Cross of '09

Good article.

It seems as if Christians are all about supporting religious freedom - as long as Christianity is the religion being spread. When it comes to other religions being practiced on the school-grounds, well, that's just not American.

I'm an athiest, but I don't really care if you want to say some words to God at a graduation ceremony. Just be equally tolerant if other people wish to pray to a differet god instead.

Reminds me of the quote by Henry Ford, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."

Excellent article! A few years ago, I researched prayer in the schools. A surprising finding: When prayer was institutionalized, student violence increased.

"It seems as if Christians are all about supporting religious freedom - as long as Christianity is the religion being spread. When it comes to other religions being practiced on the school-grounds, well, that's just not American."

Notably. Often shamelessly. In fact, you can hear them openly say, 'How can we get the school to promote Christianity without allowing someone else (usually lumping Pagans in with whatever else seems undesireable or preposterous, at that) to do the same?'

Which is kind of the point of keeping the school out of these matters in the first place.

It's pretty plain to see, though, Farnazz, about bringing religion into the schools correlating with increasing violence: they've kind of turned it *into* a form of aggression against kids that are minorities or suspected of it. Another form of 'clique,' perhaps.

It echoes the tone of too much of religion in politics, ...particularly here in regards to people getting, err, demonstrative, as though they were rebelling against something: as if some 'enemy' were trying to take something away from them.

"Evil," as quoted. I guess they learned too well something from the Religious Right.

And the Our Father aka the Lord's Prayer, as we know it, was not even said by the historic Jesus!! Apparently today's kids are not being taught well in Sunday school.

e.g.

"Hal Taussig

In Jesus Before God. The Prayer Life of the Historical Jesus. (Polebridge, 1999), Taussig develops his thesis that the Lord's Prayer is a collection of several prayer lines that were significant to the early Q community. His discussion of "Forgive us our debts" occurs on pages 89-92 and represents a good example of his argument. He concludes:

Situating this sentence prayer within its social context makes clear that it arose from certain specific situations in which Jesus found himself. It did not, within the lifetime of Jesus, belong to the Lord's Prayer, which was the product of the generations after Jesus. ... after Jesus was gone his followers in Galilee formulated a general prayer in his name, combining fragments from Jesus' own prayers with other material to create an institutionalized prayer in Jesus' name. As the various versions of this Lord's Prayer from the second half of the first century were passed on, the meanings of the individual prayer sentences were generalized and taken out of context. The sentence prayer about forgiveness made a gradual transition from forgiving one another's debts to forgiveness of sins."

See many versions of the Lord's Prayer and a review at http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb120.html

About six years ago in Maryland, the high school likewise was banned from conducting a planned prayer at graduation. The valedictorian, upon completing her address, asked for a minute of silence, that each member may mark the day in his or her own way.

A moment into the moment of silence, a parent stood up and began loudly shouting the Lord's Prayer. Several others joined in, and shouted the rest of the words.

I would argue, however that they were NOT praying. They were using the words as a club against those they perceived as "robbing" them of their "rights" to "pray" at graduation.

I believe prayer is not words, but attitude and intent. The intent in this case was use use these words to express anger, not faith or relationship with God.

They used the Lord's Prayer as a weapon. The words that the Prince of Peace gave his disciples as a model for prayer, had been turned into a weapon.

This is not prayer. This is "taking the name of the Lord in vain."

To decline to participate in such displays, including the one David Waters cited above is not un-Christian; rather it is valuing the gift of relationship with God enough to keep it holy. One does not have to stand and recite verbally to pray. God knows what we intend. No power on earth can prevent true prayer. It is just as valid...perhaps more valid, in silence than when spoken aloud.

Unfortuntely, these "culture wars" will continue as long as those who participate will not accept that prayer is between the individual and God; it is not a public demonstration. The courts are absolutely right to give all religions...and no religion...equal standing in the public square. But, unfortunately, too many people will not accept this. Perhaps, as Mr Waters says, if they were a minority having to cope with the vocal majority they might have another point of view.

Pr Chris

Hey meany:

You said: The Bible said that America is a nation of God and a nation of the Devil. Soon the devil's portion will be destroyed. That's the prophecy.

Would you please cite Chapter and verse? There's no reference to America in the Bible.

Pr Chris

spidermean2 wrote: "THe real problem is NOT the prayer but the atheist idiots who think that they exist because the brainless earth made them just by pure accident and yet they can't recreate the "accident" itself because it happens to be so complex."

A little off topic wouldn't you say?

spidermean2 wrote: "Stupidity is self destructive and it's not a surprise why the idiots can't stand prayers."

I pray to God that you get well.

spidermean2 wrote: "The Bible said that America is a nation of God and a nation of the Devil. Soon the devil's portion will be destroyed. That's the prophecy."

Oh really? Where in the bible does it say that, or are you again making stuff up?

spidermean2 wrote: "So expect more protests to ban prayers until they are destroyed. God has given them up to America's enemies and it will happen soon."

So God caused 911? Did He also cause Katrina? Did the people who died deserve to die? For someone who can't even explain the simplest parts of the bible you seem to cite it a lot, never specifically, just enough to claim your wild imagination has some basis. It does not.

Let's try to get a law passed that if you're going to insist on putting the Ten Commandments up in public, you must put beside them the Three Footnotes:
I. Love God and your neighbor as yourself.
2. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
3. Pray not as the hypocrites do, in the streets and synagogues, where they may be seen of men. . .

As I've read the postings, I agree w/everyone, except for the rantings provided by, "spidermean2". Strange that he, who appears to be most slanted towards the Christian faith appears to be the most intolerant - or maybe not strange at all. "CalSailor", you made the most sense - as far as I'm concerned.

I posted that I agreed w/everyones comment except for "spidermean2"; that was before I got a chance to see "Garak's" remark - not very constructive.

I don't think prayer should be used as an act of defiance or to make a statement. I think it should be quiet, private and reflective.

Fellow Readers,
Consider the possibility that "spidermean2" is simply trolling, trying to get a rise out of you. Don't feed trolls. Ignore them.

So they're graduating without having learned about the First Amendement, then? I'm sure they'll do REALLY well in the future...

I wonder if the students felt like they broke a rule, which they did not, or made some sort of point. The stunt seemed coordinated. I wonder how much parent involvement there was. Regardless, I agree it was not prayer to God but a response those who protect us all from government establishing religion.

