To WHOM It May Concern

Neal, excellent points about contemplative versus petitionary prayer.

I would argue that some types of petitionary prayer have enormous costs when they fail. I think of parents who deny their children medical care because they believe God forbids such care. When they pray for God to heal their children, and their children die anyway, they rationalize the deaths by believing that they didn't pray sufficiently. They would rather blame themselves than deal with the randomness of events. Even though I condemn these parents' actions, I don't hold myself above them because I'm a parent myself and I deeply sympathize with their need to feel in control when it comes to their children.

Can the human race ever come to terms with the fact that the universe is out of our control? Is the "innate need" that you mentioned part of our biology? Or do we acquire that need early in childhood as we deal with our sensory input? Can the need be suppressed, or is it enough to simply acknowledge it?

In another thread, I suggested that the "innate need" probably led to the original concept of the divine as vengeful and controlling. Early humans found the universe to be a fearful place, and they seemed to prefer control by an angry deity to no control at all. I've read that witch-burnings typically took place in times of social stress, when people were fearful about the future. Is the issue really about the need for the human race to deal with fear in rational ways?

As an aside, I see the "innate need" as the motivator behind most conspiracy theories. When the world doesn't make sense, the idea of a sinister cabal controlling people's lives offers a false sense of comfort.

This post will sound quite cynical (and to some degree it really is), so let me differentiate between petitionary prayer versus a more contemplative meditiation.

Whereas contemplative prayer seems to be its own end, petitionary prayer, the asking of a supernatural being for some favor or interdiction, seems to more often fail than succeed. This naturally raises the question: why do we persist?

Most answers, including the one given here by Miss Doniger, are some version of "it lets me feel as if something is in control of events." This answer, which I agree with to some extent, comes from a psychological perspective: we humans have an innate need to feel as if things aren't truly random. That even if we are unable to exercise much control over our situation, we can appeal to a higher power who will intervene on our behalf.

The need for (at least a perception) of control over events in our lives is a well documented fact of human psychology. But I would like to introduce an economic perspective on the persistence of petitionary prayer.

We've all heard the response "Pray. It can't hurt!" from the faithful to our verbalized worries and anxieties. There is an economic fact implied in this response. Namely that prayer cost us so little it is still worth the investment even if it often fails.

Consider it: prayer does not cost us money, labor, problem solving cognition, time (more than a few minutes) or any other real investment. If the answer were to be "Donate $10,000 to your local Diocese. It can't hurt!" We would simply not believe the "It can't hurt!" portion. Upon failure, we would be out $10,000. This would hurt for most of us.

Even if petitionary prayer fails some 90% of the time, we may still persist in this because the 10% that it seems to work is still a positive payoff to our miniscule investment.

I loath to think about prayer from an economic perspective, but just as I can recognize the legitimacy of a psychological viewpoint, more tangible rewards for such activity have some legitimacy too.

Hi, Victoria,

Thanks for the explanation of Muslim belief about predestination. It sounds a lot like the Lutherans' belief, or, rather, my understanding of the Lutherans' belief.

Ann O.

Correct Bill L. We can turn coal and limestone into food. That food can be pelletized and put in vending machines. When one is hungry "enough" one can simply go the the vending machine and get a pellet or two, free. That will solve both the hunger and obesity problems at the same time. But in time all the coal and limestone will be used up. It's really a no brainer isn't it?

The population doubles every 50 years at the present rate of human reproduction. Let's suppose the earth can sustain 80 billion people. When, at what date does reproduction need to be put in check? Will there come a date when the evangelicals announce, "as of day n, month m, this year people will no longer do any sex at all? Is that how the problem is fixed?

Build your storm shelter before the storm comes. Prayer hasn't stopped a strom yet. The law of averages says it's coming right up but the odds remain the same.

bgone, remember the numbers given in the 60's for the starvation of mankind if numbers reached 8-10 billion people? How many fat people do you see wandering around? This Earth could sustain 3-4 times that number if we'd quit being so greedy and work together.

"Our hearts are restless untill they rest in you O Lord"

EAGLE KISS - if Jesus was alive today is there a single evangelical that would follow Jesus? The answer is obviously no for their minds are closed. You have a good idea but you may as well try selling it to the man in the sun, you know, the man in the sun that fathered Jesus the first time.

