Palin Talks the Talk with Christian Media

Exactly...

Conservatives have a saying, "Liberals believe the state is God; Libertarians believe that man is God; while Conservatives believe that God is God."

It's more along the lines that "Liberals believe the state speaks for God; ... while Conservatives believe they do."

such as her standards for billing Alaska for per diem while staying in her own home, charging the taxpayers for her children to travel, slander, lying, etc.

what about staying home to care for that child she chose to have?

those aren't God's standards, they're Sarah Palin's standards of life - dishonesty.

The fact that she and her witch-hunting pastor rail against 'Witchcraft' isn't 'overblown, misinterpreted, or ridiculed.'

Not when you've grown up with Evangelicals trying to point that hysteria at *you.*

It's not overblown to ask for a little clarification on how she feels about a minority religion that her own sect has a loud, public, and ongoing history of defaming.

There've been two attempted burnings in the past month that made the news. What she brings to the White House, or seems to support, isn't her 'private worship' on that count.

She does demonstrate a pretty skewed worldview, one which is borne out by running around whipping up crowds to fear and hate fellow Americans as 'socialists' or 'terrorists' 'anti-American,' or 'not the Real America.'

Frankly, she talks like the Cold War is still on.

Maybe that flies in her church, but as far as governing, maybe she'd better worry less about Commies and a bit more about looking up which body of the legislative branch she's supposed to preside over.

such as her standards for billing Alaska for per diem while staying in her own home, charging the taxpayers for her children to travel, slander, lying, etc.

what about staying home to care for that child she chose to have?

those aren't God's standards, they're Sarah Palin's standards of life - dishonesty.

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! They're mocking poor widdle Sarah's religion! Send out the WAAAAH-mbulence! Help! Help! I'm being discriminated against!

Tell me, Sister Sarah... how do you feel about non-Christians living in your Christian Paradise of Alaska...er... America? Are we welcome in your version of America?

No one should be mocked, regardless of their religious beliefs. I personally have a strong relationship with God and for those who do have a relationship with Him-- He speaks directly to you. So all you can do is live your life and make your decisions according to what he is telling you.

As for comments like: "It's more along the lines that 'Liberals believe the state speaks for God;... while Conservatives believe they do.' If Sarah Palin is in position to make decisions that effect other people then by her right (given by both the state and God) she can make those decisions based off of what God is telling her.

Christianity is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, not a set of rules that you follow. You live your life according to the way God is telling you in both your relationship with Him and His Word (the bible).

For those of you out there who do not have this relationship with Him, I encourage you to seek him out. He will take care of you, and your life will be more satisfying, whole, and happy then you could ever make it doing it on your own.

Just to identify what mocking religion is NOT - stating disagreement with, even to the point of identifying the absurdity of, certain religious views.

Even if I believed in God, I certainly wouldn't want some nutjob from Alaska telling me what God thinks is best for me. That is between me and God. Do Conservatives seriously not get this...STILL?

Awww, poor Sarah, if she can't stand the heat, she should...you know the rest. Of course we have the right to mock her religion, as she has mocked those who don't believe.

Values voters? You bet Democrats are. We value education, intelligence, a woman's right to choose. We value no discrimination against anyone, for any reason. And we especially value the right to have a president who is smart.

GOBAMA!

The constitutional principle ensuring religious liberty is cherished by all American people; Ms. Palin choice to worship an extremist christian faith is protected by our democracy, unfortunately Ms. Palin is consumed by an extremist christian ideology indulged in projection and paranoia, choosing to divide and attack innocent American citizens who don’t follow her extremist Christian viewpoints.

As has been the case recently, Ms. Palin, nourished the delusional extremist christian war on secular America with projections of anti-Americans and a pro-America areas, this is crucial to her political and religious agenda.

Any politician who willfully utilizes a faith as form of intimidation to influence elections and overthrow of the liberty of all Americans should be seriously challenged and analyzed by all Americans. Our personal freedoms are in danger if Ms. Palin and her dysfunctional supporters acquire ultimate power in the Untied States government.

I expectantly read your interview excerpt with Governor Palin hoping that she might answer nagging questions I have about her faith.

Does she believe in the Revelations "end-times" scenarios preached at her former church?

Does she believe the world was created by God 6,000 years ago?

Both of these questions have profound political and social implications and a simple yes or no would suffice for either of them. And, yet, to my knowledge, no one in the media has asked them directly to Palin. The media, I think, rather than being too harsh, has totally dropped the ball here.

Fundamentalist politicians like Palin have become very sneaky about sheltering their odd beliefs from the media - I suspect it is because deep down they know what they believe is - well - simply unbelievable.

"The problem isn't saying that God's standards are the final measures. The problem is that Palin -- as she expressed in her interview with Brody -- believes her standards are God's standards."

Well said Mr Waters.

Gov. Palin displays a stunning lack of humility for a Christian.

Rail all you want against the "Easter Elite Media." Take a look at this so-called question from Brody:

"Brody: There have been some shots taken at you...regarding your Christian faith . . . The Pentecostal stuff, the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Do you want to clear up exactly what you believe in and so that the record can be set straight a little bit? Because there have been some editorials and others taking shots at you regarding . . ."

That's not a question. That's a set up for Palin to spout pre-planned talking points. Forgive me for not considering 'interviews' with Conservative Christian Media anything more than glorified press conferences. When the people asking the questions already agree with the candidate, support the candidate and are actively working to have that candidate elected, it's simply propaganda.

Additionally, saying that I disagree with Palin's religious positions isn't mocking them. Why do Conservative Christians fail to realize that not everybody wants to live under the rule of Conservative Christians. This would include groups as varied as Catholics, liberal Christians (and increasingly, centrist Christians) Atheist, and the endless number of non-Christian tradition practiced by our fellow Americans.

We don't mock your religion. We object to your using it to govern those who don't share it. I'm sorry if your faith is so weak that it cannot withstand objections and disagreement.

