Separation of Church and Flag

Thanks for a beautiful, faithful commentary on the need for us to concentrate on the log in our own eye. The need for overcoming the racism inherent in our churches and our church structures, as well as the need for greater commitment to the cross than any flag is still dire.

I really like your post...however I really feel that as a part of the US, a church should be proud to display the Stars & Stripes. While it should not take the focus off of our God and Creator...this country allows us the freedom of religion and to that we should want to display the national flag.

As for the boycott...I most certainly agree that such efforts turns the focus away from Jesus Christ and then makes it about us. This "peice of cloth" is a symbol of our nations history (most specifically the south) and it should be looked at as such.

At best the state removed it from the capitol and placed it near a memorial for fallen confederate soldiers...this is so VERY appropriate and allows the history to remain as well as serves as a teaching point for those to learn from the mistakes of the past.

For African Americans...to me it shows that they are forever going to hold a grudge and that while I understand it was a hard and enduring time...it is OVER and the more they dwell on such little matters the longer the racial boundaries will be an issue. Let by-gones be by-gones and the world will be a better place for it. Let history serve it's purpose and live in the present!!

S. McLennan
East Point, GA

I think that the a church has no place having an national flag in it as it is meant to be a place of all nations together as one. Our primary citizenship is not American but Christian. If you have to be American or identify with America to go to a church in America than you are seriously comprising the Gospel message with a message of nationalism and division that the Scriptures spent a lot of time debunking.

Funny, before I got here, I just discovered this site and it blew my mind. It's official. This overrides all religious views I do believe. Only in America.
American and Talmudic Law as part of updating legal education!! Finally.

http://iatlaw.org/

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Thank you.

from Nunivek: Our primary citizenship is not American but Christian.

Dear Sir, I think I understand what you are saying here, but nevertheless, I find it something I view negatively. Sorry, but there is no Christian nation. There is the United States of America, a great land that should have your primary allegiance while in this world. That doesn't mean you can't honor your religion and personal conscience, it means that you are a citizen of a great land that allows you to have religious freedom, and should have your respect and your allegiance.
It is the bad idea that there is an allegiance to something higher that I find repugnant, not because it is true that there is a higher value than our world, but because this kind of thinking allows individuals to use their own thoughts to rule them rather than the ideals of this great country.
I hope I am making myself clear, I truly respect what you were trying to say, but feel that many use this kind of thinking to justify their poor citizenship.
The road to hell is paved with such intentions.

If the flag has to come down, Than anything with the word black should be stopped. The BET, Black miss america pagent, NAACP, black panthers...etc. Get the idea. What is bad for the goose should be bad for the gander. Another point, over the last 15 years, who has started the most riots? As far as God is concerned, This country was founded on christian values and even though many are trying to strip God from everything, they are wrong.

As a Southerner and someone who is proud to be on (i'm not a racist or a slave owner), I grow tired of the same old groups making the same old noise.

Why don't you go after the flag and t-shirt makers who put the Stars and bars on clothing - or license plates or bumper stickers?

No guts no glory.

Instead, why dont' all of you so called Christian churches get back to basics. Christ said feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the needy. These are the huge problems of the day, not the Confederate flag.

If Christian churches spent more time doing these things and less time trying to get TV and radio air time, our country would be a much better place.

The Nazis flew their national flag in the churches of Germany.

National flags have their place - but the Church is not a governmental agency nor a car dealership. No flags, no false gods.

Separation of church and state seems to have no sway with the crazed religious right.

Until we remember that America is composed of many people groups and that the U.S. Constitution is not a Christian document, we will continue the march to a theocratic dictatorship headed by people like James Dobson.

The back-alley abortions of yesteryear will return to have more good "Christian" women butchered because some right-wing "Christian" man got his mistress pregnant. Look at the evidence. The more hateful and unforgiving these religious right people are, the harder they fall. Jesus had a real problem with this type during His day. In fact, they crucified Him. Today, we are crucufying Jesus all over again with our attitudes and actions.

The deafening shouts by those who protest health care reform remind me of what the shouts must have sounded like that yelled for Jesus to die and save Barrabas.

As they say, "There is no reasoning with unreasonable people."

You are correct. As MLK noted, 11am Sunday is the time when America is most segregated. Denominations are part of Satans plan to divide the "body" like a slasher film does. They serve the egos of men - not God. What you didn't mention is that separation of church/state, which evangelicals decry, is a blessing, in that it protects religious instsitutions from selling out to worldly political power (Pat Robertson comes to mind). Lastly, there are the "C Street" types, who serve Satan by modeling people who abused worldly power, instead of modeling Christ and Christ alone.

"Americanism" is a civil religion. Divine Providence in Our Creed's "Annuit Coeptis" is the Creator G-d of the Universe. Sectarian faction is the bane of liberty. The separation of politics and religion has enabled us to be the covenanted beneficiaries of American Exceptionalism.