Religion is the great enemy of democracy and in turn the great enemy of mankind. Today we're pushing 10,000,000,000 people on earth. By 2050 there will be 15,000,000,000 people with religions demanding people reproduce by their rules. So do a simple calculation or two. How many trees must be cut down so everyone can have a toothpick, now and then. How many cows must be butchered for everyone to have a hamburger, now and then.

There's just one thing left to do, "go to your churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and pray."

Lemmings are lovable little furry creatures that reproduce like people. They increase in numbers until their enviornment won't feed them any more. Then a great leader arises, a messiah and they follow him in a near stampede over the cliff to their deaths. Only the smart ones don't follow. But then they do the same stupid thing again.

People are smarter than lemmings of course. In the past when the food supply went of zero people took up eating each other. One can always plan to survive by eating one's neighbors, they'er both righteous and deliceous.

Don't let that bother you. We're likely to have a mega disaster, a plague or nuclear war and thin people out a bit. There's a super volcano in Yellowstone national park that could erupt and clean off the eastern half of the country, the avian flu is lurking about and then there's the coalition of the willing.

Victoria, I like your philosophical thinking. I believe humans should have a philosophical attitude about the existence of God/gods/goddesses in stead of the blind confirmative or supernatural attitude. This way we will not offend God/gods/goddess if they exist and we will not harm or kill other people for any religious reasons. Being phiposophical and doubtful will make it easier for us to get along with each other and meet God/gods/goddesses if they ever exist.

Humans are in fact not intelligent or rational. We are mostly blind. Why can't we discover the absurdity in such beliefs in male gods or female gods? Judaism, Christianity and Islam, for example, worship all male gods. The gods are not only male, but also patriarchial, like the despotic heads of a family. There are no roles for women in these religions. Some other religions have goddesses or both gods and goddesses. Why can't we see that all religions are thus just human creations, reflecting human societies? As the Old-Testment God was too archaic and inhuman, Jesus created a new God, more lenient and forgiving and thus was killed by those who worshipped the old God.

Humans need a new Messiah who can unify all the religions or at least show them that all the gods /goddesses that they have been worshipping are not the true God or gods/goddesses and that God/gods/goddesses, if they exist, have never intervened in human affairs or have never wanted humans to know about Him/them, let alone worship them by killing each other.

BGONE- the only way your satatement would make sense-

Ann O, Victoria, I can conclude that Allah is not Almighty "if Allah wills it" and it doesn't happen. By definition, anything willed by Almighty entities happens without any help from people or any help otherwise.

is if you were somehow privy to the complete will of god to make a judgement one way or the other-
the first- how would we know if its gods will? if it doesnt happen doesnt mean its not gods will- just that we dont know what it is-

second- how do we know the criteria god uses? how can we assume that prayer does or does not enter into his decision processes?

ANNE O Fatalism is a close approximation- however there is an implied negative-

predetermination is more accurate- although we will all cetainly die- and that is fatal to the physical- predetermination means that we are not open ended equations- but full and complete stories with endings- our fate is written- our epiphanies and backslides- everything- our prayers and intents and changing intents- all our life is pre-ordained- but we dont know what it is- this i think is a major difference in philosophy of christianity- we have free will- but it is already decided how we will act within the parameters of that free will- i would say it reqires an inconceivalbe amount of orchestration- but then so does the running of the cosmos- and physical reality is scientifically proven because of its predictable and unchanging nature- possibly this is an unsatisfying concept-
it presupposes a true submission to the wil of god- an acceptance- which is sometimes threatening or frightening to the ego which wants its autonomy-
however- having said all this before it gets too depressing- there is nothing that i have found or been able to ascertain from questioning others that doesnt allow for the possibility that eventually all souls go to paradise-
there is a process that we go through as humans- maybe a refining process-

when i was about 13 i got kicked out of my bible class for suggesting that i didnt want to go to heaven until hitler was allowed in- i had the idea that somehow my soul was valuable enough that god would want me bad enough to put hitler through the process nd let him in too(in my mind at the time hitler was the most evil unforgivable example that i could come up with) and it seems to me if god is all-forgiving that is absolute-

i am probably not the best one to ask about this concept but that is my take on it-

and yes bgone- all the possible prayers that might affect gods will are included in there with all the nuances implied-
peace

another thing is i cant imagine how this lady is a professor of religious history and so uninformed about one of the most well known and basic ideas about islam- basically insha-alla-

i have stated that if i ever go to an arabic-speaking country i will answer insha'alla to everything and be considered most wise and temperate tongued for it-hee

PETER, Maurie applies the only reliable way to avoid praying to Devil while intending to pray to God, don't pray at all.