Also, Gov. Palin said this in an interview with James Dobson:

"And it also strengthens my faith because I know at the end of the day putting this in God's hands, the right thing for America will be done, at the end of the day on Nov. 4."

So if Sen. Obama wins, can we expect Ms. Palin to support Obama because he was chosen to be president by God himself? Surely people like James Dobson and the members of the Conservative Christian Media will be equally happy with God's choice in this election. Right?

Yes, Gavin, if Obama wins it does mean that God had a hand in his getting elected.

This does not mean that some of the actions he will probably take are in God's perfect plan for the people of the world, but in the long run, it will result in a government one day that will be perfect-
because in the end, God will govern over all.

For me, I will give Obama my support up to a point.

He won't be able to spend the money he wants to. There simply is not any money to spend.

"Palin: Yeah, and I think the saddest part of that is that faith, not just my faith, faith and God in general has been mocked through this campaign"

Liar, liar, pants-suit on fire.
How sad for Christians that his woman claims to represent your views and your faith. She's a crook and a liar, period. I have yet to see any examples of people of faith being 'mocked' in this election by representatives of the Obama campaign or the Democratic Party.

A problem with Palin, and all absolutists of whatever stripe, is that even they do not live up to their stated standards. Take Palin for instance: It is obvious that at least her 2 oldest children have not received the parenting they need. And she went back to work a mere 3 days after giving birth to the latest, a child with special needs. It seems to me that God would expect her to care for her children, even if she had to turn over her official duties to the deputy Governor, or equivalent.

A further problem is the arrogance exhibited by them, in claiming to know the correct stand and their refusal to acknowledge that others may be of faith, even though they have a different approach. Witness that they like to call themselves Christians, to the exclusion of everyone else.

"The problem isn't saying that God's standards are the final measures. The problem is that Palin -- as she expressed in her interview with Brody -- believes her standards are God's standards."
-------------------------
A secular "amen" to that statement.

In some ways, she almost perfectly mirrors Christianity as practiced by George Bush - unreflective, absolutist, self-referential and disdainful of others who don't share the same world view.

And, of course, they both speak for god (who, although omnipotent, seems unable to speak for himself).

Palin's testimony needs to be taken in the same light as those of Biden, Obama, and McCain. I do know that Obama has directly said that Jesus saved him. McCain has said that America saved him. Biden states that he is a man of strong faith.

Palin, like many Republicans, does not take to kindly to criticism. In her terms, people have "mocked" her faith. In reality, people who dare to compare some of the trappings of her faith with those of the controversial Jeremaiah Wright are not considered fair by her. To give the religious right a pass and to try to crush the religious left is not fair.

As long as Palin continues to practice a politics of hate, ridicule, and sarcasem, she will continue to be attacked by some for her apparent hypocrisy. Actually, when Palin talks about a good section of America, a patriotic section of America, and so forth, she invites a scrutiny that she may not like. Her words and her actions are not those of a bipartisan person.

She demonstrates the narrow thinking of a fundamentalist. Indeed, she even has her problems with John McCain.

Sure people are mocking her faith. That's wrong. But leaders of which faith go to the pulpit and preach loudly and publicly, including on TV, that those of all other faiths are condemned to burn in Hades for all eternity? Leaders of whose faith demand that they and they alone dictate public morals? Leaders of whose faith state categorically that only they and their flock are moral and ethical? Leaders of whose faith demand that public officials legislate their morality, and only theirs? Leaders of whose faith have turned the GOP into a religious party where those not of their faith are unwelcome and strongly encouraged to leave? Leaders of whose faith try to turn political issues on which America can compromise into religious issues over which no compromise is allowed?

Perhaps Gov. Palin does not do any these things. From what I can tell, she keeps her faith to herself. But she accepted the nomination of a party that is absolutely intolerant when it comes to matters of faith. I have yet to hear her reject this.

I would ask her this question: Are atheists fit to lead this country? Her answer will tell us what she really believes.

$6,000 on clothes at Macy's.

$50,000 at Saks Fifth Avenue.

$75,000 at Nieman Marcus.

Somehow, I don't think that these are the "small town values" that Sarah is talking about.

Sarah Palin is a caricature of a 'beauty contest entrant'.

If this is true, I hope that God has all his registration docs in order.

You're right, Athena. 'Small town values' my arse. I am 65 years old, and I doubt that I have gone thru $10,000 in clothing in that whole time. The Trailer Trash of the Tundra is now all gussied up in elitist clothing, and the ethics that conservatives once had are now rotting at the bottom of their political septic tank.

Athena4 :
$6,000 on clothes at Macy's.

$50,000 at Saks Fifth Avenue.

$75,000 at Nieman Marcus.

Somehow, I don't think that these are the "small town values" that Sarah is talking about.

October 22, 2008 4:42 PM

What a joke. If the woman wears low-budget clothes, she is mocked for being trailor-trash. If she dresses nice, she's not living up to "small town values". I wonder why nobody is asking about Biden's wardrobe??? Pathetic comment.

I didn't realize that speaking gibberish (in tongues) shouldn't be mocked.

Maybe, these people should be taken seriously, they can't all be as moronically stupid as Palin, can they?

Why would someone known almost exclusively for lying, bearing false witness, and slander in secret (and elsewhere0 want to discuss her faith? Oh yeah, consider who it is she's talking to.

FH12,

Give me 1/10th of the money spent on St Sarah, and I could walk into Brooks Bros, and walk out looking like a king, with a week's worth of suits, shirts, ties, and shoes. I'd be set for life, not just a political campaign.

Of course, being retired, I have absolutely no use for expensive clothes.

" ... Saying that God's standards are the final measure ..."

No, NO you religious freaks! in this country the voter's standards are the final measure.
Why do you think we don't want your kind around anymore? You hold your god above our country, above our constitution, above your neighbors.

Well you can do that in your church, but this country belongs to all of us, and screw your god.

