Dirty Harry for President

Ahh, Thomas, The New Moses, the Anointed One, Baum makes another appearance. If were not for Thomas, we would not know how to interpret the NT.

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

On your post of 11-9-2007 at 11:41 PM you wrote, "If it were not for Pontius Pilate," and "If it were not for Paul's epistles" and "And if it were not for Constantine", you know what, if you add up enough "if not for's" we wouldn't even be reading these posts because, "IF NOT FOR GOD'S CREATION, WE WOULD NOT BE HERE".

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So your idea is to discourage abortion but for it to be available? Well, that's what I, and most other people argue as well. I wouldn't want a woman I was with to have an abortion, but ultimately it is her choice. I just don't think that women need a man jumping down their throat about murder when they are trying to make a decision. There is a thing called tact - apparently only atheists, pagans, and some Eastern religions allow you to be capable of it.

wiccan:

So Rich-

Would you allow a woman who had been raped to have an abortion?"

Wiccan, I think you need to go back and read my posts if you are going to jump in on the subject. I have stated here and elsewhere that I would not be in favor for overturning roe v wade as it stands now. I am in favor of us as a country doing more to make that law just another unnecessary law. As far as the .000001% that is rape, the law stands as is so it would be allowed. The argument about the number that would involve rape though is bogus anyhow. The extremes always toss in the extremes to rationalize their viewpoint. With your exception for rape or incest or life of mother I would venture to say the people then opposed to abortion would be on the majority side.

wiccan:

So Rich-

Would you allow a woman who had been raped to have an abortion?"

Wiccan, I think you need to go back and read my posts if you are going to jump in on the subject. I have stated here and elsewhere that I would not be in favor for overturning roe v wade as it stands now. I am in favor of us as a country doing more to make that law just another unnecessary law. As far as the .000001% that is rape, the law stands as is so it would be allowed. The argument about the number that would involve rape though is bogus anyhow. The extremes always toss in the extremes to rationalize their viewpoint. With your exception for rape or incest or life of mother I would venture to say the people then opposed to abortion would be on the majority side.

Luke:

Rich, you aren't going to win. I think you missed the point of your own statement about "what needed to be done". Sure it is awful that a child be aborted because the mother was raped, but you can only speak from your perspective. I acknowledge that I haven't the foggiest clue what it is like to have an abortion, or be faced with that decision (and neither do you, at least considering you have no womb). That is why I don't speak out - because my opinion means nothing to the person who must decide."

That is the age old b.s. there Luke. Can't decide on anything because you have no experience on the subject. With that mentality I would venture to say most of us could talk on very little subjects. In fact this whole argument about torture would consist of maybe no one in here right now. I know I am not going to win against people that have no moral perspective, they simply apply morality when it fits. That is the perfect example for all these new found bible thumpers that quote the bible when they like it but otherwise have no use for it.

Luke:

Rich, you aren't going to win. I think you missed the point of your own statement about "what needed to be done". Sure it is awful that a child be aborted because the mother was raped, but you can only speak from your perspective. I acknowledge that I haven't the foggiest clue what it is like to have an abortion, or be faced with that decision (and neither do you, at least considering you have no womb). That is why I don't speak out - because my opinion means nothing to the person who must decide."

That is the age old b.s. there Luke. Can't decide on anything because you have no experience on the subject. With that mentality I would venture to say most of us could talk on very little subjects. In fact this whole argument about torture would consist of maybe no one in here right now. I know I am not going to win against people that have no moral perspective, they simply apply morality when it fits. That is the perfect example for all these new found bible thumpers that quote the bible when they like it but otherwise have no use for it.

I'm stunned,Thomas Reese, S.J. (you Jesuits were always the bright child)

You aren't kidding us, RU?

The correct answer is:

TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

(of course that reduces much of the bible to the trash that it is. Thank the "real" god for the Greeks!)

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

I think the Bible is a weak argument for anything - unless you eliminate everything but the life of Jesus in the Bible, you have a religion of servitude and destruction.

I agree with the point made in an earlier post that the story of Job in the Bible shows, among other failures in logic and history, that it also fails when it comes to morality and ethics when it comes to the picture of the Xian God. The argument against torture (or slavery, animal sacrifice,... or many other repulsive practices) can not be based on the Bible.

Use of Torture? I say yes but ...... Torture, like the death penalty, should be used *only in the rarest and most exceptional cases* (paragraphs 2263-2267 of the Catholic catechism pertain) and in accordance with the principle of double effect. (Generally, when the harm done to one individual prevents a greater harm done to overall general society. The principle of double effect has its origins in the thoughts/musings of St. Augustine. Paragraph 2266 of the catechism pertains).

Torture should only be assigned on a case by case basis and never generically or vaguely. (Example: "...... torture all terrorists.")

Only POTUS should be able to authorize torture on a case by case basis. By federal law, that authority could never be delegated.

By federal law, POTUS would be required to authorize torture *in writing* and not just verbally.

Bottom line: Look first *NOT* to torture but keep the option on the table. (Same as we do with nuclear weapons ..... we look first NOT to use them but the option is on the table).

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

And if there were no forgery called the Donation of Constatine there would be less of a Catholic Church. A forgery supposedly by Constatine that seded to the Church the lands that became the Vatican states....in the 15th century they "discovered" it could not possibly be real. But of course they did not give the lands back either, or the billions that the church has reaped.

In 1440 an Italian humanist Lorenzo Valla wrote a book listing the reasons why the document had to be a forgery...the book was banned.

Without the False Donation the church and maybe Christianity would have faded out. Not a bad little heist...

terra

Rich:

Show me where I said one thong that indicated hate for you or anyone else.
If you were paying attentin, you would recall that I told you in a previous post that I hate no one - hating someone gives that person power over you, and I am not willing to give anyone that kind of power over me.
I stated what I imagined your stance on abortion for rape-induced pregnacies would be, based on my reading of your previous posts. Please correct me if I have guessed wrong.

If you had been paying attention, you would also knw by now that I am a woman, so I will thank you to stop calling me buddy.

Moderate,

If it were not for Pontius Pilate, there would be no Christianity as we know it today as PP could just as easily sent him off to the salt mines.

If it were not for Paul's epistles, preaching, Gentile money and raising Jesus' ways and sayings from the dead, Jesus would have simply been one of many dead and forgotten Jewish radicals.

