if you have ever read Veterum Sapientiae, the Apostolic Constitution by Bl. John XXIII, who himself convoked the Second Vatican Council. I'll reiterate just a few of the points made by the late pontiff of blessed memory:

* * *

Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin's formal structure. Its "concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity" makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.

[snip]

[The Apostolic See]...further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the "knowledge and use of this language," so intimately bound up with the Church's life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons." 6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indi cated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Churchs nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time . . of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non vernacular."

[snip]

...the Church's language must be not only universal but also immutable. Modern languages are liable to change, and no single one of them is superior to the others in authority. Thus if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths, varied as they are, would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would, moreover, be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.

But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. it has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use. Certain Latin words, it is true, acquired new meanings as Christian teaching developed and needed to be explained and defended, but these new meanings have long since become accepted and firmly established.

[snip]

...the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

In addition, the Latin language "can be called truly catholic."0 It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed "a treasure . . . of incomparable worth." (11). It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Churchs teaching.2 It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.

[snip]

The employment of Latin has recently been contested in many quarters, and many are asking what the mind of the Apostolic See is in this matter. We have therefore decided to issue the timely directives contained in this document, so as to ensure that the ancient and uninterrupted use of Latin be maintained and, where necessary, restored...

[snip - and here's the clincher]

With the foregoing considerations in mind, to which We have given careful thought, We now, in the full consciousness of Our Office and in virtue of Our authority, decree and command the following...

1.Bishops and superiors-general of religious orders shall take pains to ensure that in their seminaries and in their schools where adolescents are trained for the priesthood, all shall studiously observe the Apostolic Sees decision in this matter and obey these Our prescriptions most carefully.

2.In the exercise of their paternal care they shall be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, eager for revolutionary changes, writes against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy Sees will in this regard or interprets it falsely.

* * *

So you see, Father, that Pope John XXIII was concerned about articles like this, written by those "eager for revolutionary changes" who would write "against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy Sees will in this regard or interprets it falsely."

Perhaps this is worthy of your consideration?

It may also bear consideration that the vast majority of our Catholic saints, many of whom were simple and did not have access to the educational opportunities that modern Catholics do, were able to find sufficient grace through the Latin Mass to be not only sanctified but raised to the altar.

I don't know Latin, but I'm pretty sure I can handle this. I think others can too.

You said, "The challenge is to discern what is at the core of this tradition and what is peripheral." Is that really the case?

Did the church suffered a few setbacks when the Latin Mass was replaced by English and for the first time people understood what was being said, the magic words and phrases? I think so. More than one former Catholic has told me as much. Is this a case of reversing the motion, get those who mumbled unknown words sure they had magic powers back into the fold?

What is at the core of the mass? Have you seen that picture of Amenophis IV holding "broken bread" up to here heavenly father at http://www.hoax-buster.org That's not the source of the "Last Supper" story is it?

Amen believed, had undying faith her father was the sun. The monstrance has a striking resemblance to the sun doesn't it? Where did all that gold to make sacred articles like the monstrance, chalices, tabernacles and so on come from anyhow? Would the loving, caring, self sacrificing Jesus approve?

I guess I'm not really Catholic. Normally I read in the press about some Vatican statement that appears outrageous and chauvinistic on its face. Then, upon further examination, the reasoning and intent behind the statement turn out to be -- well -- reasonable. This latest sounds like nonsense. I guess I can be either a red-blooded, anti-clerical, suspicious of authority American or a Catholic. The former is in my bones, so I'll be giving up the latter.

Dear Fr Reese,

Somehow,I get the idea you don't much like this phenomenon. Well, you're in good company: neither does Rev Susan Thistelwaite or Susan Jacoby nor I bet will Bishop Spong or Prof Crossan. I won't even have to read their pieces. Funily enough, Mr Wallis (?) approves, as does--it seems--the overwhelming majority of the Catholic laity.

Well, I approve also. For the following reasons:

Firstly: I live in a city (London), where Catholics are from many different countries with varying expertise in English. My parish, a poor one, is a polyglot of nationalities: West African, Polish & Lithuanian, French plus the descendants of the Irish who flocked into the East End to build the docks and stayed to become Cockneys and West Indians who came later..The laity in our church are wildly in favour of more Latin & IMO Latin in the most sacred parts of the Mass would unite us more than divide.

Secondly: Latin has been reintroduced in state schools (it has always been present in public schools) and 'mirabile dictu' has proved surprisingly popular. So it seems the appetite is there. Further, there is still a good classics tradition in some British universities, so that particular skill set has not yet been lost.

Thirdly: Parts of the Mass are, even today, known by their foreign words: the Credo, the Kyrie (Greek I know), Agnus Dei--which is usually sung.

Finally, one of Catholicism's gift to the world,those towering examples of western civilization the great sung masses--the 2 Mozarts, the Bach in B minor, the Verdi & Faure Requiems--are in Latin. To cut them off from the wellspring of their language, to remove all understanding of Latin from the Catholic laity, seems a terrible desecration, a vandalism reminiscent of Cromwell and the Levellers.

I hope you and your parishoners can adjust to the new availability of Latin believing, as I do, this is for the good I remain

Yours sincerely,

Mary Cunningham
London