Barfolomew, you wrote,

" ... Saying that God's standards are the final measure ..."

No, NO you religious freaks! in this country the voter's standards are the final measure.
Why do you think we don't want your kind around anymore? You hold your god above our country, above our constitution, above your neighbors.

Well you can do that in your church, but this country belongs to all of us, and screw your god.

My reply: I totally agree with you, except for the last four words. I am a practicing Christian, but I am passionate about the separation of church and state. I am also a veteran, and still hold to the first part of my soldier's oath "...to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, domestic and foreign...". Therefore, anyone who tries to impose their religious beliefs on our Constitution is a domestic enemy, and therefore my enemy. And yours too!

It is not her faith that we have problems with it is her knowledge of the Constitution of America.

Her beliefs are her own as they are to me and do not cross the boundaries of the Constitution.

"FH12,

Give me 1/10th of the money spent on St Sarah, and I could walk into Brooks Bros, and walk out looking like a king, with a week's worth of suits, shirts, ties, and shoes. I'd be set for life, not just a political campaign."

Who cares how much the campaign spends on her clothing...would this be a story if she were not a GOP candidate. No. In fact, the mainstream media would crucify a conservative magazine for even mentioning Hillary's wardrobe. It's pathetic, and not worthy of comment from any serious journalist/person.

Interesting that she shops at those liberal elitist godless heathen stores.

shes a joke people, she's mini bush in prada. If you vote her in you deserve another 4-8 years of recession, endless war and mockery.

Wise up people

Once Sarah P, Joe B, Barack O, John M, Dobson, Brody, the Pope, the Cardinals/Bishops, priests, imams, clerics, "prophet eers", Mormons, Christians, Muslims and Jews come to grips with the reality of religion, it will no longer be an issue-

The Reality of It All For Those Eyes Who Have Not Seen---

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. www. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals (e.g. the Osteens and Grahams) and atonement theology. .

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and their eternal enemies, the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

chops2 wrote "If you vote her in you deserve another 4-8 years of recession, endless war and mockery."

Democrats had placed us into this mortgage mess which then put us into economic tailspin : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081020/ap_on_bi_ge/the_influence_game_housing

Democrats are very soft on pouncing on future TROUBLE SPOTS like it did with the Taliban in Afghanistan and pre-911 terrorist attacks until they were successful in 911. That attack pushed us into this war.

Democrats enriched communist China by having unfettered trade with them despite the fact that they are still COMMUNISTS and dangerous and oppressive to religion. China is much more dangerous today than it ever was. Thanks to Democrats' FORESIGHT. This too will be a problem of the next president. Im glad the Dems are winning coz they would handle this coming problem. They started it, let them solve it.

Democrats placed us into an OIL CRISIS because of their "green" laws. That contributed much to our economic downturn.

Democrats are very tough on trade to the extreme. The world would truly miss the gentleness of the Republicans on this area. Oftentimes you won't give idiots what they wish coz it would spell more trouble. The world want a Democrat so give them the Democrats. When these people start complaining, I want you to remember that they CHOSE this. Stupidity, BIG TIME.

Democrats will fast tract abortion, gay marriage rights and everything liberal. God will not help us when these coming troubles pour at us.

If Bush was "hellish", see what real hell is once the Dems take over.

Liberal folks can't understand the Word of God. That is where the problem lies. Most of the Words of God have hidden meanings. Do you guys truly believe God was referring to a literal snake when he said these words? :

"And I will put enmity between thee (snake) and the woman, and between thy seed and her
seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. "

CCNL, as I've said, your brain lacks some vitamins, that's why you can't understand the Bible.

I feel very sorry for you folks. You are like blind mice inside a VERY DARK ROOM. Very pitiful to observe as they seek their way out.

I think the disconnect between Palin and what her faith claims to be about is really the problem. family values? A special needs infant being dragged around the country and used as a photo op? Promoting abstinence only sex education then claiming you are proud your daughter made the decision to keep her baby- even though she never really had a choice? Supporting Israel so you can have a supply of Jews to fulfill your end times concept? $150,000 on clothes while funding for teenaged unwed mothers was cut and rape victims were charged for the rape kits? Lies and innuendo about Obama and not stopping people from screaming "kill him" and Obama is a terrorist" at her rallies?

I could go on but the point is Palin claims to have so much faith, to so believe in G-d, yet her whole life, and her politics are completely at odds with that faith.

Why is it wrong to mock her faith? A ridiculous religion must be treated with contempt by intelligent individuals who do not believe in talking snakes or men living inside whales. Anyone who has imaginary friends who live in the sky, and anyone who believes in any of the moronic nonsense that the bible espouses has completely abdicated their right to be called a free-thinking, rational member of society, and SHOULD be mocked and ridiculed until they STOP passing this garbage down to their children, thus creating a new wave, and a new generation, of moronic Sarah Palin clones and god freaks.

Spiderman2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

A better view of God's/evolution's interactions with the human race:

From Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian in his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (humans) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And what "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The reality of it all is that the "pew sitters" and "bowers" are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the "pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies" are finally buried in the piles of utter stupidity.

Spiderman 2 if u believe in Jesus so much why dont u start acting like him?

U have more hatred in you than most on these forums and those that dont believe in god are not constrained by the model that Jesus should be providing for you: that of compassion instead of calling everyone idiots and spewing vitriol. Dunno if Jesus would approve mate.

What makes u think that it is only u who knows the true meaning of the bible?

Your arrogance is truly astounding.

Anyone that far to the right has serious ghosts in the closet.

If one doesn't wish to be ridiculed they shouldn't hold just ridiculous positions.

FH123, "Who cares how much the campaign spends on her clothing...." For months everyone had to suffer through the conservo media and their nightly blathering about Edwards and his $400 hair cuts. You set the bar, you managed expectations, don't whine about it now, hypocrite.