And if it were not for Constantine (and the Gentile tax base), Jesus would have simply been one of many dead and forgotten Jewish radicals.

Dear Mike,

"Science and mathematics has so much to teach us about the nature of the universe and life if we are brave and rigorous enough to follow where it leads."

So right. The Universe presents evidence for a moment of Creation. More than that, it presents evidence for purposeful Creation.

"Torture was wrong when done by the Romans, by the Inquisition, by Queen Elizabeth, by Hitler, by Stalin and by Mao. This is not the company we wish to keep."

Thank you Father Reese. Jesus chose to be tortured rather than set out on a violent Jihad against the Romans. If he had been weak and gone to war, we would not even know his name, because he would have been only one among so many. He would have become a brother to Barbabas, who is known to us only because of his tangential and momentary contact with Christ.

to Ogden, Utah: Please note that in actuality, George Bush was asked who he 'identified' with, not who had influenced him. Time has shown that distinction to be germane.

to Ogden, Utah: Please note that in actuality, George Bush was asked who he 'identified' with, not who had influenced him. Time has shown that distinction to be germane.

to Ogden, Utah: Please note that in actuality, George Bush was asked who he 'identified' with, not who had influenced him. Time has shown that distinction to be germane.

to Ogden, Utah: Please note that in actuality, George Bush was asked who he 'identified' with, not who had influenced him. Time has shown that distinction to be germane.

to Ogden, Utah: Please note that in actuality, George Bush was asked who he 'identified' with, not who had influenced him. Time has shown that distinction to be germane.

to OGDEN, Utah: actually, what George Bush said was in answer to "who do you *identify* with?" It astonished me then as it does now, how people hear what they want or expect to hear.

Rich, you aren't going to win. I think you missed the point of your own statement about "what needed to be done". Sure it is awful that a child be aborted because the mother was raped, but you can only speak from your perspective. I acknowledge that I haven't the foggiest clue what it is like to have an abortion, or be faced with that decision (and neither do you, at least considering you have no womb). That is why I don't speak out - because my opinion means nothing to the person who must decide.

So Rich-

Would you allow a woman who had been raped to have an abortion?

lepidopteryx said:

Did I say that there had been 40 million rape-induced pregnancies since Roe v Wade? But there are those (and I would be willing to bet that you are one of them) who would not want to allow abortion of a rape-induced pregnancy"

Now this is the kind of hate I expect from the left. I am glad you did not disappoint me there lepido. Keep up the good posting buddy. Keep the hate flowing, it makes the world go round.

Rich:
Stop putting words in my mouth. I won't swallow for you.

"Ok, then I agree. Dunking should be safe, rare and legal. Too funny how the left can find outrage at dunking but all too happy with abortion."

I repeat - it goes far beyond "dunking." Keep calling it that, and then call me disingenuous - scuse me while I laugh until I have to pee.

"Too happy to let the innocent unborn child be tortured by being flipped over and having their brains sucked out but yet finds trouble with making some muslim slip on some panties or spend some time under running water."

I never said I was happy about abortion. And the "innocent child being flipped over and having their brains sucked out" is a reference to late-term abortions, which are only legal when continuing the pregnancy endangers the life or health of the mother. They're not done on demand.
And again, you trivialize procedures such as waterboarding by trying to equate them with taking a shower or getting caught in the rain. And you accuse me of rationalization. Scuse me - have to pee again.

"Talk about moral bankruptcy. Did you actually read what you wrote? Also got to love that last line of defense for the left on abortion, the old rape defense. Now correct me if I am wrong but you think there have been about what 40million or so cases of rape that have caused abortions since roe v wade?"

Did I say that there had been 40 million rape-induced pregnancies since Roe v Wade? But there are those (and I would be willing to bet that you are one of them) who would not want to allow abortion of a rape-induced pregnancy.

"Talk about trying to find cover for what is clearly wrong but no, dunking is wrong."

Dunking is not wrong. Torture is.

Well Luke, I think I was clear about what I felt needed done but I can say it again. It is about having a concerted effort at all levels to council other options, to try and instill the value of life and the responsibility that involves these choices. We have choices and responsibility for said choices and right now it would appear there are no consequences. Simply turning the other way is not an option. I really can not see where we all can not agree these things need to brought down to as little needed as possible but instead we fight at extremes.

"As far as most things go is about personal responsibility. That is something that has been lost in this country because we are now taught that nothing is our fault, it is all someone else's fault. Hey you got a problem with your marriage, don't try to fix it just get a divorce."

And who has the highest divorce rate in the country? Why, the fundamentalist Xians.

And who has the lowest divorce rate in the country? Why, the atheists.

And, the divorce rate in the USA hit its peak in 1981 and has now declined back to its 1970 level.

Your point?

Again, a discussion has turned into ranting. How about some verifiable facts? Or arguments that are not circular? Or claims that be tested (both positive and negative) ?

First of all, I am not your buddy. Second of all, I feel exactly the same way. Abortion is a matter of personal responsibility and I personally would never have one. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would hope there is another way other than abortion. If the woman does not consider it so, what can I do to stop her? So the best laws are the laws not used? What does that mean? Ending the need for abortion? Abortion is sometimes a matter of need (in the case of the mother's life), and many times not a need but based on a mother's inability to care for the child. You still haven't answered what your solution is, just insulted others for their assumption of your stand (which you aren't clarifying anyway - since no one can tell what your point is, maybe you aren't very good at conveying it...ever consider that?) Last time I checked, the heart is an organ that pumps blood, and the spirit no one can locate, so why don't you say appeal to someone's conscience, which at least seems reasonable. However, you are correct, law is not the answer. You can't enforce morality that way, you can only encourage it. Ofcourse, it's the parents of today that are the ones that caused virtue to be put on the back burner. They were too busy reliving their youth and putting their kids in front of TVs. We are more alike in thought than you assume, Rich.

TO ALEX:

ON YOUR POST OF 11-8-2007 AT 4:35 PM you wrote, "Christ was not a pacifist, he was also not us. Christ is god. Whether you believe in Christ or not, god will judge, god will cast those he finds unworthy into hell w/gnashing of teeth".