Was that God in the Gray Larson cartoon? How can you tell? That won't work. Thou shalt not define God. Devil claims to be God and is the supernatural being that answers prayers.

God tells us through his infalible book, the Bible, Genesis 3:19 "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow" that prayer is a waste of time. Unless of course we pray for something we don't want.

Just as a confirmation of Maurie's plan, I made a similar deal with the fish. I stay out of the water and they stay off the land. I don't eat them and they don't eat me. I'm still here. I understand the fish actually eat each other, the big ones eat the little ones. Fish have a lot in common with corporations.

Re, Maurie Beck, who said:

"Considering the mischief and mayhem that seems to follow god wherever he goes, god and I have a general understanding; I don't ask him for anything, I'm one less thing on his very full plate, and therefore, he doesn't bother me at all. So far, it seems to have worked quite well."

LOL! I appreciate the humor.

I hope you have seen the old Gary Larson cartoon with "God" at a video terminal, with a "Smite"
button.

And I hope you always stay under the radar. If there is such radar -- which I doubt.

Question for BGONE:

What would be a probably reason for the Israelites to have Aaron build a golden 'calf' to worship and pray to?

It has been an interesting question to me for many years since the Egyptians worshipped 'cats'.
If the Israelites at that point were wanting to return to where they had been it would seem they would want to stay with the god they were used to rather than switching off to a calf god. Just seems like a strange detail to me and I was wondering if you have a theory.

On another subject from another thread. Your comment on Shakespeare that there was a committee or group rather than one individual probably has a lot of merit. The person or group certainly knew the interworkings of the power/governing structure, which one basically obscure individual would not have known, even with with a good imagination. Too much of it is real world stuff and if there was a group then it would explain why it has continued to be played and taught rather than drifting into obscurity.

Ms. Doniger, Prayer puts us back in touch with the infinite without *blowing our mind*. Those who refuse to believe, and those who are ambivalent can not refute Creation. It is a simple matter to substitute the most general commandments of God into those of Creation. Creation comes first. Most will accept the logic of the Golden Rule. What more is there? chuckles...eh. it is a start. God Bless you and yours always. May you always find your path beside that of God's though for you God might make a slight scenic detour (smile) amen.

Ann O, Victoria, I can conclude that Allah is not Almighty "if Allah wills it" and it doesn't happen. By definition, anything willed by Almighty entities happens without any help from people or any help otherwise.

God get's a bum rap from people claiming they are doning God's will. If they faith the Bible they should observe, Genesis 3:19 "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow." Prior to that time God willed as Adam and Eve willed, whatever they wanted they got. With original sin God withdrew his "locked wills" with that of mankind.

God wasn't always almighty, omnipresent or all knowing. Original Christian God needed a lie detector to discover people had broken God's laws as an example, one of many possible. God as defined today cannot be found in the Bible, only boast and threats by Biblical figures.

Christian God was defined at Nice under order of the Roman emperor, Constantine the great. We don't know what he was thinking other than to wonder if he noticed that the sun is the actual God of Abraham and the "Christian bishops" were disputing if Jesus was truly the son of Abraham's God. The sun was also a Roman god. Constantine installed Trinity as the only Roman God once the bishops defined it and he corrected their definition.

Constantine hated Jews and that alone makes the crucifixion questionable as well as giving the ministry one of the most difficult problems ever. How can the sacrifice of God's only begotten son to God appease God? Does the Jews getting the detail help? Sacrifices, by definition are soley intended to appease an angry God.

VICTORIA tells us:

after stating an intention to perform any action in the future a muslim says insha'alla (which means-
if ALLAH wills it) because we never know if we will be able to perform such and such an obligation and everything is dependent on whether it is willed by god or not.

