Letting God Off the Hook

Wendy seems to have some kind of Hinduphobia. This has been noticed by many Hindu scholars.Her writings can only be called academic bigotry.

1) Plot to denigrate India@ http://indiaview.wordpress.com/2007/07/29/dalit-twist-to-textbook-row/

2) INVADING THE SACRED @ http://worldmonitor.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/invading-the-sacred/

Yes those blood sucking hindus, I mean if it werent for the hindus, who would have subdued the american west, annihilated all the native americans in the world's worst genocide, killed off tribes in south america under the banner of the lord jesus christ, killed those damned aborigines in australia for the church's civilizing mission, killed off all pagan traditions and temples on the edge of the sword in europe, enslaved all of africa with the brutal sword of christianity, launched the crusades for the protection of our non-violent and benevolent lord jesus against those violent muhammedand ! Yes those damned blood letting hindus and their bloddy gods, a violent culture like the hindus is definitely to produce a violent person like Gandhi ! and Buddha ! oh such violence, such horror !

"How can Hinduism be called a religion when it admits all beliefs, allowing even a kind of high-reaching atheism and agnosticism and permits all possible spiritual experiences, all kinds of religious adventures?"
-- Sri Aurobindo

Read the following article for more:
http://nextfuture.sriaurobindosociety.org.in/dec03/nfdec03_hindu.htm

http://allinfo.iifree.net >automotive de insurance wilmington Blot on the landscape

http://bestinfo.freeweb7.com >traveler insurance claim Load of cobblers

I disagree with you in saying that Hinduism is not monotheistic, it is! There is a single Godhead, Brahman out of which all the gods and goddesses emerge. Indeed all is Brahman. In chapter 7 of the Bhagavad-Gita we find the cultimation of Hindu practice where it says "At the end of many births, the ones of wisdom come unto Me, knowing that I am That which is the heart of all creation. Very rare is one that great".

I believe that if we look at any religion we will find that fundamentally it is monotheistic. The polytheism is only seeming, a means of practice is a multi-cultural and diverse society as is India.

I have realized that there is in fact a scientific basis that shows that there is a single non-physical reality, which at least goes part way to proving the existence of God or a single Divinity or what ever we want to call the Nameless. Unfortunately at present atheist scientists are suppressing the evidence. You are welcomed to visit my website at http://www.annavictoria.net for more info.

In reality God is never "on the hook" because God does not create evil. Evil comes into being through peole. These people are made evil, society breeds evil when true community is lost and society becomes degraded owing to a number of factors all of which relate to how people relate to other in a marriage or partnership and the effects this has on children. Evil only exists while there are people with a corrupted minds, who harbor ill intent and commit hate crimes against others. Apart from the community of people who are living and the harmful ideas that they entertain there is not evil. There is no such thing as an evil spirit independent of the collective that uphold harmful thoughts. And might I add these people have no real mental power worth speaking off. They use intimidatory means that the victim insightfully perceives (which for most peole remains unconscious) to cause them to think in negative terms. So it is the person's reactionary thoughts that cause the damage. I don't think we can lump together Katrina and 9/11. The one is an natural event while the other is the work of evil people.

Finally there is no sorry that any evil person can whisper at the time of death that is going to get them off. I know a number of very evil people, some of them are "church goers". They are the most despicable of all evil people. They use religion to provide for themselves a public face that betrays the truth and the sheer blackness of their hearts. These are the true blasphemers because they betray the truth and goodness and thereby gain an opportunity to approach others under the Name of God and do them a lot of harm. These people are not fit to gain forgiveness no matter if they are Christian or Hindu or anything else. Regards Anna Victoria.

Also, its easy to forget that Hinduism is a work in progress. You or I could write a new treatise on philosophy, which could be adopted by Hindus and would essentially become a core part of Hinduism.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

peace

God is a concept widely prevalent in the West originating from the foundations of Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Judaism & Christinity) and the Old Testament is one among the pillars of this foundation. The West (to include the Academia and the many Schools of Divinity/ Dept's of Religion at Major Universities in the west) seems to be so taken on the usage and concept of "God" and the nature of God as based on the Abrahamic Religions. Any other school of thought questioning "God" as defined by the norms and standards set by the above group is dismissed.

Given the above bias... and the tunnel vision prevalent currently , like a race horse blinded can only focus and run on a single track to reach its destination. It is a mjor challenge of the New Age (21st century) to shackle these stereo types so prevalent among the majority of Mankind.

Keeping the above in perspective. Let me state that God is a concept Introduced to Hindusim by the West based on their limited ability at interpretating Hindusim. Brahman - the self is the concept of Hinduism. This is a unique concept of Hinduism and is its contribution to mankind in its quest for the truth. Brahman is not equivalent to the concept of God.

The old Testament stories are an example of Human Baser Instincts being addressed and the closest equivalent you will find in Hinduism is the stories of Indra and other hundreds of deities in Hinduism which the Westerners and Western Professors teaching hinduism seem to easily fathom and relate to and dwell their focus in this realm (Gods and their powers - Good, Evil, War, peace, Male, Female, sex, celibacy and so on...)satisfying typical Baser Human Instincts....
Yes, there are enough stories in Hinduism to keep these folks focussed on their study for years.....

The Concept of Brahman which is the very essence of Hinduism seems to be lost..., "Brahman - the Self " is a unique concept of Hinduism and very different from the concept of God originating from the western school of thought. The Concept of Brahman is Hinduism's contribution to Humanity in its pursuit of the Truth.
The West and the Western Academia researching Hinduism have a long way to go to understand the nature and the concept of Brahman in Hinduism.
There seems to be a civilizational dogma in the west when it comes to understanding - "Brahman" - "Self",

Anyone who has read your posts on Eboo Patel threads would beg to differ.

Vijay,

re your comment "But I am unaware of the myth where the human takes on a God's sins..Does anyone know?" (5-Sep-07)

I think Ms. Doniger is referring to the story where Indra is afflicted with brahm hatya, when he kills Vrtra. Eventually, he goes around asking people to take on his brahm hatya, and thus cleanse him of the sin.

Four groups agree to take on the sin: Earth (salt), trees (sap), women (menstrual blood), water (foam and bubbles).

They also receive boons to go with the sin: Earth: depressions will be filled; trees: will not die on being cut; women: everlasting amour; and water: will be swollen on joining.

Of course, Indra is only a minor deity now, along with the other devas. So Ms. Doniger may be slightly off-mark when she classifies him as God, but probably that's fine in a general write-up like this.

Vijay,

re your comment "But I am unaware of the myth where the human takes on a God's sins..Does anyone know?" (5-Sep-07)

I think Ms. Doniger is referring to the story where Indra is afflicted with brahm hatya, when he kills Vrtra. Eventually, he goes around asking people to take on his brahm hatya, and thus cleanse him of the sin.

Four groups agree to take on the sin: Earth (salt), trees (sap), women (menstrual blood), water (foam and bubbles).

They also receive boons to go with the sin: Earth: depressions will be filled; trees: will not die on being cut; women: everlasting amour; and water: will be swollen on joining.

Of course, Indra is only a minor deity now, along with the other devas. So Ms. Doniger may be slightly off-mark when she classifies him as God, but probably that's fine in a general write-up like this.

paganplace- ive enver said anything remotely like that- who am i to judge the spiritual completelness of any historical or living creature?

relax paganplace this is just not that important

i really have no idea where you come up with your ideas about me, but it would be much better for your own peace if you stopped worrying about wht you imagine i think-
peace its just not anything to get upset about

paganplace- ive enver said anything remotely like that- who am i to judge the spiritual completelness of any historical or living creature?

relax paganplace this is just not that important

i really have no idea where you come up with your ideas about me, but it would be much better for your own peace if you stopped worrying about wht you imagine i think-
peace its just not anything to get upset about

You have revealed much about your personal faith journey and about your personal life. In your opinion no religious leader (Jesus, Buddha, Hindu sages, rishis, etc.)except Mohammad had a "complete" spiritual experience. Why? They were celibate! It forces one to wonder if you consider sex and spiritual experience as one and the same (? the remnant of the hippie philosophy in which free sex = universal "love"). No, that is not rancor or a vengeful and indelicate motive towards any religion - it is just plain ignorance about spiritual matters.

what little ive revealed about my own personal journey in life has been without rancor towards any-

you project upon me vengeful and indelicate motives

only god knows what is in our hearts

peace

You followed every religion with sincerity in your own way and ended up discarding it only to follow the next one with sincerity.

On the next religious "trip" you had nothing good to say about the religion you had discarded, although you had found it fit to be followed "sincerely" for a while.

You were raised in a family which did not prescribe any particular religion. As an intelligent and independent woman raised by an atheist father and agnostic mother, you had the option to consider all religious philosophies before choosing to follow one religion.

The fact that you can see no good in any other religion except the one you currently follow does not speak for genuine committment to any religion you followed at any time.

It is logical then to wonder what bashing Islam would get once your need to try out the next religion rears its head. Don't forget you were a dedicated Christian for much longer than you have been a Muslim. Besides, your version of Islam may not be what Muslims brought up in the Islamic culture and tradition would consider real Islam in the first place.

If I were a Muslim myself, I would not feel comfortable about some of the values that you have revealed in your discussions here (which clearly stems from your non-Muslim, non-religious past), which does not reflect the best Islam has to offer.

