P(r)aying for Faith, Hope and Charity

Exactly how is Dan Wolfe, or the others, determining who has or has not been attending AA, or another church? Are synogogues taboo? It's not like AA is going to date- and time-stamp your hand, or something to prove you were there.

This all sounds very bizarre. (I also find it creepy.)

It also makes me wonder if they wake people up in the pews if they happen to fall asleep during their mandated worship attendance. What happens if they attend, but read something else? I mean, there are plenty of people who would follow the letter of the law without one iota of the spirit behind it; do they have a way of 'dealing' with that, or do they let it go?

Lets not get to carried away with charity of the Mormons. If their tithes were sent directly to homeless shelters, the money would increase ten fold but alas this money first goes the LDS "handlers" who use most of it basically for investments in businesses, building ornate temples and to support universities like BYU.

e.g.

From: lds-mormon.com/time.shtml

"The first divergence between Mormon economics and that of other denominations is the tithe. Most churches take in the greater part of their income through donations. Very few, however, impose a compulsory 10% income tax on their members. Tithes are collected locally, with much of the money passed on informally to local lay leaders at Sunday services. "By Monday," says Elbert Peck, editor of Sunstone, an independent Mormon magazine, the church authorities in Salt Lake City "know every cent that's been collected and have made sure the money is deposited in banks." There is a lot to deposit. Last year $5.2 billion in tithes flowed into Salt Lake City, $4.9 billion of which came from American Mormons."

"The Mormons are stewards of a different stripe. Their charitable spending and temple building are prodigious. But where other churches spend most of what they receive in a given year, the Latter-day Saints employ vast amounts of money in investments that TIME estimates to be at least $6 billion strong. Even more unusual, most of this money is not in bonds or stock in other peoples' companies but is invested directly in church-owned, for-profit concerns, the largest of which are in agribusiness, media, insurance, travel and real estate. Deseret Management Corp., the company through which the church holds almost all its commercial assets, is one of the largest owners of farm and ranchland in the country, including 49 for-profit parcels in addition to the Deseret Ranch. Besides the Bonneville International chain and Beneficial Life, the church owns a 52% holding in ZCMI, Utah's largest department-store chain. (For a more complete list, see chart.) All told, TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million. "

"Members of the church celebrate the Lord's Supper with water rather than wine or grape juice. They believe their President is a prophet who receives new revelations from God. These can supplant older revelations, as in the case of the church's historically most controversial doctrine: Smith himself received God's sanctioning of polygamy in 1831, but 49 years later, the church's President announced its recision. Similarly, an explicit policy barring black men from holding even the lowest church offices was overturned by a new revelation in 1978, opening the way to huge missionary activity in Africa and Brazil. "

Bottom line: Mormonism is a business cult using religion as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business.

Mr. Waters is omitting some important facts. The Mormon church is worth an estimated 60 billion dollars. All tax free, all from businesses and tithing. Not only is the 100 million only 0.16% of the total assets, but the "help" for non members is nothing but a scam to recruit new tithers. So in mathematical terms, you Mr. Waters give me a million dollars and I donate $ 1500 to charities. Not a bad deal, especially since I can keep $ 998,500 without taxes!
BTW, 60% of all charitable, non profit organizations in the US and Canada are secular.

It's not truly charitable if you place requirements upon those whom receive it. Religion is insidious in that it starts small, offering meals and such in exchange for a moment of your time or what have you. Once they get a foothold in your mind, the begin to pull your strings in accordance with their agenda. Before you know it they have you forking over 10% of your assets, including themselves in your will, and allowing for the indoctrination of your children. Jonestown anyone?

I'll admit my bias to start with by saying that I am an active Temple-going LDS.

People can criticize other ways that the Church spends its money (building Temples and involvement in other businesses), and I could sit here and explain to you guys why those things are the way they are. But that's all besides the point of the article, and it's kind of dissapointing to see this turn into another place for Mormon-bashing.

The point of the article has to do with churches that accept federal funding (tax money), which comes from folks like you and me regardless of whether or not we follow that religion, and those churches then being unwilling to submit to federal rules and regulations. And the only point to the article's mention of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was that it is not at all impossible for religious institutions to engage in significant charitable activities WITHOUT federal funding.

To the point of Church critics on this, I can only say - mind your own business. I pay my tithes, and do so with a pretty good idea about how much is coming and in and how much is spent, having served as a finance clerk in two wards and having served a couple of Bishops Storehouses as well. But the point is that I gave that money to them of my own free will and choice, and we're not taking money from you in the form of federal subsidies.