Spidermean2, the amount of ignorance you can condense into one posting is astounding. It's quite clear you either have never read (or had read to you) the mythologies surrounding Jesus the Christ. Here's a hint - Jesus was a liberal.

Palin, Dobson, Huckabee, Robertson, Haggard, Craig, Hagee, O'Reilly, Hal Turner, Hannity, Limberger and Spidermean would take on defining "God's Standards" as their own personal right and responsibility by cherry-picking Leviticus (except verse 19:33, of course) and then shoving these "standards" down everyone else's throats in a facist neochristian theocracy that would castigate and exclude any racial, cultural or personal differences from their own twisted ideas of what Christ is about.

These religious terrorists are no less of a threat to America's freedoms than is al-Qeada.

I suppose God is entitled to his standards, but they might not help us much on Earth. I doubt Sarah Palin would want to be held to Allah's standards, and I think many American Buddhists would be appalled by Sarah Palin's. One interpretation of God's standards will never do for everyone, and there's no way to choose one faith over another sensibly, so the best approach is probably to have the bare minimum of legislated norms for peaceful coexistence and to let people work out what is right for them in their own lives. Religion is a bad place to start looking for standards that will be acceptable to everyone.

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

George Washington:
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

Noah Webster:
“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Thomas Jefferson:
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

Benjamin Franklin:
“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel”

The thing that disturbs me most is the standard being upheld for being a Christian.

The "Christian" groups represented by James Dobson et al are embracing and approving candidates as Christians who lie, divide, engage in and employ sleezy, dishonest and disparaging tactics in order to win. Candidates who encourage the worst reactions from people who feel free to express their desire to see their opponients killed. Candidates who knowingly and deliberately use misleading innuendoes in an effort to mar the character of another person.

Are these the actions of a Christian? Do these actions comport with Biblical Christian values?

The support of such non-Christian behavior says more about the Christian values of the religious groups led Dobson and his ilk than it does about the candidates. It is to people like these that Jesus will say, above their protests, "Depart from me, I never knew you; you worker of iniquity."

------------------------------

"Not that she's whining or complaining about it."

Hmmm....could Waters be one of those cheap shot bastards in the media?

David, your last line gets to the heart of the problem. Sarah Palin is typical of the large group of people in this country who cherry-pick the Bible to find support for their political and social values. By this simple process, their opinions, passions, and prejudices become God's judgements. Everything else in the Bible is ignored or explained away, especially anything that challenges their neat little system of biblical interpretation. No one will say so, but the parables and sayings of Jesus that fearlessly advise against judging others and command love and compassion for sinners of all kinds - even tax collectors - are notably unpopular among many conservative Christians. Also often swept under the rug are the Hebrew Bible's injunctions against creating and worshipping false gods - commands that deserve serious consideration by those, like Palin, who have apparently convinced themselves that God is a patriotic, card-carrying Republican.

It is precisely this habit of easy self-justification that makes Sarah Palin dangerous as a public official in a democracy.

"washpost18 :
If one doesn't wish to be ridiculed they shouldn't hold just ridiculous positions.

FH123, "Who cares how much the campaign spends on her clothing...." For months everyone had to suffer through the conservo media and their nightly blathering about Edwards and his $400 hair cuts. You set the bar, you managed expectations, don't whine about it now, hypocrite."

Spending $400 on a haircut is just assinine...it show's a level of vanity that is, frankly, scary. You don't see a double-standard between the male/female candidate because you choose to look the other way. Make no mistake, if Palin was a liberal, liberal elites would be howling over this non story. I wonder how many suites Obama has and how much each one costs...who cares...and that's exactly the point.

fr the article:

>...Today, Focus on the Family's Christian icon James Dobson will broadcast his 18-minute interview with Palin...

Kindly do NOT refer to dobdork as a "Christian icon", as he is NOT. True Christians do NOT advocate beating small children and dogs with implements, refer to GLBT's the way he does (with utter lies and fabrications about them), nor do they try to break up families by pouring gazillions of $ into the anti-gay prop 8 in CA.

If there is one thing that would improve humanity it would be to leave behind the superstitious nonsense of religion and frankly, the Christian religion may be the most superstitious! It is founded only on some ridicules belief that the New Testament Bible...all 3-6000 different versions are in some manner God's word and therefore the basis for a religion. Never mind the many, many contradictions within a single version; the fact that there are hundreds of sects all claiming to be the one; the absolute disconnect from any rational basis of their beliefs, the utter nonsense of core beliefs, the growing discrepancies between new translations and the Bibles used to indoctrinate followers for years, the slippery slope of revisionist, the pure hokum of evangelical theatre by charlatans and racketeers, the deliberate retreat from thinking into mindless acceptance of absurd dogma, the submission to the evil delusions of psychopaths and swindlers, …
Of course there is not one iota of proof for any of their beliefs; not that their Jesus even lived, much less was a God to be sacrificed to appease that same God for the actions of God’s Creations at the beginning of time; why the torture and murder of God would be an atonement for what must be surely a lesser crime of stealing knowledge from God is beyond me! Why the 30+ years of life of God with humanity has no relevance but this brutal killing does is certainly an abomination! Finally, if the Bible is/was so important that a God had to be invented whose main job was to keep the Bible true; why did Jesus not write or at least dictate a single word for this all important book?
Civilized man is cursed with a nature so easily manipulated by ignorance and superstition! Man is so easily influenced by tribal insecurity and chest thumping bravado!

To MaryB3 who said "You live your life according to the way God is telling you in both your relationship with Him and His Word (the bible)."

First, if you lived your life according to the morals defined in the bible -- stoning your daughter for adultery, offering up your daughters to be gang raped by a mob -- you would deservedly be in jail.

As for hearing the word of God and "knowing" what he wants you to do, I'm reminded of George Bush who repeatedly indicated that God told him to invade Iraq and spread democracy around the middle east.