One Interesting observation , for the readers in the West about Hinduism, before I comment on Wendy’s article. While the Western Civilization and Western Society has been a pioneer in giving options and choices to Mankind in the Material realm and Material pursuits. When it comes to Spiritual pursuit, unfortunately everyone is told, that they have only one choice or option and if you do not subscribe to that option or choice , you are doomed. Hinduism on the other hand gives Mankind the choice to choose and pick the different options and packages that one feels comfortable with in a Man’s spiritual quest to find the Truth. This openness for Individual choice and decision making should be embraced and this option to choose and pick the path of your choice offered in Hinduism is its greatest contribution to Mankind.

Abrahamic Religions (Judaism, Islam, Christainity) are all Prophet based religions, Each Prophet claiming exclusive right or ownership to knowing the truth and stating that his is the only way and the right path. This proprietary knowledge was communicated exclusively at a certain point in time in History to these prophets by God to be passed on to the commoners - Us, who are now debating and fighting over who should own the rights to this exclusive knowledge. Hinduism on the other hand starts on the foundation that Knowledge about Truth is available for anyone who is willing to seek it. And you can directly reach that path through Self- Realization. No Prophet has the right to exclusivity.

One school of thought which Hinduism is based on is called Advaita Philosophy or Non Dualism. Adi Shankaracharya, one among the greatest philosophers to have graced this earth propounded this doctrine of non-duality (Advaita), which can be summarized as – “God Alone is”. By applying this highest state of attainment , you can arrive at your perception of how to handle disasters. Now the question of how to reach this state of awareness in this modern world of the 21st century living, with Disasters such as Katrina and 9/11? For this one must read the Bhagavath Gita – for answers. According to the Gita - There are 4 Different paths that one can take , Knana Yoga – path of knowledge, Raja Yoga– path of the Mind , Karma Yoga – Path of Action and Bhakthi Yoga – Path of Devotion . For our discussion, in the 21st century, living a family life & working – Karma Yoga or doing your Duty and not bothering with the returns can be one of the chosen paths. “Thy right is to work only; but never with its fruits; let not the fruit of the action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction.” Sri Krishna, Bhag. Gita - II.47.

One should laud the dedication and focus of Wendy Donegar for having spent years studying, possibly in an effort to understand the complex philosophy and thought in Hinduism and her efforts to summarize the above Hindu Philosophy as it pertains to Katrina or 9/11. The storehouse of knowledge documented for Mankind in Hinduism is so vast and amazing that hundreds of Scholars in the West have dedicated their time and effort to bringing this Ancient treasure house of knowledge to society. But, be warned while a number of them are making genuine efforts, unfortunately, there are also many scholars that present and Interpret Hinduism in the West, come with the baggage and the limitation of looking at it from an outsiders perspective, and the Western Civilization that they are brought up In. Their working knowledge of Sanskrit, the language used in Hindu texts is a suspect or a big question mark? and also their ability to comprehend the complex philosophical treatise ingrained in the hindu texts for which the Western Mind or the so called Research Methodology which they subscribe to in Academia for their Analysis is In-adequate to address the depth of knowledge presented in Hinduism. The worst outcome of this limitation has seen some of them trying to use Freudian and perverted psychological methods of Interpretation to overcome their Inability to comprehend the Philosophy of Hinduism. If one keeps this limitation in perspective, you can appreciate the Interpretations coming from these Scholars who have dedicated many years studying Hinduism.

One Interesting observation , for the readers in the West about Hinduism, before I comment on Wendy’s article. While the Western Civilization and Western Society has been a pioneer in giving options and choices to Mankind in the Material realm and Material pursuits. When it comes to Spiritual pursuit, unfortunately everyone is told, that they have only one choice or option and if you do not subscribe to that option or choice , you are doomed. Hinduism on the other hand gives Mankind the choice to choose and pick the different options and packages that one feels comfortable with in a Man’s spiritual quest to find the Truth. This openness for Individual choice and decision making should be embraced and this option to choose and pick the path of your choice offered in Hinduism is its greatest contribution to Mankind.

Abrahamic Religions (Judaism, Islam, Christainity) are all Prophet based religions, Each Prophet claiming exclusive right or ownership to knowing the truth and stating that his is the only way and the right path. This proprietary knowledge was communicated exclusively at a certain point in time in History to these prophets by God to be passed on to the commoners - Us, who are now debating and fighting over who should own the rights to this exclusive knowledge. Hinduism on the other hand starts on the foundation that Knowledge about Truth is available for anyone who is willing to seek it. And you can directly reach that path through Self- Realization. No Prophet has the right to exclusivity.

One school of thought which Hinduism is based on is called Advaita Philosophy or Non Dualism. Adi Shankaracharya, one among the greatest philosophers to have graced this earth propounded this doctrine of non-duality (Advaita), which can be summarized as – “God Alone is”. By applying this highest state of attainment , you can arrive at your perception of how to handle disasters. Now the question of how to reach this state of awareness in this modern world of the 21st century living, with Disasters such as Katrina and 9/11? For this one must read the Bhagavath Gita – for answers. According to the Gita - There are 4 Different paths that one can take , Knana Yoga – path of knowledge, Raja Yoga– path of the Mind , Karma Yoga – Path of Action and Bhakthi Yoga – Path of Devotion . For our discussion, in the 21st century, living a family life & working – Karma Yoga or doing your Duty and not bothering with the returns can be one of the chosen paths. “Thy right is to work only; but never with its fruits; let not the fruit of the action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction.” Sri Krishna, Bhag. Gita - II.47.

One should laud the dedication and focus of Wendy Donegar for having spent years studying, possibly in an effort to understand the complex philosophy and thought in Hinduism and her efforts to summarize the above Hindu Philosophy as it pertains to Katrina or 9/11. The storehouse of knowledge documented for Mankind in Hinduism is so vast and amazing that hundreds of Scholars in the West have dedicated their time and effort to bringing this Ancient treasure house of knowledge to society. But, be warned while a number of them are making genuine efforts, unfortunately, there are also many scholars that present and Interpret Hinduism in the West, come with the baggage and the limitation of looking at it from an outsiders perspective, and the Western Civilization that they are brought up In. Their working knowledge of Sanskrit, the language used in Hindu texts is a suspect or a big question mark? and also their ability to comprehend the complex philosophical treatise ingrained in the hindu texts for which the Western Mind or the so called Research Methodology which they subscribe to in Academia for their Analysis is In-adequate to address the depth of knowledge presented in Hinduism. The worst outcome of this limitation has seen some of them trying to use Freudian and perverted psychological methods of Interpretation to overcome their Inability to comprehend the Philosophy of Hinduism. If one keeps this limitation in perspective, you can appreciate the Interpretations coming from these Scholars who have dedicated many years studying Hinduism.

One Interesting observation , for the readers in the West about Hinduism, before I comment on Wendy’s article. While the Western Civilization and Western Society has been a pioneer in giving options and choices to Mankind in the Material realm and Material pursuits. When it comes to Spiritual pursuit, unfortunately everyone is told, that they have only one choice or option and if you do not subscribe to that option or choice , you are doomed. Hinduism on the other hand gives Mankind the choice to choose and pick the different options and packages that one feels comfortable with in a Man’s spiritual quest to find the Truth. This openness for Individual choice and decision making should be embraced and this option to choose and pick the path of your choice offered in Hinduism is its greatest contribution to Mankind.

Abrahamic Religions (Judaism, Islam, Christainity) are all Prophet based religions, Each Prophet claiming exclusive right or ownership to knowing the truth and stating that his is the only way and the right path. This proprietary knowledge was communicated exclusively at a certain point in time in History to these prophets by God to be passed on to the commoners - Us, who are now debating and fighting over who should own the rights to this exclusive knowledge. Hinduism on the other hand starts on the foundation that Knowledge about Truth is available for anyone who is willing to seek it. And you can directly reach that path through Self- Realization. No Prophet has the right to exclusivity.

One school of thought which Hinduism is based on is called Advaita Philosophy or Non Dualism. Adi Shankaracharya, one among the greatest philosophers to have graced this earth propounded this doctrine of non-duality (Advaita), which can be summarized as – “God Alone is”. By applying this highest state of attainment , you can arrive at your perception of how to handle disasters. Now the question of how to reach this state of awareness in this modern world of the 21st century living, with Disasters such as Katrina and 9/11? For this one must read the Bhagavath Gita – for answers. According to the Gita - There are 4 Different paths that one can take , Knana Yoga – path of knowledge, Raja Yoga– path of the Mind , Karma Yoga – Path of Action and Bhakthi Yoga – Path of Devotion . For our discussion, in the 21st century, living a family life & working – Karma Yoga or doing your Duty and not bothering with the returns can be one of the chosen paths. “Thy right is to work only; but never with its fruits; let not the fruit of the action be thy motive, nor let thy attachment be to inaction.” Sri Krishna, Bhag. Gita - II.47.

