Respect For Women Yes, Worship of Goddesses No

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Thanks boys
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Hi boys!
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Hi boys!
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Hello people
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Why is it in a forum where the Pagan traditions are being smacked by the writer, are there Pagans willing to distance themselves from one group (Dianics) to make themselves seem more acceptable to this Christian writer who displays amazing ignorance of modern Pagan movements? I am ashamed.

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Athena's emblem is the 5 pointed star. You might notice that almost all militaries in the world still use the 5 pointed star. Now, as in ancient times war is governed by a Goddess. Men are traditionally the ones who die in war (while wearing sacrificial symbols to the Goddess such as the chevron).

that little thing that is between womens leg has got the world in a up roar, let me tell you why.first off,no matter how educated women are they still behave like animale,they search for a mate as if they were rearing children for future gladator competion.I am a 5'8" attractive male, one that most women will lok over until she has been used abused and screwed by the man of her dreams. and then that is wher i come in to the picture.once realized that I and many others like me are nice fellows, consideration wants to be give, but who wants somone that all there life has acted like an animale due to there own ignorance. secondly, consider this;a good portion of women only find religion after having been doged out to the point that that is there only refuge.but consider this,now you have 3 kids and you want to attract someone not very inticing because now you to accept you and your children in which you look at and see the father and can not stand,but yet and still you want me to love and accept them, quite a difficult situation.my suggestion is that if you want men to respect you in the long run you have to have respected your self from the begining, because just as tabula rosa means ;there has not been a cleaned slate just because you found religion for ever thing we have done is still inbeded in everybeing, and even though we may not do the same things that we we used to do these urges are manifasted and satified in different manners. so once again if you want respect you have to give respect as the old saying gose,for if i was only "LITTLE MAN" when you were running with the big dogs how an I to believe you when you say now I am the MAN of your life. PEACE LOVE & UNDERSTANDING!

Humans are in fact not intelligent or rational. We are mostly blind. Why can't we discover the absurdity in such beliefs in male gods or female gods? Judaism, Christianity and Islam, for example, worship all male gods. The gods are not only male, but also patriarchial, like the despotic heads of a family. There are no roles for women in these religions. Some other religions have goddesses or both gods and goddesses. Why can't we see that all religions are thus just human creations, reflecting human societies? As the Old-Testment God was too archaic and inhuman, Jesus created a new God, more lenient and forgiving and thus was killed by those who worshipped the old God.

Humans need a new Messiah who can unify all the religions or at least show them that all the gods /goddesses that they have been worshipping are not the true God or gods/goddesses and that God/gods/goddesses, if they exist, have never intervened in human affairs or have never wanted humans to know about Him/them, let alone worship them by killing each other.

This author is missing the point. The truth is God is masculine and feminine. He is our Mother as well as our Father, and a Pope said that. It is not just a matter of picking out an ideal of a woman and worshipping her as as "goddess." The Divine Being, the Primal Parent is NOT a man, nor a woman. Why do we have to call God HE when SHE would do just as well? There are Christian sects (Unity and Religious Science for two) that pray to Mother/Father God outloud in church. True they don't say goddess. But what is the argument here? Goddess is the wrong word to use for the Supreme Deity? A person should not voice an opinion supporting or opposing anything unless they know what it is.

Morgaine,
thank you so very much for that wonderful, articulate and insightful post. It is uplifting to see that there are still people who can state their views in such a beautiful and effective manner while avoiding the habit that so many people have gotten into of belittling and insulting those whose views differ from their own. You are to be applauded. Even if I did not agree 100% with your comments (which I actually did), I would have to respect the manner in which you expressed them.
Thank you again.
Peace and Bright Blessings to you,
Maggie Silentfaun

Hi, Solange -

I have to respectfully disagree. Recent research is finding that people are not naturally violent. Our species was initially successful because of our ability to cooperate. Violence might occur some places in nature, but not everywhere. Everyone is fond of comparing us to the behavior of chimpanzees, but we are more likely to have been sensual and cooperative as bonobos are. There have been human societies without violence. There is evidence that war was virtually unknown to the Minoan culture. Archeologists are looking for it, but they can't find it. They find lots and lots of Goddess statues, though, even though they try to gloss over their gender.

Remember that the prevailing theories in anthropology and archeology have been through the patriarchal filter of academia. We have to sift through the androcentrism to find the truth. It benefits the power structure for us to buy into the lie that we will always be violent. A very few people make a lot of money by keeping us at war, and they don't care who has to die, or how many, as long as their coffers are filled. The rest of us don't count - Hurricane Katrina should have erased any doubt of this.

There have indeed been gender egalitarian civilizations, including some Native American groups. The First Nations were not homogenous - different groups had vastly different cultures and practices. Not all were violent, and most were not patriarchal until forced onto reservations, when they had to have male authorities to interface with the white patriarchal government. The Haudenosaunee still retain a semi-matriarchal structure. You might want to check out some of the surviving matriarchies - the Mosuo of China, for example- to see a culture where there is no marriage, no concept of women as chattel, and no oppression of women.

I guess I have a more positive view of the potential of people. A sensible man is quite capable of making the shift into the Gaian mind - many already are, though they don't fully realize it yet. When enough people realize that "the team" is a racist, sexist, elitist core of a few very rich, very white people who are robbing the rest of us, they'll take back their power. The international Green Party, and the new attention to the environment are a part of this. People are waking up. Why do you think the government is so terrified of "eco-terrorists?" Environmentalism, consumer protection, corporate regulation and social responsibility cut into profits, and money is what really matters to them.

I believe the crisis of climate change is going to accelerate this process. "The team" created this mess, so the team needs to be disbanded, and control returned to the people. It's a change vital not to the Earth, because She is a self-healing organism, but to us. If we continue to act like a cancer that grows out of control and destroys the body, Her body will rid itself of us. It won't be a "punishment" but rather a normal function of Gaia's immune system. We have no choice but to live in harmony with Her - there's no life without Her.

Even if you don't believe the Earth is alive, wouldn't it be more practical to act as if it were? We aren't going to colonize the moon this year. This is our one and only home. It just makes sense to maintain it.

It doesn't take much to put Goddess values into practice, because they are practical. Witches only use what works. As soon as people stop thinking of planets as dead rocks and the Universe as a computer, and understand that they are living organisms, the new paradigm will lead them to understand our place in the world.

The problem right now is that policy is being made by people who are following codes written by nomadic tribes from 5,000 years ago. These might have made sense then, but they are keeping us from moving forward as a species. We have to adapt and grow, and a part of that is getting back in touch with the Earth.

It doesn't require "belief." If anything, it requires doubt. The ability to admit that we might be wrong can put us back on track. Moral certainty is what drives a person to strap a bomb on his back, or to pass legislation that oppresses people for arbitrary reasons, or disenfranchise entire groups or genders or to kill 600,000 people for no reason at all. Would you drop a bomb on someone if you thought you might be making a mistake?

The simple reality is that any one of us can be mistaken. The scriptures people rely upon might be incorrect, inaccurate, deliberately altered for various reasons or mistranslated. Even if they are of divine origin, our understanding of them may not be. We can be wrong, and none of us can know for certain what the nature of the divine is until we die. In the mean time, a little critical thinking would go a long way toward solving our problems.

Goddess sensibilities can save us. Seeing each other as children of the same Source can give us respect for those who differ from us. Seeing the Ocean as the Womb of Life - and it is - discourages dumping waste and chemicals into it. Open, healthy sensuality without guilt, guile or repression reduces the violence in a society. Respecting others as a part of ourselves creates calmer, kinder people. The Goddess demands no sacrifice, discourages violence, encourages cooperation, sees women as the Source of Life, children as gifts of the Goddess, embraces men as Her own children. There's no war, no hell, no damnation, no guilt in the Goddess, there's only love for ourselves and each other. I'll take those blessings over a god of war any day.

Well said. One point of contention: While people are often tempted to believe otherwise, historical, archeological and anthropological evidence overwhelmingly affirms that violence is, indeed, a "natural" part of human nature (as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom).

Much of that violence has, as we know, been carried out by men, in the process of obtaining and accumulating more wealth than the other guy (albeit, often goaded on by women). Again, as noted earlier, this helps men ensure they "spread the seed" before more attractive guys get in there and procreate. There's a reason middle eastern harem guards were all eunachs, know what I mean?

There's just no evidence of a gender egalitarian culture existing, ever, in human history. That includes native americans, who often raided rival tribes, kidnapped new "wives," killed the offspring of other males, and so on (south american cultures, and those that did not cultivate agriculture, were worse).

Patriarchical religious doctrine emerged to bolster those processes, because men were able to develop the power and authority structures necessary to support them. Women were excluded from those structures for reasons mentioned earlier -- no authority for women works to the benefit of the whole "team." The historical mystery, of course, is why women allowed themselves to be excluded from power structures. The logistics of child care was one factor, but there are others that go to biology.

As Morgaine mentions, and I noted earlier, Judeo-Christian-Moslem based cultural practices, do indeed, place human survival at risk. While gender polarity is part of the flawed thinking in those dogmas (Christianity departs somewhat, but of course, nobody really practices it anyway), the prospect of men letting down the "team" to move towards a more Gaiaic sensibility appears remote, at best.

I can't even call that flawed logic, because it's no logic at all. First, you cannot compare post-patriarchal cults to Goddess worship, even if their pantheons include Goddesses. They might provide for some feminine representation of the divine, but always in a subordinate or negative form. The great Goddesses were re-written to be servile or evil, always in service to or opposition of the male deity.

As a Dianic Witch, I see the Universe as a living, female entity that is all inclusive. Gaia is a microcosm of the larger body. A monotheast - one who believes in one Goddess - has a much broader view of deity than most people realize. There's a saying in the Craft that "all gods are Goddesses and all Goddesses are one Goddess." There is no conflict in that statement if you stop thinking in black and white, concrete terms. The Goddess will take any form you need Her to take, and some of those forms are male.

The Feminine Divine is not exclusive of the male, as if it were a reverse of monotheism. It's not "patriarchy in a skirt." In nature the first and favored gender is female. There are species in which females produce without males. There are none where males produce without females. The masculine is a derivative of, and included in, the feminine. The first couple was not a man and a woman, it was a female and her child. Note the pervasive obsession with Virgin Births in modern theology. This could very easily be an unconscious desire to return to the Goddess.

One of the worst things to happen to Pagan culture is the popularity of the yin/yang symbol. There is always a majority in favor of the female gender. Polarity is destructive - it creates either conflict or stagnation. It is the epitome of the black and white thinking that pervades this society. Life comes in many shades, and the Goddess encompasses all of them, not half of them.

There is one major misconception in the world today, and it is putting our survival at risk - the idea that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are different religions. They are variations of worship of the same, singular male deity, and that deity is violent, oppressive, and exclusive. The irony is that the three branches are trying to annihilate each other because they're part of the same poison tree, which values conquest and genocide.

It makes me sad that people cannot even envision a world of cooperation, peace, love of the Goddess and each other. We lived that way for hundreds of thousands of years, at least. Even if we get people to let go of their war god, it won't be enough. We need to create a culture where we see each other as parts of a whole, and people behave in their natural, cooperative way.