I'm suspicious of anyone who has a magical, invisible adviser whose advice no one else can hear. I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that we replace reason and evidence with faith and the belief in magic.

If all religions are equally plausible and to be respected, how did you decide which one you will follow?

us-conscience:"Noah Webster:
“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”"

So with all these quotes, and especially the one from Noah webster, how is it the founding Fathers decided separation of Church nad State? No establishment of an official religion?

Webster was wrong.He was a devout Christian who wanted to push his religion off on everyone- he was not a Founding Father.

So since all of them professed views on g-d and religion and how it should guide us, the more important thing to remember is that they did not make the government of the United States a "christian" government. Why? Because men who profess to be Christian don't live by its principles. How many different groups of Christians came here to escape persecution by other Christians? Huguenots, Pilgrims, Catholics, Protestants, Quakers.......,and how many of these brought their own set of persecuting principles with them? Certainly few of them showed respect for the religious beliefs of Jews, Native Americans, Africans or Asians.

the Founding fathers saw this, they knew this and built into our system of government the principle we call separation of Church and State.

If the last 8 years have taught us nothing, they should have taught us how important this principle still is- we are fighting the culture wars, its hurting our country and it will destroy our system of government.

Thank goodness or should I say thank God that we have Spiderman with his spidey senses to tell us what's really going on in the world.

So trade with China was instituted by democrats -- and did you ever hear of Nixon going to China?

I'm glad that only you can hear god and you feel very sorry for us folks that go by reason and evidence and don't believe in magical, invisible beings. Now, is it Thor you believe in or Odin? Or maybe you believe in the son, created by the liaison be God and a human.....And that son would be Hercules?

to US-conscience:
Here are a few more quotes for you:

Thomas Jefferson:
-- "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."
-- "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies"
-- "The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful, and capricious...One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him (maybe he was referring to Spiderman). They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrits."

Ben Franklin
-- "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

-- "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

-- "Since it is impossible for me to have any positive, clear idea of that which is infinite and incomprehensible, I cannot conceive otherwise than that He....expects or requires no worship or praise from us."

John Adams:
-- "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out: This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

George Washington:
-- "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

Thomas Edison:
-- "Religion is all bunk."

-- "All bibles are man-made."

There are plenty more where these came from.

In her cult's silly insistence that they have the only way and the only truth, Palin and others like her mock all other religions including other Christian sects everyday. In this way fundamentalists like Palin have created the secular society they fear and detest.

Wall Street was real secular and now they don't have a prayer. It's enough to fill the Doomsday Book and they're looking for more funds out of Washington. Secular Washington is pretty tapped out itself right now. The presses keep rolling. I guess if we turn the presses into scrap or print scrap paper, everything should return to normal. Quality pays for itself, so the crisis will pass and quality will last as it always has. There's lots of junk to liquidate. If you have a bad product or service, you aren't going to last much longer. People walk away from it and government tries to keep it going. If it was worth the time, it would be worth the trouble. A lot of things aren't worth the time and trouble, so you end up with loses. As the Middle East becomes more exhausted, terrorism becomes less of a threat to U.S. interests. U.S. interests are world interests since the people of the world came here to form a more perfect union and ensure domestic tranquility. We're all set for life. In God We Trust. The next generation too. The creeps aren't making my nephew a slave for a bunch of lies and bad global debt.

In WWII, German Nazi troops invaded Europe and took over country after country.

The Nazi’s set up their own governments and made their own laws and did that which they felt was right in their own eyes, and as we all know, they did some pretty heinous things.

Their view of right and wrong was kind of skewed!

When the war ended and the rightful governments regained control of their countries, they took those same Nazi’s and put them on trial.

They were judged individually for every act they had committed based on the laws that had already been established in that country.

Something very similar is about to happen.

You see right now you are living according to your own created ideas of right and wrong, good and bad.

But one day soon, a KING is going to return and He is going to judge each person based on the Eternal Laws that He has already established.

God has appointed a day in which He will Judge the world in Righteousness and has commanded each person to repent and be born again or they will perish on the day of Judgment.

twmatthews, why do unbelievers have to resort to lies to make themselves convincing?

here's the site you should be reading :

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." (Thomas Jefferson

I'm not saying that she should wear low-budget clothes. She is, after all, a Republican, and playing in the same leagues as Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman. But several good, professional-looking pieces like Evan Picone or Jones New York suits, that could be worn at campaign rallies (and dry-cleaned when they got too funky) would have served her a lot better in the long run. I mean, I can do some serious damage at a department store. My Mom taught me well. She also taught me to look for bargains, especially when it's not your money that you're spending. Carly and Meg should have taken her shopping, not Cindy "Personal Designer" McCain.

Uh oh... someone mentioned Nazis. Time to invoke Godwin's Law?

twmatthews , before Bill Clinton, we have a different policy with China. He changed it thinking it will be good for China and the U.S in the long term. It seems like he was partially correct . Good for China but BAD for America. How bad? Just wait and see.

About God, here's a question idiots can't answer. Is it possible for the brainless earth to make a very intelligent thing like a flower. Man can't do it so what made you think earth can? That's because you're an idiot.

To Spiderman,

Which lies? Are you trying to say that anything that disagrees with your world view is a lie? You wouldn't want to cite evidence or facts to back up your positions would you? Or are you someone who only has faith to back up your positions?

I'm thinking maybe when that radioactive spider bit you, it induced hallucinations and not some special spidey sense.....

Thomas Jefferson:

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

twmatthews, how do you reconcile your quotes of Thomas Jefferson and others which clearly contradicts to their belief?

If you are not lying, it just shows that you're ignorant and clueless.

Thomas Jefferson :

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I TREMBLE for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Not only Jefferson, America should TREMBLE now because God's judgment is nigh.

There's nothing wrong with being religious. Ignorance can also be enjoyable. But when the ignorant get religious, and vice versa, then we have things called culture wars and Christian rock.