One should laud the dedication and focus of Wendy Donegar for having spent years studying, possibly in an effort to understand the complex philosophy and thought in Hinduism and her efforts to summarize the above Hindu Philosophy as it pertains to Katrina or 9/11. The storehouse of knowledge documented for Mankind in Hinduism is so vast and amazing that hundreds of Scholars in the West have dedicated their time and effort to bringing this Ancient treasure house of knowledge to society. But, be warned while a number of them are making genuine efforts, unfortunately, there are also many scholars that present and Interpret Hinduism in the West, come with the baggage and the limitation of looking at it from an outsiders perspective, and the Western Civilization that they are brought up In. Their working knowledge of Sanskrit, the language used in Hindu texts is a suspect or a big question mark? and also their ability to comprehend the complex philosophical treatise ingrained in the hindu texts for which the Western Mind or the so called Research Methodology which they subscribe to in Academia for their Analysis is In-adequate to address the depth of knowledge presented in Hinduism. The worst outcome of this limitation has seen some of them trying to use Freudian and perverted psychological methods of Interpretation to overcome their Inability to comprehend the Philosophy of Hinduism. If one keeps this limitation in perspective, you can appreciate the Interpretations coming from these Scholars who have dedicated many years studying Hinduism.

ive been a muslim for 9 years.
it is not a capricious decision, but one entered upon after studying and practicing other faiths with sincerity.

would it be a better path if it were unconsciously followed because someone else told me what to follow?

your post might make sense if i was commenting about islam- which i was not.

this is the first time ive seen anyone criticized for making too much of an effort to find the truth.

Victoria has a unique take on all religions - through direct practice, her way. She is a Muslim now. Who knows what religion will catch her fancy tomorrow. It is wise to take her current religious views, which happens to be Islam, with a pinch of salt.

JAI K. i was speaking to bikram who demonstrated that they had a familiarity with the ramayana-
i posted-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"i collected many books, and i found 6 different translations of the ramayana.
6!
one had sita burn in the fire!!!!!!!!

what is the point of that???"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MEANING that whoever translated that particular ramayana completely missed the point of the book!sita walking through the fire unscathed and being vindicated by the gods for her chastity is the point.
if she burns in the fire it is proof of her GUILT.

DEEPU- well of course it was a bad translation, that was the point!

how did anyone get the idea that i was making a religious point?

ramayana is a lovely story, but hardly i wasnt aware that its considered by anyone to be a scriptural document.

JAI K. you wrote-
"Very similar to your Islam when Arabs contempraneuos to prophet Muhamamd treated his tall claims with a healthy dose of skeptcism and frowned on his fondness for having sex with children, murder, robbery etc but today's Muslims consider him the most perfect being to have ever lived and even his pedophilic ways have been incorporated into a way of life acceptable to Muslims."

what does that have to do with anything written?
you are out of your mind.

PAGANPLACE- you always seem to have suspicion for bad intentions- and you didnt get my point at all-
it was an observation on how some concepts manifest into physical reality on a practical level.

you didnt get what i was saying but its okay.
it wasnt that improtant.
(where on earth did you see defensiveness ?)

what do you have against me paganplace? other than being a muslim.
no matter where i go on these boards you feel the need to deconstruct.
dont worry about it

Let us understand...Hinduism is NOT a religion in the usual sense. It is centered on advaitam and it wants everyone to understand this. This is not easy but not impossible. The Upanisad says that all there is, is only 'THAT'. It does not even call it 'GOD'! This is a serious change for the serious student. The culture is centered on this important theme. Even though it talks of 'gods' in the begining, it brushes aside this concept in the end! The only thing it emphasises is advaitam or oneness. In other words YOU are the so called God!

Although posted at an atheist site (richarddawkins.net) the following post is the best short explanation in English for Westerners of many of the strands of Hinduism.

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17058&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=advaita

You write such filthy things about Hinduism. Is that what your Christianity taught you? How come not a single Hindu does not talk about filthy things like you on Christianity or any other religion? That shows the greatness of the religion that one born in. You are literally want to destroy and bringing violence in the society. If you think a religion is so bad, why are you studying this? It is waste of time to analyze your article. I remember once my Teacher mentioned in the class that imagine on one side of the street a person with a fair skin, wearing a suit and a tie but with a filthy thoughts in mind is walking on the street, other side of the road a person living in poverty, a humble and pure in thoughts, wearing a dirty cloths, then the first person is most dangerous to the society. I suggest everyone to read "Invading the Sacred" book to understand Wendy and her children that she is bringing up in her university on Hinduism.

BTW, I don't think the columnist did so badly (and certainly not-maliciously) in trying to speak on this to a largely-Christian audience. I mean, I'll leave the details to those better-qualified, but I'll point out"

We're linguistically-impoverished on a lot of these concepts in the English-speaking world, no matter how good one may or may not be with words.

(heck, why do you think the word 'Karma' had to be borrowed? Similar concepts in European heritage tend to be unpronounceable. :) )

A very shoddy article on "Hinduism". Sanatan Dharma is a monotheistic religion. The existence of multitudes of deities does not change this fact. Hindus believe in a single overarching entity represented in may forms.

Hindus do not believe in a concept of "their" god. And they are not constrained by any particular assumptions one way or another.

Hindu Gods do not create evil - it simply exists.

Karma does not mean "It's your own damn fault". It represents self acceptance and responsibility for ones own actions, be they good or bad.

I do not think it is proper to have an anti-Hindu "scholar" in this section of the forum. She should be placed in the Christianity section where she can pontificate without be restrained by the truth.

* But Hinduism, the religion I know best, is not hobbled by monotheism

* most Hindus do not assume that their god is merciful, or all-knowing, or all-powerful

* many of the Hindu gods create evil out of their own inadequacy

* And finally, there is the "it's your own damn fault" argument, which Hindus call karma

Hee, well, not *all* Westerners, Chaya. ;)

And, going back up, no need to get defensive, Victoria: clearly you were blaming the idea of certain people being callous on the idea of karma, itself.

I'm not saying that, say, Indian society is perfectly-just: Many Hindus will tell you otherwise. Certainly not saying I've never met a Hindu that wasn't kind of a jerk about this or that.

Still, it's quite often we Westerners who project certain ideas of 'judgment' onto these ideas... Trust me on this, I've dealt with a lotta New Agers (Yes, Paganism and New Age are different) who translate American Calvinism directly into the Blavatsky-idea-what-Hinduism's all about, when it comes to ideas there's something terribly wrong with poor people, ...these types turn what's essentially good will and an idea that positive thinking is powerful into an idea that ill-fortune means 'they brought it on themselves' and that therefore they can judge others.

So they can be pretty darn callous.

And you better believe I call em on that. :)

That's not the Hindu millieu, though, and certainly ...within *any* context of karma and reincarnation, is demonstrably, ...being callous. People can and often are just as callous, if not actively-aggressive *against* the poor and blind, based on a belief a judgmental God favors or has favored those who are wealthy.

Frankly, I just think it's more productive to *not* see these things in judgmental terms. Too often Westerners substitute 'another life' for a Heaven or Hell without really thinking through the implications.

I reckon that the way life can be all kinds of distracting and involving, ...that means people aren't always 'ideal.'

Too often people look for a life that *doesn't* have a lot of challenges or uncertainties, or even real choices. Try to force things.

Too often we end up in a mindset where Only Perfection Is Acceptable, ...and the funny thing is, *that's* where we start being motivated to make compromises and rationalizations where we need not... to preserve the idea of 'perfection' existing, even if it means seeing ourselves and the rest of the world as corrupt and unworthy of said perfection.... yet needing nothing else.

It's something that stuck with me from reading a book with a lot of Wiccan characters, for once one *not about Wicca,* but this priestess in the face of overwhelming disaster, says, "All right, just cause we can't help everyone doesn't mean we can't help *anyone.*"

See, Victoria, as a Muslim convert with all that zeal, ...maybe you only see the reasons you voice why your Islam is necessary to you. Why everything else is *flawed* cause it's not said to be *perfect.*

It's those *terms* I question. Wherever they come from.

Now, all these Hindu folks don't need me to speak for them, but what I can say is, when you start trying to turn that lens of yours onto other people, at least understand the terms.

I mean, lookit all these folks speaking up. I'm kind of used to being the one defending them in absentia (with admittedly-limited knowledge, as I said,) from people badmouthing the very idea of not-seeing-the-world-as-Christians-and-Muslims-do, or *half-translating* it, which can be even worse.

But I can tell you, that ideas like 'karma' and 'reincarnation' need not lead to judging others 'unworthy,' as you implied.

I think, in the end, they *cannot.*

I think where Western Pagans and some Hindus and Buddhists differ in what we say about a darn-compatible worldview is often the idea that because the world is 'illusion,' that it is to be scorned and avoided, as some read it.

I figure, sometimes you need that, sometimes you don't, particularly.

That idea seems to be more what comes up in the translation than what Eastern religious live out there 'in the *ahem,*' anyway.

Abrahamics have a tendency to say, 'Our religion is the reason for anything good our followers do, and anything 'bad' someone else does, is of course cause they were different, or stood within a block of someone different.'

Heck, I've actually had Christians tell me, 'Don't recycle our waste paper, it'll delay the end of the world if you do.'

I'm thinking, "Well, especially if you put it that way, what can I in conscience do?"

Illusory view of the world, but... There I was.

I recycled the damn paper, at peril of my job. :)

That's a structural problem with these religions, but it doesn't mean people have to be that way.

You can be a guy who says about a poor person, "Their karma made them that way," and have someone like me say, "And what does your inaction do for *your* karma, again? Or you planning to get beamed out of your own mess? Could be you, next time."

Or, a Pagan might say, one of the Gods come to teach you something.

I'd say, Victoria, if your *education* makes you all comfortable saying what you did, maybe that's not what you should be defensive about.

No two individuals are completely alike.

