Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin

Mr. Waters, a priest does not speak for a diocese. Consult the bishop. End of story.

This priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil. That is not knew nor controversial. Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

Upholding politicians who allow policies allowing the killing of unborn children is not a Christian value. You are free to think and speak what you want in America. You are also free to damn your soul.

"He's saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin. He's saying that freedom of speech and thought is a mortal sin."

Is this really the mental leap you made? From condemning a pro-choice position to "having an opinion is a mortal sin"?

I wonder how many people he denied communion for abetting racism. This is EXACTLY why there should be no mixing of church and state. Pick and choose your sins. Disgusting.

To those defending this viewpoint, the priest in question is showing absolutely no objectivity. The church is also anti-death penalty. Does that mean that anyone voting for a pro-death penalty candidate should be denied communion?

This seems to me like more evidence that the rhetoric that is used to inflame the passions and anger of parishioners is transferring over to the clergy as well. Christianity is not about anger, it is about love.

W

And going to war on false pretenses and having many people get killed due to that is not a sin? I think a great many people think that constitutes material cooperation with evil. I think evil resides in many more places than this article identifies and they all have to be viewed through the same glasses.

I'd be curious to ask the good reverend to find out if it would be a mortal sin to have voted for McCain, a Catholic who has been divorced (I believe the church frowns on that pretty big), and from what I remember, doesn't attend Sunday Mass. I believe that Catholics are obligated to attend Mass every weekend (Saturday afternoon/evening, or Sunday) and failure to do so is a mortal sin unless you seek penance. Also, ask the good reverend to find out his opinion on the fact that even though Obama is for abortion rights, I do believe that he is personally against the practice. Basically Subliminally was right in the post above "This is EXACTLY why there should be no mixing of church and state."

The Catholic Church lost all authority to define morality when it refused to protect innocent children from predator priests. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

As stated, Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

IF that's the case, then supporting the war in Iraq is not upholding Christian values. As taught in the Gospels, the Christian value is to love your enemy.

...."may be goin' to hell in a bucket, but at least I'm enjoying the ride"....

But Priests like this one who like to play hide the salami with alter boys just get relocated to a monastery.

Well, ok then.

So then it follows that a voter who votes for a politician who supports the death penalty or who refuses to commute a death sentence commits a mortal sin, as well as if he votes for a politician who supports an immoral war. Thus a voter who voted for President Bush also committed a mortal sin, it would appear to follow.
But who am I to judge lest I be judged?
Is a priest given the right by God to determine sin? Or is it more properly his role to help sinners seek forgiveness? Is that what he claims?

When a president is sworn in, he places his hand on the bible and swears to uphold the constitution and not the reverse. It's that simple.

MikeL4: You're right, Catholic priests have the constitutional right to express their personal religious views. And the United States government has the constitutional right to tax and police them like any other business.

As long as people look to others to define their morality, there will exist those who attempt to define morality for others.

Just read Article VI of the U.S. Constitution. If you believe in a religious test for office, get the heck out of this country and take your theocratic policies with you.

This priest is dangerously erroneous and I wonder what other deviant teachings he expouses.

Men like these with tendecies to play God are the ones who destroy the christian faith from within.

This priest ought to shut up and honor the spiritual institution of marriage (after all the first pope - Peter the apostle - was a married man) and think about denying sacrament to all the priests molesting kids instead of honoring the biblical institution of marriage.

- abortion may be wrong, but it is a human vice like all the other sins and may be he ought to start denying sacrament to himself to he repents from the man-made error of requiring himself not be married.

- marriage was created for humans (between a man and a woman), marriage was not created for "christians".

This priest is a hypocrite and they are the ones Jesus warned about much like the Pharisees.

First off, just because a candidate is pro-choice doesn't automatically mean that he/she will be able to or even try to change the law. So the arguement that abortions will automatically go up, based on the election, and not based on any changes in the law is rediculous and doesn't stand up to any measure of a) intelligence or b) logic.

So another logical question....does this priest also view a vote for McCain as an immoral vote and therefore would deny communion to those people? McCain is also pro-choice (at least he was in the past)...which is why the republicans wanted him to choose a vp candidate that was pro-life. He also prefers to keep an immoral war going, where Obama did not. McCain also killed people in his life (yes, as a member of the Navy, in Vietnam, as instructed by our Military), and the Bible says "Thou Shalt not commit murder" (and doesn't go into when it is/isn't ok to kill). Obama has never killed anyone.

So, in the interest of not being a hypocrit in words and deeds, would this priest deny McCain supporters Communion? If so, than that wipes out almost every person who voted in this country from being able to take communion.

An organization of Father Pedaphiles whose creed is 'do as I say, not do as I do' and whose influence is as impotent as Hitler's balls, a Priest who condemns one to "mortal sin" - this should well mean something, but it means nothing.
The Catholic Church is so bankrupt in just plain commen sense that its influence remains just a ritual, where individuals communicate with God in their own way, and being rational, tolerate their Priests, Bishops and Popes as people tolerate certain kin in their family.

PLEASE keep church and state separate! The good news is that this will further marginalize moderate Christians. Normal people don't think like this and frankly, are turned off by this kind divisiveness.

Aside from his parishoners who must have drunk the Kool Aid, I'm kinda wondering who really cares what this priest says. This kind of talk is just divisive and hateful. Christ would have disagreed with this guy.

The hypocracy or at least inconsistancy of this Priest is extreme, if not common. I grew up Catholic and have a fairly good idea of what the mortal sins of the Catholic Church are. Number one is "thou shall not kill", but McCain and frankly virtually all politicians in America support policies that have killing as their goal. McCain explicitly supported both war and the death penalty. Even Obama supports killing Bin Laden.

For a religious belief to make any sense at all it has to be consistent, and none of the big Christian, Jewish or Muslim churches are against killing in war. Essentially they support the idea of one person taking anothers so long as their is a political goal involved. I don't hear the evangelicals complaining to the RNC about the war in Iraq, in fact they seem to agree that we should stay there.

I personally don't see sin as an absolute right or wrong. We need to do whatever we can to try and stop the suffering in the world. End war. Most of the dead in any modern war are non-combatents. Is it acceptable to God that we kill innocent mem and women and children who just happen to be in Iraq or Afghanistan? If we make our standard for voting that the candidate not support any legislation that results in a violent death of a human, then I doubt that we could vote for anyone. I would have much more respect for churches if they consistently spoke up every time any politician did anything that might result in killing, but to fixate on one particular though not all that clear cut issue, while leaving all the others alone, seems stupid.

By telling those who voted for Obama not to take communion he most definitely is politicking and telling Catholics they are not allowed to have an opinion differing from the church. If that doesn't call into question their tax exempt status, I don't know what does.

I can't answer for Catholics but this country was established on a foundation of freedom, justice and liberty for all. Not that we always live up to that, but the intent was to establish a country that every one was free to practice their religion, but that there was a common ground, a common set of values that everyone accepted for the good of everyone. Since specific religious beliefs and values differ from religion to religion, this common good acts as a buffer and protection for the rights of all.

Unfortunately, it seems that religious groups today interpret freedom of religion to mean "yes, MY freedom of religion which overrides yours, because otherwise you are restricting my right to practice my freedom of religion." We see how well that works.

religious institutions that involve themselves in politics a la Prop 8, are no longer acting for the common good. they are also breaking a trust given them in the form of tax exempt status. So my feeling is this- the priest can talk politics and tell people how to vote (if he likes igniting religious wars, that is), but we must rescind tax exempt status for religious organizations who do so. If they want to be part of the democratic process, they have to be responsible to it and pay for it- like the rest of us. G-d knows, we could use the money.

Now I remember why I left the Catholic Church, backwards thinking and draconian punishments.
I can't believe that the church would allow comments like that to be tolerated, even with the way the church looks at abortion. This priest should be excommunicated from the church! And besides what business is it of his who people voted for!

This is typical of the catholic church: Do what we say, follow our doctrines, or you will be ostracized and go to hell. Unfortunately, this is not confined to the catholic church -- it is typical of most religions.

That's why I left the catholic church. That's one of the reasons I am an atheist. The other is that I'm a scientist who prefers reason and critical analysis to superstition.

He's only mouthing the dictates of the bishops (aka brahmin) who recently met to annouce their intention to "actively confront" pres-elect Obama. Of course these are the same men (what? no women?) who remained silent in the knowledge that scores of priests were abusing young boys for decades. Where was their moral outrage then? And when victims of abuse at the hands of priests sought relief from the church, what happened? The bishops (perhaps even the cardinals and the pope himself) pursued one strategic line to downplayy the claims of abuse or to discredit the victims. At the end of the day, catholicism, as promulgated from Rome, is incompatible with American democracy.

It is nonsense like this and more from priests of questionable sexuality that made me an Atheist more than 50 years ago.
This "flat earth" priest should be consigned to a darkened room in a seminary for a considerable number of years.
Who quantifies Mortal Sin ? The Church ? with its abundant evidence of sins against humanity these last 2 thousand years.

"In effect, he's saying that thinking is now mortal sin. He's saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin."

You honestly don't believe that, do you? Voting is an action. Thinking and having an opinion is not. He said no such thing:

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law."

Like it or not, that is the teaching of the Church, and he simply reminded his flock of that fact.

He DID NOT say one had to vote for McCain instead. In fact, I know many Catholics who voted for third-party candidates or did not vote at all.

I think it's terrific that a priest actually had the balls to tell his parishioners the truth. Sure, countless members may leave his parish, but countless others will join for his courage.

Jesus warned us about Pharisees like this one.

This is the way the world ends…not with a bang, but a whimper!

You know, I like to think that if I take the time to post a comment, it will add something to the discussion and will be presented in a thoughtful, logical and, hopefully, articulate manner.

But I fail here on all counts, and instead go with my initial impression: this guy's a douchebag.

Sorry.

Somehow, the concept that this country is a democracy built on the principle of free speech and freedom of religion seem to escape the right wing-nuts, like this priest.

I am embarrassed to admit that I was raised Catholic and spent 2 years in the seminary after hearing this kind of rhetoric coming out of the mouth of "church representatives". Compound that with the backing of Prop 8 in California, the Bishop Conference threat to attack Obama and the loss of mission, this version of the church deserves no respect.

This type of attack is no better than the shrill screams of the other right wing-nuts. Perhaps they can move the U.S headquarters to Palinville.

This twisted little man is telling people their souls are in danger if they vote in opposition to the mandate of the catholic church. It threatens to reduce their political and funding base if people refrain from having babies for Jesus.

I am an ex-Catholic. Know when I quit? When my Jesuit religion teacher wanted to touch me. Piss on the catholic church and its two thousand years of lies and deception. The most prolific pedophile cult in the world. All led by a "Holy Father" ... what a dark, nasty cartoon.

When will the suckers awaken???

I wonder if this man wrote a letter condeming Bush for the death of thousands of children and innocent Iraqis? If he did, then I applaud him for his moral consistency. Otherwise, I find his views offensive to the body of christ.

This priest has decided that he is God. He is NOT. He has no right whatsoever to condemn those who voted for Mr. Obama. He should be asked to step down immediately. It is not up to him to "interpret" moral law or make decisions on what he thinks is "morally right." It is people like him that make life living hell for others who are just trying to live their lives. What is a "mortal sin," Rev. Newman, is for you to place yourself in a position where you have judged everyone who doesn't think/feel/believe as you. Voting for whom I want as president does not fall qualify as a "mortal sin." Judging, condemning and denying others does.

If the Catholic Church would go back to teaching values and allow it's members to act in good conscience, it might not be losing its constituency at such an alarming rate.

As Catholic Bishops rant anti gay marriage proclamations and fight any common sense birth control efforts in this country,the priests they are responsible for are making ididotic statements and, if memory serves, also engaging in some very non priestly behaviour

If I had been involved in covering up hundreds of acts of pedophilia, I certainly wouldn't be casting stones,

Do these pedophiles not know what they are supporting? The Catholic Church was founded on follow my god or die. This priest has no more ability to allow or disallow your ability to meet your maker. The bible states the JC died for our sins, this means "he" the son of our creator is all ready dead and therefore all of our sins have been forgiven. Just like the priest, we all have our opinions, freedom of speech and all. Just remember or freedom comes from our soldiers dying for our collective beliefs. This year, be believe Obama was the better man. De oppresso liber!

This is no only politicking, its trying to bring back the church's political power that it had in the dark ages. Two things need to be reviewed, The government needs to review this church's tax exempt status, and the Catholic church needs to decide whether it plans to once again rule.

The tax exempt status of this church needs to be reviewed first and foremost. Then the local bishop needs to either approve of disapprove of the priest's actions, if the bishop approves, the tax exempt status of the diocese should be reviewed as well.

The Vatican needs to review this priest's actions and determine whether it is an action the Vatican approves of or not. If it approves, the Vatican needs to decide whether it is on a path to reestablish itself as a ruling governmental body as it long ago once was, and if so, how it plans to do that in continents full of democracies.

Too many times some of those in the Catholic church have wanted to have it both ways. They want the protections of a secular state, they want the tax exemptions, they want the separation from the state while at the same time trying to impose theocratic doctrine through state law, through church law, through its dictates ands sermons.

The Catholic church has chosen to remain separate from the American government and to enjoy a tax exempt status by staying out of politics. A revocation of that tax exemption would be a nice slap on the wrist to the church to remind them of their place.

And my heart goes out to those members of this church who feel terrible, guilty, and basically like they were hit in the stomach. The priest should be fired. What he did was no less an evil act than his pedophile bretheran.

People that are the most scared of our uncertain world are the ones clinging so tightly to what they have been told is the unwavering truth. Add in enormous wealth, grandeur, power & absolute rules and folks like Rev Newman thrive in it. He knows less about people in certain conditions than he thinks he does.

Yet apparently the alternative vote for the parishioners of this "good Father" would be to vote for a man who implicitly condones the deaths of innocent civilians (collateral damage), the inhumane torture of others, the injustices of an economic system that espouses "survival of the fittest" and the wanton destruction of the planet.

I understand and hate the idea of abortion as much as you do, Padre, but your simplistic elevation of this evil above a myriad of other evils you seem to easily ignore bankrupts your entire sense of morality and labels you as an intellectual and moral midget.

Interesting to how uncomfortable it makes people when conservative Christian leaders express THEIR opinion, practicing THEIR freedom of speech and thought defending the sanctity of life. If turning from sin is not a prerequisite to communion with Christ, what is?

A priest with the courage to TELL THE TRUTH!

BRAVO!

Divine Laws are man made rules not the quote:
"The Word of God". Until religious orders can accept follow and understand "God's" plan
they are doomed. The law of "God" in the Bible states: Ecels: 3- 1-10: For EVERYTHING under the sun there is a season...The key word here is EVERTHING under the sun and that includes
aboration . A time to be born, a time to die
a time to hate, a time to love...For EVERYTHING under the sun there is a season

Here we have a example of metaphysical belief morphing past dogma to out-and-out religious fascism. Some of us out there are atheists who happen to think Jesus was one of the best guys who ever lived. People like this intransigent priest dishonor him with legalisms.

Let's see... the priest doesn't believe anyone should vote for a candidate that believes abortion should be legal when there is a pro-life alternative available.

Does he also believe you shouldn't vote for a candidate that supports the death penalty when there is a anti-death penalty alternative available?

Guess you're not voting if he does... And, if he doesn't, why is there a difference between the two?

Everyone should know by now that God is a Republican, and it is no coincidence that the Bible Belt is solidly Red and voted that way. Pronouncements like these are the very reason why Americans need to wake up to the overt agenda to seize power that has been vigorously exercised by the Christian Right in this country. Between comments like those from Congressman Broun of Georgia comparing Obama to Hitler, and self-proclaimed mouth pieces for God like this Priest, that pompous ignorance is on grand display. The problem is that there are too many people out there who nod in agreement to anything wrapped in the guise of the Holy Bible. There is little difference between the fanatic Ayatollahs demanding rigid adherence to Shari'ah law and our hate mongering Christian zealots who seem to have conveniently forgotten the New Testament. We need to affirmatively ride all these people out on a rail.

Throughout history Christianity has occasionally been hijacked by those hungry for power. The results have uniformly been bloody and violent as the agents of intolerance suborn the true message of what is a compassionate and pacifist theology. Our founding fathers were acutely aware of the dangers of a Church-State, and fashioned our Constitution assiduously to avoid this pitfall. The best way for us to moderate the extremists is to remain vigilant and ensure that we prevent them from holding any meaningful positions of power in our Government. Electing President Obama is a marvelous first step. Ignoring people like this Priest and denying them a position in the headlines would be another.

Recently, I read a fascinating book called: Priests, Politicians: The Mafia of the soul by Osho. The Reverend Jay Scott Newman exemplifies the inherent hypocrisy and deceitfulness found in the behavior of so many religious and political figures. They use the politics of fear and intimidation because underneath the respectability of their pulpit, they represent nothing more than what humanity is at its worst. Since they really are empty shells full of rage religion is nothing more than a tool to propagate hate and divisiveness under the guise of worship and love.

Ohhhhh really? So when your patriarchal misogynistic clergy aren't busy sexually abusing little boys they find the need to condemn the votes cast for the president elect on the grounds, ”it constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil?” How about the fact that President Elect Obama voted against the second Iraq war when John McCain forecast an occupation that would last 100 years? Rejecting my confirmation and leaving the Catholic church was the best decision I ever made. Go to hell you self righteous troglodyte.

I think Mr. Newman need a bit of learning here. First, his comment is contradictory to our constitution. American constitution, which makes this country a beacon of hope and the land of free, clearly supports religious freedom as well as freedom of speech. The bottom line is, he can speak his mind but he cannot force his influence to the political sphere in a way he is trying to. Our constitution categorically rejects the merging of church and State, therefore he must express his opinion in a different way, since he has no authority in politics. Secondly, we need to look at history to judge our present day. Brief look at our history reminds us of the particular danger of religious or spiritual institutions act on politics. Do you remember the failed attempts to capture Jerusalem by Crusaders? How about 30 Years War that wiped out nearly half of German population? How about the collaboration of fascist government and Roman Catholic church during the Second World War? We all tend to have short memories but we cannot afford to repeat essentially same mistakes over and over. Mr. Newman might have been frustrated by modern day condition, but he should be instead grateful. Our freedom, granted by American Constitution, allows us to believe what we believe in. Before the establishment of democratic society, there was no religious freedom, one state, one religion, everything else was heresy. That what happened in Imperial Rome when Romans crucified Christ. So Mr. Newman, you ought to be happy with your share of freedom and respect others'as we respect yours.Yet first, you have to rethink the way you exert your influence as a servant of a religious institution. I think you will be glad if you do so. Because in the land of free, freedom and our constitution comes first.

I was beginning to not think about the Catholic Church - for good and personal reasons. Now it's all coming back. The abuses by their clergy, not allowing women to serve as priests, not recognizing marriages or allowing divorce unless agreed to by the church, and the misuse of parish funds among other things. I, unfortunately, have witnessed first hand these acts by the holy men of the cloth. Let me understand; this unmarried, celibate man is going to counsel me on marriage, family matters, and tell me how to exercise a fundamental American right on how I must vote or he will withhold a sacrament of the faith. You would think that this must be against the law. After all it is illegal to buy votes. I suppose punishment for how I vote is ok. Just another of a religion Catch 22. I would enjoy confessing a few things to this "father". To his parishners: I think God would advise you to ignore this turkey and take the sacrement of communion. Or, withhold your tithe until he removes his nose from secular matters enjoyed in a democracy.

Even if he had been saying that 'thinking is a sin,' he'd be in good company. Read the sermon on the mount lately? "... you've heard it said... but I say..." followed by a list of sins that begin as thoughts and desires. Eve wanted the fruit before she ate it. Wake up. Voting, doing, aligning your world view with, favoring, being ambivalent about, or supporting pro-choice is sin, no doubt about it.

I seem to recall Hitler was able to garner the head of the Catholic Church in Germany's endorsement of his government. It would behove the sectarian to avoid advising in secular matters.

jckapla wrote: "A priest with the courage to TELL THE TRUTH! BRAVO!"

A priest who enjoys not paying taxes IF he stays out of politics. And not just the priest, the whole church including the tax exemption of the donations of its members. This is what he has put at risk, which is fine if he doesn't care about that, but he cannot have both an exemption on taxes and get involved in politics. He can talk about the evil of abortion but he cannot tell his flock who to vote for or retaliate against those wh voted a certain way. There is a huge difference.

This priest stepped over the line. Time for him and his flock to pay some taxes like you and me.

@LIGHTGRW

The Church teaches that abortion is intrinsically immoral -- that is, it is not moral under any circumstances. It also teaches that "formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2272)

On the other hand, "The traditional teaching of the Church DOES NOT EXCLUDE, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, RECOURSE TO THE DEATH PENALTY, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor." (Catechism of the Catholic Church #2267)

So wait? This means that killing people in Iraq would be a sin too! So Christians shouldn't vote. I like that idea.

Why is this news? South Carolina is nude dancer strip joint / church capitol of the nation. They're stranger than their own liquor laws. Nobody likes the taste of them awful crackers anyway.

I'm tired of churches trying to influence voting and would like to see the churches that choose to do so lose their tax exempt status.

Religion is madness. Always has been, always will be. The world is filled with realities that we don't like so we make up stories and absurd rules to deal with a universe we can't control. Humans may be born with the capacity for intelligent thought but it doesn't mean we all develop it. Leave the dark ages of ignorance and superstition behind, come into the light.

As former Catholic U law school dean Doug Kmiec so articulately points out in his writings, the bishops are falsely equating opposition to abortion with opposition to Roe v. Wade. If Roe were overturned tomorrow - as the bishops and their "pro-life" candidate John McCain advocate - it would not outlaw abortion, only give the states the right to outlaw it. And while some would, many would not. In fact, the absolute numbers of abortions might not change at all if Roe were overturned, only their geographic location. (As Kmiec points out, McCain's stand against Roe is as much about federalism as abortion.)

At that point, the bishops and the rest of the pro-life movement would have to decide whether they want to fight a Civil War to resolve the issue (as the country did in the case of slavery), try to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion (which "pro-life" John McCain has never proposed in 30 years in Congress, and has almost no chance of passage), or live with abortion as a reality in the US, and try to change hearts and minds to reduce the number of abortions as much as possible, as Obama has proposed. (Ironically, this approach of changing hearts and minds when you are not in the political majority is the Church's approach to other matters which are immoral for Catholics but have no broad political support, which is why the church is not working day and night to outlaw divorce and remarriage, or contraception, or invitro fertilization.)

This priest can rant all he likes, and continue to use communion as a weapon to try to coerce Catholic voters to vote Republican as he likes to do (WWJD, Fr. Newman?). But I do not believe that I, as a pro-life Catholic on abortion, who also opposes the war in Iraq, the death penalty, and euthanasia, have committed a mortal sin because I disagree with the bishops on political strategy, and voted for Obama.

This is why we have seperation of church and state! Thank God.

Wow... As a Lutheran, I believe that we're saved by faith alone by God's Grace.

That said, I've also come to believe that Catholicism was engineered by the preists, bishops, papacy, etc. to be a medieval control mechanism - a way to keep the 'common folk' under control.

Evidently, this priest thinks it is still 1514 - I wonder if he sells indulgences too?

Well-written piece, Mr. Waters. There's a reason the Protestant Reformation took place, and this is a prime example of it.

@JAYPEM

He never said you must vote for McCain. I know plenty of Catholics who either voted third party or did not vote.

"He's only mouthing the dictates of the bishops (aka brahmin) who recently met to annouce their intention to "actively confront" pres-elect Obama. Of course these are the same men (what? no women?) who remained silent in the knowledge that scores of priests were abusing young boys for decades. Where was their moral outrage then?"

Not just "were" abusing boys... they still "are" abusing boys. These Taliban are enabling each other, have been for a long time, will keep doing it until they are brought to justice.

What is worse, their "flock" is so brainwashed that these perverts are privy to the voice of God -that the lay community also enable these criminals and their organized crimes.

Catholic Church, Mafia, Taliban... all demand submission in the face of their outlandish abuses.

Neither does the bishop or the pope speak for christ.

Why does the catholic church not take quotes from the bible rather than their book, which was written with the intent of power and money.

I just want to ask one question the roman catholics.

What makes the pope speak for Christ? when he is chosen and voted by men?

Why does the popes crown have the latin inscription "Vicarius Filii Dei" which if added with roman numerals become 6 6 6 also if translated into english means

Vicar of son of God Or In the Stead of christ.

Such blasphemy by a man chosen by men.

quoted for great truth

"I've also come to believe that Catholicism was engineered by the preists, bishops, papacy, etc. to be a medieval control mechanism - a way to keep the 'common folk' under control."

broknprism wrote: "Voting, doing, aligning your world view with, favoring, being ambivalent about, or supporting pro-choice is sin, no doubt about it."

Its not a question of right or wrong or whether the priest had a right to say what he said, he did have a right to say what he did. This is America. What really matters is section 501(c)(3) of the tax code.

Organizations which receive a 501(c)(3) tax exemption have a clear and simple choice to make: they can engage in religious activities and retain their exemption, or they can engage in political activity and lose it, but they cannot engage in political activity and retain their exemption.

By not taxing churches, the government is prevented from directly interfering with how those churches operate. By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate such that the effectively endorse that person’s opponent.

That is the issue. This priest has decided to break the provisions of his 501(c)(3) tax exemption for himself and his church, meaning his parishionars donations are no longer tax exempt as well as his salary. If that is what he wanted that is fine. If that is not what he wanted, then he needs to review his tax exemption again since right now the IRS is probably looking at it too.

No one cares what this priest said to his flock, except maybe the flock. What we care about is that he is having his cake and eating it too, enjoying a 501(c)(3) tax exemption while engaging in politics prohibited by 501(c)(3). Sorry, I'm not about to stand by and see tax law broken by priests who use their power of guilt and church law to influence elections via their flock and then not pay a dime in tax.

"cooperation with intrinsic evil"?????

Guess ill run right out to my local "guilt booth" and unburden my unclean soul to a potential pedophile so that i may return to the good graces of the Romans.

Only then will I be able to, in good conscience, eat a waffer.

Glad the Shaman made this righeous decree to help me out.

This is exactly why the Catholic church is in the dire straits it has been in for so long.Terrorising your parishoners with :Mortal Sins"??Im so happy i parted ways with the church long ago.To threaten a persons own identity with the mess this country is in,in Bushes own words "god has spoken to me" really makes you wonder what God would really think about this position.And to seperate them from the church for Pennance,wonder how much that costs these days??This whole ideal allways brings up that cute phrase,WWJD!?I personnaly beleive Jesus would be pretty Irate at a priest, or alleged Holy Man, who would deny a willing participant for any reason.

1, the catholic Priest can prove his case from the Bible with Scripture stating that abortion is Quote "an abomination unto the lord"

2, to me it is interested that Obama supports both Abortion and Stem Cell Research
They are at seprate ends of the same spectrum
therefore I think a vote for Obama was A vote for "god"
He has a plan
These are the Days of NOe
if you know what the hebrew word nephel means and its relation to Noe then you understand
thank you

How old is the guy and what country is he from?
Does he also tell parishioners not to read the Bible on their own?

I liked that quote, "serve communion to anyone with a pulse." That's us too. Presbyters are very similar to Methodists, but with more holiday decorations.

Our church organization would cease to exist if we were condemned by it for our votes and opinions.

You Catholics: Don't let the thought police steal your freedom.

Religion was thought up to control people. Period. Listening seriously to this priest is like relinguishing your free will!

Okay, let's switch gears for a second. If McCain supports the death penalty, wouldln't it be morally wrong to vote for either candidate? If they are truly evangelistic, how can they justify putting a criminal to death at the pinnacle of their sinful ways? Wouldn't that only be condemning them to Hell? How do they justify supporting a president who wants to continue waging war? On the flip side, if abortion is murder, they should obviously treat it as such, right? So, if a 22 year old mother has an abortion, she should be put to death for murder, correct? And those who aid in that abortion should be placed in jail for conspiracy to commit a murder. If they don't REALLY feel that's the case, then they would be admitting that abortions are "lesser" crimes than murder. I wonder what their answer to that would be?

@BEVJIMS1

Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth.

Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors.

jckapla wrote: "He never said you must vote for McCain. I know plenty of Catholics who either voted third party or did not vote."

No, he said who you could not vote for. There is no difference. He broke 501(c)(3)'s provisions is he said voting for Obama is a sin of any kind.

You can read more about 501(c)(3) here:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=163395,00.html

@BEVJIMS

I never said he did not violate tax law.

I said bravo to him for speaking the truth.

I think that the entire HEART of this here issue, is about our beliefs in Christ (The Purpose of our Christianity faith), first and foremost. Darn the opinions, or thoughts, whatever. I'm disappointed that this article didn't address the core root of this problem in this article.

I'm Christian, but I'm not a Catholic. I don't know what bible Catholics read. I read The Holy Bible, and I believe that Christ paid for our sins, and acceptance and submission to God through Him is The Way. That is my path. I don't need a clergy to tell me what his agenda is, and use My Faith, to try to manipulate my voting patterns. There's more problems, Christians, than one single issue. There's a lot that needs prioritizing. It is one thing for individuals to make their choices, but it's quite another for the government to vastly aid in the problems that affects a broader group of people. As Christians, I believe it is our duty to see to fairness and fight for what is right on the vast. I believe it is our purpose to spread The Word IN A HUMBLE FASHION and not by Force. My Christ did not spread The Message by Force over the lives of the poulation. I don't believe that is our place as Christians, representative of our Christ. Does that make sense? I don't know what bible the clergy reads, but the acceptance or forgiveness of our God and Christ is NOT in his power and he is not above anyone else to decide he has that authority, as far as my understanding goes. He is human like all the rest of us ordinary and flawed beings, and therefore he is in the exact same fix for judgment as all else (with my understanding of my Faith). It's not up to this clergy to decide, and my Bible says different.

Again, all Christians aren't in sync. I'm a Christian, but I'm not Catholic. This is the core issue that needs to be addressed, not opinions behind voting and such. That's only a part of the issue, but the heart of it is the consistency of his behavior with the teachings of our faith in general, and with question of his authority behind it all. The peripheral part of the issue, then, is the question of why he is using or manipulating the faith to support his own voting preferences. That's the second part of the issue. I write here, but I observe these patterns in silence and in amazement.

another random religious zealot wrote

"Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth.

Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors."

give us what we want or we're taking our ball and going home. good riddance. if this is what your organization actually believes then seriously get out of my country. Im sure there are many other more tolerant and open places on the planet for a pile of tax exempt pedophiles.

that is to say- that God is using Obama in quite the same way he used Nebuchadrezzer ( that doesnt make Obama pious though infact he is a self- righteous bigot who will lead America to its doom)
The Mayan prophecy of 2012 takes on an eerie feel now-
Russia is flexing its muscle
Iran feels good about him
The Americas is turning into an Iron Curtain
hmmm
I think onhindsight we are all going to be so sorry

What a Jackass ~~~Newman Go back to molesting young boys

krisj451: One could effectively argue that the role of the Church was to do more than keep the serfs under control, but the state as well. After all, what power is higher than the Almighty? The Church of England was established specifically to limit the influence of the (foreign) Pope on the politics of England. It's pretty clear that, throughout history, the church and the government (when they are not one and the same) have been locked in a power struggle, and it is only quite recently that the Church has taken a back seat to the State in western societies. It would be foolish to presume they will be content with this state of affairs.

As far as tax exemption goes, most churches back one politician or another, and you're not going to see the IRS cracking down on the policy.. mostly for fear of the backlash (since a majority of this country is religious), but also because it's difficult or impossible to prove that the endorsement was not a form of religious expression.

jckapla wrote: "Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth."

No, just the taxes that the priest and his congregation will now be paying.

jckapla wrote: "Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors."

This does not affect the entire church, unless it approves and all priests start doing this. But it will affect this priest's tax exmption and his congregation's, which will likely look for a new church since their contributions will no longer be tax deductable. Which is why I think this priest will be fired or removed as so many pedophile priests were removed and put in out of the way church jobs.

The church will protect its tax exemption, you can be sure of that. What is a sin and what is allowed in church law changes with the ages but money is something the church has never changed its opinions of. By the way, its Friday. Is it still a sin to eat meat, in America anyway, on Friday?

It is sad to see so many people condemn this priest for simply saying what he believes, and what the Catholic Church teaches, that abortion is the killing of a human being, and Catholic Christians ought not to support it or anyone who approves of it. People condemn Bush for an "immoral war" where we've lost 4,000 American troops, (and admittedly Iraq has lost many thousands more, often at the hands of their fellow countrymen) but ignore the 4,000 babies killed EVERY DAY through abortion in the U.S. alone. That's right, we kill off 4,000 future U.S. citizens EVERY DAY (about 1.5 million a year)AND HAVE DONE THIS FOR MORE THAN 35 YEARS. Where's the immorality and the hypocrisy? It's laid at the doorstep of people who see nothing wrong with killing off those who have no voice (preborn children)yet say it was "immoral" to remove a despot from power who regularly starved his own people and murdered tens of thousands. Tell me this isn't a travesty. Tell me we don't have something backwards in our ethics. I'm tired of people saying religion has no place in law or governance. If our laws aren't based on some religious foundation, then what will we base them on? The Judeo-Christian ethic has served our country pretty well so far. The fact is, someone's vision will guide our country one way or the other. The last century proved that it's the atheistic Socialist/Communist worldview which has proved to be far more dangerous to life, liberty, and peace.

"By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate such that the effectively endorse that person’s opponent."

This is not the worst of it, they also use "sanctuary" to obstruct justice, hide evidence that would implicate their pedophiles and themselves.

Also, as in the case of Bernard Francis Law they can flee the country under the cover of Constitutional protection.

Even thought Law "begged forgiveness" in the USA, (he should have been rapidly apprehended!) pope John Paul brought him to Rome and Law is currently the archpriest of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore. This is as corrupt as anything can get.

Priests don't condone abortion, but ignore child molestion and statutory rape inflicted onto minors by priests. They look the other way when their colleagues commit this crime. They don't hold back communion for these sinners.

@AGENTLEMON

I didn't state that as a threat, simply a matter of fact. If you tax the whole Church, they'll have no choice but to close the doors of countless institutions.

AMEN Obama2008!

The first issue I took with this article was "How can that presumptuous ass of a priest have the AUDACITY to proclaim me cut off from salvation & Jesus Christ because of the way I voted?!"

We are saved thru faith in God and by his Grace alone - no priest, pope, bishop, or anyone else in mankind can put any sort of condition on it. Period.

YES!!! Yes! Great! It's about time priests, ministers, rabiis, mullahs, imans, monks, bishops, popes, et al, grew some hair and came out from under their rocks. Why is the world so filthy and screwed up? You bet! That Old Devil is out and about screwing up everything and everyone. If there really is a God, why aren't these servents serving and doing what's right and proper? Sheep are going to scatter when shepherds are out and about mollesting children, having affairs with the wives of members, not visiting the sick and poor, and doing all kinds of things they ought to burn for. And about that IRS rule. I, for one, think it ought to be reversed; any religious who isn't raising holy damnation about what's wrong ought to be taxed at the level of 99% of earnings and handouts. Everything that's wrong with this country can be traced to weak, incompetent, sleezy, worthless clergy of every faith (some even like to encourage their faithful to blow up World Trade Centers). If you need specific proof of how bad things are, look at California; everyone of those illegals (75% of the population) went to church before crossing the border into the USA, now they don't see the inside of a church unless they're hiding from Immigration Agents. It's about time someone started acting like a believer. Congratulations Padre! Give 'em hell!

The RCC knows that voting for Obama is much worse than sexually abusing a child or than covering up for a child abuser. They (the RCC) has their priorities and number 1 is to protect the priests, bishops, archbishops and cardinals regardless of what it takes and regardless of their crimes.

"I'm tired of people saying religion has no place in law or governance."

Fine. Move to Pakistan, you'll love it there.

Obama support of Stem cell research is demonic as his support of Abortion
If this is his agenda- then McCain never stood a chance.
Stem cell research is not new
in the days of Noe- it was practiced
Taken from the Hebrew nephel - an abortion also means a stem cell

There's two things goin' on here. One is that this priest, rightly, has to tell his "flock" that they are in danger under the current rules of the church. The second is that he did it in written form which is why you're reading it.

This is not saying that they can't vote for Obama. They didn't know about the church's outdated and arbitrary rules. He's just telling them to get right with G-d before they do something potentially fatal to their souls.
He's just doing his job. Bravo!

As far as the arrogance of te church to think they know G-ds plan about abortion though, that's another issue. G-d is not stupid. He knows if a fetus will be terminated. He would not put a soul into one that will never be born. The church needs to get over itself and let G-d do the judging.This priest would be free to tell his congregation that they may do anything they want and the church has no stand on this at all. to take a stand, in this case, is a sin of pride. IMHO!

Dear Plaza: Pakistan HAS a religion. It's called ISLAM, you moron!

I guess molesting innocent children is ok. The Church transfers the molester to another church to continue his sinning. But hey they still get there communion. Newman you are not GOD to be denying communion and you are a shame to the word of GOD. Abortion has been around for a long time. Now you are with holding communion. When a person dies they will meet there maker and receive judgment. Newman you are not the maker or should you judge. That’s GODS job… It also amaze me how the word of GOD can be twisted to benefit there needs or beliefs.

LOL and this coming from a priest within the Catholic religion who is famous for molesting little boys and then having the church move the priests and protect them.

Go fondle some more boys. Oh and as to god, oh well I dont believe in your lies and your imaginary play friend that so many adults like to buy into.

@MSMITH97

"G-d is not stupid. He knows if a fetus will be terminated. He would not put a soul into one that will never be born."

That's a new one. Is that how you justify it?

Doesn't God also know if a person will be murdered? Are all those people soulless zombies? Or does God take back their souls moments before they are killed?

God gave us free will. If we choose evil, he will not stop us.

Plaza0433, I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels.

By the way, your children and wife are safer in Pakistan than they are in the U.S., even with the problems they're currently going through in that country, because they stick to their "backward" religious codes better than we do here.

If you follow church doctrine strictly, maybe this priest is right.

So I have a theological question. The civilian body count in Iraq is approaching 100,000. (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

It's an illegal and immoral war based on lies.

Now some of those killed are children, pregnant women and their unborn, old people, the disabled etc. An WE (the good guys) are doing all this killing, without a plan to knock it off anytime soon.

Why do most people of faith never take a stand on this issue. Is that not hypocrisy? Why should we respect an easily held article of faith that is not professed with integrity?

I've also wondered about the landmines WE (the good guys) leave behind to again blow the limbs off the innocent.

I know you believe G-d and Jesus understand, but I don't know why you would be so certain of that.

one more or my entire day is going to be spent looking for arguments on news forums...

@notheophobe

i think the giant difference between anti abortion and pro choice people is that pro choice people believe that there are times places and circumstances where babies just should not be brought into the world. nobody wants to hand out abortions with a free carwash afterward. there are no pro abortion people. what is important is to have a choice. a choice to not have a baby if your raped by your step father. a choice to not have a baby when you have no job or insurance and the father is not around (we have enough homeless people crack heads prostitutes etc from broken/non existent homes without going out of our way to make more) a choice to not have a baby if your life is endangered by the pregnancy, a choice not to have a baby if it will be horribly handicapped and disfigured, a choice to not have a baby if you dont have the means to take care of it. I know 2 girls that have had abortions (one because she was raped, one when she was 17 and a baby would have just not been a good idea)and from what i've seen is its never a light decision. its not "oh i think im going to go get the abortion because i dont want to put on weight" its a traumatic life altering perception changing event, and if someone is willing to go through that THEN THERE IS A GOOD GOD DAMN REASON for it, and they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives. and the last thing these women need is the threat of eternal damnation on top of it.

/endrant

Oh. So VOTING pro-choice is a mortal sin, but the Church will take my donations anyway?

I believe we Catholics should expand this worthy edict so that it includes those who've

* had or performed abortions
* used contraceptives
* supported the death penalty
* fought or advocated for war and
* engaged in or associated with homosexual pedophiles

This way we can pare our ranks down to only the "true" believers. It'll kill the coffers, but then again there won't be many left in the pews care for.

Time for another Reformation.

All of this mumbo-jumbo just infuriates me.

As the sign in Dublin said, "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries."

First you build a myth and then erect an institution around it, write and rewrite rules, hire people to become the "holy men" and mess around in people's lives.

What Mae West said could clearly be applied to religion: Goodness had nothing to do with it.

You anti-Catholic people have nothing to be smug about.