I hope the kids can see the difference between their proper act of individual prayer and a prayer led by school staff. Probably not, but hopefully they learned that in America religion is not suppressed, as their prayer proved.

Regarding the Pace, FL highschool students: The article doesn't give us many facts. Was reciting the Lord's Prayer a 100-year tradition at this highschool? Is the student body 90% Christian (at least nominally)? I think these things make a difference. If I lived in a country like Turkey, that is officially secular but is actually 95% Muslim, I would expect to be subjected to Koran recitations at my graduation. As long as I'm not forced to recite it myself, what's the big deal? If I go to a funeral or wedding for a co-worker, I bow my head respectfully when the pastor/priest/whatever is praying. That's just common decency in a multi-cultural society. I use the time to pray for my co-worker according to my own beliefs.

fr spidermean2:

>The Bible said that America is a nation of God and a nation of the Devil. Soon the devil's portion will be destroyed. That's the prophecy.

Um, one little problem here. America was NOT named as such when the Bible was written.

The prayer stunt is offensive to non-Christians and non-believers.

I have an idea--instead of stunts and gimmicks like this, why not live your life as Jesus would and lead by example? What's that? Not exciting enough?

Because protest like this just makes some Christians look like jerks. That commencement was for everyone, not just fundamentalist bible-thumpers.

Way to go.

Regarding prayer - if God had wanted us earthlings to talk to Him - he'd have left His phone number.
But maybe they haven't yet invented the phone up in Heaven. No scientists up there I guess, just bible thumpers. So no phones, no TV, no PC's. How boring it must be with only bibles to read and nuns and priests to hang out with.
I don't want to go there.

dmm1 wrote: "Was reciting the Lord's Prayer a 100-year tradition at this highschool? Is the student body 90% Christian (at least nominally)? I think these things make a difference."

No, they don't. The Constitution does not allow government to establish religion. Period.

dmm1 wrote: "If I lived in a country like Turkey, that is officially secular but is actually 95% Muslim, I would expect to be subjected to Koran recitations at my graduation."

That's because their secular government does not have our country's first amendment. You cannot compare Turkey and the US governments just because both are secular. The constitutions and laws are different.

dmm1 wrote: "As long as I'm not forced to recite it myself, what's the big deal?"

Peer pressure, intimidation, all the things Americans have discussed with respect to school prayer. It does not work. It is exclusionary. It violates the first amendment. Just what part of the first amendment do you not understand?

dmm1 wrote: "If I go to a funeral or wedding for a co-worker, I bow my head respectfully when the pastor/priest/whatever is praying. That's just common decency in a multi-cultural society."

Its also not a government run prayer. Expressing your religion in this country is free, and the reason you are free to express any religion you want is because government cannot establish or deny religion. The kids were free to pray on their own. The school was not allowed to lead a prayer. Its that simple.

dmm1 wrote: "I use the time to pray for my co-worker according to my own beliefs."

That is fine but when government authority decides on one prayer over another, even if the reason is that 99% of the attendees are of that religion, it esbalishes religion and it cannot do that. Government establishing religion hurts all religious freedom. You can only understand that when your government decides you will pray in a way YOU are not accustomed. By wanting the school to say THEIR prayer, they are trying to force their religion on others through government. Not cool, not constitutional, not American.

DMM:"Was reciting the Lord's Prayer a 100-year tradition at this highschool? Is the student body 90% Christian (at least nominally)? I think these things make a difference."

They don't, in America, or our public schools. Public schools aren't for 'Ninety Percent' .... They're for any and all.

They have the 'right' to pray, but turning it into an act of intimidation or political stunt to claim they were being oppressed by the 'evil' non-Fundamentalists, when they were by no means, shows they maybe didn't quite learn to think or live civilly while there.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if more than ninety percent there were Christians, but a certain gang took it upon themselves to claim for all of them that they wanted their big day disrupted with something exclusionary, complete with grandstanding for the media to misconstrue a moot point, not to mention deliberately divide a graduating class on what's supposed to be a day of celebration.

It's not that it's *offensive* for a non-Christian to hear that prayer, though it's certainly an *affront* to the humanity of others for it to be used as a wedge, not only between Christians and non, but Evangelicals and non.

It's probably actually the Christians who *don't* believe that's an appropriate display of their religion who might be torn between an inclination to join in on their own prayer and not-intimidating others.

Maybe there's a 'right,' but I remember darn well from school how some would look at you if your lips weren't moving, for a hard time later.

If non-Christians exercised that same 'right,' the same Evangelicals would be in a national uproar.

Someone said that these people would be offended if the prayer had been Jewish or Muslim. I will bet that they would be offended if the prayer was the "Hail Mary" which is certainly a Christian prayer and based on scripture. But these same "Fundamentalists" have a tradition of being Anti-Catholic. And, interestingly enough, the Catholic school system was founded in this country NOT because of a lack of prayer in the public schools, but what the Catholics at the time saw as Protestant proselytizing.

I am afraid this is more of a way to show dominance at the graduation and is more akin to a dog marking its territory than devote people really worshiping the way Jesus mentions Himself about the publican in the back or the people not letting others know they are fasting etc.

I thought I'd put in the text of the First amendment... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

These court cases that come up because someone is offended at the "free exercise" of others' religion (Christian or otherwise) are tiresome. I haven't heard of a law creating a right to be free from being offended. If atheists don't like to be around Christians don't listen. Christians who do not want to be around Muslims - love your neighbor. For Jews, "Hear, O Israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is One!" even if you don't agree with Christians they are praying to the same God. Let 'em pray.

The prohibition is on Congress, not on mayors, school boards, principals, teachers, etc. These are people too and have just as much freedom to practice their religion (or not). Don't keep someone from practicing their religion, encourage them. We need good people in government.

As long as you provide an opportunity for the other beliefs to be represented then there isn't a real problem. If you don't like someone else's religion, just be glad that you live in a country where you can practice yours (or to have none at all).

People who encourage these kind of “revolts” are labeled as intolerant. I think the real intolerance is not so much that these people want to pray, it is that some don’t want to tolerate them.

Very nice, thank you!!! whenever religious freedom is being protected, it is always the Christians getting their drawers in a wad. In my experience, it is because they expect they will be pandered to.