Tell 330 million persons to draw a picture of God as they imagine. No two pictures would be same.

Every person's perception, interperetation and expectations of God are different no matter how micro it is.
Considering the increase in population it should be 3.5 billion Gods. Wake up...your God is not the God what the person at church (contractor between you and God ;-)) tells you. It is the image deep down in your heart.
I know it is little too much to understand for a person who is still learning alphabets of God but with open heart you can one day.

The messages here are so educative! As a scientist, let me say that everything boils down to this concept: That we are all basically energy and every physics law you learnt applies to us too. That is how scientific Hinduism is. Shakespeare said Nothing is good or bad, only thinking makes it so. Hinduism teaches us to do our duty, to be kinder, and gentler and let the rest follow. 9/11 evoked the "oneness" in all of us, compassion and grief of the many became our own private pain too. And THAT is being a Hindu. And that is what terrible tragedies bring out in us, or they are supposed to. Not revenge, hatred and wars and blaming "God", if there is one.
Going back to the fact that we are all energy and nothing but...that is why the concept of reincarnation is so real to Hindus, and that is why Karma is too. After all, examine the Laws of Energy or Thermodynamics and quantum physics. What we say, speak or think is so important. Think pure thoughts, the Vedas urge us, not without a reason. Choice of action therefore, takes center-stage. Perception is guided by these precepts. There is a remarkable story that is going around: A terrorist jumps up in a plane and scares everyone by saying he has a bomb. All the Westerners fear for their life and all the Hindus on the plane say, Go ahead! This Life was not so great anyway and we are going to be back irrespective of your action. Nothing is good or bad, only thinking makes it so.

Hindus essentially believe in non-dualism. There is nothing else but one supreme power. It is the Jana (individual) ego which makes us perceive as a separate entity from the cosmos. Through meditation, and Samadhi one realizes the ultimate truth that the God and me are not separate. It was, is and will be all him, all the time. This is called Nirvana, Realization, Agnipath or Second birth, as we know it in case of Jesus. Second birth because now the realized one can never be the same as before, and now me (ego) and the self (life force) has truly appeared as one. Now there is no question of my destruction (as I am NOT), but one life force. Now the construction and destruction seems complimentary. That is the mythical and philosophical Hinduism. Though attainment of nirvana has nothing to do with Hinduism or any other religion. It is ones' individual relationship with the higher power which makes one attain nirvana, religions become immaterial at that point. Establish a true, open and personal relationship with God…without prejudice, shunning the religious boundaries, wiping out stale opinions and whatever was learnt in past. Be like a child and you will know the truth.
Love,

Pass the buck: Sorry!!! the story is not complete though.the falling person realises these gods are not gonna save him cause they are figment of his own imagination. they were as illusiory as the world. so he prays with all his soul but finds fortunately his body died but he is still their "always was always is Always will".

You write such a filthy things about Hinduism. Is that what your Christianity taught you? You are literally bringing violance in the soceity. If you think a religion is so bad, why are you studying this? It is waste of time to analyse your article. I remember once my Teacher mentioned that imagine on one side of the street a person with a fair skin, wearing a suit and a tie but with a filthy toughts in mind is walking on the street, other side a person living in poverty, a humble and pure in thought, wearing a dirty cloths, then the first person is most dangerous to the soceity. I suggest everyone to read "Invading the Sacred" book to understand Wendy and her children works on Hinduism.

Wendy

You write such a filthy things about Hinduism. Is that what your Christianity taught you? You are literally bringing violance in the soceity. If you think a religion is so bad, why are you studying this? It is waste of time to analyse your article. I remember once my Teacher mentioned that imagine on one side of the street a person with a fair skin, wearing a suit and a tie but with a filthy toughts in mind is walking on the street, other side a person living in poverty, a humble and pure in thought, wearing a dirty cloths, then the first person is most dangerous to the soceity. I suggest everyone to read "Invading the Sacred" book to understand Wendy and her children works on Hinduism.

Wendy

You write such a filthy things about Hinduism. Is that what your Christianity taught you? You are literally bringing violance in the soceity. If you think a religion is so bad, why are you studying this? It is waste of time to analyse your article. I remember once my Teacher mentioned that imagine on one side of the street a person with a fair skin, wearing a suit and a tie but with a filthy toughts in mind is walking on the street, other side a person living in poverty, a humble and pure in thought, wearing a dirty cloths, then the first person is most dangerous to the soceity. I suggest everyone to read "Invading the Sacred" book to understand Wendy and her children works on Hinduism.

The concept is pretty easy - all relegions impose human characterizations on the concept of "God". God is not black, brown, white, male, female, good, bad, ugly, pretty, blonde, angry, forgiving, vengeful, rich, poor, etc. The concept is just created to explain anything and everything beyond the grasp of our comprehension. We humans are pretty limited by our language and only 5 senses so most of the workings of the universe is quite a mystery. Fact is the concept of a God represents our own limitations in understanding the absolute truth and thus also represents anything we are scared of. Questions like "why did this happen to me?" or "what happens after death?" is just a reflection of our own fear of the unknown. Get over it.

A Christian, a Muslim and a Hindu are on a plane when engine trouble develops and they have to bail out.

The Christian cries "Save me Jesus!" and Jesus saves him.

The Muslim cries "Save me Allah!" and Allah saves him.

The Hindu cries "Hey Bhagawan, save me!" and jumps ....

Shiva thinks: I am in the middle of my meditation, maybe Vishnu can handle this.

Vishnu thinks: Why is it always me? There are 330 million other gods.

330 million other gods think: ...

Wendy Doniger understands Hinduism just as well as George W Bush understands Global geo-politics!
And you know what W’s understanding has gotten into!

The fundamental mistake Doniger makes is that of equating the gods (with small g) to the God with the big G! The so called gods are merely representation of various natural forces they are NOT to be confused with the Brahman (or the Parameshwara) ! Of course they are not going to be the most powerful!
Starting from there her whole discourse becomes childish. They she picks up the mythology, (which an educated Hindu child grows out of by 5th grade), and sells that as Hinduism.
The statement she makes:
“But Hinduism, the religion I know best, is not hobbled by monotheism”
is a harbinger of superficiality and downright stupidity she will display in her subsequent post! Not only Hindu philosophers have dealt with this question; they have dealt with it in a much more profound way than many other philosophies!

I would recommend her to read some articles on Wikipedia. The “Dwaita” of Madhwacharya.. the “Advaita” of Sankara and the Visishtadvaita of Ramanuja
…these are all profound discourses that start with monothism and go even beyond in the realms of monism!

I am already worried about her students! If they are learning Hinduism from her; all the gods with small g will be powerless to help them! They will need THE God! The real big guy!

Whatthe hell areyou talking about?
where did you learn about Hinduism as you think you know it

Namaste,

All of us arose from the Infinite, but we have lost our identity- or confused ourselves with our body mind and the world. If we objectively analyze ourselves, we can deduce that Katrina happened to my countrymen, my neighbor's dog was sick, my child made the grade, I got the promotion. The point of reference is Myself. The question to ask then is: Who is this I? We need to go beyond the mind. It takes a lot of perseverence and Grace for this to happen.
Great Masters have lived their lives to show this. Ramana Maharshi, Shankaracharya are the most recent ones that come to mind. WHen one thus analyzes oneself, one sees that one is indeed beyond this Body-mind, World. Because where was this body mind world when we are in the throes of deep sleep? but we say that we existed in deep sleep, moreover, we slept well and have woken up refreshed.
HInduism says that we are all One, part of that Single most Self effulgent one, but have lost our true identity. So it is this way, the One suffers, enjoys, plays, weeps, and goes through the entire gamut of emotion. Eg: All jewelry is different, rings, necklaces, bracelets: but the underlying gold is One, similarly pots may be different- bowls, cups, plates- but the underlying clay is one. So the One has transformed himself for Sport and has become all of us.
But if we have to see each of us as different, then there is our body, our mind, the world, God etc.
So Ms. Doniger- Hinduism did not throw up its hands. For people who can't think thus, we say that God ordained it thus, we suffer the Tsunami. WHy only certain portion of the population? That is when the Karma theory kicks in.
I am sure that you are a very eminent scholar of Hinduism. It might be worthwile to do some more reading on Advaita and Hindu Dharma by the Kanchi Shankaracharya Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi. You will see the true beauty of the religion which sees everything as One : the rivers, the mountains, trees, cows- all creation actually; this is a matter of great ridicule to others only because they don't know this great secret
The joy is when you start living thus.

With all respect, a Hindu.

Some are holocaust Deniers, some deny Global Warming. "Liberated Hindu" is ultimate denier as she denies existence of World itself. Hopefully "bangali baboo" knows that insulted Hindu is a inslaved Hindu by Maya.

their is one more way of explainig evil in the world, because world appears real but is mear illusion.
Hyuman is created in the image of god. image can be as good as mirror you looking at. vedanta calls this mirror "Maya". when hyuman Soul(Atma) looks in this mirror it believes that soul and spirit are different. by practicing dnyan,bhakti,yog,karM! margs(method of reaching Bramh-Atma ), the mirror shatters ,world disappears,evil becomes nonexistant and only "Bramh-Atma" exists beyond time beyond space and beyond any Description.
it is as if you wake up from the dream and you are not afraid anymore because now you know the truth, that you were dreaming.
Soul+Maya=world exist evil is meaningful.
Soul-Maya=world don't exit evil's illusion.