Corruption, hypocrisy, obedience, blind faith etc. you find it in other Christian faiths as well. And many of you venerate your church and political leaders just as much as some Catholics venerate the Pope.

Burn baby burn! Keep up the 'burn for all eternity' rhetoric. Nothing pushes people from The Church faster. Nothing marginalizes religion faster than aggressive moralizing. Bring on the outraged religious believers rioting in the streets. Maybe that's what it will take to get people to stand up to those who want to impose their own narrow religious agenda on an increasing secular world. Go ahead, scream and yell. bring on your own demise.

Amen Mullett, those were my thoughts exactly when I read the article WWJD

Does this priest realize that a vote for McCain would have resulted in a vote for someone who killed in Vietnam? Does he not realize that? Is he that daft? How bout all them good men and women who have fought and continue to fight the wars that the US government sets in action (who kill in these wars), those good men and women who we are proud to say we are red blooded Americans who support them fully??? definitely, many of them who are in combat and kill another human being, HAVE to be denied an open door to Rev Jay's church and they all should wear a RED M letter stuck to their forehead so as to be seen and spotted a million miles away. But also, don't forget their parents and families and friends, they all can't be walking through the doors without THEIR red letter M on their forehead either, having supported US soldiers who kill. Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney who set up this last blast to war and all those who support this war have to have the doors closed to them, too. How about that good old Bush and Cheney and cohorts who signed us up for these wars, how about THEM? Give them their red letter M. Gotta include ALL the dirty and soiled people in this almighty righteousness....to be fair. And you have to include all the young women in your parish who've had an abortion (OF COURSE! DUH!) along with their parents and relatives and friends and counselors, the doctors, the receptionists, the nurses, the babysitters who watch the kids of these people, the architect of the buildings these people reside in, the contractors who built the buildings from the ground up, the car dealers who sold these despicable people the cars to travel in to get to the clinics, the car companies for having sold a car for them to buy, and oh, so many more people....not many will be left to attend services at Rev Jay's place.

How does Rev Jay go about in determining who is a non-deserving Obama voter? Voting privelages are supposed to private. How does he find out? Catholic guilt? All the red letter Obama voters just up and tell him they are guilty sinners who have committed a mortal sin by voting Obama? Talk about Catholic guilt in action, wow! There must be a way that Rev jay determines the guilty thereby making sure he doesn't defile his own delicate and all deserving hands. Does he THINK Mr. McCain never killed anyone in Vietnam? Bombs don't drop just to create pretty holes in the surface of the earth. Does he believe that a vote for McCain would have been a vote for white purity?
Really, personally, I have never had an abortion and never would have had one if put up against that choice and that's just me. Others have their reasoning and their own lives that they live with til they die.
The MAIN point is: who cares about his REASONING for condemning, but we should VERY MUCH CARE about his righteous ACT of publicly condemning others and his voicing of such an act. He's just another power hungry human carrying out judgment to attack other human beings.

@KBENOBI

"I believe we Catholics should expand this worthy edict so that it includes those who've

1) had or performed abortions
2) used contraceptives
3) supported the death penalty
4) fought or advocated for war and
5) engaged in or associated with homosexual pedophiles"

1) already does - automatic excommunication until repentance (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2322)

2) has always been a mortal sin (CCC 2370)

3) As I stated before, "The traditional teaching of the Church DOES NOT EXCLUDE, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, RECOURSE TO THE DEATH PENALTY, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor." (CCC 2267)

4) All war is not condemned by the Church, though there are "strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force... The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." (CCC 2309)

5) "Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered," and "contrary to the natural law." (CCC 2357) "Homosexual persons are called to chastity." (CCC 2359) Homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358)

"1) already does - automatic excommunication until repentance (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2322)"

Excommunication? LOL!

Catholics should welcome excommunication - it gets rid of the middlemen between the believer and salvation. ;)

5) "Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered," and "contrary to the natural law." (CCC 2357) "Homosexual persons are called to chastity." (CCC 2359) Homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358)

also known as the "we cant stop playing with little boys clause"

Right on Kris! Period. End of discussion. One more time just for emphasis:

"We are saved thru faith in God and by his Grace alone - no priest, pope, bishop, or anyone else in mankind can put any sort of condition on it. Period."

Forget the opinions! This is the core issue like I said in my previous post. This is about our beliefs, as Christians and our understandings of our faith, FIRST and FOREMOST. Opinions come second. When you state your faith in the same God and Christ I believe in, I expect to be on a similar page. The above post, I feel that this clergy should have known better to make the statement that he made. Not for his opinion, but implying that he has authority in between the relationship of any individual and God through Christ over the individual's actions. That's not in my Bible, and so I'm just not understanding where he's getting that. Voting issues are secondary issues, but the primary issue is with what this man is telling people which is not consistent (to my knowledge) with Basic Teachings of our Christian Faith.

For the record, I don't support abortion, and I believe life begins at conception. My vote was not based on abortion because I do not believe it is my place to take a political stance over the personal choices of individuals. I won't vote on it, but if I will get PERSONALLY (not politically) involved to do my best to form an actual supportive relationship (like my Christ did and therefore I desire to be representative of my Christ as a Christian although we are saved ONLY by the act of acceptance and submission to God through Christ -not by this here clergy). There are issues that I prioritize as a ground, community operation, such as abortion. There are other issues I prioritize that involves fighting for what is right and fair. I am not anti-Catholic, but I stated I am a non-Catholic Christian and therefore I am ignorant to Catholic Church practices. There are Catholics who understand The Faith as I do. I simply state that I do not understand where this particular clergy got the idea that he has the authority he states which is not consistent with the very faith I believe in.

How ridiculous and divisive! No one is pro-abortion. No woman wants to get pregnant to experience the joy of having a fetus sucked out of her uterus. What a lot of drivel! Obama is pro EDUCATION. Let's get the morning after pill available to all and this issue goes away. But they don't want that do they? Kind of forces them to relinquish control.
No priest nor preacher nor pastor can take away the salvation of our savior. Not yours to grant or deny. This is what you get when you put middlemen in the mix. It's gets all screwed up.

To clarify my previous comment...i really have no problem in what this holy man decreed. it affects NO ONE other than Catholics and only exists ONLY within the narrow confines of a religious ritual. My arguement with Catholics all along has been that they can do whatever they want to punish those who do not follow the abortion edicts of the Church as long as they do so WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE CHURCH and stay out of the secular law of the land.

That is exactly what this ruling does. I say fine.

The fact is that there are significant portions of the population across the faith spectrum who do not regard the fetus as a human with the same right to life as, for example, an Iraqi civilian.

We cannot allow this religiously motivated intrusion into the uterus. First they say "abortion is murder"...next they will say the "IUD is murder"...eventually perhaps "condoms are murder".

Sex is the agenda...not life.

enaughton27

You wrote, "Mr. Waters, a priest does not speak for a diocese. Consult the bishop. End of story."

A bishop may speak for a diocese but that does not necessarily mean that he speaks for God.

The clergy should think about "PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS" instead of trying to run other people's lives.

Considering that some of the clergy don't have a clue what the "Good News" is then they should at least administer the sacraments rather than denying them.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Life is from conception to a natural death according to our Holy Roman Catholic Church and no matter how hard a person or persons try to rationalize "choice" as a right; ending life is not your right.

God did indeed give us "free choice" but when you come to your end and you have not "worked, above all, with purity of intention, and with detachment from self, having always death before my eyes and the account which I must render of time lost, of talents wasted, of good omitted, of vain complacency in success so fatal to the work of God" we will pray for your mortal soul while you roast in hell.

Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?

I think this is the sort of priest Dostoevski was thinking of when the he wrote about the Grand Inquisitor in the "The Brother Karamozov."

This really concerns me as a catholic. This can of hypocritical talk form the church just makes me second guess the religion I’ve chosen. Why hypocritical you ask? Let’s take an example of a Church in the Heights of Houston, TX, which has a prominently gay catholic community in it. The church serves them communion and ALWAYS veers away from any anti-homosexual talk within the liturgy, initial confirmation for our children, and RCIA. Why do you think this is; because they get tons of support from the gay community in volunteering and especially donations?

So I assume if St. Mary's Catholic Church is turning down communion to those sinners that voted for Barrack (like me), the they can’t take their sinful donations as well. Right?...doubt it.

"Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?"

Because people stood by and watched Hitler spread his B.S. So it's important for everyone to point out the evils of a cult like the Holy See.

"Life is from conception to a natural death according to our Holy Roman Catholic Church and no matter how hard a person or persons try to rationalize "choice" as a right; ending life is not your right."

Are you sure it's not 'our' right to end life? We do it all the time in war. Many, many innocent lives.

And I know you allow yourself to rationalize this 'choice' because G-d et. al. understands your reasoning.

Even if it's an illegal and immoral war based on lies.

Therefore no outrage about this.

It must be nice to have a belief system that is so, um, 'flexible'.

I live in a small rural community in northern New Mexico and had been a Catholic all of my life until the priest at my church said the same thing about voting for John Kerry in the 2004 election. I quit going to church. Newman's church and any other church that attempts to dictate how their parishoners should vote should be stripped of their tax-exempt status for violating the separation of church and state. Membership is shrinking in the Catholic church and the Republican party. I think the American people are recognizing the hypocrisy of both.

typical Christian hypocrisy. Molesting young boys is a mortal sin if you want to start looking at sinners, go get a mirror "father"

Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?

Less upset more irritated at the idea that because you have some distorted world views they have to be shoved in my face like they actually matter. all that nonsense you just spouted means nothing outside of your tiny closed minded little social circle. I feel the same way about religious zealots as i do 2 guys having sex. I could care less what you do, just dont make me listen to it.

There may be Christians who can vote for a pro-choice candidate with a clear conscience. I am not one of them. If you call yourself a Christian, you are accountable to God for your vote (not to me, or to Rev. Newman, but to God). The problem is that too many of us no longer fear God.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

Likewise, since your priest or pastor is accountable to God (not to you), his job is to tell the truth as revealed in scripture, not to pretend that every decision you make is morally acceptable.

Well, let me suffice it to say that I have been a born-again Christian, raised in an Assemblies of God church, AND ONLY I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD!!!

Newmexmom, good for you to stick to a solid set of morals and great that you still believe, even if only solitarily now. A church roof above one's head does not a moral person make. I believe in what another poster said....there is no one between me and my G*d. There have been too many examples of trusted people screwing up and breaking trust, an inherently human condition, for me to believe that someone LIKE Rev Jay doesn't have his own skeletons in the closet, being human and all that.

As an ex-catholic, I am again reminded why I have no interest in having a person dictate morality to me.

Hey Jay,

A zygote has the intelligence of a fly. Is it immoral to kill a fly? Is it just as immoral to masturbate and let sperm die? Why don’t you conduct regular vigils for all the dead sperm and dead eggs in the world? Sperm and egg join! Miracle! No. Reproduction. There is little difference between humans and other higher organisms. All such animals are sentient beings. We only have more rights because we are smart enough to slaughter them.

Your life is dedicated to celebrating a Santa Claus, a myth. The idea of god is asinine. There is no wizard in the clouds that judges or does anything for that matter. Do Greek gods exist? How is yours any different? The good book gets it right when is says dust to dust. But it should stop there. We are nothing more than intelligent organisms that will die just like other organisms. And that is the end of it. There is no incarnate soul that drifts up to heaven.

You preach ignorance. You are a stop in the progress of this nation. Yes religion has benefits. It’s organized it preaches looking out for your fellow man. It brings people together. It helps forward society through cohesion. But when religion holds on to silly atavisms like the right to life, religion has a negative effect. The same absurdity lies in total denial of pleasure and in abstinence. Such backward practices are what drive so many of you men of the cloth to molest children. And you say that homosexuality is unnatural? Molesting children is unnatural.

I feel sad knowing that there must be so much conflict in your head. So much cognitive dissonance in knowing that you just repeat lies of the existence of a god and of the absurdity that a woman should not be able to control her own body. Truth, man! Haven’t you ever looked for the truth? Even mother Teresa started to get a glimpse of truth toward the end of her life. She knew how absurd the idea of a god really is. You can bury your head in the sand and ignore science, ignore math, ignore your own rejection of other religions but not your own, but such ignorance will not make a fairy tale true.

May the word of “god” lead you to see the light of his own nonexistence.

This priest is absolutely right and the pro-abortion crowd hates him for it. God bless him. The Church has always stated, and he is pointing this out, those who support evil with their votes join in that evil.

Yes, dear ones, there is a connection between who you vote for and what they vote for. Obama said he would sign the Freedom of Choice Act, well, that is a pro-abortion bill. You are supporting abortion if you voted for him. You joined that evil.

That's what Church is. That is where people go to learn about good and evil. Oh, you thought church was where people went to hear only gentle platitudes and blah, blah, blah. Not that there are consequences for the choices we make in life. Crazy priest. What was he thinking.

God gave us free will. This priest, God love him, is just pointing out that some people are simply choosing Hell.

@agentlemon:
"a.k.a. Can't Keep Our Hands Off Little Boys" clause... AMEN.

@jckapla:
Thanks for the moral citations. I feel more saved already. Be nice to see the Church follow it's own advice however.

Anyway, what about the Reformation, Your Quoteness? Anything in your Cannon reference library about that?

And, yeah....like Catholic priests have a lot to talk about, huh? I think you should go take a look in the mirror once again, as I think molesting children points a whole lotta fingers back at you!!! Hypocrites....

The Rev. Newman should review carefully the positions of each candidate before he declares which one supports a "mortal sin". The Reverend would be consistent if he were to also include the Death Penalty on that list, in which case neither candidate would have met that standard.

Every parishioner with their behind in a pew on sundays materially cooperates with intrinsic evil because they are supporting an organized criminal child rape cult. Their presence and donations validates and keeps RCC Inc in operation.

Child rape is not a sin according to RCC Inc because born children are "guilty" and little smears of cells are "innocent" - until those cells make contact with their mother's blood and vagina, which seems to be how original sin is transmitted, as they don't seem to think that fertilization transmits it (if so, then it would come from male sperm, and males are godlike and females are demonic).

The central myth of christianity begins with the rape of a young girl by a pedophile god. It's just that it's been prettied up with angels and bright light and lalalas and harp music. In addition, she had been sold into temple slavery by her parents, and young acolytes of *any* religion are there for sexual exploitation by their priesthoods. Those who would believe that they represent this god on earth feel the right and obligation to emulate him by raping as many children, *GIRLS* as well as boys, as possible.

The central metaphor of RCC Inc is their god as a shepherd and humanity as sheep. Anyone who knows the *reality* of animal husbandry is that shepherds do not love their sheep - they *own* them and buy and sell them for fun and profit. The true relationship of the shepherd to the sheep is fleece 'em, screw 'em, kill 'em, eat 'em. This is what RCC Inc does to the sheeple - fleece 'em of money, sexually exploit them, then destroy their lives and consume them and throw them away in the name of money and power. Yeah, real benevolent and holy.

I am a *female* clergy sex abuse survivor. No one cares about girls who are raped by priests, only boys. Not only is it not a sin to rape children, but girl children are specially selected by satan to seduce and defile the special male holiness of catholic priests (even baby girls). There is no sin because children are seen to automatically give consent, especially girls, who are tools of the devil in this scenario. Boys are not seen to be seducers of their priest rapists, and our misogynistic society can't conceive that boys ever give consent while automatically assuming that girls always do give consent to rape. I was five when a priest grabbed me at a CYO camp and had his hands all over me and inside my clothes, but you see, I tempted him with my feminine and childlike perfect and demonic beauty to be defiled by touching my young female body. This is what RCC Inc believes. This is why female survivors speak out in fewer numbers than male survivors - we know there is no point and that the public will sympathize with males while reviling females. However, the stats are out there that females are abused by priests in roughly equal numbers to males.

Catholics, suck on that a while. Consider what penance this priest would require of you for supporting Obama - perhaps your penance would be for you to give the priest sexual access to you or your children. I'm sure a few hail mary's aren't going to be enough to absolve you of your thought crime against the god of pedophiles. Besides, your vote cannot be rescinded and so you have placed yourself in a permanent near occasion of sin until you join the republican party and vote only for republicans in the next available election.

I hope Obama's Attorney General looks into the federal crimes committed by 2/3 of the American bishops (conspiracy, obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting, human trafficking, violations of the Mann Act, complicity, RICO, etc.) and prosecutes them (the pedophile priests are sick, but the bishops are sick sociopaths and even more criminal). I hope the IRS removes the 501c3 status from the whole of RCC Inc in the U.S. and that catholics learn that they don't need priests to make contact with the divine for them.

RCC Inc is worse than the Mafia. The sheeple must wake up and stop being slaves of these criminals. BTW, you can write the diocese where you were baptized and have your baptism rescinded. This is a great message second only to withholding money from the collection plate or just leaving altogether.

You know....the fact is....life is just NOT black and white....it's all shades of gray....and it's messy. No one would 'want' abortion. I learned this when I found out at the age of 35 that I was carrying a child who would be born with Down syndrome. Even as a born again Christian, I can honestly say that it challenged my own faith. However, what came out of it is that I realized that only I can make that decision for myself; I cannot make it for others.

All comments concerning abortion or other acts condemded by the church are based on biblical findings, as is the religion in general. The heads of that church, when making their statements are assuming then that we should believe the bible and all facts therein are truth and actually took place.

There is no proof one way or the other that any of the religions bases are indeed factual. They are all built on faith and belief. Because of this, it is not the right of any religion to force their way of life on another person, and therefore should not be telling a country how to govern based souly on religious beliefs.

I concider myself a christion, but do not feel I have the right to force another soul to follow what I think is right or wrong. I may teach what I believe, but it is every persons choice to follow or go their own way. A higher power will judge when the day of reconing comes.

Church and state should remain seperate.

YUMLICK23 AND MYVOXPOPULI,

Having a hard time staying “on topic” are we?

The topic is not allowing someone who “says” they are Catholic from receiving communion if they are in a state of sin, not all the worldly issues committed by men and women of the past and present.

If you are a Catholic then BE a Catholic. If you don’t want to be a Catholic then quit.

The off-target hammerhead other issues you bring up aren’t related. We were attacked on 9/11 and we all jumped on that wagon.

20-20 hindsight later showed we made some very big mistakes and just as with Viet Nam, when enough people say enough, it will end.

The churches and faiths of the world are made up of humans and we are weak, greedy and foolish, most of the time but, there is too much good being done by “them” to ignore the fact they have value.

Abraham, Muhammed, Moses, Jesus and other prophets have had their words abused, misinterpreted and misused by humans.

Pick your poison but when you join a club you should follow the rules.

I do truly believe that killing a baby is wrong and evil.

Every Christian who voted for any Democrat, is guilty of the sin that that democratic politician has signed onto. Your vote is your testimony that you support infanticide (abortion) and the "gay agenda" (Antichrist religion).

To the Methodist who boasted anyone may take communion with him: "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 11:26

If voting for Barack is evil because he is pro-abortion, then tell me this, is it okay to vote for someone who completed 22 bombing mission's in Vietnam as an Air Force pilot? Would have been more but the 23rd time got him captured. Murder is okay as long as is it for war, molestion is fine as long as it is the priest that touches you, lies are good as long as its the Catholic Church telling them, but voting for Obama will cost you money because you now need to pay the Church to go through the whole communion process to be forgiven again.
Priests are overpaid, hypocritical people who only spread their own word and spend every day wishing they were gods. I am Catholic, but I hope the religion takes a turn or else they might as well put their hands out and hope they can get some bailout money too, because they are going to need it with fakes like him.

notheophobe wrote: "...I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels."

Lets see...

1) You shall have no other gods before me.

Nope, not in American law anyway.

2) No false idols.

Nope. In fact, since all religions are allowed, all kinds of false idols are allowed in America and are protected by law.

3) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

On the contrary, its protected speech.

4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Hmmm, but Catholics keep the day after the Sabbath holy, against the commandment. You might want to check this out with the big guy. And there is no law making it holy.

5) Honor your father and your mother.

Well, no laws except that a parent has rights over the child, so I'll give you this one considing how pooly you are doing at this point.

6) You shall not murder.

Yea, a definite American law, but its also the law in China. Did the Chinese base their law on the bible?

7) You shall not commit adultery.

Well, in the old days, but not today.

8) You shall not steal.

Yup, but again, its the law in China too. Who thought the Chinese based their laws on the ten commandments?

9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Yes, this is protected through libel and slander laws though you would not know it considering how many time I heard self described christians bear false witness against their opponents in this election. When Palin said Obama pals around with terrorists, she only mentioned one very old terrorist. Who are the others?

10) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."

Well lets see, you can't covet your neighbors house in American law but you can covet his wife. If you coveted his manservant or maid servant you would both be thrown in jail for having slaves, which the bible allows but not American law. The ox, donkey and other possessions are protected through property law, so I'll give you 50% on this one.

So lets see, of the 10 commandments American law codifies less than half of them, and those commandments are also codified in Chinese law bringing to question that these laws came from the bible at all or, more likely, came from human nature. I'll leave that for you to determine. But the 10 commandments seem to have little to do with law, American law anyway.

Cheers, TIMMAW82

God did not create humans; humans created God. However, we are, at least in this nation, slowly but surely reaching the realization that we no longer really need our god, so we are beginning to phase out an obsolete idea. We are beginning to realize that the set of beliefs humans formed long ago and called Christianity make up a mythology--just like that of the Greek gods.

I am not being hateful, though some of you will think so. I do not think less of anyone who still feels like they need religion or a god. I readily admit that religion does serve some positive functions in our society. I simply think, as I said, that we are getting to a point as a society where we are **beginning** to recognize this as a mythology like any other.

I am glad. Look at how much suffering, anger, and intolerance has come into the world in the name of "God." I'm glad people are increasingly beginning to get the sense that it just isn't worth it.

I am not a member of any religion, my bible tells me that with christs death the word was taken away.No church on earth is from god.His church will only come with the destruction of this world and all its hipcrosities. This is what i am waiting for....I pray to god alone, no man can tell me what he says. The catholic priest was wrong.Every religion, whether you have been baptised or not requires you to be rebaptised. hmmmm I can only be baptised one time,otherwise i would be putting more pain on jesus on the cross.
god has protected me through many trials and i thank him everyday for his blessings. i dont need a priest of preacher to decypher the bible, because remember he gave us freewill and the intelligence to know. I am not an atheist because i believe in god and christ. Soon we will all know the truth.

First, I would like to respond to the person who wrote, "Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?"

I am an atheist and I am upset by this priest's position about those who voted for Obama. Although, atheism is very comfortable for me, I do not believe that that is true for most other people. I choose what is right for me and others choose what works for them. However, I find this priest's position to be very disturbing because he is condemning his parishioners without finding out more about how they came to their decision to vote for Obama. For many Catholics, abortion is not the only sin. I will provide a few examples of many. Is this priest as concerned about the genocide that is occurring in parts of Africa? I believe, as do others, that Obama will be more effective in ending the these atrocities. Is this priest concerned about the torture of prisoners under U.S. custody? There are many who believe that Obama will reclaim the United States' moral leadership. Is this priest concerned about those Americans who die because they can not afford health care? There are many who believe that Obama will do more to insure that all Americans will have health care. Deciding who to vote for for President is a complex decision. To reduce it to one issue is unfair to those of us who think hard about this very important decision. And I feel for the parishioners who now feel condemned for making a difficult choice.

For those who think that clergy sex abuse ended in 2002 with the scandal in Boston, please refer to http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ for daily news about abuse by catholic and other clergy. It has NOT ended. A bishop in MN recently shipped a priest to South America to avoid prosecution after that priest raped a *three-year-old* girl. Then the bishop started a whispering campaign that the girl's mother seduced the priest and pimped her child to him. It hasn't stopped, it will never stop as long as RCC Inc exists (and other oppressive and high-control misogynistic religions).

When someone rapes already-born children and ruins their lives (even driving them to suicide), they are not pro-life in any sense. Preserving blastocysts at the expense of the safety of living children is not pro-life. So-called pro-lifers have even said that given the choice of rescuing either a tray of frozen embryos from a fire or rescuing a six-year-old girl (assuming they can't rescue both and must choose one), they will choose the tray of embryos over the girl child every time.

Pro-blastocism is what was practiced in Romania (a communist country) under the Ceaucescus - women were forced to submit to monthly pregnancy tests and forced to bear at least four children by their government. I guess the pro-lifers want to live in a communistic theocracy. I guess this means that pro-lifers are communists...

They certainly don't resemble anyone who believes in democracy and freedom...

you know, i believe killing a baby is wrong as well.

that's one of the main reasons why i think we should not be so quick to go to war.

* * *

yes, there was indeed an attack on 9/11.
but it didn't come from iraq (still amazed that some people didn't know that. i know george w. told you it was, but he's one of them lying christians.)

A few of the posters here seem to be misguided on one thing. The Church has stated that Abortion is the greatest moral concern facing the Church among all of society's problems and evils due to the sheer enormity of that evil. The intentional killing of innocent children

Approximately 40 million unborn children have been killed in the United States since the "right" to kill an unborn child was somehow found in our constitution.

The enormity and gravity of this evil makes it of graver concern than the death penalty, poverty, or Iraq. It does not diminish the importance of these.

"Dear Plaza: Pakistan HAS a religion. It's called ISLAM, you moron!"

No kidding? That was exactly my point. More to the point, religion and the state in Pakistan are mixed well. So for anyone that wants to mix religion and state -Pakistan is their place, as is Saudi Arabia, Iran, any number of places... but not the USA.

A few people are also misguided on one other thing: assuming the church is right.

If you didn't notice, there are a whole lot of people who disagree with the church about abortion.

Catholic priest,
the Pope, the diocese are disgusting. White washed graves, looking all clean on the outside,but full of digusting things inside. How can you be a priest reprensenting a religion that covers up and hides child molesters. How can you be in a religion that supported hitler. How can you claim to represent God when you follow man made traditions rather than what the Bible really says.

I am not a Christian, but I do have great appreciation for the teachings of Jesus. I am saddened by this story and I feel that something important is lost when those in power make pronouncements such as this. Doesn't this priest have poor people, widows and orphans to care for? Aren't those Christian values?

Maybe I'm way off base and should stick to the Tao Te Ching, but don't you Christians see that something is not right about this sort of thing? My understanding is that Jesus taught a message of inclusive love not divisive bickering.

"Plaza0433, I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels.

By the way, your children and wife are safer in Pakistan than they are in the U.S., even with the problems they're currently going through in that country, because they stick to their "backward" religious codes better than we do here."

No, actually our legal system has its origins with the pre-Christian Greeks.

OK, so you think your children and wife are safer in Pakistan.. fine. Move there.

As for sticking to their "backward" religious codes there better than we do... LOL! Thanks for making my point for me.

This priest and any other religious leader certainly maintains the right of opinion; however, if pronouncing a church or religious mandate as this priest has seemingly done, then he, his church, and the religion that supports him should be subject to all US taxes that are currently avoided by separation of church and state. I will not pursue, at this time, all of the historical abuse, torture, death, enslavement, and displacement of mankind done, supported or sponsored by Catholic/Christian religions and their followers. Not Christ-like!

I will refrain from enumerating all the many mortal sins of the popes and priests of the Catholic church throughout its history. I only pity those who allow themselves and their children to be indoctrinated by this corrupt and self- aggrandizing criminal enterprise. I can remember my mother leading me by the hand to catechism class to have my brain drilled one-on-one by a priest when I was barely old enough to read. I thank fate that she left the church before he or his associates had the opportunity to drill other parts of my anatomy. It is a sad indictment of our educational system that many parents are forced to send their children to Catholic schools because the public schools are worse (educationally) and they can't afford the tuition of secular private schools.

God bless this priest. He stands up for the Gospel and the world hates him for it. All kinds of vile slander, hate, bigotry, revulsion, lies. Keep preaching Father!

I'm from S. Carolina and this actually made the evening news - this is the Catholic Church in retro-grade....the harder they push ultra-conservative agenda from the Vatican on down, the more marginalized the Catholic Church will become, especially in the USA.

The absolute worst thing the Church and the College of Cardinals has done in a generation is vote Benedict in as Pope - this man and his views will bring the Church to it's knees within the next decade.

His ultra-orthodox, authoriarian views are straight from the Middle Ages - and this is why he was appointed by the powers that be. No wonder Martin Luther left the Church....not that he didn't have his own issues.

Benedict obviously has plenty of clones at his disposal - you've recently heard this same histrionic cant from American Bishops concerning the upcoming Obama Presidency, and now you're hearing from a clerical drone right here in S. Carolina. However, a priest with these views is probably situated in exactly the right state and the right parish for this point of view. Let's remember that S. Carolina is about as red as a red state gets, although the gap was closed considerably this time around. Greenville in the north is McCain/Palin country, period.

Of course this (punitive) view of withholding the sacraments is not new - as we first heard it suggested when John Kerry was running, and supported the pro-choice position.

And you never know, this guy may just lose parishioners to the priest down the street that didn't need to make the nightly news - is Frater Jay Scott Newman bucking for a Vatican promotion, or just stroking the Bishop's robes??

I am a homosexual California voter who supported Gay marriages ban recently as requested by my Priest several times before elections. I guess that was my only hope to get married but I puffed away. Why did I voted to support the banning,simple, the Church insisted. Obedience is a must when it comes to God, and The Catholic Church is Jesus Church, and He is the Son of God and that is when I said I do Jesus for You do not ask for too much and I ask Him for lots and lots of things every day, so I voted againt my only chance NOT to die as an old Maid, Puff! So now I think I will be turning into a secular He Nun. Puff! Oh Dear, What a horrible though, is the last thing I wanted to be in this life a Secular HE Nun! And for those of you that might think that I not in some sort shock after I casted that spell, sorry I mean to say that vote against me getting marrierd Ever,yesterday I wrote a letter to California Governor Arnold S. asking him and the CA Legislation to find ways Tax the churches that operate in California, for they should contribute their fair share to help fund education. The State of California is cutting funding in education and if they have over 35 million in surpluses for advertisement, they can help offset the cost of education. I guess writting to the Governor was my first job after I casted that spell, I mean that vote on Nov 4th that has turned me hoplessly into a Secular He Nun// old maid at 47 I have no hope! Puff! I sorry guys but it was for Jesus, and he id GOD. I do not worry about how will he feel about paying taxes, remember that he sent St. Peter (the one and only who still holds Jesus Heaven Keys) Jesus sent peter to look for Tax money at sea, Peter got the coin from a fish, so money is not a problem when it comes to Jesus Christ.

Talk about playing God. This priest is out of line. He should remain neutral and accepting to all those who come to his church, not judgmental and political. How many child molesters, wife beaters, thieves and adulterers go to his church? How many work in his church? He has placed his own values above God's....that's a sin too. Typical, hypocritical "christian". I think he should be banned from his own church.

I'm so sick of the Catholic church butting in to secular matters. It's no wonder people are leaving in droves and they can't find enough priests. More and more of us are saying no to a medieval theocracy. It's not 1300 anymore you imbeciles.

This makes perfect sense to me. 54% of American Catholics voted for Obama, which means, if we credit Father Newman's theology as valid, that they have committed a mortal sin that without penance bars them from their church's primary sacrament. They probabaly also use birth control, another nail in their eternal coffin. Soon enough they might decide that if they are so damned by their church, perhaps they should look elsewhere for spiritual sustenance and community. Why not, isn't that what happened in the 2008 election to Republicans who woke up to the sad fact that their party had been commandeered by an angry, old, white regional group that no longer had anything in common with them.
One other thing: take a look at the Greenville, SC paper that covered this story. In their forum section, the hot topics currently are (1) Is there proof of God's existence (2) Trial (3) Praise of Ben Stein and Intelligent Design (4) X-Gays lead the way for truth (5) Dead Beat Dads (6) Sarah Palin for Vice President .... Maybe Newman does have the right venue for 16th century religious intolerance.

This is the one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I've ever heard any priest say...My question to this statement is "Does the Catholic church allow pedophile priest receive communion?"
And when did religion and politics become one or anyones business?

I was born and raised a Catholic and was an alter boy molested by my priest (my right hand of God spokesman)and today I refuse to ever enter an church of bigotry and hatred and molestations the rest of my life...

you know what i find halarious is that the people who compose the rightwing and are unrepentant one issue voters and and so passionate about being pro-life are the same people who whine and complain about tax dollars being spent on public assistance programs, who scoff at bums on the streets, who think that "Muslim" is a bad word, who openly and vocally support the invasion of a soverign nation and the murder of thousands of innocent people, and who are utterly oblivious to the poverty and strife that affects most of the world around us.

If these people cared about the lives of real living breathing people half as much as they seemed to care about the unborn ones, the world would be a better place.

In addition, it is very apparent to me that the GOP has no real intention of changing abortion laws, given that they have controlled the legislative branch and the executive branch for 6 of the last 8 years and have done nothing. They just use it as a battle cry to rally the base.

I was raised catholic and went K-12 to a catholic school and this kind of crap is exactly why I have fallen away from the religion. Its blind policy acceptance, and the inability to adapt to the times and embrace alternative methodologies to curb abortion, like sex-education and contraceptive distribution.

On that note, if you want to deal with this issue you have to be willing to make concessions. We saw this election season one of the most agressively pro life talking heads in Sarah Palin. No abortion. No exceptions. Not for rape. Not for incest. Not for the health of the mother. So by her definition it is feasible that you could be raped, forced into a pregnancy, and end up losing your life for that bastard spawn. Rediculous. You have to be willing to conceed some things if you want to make changes. Its the essence of democracy.

The Catholic Church's position on homosexuality is that gay people are "intrinsically disordered."

And yet, the Pope is apparently gay. How do Catholics square that circle?

If you think that voting for Barack is a mortal sin what abot the church's protection of pedophiles and the child abusers in the church we fail to mention that now don't we you spew word of division that is not good those who live in glass houses should not throw stones think about it

The bishops may be exercising a power they no longer have. Most people will probably ignore them. This is not good for those who wish to
keep their people under tight control. We shall see.

Question: How many Catholics who voted for Obama will obey the bishops edict?

Politics and religion. You've messed up a good portion of my early life Roman Church with your do's and dont's . I bought this poop a doo for a long time. Your lack of a good woman in your life father has left you a little skitsey. I go to communion almost daily, sometimes in your church, sometimes at other churches, but mostly at home. I'm afraid you miss the whole point of it. There are several good Christian dating services out there father....Good luck Tony 71

anyone who voted for obama and thinks they are catholic are not!!!
Catholics will take on all the sins of abortion murder of all the babies slaughtered by supporting those who support abortion...
values are values...
also...get the gays out of the catholic Church...

The bishops may be exercising a power they no longer have. Most people will probably ignore them. This is not good for those who wish to
keep their people under tight control. We shall see.

Question: How many Catholics who voted for Obama will obey the bishops edict?

MikeL4 wrote: "God bless this priest. He stands up for the Gospel and the world hates him for it. All kinds of vile slander, hate, bigotry, revulsion, lies. Keep preaching Father!"

And start paying your taxes!

fr the article:

>...Newman is denying communion not to those who have conducted or received an abortion, and not to those who enact laws that allow for abortion, but to those who cast a vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights...

This guy is a nutcase. His bishop needs to be notified, NOW, that this priest is denying Communion to whomever he wants, and he needs to be fired, given 30 minutes to clear out his desk, and be escorted from the building by security. Then a woman could be appointed in his place!

Dwightcollins wrote: "values are values...
also...get the gays out of the catholic Church..."

What about the pedophiles? Just who would Jesus have thrown out of His church? All sinners or just those you do not approve of?

Lets see voting for a pro-abortionist is wrong but voting for Bush who under his guidance we have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi children is right? Talk about hypocrisy, and people wonder why i left the catholic church.....

Observing the tone of these comments leads one to conclude that many of those offended by this aren't within the pale of Christendom to begin with. It's an internal matter between a priest and his congregation, so if you're neither Christian nor Catholic, feel free to stay out of it. If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?

The US bishops voted to "forcefully confront" President-Elect Obama about his pro-choice stance. Just what does this mean? Are they going to excommunicate him from a church he doesn't even belong to? Are they gonna beat him with their rosary beads? Are they gonna threaten him with rape? Are they gonna kidnap him, put him on trial for heresy (for being noncatholic and supporting reproductive choice), then burn him at the stake? Are they gonna threaten some kind of economic/diplomatic sanctions against the U.S., thereby extorting Barack? Are they gonna plot to blow up the White House with him in it? Are the bishops saying they are against the laws of the U.S.? Are they admitting to being would-be terrorists? Are they a threat to our democracy? Just *what* do they mean by "FORCE"?

BTW, for those who love Sarah Palin, she set things up so if you're raped in Alaska and go to the police or the hospital, you have to pay for the rape kit yourself - no tax support, no health insurance coverage - out of your own pocket. I don't know how much they cost, but medical tests run into the hundreds of dollars under the best of circumstances, so a rape kit must be comparable (especially because DNA tests are still expensive). So, if you're a poor Alaskan, and you've been raped (male or female), and you're trying to decide between food and a rape kit, then you're not gonna choose the rape kit and your rapist can never be prosecuted without that evidence. Rapists, Alaska is a get-out-of-jail-free state, and Sarah Palin has told you that rape is OK to do there (despite her hypocritical "tough on crime" talk). Let's see all the pedopriests flock there - an all you can eat buffet for them certainly...

GOP - the "party of God" pro-rape party...

"anyone who voted for obama and thinks they are catholic are not!!!
Catholics will take on all the sins of abortion murder of all the babies slaughtered by supporting those who support abortion...
values are values..."\

How about all the fetuses murdered in Iraq - along with the mothers carrying them, their brothers and sisters, parents,and grandparents. I guess they just don't count because they are Muslim.

I suppose the death penalty is also a taboo subject.

Better check some things out, the finger you point may just drip with blood.

I'm Catholic, but I just wanted to thank all of you who posted the messages that said the Church is full of hypocrites and pedophiles. You see, as a Catholic, I know that it is in our nature to want to sin, and that often we will do whatever we can to continue sinning. So when people get angry and post messages calling priests pedophiles and hypocrites in defense of their right to vote for someone who supports laws that result in the death of more than a million innocent American children each year, it only serves to confirm that what the Church teaches is true. Thanks everyone... May God bless you all!

The Obama presidency while it is historic and momentous is supremely demonic in its core believes.
So was Nebuchadrezzer
God will work through him to bring about closure

As for America Obama will destroy it

@KBENOBI said...

"Anyway, what about the Reformation, Your Quoteness? Anything in your Cannon reference library about that?"

I would wholeheartedly welcome a new reformation, though perhaps not in the same way as you. The church badly needs to be pruned before it can flourish again.

I know...we should have gone the Catholic way of just abstaining from voting, ALL of us! since apparently ALL the candidates are going to h*ll in a handbasket for what they've done, who they've known and associated with, for all that they are GOING to do and allow and say and declare from the moment they were born til they die.
Who do we elect? You all have any suggestions since you know who the perfect people are? We need to get these people known, get a double issue of People magazine for all to see the PERFECT people who live on this earth. Let's hear it, you all....who is the person who is perfect without sin among all us evil sinners through association and action, just WHO would you elect????

broknprism asked: "...If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?"

This priest is not paying taxes because he claims an exemption, section 501(c)(3) of the IRS tax code, which says he will not participate in politics and by doing that does not have to pay taxes. He just broke that agreement. I'm waiting for his taxes to be used to pay for some public school's that sorely need the money, so yes, it does harm me, by him violating the tax code and not paying taxes.

Tell the Father how you feel!
Go to http://www.stmarysgvl.org/contact#sendEmail
Select Father Jay Scott Newman and send your thoughts.

If you're Catholic and find this type of behavior uncomfortable, I advise you to do a little research on your Religion. In particular study up on why the Roman Catholics split from the Orthodox Catholics. Study it not from Catholic authors, but find references from historians rather than religious slated individuals. I did and I found that the Roman catholic split was to establish a Catholic Religious Emperor (Pope) and an empire equal to that of the Roman Emperor. Ever wonder why Catholic priest used to be married, but now can't. Ever wonder why there is no reference in the Bible of Purgatory or Limbo? The Roman Catholic Church was so corrupt that it opened the doors wide for Luther and the reformation. We have no disagreement on Jesus and his teachings, but all organized religion is flawed in someway or another. Unfortunately Roman Catholicism is a leader in the category of most flawed.

GaryC,

Abortion has nothing to do with "children." Get out of the spin zone.

Yep, and Bush is guilty of nothing. All those people killed and killing in his name. Absolutely resolved from it all. Obama hasn't even taken office yet and you all condemn him like you are on G*d's right hand. What about Bush? Can you tell me his hand is free of inflicted death to another human being using this logic for Obama? NO? Didn't think so.