If the school calendar was changed so that only Jewish or Islamic holidays were the school holidays, there would be (pun intended) HOLY HELL to pay. But since school holidays traditionally fall on Christian holidays, the Christian families are already accomodated. So the families of other faiths have to make a lot more sacrifices to ensure their children make attendence.

And if I was a student at Pace High School and my classmates all burst out in the Lord's Prayer at my graduation, I would be scarred for life.

How many times has the so called "godless" ACLU supported "Christians"

Many time and the thanks they get is more juvenile name calling in the name of poor old Jesus

inflicting your religion on others is rude and nasty.

NO ONE stopped them from gathering early and praying , instead they believe they're entitled to make other students or parents or vistitor uncomfortable.

How childish, How rude, How unChristian

"Public school administrators, teachers and staff are government employees when they are at school or school-related events. They cannot participate in decisions or activities that 'promote, advance or endorse' particular religious beliefs."
-------------------------

Mr. Waters, and several commenters, have misread the 1st amendment. Please read it carefully - it doesn't say that the government can't promote a particular religion over others. It says that the goverment can't promote religion, period. So, allowing Christians to inject Christian prayer into a graduation ceremony, as long as they allow others their own religious prayers, is not legal. And it is also impractical. In an area such as Washington, D.C., complying with such a requirement would require 100 different prayers to be recited by different people at a graduation ceremony- not practical at all. And my guess is that evangelical Christians, as well as others, would be upset at the equal time given to others. The only fair policy is to keep religious worship and recruitment out of the public school programs altogether. Students can still pray at school, on their own time. Don't believe the lies that students aren't allowed to pray at school.

"....the Godly Christians vs. the Godless ACLU types. "

When Crosby, Stills and Nash sang "Teach Your Children" I don't think they were talking about Mary Allen's parents teaching her hatred as a neochristian Randall Terry Republican "moral value"

Speaking of the words of Jesus:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

They hijacked a graduation ceremony to promote their "religion." That merits some consequences.

Rescind their diplomas until they perform community service and can write an essay explaining the meaning of the establishment clause.

Most of them wouldn't be able to cut it, I'm guessing.

sauron wrote: "The prohibition is on Congress, not on mayors, school boards, principals, teachers, etc. These are people too and have just as much freedom to practice their religion (or not). Don't keep someone from practicing their religion, encourage them. We need good people in government."

So religious people are "good people"? Are they better than non-religious people?

sauron wrote: "As long as you provide an opportunity for the other beliefs to be represented then there isn't a real problem. If you don't like someone else's religion, just be glad that you live in a country where you can practice yours (or to have none at all)."

So you wouldn't mind the school's Muslim principle lecturing the graduating class on some of the tenents of the Holy Quron? You would be ok with that principle practicing his faith at Pace High School graduation? Or Muslim teachers starting your kid's class with a good 'ol praising of Allah? I mean, what's the harm, they're only practicing their faith as the first amendment allows!

sauron wrote: "People who encourage these kind of “revolts” are labeled as intolerant. I think the real intolerance is not so much that these people want to pray, it is that some don’t want to tolerate them."

It was intolerance. If the kids had spontaniously broken out in individual prayer no one probably would have noticed. But it was calculated and executed in protest to the school not providing a teacher led prayer. It was also legal since it was the kids doing the praying themselves, but that does not mean it was not intolerant.

I wonder what would have happened had a Muslim school principle laid down a prayer rug and started praying out loud, and handing out prayer rugs to kids telling them to prosper in the future they needed to pray to Allah as his religion requires. Would you just be glad that you live in a country where you can practice yours (or to have none at all)?

The Constitution's prohibition on establishing religion is not limited to Congress. That has been made clear consistantly by numerous court interpretations. You can read and get a better understanding about that here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pra9.htm
The kids want their school to violate the Constitution, and I'm guessing their parents are behind them. What a great way to get started off in life as a voting age citizen, by wanting the school to violate the Constitution to impose their religion on others.

Apparently, as some have already commented, they did not learn much in school about the first amendment. I would say they also didn't learn much in Sunday school. The book of Matthew, Chapter 6, verse 6:
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."
It continues with verse 9:
""This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name, "

Perhaps if Christians would learn to truly follow Jesus we would all be better off!

As a conservative Evangelical, I believe in the undeniable right of the students who prayed the Lord's Prayer at their graduation to have done so. There is nothing inherently "wrong" about their joining in prayer when taken at face value.
However, it seems to me that the attitude of these young men and women was combative and self-promoting, not worshipful and humble. It is shameful that they decided to forsake showing Christian love for their nonbelieving classmates by not respecting them.
I wish that these graduates had not misrepresented the attitudes and dispositions of the overwhelming majority of Evangelicals like myself. Of all the ways and contexts in which to say the Lord's Prayer, this was certainly among the least proper.

John Lennon had it right...

Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try
No hell below us, Above us only sky
Imagine all the people, Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too
Imagine all the people, Living life in peace...
Imagine no posessions, I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger, In a brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people, Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one.

On the Pace HS website the principal ays he most enjoys "watching students...grow...spiritually", and here's a course listing From the Pace High School handbook:

Introduction to Bible I/II .5 Credit each
Prerequisite:None Grade Level: 10-12 [Languages are only taught in grades 11-12!]
This course provides students with the opportunity to acquire a basic understanding of the Bible as a historical document through an overview of those significant events which have affected the world. Lab Fee: $5.00

Now what do you think the faculty's attitude is about creating an atmosphere of inclusion and tolerance for non-evangelicals? Why do I suspect that the analysis of "historical" events that "have affected the world" include a whole lot of "miracles"?

Certainly there is misunderstanding both ways, but let me give an example that highlights some of the frustration for Christians. In my school district in a San Jose, California suburb a few years ago, there was a holiday concert. It featured songs from a number of worldwide religions. From my standpoint, this was fine. I appreciate the rich musical tradition and faith of multiple cultures and nations. The school official expressed concern to my wife (the PTA president), however, over the number of Christmas songs features. In fact, at the time of a Christian holiday, Christmas, the program had basically no songs such as Silent Night or Hark the Herald Angels Sing. The "Christian" music that she considered excessive were "Frosty the Snowman" and other totally secular "Christmas" songs. It's this bias against Christianity that drives Christians mad. A religious Jewish song or a Buddhist song in the school is viewed by these people as a cultural expression to be honored; a religious Christian song is viewed as an unconstitutional attempt to promote a given religion.