Violence is learned, not natural, and Goddess societies lived peacefully while developing agriculture, art and sciences that we're only now rediscovering. Christianity threw the Western world into a Dark Age during which we lost the knowledge of the ancient world - things like atomic theory and evolution, which were known in ancient Alexandria and only relearned in modern times. As patriarchy spread, its sickness of greed and hate became institutionalized in our laws and our scriptures, while remnants of the Old Ways were deliberately obscured, co-opted or destroyed. If we aren't careful, we'll have another wave of darkness - look at the influence of the Religious Right, which is challenging the doctrine of evolution and trying to re-write American histoy to fit their agenda. Are we going to let that happen again? It took several millenia for us to come back from the first wave.

Getting back in touch with the great Goddess is exactly what this planet needs. Sustainable societies are possible. Peace is possible. Patriarchy got us into this violent, polluted mess - Matriarchy could certainly get us out of it. Remember that a few people wield a lot of power, money and control by keeping people at war and in fear. Don't accept the lie that it's "just the way humans are." Get in touch with the power of Nature, then take your own power back from the church and the state and choose to be a part of the world instead of apart from it.

The Goddess is back and She's not going away again.

I can't even call that flawed logic, because it's no logic at all. First, you cannot compare post-patriarchal cults to Goddess worship, even if their pantheons include Goddesses. They might provide for some feminine representation of the divine, but always in a subordinate or negative form. The great Goddesses were re-written to be servile or evil, always in service to or opposition of the male deity.

As a Dianic Witch, I see the Universe as a living, female entity that is all inclusive. Gaia is a microcosm of the larger body. A monotheast - one who believes in one Goddess - has a much broader view of deity than most people realize. There's a saying in the Craft that "all gods are Goddesses and all Goddesses are one Goddess." There is no conflict in that statement if you stop thinking in black and white, concrete terms. The Goddess will take any form you need Her to take, and some of those forms are male.

The Feminine Divine is not exclusive of the male, as if it were a reverse of monotheism. It's not "patriarchy in a skirt." In nature the first and favored gender is female. There are species in which females produce without males. There are none where males produce without females. The masculine is a derivative of, and included in, the feminine. The first couple was not a man and a woman, it was a female and her child. Note the pervasive obsession with Virgin Births in modern theology. This could very easily be an unconscious desire to return to the Goddess.

One of the worst things to happen to Pagan culture is the popularity of the yin/yang symbol. There is always a majority in favor of the female gender. Polarity is destructive - it creates either conflict or stagnation. It is the epitome of the black and white thinking that pervades this society. Life comes in many shades, and the Goddess encompasses all of them, not half of them.

There is one major misconception in the world today, and it is putting our survival at risk - the idea that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are different religions. They are variations of worship of the same, singular male deity, and that deity is violent, oppressive, and exclusive. The irony is that the three branches are trying to annihilate each other because they're part of the same poison tree, which values conquest and genocide.

It makes me sad that people cannot even envision a world of cooperation, peace, love of the Goddess and each other. We lived that way for hundreds of thousands of years, at least. Even if we get people to let go of their war god, it won't be enough. We need to create a culture where we see each other as parts of a whole, and people behave in their natural, cooperative way.

Violence is learned, not natural, and Goddess societies lived peacefully while developing agriculture, art and sciences that we're only now rediscovering. Christianity threw the Western world into a Dark Age during which we lost the knowledge of the ancient world - things like atomic theory and evolution, which were known in ancient Alexandria and only relearned in modern times. As patriarchy spread, its sickness of greed and hate became institutionalized in our laws and our scriptures, while remnants of the Old Ways were deliberately obscured, co-opted or destroyed. If we aren't careful, we'll have another wave of darkness - look at the influence of the Religious Right, which is challenging the doctrine of evolution and trying to re-write American histoy to fit their agenda. Are we going to let that happen again? It took several millenia for us to come back from the first wave.

Getting back in touch with the great Goddess is exactly what this planet needs. Sustainable societies are possible. Peace is possible. Patriarchy got us into this violent, polluted mess - Matriarchy could certainly get us out of it. Remember that a few people wield a lot of power, money and control by keeping people at war and in fear. Don't accept the lie that it's "just the way humans are." Get in touch with the power of Nature, then take your own power back from the church and the state and choose to be a part of the world instead of apart from it.

The Goddess is back and She's not going away again.

Sorry, that second paragraph was meant for Solange.

Terra Gazelle wrote:

"The Goddesses found in the digs were not stand ins for Playboy...but representatives of the Great Goddess; Large breasts that nurish the world, large hips that are good for birth giving. Some of the figures were found in what would have been little niches in walls...they were seen as Goddesses not the ancient view of a fat Tyra Banks.

Please make an effort to learn about Pagans and what they practice."
________________________

Don't speak for all of us, Terra. As a pagan and Wiccan priestess, I believe that many of the figures, based on their look, WERE primitive Playboys. Large breasts/hips were also sexually attractive (still are to many males); not just Mother Earth aspects. Maybe, just maybe, men on long hunts satisfied a sexual need by inspiration. That's not a BAD thing.

The ones that were found in niches might have been household Goddesses, they might have been in storage. We simply don't know. But please make an effort to learn that all pagans don't believe in the idea that gender-based faiths catered to the needs of that gender primarily.

*grin* Solange, we're on the same page. I also believe that most of the figures were sexually oriented and not necessarily religious objects. Re-read my post of January 22, 2007 9:50 AM.

"little niches in walls..."

as opposed to rolled up behind the towels?

Again, sorry to offend. My point is simply that people tailor religion to their own needs, and thus male-created religions are going to cater to male needs. It's my contention that history shows those needs to be, generally, detrimental to women's welfare. I personally believe the process is biologically grounded. Thus I am skeptical of that men and women can participate "equally" in any faith-based program.

WOW!
Solange...
First off, my partner is titled High Priest which means he is a MAN...the ESS is the feminine, meaning I am a woman. He is very happy with his part in the religion and our group, he is strong in areas I am not..and I am strong in areas he is not. We work well together and have an elders counsel in case we need them.

And, as you do not know me, do not insult me that i am morally corrupt. I and the Priest do not have sex in any way as I am not married to him. I am happily married to a man that is not Pagan, and my oath to my husband seems to be stronger then the Christian pastor down the road who landed in jail for abusing 24 children in his church along with some furry animals. He had help, the town cop for one. And not a Witch in the group.

The Goddesses found in the digs were not stand ins for Playboy...but representatives of the Great Goddess; Large breasts that nurish the world, large hips that are good for birth giving. Why is it people do not see the obvious but only what their modern minds are used to? Some of the figures were found in what would have been little niches in walls...they were seen as Goddesses not the ancient view of a fat Tyra Banks.

Please make an effort to learn about Pagans and what they practice.

I will not say there are not Pagans who do partake of sex and other things...but that is not what we are about, no more then Christians are about raping children and beastiality.

For the poster that asked the question how a Wiccan High Priestess can be legally ordained...

Wicca is a legal religion..I am affiliated with a Wiccan church that has legal standing, I have been educated by many years of work and proving myself was ordained.

We do live in a country where there is no State Church that is Established. The courts have conseded that we have all the elements of any other recognized religion....Wicca was also added in the Military handbook for Chaplains...

There are now all kinds of Wiccan churches and seminaries, as well as other institutions such as our version of boy and girl scouts; The Spiral Scouts, 12 step programs and charities. We marry people, have what you all would call baptisms, ficilitate at funerals, counsel the grieving and those needing help, we are also chaplains in hospitals and prisons.

Now just why is that so hard to believe...and I live in the deep south.

While we may not be Christian, Muslim or Jew, we are a religion and like any other should be respected.

Yes, but what a rich bonanza was left over to divide between those who survived the carnage...especially if they never had to step on the battlefield but convinced poorer and younger men to go in their place (did the Texas Air National Guard exist in 500 BC?)

Imagine if it were legal, and indeed, church-sanctioned for women to eliminate rivals in the same way men do: to find some "patriotic" excuse to take out a whole cadre of supermodels, calender girls, Miss America, etc., then take over their cool jobs, condos, cash and football player boyfriends.

Now we begin to understand God-the-Father's very useful contribution to the male side of history.

"... most major 'spiritual' dogmas place males above females..."

You mean Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Hinduism? The male War-God religions? They're 'major' because they've slaughtered anyone who wouldn't join their ranks.

Historically speaking, male fear and hostility towards female power, as expressed in various androcentric "philosophical" and "spiritual" texts like the bible, koran, etc., seem to focus on so-called female emotionality and "unstability" for the same reasons they focus on female bodily functions: as projections of a more general male fear of being bypassed or rejected socially and thus sexually...of losing face.

As noted earlier, men have fewer chances to mate if they do not achieve social status. Most women, on the other hand, will reproduce no matter what. This is why men have historically insisted on monopolizing the concept of "authority" as masculine. If women have no authority, while low-ranking males carry some "inherently male" amount, the odds to mate improve for even low-status males.

These concerns of course become more pressing as men age and grow less vigorous and more unappealing physically (the point in life when people begin to write down their philosophical insights and observations, if they're allowed to). As the older male begins to see younger, more attractive males moving in to replace him (this happens with all animals), those fears naturally drive him to find ways to control women's access to better quality mates. Enter "religion," and with it, the notion of the "divine," as masculine.

While most major "spiritual" dogmas place males above females, they have also historically proved quite useful as a political tool for older, spent-out men to sucker younger, healthy hotties into a "patriotic" frenzy, whence they very helpfully go off and die in battle, thus further reducing youth competition.

So we see that religion has really provided the social backbone to bolster human male mating opportunities, as it has developed through the ages.

Sadly, also wasting a whole slew of hot, young guys on the battlefield.

The historical mystery, of course, is why women have bought into this stuff for these past millenia. Religions that sucker women into "worshiping" a masculinized diety likely play a key role.

But Heaven Forbid we worship the Female divine unless as some Divine handmaiden virgin. Female
fierceness is to be denied yet Abrahamic Temper Tantrums are encouaraged and used by men as role modeling and divine mentorship. But Heaven forbid that women or men be have an example of female divine behaviour, beyond put up Virgin Theotokises, patience and virtue. But then again men must be angry and short tempered and fierce. They have to run the world and we handmaidens must pander their wishes. To say no to a Goddess means you do not Trust the running of the World, life or society to the female sex and are medieval in you beliefs in female autonomy and abilities of women to be responsible. And maybe a deep-seated fear of female emotionality and unstability.

The Venus figurines are unappealing by today's weight standards; but they do share numerous elements in common with modern porn. The total absence of distinguishing facial features or individual identity on most of these carvings emphasize sex characteristics almost to the point of caricature (which may explain the "fat"). Not unlike today's "models" which seem to resemble each other more and more each year.

Sorry to offend, Seshen, but history is pretty clear that when it comes to male "spirituality," religion is just another cool inspiration for whacking material...NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

Athana wrote on Jan 22, 10:16 am:

"I'm sure men at Catalhoyuk, Turkey, 6000 BC, got a big sex bang outa seeing the grossly fat, nude Goddess seated on a throne flanked by two lionnesses and in the process of giving birth (the head of the newborn is just appearing)."

That's entirely separate from the small, hand-sized, full-figured figures that are being referenced. And "grossly fat" today was considered attractive in times past.

Seshen
http://seshen.livejournal.com

Whoops! Thought we got free ads here for weblogs. Guess not. My address:

http://godmotherascending.blogspot.com/

Dear January 21, 2007 7:36 PM,

"The 'fertility' GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today."