First off, Jesus is His Name, Christ is a title. Jesus did become one of us, as it says He emptied Himself to become one of us. There is no way that He could have grown in Goodness and Grace if He hadn't emptied Himself to become one of us. As a matter of fact, Jesus is the only human being that chose to become a human being.

Second, Yes, Jesus is God-Incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity, He was True Man and True God, just like we are 100% from our mom and 100% from our dad, same with Jesus. Actually, Jesus did not become the Son of God until He became the Son of Man and that happened when Mary gave her consent, "Let it be done unto me according to Thy Will", before that He was the Second Person of the Trinity of God, a Trinity of One God, Pure Love.

Third, God does not cast people into hell, hell is not some kind of monolithic place where God sends you, you build it yourself, that is why Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and He also said, "The measure that you judge with, will be the measure that you are judged with", He wasn't kidding, it is something to think about, don't you think?

You also wrote, "So before we start cherry picking the bible to back our views (as Thomas has) lets at least be accurate on the theological backing of what we paint god to be."

I have met God and God is a Trinity and God is Love, Pure Love. Also God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and it will come to Fruition, it is referred to as the mysterious Plan of God. Jesus also said, "God has revealed to the little ones the mysteries of the Kingdom". As it says, "It is God's Will that all be saved", maybe it would be godly to pray for God's Will rather than our own or what we think His Will is.

Something to think about, it says that Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world, so Jesus Himself went to the uttermost depths of hell and also suffered spiritual death for all of us. If anyone ponders the preceding sentence than they should see that the cross wasn't just the physical, that a lot people seem to think, but much more, don't you think?

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So Hank, there are things we know and things we don't know and the things we know make us fear what we don't know but really we should fear what we know and not think about what don't know because in the end it is what we know that always gets us not what we don't. Is there a universal truth in there somewhere that applies to Dirty Harry, the Godfather and politics as well. It is not what you do that causes great pain but merely covering up what you have done or what you have been thought to have done that always get you in the end.

Luke:

No, but a Christian was the Oklahoma City bomber. Every abortion clinic attack was from a Christian. Gay people are murdered by Christians. As to the ridiculous claim that the left ignores responsiblity and blames it on others - what about the Religious Right that blames their fraudulent and sexual activities on Satan? Do you think abortion is easy? It's just, "whoops, slipped up, let's kill it...", like it's a pet hamster? What do you plan to do with the babies that are born? WHO IS GOING TO CARE FOR THEM? The government? Or do they have a right to be born and not to live? Care for them as long as they are innocent and then throw them in jail? Explain yourself. You aren't going to set me right. Right-wingers have destroyed this country and everything it stands for in the last 8 years. Why should we trust you? Are you stupid enough to believe that the only reason people get divorces is because they don't feel like being married? What fantasy world do you live in? Of course there are going to be people who abuse the right to abortion and the institution of marriage, but divorce and abortion do have a purpose. To say that a person has no right to them is to say that women should not have rights. Your argument is one of convenience and not conviction. I was never taught that "nothing is my fault". That's a stupid statement you obviously picked up from Rush Limbaugh. I was taught that virtue and principles are by far the most important things, and then I learned myself that I didn't need God to have them. I respect you for not citing God in your defense, but I am disappointed that you see from such a narrow scope"

Please point out where I said abortions should be outlawed? I would like to read that post too. My argument is one of conviction of convenience, unlike yours. It is an argument about responsibility. Everything in this world is not throw away. Since we can see what happens when you assume I will enlighten you about my position on abortion. I believe the best laws are the laws not used. I do not favor overturning roe v. wade but I find nothing wrong with a president or for that matter health officials and elected officials standing on the bully pulpit and trying to change the hearts and minds of people and thus ending the need for abortions. I think laws about moral issues are not the answer. You need to appeal to peoples hearts and souls. Make the laws irrelevant. That is the answer. Now you know where I stand and it is nowhere near where you assumed. That is what happens when you assume buddy.

Studying modern entertainment culture, both Dirty Harry and Godfather series owe their success to America's perception of federal authorities. Harry was a hero to the anti-establishment in a period whereby political corruption was overly apparent to mainstream Americans. Same sort of argument theorized that The Godfather series owed its success to public evidence that "The Good Guys" really were not so good. Same theory could suggest yearly successes of the Soprano series as well.

Studying modern culture it seems that "The Good Guys" have committed crimes against humanity such as torture. And since 1999, quite a few people have been feeding the mass populus fear-n-smear end of world scenarios equated to false prophecies at the beginning of a new century. Creating mass hysteria is a function of terrorism so once again, how good are the good guys when third world war scenarios scare our own citizens driving up oil prices causing poverty to increase on a global scale.

Some of us have been studying the bigger picture as the end of a dark age or a period of false enlightenment that exploited religious entities for policital gain. That the political gains equated to money and power to be gained by a few causing many further hardship, suffering and poverty. And so, once again the value of Truth as being a universal test for religious authority comes into play. That the whole truth and nothing but the truth is the bottom-line for those seeking James the Justice.

No, but a Christian was the Oklahoma City bomber. Every abortion clinic attack was from a Christian. Gay people are murdered by Christians. As to the ridiculous claim that the left ignores responsiblity and blames it on others - what about the Religious Right that blames their fraudulent and sexual activities on Satan? Do you think abortion is easy? It's just, "whoops, slipped up, let's kill it...", like it's a pet hamster? What do you plan to do with the babies that are born? WHO IS GOING TO CARE FOR THEM? The government? Or do they have a right to be born and not to live? Care for them as long as they are innocent and then throw them in jail? Explain yourself. You aren't going to set me right. Right-wingers have destroyed this country and everything it stands for in the last 8 years. Why should we trust you? Are you stupid enough to believe that the only reason people get divorces is because they don't feel like being married? What fantasy world do you live in? Of course there are going to be people who abuse the right to abortion and the institution of marriage, but divorce and abortion do have a purpose. To say that a person has no right to them is to say that women should not have rights. Your argument is one of convenience and not conviction. I was never taught that "nothing is my fault". That's a stupid statement you obviously picked up from Rush Limbaugh. I was taught that virtue and principles are by far the most important things, and then I learned myself that I didn't need God to have them. I respect you for not citing God in your defense, but I am disappointed that you see from such a narrow scope.

Fr Reese exhibits the best side of Catholic ethics. At its best the Catholic Church has had a strong concern for social justice, for the poor, and against capital punishment and torture.