Hi, Victoria,

Can you tell us more about the Muslim beliefs about prayer? My undoubtedly stereotyped understanding is that Islam is very fatalistic -- that is, Muslims believe that God wills from all eternity what will happen, so prayer can't make any objective difference. (I'm also quite sure your beliefs are not as simple as I think they are.)

Ann O.

BEN - there are no believers, Christians for sure on the battle field. That's now. But there was a time when people would not kill each other because they expected the dead to go to the next world and wait for them. The first record of people killing people comes from ancient Egypt where a man convinced his confederates that the problem of the murdered waiting for their killers could be overcome by mutlitating their bodies.

Have you looked at "The Battle of The Little Big Horn" at http://www.hoax-buster.org yet? There's a really good explanation of the two primary types of hell and their purpose. The first type of hell is condition of body, the forever wound that kept the dead just that dead.

Christian hell, hell of the second type is a place invented by "a" Pharaoh. It was a considerable upgrade to hacking up the bodies of the dead. Christs are required to get past the guard at heaven's gate and avoid getting the boot off the nebol bridge and down to hell.

See my post on Dr Borg's thread, 1st one right now. It explains why people pray and why atheists don't as well, implied.

Ba'al,

Thanks for putting me on to those books. It'll be intersting to see how present-day science has elaborated on Jung's non-scientific insight.

Regards.

So anyway, two jews, one muslim, an irishwoman and a dwarf get on a train bound for Birmingham. The first jew says to the drawf, hey shtipah, you got a match?

The dwarf says, no, I don't smoke!

The Muslim says, you don't smoke, Insh'Allah!

The second Jew says, he don't smoke, Oy, what a ting.

The Muslim says, Insh'Allah . . !

The Irishwoman says, I have match.

They all look at her. You have a match, Insh'Allah, the Muslim says, kindly.

Yes. The Irishwoman says. Your face. My bupkess. Perfect match.

(Never mind. A little humor, that's all.)

"For many people, the habit of prayer simply comes down to acknowledging that we are not in control of our lives, and hoping against hope that somebody else is. And to the extent that that realization is often calming and empowering, all prayers are answered."

Doniger encapsulated why I don't pray. While I acknowledge that I am not in control of my life, I hope against hope that someone else ISN'T in control, because I don't expect someone with that kind of absolute authority over me to be rational. I much prefer an indifferent universe that has no awareness or consciousness, as opposed to a supreme being that is capricious and impossible to please and prone to fits of rage.

Norrie

Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett discuss the hard wiring in their latest books and speculate in interesting ways as to how it might have been adaptive.

You are very right that some of our hard wiring is maladaptive for our current way of life (hence, for example, obesity and type II diabetes -- and also Jerry Falwell).

Bgone said: True. There are no atheist on the battle field

Which do you deny, my existence or my honesty ? How about Pat Tillman's ? Lt. Adler's ? Which others of the 546 individual endorsers at http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/individualendorsers.php ? There are atheists in foxholes. We really, truly, honestly, do not believe, and we do exist.

When the situation becomes tense and death dances about faith be damned. Everyone prays. Those prayers are in both directions, for deliverance and the damnation of the attacker with a heavy weighting on the latter. You don't want to hear the exact words used. God is the most frequently heard word in the near vicinity of man made death.

True. There are no atheist on the battle field and neither are there any live Christians. That was in the past. Things may be changing since the new born again way to fight and kill people calls for the chair of the joint chiefs to preach the Gospel of the Lord. I suppose being in a deep hole in the ground half way around the world and nothing to do but insert a key and turn it changes the complexion of things.

That's not exactly like, as Patton put it, "when you put your hand in a pile of goo that a minute before was your best friend's face...you'll know what to do" And what you do begins with a call to God. No one ever says "enemy, I love you." But they do ask for help from God to kill them but don't wait for it to come. They throw in a suggestion as to what God can do with them after they're dead.

**But words have power, and the formulas of prayer are often comforting in themselves, even if they are sent out in mental envelops marked “address unknown.” **

You are right here. Words do have power. And when I use words to think about a situation, I can use words to comfort myself or to help me figure out a way to fix something if I can and if I have given it as much thought as I possibly can and there is no changing of a situation, then I just have to let it be. Knowing that I do not have control over this particular outcome.