I'm sure men at Catalhoyuk, Turkey, 6000 BC, got a big sex bang outa seeing the grossly fat, nude Goddess seated on a throne flanked by two lionnesses and in the process of giving birth (the head of the newborn is just appearing).

Come on over to my blog for a pic; I'm sure you'll see what I mean about this figure being a stunning, titillating turn-on.

Solange, I disagree with many of your statements.

"except that you are a priestESS who affords to your male colleague the root term "priest," and has no problem with language that diminutes (female) GoddESSes as secondary, again, to the root concept of god as masculine."

The "ESS" is not a diminutive nor a secondary; languages all over the planet have endings that differentiate gender.

"Are your discrimination-free male colleagues so enthusiastic to "share" authority, promotion opportunities, wealth, etc. in the real world...or take a back seat?"

Absolutely. The pagan community is abundant in this. Secure males in general are not threatened in the "real world" by women who are responsible authority figures.

"Would they be as interested in Wiccan ceremonies if multiple sex partners were not a part of the ideology? Not likely."

Well, since multiple sex partners are NOT part of the Wiccan ideology, that's kind of a moot point. Try studying up on the faith instead of relying on New Age and Hollywood for your information.

"The "fertility" GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today."

My Wiccan priest husband & I do agree on this. We believe they were likely portable inspiration for hunters away from home for long periods of time.

"Looking to the past will not solve the problems women face from patriarchical traditions..."

Agreed as well, although Wicca is a modern, 20th century faith so we don't have too look very far back. ;) I recommend "Matriarchal Prehistory - Why An Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future" by Cynthia Eller.

"Wicca is a positive force to counter traditional male cultural authoritarianism, but there is no such thing as a "male witch" and the philosophy contradicts itself when a sexual duality principle is incorporated."

Maybe in the 1960s, but Wicca is not simply a counterculture movement against male authority. In the 21st century, the equality field is much more defined. It's not a women's religion anymore (in fact, it began with men having the higher authority), and there are most definitely male witches in abundance!

"We are equal, each having their duties and strengths..."

except that you are a priestESS who affords to your male colleague the root term "priest," and has no problem with language that diminutes (female) GoddESSes as secondary, again, to the root concept of god as masculine.

No doubt in the process of conducting silly ceremonies your male constituants especially look forward to, which incorporate extracurricular activities in the name of "sacred harmonic union." Are your discrimination-free male colleagues so enthusiastic to "share" authority, promotion opportunities, wealth, etc. in the real world...or take a back seat? I doubt it. Would they be as interested in Wiccan ceremonies if multiple sex partners were not a part of the ideology? Not likely.

The "fertility" GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today.

Looking to the past will not solve the problems women face from patriarchical traditions...it's going to take a redefinition of what constitutes authority and leadership to achieve "equality..." something you are not going to find, historically, in any culture or time.

Wicca is a positive force to counter traditional male cultural authoritarianism, but there is no such thing as a "male witch" and the philosophy contradicts itself when a sexual duality principle is incorporated.

Athana,
Thank you...that is so true.Wimpy make over goddesses is true. Not like Ishtar... or Isis, Hecate or any number of pre classical deities. Hera went from a Mother Goddess to the shrill jealous wife of the womanizing, egotistcal god Zeus.

I also have a book or two to recommend- When God was a Woman by Merlin Stone and The Chalise and the Blade by Eiane Eisler.

The Gods I honor are the pre classical ones..starting with Gaea, Ouranos/Chaos and Chronus/Time...Gaea,the vessel of life who brought Time out of Chaos, then with Time created the Gods and man. I don't know any one that worships the Gods as living breatheing entities that are running around in Togas, but as energies of creation...we are not so literal.

Wicca from it's start was a religion that honored the balance and harmony of energies..Masculine/Feminine.Even the Dianics have those who honor the male Divine..we are filled with Feminists true. And as a feminist I give equal honor to the man that works along side of me as a High Priest, as he gives me as the High Priestess and Lady of the Temple. I do have the last word, but I also can be asked to step down if I mess up, as is he. We are equal, each having their duties and strengths. Leading Pagans is like herding cats and if people do not pull together it is too easy for things to fall apart.We have a hard enough slog just existing in this world of discrimination. Our Gods teach us in our faith that each are to be respected for "Thou art God/Goddess"...and as such part of the divine.

There are many myths about how the male Gods demoted the Mother Goddesses from their rightful place..
Such as the story of Apollo walking into the throne room of Gaea(the original owner) at Delphi and pulling Her from her Throne, He killed the Pythoness but needed Her powers. He still needed women as seers, men could not cut it.So only women who have see 50 winters could be a seer of Delphi.

And all the way though history there has been myths of the down fall of the powerful Goddesses to be second to the more war like and in the case of some..more stupid male gods.

Maybe some academics need to pay more attention to the ancient myths such as the Descent of the Goddess... start with Ishtar, there are others.(the story of Jesus dieing for three days and then returning, could be seen as a copy of this more ancient feminine Divine myth.) Myths are entertainment that the masses could understand wrapped about a truth. The use and understanding of the ancient symbols have been forgotten, and without that knowledge you can not understand the truth.

Blessed Be,

Wendy,

“Goddess feminists are whistling in the dark when they argue … that everyone used to worship goddesses (some people did, but many did not)….”

Just a tad curious how you know who worshipped what in the past. As an archaeologist I can tell you *we* aren’t certain. One thing we do know, though: thousands of female figurines (but almost no males) have been unearthed in Europe and the Middle East circa 10,000 – 3000 BC. Many are other-worldly – i.e. not dolls, playthings, or porn stuff. A 6000 BC figurine, for example, shows a mammoth nude flanked by two lions, seated on a throne and giving birth. Figurines are often found in temples, on shrines, or mixed among religious paraphernalia.

Another thing we know about 10,000 – 3000 BC: there was no war to speak of. Go get *How War Began,* 2004, by Keith Otterbein, professor of anthropology at SUNY, Buffalo, a director of the well-known Human Relations Area Files, and author of numerous articles on warfare.

Read it.

Here’s the mistake you and most others make about goddesses. They split into two groups. Those after 3000 BC (the date differs by area) are wimpy war-god makeovers. Many before 3000 BC appear to be Great Mother Goddesses.

In a nutshell: After 3000 BC: War gods. Wimpy make-over goddesses. Constant war. Before 3000 BC: Great Goddesses. No war gods. No war.

Go get *The Birth of the Gods and the Origins of Agriculture,* 2002, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, by archaeologist Jacques Cauvin. Read it.

I'm sure you'll agree we’d all be better off if we stuck with the war gods, the wimpy goddesses, and our constant warfare. Hee, hee.

Ms. Doniger's ignorance belies her age. I doubt that many Pagans today still believe in the prehistoric primal fertility Goddess that she describes. Ask most any Pagan and they'll say that balance and equality are key tenets of their beliefs. Hence Gods AND Goddesses. If a Pagan chooses to take a patron God or Goddess that s/he feels has called him/her, that God or Goddess is not necessarily the only on s/he worships.

And if she thinks women's storytelling "mocks men," she's either reading feminist literature from 30 years ago... or listening to men. Given the thousands of years of abject oppression, perhaps storytelling that celebrated women who triumphed over men was a sort of survival tactic, and a clever way of passing on tricks on how to avoid death, rape, or a beating.

Goddesses are a way for women to connect with something they can relate to. Something that shows them that they can be beautiful and powerful and wise. Just as Gods can show men the power and beauty and wisdom in themselves. Or vice versa, really. They aren't "angry goddesses" who seek to destroy men.

Goddesses may not be the only solution, but they are certainly part of it. Because when "God" is forever portrayed as male, there can be no equality. And when there is only "One," there can be no diversity. So tell me again, how does that promote equality?

"There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women. Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot. "

Wendy Doniger continues her cultural genocide of Indian religion/history. An observation needs universal applicability before it can be generalized or made into a law. Forget the numerous religions all through history that have worshipped goddesses, I wonder if Ms.Doniger is familiar with the Nairs of Kerala ( south india ) who have matrilineal system where women have always had equal and in some areas more rights than men. Doniger should exercise more caution before talking about proportional relations, inverse or otherwise.

I have worshipped Hindu Goddesses all my life and I fail to understand what "bloodthirsty" goddesses
doniger is referring to. India is a huge and complex country as are her religions and history.
A generalization of any sort is a fool's errand.

Wendy Doniger's scholarship and her Phd factory at University of Chicago caters to the worst stereotypes and prejudices of western views of Hinduism. Doniger's malevolent and malicious interpretations try to de-legitimize Hindu experiences. De-legitimization of a people and their experience is always a precursor to genocide.

"There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women. Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot. "

Wendy Doniger continues her cultural genocide of Indian religion/history. An observation needs universal applicability before it can be generalized or made into a law. Forget the numerous religions all through history that have worshipped goddesses, I wonder if Ms.Doniger is familiar with the Nairs of Kerala ( south india ) who have matrilineal system where women have always had equal and in some areas more rights than men. Doniger should exercise more caution before talking about proportional relations, inverse or otherwise.

I have worshipped Hindu Goddesses all my life and I fail to understand what "bloodthirsty" goddesses
doniger is referring to. India is a huge and complex country as are her religions and history.
A generalization of any sort is a fool's errand.

Wendy Doniger's scholarship and her Phd factory at University of Chicago caters to the worst stereotypes and prejudices of western views of Hinduism. Doniger's malevolent and malicious interpretations try to de-legitimize Hindu experiences. De-legitimization of a people and their experience is always a precursor to genocide.

I would say that the 'little country down south' Porrin is referring to is New Zealand, in the South Pacific. Our Prime Minister is a woman and many of the other government positions, both national and local, have been held by women in the last few years. Come and visit us when you can - you will be very warmly received, no matter what your race, religion, or gender. On the whole, our people are tolerant and accepting, and our scenery is second to none!

No, Craig, the status of women has NOT been the highest in Christendom, or Judaism, etc.

It is highest in aboriginal societies (not all of them, please note), especially the ones which trace descent in the female line and are matrilocal, meaning that partners live with or near the woman's kin, or bilocal, like many forager societies. Their religions are rarely scriptural in the sense we understand, though they usually have extremely complex oral traditions that pass their spiritual philosophies through the generations. Look into the Mosuo, Hopi, Iroquois, the Tuareg (tho they are starting to lose the matrilineage from what i read) and so on.

It is the institutional Christian church which barred women from the priesthood, persecuted Christians who didn't knuckle under, including women who preached for example, burned witches and heretics at the stake, and lots of non-witches too, preached female submission to men, on and on. There's lots of info out there, educate yourself about what really went on. Of course male supremacy also took hold among Confucians and Muslims and Hindus, but there are other types of religions out there, the indigenous ones, that rarely get talked about, and many of them have the richest and most advanced understanding to offer when it comes to appreciating, respecting and honoring women, and not subordinating them to men.

Max

For a Hindu critique on wendy doniger's work,
read:
http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/09/risa-lila-1-wendy-s-child-syndrome.htm

Bobby, re: “The belief that there is no god is a religous principle, not a scientific one because it cannot be proven. I am taking religion here as anything that is taken on faith not provable fact.”

Bobby, I haven’t yet met an atheist who was 100% certain that there are no deities (including Richard Dawkins). Most of us just don’t see any good evidence that any particular deity exists; therefore, we don’t see any good reason to believe in one or have faith in one. Atheism is not a religious principle – it does not require anything to be taken on faith. It just requires good evidence to precede belief. This is the opposite of faith.