People might actually listen to christians if they denounced the evalgenicals that drag their personal beliefs into the lives and doings of others.

I'm deeply spiritual and keep my religion to myself.

...And I would have thrown eggs at them for taking over everyone's graduation to shove their personal beliefs down the collective throats of the graduating class, the university, the alumni, donors, and the parents of students in attendance.

Who would Jesus offend on purpose?

Let's assume for a moment that reciting the Lord's Prayer is done in a gentle and worshipful way. As long as there is no disrespect for none-Christians within earshot, why make an issue of it? If the school administration was not involved in organizing the event, what is the harm here? Let that moment pass, or segue into a prayer of hope and blessing for the entire group of graduating seniors.

We have enough problems in the world without strangling spontaneous prayer. Anyone who objects to this type of episode may want to at least to consider hedging their bets. God may be of some assistance in helping us all maintain the courage and persistance to face the many challenges we have. May as well invoke any spirits who can lend a phantom hand.

At each of my three sons' graduation from a very nice public high school a thoughtful prayer was given at the beginning of the graduation ceremony by a local pastor. The "invocation" is a traditional moment in graduations of all sorts. What's the fuss?

"People who encourage these kind of “revolts” are labeled as intolerant. I think the real intolerance is not so much that these people want to pray, it is that some don’t want to tolerate them."

sauron

You know what *I* think? (apart from that all these 'prayer in schools' people only want 'tolerance' when they're whining it should be their religion, and only their religion, imposed on everyone. )

Instead of claiming 'Those who aren't praying with us now while we disrupt your ceremony four years coming are intolerant or 'just un-Christian 'evil' enemies.'

They could even have asked their classmates for the time. Instead of demanding all kneel to their thing. And heeded the results.

Cause, frankly, what seems to be forgotten here is that they weren't 'rebelling' against some 'exclusion,' they were taking a common moment of silence for *all* faiths to pray, and basically bringing a bullhorn into anyone *else's* time to pray or reflect as *they* saw fit.

They were the ones intruding on other faiths, not the 'defenders against evil' claimed.

"A religious Jewish song or a Buddhist song in the school is viewed by these people as a cultural expression to be honored; a religious Christian song is viewed as an unconstitutional attempt to promote a given religion."

Perhaps Christian music would be more acceptable if there were not a constant pervasive effort to enshrine Christianity as our official religion. Christian music is often seen as just one more step in that direction.

When was the Jewish or Buddhist scripture used as a wedge to separate the righteous from the damned as the Bible so often is?

Why is the Bible used as a club against non-Christians?

Why does it happen, as noted by Paganplace, "Maybe there's a 'right,' but I remember darn well from school how some would look at you if your lips weren't moving, for a hard time later."

Maybe Christians would do better if they spent their time teaching their children to be Christian. But then, they would first have to learn that themselves.

aclu does more harm than good...
they defend the other guy more than us...
come judgement day, they will be the first to go...

"aclu does more harm than good...
they defend the other guy more than us...
come judgement day, they will be the first to go..."

That'd be cause they're a *civil liberties* union,* not a 'Let's all threaten each other with Hells' union.

gferguso wrote: "The "Christian" music that she considered excessive were "Frosty the Snowman" and other totally secular "Christmas" songs. It's this bias against Christianity that drives Christians mad. A religious Jewish song or a Buddhist song in the school is viewed by these people as a cultural expression to be honored; a religious Christian song is viewed as an unconstitutional attempt to promote a given religion."

Just another example of why religion should be excluded from schools. Leave religion and religious expression to the experts and go to the experts for your religious needs. Public school is for learning, and asking them to lead or allow religious prayer is bound to fail at many levels.

I have no issue with these highschool kids saying the Lord's Prayer. I do have a problem if the school my tax dollars support arranges and promotes it.

I'd also like to ask these young men and women if everyone in their class is Christian and what they would do if a Muslim, Jew, or Hindu wanted to recite his or her prayer of choice?

DwightCollins wrote: "aclu does more harm than good... they defend the other guy more than us... come judgement day, they will be the first to go..."

So you speak for God? Does God see people in terms of "us" and "them". Sadly I think the kids at the graduation think God does. Again, a sorry way to start off as a productive, voting citizen in the land of the free.

Hey! Baptists, Moslems,et.al! Your right to swing your religious fist stops where my nose begins! We Sun worshipers are tired of your shenanigans and may pray for Father Sol to send you a prolonged heat wave or a climate change as a warning.

LAV: "Perhaps Christian music would be more acceptable if there were not a constant pervasive effort to enshrine Christianity as our official religion. Christian music is often seen as just one more step in that direction."

I think there's definitely that factor.

A lot of 'Christian Music' out there is actually pretty much divisive 'culture war' with some kind of stadium-synth-country schlock behind it.

Like is advertised *constantly* in a lot of places... the 'message' is exclusionary. Like it'd kill someone to have a little interfaith consideration in public or not have this stuff blaring in everyone's ear 24/7.

It's not educating anyone on somethng they don't know, which would be reasonably-legitimate, it's just trying to say 'You don't belong if you don't submit to our view.'

There's plenty of clearly-Christian music that speaks a little beyond these religious divisions. There's plenty of Christian prayers that are popular that aren't demanding everyone conform or claim everyone who doesn't worship the same way is *bad,* ....some arguably more appropriate for a graduation, too.

Someone said it well in a phrase I use myself, often. 'Territory-marking.' That doesn't serve anyone's God our our society, and most certainly not our educational system.

If that's all these Evangelical kids took out of four years of high school, well, no wonder some of the willful ignorance out there.

"Hey! Baptists, Moslems,et.al! Your right to swing your religious fist stops where my nose begins! We Sun worshipers are tired of your shenanigans and may pray for Father Sol to send you a prolonged heat wave or a climate change as a warning."

rhdavignon

You know, the beauty of actually revering the Sun is, you don't think that way.

Until I reached 5th grade I recited the Pledge of Allegiance as "I led the pigeons to the United States of America..." I was quite proud of mmyself. I now know that I was in error. Also about Santa Claus. We live and learn.

Thank you for finally presenting this clearly. I would point out that it is not just Christians that get this wrong. In what I consider to be one of the more egregious instances of Hollywood missing the boat on this one, there was at least one West Wing episode (and I love that show generally, so don't read too much into this) in which Leo McGarry believed that it was permissible to arrest two students for engaging in prayer on their own initiative prior to a half-time band performance. I am afraid that both sides of this debate tend to overstate their positions with regularity and both sides do significant damage to their own causes and ultimately to the country in doing so.