Regardless of how you feel about religion, what we are doing is really none of your business. I would say though that you have a vested interest in how tax dollars given to other churches as part of those "Faith-Based Initiatives", and that is what the article is about.

Really the Mormons don't take assistance? They make money by the fistfuls and still provide for NON Members? Wow! And some of you can only criticize and call them a cult? Jealousy doesn't look good on the Christian Taliban.

This is not Christian charity. Placing conditions on those who are hungry is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus, or with teachings of the Hebrew scriptures.

"TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million. "

This amount of money is not taxable. Therefore LDS and all other religious groups are ripping off the citizens of this country for billions and billions of dollars in lost taxes. Local governments get no real estate taxes. the 10% tithe to LDS is written off as tax deductible.

If religious orgs in this country paid taxes there would be no deficit!

"The point of the article has to do with churches that accept federal funding (tax money), which comes from folks like you and me regardless of whether or not we follow that religion, ..."

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Exactly!

All Churches are tax-exempt but they still use a whole variety of public services and often occupy valuable real estate that would otherwise be taxed at the going rate. The tax dollars that pay for police, fire, schools, etc. have to come from somewhere! So even if LDS isn't taking extra tax dollars for specific faith-based programs, they still feed at the taxpayers trough leaving the rest of us (religious or not) to pick up your tab. Relinquish your tax exemption and then you'll be free and clear to spend "your" money as you wish without getting called to task for continuing to mooch off the taxpayers trough.

dmisigoy:

As a tax payer I have to mind your business too until your, and any other church, pays income tax, property taxes and capital gains taxes like every other business or citizen. Your club is selling an invisible product for 180 years, accumulated incredible wealth and is not paying a dime in taxes! So yes, you and your cult take money from all of us because we have to make up for the shortfall.

Cry me a river that churches don't pay taxes!!! You would complain if you were hung with a new rope!

Uh, folks, is there a particular reason for jumping on the LDS church? It seems to me that it's the First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana that's the subject of the article.

Yes, I still find it bothersome that religious institutions are not taxed. But I feel the same way about corporations who hide from the IRS by using off-shore accounts. But I don't find the LDS any more objectionable than any of the others on that score.

The bottom line in this debate is very simple. There are massive social service needs to be met in the United States, especially in the inner cities, from alcohol and drug dependance to feeding the homeless and sponsoring after-school programs. You can talk all you want, but no one has demostrated real success in meeting these needs other than faith-based organizations. Most that accept government funding, are maybe getting 25% or less of their total funding from the government. Few rely on the government 100% because they fear the government will one day put demands on them: abandon your faith or abandon government dollars. The choice will be easy, they will abandon the government dollars and many more needs will go unmet as a result. Giving money to faith-based groups to allow them to "do more" is only good business sense. The return to society is much greater than the minimal investment government is puttiong into these groups.

If they were true "Christians" they wouldn't ask what they believed. They would just help. Time for the true "Christians" to start doing what they preach. Get rid of the enormous palaces called churches that fit 30,000 people, stop driving around in Limos and private planes and start using the money to help people. Jesus would be ashamed at what true "Christians" do in his name.

"You can talk all you want, but no one has demostrated real success in meeting these needs other than faith-based organizations."

"Most that accept government funding, are maybe getting 25% or less of their total funding from the government. Few rely on the government 100% because they fear the government will one day put demands on them: abandon your faith or abandon government dollars."

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GregDSmith,

First of all, over 60% of all charities are non-religious, secular charities so you are completely wrong on that point.

And if your faith compels you to unfairly discriminate against others based on some archaic religious doctrine, then you really don't deserve a single dime of taxpayers money in the first place.

Taxpayers should never be forced to subsidize religious discrimination that is clearly and rightly unlawful for everyone else.

If you're going to accept taxpayers' money, then you must play by the taxpayers' rules.

Isn't that fair enough?

Freestinker,

"First of all, over 60% of all charities are non-religious, secular charities so you are completely wrong on that point"

Are you including organizations like the Red Cross in your 60%? If so, I would advise you to look at where they get their funding. For example, I have heard that upwards of 75% of the Red Cross "meals" program is provided by Baptist congregations through the Southern Baptist Convention.

elife1975,

"Once they get a foothold in your mind, the[y] begin to pull your strings in accordance with their agenda"

Wow. So your average person, apparently, is too stupid to say "No thanks" or "Thank you for your hospitality but I'll pass on God for now"? That must be how all of those "free vacation if you sit through a tour of the property" scams work.