Yes, "Equal respect for human men and women is the solution." And remember also, that religion has to evolve. My life has changed wonderfully since embracing Wicca, and the Goddess aspect. And from Wicca comes deep respect for humans. I have never appreciated being male more in my life. And I have gained a deeper respect for women; especially those who respect themselves.

Andy,

You asked how many Atheists I honestly know? that would be three I know about, including my boyfrind of 2 years, and two frinds I work with.
My statment about Divinity having no gender was not directed to you or any Atheist here, but was about the subject. As far as I'm concerned I made no assumption. No, I can't prove there is a God, and on top of that I'm not obligated to. I didn't come here to debate if theres a higher power because I havent been trying to shove my opinion down everyones throat, so the burdon is not on me try and prove anything. My Atheist friends and I have discussed our positions on many occasions and even though we don't agree, we get along fine because we all understand our opinions came from careful concideration and looking at as many viewpoints as possible. None of us just "assumed" whether or not there is a God. My issue is with people who will resort to anything to win an argument without actually caring about listening to another opinion. Calling someone weak minded and stupid is an obvious means or social control. I don't need a universal holy law to know that's counterproductive and behavior like that leads to trouble.

The article, what there was of it, leaves much to be desired, and is frankly disappointing coming from an academic. The points made by the author about "goddess feminists" would have been on target about fifteen or twenty years ago, when feminist historical revision was in vogue even among academics, but currently one would be hard pressed to find anyone pushing the "wouldn't it be great if women were still in charge" idea.

The problem illustrated by this article is that while historic research and theological arguments are both fluid, the printed word is not. Books and papers written decades ago, reflecting the research or attitudes of an individual author at that time, research and attitudes that may or may not receive wide acceptance by their intended audiences, are still being read and cited as evidence of current thinking or belief.

It's important for readers of history to understand that any given text reflects the individual researcher's interpretation of the historical evidence, an interpretation that may or may not be affected by the researcher's own personal attitudes and is therefore always open to challenge and revision. It's also important that researchers and historians who are looking into the beliefs of religious groups understand that the same processes of research, innovation and revision are at work in theological development. Beliefs that were held quite dearly twenty years ago can be completely out-moded in modern circles. Arguing a moot point is at best a waste of everyone's time, and at worst disseminates misinformation and sows confusion.

April,
The Dr. was talking about NOW, not religions of 2000 years ago. She also was very mistaken about saying Goddesses were all "blood thirsty" in the past, that is not in the least true. Another commenter has made a statement about that.

It is not that "women-good, men-bad". Goodness, my first husband was not bad all the time, and my second husband is not good all the time...and neither am I. We are all human in need of patience and mirth. But our Goddess is not blood thirsty, no more then our God is. They come together and create life...and that life is what we make it.

We make the mistake of not takeing responcibility on what we, as self aware beings, do to each other and our planet. How can we blame God or (that non-entity) Devil for what we, with free choice, do? That is what my religion teaches. Goddess gives me hope, because I see Her love and beauty all around. I do not blame Her for Katrina (men made a mild hurricane into a horrible catastrophe), or for the hungry,homelessness, or crime. It's not my Gods have done this...not in their names are laws passed or bigotry caused.

Blacks were not made and kept slaves in the name of Demeter or Hestia...gays are not kept as equal but seperate in the name of Hermes or Pan,an unjust war is not fought in the name of Athena.

Yo Yo Yo - that was a really sophmoric analysis of some non-existent "general" goddess-worship. You can't really do cross-cultural generalization of concepts of deity and their manifestations socially. If you wanna generalize, it sounds like its the human dudes who are the problem, not the she-gods

peace - OUT

Raised as a Catholic, there were many mysteries of the faith that no matter how many times I would ask for clarification, neither nuns or priests had any answers for me; only that "You are too young to understand". No one is too young to understand exclusion. Not to mention that going to Catholic school, the most respected and revered figure is the priest, and that was a profession even though I felt called to service, that by virtue of having a womb would never be allowed to fill. I was never given any answers for why, so my young mind figured that by being a female, I would never reach the level of purity to attain such a close relationship with God, so close as to concecrate bread and wine, or to absolve the sins of others, to anoint the sick, or to baptize new members of the faith. While Catholocism works for many, their idea of the divine female is the Virgin Mary, who was the ONLY woman to be born without "Original Sin". We females are to suffer the "curse" of menstruation and childbirth just because we were too "weak" as Eve to resist the temptation to taste of the fruit of ....what was it again? oh yes, KNOWLEDGE. We stupid stupid women, how dare we grasp for the apple of truth which sits right before us, and worse still, for sharing that knowldge with our male counterpart, so that he too may know of truth. I am not an atheist, nor am I anti-Catholic. I prefer not to discuss my religious beliefs, only my experience in how females may feel subjugated in religion.

ps we were to memorize the 10 commandments by the 2nd grade. I asked my teacher what Adultery was, for it was listed as a mortal sin. She would not tell me, instead she told me to ask my parents. I lived the rest of that schoolday in FEAR, thinking I would inadvertantly break that commandment and thus be condemned to an eternity at the will of the dark prince. Pretty heavy for a 2nd grader huh?

For An Dliodior, regarding "For men, religion has been about sexual greed. For women, it becomes about survival"... Really? Is that all men? All women? In all religions? And you know this how...

"...This article and the follow up discussion is premised upon a male/female dichotomy. That is not the paradigm of all people now living or throughout history. Don't get me wrong, it exists and always has but it is not always the correct analysis in understanding people and society. Feminists, of course, would argue otherwise, but feminists like to argue, don't they."

Sexuality is a basic biological function from which most animal behavior, including that of humans, flows. So physically (and sexually) speaking, yes, there is a functional basis for a dichotomous analysis.

From a spiritual standpoint, the unhappy truth is something every person, in every culture, comes to know, whether unconsciously or consciously.

The simple fact is that male and female sexual imperatives render them in opposition to each other, in varying degrees based upon culture, environmental/ecological conditions, etc.

As was pointed out, when human lifespan was short, this issue was fairly irrelevant. Now it matters much more. Because males of all species, including humans, must earn status to mate, males must use increasingly destructive measures to climb to the mountaintop, and then defend it.

For human males that entails destroying the environment to accrue a bigger income than the next guy, initiating wars to increase your oil profits...and most of all...keeping women in their place to ensure the concept of "authority" remains a masculine one, and thus attractive even in its most lowly incarnation (chief bottle washer?)

In God-the-Father's world, women attain their highest social "power" (of the sexual sort) during youth...while inexperienced and uninfluential. By the time they've figured the system out, it's too late. That's why the highest paid women in the West are...what else...useless (except to high status males) "supermodels."

But things are changing, and the death of the male God system is an encouraging sign of things to come.

Phil C, many philosophies make room for violence. Those rooted in the divine are no exception. Thus, one is not inherently better than the other. It all depends on how it's put into practice. So I ask again, have atheists proven to be less violent and repressive? Bolshivism? Maosim? Peter Singer's utilitarianism?

Good point. I understand that. I should rephrase myself then.

The belief that there is no god is a religous principle, not a scientific one because it cannot be proven. I am taking religion here as anything that is taken on faith not provable fact.
Thank you Danielle for your input.
And alot of philosophies are mistaken for religion now. It is sad that they the difference cannot be seen.

Be Blessed.
Love, Light, and Peace to All.

An Dliodoir – Religion offers an instructive guide on how to kill and hate people too, depending on the parts you read.

Atheism is the absence of belief in gods (well, hard atheism anyway), actually, so it can't, on its own, be a religion. (However, one could argue that about certain flavors of Buddhism.)

It IS a philosophy, though.

Several Things.

First: In ancient Norse Society men and women were equal in all things. If a man cheated on his wife she could divorce him and take everything and the opposite was also true. If a woman had the strength she could also go a viking, which means on the Norse raiding parties. They both had the same rights.

Second: As far as Atheism versus Religion: think about it, prove either of them, that the Divine exists or does not. Someone prove it. Aethism IS a RELIGION.

Third: In ancient religions the best sacrifice was a willing sacrifice. For the Aztecs it was a willing MAN. For the Toltecs it was a willing WOMAN. But under both it was a willing sacrifice. The sacrifice of the self is the most powerful form of sacrifice in most religions.

Fourth. Please be calm about any arguments you have. I have typed in caps for emphasis, not to yell. Please respect each other and each others beliefs. Thank you.

Be Blessed.
Love, Light, and Peace to All.

Pat - "...by muslin standard..."
Does that mean he's a man of the 'cloth' ?? LOL

Solange wrote "For men, religion has been about sexual greed. For women, it becomes about survival."

Really? Is that all men? All women? In all religions? And you know this how?

Please have the intellectual honesty to not ascribe such specific values, thoughts, and motives to people you know nothing about. You you wrote is a projection of your belief and your experience. Not that of all men and all women.

This article and the follow up discussion is premised upon a male/female dichotomy. That is not the paradigm of all people now living or throughout history. Don't get me wrong, it exists and always has but it is not always the correct analysis in understanding people and society. Feminists, of course, would argue otherwise, but feminists like to argue, don't they.

An Dliodoir said:

Danielle, do you really think it's that simple? I put to you the question, why can't Catholics adhere to an all male clergy? In the marketplace of ideas if a person doesn't like it, they can shop elsewhere. Why change a Church you don't agree with when there are others that offer what you seek? In the end, we will all find out whether our choices during life were right or wrong.

-----

Sticking with something and trying to change it, or leaving to find something else, are both reasonable options.

Has anyone figured out what country Porrin is referring to? I'm not sure why its such a secret that he can't just say. Maybe I'm a bit dim on a cold Friday morning - but if there is a place anywhere in this world where women run the whole show ... please tell me. I just might like to move there.

No, men aren't bad. Period. Some humans are bad and most are good or indifferent. I think that as a whole we forget that many of the 'oppressive' behaviors towards women are so ingrained in our lives that we don't recognize them as such. Many years ago, when I was in the Air Force, I was being considered for a position that had been for men only, but was now open to women. When I was talking to a fellow officer about it, he said the Air Force should never allow women to fly. He said it takes millions of dollars to train a pilot/navigator - why should they waste all that money and time on someone who is just going to get pregnant and leave the service in a couple of years. He really believed what he was saying. He wasn't intending to be misogynistic - but he couldn't see beyond what he had been told since childhood.

Frankly, as a woman, I know that discrimination is alive and well. Femininists are villianized because its convenient (or they are outspoken.) Think about all the ugly words to describe women who are aggressive or assertive - then try and think of words to describe men that way. The words commonly used for womean are demeaning, the words for men are uplifting and supportive - generally speaking. Discrimination is built into our language.

Best plan: Power of the Individual! Let us each be judged by the person we are - not just colour, nationality, language, religion, gender, etc. (which are only part of what makes us who we are) Let us each be held RESPONSIBLE for the actions, qualities and potential we individually have.

Sadly, I now return you to the real world.

For DOG: Menstruation is mother nature's way of renewing women's bodies, so they may continue to pick and choose sexual partners according to their own needs, rather than a set fertility cycle. It is the detritus from contact with males which is being "cleansed" each month.

As we see from male-religions' characterization of this natural function, it's all about perspective...when religion is written by males, it reflects to their advantage.

Male-derived religions often point to bodily functions, particularly menstruation, or their socioeconomic implications (like childrearing) to justify encoding gender disparities.