Those "Christians" reviling the Confederate Battle Flag would do well to study its symbology and historical context. Its Cross of St. Andrew denoted "Protestantism Overseas," a Southern battlecry was against "Popery and Black(corrupt) Republcanism, America was founded by Black, White, Jew and Gentile "whigs" (whig means "anti-Roman Catholic"), and the Union Army was predominately Irish, Italian and German Roman Catholic immigrants as cannon-fodder following Roman Catholic generals like Sherman to destroy the Jew-loving, Protestant, Jeffersonian South.

Jews came from across the globe to fight on the South's side. Rome later committed the Holocaust with funding through their collection plate funds and correspondent banker Rockefeller using Prescott Bush as money conduit to Auschwitz and the autor of "I Paid Hitler."

Huguenots, Presbyterians, Baptists, Freemasons, Free Blacks, and Jews built America. Some flying the CBF know it and remember what America is supposed to be.

Bush committed 9/11 after only the Roman Catholics on the SCOTUS unconstitutionally appointed him, a homosexual draft-dodger, as POTUS. It is more than a coincidence that Bush's father "can't recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of JFK"s assassination to send us to die for the pope in Vietnam.

Wake up, those who would count themselves Children of G-d.

Our Whig Founders were correct in their Covenant with the One G-d and in their Whig Intepretation of History.

The Roman Anti-Christ rules in America. Obama is but a start in the right direction. The sovereign People, our Nation of Priests must "get in front of Obama" to establish righteousness in this Land of Promise. "Christians" have bigger fish to fry than the CBF. If you aren't part of the solution: casting the Beast into the Pit - you're part of the problem. Did you think the Beast would jump in on its own? Or do you content yourself not to "see" the obvious?

The American flag should indeed be removed from sanctuaries. It has no business being there. But I wouldn't go so far as to condemn Black religious organizations for shunning the Confederate flag because I see it as something different. It isn't necessarily mixing politics and religions. The Confederate flag signifies something more than just a historical political division in this country. To many, it signifies injustice, something that most flavors of Christianity preach against.

For African Americans...to me it shows that they are forever going to hold a grudge and that while I understand it was a hard and enduring time...it is OVER and the more they dwell on such little matters the longer the racial boundaries will be an issue. Let by-gones be by-gones and the world will be a better place for it. Let history serve it's purpose and live in the present!!

This statement shows just how far we have to go in this country in regards to race relations.. how conveninent it is to say "its over" "let by gones be by gones..using that logic there would be no need for a confederate flag, that argument isnt made to the descendants of the confederacy, furthermore you never here that argument made to descendants of Jewish holocaust victims. I find it frankly ignorant and naive to expect one of the country's most influential populations both historically and in the present to simply brush aside and forget over 200 years of enslavement and another 100 years of lynching and intimidation, mostly under that very banner of the confederate flag. History is to be studied remembered, passed down orally and otherwise..for all cultures...lest we repeat the sins of our past. I have driven past that flag in Columbia, SC and was deeply offended it is on government ground, im sure many of the state's residents black and white feel the same way.. and to disagree with the column, one of the church's. indeed Jesus' roles is/was to fight injustice, this albeit a symbolic one is clearly within the scope of the church's functions..they can walk and chew gum at the same time..protesting a flag and conducting services for the poor. The onus for churches coming together across race is on ALL churches, and I hate to be a stickler for history but we have black churches because the white ones wouldnt allow blacks to worship with them. I too would hope there would come a day where all Christians can more accurately reflect their faith by worshipping together if not every Sunday at least in a periodic cooperative fashion..I have experienced that between two black and white churches and its a wonderful experience

"....the ONE church" - whoops - another religion that says it is the ONE AND ONLY and I guess all the rest are going straight to hell.

Just another reason that hell will be overflowing and heaven will probably be empty or scarcely populated according to the various churches that say they are the "ONE"!

Arguing over symbols. The Confederate Battle Flag WAS a symbol for a cause when it was first created. It was after that cause was ground into the dust that other, more cowardly people took the flag up to represent racism and seperation. A bit of irony, these same cowards still use a burning cross as a symbol that all races should find just as disgusting as that of the Nazis using the ancient Native American symbol of the 4 winds and compass points as their symbol.

Post logic is good enough for me. I'm sure it will all work out well. At least for some. You can't help some people for they have no grace. Time to fly. Have a nice profit able day.

UtahReb writes:
' "....the ONE church" - whoops - another religion that says it is the ONE AND ONLY and I guess all the rest are going straight to hell.