There are two aspects to the Karma explanation in "Hinduism"- one is as it relates to oneself and the other is as it relates to others (not oneself).
For oneself: By seeing things that happen to oneself a result of one's past actions, actually makes one responsible for what is going on at any given point in time or existence. Yes, what is happening now is a result of merits, demerits etc acquired over previous lifes... But, this is not really meant to be taken lying down. One can work on changing one's situation, but with the knowledge that there will be limitations to this based again on one's karma.
For others: While one may recognize and understand that which is happening to others to be a result of their karma, one should not become cold or hard hearted towards others' suffering or misfortune (which is quite often the case in modern India). One can and should reach out to them and assist them in the best way possible, to the best of one's ability (if one doesn't then again that would be the karma of the "others" and one would also incur karma accordingly, in the present and future).
The simple explanation of karma is that of a bank balance. Those with a lot of money can spend freely, those will a little money or no money have to act accordingly. However, as long as one does not add to the bank balance and keeps spending freely, then the time will come when the balance will run out. There is no equivalent of credit cards in the karmic realm.
Since Ms. Doniger is giving her opinion, I will give mine, too. I don't think that Max Weber got it wrong - the karma explanation is simple and quite complex at the same time - but it is about the best explanation. Unless Ms. Doniger has a better one. (Why is someone born blind, another wealthy etc....?)

The solution to the karma problem is quite simplistic, too - not to take birth again. That is, of course, another discussion...

There are two aspects to the Karma explanation in "Hinduism"- one is as it relates to oneself and the other is as it relates to others (not oneself).
For oneself: By seeing things that happen to oneself a result of one's past actions, actually makes one responsible for what is going on at any given point in time or existence. Yes, what is happening now is a result of merits, demerits etc acquired over previous lifes... But, this is not really meant to be taken lying down. One can work on changing one's situation, but with the knowledge that there will be limitations to this based again on one's karma.
For others: While one may recognize and understand that which is happening to others to be a result of their karma, one should not become cold or hard hearted towards others' suffering or misfortune (which is quite often the case in modern India). One can and should reach out to them and assist them in the best way possible, to the best of one's ability (if one doesn't then again that would be the karma of the "others" and one would also incur karma accordingly, in the present and future).
The simple explanation of karma is that of a bank balance. Those with a lot of money can spend freely, those will a little money or no money have to act accordingly. However, as long as one does not add to the bank balance and keeps spending freely, then the time will come when the balance will run out. There is no equivalent of credit cards in the karmic realm.
Since Ms. Doniger is giving her opinion, I will give mine, too. I don't think that Max Weber got it wrong - the karma explanation is simple and quite complex at the same time - but it is about the best explanation. Unless Ms. Doniger has a better one. (Why is someone born blind, another wealthy etc....?)

The solution to the karma problem is quite simplistic, too - not to take birth again. That is, of course, another discussion...

I grew up in rural Punjab. What I saw as a child was this: never was a begging Sadhu (a mendicant)who appeared at your door turned away. Food was almost always given either out of pure comjpassion or to earn religious merit. Animals and birds were similarly fed. My father-in-law almost always took a handful of cooked rice from his plate and left the rice at the window sil for birds to feed, again done out of compassion.

The reason there is so much beggary in India is that beggars find support. This is similar to many out-of-wedlock children born in America because such children are supported.

Regarding the nature of God in Hinduism: In Hinduism, there is no ROOM FOR the DEVIL. God is Ekam Sat, Advityam--- One Truth, without a Second. There is only one power and one presence in the universe, God the Omnipotent.

Hinduism teaches Advaita, non-dualism. It says God alone is. This teaching is different from the teaching of only one god. The concept of God alone is different from the concept of the only god.

Christian and Islamic thought admits of a power co-equal with God, the Devil or Satan. The Satan is believed to be the trickster and a tempter; he is ever ready to delude the Christian flock.

But if God is all powerful, it is not rational to posit a malevolent power co-equal with God. The Abrahamic religions claim that God is both all good and all powerful. But this cannot be. If God allows evil, then He is not all good. On the other hand, if God in unable to remove the existence of evil, then He is not all powerful.

The Hindu notion of Godhead includes both creation and destruction: Lakshmi as well as Kali. Christians on the other hand posit a partial god.

The good professor Doniger is known for negative slants on Hinduism.

I grew up in rural Punjab. What I saw as a child was this: never was a begging Sadhu (a mendicant)who appeared at your door turned away. Food was almost always given either out of pure comjpassion or to earn religious merit. Animals and birds were similarly fed. My father-in-law almost always took a handful of cooked rice from his plate and eft the rice at the window sil for birds to feed, again done out of compassion.

The reason there is so much beggary in India is that beggars find support. This is similar to many out-of-wedlock children born in America because such children are supported.

Regarding the nature of God in Hinduism: In Hinduism, there is no ROOM FOR the DEVIL. God is Ekam Sat, Advityam--- One Truth, without a Second. There is only one power and one presence in the universe, God the Omnipotent.

Hinduism teaches Advaita, non-dualism. It says God alone is. This teaching is different from the teaching of only one god. The concept of God alone is different from the concept of the only god.

Christian and Islamic thought admits of a power co-equal with God, the Devil or Satan. The Satan is believed to be the trickster and a tempter; he is ever ready to delude the Christian flock.

But if God is all powerful, it is not rational to posit a malevolent power co-equal with God. The Abrahamic religions claim that God is both all good and all powerful. But this cannot be. If God allows evil, then He is not all good. On the other hand, if God in unable to remove the existence of evil, then He is not all powerful.

The Hindu notion of Godhead includes both creation and destruction: Lakshmi as well as Kali. Christians on the other hand posit a partial god.

The good professor Doniger is known for negative slants on Hinduism.

Jai,
You are right. It is all mythology with all the monkey and elephant gods. The fact is no one has proven the existence of God. Also Hindus' lacklustre (belief in karma) approach to life results in their decimation throught natural disasters, disease etc. more than say Western/Christian nations.

To Tarik,
You asked to name someone more illustrious than Mohammed. I would say all 6 billion of humans. Muslims are involved in daily acts of violence all over the world in the name of Mohammed to convert the world into Islamic theocracy (like you have already done to 50 nations). If the cops were not doing a good job, the Muslim terror attacks would increase 10 fold.

sorry for the couple of typos in my previous post, and for referring to the professor as "he".

Horrible way to insult the Hindus.

As in: When Hindus round up the usual suspects, there are several possible culprits, and Hinduism has embraced them all at one time or another, in one sect or another: god, the devil, fate, and it’s your own damn fault. Let’s consider them one by one.

unquote;

Look you don't like immigrants good for you.

You have serious problems within the country -----pedophile priests, senators who play footsie in bathroom stalls, elected reps who use call girls, guns, violence, rape, murder, you name it.

Please write about such issues.

Leave the Hindus alone!

Hinduism are far more complex than the capsule version given above by the good professor. It is amusing to see these half-baked theories put forth, and accepted as fact, just because it is coming from a professor of religin at a prestigious university.

I wish the professor propounded more on the karma explanation rather than a dozen disparate theories, many of which are not that relevant. Seems he was more concentrating to be funny, and sort of put down Hiduism, more than trying to explain clearly.

As to an omni-potent, omni-scient God, I quote here two concluding verses from Nasadeeya sukta, part of Yajur Veda, a book from 5000 years ago according to western belief, and timesless according to Hindu belief.

Who really knows? Who can presume to tell it?
Whence was it born? Whence issued this creation?
Even the gods came after its emergence.
Then who can tell from whence it came to be?

That out of which creation has arisen,
whether it held it firm or it did not,
He who surveys it in the highest heaven,
He surely knows, or may be He does not!

What an absurd construction and explication of the Hindu faith. Whatever it is, Hinduism is exactly like Christianity and Judaism in that it posits the lack of explanation for natural disasters that take innocent lives in the hands of explicable myths. The operative word is myth, that is to say, something that most people can be conditioned into believing when there is no other apparent reason for its being there.

Why bother with all that Hindu double talk and why not admit that there is not necessarily any rhyme or reason to these flagrant acts of nature which so so much harm to so many innocent human beings and animals.

Why not read Sam Harris, for example, for more cogent reasons for dropping this animistic dependence on worshipping at some altar or another and simply recognize that many things in nature can simply be explained by the nature of geographical evolution and dissolution. And, for all our developed powers, we are often helpless in the face of such awesome power.

Tony Gillotte

BIKRAM,

You said "In the Bible, god is depicted as someone who is going to reward for good work and punish you with "fire and hell" for bad work." I think you got the wrong idea from Bible. The essence of bible is that to be saved, you have to accept Jesus as your saviour and believe that He died on the cross for your sins. So you are saved by grace and nothing else. But when you are saved, you are to try to be more like Jesus, which would mean that you should be a good Christian and compassionate to people around you. But, your good deeds aren't going to save you unless you believe in the former and that is all that is needed to be saved.

Being a Christian who grew up in India, even though I am very knowledgeable in Hindu faith, sometimes to the point of knowing more about the puranas than my Hindu friends, I wouldn't comment on any of the earlier comments about Hinduism here. But when we talk about things like Katrina, there is something I have observed.