The comments to your post clearly indicate that many people still don't get the distinction (or possibly don't care about it - which disturbs me more). Simply put, what the Constitution stands for is the idea that my kids can pray and talk about God if they want to, but the school can't make them do it, and the school can't stop them from doing it. It's a darn fine arrangement, and we should quit messing with it.

Kan U say Tal-I-Ban?

I knew you could! Extremists never really get it, do they?

Christendom is a scary thing.

In scrolling up, I want to address the comments of CalSailor. I agree wholeheartedly with his analysis of what the parents were doing, and that it is not prayer. And the end outcome of that analysis is that what the parents did was rude, potentialy meanspirited, and completely political. But. A long time ago we made a choice in this country to put up with rude, meanspirited political speech. In fact it's one of our core values.

That's why everyone can print all the ad hominem arguments they are making in this comment section with complete freedom. In one page of comments I have read a lot of rude, mean-spirited political speech. And that's great. I may not like what you call me, but I support your right to call me that. We just need to be careful to separate what we think is rude and even offensive from what we think is constitutional. There is no constitutional right against being offended. We've always used words as a club in this country - it's our national pasttime. The alternatives may look good for a while, but only if you are the one who gets to define which clubs get locked up.

To the earlier poster who both said the "offending" students should have diplomas rescinded until writing an essay on the establishment clause of the first amendment and surmised that they probably would be unable to fulfill the task:

What the students are doing in no way violates the 1st amendment. The 1st amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion...." Were the 1st amendment truly in play, cities, counties, state legislatures, any body other than Congress could favor any prayer they want/don't want. While I don't advocate that, I do think that local municipalities and school boards should be able to honor/observe any traditions they wish. Of course, that violates the interpretation of supreme court rulings, but not the constitution itself.

I loathe the fact that the unelected Supreme Court has usurped power never intended it over course of US history. You can choose to pay homage to the precedent/musings of those who have attacked the constitution. I revere the actual language of the constitution itself.

rhdavignon: "Until I reached 5th grade I recited the Pledge of Allegiance as "I led the pigeons to the United States of America..." I was quite proud of mmyself. I now know that I was in error. Also about Santa Claus. We live and learn."

I must have just been a natural patriot, but with the Pledge of Allegiance, I just never thought the 'Under God' part was right, it seemed to be swearing allegiance, even from a young age, to the church.

Didn't fit.

As for being forced to move your lips for the 'Our Father,' there's all kinds of other things you can say instead. :)

"Out further, where art is heathen
Hollowed tree my Dame
Why finger stung, my hill be some
Of dirt that I will be saving
Shiver with rage, flower gaily shed,
And give just hours' press passes
And be more with prose, o best crass agendas
That bleed the sots in the same nation,
****, reliver medieval again."

Ah, compulsory prayer in the schools. You know they want it, right? Just like the good old days.

The whole point of the constitution (well, one of the points) was to prevent the development of a church of the United States. Remember why the Pilgrims came here in the first place?

I don't understand why Christians think they need to impose their will on others. Enjoy your faith, but quit trying to institutionalize it. Try thinking for yourselves for a change.

Mostly I feel sorry for the sheep who stood up at graduation and recited a prayer. Im sure their parents were proud.

You know, I think it all just shows that this kind of stuff simply isn't about what the schools do, it's about what some folks send people *to* the schools with. These political Evangelical kids haven't learned to get along in society, they've just learned they get attention and excuses for whatever they might like to do, for bullying and calling others 'evil.'

And of course whining they're being 'oppressed by the intolerant' if they don't get their way exclusively with the government behind them.

onestring, you said,
"People might actually listen to christians if they denounced the evalgenicals that drag their personal beliefs into the lives and doings of others."

wow. that is so true and so obvious. because we're so conditioned to being extreme (right or left) that "moderate" christians feel some sort of allegiance to the extremists.

"How would they feel if their Christian child were at a school where administrators or teachers were leading prayers to Allah? Or organizing activities to honor all gods and goddesses on Earth Day? Or inviting a Voodoo priest or priestess to cast an opening spell at their son's or daughter's graduation ceremony?"

that would be shocking because christianity has enjoyed tacit favored religion status in the u.s. since our founding. madison was against having congressional chaplains. nonetheless we have them. they say a (christian) prayer at the beginning of every congressional session.

remember two yearts ago, after more than 30,000 consecutive christian morning prayers, congressmen were forced to hear a hindu prayer! congressman bill sali (r-idaho, evangelical) believes a hindu prayer should never have been allowed. he said, “that’s a different god” and ominously, that it “creates problems for the longevity of our country.”

bill sali and his kind believe in an america where all are free to practice whatever kind of christian faith they please.

james madison, from "detached memoranda":
“Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes.
Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.

“The establishment of the Chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship against the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers, or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.

“Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy, than erect them into a political authority in matters of religion. The object of this establishment is seducing; the motive to it is laudable. But is it not safer to adhere to a right principle, and trust to its consequences, than confide in the reasoning however specious in favor of a wrong one.”

wow.

bevjims1 said: So religious people are "good people"? Are they better than non-religious people?
At least they are headed in the right direction! ;)

By doing so they are announcing their intention to live up to a higher standard (e.g. Torah, Quaran, Bible, etc.). There will be plenty who will fall short (we are human), but at least they portray themselves as trying. Non-religious people can behave as good or better than many religious people. Just don’t have a standard to compare them against.

bevjims1 said: So you wouldn't mind the school's Muslim principle lecturing the graduating class on some of the tenents of the Holy Quron? You would be ok with that principle practicing his faith at Pace High School graduation? Or Muslim teachers starting your kid's class with a good 'ol praising of Allah? I mean, what's the harm, they're only practicing their faith as the first amendment allows!

Not necessarily at a graduation ceremony. You only have so many hours in the day! The point at a graduation is to appreciate the things that went into getting the students to this milestone. That could include faith as well as friends and family. I wouldn’t have a problem with a Muslim leader taking a section (i.e. a week or two) of a World Studies class to explain what Islam is from their perspective. This way students get exposure to what is going on in other parts of the world rather having them think of them as just “those people”.