Please, America, take away this religion's tax-exempt status. It is hideous that taxpayers have to subsidize this rich church which is constantly in our politics and becomes more and more threatening to politicians.

Life begins at conception? How about ectopic (tubal) pregnancies? It's not a simple issue! Enaughton27 is right, the Bishop has the final call in the church. God has the final call altogether and people who speak with absolute certainty for God, like Bin Laden, are always dangerous ...just like this priest!

Gee, I thought "God" chooses all the presidents of the U.S. via supernatural control of the voters to do his Divine Will.

Oh, silly me, he only selects republican presidents, so any democratic presidents must be selected by satan and "God" gets defeated in those elections.

What a wimpy and powerless god abramists worship - he can't even control the country that was ordained by him to have "Manifest Destiny" and "White Man's Burden". He can't even rig an election - and I thought he was capable of all kinds of "miracles".

Oh, but wait, Armageddon will come soon and the democratically elected president will be slain by jebus because he's really the antichrist (not some muslim leader somewhere). What a relief... (sarcasm here)

But, rats, it won't come until the last tree is cut down (according to former interior secretary and fundagelical evangamentalist GOP James Watt), so I guess we have to wait a little longer (all those new environmental policies will keep at least some trees alive well past the Obama administration). The abramic god hates trees and views nature as satan's territory, so any concern for the environment is really satan-worship.

BTW, at least one out of four fertilized human eggs never makes it through gestation, so I guess that means the abramic god is the biggest abortionist of all. Maybe the pro-lifers should go kill him (god) for being anti-life.

President Elect Obama is a wonderful person, and we are blessed to have him as our next President.

I can understand a Republican sour grapes over a Democratic win.

However, slandering a good man like Obama says more about you than about him; it says, "I am a fool."

These holier than thou Christians crack me up, have you ever heard of ANYONE that is PRO ABORTION? That is the most ridiculous term I have ever heard, does that mean that someone who believes in the second amendment (the right to bear arms) is PRO MURDER!?!?!?

Is he a politician or a priest.

I am not a Catholic, so all I can really say w.r.t his theology is that this priest has whatever rights the Catholic Church grants him to interpret scripture, interpret Church teachings, and generally jerk his flock around as he sees fit.

However, I am a U.S. citizen and taxpayer, and I do think we have a right to question where the line is crossed that should deny a "Church" tax exempt status.

We're not just talking about a priest speaking his mind from the pulpit, here. He's not even just "endorsing" a candidate. He's denying his parishioners Holy Communion if they don't vote for the candidate he supports. I, personally, think that way crosses the line into political action that should question the tax-exempt status of his church. Certainly he should be free to follow his beliefs and speak his mind. But we should be free to say "OK, that goes too far w.r.t. your tax exemption." No?

Wow, you're all too hardcore for me on this issue. This is the sort of thing that makes me glad not to be a Christian.

Good luck sorting this out.

Greenville, SC is also home to Bob Jones University - enough said. The prevailing regional mindset should be clear enough - Catholic or otherwise.

It sounds a bit like blackmail to me. Vote the way the Catholic Church wishes, or else....

Yuck.

I thank the Creator that I was not raised Catholic, or evangelistic. Handing over my thought processes to these busy body holier than thou self rightous people would be like living in an fearful hell. Since when do these people hold the keys to hell anyway? Who are they to judge? I believe in spiritual principles, not religious dogma due to situations like this one.

madwoman9 wrote:

For those who think that clergy sex abuse ended in 2002 with the scandal in Boston, please refer to http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ for daily news about abuse by catholic and other clergy. It has NOT ended. A bishop in MN recently shipped a priest to South America to avoid prosecution after that priest raped a *three-year-old* girl. Then the bishop started a whispering campaign that the girl's mother seduced the priest and pimped her child to him. It hasn't stopped, it will never stop as long as RCC Inc exists (and other oppressive and high-control misogynistic religions).

Yes,it has NOT ended. And only God knows how far back into history the evil extends.

If people only knew half the truth! And you hit the nail on the head... misogynistic religions.

As a devout young Catholic, alter boy, etc, etc, I helped when our CYO group did a summer project helping demolish a 100 years old nunnery to make way for a new one. This was nearly 45 years ago.

We discovered the skeleton of a baby in a wall. We tried to find the priest, but he was nowhere to be found, so the adult in charge called the sheriff. After about an hour or so, the priest showed up, the sheriff was there, it was a seriously big deal.

Work stopped for the day, and the priest called all of us together and read us the riot act about calling the sheriff and to NEVER SAY ANYTHING to anyone. This macabre event never made the local news either, the fix was in!!!

I can only imagine what the priest told the adult that reported this. Or the sheriff. Probably threatened excommunication if they said anything.

Four more baby skeletons were eventually found in the walls on that site. It was sureal when the priest was summoned to take the bones away. Nothing ever was made public about this as far as I know, it was a small, very Catholic community.

What had happened in that building, when it had happened, how it had happened -I will never know, but now I have a good guess.

The first seed of doubt was planted, although it would take a much more direct experience of the depth of clerical Catholic evil a few years later to finally punch through the trance I was in.

People think the modern church is different from the one that persecuted Galliao, different from the one that staged the Spanish Inqusition.

It is not.

It is only more subtile and sophisticated.

It is structurally corrupt because it is a dictatorship of the first kind, and it is immune from any call for accountability or justice from the mislead lay community.

These clerics, like the Taliban, have one overarching goal: To preserve their power.

All this did not destroy my faith in whatever is behind this existence, it did destroy my misplaced faith in the completely corrupt Catholic Church.

We were all given the ability to choose. Anything or anyone that inserts themselves by means of threats between a persons reasoned and well considered individual choice... and that persons God, -is inserting the first building block of pure evil.

There is a difference between discussion, enquiry, teaching... and dictation.

Wow.. I am just amazed. Reading all of this is what has seriously drove me away from church. For this priest to not give communion to people who voted for obama but will give communion to those who have committed abortion, raped, molested, abused, and what not is just beyond my comprehension. It amazes me that people mix up the fact that Obama isnt about "killing babies", he is about you and I and everyone in the U.S. to have the "right" to chose what they want to do, and I don't think im the only one who agrees that freedom of choice isn't a bad thing. That is what America is about.. freedom.. so if we have to tell some poor 14 yr old girl, that she has to give birth to a baby made by rape and just live with it then our country would be seriously screwed up. I have been raped twice but luckily didnt get pregnant by it.. I know if I had the choice no matter how awful I felt about it, I would have had an abortion... rape is enough damage.. taking away one's choice on how to live their life would just be against all we believe in humanity I feel.

The priest has opened the door to some bad memories for many people. Mine is more humorous than bad. When I was 14-16 years old, a large group of us from a local high school frequented a brothel in Joliet, Illinois. Interested in demographics even then, I asked one of the attractive women in her 20's who it was that frequented the brothel the most frequently. She laughed and responded that it was kids like me and priests!!!! Yep, mystical men of God they are!

As long as this guy is consistant, what's the problem? So if you voted for Bush in 2000 or 2004 obviously you support torture and lying to create war. No communion for you!

The Catholic church is one of the most woman-hating organizations on the face of this planet. Their teachings about birth control and abortion have directly resulted in the deaths of more women than we will ever know. Women are dying today because of Catholic teachings, right now, while you read this. Pro-life my eye; they don't care as long as it's women dying.

The only thing they will not forgive is a woman having an abortion - even to save her own life, even to maintain her own current family. You can be a serial killer, murder a dozen people on a spree, and be forgiven by these hypocrits. You can rape babies, gang rape teenagers, sodomize little boys, and you will be saved. But women must GIVE life against their will or burn in hell forever? (Please, you anti-abortionists, learn just a little biology. A fetus is alive because its MOTHER is, they are not individuals.)

This is not about the sanctity of life. Obviously they don't care the tiniest bit about denying over half the already born human beings in the world the right to life. This is about male domination over women's bodies, and in the case of the church, their souls.

Talk about evil.

Yes Democracy is an aethetic of Christianity.
And Christianity should be thanked for that
they said Christ taughrt Tolerance
But he himself Said _ i came to bring a sword

"If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?"
The harm starts when the church starts to politically manipulate in ways that could affect all of us, especially when we "kafirs" reject what that church says.

The deal is each citizen votes their choice, after informing themselves about all sides of the issue.

When the church attempts to subvert that and threatens their followers to vote the church's choice no matter what the individuals choice may be, that becomes a real big problem.

Birth control is the answer to make abortion rare. This respects all people's beliefs and separation of church and state.

Most people do not make the world black and white like this priest. Life is complex. A starving child in New Orleans has more value than a 7-90 day old human embryo. One exists and is it's own person and is suffering. It isn't in the womb of another human being and it is recognized with rights. The other has the "potential" to be an individual child, but it has the thinking process of a tadpole. Yes, you may say all are alive, but they are not the same. These are ethical choices and the ethical understanding and decision tree is different for each person in our country. These catholic priests turn this into a nasty my way or the highway for all situations once an egg is fertilized. Such thinking isn't in the domain of science or ethics, it is entirely based on policies of a church and it's doctrine. It is them and not the Bible that says a soul jumps into a fertilized egg. It isn't based on the Christian bible. It is entirely an interpretation by these medievel men of Rome.

This priest needs to go back to whatever planet he's from.

@mhadawy

Democracy is not an "aethetic" of Christianity. Centuries before Jesus was born there was a form of Democracy in Athens, without the any help from Christianity.

The idea that Democracy can exist with Christianity is offensive.

The Catholic Church along side the Mormons have to be the most disgusting Religions on the face of the planet. In the Catholic Church you can Murder someone everyday and as long as you confess you are "forgiven", these Pedophile Bas--r--s went for hundreds of years with there Pedophilia and not one word was said, and now they want to send someone to hell for someone who believes in rights for others.

Yet this same priest seems to have no problem with supporting candidates that want to continue endless warfare. Bomb and kill innocent men, women and children for the sake of oil under the pretense of lies. Where is the morality, tolerance, love in organized religion? I don't see it.

OH, all you non-catholics and atheists, don't think you're OFF the hook with religious extremists, in this case, catholics. You are the most evil and vile to them because you are not like them at all. Just because you aren't of their religion doesn't mean you aren't part of the overall problem for them. If some of them had their way, you would have the mark of the devil prominently displayed on you at all times.

Dang! And I thought it wuz jest them dirt-eatin', snake-handlin', fundamentalist evangelical we-can't-wait-for-Armageddon clowns who went in for this BS. Nope... I guess it's the WHOLE South...

orionexpress :
The Catholic Church along side the Mormons have to be the most disgusting Religions on the face of the planet. In the Catholic Church you can Murder someone everyday and as long as you confess you are "forgiven"

-- Wow. I'm a church-going Catholic. I must have been sick the day we were told we could do this.

See, Mr. Arroyo? This is what happens when you write half-baked commentaries on the church. You invite the crazies.

Does this priest really think that Jesus would agree with his stance?

"someone needs i lesson in Christianity- christianity was around long before Athens
and Democracy"

So much for "no child left behind."

Does the year 508 BC mean anything to you??

(hint-"BC" stands for Before Christ)

For a priest to require that parishioners who voted for Obama do penance before receiving communion is between him and those people foolish enough to believe the hocus pocus that the Catholic church pushes. That you can somehow "buy" your way out of sin, especially when the sin as been created by church dogma, has always struck me as more a means of control than any interpretation of God's word.

Of more concern are the efforts by the Catholic bishops to put pressure on our President elect. By all means continue to poison your own well but don't try to poison mine!

WELL......THE PRIEST SHOULD GO AND SLEEP.IF HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE....IS A GAY MARRIAGE BETTER THAN ABORTION?IN THE BIBLE GOD PERISHED A NATION BECAUSE OF THE ART OF HOMOSEXUALITY AND LESBIANISM...DEAR PRIEST I BELIEVE THERE ARE MORE ISSUES YOU NEED TO ADDRESS RATHER THAN YOU SOUNDING OR ACTING LIKE AN ANTI-CHRIST.LET OBAMA BE!!!!!!

Hey People no problem. Since this priest has now put voting into an issue of salvation in his church he has put his church into another catagory than one that is untaxable. His church can now be taxed as it has firmly went into politics. Let that happen and see how quick communion is restored to everyone.
On another note this is exactly why there was a sepration from the catholic church centuries ago. Some one decided that God could and did speak to all men not just the priest and that everyman could read the Bible and form his own views and relationship with God. Lets just put forth an effort to see that this priest's church loses its tax exeption.

I have great respect for those Catholics who follow Christ's teachings. As an agnostic, I don't understand (and do fear) the logic that any comment or action made in the name of religion can supersede the consensus of law. So, if you live in our country and accept that the majority rule (which the last time I checked this is the case) and our government supports and participates in capital punishment then should you not also refrain from communion??

It baffles me when people (especially priests) think they qualify to receive communion when they do rituals and wash their own sins away. What is the blood of Jesus is for? Folks, believe in Jesus and your sins shall be washed away. Everyone can receive the body and the blood of Jesus (communion), that’s what washes away our sins NOT your own works.

The priest is misleading his followers.

Respectfully, was it not a sin for all those priests, bishops and cardinals who covered up the sins of the pedophile priests? Many children were permanently scarred by these hypocrites.

I find it startling that the very men who can protect their own even against prosecution by law would wag their self righteous finger at the church. Church is made of the people in it. Church is not simply the clerics. Shame on you! Clean up your own rectory before you judge the motives of a person's vote.

Church and State exists for this very reason.

Catholic church....Taliban.
Seems to me all them gods are just about the same.

I am Catholic, female, 49 years old. Tell this priest he's nuts. God Bless Obama. He has no right to judge anyone. Does he deney communion to pedophile priests?

So...who cares about what some Catholic Priest says? They're just a bunch of p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e-s anyway.

A Catholic priest in South Carolina has decided that the democratic act of casting a vote is, in some cases, a mortal sin. Therefore, he has decided that parishioners who voted for Barack Obama are not entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ through communion until they've done penance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does this priest consider the Catholic Church's handling of the sex scandal including the placement of Cardinal Law in the Vatican as opposed to behind bars a mortal sin as well?

So did this same priest tell the people that voted for McCain that they couldn't receive communion because they voted for someone who advocates WAR??

Guess starting unnecessary wars where innocent people get killed (Iraq) and then getting upset when they try to defend themselves is ok!

The good priest is not saying that "thinking is a sin" as the author suggests. A vote is not just a thought, it is an action. It is an action meant to cause an effect. In this case voting for Obama means a vote to cause Obama's position on abortion to take effect throughout our country.

All the Priest has done is remind his parish what the rules of the Catholic church are. In our church there are different level of sins and prior to the recpetion of communion those who voted for an openly pro-abortion presidential candidate need to confess this sin.

Those who are Catholic understand this and have no problem with it. We may not understand it but that is what the preist is trying to do, explain how to live as a good Catholic. If you do not want to live this way....don't. It is about time someone in the Catholic Church has the actions match their words.

Now the ignorant say the priest is denying communion. Again, he isn't denying communion, he is reminding everyone what the requirements are. You miss mass, get a divorce, steal, adulter...etc. Same rules apply.

Everyone else, stop you anti catholic agenda, its tired and played out and has nothing to do with this story.

Catholics are leaving the church in droves and this one reason why. Does anyone else remember when it was a 'sin' in the eyes of the Church to use birth control? That is when my mother left the church and kept the kids home from reading our bible on Sundays in the living room.

I agree with all who say that the priest has crossed the line into politics. Let's raise revenue by taxing the BILLIONS of dollars of Real Estate the Catholic Church owns if they are going to use it for politics.

That alone will help my local school district pay a few bills - and teach evolution and civics with the church's money.

The WaPo can turn anything into a story, so long as it allows for an anti-religion field day. A single priest no more speaks for the Church than a single gas station clerk speaks for Exxon.

Is it a mortal sin to vote for someone who is against universal health care? It should be.

This priest needs to be sent back to the middle ages where he can live out his teachings. No wonder Catholics are abandoning the church in droves. Since he has appointed himself as God's judge, he is not any kind of example of Christ's teachings. Instead he appears to be a good example of the Anti-Christ.

If this priest’s superiors (all the way up to the Pope) support his political views, then the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church should be brought into serious question.

Is "outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law," a place where pedophiles can't reach children? Why can't the Catholic Church stay out of politics and work to change its culture of sexual abuse and astonishing hypocrisy? If anything will make a person into a non-believer, this will.

I am suprised how many commentors, and even the author that are ignorant of the catholic faith. Agree or disagree with the priest, fine, but there are so many with no idea what he is talking about.

Boy, am I so very glad that I don't belong to ANY religious organization.

My god doesn't have all these problems, it never wrote down any commandments, nor did it ever communicate with any living human.

It most certainly did not morph itself to be the father, the son, and the holy ghost all at the same time, nor did it ever have sex with a human female named Maria.

Do youselves a favor, abandon religion and live a decent, ethical existance with respect for all life and the environment. You'll be a much happier person.

I guess that all of those people who feel a Catholic should never be in public office because they will be influenced by the Church were right. If I were an American Catholic I would be outraged and demand that the church keep its place and not try to influence voters. This has set back Catholic candidates substantially.

The Catholic church is made up of men and women who are human, and by nature, flawed. This is such a human. The problem is of course, that he has 'power'- real or imagined- over a number of citizens of the United States of America. I propose that unless his Bishop or the Vatican censures these comments, that the Catholic church in the US lose their tax-exempt status, and the revenue from their substantial holdings be used to pay off...oh, I don't know. The national debt? AND the bailout? AND a tax rebate....

Radical Islam/Radical Catholicism- is either one more damaging to the attempt at rational, civil discourse?

when you read about idiots like this, it makes it all the more important that we have separation of church and state. These people will always trade peace and harmony for divisive ideology.

Can anyone tell me where I can get involved in efforts to remove the tax exempt status of the Catholic Church? Or who can be contacted about this? Catholic priests all over this country have either openly or covertly told people how to vote in the last several presidential elections. I am all for their freedom of speech...they should be able to say whatever they want...but it is a clear violation of their tax exempt status and they should forfit their right to tax exemption if they are going to tell the faithful how to vote.

Do the same rules apply when voting for a pro-death penalty politician? I believe the Catholic Church does not differentiate. Then I would guess all who voted for Bush in 04 and 2000 all had to confess their sins.
Again, if you are a Catholic and using the birth control pill..... or anything else other then the rythm method.

By the way, Bishops and Cardinals have also spoken out in the past this way. He is not a rogue priest.

So where were these issues when Clinton was president? This guy is a racist and he is reacting with the hate by attacking Obama anyway he can.

I agree with the priest. Absolutely and wholeheartedly, by the way. It's about time.

Its been brought up a couple times in this list, but it can't be said enough. This is an institution that did nothing to protect children from molestation by pedophiles, even protecting the pedophiles at times. I would imagine a more mortal sin is to sit in judgment with bloodstained hands.

So...who cares about what some Catholic Priest says? They're just a bunch of p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e-s anyway.

Catholics and Mormons are not religions, they're simply off shoots of the "religion" Chrisianity and glorified "cults" at that: take away their Non Profit Tax Status as soon as they step into the mundane world of mans Law.

The SC latent pedophilic priest should count his lucky stars and be glad that he's not in California because he'd be prosecuted by the Attorney General for violating the Unruh Civil Rights act for religious discrimination against a member of the public.

I know the hypocrisy of the Catholic clergy first hand as a product of their school system.
I wonder if Reverend Newman has done his penance for his affiliation with an institution that systematically molests children....????

The Founding Fathers had sufficient experience with the Church of England to know they didn't want clergy running their government. And so, separation of church and state became a tenet of the U.S. Constitution. Churches get a deal. They are tax exempt. In return for that, they agree not to meddle in politics. Government agrees not to meddle in church affairs. Those who run churches are free to say anything and do anything short of violation of secular laws. They can even be foolish. What they cannot do is meddle in citizens' civil rights. A foundational civil right is the right to vote as your intellect and conscience dictates. Clergy who choose to interfere can pound sand. The abortion issue revolves around a question that cannot be answered because God refuses to say: When does God put the soul into an embryo? This presupposes there is a God, that there exists a soul, and that the soul goes in at some particular time.

Oh no, no, no... We have more important matters to discuss like our economy. Let's not get dragged down by a religious institution interfering with our secular politics. This is NOT the time for religious issues. I could just as easily say that a vote for a republican who uses our military to kill innocent civilians and children is just as damning.. etc.

Why is it so hard for non Catholics and non practicing Catholics to understand the deep faith of members in good standing within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church delivers more internationl food and aid than any other organization in the world. Do you hear about that in the news? The Catholic Church Catholic Relief Services has been involved in HIV and AIDS interventions for more than 20 years—almost since the beginning of the pandemic. Do you hear that in the news? No, you hear of the Bad seed priests who will get thier just punishment from God. God is our Church. We believe in the Word of God. We not only believe but the closer we get to God the better we understand his Word. We believe and in our hearts know that taking the life of unborn human beings is wrong. We believe there is no justification for the taking of any life. This is what our Church teaches. The best part of our Church is, if we don't believe in its teachings we are free to pursue another faith. It is the duty of Church leaders to remind us of the politicians who will pursue a course that is in direct conflict with the teachings of our faith. After being reminded of the teachings of our Church, if we still continue to support these politicians, then we are no longer in good standing with our Church. What is so hard to understand. Practice your own faith. You will hear no critsism from us.

before any catholic priest points a finger, they need to clean up their own yard first.

As if!

If little boys could get pregnant, abortion would not be a sin.

There are some "religious" types such as Raymond Ruddy who have made a bundle of cash supporting Bush policies via no bid contacts. I'm sure they would be very grateful to any man of the cloth who can bully his flock into voting for Republicans. This is no doubt about money and power.

Thank God for this priest's comment. All Christians must forget the divisions that keep them apart and band together to protect the lives of the unborn. The "pro-murder of the unborn" folks will never be won over through politics, I'm afraid. They're not all bad people, they're just blinded by the culture of the day. They can only be made "unblind" to the truth of what abortion actually is through some other medium, like art or education. How many abortions were not committed by mons-to-be who got to see 3D sonagrams (please forgive my spelling if incorrect)? We as Christians of ALL denominations must band together to educate. Bravo to the priest, in the Name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

The Catholic church accepts Pedophiles, guess it's ok to be a pervert. But they can't accept black people or the right of a woman to chose what goes on in her own body. Catholic Priests should stay in their tax-free churches & concentrate on saving their own souls and let the normal people alone

A priest can say whatever he or she wishes. But if they tell parishioners how to vote, then the church which houses the pulpit from which they speak should not have a tax exempt status.

For the record, I think it was a far greater evil to start a war in Iraq, then it is to take a pro choice stand. I think it is far greater evil to intentionally and deliberately enact policies that destroy the earth that God gave us than it is to take a pro choice stand. It is a far greater evil to support corporations that are slowly killing millions of people with toxic chemicals than it is to take a pro choice stand. All of these examples constitute material cooperation with evil.

Actually, the more I think about it, we would be a far better society if we took the tax exempt status away from ALL churches. Many members of these churches don't seem to understand the concept of church and state, and don't seem to care that they don't understand the concept.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. First of all, Obama is not pro-abortion, he's pro-choice. He, like millions of others who advocate pro-choice, do not advocate abortions (as pro-abortion implies). He supports a woman's right to chose the best course of action for her & her family, while working to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Reducing unwanted pregnancies is to cure the issue. Whether or not to have an abortion, post-pregnancy, is to treat the symptoms.

The Catholic church has lost a lot of supporters over the years with their 14th century beliefs. When I was in high school (an all male catholic high school), I was turned off by the unrealistic teachings. Instead of teaching teens about the realities of their sexuality and encouraging them to protect themselves, they taught that the use of contraception was a sin. In fact, having pre-marital sex was a sin. Not only is it unrealistic to believe teens, in general, will abstain from having sex, it's irresponsible not to arm them with knowledge of birth control which will prevent unwanted pregnancies and the spread of disease! I have 2 sons now, and they will learn about sex, health, contraception, etc. at an early age. It's in their best interest.

On another not, there are so many issues and challenges facing us as a nation. It's very short sighted of the church to beleive that people's presidential vote should boil down to only one issue. People are being evicted from their homes. Entire towns are going bankrupt. Young men and women and being sent to die in two separate wars. And we're ONLY supposed to care aobut candidate's positions on abortion rights? Please! And why is the Church getting involved in politics in this way? Trying to scare people into voting the Church's agenda? It's not only dispicable, it's illegal.

George Bush is against abortion, and he's been the President of the United States of America for 8 years. Clearly voting for a President who's against abortion doesn't change the issue. In fact, the last 3 Republican presidents have been against abortion, yet it remains legal. We should not waste our votes on ideals which are rarely, if ever, addressed by the representatives we put in office. Contrast that with war. Between the two Bush president's we've had recently, we've fought 3 wars (and are still fighting 2 of them). Thousands of people are needlessly killed in war. Presidents frequently call upon citizens to fight in wars and rarely do anything to change abortion rights in our country.

Those who voted for McCain are sinners who condemn mass murder.

You have got to be kidding me. A prejudice bigot hiding behind the bible, and his robes. I am not a chatholic but I believe in the bottom line teachings of the Christian god. Love, peace and tolerence is what makes it easier for me to just shake my head and say. "Thank you god, that this man has no influence over me or my children.

I'm not agreeing with the priest, I'm not even christian, but he didn't tell people how to vote, he is just telling them what to do to get square with the Lord if they voted for Obama.

Patfan... Here is the problem with your church ... and you as well.... You stated that you believe there is no justification for the taking of any life yet you are willing to support war mongers... It's interesting how you, and others who believe as you do, so easily overlook that fact.

God help us all.
Here we are, with a historical Black President at the beginning of a difficult financial and international time, already reaching out to John McCain to help us all live together and the Bishop who would be God, is sending us to Hell just like the Pope sent Galileo to Hell for saying that the planets did not revolve around the earth. Soon the Church will be selling Indulgences to get back all the Catholics who will leave the Church. Let he among us who has no sin, abused Altar Boy, illegitimate child, secret retirement fund or racial motivations, cast the second stone. God lives in my heart. Let Him judge me and my actions. Not some deified mortal, driving around in his expensive German automoblile, clutching his Breviary and vial of Holy Water thinking that he is first on line to the Gates of Heaven.

ldthornton wrote:
"I'm not agreeing with the priest, I'm not even christian, but he didn't tell people how to vote, he is just telling them what to do to get square with the Lord if they voted for Obama."

The election is over, but the priest is essentially telling people how to vote going forward. By saying, "Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil...", Rev. Newmann is essentially telling his congregation that they should always vote for the candidate that is against abortion. Period.

So, he's telling them how to vote in the future by telling them not to vote for a pro-choice candidate.

If men got pregnant, no family would have more than one child. And abortion would be a sacrament.

cfjohn99... You say that i'm supporting war mongers. I say I'm suporting not only the liberation of an opressed people but I'm supporting the defense of our own nation against attacks like 9/11 that people like you convieniently forget. If saving the life of an innocent person means taking the life of someone with evil intentions, I have no problem justifing that.

I encourage anyone that has a problem with what this priest and the Catholic Church are doing to go to website IRS Complaint Process For Tax Exempt Organizations:

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=178241,00.html

Unfortunately, this S.C. yokel is not an isolated priest meddling in wordly affairs. From another blog named "Bishops warn Obama":

BALTIMORE, Nov. 11 -- The nation's Catholic bishops Tuesday approved a statement declaring that if the Democratic-controlled Congress and the incoming Obama administration enact proposed abortion rights legislation, they would see it as an attack on the church.

I am sick and tired of these ultra-conservative bible-thumpers, Catholic or otherwise, to shove their so-called morality down my throat. You are against abortion? Don't get one! Let others make the choice for themselves.

The audacity of the Catholic (and other) church(es)to basically threaten American political candidates and intimidate voters is clearly unconstitutional and totally un-American.

Those who agree with these tactics should hang their heads in shame.

The catholic church has lost the little morale authority it has since the execution of Galileo. Now half of it's priest are pedophile. How dare them tell people what to do?

I think this is a violation of the Voting Rights Act. It is a federal offence to interfere with a person's right to vote. I'm not Catholic, but I know many who take their faith very seriously. A threat like this from the church could very well deter parishioners from voting freely in the future.

This priest is more like Jim Jones than he is like Jesus. He doesn't want a parish, he wants a cult. The members of that church should get him out of there before he starts making the Kool-aid and telling them to drink or risk mortal sin.

I think that Catholic voters, and all other voters, too, should ask Catholic candidates for office whether they will represent the people who elect or the Roman Catholic Church as articulated by its priests, popes, et alii.

The message of the Catholic Church to it's faithful followers and it's faithful followers ONLY. Is that supporting any politician who supports or allows(CHOICE)the taking of unborm human life is in direct conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Being a Catholic and supporting these candidates puts these CATHOLIC individuals in a state of sin that requires reconciliation with God and the Church. Only Catholics in good standing are allowed to recieve the Body and Blood of Christ.

How does a Catholic Priest making a simple statement about a moral issue to his congregation have anything to do with the sex abuse scandal? It is a Catholic teaching that abortion is a sin, and this priest simply pointed out that voting for someone who openly supports this sin is a sin in itself. It is not a political issue in this case it is a moral issue. The Catholic Church has been a profound force for good in this world, but liberals are so blinded by hate and their support for continuing the holocaust of the unborn that they can't see the good that the Church does. Sure there have been mistakes made by members of the Church, but it doesn't mean that it's teachings are wrong. The Church provides a moral compass in a world that has willingly abandoned morality. It has become politically fashionable to bash the "Christian Right" for being intollerant, but it is the left in this country that is far more guilty of intollerance. Just read the other responses in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about.

This is the stuff which gives the Christian right and the Republicans a bad name. But then again, what do you expect from the church whose headquarters in the home of Mussolini. Catholicism. Fascism. Same thing. Christians, beware what is being done in your name. I guess for the Catholic church, nothing much has really changed since the Crusades. It's just dressed in prettier language.

The state of the Economy has apparently not hit his wealthy parish.

The 2nd and 3rd passing of the collection basket will only collect lint for all those altar boy lawsuits.

Guess he'll have to fix those raffles and Bingo nights---maybe even charge extra for the Communion wine and Last Rites. He'll certainly not be seeing any money for new Baptismal Certificates.

Tax the churches.
Tax the businesses owned by churches.

patrick127 wrote:

All the Priest has done is remind his parish what the rules of the Catholic church are.
***

It would be nice if he understood them:

"No matter the intention of the voter, Newman said a vote for Obama is "material cooperation" with his goal of extending the use of lethal violence against unborn children.

Asked if he would actively deny the sacraments to Obama voters, Newman said he won't because the church teaches that no one is denied communion unless it would cause "grave scandal," such as in the case of a notorious public sinner."

Archbishop Chaput makes distinctions between formal and material support for abortion, and within material support distinguishes the degree of support with less culpability for the janitor than the nurse or doctor. It's not all or nothing.

Newman mistakes Obama's position. It is not "goal of extending the use of lethal violence against unborn children", it is reducing it within the constitutional means allowed to the government - while seeing that the constitution is not damaged by the campaign against abortion.

Intent is a vital aspect of sin; but Newman here seems to entirely neglect the intent behind Obama's stance and parishoner's votes.

In short, he illustrates the fallibility of the humans who serve the church.

(My mother had a pastor who emphasized the fallibility of priests and bishops, and asked the parishoners for understanding and prayers - "we really need them!" If more priests shared Fr. Ostick's understanding and humility, many would be more ready to listen to them.)

Welcome to the FREE WORLD. You don't like the FREE WORLD? Then leave.

Reading some of these posts only confirms that the devil realy is living among us!

That's another person I am smarter than :) - a priest. Kewl!!!

"to support Obama is to facilitate demonic engagement"

No, it's worse than that... A vote for Obama is supporting demonic dating prior to engagement, and then demonic marriage post demonic engagement...

Let me tell you my story...

I'm a baker by trade, and consider the butcher a dear friend... He's the kind of guy you like to have a beer with, y'know...? But the candlestick maker...? God... I don't know how that puke came to be in the same tub with us...

Hey, I know what you're thinkin'... Three men in a tub...? Look, we don't live in New York City... There ain't no saunas around here that I know of, so we would all get together and take a hot soak... Some bread, some beef... Nothin' weird about it at first, so I didn't think it all that fruity just because dude wanted to bring candles to the party... I mean, that's his profession, right...? Who am I to judge...? But we're all sittin' in the tub, candles aglow, and Mr. CandleStick Maker tells me that his daughter is gittin' married, and that he wants to order a DEVIL'S FOOD CAKE for the reception... Yes, weird, but I just thought it was a matter of poor taste... PWT, know what I mean...? Never pegged his girl to get married, though... One of those "goth" chicks... Black lipstick and pierced everywhere, but I always considered it harmless... Butcher's oldest kid did her before he left for Iraq and said she was quality meat... So she found some guy with a green mohawk to give the kid a name... Whatever... Good for her... Some schmo's gotta fork it over, right...? And as for the cake...? I gotta pay my bills, you know...? Devil's Food with two little plastic freaks on top... Baby bump on the slu... On her... It don't bother me so long as they pay cash...

Anyhow, it's about this time that Mr. CS Maker mentions that his ex-wife was coming out from San Francisco with her "partner" to attend, and how it was gonna be really weird that he and his "roommate" Richard were gonna have to let 'em stay on the pull out... Richard... Wow... Don't wanna be pals with THAT guy... I mean, my name's Jonathan and people call me Johnny but... You know what I'm sayin'... You gotta be a real man to pull that off... Like the Veep... No THERE'S a Richard to respect...

Anyhow, sorry to digress... Back to the tub... Let's just say I was starting to get a little uncomfortable with all the freakishness and really casual attitudes, but the Butch and I just traded a glance when he got back from the grill with the kielbasa and got the conversation back where it should've been: on the Jets and their chances in the post season...

THAT'S when something touched my manhood... Could've been a hotdog, sure, but it felt like a CANDLE...! When it did, I suddenly remembered the OBAMA / BIDEN '08 sign in the puke's yard and how that freak had been the Father Anusencion's favorite altar boy until he was maybe, I don't know... 23 or something...? Ok, 19... Still... LOT'S of confession, let me tell you... He was another one that didn't seem destined for actual marriage, know what I mean...? Whatever... I try to live and let live until someone gets me riled up enough to load my glock...

But DEVIL'S FOOD...? And that freakin' sign...? I got out and toweled off and told him to get his freakin' cake from COSCO or somewhere... Butch and I took our sausages elsewhere...

So I'm with you, pal... Demonic marriage is a FACT, and this ain't no fairy tale...!

Give me a break! Moral compass? The Church gives all these celebrities and Politicians "Specials of the Week". How many divorces and re-marriages are permitted with Movie Stars? Guliani gets to receive Communion and spew trash and lies about Obama, Hilary and the Democrats. Hey there are good Catholics and there are bad Catholics. There are also good and bad Jews, Moslems, Hindus and Budhists. That Christian, George Bush spoke to God and said God told him to invade Iraq. The Pope told Crusaders to kill the Moslems. The Inquisition? Columbus discovering America? The Portuguese in the Philpines? All for the greater honor and glory of God. Pillage and rape. All in the name of God. Moral compass, my arse! Christ is the Good Shepard, but sometimes we have to stop acting like sheep.

Please let me know if this is correct. A vote for Obama who is pro-choice is a sin. But a vote for a pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-guns, pro-corporation, pro-wealthy, anti-regulation,but not the common man candidate is not a sin. No man is perfect.

Hmmm, something doesn't seem right here. And who are we to judge....only God will judge in the end not the common man (or righteous priest).

"Reading some of these posts only confirms that the devil realy is living among us!"

You're right. The devil is living among us and especially in churches with all the greed, lust, fear-mongering, lies and corruption. How many pedophiles are "still" Catholic Priests? It's easy to turn a blind eye to your own people, right? Organized Religion is nothing more than cults trying to control the faithful. End. Of. Story.

Jesus came with a message for the those who would listen. The message has not changed and unfortunately the attitude and position of religious leaders has not changed either. If the church or its leadership thinks it has any power over God's will, then it hasn't learned anything since Jesus tried to set things right the last time.

It is interesting that the Catholic priest Jay Scott Newman took that position. Did he think that his fellow priests who molested kids, and his Church that helped covered up, blinked an eye, at those priests, and then fought the victims in order to avoid or to reduce compensations to the victims commit a mortal sin too? If so, did he speak up and does that mean those churches should not even be allowed to offer communion?

I am applaud that in this day and age, we find such ridiculous positions among the clergy.

iiell...
Pedophiles,pedophiles,pedophiles,pedophiles. How many times should we say the word? How many times will we condem the whole Catholic Church and all of it'e faithful followers for the SINS of evil men and those that turned a blind eye toward them.
"greed, lust, fear-mongering, lies and corruption"
Where you see greed, I see Generosity. Where you see fear mongering, I see Hope. Where you see lies, I see TRUTH. Where you see corruption, I see Purity. What Church do you belong to?

If you are so sincere, why not do something that makes a real difference? Try education and birth control! Surely the data are a bit low - only the botched abortions show up in hospitals and health services.

Lancet

ROME, Oct. 11 — A comprehensive global study of
abortion has concluded that abortion rates are
similar in countries where it is legal and those
where it is not, suggesting that outlawing
the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percentof women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

The results of the study, a collaboration between scientists from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute in New York, a reproductive rights group, are being published Friday in the journal Lancet.“We now have a global picture of induced abortion in the world, covering both countries where it is legal and countries where laws are very restrictive,” Dr. Paul Van Look, director of the W.H.O. Department of ReproductiveHealth and Research, said in a telephone interview. “What we see is that the law does not influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. If there’s an unplanned pregnancy, it does not matter if the law is restrictive or liberal.”

But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said. “Generally, where abortion is legal it will be provided in a safe manner,” Dr. Van Look said. “And the opposite is also true: where it is illegal, it is likely to be unsafe, performed under unsafe conditions by poorly trained providers.”

The data also suggested that the best way to reduce abortion rates was not to make abortion illegal but to make contraception more widely available, said Sharon Camp, chief executive of the Guttmacher Institute.

In Eastern Europe, where contraceptive choices have broadened since the fall of Communism,the study found that abortion rates have decreased by 50 percent, although they are still relatively high compared with those in Western
Europe. “In the past we didn’t have this kind of data to draw on,” Ms. Camp said. “Contraception is often the missing element” where abortion rates are high, she said.

Anti-abortion groups criticized the research, saying that the scientists had jumped to conclusions from imperfect tallies, often estimates of abortion rates in countries where the procedure was illegal. “These numbers are not definitive and very susceptible to interpretation according to the agenda of the people who are organizing the data,” said Randall K. O’Bannon, director of educationand research at the National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund in Washington.He said
that the major reason women die in the developing world is that hospitals and health systems lack good doctors and medicines. “They have equated the word ‘safe’ with ‘legal’ and ‘unsafe’ with ‘illegal,’ which gives you the
illusion that to deal with serious medical system problems you just make abortion legal,” he said.

The study indicated that about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year and that 67,000 women die as a result of complications from those abortions, most in countries where abortion is illegal.

The researchers used national data for 2003 from countries where abortion was legal and therefore tallied. W.H.O. scientists estimated abortion rates from countries where it was outlawed, using data on hospital admissions for abortion complications, interviews with local family planning experts and surveys of women in those countries.

The wealth of information that comes out of the study provides some striking lessons, the researchers said. In Uganda, where abortion is illegal and sex education programs focus
only on abstinence, the estimated abortion rate was 54 per 1,000 women in 2003, more than twice the rate in the United States, 21 per 1,000 in that year. The lowest rate, 12 per 1,000, was in Western Europe, with legal abortion and widely available contraception.

The Bush administration’s multibillion-dollar campaign against H.I.V./AIDS in Africa has directed money to programs that promote abstinence before marriage, and to condoms only as a last resort.

It has prohibited the use of American money to
support overseas family planning groups that provide abortions or promote abortion as a method of family planning.

Worldwide, the annual number of abortions
appeared to have declined between 1995, the
last year such a broad study was conducted, and
2003, from an estimated 46 million to 42 million, the study concluded. The 1995 study, by the Guttmacher Institute, had far less data on
countries where abortion was illegal.

Some countries, like South Africa, have undergone substantial transitions in abortion laws in that time. The procedure was made legal in South Africa in 1996, leading to a 90 percent decrease in mortality among women who had abortions, some studies have found.

Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, though. It is the second-leading cause of death among women admitted to hospitals in Ethiopia, its Health Ministry has said. It is the cause of 13 percent of maternal deaths at hospitals in Nigeria, recent studies have found.