As Leslene Della Madre eloquently noted, we know, today, that chromosonally speaking, males constitute a sort of "incomplete" female genetic profile. But the major world religions were born in economic conditions which favored those who do not care for children. This is from whence "man as the head of the family" ideologies flow.

Every male-created religion you can cite will reflect as its foundation anxiety over that most important center of male existance -- the overriding concern that forms the foundation of all male-created religions: sexual advantage and access.

As we know from all the major religions, male access to sex trumps the care of children and other community members, women of course, and the environment...all are superseded by the pursuit of the all encompassing male need to procreate, and prevent other males from procreating.

That's why women, globally, are in the process of rejecting male-derived "religious" ideologies, to achieve "equality;" reject "family" oriented plans that retard female spirituality and destroy our environment; and care for our children and community.

For men, religion has been about sexual greed. For women, it becomes about survival.

I have learned that the Shakers are a remarkable sect, due to their belief in the total equality of male and female. Even so far as believing God is both male and felmale. Their beliefs do not allow them to marry (or procreate), thus the only way to become a Shaker is to convert. Sadly, there are only 4 of them left. Nevertheless they have managed to remain as a religious sect for over 100 years. The reason for this is that they accepted and utilized the intelligence, inspiration,and marketing know-how of both their men and women equally. If it weren't for the ladies they'd never have survived 10 years.

Danielle, do you really think it's that simple? I put to you the question, why can't Catholics adhere to an all male clergy? In the marketplace of ideas if a person doesn't like it, they can shop elsewhere. Why change a Church you don't agree with when there are others that offer what you seek? In the end, we will all find out whether our choices during life were right or wrong.

Until they can become clergy in the catholic church, they won't be getting the respect that they deserve.

You'd think that the Vatican could pay attention to its own Scripture:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Wow! Lots of blogging on this! Keep it up-it's an argument religions-(Christian)- need to address.
I don't believe the resurgence of Mary Magdalene or the findings and interpretation of the St. Judas writings (found in 200) are accidental at all. I think women are finally getting the respect they deserve in religion-especially Catholicism. Mary Magdalenes' "gnostic" writings say alot about the Holy Spirit-and about opening yourself up to what God wants for each of us. A powerful message-especially for women-who get spouses dreams and the wants of thier families put on them-essentially, "losing themselves" as they make decisions "to keep the peace" in thier families-instead of fighting for what THEY want.
No. Christianity, this is no accident-loosen the grip-the world will be a better place for it.
Beth in Cary

Women are DOGs, how else to explain something that can bleed for days & not die, just not natural. Please quite spelling my name backwords.

DOG

Unfortunately, the panelist is only half-right, in part because she generalizes about religions with which she is not familiar.

She is right about how there was no universal world-wide goddess worship going on.

However, she is wrong about how goddess-worship ultimately led to stronger social penalties against women, as has been noted by some of the posters here.

She also ignores that modern goddess-worship has been empowering for women in an age where, in many countries, one is generally free to make one's own religious choices without fear of retribution.

As a reverend, I can attest to the benefits that recognizing and empowering goddesses has for both men and women, particularly for those who convert from religions in which women are unequal.

I suggest that, considering she is a teacher, the panelist familiarize herself with the religions about which she speaks, and the concept of correlation not equaling causation. By selectively choosing to only discuss instances in which goddess-worship has been negative -- and it has not been universally so -- and by, accidentally or deliberately, distorting how goddesses are portrayed in several religions, she paints a distorted picture of the issue and contributes in her own way to the unequal treatment of women in religion.

Peace be upon you all,

I would like to just say that people really need to understand what the real role of women and men are. I believe it's completely turned around these days. Society has tremendously affected the "role" of a "modern woman". If we look to the nature of woman, we can learn alot about actually what's best for the woman. Yea there will always be those woman that have masculine nature about them but Iam talking about woman in general. In general woman gear more towards their traditional role as a mother. Which is also the most important role in any society. Unfortunately most so called modern woman have been driven away from this most prestigious role of being a mother. Woman make families, families are foundation to communities, villages, cities....countries and sooo on.

Just thought about what I mentioned earlier (Bruce -9.47). Woman and man were equals, including as gods/godesses, because average age of humans barely reached 35. Young people just love each other, consider themselves equals, the real ying-yang balance. When average age increases man consider themselves superior, have many wifes, mistresses, work, make the money, politics, while the woman just cooks the meals, cleans the house and raises the kids.

"Men SHOULD develop a healthy fear and respect of a woman's power."

Posted by MomMadona on January 18, 2007 10:28 PM
____________________

Reverse the genders and you sound just like a fundamentalist. How can we ever strive to be on respectful terms if we continue to promote hypocrisy? Look in your own mirror to see what you are reflecting before talking about "power."

The Moslem Religion has evolved over thousands of years and didn't just come from Mohammed or the old testament. The main, rounded, with varies entries structures are really the woman's stomach and vagina(s) while pregnant and the long raised structure(s) is the man's enlarged penis. Noone ever talks about that, certainly not the moslims where the man is considered highly superior to the woman, but those are the facts. As such the old religions considered man and woman equal and looked at the here and now, the present, that what is physically here - not heaven or eternity. Since all religions are manmade it is interesting why primitive religions such as the above, or European or Greek or African religions considered the woman as an equal or often a superior entity and why during the evolution of Islam and Christianity this changed to the man only like God, Jesus, Mohammed, Pope, Bishops, Protestant Ministers, etc. Why did a woman loose all strenght these past 2000 years? What happened?

As a Wiccan priestess who honors the Deities (both Gods and Goddesses) as the cultural masks of the forces of nature, I agree with your assessment that there are bloodthirsty Goddesses as well as benevolent, and that women don't have any more of a handle on compassion than men. Feminism, to me, means that we acknowledge women as having equally useful traits and talents as men, NOT that we are equal in all ways. We're not; that's a ludicrious idea.

Anyone who believes that matriarchal, peaceful Goddess-loving folks first ruled should read Cynthia Eller's "Matriarchal Prehistory: Why An Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future."

Time to stop blaming the "evil patriarchy" and start honing our personal skills in the present.

I felt that Porrin was perfectly describing Canada, where women do indeed run everything in law, education, and media. Canada is a nation that has gone completely mad with political correctness and thought control, and the feminists have been the cause of it all. And if any man stands and tries to defend himself, then he is completely destroyed. I know, for it happened to me.

In her book "The Difference," Judy Mann suggested that paternalistic religions lead to patriarchal socieities. Specifically, when deity is defined as male, both genders learn to value the masculine at the expense of the feminine. Mann wrote that these religions give males a false sense of entitlement, teaching them from an early age that they are little gods who can do anything they want to females.

Now, if the dominant religions were maternalistic, would that lead society to value the feminine at the expense of the masculine? I suppose that's possible, especially if the deity were the feminine equivalent of the Abrahamic idea of God as a Supreme Being parental authority figure. In practice, however, I've noticed that the alternatives to paternalistic religions seem to place equal value on both genders, or at least on the different qualities of both genders.

A question - why does deity have to be a certain gender at all? Many of the Gnostics believe in a dualistic God that embodied both masculine and feminine qualities. Pantheism doesn't assign a gender to God.

"Successful sacrifices to the gods almost always involves the sacrifice of a young woman, a virgin for the god involved to enjoy, all gods are male or gay females I guess."

Evidence. Lots of evidence for boy sacrifice - Carthage for instance and myths are full of references to boy sacrifice - Gwern, Isaac, Dionysus, etc.

Sacrificing the beautiful virgin female seems to me to be a Hollywood fantasy.

If everyone rejected all religion most people wouldn't be able to handle it and would find a new unscrupulous guru or cult to follow. Others would turn their atheism into a religion of scientism.

A small minority of people would manage to be genuinely rational atheists, and maybe they would discover that there are good reasons for religions to exist.

Let's not belittle anyone's religious experience. They are far too common to be swept under the carpet, but also not let theocrats supress any religious beliefs, when men and women can talk openly about mystical experiences, perhaps then we will get theological equality

Well Bob, if your rantings were true, then all atheists would be better people than all religious. That is not the case, thus religion can be an instructive guide to how to live and treat other people.

Are you threatened by people that aren't just like you Bob? Do you ignore all the horrible things done in the name of science and reason and progress? Atheists can be bad humans too Bob, but living with yourself, you probably know that all too well.

ONE of the commenters has mentioned the fact of the high correlation between women's freedoms and high Biblical ("Judeo-Christian") influence in societies. ONE spoke of a promiscuous woman's need of finding the DNA of her partners in order to ascertain the paternity of a particular child of hers. And ONE presented men's "asymmetrical" disadvantage in knowing parenthood: though the (non-promiscuous) wife knows her child's paternity as well as her maternity, her husband would need to know the child's DNA in order to be sure of his paternity. But NONE have addressed the question of what new societal arrangements would equalize female/male assurance of parenthood--an equality which the old societal arrangements approximated and which the new individual equalities have weakened. Men now have more fear of being cuckolds supporting other men's children and less interest in being husbands.

Dear Jennifer, be truthful. I'm going to answer your question. I'm 45 years old and i don't personally know any atheist. I am an atheist. How many atheist do you really know? 0 The presuption always comes from religious people not atheists. The proof is in your statement. Divinity goes beyond gender. You assume a divinity or a God, atheist don't. The truth is that you can't prove the existence of a God. You presume there is a God. That is not proof. Prove the existance of God. You can't.

Porrin you are an idiot. In what country do you live where woman control everything? Since you can spell in English we must assume you are in an English speaking country. Please tell us so we can send the Delta Force to rescue you.

I mentioned this study to a lady I was dating and she said it was justified because women want the best genes or was that jeans? It's what my buddy calls the "uterus factor". Women think the whole world revolves around their uterus. I don't think that flys very far anymore in the very over populated world on the brink of exhausting its resources.
The other side of the coin:
I once saw a cartoon entitled "World Without Men"
Three very plus size women are watching the news. The anchor is saying: "There was no crime again today." One woman is passing a big piece of cake to another women.

Nobody is perfect.

Women and men each have their good and bad points however women have several advantages over men. Have you noticed that girls get taller quicker than boys at an earlier age? Did you know that men have trouble reading a woman's face to determine her emotional state (happy, sad, mad, etc) while women have the ability to just look at a man and know what he is thinking.
Heidi Klum was recently quoted as saying: "Men just have lousy poker faces", but it a biologicial distinction that has been proved by testing.
It just ain't a level playing field.

Anonymous I recently saw a movie called the Monsun Wedding. It illustrated your culture and beliefs. It was a good movie. What i also saw was the impact of society on the individual person. This happens in all cultures and it is wrong. Men view the world through strength, woman (correctly)view it through diplomacy. Woman are stronger than men in every sence except physical strength. A woman can make a man cry just by questioning his manhood.

And women call us sexists?

Are Short Men at a Disadvantage in Romance?
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=230011&page=1

Ask any woman: Men who are 5-foot-9 — that's average — or taller clearly have it over their more compact cousins.

And it turns out a man's height has always helped him get to first base. Nearly 10 years ago, 20/20 concocted a test to illustrate an indisputable rule of love: height matters.

20/20 recruited men tall and short and put them in lineups behind a two-way mirror, then invited groups of women to look at the lineup and choose a date. The women were told various positive things about the shorter men — the men were described as having interesting careers, impressive educational pedigrees or a lot of money. The women always chose the tall men.