Bevjims1 said: I wonder what would have happened had a Muslim school principle laid down a prayer rug and started praying out loud, and handing out prayer rugs to kids telling them to prosper in the future they needed to pray to Allah as his religion requires. Would you just be glad that you live in a country where you can practice yours (or to have none at all)?

I had a class in a public university (Middle Eastern Surveys) with a Muslim instructor. At the end of it he asked everyone to recite a certain prayer which would have made you a convert to Islam (I don’t think anyone did). Then he offered those who were “sincere” an Islamic oriented calendar (instead of a prayer rug). It didn’t do me any harm and I’m still glad I live in a country where I can practice mine. Just as he could ask without fear of being dragged to jail, I also have the freedom to say “No thanks”.

Bevjims1 said: The Constitution's prohibition on establishing religion is not limited to Congress. That has been made clear consistantly by numerous court interpretations.

I go by the words I read in the Constitution. It says “Congress” not government. As far as the court interpretations go, there are plenty of court decisions I disagree with. Most of those decisions in the Supreme Court weren’t unanimous either. Things go back and forth on Bible Studies after school or in work places and some lawsuit develops because someone doesn’t like the idea. Some decisions go one way and then some swing the other way.

The problem I have is that you can’t be seen practicing your religion so many places due to the possibility that someone, somewhere would be offended. Students whose faith helped get them to graduation aren’t allowed to celebrate that in their ceremony. Society is so worried about offending somebody (except Christians nowadays) that we are not free to live, be exposed to what makes each other unique, be able to hear what someone else thinks that may be different and be able to respond with your thoughts. As I stated earlier, there isn’t a right to be free from offense. You won’t be harmed if someone prays at a graduation ceremony. The Christians wouldn’t be harmed by hearing a Buddhist prayer, they can take it. Let them express themselves!

Spidermean:
"The Bible said that America is a nation of God and a nation of the Devil"

No it didnt. America didnt exist when the bible was written.

Your a moron.

Good for the kids, I salute them. Graduated with conviction. Makes my rusty old heart sing.

OH JEZUS PLEEZE LETS KEEP OUR SCHOOLS HOKUS/POKUS FREE!!

Sauron,

Where should I start...

On religious people tending to be good because they, by being religious, strive for a "higher standard" I give you all of al Qaida as one example, the Islamic Republic of Iran as another not to mention the KKK and abortion clinic bombers and shooters. But more importantly look at prison statistics and see how many believers end up there versus atheists.

You wrote: "The point at a graduation is to appreciate the things that went into getting the students to this milestone. That could include faith as well as friends and family."

It could, but the faith was not taught by the school and so the school has no reason to celebrate that aspect, especially when there are kids of many faiths. The students at Pace wanted to celebrate just one faith and that's why I consider their act intolerant, though legal. I have no problem with moments of silence, but when public schools start doing the work of churches they go beyond their mission. Schools have no more a reason to teach or celebrate a single religion as does the local grocery store. And teaching Islam as part of a world studies class is not leading kids in prayer.

You wrote: "I had a class in a public university (Middle Eastern Surveys) with a Muslim instructor."

Yes, and at my public college I was hit from all sides by those wanting to save my soul, including one teacher. But a public college is not a public high school. College is not mandatory. There is no potential detention or other punishment the school can meet out. You are free to pay and attend, or not attend. Your teacher also did not make his religion in any way compulsory. You are comparing an apple to an orange.

You wrote: "I go by the words I read in the Constitution. It says “Congress” not government. As far as the court interpretations go, there are plenty of court decisions I disagree with."

I agree there are many gray areas in this argument, which is why the courts have been so involved but they have come out with a consistent interpretation. It really comes down to two things, singling out one religion and making its celebration compulsory in some way. Examples would be a prayer to start class, leading prayers at graduation, before football games, etc. And many people, including you I think, confuse this with the freedom of religion. No one is stopping anyone from practicing their religion. The kids were within their rights to say the Lord's prayer at their graduation, though doing it out loud as a protest I thought was a show of intolerance to others. The issue is not whether the kids can pray freely, its whether they are forced into situations to pray with potential consequence, whether their own religion or another. That is not religious freedom but just the opposite. The kids at graduation were intolerant of others, which is legal but in poor taste, but if the school employees had done that, it would be unconstitutional, and there lies the difference.

If these kids were really christian, they would have skipped their graduation and gone to work in a soup kitchen or homeless shelter for the day. The ACLU would have absolutely no objection to that. But no they had to recite a meaningless prayer under the guidance of their wacko christian teachers and violate the constitution that only serves to protect their irrational beliefs. What a smart group of kids!

Young Ministry at work.

One can only have respect for leaders who choose action. Even if on opposite sides.

I was recently at a function where True Traditionalists (Pagans)would have been sad at the sight.

The only "Bright Light" was a small booth , on the side of this function. A small church, manned with young soldiers, was attempting to raise money in order to pay for summer camp for kids.

As the very enthusiastic soldier explained the goals of this church, one could see the Strength in her beliefs. The only time she looked down was when "she" mentioned reading the Bible.

The mother in attendance and I, smiled.

Captured!

J

I remember Robert in Advanced Placement British literature, Thomas Stone High School, 1987.

He carried a Bible and was unrestricted by the teacher, administrators, and even by the other students, some of whom happily and willingly shared readings of his Bible.

I didn't really understand what salvation was like I do today, but I considered myself a Christian and I was proud of Robert.

I did not finish the rest of the year in Waldorf because my father and mother managed to find a buyer for our local home. Dad invoked early Federal retirement to coincide with the closing, and we disappeared into a part of the West Virginia Eastern Panhandle very close to Maryland where Dad had the foresight to buy property for retirement some months before I was born. It also was a college education strategy, and we did move early enough so I transferred between Berkeley County senior year semesters and qualified for in-state Shepherd College tuition.

After college I properly understood that Christians are spirit-possessed people who can be capable of some superhuman wonders and gifts, that Jesus came to save us, and that Christian discipleship will cost us life as we knew it. Just before graduate school I was baptized, in July 1993.

Christopher Marsh

It was fourth period. Lunchtime. The way 4th period is structured, there is a time to eat, a time for class, and time for something else, such as in Robert's case, the Bible. There was no interruption of classroom instruction, mind you.

Typical Christian hypocrites pushing their religion on everybody.