Rational1980 wrote

"It is not a political issue in this case it is a moral issue."

Actually, it is sort of both - whenever you tell people for whom to vote, you've strayed from the realm of teaching and informing the development of conscience into politics.

"The Catholic Church has been a profound force for good in this world, but liberals are so blinded by hate and their support for continuing the holocaust of the unborn that they can't see the good that the Church does."

The Church has a mixed history, but I largely agree with you about the modern church. Unfortunately, the noise raised by abortion does tend to obscure the broader picture. For example, it seems you are so blinded by your passion that you fail to see the liberals often sitting next to you in the pews. You don't even try to understand their more-than-one-dimensional position on abortion.

"Sure there have been mistakes made by members of the Church, but it doesn't mean that it's teachings are wrong. The Church provides a moral compass in a world that has willingly abandoned morality."

So how are we to distinguish between teachings that are in error than those that are valid? The Church as a whole has gone off-track in the past - group-think has led many an organization astray. The moral compass of the church was damaged in the sex scandals; the church is trying to heal itself, but rehabilitation is going to take more than a few years. If nothing else, it ought to provoke more humility among the bishops and priests who participated or looked the other way.

"It has become politically fashionable to bash the "Christian Right" for being intollerant, but it is the left in this country that is far more guilty of intollerance. Just read the other responses in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about."

Oh for pity's sake. The Right bashes the Left, the Left bashes the Right, and you can't take the hyperventilation here as representative of Left. The beam in your own eye before the splinter in your neighbor's, etc. We could all use more charity.

bmovie has proven my point. This is not about the Spanish Inquisition, this is about a moral teaching. Ending a human life is immoral, supporting the ending of a human life is immoral. Why can't people stop talking about what some Catholics did 500 years ago when discussing what one Catholic Priest said this week? The Catholic Church is not the individuals in the hierarchy, it is the people in it's congregation and it's teachings. There is such a thing as right and wrong in this world. Many Catholics have done bad things in the past, but how does that have anything to do with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Here is an email that I sent this guy--you can send your own to jayscottnewman@mac.com

"As a Roman Catholic I find myself sickened to my heart by the divisive letter that you wrote to your parishioners about Mr. Obama. The slickness of how you put in the middle name "Hussein" as a way of demeaning him and Muslims is beyond belief. I have never professed to know the mind of Jesus Christ, let alone to have the effrontery to speak for Him as you have in your letter, but I know from the writings of his disciples that He was a tolerant man. In my opinion your entire letter is an example of the sin of intolerance and bearing false witness against another human being. I will save your letter as an example to my children to think for themselves, in a logical manner and don't follow anyone blindly, no matter the symbolic position they occupy. Too many young children were duped by the collar over the years into believing that sexual relations with priests were somehow alright and did not find out until years later that the guilt they felt was the result of being duped by monsters, not saints. What you are doing with your letter, condemning parishioners for voting for who they think can lead this country out of 2 wars and a broken economy that are causing millions to suffer, is almost as bad as duping small children.
It is extremely hypocritical to fight for life in the womb and yet do nothing to prevent the deaths of thousands in Iraq where the Roman Catholic Church did nothing to stop the war. George Bush was anti-abortion, but pro-war and that somehow makes him a righteous man in your eyes. I know of no one who is pro-abortion, not even Mr. Obama. You should write another letter and apologize to your parishioners and Mr. Obama. And then you should step down."

As I understand it Obama had the stated goal of reducing abortions while not interfering with the rights granted by the court. i.e. not attempting to legislate behavior but to educate and lead by moral authority and example. Am I to believe that every candidate running for political office who does not run on an anti-gluttony platform, or perhaps who does not promise to prosecute those who create a graven image, falls into the same category? Also - as football season is at its halfway point, can I receive still communion if I root for a pro-choice quarterback in the Superbowl?

This is unbelievable! If the RCC doesn't lose it tax exempt status over this it never will.

Who is this guy's bishop? Can't he put a muzzle on Newman?

At least the bishops of Washington, D.C. and Wilmington, Delaware are refusing to go along with the ultra conservative, fundamentalist leaning, single issue bishops who are participating in the so called "Communion Wars."

"Jesus came with a message for the those who would listen. The message has not changed and unfortunately the attitude and position of religious leaders has not changed either. If the church or its leadership thinks it has any power over God's will, then it hasn't learned anything since Jesus tried to set things right the last time.'

Which message was that?

"Love your neighbor as yourself"?--- would be to also let me receive Communion if I did not agree with you politically or if I believe that Abortion is a personal decision of which I alone will bear the responsibilities of my decision"?

Unfortunately, we end up at this point because some people take the message of "Go forth and multiply" as a guy's right to make babies without the responsibilities of being a father. Or worse yet, if I can't multiply, let me grab the next Altar boy.

Then anyone who voted for a pro death penalty politician........

Hey, doesn't a fetus also have its own life? Protecting human life shouldn't be just a Christian moral. It should be the first step in basic human moral.

Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!

According to the election results, more Catholics voted for Obama than McCain -- sounds like there will be lots Hail Mary's to go around.

"The Catholic Church is not the individuals in the hierarchy, it is the people in it's congregation and it's teachings"

Then why does this individual "high priest" speaking for me? Forgive me, but "Who died and made him the Pope?"

But of course if the Pope was to say the same thing then Catholics will have a fate like the Druids.

This is exactly why, over the years, I CHOSE to leave the IGNORANCE of religion behind. This idiot is clearly overstepping his authority in making such an ignorant pronouncement.

What I love about such displays of ignorance is that they show how little these poor misguided zealots know about their own faith! Whatever faith they are practicing today is most certainly NOT in keeping with the philosophy of Jesus Christ.

Whatever happened to the admonition, "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's, and render unto god that which is god's."

This action by the most ignorant Mr. Jay Scott Newman should, at the very least, be looked into, by the IRS, as a violation of the prohibition on tax-exempt organizations engaging in political activity, with an eye towards revoking this church's tax-exempt status.

patfan, I do not belong to any church. I belong to God. I have seen too many "religions" and churches abuse and use those who are faithful. I am sick and tired of religion, war, greed, corruption and lies that come from these "Religious Figures" and their Churches.

JudgeRoyBean :
"He was a tolerant man"?
You call yourself a Catholic and the best you can describe your Lord and Saviour is "He was a tolerant man"?
"do nothing to prevent the deaths of thousands in Iraq"
How about the lives that were saved by removing a Murdering Dictator? Please don't call yourself a Catholic! If this is what you teach your children they'll believe that they are Catholics too. Your views and calling yourself a Catholic are the real problem with the Catholic Church today.

"Here is an email that I sent this guy--you can send your own to jayscottnewman@mac.com"

Damn, the priest jayscottnewman@mac.com is a Mac user! PC not good enough for jayscottnewman@mac.com? Where'd jayscottnewman@mac.com get the extra money from? I guess we Mac users have to put up with an occasion malware jayscottnewman@mac.com.

But seriously, I applaud the email you sent jayscottnewman@mac.com.

". . . George Bush was anti-abortion, but pro-war and that somehow makes him a righteous man in your eyes. I know of no one who is pro-abortion, not even Mr. Obama. You should write another letter and apologize to your parishioners and Mr. Obama. And then you should step down."

The saddest thing about George Bush is that with over thousands of people dead from Iraq, Katrina and 9/11, the man sleeps fine at night --- as does jayscottnewman@mac.com

Well said ToeKneeF.

I guess this man can't resist driving his own members away from the church. That is what he is doing - wait, maybe the real people have already left. Just the idiots and control freaks with an inferiority complex left....

God works in mysterious ways. So does the church, and I think we can trust more in God to get it right than the church. The latter, after all is only human.....

Wow. I left the Church shortly after the 9/11 attacks, when I realized that all religion, not just Christianity, was a hinderance to the progress of civilization. After reading about this moron, I'm REALLY glad I'm no longer a Catholic, let alone a believer in any religion.

BJD4:

No one would 'want' abortion. I learned this when I found out at the age of 35 that I was carrying a child who would be born with Down syndrome. Even as a born again Christian, I can honestly say that it challenged my own faith. However, what came out of it is that I realized that only I can make that decision for myself; I cannot make it for others.
****

Bravo - a true follower of Christ.,

Jesus himself agonized in the Garden over whether he could bear his cross. What did he ask of his disciples, the future priests and bishops? "Tell me what to do?"

No, Jesus asked them to "watch with me."

May some day the bishops drop their feckless quest to end abortion by defeating politicians and passing laws (doesn't that sound pretty much like any secular interest group?) and turn to teaching, watching with, and healing.

On the issue of sin, the Magisterium surely maintains the authority to determine what constitutes mortal sin. However, in keeping with the main thesis of Ioannes Paulus II's Encyclical "Veritatis Splendor" which was communicated to the faithful in 1993, let me assure all the illiterates out there that our Loving Father taught we were ALL capable of making personal moral decisions that might conflict with our Church's teachings if our decision was made in good conscience.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

(please pay attention to paragraphs 4,5 etc), its very clear here.

Any Priest or Bishop that denies a Catholic Eucharist for making a difficult moral decision in good conscience is in defiance of his Holiness's Word and should be made to answer to God and the Church for his Sins.

iiell...
please tell me about this God you belong to. And where do you get your beliefs in this God from?

To bmovie; I agree with you on your last posting. I would add that the numbers of dead from Iraq war is not thousands. It is tens of thousands. The Iraqi lives count in God's book too. The count was well over 60,000 years ago. It has to be over 100,000. Now then, there is the matter of the maimed and the mentally ill (or both) in America and in Iraq. That has to be more hundreds of thousands. Somehow, if Bush is sleeping like a baby, as he says, feeling he got this all right, it makes me wonder who he is really talking to about all this. Maybe he has a line of communication that runs the wrong way, but he does not know it.....

Let's see ...

Abuse an Altar Boy - 3 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers
Abuse an Altar Boy and mess up his life - 6 Hail Marys and 20 Our Fathers
Condemn and prevent Catholics who vote for Obama because he wants Abortion for women who want or might want one - Priceless.

Patfan
There you go justifying taking a life when you just stated in a previous post that there is NO justification for taking life... Slow down and gather your thoughts...You're obviously a bit confused.

why do these crackpots get so much news coverage.
does this right wing half wit stand with an altar boy reading a voting list with the secret ballots before conferring the wonderful rite of eating a wafer? Catholics must at heart hate democracy and long for the days of yore when the church controlled the government in a theocracy. This is one nutball priest trying to divert attention from a bankrupt church, stilling paying for the tidal wave of pedophilia that it was formerly so enveloped in.

Statement from Msgr Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, SC
on Voting and Holy Communion

T H E D I O C E S E O F C H A R L E S T O N

Statement of Monsignor Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston
CHARLESTON, S.C. (November 14, 2008) - This past week, the Catholic Church’s clear, moral teaching on the evil of abortion has been pulled into the partisan political arena. The recent comments of Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, S.C., have diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion. As Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings. Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions.” The Catechism goes on to state: “In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.”
Christ gives us freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith. Therefore, if a person has formed his
Office of the Administrator
119 Broad Street · Charleston, South Carolina 29401
Post Office Box 818 · Charleston, South Carolina 29402 · Phone (843) 958-2150 · Fax (843) 958-2152
Office of the Administrator
119 Broad Street · Charleston, South Carolina 29401
Post Office Box 818 · Charleston, South Carolina 29402 · Phone (843) 958-2150 · Fax (843) 958-2152
or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.
The pulpit is reserved for the Word of God. Sometimes God’s truth, as is the Church’s teaching on abortion, is unpopular. All Catholics must be aware of and follow the teachings of the Church.
We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child. Let us pray for them and ask God to guide them as they take the mantle of leadership on January 20, 2009.
I ask also for your continued prayers for me and for the Diocese of Charleston.

IMHO, the church has rules for a reason, and because I do not understand fully why these rules exist, I have no place imposing my will on the Church from my position and standing. And if I break the Lord's rules, I am more than willing to do penance. I am not too proud to ask forgiveness. I am thankful that the Good Lord enables me to do penance for my sins, so I am not beyond redemption if I make a mistake, or break the rules. The confessional is a sacred place just as all the Church is sacred, after all. When followers presume to understand why the rules are in place, and to force their understanding on our leaders without the necessary knowledge with which to do so, this is when problems arise, and the benefit of being a part of the Church is diluted. I am not too proud to be a follower. I do not wish for women to be priests because then who would be the nuns? I would loathe to see men in nun's habits! IMHO, for a woman to wish to be a priest, is to deny the importance of the contributions of Catholic Sisters. :)

Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!

We all were fetuses once who couldn't speak up.

The priest is doing what he can to protest against the biggest genocide ever in history.

I am with him.

"Any Priest or Bishop that denies a Catholic Eucharist for making a difficult moral decision in good conscience is in defiance of his Holiness's Word and should be made to answer to God and the Church for his Sins."

Thank you. It is good to know that God is in the details. This is the Church and God I loved, as I stand in the back of the Church, never feeling worthy to come tod close because I have proven myself unworthy, thanking Him for all the good He has given me and my family and understanding the bad in my life. Apparently jayscottnewman@mac.com was too busy to open up his mind as well as his heart.

patfan--not that anything logical would get through to such a stalwart of the faith as you, but for my own sake I'll write the words. The only thing that we are sure of is that Jesus was a man who was tolerant and loving. The rest of the story that you are familiar with is subject to conjecture, twisted to fit the needs of those in power over the centuries. Probably the highest compliment that we can give to another person is that they are tolerant. I'm sorry that you will never hear those words spoken about you. By the way, the last time I looked around the world there are hundreds of murderous dictators still in power--what are you doing here--you should be in Darfur or Tibet or China or North Korea or Saudi Arabia or Syria or Cuba. And take Father Newman with you.

It is frankly depressing to me to see even one Catholic priest lining up with the wacko Southern Baptists here south of the Mason Dixon line. If you follow the rationale of these proponents, and make all your political decisions based on one aspect of a candidates position, then in effect you are saying that you would vote for Adolph Hitler as long as he was a rigid "Right To Life" (which is a real misnomer) proponent. As if this trumps all the other aspects of mercy. Frankly, in my opinion anyone taking this position is so dogma bound they don't deserve to have an opinion.

Here a bit of advice for the misguided Catholic priest:

1. President-Elect Obama is NOT a Catholic. For twenty years he attended a church which officially considers abortion as acceptable. P-E Obama can be blamed only for believing in the teachings of his church.

2. It is good to have a moral stand but not impose it on people of other faiths. Inform the politics and the public yes, but expect only one's own flock to follow the teachings. Give to Ceaser what belongs to Caesar, namely to govern according to the majority concept of morality. Jesus taught, to be in the world, but not of the world.

3. Roe vs Wade is not a mandate to abort. The state does not force Catholics to abort their unborn. Overturning Roe vs Wade is a laudable goal, but it must be done with public education and with legal groundwork. Catholics can choose not to abort their children even while Roe vs Wade is in place. So if Catholics voted for Obama because of social policies which benefit them directly, why is it a sin? Politicians are not expected to be saints. P-E Obama does not force any Catholic woman to opt for abortion. If that were the case, voting for him would have constituted a sin.

4. Catholics should be given the right to vote for a Caesar who best answers whatever need they have at that particular election cycle. The Catholic Church should not represent any political party or force its parishioners to vote one way or another. Form the conscience by discussing the merits of policies, all policies, but give each one the right to vote as they see fit.

I think I just got it! The wonderful Christian "Forgiveness Game"! You know, you "sin", then find "The Lord", ask for forgiveneness and you're free!

This really is a re-embracement scheme for those sacrilegious swine who voted for Obama to be taken in once again by the church. Do penance and you can receive the sacrament from this dodo. (And of course you're free to donate once again too.. we couldn't have you in a permanent state of banishment and making those donations to Planned Parenthood or something!)

Wait.. What happens to the money donated to the church from those who have sinned with their votes? Oh no.. what if they have donated and then someone actually reads the words of Jesus and learns that all those people who voted for Bush and his cronies supported murderers, idolators (after all, the worship of money isn't exactly Kosher, is it?) and have violated the principles of the Roman Catholic Church (not to mention those of God's)?

Hello? Is anybody left in there? I think we just emptied the place. Between those Obama sinners and the rest,everyone's gone!

They're flocking to the evangelicals who've taken the forgiveness game to another level. Its like the Arms Race of the soul.

For the good Father's sake, I hope there is no God, at least not a vengeful one like the one his church identifies.

This, Father, is a Democracy. I suggest you find a country that is a theocracy. You'd fit better there!

Rhys1

JudgeRoyBean :
"the last time I looked around the world there are hundreds of murderous dictators still in power"
What your implying is we should do nothing. Picking an area of the world that is the most hostile toward the United States directly is not a good place to start? Remember that we have a volunteer military. My son is a soldier. He is willing to put his life on the line for your safety and the safety of others. He believes protecting human life and freedoms is not just a choice but an obligation.

"Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!
We all were fetuses once who couldn't speak up.
The priest is doing what he can to protest against the biggest genocide ever in history.
I am with him."

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

The difference between a religion and a cult........................about a hundred years, give or take. "I like your Christ. I don't care for your Christians. They are not much like your Christ." Ghandi (close to the quote)

bmovie:

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

November 14, 2008 8:26 PM

________________________________________________

These are tired pro-abortionist arguments. Just substitute the word with "infanticide" and you get the picture.

Read a standard textbook of human embryology for a start to understand the mindset of those who are against abortions.

Understand the mindset of those who fought to end slavery. It was legal at one time you know. The majority thought it was moral. It was a constitutional right after all. There were plenty of others who thought it was immoral for them to keep slaves but it was none of their business if others did...

Texascynic....

BRAVO!!!!

Our beloved Obama wouldn't be here with us, if his mother chose to abort him, the fetus Obama.

Why won't anyone including Obama do something to stop the killings?

The priest is doing something.

"Statement from Msgr Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, SC
on Voting and Holy Communion"

So the issue is now a non-issue.

If this is a real email and statement, then I apologize for some of my postings especially if I have offended some readers. May God have mercy on all of us as we try to learn about God and our purpose in life.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.... But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
- Steven Weinberg

Texascynic....
Ghandi, what a great man. I like and agree with his quote. I am a Christian. I strive daily to be more Christ like. I fail miserably. It's easy to understand those who look unfavorably on Christians. But that doesn't keep me from trying. I think that is all that God wants any of us to do. Keep trying!

What is the real difference between abortion and infanticide: the age of the child. A born child is even more dependent on others for its survival. In the womb it is comparatively more independent. The mother only has to eat a little extra food and bear the little discomfort as her stomach grows in size (which women who want to have the child, calls a mother's pride!). The growing child is attached to a placenta via its umbilical cord which gets from the mother the oxygen and nutrients it needs for its growth and gets rid of its waste. The baby grows cocooned in its own amniotic sac, protected by amniotic fluid. That is why a new born baby has no real attachment to its mother and responds equally well to anyone who takes care of its needs. It forms attachments only as a result of relating to others after it is born. Babies play on their own happily and become capable of playing with other children only later. Reason: In the womb it is used to being perfectly happy on its own.

I suppose the priest who calls abortion a sin but molesting kids, burning women as witches and the bevvy of horrors the catholic church has given us fine?

Look in your own backyard first buddy.

I love pro life republicans who support the war in Iraq. Pro lifers who support war, its irony at a basic level but I get a kick out of it.

Your either pro life for every one or shut up.

bmovie:

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

November 14, 2008 8:26 PM

_________________________________________________

It might shock you to know that even after 35 years of having the right to abort unwanted children, the wanted children are not getting the treatment they deserve. Violence against children, abuse, neglect, including sexual abuse is on the rise.

A mindset in which children may be killed because of their dependency is filtering through in how children are being treated after they are born.

The abortion culture is counter productive.

Sweden

Am a catholic living in Sweden and am so ashamed to be one because of this so called priest.I am a catholic and i wouldn´t listen to him, he is not God.The church has lots of money so poverty to them do not exists.No wonder my children do not want to go to church and you know what? i do not force them to be brainwashed.Fr. Newman tell President Bush how many Iraqis died for nothing, you make me sick!

Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin

A Catholic priest in South Carolina has decided that the democratic act of casting a vote is, in some cases, a mortal sin. Therefore, he has decided that parishioners who voted for Barack Obama are not entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ through communion until they've done penance.

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law," Rev. Jay Scott Newman wrote in a letter to parishioners at St. Mary's Catholic Church in Greenville.

"Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation."

Between this blog and many others, there is a wealth of evidence demonstrating the RCC's violation of requirements for tax exempt status. I've gathered many of them together and next week will forward them to my Senators and Congressman.

I urge other democratically minded Americans to do the same.

This priest is a hypocrite. What about those Catholics that voted for President Bush in 2000 only to have him kill 4000-plus innocent civilians and military personnel in an ILLEGAL war? I don't recall any priest telling those who voted for Bush to refrain from receiving communion. Isn't killing those living a sin? Where was the outcry over the child abuse that took place over decades with no one warning Bishops or Priests that they should refrain from receiving communion? There are so many issues facing our country and to hang over people's heads the thought of a mortal sin being cast because the priest doesn't approve of someone's position is ludicrous (sp??). Enough of telling American citizens how they can or should vote; the church's tax status should be under review.

The offending priest is just one more reason to get rid of this ridiculous "On Myth" section.

patfan,

My God is the Father of Christ. Where do I get my beliefs? I get them from common sense, logic, observation, prayer, listening, seeing, believing, knowing, feeling, self decency, tolerance, dicsipline and literature.

I do not get them from a Church which wants to tell me how my personal relationship with God should be. I do not believe that abortion is right, but I also do not believe in telling others what is right and wrong. God IS the only one who can tell us that. God is the one who we all must answer to and be judged by. I am no better than any other human being out there, we are ALL sinners, we are all imperfect and when our time comes, God will be the one who decides our fates.

This is clear cut case of the absurd mix of intellectualism and superstition.

Groucho Marx’s well-known quip ought to come mind for anyone who considers the nonsense and illogic of the corrupt Catholic leasership to make sense: "I would not join any club (religion) that would have someone like me for a member."

Moral judgment is not the sole property of Christianity. On the contrary, there has probably been no other movement in recorded history that has either participated in or supported the death, enslavement, and displacement of their fellow man than Christianity. From the Inquisitions (the Pope helped), to the crusades, to the deathly colonization of the new and some of the old world, to Nazi Germany (yes, they were mostly Catholic and Protestant--the Jews got left out); Christians used their righteousness to support or lead the way to the most non-Christlike theocracies ever recorded. Just in this country, "believers" killed and isolated the Native American, enslaved the African, and again tolerated the crusades of Bush with whatever propaganda devised. Spirituality is not being blindly led into immoral actions by religious dogma, in my humble opinion. This Priest has set himself up as another false prophet motivated more out of politics than understanding. IMHO

Voting for McCain supports an illegal war and murder of men, women, children in Iraq. I'd love to hear how Rev. Newman reconciles the hypocrisy of that. There are no exceptions to the Commandment against killing. Killing is killing. Perhaps he could have offered instead to purge one pedophile priest from the Catholic Church for every vote cast for McCain.

MikeL4 wrote,
"This priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil. That is not knew nor controversial. Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

Upholding politicians who allow policies allowing the killing of unborn children is not a Christian value. You are free to think and speak what you want in America. You are also free to damn your soul."

--

It's funny how hypocrisy works. Vote for the person whose actions will, directly and/or indirectly, kill people; not for the person whose actions will, directly and/or indirectly, kill people. Who cares about what else they support, like killing people.

Isn't it time to start thinking logical?

Is somebody changing the time stamps on this thread?

Abortion is such a sensitive topic. I am in now way "pro-choice." Abortion would never be an option for me. I rely on my morals and values to make the choice (which God allows his children to do in life). However, there are thousands in this nation the don't hold my same Christian values. What I can't do is impose my values in a secular government. The government doesn't have the right to legislate my Christian values on the entire nation. Best part of article was that pedophiles are still priests but those who think women should be ordained are excommunicated. Must we remember that Early Christians had no problems with slavery, however, slavery is the worst and darkest part of American history. A few parallels here??

It never crosses anybody's mind that there are so many pedophiles because women are running from early childcare and other critical female roles like it's the plague to be a woman. It never occurs to anybody that perhaps many of the people who are gay are not being honest about why they are gay, due to taboos that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church. Why does nobody seem to care about all the judges and teachers and parents who are pedophiles.

"It never crosses anybody's mind that there are so many pedophiles because women are running from early childcare and other critical female roles like it's the plague to be a woman"

Are YOU NUTS? What does this statement mean???? Pedophiles actions are caused BY women????? Yep, another nutcase blaming women for anything.
Thought this blog article was about a priest with power issues.

I am a Catholic,a republican, Yes I VOTED for Barack Obama. For the last eight years, I have been praying for forgiveness because I voted for Bush. Look where our country is today, at war, thousand of faithful men and women are losing their lives. Families are losing their jobs, their homes, reduced to living in cars, and on the streets. All of this going on while the Republican corporates make millions of dollars, oh and lets not forget the fact that we are losing our retirements totaling millions of hard earned money. I am F****** MAD. The Catholic church or any other church has no right to tell me who I should vote for, never the less condemn me for the choices I am free to make. It is my right as an American to vote as I see fit. Notice the last four letters in the word American (i can)! If the church in North Carolina wants to start telling American's how to vote, they have no right to have a tax exempt status. This priest should be ex-communicated from the church the mortal sin he has committed against his parishioners. Can someone please explain to me why some churches are doing this? Have they lost their faith in our Lord and Savior in attempting to control the way we think. I think we need to leave it up to GOD, and the only way to do that is through prayer.

I am merely suggesting that women are the ones who are meant to be caring for the very young— their *own* young, and that neglect causes emotional and psychological damage, messing up people's gender instincts. We all have to take responsibility if there are negative social trends. Women *and* men.

patfan-i'll pray for your son's safety. But isn't it ironic that as a soldier he may kill one of those grown-up fetuses that you worked so hard to protect? I guess there are good grown-up fetuses and bad grown-up fetuses. I can't remember at what age Christ said it was alright to destroy a fetus. Maybe we can consult Father Newman. I'm sure he would know since Jesus and him are so close.

How remarkable that men of faith and commitment, like Father Bourgeois, appear to be a minority in the Catholic church.

I'm not a Catholic, but I call on all of you who are, to speak out with Father Bourgeois' inspired message.

Isn't penance simply a ritualized act of regret? If so, presuming anybody who has had an abortion would most likely regret it— whether or not it was condoned by other women— how would it be presumptuous of a Catholic Priest to require that we made the effort to show regret for the loss of a life? Anybody with any sense at all would prefer to *prevent* an unwanted pregnancy. And there are other ways to do this besides pills… but this is a whole separate topic. IMHO, it all boils down to what choices are available. I feel choices for those of us who value integral leadership are somewhat limited in this time. There is so much pressure to conform to lax standards and to shift responsibility onto others for our own misgivings.

If he were saying we ought to be beheaded for having an abortion, I would be the first in line with my sword and armor, but he is merely suggesting that the act is regrettable, and proposing the Catholic means to self-forgiveness. I find the act of penance to be cathartic, myself, but I was always a true Catholic at heart, whatever that means.

God has a special plan for that priest.

God is using that priest to decimate the income and membership of a most sinful institution.

As long as that evil priest is allowed to expouse his moronic and hypocritical opinions the more Ex-Catholics will there be.

I call on all Catholics that can still use the brain that God gave them to desert the Church that still lives in the Middle Ages and join a superstition-free 21st century.

How is it that murdering adults through Bush's war is ok but aborting fetuses is not?

How is it that forcing a woman to bear a child is saintly, but when that woman needs financial help to raise that baby it is ok to turn your back and let the child grow up in a living hell?

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

You know, I wondered about that myself. All those women crying because their sons went and died for this war— and did not, no— *could* not stop them from volunteering. How does this come about? It's definitely not the Church's fault. I blame it on society.

We all make choices, and we all make mistakes, and regret is the consequence. Whether or not we have standards depends on how much we value life, and the quality thereof.

I wonder why clerics like Newman never wag their fingers at the five Catholic Supreme Court Justices who could, unilaterally, reverse Roe v. Wade tomorrow.

It takes time for things to evolve in a given direction, so the prospect of a shifting of standards is terrifying to some. But on the other hand, as there are so many alternative forms of prevention, perhaps the motivation is necessary to develop that level of forethought and discipline.

More information on the rhythm method, and natural means for fertility inhibitors. There are many less regrettable options which we cannot choose if we are not aware of them.

Are Roman Catholic priests in the USA required to adhere to our Constitution? If not why are the permitted to serve tax free?

Wow - I am actually really astounded at how ignorant some people are. I cannot believe that there are a number of people on here trying to claim that Christianity came before democracy. Did you not learn anything in history class? Did you never consider that BC stands for "before christ" and that ancient Athens, the "birthplace of democracy" began having direct voting by its citizens beginning in the 6th century BC?

With ignorant people scrambling up their math and dates so much, it wouldn't be surprising if some people thought that humans and dinosaurs were once living together at the same time. Oh, wait....some religious crazies already do!

This is all very hard for me as a man of deep spiritual convictions. My upbringing has embued me with a respect for all faiths. On the other hand, it is hard, as a person of color with two minister grandfathers and as a native of South Carolina who personally witnessed Klan crosses being burned in my front yard and who had to run across moonlit fields to escape KKK night riders, to not be aware of both the religiously blasphemous as well as the racially-tinged aspect of this Prelate's proclimation. So, how does this differ in the least from Taliban, Shia, Sunni, Zionist, or Waahabi (sic) extremism? b

LOL! This priest is killin' me... Haaaa.... Please stop... No seriously... LOL... stop.... My stomach hurts... OHoooo Haaaaaaa

Mr. Waters, Rev. Newman's position is even more insidious than your article implies. President-Elect Obama does not support abortion rights per se. His support for abortion rights rests on the fact that they are are constitutionally protected rights like freedom of speech and religion.

Rev. Newman is in effect telling his parishioners that the U.S. Constitution is intrinsically evil. That is quite a claim.

Wait a minute, didn't we see pretty much the same claim on a different issue in South Carolina almost 150 years ago?

our religion is suppose to converge with our daily life. T0 be otherwise is to be less of who we are. Yet we as a society find it convenient to separate church and state. I do find wisdom in that as we are only human. The Church, in as much as it is instituted by Christ, is also a human institution. Why? Because we are part of it. For my priest to express his political preference as to who to vote for, it is his right as a citizen. I will not take that away from him. But, he must realize also the significance of his position in society, and not use the pulpit for that purpose. It is not my Church alone that is guilty of that but of many other religions. Washington Post take note.
Likewise, please get politicians off religions' back and find another word for gay union. It is not marriage. Call it civil union, endow it with secular protection, but do not go around calling it a marriage. God does not bless it with natural gifts of procreation nor other sacramental blessings. If a religious institution has a tradition of having only men in its robe, it is not for outsiders to tell it what to do. That tradition is there for a reason. Politician and atheists please stay out of religion.
As for the abortion issue, it is easy for pro-lifers to say stop it. And, for pro-choice to say its a woman's right? What about our responsibilities to work to end the conditions that led to this tragedy? Nobody wants to kill a child. Lets stop sexualizing our society, take care of our women and maybe in a generation or so we would stop debating about abortion altogether. Let us teach our kids that their sex and color is not all they are to be. Which goes back to my first point, my religion and my citizenship is suppose to make me a whole person.

This priest has decided that people who can't think for themselves can no longer participate in a ritual more appropriate to zombies than to living human beings - the consuming of the flesh and blood of another human as a "holy" act.

"Eat his body, drink his blood, then we'll sing a song of love, la de da, la de da..." This is an actual catholic communion song. Does anyone see just how sick this really is?

A friend figured out this cannibalistic connection when he was being "prepared" for his first communion in the late 1940s. When he refused, the nun beat him severely, and even he could see at his young age that the nun got off on beating him. He never made his first communion, and he's all the better for it.

Catholics should be grateful that this priest is banning more than half of them from being flesh-eating and blood-drinking zombie sheep. Anyone with a brain doesn't need to do such things to be able to interact with the Divine, nor do they need priests or churches. This clown did a whole bunch of catholics a huge favor - and their children will be all the safer for it.

This priest has decided that people who can think for themselves can no longer participate in a ritual more appropriate to zombies than to living human beings - the consuming of the flesh and blood of another human as a "holy" act.

"Eat his body, drink his blood, then we'll sing a song of love, la de da, la de da..." This is an actual catholic communion song. Does anyone see just how sick this really is?

A friend figured out this cannibalistic connection when he was being "prepared" for his first communion in the late 1940s. When he refused, the nun beat him severely, and even he could see at his young age that the nun got off on beating him. He never made his first communion, and he's all the better for it.

Catholics should be grateful that this priest is banning more than half of them from being flesh-eating and blood-drinking zombie sheep. Anyone with a brain doesn't need to do such things to be able to interact with the Divine, nor do they need priests or churches. This clown did a whole bunch of catholics a huge favor - and their children will be all the safer for it.

Oh, but looking the other way at capital punishment, torture, pre-emptive war and hiding pedophile priests are conveniently OK.

Christ's Church indeed. If I were Jesus, I would change my last name.

Well this article has finally confirmed what I have thought all along---religion is irrelevant!

The socalled priest in question does not reflect Catholic moral theology concerning the use of prudential judgement (read "living in the real world") when it comes to making the best choices in imperfect circumstances. Nor does he follow the teaching of the current pope on making electoral choices in an imperfect world. He is speaking for himself and reveals himself to be a self-righteous, miserable excuse for a pastor. The fact that his bishop has not issued a corrective is another example of the lousy leadership the Cathholic Church in the US experiences today.

Rev. Jay Scott Newman should just plain shut up. It's none of his business how people vote. He is a narrow-minded, pompous little prick (sorry, I don't usually call people that, but sometimes it's difficult not to).

This is what happens when you place popes, cardinals, bishops and priests between yourself and your God. They are human beings, which means they can be dumb, stupid, hypocritical, sexist, racist and many other things - including rapists, as we now know - so why do you let them decide over you? They should have no power - period.

It sounds to me like there are a lot of hateful, uneducated people posting on this thread who would gladly do without any religion whatsoever, yet pretend to be "Christians". They would make threats and such rather than substantiate their assertions with logic or facts.

If some of them are priests, they should be ejected from the Church— it's clear that they became priests for political reasons if they do not wish to adhere to any rules, but simply make the rules us as they go along, and all about their carnal whims, destroying the Church in the process.

I wish they would stay out of the discussion, or else understand that the religious among us will have no choice but to attack them with as much fervor in order to secure our interests in the preservation of Religion.

What is religion, anyhow? It is a group of people who agree. Show me your families, and your innermost thoughts, and show me the fruits of your labor so that I might see how your choices have manifested around you, before you presume to tell me how to conduct my religion. Do not attack in this manner, or you forfeit all reason and merit. You will be ejected from the Church if all you understand is destruction.

Yonkers, New York
15 November 2008

Jesus Christ himself took Magdalene as his wife and bore children by her.

It is certain that Jesus Christ loved Magdalene and, by extension, loved all women.

Much of the Christian bible is the handiwork of the 400 or so Catholic bishops, all men, who were called by the emperor Constantine to the Council of Niceae in 1415 to "clean up" the Bible.

Those bishops chose to discriminate cruelly against women, and inserted in Scriptures those provisions which are susceptible to be construed as effectively denying women the same rights as men.

All of them obviously forgot that Jesus Christ, their own Savior, loved Magdalene and loved all women, but also all human beings.

Enlightened Christians these days, both Catholics and Protestants of all stripes, effectively ignore their churches' teaching not to practice birth control or abortion.

These enlightened Christians routinely refuse to allow this particular imposition of their churches to interfere with what they do sexually in the privacy of the homes and in what they consider to be important to a responsible, decent and comfortable lifestyle

These enlightened Christians do not fear one way or the other their churhces' threat of excommuniation. Nor do they feel the need to do penance for practicing birth control or abortion.

For them the threat of excommunication may have been effective in the Middle Ages, but not now in an Age of Reason and Enlightenment.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

God bless this priest for holding up the mirror of truth to his congregation. How often as Americans Catholics do we like to pretend that our votes have no moral consequence. Well they do.

Abortion kills unborn children. Any politician who supports abortion with his/her vote provides material cooperation with that evil. You join that evil when you vote for that politician.

As the Church has pointed out, Abortion is the greatest evil in our society because of the nature and enormity of this crime. The killing of innocents. There have been 40 million unborn children killed since the "right" to kill an unborn child was "found" in the US constitution. Over 1 million unborn children killed a year.

This gives the Abortion issue precedent over all other issues of moral concern for the voter.

The vote for pro-abortion politicians such as Obama, joined you to that evil.

The priest rightly pointed out to his congregation that God gave them free choice.

Many of them, as he is pointing out, are rejecting God and choosing eternal death.

"putting their souls at risk if they took [oath to G-d] without first doing penance"

that whole statement sounds like a perversion of human dignity.

Shame on all who would use Christ's teachings as your moral barometer in one breath, and crucify him in the next for setting a good example that, for whatever reason, some of us are unable to emulate. If we cannot come to terms with the shame of our sins, then we are nothing but boors and thieves.

These people who call themselves "Christians" and yet, show no humility, and no appreciation for the fragility of life; these people can call themselves whatever they please. I can call myself a tree and this does not mean I will grow roots from my feet.

Go and make yourselves another religion and leave Christ the HELL out of it.

Rev. Roy Bourgeois represents the progressive wave of the future for the Catholic Church, if it plans to survive into the next century. Popes like Benedict (Ratzinger) et al, are consigning the Church to the dustheap of the past - marginalized by outworn, medievalist thinking and attendant policies.

The Church has maintained it's primitive authoritarian stance for the last 1500 years, with a brief modern hiatus under the inspiration of John XXIII. The exclusively male-dominated hierarchy of the Church suffers from the problems that all theistic religions suffer from - a complete lack of symmetry. God and His prophets are inevitably male!

The components parts of the Trinity, to wit - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ... who should by all rights be seen as female e.g. Sophia/wisdom of early Gnosticism. The Paraclete is instead depicted as a vague transpersonal form of the Godhead - a development from the 5th century C.E.

There is no Yin Yang of Taoism or Yab Yum of Tantrism - a tacit recognition of truth in the absolute parity & equality between the male and female principles, from a deeply spiritual point of view.

Without the property of symmetry infused in it's clerical structure & hierarchy, the Abrahamic faiths will simply remain out of balance, and out of touch - in this regard, Judaism is by far the most progressive of these three traditions; and whose example should be followed by Christianity and Islam.

Frater Bourgeois is simply recognizing a universal truth whose time has come.....

Has Rev. Newman forgotten that THOUSANDS of innocent civilians have been slaughtered in the war in Iraq, which John McCain supports? How come he's not asking McCain supporters to "repent" too? What a crock. I was raised Catholic but left the Church FOREVER because of nonsense like this. In essence, Rev. Newman is telling his parishioners who voted for Obama to get lost, that they're not good enough for the Catholic Church. I hope they leave in droves--enough is enough. Maybe the Catholic Chruch thinks I'm going to hell. So be it--I'm a compassionate, honest, kind person and I live every day that way. I don't need a hippocrite like Rev. Newman telling me what a bad person I am.

"Any politician who supports abortion with his/her vote provides material cooperation with that evil. You join that evil when you vote for that politician."

THE church is WRONG about separating and choosing which is the GREATEST evil in the taking of life department. To KILL no matter what is evil yet you and so many continue to spout sentences like the ones above without saying also that any politician who supports WAR and the continuing of the taking of ANY life provides material cooperations with THAT evil. You join THAT evil when you vote for THAT politician. You can't be suggesting that to kill an unborn fetus is unacceptable but to kill MANY human beings IS acceptable. ARE YOU REALLY?? How very Christian of you. Many of the people killed in this supposedly ACCEPTED war for Christians were innocent victims. Where is the Christianity in that? To vote for McCain and the lovely ms. Palin is to support war which involves, oh, you know, guns, ammo, for KILLING. Inevitable. To vote in Obama OR McCain is a vote to kill. But did YOU VOTE??? If you did, and most likely McCain was your choice, I imagine YOUR salvation will be greatly hindered with such an act. Stop throwing the stones that many will throw back at you.

People— read the article before commenting, please. Obama and McCain were NOT the only options!!!!!

It's pointless arguing with idiots, and if they make their place throughout our religious institutions, then it is only natural that we have problems with immorality coming from the Church because they are the majority and the majority is the most powerful when it comes to pressuring others to compliance.

GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAY CHURCH WITH YOUR OWN GAY GOD, AND LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND JESUS ***OUT*** OF IT!!!!! JUST *PLEASE* SPARE US THE STUPIDITY!!!

The Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, was published Nov. 5 with an opinion piece headlined "A choice that unites."

"In the end, change occurred. The slogan that accompanied Barack Obama's whole electoral campaign found its expression" in the results of the Nov. 4 election, said the article by Giuseppe Fiorentino.

"As the president-elect underlined in his victory speech in Chicago, America really is the country where anything can happen," a country "able to overcome fractures and divisions that not long ago seemed impossible to heal," it said.

Now comes a priest who tries to undermine the Vactican's message of reconciliation by painting those who voted for as Obama being in the state of mortal sin. This isn't isn't a message of unity for catholics in America. It's divisive and contradicts the message of the Holy See. I think both this priest and his Bishop need to be recalled to Rome to explain why they are intent in dividing American Catholics against each other.

Yes, and my left leg has gangrene, so I am calling a meeting with the right leg and the cerebellum and taking it to task for asking me to amputate.

Here we have a new list for the reformers to cherry-pick. I am curious to see the results:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

Here we have a new list for these "reformers" to cherry-pick. I am curious to see the results:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/10/worshipping-golden-calf.html

Maybe the Gay community can start a church where the entire congregation gets up on the pulpit and lectures the priest, who sits alone in the pews? ROTFLMAO!!!! What a bunch of silly, deluded masterdebaters.

They can hold a gun to their "gay priest's" head, and force him to write the sermon, and then sit him down and let him have it!!! LOL!

If a gay person were the only person who could save your life in ANY circumstance, you who condemn gay people (as if they are animals) are NOT allowed to call upon that person to save you and you need to perish. Of course, how many of you gay bashers would ever be in that situation? So you never have to put that to the test. So you keep on with your hatred. Keep it going. It's so Christian and loving. Blehh. Gag.

No— this is not "gay bashing". It's the defending of people who do not think homosexuality is natural, and the defending of small boys who are handed over to their fathers/uncles/classmates, younameit, while a heap of NEGLIGENT muff-diving WITCHES turn a blind eye so they can have their DIAMONDS.

MOST OF MY READERSHIP ARE GAY MEN.

And you know what, CindyMarie, While I might beat you senseless for letting innocent children play sex-toys for you while you run around spending your husband's money— I would save your life in a millisecond, and without hesitation, if you were dying in front of me and you were a total stranger. I would not ask you for your sexual orientation, or economic status, or your racial background while you lay there bleeding. I would not steal your wallet, or your leather gloves, either.

Only GREEDY, SELFISH WITCHES behave thus, and this is why they ought to be EXCOMMUNICATED.

And you did not stop there, did you. It was not enough that your boys were doing your wifely duties while your husbands grew obese and bald and depressed from neglect.

You funded scientists who enables you to compete with your own daughters, and in doing so, you gave sickness and death and misery to the younger generations of females.

How much more apparent can it be that certain women ***need*** to be treated as dominant forces, and thus moderated by society, rather than viciously pitted one against the other in this excess and insanity?!

TO HELL WITH YOUR KIND, WHO PRESUME TO BE SUPERIOR TO GOD'S PLAN FOR GENDER BALANCE AND EQUALITY. YOUR MEN ARE MISERABLE, YOUR CHILDREN LOST AND MALNOURISHED.

MAY GOD FORGIVE YOU.

Ok, C Halasc, your comments are very strange and offensive. You will gather no one to your side with such statements. And now you have attacked me personally without knowing anything about me.
You say: "While I might beat you senseless for letting innocent children play sex-toys for you while you run around spending your husband's money"....wow. You say I take my husband's money. I make more money than my husband...busted on that one. You accuse me of letting innocent children play with sex toys for ME? Weird to suggest that to a total stranger who would do no such thing. Wow.
"They can hold a gun to their "gay priest's" head, and force him to write the sermon, and then sit him down and let him have it!!! LOL!"
Very strange statement.
Yet you say that many of your readers are gay. Hmmm. What exactly do you write that isn't offensive?
And you imply that females who do NOT condemn gay people the right to live are, as you say, "a heap of NEGLIGENT muff-diving WITCHES (who) turn a blind eye so they can have their DIAMONDS".
Very strange. What diamonds are women after? And they are all witches?
You are saying that little boys are automatically given to the gay community. Very strange. I know gay men and Pedophilia is just as despicable to them. There are sick individuals who permeate the world regardless of sexual preference, and they are people you think are normal because they aren't gay. Pedophilia is disturbed individuals who desire children, not adults who desire the same sex.
I am not a lesbian as I see is the label given....lumping in anyone who supports gays as also gay. Very intelligent. I am a human being who does not perceive gay people as less than myself.
I consider myself much more a believer, a practicing follower in the goodness that G*d gave us all the choice to follow than the person who is making all these anti-gay statements and attack statements when they don't even know the person they are.
I give you no more of my time. You are a scary individual.

Good logic skills. And good riddance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HdGUNm6-qI

C Halasz - you're a total whack job and probably the most offensive/assaultive individual I'd had the displeasure to encounter on these boards -

Keep this up and you'll be removed as a poster. I'll file a personal complaint myself.

They've got a gofer job over at Fox News that you'd be perfect for....you've got my recommendation.

Coming from you, that's a complement.

I am "assaultive" because I would beat the living crap out of a woman who actively enforces this kind of policy:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/06/02/kids.cancer.ap/index.html

C Halsasz - I was thinking you'd work well with Michael Savage or Ann Coulter. Even those two demons from hell need coffee from time to time.

Of course I could be wrong - we hardly know each other. Is 'beating the hell' out of folks something you dwell on?

Ok then - it's Rush Limbaugh for you.......oxycontin with your morning Joe.

Beware that evil temper, sayeth the Lord. The road to hell is paved with bad intentions.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/17687.php

Research from 19 European countries in this week's issue of THE LANCET (pp 2074, 2097) documents how childhood cancer, while still rare, has been slowly increasing over the past 3 decades.

Cancer is rare before age 20 years. Eva Steliarova-Foucher (International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France) and colleagues used the large European database of childhood and adolescent cancer cases to estimate patterns and trends of incidence and survival within Europe.

The investigators obtained high-quality data from 63 European populationbased cancer registries in 19 European countries. Analysis of 113,000 cancers in children and over 18,000 cancers in adolescents during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s showed how the incidence rates of cancer increased by around 1% for children and 1.5% for adolescents per year. The incidence rate by the 1990s was 140 per million for children and 157 per million for adolescents.

The increases were recorded for virtually all tumour types in children, while in adolescents the major changes were seen for carcinomas, lymphomas, soft tissue sarcomas, germ-cell and CNS tumours. Simultaneously, , survival of these patients increased substantially over the 3 decades studied, reaching 5-year actuarial survival of 75% for children in western Europe and 64% in eastern Europe; with similar findings for adolescents.

Dr Steliarova-Foucher comments: "Our results are clear evidence of an increase of cancer incidence in childhood and adolescence during the past decades, and of an acceleration of this trend. Geographical and temporal patterns suggest areas for further study into causes of these cancers, as well as provide an indicator of progress of public-health policy in Europe."

In an accompanying commentary (p 2074), Catherine Cole (Princess Margaret Hospital for Children, Perth, Australia) states: "Worldwide, most children with cancer live in developing countries. Despite 80% survival rates in the west, most children with cancer in developing countries will die for lack of medical care.

Nah- it's not considered a bad temper when you're fighting for someone's life. Sorry.

http://www.chem-tox.com/cancerchildren/#NYTimes

New York Times Article
Discusses Rise in Child Cancers
SOURCE: NEW YORK TIMES, September 29, 1997

The September 29, 1997 New York Times article entitled "New Toxins Suspected as Cancer Rate Rises in Children" discussed the rises being seen in child cancers over the past 20 years. Specific quotes from the article include the following:

The rate of cancer among American children has been rising for decades. Although the reasons remain unclear, many experts suspect the increase may be partly the result of growing exposure to new chemicals in the environment.

* And today, according to experts in the field, a newborn child faces a risk of about 1 in 600 of contracting cancer by age 10.
* Depending on which types of cancer are counted, and in what age groups among the nation's youth, the rate of increase has amounted to nearly 1 percent a year, according to the National Cancer Institute. Over a few decades, that has meant striking double-digit increases.
* "I had not realized that the numbers were going up that way," said Karen Florini, a lawyer specializing in health issues at the Environmental Defense Fund. "I think it indicates a very disturbing trend that we had better get to the bottom of."
* In the United States, cancer is diagnosed each year in an estimated 8,000 children below the age of 15. Cancer, although it kills fewer children than accidents do, is the most common form of fatal childhood disease, accounting for about 10 percent of all deaths in childhood.
* Acute lymphoblastic leukemia in boys and girls increased 27 percent between 1973 and 1990; since then, the rate in boys has declined, but it is still rising in girls. Brain cancer, or glioma, increased nearly 40 percent from 1973 to 1994. These two forms of cancer account for most of the disease in children.
* Although the causes are not known and are probably many, some experts say, toxins in the air, food, dust, soil and drinking water are prime suspects.
* "I'm talking about new research on air pollutants, water pollutants and pesticides and their effects on children," said Carol Browner, the administrator of the EPA, "and new testing guidelines that routinely incorporate children's issues into EPA's risk assessments. I'm talking about moving beyond the chemical-by-chemical approaches of the past, and instead looking at a child's total cumulative risk from all exposures to toxic chemicals."
* "The increases are too rapid to reflect genetic changes, and better diagnostic detection is not a likely explanation," said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician who directs the division of environmental medicine at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City and who is the senior adviser to a new office of children's health at the EPA "The strong probability exists that environmental factors are playing a role."
* In a study published in The American Journal of Public Health in February 1995, researchers suggested that "use of home pesticides may be associated with some types of childhood cancer."
* Another study, published in The Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology in 1993, found associations between brain cancer in Missouri children and the use of pesticides in homes and yards.

Article by John H. Cushman, Jr.
New York Times
September 29, 1997

What is violence, anyhow? Violence is all that harms others needlessly. Sometimes, violence helps people— but only in life/death situations.

It's time we called some of these murderers on their "special" brand of "gentle" violence.

Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, silently poisoning others, and themselves. All forms of highly destructive violence.

…or we could use one of ***their*** classic excuse; "It's God's will", or, "*hit happens", or " we all have to die of something".

All the while profiting from the misery of others and of their own children.

I think it's perfectly reasonable behavior.

And then they are the first to cry, "Abuser".

c_halasz :

How do your reconcile your support of Catholic homophobia with the observation that Pope Benedict is obviously gay?

Isn't there some degree of hypocrisy and denial in this whole Catholic outfit? I mean, is don't ask, don't tell make a gay man qualified to be Pope?

Isn't there alot about the Catholic that is truely twisted, contorted, and tormented? I mean, it is odd that this South Carolina Priest comes out against a black Presidential candidate? How conveeeeenient, that voting for a black man is a mortal sin.

What the priest should have said:

President-elect Obama rode to the Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!!

Please keep in mind that the fastest growing USA voting bloc is The 70+ million "mothers and fathers of aborted children" whose ranks grow by two million per year.

i.e. the Immoral Majority now rules the land and will do so in the foreseeable future. How very sad and disturbing!!!

The priest then should have given his parishioners a general absolution and moved on.

C Halasz - but who are you blaming for this rise in cancer among children? That part is completely unclear - the policy you spoke of did not come through on your link.

I think you need to be very clear about the object of your wrath - and who knows? Other folks might even agree with you.

I've had plenty of personal family experience with cancer - although very fortunately, not childhood cancer. This is a general topic that I'm pretty familiar with........

I will only answer you because you have addressed me directly. I find it offensive the way you speak of our Pope. I find it offensive the way you presume racism when character is in question.

It makes you a violent person that you presume upon others this way.

Persiflage— I do not need to find a scapegoat. I am not a lawyer nor am I a politician. I am merely a mother who has found that as a direct result of making healthy, educated choices for my own children, and being forced repeatedly throughout my life to defend these choices, I have been habitually placed by other women on some death squad firing line.

I speak of cultural forces, and gender roles as they pertain to faith. I do not need to prove myself, aside from telling you that being healthy has been impossible because of the elder women in my own life who would force me to live by their standards at all costs to the well being of myself and my loved ones. And I am not alone in my experiences. Many Gen-X moms are in the same boat, and all of us are at wit's end.

Faith is our only hope, and it is the source of my strength in persisting in all the good things in my life. I despise those who would color it with their personal shame.

Is it any surprise that some priest from the Rulers Of The Dark Age would declare that anyway other than his way is the wrong way? When are these dying dinosaurs going to shut up and stay inside their walled fortresses?

So Listen Up- You had your chance to rule. You tortured in the name of your god. You burned women at the stake in the name of god. You denied the existence of the sun centered solar system up until 1991 in the name of your god. You kept your population illiterate and in fear for hundreds of years in the name of god. Your idea of justice was GUILTY until proven innocent in the name of god. You massacred millions (including children) in the name of god. I can keep going but you'll never get it.

So for those of us who aren't impressed by your pointed phallic hats- Stay out of our government. This is a democracy whether you like it or not. Here the Majority rules. Here in America, we have spoken regarding the freedom of choice. Under our rule of law, you are lucky to have the right to be as stupid as you've been without anyone telling you how to conduct yourselves during your rituals of flesh and blood amid the smoking incense and oppressive music. Thankfully, we have REASON on our side. So please, the next time you need open heart surgery, a flu shot, or even the convenience of the Dry Cleaner who presses your frilly frocks... Thank the secular world.

I find this most amusing. Pope Benedict XVI was born on 16 April 1927! Perhaps it was ***YOU*** who tormented all those innocent natives and children!!! Maybe it was your "ilk" who infiltrated the church with this dire insanity. Only people totally incapable of rational thought as to poison their ***own*** grandchildren with cumulative carcinogens would be capable of such insanity.

And do not think to align yourselves with the general populace. I have found them to be sheepish, but not reserved in their contempt for hatemongers and murderesses.

C Halasz - I appreciate your personal response, but the details of your own situation remain unclear, although you are obviously responding from deep personal feelings and experience.

I think you need to provide much more detail about your own situation and how it applies to what you've posted. What are you and other generation X moms dealing with? I don't know.

At least we're glad to know that you're not a 250 pound wrestlemania fan with a chip on your shoulder!

I do have a daughter (and breast cancer survivor) that meeets the Gen-X criteria - she is dealing with my teen-aged granddaughter, who has recently been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. No one is a stranger to the travail that you speak of.

On the other hand, I know something about the background of the present Pope, and his personal disdain for other religions ..... the fact he is calling for reconciliation among faiths is somewhat ironic - he is no John XXIII, in other words.

The fact that he follows John Paul II probably tempers his own approach to Church matters. And let's not return to the Pope of my own youth, Pious XII.

His (passive) history with the persecution and genocide of Jews during the Shoah (Holocaust) is an eternal black mark on the Church.

The problem with faith is that the faithful are following the words, interpretations, rules, and teachings of highly imperfect people. This can't help but come through with whatever 'truth' they happen to be preaching at any given moment.

This relative state of religion during any given generation, or any moment in time, is no differnet than any other aspect of life. It either changes with the times, or it fades away as a relic of the past.

Your Church is confronting such a moment in time.

Persiflage— I [respectfully] decline your invitation to submit further details of my personal life, if only because you are clearly unable to express a respectful rapport towards those with whom you philosophically disagree, and incline to use others' personal history unfairly against them as weapons. Show me a man whose youth is free of folly and I'll show you an aborted fetus.

It suffices to say that my persecutors are all of the "Boomer" persuasion, and female, and of ***all** faiths and races. That they have pushed out the faithful of each of their respective communities to the fringe, and painted them to be "mentally ill" in some attempt to avenge injustices perpetrated largely by our ancestors, and others who would condone such insanity.

The only thing that connects these bigots is their unquestioning approach to mass-media culture, and their extreme levels of superficiality. And if they embrace cancer as an alternative to genocide and slavery, then they are no better than the people they feign to correct, and a real danger to those in their care.

I am a Protestant. However, I think that my Catholic brothers err when they make voting one's convictions a sin. There were many Christians who voted for another Christian (Obama) on election day. The good priest has already forgotten about the priest problem in the Catholic church. Pro life as some have adequately pointed out does not mean pro-abortion.

Catholics in Catholic-controlled countries have murdered Protestant missionaries and lay workers in the past without any apparent regard for pro-life issues.

The pro-life issue is much more complicated than one of a black-and-white rationale.

To deny that there are times when abortions may be appropriate is to deny a woman a safe remedy for such a time. The decision regarding abortion should always be between the woman and God. My Bible is not totally clear on the issue of abortion. It does say that there is a time to kill and a time to heal. God did cause many pregnant women to be killed.

We need to move onward in Christian love and undertstanding.

http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jul1981/v38-2-article4.htm

The General Allotment Act in 1887 spoke characteristically of the priority of building mission schools on Indian lands "to civilize and Christianize the Indians." By the mid-1900s, Indian beliefs and traditions were more fully appreciated. Yet the First Amendment protection of religious liberty did not often apply to citizens whose pews were rock and dirt, whose sanctuary stretched from horizon to horizon, whose sacred objects sometimes included illegal substances and feathers of endangered species, and whose spiritual havens sometimes sat on top of untapped energy resources. Compounding these difficulties have been widespread fears that many of the old ways and insights were being lost as the elders died and young people became dispirited or disinterested and drifted away.

With the new law, federal agencies are to "protect and preserve" the rights of Indians, Eskimos, Aleuts, and native Hawaiians to exercise their traditional religions. Native Americans are to be granted, among other things, access to sacred sites on federal lands, use and possession of sacred objects from nature, and other freedoms to perform ceremonial rites.

"By itself, the law (Public Law 95-341) doesn't have a lot of teeth," argued attorney Kurt V. Blue Dog, codirector of the Native American Rights Fund in Boulder, Colo. "But it sets the tone for the federal government, and that's probably the most important thing it does," the 30-year-old Sioux said.

In early 1981, a concern was whether traditional Indian burial grounds, sacred areas to Native Americans, would be exempted from the freedoms given to archeologists in the Archeological Resources Protection Act, which passed Congress in 1979. Public hearings were held in 1981 on proposed regulations for the act, now termed Public Law 96-95.

Show me how the nice little ladies in t.v. land have addressed this problem to any degree of satisfaction since they came to power. Or is it sufficient that they wear cheap dream-catcher knock-off earrings and pat themselves on the back for their love of all things "cultural".

To this day, marijuana prohibition laws are enforced because of these women who drink and take prescription pills that numb them while their husbands rape their children in the next room.

When do they return to Earth with the rest of us and do penance for their sins?

EarlC— Clearly, you misunderstand the nature of this Priest's _very valid_ conviction in this key issue. He speaks of the fallacy in religion when followers are held culpable for the mistakes of their leaders. It is a very timely and respectful point he is making and he deserves commendation for taking this risk and speaking of leadership culture rather than taking the easy way out and scapegoating the innocents who are misled by poor policy and irresponsible role models.

If B.O. errs in judgment, and this causes policy to spread which exacerbates the problems we face— not in teenage BEHAVIOR, but in FAMILY CULTURE, which is the precedent of all thought, much less action, then we must realize that he will influence policy in this same direction, and that this will impact negatively in CULTURAL issues.

This is s priest who took a risk to say something of meaning rather than pandering to those in his parish who pay their dues. It is a commendable act, and I am proud of him for doing so; for taking this risk to do what's RIGHT, rather than what is easy.

Rev. Waters:
This puts me in mind of the time during Vatican II when The Church assembled a varied and strong committee of members, both religious and lay people, to study the question of contraception and the pill.
They submitted their report and recommended that Catholics be allowed to control conception by means of the pill as a form of responsibility for their family as a whole and in responsibility for not only their children's physical birth, as well as provision for their education and development.
After the report was submitted to the Pope, Paul VI (who replaced John XXIII, when he died), a few baracled old Curia veterans told the Pope, he couldn't approve this report.
He might endanger his standing as the final authority in the Church on matters of faith and morals; he might even imperil belief in papal infallibility (horror of horrors) and diminish control of the Papacy within the Church.
So, Pope Paul VI caved in and refused to accept the study, although he had been open to it before he was confronted by the Curia conservatives.
Now, we find out that a 1976 study was done concerning the ordination of women, with the same result.
Yet the Church refuses to take pro-active measures regarding pedophilia and even provides some offenders with sanctuary, overseas, if necessary.
Now, even our political right to vote is being attacked, using the Eucharist as a club and excommunication as a threat.
But don’t anyone DARE touch their US tax-exempt status, you understand!
Tax-exemption by churches is a privilege, not a right, in this country and it is premised on the condition that the churches remain apolitical and stay out of that arena.
This situation in the Church is truly sad.
And I'm a life-long Catholic.

C Halasz - well, your anger is clear enough, but all else is hyperbole tinged with paranoia....you still haven't clearly stated why children with cancer aren't getting the best of treatment, or who the responsible parties are.

Or if you have such a personal history yourself, which would be a terrible thing, if true.

You haven't made your case - clarity is not part of your posts, so in the meantime, you seem hostile and at the same time, suffering from mysterious offenses.

Since nobody knows anybody from Adam on these threads, why all the secretiveness? What I see on these threads very often is posters holding conversations with themselves, rather than with other posters. Communication is a two-way street.

__________________

On this last post of yours, the mystery only deepens - last night on Bill Moyers we see that indian reservations are not subject to the same laws as the rest of the country - typically crimes committed on reservations are the sole domain of either the tribal council and tribal law enforcement, or the federal government - local law enforcement is moot. Serious crimes go unprosecuted because of the complexity of these laws.....and the fact that the FBI and US Attorney's Office fail to investigate and prosecute guilty parties for various reasons.

Are you advocating the legalization of marijuana? Actually, that would be pretty cool, given the other stuff that you've written......

Please understand, your posts really don't make alot of (coherent) sense, but your intelligence and thoughtfulness do show through.

PS. It is not a parish priest's role to determine the commission of sin ex parte, whether venial or mortal (and especially mortal sin).

This priest has overstepped his authority big time - and has actually brought politics into the pulpit, thereby threatening the tax exempt status of that church. He won't be beaten with a cane, but I guarantee you he will be admonished for his
rashness.

The priest is correct and he is pointing out Catholic doctrine.

To vote for someone who supports such a great evil such as Obama does, joins you to that evil. There is nothing new to this. Unfortunately, too many Catholics and others don't like being told that their votes have consequences. Boo-hoo.

'MikeL4 writes
'his priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil'

Obama's position is to reduce abortions. The 'priest' in question is rather ignorant, and probably a lying partisan hack. As for you, you've proven countless times you don't know what you're talking about.

Persiflage— Your frustration is painfully evident, as is your own anger, which appears to be unsubstantiated. I do not have cancer, nor has anybody close to me ever had cancer, because we have cultural knowledge passed down for many generations which has yet to be extinguished by this scourge of pseudo-intellectuals who argue endlessly because they are unable due to deep-seated issues to separate their emotional lives from political matters, and are always looking to win, or blame, rather than finding effective resolution because they hide from their own [pronounced] discontent and shame.

This is not to say nobody is to blame for the cancer rates, but rather, this underlines a priest's conviction to step out of an established hierarchy in order to make a statement that substantiates my position, and that of many others who are unable to do so because of constraints placed on him by laws that provide escape for abusive people by the very same means you attempt to employ in your [transparent] efforts here to lure me into a mire of "fact" finding and refutation, so you can attack the character of anyone who does not condone child abuse and the economic oppression of minorities under the guise of being "informed".

I shall continue to express myself without providing you with a tit-for-tat expose of [seemingly] refutable facts, but merely speak from my personal experience, because in the end, it's all any of us take to sleep at night. In the end, it's what defines our inner landscapes, after all the [whipped and oppressed] bureaucrats have done with their hemorrhoid-induced, suffocated reasoning and conjecture which serves only to further encroach on our collective liberties each year.

If you feel that the Church ought not pay taxes, then I assure you that the Synagogues shall not pay them either, and if this is an issue for you, then so be it. I feel your behavior is shameful.

Father Newman is wrong. In fact, all religions in the World have a wrong concept of faith. Christians in particular are in a wrong way. It is just because all of them are apostolic and not real Christian. Jesus tought us to love God, the Great Criator at first and our like ones secondly. This is a big commandment that Christian religion with no exception have no backgroud to do so. Then, they deviate or go astray from what Jesus taught and start to create rules, divisions and burdens made up of hypocrisy that conceal from us the real rule that saves. Also, the teaching of Jesus do not abide on a particular religion. Any person, anywhere, may walk on Jesus steps even not attending a church or practcing a specific religion. The teaching of Jesus sprouts from from the heart of a person and not from what someone thinks it is right or wrong and try to interfere in ones affair. Jesus called people like this of "painted sepulchers", beautiful on the outside but empty or full of bed smell in the inside. You may find these people everywhere, even in Vatican. Miguel - Campinas - Sao Paulo - Brazil - mmiguel@eiol.com.br - www.eiol.com.br

C Halasz - well, salude to one of the stranger coversations I've had recently. But here's what you seem to be saying - you don't support the pro-choice position, and you agree the Catholics that voted for Obama need to be deprived of the sacraments i.e communion - in other words, punished for departing from the official Church position on abortion - by proxy (of their voting preference).

But here's the thing - the Church is overstepping it's boundaries by trying to influence voting preferences through threats, and the American Bishops have also made their position in this matter very clear....consequently, the Church is jeopardizing it's tax exempt status by entering actively into the political arena.

So be it - I sincerely hope that creates a huge problem for the Catholic Church because they've asked for it. And I see that you agree with 'going out on a limb' for your beliefs - so let the Church pay the price and forego their tax status. I will support that legislation.

I haven't heard anything whatsoever from the Jewish community on this matter, have you? I wonder why you mention it. As for me, I'm a former Catholic....

I'm neither frustrated or angry - why in the world would I be? You're projection of your own disposition is telling, if I may say so.

And the relationship that you allude to between cancer rates and what Frater Newman has to say about communion and Obama voters completely eludes me.

Are you sure you're alright??

PS. I'm glad that neither you nor your family members have ever actually had cancer - you don't want it, believe me. It will radically change your point of view on alot of things. That I guarantee.

Persiflage— your arguments would hold a lot more water without the ever present peppering of [intensely vitriolic and unsubstantiated] personal attacks.

If the Catholic Church is also under attack, then with it goes ***all*** organized religious entities. I hope you can handle the backlash. LOL! I, for one, will relish the show.

Furthermore, I, with my lowly, disjointed thoughts and bizarre allusions that are so discredited by the fact-hounds of "higher learning", have been instrumental in the changing of legislation in the past— and rules, while essential to the proper functioning of any society, are merely functional.

If my posts make no sense to you, or are "paranoid" or "strange", then do us both a favor and go waste another person's time. O.K.? :) Thanks. It's been interesting.

C Halasz - for your review, this is what you say:

'Persiflage— Your frustration is painfully evident, as is your own anger, which appears to be unsubstantiated. I do not have cancer, nor has anybody close to me ever had cancer, because we have cultural knowledge passed down for many generations which has yet to be extinguished by this scourge of pseudo-intellectuals who argue endlessly because they are unable due to deep-seated issues to separate their emotional lives from political matters, and are always looking to win, or blame, rather than finding effective resolution because they hide from their own [pronounced] discontent and shame.

This is not to say nobody is to blame for the cancer rates, but rather, this underlines a priest's conviction to step out of an established hierarchy in order to make a statement that substantiates my position, and that of many others who are unable to do so because of constraints placed on him by laws that provide escape for abusive people by the very same means you attempt to employ in your [transparent] efforts here to lure me into a mire of "fact" finding and refutation, so you can attack the character of anyone who does not condone child abuse and the economic oppression of minorities under the guise of being "informed".

I shall continue to express myself without providing you with a tit-for-tat expose of [seemingly] refutable facts, but merely speak from my personal experience, because in the end, it's all any of us take to sleep at night. In the end, it's what defines our inner landscapes, after all the [whipped and oppressed] bureaucrats have done with their hemorrhoid-induced, suffocated reasoning and conjecture which serves only to further encroach on our collective liberties each year.

If you feel that the Church ought not pay taxes, then I assure you that the Synagogues shall not pay them either, and if this is an issue for you, then so be it. I feel your behavior is shameful.'

fini......
__________________

And I say - what?? The above is what is referred to as 'word salad'. Nothing hangs together, semantically speaking. Your word usage is novel and intriguing, however.

Ah well, maybe it's just me.

Au Revoir........

:'-)

JAYPEM:
Like you, I am also a "a pro-life Catholic on abortion, who also opposes the war in Iraq, the death penalty, and euthanasia".
We just have to face it: our Church has lost its way.
And it has lost its moral authority in the world, sad to say.
I have prayed over this decision and I am convinced that Barack Obama was sent by God to save this nation, if only we can overcome our prejudices against race and political partisanship, both of which are sins which do a lot of damage to our human community.
There are a few priests and a few bishops who are radical and they give scandal to the good name of the Church with their actions, for which I have deep regret.
But it doesn't bother me a bit.
My bishop told me to balance the damage.
How many people are damaged by abortion, versus how many people would be damaged by other actions of the government in many areas?
Lack of health insurance kills.
Lack of income to live a simple, plain but human lifestyle.
(But their advocacy of laissez-faire economics precludes them from supporting any programs which would help people.)
We are free to make the best decision for the sake of our country.

South Carolina: Priest Is Rebuked

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 15, 2008
A Roman Catholic priest should not have told parishioners who voted for President-elect Barack Obama to refrain from taking Holy Communion because of support of abortion, the church’s senior officer in the state said. Earlier this week, the Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter to parishioners at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville that they were putting their souls at risk if they took Holy Communion without first doing penance for voting for Mr. Obama. But Msgr. Martin T. Laughlin, administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, said, “If a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.”

and this rebuke may not mean anything if this president elect doesn't survive a meeting with any of the people (and their children) who already have shown their true colors of ignorance, separatism, bigotry, and racism found in this article today:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iEyLuiVkdd-f1RM5wnoR0kF4WbvgD94FNVC00

Teach....your children well...CSNY

Walking and moccasins come to mind… *rolleyes*

The lives of almost fifty million unborn have been ended by legal but immoral abortion. The Bishops asked for proportionality. What can compare in this world to the death of fifty million human beings? Judy in Texas cites the lack of insurance, jobs, etc. How does this compare with the death of fifty million. Besides, there is no guarantee that Obama's policy's will improve the economy, or give the uninsured medical insurance. However it is guaranteed that abortion kills the unborn. Even before this man is sworn in he's talking about forcing us to pay for abortions overseas. Can any Catholic explain to me what is equivalent to the lives of fifty million of the unborn?

How long will it be before we realize that Obama's fake promise to reduce abortions was a lie? He's already working to INCREASE abortions even before he's sworn in. As far as receiving communion, you have to be aware that what you're doing is a sin. The Catholics who voted for Obama are protected by their own willful ignorance. They may have another sin on their conscience and that is to neglect to develop their conscience. Also note that it is lapsed Catholics who voted for Obama. Church going Catholics did not.

Now, now there. We don't want anything to catch fire, you hear? LOL!

I mean— the imagery alone could cause nightmares in the more susceptible…

I was raised Catholic and couldn't get away from the Church fast enough when I was a young man. They've given me no reason to believe my decision was a mistake yet.
According to Rev. Jay Scott Newman's reasoning, wouldn't voting for McCain, who supported a needless war in Iraq which has killed or maimed hundreds of thousands of people also be a mortal sin?
As for women serving as priests, it's past time the Catholic Church dropped their misogyny.

Practicing Catholics are people who believed in the literal truth of Grimm's Fairy Tales as children.

It just shows that these priests are not really priest but the worst con men parading as priests. His parishnors should really question whether this man has a right to be priest or is he just being a parasite and leech on the parishnors?

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)
The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,388 combat 805 non-combat) and 88,851 – 96,976
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

Continued if needed.

You say sexixm and racism is a sin, and that discrimination is wrong--this all in the same breath that you are critizing a man who calls supporting someone who promotes the killing of innocent unborn babies a sin. Get a grip. Any Christian who supports people who believe in killing innocent babies is departing Christian principles and may be asking for a millstone around the neck. Like it or not, it may seem a little strong to lefties who promote anything unprincipled, but supporting those who promote evil is evil as well.

Give this priest a break - he is on God's side and those who disagree with him are not, he knows God's will and those who disagree do not, and he would use the power of government to advance his understanding of God's kingdom. It's not easy being morally superior and wiser than everyone who doesn't see things your way.

"It is necessary for salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff." - Pope Boniface VII.

The priest disagrees with a specific point of Catholic Church policy and wants to reform the church and change the policy. I think the church is within it's rights to direct him to be silent on this point and if he doesn't they can certainly defrock him. But kicking him out of the church and excommunicating him (condemning him to an afterlife in hell) because he thinks women should be priests cannot be justified when the position that women shouldn't be priests isn't supported in scripture. That's absurd on it's face.

The abortion issue is totally different, but I would argue that it's simpler than it seems. One's position on abortion should be based on the answer to one question and one question only: "When does life begin?" The Bible is silent on this point and there is no scientific proof or general agreement within our society on that point. The Catholic Church currently says that life begins at conception (historically this was not the Catholic position) and that all abortion is immoral. If life truly does begin at conception, then abortion should be banned--100%--since the right to life is the preeminent right in our culture. However, I don't know when life begins and I don't think Catholics do either. Society clearly has an interest in protecting unborn life and I believe partial birth abortion is murder and should be banned. And I think late-term abortion limits are something everyone can agree on since it's clear that a 7 or 8 month old fetus is an independent life. But what about 4 months? What about 2 weeks? I simply don't know. And I don't think Catholics really know either. So in my view, imposing a 100% abortion ban on citizens who don't believe that life begins at conception (which is just as reasonable a position as saying it does begin at conception) would be inappropriate given our secular, non-theocratic government.

Since when did pro-choice become synonymous with pro-abortion? Do those who don't vote for Obama believe that because they are *somehow* saving innocent lives, they are morally superior for upholding Christian values? That a single issue should decide who will be next leader of the free world? When has anything ever been so black and white and why must judgment be so blind?
If life starts at the moment of conception, then it sure doesn’t end after a baby is born. That’s why it’s important to TRY to make children brought into this world wanted children – especially those who are already living, breathing and suffering. That’s why sex-education is so important – because it CAN help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and therefore, the number of abortions, whether they are legal or illegal. THAT’S what Obama is about. Not necessarily just because he believes that it’s a constitutional right (though that’s pretty important too). He, like McCain, believes in the social welfare of a people. While it's noble to protect innocent lives, is it not also noble to want to ensure the quality of the innocent lives, so that they may be brought into this world to be cherished rather than traumatized?

Being moral isn’t just about deciding for another woman whether she is or isn’t capable of having a baby then raising it or giving it up for adoption. If pro-life simply implies advocating “not-for-death” then it shouldn't just apply to an embryo. If people care so much about unborn children that they are willing to base their vote off of that one issue, then they should be equally concerned for the plenty of starving, sick, abused and dying ones in this world already.

Also, gender equality is important.

so what if i voted for him despite of his views on abortion and not because of them?

i could still confess this mortal sin, if that's what it is, but what if i don't think it IS a sin?

even if i accept that it is a sin (not in my heart but if it came from the infallible Pope), should i or CAN i confess it if i'm not actually sorry for it?

should i have voted against my conscience to follow the letter of Catholic law (if that law can actually rightfully dictate voting behavior)?

if i voted for mccain but still hoped that obama would win, would that still have been a sin?

do we Catholics even believe in Free Will anymore?

this is why you can't start punishing people for their opinions and thoughts. yes voting is an action (out of necessity) but it is really just an expression of opinion and thought much the same way speaking is. is it a mortal sin to hold opinions that are against the teachings of the church?

MarkFoxenberg asks for "proportionality":
"The lives of almost fifty million unborn have been ended by legal but immoral abortion. The Bishops asked for proportionality. What can compare in this world to the death of fifty million human beings?"

How about this: if you believe with the church in a literally burning hell for "sinners," then at very least those fifty million "human beings" are sinless and going straight into the eternal presence of god. By contrast, allowing zygotes to develop into fetuses and eventually being born as real human beings ASSURES that a good proportion will end up in HELL, since they're obviously going to sin, and we're taught that far more sinners are going to be condemned than are saved ("narrow is the way. . ."). If abortion equals the destruction of "human beings" (your word, not mine), then we're doing those human souls a great benefit by assuring their eternal salvation. Facetious? Perhaps, but no more so than believing that an hours-old zygote is a full human being with all the attendant constitutional and moral rights.

Let's all just ask Nancy Pelosi. She's a self avowed practicing Catholic. According to her the Church is still struggling with their position on abortion after 2000 years of study and debate. So, as she tells it, she can't be expected to reconcile such a tough issue in her own mind. That part I get.

Obama Derangement Syndrome in full effect!

Religion has no place in politics or governing laws! American's childish mythological beliefs should not be pushed onto the rest of us sensible citizens. We are the ones who keep this country level headed and realistic, if you religous fanatics were left in charge we would all be hypocrites! FREEDOM OF RELIGION OR FREEDOM FROM RELIGION MY CHOICE!

If the catholic church and the pack of pedolphiles feel so strongly about not voting for politicians who support abortion, they should give up their tax-exempt status and pursue their political agenda. I am sick of my tax dollars supporting the most corrupt chuch in history. The less they pay in taxes, the more we pay.

If I was catholic and a priest refused to give me communion, I would launch a law suit. Why doesn't the ACLU look into this? I'd love to waste another couple million dollars in legal fees of those sanctimonious hypocrits.

The organization whose leader is an old nazi sulking around in a dress and pointy hat has long since lost any and all relevance to civilized society. I mean seriously, does anyone with a brain really give a crap what the catholic church says or does? Take a look around all those empty pews on Sunday morning and tell me they matter.

Be gone.

No religious institution, catholic, protestant, jewish, muzlum and right on down to the frog worshippers, should never had tax exempt status in the first place.

They should be taxed at the highest corporate rate allowed, same as any other business because that's all they are.

This priest did well to remind his congregation that a vote for a pro-abortion politician such as Obama, who said he would sign the federal "Freedom of Choice Act" if it were passed by Congress, is cooperation with material evil and a sin.

This is not new. Other "Catholic" politicians who vote for Abortion, Biden and Pelosi, will soon find out whether the Church will finally hold them accountable. I truly hope so.

Well, I'm just thankful to be an atheist!

This is nothing short of ridiculous...........

"It is necessary for salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff." - Pope Boniface VII.

It seems this priest did not listen. The Pope said you can vote for pro-choice candidates, under certain circumstances:

A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia.

When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)

Here's an interesting article "Why so many pro-life Catholics backed Obama".
http://www.suntimes.com/news/greeley/1259897,CST-EDT-greel05.article

Church leaders like this priest, the catholic laws against birth control which guarantee unwanted pregnancies, and the refusal to accept women into the priesthood are the major reasons I am no longer Catholic.

Barack Obama was and is the most Christian candidate we had in the election.

His attitudes and philosophies are "Christian", and follow the teachings of Jesus in a sincere way, rather than a hypocritical way.

I would walk out of a church where the priest said such a thing on the pulpit.

And, I would shout as I was leaving:

Hey, Father,
You would sacrifice the needs of the poor, the elderly, the suffering, and the victims of senseless wars, for the needs of those yet unborn?

You would refuse "Holy Communion"
to those who practice the golden rule and
care for and about their brothers and sisters?

You are the definition of a "hypocrit."

Look. People who think like this Father Newman are so far out of the mainstream of modern thinking should not even be granted access to a forum dedicated to exploring the real challenges of faith, belief or political persuasion. Newman just sounds like so many of those right wing scolds on talk radio who are simply lashing out in anger just to blow off the steam and anger of losing an election.

I have encountered people like this even in my own family who have become so heavily invested emotionally in their belief system that it blinds them to any sort of enlightened discussion. They cannot be argued with on a serious level because they begin with a premise that all who do not subscribe to their narrow, intolerant, inflexible view of the world are steeped in evil and sinfulness.

Why not just ignore them? They have nothing of any constructive benefit to add to any discussion.

Why is the RCC still allowed to benefit from tax exempt status?

Uh, tell me again why we care what is said by people who predict the future by reading sheep intestines.

People with any sense should know enough to disregard grown men who play dress-up and talk to invisible giants that live in the sky. They are imposters.