Nothing succeeded in making them prefer the shorter men. One woman even suggested that 20/20 describe the tall men as "murderers" to even the odds for the shorter men in the test.

Look around the world. Where are human rights, correct education, and even the freedom of secularism most valued? In cultures whose heritage is Judaeo-Christian. Jewish and Christian scriptures like nothing else have produced a dynanism that leads to dignity and freedom.

Only Human Rights,Secularism and Correct Education can value Women

I just have one question: where in the world have women experienced the most freedom? Has it not been in cultures whose heritage has been Judeo-Christian? Certainly Hindu, Muslim, Bhuddhist, atheistic, etc., cultures have not come close to producing the same freedom for women. Why? Judeo-Christian scripture places a dynanism in the human soul that cannot be denied or quenched.

You can skip everything to "The competative nature of human sperm" kinda of deep into the rant.

KRamsey:
Judging from your comment there's something deeply psychologically, female type hidden in the 2 to 20 men "who's the father" scenario.

Try http://www.hoax-buster.org/sex After you get past the homosexual part it get's to a point of interest about multiple males with a single female.

This is a sad commentary when a woman professor in a school of divinity says there is no point in women worshipping the Goddess. There is no need for a woman to find anything sacred or holy in being reflected back to her in a form that looks like her. Don't give us the caca that G-d is formless, sexless, etc... The church has made darn sure there is precious little in today's Christianity that reflects the scaredness and divinity of women in form or ritual.

It is also a sad commentary on her knowledge of Wicca, Druidry, what today's current pagan community feels and sees. G-d would not allow anything unnatural in the world - even the creation of existence depends on the duality of man AND woman. The Gnostics got it right way back then. Dr. Doniger, Mary Daly would say "shame on you" and so do I.

"Goddesses are not, therefore, the solution. Equal respect for human men and women is the solution.

Posted by Wendy Doniger on January 18, 2007 10:07 AM

Au contraire, my dear.

Point of fact: KALI!

Men SHOULD develop a healthy fear and respect of a woman's power. They wouldn't be BORN and they wouldn't have SURVIVED without it.

Can I just request that we all make an effort to proofread our submissions here?

We come close to offering sensible dialogue periodically, but then drop the ball with untraceable grammar.

ENRONHUBBARD:
Judge not least ye be judge: man of no humor.

Insane is rather harsh coming from a man living in a fantasy world.

Why do most women still seem to prefer tall muscular men with dark hair to shorter balding less muscular men?

Why do women feel short men should endure more loneliness? Do they feel the same about shorter plumper women?

Come on!

Well, Dr. Doniger, at least we can agree that equality between men and women is a good thing. As for the rest... you can never give more than a deceptive picture of Goddess veneration by using male-dominated scriptural traditions as your sole example, and you are certainly unjustified in implying that the highly patriarchal brahmanic religion is representative of the vast and varied scope of goddesses worldwide.

"In fact, when men as well as women do worship goddesses, as they have done for centuries in many parts of India, the religious texts and rituals clearly express the male fear of female powers, and the male authors of those texts therefore make even greater efforts to control women, as if to say, “god help us all if these naturally powerful women get political power as well.”

"There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women."

This is a huge and illogical leap. As you must know, the picture even for India is much more diverse, particularly if you take the Adivasi/aboriginal cultures into account, or even some of the patariarchy-subverting Tantras that Michael Kinsley writes about, where Parvati or Kali resist Shiva's attempt to dominate and awe him with their primal and unlimited power.

I also think you can't get away with ignoring the fact that Goddess veneration was persecuted systematically by the Abrahamic religions, vacating female images of the Sacred.

"Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot."

This claim is often made, but once you step beyond India, or Anat and Ishtar, and go for a more global picture, then you end up with Spider Grandmother, Isis, Frau Holle, the Shawnee Creatrix, and blood-sacrifice is nowhere in sight. In fact most of the goddesses rites call for bread, milk, honey, corn, and so on.

What does it serve to perpetrate such inaccurate over-generalizations? Why not look beyond the dominant religions, and find out that the Dreaming of humans is much broaded and richer than the same old demonized stereotypes played out over and over.

Max

Kay: You toss out...

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe men commit over 90% of the violence worldwide."

Do you, or would anyone here, happen to know what percentage of men are causing that violence? And what percentage are not interested in violence?

Does anyone know what men do while not causing violence? like, perhaps...much of the world's work?

Aren't most men hapless subjugates just trying to survive?

Is it les of a contribution for a man to not cause violence than for a woman to not cause violence?

I've never hit anyone and still really don't want to. I walk away from fights like most people–male or female. Where's my mark of superiority for that?

How is it that all the Atheists I've met personally are the most respectful, tolorent people I know, while so many of the Atheist comments I read online are idiotic. Let me get see if I get this. You can't say "I don't believe in that for this reason" you have to say "everyone who believes in anything at all is stupid and weak." Sorry, but that's presumptuous. My Pagan beliefs and practices are pretty instinctual to me. Can't stand tall unless your standing on someones back?

Divinity goes beyond gender.

Spoken like a true moron. As if it's that simple. While stupid people like you make believe some crazy fundamentalist in the White House who thinks Jesus was a great philosopher and who talks to god every day has killed an estimated 600,000 Arabs since he invaded Iraq. Most of them women and children. But oh no, religion, had nothing to do with that. Nothing to do with the motives -- greed, oil, power -- nothing to do with the crock of lies used to pander to the stupid who believe in Jesus, god and crusades. I'm not belittingly faith. Faith is for jerks who are too lazy to think for themselves, I'm belittling the jerks.

If the only purpose for the worship of the Feminine Divine, of Goddess, was to raise the political/societal status of women, then indeed the ancient Goddess worshipping civilizations did not succeed. And neither does a prominent modern example, Hindu India.

But this is not the only—and certainly not the most important—reason why we acknowledge (and some of us worship) the Feminine Divine, the Goddess.

The reason is Divine Truth. And the Truth is that the Divine expresses Itself in both masculine AND feminine ways. There is therefore no reason at all why we cannot envision It with both a masculine and a feminine face. And while women in particular benefit spiritually when they have a Divine image to which they can relate on a heart level, an image in which they can see themselves reflected, BOTH women AND men need and respond to Goddess—whether we call Her Mary or Isis or Parvati. We all need our Divine Mother AND our Divine Father. Without both, our image of the Divine, and, as a consequence, any understanding of the Divine that we may hope to have, is woefully incomplete.

I agree with Athena that Prof. Doniger (O’Flaherty) seems to have a limited understanding of modern Goddess worship. Yes, there were some early and neophyte-enthusiastic Goddess worshippers who claimed the reality of some kind of primordial Goddess paradise, but with time and better research, most Goddess worshippers today understand that as a mythic truth rather than an historical fact. Just like Biblical Eden.

As for the argument that men who worship Goddesses only do so because they're frightened of Feminine Powers and their fear makes them further repress human women—puh-leeeeze. Men do not need the excuse of Goddesses to repress women. Can we say Taliban, boys and girls? Can we say Promise Keepers, for that matter?

Further, there is no "inverse ratio" between the worship of Goddesses and women's rights. There is NO ratio. These things are independant of each other. The ancient Greek may have been a passionate worshipper of Demeter, but he would still confine his wife to the house and wouldn't educate his daughter—not because he worshipped a Goddess Whom he feared, but because he was a man in a patriarchal society and that's what you did.

And then we come to the statement that just makes me sigh sadly: "Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot." What a broad, inaccurate, and religiously intolerant brush we are painting with!

While human beings have always recognized the fierce aspects of the Divine, both God and Goddess—there are War Gods and War Goddesses, and Jehovah is happy to sacrifice your first-born, raze villages, or smite you for some minor infraction—we human beings have always sought our Deities' compassionate natures above all. And the Divine Mothers are supremely compassionate. One need look no farther than "A" in their Dictionary of Goddesses to find abundant examples.

Goddess may not be the solution to women's rights, but neither is worship of male Deity alone. Women's rights are political; Goddess worship is spiritual. They don't depend on each other. And the reasons put forth in this article for denying the worship of Goddess seem to me very poor reasons indeed.

Under Her Wings,
Isidora Forrest

Excuse me, April, some folks were attacking the author for her lack of authenticity. Sure, she stepped on my toes, because I am, indeed, a High Priestess, but I also carry a BA in Religious Studies (looking at the whole picture, with a desire to get my MA and eventually my PhD). So um, it come as a surprise to know that she was "shootin' from the hip." There were quite a few ancient Goddess oriented factions: the worship of Atep (Isis) in ancient Egypt was extremely prevalent, the worship of Hestia in the home was an everyday rite in Hellas, the Elusian Mysteries of Hellas, just to name a few of the well known (at least to the more educated). Also, none of these Goddess traditions were really keen on violence as a part of their ritual life. So, she's wrong. You're wrong. Sorry.

As for the whole "religion is stupid" schtick that I'm hearing more and more... Who cares. You guys are almost more annoying than the right wing fundamentalists. Typically, NeoPagans, are just fine with scientific research and discovery, as long as it doesn't encroach upon the life and well being of this planet. So your attempt to make yourselves look "cutting edge," "brilliant" and "the heroes of the world" by belittling those with faith is really ultimately going to make you (and you know who are) look like an ass. We aren't out here to convince you of anything, and couldn't give a damn what you think of us. So, discover away, be sure and give us a good article on it. In the end, you still don't really know much of anything. So, who cares whether people believe or not as long as they use it as an excuse for stupidity? Mind your ownd friggin' business.

Religion is a complete waste of time, regardless of gender. Only the weak, the terrorized, the stupid, the useless, seek out the jibberish and nonsense that give one a feeling of comfort and 'mommie love me' security at the expense of misery, murder, and unparalleled human suffering. Religion is a sickness that has to be done away with as soon as possible.

Any thinking person with the courage to simply live and die an honest human existence instinctively knows this to be true. Only cowards love god.

Ms Wendy Doniger is the only genuine woman I have seen in a photo who doesn't show her teeth. She looks real.

Jen
Anna has already thanked me kindly for clearing up the matter. You are obviously in the dark about your so-called Western alliance. Did you think I was referring to Ireland?

Nevermind.

You might be interested that in Buddhism, the divine is seen as being basically beyond gender because a fully awakened being (ie: a Buddha) has the best qualities of both male and female.

In some iconography, the male Buddha represents compassion and the female wisdom, and their 'union' (non-physical in nature) produces bliss, a state beyond duality, limitation, and suffering.

So the goal is to encourage development of the best in each of us, to live in peace and mutual respect, and work to overcome all forms of suffering of all beings.

The person produced by thinking in this way and aspiring to these goals becomes productive, peaceful and happy, whether the goal is achieved or not. Male and female--equal, different, complementary.