Back in India, people move on much easier from tragedies like that and continue with their lives and make the most of it. But what I see here is that many of the people like to play it up and keep harping on it instead of doing the best to move on. It is evident in how you hear about these "refugees" moving from trailers to hotels recently. I think it is about time these people started helping themselves out. But then again, it maybe because of our culture where people aren't used to as many hardships as what you find in a country like India.

JAI K:

Muslims indeed believe that Mohammad lead a perfect blessed life but he is not divine.

But, tell me who do you think is greater achiever than Mohammad.
Please no myths and half-truths; for he was born in full light of history and Arabic is a living language.

Tell me who you think is the greatest man that ever lived a more versatile life and who has greater influence on his followers than Mohammad.

Of the Billions born so far on Planet earth he is the most influential. His message has attracted hundreds of different nations and linguistic groups. 1500 years later it is still the world's fastest growing religion. The Times of London reported that Mohammad is the 2nd commonest name for newborn babies in England after John (and may well overtake it).

Unlike Hinduism which is limited to people of Indian ancestory.
Islam is a Universal religion.
What people find attractive in Islam is Mohammad's pristine interpretation of the One and Only God which he called "Allah".

This is a discussion on Hinduism and I was enjoying it very much except for your snide remarks about Mohammad, and I felt that it was a distracton that needed to be corrected.

We human beings are so arrogant to put ourselves in the center of the universe (or universes). We want to know why God did these cruel things to us (like famine, earthquake, floods, etc?). This question arises because of our ignorance and limited perspective. Firstly, for God everything is equal, the earth, the stars, the rock, the ant, the human being. Also there is nothing sacred about human life to that trumps the existence of other animate and inanimate things. What is sacred is a noble, pure well-lead life.......All things should be respected. We human beings kill so many animals, insects and plants during our lifetime to survive. The earth has its share of things it needs to do to "survive" (floods, quakes, volcanos). In a sense it is a living thing too...

Hinduism puts all this in the right persepctive. We should act nobly and we will pay/reap the rewards for our own actions. God has no control over this. Because it is a law of nature. It is like the rules that govern this universe like the forces of gravity, electromagentism and nuclear forces....

Everything in the universe has a beginning and an end, and this cycle keeps repeating endlessly. Let us try to perfect ourselves using the repeated opportunities given to us by God so that we may merge with him.

We human beings are so arrogant to put ourselves in the center of the universe (or universes). We want to know why God did these cruel things to us (like famine, earthquake, floods, etc?). This question arises because of our ignorance and limited perspective. Firstly, for God everything is equal, the earth, the stars, the rock, the ant, the human being. Also there is nothing sacred about human life to that trumps the existence of other animate and inanimate things. What is sacred is a noble, pure well-lead life.......All things should be respected. We human beings kill so many animals, insects and plants during our lifetime to survive. The earth has its share of things it needs to do to "survive" (floods, quakes, volcanos). In a sense it is a living thing too...

Hinduism puts all this in the right persepctive. We should act nobly and we will pay/reap the rewards for our own actions. God has no control over this. Because it is a law of nature. It is like the rules that govern this universe like the forces of gravity, electromagentism and nuclear forces....

Everything in the universe has a beginning and an end, and this cycle keeps repeating endlessly. Let us try to perfect ourselves using the repeated opportunities given to us by God so that we may merge with him.

"HELP EVER, HURT NEVER"

Utterly impractical by ignoring reality.

Life's decisions often involve choosing between two evils.

Are you NOT going to cancel a project that is losing money because that would leave the project's staff unemployed and hurt them?

Aren't you not going to hurt someone to stop him from hurting you or your loved ones, or an innocent person, as police often have to do?

There are NO slogans that are the key to living the good life in the just city. Slogans are too simplistic and leave out important aspects of the problem they are trying to solve.

It means that slogan people mean good but help little, and they had better give up trying to condense into a phrase the art of living, which a whole body of philosophy has not quite manage to perfect yet.

Utthramimamsa's comments are most illustrative. I wish he had indicated where he/she learned all this stuff. A reference work would have been most useful. Dr. Doniger an authority on hinduism did not do justice to her audience by holding back what all she knew. I a born hindu learnt about certain aspects of hinduism by reading Huston Smith and listening Joseph Campbell. May God enlighten us all!

Uttara mimAmsA's post gives an excellent summary overview of the sanAtana dharma that has flourished for several millennia.

For those who are looking for a simple, practical set of take-away messages:

LOVE ALL, SERVE ALL

HELP EVER, HURT NEVER

If these become the basis of all your thoughts, words and deeds, you will be following the sanAtana dhArmic way of life - whether you are an atheist, agnost, monotheist or polytheist.

"[I]t es [sic] invarabally [sic] true de [sic] goodness of man will win out en [sic] de [sic] end"

A naive statement, if I ever saw one.

History is replete with examples that teach us other wise.

What end is that, anyway, the end of the world?

Many ends have come to peoples and things and evil has triumphed as often if not more than good. Evil people have lived prosperous, long lives and died in peace since man became conscious and still do today.

This is a bit off topic, but I find it incredible that people balme the Creator for evil and the natural disasters of this world.

Evil is possible because we are not robots. That is, the Creator gave each man and woman a choice in how to live their life. Maybe it was a mistake because people seem quite adept at choosing evil when confronted with that choice, but that is another discussion.

As for natural disasters, ponder this. We have all heard anectodal accounts of wild animals fleeing before the arrival of an earth quake, tsunami, etc. I vividly remember reading as a child, an account of a frontiersman in southern florida noticing how befor each impending hurricane, the Seminole people would pack up there stuff and head inland. Both wild animals and people who live close to the land seem to have a communication with the forces of nature. In my belief system I would say that they have a connection to the spirit that moves in all things, that which binds all spirit including that of the earth herself. It is not the Creator that is to blame for man's inability to hear the voice of the earth. It is the nature of this society and how far it removed from the earth that has broken this communication. It is are our grandfather, fathers, and ourselve whom are to blame.

Thank you for bringing the Hindu perspective into focus, as I find my religion is often overlooked or ignored in the discussion of the world'a "Great Faiths". However, I would like to contest this idea that Hinduism is not monotheistic per se.

If you study Vedanta which delves into actual philosophy at a much deeper level than just myth, you will see that the focus is on the "ParaBrahman"- which is the driving force behind the Universe, or the One God. This ParaBrahman is manifested in many different avataras or incarnations and in different parts of India, different incarnations are emphasized over others.

If you view this as polytheistic, then it must be said that Christianity is also polytheistic, as the holy trinity (Father, Son, and Holy spirit) are all forms of God.

Pranams to all.

I never thought of monotheism as "hobbling." And to call Hinduism "pantheistic" is somewhat misleading. There are over 30,000 gods in the Hindu pantheon, and yet, Hindus also look to the essence of one divine spirit that manifests in all of these deities. You might say Hinduism is both monotheistic (one spirit, one godhead) and pantheistic (many gods).

Not much different than other religions in its sheer absurd answers and excuses. It reeks man-made as all the rest of it.

If evil exist because a perfect universe must have everything, and therefore innocents die, it is still not perfect because it doesn't have "innocents never die" in it. It has "you exist" but it doesn't have "you don't exist," and so on for all propositions opposite to those that are true. If the universe had "everything" in it, it would be full of contradictions, paradoxes, and logical impossibilities. And that can't possibly described as perfection.

Religions poisons everything. See 2007.

I never thought of monotheism as "hobbling." And to call Hinduism "monotheistic" is somewhat misleading. There are over 30,000 gods in the Hindu pantheon, and yet, Hindus also look to the essence of one divine spirit that manifests in all of these deities. You might say Hinduism is both monotheistic (one spirit, one godhead) and pantheistic (many gods).

Hinduism encourages you to come to your own answers based on the available epics and scriptures and your own experiences. In my opinion, it pushes you to question and grow philosophically rather than just accept that a merciful / wrathful God will save / disown you. It is upto the individual to recognise his / her true self. I find this appealing in contrast with organised religion.

Monotheists that I know do not need to look to Hinduism to get God off the hook because their God was never on the hook. The good book says that humanity itself (with its free will) is on the hook for falling prey to the temptation to function independently of God. As a result and as warned, humanity lost God’s s protection against the forces of nature and humanity’s propensity to corrupt under the influence of the power it subsequently established to maintain a measure of law and order. Rather than being “hobbled”, monotheists remain free to accept or reject the solace and help their benevolent God offers in the midst of trials and troubles.

I personally find this easier to understand than what Hinduism seems to offer.

Victoria

The Ramayana is a mythological book with perhaps a real life king named Ram as its inspiration. It was story book written to present humanity with how a just ruler acts, the need to fulfill our obligations and duties etc.It was abook meant for the times it was writen. As a staunch hindu I have no hesitation in calling the book mythology.

The original Ramayan was perhaps written between 1500 and 1000 BC but critic and admirers constantly wrote revised versions and Hindus found nothing wrong with it.

The Uttarakhanda wherein Ram becomes miserable, Sita dies etc was written many years after the original, some say around 200 AD.

Unfortunately most Hindus of today have forgotten that the book is mythological and consider the hero of the book, Ram, as an incarnation of God.

Very similar to your Islam when Arabs contempraneuos to prophet Muhamamd treated his tall claims with a healthy dose of skeptcism and frowned on his fondness for having sex with children, murder, robbery etc but today's Muslims consider him the most perfect being to have ever lived and even his pedophilic ways have been incorporated into a way of life acceptable to Muslims.