Maybe the "everyone is a victim" liberal crowd has it right after all? Maybe we're all just so defenseless and ignorant that we're easily brainwashed into Christianity (or some other religion). Or maybe we're easily brainwashed into buying a house that someone with a 5th grade education would understand to be unaffordable?

Bad things, man. Bad things.

And by far the largest charitable contributor is???????? THE USA TAXPAYER VIA PROGRAMS LIKE FOREIGN AID, FOOD STAMPS, SSI, CHEAP HOME LOANS, BANK BAILOUTS, FORECLOSURE ASSISTANCE, MEDICARE, MEDICAID, NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND PROGRAMS, GRANTS TO WHOMEVER, WHATEVER AND WHENEVER, AND FAITH-BASED INITIATVES?????

CCNL: I can see how you came to your conclusion that the LDS Church "is a business cult using religion as a front..." after citing the Time article. The article points out how the LDS Church uses some of the monies it receives from its faithful members to expand its own financial reserves and businesses. But what the article didn't mention is the fact that none of the the Mormon Church members (including clergy) get paid a penny for their service. Every missionary you see on the street is paying their way, every Mormon bishop is donating every hour of church service. Choir directors, organists, teachers, librarian, even the president of the church is serving without pay. Therefore, there is no selfish monetary reward for members of the church to do what they do.

KARLJ4 Said:Choir directors, organists, teachers, librarian, even the president of the church is serving without pay. Therefore, there is no selfish monetary reward for members of the church to do what they do
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Really??? How do they pay the mortgage? Food, electricity? Pennies from heaven? Or do they all work at church owned businesses who are indirectly funded by the taxpayer?

IT BOILS DOWN TO ONE WORD, CONTROL.

ELIFE1975: Church members pay their mortgates and bills the same way that everybody else does...they go to work. The difference with the LDS Church is that there are no paid clergy. This means that bishops, choir directors, teachers, ect. have day jobs and then serve without pay in their church responsibilities. For example, my father has a been an LDS bishop twice for about five years both times. He spent an average of about 20-25 hours a week fulfilling his responsibilities without making a single penny. To make money, he was (and still is) a music teacher in the public schools. I am currently the choir director at church and also teach and work with the young men. To make money, I am a military musician. This is how the entire church operates no matter the position.

It's great that those who believe that I, as an atheist, will spend an eternity burning in hell yet nevertheless picture themselves as the epitome of morality. It's super that these same institutions exist tax free even though "earning" respectable incomes yet nevertheless manage to give a pittance to charity (while indoctrinating).
It's incredible that in the 21st Century that the majority of our citizens still believe in ghosts, devils, angels, spooks . . . and gods, and that I, as an atheist, have zero chance of attaining high public office should I confess my unbeliever status.

Globalone

You said:

"Maybe the "everyone is a victim" liberal crowd has it right after all?"

I get a little tired of your obnoxious passive aggressive attitude and comments.

I suppose God is a Republican? I suppose anyone who disagrees with you is in a "liberal crowd?>"

For your ignorant information, "everyone is a victim" is something you have made up in your mind. You do not know what liberalism is or what makes a person a liberal. Just anyone you don't like, I guess, is a liberal. Black people, gay people, people who point out your ignorant Christian hypocrisy? All part of the wicked liberal crowd.

Do not prey on people and then beat up on them because they are victims, and then beatup on liberals because they have empathy for your victims.

God ain't no Republican, I can sure tell you that.

karlj4,

And no doubt these "volunteer" teachers, preachers, choir directors and prophets work for Mormon businesses or businesses that do "business" with Mormon companies. They call it "religious nepotism".

Freestinker:

You say "over 60% of all charities are non-religious, secular charities" -- You have no way of proving this. Most churches perform charity work without having to form a separate 501(c)(3) organization -- indeed, churches for the most part, don't have to report a whole lot to the government. So your numbers are unlikely to be true. And, half the organizations in Washington, D.C. are 501(c) tax exempt organizations, even though they spend most of their time lobbying the government for special interests (not helping anyone but themselves). If you want to see real abuse of the tax exempt status -- it's there!

I now work in alcohol and substance abuse. You would probably consider my organization to be "right wing" and Republican, but we work side-by-side with Muslims and other groups to deal with the issues and do so with great success. I know few people who have been able to overcome addictions without a spiritual experience. Of course, if people believed as you do (that when we die we just turn to dirt) there would really be no point to overcoming an addiction problem in the first place.