It is a strong strain in the church, and to be applauded when it is articulated, as it is here.

You may know that I am a Godless Atheist rather than a Catholic apologist. In fact I regularly criticize the Mother Church and any other when I feel the need.

Thank you, Father Reese.

Unlike many who believe that
:\"the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth"

you show a consistently humane posture.

Dang I did it again, that was me Luke. Just in case you were thinking I was trying to hike from you. That would never happen.

Luke:

What's even more interesting is that Rich offers no solution for the child after it is born. Do you plan to feed them yourself? You are logically bankrupt, so please do us a favor and don't vote. So why is torture just for Muslims? If there is a Christian terrorist, can we do the same? Jewish terrorist? What if a Christian plans on blowing up an abortion clinic? Can we torture them to find the names of others who are in on it? Ofcourse you would never allow that - after all, Christians don't commit crimes. Rape happens, but you can't imagine that because it's too incovenient for you. It doesn't prove your point, so you ignore it. I agree that abortion shouldn't happen, but it does. You aren't going to stop it. It's either get it in a hospital or get it in an alley, but it is incovenient for you to THINK. Your comparison between abortion and torture is weak at best."

Yes and there are speeders too, so just raise the speed limit. As far as most things go is about personal responsibility. That is something that has been lost in this country because we are now taught that nothing is our fault, it is all someone else's fault. Hey you got a problem with your marriage, don't try to fix it just get a divorce. Unwanted pregnancy don't accept that child or offer it up for adoption just abort it. After all it is not your fault. By golly don't ever thing of those consequences before you get pregnant. I think my comparison hits the nerve that you can't cover up with your weak arguments. You find it so evil to dunk someone but think just aborting a child because you are not ready or do not want it perfectly ok. The left always ignores responsibility, always blames someone else. Maybe you can right that ship in your own mind in some twisted way but it does not make it right. Keep lying to yourself and thinking all will be well. I will keep trying to set you right. Keep using that rape argument to cover the 40 million give or take abortions that have occurred since roe v wade. Lastly when we start getting blown up by Christians or Jews or whatever we can dunk them too. Last time I checked though none of them were flying planes into the towers, were they?

What's even more interesting is that Rich offers no solution for the child after it is born. Do you plan to feed them yourself? You are logically bankrupt, so please do us a favor and don't vote. So why is torture just for Muslims? If there is a Christian terrorist, can we do the same? Jewish terrorist? What if a Christian plans on blowing up an abortion clinic? Can we torture them to find the names of others who are in on it? Ofcourse you would never allow that - after all, Christians don't commit crimes. Rape happens, but you can't imagine that because it's too incovenient for you. It doesn't prove your point, so you ignore it. I agree that abortion shouldn't happen, but it does. You aren't going to stop it. It's either get it in a hospital or get it in an alley, but it is incovenient for you to THINK. Your comparison between abortion and torture is weak at best.

Annon writes:When God allows Satan to torture Job (with techniques for worse than water boarding), was that moral, why is that OK?

-interesting point

Rev. Reese, like so many other members of the official panel, just can not stay on subject. He is quick to say torture is wrong when practiced by man, even pointing out that torture by the Inquisition was wrong. Fine. But lets consider something closer to the purpose and subject of this blog:

Is torture wrong when practiced by God?

When God allows Satan to torture Job (with techniques for worse than water boarding), was that moral, why is that OK?

Of course God did not do the torturing Himself, but *allowed* his agent, one of his creations, to do the dirty work, in order for God to work his will with poor old Job. God did put some limits on Satan as to how far he could go in torturing Job --- how generous!

There are other examples of God using torture (implicitly or explicitly) in the Bible --- but this is a good starter for Rev. Reese to apply his Jesuit Rube Goldberg pretzel logic to "explain" how/why its OK for him to worship a deity that condones the Book of Job torture techniques (among other hideous practices God uses and/or permits in the Bible --- e.g. slavery, leprosy, etc...).

lepidopteryx:

Rich:

First of all, waterboarding is not the same thing as what is commonly done at most swimming pools. I've spent a lot of time swimming, and not once have I been tied to an inclined plane with a hood over my head and had the contents of the pool slowly poured into my lungs. So let's stop calling it "dunking" shall we? Dunking is for coffee and biscotti.

Since you are so stuck on the subject of abortion, I'll give you my opinion. I think that it's a sin to bring children into the world if you don't want them or can't support them. I think that anyone who is sexually active and does not want children should take precautions not to conceive. However, I am also aware that such precautions, even when perfectly executed, sometimes fail. Been there. I don't think a woman should be legally obligated to give birth to a child she doesn't want and/or can't support. And please don't trot out the adoption canard - when every shild already in the foster care system has been adopted into a loving, nurturing home, you can talk to me about adoption. Right now, there are more kids who need parents than there are adults who want to be parents.
I'm also aware that sometimes women who aren't on any sort of contraceptive because they aren't sexually active are raped, resulting in their becoming pregnant. I don't think a woman should be legally obligated to carry a pregnacy that results from rape.
I'm also aware that sometimes teenagers with raging hormones get carried away and have spur-of-the-moment unprotected sex. I don't think we need more teenage parents.
I am also aware that sometimes people who want children have pregnancies that go wrong - fetuses develop with parts of their skulls missing, or brains that don't develop past the brainstem - that can't survive outside the uterus. It happened to a friend of mine. Her OB recommended aborting when they discovered that the fetus was anecephalic. She consulted her priest who told her that it would be murder. So this woman carried a baby with half a skull to term, gave birth to it,and and soon after the cord was cut, it's incomplete autonomic nervous system forgot how to breathe. What exactly did that accomplish?

I think abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.
I think we need more insurance companies that cover contraceptives. There are some that cover Viagra, but not OrthoCept. Explain the logic there. I think we I think we need parents who will talk openly and honestly with their sons and daughters about sex and the possible unpleasant consequences - that means more depth than "Don't have sex because it will make baby Jesus cry." or the message I got from my Baptist mom "Sex is something a woman has to put up with if she wants children, but it's a sin to enjoy it." And since so many parents won't educate their kids regarding their own bodies and how they work, it falls to the schools. Thank the gods sex education is better now than it was when I was in school. I remember having to get my mom to sign a permission slip for me to join the other girls in the school in the library to watch an animated film about menstruation that had worse production values and less factual information than "Reefer Madness" and having no idea when it was over that it had connection with sexuality or pregancy."