Prof Doniger's statements are laughably shallow at best.

For those of you who are interested to know, there are six known darshanas (treatises) that are accepted as true to the Vedas in Hinduism (the correct name for Hinduism is Sanaathana Dharma).

1. Saankhya (Sage Kapila)
2. Nyaaya (Sage Kanaada)
3. Vaisheshika (Sage Gautama)
4. Yoga (Sage Patanjali)
5. Poorva Mimamsa (Sage Jaimini)
6. Vedanta (Uttara Mimamsa) (Sage Baadarayana a.k.a Veda Vyasa)

All these treatises discuss about the nature of the Ultimate Reality (or God or Brahman or ParaBrahman)

Saankhya Darshana tries to explain it using the concept of Prakriti-Purusha

Nyaaya and Vaisheshika expound the concept of Pramatru-Prameya (woefully inadequate, IMO)

Yoga expounds Siddhi (salvation) through the steps of Yama, Niyama, Pranayam, Yoga, Prathyahaara etc.

Poorva Mimansa expounds pure ritualism per the traditions described in the Brahmanas of the four Vedas, and the concept of Karma is an offshoot of this Darshana. BTW, the true meaning of Karma is duty.

Vedanta (Uttara Mimamsa) tradition concerns its exposition regarding the nature of Reality. I will expand on this a bit, as this is the darshana I have tried to study and understand in some depth.

There are three bodies of works (Prasthana Traya) that form the basis of Vedantic Philosophy - Upanishads (about 10 recognized ones), Bhagavad Gita and Brahma Sutra.

Upanishads are borrowed directly from various parts of the four Vedas, predominantly for the Aranyaka sections of the Vedas. There are supposed to be more than 100 of them, but the ones recognized as worthy of Vedantic Philosophy are Aitareya, Taittareeya, Prashna, Katha, Mundaka, Maandukya, Kena, Ishavaasya, Chandogya and Brihadaaranyaka. Swethaashwathara may also be added to this list.

Brahma Sutra was almost completely composed by Baadarayana (a.k.a Veda Vyasa a.k.a Krishna Dhvaipaayana). There are about 550 sutras in this text.

Bhagavadgita, comprised of 18 chapters and ~700 verses is the exposition of various samadhi marga (salvation paths) taught by Lord Krishna to the Supreme Archer and Warrior, Arjuna on the eve of the Kurushektra battle from the epic Mahabhaaratha.

The essence of Vedanta on the nature of Reality can be captured very profoundly in three concepts

1. Deshaatheetha Brahma - Ultimate Reality is beyond the concept of Space (a.k.a known or perceivable universe.)
2. Kaalaatheetha Brahma - Ultimate Reality is beyond the concept of Time. One can find repeated arguments stating that Brahma is Anaadi and Anantha - having no beginning and no end.
3. Gunaatheetha Brahma = Ultimate Reality cannot be characterized or objectified. This means the moment you call upon a God to be just, merciful, loving, angry etc., you have lost the game, since all these are attributes and you cannot attach any attributes to Ultimate Reality.

#3 above is perhaps most profound and most subtle concepts. If one can grasp that by whatever means - faith, rational logic, spiritual experience etc., you have won the game - salvation.

Vedanta also tries to convey the essence of the four Vedas in four phrases attributable to each Veda.

1. Pragnyanam Brahma (Rig Veda) - Knowledge (Spiritual kind that leads enlightenment) is Ultimate Reality
2. Tat Thwam Asi (Yajur Veda) - That thou art. (Implying that everyone person has within him/her the Ultimate Reality.
3. Aham Brahmaasmi (Saama Veda) - I am Brahma. (Here the "I" refers to the "witnessing consciousness" residing within and without you.
4. Iyamaathma Brahma (Atharvana Veda) - This soul is divine.

One should note the inherent equivalency of #2, #3 and #4.

Hope this clarifies things. Obviously, this msg board is not very conducive to have a long discussion, but this should serve as a starting point for individuals who are interested.

How does Budha answer the question of, "Why do human beings die?"

Srini:

You are probably confusing between "arthashastra" and "dharmashastra". "Karma" and "Dharma" are not mutually distinct.

Bikram wrote:

"This is the main reason why Buddha ignored the need of God (why do you need God when you cannot escape the influence of Karma? is the main argument of Buddhist)."

Some elaboration is necessary here.

Buddha's knowledge was correct within some limitations. The Hindus also have the Bhagavad Gita that states unequivocally that indeed one can escape karma and hence the birth and re-birth cycle. Chapter 18 (and other earlier chapters) of Sree Bhagavad Gita clearly states that "nishkaam karma" leads to the stoppage of this rebirth.

Dr. Deepak Chopra opines that "karma" means action that produces some "memory". What this means is essentially attachment to the fruits (good/bad) of one's actions. This attachment is due to the memory that some actions gave pleasant results and some did not. This engulfs any human being. So, a human being gets attached to the deeds and cannot realize the Enlightment. That is, he/she does what is pleasant to feel happy and contended, and avoids the unpleasant that brings grief and sorrow. Buddha once advised a grieving mother, whose son died untimely, to bring him information about any house in the locality where sorrow and grief were unknown. If that woman could do, then Buddha promised to bring her son back to life. The mother failed; and then Buddha told her that she was grieving unnecessarily. All shall die. So, why grieve ? Essentially Buddha was talking about attachment (memory that brought the mother grief on her son's death).

Only realizing that whatever we do is just another passing show, and that by controlling/taming the mind can one perform the regular necessary deeds, yet remaining unattached to the "fruits" of the "karma", can one escape the cycle of birth and rebirth.

The practice of "nishkaam karma" (action without any attachment) slowly leads to the complete control of the mind, and hence complete control of one's passions and desires. Meditation under these conditions of mind leads to the realization of Enlightment - that means one can realize that the soul is a part of the Almighty/Omnipotent.

Bikram, Deepu, Srini and Vijay

Thanks for coming in to clarify. I was hoping for Hindus to come in on Hinduism. There is always the tendency to "see" and "understand" another religion or faith from the one's own, and even to confuse and mix up various religious beliefs, theologies and philosophies sometimes.

Thank you and best regards
J

It es invarabally true de goodness of man will win out en de end. It is also invarabally true de mormons found a shortcut to de Hindu problem.

It has been a one sided discussion on Karma so far and no talk of its counterpart - Dharma. These go hand in hand. While the Law of Karma governs the consequences of ones actions, the Law of Dharma dictates what those actions should be.

Thus, while suffering might be due to ones own actions in the past, the correct Dharma for someone looking on is to help alleviate this suffering.

Of course, exercise of individual judgment and free will is required to understand what the correct course of action is for a given situation

Victoria -

I don't know which translations of the Ramayana you were reading, but they don't seem to have given you a good understanding of the story.

When Sita's husband rescues her from the kidnapping and returns home, most of the court (he is a king) doesn't believe that she remained pure after living with another man for over a decade.

She is so distraught by this that she undergoes a "trial by fire" by stepping into a flame. The fire god is so awed by her pure nature that he refuses to burn her.

Please try to at least understand the story before using it for religious argument. There are several reputable and scholarly English translations available.

I was happy to see this perspective on Hinduism,coming as it did a day after an atheist's point of view in the same series.

But I am unaware of the myth where the human takes on a God's sins..Does anyone know?

Also, I think answers inferred from myth should be separated from the deeper Hindu philosophy(vedanta)where the answers are clearer and more profound.

Hinduism is a way of life? Seems like it has enough to occupy the mind that one may forget to live while living up to it's dogmas. How have Hindus fared in life? It's ever so easy to get one's Gods and Devils in reverse order.

remebrance of the name of god, and hopefully with devotion
it may be different for someone else- that is how i practiced

How does one "practice" bhakti yoga?

thank you bikram-

i wasnt asking for an explanation of karma though.

i didnt say the judgements were mine, they werent and id say your definiton of karma is right on.

paganplace you pack people into such tight little categories.

you misunderstood - i think you missed the first sentence-
"The practical application in real life of the karma philosophy has been troubling for me."

i wasnt asking to be instructed, i did that on my own years ago.

why would i speak of personal observations if i wasnt there to observe them?

so you see, i was talking about how the philosophy manifests itself in society and practical application.

not from MY perspective or 'misunderstanding" but the practices of hindus that i knew and worshipped with.

so thanks for coming down to my low level to describe "hindu stuff" to me, but ive already explored it on my own, gave it full attenetion for a few short years, and decided for the reasns cited above that it was too exclusionary.
(one of your main complaints about abrahamic believers)

im from pittsburgh pa, and they have i believe the second largest hindu temple in n. america.
maybe thats changed, but we have an extraordinarily large hindu population because of the temple- i practiced hatha and bhakti yoga and fed homeless people for a year in venice beach with 2 hindus.

please stop rushing to judgement about people based on such little info -

bikram- since ive known mostly middle class indians in america, it is possible thatmany were choosing to forgo the good karma and voluntarily accept the bad karma-
of course, every religion and decision should be towards compassion, we humans are really imperfect.

and people like to force things into hiearchies with, ususally, most ending up on the bottom.

to me this was a disunifying aspect also-
thaks for your efforts and good explanation.

certainly not all americans try to force everything into a judging god- that is not an aspect of hinduism that i could see ever-

if it is the person themself judging themself through their actions to repeat the wheel of karma until they get it right, or a god judging them- it is still judgement- and us humans judging each other is one of the major problems facing the world today.

i collected many books, and i found 6 different translations of the ramayana.
6!
one had sita burn in the fire!!!!!!!!

what is the point of that???
i recognize and salute the godhead within you bikram and thank you for your patience with me.
peace

Hi, Bikram, and blessed be, namaste and all. :)

Glad you're here. My attempts to explain Hindu stuff to Abrahamics are... ballpark at best, at times. :)

I think you're right, though, in that the necessity of getting along in the modern world necessitates a different view.

