Sinning does not mean someone is not a Jew or a Christian. Have you not read the Old Testament? Or the New? Madoff did not become "inhuman." He was very human. evils is seductive, otherwise it would not be a temptation. People are not tempted by things they find undesirable. Duh.
The Old Testament would not be filled with stories of redemption or rites of atonement if people did not sin - you don't need to atone if you're perfect.

I am wondering how the media and people would have acted if Madoff was a Muslim or Chinese etc.

Faith should not be blamed for an individual's evil deeds. We would be in much better relationship with most Muslims if we don't judge Islam by the action of few bad apples like Osama.

Same logic goes to Chinese, Russians etc. Not all Chinese/North Koreans/Russians are bad because their governments are not doing what we expect them to do.

Madoff certainly made sure to fit the stereotype of a Jew. Is it really a sterotype or just the truth?

Madoff reflects American values. Their is no God with a capital G, just a little god that comes in handy to justify actions and the lack of action. Americans are not capable of worshiping anything that would restrict their appetites. There are more would be Madoffs than most would be comfortable recognizing. Everyday people clamor for jobs without a thought that a job acquired is a job denied to someone else, within and without the U.S. Who gets to starve? So off they go to the church of their choice to thank a small god that everyone else must be denied while their pocket books are saved.

MMM1110:

It's a stereotype.

Fishcrow is right. Not being Jewish, I don't know what the "standard of belonging" is for that faith, but for my own faith (Catholic Christianity), you belong fully (ie, are in full communion with the Church) if the following are all true:

1) You have received the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation;

2) You receive the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist (ie, Communuion) as frequently as the Church stipulates, viz at least once a year, between Ash Wednesday and Trinity Sunday;

3) You believe in and fully accept as truth all the Articles of Faith of the Church, as expressed in the Apostle's and Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creeds; and

4) You accept, or at least endeavour honestly to accept, all the teachings of the Church, as set out, for example, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The first two of these are visible signs, and can be verified by other members of the Catholic faith community. The last two are not, and can only be known for sure by the indivudal and God. Therefore, the Catholi8c Church simplay regards all who receive the necessary sacraments to be members - to "belong", as Timothy Shriver would put it.

This sits nicely with the New Testament parable about the weeds and the wheat, if one conceptualises the Kingdom of Heaven as being represented by Christ's Church here on Earth. The wheat represents those Church members who actually sincerely endeavour to love God and their neighbour - the weeds are those who don't. The latter are, nevertheless, still "in" the Church - at least until they are judged otherwise by their Lord and Maker.

Since there is not a god, he really wont "pay" anyway, and the "faithfull" are very gullible, sad to say.

What a great article! I love satire! Betraying a fictional being, lol!

It might be more useful to consider what Madoff has in common with all of us and the real underlying reasons he could propagate his deception for decades.

Madoff is similar to his victims in that they wanted impossible returns on their invested capital. That is, they wanted more profit than could ever be knowingly possible. They allowed themselves to believe in the impossible, which necessarily involves defrauding other market participants. Until it blew up in their faces, they still believed in the irrational and fraudulent dream to the very end -- some still believe the returns could have been honestly attained. In that sense, there is no rational absolution for Madoff's victims. They must have known, or should have known, that they were participants in a fraudulent enterprise, simply by the profits achieved on their statements.

Until shortly, we all acceded to a market system in which investor demands ruled all behavior. We, as citizens and shareholders, allowed fraud, deception, and violation of trust to infiltrate our financial system. We allowed poor corporate governance to become the norm in every sector of our economy. And these ills are still deeply ingrained in our business world.

There is even a larger hidden evil that results from such irrational investment behavior. That is the massive misallocation of capital away from investments in human capital and innovation. What Madoff's investors were deciding is that an investment in a real business that made products and created jobs was too risky or too unprofitable. And it was the wrong choice for their money, since Madoff promised and delivered better. How can a real business venture compete with that? This same attitude is behind many rogue activities in our financial system.

All we have now is Enron everwhere. Until we confront that, we are bound for more financial disaster.