Palin seems capable on some matters but very ignorant on others - like religion. Her statement above about religion is pure, 100% ignorance. If you conclude differently, then you're not being honest with yourself or your loyal devotion to God blocks your intellect.

The difference between ignorance and stupidity is this - ignorance is simply not knowing and can be changed with facts and learning. Stupidity is when you do know and you do the same thing again anyway, over and over.

McCain and the GOP are stupid. Palin and religious conservatives are ignorant. Any questions?

ScottChallenger wrote "Any questions"?

Of course none. For who would question a stupid person? He'll give you stupid answers.

Dear Spideygirl - you, madam, are the case study for studying stupidity and ignorance. Your statements are ignorant, and you stupidly make them daily. Case closed.

To spideyboy,

How do I reconcile differing, seemingly contradictory quotes? Simple. People say different things in different times of their lives.

Here are some more from Jefferson:

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

This latter quote sounds like one that is speaking directly to you Spidey, "weak minds" and all of that. Maybe someday you will be able to resort to reason over fear and bluster.

How about this one TW MAtthews:

Not sure where you got your quote, but the founders had diverse opinions about religion. Adams had positive opinions about Christianity, if you read his biography. You are NOT telling the entire truth here, dude.

George Washington:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

twmatthews, you can't reason with FIRE. It exists and it's HOT. God exists and people who lacks brain think otherwise.

The sad fact is, the consequence of their MISCALCUALTION is eternal fire. Strange but true. Some things are strange and true. That is a fact.

Just remember the flower. It is strange that a brainless earth can produce a very intelligent object like the flower. More so the bee with it's long tongue to sip it's nectar.

Try to make a mini robot that can do such a feat. That is if you can solve how your robot bee can distinguish what constitute a flower.

Good luck.

well, us conscience-

In my religion, Judaism, G-d judges you by the number of good deeds you do in life compared to the bad. In other words- do you really live by the golden rule or do you spout the bible and preach hatred and death to unbelievers, rather than live by the teachings of Christ you so claim to know?

BTW, Matthews- it takes a weak mind NOT to believe in God.

Selfishness and self absorbed people generally like to think of themselves in this elitist matter, like skepticism is a badge of honor. Atheism is just another word or self absorbed elitist.

to Counterww,

I got some of my quotes from quotationspage.com, some from quoteworld.org and some from "The Quotable Atheist".

As for Spidey's claim that I should be "afeared" of the mighty fires of the Lord. I would be if God has ever done anything that can only be attributed to God. In all of recorded history, there is not one documented event that could only have been caused by God. Now, maybe you think God is up there designing the bee and the flower. In fact, I can imagine that now. Let's see. Okay, I need to make something that goes from flower to flower so that the pollen can be spread.

I got it. I'll make a bumbly kind of thingy and I'll give it a stinger. And, because I can't really make up my mind (why else would I make 24,000 different kinds of beatles?), I'll make bees in all shapes and sizes. Simply for the variety. Geeze, but Noah is really going to have a problem getting two of each of these.....oh well, that's his problem. I'll just remind him what a loving god I am and if he fails, it's fire and brimstone for eternity.

to Counterww,

You mean it's elite to put reason in front of faith? It's elite to be so foolish as to demand evidence for propositions?

Okay, call me elite. And what do you call someone who claims to know the absolute truth about everything (besides Spiderman with his Spidey senses)? A fundamental {fill in your religious preference here}. I am not so bold as to think I know the answers to life's questions but I am not so foolish as to demand no proof of those that think they do.

Counterww writes
"BTW, Matthews- it takes a weak mind NOT to believe in God"

Have to disagree with you on that one. Don't most people adopt the religion of their parents or culture around them? Seems to me that the easiest thing in the world is to believe what's spoon fed to you.

Athena4 :
"Uh oh... someone mentioned Nazis. Time to invoke Godwin's Law?"

Prolly! Moreover he invoked the Nazis in a rather silly way, comparing those who carried out the holocaust to those of us who don't cling to a literal interpretation of NT/OT scripture. Fact is many Nazis were tried for their crime, but it's because they lost the war. Nobody put Russians on trial (they committed loads of war crimes) nor did you see Americans or Brits tried for war crimes, so his comparison was silly.
The kind of Christians who drive me crazy are the ones that ignore everything Jesus said about forgiveness and love but cling to OT vengence and hatred.

Well Sparrow4

The reason God doesnt weigh the good and the bad (like you and muslims and many other religions with an incorrect understanding of Gods character and attributes believe ) is because God is just. To make this clear, imagine a civil court where a criminal has committed 4 serious crimes ( say 2 counts of fraud, theft, and rape ) - All the evidence is clearly pointing towards his guilt and he even admitted his guilt. Before the Judge makes his ruling he asks the defendent if he has anything to say and he says "…Judge I know I'm guilty of the crimes I've been charged with but I think my good deeds outweigh my crimes, look at all the good things I do, I’m generous, and kind , I give lots of money to charities, I help old ladies cross the street and I even waxed your car on the way here. Doesn't that count for something? The Judge would say : All that is commendable, and you should do good deeds, but it has nothing to do with the charges your facing and you are guilty by your own admission. As for waxing my car, I consider that an attempt at bribery-, and folks that's what your doing with God, trying To bribe him with good deeds so that he'll overlook your guilt in breaking his laws. If a judge lets a guilty criminal go because he's done lots of good things, that judge in not just but corrupt. Yes God is good, but goodness and justice are two sides of the same sword.

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. ..."

Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian, so the God he is referring to in this quote is not the Christian God of the Bible. Palin (a Christian) is talking about the God of the Bible. They are two completely different gods. I prefer TJ's god myself, but neither god impresses me much anyway.

To US-conscience,

Want to explain to me how the good and just god allowed all of Egypt's first born to be killed because of Pharaoh's "hardened heart".

Or why God told the people of Moses to kill as many people as possible during the exodus because they were hungry and complained about having no food?