Ok, then I agree. Dunking should be safe, rare and legal. Too funny how the left can find outrage at dunking but all too happy with abortion. Too happy to let the innocent unborn child be tortured by being flipped over and having their brains sucked out but yet finds trouble with making some muslim slip on some panties or spend some time under running water. Talk about moral bankruptcy. Did you actually read what you wrote? Also got to love that last line of defense for the left on abortion, the old rape defense. Now correct me if I am wrong but you think there have been about what 40million or so cases of rape that have caused abortions since roe v wade? Talk about trying to find cover for what is clearly wrong but no, dunking is wrong.

Rich:

First of all, waterboarding is not the same thing as what is commonly done at most swimming pools. I've spent a lot of time swimming, and not once have I been tied to an inclined plane with a hood over my head and had the contents of the pool slowly poured into my lungs. So let's stop calling it "dunking" shall we? Dunking is for coffee and biscotti.

Since you are so stuck on the subject of abortion, I'll give you my opinion. I think that it's a sin to bring children into the world if you don't want them or can't support them. I think that anyone who is sexually active and does not want children should take precautions not to conceive. However, I am also aware that such precautions, even when perfectly executed, sometimes fail. Been there. I don't think a woman should be legally obligated to give birth to a child she doesn't want and/or can't support. And please don't trot out the adoption canard - when every shild already in the foster care system has been adopted into a loving, nurturing home, you can talk to me about adoption. Right now, there are more kids who need parents than there are adults who want to be parents.
I'm also aware that sometimes women who aren't on any sort of contraceptive because they aren't sexually active are raped, resulting in their becoming pregnant. I don't think a woman should be legally obligated to carry a pregnacy that results from rape.
I'm also aware that sometimes teenagers with raging hormones get carried away and have spur-of-the-moment unprotected sex. I don't think we need more teenage parents.
I am also aware that sometimes people who want children have pregnancies that go wrong - fetuses develop with parts of their skulls missing, or brains that don't develop past the brainstem - that can't survive outside the uterus. It happened to a friend of mine. Her OB recommended aborting when they discovered that the fetus was anecephalic. She consulted her priest who told her that it would be murder. So this woman carried a baby with half a skull to term, gave birth to it,and and soon after the cord was cut, it's incomplete autonomic nervous system forgot how to breathe. What exactly did that accomplish?

I think abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.
I think we need more insurance companies that cover contraceptives. There are some that cover Viagra, but not OrthoCept. Explain the logic there. I think we I think we need parents who will talk openly and honestly with their sons and daughters about sex and the possible unpleasant consequences - that means more depth than "Don't have sex because it will make baby Jesus cry." or the message I got from my Baptist mom "Sex is something a woman has to put up with if she wants children, but it's a sin to enjoy it." And since so many parents won't educate their kids regarding their own bodies and how they work, it falls to the schools. Thank the gods sex education is better now than it was when I was in school. I remember having to get my mom to sign a permission slip for me to join the other girls in the school in the library to watch an animated film about menstruation that had worse production values and less factual information than "Reefer Madness" and having no idea when it was over that it had connection with sexuality or pregancy.

The biggest difference between man and God is that man exists and God...well, we write about him/her.

Very well put; I can only hope people will listen.

lepidopteryx:

Rich:

If you will look at other posts of mine on this and other threads, you will see that I have actually addressed the fact that even if torture were not abhorrent on its face (which it is), it would still be a bad idea, since information gained that way is of dubious reliability. A person in pain will say whatever they think you want to hear just to make the pain stop. Sinced it's both immoral and unreliable, why engage in it? It's a waste of time and energy.

No need to fear for my husband, daughter, or any of the various and sundry teenagers that drift in and out of my home - I'm not a violent person. And I hate no one - hatred of another person gives that person power over you, and I'm not willing to allow anyone to have that kind of power over me.

I just can't for the life of me figure out how you keep bringing the topic of abortion into the idea of war crimes. And yet you seem to be fixated on the idea that the two are equivalent, so I was simply wondering if perhaps you had a touch of OCD"

Well then just answer the question on abortion. If you can't gleam the relationship between the two that is ok others might. I am sure you don't mind stomping out innocent life. Just a hunch but I could be wrong. Answer the question. Since you have no idea what info they have or haven't now or in the past it would be impossible for you to know what works and does not but I guess you have been in the cell when they took away the quran or made them wear panties or fed them pork or dunked them. If questioning or harsh questioning did not work heck then we just should not take prisoners.

E Favorite:

Rich - we know your stand on abortion.

What's your stand on torture?"

Well I think it is only fair to ask the question about abortion when we have all these found the Lord again Christians in here proclaiming the word. You can tell us E, where do you stand. Now as to your question if you consider dunking torture well then count me in favor of it. If dunking is the worst you can find and claim as torture your argument is pure torturous then. I love how the left cries torture but then the best they can find as an example is something that is done on a daily basis at most pools. Now maybe there are other things we can do like taking away their quran's or cutting the cable or feeding them pork or for the really bad ones make them pet a dog or wear ladies underwear. Yea that is all real torture there buddy.

viejo's stance is that torture works.

we are the torturers.
I thought Mr. Bush said we weren't?

this isn't about honesty any more is it?

I will never listen to Christian again.

herz writes:"So when we torture someone--anyone--we are torturing Jesus."

---so on judgement day when god sends people into eternal hell, he is sending himself ? so when god destroyed Sodom, what was he doing ? killing himself ? There is a big diff between man and god, if you never separate this ,the metaphysics of yr statement contradicts itself.

"Christ was not a pacifist"

what?
there's a creative approach!

Dirty Harry,Clint Eastwood.
Yes,it was a great movie.

Torture and terror come in different degrees. Micro torture/terror would be waterboarding as supposedly practiced by our military and intelligence agengies or beheadings of Iraqi Shiites by Sunni intelligence groups and vice versa.

Macro terror/torture would be dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. Some might consider the result quite effective.

Have to say, to the Padre columnist, ..that stuff was perverse right out of the starting gate.