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what he did was bad, wrong.
But not nearly as bad as killing someone.

And most of his victims had way more than a person needed. What they lost came from their surplus. Funny, the TV reports mostly focused on the small minority who really were hurt, but most who "invested" with him were not made poor, only less rich.
.

The Gemara teaches us: "A Jew who sins is still a Jew", so of course, no matter what Madoff did, he is still a Jew- a Jew who sinned not only by stealing (including from widows and orphans), not only did he steal by deceiving (thereby transgressing by putting a stumbling block in front of the blind) as well as a host of other sins, but he committed one sin for which our sages teach us can NEVER be atoned; the sin of "chilul Hashem"- desecration of G-d's name.

Judaism isn't in the heart. Judaism is in the everyday actions that we do.

No matter what good Madoff did do, the chilul Hashem that he committed has done irreparable damage.

I do not exaggerate by stating that in my opinion, he deserves the death penalty, and as anyone who understands Jewish law knows, the death penalty in Judaism is almost impossible to actually carry out.

Come on. If Madoff was guilty of sinning so were his clients. There is absolutely no way that all those people were not perfectly aware that they were involved in a pyramid scheme. I worked for a woman who got into one with her eyes wide open. She figured she would just pull her money before it crashed (which she did). All these people knew they were making more money than normal and continued to invest with him because of greed.

A greedy Jew swindling other greedy Jews (majority). Meh.

"These are not the words of a man who lived the ethical or moral precepts of Judaism, so how can he claim to be a person of faith, in this case a Jew? Beginning with "Thou shalt not steal," Judaism sets out high standards about how to live a righteous life. Madoff violated them all."

Ah, the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, by which groups, religious and otherwise, wash their hands of members who turn out to be bad people. This is one of the ways that some religious folks convince themselves that they and their fellow followers are more moral than others. When evidence arises of someone immoral in their midst, they simply exclude them. 'A REAL Christian wouldn't ...'.

A person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ is a Christian, no matter how much he murders, rapes, and steals. A person who believes in no gods is an atheist, no matter how much he murders, rapes, and steals. Morality has almost nothing to do with religious or ethnic identity. Every bit of evidence indicates that religion is no indicator of a person's likelihood to commit crime or indulge in so-called "social ills" such as divorce or pre-marital sex. Even the Amish, portrayed in the media as simple, gentle folk, have problems with rape, incest, and violent assaults.

Mr. Shriver, I wonder if you can see how bigoted and offensive your first sentence is. "These are not the words of a man who lived the ethical or moral precepts of Judaism, SO HOW CAN HE CLAIM TO BE A PERSON OF FAITH, in this case a Jew?", you wrote. The assumption being that only a person without faith can violate ethical or moral precepts.

Maybe the American Jewish community should regard Bernie Madoff as a wake-up call. That perhaps they've strayed from their core principles as a group and replaced them with the golden calf of militaristic ethno-centrism.

Hmmm, being a human also means questioning 24/7 what you have been taught.

And what are 1.5 million Conservative Jews learning about their religion/idenity?

Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

And many of Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have now relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

Timmy wrote, "Can financial criminals like Madoff and Kozlowski and others really call themselves Jews or Christians?" If this is a valid question to Timmy, then the question, "Can abortion promoters like Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi and others really call themselves Catholics?" is valid, too. I'd really enjoy hearing Timmy's answer.

And what are Catholics and Protestants learning about their religions??:

(for those eyes that have not seen)

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

And what are Muslims learning about their religion at least those few who dare question their 1400 years of Islamic brainwashing? :

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder

It boggles my mind that at this stage of civilization and advancement of understanding of human psychology that belonging to an ethnic group by birth or associating with a religious identity by choice should confer trustworthiness to that individual. Madoff is a grand scale charlatan, one of a long list of similar types found in every venue, religious or otherwise. They gravitate to situations where victims are ripe for fleecing. I have no desire to blame the victims for believing in a rose tinted reality; there is no religious or secular excuse for criminality and the damage he has wrought will trickle down through generations. However, I find the argument odd, on the one hand, to now object to Madoff calling himself Jewish and sullying the religion's tenets in the eyes of all, and on the other hand excuse believing Madoff must have been moral because he was "Jewish" and "one of us." This sort of "faith" strikes me as prejudice, and not one that God, with his infinite wisdom, would endorse.