Just another reason that hell will be overflowing and heaven will probably be empty or scarcely populated according to the various churches that say they are the "ONE"!'
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In the creed (the Apostles' Creed) or its variations (Nicene creed, etc) that is pretty much shared by all Christians of all denominations, we are reminded that we are all members of one universal church, despite denominational differences. This is the "ONE" church referenced in the original post.

The adjective "one" doesn't have anything to do with correctness or incorrectness. Its an indication of quantity, not quality.

"Shouldn't Christians -- whose primary allegiance is to Jesus Christ..."

Goes to show you don't know the first thing about "Christianity" in America. Jesus of Nazareth is the epitome of everything evil to the modern American christian. Look at what they do. Look at who and how they hate. Most of them worship the flag, murder, war and destruction. Most of them would fight for a chance to hammer the nails into that commie hippie Jesus's hands.

Well, wouldn't it be interesting to hear a sermon about flying the confederate flag, on one's tee-shirt, truck or flag pole? But you won't, not in the south anyway. Even a pastor who thinks it is inappropriate because it invokes fear and hatred will not speak against it and alienate some of the congregation. Like in 1930s Germany churches tend to go with the flow of their congregations, supporting what they support, ignoring what they won't. The church is a reflection of the community and not the other way around.

Personally I have a great great grandfather who died so the stars and bars would never fly again. Imagine jananese-Americans flying the rising sun and you'll have a clue what those who have families who died to see it never fly again are thinking. If you fly the confederate flag you are no American. I have no issue with flying it at the memorials of fallen confederate soldiers. But that is only out of a respect for the dead. The living should know better.

Yes! Yes! Quinn, Meacham and Waters continue their anti-American rant. Correctly discovering that the 'confederate flag' thing is trivial, frivolous, time-wasting, they want churches to kick out the American flag. It's not CHRISTIANITY that's evil, dontchaknow? It's AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY. We have absolutely no quarrel with those subsaharan African nerds who want to pray to Jesus, its these White Anglo-Saxon clods we hate!

Chatard writes:
"Correctly discovering that the 'confederate flag' thing is trivial, frivolous, time-wasting, they want churches to kick out the American flag. It's not CHRISTIANITY that's evil, dontchaknow? It's AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY."
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I guess that you could read this article that way - but I was under the impression that he was pointing out a slight irony. The structure of the article supports this idea. First, he writes to minimize the effect that the Confederate flag should have (as you mentioned), then he points out the irony of being concerned about a flag outside the church (secular), but not concerned about flying one inside the sanctuary.

He seems to be saying, "If you are concerned about flags, look at the one closest to your alter". I will slip into logic-geek lecture mode here:

This is typical Modus Ponens logic, and the antecedent (the "If P" part) needs to be there to make sense of the consequent (the "then Q" part). Your post is accurate only if Mr. Waters posts a logical fallacy called "Denying the antecedent". As a simple example of this, look at:

If it rains, my car will get wet.
It didn't rain.
Therefore, my car isn't wet.

Clearly this isn't true - I could be washing my car. Thus, if Mr. Waters were recommending that all churches should remove their flag, he wouldn't do so by denying the assertions regarding the Confederate flag.

What really tickles me is when people fly the Confederate flag right underneath the American flag on the same flagpole!

I like to call these folks "Subservient Rebels" ... make up your minds already. Either you're with us or you're against us!

If you're going to fly the Rebel flag, at least have enough rebelliousness to fly it at the top of the pole or better yet, all by itself.

Sheesh. And here I thought Rebels were supposed to be such tough guys ... but evidently not so much.

FreeStinker writes:
"What really tickles me is when people fly the Confederate flag right underneath the American flag on the same flagpole!"
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To me, that's no different than an Armenian who is proud of their cultural heritage, but is, first and foremost, a US citizen.

All USA Catholic churches have two flags in the sanctuary area. USA and Vatican flags.

"To me, that's no different than an Armenian who is proud of their cultural heritage, but is, first and foremost, a US citizen."
Posted by: iamweaver

I've always wondered what the cultural heritage is that southerners are so proud of. I hope its not slavery. Maybe the politeness but I see that in many other places. What is uniquely southern that a flag is used to remind people of their specific cultural heritage?