Zeus is the True God. I know because he talks to me. All other gods are cheap frauds. You must respect what I say because I am a person of Faith. As a Person of Faith I have been declared exempt from the Adherance to Reality Clause of Rational Thought. Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah.

This article just shows how ridiculous religion and religious views have become in the U.S. For a country that claims separation of church and state there seems to be far to much interference from the church in the affairs of the state. Imagine for a moment that a Muslim cleric had called for a fatwa against anyone that had voted for Obama...people would be referring to a terrorist conspiracy against freedom and democracy...but because it is a catholic priest he's given the benefit of the doubt.
I say it is time for religion to be divorced from politics...and good riddance..
As for the catholic congregation in that parish in South Carolina...get rid of the priest!

"They should be taxed at the highest corporate rate allowed, same as any other business because that's all they are."

You may have something there. Especially since so many churches have gotten into other businesses. It's not just church basement bake sales anymore. It's huge for-profit daycare,adoption agencies, property development, investing in real estate and other ventures, etc.

Once they do that they really should be taxed. Why? Because it's unfair to their competition, who are fully taxed, in part to pay the costs of churches (church properties use fire, water, road infrastructure, etc., yet they pay nothing for it).

It's not a matter of opinion. None of the issues raised here are matters of opinion.

Christianity is what theologians call a "revealed religion". That's a religion that claims to have been revealed by its God to human beings. You can accept that or not, but those are the terms on which the religion presents itself.

That being the case, no human agency can presume to add, subtract, or change any Christian doctrine. Doing that is called "heresy", from the Greek meaning "to pick and choose".

It surprises some people, especially Americans raised in a largely Protestant culture, that the Catholic Church has never added, subtracted, or changed a teaching. The record in manuscript and in print is unanswerable: but Protestantism is heresy, picking, choosing, and revising what Christ taught.

And as Christianity is a revealed religion there is no doubt about what it teaches and what it does not teach. God would not bother to reveal it and leave it in doubt.

So you can take it all or leave it all, but you can't change it to fit your own opinions. The priests are right that by voting for a pro-abortion candidate you do excommunicate yourself; you have chosen not to learn the Church's teachings, not to grow in understanding and see why they're right, but to dismiss Christ's teachings and go with your own opinion.

Similarly, there simply is no such thing as an ordination for a woman. The sacrament of Holy Orders for women does not exist in the Church. So if you mount such an exhibition you are not Catholic. That's all that there is to it.

If you don't "agree" with the Church, then, leave it--you have already excommunicated yourself anyway. Why anybody would object to that I can't see--you clearly don't want to be a Catholic Christian; you have taken to yourself more authority than Christ himself. So what's the big deal? There is no controversy here. You're either in, or you're out. Take it or leave it.

Taking it does require lifelong learning about it, and taking up your cross and following Christ, growing every day to fulfill his teachings--to fulfill the full potential of your human nature. Try it!

"How many times will we condem the whole Catholic Church and all of it'e faithful followers for the SINS of evil men and those that turned a blind eye toward them."

Um, it wasn't just a couple of priests.

It was the Church hierarchy that knew about it and did nothing. Even worse, they often facilitated it, transferring a known pedophile to a new parish once they started getting complaints.

And it was systemic.

Of course not every priest or every Catholic was involved.

But the church hierarcy most certainly was. For decades.

Catholics should just make their own communion hosts. It's only flour and water.

What gets me is how nobody seems to talk about the sexual abusers in the school system, or in the Jewish faith. They are throughout society, and an embarrassment to all of us.

But why do people who would go against Church doctrines want to **use** the Church, then, if they feel it is beyond redemption? It's a valid question.

My guess is economic motives.

By the way, for those of you defending the Catholic politics and dogma, has anyone forgotten the Inquisition?...Interestingly enough, there doesn't seem to be condemnation of Obama in European, Catholic countries...could this be a"made in America" phenomenon only? How presumptuous we've become....

I think it is counterproductive to alienate the Church from people in power that can enact legistlation making easier for people to have children (Ex. covering healthcare costs). Working together will get more done socially for the benefit of the people when the church works hand in hand with the government. Job training programs, food stamp dispersal etc. can all be done by these organizations and the government should not hold religious belief (gays adopting) against organizations providing social service.

Who wants to bet this priest is hiding his own sex scandals? Anyone ever hear of Father James Burtchaell of Notre Dame? Burtchaell was a strident condemner of all women who used birth control. Then his male molestation victims found the courage to condemn him and send him to jail. He's never been excommunicated and is almost back in business with limited duties in Phoenix.

Obama represents a "change" from white protestant values, so even countries that are normally racist against Blacks are embracing him as a lesser evil. He's like a chocolate ice-cream cone being presented in a town that only got vanilla for three decades. That's all there is to it. Sooner or later, they'll also get sick of chocolate.

We cannot underestimate the degree to which people have been given a superficial view of the U.S. on account of the shallow nature of the most potent propaganda we have distributed for economic purposes. We made shallow people because this was what profited us, and now we have to reckon with that.

This is what the U.S. has represented on the World stage for decades: Protestant values. Largely through media influence, which is pervasive. Obama also has the luxury of coming off all "spiritual" in contrast. LOL!

Do you know how to tell a hip person from a freak? Burn frankincense and Myrrh before they come into your house, and see if they tell people you've been smoking "pot"! ROTFL!

***Ooops!*** I am serious again. This is a ***serious*** conversation.

Am I the only woman here who is frightened of Maria Shriver? :D *shudder*

KEVINORLINJOHNSON sez:

'It surprises some people, especially Americans raised in a largely Protestant culture, that the Catholic Church has never added, subtracted, or changed a teaching. The record in manuscript and in print is unanswerable: but Protestantism is heresy, picking, choosing, and revising what Christ taught'.

__________________

And I feel compelled to add this:

Kevin, the Church has been adding doctrinal 'revelations' allegedly inspired by the Holy Spirit for many centuries, up to and including modern times e.g. The Infallibility of the Pope (in matters ex cathedra) and lastly and most recently, the bodily Assumption of Mary into heaven. The doctrine of the Trinity only dates back to the 5th century C.E. when it replaced the prevailing Arian view.

Such additions are in fact alterations to the faith, and seem to be (suspiciously) inspired by humans, after all. The Church has thus been building an internally consistent doctrinal coda since the early Church Councils began to convene.

'Separating the wheat from the chaff', we might say. On the other hand, one man's chaff is another man's wheat - but whoever is in charge gets to make the rules, beginning with early Church Father Irenaeus. He did indeed set the tone for what was to be considered 'revealed' truth and what was considered 'heresy' and apostasy.

Where humans are concerned, 'revealed' truth seems to be a fairly relative and flexible concept, after all.

How to come off spiritual:

1) Furrow your brow.
2) Lower your voice to a tenor pitch.
3) Say "Gimme some change *itch".

How far does he want his flock to take their faith. I'd bet most practice some form of non-creative intercourse, and the Bible is interpretive. Who bathes in flowing rivers waters to cure infections? Who brings two doves, one for sacrifice, one for slaughter to the tent of the elder when a woman menstruates? Deuteronomy anyone? The Vatican has said evolution and theology can co-exist, so much for 7 days on earth for creation. A modern church will realize gays raise over a million children in our country and should not be punished for the "sins" of the parents. A modern church will not hemmorrage flock like the subject's.

The two most recent topics are a strong indication of what is wrong with the RC church. To deny communion because of how one voted is reprehensible and un Christ-like--remember Christ spoke of the separation of church and state--render unto Caesar....To deny the ordination of women in this day and age is simply stupid and even more so without a basis in Christ's teaching. Why do we have these apparent anomalies? It is because mortals in the clergy place themselves above Christ in their pompous and moralistic posturing. The clergy in most cases becomes the standard bearer of the status quo and supports those in power. Why?? because the clergy lives well and wants to continue to do so. Many European Catholics are anti-clerics because of the long-standing ties of the clergy with the royalty and against the common man and democracy. Look at the church today--it spent years and a small fortune trying to deny that priests were molesting young men and women. Why?? not to follow the teachings of Christ but to avoid criminal and civil liability of the priestly class, and to protect the material wealth of the church. The whole pro-life argument cast solely in pro-choice/anti-choice terms is nonsense. If the church were pro-life, why is it saying it is a sin to vote for the candidate that wants to end a war and save lives, and which helps the candidate who wants to continue the war and loss of life? I'll take a priest like Fr. Bourgeois over Fr. Newman any day--one is making a real effort to follow Christ while the other is simply a buffoon (even if a well intended one).

And, no— this is not "ridiculous" Some of us can get into the hat thing. Some of us have style, and that's just something you'll have to live with! LOL!

So the question is: "Which man's invisible friend is the one true God?" And the answer is neither one. If either one is being guided by voices in his head, he's a schizophrenic. If, as I suspect, they don't hear any voices, then they are just ordinary humans pretending to know something about a speculative divinity in order to wield influence over the ignorant masses. They are both liars and neither one represents God or the truth.

The same is, unfortunately, true for ALL religionists. There's a lot of people pretending to hear and follow the "word of God" who are actually pursuing a political agenda aimed at maintaining the status quo and/or cheating people out of their money. Every organized religion is a political entity which uses donations from membership to influence legislation. As a result, every organized religion needs to be registered as a PAC, and should be taxed heavily.

People need to grow up and read a few science books. Religions are all fake. That guy threatening people with eternal damnation is just another jabbering ape who wants everyone else to do as he says and make his life comfortable. The same goes for the Pope and the entire Catholic church. All fakes. It doesn't matter if a lying con-man proclaims someone's excommunication or threatens everyone with the wrath of a fictional god. He doesn't have any more authority than any other person on Earth. Stop giving these charlatans money and they may have to start working for a living.

The Christians have done a good job in making abortion an emotional issue. Now lets see if they can do the same for covering all those that lack health insurance and begin work on saving real lives.

It seems about right.

A Catholic who was wilfully voted for a candidate who is beholding to and supportive of the country's abortion mills would probably be considered to be in a state of sin. A mitigating circumstance would be that they didn't see that the Vatican had declared the Democrats to be the party of death--it never made it into the WaPo.

As for Methodists serving communion to just about anyone with a pulse, we get into the old transsubstantiation and transsignification debate. In short Catholics believe it's the actual body and blood of Christ. Methodists and others say it signifies the body and blood.

As one of the responses to this post shows, the priest, in question, was not following approved guidelines in making his decision regarding communion for his parish members. The message about the Rev. Bourgeois is even more interesting, however, to me. I am currently a Roman Catholic living in the UK. Having attended the Easter Vigil one evening several years ago, we were home on Easter Sunday and happened to view Easter Sunday service at a Church of England cathedral on TV. For those who are not familiar with the C of E, their liturgy is very similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church. I still remember the sense of over-whelming pride and sense of "rightness," when I watched a female C of E priest consecrate the host. Tears filled my eyes, and I thought about the fact that I was almost 60 and had hoped to see this happen in my own Church. It won't now. Maybe it will happen for my daughter. If it does, will it even matter by then?

Good discussion.

And interesting timing.

I can tell you (with God as my witness!) that one of the big reasons I did not vote Republican, as I ususally vote, was because of all the innocents killed in Iraq by our country. Really. Hundreds of thousands killed, maimed .. torn from family because our country decided to invade their country, for reasons that turned out to be untrue .. and then screwed it up causing more misery. Killed non combatants. I know we didn't do it intentionally per se but we did intentionally invade a country and look what happened.

How could this escape the bishops? Are not Muslims human beings with a soul too? And there was McCain jokingly singing "Bomb Iran." This escaped the Bishops?

They're not for life, they're for newsclips and making something of themselves. That's a sin too in some camps.

Ever since getting caught with their hands in little boys pants (for decades!) the Church has become increasingly beligerant. Why? I guess it helps to distract from the cases that continue to come out on child abuse.

Boy, if we could elect our priests.

The Catholic's strict anti-abortion position didn't exist prior to Pope Pius XI’s 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii. Before this, there was debate on abortion. The Bible doesn’t condemn abortion and Church tradition rarely addresses it. Early church theologians generally allow abortion in the first 3 months and prior to quickening, when the soul supposedly entered the fetus. For a long time, the Vatican refused to issue a binding position.

Exodus 21 draws a clear demarcation between the killing of a person and the killing of a fetus. Exodus 21:12, for example, reads:

Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee.

But Exodus 21:22 reads:

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.

In other words: Killing a person outside of the womb warrants the death penalty or exile, but killing a fetus is punishable only by a fine--and that's in a circumstance where the killing of a fetus takes place against the woman's will. Exodus describes no penalty of any kind for women who choose to terminate their own pregnancies, nor does any other passage in the Bible.

So all of this absolutism with respect to abortion is an essentially modern invention and clearly an alteration of the traditional teachings of the church and a clear alteration of the teachings of the bible. Does that mean that the Catholic Church as a whole should be excommunicated for teaching heresy?

The fact is that all this talk about some pure "revealed word" crap is nonsense. The bible is a collection of works written by different human beings over hundreds of years. And the decision with respect to which books would be "in" and which would be "out" was made by humans--individuals and groups. And the translation of ancient texts, along with the associated interpretations of ancient words that could be taken different way, was done by a variety of humans--individuals and groups. And the decision about church orthodoxy (e.g., the belief in a trinity) was made over hundred of years, by humans, and it has changed many many times.

This pretentious claim that Catholics have to some pure religious belief and pure position on issues has no basis in truth. It's hubris to think that any one human or any group of humans have a direct line to God and with all of the answers to life's questions and mysteries nicely and neatly bundled so that one can be 100% confident in some set of beliefs. Anyone who doesn't question their own beliefs and the teachings of whatever religion they espouse is a fool--and subject to the same folly that resulted in Jonestown, Waco, etc.

Sometimes the Catholic church is wrong. Sometimes the Pope is wrong. They're just not willing to allow anyone to say it.

I always wondered how any religious leader could reconcile their passivity against killing of innocent people during wars and dying of children due to lack of health care, parental presence and hunger with their feverish support of the corrupt politicians and parties just because of their anti-abortion stand.

When will they reconcile the fact that abortion is the only one part of the whole truth for speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves? Just because some kids are born to this world with a tongue doesn't mean they have a voice.

In the mean time, even Vatican is going green; hence, polluting earth is a sin. Now we need to know the politicians' standing on environmental issues before voting.

It is best not to combine religion with politics - we may be committing never ending list of sins no matter how we vote....

"parishioners who voted for Barack Obama are not entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ through communion until they've done penance."

The key word here is "done penance." NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE is such penance either commanded, recommended or even suggested. This is yet another measure of control of the Catholic church over it's members.

Communion has NOTHING to do with whether or not a person is "entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ." This is NEVER a decision to made by ANY church, people. Christ offers His forgiveness to ANYONE who who will accept Him as their Savior, NO MATTER HOW THEY VOTE. Their vote will be governed by the kind of relationship they have with God...NOT by the will a vindictive church! IT'S A MUCH GREATER SIN SUBMITTING TO SUCH ABUSED AUTHORITY AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

ANY church which tells you you cannot go to Heaven unless you belong to that church reeks of pure arrogance...and Catholicism is infamous for that! You who have the faintest speck of faith, get away from that mess they CALL a church. You are NOT called to obey a power-hungry church; you're called to obey a loving God. Why do you think there have been so many problems with priests and sexual problems. God gave man the ability and DRIVE to have sex to populate the earth. The Catholic church claims that the pope is the successor to Peter (who did NOT belong to any predecessor to the Catholic church; in fact the Roman church persecuted him!), and that they do as Peter did. That's a LIE. Peter was MARRIED; Jesus healed his mother-in-law. However, the church says otherwise, and that priests CANNOT marry. This is totally contrary to God's Word. Do you REALLY want to belong to such a church? This is not the way God intended it to be. Remember that the Jewish leaders of Jesus day had made up many "laws" which Jesus intentionally broke to show their worthlessness and ungodliness, obeying instead for Commandments which God had given.

There are two extremes in so-called "Christian" churches: Catholicism and megachurches. Catholicism binds your hands...and very lives...to the point where you're afraid to believe the Bible when it's writings confliuct with the church's teachings. Then there's the latter, in which there are NO standards. You can act as ungodly as you wish and still be a "member in good standing." Somewhere in the middle of this mess is the Christian church, which realizes they are sinners in need of a Savior, who grants them the power and freedom to obey His law (the 10 Commandments), which, in turn, enhances their lives. They realize they cannot work their way to heaven or earn favor with God in obeying the law, but they can't help but respond to God's love and WISH to obey to honor Him.

It's no wonder there's so much confusion and hate geared to the so-called "Christian" churches. They arrogantly use the name Christian without even knowing what it means or what it entails.

ALSO: there is no such thing in the Bible as a "Mortal sin." SIN is sin...period - the transgression of the law as expressed in the 10 Commandments - NOT according to the dictates of a pope and his powermongers!

I could not vote for Obama for moral reasons, but if my church EVER dictated how I should vote, I would leave it and find a Godly church! The Roman forces which executed millions of "heretics" were run by none other than the Roman (Catholic) church (read your history books!!!)...the largest religio-policital power in the world. Now perhaps you can see the political power the church exerts at long last...the union of church and state, which the RC church has always been...and leave it!!

The priest is right on. Oh how we don't like to be told in our own self-serving justifications that we were not serving God.

We are put here on this earth to serve God's purposes not our own. Serving the culture of death that is Abortion in this country and those politicians who support it with their votes is immoral. The priest called those in his congregation who voted for pro-abortion politicans, such as Obama, out. God bless him for not letting them walk blindly to death.

Lets be Clear, Father Newman was overzealous in what he said and has view has been repudiated by his superiors at the Diocesean level. Priests, like anyone else can make mistakes in judgement. This was one of those cases.

Father Roy Bourgeois, is a different situation. He has clearly put himself in opposition to Church teachings. When the error was pointed out, instead of accepting it humbly, he instead publicly repudiated Church teaching. So he has decided that he can not live with the teaching of the church. The Church must therefore, disassociate itself with him through excommunication. To do otherwise would be to compromise the churches moral position.

The Catholic church's role in simply to help people get to heaven. It has a set of doctrines that were laid out by Jesus and communicated through the Apostles and their successors, the bishops, to facilitate that. The church has no right to compromise those doctrines, even if people like Father Bourgeois would like them to. If people don't understand and respect that, they are free to leave the church. Father Bourgeois has apparently decided to make that choice.

The arguments against the ordination of women are specious, particularly the following:

1. Jesus was a man. To argue, therefore, that women are not eligible for the priesthood is to commit the blasphemy of reducing the Divine Jesus to his genitalia.

2. Jesus never chose a woman as a discipline. If this is the literal rule, then the Church should only ordain Middle Eastern Jews, who in most cases were married. The silliness of this argument is clear since if applied in any comprehensive way (and not only via gender discrimination), almost the entire clergy, including the Pope, is illegitimate.

Someday, the Church will face its own sins of misogyny and sexism, due less to Scripture and more the inertia of a patriarchal organization bent on replication.

If there is such a thing as a "culture of death," it should be extended to include the US's blowing up Iraqi and Afghan civilians. Did not God create them as well as the unborn? Or are only the unborn sacred?

MikeL4 :
"The priest is right on. Oh how we don't like to be told in our own self-serving justifications that we were not serving God.

We are put here on this earth to serve God's purposes not our own. Serving the culture of death that is Abortion in this country and those politicians who support it with their votes is immoral. The priest called those in his congregation who voted for pro-abortion politicans, such as Obama, out. God bless him for not letting them walk blindly to death."

___________________________________

I find this very interesting and would appreciate some further explanation.

I am Catholic. I voted for Barack Obama, therefore I voted for the culture of death.

However, John McCain is pro-war. He wishes to continue to prosecute Iraq which I believe the Pope has spoken out against. I also believe John McCain and his party will start more wars and will deal with disagreements in a violent fashion. Isn't that, too, a culture of death?

Why is one group more innocent than another? The civilians killed by our military were innocent. Is it because they are not American?

I whole-heartedly agree that no one is pro-abortion. I haven't seen much success from anti-choice in reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies that result in abortions.

All Rev. Newman has done is take a political stand and one that is in violation of the Churches stand on Iraq.

agolembe:
I will be glad to.

The Church has stated that Abortion is of the greater moral imperative because of the sheer enormity of the evil involved. The killing of over 40 million unborn children in the United States. The killing of over one million unborn children a year.

If you cannot see how this current evil is greater than passing evils, I cannot help you.

As to the war in Iraq, that has been condemned as well by our Church. The indiscriminate killing in a war is immoral. You are making political judgements now however, on what is just. You say you believe McCain would start more wars. Yet Obama is going to ramp up the war in Afghanistan. Surely innocents will die there.

Obama says he will sign the Freedom of Choice Act if passed by Congress, I gurantee you more innocents will die then.

As to health care, both political parties fund health care for the poor, yet some fund it different ways and at different levels. Why would one be immoral compared to the other? Because one makes the cutoff say $20,000 instead of say $30,000?

Now say the death penalty. This ones a wash, both guys support this one.

So you see, your vote for Obama was a vote for the Culture of Death that enshrines human selfishness in the act of killing an unborn child.

Your vote helps keep abortion going in the United States. You provide material cooperation in that evil.

You apparently find it morally acceptable that forty million unborn children have been killed in the United States by abortion and are willing to allow it to continue.

As a practicing Catholic, I am not.

Both issues are indications of the zealots within faith that have failed to recognized everyday life and the evolution of times.

These issues are serious and must be addressed within that belief structure as is their rights.

Outside the walls of their faith it is certainly an indication to Americans and citizens of the world that these zealots who utilize a belief structure to sway American elections and manipulate legislation
are not to be trusted, they are more concerned with power and control than maintaining the faith.

Threats to believers for exercising their American duty of voting as they see chose are willful actions to undermining the rights of practitioner guaranteed by our government. If you are forced to do as your told by threats of eternal damnation how is that freedom? and how is that democracy?, why would anyone give up ther rights as American citizens, to become a mindless a salve to an archaic faith.

Faiths who preach the support of a candidate by gods virtue must be removed from tax exempt status and those who fail to recognize women and minorities must be prospected in the U.S. Courts for discrimination within the laws of our land as any business or corporation might be.

If faith cannot recognizance the rights of Americans provided by the government of the United States then unfortunately will must force their compliance and recognition of our laws as any legal business or corporation operating in our communities.

China claims 400 million abortions in 30 years - yes, that's the figure that was given in an article on 'forced' government abortions in China.

Time for Catholic missionaries to get busy in China! ....... then again, probably not.

Life and it's ethical/moral conundrums is often much more extreme and with far worse outcomes, elsewhere in the world.

This should give added perspective to the pro-choice issue in the USA, by comparison.

Please compare the concept of pro-choice as enshrined in Roe v Wade, compared to the idea of 'forced' government abortions in a country with a population of 1.4 billion and growing.

The situations are light years apart - as anyone with common sense would admit.

What Newmann fails to recognize is that a vote for McCain is also a violation of church teaching. McCain is indeed "pro-abortion" in cases of rape and incest. This contradicts church teaching. Therefore, according to Jay Scott Newmann's logic, anyone who casts a vote for McCain is guilty of colluding with intrinisc evil.

Let those who are without sin cast the first stone!

since you are literally talking about death,
How many children, mothers and fathers were killed when Catholics were the supreme ruler in europe?

How many young men, who are now adults, choose not to enjoin the law suits against the church leaders for the child molestation (rape) that was rampant among the clergy as late as the '90's.

Why did they go to extreme lengths to cover up such behavior, and even deny that such atrocities ever took place! And then they take steps to declare bankruptcy to prevent the proper compensation to the rape victims. Then the Pope
comes on tv to declare that he is sorry, as if that one little gesture would wipe from the memories the trauma that these kids will have to endure for a lifetime.

Seems to me the churches closet is full of misdeeds, some of which we will never come to light, and yet they are so bold,as to judge another person for their faults. Why can't they say they are sorry and be done with it, didn't Jesus die on the cross for all sinners, and for the sins yet to be committed?

Lot of big words on this post today. Let me make it real simple for you. First, I see a lot of people saying "Well no one is really pro abortion". I am.

You are an animal. A species. A thing of nature. You're not special. Your baby isn't special. It is not a "gift". It is not "crafted by GOD". Life is not special. Life is not a right. Life is hard. Life is a constant kick in the teeth.

We kill the young of other animals daily. Very few people care. Why? Other animals have no comprehension of their own mortality. Just because you can rationalize it, doesn't make it true.

You can make it a religious issue if you want to, but I will never, NEVER allow religion to control any aspect of my life or my country. You know how many babies and children died when we "took the fight to the terrorists"? Of course you don't. You don't care.

Never,ever call yourself pro-life in my presence. You are a liar and a hypocrite. Pro-life means you value life on a whole. Not a particular life that suits your political or social prerogative.

Call me callous, call me heartless. Whatever. Truth hurts. Again, you're not special. Be pro abortion. You're not a freak, you're just nature. 4,000 children will have died from hunger in this country by year's end. Yet, we are constantly arguing about another mouth that hasn't even been born.

Abortion is a necessary end. The world will collapse one day under the weight of our ever expanding population. If you can't afford to bring a child into this world then don't. If you do get pregnant get an abortion. Don't force them into a life of misery and low expectations just because your pretend Christian friends tell you to.

The Episcopal Church of America exists for people like the priest of reference who want to participate in a communion which allows women to preside at the altar. There's no need for him to stir up doctrinal trouble in the Catholic communion.

Regarding the pastor who says voting for Obama might be a mortal sin, he might have a point. We'll have to wait until the Last Judgment to find out, when God will have the last word, not the posters at a WaPo blog.

"In effect, he's saying that thinking is now mortal sin. He's saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin. He's saying that freedom of speech and thought is a mortal sin."

No, he's saying that if you go against the teachings of the Catholic Church with regards to abortion then you are committing a mortal sin.

He's doing the right thing as a Catholic priest.

This is what being part of an organized religion means.

"So all of this absolutism ....with respect to abortion is an essentially modern invention"

...with respect to the Catholic church and its clergy...

How is it that any christian, catholic or otherwise, can support a political figure who champions allowing aborted babies who survive to lay there and die? Obama's theme poster should show him juggling a crucifix in one hand and an aborted fetus in the other.

I find what these Catholics priests and even evangelical Christians are doing to manipulate politics and control people to be evil. They are correct in that sin is sin. All humanity is sinful, but as a Christian you are supposed to light the way to Christ, to salvation by reflecting his love and peace while at the same time upholding what is right in the eyes of God as depicted in the Bible (the word of God). I don't see where what they are doing has anything to do with getting people to God. It just all seems like power moves for their own ambitions. I stopped practicing Catholicism when I started reading the Bible and found nothing they do is actually based on the scriptures. Much is actually in the opposite direction of Jesus' teachings and the apostles. Now, I am seeing a different side of evangelicals. I watch Obama and his family and I'm disgusted to hear these so called men and women of Christ tear him down and call his plans to better society socialism. Nothing Obama plans is socialism. Yet, that seems to be their trump card for making a man who stands for insuring all people have a means and a way to achieve their dreams in this country seem evil. Something is seriously wrong with that and you'd have to be a moron to not scratch your head and wonder what is really going on in these religions and where exactly is Christ in their hearts when they are own the stages and platforms claiming His name.

Oh and on the topic of abortion. Abortion is not that simple. It isn't a woman just walking into a clinic to rid herself of a child. Devastation can often come before a women chooses abortion...abortion is such a tender matter. I would leave it between a woman and God. Not a woman and man. Who is any one sinner to throw stones at another calling himself less sinful. It makes no sense, but it seems to be the trump card for many to use the political system to oppress and control those they will.

The November 9 letter from Fr. Jay Scott Newman Pastor of St. Mary’s Church in Greenville to his “flock” (and thanks to the AP, to the 54 percent of Catholics who voted for President Elect Obama) relies on his interpretation of the logic of voting for a “plausible alternative” as a Catholic Teaching and his “pastoral admonition” that Catholics who voted for Obama need to repent the sin of cooperating with "intrinsic evil"before receiving Holy Communion.. The good pastor’s position based on the argument of “cooperation with intrnsic evil” as a sin- which of course it is conveniently ignores the teachings of the Church that “intrinsic evil” includes not only cooperation with abortion but also cooperation with racial and economic injustice.

In a prompt, unambigous and clear video statement (http://www.catholic-doc.org/) on Catholic teaching, Rev. Msgr. Martin T. Laughlin, P.A. ADMINISTRATOR of the Diocese of Charleston, SC has referred to the Catechism of the Catholic church and its teaching on the freedom of a well formed Conscience as the official teaching of the Church to guide Catholics on voting and communion..

Even after receiving a public repudiation of his views by his own superiors, Fr. Jay Scott Newman continued to justify himself at the 5.00PM Mass on Saturday Nov 15 which he officiated with his parish faith community. The fact that he continued to refer to President Elect Barack Obama during his homily by repeated use of his middle name Hussein even while providing lame excuses for the Pastor’s own misguided position displays a mind set that the good pastor Newman simply “doesn’t get it”

Catholics throughout the country are grateful that Fr.Jay Scott Newman provided an opportunity for discourse among Catholics and others on misguided efforts by Pastors who do not faithfully interpret the authentic teachings of the Church and thereby wittingly or unwittingly promote a partisan agenda under the guise of “Church teaching”

A Catholic Pastor’s apology is owed from Fr Jay Scott Newman to his “flock” and to the rest of 54 percent of Catholics who voted for Barack Obama for the Pastor’s selective, misguided and incomplete interpretation of Church teaching on the sin of “cooperation with intrinsic evil

The priest said an evil thing. God gave us free will for a reason, to allow us to make our own choice of whether to act morally or not. He didn't ask for some Grand Inquisitor to make the choice for us in a government like the Taliban. Word's cannot express how vile and evil the priest's notion about voting and sin are. I suggest that he get a brush up on what it means to be a religious person who realizes we are responsible for what we do but are not to coerce the decisions of others.

ANY CHURCH THAT SPEAKS OUT POLITLY AND FILES TAX EXAMPT ON THE GIVEN I.R.S. TAX FORM ARE LIEING,AS WELL AS STEALING MONEY FROM U.S.A. FOR THEY HAVE VIOLATED I.R.S. TAX EXAMPT RULES. FREEDOM OF SPEECH ALSO HAS A COST WHICH IS TAX. IS IT TIME TO DO AWAY WITH THE TAX EXAMPT SINCE THERE HAS BEEN SO MANY VIOLATIONS THIS ELECTION SEASON? ALSO PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THE 7th,8th,& 10th COMMANDMENTS. NO ONE SHOULD TELL ANOTHER WHO TO VOTE FOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. NO ONE!

The obvious is clear. Lets's look at the 2004 election:

Vote for Gore for abortion of the innocents.
Vote for Bush to murder innocents in Iraq.

Now look at 2008:

Vote for Obama for abortion of the innocents.
Vote for McCain for the murder of more innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.

It is very clear that the clergy everywhere favor murder. They have just defined perhaps that some murder is good and other murder is bad?

Bottom line. Most clergy are dysfunctional.

I am writing this as a lay Catholic who has a profound respect and love for my Catholic Faith. I am responding from this perspective.

1st concerning Father Newman: I believe he is wrong. The Catholic News Service reported on this incident at (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0805820.htm). In summary it says the administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, S.C., said Father Jay Scott Newman did not adequately reflect the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion and conscience. Speaking on a personal level, I will share I voted for Obama and wish to express on this forum my gratitude for the non-partisan guidance the Catholic Bishops of the US and my state gave concerning the proper formation of a conscience of a Catholic who is voting in this election and all elections.

2nd concerning Rev. Roy Bourgeois. My heart goes out to him and I will keep him in my prayers. My church does have the right to correct and even excommunicate any Catholic, to include myself, who advocates a doctrine that is opposed to her teachings. For example there was a catholic priest several decades ago who taught that if anyone was not a Catholic they would go to hell. The Church warned him and then excommunicate for teaching this error. The Catholic Church is all for and about truth. The Church has a two fold responsibility to interpret God's Laws as well as making its own laws. The case of woman not being ordained, is not a church law but God's law. This is too involved nor am I qualified of properly discussing this issue here except that I do support my church's teaching concerning ordination of woman. Funny thing, my church is criticized for being anti-women in not ordaining woman priest as well as being criticized for putting the Mother of God, a woman, too high on a pedestal.

Churches should stay out of politics.

Or pay taxes.

finfera wrote:
"The Catholic Church is all for and about truth. "

That's VERY difficult to believe because:

1. They church thinks priests can forgive sins, whereas the Bible states that only God can.

2. Catholics are taught that if they don't "do well enough" while on earth, others can pray then into Heaven. Purgatory is totally unBiblical. The Bible says, in Heb. 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

This means that a person has to choose his own fate while (s)he alive. When (s) dies, the judgment is the next thing (S)he sees. There's no second chance after death.

3. Popes have claimed to follow the example of Peter faithfully, but Peter was married. Paul wrote, "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (I Cor 7:8-9) Yet the "truth-seeking" Catholic church would rather subject their priest to needless sexual stress, and when their desires are aroused without a woman, well, we all know what has happened. The church is to blame!

4. Catholicism is the only church which worships and prays to Mary, a dead woman. She was blessed, but not holy.

5. Sins are supposedly forgiven by "praying the rosary." How does a string of beads forgive anybody? They hold NO magical power. If we could be forgiven by them, we would not need a Savior.

6. SAINTS are all who have put and maintained their trust in Jesus Christ. "Sainthood" cannot possibly be conferred by a church.
Th following verses:
Mt:27:52, Acts:9:32, Acts:9:41, Acts:26:10, Rom:8:27, Rom:15:25, Rom:15:31, Rom:16:15, 1Cor:6:1, 1Cor:6:2, 1Cor:14:33, 1Cor:16:1, 1Cor:16:15, 2Cor:1:1, 2Cor:8:4, 2Cor:9:1, 2Cor:9:12, 2Cor:9:12, 2Cor:13:13, Eph:1:1,
Eph:1:15 and Eph:1:18...

...are just about only 1/2 of the verses brought up by a simple Bible search for "the saints," and EVERY ONE OF THEM refers to those...living people...who have been saved by the Blood of Jesus...NOT dead people an arrogant church regards as somehow "special"!

Now, if these things were the least bit biblical, I just might have been a Catholic myself. But I cannot belong to such a church so ridden with such "truth"!!

The Catholic Church as we know it today will be swept into the dustbin of history much sooner than any of us believe. 2000 years is a blink of the eye and other institutions with greater longevity have followed the same path. The clock is ticking.

What this world does not need more of is judgemental, holier than though clergy. Although the church can be a powerful conduit for good through charitable works, it can also keep it's congregants in the dark ages if politically biased clergy decide to rule with religiosity and fear instead of humble example. This is why American Catholics increasingly think for themselves and can be selective about their interpretation of doctrine.

What's better at the end of the day? A world in which women have choice, but there is less abortion? or a world in which there is violence and secret, sub-standard medicine in place of legal medicine, and yes abortions still occur. Right wingers seem to overlook the unintended consequences of their doctrine time after time - wall street, the current mortgage mess, the middle east - need I list more?

The priest spoke truth to his congregation. He should be commended for not allowing his congregattion to feel that earthly actions have no eternal consequences.

Abortion kills a human being. Obama supports the right to kill unborn children. If you voted for him, you joined him in supporting this right. You joined him in supporting the culture of death. This priest is trying to save those in his congregation that he can.

Religious beliefs are no more valid than any superstitious beliefs. Actually people who have superstitions know their nuts, but figure 'what's the harm.' Religions are dangerous by products idiotic morons who can't do the right thing without a gun pointed at their heads. Until we get rid of this scourge, mankind will never progress much beyond the cave man.

Wow. There sure are a lot of folks here who are frightened of the confessional! :/

In a just world, Father Newman has just forfeited his church's tax exempt status.

Whatever happened to respect for all life (not just the unborn), good works, charity for the poor, avoiding unnecessary deaths through war, stewardship of the environment (ie, God's creation), and so may other formerly Catholic Church principals. Now all the wing-nut politicos that speak for the RC Church care about is abortion.

This "priest" has the logic of a Taliban. He's less concerned with faith, than having government control the decisions of people who should have faith. Apparently he isn't confident people will do good without being compelled by law. He chose the wrong profession.

Why is it that priests and higher church officials involve themselves in politics in this fashion?

It seems that they only want to withhold communion to politicians based on their abortion or gay marriage positions. Senator Kerry was similarly attacked by Catholic clergy in 2004.

Why do these same clergymen turn a blind eye to the sins of the right? When President Bush launched his Iraq war, The Pope declared that it was not a just war. That's as far as it went. Nobody suggested that voters who put Bush into power be punished because of his policies that lead to loss of life.

No Catholic Bishop has called for sanctions against republican politicians based on their lack of support for the needs of the needy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxP3HRnIiuk&feature=related

I like others here have a few questions.

1). How does a priest know what it is like to be a women and yet give judgements that regard a women? Are women only slaves?

2). What is the meaning of conception? When does conception take place? Please define it for me, for I can give you more medical conditions that will defraud that notion that is being professed so strongly by the church.

To: flipper49

I am glad you took time and effort in responding to my comments. If I may reply to some of your responses.

We do not worship Mary, the mother of Jesus. Since she is in Heaven next to her Son we ask her to pray to him for us. It is just like when two of my sons were in Afghanistan I asked people of all faiths to pray for them. It is like you praying for your friends. Take a look at our prayer "Hail Mary" in it we say "...Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners....."

Re Praying the Rosary. That is my second favorite prayer. It is a daydreamers prayer. The rosary is divided into four mysteries of the life of Jesus: The joyful part, the part of his preaching, his sufferings, and the glorious part where He shows His God ship through His power over death. In saying the rosary I reflect on all aspects of the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as well as the birth of his church. However, my favorite prayer is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I personally believe that when I am at Mass I am at the same time at the last supper where Jesus offers Himself to the Father in a unbloody manner and at the foot of the cross where he offers Himself to the Father in a bloody manner. Remember Jesus is in the past, present, and future......He, because He is God, created time. At Mass, I join Jesus in the offering of Himself to the Father and as a very unimportant side note, I offer myself, the sinner that I am, to the Father as well.

Yes all of those whom God brings to Heaven are Saints. All of us should strive to go to Heaven. We do this by surrendering ourselves and turning our will completely over to our Savior. The Catholic Church's does identify some of those who made it to Heaven to hold up for us to be inspired by them as well as for us to emulate them. I personally love reading the lives of these heroes. However our greatest hero is Jesus who laid down his very life for all of our sins. He literally took the rape for all of us. My friend, if you were the only person on this planet, he would still go through his suffering a death just for you. What a God.

You indicated that you once thought about being a Catholic yourself. My advice to you is to talk to God. Ask Him what does He want you to do. I remember way back when I did not even believe in God I looked a a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and said, "I do not know if you are for real or not, but if you are, teach me to believe". You know what!....He did!!! He was in no hurry and took His time but he did. You know what I love most about my God! He is a Merciful God. Has to be to forgive the likes of me.

My friend, if you or anyone like to talk to me more about the Catholic Faith or have questions you like to ask, feel free to drop me an email at jim@finfera.com. I promise you I will not pressure you but will be there to answer any of your concerns or questions. I am an old man, 66 years old, and learned a long time ago to never judge.

God bless all of you!

This is the sort of thing that turns Cafeteria Catholics into Ex-Catholics. For an organization that considers suicide to be an unforgivable sin, the Catholic Church has one hell of a death wish. But hey, I predict a great year for the Unitarians...

David, You say you are a Methodist. What uncommon rule do Methodists and Catholics both follow unlike other Christian denominations?????
$5 says you don't know because of your comment about electing priests.

agolembe:
I will be glad to.

The Church has stated that Abortion is of the greater moral imperative because of the sheer enormity of the evil involved. The killing of over 40 million unborn children in the United States. The killing of over one million unborn children a year.

If you cannot see how this current evil is greater than passing evils, I cannot help you.
_____________________________

Thanks for your response. So you are saying the Church has made a moral judgment on who is to be protected and who is not. Who is more innocent than whom. I think you are mistaken. Rev. Newman made his own decision in this matter, not the Catholic Church.

You are saying the Church pracitices moral relativism. The unborn are deserving of God's love more than the born. I do not believe the Church has said that. I believe you are passing your own words and beliefs off as the words and beliefs of the Church.

War is not a passing evil. It is a constant evil that Benedict XVI said of:

"There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a 'just war'."

The Pope is questioning the the very idea of a "just war", in fact, the very idea of war.