"If I go to a funeral or wedding for a co-worker, I bow my head respectfully when the pastor/priest/whatever is praying. That's just common decency in a multi-cultural society. I use the time to pray for my co-worker according to my own beliefs."

DMM1, the difference is that that the funeral is a private act whereas public school is a public space of the state and the U.S. Constitution explicitly states that public space may not be used by the state to advance specific religions.

If praying is only validated if you have to have it noticed by others then you are making your God too small. A person of the Christian faith can pray anywhere at anytime. My child is not limited by her surroundings, she can send a prayer to God from her heart and mind at school anytime. I told her this so she would know that God is everywhere. It's not that anyone wants to limit a persons faith. Public schools are paid for with tax dollars from Christians, Muslims, Jewish people, people who are spiritual but don't align themselves with particular faith, and people who are not of any faith or spiritual practice. The problem is when the Christian majority has to publically make sure you know how good they are and leave no options for those of other faiths.

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

Really folks, God knows what is in your heart. Why be so self rightous that you think everyone has to know.
As long as Christians draw attention to themselves by protesting the fact that there is no state sanctioned prayer in schools, abortion, gays, and many other individual and personal issues instead of taking your faith to the streets where you can directly help those in need, then please stop your grandstanding. Why are you not walking through every poor neighborhood trying to feed the hungry, why are you not passing out birth control and condoms to women on every college campus(this would save more babies than all of the protestes put together), why are you talking the talk and not walking th walk?

Meacham and Quinn continue their quest to find commentators to help them in their assault on Christianity.

" don't know why so many (particularly conservative evangelical) students, parents and school employees find these distinctions so difficult or distressing."

One can't consider themself a victim if they actually understand the truth. Besides, hating the ACLU is a national pasttime.

This makes me so sad as a Christian.

Please remember that not all Christians have this attitude of force-feeding our beliefs to others. For example, Habitat for Humanity is a Christian organization that workes with people of all/no faiths and provides houses to people of all/no faiths.

Many of my conservative Christian brothers and sisterthink that one is not a sincere believer if one does not take militant action against non-Christians. In my experience this almost always happens in small towns containing many conservative Christians and few of other faiths. I wonder how children of other faiths feel when a school function is appropriated by a few agressive students and they are left to observe from the sidelines. Does this attract them to Christianity in any way. I don't think so.

I also wonder why more churches don't convene graduation celebrations before or after graduation where Christians can have a stong message for the graduating class. I guess what this really about is supremacy by having a community event feature your beliefs to the exclusion of all others. "My God can beat up your God, perhaps?"

A glance through these many vociferous comments reveals a huge amount of ignorance and emotion on both sides. Ignorance and emotion are a bad combination.

My mom was a dedicated public school teacher for 35 years in the deep south. She was also a committed Christian and daughter of a missionary. I will always remember he reaction to the ending of school-led Christian prayer over the intercom every morning. She said it is about time we made this change. "Now my children who are Jewish and Jehovah's Wittnesses won't be made fun of for not joinin in the prayer." My mom understood that the Christian value of "love your neigbor" easily trumped the idea of mandatory prayer.

Her reaction to desegragation was just as positive.

To justify prayer at commencement is not aided by arguing that students are not government employees. The fact is that the commencement itself is sponsored and organized by government employees as an official act of their institution. In short, a school commencement is governmental action. To foster prayer at a public school commencement is also governmental action prohibited by the First Amendment.

Moreover, organized prayer in the setting of a school commencement demonstrates insensitivity to those students and others in attendance who may not happen to agree with the religion being promoted. Common courtesy, if nothing else, should be enough to ban such prayer.

I consider myself a religous person, but I do not approve prayer at commencement. Prayer belongs in the home, church and other appropriate places

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "Excellent article! A few years ago, I researched prayer in the schools. A surprising finding: When prayer was institutionalized, student violence increased."

Interesting and just where was the location or locations that this happened.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that prayer was never institutionalized here in the United States, it just kind of happened and then it was "de-institutionalized" and it seems as if there is quite a bit of violence in the schools.

Could you give specifics?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The most moving and personal experience I had when finding my Christian faith was when staying at a motel in 1975; I got a free new testament bible. I read it a year later when things weren’t going good in my life and it touched me deeply and will remain until my dying day. No church, no public prayer, only what I read made it happen.

People squawking about Christian prayer being allowed or not allowed anywhere in this country is already history. The very conservative values that promote Christianity are financially aligned with globalization, there is money to be made with globalization and the conservative money-machine will “get it done”. In the future this country is going to become so globalized we will have every religion in the world everywhere in our society and these petty squawks about school prayer, prayer at some football game in Podoke PA, and all the other things like “war on Christmas” will be long, long gone due to the almighty global buck. I really don’t care as long as I personally have my faith with God.

Great article. I agree wholeheartedly with the person who said that these churches want prayer in the school as long as it is Christian. I was in school when prayer was part of our daily school agenda. We all took turns saying "grace" before lunch. This was in a majority Protestant Christian community. When the lone "Catholic" said the typical Catholic prayer, the teacher ridiculed her. That convinced me early on that religion did not belong in the school because the bias of the majority will always rule how it is accepted.

As the bumper sticker says: "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church!"

please explain this?? - As the bumper sticker says: "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church!"

I have been to many schools in my lifetime and have prayed every time I start class - especially in engineering night school. I think when I'm in school and I think when when I go to church.

Food for Thought:

I have mentioned this before, but it bears reminding people. As each of us walks through life we are exposed to various institutions of thought. Religion has always been a hot topic. But in most major religions, they do believe in a Higher Power. Many, if not most refer to this person as a God.

As each of us have our own ideas and thoughts on the subject of heaven, earth and hell we try to come to a conclusion in a way that makes sense to us, but also hopefully inspires each of us to live life the way it was intended from the beginning. You decide that for yourself.

Many, if not most, of you have wondered how will I be judged if there is a God? Will it be from my lifestyle, and how will He (God) know?

Many question is it my thoughts, and he does He know those? First, long before me mouth any words, there was a thought behind it. So words are reflective of thought. I may not know when you thought it, but I know you did because you put those thoughts down on paper, or in this case, on the internet.

Do you suppose that heaven is an actual place and their technology is so advanced that it puts ours to shame? Can you possibly imagine they can actually intercept and or read everything that we write on our laptops and send via the computer or other modes of communication?