"Americanism" is a civil religion. Divine Providence in Our Creed's "Annuit Coeptis" is the Creator G-d of the Universe. Sectarian faction is the bane of liberty. The separation of politics and religion has enabled us to be the covenanted beneficiaries of American Exceptionalism.
Those "Christians" reviling the Confederate Battle Flag would do well to study its symbology and historical context. Its Cross of St. Andrew denoted "Protestantism Overseas," a Southern battlecry was against "Popery and Black(corrupt) Republcanism, America was founded by Black, White, Jew and Gentile "whigs" (whig means "anti-Roman Catholic"), and the Union Army was predominately Irish, Italian and German Roman Catholic immigrants as cannon-fodder following Roman Catholic generals like Sherman to destroy the Jew-loving, Protestant, Jeffersonian South.
Jews came from across the globe to fight on the South's side. Rome later committed the Holocaust with funding through their collection plate funds and correspondent banker Rockefeller using Prescott Bush as money conduit to Auschwitz and the autor of "I Paid Hitler."
Huguenots, Presbyterians, Baptists, Freemasons, Free Blacks, and Jews built America. Some flying the CBF know it and remember what America is supposed to be.
Bush committed 9/11 after only the Roman Catholics on the SCOTUS unconstitutionally appointed him, a homosexual draft-dodger, as POTUS. It is more than a coincidence that Bush's father "can't recall" his whereabouts upon hearing of JFK"s assassination to send us to die for the pope in Vietnam.
Wake up, those who would count themselves Children of G-d.
Our Whig Founders were correct in their Covenant with the One G-d and in their Whig Intepretation of History.
The Roman Anti-Christ rules in America. Obama is but a start in the right direction. The sovereign People, our Nation of Priests must "get in front of Obama" to establish righteousness in this Land of Promise. "Christians" have bigger fish to fry than the CBF. If you aren't part of the solution: casting the Beast into the Pit - you're part of the problem. Did you think the Beast would jump in on its own? Or do you content yourself not to "see" the obvious?

Posted by: iamerican | August 14, 2009 9:36 AM
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WOW. My friend, it's time to take the tin-foil hat off! And I know the little yellow pills seem scary at first, but you should really try trusting the doctor...

"Personally I have a great great grandfather who died so the stars and bars would never fly again."

It's one of the anomolies of the civil war. Unlike many rebellions in history, the defeated didn't get exterminated and, on top of that, they get to keep flying the rag that is the symbol of their rebellion.

I've always wondered what the cultural heritage is that southerners are so proud of. I hope its not slavery. Maybe the politeness but I see that in many other places. What is uniquely southern that a flag is used to remind people of their specific cultural heritage?

POSTED BY: FATE1

As a southerner and a descendant of civil war veterans who fought on both sides, I see the confederate flag as a reminder of the fighting spirit of the confederate soldier, who, often vastly outnumbered and under-equipped, defended their farms, homes and families from an invading army against overwhelming odds. For the politicians of the time, it may have been about slavery; but for the average soldier, it was about defending his native soil. As tragic as the civil war was, it will always be a part of our history, and for many of us, an important part of our cultural heritage. That will never change. Unfortunately, for many the stars and bars has become only a symbol of hate.

iamerican: Those "Christians" reviling the Confederate Battle Flag would do well to study its symbology and historical context. Its Cross of St. Andrew denoted "Protestantism Overseas," a Southern battlecry was against "Popery and Black(corrupt) Republcanism, America was founded by Black, White, Jew and Gentile "whigs" (whig means "anti-Roman Catholic")
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That is not exactly true. The Confederate Battle flag was styled after a seccesionist flag that used the St. George's Cross, but due to an objection from a Southerner of Jewish decent, it was decided to turn the cross to an X to remove specific religious symbols.

But the problem is that the symbol of the flag was hijacked just as the Nazi party hijacked the symbol of the swastika. Most people don't know that the Confederate Battle Flag was not the Southern national flag (at least until half way through the war). The National flag that many SHOULD align with the Southern government of pro slavery is the Stars and the Bars, yet that flies often without offense.

The Confederate Battle Flag should be more a southern pride type of flag as it was the flag under which Confederate soldiers (most often not slave holders but the common Southern man -- though white) died to defend. It was not designed as a government or political flag (as could be argued with the Stars and Bars), but simply to identify troops on the field of battle as the Stars and Bars on a Windless day looks exactly like the Stars and Stripes, and troop uniforms and colors were indistinguishable.

But the problem is that the flag was hijacked by the KKK and later by the anti Civil-Rights crowd. As a matter of fact, the Southern states did not add the design to their flags until during the Civil Rights Era to protest against the federal governments acceptance. Those states did not revert back to the older designs until as of late.

While the US flag represents many noble ideals for many people, it also represents innocent lives that were taken during less noble moments in our history. For a church that believes the killing done by Christians during the Crusades was justified, it probably makes sense to fly the US flag. For a church that believes in "blessed are the peacemakers" it would be contradictory to fly the US flag.

Based on the First Amendment of the Constitution, I think churches would want to avoid implying that they approve of all the actions of the US government. Just as a house of worship would fight any government restriction on flying a religious flag, it seems more pure to avoid flying a national flag in the house of worship.

On the Confederate flag, since it denotes hate to so many, it should not fly in any official capacity.