As noted elsewhere, John McCain supports abortion in cases of rape, incest and the health of the mother, so in fact, McCain's culture of death is more dangerous than Obama's. By Rev. Newman's standard, giving communion to anyone who supports the killing of human beings is anathema. That includes the death penalty and prosecuting wars.

Your comments on health care have no bearing on the topic. As I noted before, the religous right has not been successful in reducing the ocurrence of unwanted pregnancies. They may wish to put their efforts there and in adoption rather than in denying the sacraments to parishoners.

I am a Catholic but I am also a citizen of the US. As a citizen I find it unacceptable that anyone is killed, both living and unborn. But to say that one candidate is more morally acceptable than the other is simply personal opinion. For Rev. Newman to make a political statement is destroying the wall between church and state.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

David, You say you are a Methodist. What uncommon rule do Methodists and Catholics both follow unlike other Christian denominations?????
$5 says you don't know because of your comment about electing priests.

It's time for the IRS to eliminate the tax exemption of the Catholic Church. To have a tax exemption, a church or other non-profit must refrain from endorsing candidates, even indirectly. Here we have a Catholic clergyman endorsing a candidate, John McCain, and demanding that Catholics not vote for Barack Obama because of the two candidates' different position on abortion.

The Catholic Church cannot have it both ways. If they want a tax exemption, they need to play by the rules we set that allow churches to have this privilege. It's time for the Catholic Church to start paying income taxes in the United States, because they obviously refuse to follow the rules. Pay up, Catholic Church! Either pay up or stop endorsing candidates and stop threatening people over their votes.

TheRealDerf wrote:
How is it that any christian, catholic or otherwise, can support a political figure who champions allowing aborted babies who survive to lay there and die? Obama's theme poster should show him juggling a crucifix in one hand and an aborted fetus in the other.
_________________________________

TheRealDerf, after watching this campaign how can you be so misinformed? Sen. Obama did not support the bill you refer to because physicians are already required to save a fetus that survives abortion. Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support."

The "Born Alive" bill you refer to was a thinly veiled attempt to interfere with a woman's right to choose and to redefine a fetus, it was not necessary to save these children.

Being ignorant is one thing, being purposefully ignorant is another thing.

Rev. Roy Bourgeois, M.M. if there is a GOD, I think there is one out there, let him bless you. As to that other priest well what I can say he is a moron. How does he know? As to the Vatican, did they use to allow Popes to marry? May be they should allow their priests to marry again. This simple action will save them tons of headache like molesting boys and would not be an embarrasment to their church. It is amazing all these different churches fighting about one God... unless God comes down and fixes all the mess down here everything else is a mere guess..by this church or that church let alone a mortal priest like the one from Greenville, South Carolina the center of the Universe if you will..

How bizarre.

How about murdering tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis for no good reason. I wonder if that's a mortal sin.

Who cares what some pedophile wannabe who lights candles and chants for a living made off of offerings of the poor has to say! Obviously not American Catholics, as Obama won that demographic group.

Rev. Jay Scott Newman is a sterling example of Catholic garbage and a priest-craft meddling lunatic. S hit on him and "Mother Church."

The old walls of liberal/conservative, demo/repub, etc are coming down.

We are re-aligning around Reason.

This country was founded on the separation of church and state. Issues of government are to be based on Reason.

Looks like the uneducated and ignorant are out in force today.

Been spending too much time at that creationism museum, eh?

OK, three problems here.

First, if any tax-exempt organization is telling people who not to vote for, then they absolutely should start paying taxes.

Second, this priest has no way of knowing who has or has not been to confession since the election. Considering his attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if many of his parishioners do their reconciliation elsewhere.

Third, there is a real question whether legal prohibition is the best way to stop abortions from happening. Many pro-life Catholics made a choice this election to vote for the candidate whom they (we) felt would be most likely to promote a society that values women and children, i.e. a society where women do not feel driven to abort.

After 8+ years of lip service but no action from one party, maybe it's time for another strategy with the other guys.

It's very arguable that by electing Obama that there will be a decline in abortion. That Rev. Newman is a reprehensible idiot. He should know better than this, and if there's sin here it's with him.

As for the Catholic Churches claims against the ordination of women, and against allowing clergy to marry, this is just evil and wrong. The divine does not reside in some priests underutilized nut sack, and anyone who can't see that is a fool. Every argument I've ever heard against this has been idiotic drivel so lacking in common sense and logic that it should shame any Jesuit badly to have to be a party to this farce.

It should be obvious to anyone that any god worthy of worship, ostensible creator etc. isn't going to be stupidly hung up on genitals. This would imply god was an idiot, and therefore not divine.

Christian fundamentalists of all sorts preach a similar message ...

But who really cares about these religious nutjobs any longer? Barack Obama won!

These nutjobs are irrelevant. Ignore them and they just might go away.

http://www.flickr.com/dmathew1

When a minister, priest, pastor, or what have you, withholds the Sacraments from a congregant based on political beliefs, that church leader has politicized God. And She's not laughing. I agree with the poster who pointed out that Newman's church should be scrutinized now by the IRS with the possibility of tax-exemption status. My sense is that the Roman Catholic Church, throughout its history, has always wielded the Sacraments as a weapon, a usage which makes a bigger mockery of the Sacraments that someone's voting choice.

So, if you voted for Obama, No Sacrament For You. Quite an interesting take on morality, given the clergy's record with children.

Partial birth abortion is a gruesome procedure that Obama supports. Children that survive abortions should be allowed to die according to Obama's vote.

Is being a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing which dish they serve is acceptable something that the Vatican approves of?

Being a good Christian who supports abortion on demand is an impossibility. It is also hypocrisy.

Being a good Catholic and Pro-Choice is an Oxymoron.

The comparison of the church, especially the Catholic Church, and God is Oxymoronic. The church and God have nothing in common at this time. Why people continue to go to church the way it is currently administered is a mystery to me. Church and those that run church could not be further from God at this time. They lost sight of what church is supposed to mean.

All of the teachings of God and Jesus when it comes to mankind are passive. The Ten Commandments are passive. Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek and for those who have not sinned to cast the first stone. Abortion is not mentioned in the bible so there can be no interpretation of abortion as directed by God.

The rules that clarify who can be a priest are not defined in the bible. The facts that priest in the bible are men are meaningless. After all, when asked by his disciples what will happen to women who cannot enter heaven because they are not men, Jesus answered that it is not mankind’s problem because he would turn women into men. Now, I have no Idea what that means do you. It seems that in the eyes of God there is no difference between men and women.

When will the church return to representing people and not principle? When will the church return to honoring God and not self? Does the fate of Nadab and Abihu await these charlatans?

Do the same rules hold true regarding killing in war and the death penalty? If you voted for a candidate who supports the war in Iraq / Afghanistan or who supports the death penalty, are you guilty of the same sin? It seems like under these rules, a "true" Catholic could never vote.

"Is being a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing which dish they serve is acceptable something that the Vatican approves of?" (sic)

My first reaction to a post like this is who cares what the Vatican approves of. If you want to get some guidance on values from a religious organization, that's fine. But at some point you have to grow up and learn to make decisions on your own. That entails learning to gather data, analyze those data and facts, and come to a conclusion based on those data which are independent of what anyone else thinks or says. Blind obediance to any person or organization is just that - blind obediance. Having disagreements with the Vatican, or any organization you happen to support, is not only healty, it is necessary to ensure the success and survival of that organization. How else will they know what the people who support them really think?

On the ordination of women to priesthood:
1. The priest is a sign of Christ.
2. A sign must be like the one signified, who is Jesus, a man.
3. Turn this around--Jesus is like us, in all things but sin. In technical language, Jesus assumed our human nature in order to save us. The Church even says what is not assumed is not saved.
4. Salvation is not just a spiritual thing. Our bodies as well as our souls are saved.
5. Women's bodies as well as men's are saved. The Church even teaches that there are two bodies already in heaven--Jesus his mother.
6. If Jesus resembles his mother and any other woman enough to save them, body and soul, then women must resemble Jesus enough, even physically, to be a sign of Jesus at the altar.
I'm not a professional theologian, but can you see a hole in this argument? I would go further:
7. Jesus became like all people in order hopefully to save all people. But not all people have the same height and weight as Jesus or the same color or the same ethnicity and culture. Our colors, heights, weights, and even our ethnic and cultural differences are saved. Jesus became like all of us in all these things. How? In heaven Jesus possessed the fullness of being, but the relevant thing is that Jesus emptied himself of all this and became a man. He was given one particular body with its particular height, weight and color. He was given one particular ethnic heritage and the particular culture of just one place and time on earth. No matter how hard we try, none of us can be any more than that. That's what being human is. If Jesus, as a man, had been more than the one particular human being that he was, he wouldn't have been like any of us. Jesus became like us in all our particularities by being the one particular human being that he was. That's sometimes called the "scandal" of Christianity--one event at one time and place in all of history brings universal salvation. By having one sex Jesus was like all of us, who are universally divided by sex into male and female.
8. Not only CAN the Church ordain either sex as signs of Jesus at the altar. I would say the Church MUST ordain BOTH or the priesthood as a whole is not a very good sign of Jesus.

Dear:

Objective fact: Catholic church has thousands of saints who followed Jesuschrist, such as Father Damian who was in Molokai, abandoning (giving up completely) another possibility of comfortable life, to help lepers to have a decent life and lead them towards God. Also: Mother Teresa of Calcuta, Saint Francis of Assisi (origin of San Francisco's city name), Saint Francis Xavier (went to Japan and China) and so many...

Please, my argument is one cannot judge a whole institution (Catholic Church) for only some priests who did not do what they should have done as a consequence of human weakness or human disorders of affection, for God never told them to abuse of someone.

You know there are doctors and policemen who do not do what they should do, but do you condemn or judge medical associations or police institutions? Or do you keep going to hospitals and police?

For anyone who wants to hear this, completely free, and only if you wish, one could go to see and receive Christ everyday to Mass.

With all my love and all sincerity,

Humble server

mharwick also wrote: "Is being a Cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing which dish they serve is acceptable something that the Vatican approves of?

Well lets see, which Catholics rules and laws are in vogue today? Do we still speak Latin at mass? Is eating meat on Friday still a sin? Is the earth still the center of the universe? Is evolution still a lie? If you are under the assumption that the Catholic church is resolute in its canon laws and ideas you are gravely mistaken.

mharwick also wrote: "Being a good Christian who supports abortion on demand is an impossibility. It is also hypocrisy."

There is no such thing as abortion on demand in this country. Please, tell us where you can go and get an abortion on demand in your 4th month of pregnancy or later?

I am not necessarily against women becoming priests, should the Pope decide to allow it. However, I do take issue with a couple of statements of Father B

"Having an all male clergy implies that men are worthy to be Catholic priests, but women are not."
and

"Silence is the voice of complicity. Therefore, I call on all Catholics, fellow priests, bishops, Pope Benedict XVI and all Church leaders at the Vatican, to speak loudly on this grave injustice of excluding women from the priesthood."

The problem that I see it is that many women feel that they are out of the loop of power in the Catholic Church because they can't be priests or bishops (Nancy Pelosi's recent remarks about how she wanted to be a priest for power comes to mind as well as other statements from women made in the past). However, these positions are not the "power" Christ wants us to achieve. This may come as a surprise to most Catholics, however the highest "level" that is obtainable in the Church is not Pope, but is Saint. Jesus wants us to be like him, renounce sin and this world's posessions and care for others less fortunate. Many, many women have become saints and have literally been revered throughout the centuries. Yet somehow, the Catholic Church is more "sexist" than those other churches who allow the ordination of women.

Of course, I will be attacked by those who are too blind to see that the Church has actually been anything but sexist throughout the centuries, but the truth is out there for anyone who actually can think for him/herself. Ordination of women is such a small feat, as a life-long Catholic, I do not know why women feel that strongly about it. Will it somehow magically make even more women saints, is that what they're thinking?

To paraphrase a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, since it is so fitting, "Why do women want to be ordained as priests, is it for their glory or for His?" I am all for it, if it is truly for His glory, but I have a sneaky suspicion that it is not.

If there were a requirement that every proclaimation of the sins of others be prefaced by a confession of one's own sins, this would not be an issue coming from the two faces of the institutional pedophile enablers. They need to butt out of politics and leave the sin-calling to God, the Holy Spirit.

Why would anyone care about this? There is no such thing as god and thus no such thing as "mortal sin".

The whole thing is moot and everyone really knows this, but the charade continues. Insecure people being preyed upon by scamming, power-hungry religious leaders.

Imagine the tax relief we would have if religions were taxed like other businesses! Oh, but then the preacher/priest might have to settle for a smaller car or house. Those altruists!

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113390329/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Abstract
Employment of women while their children are infants has increased in the UK in the last decade. This study of 57 employed mothers of infants less than seven months old examined their retrospective reports of planning child care and their contemporaneous feelings about the child care they were using, based on qualitative interviews. Issues addressed included mothers' reasons for returning to employment at that time, their theoretical preferences among a range of child care types and providers and the process of making actual choices, including the range and types of advice received and the involvement of fathers. Mothers were also encouraged to discuss their feelings about how child care was working out once the infant was settled. Continuing concerns expressed by mothers included the importance of open communication with caregivers, their desire to keep control over infants' daily lives and upbringing, worries about infants' safety and concerns about the levels of cognitive stimulation they received. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

http://childcare.about.com/od/evaluations/f/infantcare.htm

Question: When Is My Infant Old Enough To Be Placed In Child Care?

When is my infant old enough to be placed in child care?

Answer: Generally, the longer parents can wait after an infant's birth for placement in care is best to allow time for bonding, for the umbilical cord to fully heal, feeding established and for other newborn newness on the part of both parent and child to dissipate and a routine set. Idealistically, this adjustment period would be between 3-6 months. However, because many working moms have only a six-week maternity week and their families rely on their income, this is not always practical.

In placing calls to numerous daycare facilities, the prevalent practice is that healthy and full-term infants can be accepted into a daycare program at 6 weeks of age. Many institutional-type facilities are not equipped to handle special needs for infants born prematurely or with special medical needs at this very tender age.

If considering taking your infant to daycare at 6-8 weeks, be sure to ask a lot of questions about staff qualifications, ratio, structure of the day, and other details. It is important for parents to be comfortable and confident of their newborn's care while they are work.

Also consider hiring an in-home provider such as a nanny or professional caregiver or taking your infant to an at-home child care provider, at least until your baby is older.

The good news is that there are a lot of options available for parents to make informed choices and know their kid will receive quality care.

Butterflies Get Ants to Raise Young
Thu Jan 3, 2008 1:58 PM EST
science, butterfly, cuckoo
Associated Press

This undated photo provided Thursday, Jan. 3, 2008 by the University of Copenhagen shows a female Alcon blue butterfly laying eggs on a flower head of the Marsh gentian, plant Gentiana pneumonanthe. Researchers in Denmark report that the large blue butterfly has managed to produce larvae with a chemical coating similar to that of the local Myrmica rubra ants. The butterflies deposit their larvae on marsh gentian plants where exploring ants find them, identify the chemical coating, and take the butterfly larvae back to the ant colony and feed them until they grow up and leave, the researchers report in Thursday's edition of the journal Science. (AP Photo/University of Copenhagen, David Nash, PA Wire)

WASHINGTON — Call it the cuckoo of butterflies. Like the well-known birds, the Alcon blue butterfly has found a way to get others to raise its offspring. Researchers in Denmark report that the large blue butterfly has managed to produce larvae with a chemical coating similar to that of the local Myrmica rubra ants.

The butterflies deposit their larvae on marsh gentian plants where exploring ants find them, identify the chemical coating, and take the butterfly larvae back to the ant colony and feed them until they grow up and leave, the researchers report in Thursday's edition of the journal Science.

The researchers, led by David R. Nash of the University of Copenhagen, added that elsewhere in Europe the Alcon butterfly uses a different ant species to raise its young.
© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Big religious denominations have become big businesses. They now intrude into politics while claiming non-profit status, this ridding themselves of having to pay taxes.
Too bad most of them have lost sight of the true meaning of Christianity.

I absolutely defend this priest's right to say that people are committing mortal sin by voting for Barack Obama. Free speech is just that. However, I'm not willing to pay for it or subsidize it.

I think we as a society need to come to grips with the continuing trend of tax exempt organizations engaging in political speech. Even if it also was religious in nature, CLEARLY, Rev. Newman's speech was a political one. We as a society either need to reconsider the increasingly blurred line separating church and state, or we need to start taking action.

In Rev. Newman's case, this would mean his church would lose its tax exempt status, as would those contributing tithes to it. If not, are we going to grant tax exempt status to MoveOn.org and all the rest now?

I have often wondered what the difference might be between the so-called charity of many Christians and the wickedness of demons.

This is a ridiculous article and clearly shows that some individuals are not above abusing their moral authority. Complain to the Bishop and get the man moved out to South Dakota.

Does anyone need any further reason to turn your back to all churches and religious leaders? And if you are a person who follows a church blindly, stop and think. THINK WHY. THINK WHY. THINK.

Humbleserver:

FYI, Father Damien has not yet been canonized by the Catholic Church. Despite his many good works on the island of Moloka'i, the requisite number of miracles has not yet been confirmed by the church hierarchy. In the eyes of many observers his case also foundered for so long because he questioned and defied church and civil authority in defense of these unfortunate people and because, in the eyes of many ignorant church officials, the leprosy from which he himself died was incorrectly thought to be a venereal disease. It's also worth noting that among his good works was burial of the dead (sometimes as many as five or six per day) who had been exiled and abandoned by other Christians, mostly on the authority of OT scripture which commanded shunning the victims of this disease. Finally, while I assume you did not intend any disrespect, many victims of leprosy resent being called "lepers" in the same way that victims of other diseases object to being classified and objectified solely on the basis of their infirmities. You are correct on one point however: he was a very good man.

How so many "Catholics" wish to justify their vote for Obama. They claim Obama's position on Iraq made him the superior choice. Well lets see:

Both candidates wanted to end the war in Iraq, the question was how. Not whether to end it, but how. One wanted to withdraw at a slower pace and one at a rapid pace. Arguably, Obama's position could induce a new civil war, leading to even more death. Now then how does voting for one over the other make him the moral superior choice?

Obama supports the "right" to kill unborn children on demand in the United States. He said he would sign the Freedom of Choice Act if passed by Congress. He was called the most aggressive promoter of Abortion Rights to run for President since Roe, by the Bishop of Denver.

This priest was absolutely correct to point out to his congregation that votes have moral consequences. If you voted for Obama, knowing his support for the "right" to kill unborn children, you join him in supporting that evil.

You join him in supporting the culture of death.
God bless this priest for calling out those in his congregation who join in that evil.

Just another reason how completely out of it the Church continues to be. Those idle, Middle Age type threats aimed at an ignorant and guilt ridden flock don't quite cut it anymore, your excellency. Better to mind your own house and focus your time on those child molesters who remain very active in your Church, saying mass and playing with the little ones.

So we want to get silly. Fine I’ll play along.

The only Catholics who should receive communion are the ones who do not support the US Government, or really any government. When you give your government the right to go to war you are supporting the right to kill combatants and civilians.

I don’t see Christ ever supporting war.

How about poverty which has been allowed to flourish under a capitalist system? We have the money and resources to stamp this out across the world and we don’t, I guess that means we support letting people and particularly children starve to death.

Seems to me Jesus was a socialist, so unless you are voting for a socialist you are voting outside your party.

Religions will either evolve with the rest of society or one day they will become obsolete and go the way of the dodo bird. Those that evolve and come to a greater understanding of what “is” will flourish and help the world come together rather than keep us apart.

WHAT RIGHT DOES ONE HUMAN TO MAKE A RELIGIOUS RULE ON ALL OTHER HUMANS? WHAT RIGHT DOES A CHURCH HAVE IN THE USA TO VIOLATE TAX EXAMPT RULES AND THEN FILE I.R.S. TAX EXAMPT? ALWAYS ASK QUESTIONS.

Hmmm....the Catholic Church is acting like the GOP - restricting access.

I'm so thankful I left the catholic church and this type of hooey years ago. One of these days, when the pews are empty, they'll wonder what went wrong. Here's a hint...it isn't 1950 anymore.

Take away the tax exempt status too.

Thankful to be a recovering catholic.

Archdiocese did not support the pastor. See this link
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008311150001

MikeL4 wrote: "Both candidates wanted to end the war in Iraq, the question was how. Not whether to end it, but how. One wanted to withdraw at a slower pace and one at a rapid pace. Arguably, Obama's position could induce a new civil war, leading to even more death. Now then how does voting for one over the other make him the moral superior choice?"

McCain support this war from the beginning, Obama opposed it. In hindsight who was the wiser? Who would have saved more lives? And you can speculate which one has the correct vision for the future in Iraq based on various senarios, but what is clear is that Obama so far has been right on this war and McCain has been wrong. Who do you think is better able to make decisions about the future, one who has been right or one who has been wrong?

MikeL4 wrote: "Obama supports the "right" to kill unborn children on demand in the United States. He said he would sign the Freedom of Choice Act if passed by Congress. He was called the most aggressive promoter of Abortion Rights to run for President since Roe, by the Bishop of Denver."

Have you read this Act? Do you understand it simply codifies Roe. Little would change. The only real change would be federal funding issues, but as for a woman, her rights would remain the same, and limitations would remain the same, being that abortions could be performed in the first trimester only. So this is not some new "abortion on demand" law as many are calling it. It is simply putting into law what has already been determined to be a right under Roe.

MikeL4 wrote: "This priest was absolutely correct to point out to his congregation that votes have moral consequences. If you voted for Obama, knowing his support for the "right" to kill unborn children, you join him in supporting that evil."

The priest can tell his flock how to vote, that is freedom of speech. But then he must also pay taxes like you and me, which he apparantly is not willing to do via section 501(c)(3) of the tax code whereby a charitable or religious organization can be exempt from taxes as long as they do not get involved in politicking. The priest can lecture on the ills of abortion til the cows come home, but he cannot endorse a candidate nor tell his congregation how to vote AND maintain his tax exempt status. This priest is essentially violating the tax agreement and should be forced to pay his taxes as you and I do. Its not an issue of free speech, its an issue of a tax exemption for not politicking, and then politicking. Sort of like breaking an agreement. What sin does that come under?

MikeL4 wrote: "You join him in supporting the culture of death. God bless this priest for calling out those in his congregation who join in that evil."

What about those Catholics who voted for GWB, who supports the death penalty. Just wondering considering the church is against that as well due to the evil culture of death it represents. Was it a sin to vote for Bush? And remember, Bush signed death orders. Obama never ordered an abortion.

This priest is an idiot and needs to be defrocked or at the very least a psychiatrist is in order.

McCain and Palin are hardly perfect Catholics either. Greedmongers are as responsible for the mess of the family as are pro-abortionists.

Let's face it— we're a bunch of sheep who were frightened to vote for anything other than the 2 choices sanctioned by oil interests in the media.

It's all about the money. Jesus is cursing our names.

Archdiocese DID support the pastor— are we reading the same article?!

"To paraphrase a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, since it is so fitting, "Why do women want to be ordained as priests, is it for their glory or for His?" I am all for it, if it is truly for His glory, but I have a sneaky suspicion that it is not."

Doesn't this apply to all humans, and not just women?

if we start questioning the religious leaders' interpretations and teachings of the holy books, it wouldn't be called faith, would it?

so some faithful will take whatever the clergy tells them and feel good about their actions. some church goers will use their own conscience and judgments to make decisions and find comfort in the spiritual rituals of the religious tradition.

either way, it is all self-serving and totally human.

For many here's the easy way through life and on to mansions of gold in the hereafter: if you can't think for yourself, join a church and follow an "authority" who'll do your thinking for you.

It's nearly impossible for any of us to see our own blindspots, especially those in our belief systems. But in my experience wise people are open to the possibility such blindspots exist; and self-reflect at times to try and become aware of their nature, influence and errors.

Not a process typically taught in church, with the exception that questions are ok as long as you come to the proper conclusion (the priest reveals the correct answer of course).

The problem with denying communion to Catholics because they supported Obama demonstrates a complete disregard for all other considerations that have a far greater effect on an individual voter. How about the economy? What about foreign policy? Non-abortion Healthcare? Immigration? Poverty? Jobs? 2 Wars?

I attend Catholic Mass with my family. I understand the objections of the Church. This priest has overstepped his authority; he has singled out a specific political group to punish; and he should be removed.

I'm sorry but I read what he said. He said those who voted for as ardent a proponent of abortion as Obama should go to confession before they received.

And D Rihl if you truly *are* Catholic you would know that the priest has no knowledge whether or not the parishioners went to confession. **The confessional is anonymous.** (You should know that if you are CAtholic, or go to Mass with your family). The penitent can go to confession in *any* parish.

Fr Newman cannot deny communion to a parishioner--or in fact a stranger should she so present herself at the communion rail--on the basis that they have not been to confession because it is impossible for him to know if they have been or not.

Please. This is just an excuse for Catholic-bashing, something the Post does very well.

I am seeing here a pitiful grasp of the relationship between a lack of family values, and the resulting economic, political and social consequences thereof.

You take the Mother away from the children, and you get messed up people who are instinct injured and unable to form policy that benefits society as a whole; society being that which is BUILT upon the backs of families everywhere.

Architects know that a sound foundation is necessary for a solid building structure, and good priests know that Women are not Men. Men are not made to give birth, and the hormonal structure is different for this reason.

The fact is that Mothers who hand their babies over to strangers spend the rest of their lives out-letting unvisited maternal urges intended for their *own* infants, on the rest of adult society. They are so angry and confused from being denied bonding with their infants, that they exhibit overly controlling, angry, constraining political behaviors which smother our collective freedoms, censoring others to treat one-another with kid gloves, much the same way they were never able to treat their infants.

But adults and infants have different needs, and different policy must apply in the nursery than applies in government.

No instinct-injured woman who can no longer differentiate herself from a male, could ever be self-critical enough to make this distinction. Psychological council is in order for these women who hunger for male roles due to an absence of nurturing culture in their own lives.

If priests want to influence their parishioners’ political views, then the Church should become a political organization and pay taxes.

Please, please someone explain to me: why is it that abortion is considered to be such an unforgivable crime by religious and social conservatives, yet most of these same people are utterly silent when it comes to engaging war and putting people to death? Hell, many religious conservatives support war despite the fact that in any war, women, children and the elderly will die in far greater numbers than soldiers. Where is the outcry against that and against George W. Bush? Is there some religious/moral logic that says that it’s OK to kill women and children in other countries? How can Christians support a president who engages in war and is for the death penalty, unless these same Christians completely ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ? And if you DO live by the Old Testament, then shouldn’t we be executing adulterers? (I guess that means that John McCain would be on death row). I’m being serious in asking these questions. I want to understand the logic, because to me, the hypocrisy is sickening.

All I’m saying is, if you’re going to preach that “all human life is sacred” don’t pick and choose which lives are sacred and which ones are not. And I’m not even going to talk about the abuse of boys at the hands of priests, under the indirect and implicit approval of the Catholic Church. I hope there is a special place in hell for these pedophiles and those who protect them.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Jesus were walking amongst us today, preaching tolerance and forgiveness, conservative Christians would be the first to denounce him as a false prophet, and the last to recognize who he is.

I find it interesting that the priest felt so compelled to tell parishoners that it is a sin to vote their conscience if it wasn't his conscience on abortion. Did this priest also have such strong convictions on the sex abuse scandal that harmed children who are already born? Did he write a letter to his brethren who committed these abuses against children?

From MSMARTS2: "Actually people who have superstitions know their nuts."

I bet they know their nuts and other parts of their body as well.

I'm not religious but I find that how judgmental a person is seems to be in direct proportion to how badly they spell.

So it's OK to vote for a man who who cracks jokes about invading Iran (an act which would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people); it's OK to vote for a man who gave approval for a war which has killed tens of thousands- maybe even a quarter-million- innocent people; but it is not OK to vote for a man who does not accept the dogma that life begins at conception?

This is exactly the reason why religion alone cannot be considered a sound basis for making political judgments. For every Martin Luther King Jr. advocating civil rights, there are a dozen Martin Luthers, Torquemadas, and Osama Bin Ladens advocating the alienation and ruin of innocent people because their idea of innocence and guilt comes from a book someone wrote a thousand years ago, and which explicitly forbids people from questioning it.

As Christopher Hitchens said, "religion poisons everything".

There are many ways in which to take a Mother away from her children:

1) the promoting of substance-abuse in younger women, which results in life-long alcohol abuse, and the subsequent brain-damage leading to [scientifically documented] reduction in social empathy, and therefore nurturing abilities in the female populace.
2) the enforcement of two-salary family incomes when all we would need to do is compensate men enough to support their families on a single income, making provisions for widows and the like within society's structures.
3) the encroachment of teaching moral and spiritual content to young children by the state, to the point where Mothers are frightened of the social consequences of stepping out of the majority opinion, that being contrived by state forces such as media and popular news-sources.
4) the programming of younger women to accept homosexual males as viable sexual partners via the use of gay poster boys in fashion and throughout industry as the ideal male sexual contemporary.
5) an imbalanced emphasis on sexual supremacy in the media which makes it unfashionable to age, therefore eliminating the crone and matriarch from female culture, or placing a muzzle on those women who would oppose these blind restrictions on female culture as unhealthy for future generations.
6) masculine women promoting other masculine women in some feigned "legitimacy culture" in order to define a culture of sexual jealousy against the more maternal, and nurturing females of the species, effectively removing all marriage options and advancement opportunities for sexually preferred women outside of the sex trade and related fields.
7) the subsequent onslaught of carcinogens which then easily target this segregated group of more fertile women who succumb to over-use of the fashion and cosmetic industries in an effort to gain society's approval
8) the prevalence of prostitution throughout the "civilized" world is direct evidence of this

Bevjim/Gerard

Your guy Obama supports War as well, in Afghanistan. Women and children will die there as well. Hmm.

If our Lord was walking among, which I am sure he still is, he is surely preaching against killing unborn children in the womb as he has commanded his Church to do. Something you are unwilling to accept.

As to poverty, education, immigration, etc. the amount of money spent on those are the subject of debate of how much, not whether to spend money on them, therefore, one is not more moral than the other.

As to FOCA, yes indeed it codifies ROE. It also removes all state restrictions on the killing of unborn children. It will force me, as a taxpayer to fund the murder of unborn children for poor families who wish to kill their unborn children.

Both McCain and Obama support the death penalty.

Now to kill an unborn child is immoral to the extreme. McCain the Republican candidate this year, since holding public office, has been opposed to abortion on demand.

Obama the Democrat candidate this year supports abortion on demand. He is steeped in the culture of death.

This priest was right to call out those in his congregation who voted for Obama and joined him in support of this evil.

Jesus did not condone the burning of brothels because he understood that angry, neglectful women caused the brothels to come into existence.

All around me throughout government, I see hen-pecked diminutive men, and large, masculine women. The men are silenced by these muscular women who know nothing of femininity, and these men are the voice of compassion, just as Jesus was.

c_halasz wrote: "Architects know that a sound foundation is necessary for a solid building structure, and good priests know that Women are not Men. Men are not made to give birth, and the hormonal structure is different for this reason."

But male priests are made to have sex, which the church denies them by requiring chastity. Now, what sort of phychological issues does that create? Maybe pedophilia? Maybe an "understanding" of pedophile priests? If you want to see psychological issues as a result of religiously dictated requirements the Catholic church is a good place to start. I know, I grew up in one. The priests were not very smart, one telling me that mountains are due to rocks growing because "everything is alive". I've seen the alcoholism in both priests and nuns. I've seen priests disappear while rumors were going around about an alter boy incident but never got the real story. I've seen first hand a nun go berserk in the classroom and sent a child to a hospital with a staple in his neck.

Chaste men are no solid foundation for a church or any organization. To think they are more psycholigocally sound than women is silly. You only need to look at secular society to see how both men and women have proven themselves equally capable of running an organization.

Personally, I follow Doug Kmiec's advice and argument on this subject. Given that I voted for Obama and I am not about to repent for it for two reasons: First, it was not because of his stance on abortion (which is what the pastoral letter says), but rather because of his stances on every other social justice issue; Second, it was an ultimate good.

Finally, if the Catholic Church is serious about this, then I would suggest that other Catholics follow my lead on a very American action along the lines of no taxation without representation--stop your tithes and donations to the Catholic Church. Since the Catholic Church refuses to acknowledge any other issue but abortion, take the money you would normally give to the church and give it to a charity that feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, houses the homeless, provides assistance for adoptions, runs an orphanage or just give it to the homeless man or woman you meet on your way home from work. If the middleman (the Church) cannot see these very real representations of Christ in our midsts brought on by the very policies they threaten us to vot for, then we need to cut them out and do our work directly.

bevjims1, you insult the intelligence of everyone on this board. Nuns are as VALID as priests. You insult the good works of Catholic Sisters everywhere in your statement.

All you are accomplishing is an underlining of the dangers of alcohol culture in red ink.

And rest assured, as an active user of abstinence, I am no closer to abusing any child, sexually or otherwise— perhaps because I also never drink alcohol.

"Personally, I follow Doug Kmiec's advice and argument on this subject. Given that I voted for Obama and I am not about to repent for it for two reasons: First, it was not because of his stance on abortion (which is what the pastoral letter says), but rather because of his stances on every other social justice issue; Second, it was an ultimate good."

Pepper88:

I challenge you to name two other people who were running for president off the top of your head. YOU CANNOT PROPERLY ARGUE THIS POSITION IF YOU ARE NOT PROPERLY EXPLORING ALL YOUR OPTIONS, BUT LETTING LOBBYISTS ANS COMMERCIAL INTERESTS DO IT FOR YOU.

MikeL4 wrote: "Now to kill an unborn child is immoral to the extreme. McCain the Republican candidate this year, since holding public office, has been opposed to abortion on demand."

Well, when a child is a "child" is the issue isn't it? I think we could all agree that someone who kills an 9 month pregnant woman has killed two people, the mother and unborn child. But as we start heading back in time we disagree where the existance of a "child" begins.

The courts have said it begins at the end of the first trimester. The church says it begins at conception. Others may have different views. For example, if someone killed my young wife could I sue for the children we could have had but had not yet been concieved? Others may determine that contraception prevents conception and is therefore murder.

It is important in any discussion to understand the stand of the other. Once you demonize the other the discussion stops. The differing position between those who are pro-choice and the catholic church is three months. We have a lot more in common than you realize. But the church's absolute stand prevents any real work being done to reduce the reasons women choose abortion. The church wants to do that by making it a sin, ignoring the history of making abortion illegal. Pro-choice advocates want to do it through education and contraceptives while allowing abortion in the first trimester. Others try to make adoption easier and provide assistance for those who choose adoption.

Still, absolutes, which the church is all about, are counterproductive in complicated decisions like abortion. Maybe that's why the church has had such bad luck at preventing contraception among its flock. But regardless, if the church wants to bring theocracy into government, then it had better be ready for other religions to do the same, and be prepared to adhere to its tenants, like maybe actually keeping the Sabbath holy, something Catholics do not do and is a mortal sin, or can Catholics just choose which day they decide to keep holy, Sunday in their case, and ignore God's law?

In response to: "How so many 'Catholics' wish to justify their vote for Obama."

I am a Catholic, and I am proud to have cast my ballot for Barack Obama. I, along with 54% of Catholics across this country, are not trying to justify our vote. Rather, we are celebrating it. Go ahead, accuse us of not being real Catholics; accuse the majority of the Catholic Church in America of not being actual Catholics. The Catholic Church is universal, a vast collection of cultures and identities, not bound by one issue.

I am bound to Catholisicm by my belief in the Holy Trinity, the redemptive sacrifice of the Cross, and the Resurrection. Abortion is not in the Apostle's Creed. Being pro-choice or pro-life does not define a Catholic. What would the Church do if abortion is made illegal, but the practice continues behind closed doors? Will there remain an outcry? Abortion, whether legal or not, will always remain a personal, and available choice. Until the Church develops ready and available programs to support pregnant women and poor families in all areas of the world, it's declarations and scolding will not carry weight. Until the Church manages to reclaim ethical standing in the realm of sexual matters, it will have no voice in the realm of sexual morality. The Church needs to stick to the spiritual world if it ever hopes to reclaim a place in this world.

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.."

No, the Catholic church does not understand. The plausible pro-life alternate was intrinsically evil, which is why voters, including Catholics, voted for Obama. For the Catholic Church to urge voters to base their decision on a single issue is ridiculous.

While it may be fine for a priest or bishop to speak out on political issues as an individual citizen, to do so with the force of the church behind you, as they do when they threaten excommunication, is illegal political interference. The church should be told in no uncertain terms to muzzle its clergy or it will lose its tax-exempt status.

For all its attempts to modernize itself and appeal to more people, the church still acts like it is mired in the Dark Ages.

Mr. Waters,
Contrary to your statement it should be noted that Fr. Newman states that he is not denying Communion to anyone. The end of the article you referred to states:

Asked if he would actively deny the sacraments to Obama voters, Newman said he won't because the church teaches that no one is denied communion unless it would cause "grave scandal," such as in the case of a notorious public sinner.

bshea82

Okay, your are not "Catholic". What you describe as your beliefs is shared among all Christians yet you do not understand what you profess. Christ did not just proclaim love, but he also proclaimed repentance from sin. You want the love without having to repent.

The pollsters also don't ask how many of those 54% of Catholics actually attend church either. You have quite of few of those Kennedy Catholics that show up at Easter and Christmas yet still cling to the moniker "Catholic".

You also do not understand the programs the Catholic Church has for women in need and women facing difficult life choices. Maybe next time you are in Church, you can pick up a bulletin and check for one of these opportunities to volunteer and help out at one of these shelters or clinics.

Finally, if you think it is okay that forty million children have been killed in the womb since Roe was legalized maybe you should find a Church that supports your view.

"The plausible pro-life alternate was intrinsically evil." Really? You are saying the John McCain is intrinsically evil? I understand Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac Killer, Hannibal Lecter... But John McCain is intrinsically evil? That's just as crazy as saying a vote for Obama will result in eternal damnation.

The Church has become a caricature of itself, a caricature of dogmatic zeal. We need to stop being the Church against abortion, and start being the Church of Jesus Christ. How can we convince people that babies have souls, when a lot of people don't believe in souls? Spread God's word, not His wrath.

What a wonderful world this would be if only organized religion, all of them, failed to exist. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

c_halasz wrote: "bevjims1, you insult the intelligence of everyone on this board. Nuns are as VALID as priests. You insult the good works of Catholic Sisters everywhere in your statement."

No, just the one I saw taken to the hospital after attacking a child during a mental breakdown, and the alcohol I saw brought into the nuns quarters, so much they needed handcarts. And if nuns are just as "VALID" as priests, why can they not become priests or bishops or archbishops or cardinals or popes?

c_halasz wrote: "All you are accomplishing is an underlining of the dangers of alcohol culture in red ink."

Yes, alcohol is a societal problem, but one which is more of a problem among priests, where 17% were found to be alcoholic compared with 10% of American society. I am pointing out that living the lifestyle of a priest or nun is unnatural and as a result you see higher percetages of social problems, like alcohol, drugs and other issues. I'm not demonizing all the clergy and nuns, just pointing out that IMHO the lifestyle the Catholic church dictates for its clergy is unnatural and leads to abusive behavior more so than a natural lifestyle like that found in protestant churches.

c_halasz wrote: "And rest assured, as an active user of abstinence, I am no closer to abusing any child, sexually or otherwise— perhaps because I also never drink alcohol."

Alcohol was found to be a major factor in pedophile priest abuse, and I'm sure its a major factor with pedophiles everywhere. But while sexual abstinence is an absolute requirement of priests, abstinence from alcohol is not. Maybe the reverse should be chosen for its healthier results?

Mikel 4:

So I took the time to look up the definition of "Catholic" in the Catechism:

"(1376) The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

And:

"(266) "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16)."

Where does it say that you have to vote pro-life in order to qualify as being Catholic? But it's only the Catechism, after all... And of those programs you endorse (but did not cite), why did the Church remove funding for the Pregnancy Aid Center in Washington, DC? It is a pro-life center, but alas, they distribute condoms. Does this support pro-life programs? Does this support mothers in trouble?

And please, if you are a Catholic-- but not the Pope-- please don't have the audacity to accuse those around you of not being Catholic. It's rude and unchristian.

bevjims1:
"Alcohol was found to be a major factor in pedophile priest abuse, and I'm sure its a major factor with pedophiles everywhere. But while sexual abstinence is an absolute requirement of priests, abstinence from alcohol is not. Maybe the reverse should be chosen for its healthier results?"