The old Tibetan texts posit 4 genders: male in male body, male in female body, female in female body, and female in male body. How logical! how far beyond simple biology. We can go beyond biology, can't we?

cah

When it comes to real fundamentals, it seems that no one really addresses them. If we were taught correctly in school about biology, we would all know that life tends towards femaleness and that we are first all female in the womb. We would know that the X chromosome is 4-5 times larger than the Y and that the Y chromosome cannot repair itself (i.e., cannot recombine with another Y, which, if it does, is lethal) and we would then be able to infer from these facts that something about female primalness is true. We would know that first cells divide asexually--I would say parthenogenetically--and that they are referred to the mother/daughter cells and that all life begins this way. So, would it be so hard, then, for early people, and later people, for that matter (the word "matter" comes from "mater", meaning "mother"), to extrapolate from the very essence of our cellular structure to find reflection of this in the outer world? And wouldn't that, then, be a female reflection of all that is? God as female essence, the ungendered feminine, as the Bengali poet, Ramprasad, put it some 300 years ago. Astrophysicists are currently theorizing about this--do you know of the Mother Universe theory? Dr. Richard Gott theorizes that the Mother Universe has always been/always will be and She gives birth to daugher universes, which beautifully reflects the original reproduction from autosomes--parthenogenesis. So, the worship of goddesses as such isn't necessary. We are Goddess/God, primal femaleness. We don't need to worship anything. And we don't need to argue about worshipping either, since we don't need to externalize our divinity. We are THAT--primal femaleness. All of us, though some would aruge that the Y chromosome is a mutation.

The problem of disrespect has emerged from the deep insecurity of men's fear of their own lack which is then projected onto women. Of course we all need to respect each other. If, in an office, you find women who aren't very nice, please remember that they have internallzed their oppression and have had their culture stripped from them, The rules of patriarchy abide, and in that, women have no space of our own. It makes us totally stressed, to the point where most women do not produce enough progesterone, which is the "feel good" hormone, the one that softens. So, blaming women for their hardness is not intelligent. Understanding where it comes from and how to remedy it (in my opinion, bioidentical hormones help immensely), and not colluding with the forces that want us to hate ourselves, is a much more life-affirming activity. And please remember, in analyzing attributes of goddesses (i.e., "bloodthirsty"), please be sure you are not describing a misunderstood patriarchal rendition of an earlier mystery.

www.wildfireforwomyn.com

Religion - what can I say? The one thing that they all have in common (except for the Wiccans) is their desire to dominate women. Theism just isn't the thing for me. The Bible was written by men and for men. It's time for women to abandon it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe men commit over 90% of the violence worldwide. Of course, women are increasing their rates of violence.

There is nothing more entertaining than listening to a bunch of men whining about how bad they have it. Keep it up!

The author of this article seems to want to lump every neo-Pagan in with the Dianics as well as try to convince her audience that neo-Pagans see our Gods in the same light as the ancients did. Shame on you for not telling the whole truth! Most Pagans, including myself, worship both Gods and Goddesses. Most of us do not believe in violence unless in self defense. With the majority of us having these beliefs, how could the author associate us all with the beliefs of a small Pagan sect? That's just ridiculous and irresponsible. The honest thing to do is look at the big picture, and sadly the author of this article refuses to do so.

I am a Priestess of Hecate and Hades. In all honesty I am closer to my patron God than I am to my matron Goddess. I do not love one more than the other...the closeness is just a natural thing that happened. I honor all the Gods and Goddesses of the Greek pantheon. When I need healing, I go to Lord Asceplius. When I need help with managing my home life, I talk to Mother Hera. I hope you see my point. One can not look at Dianics and get a clear picture of modern neo-Pagan beliefs and practices. They are the minority, sorry, but that's the truth. Your average Pagan woman wants to be respected, but respects men in return. Your average Pagan woman worships both the male and female divine. Your average Pagan is peaceful, kind and intelligent.

It wearies me sometimes, people picking out a portion of a group of others and saying, "This is how they all are!" Dishonesty is disgusting and degrading to the human intellect. It has no place in a spiritual person's soul.

Blessings to All people with good hearts.

Carissa the Chthonic

This author seems to be saying that a goddess is no good ("no solution") unless she's compassionate and sweet.

Like, perhaps, the Virgin Mary?

ENRONHUBBARD: This would necessarily include you as well, no?

You can't possibly concerned that the postings have digressed from the initial entry? That digression is the embarrassing ultimate function of the OnFaith column.

I get it -- "men bad" "women good" . . . it's all very simple isn't it? And of course no man should take that personal.

These blogs seem to bring out the nut jobs every time!

what on earth is a "legally ordained" Wiccan priestess? Where is that "legal"?

Women have been oppressed by religions AND non -religions since the dawn of time. But today, you won't know that in the U.S. where women wield more power than the average man. Men or women, as a species, we both suck; male or female, all people suffer from exploitation by their leaders (some infamous exploiters of the masses: Cleopatra, Queen Victoria, Elizabeth). As for Jen: Why pick on Buddhism? Kiddie porn is a Western invention, not Asian. There are hundreds of thousands of underage kids serving as prostitutes in Catholic and Muslim nations, too! Where you get off (and I'm a Catholic) picking on one religion? Blame it on ALL religions! Finally, adults have been having sex with underage girls since the caveman. The sole difference today is that there are laws forbidding it. Yet, it still goes on. Old habits ... Reasons: Procreation, companionship, dominance, excitement, innocence, taboo. Exploitation is just that and it don't matter if the victim is a child or a grandmother; they both get screwed ... err, I mean taken advantage of.

Your point about men fearing women's "natural powers" is well taken -- only women, after all, can bring forth life.

In order to control a population, women's reproductive abilities must be controlled. However, this can have unintended consequences -- see China's "surplus" of young men caused by female infanticide. Talk about a time bomb. Perhaps they are and their close neighbors India, also know for its progressive sex selection practices can engage in a nice, bloody ground war to "consume" their surpluses.

Now that science has demonstrated the ability to produce sperm from eggs, fearful men everywhere must really be twitterpated. Men are now superfluous.

By the by, I am a man.

Why is the internet exclusively populated by the the insane? cf. DICK, NEO, etc.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0701.htm

Actually, I very much aspire to the belief that a fundamental aspect of the universe is the concepts of Yin and Yang which originated in ancient Chinese philosophy and metaphysics and describes two primal opposing but complementary forces found in all things in the universe.

However, I no longer agree with this concept when it comes to men and women. What I have learned are two things: 1) walk slowly, those high heels are hard to walk in, and 2) the second most tragic thing that can happen to a woman is that she breaks a nail. I don't know what the first most important thing is.

I know you will all tell me to take a hike, and you should because I'm off topic and off base, but really, what I have learned is that while a man cannot always keep a woman happy, he certainly should never make her mad (I wish I could follow my own advice).

Above article summaries my current view of the male/female situation.
Bye for now.

Most men don't own any weapons of any kind and have never wanted to.

Most men never hit anyone and go to extraordinary lengths to avoid situations where they are expected to.

Most men never start wars of any kind.

Most men are not CEO's, never have been, never will be, and never want to be. Nor do they aspire to dominate, belittle or control their fellow employees at work, sister, daughters or mothers, bank tellers or wait staff when they go out to eat.

Most men–if not nearly all– have always considered rape so far beyond unthinkable that even the thought of offending a woman on any level when expressing affection, appreciation or gratitude for a woman's charm, beauty or intellect crushes the whole of their most honest sentiments often into complete inaction and withdrawal.

Most men, nonetheless, by early adulthood have been visciously accused of insensitivity regarding rape and have had (and will continue to) to convince women they felt they had respecting and equitable relationships with that they would not or have not raped a woman.

Women have no ability to love 'greater' or 'more compassionately' than those dreaily unfortunate enough to be born with the curse of a penis.

My father never said a bad word about my mother or my sister as long as he has lived. Both my mother and sister have criticized and belittled him behind his back since I was old enough to remember. He has always paid for every aspect of both of their lives and not once has complained.

My mother made it clear from early in my childhood that a) men are unable to show emotion and b) she did not like to be touched or hugged by any of us except on annual special occasions when others were present.

And yet my entirely "Male" heart continues to love, respect, and forigive her, reminding myself–as trillions of men have done for millenia and will continue to do–of our own humility as humans/god's children/etc.

Women are not heroes nor are they 'strong'. They are human. Many outspoken feminists work–as our world shows continuously necessary–to enact quality where it cruelly recedes, yet sever themselves from their own souls and saw their legs off in their enthusiastic abandonment of humility. As if any notion of humility or questioning of righteousness constites making a larger space for misogyny.

God Religion: Fear, Oppression, Concept of Original Sin, Separation

Goddess Religion: Love, Freedom, Concept of Natural Goodness, Oneness

Regardless of the "facts" you decide to believe, which religion would you chose?

>>>

Grian, it looks like you have a very narrow view of one or two particular "god religions" and a very narrow view as well of "goddess religion"

>>>

Most, if not all cultures at some point have, or still do worship both gods and goddesses. This is not the same as the popular feminist myth of ancient matriarchy, which has no proveable basis

>>>

No more or less so than the men.

>>>

again, no more or less so than gods.

Is this news to this lady? Any one who has studied even socialology 101 knows that this is the way religion controls women. Why is this big revealantion?

We would all live more peaceful, fulfilling lives if we gave up all religion/mythology. The truth is that the gods and goddesses were all created after our own human image and mind. They are violent, jealous, spiteful, and petty at times and loving, forgiving, and generous at other times. Just like people. A person would do better to look for human role models and teachers - those who are as good as a human can be. I would like to see an end to religious intolerance, oppression, and hatred. How long do we continue this unproductive preoccupation with ancient religions and which one possesses the one truth? To me religion is only of value as historical and literary study - not as a belief system upon which to base how and why I live.

PORRIN: As an average American, I have no frickin' idea what "little country down south" you mean. No, I'm not joking. And calling it a "mini England" doesn't help either. I'd rather not attempt to build what will probably be a poorly designed Google search based on your cryptic comments, and instead get a straight answer from you. Are there so few Porrins with internet access in your country that you fear identification and retribution?

ANONYMOUS HINDU: Perhaps Ms. Doniger was referring to passages such as this one from the Mahabharata:
"There is nothing else that is more sinful than women. Truly, women are the root of all faults. ... Women, even when possessed of husbands having fame and wealth, of handsome features and completely obedient to them, are prepared to disregard them if they get the opportunity."

Sound familiar, Christians?

Buddhists may believe in yin/yang male/female balance, but one look at the horrible sexual exploitation of poor underage girls in places like Thailand and Cambodia shows just how much sway that idea has in real life.

Thank you Lisa.

LISA V: I'm intrigued by your ideas, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Im sorry to not have godesses so men feel better is stupid .if men want to be sacardy cats let them. why should we protect them from inappropiate fear!!!!!! THAT WOULD MAKE US PUPPETS AND IM NO PUPPET FOR SACARED MEN. TELL THEM TO GROW UP.. THIS MIGHT HELP WOMAN STOP PROTECTING SICKO MEN WITH FEAR PROBLEMS., THAT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT ON WOMAN. GROW UP BOYS!!!!

I am sure the massive Athena cult in the U.S. has just been dealt a death blow by Prof. Doniger. What would we do without warnings against goddess-worship?

Y'all are hysterical. Its not about the gonads, its about the mush between the ears. Religions are power structures. They represent nearly unparallelled authority for the people in charge, wither they stand up or sit down to urinate.

Power corrupts, and power structures attract the corruptable into their ranks by offering them a means to their end.

Do me a favor, pull up your pants and pay attention to the goddamned problem at hand.

The author's addressing the misleading beliefs promoted by many contemporary wiccans and goddess-worshipers that goddess-centered religion has historically been: a)prominent; and b) gender-equal. The evidence she raises is absolutely accurate, and no one here at the time I'm posting this has even addressed that argument in their criticisms.