So, to answer the questions above. You will decide for yourself how you to want to pray, do you want to pray, or even if prayer is necessary. I for one believe that prayer is the first step to acknowledging to God "Hey I want to talk with you". And if their 'systems' in heaven are as advanced as I believe they are, then I believe that what we disseminate over the net and through various modes of communication can be intercepted; and it should be fairly easy for God to know what kind of person we are, and whether we would be a good fit up their in His home.

Have a good weekend. A prayerful wish that each of you finds peace with yourself and shares it with others. Be well.

The only thing more irrelevant than sports in public schools is praying. Studying is the only priority in school, everything else is a waste of time.

"In a powerful display of their First Amendment rights, Pace (Fla.) High School's graduating seniors, many wearing crosses on their mortar boards, remained standing after the National Anthem was played at their commencement ceremony last month and proceeded to recite in unison the Lord's Prayer."

Assuming for a moment that there were non Christian students in the class, did they sit down, not realizing that the Evangelicals were hijacking the program?

Were there non Evangelicals also present who chose to sit with those non Christians in solidarity with their not being in on this stunt?

As I grow older I become more and more uncomfortable with the forced prayer in public events where it is simply inappropriate.

When importuned by some proselytizer I tend to mutter no thank you and try to ignore him, because, should he miss the hint I tend to give him a good deal of his own medicine before he can get s third word out, by attacking his beliefs as strongly and as obnoxiously as I can.

The Jehovah's haven't come to my door on Saturday in years.

Good for them! I grew up in a time when we started every school day with the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of prayer.

Now, thanks to the ACLU and a bunch of meddling atheists, you can hear all about Kwanza, Jewish and even Muslim holidays; you can even sing their songs in school at the holiday season - BUT YOU CAN'T SING A CHRISTIAN CHRISTMAS CAROL or say a prayer.

And I think that violates the rights millions of students. I believe starting the school day with the Pledge to Allegiance and a prayer are helpful, certainly not inappropriate.

Regardless of whether you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hinduist, Buddhist, or even an atheist, I think every student can benefit from a morning prayer to keep the school and students safe; or a prayer for universal peace; or a prayer for students' and teachers' to have a productive day.

What's wrong with that? Prayers can be generalized, prayers can be specific, or why can't individual students of different faiths each say a short 15-30 second prayer? That fosters tolerance, diversity, AND still allows individuals their right to religious freedom and the right to express it.

Considering the amount of school violence during the past couple of decades, as well as the disrespectful and disruptive behavior of the majority of students these days, I personally thing school prayer ought to be MANDATED, NOT OUTLAWED.

kentuckywoman, you said,
"I personally thing school prayer ought to be MANDATED, NOT OUTLAWED."

omg. well, move to saudi arabia or iran and get your wish.

of course i presume you know that "under god" was added to the pledge during the 50s - conceived as somehow being a way to fight communism... (not sure how that would work, but, anyway...)

you say everyone (even atheists!?) would benefit from a morning prayer. can you pray at home, say, before school? or won't god hear you from there? sheesh...

kentuckywoman,
i suppose you're probably thinking of a harmless little christian prayer, right?

were you even a little uncomfortable a few years ago when after about 30,000 consecutive harmless little christian prayers a hindu (!) was asked to give the "morning prayer" in congress? certain congressmen and citizens were all up in arms about that. we heard things like "a hindu! what's american coming to? blah blah blah..."

and what about atheists? the spectacle of congressmen (or shool officials) making incantations to their invisible god makes me extremely uncomfortable. but it happens all the time.

again, can't these people pray at home, or in the bathroom or wherever on their time? why in congress? why at graduation?

Swazendo
You asked for an explanation of the bumper sticker saying: "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church"...

There are probably many interpretations one could apply to this but here's mine, I hope it makes sense to you.

School is about education, education should be about teaching facts that can be supported by evidence, this is how human knowledge and understanding is progressed. Religion is NOT about teaching facts that can be supported by evidence, religion is about propagating ancient beliefs, typically based upon medieval texts, translated by humans over generations and held up as absolute truths. Schools should be institutions for open-minded inquiry and factual discovery, churches are usually the opposite of that. They are institutions for people to be told what to believe, usually in complete contradiction to the evidence available. For centuries religions of all stripes have claimed absolute answers in contradiction to discovered evidence and they continue to do so. A few examples would be: the flat earth, the age of the earth/universe, the denial of the evidence of evolution. Religion in schools impedes education.
Churches do not welcome questions and challenges, and they certainly don't support their hypothesis with any verifiable evidence. Ergo, they do not encourage you to think they simply encourage you to believe.

KentuckyWoman wrote: "Prayers can be generalized, prayers can be specific, or why can't individual students of different faiths each say a short 15-30 second prayer? That fosters tolerance, diversity, AND still allows individuals their right to religious freedom and the right to express it."

To an atheist there is no such thing as prayer, so saying a prayer has no meaning. Why would you impose that on a child? Do you want the schools to teach religion? I thought that was what churches were for.

As for fostering tolerance, we heard what happened at the graduation when the majority religion decided to invoke its prayer. That was not tolerance. I doubt tolerance would happen in the classroom either but would become a shouting match as one religion tried to overpower another.

A child has as much right to say a prayer in public school as he has to say one in church, but the teacher cannot lead that prayer and that includes moments of silence designed for general prayer. The Constitution is clear on that and it is common sense, unless you would like a Muslim teacher leading morning prayers in your kid's class. But like any speach in a school room, the teacher must keep order so praying out loud can be restricted as much as talking out loud.

A school is an institution for one thing, education. Why one feels there must be organized prayer, as you propose to have a safe day, is insulting to me as a christian since it is not christian to do that but is superstition. Maybe all children should be monitored to make sure they do not step on cracks and break their mother's backs too?

If you want to live in a totally religiously isolated world you can have that, just pay for it instead of asking a secular government to supply all of your religious needs. If you want your child to pray in class, there are many ways for the child to do that in private without having a teacher of unknown religion lead that prayer.

Be careful what you ask for. Your child may come home reciting praises to Allah. Luckily our Constitution prohits that from happening but you are promoting it. Or is it only okay if its your religion's prayers? If so that is unAmerican.

Kind of reminds me of a couple of things in the bible, "Faith is a gift that no man should boast" and Jesus saying, "When you pray, go into your closet and pray... .

If prayer is only from rote rather than from the heart, is it prayer?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.