I am in full agreement about the alcohol usage. I feel it ought to be classified as a dangerous substance. It can be lethal in relatively small doses, and does major damage to the empathy centers of chronic users, is highly emotionally and physically addictive, and also does damage on a genetic level.

But the whole idea of abstinence serves theological means that many people are simply not able to understand. It is not someone to be tinkered with.

Now I am sure someone will chime in about relative morality and where that might lead us but life is rarely black and white.

Is it absolutely wrong to kill someone when you have never heard of Christianity?
If you have been raised without Christianity and since birth you were taught to protect your family and one day kill an intruder trying to rape and kill your daughter is that absolutely wrong? I don’t think God is that blind.

I am always amazed at the simplicity we try to attach to these rules religion have when the complexity of the universe is staggering(the cosmos, particle physics, DNA, chemistry).

I believe in the afterlife along with some Supreme Being or intelligence. I also believe there is a science of dying and moving to another realm that exists that we just don’t understand yet. I find this a much more realistic answer than some wizard behind a curtain handing down judgment like Judge Judy.

MikeL4:

If you read my post properly, you would have understood that it is the hypocrisy of religious conservatives I am ranting about. I never gave a judgement either way about my personal views on war or on the death penalty and you have no idea of where I stand on these issues, or how I would vote. I am staunch independent.

I wasn't even judging Bush for his stance on war or McCain for his adultery. But what I was doing was pointing out the hypocrisy of those who have selected abortion as their sole 'morality' issue to the detriment of everything else. Who cares if a candidate is corrupt, or an adulterer, or a liar, or a boozer? So long as he is against abortion and gay marriage, FOR gun ownership, and calls himself a Christian - that's all that matters to the religious right. BTW, do you think Jesus would join the NRA?

I'll say it again: If you call yourself a Christian, which by definition means that you should follow the teachings of Christ, then you must follow ALL his teachings, not just the ones that are convenient and meet your political agenda.

I am vehemently against mixing religion and politics. There is a reason Thomas Jefferson called for the separation of church and state, and it was because he didn't want to live in a theocratic state. Neither do I.

c_halasz :

You never did give a proper answer the my earlier question.

If the Cathlic Church considers gay people to be "intrinsically disordered," then how do they reconcile having a gay Pope?

I am not going to argue whether the Pope is gay or not; it is pretty obvious except to people who are in denial. And it is not slander to say it because it is true, and being is not a bad thing to be, except for homophobes, such as youself.

The Catholic Church is aggressively homohphobic and anti-gay. Yet the leader of the Catholic Church, is gay. How do you reconcile this? It is twisted, contorted, and hypocritical. How do you have the nerve to condemn other people.

And if you deny that the Pope is gay, still Catholic crediblity is pretty much ruined because this is the impression that the Pope makes on most people who are not homophobic, and who are not in denial on these matters of sexuality.

"The Church has stated that Abortion is of the greater moral imperative because of the sheer enormity of the evil involved. The killing of over 40 million unborn children in the United States. The killing of over one million unborn children a year."

The number of people killed in WWII alone:
72,771,500

My numbers are greater than yours. Therefore war is a greater evil than abortion according to your logic.

DanielintheLionsDen:

I am not interested in arguing the subject of our Pope's sexual orientation when he is not a sexual being because of his vows for abstinence. This is a disrespectful line of questioning to begin with, and the ***intent*** behind it is in question. It is not obvious to me that the Pope is a sexual being at all. I refuse to understand people who need to make everything about lower thinking.

I also fail to see how this relates to the discussion at hand in and direct manner. It's as though we all want to force others to admit to our own sins in order to substantiate our fear of the confessional, or of admitting that there _are_ behaviors which are constructive, and behaviors which are the opposite in terms of how they relate to FAMILY, which is the backbone of any strong society whether or not this is convenient to all people.

I believe the education system has indoctrinated the lot of us into a lowest-common-denominator culture that results in these type of questions predominating the discussions of the masses.

As a child, I was taught that homosexuality was disgusting. And I thought in my naivete that my Grandmother was being judgmental. After being married to a closet homosexual for over 15 years, I can honestly tell you that many evils result in a family if a member is deviant from God's standard. Gay men are not good providers for women. They disdain boys, and treat girls like men. If this has been my experience, then who is anybody to deny me the right to remark on it? What if there are three million women just like me who are holding their tongues, likewise, because they are being censored by a majority who, likewise, are hiding their true gender orientations, and the **true** reasons behind these urges. For example, I am now told that the term, "douchebag" is used exclusively between "heterosexual" males, and yet, this is customarily an apparatus used by women to cleans themselves before intercourse. It has also come to my attention that boys throughout these sleepaway schools have been raped habitually by those of larger stature. That this culture has been taking place for centuries without the knowledge of their Mothers.

Having a standard does not imply a lack of tolerance, either. I do not wish to chop off your head because you would have sex with a man of my family. But I would stab you cold in the heart if you were to make advances towards my son!!! I have a RIGHT to make that distinction. I HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS SO ***LONG*** AS IT AFFECTS THE SANCTITY OF MY FAMILY, AND THAT OF FUTURE GENERATIONS!!!!!!!

Having a standard merely means we do ***not** strive for chaos, but _order_ in all we do. If those who deviate from God's teachings huddle together in an effort to drag an institution intended to uphold the sanctity of marriage and FAMILY, down to their lower standard, then chaos is king; not God.

I say these men and women ought to be excommunicated. I invite them to start their own church of sodomy and debauchery, and I decline any offers of support, but I would never force them to pay taxes because I disagree with the way they raise their own children, provided they could tolerate one another long enough to reproduce!

c_halasz : "But the whole idea of abstinence serves theological means that many people are simply not able to understand. It is not someone to be tinkered with."

If you are referring to sexual abstinence I disagree. It has been tinkered with in protestant churches, the Lutheran church being the closest model to the Catholic church. I'm not sure what theological issues would be harmed by allowing priests to marry. In the Lutheran and other protestant churches marriage seems to cause little effect on a pastor providing the same services a priest offers. The church synod seems to functional just as well from an administrative point of view.

As a young Catholic I was simply told priests had to remain celebite but was never given a reason nor have I heard a good reason to continue it. Just what theological means does a celebite Catholic priest have that a married Lutheran pastor does not? We use to joke about priests offering marriage advice to couples having trouble. No jokes about that in protestant churches where being married could offer a better means of ministering? Just curious...

I am not prepared to follow that line of questioning at this time. Suffice to say they ought to be able to go into retirement! ROTFL!

Seriously, though if you don't know why the light bulb works you got no right unscrewing that there lamp! :)

We gave the dog the Pope's nose on Tuesday, you know. :)

"After being married to a closet homosexual for over 15 years, I can honestly tell you that many evils result in a family if a member is deviant from God's standard."

Um, a survey consisting solely of your experience with your husband is hardly conclusive evidence condemning all homosexuals.

Did you ever think that maybe if society was more accepting, your husband wouldn't have felt the need to be closeted, and your problem would have been avoided?

"Gay men are not good providers for women. They disdain boys, and treat girls like men."

Again, what you mean is that one particular gay man did these things. I know numerous gay people who do not fit your stereotype (though none of them "provide" for women - duh, they're gay).

"If this has been my experience, then who is anybody to deny me the right to remark on it?"

You are free to comment on your experience. As in, "My gay husband did X." This does not give you the right to state that ALL gay men do X.

c_halasz

I think the quality and tone of your comments speak load for what your are and what your agenda is, and I don't need to say anything more.

Elbea:
If WWII was still going on, you might have a point, but since that evil is no longer with us, you do not. However, since you brought up WW II, understand the necessity of fighting that War. It was not a war for conquest on the United States part, so the logic of your argument fragments even farther.

The evil of abortion is still with us.

Bshea: If you want to quote the cathechism of the Church why don't you re-read the portion on Abortion. You seem to have missed that part. Or you choose to ignore it since it doesn't fit your view that you wish to impose on the Church.

See being Catholic is more than just liking Jesus because he had some feel good philosophies. Jesus preached love, but he also preached repentance from sin. He cautioned those that did not repent would be thrown into the darkness. He said those that did not repent would be thrown into the fire, among them, those that "murder".

As God told Jeremiah, "before you were formed in the womb, I knew you". Maybe those unborn children that you are so willing to condemn to death are being murdered as the Church says they are.

If you are unwilling to follow the tenets of the faith that you profess in the Catechism you cite, you should find a church that allows for the killing of unborn children. The Catholic Church does not.

Rotfl! My "TONE" is one of being married to a man who cannot admit to HIMSELF that he is gay because he was MISTREATED. To this day he is grateful to me for being his MOTHER.

SO MIND YOUR MANNERS!!! >:{

I'd be curious to know the personal experience of half the people who post here, seeing how ***all of us have motives. I say whoever is most honest is most confident and with reason,

You can't just sever a cause from it's birth and expect the rest of us to stand by and make like it's not happening that way because ***all*** of us are retarded.

Mikel4:

First of all, I am pro-life. I just believe that an Obama presidency will do more to effectively reduce the number of abortions by creating more favorable circumstances for economic growth for those women who would choose to have abortions because of poverty and desperation. Rewriting the legal code will not change hearts and minds, it will only alienate and polarize.

Secondly, you use the common quote "As God told Jeremiah, 'before you were formed in the womb, I knew you'. Maybe those unborn children that you are so willing to condemn to death are being murdered as the Church says they are." Jeremiah's not referring to unborn children, he's referring to unconceived children. "Before you were formed"? So now life begins before conception? Yes, God may know us because he exists outside of time, but that's not a practical application to this discussion on politics and religion.

Once again, even if abortion were made illegal, it would still be the woman's choice. No supreme court decision can reverse free will. A culture of life needs to be lived and evangelized, not imposed by a group of nine people.

Finally, I'll use the Catechism's definition of Catholic to define myself, not yours.

BShea82 Author Profile Page:

Mikel4:

?First of all, I am pro-life. I just believe that an Obama presidency will do more to effectively reduce the number of abortions by creating more favorable circumstances for economic growth for those women who would choose to have abortions because of poverty and desperation. Rewriting the legal code will not change hearts and minds, it will only alienate and polarize."

But Ron Paul was all on that! Obama is only good for the interim if that's your thinking.

I mean— when does it come down to "That dick-head drinks tons while I do not engage in substance abuse?!!"

When do we get to wear the crowns of our achievements? AFTER we've made all ***your*** mistakes just like you made 'em?!

God himself would curse you for this insanity. He's probably up there right now saying, "Scratch the bit about the wine, Mother!"

"If WWII was still going on, you might have a point, but since that evil is no longer with us, you do not. However, since you brought up WW II, understand the necessity of fighting that War. It was not a war for conquest on the United States part, so the logic of your argument fragments even farther."

But the war in Iraq and Afghanistan ARE still going on. We are on the verge of a war against Iran and heaven knows how many innocent people that one will kill. So you are indeed wrong - the evil still DOES continue! As does the evil of the death penalty.

The point was that the post attempted to purely use numbers to justify the magnitude of the evil. And based on that logic, there are greater evils than abortion.

c_halasz

You are an obnxious freak. You are not fit to judge gay people. You are not fit to judge anybody.

I am quite sure that the Catholic Church does not need people like you to further tarnish its reputation even more.

Awww… take ye drunken, sorry arse, and find ye all in wooded snow. With naught but whisky, wine and rum, ye stumble, aye, and pale the fool.

But yea, our muscles, big they be, and aye, we force the issue thus— in doing, slay the reason why.

______________________

And if having feelings, and being able to express the full spectrum of them makes me a freak, then I'll be the Queen of Freaky-land to your LOT. :)

I am not proud to say that I know how it feels to be drunk, and I'd rather forget it. There was a time when not everybody knew such a feeling. :/ I remember being that way naturally as a child! Do you remember your childhood, and reference it with your own young? :)

I am guessing all "respectable" women never have a drink? ROTFL!

Everyone wants an hors d'oevre, but we're all tripping over the elephant in the cosmic living room of life! :D

Smiley face for president!!! :)

Martha, STAY OUT OF THIS! >:{

;)

Bshea82:

Like I said, if you are going to use the Catechism to define yourself as Catholic, you should use the Cathechism to define abortion and your support for it are immoral. You are not pro-life when you vote for political candidates who do what they can to make the killing of unborn children easier.

As you choose to misunderstand the partial quote of Jeremiah let me expand it further "before you were formed in the womb I knew you, before you were born I consecrated you." Still think he was talking about pre-life. He was talking about knowing our souls and forming us. So therefore, we are not just tissue residing around not becoming living until we take our first breath. We are human beings with a soul.

Sadly, most women do not kill their unborn children because of poverty or economic desperation. Most women kill their unborn children because the child is not convenient at that point in their life. Obama can do nothing about that. Save your justifications for yourself.

You choose to align yourself with those who kill unborn children. You therefore set yourself at odds with the Church. You try to rationalize the murder of unborn children by saying well I think things would be better this way or that way.
Read what God's Church has to say, not what you want it to be.

Again, if you find the killing of unborn children acceptable please find a church for yourself that accepts this.

The Catholic Church does not.

First let's study the bible from a biblical sense then let's look at the the other Christian faiths from a historical stand point.

When it comes to life - it is sacred. God did not abort Adam and Eve. He only banished them from Heaven (paradise). Choice is a God given gift, He gave it to the angels and also to Adam and Eve. Just because we have a choice doesn't mean we always make the right choice. Choice is between good and evil. Its very basic. Apply it to everything you do in life. Just don't forget to add that the choice should be for the good of others not necessarily yourself. We need to get away from the "ME" ideology. Lucifer didn't. He was an angel with a choice.

All christian faiths with the exception of the Catholic church were founded by men who broke away from the original church. The original Church was founded by Jesus Christ and handed to Peter and his successors. The Apostles were all Men. Are we now to question God's will? Are we now taking the role of God as creator by deciding who lives and dies? Where in the Bible does it say that God gave women providence over the church? I am not against women holding office within the Church, becoming Nuns or doing the will of God. I can't find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus asked a women to be an Apostle. Maybe the confusion stems from the words disciple and apostle which we are also called to do. Each of us have many talents that we can use for the good of others. God has a reason for creating us as we are and he also has a reason for giving us the human body that we posses. The aberrations that we see all around us is directly related and proportionate to the sins that we as part of the human race committ.

The founders of the other Christian churches were sinful men just like you and me. One can say that even Peter had sins, but this is because sin exists. Adam and Eve cannot really be blamed for that as it was Lucifer who cares for that domain. But getting back to my point and according to the His Word the(Bible), God asked Peter to build His church. If you research a little more you will find that all other christian denominations were founded 1500 years after Jesus' resurrection. Most were created because they did not agree with the will of God and/or the influence of the preciding Government. Even the ones that started earlier started over 300 years later.

If you want to take that into perspective, just compare it to our founding fathers and the Constitution here in the USA and how far we have gone from their actual goals. Seriously, if you do some research you will find that our founding fathers were highly religious christians and many of the laws that we have now are in no way shape or form close to what our founding fathers were preaching. Take a moment to read the historical documents and you will find many correlations to the Bible. Yet today we have taken God out of our lives. I certainly do not want to cause a division between the christian churches. This is not what Christ wants us to do. We just need to be able to respect each other and learn God's Words together cause ultimately what God wants is for us to be with him in Heaven. So what does that mean? It means we must sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others so that they may get to heaven. Atheists need not reply. That is a whole different discussion. Love in Christ.

Mikel4:

So I took your advice and looked up abortion in the Catechism:

"(2272) Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society."

So a mortal sin is formal cooperation in the act of abortion, in this case, the person who procures the abortion. Therefore, simply voting for a candidate who would allow for abortion to remain legal is not a mortal sin, nor is the candidate in a state of mortal sin. Some bishops may disagree, but as of now, the Catechism, not individual bishops- or indeed an entire conference- dictates dogma. It is not material cooperation, as you have argued, given the declarations of the Catechism.

Immigrant1 wrote: "So what does that mean? It means we must sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others so that they may get to heaven. Atheists need not reply. That is a whole different discussion. Love in Christ."

So an atheist cannot get into heaven no matter how he helps his fellow man? A mafia boss can commit crime his whole life then be absolved by a priest on his deathbed and get into heaven, but an atheist who does nothing but good works his whole life cannot? Pardon me but I do find this a bit strange. I mean, what would Christ have said about this? I can only imagine he would say both could get into heaven.

I also find it strange how God had made himself so open in the past, according to the bible, but hides from us today and must speak through "priests", a concept of many religions where religious control is exerted. Can you blame an atheist who sees no evidence of God, and, to the contrary sees evidence that refutes much of the bible?

To believe in the God of the bible is to believe in a 6000 year old earth, that animals and man have no commonality, that starlight from stars more than 6000 lightyears from earth must have been created in transit, that radiocarbon dating and other scientific dating techniques are vastly flawed. That fossils were put in place to confuse us. That the "missing link" which believers have demanded of scientists, which have been found, must not exist and are a conspiracy to bring down the church. That kangaroos were saved from the flood by Noah's ark, disembarked on Mt. Erarat and hopped to Australia over oceans and seas not to mention all land animals in Australia, New Zealand, and Japan.

Look, I understand that faith means believing something that cannot be proven, but in some christian denominations it has come to mean believing in that which has been disproven, like the earth's age. Why would God play with us like the Greek Gods? Is it a heavenly sport to see how to get people to believe in you without showing yourself and putting information to the contrary everywhere? And is God's whole goal to have men believe in God or is it to love your fellow man? Christ taught the later but the Church demands the former.

bevjims1, this is where we have to look at context.

Here— come into **my** world. Come way in here, where only my interpretation exists, so I can show you the rules.

THIS is why it has to be about PRACTICAL things. RELEVANT things. What scripture would otherwise be useful?

It is scientifically proven that fish oil contains essential fatty acids, and is an important part of a diet. But we had rules which reminded us of this *without* having to be **able** to understand ***why***.

Get it?!

WE _CARED_ FOR OUR FLOCKS. WE DID NOT DUMP THEM IN TOXIC WASTE LAND FILLS!!!

BEVJIMS1.

I might even concede the mafia boss over the atheist but take it one step further and use the old Eskimo analogy.

The Eskimo has never heard about Christianity. What would happen to him if he committed a mortal sin he never new about? I have heard God makes “an exception”.

I love the end of this analogy. So a Priest goes to the artic and tells the Eskimo about Christianity so that in the end the Eskimo now has to obey these rules to get into heaven where before “God would make an exception”. The Eskimo responds to the priest, “So why did you have to tell me?”

The Bible can not stand the test of basic logic and certainly has a miniscule number of answers for the variance and complexity of the universe. Does this mean we should burn the Bible? No of course not there is wisdom contained in the Bible, but to accept it as absolute on everything seems a little out of touch.

Religion tends to get stuck in the past when it could be used to help explore the future, which in my mind is the study human consciousness and its link to God. There is a great book if you are into a deep read call the Quantum Enigma which tries to link quantum physics to consciousness.

Once we realize we are better than what we are we will start acting like it. Jesus was an example of what we can become, not an example of something we will never be.

Their offspring had a chance of coming out healthy and competitive, because we understood the DANGERS OF INBREEDING! How obvious does it have to be if you have brains at all?

Anybody who has ever listened to a rock, or the ocean, or nearly died, understands that it's never too simple, and yet, always within reach. The answer is *always* God-given. But first, we have to open our ears to it; we have to forgive ourselves before we can see His will. The only way to do this is to admit our sins.

It is never painless. But worthwhile?

I ask you this, how much would you pay to look inside eternity, and comprehend how tiny and insignificant all of it is, and still keep the strength to care! LOL!

So, we are to believe that our great benevolent God worries about the aborted children when He himself causes untold number of spontaneous abortions(ie., miscarriages).

Don't forget that the Great One also has devised wonderful genetic diseases that cause INFANTS to be born that live maybe a year with great suffering(think Tay-Sachs disease). If the Intelligent Designer created our method of inheritance, He's got to take the blame on this one too (or is the Devil a geneticist too?).

Spare me your tears and indignation against those aborting fetal tissue- perhaps they are those 'closest to God' as the mimic His so wise ways.

As so many say, "There will always be evil." But MY God would never even think such things much less guide them into existence. It is man, in his sin, that conceives such things.

Each child is woven into the fabric of his parent's lives, and choices we make determining what use His knowledge is to us in determining the path of our genetic heritage– so long as we are made aware of His presence. It is for this reason we *must* be enabled to correct the mistakes of our Fathers, lest we repeat them and further damage to the very same areas of existence. Each generation must make brand new dents in our collective understanding of how our humanity relates to God. Each generation must be free to honor their parents, and their children in ways that God determines through his gifts to us all.

Circumstances are God's gifts to us and if we listen carefully to His Word, we may understand how even the most wretched circumstances are blessings. In this way, evil can only further our efforts towards good. It's all about why and how. That's all there ever is. :) Everything else is just interpretation, and then it comes around again to how, and in answering this effectively, why. Dizzying, perhaps, but so it was meant to be.

And those who disagree ought never marry those who agree. I think this is evident.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "So a Priest goes to the artic and tells the Eskimo about Christianity so that in the end the Eskimo now has to obey these rules to get into heaven where before “God would make an exception”. The Eskimo responds to the priest, “So why did you have to tell me?”

Excellent story and it is telling about how religions can get stuck within their own logic. My personal favorites are:

1) How can christians say the big bang verifies the act of the creation of the universe as described in the bible (let there be light) if the same science also says the universe is much older than 6000 years as the bible also indicates?

2) If all land animals survived the great flood only by being on the ark according to the bible, how did the land animals get off the ark and to Australia, the Phillipines, Japan, New Zealand and all other islands with land animals?

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "The Bible can not stand the test of basic logic and certainly has a miniscule number of answers for the variance and complexity of the universe. Does this mean we should burn the Bible? No of course not there is wisdom contained in the Bible, but to accept it as absolute on everything seems a little out of touch."

My two favorite books on ethics are the bible and Aesop's Fables, with the later providing more practical lessons while the former is more about rationalizing more complex ethical behavior.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "Religion tends to get stuck in the past when it could be used to help explore the future, which in my mind is the study human consciousness and its link to God. There is a great book if you are into a deep read call the Quantum Enigma which tries to link quantum physics to consciousness."

Be careful about quantum physics and consciousness. There is the famous quote about quantum mechanics: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you do not understand quantum mechanics". Quantum phenomenon is making its way into all kinds of pseudoscience books. I read one called the "Conscious Universe" which tried to explain how at the instant of creation all matter and energy was in an entangled state and thus all of the universe is connected with consciousness being that connection. But the book ignores that the minute an entangled particle bumped into another particle the quantum fluctuation collapses and no more entanglement. So be careful when reading this stuff about consciousness.

For me its simple. Consciousness does not exist as we think it does. Humans are no more conscious than any other animal. We are stuck in our habits, instincts and natural drives to eat, have sex, fight, you name it, just like every other animal. And I would add religion to that. Humans the world over seem unable to exist without god(s). Some are simple, others complex, but man without gods is just not normal. Its part of our nature, like squirrels burying nuts this time of the year. We cannot help it, and those that do not believe probably at one time did believe, even if the god was Santa. Belief in the divine is just human nature. Once you understand that, and that all humans are basically religious by nature, which includes superstitions, its easy to sit back and see humans for what they are, animals following their instincts.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "Once we realize we are better than what we are we will start acting like it. Jesus was an example of what we can become, not an example of something we will never be."

I agree to an extent. Look at where we are. War used to be the norm in the world, now it is the exception. Charity is normal too, even governments do it. So I see the world today as being much better than when Christ lived, and its even better than he could have imagined. Jesus always spoke of kings but today democracies out number kings. Jesus could not have imagined science, or science curing disease, or enabling the blind to see, or even traveling to unknown continents. Jesus had no idea the stars are other suns, but thought they were the "firmament", lights shining through from heaven. What Jesus did show however was that the human instinct towards self preservation was not always the best way to survive. That leap of consciousness over instinct was his gift to mankind. And others making similar leaps has brought the world to where it is today. What we should learn from this is that humans can make leaps of consciousness over instinct. We just need someone to show us how. It does not require religious belief to overcome instinct, but our nature mostly makes that difficult for us to do.

Dear Mr. Waters,

The premise of your article, 'Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin,' is flawed in many ways.

In your article, you say:

"I'm a Methodist and we'll serve communion to just about anyone with a pulse"

This proves that you just don't get it.

You see, only Catholics and a few Orthodox Churches believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Only a validly ordained priest can consecrate a host, thus enabling transubstantiation to occur.

Methodists do not believe that "communion" is really truly Christ Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity...and even if they did, it really would NOT be His body/blood/soul/divinity unless the host was consecrated by a Catholic priest, because Christ gave that power only to His priests, which were the Apostles, the first bishops, and anyone they subsequently ordained to be priests. This is called apostolic succession.

You see, Christ founded His Church on Peter (ref Matthew 16:17-19) and Jesus delegates all His power to the Apostles (ref Matthew 28:18-20 and again in Luke 10:16) including the power to discipline and legislate (ref Matthew 18:17-18).

So, since Methodists broken away from the Catholic Church, they no longer can lay claim to Apostolic Succession and thus "communion" in a Methodist church is NOT the real presence of Christ.

Because of that, you could receive your "communion" (in a Methodist church) and not be profaning our Lord's body & blood even if you voted for a pro-abortion politician (Obama) when a plausible pro-life alternative (McCain) exists. You would still have cooperated in the election of an individual who supports and will work to allow an intrinsically evil act (ie.abortion), which is a mortal sin, but you would not have compounded that by profaning the body of Christ.

For Catholic's however, Christ is really truly present, and as St. Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians (ref 1 Corinthians 11:23-29) anyone who "eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" (which represents a sacrilege, which is a mortal sin, which is what Fr. Newman was talking about).

I hope this helps.

Other problems in your article.

Fr. Newman is not saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin nor is he saying that freedom of speech and thought is a mortal sin. How did you make the leap from what he said to what you wrote? You grossly misrepresented him!

The big issue here is this, abortion is evil. It is the murder of an innocent, unborn child. Oh yes, this is child, a person, created in the image and likeness of God.

It is a scientific fact, that the life of a human being begins at conception. Back in 1989, there was a custody case over seven cryogenically frozen embryos that a couple had created at a fertility clinic prior to their divorce. As part of this case, one of the expert witnesses testifying was Dr. Jerome Lejeune, a world-renowned expert in human genetics. In his stunning testimony, Dr. Lejeune brought to light scientific findings that bear directly on the topic of human origins.

I pray that you come to understand that Christ's Church, the Holy Catholic Church, whom Jesus promised to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (ref John 16:13), stands for truth and defends life and earnestly desires that all mankind know, love and serve God.

BEVJIMS1.

I agree with much of what you wrote. I think there is some difference between man and animal on a conscious scale. We are aware that we are self aware and that is a big deal.

“If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you do not understand quantum mechanics".

They actually refer to that often in Quantum Enigma. You could also apply that quote to other topics.

“If you think you understand God, then you do not understand God".

“If you think you understand human consciousness, then you do not understand human consciousness ".

I would propose books like Quantum Enigma and Conscious Universe are our first attempts at bring consciousness and science together. They may be way off the mark but at least people are looking/contemplating.

With out searching there is no discovery.

Catholic1 wrote: "This proves that you just don't get it. You see, only Catholics and a few Orthodox Churches believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Only a validly ordained priest can consecrate a host, thus enabling transubstantiation to occur."

You know, I grew up Catholic but never heard the explanation of why this is so. Christ offered the first bread and wine and based on the story explained how they were symbolic, not actually transformed substances. There is no mention of the apostles exclaiming how they were actually eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood. So where does the transubstanciation come from?

Catholic1 wrote: "Methodists do not believe that "communion" is really truly Christ Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity...and even if they did, it really would NOT be His body/blood/soul/divinity unless the host was consecrated by a Catholic priest, because Christ gave that power only to His priests, which were the Apostles, the first bishops, and anyone they subsequently ordained to be priests. This is called apostolic succession."

And when did this transubstanciation be determined? Do the apostles mention it in their writings?

Catholic1 wrote: "You see, Christ founded His Church on Peter (ref Matthew 16:17-19) and Jesus delegates all His power to the Apostles (ref Matthew 28:18-20 and again in Luke 10:16) including the power to discipline and legislate (ref Matthew 18:17-18)."

When did Jesus delegate his powers ONLY to the apostles? I do not remember Christ ever mentioning his message was only for members of a club and only club members were allowed to spread it.

Catholic1 wrote: "So, since Methodists broken away from the Catholic Church, they no longer can lay claim to Apostolic Succession and thus "communion" in a Methodist church is NOT the real presence of Christ."

I see, Methodists are kicked out of the club. Did Christ kick them out? Would Christ kick them out? Who would Christ have kicked out of his club? Just another example of man using Christ for inclusion and exclusionary purposes, something Christ never did.

Catholic1 wrote: "Because of that, you could receive your "communion" (in a Methodist church) and not be profaning our Lord's body & blood even if you voted for a pro-abortion politician (Obama) when a plausible pro-life alternative (McCain) exists. You would still have cooperated in the election of an individual who supports and will work to allow an intrinsically evil act (ie.abortion), which is a mortal sin, but you would not have compounded that by profaning the body of Christ."

Whew! Methodists must be relieved!

Catholic1 wrote: "For Catholic's however, Christ is really truly present, and as St. Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians (ref 1 Corinthians 11:23-29) anyone who "eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" (which represents a sacrilege, which is a mortal sin, which is what Fr. Newman was talking about)."

So voting for Obama makes one unworthy? McCain talked about a 100 year war in the middle east. Under Clinton abortions went *down* because of stepped up family practice. When Bush cut all of that abortions went up. So which politician favors abortions and which works to reduce them and is it a sin to vote for the politician that would reduce abortions? I believe that under Obama abortions will go down. Would that make me unworthy in the eyes of the church? In the eyes of Christ?

Catholic1 wrote: "Other problems in your article.
Fr. Newman is not saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin nor is he saying that freedom of speech and thought is a mortal sin. How did you make the leap from what he said to what you wrote? You grossly misrepresented him!"

But voting for Obama is a mortal sin according to Newman. Is it also a sin for Catholics to pay taxes to a nation that allows abortion? Or obey its other laws since the nation is evil to the core? Just what other sins can a Catholic citizen commit by being a functioning American citizen?

Catholic1 wrote: "The big issue here is this, abortion is evil. It is the murder of an innocent, unborn child. Oh yes, this is child, a person, created in the image and likeness of God."

Then if that is your religious belief do not have an abortion. I was cooking a pork loin on my grill during Passover but my jewish neighbor didn't mind. Why do you insist on requiring your religious beliefs to be everyone's beliefs? Abortion in this nation is limited to the first trimester. At that stage a "child" does not exist for everyone, and not everyone believes there is a soul there. So please understand that what the pope tells you, and you believe, is not necessarily truth for everyone. Respect others beliefs as you expect your beliefs to be respected!

Catholic1 wrote: "It is a scientific fact, that the life of a human being begins at conception."

Oh NOW science matters? But transubstanciation which has NO scientific basis is how you explain why methodists are outside the realm of God?

Catholic1 wrote: "Back in 1989, there was a custody case over seven cryogenically frozen embryos that a couple had created at a fertility clinic prior to their divorce. As part of this case, one of the expert witnesses testifying was Dr. Jerome Lejeune, a world-renowned expert in human genetics. In his stunning testimony, Dr. Lejeune brought to light scientific findings that bear directly on the topic of human origins."

What you fail to mention is that this was not a custody battle, it was a property dispute. And what about people who order fertility clinics to destroy their embryos? Is that a mortal sin? Why are Catholics not railing against that. It happens every day in the thousands. But not a peep from the church or its members. Sin seems to be a very relative thing in the church.

Catholic1 wrote: "I pray that you come to understand that Christ's Church, the Holy Catholic Church, whom Jesus promised to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (ref John 16:13), stands for truth and defends life and earnestly desires that all mankind know, love and serve God."

Then how many Our Fathers does a Catholic need to pray for voting for Bush, who as governor put to death many prisoners? Bush signed orders for the death penalty. Obama will not force anyone to have an abortion. Yet not a peep from the Church about Bush and the death penalty that he and his party, including McCain, support. Your arguments are very narrow, as though abortion was the only sin in the world, yet it seem the church stood by as Hilter slaughted millions and Bush has supported the death penalty, signed death orders, and killed hundreds of thousands in a preemptive war the church does not condemn as a mortal sin to support. Cherry picking which sins to withhold communion over seems very political and something Christ would cringe at.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "I think there is some difference between man and animal on a conscious scale. We are aware that we are self aware and that is a big deal."

And an animal is not self aware? That may be true of the lower animals, whose brains are almost robotic to the point where they can be modeled on a computer (the cockroach brain has been so modeled). But higher level animals I believe are as self aware as we are. Their instincts, drives and how they see the world is limited and different than ours, and certainly their ability to reason is much less than in humans.

As an anecdote I'll give you my dog as an example. We had a party the other night and I walked into a room with food on a coffee table. My dog had his mouth a few inches from the potatoe chip basket. He looked at me, back at the basket and at me again. I just stood there looking at him. He backed away, looked at me again and then laid down. You can't tell me there was no thought going through his brain, weighing the reward versus consequences of the actions he was about to make. He could see what the future would bring based on his actions. He was aware of me himself.

And what I always have found interesting in dogs is they can learn to understand human speach. Chimps and Gorillas cannot. They learn hand signals. The theory is that over the thousands of years that dogs and man have cohabitated, dogs evolved to understand speach to a level enough for them to hunt with man. I've always wondered though if they also think in words, like us. My guess is they think in terms of smells since that is their greatest sense, but still, an interesting notion.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "I would propose books like Quantum Enigma and Conscious Universe are our first attempts at bring consciousness and science together. They may be way off the mark but at least people are looking/contemplating."

Understanding consciousness is an interesting subject but one that is still in the realm of science and not something that has enough research that you can start putting it in laymans terms. And quantum mechanics is just so, well, almost magical, that I am seeing lots of books using it to explain almost anything. We need to remember that quantum mechanics only operates at the subatomic level. That's a lot smaller than even an atom. To say that the enigmas at that level explain the enigma of consciousness which happens at the cellular level, trillions of times larger in scale, is asking for ridicule.

SpiritualMongrel wrote: "With out searching there is no discovery."

True, but linking consciousness and quantum mechanics based on little of anything is not searching, its not even speculation, its making a buck by writing books for the curious who understand neither consciousness nor quantum mechanics. I call it the Von Daniken effect, a man who made millions writing about "ancient astronauts" for those who did not know better. Today we see people finding a dead Bigfoot or more recently a Yeti and it makes the news big time when no one has even found a bone or fossil from such a creature anywhere. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, except when the general public is the audience, where an extraordinary claim can make big bucks.

Animals have their own communion with the sacred. It happens without our interference. :) We must not "enter fear" into the lives of others needlessly. It's not always easy not to, but at what point do our faces just shrivel into scowls? Surely, they fall that way for a reason? LOL!

Catholic1:
Thank you for your post.

"You see, only Catholics and a few Orthodox Churches believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Only a validly ordained priest can consecrate a host, thus enabling transubstantiation to occur."

I was born and raised Catholic, and still love much of it though I am not practicing as I did when I was young. Love much of the Catholic ritual, the Eucharist not the least. But I do not believe this PR that only a "validly ordained priest" can consecrate a host. Indeed, they go through huge training and are devoted in their lives to God in the way that they see Him and follow Him. And that undoubtably makes the transformation more likely.
But to say only an ordained priest can give you the Body of Christ is bogus, and hugely disempowering to boot. That is a conditioning and belief system that secures heirarcy and lineage. Leaves all mystical power in the hands of church patriarcy and you the lamb following the sheepard. The sheepard is not Jesus or the Divine Prescence directly, but the priest of your parish.
Now there are great parish priests and I do not want to negate them. But if the bread becomes the Eucharist it is because God has made it so. Through the receptive hands and open heart of a servant in love with his Master, yes. But I have not yet met a priest that had the power of transformation of one thing into another.
This of course is come of the crucial core of disagreement that brought about Martin Luther and Protestantism. Roman Catholic exclusivity.
Point is that it is you, in the end, that allows the Body of Christ into your body. YOUR receptivity either allows the Divine to unfold in you or resists the unfolding.

Which brings me back to this essay. Bishops declaring voting for a pro-choice candidate as a mortal sin is purely political and is the exercise of sheepard authority over the flock. Minds that are operating politically can not, in my view, remain the seat of pure love service that would allow them to transform bread and wine. They are patriarchal politicians.
And in passing mortal judgement, not so many steps away from certain Roman judges...

Catholic1

You wrote, "You see, only Catholics and a few Orthodox Churches believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist."

This is simply not true.

Then you wrote, "Only a validly ordained priest can consecrate a host, thus enabling transubstantiation to occur.", this is not even close to Catholic teaching, a priest does not consecrate the Host, God does. Listen to the prayers at consecration.

You then quoted Mr. Waters, ""I'm a Methodist and we'll serve communion to just about anyone with a pulse"".

You then commented, "This proves that you just don't get it.", maybe you are the one that "just don't get it", Jesus, besides, reaching out to all "with a pulse" also reached out to the dead, those without a pulse.

You then wrote, "Methodists do not believe that "communion" is really truly Christ Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity..", maybe you should asked "Methodists" what they believe, you might be surprised, and then saying it is "Christ Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity", all I can say is I know it is Jesus because when the Holy Spirit came into my body, He revealed this to me.

A question, do you know it or believe it? To know and to believe do not mean the same thing, God knew that I needed to know some things to do what He chose me to do.

You then wrote, "So, since Methodists broken away from the Catholic Church, they no longer can lay claim to Apostolic Succession and thus "communion" in a Methodist church is NOT the real presence of Christ."

You say that communion in a Methodist Church is not the real presence, I, myself, would not be so presumptuous as to tell God what He can and cannot do, one of the things that God mentioned was, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts", we may try to be stingy with God's Grace but do you think that He is?

You also wrote, "I pray that you come to understand that Christ's Church, the Holy Catholic Church,", have you ever heard of Vatican II?

The "CHURCH" is not confined by the physical boundaries of the Catholic Church, so to speak, I suppose this, among other reasons, is why some wish to ignore Vatican II.

Lots of people try to put God in a box, it doesn't work, God has a Plan and His Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The priest is only doing his job. Here is the canon law on the matter:

"Any Catholic who supports intrinsically evil acts (abortion, euthanasia, cloning, same-sex marriage, etc), votes for them, or otherwise financially supports or furthers their cause, cannot remain Catholic. Catholics must adhere to Catholic teaching or they separate themselves from the Church; the Body of Christ. Such Catholics are excommunicated by virtue of the acts themselves. A latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication is triggered when they support, enable, and perpetuate such obvious and egregious evil (Cf. Code of Canon Law, Canons 1364, 1398; Canon 1329, §2). They are in turn forbidden from approaching the sacraments as the result (Cf. Catechism of Catholic Church # 1463)."

j_phillips

Should one follow canon law or God? God happens to be a BEING OF PURE LOVE so God's Law is Love?

I suppose someone can excommunicate someone else from a religion but NO HUMAN BEING can excommunicate another human being from God.

Do you think that Catholicism is based on canon law or God?

Did Jesus say, come follow My Church or did He Say, "COME FOLLOW ME"?

Is it better to be in the "good graces" of the Church or in the "GOOD GRACES" of God?

Some of the "religious" people of Jesus's day were spiritually deaf and blind, is it any different today?

Do you remember the two people in the temple that Jesus spoke about: the one patting himself on the back since he thought he was just so so good in following the "rules" and the one asking for mercy considering he knew that he wasn't up to snuff, so to speak?

I am a Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith. Jesus did not become One of Us to bind us up with a bunch of rules and regulations and Jesus did not pick anyone to be anyone else's conscience.

There seem to be some in the clergy that seem to think that they should be cops, judge and jury maybe they should be clergy and proclaim the "Good News" if they know what it is and administer the sacraments rather than trying to be obstacles, God can look into hearts and minds, mere humans can't and even if they could, it is not their place to do it.

God gave us a conscience and we are responsible for how we use it and the clergy is not our conscience, each member of the clergy has their own conscience but none of them is the conscience of anyone else.

See you in the Kingdom, in case you don't know it: God wins, satan loses, a tie in unacceptable, the captives shall be released and the dead shall rise.

The word catholic means universal there is a reason for that.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Judge not and ye wont be judged. The Catholic church really has gall. After all the incidents of child abuse, and other crimes and the repeated coverups, makes me vomit. As far as I am concerned the church is full of nothing but pius perverts, and look forward to the day the church collapses, I mean its dwinding now, but hey its thier own fault.