The jails are full of religious folk who have betrayed their religions. It happens ALL the time.
There is no reason to think that folk who believe in the mighty skyfairy behave any differently from those who acknowledge that there is no god.
Who are we kidding?

Can financial criminals like Madoff and Kozlowski and others really call themselves Jews or Christians?

No they can't. They can be nothing other than Atheists!

Kozlowski is a great name for a private detective

Congrats on being the first one to point out he was Jewish. Can't say it affects much.

At least we won't have to look at him being 'born again' in a couple months and saying the GOP's finance policies aren't to blame.

This kind of thing, just like electing deregulators cause they claim to be 'Judeo-Christian' kind of misses the point.

It's like buying from used car salesmen who say, 'I'm a Christian, so you know I'm honest,' and I'm like, 'I'm not, what do you think, I'm gonna swipe your fine commemorative mug here on your desk and not sniff the crankcase oil?'

Fact is, people are way too taught to take 'righteousness' as some kind of buy-able or profess-able substitute for *honor.*

Claiming a religious authority means one must be OK, cause a cheater would *never* lie, if they professed to fear a God... and of course conmen *never* rationalize their actions as 'Ultimately all right,'

Well, frankly, any liar can say that stuff. Now's not the time to get indignant if you let, nay, *demanded* *liars* have their way in the name of an 'Invisible Hand of the market.'

It's not cause he's Jewish, as opposed to say, all these Christians who just take the loot and go on the lecture circuit...

It's cause something was substituted for *honor.*

A quaint Irish Pagan custom I observe, not that I'm a chieftain, is this, ...you keep comfortable seating in front of your house, so that anyone who feels wronged by you may hunger-strike.

You don't whine, 'God will get confused if you look like a Commie,' or 'I did it for American Values,' or 'What I did is stereotypical, so don't look at it,'

You don't demand people can cheat and then get outraged someone actually *does* it.

And it's a Hel of a time to wonder what nuance of religion was responsible for what you Christian conservatives once again *demanded.*

Called us 'traitors' for questioning, in fact.

Madoff and his wife, Ruth, did seem to portray themselves as religious Jews (she co-wrote a book on kosher cooking), and from what I have read, many of Madoff's clients were people he met through Jewish community connections, including organizations and social clubs. So many of his victims (though not all) were fellow Jews and Jewish charities or institutions. These people, unfortunately, trusted Madoff because he was a fellow Jew. So I can understand why many reporters bring his Jewish identity into their coverage. Many American Jews, as noted by Rabbi Gellman's comments, feel collectively ashamed of his actions and angry because he, a prominent Jew, committed crimes that caused shame to the community and hurt Jewish charities they supported. Still, I believe, as a Jew who behaves honorably (even if I do not keep kosher as Mrs. Madoff does), that someone who observes kashrut laws, observes the Sabbath laws, or read the Torah in his/her synagogue is not a "good Jew" if they also steal from people, lie and cheat, or commit other egregious sins. Such people, no matter what their religion, should be labeled "hypocrites" in my opinion! Just because a person exhibits certain outward signs of piety doesn't mean he or she isn't the opposite of pious in his or her business dealings (John D. Rockefeller?) or even in his or her personal behavior (Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc.).

Um, supposedly, Adam and Eve sinned against God and they could HEAR him actually talking to them. Why is it a stretch to believe that a person could steal because they show up at church services?

and people who believe in the rapture of believers think" wow,when a bunch of us disappear off the planet people will really sit up and take notice". yea,they will take notice the same way germany noticed in ww2. how fast has the horror of 9-11 been disapated by the left constantly focusing on how bad conservatives are or how bush lied. it is all crapola.

Maddog Madoff "betrayed" god by victimizing god's "chosen people". Too d@mn bad...