**For many people, the habit of prayer simply comes down to acknowledging that we are not in control of our lives, and hoping against hope that somebody else is. And to the extent that that realization is often calming and empowering, all prayers are answered.**

I have to disagree here. We do have control over our lives to a great extent. That is called empowerment. The realization that we may not be able to control all of the surroundings of our lives is what brings calmness.

Praying to a supernatural being and waiting for an answer is like sitting on pins and needles waiting for the answer.

Imagine in your hand is a lottery ticket and your praying to win. But alas its not to be. Do you question why god allowed John Doe to win and not you who is in dire straights and that all knowing god should know this too. Isn't it just better to understand that John Doe had the winning ticket and you didn't?

Or imagine your in those dire straights not knowing how your gonna feed your kids for the week and a few of your friends get together and bring you a weeks worth of groceries. Do you thank god for that? or those friends that love and care about you?

I think articulating one's concerns in any context is helpful. I was raised Catholic and now practice no particular faith. But as I was doing some research long ago, I became interested in the use of prayer beads--probably haunted by the ghost of rosaries past. Interesting how the earnest faithful of various cultures have used them.

So I devised some memory beads on an expandable string to remind me at odd times of personal convictions that, for lack of better terms,might be called spiritual or lofty considering the realm in which I live (i.e. the life of hyperstimulated five-sensory perception). At business meetings I will often pull them off my wrist and contemplate something meaningful for awhile. It keeps me from overreacting as it pulls me back to a different sort of life and being...back to myself.

Neo-taoism may term this not as prayer, but as "using one's sensory perception as tool to enter realm outside this crazy one in which we live, work, and judge one another harshly." Freudians may note I have made a nice substitute for my deceased blanky of old. The yellow one with satin edges that fit between my index and middle fingers. But I digress...

For a few short moments,wherever in this country I am at a given time- aided by the prayer bead-bracelet--I enter a realm I knew as a child; a world of unexpected possibility where some One, or some Universal thing or reality, was listening. The observor submits oneself in prayer to become for a moment at least, the observed, and tension leaves. One cannot do it all, or know it all, or be sure of much of anything.

Those goofy homemade prayer beads help me hold on to my center.

Ba'al,

Carl Jung said that "God is an archetype", meaning, as you suggest, that our brains are hard-wired to perceive or imagine that kind of being.

But we are hard-wired to act, react, and perceive in many automatic ways - some of which are clearly non-productive or useless. That we have these automatic responses doesn't mean we have to take them seriously.

If Jung is right, the archetype of God must have evolved because having it conferred some evolutionary survival advantage long ago. Perhaps it helped us deal more skillfully with saber toothed tigers.

Professor Donniger raises a pretty interesting point, as usual.

I am a weak atheist, meaning I am about as certain of the existence of God as I am of the Easter Bunny. (I can't rigorously prove the non-existence of either). But I still catch myself engaging in the same mental and verbal behavior you describe. My guess is that our brains are wired up that way.

Considering the mischief and mayhem that seems to follow god wherever he goes, god and I have a general understanding; I don't ask him for anything, I'm one less thing on his very full plate, and therefore, he doesn't bother me at all. So far, it seems to have worked quite well.

after stating an intention to perform any action in the future a muslim says insha'alla (which means-
if ALLAH wills it) because we never know if we will be able to perform such and such an obligation and everything is dependent on whether it is willed by god or not.
There is no relation to the evil eye or any superstition associated with this statement- merley an admission that we are submitted in everything to ALLAH's will.

> But to whom do the godless pray?

We don't. It is like asking to which comic book character Christians call out to help. Christians consider comic book characters fictional characters and the idea of calling out to help never occurs to them. Same with us unbelievers.

IMHO, God started the Big Bang. He/She also granted the gifts of Free Will and Future to all the thinking beings in the Universe. This being the case, God is not able to alter life and requests/prayers will not be answered. Statistically, your request might come true but it is simply the result of the variabiliy/randomness of Nature.

So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping cows and bowing to Mecca six times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the Commandments of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings. And lets all hope there indeed is a place called Heaven!!!