Or maybe you can explain to me why a loving God has to command his followers to love him? Do you know of any mother or father that has to be commanded to love their children (under punishment of eternal suffering)?

Your idea of a loving and just god does not jive with my understanding of either love or justice.

spidermean2: "The sad fact is, the consequence of their MISCALCUALTION is eternal fire."

Why does it always come down to threats with you people. Can you really justify infinite punishment for the finite sins of man? This is "just"? You're more depraved than I'd guessed. Almost sociopathic.

US-conscience :

God is not a judge. God is not even like a judge. God has no humanly identifiable characteristics or body-parts. God is really unrelatable by any human conscious effort, nor describable by any human language.

What you have described is a very primitive conceptualization of God, indeed, which demonstrates your own feeble limitations more than it describes God and which is only a little more advanced than worshipping a stone idol of God made in the image of man.

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they
[the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity
and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all
others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion
of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801.

Jefferson despised organized religion, it's a stretch to say with certainty that he was not a Christion. He clearly was an admirer of Jesus.

To FH123,

Here are some other quotes from Jefferson and it's not clear to me whether he believed any of the myths surrounding religion nor the motives of those people entrusted to perpetuate those myths.

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”

“The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. . . . One only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes:
fools and hypocrites.”

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus ... in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

“I am a Materialist; he [Jesus] takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.”

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man. . . . perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind . . . a mere contrivance [for the clergy] to filch wealth and power to themselves.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty he is always in allegiance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own....History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.... Political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves [of public ignorance] for their own purpose.”

The discussion on this forum quickly becomes the perennial argument of faith versus reason.

Logically, through the intellect, there is no conclusion that can be reached other than there is no God, or, if there is, God is quite unjust.

That's why it's called faith. We who believe, or many of us who believe, have faith that in spite of the apparent purposelessness of life, there is a purpose.

Those of us with this faith have come to it by a variety of ways: some through a ritual confirmation, some through study, some through a 'spiritual' experience.

Most believers, unlike some who post here, are humbled by the limitations of our intellects, struggle daily to get our faith right, and consider judging those without faith to be an act of hatred born of ignorance.

Faith is faith whereas certainty is weakness. Many religious mistake faith for certainty and post divisive, hateful things.

I assure you, the majority of the faithful are quiet, kind and struggle to live a life in accord with our beliefs.

This majority tends not to post.

Very well said MBUS. Even though I disagree with the conclusion you reached, offering your opinion as such without the tapestry of certainty, is welcomed.

I spent 48 years of my life as an active Christian and only after the more scientific part of me prevailed, did I finally admit that to me, what the bible says is inconsistent with what I know of as the world. Here's the ironic part. I still play the guitar every week in my church as part of the contemporary service. It may seem strange to people, but as long as the church fulfills my need to give something back to the community, then I can support it and contribute toward it.

When it goes too far for me by tying charity with the baggage of religion, then I step back.

Oops- my bad, us conscience. I hadn't realized that G-d has taken you into his personal confidence/ You speak from your belief in your G-d, I speak from my perspective. we have a very different understanding and no way to prove either. However, I give G-d a little more credit as to how he weighs out what is good and bad. Or did you think an all powerful and all knowing Being unable to figure out that stealing a credit card and murder are vastly different?

Posted on October 23, 2008 14:38

twmatthews :
To FH123,

Here are some other quotes from Jefferson and it's not clear to me whether he believed any of the myths surrounding religion nor the motives of those people entrusted to perpetuate those myths.

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”

twmatthews

Your quotes are most likely falsely attributed to Jefferson, and certainly from the look of them are not in line with his other known writings. This is the preface to a site that has the quotes you have listed.

"This section deals with some specific quotes that turn up on separationists' sites, publications, posts, etc. for which no original source has ever been located and with quotes that turn up on separationist sites, publications, posts, etc. that have other problems with them.. These quotes should not be used, and should be considered bogus until a original source is discovered if such ever happens. As other quotes are identified they will be added to this list. Anyone who knows of such quotes is invited to email us with the information."

FH123 said, "This section deals with some specific quotes that turn up on separationists' sites, publications, posts, etc. for which no original source has ever been located and with quotes that turn up on separationist sites, publications, posts, etc. that have other problems with them.. These quotes should not be used, and should be considered bogus until a original source is discovered if such ever happens. As other quotes are identified they will be added to this list. Anyone who knows of such quotes is invited to email us with the information."

Except that I gave you some of the sources previously. In addition, all you have to do is Google part of the last quote I supplied and they all attribute the quote to Jefferson.

So let me see if I understand your position. Is it that Jefferson was a faithful Christian who believed in God, religious institutions and a personal savior?

My own reading has lead me to conclude that Jefferson was so disenchanted with organized Christian religion that he attempted to create his own Bible. He introduced it as a 'wee little book,' and called it 'The Philosophy of Jesus Christ.' I also think it was Jefferson who insisted upon insulating government from religion.

I'd be happy to hear your perspectives.

gerard2003 , if America would follow the verses you mentioned, there will be no second Sodom. It's that simple. Sodom was burned to serve as an example as to what happens if people won't believe. It's that simple. America has become a nation of unbelievers and those unbelieving parts of America would burn. It's that simple.

...and spidermean2 will be there with her can of gas to help things along. Here's a suggestion - leave. If things are so miserably bad here, leave. Let the rest of us get to actually fixing everything that's been torn apart in this great nation since Gingrich's 'revolution', starting with putting religion back in the churches and houses where it belongs. America's patience with you Xtian Taliban types is at an end. Whine and help, or shut up and get out of the way.