You can say all you want, but anyone who works in faiththe trenches knows the facts -- the faith based organizations are the ones getting the work done.

Freestinker,

You further state, "If you're going to accept taxpayers' money, then you must play by the taxpayers' rules."

Well, last I checked, most taxpayers do support faith-based organizations and most taxpayers do support a faith. Most people in America will say "if you can feed the hungry, house the homeless, help raise the kids and kick the drug habit, and do it at a fraction of the cost it would cost the government to do the same thing -- then do it! And go ahead and give them a little Jesus too, if that's what you want." We're just talking common sense here. We can debate the separation of church and state issues all we want, but 99% of Americans could care less. They just want someone to get the job done and faith-based groups are willing and ready.

DMisigoy wrote:

To the point of Church critics on this, I can only say - mind your own business. I pay my tithes, and do so with a pretty good idea about how much is coming and in and how much is spent, having served as a finance clerk in two wards and having served a couple of Bishops Storehouses as well. But the point is that I gave that money to them of my own free will and choice, and we're not taking money from you in the form of federal subsidies.

Regardless of how you feel about religion, what we are doing is really none of your business. I

______________________________________-

Mormons make it my business when they cross state lines with their strong PAC-like organizing to help anti-gay initiatives in California, Alaska and, now, Hawaii again. It is my business when Mormons fraudulently claim Federal tax exemption while working as a right-wing political organization. Tax fraud is taking money from the Federal Government.

Hey "Coloradodog", nice catch on "DMisigoy."

The Mormon Church claiming tax exemption from income taxes is, indeed, tax faud. They are stealing in proportion to income tax that they are not paying. They are stealing from me and you.

I agree. Mormons are nothing more than Robo-Tithers for a Right-Wing political front group.

They believe in a false prophet/scriptures, which is their right. They believe they will become equal to God, which is their right. They deceive potential converts, which is their right. They are sworn to follow current prophet's political orders, which they certainly did in California last fall. And they did so to kill the Equal Rights Amendment in early 70s.

But they are not entitled to do the latter without the Mormon Church paying taxes. It's a scam on American citizens. I attended for a year and I can say they preach and promote politics among each other on Sunday in their Wards. They think they are being subtle, but they are not.

And don't forget the prophecy that a Mormon leader will emerge and rescue the US from a devastating crisis -- White Horse Prophecy. Look it up.

They believe only they are true Christians. And all other, non-Mormon churches/faiths are an "Abomination in the eyes of God."

They are a Latter-Day John Birch Society without the billboards.

Maybe the gay activists in California can bring them down via the courts. I pray.

Did I get off-topic? Apologies.

Dan,

"I suppose God is a Republican? I suppose anyone who disagrees with you is in a "liberal crowd?>"

-- You suppose wrongly on both accounts.

You do not know what liberalism is or what makes a person a liberal."

--- Maybe not. My thoughts on liberalism have been established by the words and actions of people who claim to be liberals. (i.e., Congressmen, college professors, etc.,) If someone shares those viewpoints, I assume that they are liberal leaning.

"Do not prey on people and then beat up on them because they are victims, and then beatup on liberals because they have empathy for your victims."

--- Apologies, but I truly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

ccnl:
To my knowledge, not a single person in my congregation or any surounding congregations work for any church owned companies. The only church owned business that I even know about around here is Bonneville, the parent company that owns WTOP and other radio stations. I can assure you that the only reason that I listen to WTOP is to help me get to work in the morning and not for church position promotional reasons. I serve in my church because I love serving and I think that my motivation is typical of every active member.

Globalone

I am trying to say that I often find your snarky comments to be snide and obnoxious. You seem to be completely unaware of this. The way you present yourself to the world is your choice and your problem.

You certainly make it very, very clear that you hold liberals and liberalism in contempt. And liberalism is whatever you define it to be, and whatever you do not like, a-la-Ann-Coulter. Yet if I point that out to you, you act innocent and unaware.

Are you really innocent? I do not think so. Are you unaware? I cannot comprehend how you could be, but perhaps you are.

Just go ahead with you snarky comments, offered up, in prentenious light-hearted jest. It is me, and everyone else who is wrong, not you.

Jesus said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” Matthew 22:21

When did taxes become the things that are God's??

Dan,

Sheesh. Are you reading from a thesaurus?

And if you don't appreciate my comments - don't read them. Problem solved.