As tragic as the civil war was, it will always be a part of our history, and for many of us, an important part of our cultural heritage. That will never change. Unfortunately, for many the stars and bars has become only a symbol of hate.

posted by: ALFALFABILL
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Except the flag in question is the Confederate Battle Flag, not the Stars and Bars. Neither should be a symbol of hate, yet I think your point clearly goes to arguing against the hateful use of the Confederate Battle Flag.

Based on the First Amendment of the Constitution, I think churches would want to avoid implying that they approve of all the actions of the US government. Just as a house of worship would fight any government restriction on flying a religious flag, it seems more pure to avoid flying a national flag in the house of worship.
Posted by DWINFC
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I completely disagree. Honoring a country that allows Religious Freedom without government interference is just and appropriate. It should be due noted that the country was founded on this principle, not that of suppressing religious practices, outlawing religious discourse and banning religious symbols from public areas.

I suggest to solve this problem by using The Golden Rule. You would not want to see in public display a flag that is the symbol of past oppression done to you.
P.S. IMO we all should live by The Golden Rule 24/7.

Allegiance to Jesus? Is that a New Rule?

Waters makes a false dichotomy - it is possible for the National Convocation of the DOC to both be concerned about racial reconciliation in thier own denomination and be concerned about a state government flying the flag of the Confederancy. One does not preclude the other.

For him to think that the flying of this flag would be of no concern to a group that is almost exclusively African-American is myopic. My guess is that he doesn't see symbols that are hate-filled and directed toward him on a daily basis.

My guess is that he doesn't see symbols that are hate-filled and directed toward him on a daily basis.

Posted by: BASEBALLGUY
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Is a symbol hate filled if it is not displayed out of hate but out of cultural pride (though misdirected as it does not cover all inhabitants of the region at the time of use)?

I guess my question is who gets to denote if hate is involved, the person displaying the symbol, or anyone that gazes upon it? If it is up to the person looking at it, very few cultural symbols do not posses a display of hate as cultural classes have always existed throughout the history of the world with the possible exception of pacifist societies.

"I guess my question is who gets to denote if hate is involved, the person displaying the symbol, or anyone that gazes upon it? If it is up to the person looking at it, very few cultural symbols do not posses a display of hate as cultural classes have always existed throughout the history of the world with the possible exception of pacifist societies."
Posted by: JBMSC

Well, its not just the flag and its representation of the confederacy during the civil war. This flag, which lost its reason for existence at the end of the civil war (it is after all a battle flag), was brought to confrontational situations by southern whites to intimidate blacks. That made it a symbol of hate just as the KKK made white pointy hat-masks and sheets a symbol of hate. If no one had shown the CBF after the civil war ended, I doubt it would bother anyone.

Now I'll agree that not everyone shows the CBF solely for the purpose of expressing hatred or intimidation. But, unfortunately, that is what it has been made by others. The question for those who do not show it for hateful purposes is whether they care or not about what others will feel when they see it. It comes down to respect. Do you respect people who might be offended by the display or not? That means it is not about the flag, its about the person displaying the flag.

I mean, would it be considered ok for a Japanese man to travel to China or the Phillipines wearing a tee-shirt emblazened with the rising sun, or would that be in bad taste?

HOW ABOUT DOING AWAY WITH ALL THIS GOD/JEZUS BS , LETS FACE IT RELIGION IS A TOTAL FARCE A MONEY MAKING SCAM, IT POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!HOKUS/POKUS 24/7

ralph5

You wrote, "It is the bad idea that there is an allegiance to something higher that I find repugnant,"

You can find it "repugnant" all you want but this is one of the things that this country was founded on: freedom; freedom to think, freedom to worship, freedom of speech, freedom to believe, not freedom to force ourself or our beliefs or non-beliefs on others but to freely have those beliefs or non-beliefs.

You then wrote, "but because this kind of thinking allows individuals to use their own thoughts to rule them rather than the ideals of this great country."

Isn't this one of the "ideals" of this country?

One of those documents say, "We the people...", it does not say, "We the state", does it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To display the Confederate flag other than in a museum is a blow in the face of black America as surely as the Nazi flag is a blow to Jews. Both flags represent insults to an America that tries to get beyond its worst self which has included treason and racism. Next to shouting fire in a crowded theatre, which is prohibited by law despite speech protections in the Constitution, waving flags at loyal blacks and horrified Holocaust survivors is fundamentally as unacceptable.

To Fate:

I agree the symbol was hijacked by people of ill intent, but symbols are simply that ... symbols. There meaning is derived by the person using the symbol, not open for interpretation. When the CBF was used by the KKK and by the Aryan nation (which is a silly use since they have no tie to the Confederacy), it is used for hate. But when it, or the Stars and Bars is hung at a Civil War battlefield, is that representative of hate? No, and neither is the one at Columbia. Now, I would agree that maybe flying the flag at Columbia is not politically smart, but the flag is only a symbol of hate when it is used as a symbol of hate.