OBAMA LIES ABOUT HIS RADICAL BACKGROUND

Oops, I guess not the WHOLE world is going to be "electrified":

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/2293196/pinch-yourself.thtml

[quote] You have to pinch yourself – a Marxisant radical who all his life has been mentored by, sat at the feet of, worshipped with, befriended, endorsed the philosophy of, funded and been in turn funded, politically promoted and supported by a nexus comprising black power anti-white racists, Jew-haters, revolutionary Marxists, unrepentant former terrorists and Chicago mobsters, is on the verge of becoming President of the United States. And apparently it’s considered impolite to say so. [unquote]

sure, zjr78xva- if you like going through life believing half truths, innuendo, unproven and debunked assertions and outright lies.

I am always amazed at how willing some people are to believe anything because they are too biased or too lazy to research for themselves. I read that article- michelle malkin with a british accent. However, while you're asking, maybe you should check out a few of McCain's connections. and their relationships to Saddam Hussein, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, not to mention the consultant who was brought up on charges of war profiteering in Iraq. Make Rezko and Ayers look like angels. And FYI- the favor Obama "did" for Rezko? Buy a strip of land adjacent to his house at market price from rezko. Oh yeah- HUGE favor.

No to socialism. No to on-the-job training. No to radical messiahs. Yes to the only great man running, Sen. John S. McCain. Country first.

oh- you mean that old has been sell-out and the religo-fascist running with him, who was too stupid to notice the scarf she was wearing said "vote" and had donkeys, not elephants all over it?

No thanks.

"No to on-the-job training."

and you think Palin has training? In 3 months the woman has still not learned what the Constitution defines as the role of Vice-President. 3 months! she is so obviously incapable of learning. As for McCain- he has experience, but he has lost his capacity to learn anything new.

There seems to be an awful lot of Democrats voicing their opinions on the website and not so many Republicans.

I have just a general question for a Democrat who would like to respond...

What arguments do you have in favor of an unborn child not having the right to live?

I am a pro-lifer and for the life of me don't see a credible argument to kill a baby and am just curious as to what you believe. This is only for my information- not to start a debate.

Thanks!

Mary- because you define a baby as existing from the moment of conception and insist that life begins then. Who defines what life is, and how does that get interpreted, semantically, legally and biologically? I have a biology background, and am Jewish. My belief in when "personhood" (I hate the word) begins is probably different than yours -I don't define life as beginning at the moment of conception. I don't see a fertilized egg as a 'new life" so much as a cell now capable of developing into a child. But there is a developmental stage where a zygote becomes a baby and then it is too late for an abortion.

But bear in mind a fertilized egg is not a new life, but a continuation of life- egg and sperm cells are already alive. when they combine, they create a new genetic make up in a zygote that now has the potential to develop into a child.

the question i would ask you is why you seem to feel this potential child should have the actual rights from conception as the mother? In fact, you give it even more rights because your stance on abortion would allow invasion of privacy, and the hijacking of a woman's body as an incubator.

And the part I really don't get is how anyone would worry more about a group of cells than the comforting and needs of a rape victim.

By confusing semantics and biology you set it up so that nothing can be argued. don't think for a minute that I don't feel life is sacred- I most certainly do, but if i have to put it in religious terms, the sacred part of it doesn't kick in for me until the fetus is developed enough to hold a soul.

Sparrow-

As far as being able to hold a soul, in "religious" terms, I pesonally believe that God has put a childs life and therefore a soul into that "body" at the moment of conception. The purpose of the egg and sperm to meet, its to create life, so right at conception the genetic makeup is set, the purpose of the egg and sperm have been completed-- therefore that child should have the right to continue in development. The way I look at it is, us as little girls have not yet developed breasts or started or periods (the type of things that qualify us as women) but yet we are no less human or have no less right than a fully developed woman. So why is it any different from the moment of conception to birth?

In response to your question: "why you seem to feel this potential child should have the actual rights from conception as the mother? In fact, you give it even more rights because your stance on abortion would allow invasion of privacy, and the hijacking of a woman's body as an incubator." I do not believe this child deserves any more right from conception than the mother, what I believe is that a woman gives up her right to an abortion the moment she as sex. The purpose of sex is to create life, so because people decide they want to use it to please themselves, then not take responsibility for the consequences of their actions when they become pregnant is just selfish. These children that are killed every year because a woman decided to have sex did not have that same choice. Nor did they have the choice to have their lives taken away. So to answer your question-- a woman gives up her right the moment she decides to have sex. I do sympathize with women out there who are raped and become pregnant due to that rape, but again, the child had no choice in the matter and therefore should not loose their life because of it.

I understand that there are women out there who become pregnant and should not be mothers, in cases like that they should look to adoption, at least then the child has the ability to live their life out. It is not our place to make the decisions that should be left in the hands of God, like when to take a life.

I do appreciate your response. It has helped me out personally. Thank you again.

I am a prolifer and to me there are NO EXCEPTIONS to abortions - EVERY child has the right to life and to fulfill his/her plan: 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you - I had a plan for you"!

It may appear a paradox to many that I would vote for Barack Obama. Let me explain.

In 2000 I supported GWBush and have lived to regret it. Life is sacred, and Bush had a strong 'prolife' mandate, yet he has not been a strong defender of life or of the sacredness of marriage. Today we have as many abortions taking place (or more as one must count the number of children killed by the morning after pill)!

Same-sex marriage is accepted in many States and will continue with McCain/Palin - in her debate SPalin said: "I am on the same page with you, with the Democrats" - so there is NO difference in their positiions - except when they speak to their christian conservative base!

But WAR is also about life and justice - and the Bush/McCain GOP went into that war in IRAQ for their own self-interests - investments in Halliburton and the oil industry has made many Republicans Billionaires as the price of oil soared. AND hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqui lives - men, women and children have been lost. Are the Iraquis then not children of our God whose lives are precious in his sight?

Even as I support Barack Obama I know that christians will have to look within - why have we failed to change family life for the better? why are our Christian children not being taught purity/chastity?

As I look at the families of McCain, Palin, Obama and Biden - the family life of the christian conservatives appear more dysfunctional than those of the liberal Democrats.

How I wish it were not so - but there it is.