I'm just thinking here that life would go down a lot easier if after a week of people saying why it's 'me so holy' to deny sick children health care, if at least we could draw some kind of hazy line in the sand how 'Torture is in fact *bad.*

Seriously. People are swinging a package how my sweetie and I are bound for Hell for snuggling and wanting the health plan, in the name of 'absolute morality,' and you Christian priests (I notice all the Muslim clergy seem to have been driven off by trolls) ...can't get it together on 'Torture is bad?'

Gods.

Look at the state of you. It's a disgrace.

Six years ago, even after September 11, I would not have thought it possible we would be having a debate in America concerning torture. It seems the spirit of "do whatever it takes" and "spare no prisoner" has perverted who we are. Could it be we've simply lost our way? Is it too late to put the wheels back on? Well, my prayer is that we have not gone too far, and if we have, we know God's grace is still sufficient.

America is and will continue to be a shining light in the midst of a dark and dreary world. Yes, evil is ever present, and there are those who seek our demise. However, we must never surrender the hard-fought victories we've won for the cause of Christ, by allowing ourselves to engage in such barbaric acts such as torture.

Most of the stuff that Christians do, especially Catholic priests, are offensive to the rest of us, so what you find ironic isn't really of consequence.

Thanks. This is a wonderful presentation of the Christian case on torture. I think every one would benefit from reading it.

Thanks. This is a wonderful presentation of the Christian case on torture. I think every one would benefit from reading it.

Thanks. This is a wonderful presentation of the Christian case on torture. I think every one would benefit from reading it.

"Christ was not a pacifist, he was also not us. Christ is god. "

Alex, the Christian faith is that Christ is God AND "us" -- fully human and fully God. That's the whole point. He DID experience our life; he reconstituted the image of God in us. And he said "Whatever you do to the sick, the homeless, AND THOSE IN PRISON, you do to me." (Matthew 25:31-46).

So when we torture someone--anyone--we are torturing Jesus.

***

"The President says we do not torture.

There is no good reason to doubt him."

Gary, you're joking, right?

Rich - we know your stand on abortion.

What's your stand on torture?

President George W. Bush's legacy will certainly include his promotion and endorsement of torture. He is not a Christian. He is the devil playing the role of a "good man."

And the GOP stood by his side all the time this was going on. I hope the American voters will remember this when they go to the polls next year.

Alex,

It is -your- premise that is incorrect. Please find the research to show that torture has not only worked, but has worked to a sufficient degree to warrant your further support. As Lepid-etc. pointed out, the research of his premise has been published (repeatedly), often in the pages of the WaPo.

A question: since when does torture constitute the only form of interrogation?

You'll find the answer in the negative, perhaps included in the research suggested above.

Alex,

It is -your- premise that is incorrect. Please do the research to show that torture has not only worked, but has worked to a sufficient degree to warrant your further support. As Lepid-etc. pointed out, the research of his premise has been published (repeatedly), often in the pages of the WaPo.

A question: since when does torture constitute the only form of interrogation?

You'll find the answer in the negative, perhaps included in the research suggested above.

Alex,

It is -your- premise that is incorrect. Please do the research to show that torture has not only worked, but has worked to a sufficient degree to warrant your further support. As Lepid-etc. pointed out, the research of his premise has been published (repeatedly), often in the pages of the WaPo.

A question: since when does torture constitute the only form of interrogation?

You'll find the answer in the negative, along with the research suggested above.

Reverend, why were you pressured to leave the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? Precisely what kinds of Jesuits are trained in Berkley California? Why have you taken a position at a Najdi bankrolled institute at Georgetown, the least Jesuit institution in America? And why have you been engaged in politics for most of your career? And, in your opinion, why did most of your generation embrace Soviet gnosticism during the 60s?

Reverend, why were you pressured to leave the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? Precisely what kinds of Jesuits are trained in Berkley California? Why have you taken a position at a Najdi bankrolled institute at Georgetown, the least Jesuit institution in America? And why have you been engaged in politics for most of your career? And, in your opinion, why did most of your generation embrace Soviet gnosticism during the 60s?

Reverend, why were you pressured to leave the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? Precisely what kinds of Jesuits are trained in Berkley California? Why have you taken a position at a Najdi bankrolled institute at Georgetown, the least Jesuit institution in America? And why have you been engaged in politics for most of your career? And, in your opinion, why did most of your generation embrace Soviet gnosticism during the 60s?

"What was the sermon about?"

"Sin."

"What did he say about sin."

"He is against it."

"Oh."

Or

"So?"

How about being against vivisection, too.

The President says we do not torture.

There is no good reason to doubt him.

"What was the sermon about?"

"Sin."

"What did he say about sin."

"He is against it."

"Oh."

Or

"So?"

How about being against vivisection, too.

The President says we do not torture.

There is no good reason to doubt him.

lepid writes:"If you will look at other posts of mine on this and other threads, you will see that I have actually addressed the fact that even if torture were not abhorrent on its face (which it is), it would still be a bad idea, since information gained that way is of dubious reliability. A person in pain will say whatever they think you want to hear just to make the pain stop. Sinced it's both immoral and unreliable, why engage in it? It's a waste of time and energy."

--Thats absolutely wrong. Based on yr logic, why would anyone bother interrogating anyone ? If there is no incentive to answer a question correctly , why would any prisoner even bother answering ? Torture works, not all the time but there are many more instances during wartime when vital information was obtained on threat and use of torture. Yr premise is incorrect.

The Realm of Reality: War is Hell!!! We enter Hell to include its torture and terror to win said wars!!! That is and has always been the nature of war.

Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres? waterboarding vs. loss of arms, legs and/or sight? waterboarding vs. five hundred pound bombs? waterboarding vs. fire bombing? waterboarding vs. cluster bombing? waterboarding vs. hydrogen bomb holocausts?

Rich:

If you will look at other posts of mine on this and other threads, you will see that I have actually addressed the fact that even if torture were not abhorrent on its face (which it is), it would still be a bad idea, since information gained that way is of dubious reliability. A person in pain will say whatever they think you want to hear just to make the pain stop. Sinced it's both immoral and unreliable, why engage in it? It's a waste of time and energy.

No need to fear for my husband, daughter, or any of the various and sundry teenagers that drift in and out of my home - I'm not a violent person. And I hate no one - hatred of another person gives that person power over you, and I'm not willing to allow anyone to have that kind of power over me.