I wouldn't tell an economist or political scientist they didn't know what they were talking about because it didn't add up to my personal economic experience. I appreciate that it's a topic so many people are interested in, but as in any academic field of study, it's not a topic that everyone's opinions are equally right about. If you're not speaking from an informed position, there's not much use criticizing the author because you don't like the implications of what she's saying. Argue against it based on evidence.

rofl

those who say men are bad and women are not never spent six years of perimenopause with my ex-wife

KRAMSEY you watch Maury Povich? lolz.

This article only proves that Ms. Doniger has absolutely no conception of who the Goddess is and the spiritual ideas She represents.

God Religion: Fear, Oppression, Concept of Original Sin, Separation

Goddess Religion: Love, Freedom, Concept of Natural Goodness, Oneness

Regardless of the "facts" you decide to believe, which religion would you chose?

J. Molay: I guess you haven't watched Maury Povich's show where anywhere between 2 and 20+ men are tested for paternity because the woman isn't sure...guess I'm making the case for patriarchy's need to control women (without meaning to).

I would think relegating women's rights to religious debate is unneccessary and the responsibility of women's right's should be placed at the feet of society and not societies religious beliefs.

This argument is no different than observing women's rights by muslin standard, by my view. Unacceptable

I failed to mention that a successful sacrifice to the god(s) involves getting whatever it was in exchange for the sacrifice, volcano stop errupting, flooding stop, etc. Otherwise the sacrifice comes under the heading of a limited success. Gods do prefer women to men of course, a given and no doubt why women are more spiritual, looking to be sacrificed to the gods.

I do agree with Doniger's comment about "naturally powerful women," but my perspective is very different than hers. A key weakness of modern power-oriented feminism is that it conveniently overlooks the fact that women ALRREADY have a lot of power--personal, sexual and domestic power that has been wielded quite arbtrarily against men. Men have every right to be wary of that power. For instance, a man naturally has a vested interest in knowing that the children born to his wife are in fact his own children. There is an obvious assymmetry here in that a woman readily knows which children are her own.

Women have wielded much political power in the past, even in ancient times, such as during the Roman Empire (especially the late Empire when male rulers were often very young and incompetent). However, such power could be very dangerous, as when the West Roman Emperor Valentinian's daughter, Honoria, invited Attila the Hun to invade the Empire in order to free her from a marriage engagement she didn't like. Attila did, in fact use this as a pretext to attack the Roman Empire in 451 AD. She was lucky that her mother, Galla Placidia (herself a politically powerful woman), saved her from being executed by Valentinian.

Now, in the present day, we see how the infamous Hillary Clinton carefully calibrates her political positions, such as on the war in Iraq, in order to maximize her power in gaining the Democratic nomination for President.

Successful sacrifices to the gods almost always involves the sacrifice of a young woman, a virgin for the god involved to enjoy, all gods are male or gay females I guess.

One odd thing about Christianity is the sacrifice of a male, and insult to a regular god. But then the oddness of that sacrifice to god exculates dramatically. The male that is sacrificed just happens to be the son of the god to which the sacrifice was made. Was that a sacrifice or a warning? See what we can do to your kid and guess who's next, a bit of in your face.

Being a man, if a woman wants to subject herself to a fiction-based philosophy that requires her submission to a man, that's fine by me - gimme that ol' time religion. I just can't understand why a woman would willingly place herself in such a position. Then again, I can't understand why anyone would submit to any fiction-based authority. Anyone doing so gets exactly what they deserve.

All religions are equally false. By extension, all social structures based on religion are inherently flawed.

Porrin -- Thanks for clearing that up.

Bravo An Dliodoir!

Anyone needs to just go to a Catholic Church to see who runs the place... women! Then they force it on their children. Read Alice McDermott to see the Irish-Catholic version. You don't see father even at church! Why?

Maybe they are at the Pub!

An Dliodoir:

You got it half right: Men are bad and women are worse. Opps, I told the truth and now I will reap the worldwind. Have at girls and prove me right.

An Dliodoir:

Men ARE bad...or at least they behave badly when they are in charge. War, rape, aggression, oppression. Men have proved well-suited to these types of acts particularly under the guise of religion.

I like some men. I even married one (we've been together for 17 years) and I have given birth to two sons. None of this is personal, so don't take it personally. It's just an observation.

Gag. . .more post-modern, feminist clap-trap from an insulated, ivory tower iconoclast. Some pretty broad and unsubstantiated generalizations there, eh professor?

And religionless societies have created a better life for women? Perhaps the wholesale slaughter of girls by the atheist Chinese will prove to be a boon for your gender.

Religion is not a conspiracy. They are expressions of faith, moral guides, and quests for understanding. That people fail to adhere to their noble principles is, well. . .human.

Let me simplify the professors argument. Men are bad. Women are good.

Pam, it doesn't take much to figure out a small country down south where women are in all executive positions of both bueaucratic and corporate bodies. It is a mini England, and most of them are anyway it's hard to tell the difference.
Are you English American or Australian?

Well, as a Goddess and God worshipping Pagan, I would like to invite this panalist to my classes. She may take away some insight into what really is Goddess worship and the diversity of Goddesses there are. Blood thirsty goddesses...? sure but the other side of them are birth givers. So the Christian god does not create death as well as birth?

Christian's worship a god that died on the cross...( much like the self sacrificed Gods that are much older)and that is reborn each spring (just like our Gods of vegetation) or worshipping the God that was born of a virgin mother...much like many Pagan gods like Mithra, on Dec. 25 in a cave and had three shepards visiting him or the tale of the three Magi..(magi are Persian Astrologers/Magicians). Or worshipping the Christos...who was also Apollo. Or how about Mari, the Goddess of the bitter sea...(birth waters)? Or Vesta the protectress of home and family? Or Gaea the Earth and vessel from which we come? or Kore the Maiden of Spring? Or the thosands of other Goddesses that people from the beginning of time has clung to in good times and bad?

Do you just speak of those like Kali Ma? Read up on Her she also is not as she seems, or Lady Liberty/Goddess Libertas a Goddess of personal freedom...

As a Wiccan who follows a religion that happens to rever the many Goddesses as well as Gods, I do not accept the opinion of someone that is uninformed about what Goddess worship is really about.

I am a Priestess, legally ordained...and honor the Masculine as well as the Feminine Divine...we strive for balance. Maybe it is the imbalance such as in your thought about the Goddess that pervades the mainstream that has us where we are? Wiccans do not have to play politics to have female leaders...and we work side by side with our male counterparts.

Blessings-

As a Hindu, I feel it necessary to clear up the obvious misconception about the role of Goddesses on the part of the author. Goddesses in Hinduism personify knowledge, wealth, the arts, and also power and strength. This is to illustrate that women are multi-faceted and can encompass all those qualities. In fact, one of the most famous depictions of God in Hinduism is half man and half woman (Ardhanareeshwara) or half Siva and half Parvathi, his consort. This is similar to the Yin-Yang concept where the female essence balances the male essence. Hinduism proposes equality between men and women in terms of respect as each God has an equally powerful consort as well. I cannot speak for other religions, but please do a bit more research before making such brazen and unsubstantiated claims about such an ancient philosophy.

Did you know that the Ancient Greeks would pray to Athena instead of Ares before going to war? Even though both were gods of war, Athena represented the strategy of warfare and Ares represented the violence of warfare. Makes sense since she was also the goddess of wisdom. I don't know why I'm mentioning it but I thought it was interesting. LOL

I agree with you in the past religions have been run by men. I am studying religion and the main popele that they worship are Gods not Goddesses

"Try living in my country as a male (usually color) with a thinking mind and you will soon know what you're up against. The feminists have control of everything from justice to education and bureaucratic positions responsible for distribution of resources. "

And what country might that be, Porrin?

Dr. Doniger --

Interesting post, though I have no idea what you're talking about. When you mention the many women who are off-base when they argue this and that about goddesses, I don't know these women. Remember you're now writing for a general audience, not the folks down the hall at the U of C div school!

Miggsathon

Try living in my country as a male (usually color) with a thinking mind and you will soon know what you're up against. The feminists have control of everything from justice to education and bureaucratic positions responsible for distribution of resources.

If you speak up against your oppressor, a Media reaction follows. If that's not traumatic enough for you, interviews are set up to intimidate and drill you to submission. It is inevitable that physical persecution will follow if you use your mind or speak against the feminist regime.

I discovered at school that you are targeted not for your behaviour whether illegal or subjective, but rather for your mind. And once you become an established target, you might as well forget about improving your lot. You won't get a job anywhere or fare well in education.

It is evil and a revolution is absolutely necessary. These women are intoxicated by power and control, I don't think they are in reasonable minds to make rational decisions.

Come and listen to some of them in Tribunal courts, the poor tenants don't get a chance to defend landlord's claims, and especially corporate landlords.

This writer has a poor concept of modern-day Goddess worship - often called Paganism or Nature Spirituality. While there is a subset of Wiccans that solely worship the Goddess - namely Dianics - most Pagans honor the Divine as both masculine and feminine. While she is correct that women are treated as second-class citizens in India, I don't know if that's fear of strong Goddess figures like Kali or Durga, or simply because of exposure to a wide variety of warrior-focused, male-dominated cultures. This was true in ancient Greece and Rome as well as in modern India.

That being said, there has been a gradual awakening of Christianity and Judaism to the missing Divine Feminine since the 1960's and '70's. Women are looking at "legends" like Shekinah, Mary Magdalene, etc. as the feminine counterparts to God and Jesus. Pagans, naturally, feel that this is the Goddess re-asserting Herself after being denied for millennia. There is room in Christianity and Judaism for the Divine Feminine, whether you want to call Her "the Goddess" or not.

Wendy, I buy your conclusion that "Goddesses are not, therefore, the solution. Equal respect for human men and women is the solution."

But how about gay Gods? Maybe they'd be better! Bi Gods? Transgendered Gods?

How about asexual Gods and/or Gods who lack sexual organs?

How about no Gods, just equal respect?

This panelist is unintentionally hilarious. The lady points out that goddess cults are not the answer because they are bloodthirsty (as if YHWH is not) and she generalizes with no evidence whatsoever that goddess cults oppress women more than others.

In fact, it is belief in the supernatural in general that is most often used as a justification for oppression and mutilation of women. These include magic stories about Talking Snakes and the 72 virgins with big eyes, and many other very old books of dubious authorship; and they are found all over the world.

Until the human species collectively abandons our need to believe in Santa Claus and spirits in rocks, we are going to have these and other serious problems. It's not the only thing we have to do as a species, but it will be a good start.

A female speaker at a Goddess event put forward the idea that there would be peace and harmony in a Matriarchal society, because women are inherently more peaceful and non-argumentative than men. A woman who runs a local neo-pagan group turned to me and said "Has she never worked in a office?!"

Most of the Goddess worshippers out there today are quite aware of the incredible and inherent oppression forced on women by traditional relgions, but also know that a complete reversal of gender power would not be much better.

The answer to "Have women fared well or badly in the world's religions" is so obvious and extreme that the question itself is fairly hilarious, but it is promising there are some religious movements today that genuinely seek a working balance.

I agree with you

Its starts as an issue about power and authority. Humans have a desire to control each other and the resources of a region. People use religion as a tool and as a tool it has been very effective at controlling people (both men and women).

Taken further I also do agree also that women have suffered more than men under the yoke of religion. I think you hit the key point on the mark, the effort to control women thru religion is another method of controlling lines of descent and the next generation itself.

It's not an issue of religion, it's an issue of psychology and human reproductive facts.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
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