For your rising sun tee-shirt example, in today's global environment, is it in bad taste to be offended by someone wearing a tee-shirt with their national emblem?

And while we are on the subject of offensive hate, we have this ...
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HOW ABOUT DOING AWAY WITH ALL THIS GOD/JEZUS BS , LETS FACE IT RELIGION IS A TOTAL FARCE A MONEY MAKING SCAM, IT POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!HOKUS/POKUS 24/7

Posted by: willemkraal | August 14, 2009 3:16 PM
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If our Lord JESUS CHRIST and his followers had given up on Rome because of the symbols they didn't like...
The Vatican would not be there today...
Truth is, true Christians don't run away, they stay and pray...

"For your rising sun tee-shirt example, in today's global environment, is it in bad taste to be offended by someone wearing a tee-shirt with their national emblem?"
Posted by: JBMSC

The Japanese flag is a red sun on a white field. The Japanese battle flag has rays coming out from the sun and was the battle flag during WW2. Its not well liked in Asia.

But I want to get back to this heritage thing. The CBF only existed for a few years. It was created to make it easier for Gen. Beauregard(sp?) to distinguish the confederate flag, which was then the stars&bars, from the Federal flag. It was initially a battle flag, only to be flown in battle, and was only later adopted as the CSA flag. Its about as important as a 15 star American flag.

If the south needs a symbol of its heritage what is wrong with the American flag, or an older version of it? Does the south really consider treason against its own country in defense of expanding slavery into new states as heritage to be remembered and honored?

Ralph5,
The notion of citizenship is actually a major theme within the New Testament, which is where my comment is drawing its inspiration.
There are deep similarities between the Roman Empire and the Western/American culture that we live in. The Scriptures point out the notion that as a Christian, we are not of this world, but we are in it. Our allegiance will always be to God first, yet we obviously still are residents here.
I don't think that the implications here have to be negative, and in fact I see more negative implications with the branch of the Church which seems to place patriotism and nationalism first, resulting in a Christianity which has its nation as an idol, a dangerous syncretism indeed. The Epistles are filled with examples in which citizens of Rome committed sedition, treason, and even more generally subverted the culture that they lived in. Is this alarming? Only if you find radical love and service as modeled by these communities where the poor, the widows, and the least of the community are provided for, all elements of society are treated as equals.
Yes, it would be terrible if your allegiance not being to your nation was essentially to yourself, this descends to anarchy, but the Gospel message is that your allegiance is to Christ the ultimate Servant, thus every Christian's mission as an Ambassador of Christ is to be the humble servant to the community around them. Which does not occur in a "Christian nation" that is a terrible goal that results in enormous oppression, servants do not seek power they submit in love to one another.
And the reason I brought up citizenship in the first place is that it responds to this issue of the flag in Churches well, we are not all Americans in the Church but we are all Christians, the flag does not represent us all, thus it quite easily becomes a symbol of separation and a recognition of a broken national message that is often discordant with the message of Christ. It is Christ who is my salvation and hope not my government or my nation, Christ and His kingdom will last forever not this nation.

@JBMSC | August 14, 2009 1:36 PM

The Confederate Flag represents a lot of things. Even if you view strictly as a battle flag, there is still a negative side to it. The flag was flown by a side going to battle in was was in essence a textbook case of treason--it was very fortunate that Robert E. Lee was not hanged for treason at the end of the war, he could have been considering that he led an army to take up arms against the U.S. to try to form his own country. I also don't want to minimize the issue of slavery.

The confederate flag represents treason, at the very least. More honestly, it incorporates the efforts to keep a people down, first in the form of slavery, and then in the legacy of Jim Crow.

It's a free country and you have a right to fly the flag (as you should) if you're so inclined. However, many people find legacy of the confederate flag to be offensive.

My views are similar to "Unpatriotic". I believe that many good people display the Confederate flag as nothing more than a symbol of the South (meaning the region, not the CSA); they honestly do not intend to give offense. I know because I used to be one of them; in college the flag was the first thing to go up in my dorm room, and the last to come down - and I'm about as left-wing as they come.

But through comments from friends, some who happened to be Native American or black, I realized that others see the flag as an offensive symbol of slavery or of hate. Even though that was not my intent (by far!), there was no doubt that their feelings were genuine. Out of respect for them (and more than a little confusion), I stopped displaying the flag.

More recently, I've come to realize that even if one peels away all the layers of symbolism and meaning and intent, one is left with a flag that was used by people in armed rebellion against the legitimate government of the United States. So if nothing else, stripped of all other meaning (real or imagined), the Confederate flag is a symbol of open and armed rebellion against the U.S.A. In that light I have no idea how any "red-blooded" American, Southerner or not, can think it's appropriate to display.

except the flag in question is the Confederate Battle Flag, not the Stars and Bars.