There are a number of things I hold in contempt, most of which contribute to flushing this great country down the toilet. Yes, "victimization" that is championed a great deal by the Left is certainly one of them. However, I also hold in contempt the lack of fiscal restraint that became an epidemic under the Bush administration. Fortunately (or unfortunately if you prefer), that hasn't been a topic on these threads so I haven't communicated those feelings.

Finally, I have never claimed to be perfect or with flawed reasoning. I am more than willing to rethink my positions if a plausible argument is offered. (Plausible, by the way, in regards to the current topic does not include "brainwashing").

Again, your failure to adequately understand the english language has most likely contributed to some of this confusion.

karlj4,

I recommend searching much deeper especially in the congregations near Salt Lake City.

Any faith-based group that takes money from the government and provides a social service to people, such as food and clothing, should not try to indoctrinate people into the group's religious beliefs. I believe to do so is a violation of the separation of church and state. If such groups do try to force people to accept their beliefs in exchange for social services, those groups are actually running businesses and should be taxed as businesses. Real charitable help does not mandate that people must accept any set of beliefs. However, it is in the interests of religious groups to force people to accept their beliefs in return for help, which puts people in need at a disadvantage. I personally do not believe that any religion does anything for the good of people. Every religion is looking out for its own finacial interests. Religious groups want government funds for faith-based initiatives for one reason---the money. The good of those in need is quite secondary.

Globalone

Nevermind. I am overly sensitive. Go ahead. Trash everyone and everything, with a good humor and a kind Christian heart.

We all deserve your wrath, after all; somebody has flushed American down the toilet.

igo4it said yesterday:

If they were true "Christians" they wouldn't ask what they believed. They would just help. Time for the true "Christians" to start doing what they preach. Get rid of the enormous palaces called churches that fit 30,000 people, stop driving around in Limos and private planes and start using the money to help people. Jesus would be ashamed at what true "Christians" do in his name.

I say: Amen

"Wow. So your average person, apparently, is too stupid to say "No thanks" or "Thank you for your hospitality but I'll pass on God for now"?"

It's not that simple. I've got two younger brothers with substance abuse problems.

Both sought help from the Salvation Army.

The Salvation Army conditioned any help on my brothers' participation in religious services. Services that included a very active political viewpoint (Republican, anti-gay, anti-Jewish, etc).

It wasn't a matter of saying "no thanks'. The proselytizing was so pervasive and so hateful that people in real need felt so uncomfortable that they actually left rather than put up with it.

"To the point of Church critics on this, I can only say - mind your own business."

But it is our business.

When your LDS facility is on fire, it's the local fire department (paid for by everyone's tax dollars).

When you build or use a facility the roads, sewer, etc., to get to it are paid by taxpayer funds.

And when you use your religion to make life difficult for me and my friends, literally making my elderly friends eat cat food in their 'golden years, destabilizing our family units, just because you think we are sinners, I tend to take that personally.

"But the point is that I gave that money to them of my own free will and choice, and we're not taking money from you in the form of federal subsidies."

Yes, you are. You are using your political might to make sure federal benefits like survivorship benefits, exclusion from estate taxes, military spouse benefits, etc., are withheld from me and my friends.

Yet you have no problem using my tax dollars for those very benefits for you and your friends.

Not to mention the infrastructure that supports your churches.

ccnl:
What do you expect me to find if I dig deeper with congregations in and around SLC? Mormons who happen to work at LDS owned businesses? Mormons who shop at LDS owned businesses? Uh...OK. I'll concede that point. But, with all due respect, so what? Are those folks only working and shoping there so that they can somehow further their church career or make their church more money? Is that what you're saying? Another issue where I feel like you're being unfair is your original point that the LDS church is some sort of business scam that only exists to make lots and lots of money. Since I've alreaady informed you that none of us make a penny from our service, I'm not sure how you can make that claim. Are you saying that I and my fellow church members follow the commandment to pay an honest tithe only because I want my church to get really really rich? I can assure you that I do what I do for reasons much more meaningful than what you're suggesting.

hillman writes:
"'To the point of Church critics on this, I can only say - mind your own business.'

But it is our business.

When your LDS facility is on fire, it's the local fire department (paid for by everyone's tax dollars)."
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Churches are non-profits. So is the Red Cross, the Red Crescent, the ASPCA, the NSO, and about 5000 groups in the Washington DC area. Non-profits are not taxed, by law. Simply change the law so that non-profits are taxed, make sure that it passes the bar of the First Amendment (difficult but not impossible), and you can feel vindicated.

Karlj - don't expect to make much progress with CCNL. Pick a random "On Faith" topic, and start reading posts...