Sadly, that's what scares certain types, but it ought to continue to be interesting.

BB. :)

Victoria wrote: "if a person is blind, and begging outside of a 711, it is not necessary to feel compassion, or any obligation on a humane level to give them a sandwich or a dollar, because they deserve their fate"...well, if this is a theological interpretation of Karma, then, Hinduism should have died down a long time ago. But Hinduism has been growing for last about 5000 years ago, because, the doctrine of Karma asks you to become compassionate to living being, and perform your duty (dharma) as your own choice. You have the choice to help the beggar and be compassionate, which will help you to understand your own compassionate self (earning good karma). you do not help the beggar, and so refuse to understand the plight of the beggar. So, you remain blind to yourself, and your chance of self-understanding (self-realization) suffer a set back (you earn bad karma). Those who knows Ramayana would understand that Rama went to rescue Sita because of his duty as a king and a compassionate being as a husband. Ram did not think like this: let Sita suffer because of her karma.
I meet many American who view karma from their christian perspective of a rewarding-god. In the Bible, god is depicted as someone who is going to reward for good work and punish you with "fire and hell" for bad work. This notion of judgement is important to run a social structure, to run a state or govern an empire. But we should not equate the necessity of judgement with the reality. In the real world, in a complex interaction of multiple forces operating on us and our history, there is no perfect judgment. So, there is not perfect god for us. What we have is our understanding of what we are, and our union (Yoga) with God, Brahma or the ultimate reality. Once we unite with God, as Lord Krishna said in Geeta, this world of good and bad become transient, a rather illusive force. And, so, you can create your own illusion, and your own judgement. Thus, Hinduism does not give you a black and white picture of this World.....Hinduism teaches us about the reality of this world, and the insignificance of human history. This may be a bad news for those who have faith in Judgement day..but then, if we think deeply, it is good that we are not going to have a judgement day. Imagine having a judgement day for catholic, for jews, for Sunnis and for Shias! We have enough in middle east and iraq in the name of god. So, let embrace the reality of God..the force of Karma. Let me end this nice discussion with a quote from Geeta: Love, the unconditional love and devotion is the biggest and mightiest form of Karma.
We like it or not, globalization brings us to an ultimate reality for 21st century humanity: how to live in peace having so many gods around us: Allah, Jesus, Moses, Kali, Durga, Shiva..Krishna, Marx...and more. We are becoming more Hindu than we think.

Victoria wrote: "if a person is blind, and begging outside of a 711, it is not necessary to feel compassion, or any obligation on a humane level to give them a sandwich or a dollar, because they deserve their fate"...well, if this is a theological interpretation of Karma, then, Hinduism should have died down a long time ago. But Hinduism has been growing for last about 5000 years ago, because, the doctrine of Karma asks you to become compassionate to living being, and perform your duty (dharma) as your own choice. You have the choice to help the beggar and be compassionate, which will help you to understand your own compassionate self (earning good karma). you do not help the beggar, and so refuse to understand the plight of the beggar. So, you remain blind to yourself, and your chance of self-understanding (self-realization) suffer a set back (you earn bad karma). Those who knows Ramayana would understand that Rama went to rescue Sita because of his duty as a king and a compassionate being as a husband. Ram did not think like this: let Sita suffer because of her karma.
I meet many American who view karma from their christian perspective of a rewarding-god. In the Bible, god is depicted as someone who is going to reward for good work and punish you with "fire and hell" for bad work. This notion of judgement is important to run a social structure, to run a state or govern an empire. But we should not equate the necessity of judgement with the reality. In the real world, in a complex interaction of multiple forces operating on us and our history, there is no perfect judgment. So, there is not perfect god for us. What we have is our understanding of what we are, and our union (Yoga) with God, Brahma or the ultimate reality. Once we unite with God, as Lord Krishna said in Geeta, this world of good and bad become transient, a rather illusive force. And, so, you can create your own illusion, and your own judgement. Thus, Hinduism does not give you a black and white picture of this World.....Hinduism teaches us about the reality of this world, and the insignificance of human history. This may be a bad news for those who have faith in Judgement day..but then, if we think deeply, it is good that we are not going to have a judgement day. Imagine having a judgement day for catholic, for jews, for Sunnis and for Shias! We have enough in middle east and iraq in the name of god. So, let embrace the reality of God..the force of Karma. Let me end this nice discussion with a quote from Geeta: Love, the unconditional love and devotion is the biggest and mightiest form of Karma.
We like it or not, globalization brings us to an ultimate reality for 21st century humanity: how to live in peace having so many gods around us: Allah, Jesus, Moses, Kali, Durga, Shiva..Krishna, Marx...and more. We are becoming more Hindu than we think.

Professor Wendy Doniger is wrong about her understanding of Hindu philosophy. She ignores the pivotal place of Karma in the creative world. It is is the Karma that matters in this world, the rest (God or gods, whicherver way you would like to define Brahma) is all secondary. Even Brahma cannot ignore the power of karma. This is the main reason why Buddha ignored the need of God (why do you need God when you cannot escape the influence of Karma? is the main argument of Buddhist). And, then professor tried to equate Karma with re-birth. Well, re-birth is but an aspect of Karma. God and Devil, good and bad, creation and destruction and all other opposite forces are the result of Karma, the cause and effect relationship. For Hindus, God is Brahma, an intelligible and creative energy (Shakti) pervading the universe. Our goal is to experience the force through Yoga (union). And, the world of war, conflict, love, all these aspects are the creative illusion (maya) where it is wrong to bring God to praise or blame.

Professor Wendy Doniger is wrong about her understanding of Hindu philosophy. She ignores the pivotal place of Karma in the creative world. It is is the Karma that matters in this world, the rest (God or gods, whicherver way you would like to define Brahma) is all secondary. Even Brahma cannot ignore the power of karma. This is the main reason why Buddha ignored the need of God (why do you need God when you cannot escape the influence of Karma? is the main argument of Buddhist). And, then professor tried to equate Karma with re-birth. Well, re-birth is but an aspect of Karma. God and Devil, good and bad, creation and destruction and all other opposite forces are the result of Karma, the cause and effect relationship. For Hindus, God is Brahma, an intelligible and creative energy (Shakti) pervading the universe. Our goal is to experience the force through Yoga (union). And, the world of war, conflict, love, all these aspects are the creative illusion (maya) where it is wrong to bring God to praise or blame.

Hi, Victoria.

On karma: when you say this:

" i have seen this happen and heard these ideas from practicing hindus-

"if a person is blind, and begging outside of a 711, it is not necessary to feel compassion, or any obligation on a humane level to give them a sandwich or a dollar, because they deserve their fate.maybe they blinded a child in their last incarnation.
this judgement is harsh to me-"

One thing to understand about karma is that it's not a *judgement.* It's cause and effect.

It's not just about judging actions in the past: if you pass the blind person and have no compassion, especially if 'you' might have been through or caused a similar experience, then you're affecting your *own* karma by causing yourself to be callous and judgmental.

Karma shouldn't be seen in a context of reward and punishment as though it were the judgment of a judgmental God transferred onto the idea of karma and/or reincarnation and a 'done deal.'

If you're conscious of karma, you can't, or at least shouldn't, stop there. Cause karma is not just judging the past, it's ongoing. Compassion, essentially, becomes a 'survival skill.'

It's all interrelated, ...in the modern Pagan view, it has everything to do with the idea that what we do returns threefold.

I like to say, "What goes around, ...goes around, comes around, and *stays around.*"

Everything we do... and don't do, affects us, our world, and our future.

How we treat others *affects us,* inherently, not just in a concept of 'reward and punishment.'

If you don't exercise compassion, say cause you think you deserve to be better off... Then what do you become?

for the record, my own inclintions leaned toward durga and kali.

The practical application in real life of the karma philosophy has been troubling for me.
it would on the surface seem to be a simplistic and just system, but the result of it is this.

i have seen this happen and heard these ideas from practicing hindus-

if a person is blind, and begging outside of a 711, it is not necessary to feel compassion, or any obligation on a humane level to give them a sandwich or a dollar, because they deserve their fate.

maybe they blinded a child in their last incarnation.

this judgement is harsh to me-
also i firmly believe we are not in a position to judge another persons heart condition-

its their own damn fault just doesnt work for me as a compassionate person.

i found this coldness for other humans not an isolated anomaly, but a norm, and it was most distressing and dismissive of human suffering for me.

also i find the hiearchal structure excluding some and including others, (like women and dark people) another distressing philosophy.

i have never had these contradictions explained to me satisfactorily, and i tried for a few years.

how can we humans who are faithful hope to achieve mercy, if even god does not posess this quality in absoluteness and abundance?

it is much easier spiritually speaking to find a god who suits ones inclinations, than to try to change our inner natures to accomadate the mercy and goodness that god embodies.

well, just rambling- thank you and i still salute the godhead within you,