POSTED BY: JBMSC
I stand corrected. The Southern Cross/Confederate Battle Flag is correct. My mistake.

These christian americans are christians first, and somewhere after that americans.

Since they hold something to be more important than our constitution they can only be seen as traitors to that constituion.

Never trust a christian who thinks their gods are more important than our secular Constitution. Know knows what anti-christ they're going to be willing to follow first.

Flags don't belong in Churches and crosses don't belong in State Houses.

We need more places in America to relax and have civil and social discussions with one another like in the old British pubs with the rule clearly posted: No Cross, No Crown.

My mother told me never to discuss religion or politics at social gatherings. After getting high blood pressure reading the Comments in WaPo, I understand her rule now.

"ColoradoDog" said: "...My mother told me never to discuss religion or politics at social gatherings".

Aw, cmon! What else is there to liven up the party? Obamacare? The pressing question "Who is Mark Sanford sleeping with these days?"

Face it, America today is all about putting oneself in a narrowly-focussed group, claiming exceptionalism for that group and denouncing everyone else.

Rambam writes:
"Face it, America today is all about putting oneself in a narrowly-focussed group, claiming exceptionalism for that group and denouncing everyone else."
--------------------------------

That's so false. I and my friends are NOTHING like that. We don't spend our time denouncing folks, unlike the rest of you!

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and render unto
God the things that are God's. Why mix patriotism with religion? Does God favor one country over another?

katavo

You wrote, "These christian americans are christians first, and somewhere after that americans."

If a person is Christian than not only is your statement true but if it were not then the aforementioned person would not be a Christian.

You then wrote, "Since they hold something to be more important than our constitution they can only be seen as traitors to that constituion."

This is your opinion, wrong as it is, it is still only your opinion.

You then wrote, "Never trust a christian who thinks their gods are more important than our secular Constitution."

First off, a "Christian" does not believe in "gods" but believes that God is One and yet is a Trinity.

Second, some believe/know that God is a Being of Pure Love.

Third, without God, besides the fact that there would be no "secular Constitution" as you put it but there also would be no America, no earth, no solar system, no universe and also there would not be this post since there would be no people either.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

My personal experience is that every person that I have spoken with who was displaying the "Stars and Bars" on their car or flying it at their house was deeply prejudiced against blacks.

I am white and this includes some friends of mine. (yes, I have some friends who are still racist). By the way, it includes some people who are not even from the United States. They felt drawn to this flag because it reflected their racism against blacks.

Maybe someday, the Stars and Bars will be redeemed and its meaning will be limited to a symbol of courage and determination to fight against great odds, which is certainly a possible meaning. The confederacy was deeply implicated in slavery and racism, but it is a mistake to reduce it to only that negative light.

But right now, the flag is a symbol of racism both to blacks and to white racists. It should not be flown at a State capital.

note to "confederates":

THE WAR IS OVER. YOU LOST! MOVE ON.

ThomasBaum, you said,

"...without God, besides the fact that there would be no "secular Constitution" as you put it but there also would be no America, no earth, no solar system, no universe..."

that is your opinion. there is no evidence for that (outside of your personal "meetings" with god(s). america was founded as a reaction AGAINST countries with religious "constitutions".

I and my friends are NOTHING like that. We don't spend our time denouncing folks, unlike the rest of you!

Posted by: iamweaver
-----
Now that is just too funny.

"For your rising sun tee-shirt example, in today's global environment, is it in bad taste to be offended by someone wearing a tee-shirt with their national emblem?"
Posted by: JBMSC

The Japanese flag is a red sun on a white field. The Japanese battle flag has rays coming out from the sun and was the battle flag during WW2. Its not well liked in Asia.

Posted by: Fate1
-----
It is still used as the military flag of Japan. As to your comment of it not being well liked in Asia, I don't have that insight. If that is the case, it would seem to me that it is because of the lack of knowledge for how the flag is still used today and a disrespect for the person displaying Japanese pride.

The US has done disrespectful things to others under its different renditions of the Stars and Stripes. Yet should Japanese Americans (who are textbook familiar with the incarceration camps during WW II) or Native Americans (who are textbook familiar with numerous slaughters) be offended at anyone displaying the Stars and Stripes in national pride?

I should say the same holds true for the Lone Star flag as the Republic of Texas sought annexation from Mexico to allow slavery which did not exist in Mexico.

Should the Lone Star Flag be considered a hateful flag? What makes its case different?

walter-in-fallschurch

You wrote, "that is your opinion. there is no evidence for that (outside of your personal "meetings" with god(s)."

No need to worry, God will provide the "evidence", I won't.