I just can't for the life of me figure out how you keep bringing the topic of abortion into the idea of war crimes. And yet you seem to be fixated on the idea that the two are equivalent, so I was simply wondering if perhaps you had a touch of OCD.

Rich
I have been a Bus Captain on the March for Life. I am against the death penalty. I am against torture and degradation and war. I have prayed at the graves of those who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan who rest with my family at Arlington National Cemetery. I hold all life sacred from conception to natural death. I follow a man who forgave those who crucified Him.

Blanket condemnations are what led to 9-11. The American government occupied sacred Saudi soil so all Americans deserve death. A handful of Saudi's murdered 3000 Americans so all Moslems deserve death. We now have a system where peoples jobs and profits depend on torturing the "bad guys." They may be some schmuck in the wrong place or have an enemy that wants to use America to disappear them so they become fodder for the mill. Torture is the tool of cowards and sadist and useless for anything but generating terror by using fake confessions to scare fools.

This country was conceived on the concept of rule of law. NO man is above the law including and indeed especially the President. All criminals, even monsters like Manson or Ted Bundy received due process. We made sure the Nazis who were more evil and criminal than anything we have to deal with received due process. Churchill and De Gaulle would have just lynched them. Without the rule of law we are reduced to mob rule and lynch law. We become no longer one nation under God but a collection of "I have mine and screw the rest" loners.

I will pray for you and for this country as I have to take my meds and go to Church now.

lepidopteryx:

Rich:

Forget your meds this morning?"

Just another fine example, don't argue the facts, attack. Really, I think you could do better then that. Bring it on, fire off some of that deep down hate. I really want to spare your wife kids from their nightly beatings. I am doing it for them. Come on lepid, try harder. I know you have it in you. Free the hate. Stop the dunking, dunking kills.

raisin mountaineer:

Thanks. You said it all, and perfectly. What a relief to have someone say it so well, as I get all inarticulate when someone starts taking my savior's name in the worst kind of vain-- that of wrapping Jesus in the red, white and blue, instead of following his teachings that just as we treat the prisoner, the sick, the naked, we have treated Him.

This country is becoming the devil we fear"

Yes, another of the true left. America is Satan. I am sure you pray for our demise every night. Maybe your wish will come true and you can kneel 5 times a day to the east and just be thankful to be alive. I am sure your t.v. and internet service will be long gone but hey maybe you might like that. Here is to your wish coming true. Heck I would not mind chipping in a little coin for some transport to Iran or Saudi Arabia. There you can see your wishes come true.

Rich:

Forget your meds this morning?

Um, John, are you arguing with yourself?

John:

The Christian Right in this country are neither Christian or right. Those who have or support an abortion are excommunicated. There is a call to do the same for any politician that doesn't support an end to abortion.

The Church needs to do the same for torturers, those who order and support torture, and politicians who refuse to stand against torture. By pushing a one note outrage issue like abortion and remaining silent on most other issues like war and torture or the plight of Christian and Moslem Palestinians the Church is showing it is no longer the Church of Christ. They pander to the dwindling numbers in the pews and refuse to preach the Gospel for fear the pews would be empty. These people though are empty of faith so the pews are already empty in practice.

This is also the Church that refuses to stand up to the Chinese and its phony Catholic Church. The faith was built on the blood of martyrs who refused to kneel to Rome. Now Rome kneels to the peasant Emperors. O tempore O mores
AMDG"

The church is only a reflection of its people. Always has and always will be. Too funny how the left that condemns the church at every turn now wishes the church to rise and make some sort of stand. I am sure you ridicule those that think abortion is wrong but yet you are too willing to cry the tears in protection of these terrorists that blow up innocent people for kicks. I am sure in your twisted logic you are doing what is moral because you believe those babies are not babies and that America is really the true satan and therefore this terrorists are only reacting to this evil occupation. Am I right?

Thanks. You said it all, and perfectly. What a relief to have someone say it so well, as I get all inarticulate when someone starts taking my savior's name in the worst kind of vain-- that of wrapping Jesus in the red, white and blue, instead of following his teachings that just as we treat the prisoner, the sick, the naked, we have treated Him.

This country is becoming the devil we fear.

The Christian Right in this country are neither Christian or right. Those who have or support an abortion are excommunicated. There is a call to do the same for any politician that doesn't support an end to abortion.

The Church needs to do the same for torturers, those who order and support torture, and politicians who refuse to stand against torture. By pushing a one note outrage issue like abortion and remaining silent on most other issues like war and torture or the plight of Christian and Moslem Palestinians the Church is showing it is no longer the Church of Christ. They pander to the dwindling numbers in the pews and refuse to preach the Gospel for fear the pews would be empty. These people though are empty of faith so the pews are already empty in practice.

This is also the Church that refuses to stand up to the Chinese and its phony Catholic Church. The faith was built on the blood of martyrs who refused to kneel to Rome. Now Rome kneels to the peasant Emperors. O tempore O mores
AMDG

Ellen:

Why haven't more Christian leaders here in America spoken out against our seeming embrace of waterboarding and other tortures? Of Abu Ghraib? Of the cowboy/cartoonish violence of Blackwater and its random killing of civilians?

And I mean both the majority moderate Christian leadership which has been stunningly silent for the last 7 years as well as the more extreme fundamentalist Christian leadership which seems to enthusiastically to speak out about its "moral values"??? Where are the Rabbis and the Imams? Is torture not a moral issue?

Our country needs some true moral guidance here, and the religious leadership's silence is DEAFENING. No wonder so many people are leaving the church"

Where are you on abortion there Ellen? Care to share your views.

Christ was not a pacifist, he was also not us. Christ is god. Whether you believe in Christ or not, god will judge, god will cast those he finds unworthy into hell w/gnashing of teeth (and alot of things that liberal Christianity close there eyes to), etc etc. The liberal world would love to paint Christ as sugar and spice and everything nice, we all go to heaven and live hapilly ever after but its alot more then that. So before we start cherry picking the bible to back our views (as Thomas has) lets at least be accurate on the theological backing of what we paint god to be.

Why haven't more Christian leaders here in America spoken out against our seeming embrace of waterboarding and other tortures? Of Abu Ghraib? Of the cowboy/cartoonish violence of Blackwater and its random killing of civilians?