America was founded by religious people. Those who don't want to hear anything about religion should migrate to communist states. In those states, they will realize how stupid they are.

Nobody is forcing his kind of religion in that shelter, so what's the big fuzz?

The First Ammendment is a very good law but just don't let the idiots interpret it.

Why not just help someone out becuase they are in trouble?

Taking advantage of those less fortunate in their darkest hour by cramming religion down their throat is just sick. But religion gets alot of converts that way.

karlj4: paying tithes is the oldest scam in the book. Why would god need money? He creates the universe but u need to fork out cash for him?

Seriously, wake up buddy.

"Man shall not live by bread alone". Is it wrong to offer that "other bread"? They still have a choice to reject that other bread if they wish to. What is important is that it's available when they wish to have it.

Tithing means giving that 10% of your income to the needy. God doesn't need it but the needy does.

There are talks of shelving the production of F-22 Raptors. How stupid can these people get? These guys are very short sighted.

I take great amusement is seeing comments like "Jesus would be ashamed at what true "Christians" do in his name." I guess the people on here don't know that Jesus commanded us to go into the world and spread the Gospel to all people. In Christian circles we refer to this as the Great Commission.

I'm also amused that when you try telling people about Jesus "that's offensive speech," yet when you tell someone they came from a rock, it's "protected speech" by the 1st amendment. And, by the way, we're going to use your tax money to shove it down the throats of your children, even against your will.

You want to talk about double standards that make no sense at all? The liberals who pretend to be so open minded, stop being open minded when someone disagrees with them and has an idea that puts theirs to shame. It has nothing to do with doing the right thing, but pure shelfish pride.

Actually the LDS like so many religions suffers from the "angel" syndrome i.e. Moroni syndrome in the case of the LDS.

To wit:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

Bottom line: As with the Muslims of the world, Mormon life revolves around a "pretty, talking, fictional thingie". To say the least that is one rich "angel" and as with Islam it screams out with "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL !!! i.e. you do not need angels or the LDS to be good people. Send your tithes directly to homeless shelters and the poor. It is time to cut out the money-grabbing middle MEN.

Spidermean:
"tithing means giving that 10% of your income to the needy"

So thats why there are so many superchurches and preachers rolling around in armani suits and private jets.

The needy are only part of the "business" of religion unfortunatly.

"Well, last I checked, most taxpayers do support faith-based organizations and most taxpayers do support a faith. Most people in America will say "if you can feed the hungry, house the homeless, help raise the kids and kick the drug habit, and do it at a fraction of the cost it would cost the government to do the same thing -- then do it! And go ahead and give them a little Jesus too, if that's what you want." We're just talking common sense here. We can debate the separation of church and state issues all we want, but 99% of Americans could care less. ..."

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GREGDSMITH,

If your religion needs to feed off the public trough in order to provide social services, it's not really a true Christian charity is it? It's more like a Robin Hood charity than a Jesus charity, isn't it?

In this case, your religion/church is really just a middleman for distributing government resources which makes it much more like a government agency than a church and as such, it should comply with the Constitution and other non-discrimination laws as long as it accepts government funding.

And if your religion/church needs public funding to serve a little Jesus, then it must not be a compelling enough religion/church to survive on its own. If it's not compelling enough to survive on its own, why should taxpayers (of all people) be forced to prop it up?

If, as you claim, most taxpayers would be happy to fund other people's religious institutions ... then they are already free do so straight from their own pockets.

Why must they/you enlist the government to pick mine too?

And just because most taxpayers "could care less" about violating the 1st amendment by taxing me to pay for someone else's church/religion, that doesn't make it right for them to do so. Saving a few bucks on social services will never justify compromising our religious liberty.

Believe me, I understand your vested interest in forcing me to pay you to spread your religious opinions behind the facade of charity. It's been a pretty good gig for you, I do agree. Without my help, your church might not survive, you might be paid less or be out of a job altogether so I can see exactly why you think government funded religion is a good idea.

Frauds, deceivers, and those spreading a false religion are not new to Christians. Living in spirit and truth of the goodnews of the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not for sell. Jesus did not sell fish after he preached to the multitude, but he fed them and they had not worked. neither did they gather fish, nor clean up afterwards, they ate and departed, alot of deceivers have forgot the message. Calling a congregation christian without the obedience to the word, will, and way of God is nothing and void according to the good news gospel of Jesus Christ. Which is what Jesus done, not allowing those who heard the word to leave physically hungry, and unable to return home. He told his followers that the multitude would die without something to eat before they set out on their journey home.