You also wrote, "america was founded as a reaction AGAINST countries with religious "constitutions"."

I have stated many times on here that I believe that the "founding fathers" were divinely inspired in the "seperation of church and state".

I have also said that Jesus did not become One of us for us to set up a "Theocracy" even tho some have attempted to do this.

Jesus is actually against a "theocracy" set up by man because God gave us "free will" in other words what we do should come from within rather than from outside, "I will write it on their hearts".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I think MLK Jr. would have lead a silent march to the SC Capitol's steps, and lead silent prayer for peace and reconcilliation. No press releases, no signs and placards. On the sides of the streets along the march would be loud, angry, yelling Whites, shouting hate. America at its best and worse!

RE: Japanese battle flag and the Texas flag.

JBMSC,

The difference between those flags and CBF is that none of those flags represented an armed (and treasonous) rebellion against the U.S. by our own citizens. And none of those flags represents the enslavement, segregation, and discrimination against their own citizens as the confederate battle flag so obviously did then and continues to do today. The CBF is a symbol of southern heritage alright, a shameful heritage of racism and hate. Put it where it belongs, in a dusty old museum of outdated relics of history.

JBMSC,

The difference between those flags and CBF is that none of those flags represented an armed (and treasonous) rebellion against the U.S. by our own citizens. And none of those flags represents the enslavement, segregation, and discrimination against their own citizens as the confederate battle flag so obviously did then and continues to do today. The CBF is a symbol of southern heritage alright, a shameful heritage of racism and hate. Put it where it belongs, in a dusty old museum of outdated relics of history.

Posted by: Freestinker
----
Freestinker,

I hear you, and tend to disagree. First, comments here have been made not just by you about this being a treasonous action. With all due respect, this is a very simplistic and unthoughtful accusation. Without getting into a lengthy discussion, think about what "treason" means to you and whether "treason" per say is evil. Was the spirit of 76 treasonous? What about the revolution of Texas? What about the actions of Col Staffenburg and his cohorts? How much have you studied early American society? Is it treasonous to rebel against a union that was only 70+ years old that was entered into freely, but not allowed to leave freely; or is it rebellious to revolt against your state which had stood in existence for 200 years. These were the parameters that society dealt with and they did not look upon the Union as we do today; partially because that war helped cement the union that was not well cemented before. To call it treason to follow ones state's elected representatives is very ignorant of mid 1800's American society.

Second, despite the fact that the separation was basically a fight to extend a slave society, a vast minority of those that offered their lives under both flags did not do it to continue or discontinue slavery. They offered their lives for protecting the life they knew and loved. The vast majority of soldiers in the south did not own slaves, and many did not care for the institution. The vast majority of soldiers for the North did not fight to end slavery but to preserve the Union and many were as racist as their counterparts from the South. To their ancestry, the fact that they offered their lives in defense of those symbols does not reflect racial hate, but heritage pride.

I agree that publicly presenting the flags is not in great taste and is inconsiderate of others, but to take a symbol of ones heritage pride and say it reflects them as an evil racist is not very considerate of others either.

I own both a replica CFB and a Stars and Bars as was presented to me upon giving a speech at a re dedication of a grave marker to a confederate drummer boy who was my ancestor. I keep them tucked away folded in a display box though I do not display them because I don't want to offend; but I am not ashamed of them either.

JBMSC,

I hear you too and you make some very compelling points, many of which I also concur but we're really not debating what the CBF stood for back in the 1800's. We're talking about what it means today.

Symbols change over time and for most Americans today, the CBF stands for racial hatred plain and simple. That's not because they are ignorant of 19th century history, although sadly many of them are. It's because they are very aware of the (more recent and quite nasty) history of the flag. I would suggest the fact that you don't fly your CBF or even the lesser known Stars and Bars indicates that you do tend agree with me here.

My Southern ancestry goes directly back to well before the American Revolution and my GG Grandfather was a signatory to the SC Declaration of Secession and his Plantation was burned to the ground by Union forces but all of that, just like your family history is largely irrelevant to the modern meaning of the CBF.

It's clearly inappropriate and severly offensive to many to fly or display the CBF anywhere but in a strictly historical context. To do otherwise would be to embrace the racial hatred and intolerance that the CBF stands for today.

So, getting back to my original point; flags and symbols in and of themselves have no meaning. The symbol/flag must be coupled with the intention of the individual or entity displaying it.

It is not open to interpretation by the eye of the beholder.

However unfortunately, in today's society, it quite often is.

"Shouldn't Christians -- whose primary allegiance is to Jesus Christ and not to any particular nation, whose love knows no national boundaries -- be more concerned about the display of government flags in a church than at a government building?"

Unfortunately, many American Christians don't believe that God's love knows no national boundaries.

In fact, many seem to think He's an employee of the Pentagon.