And I mean both the majority moderate Christian leadership which has been stunningly silent for the last 7 years as well as the more extreme fundamentalist Christian leadership which seems to enthusiastically to speak out about its "moral values"??? Where are the Rabbis and the Imams? Is torture not a moral issue?

Our country needs some true moral guidance here, and the religious leadership's silence is DEAFENING. No wonder so many people are leaving the church.

Why haven't more Christian leaders here in America spoken out against our seeming embrace of waterboarding and other tortures? Of Abu Ghraib? Of the cowboy/cartoonish violence of Blackwater and its random killing of civilians?

And I mean both the majority moderate Christian leadership which has been stunningly silent for the last 7 years as well as the more extreme evangelical Christian leadership which seems to enthusiastically to speak out about its "moral values"??? Where are the Rabbis and the Imams? Is torture not a moral issue?

Our country needs some true moral guidance here, and the religious leadership's silence is DEAFENING. No wonder so many people are leaving the church.

I am the Anonymous who posted November 8, 2007 1:33 PM

Christians are so conditioned to having tough sounding guys, like the WOPmeister Giuliani, slipping their salamis up their oft penetrated butts that they automatically and willingly assume the bent over position. Forget who Jesus was and what he preached, christian religions are passive when a tough little WOP from Brooklyn says "follow me". Bhaaaa, bhaaaa, bhaaaa ....... get in line little followers and grease up the old chocolate factory orifice for your new lord an savior.

Excellent synopsis, C.G. Larkin. Many of the most UNChristian people I've met in my life were fundamentalist Christians. My sense is that it's not just them; it's in the nature of organized religion and other "divinely-inspired" human institutions itself. If the U.S. can get through this reactionary period of its history and mature into full-borne secularism like Western Europe it will probably make us more civilized as a country. To do so, though, we will have to see how religion has failed us instead of running to it in times of trouble and need like children. We must also begin to learn how rationalist agnosticism/atheism is a viable and stable path to our future.

Religion only provides ancient, rigid, vague, conflicting, unproven, and superstitious accounts of events often irrelevant to today's world. It is a product of primal and egotistical fear of death and the unknown and the comfort of wallowing in perceived immortality to salve it.

Science and mathematics has so much to teach us about the nature of the universe and life if we are brave and rigorous enough to follow where it leads. It's most valuable lesson is that to grow is to constantly question, test and renew our knowledge, perspective and understanding about ourselves and the nature of the world around us. The unimaginable scope of the universe ensures and assures us that nothing we can ever do will make us God. Creating a God in our image only makes us look inward and fuels our philosophical self-absorption. However, if we remain open, curious, and hard-working we are more likely to remain calm, healthy, virtuous and happy. We all have what it takes to live the lives we are given all by ourselves. Since we all live and die in the blink of an eye let's work to make the best of what we have right now. It's still more beautiful than we'll ever know! :)

Well Rev, I think you have into the den there if you want to make the comparison that America is now Nazi Germany or Spain during the inquisition. That smacks of the left. I think you better check the date on that wine.

One of these days, maybe I'll meet a Christian, but for now, I think you meant to write "Christianist" in your headline, not "Christian."

With that caveat, of course they want Dirty Harry for President. Authoritarian followers, all.

This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.

one christian finally speaks out. Nicely said.

As Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them," which pretty much leaves all the so-called "Christian Right" and their ilk out of the equation.

President Bush once said Jesus was the philosopher who had the greatest influence on his life, but one has to wonder how small that influence really was, given the fruits we can see, and how extremely little that means any other philosopher's teachings affected him.

An excellent summary of the issue; thank you Rev. Reese.

The irony stands that a CHristian Administration made America a torturing nation.

and they are working fiendishly to bury & justify what they've done.

way to go CHRISTIAN AMERICA!!!!
WOOHOOO!!!

what an ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!

you will never be respected or admired again.

-from a former Christian, now ashamed and disowning all of you.

Torture reveals just the tip of the iceberg of large swaths of American "Christian" hypocrisy.

Christ spoke for the poor, America speaks for conspicuous consumption.

Christ promoted peace, America speaks endlessly of war.

Christ spoke for gentleness, America glorifies
violence.

Christ called his followers away from their families, Americans dwell endlessly on "family
values."

Christ witheld judgement, Americans are eager to judge others.

Christ had compassion for "the other", Americans
lust for the satisfaction of the self.

Christ was an poor itinerant teacher, Americans
are in thrall to TV evangelists preaching a gospel of wealth.

In what sense, then, is America a "Christian" nation?

C.G. Larkin
Spartanburg, SC

The irony stands that a CHristian Administration made America a torturing nation.

and they are working fiendishly to bury & justify what they've done.

way to go CHRISTIAN AMERICA!!!!
WOOHOOO!!!

what an ACCOMPLISHMENT!!!

you will never be respected or admired again.

-from a former Christian, now ashamed and disowning all of you.

I believe that Father Reese what could be called a "boosh" to the sickeningly perverse interpretation of the Bible that mainline Christians follow today.

Finally, a Catholic who speaks out for real Chriatian values, hard to believe, but torture is not what Christ was all about.

Father Reese: "It would be ironic and perverse for Christians, who worship a man who was tortured and killed, to use torture themselves."

But let's not forget that this same man promises an eternity of torture for anyone who does not believe in him.

If you don't see hell that way, Father, perhaps you should say so, and provide your references, because the concept of eternal torture in hell is certainly perceived among followers of Christ to be a major part of their religion.

Maybe that's why some Christians find it so easy to approve of torturing their enemies.

Thank you, Father Reese, for your concise explanation on the wrongs of torture. I particularly applaud you for holding your and my Church accountable for torture in its history.

Everyone on these boards should send Cal Thomas a link to this article...

The only thing wrong with this article is its use of the subjunctive case: "It would be ironic and perverse for Christians, who worship a man who was tortured and killed, to use torture themselves." It is clear that not only do a plurality of candidates for president advocate torture or at least refuse to rule it out, not only is our Congress willing to bargain and equivocate on the subject, but our Executive Branch and our Military are engaging in torture now, regardless of how they mince words.

Just yesterday a friend offered me the following aphorism, which seems to apply here: The word "irony" just announced its retirement from the English language, saying that it is no longer able to keep up with the demands that are being made upon it.