Evangelical (over)reaction to Hasan

"This is not Islamophobia, it is Islamo-realism." Whee~! I bet the evangelicals practice with these Islamo words. We got new ones every season~! So the Islamo-Realism now tells us that USA needs to throw out 10,000 people with muslim names and backgrounds (most of them wont be practicing muslims anyways) at a time when thousands of them them are fighting with many of them already laid their lives, just because one muslim guy in the army went bonkers~! Ya sure are gonna win a lot more hearts and minds than you already have. What after you've achieved that? suppose another muslim cop snaps and kills another cop? All muslims out of the Police? Where does the buck stop? deport 6 milion americans? where to? To say that these Evangelicals remind you of the Talibans and Al-qaida's of Islam would be an understatement. Only that they are more dangerous because they got the Republican party under their thumb and will cause many more wars next time they come into power!

**The action of this one man dont reflect the beliefs or values of the vast majority of American Muslims** Yes,right. The action of this one man reflects the beliefs and values of islam/cult of submission,not Alice in Wonderland muslims(most of them are convert ones and dont know what Real Islam is). Real Islam is the name of the Cult in Afghanistan. Real Islam is the name of the Cult in islamic homeland Saudi Arabia and Islamic Republic of Iran,nothing else,not a few American converts'fantacies and Tales. Trojan Horses should be discharged.

First they came for the Muslims, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Muslim; Then they came for the gays, and I did not speak out—because I was not a gays; Then they came for the Mexicans, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Mexican; Then they came for the inter-racially married, and I did not speak out—because I was not inter-racially married; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me. From the Huckabee take over of America with apologies to Pastor Martin Niemöller

And exactly how are we supposed to react to the following? : 1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured 1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh 2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured 3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,474 killed in action, 878 in non-combat accidents and 93,552 – 102,083 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf 4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2] 5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured. 6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks. 7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050. 8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700. 9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban. 10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 614 and 182 killed in non-combat situations as of 10/15/09 11) The killing of 13 USA citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a Muslim fanatic. Based on the above, there should be no koranic Muslims allowed in the USA military.

ccnl1 - 1. Abortion clinic shootings 2. Abortion doctor murders. 3. Anthrax terrorism attack against planned parenthood. 4. Birmingham church bombing. 5. Any and all activity by the KKK. Based on the above, there should be no Christians allowed in the USA military. There are crazies in every religion.

It appears a few news organizations made the same mistake about Evangelical Christians that other folks are making about Muslims. I for one was very glad to hear that a conservative Evangelical Christian understands the difference between crimes committed by someone belonging to a religion, and the other members of that faith. We seem to often see those like us or whom we are familiar with as individuals, while lumping those different from us or unfamiliar into mass groups. It's important to remember, we are all individuals, responsible for own beliefs and actions, not those of everyone we sort of resemble. Congratulations to Mr. Friedeman for understanding that!

Yassaryousufi, "To say that these Evangelicals remind you of the Talibans and Al-qaida's of Islam would be an understatement. Only that they are more dangerous because they got the Republican party under their thumb and will cause many more wars next time they come into power!" It does raise questions of the dangers of religious alignment with power, and particularly military power, in any given country. Tribalism must give way to universalism, and yet religion is one of the primary pillars of tribalism. It often comes down to the same thing regardless of the society, government or part of the world it resides in. Power seeks to self affirm, and one effective way to do that is through the potency of religions. Power seeks to assure it's own continuation, and forcing a society to submit to religious views helps to secure that end. When is it that we can go beyond these tribal city-nation-states?

justillthennow, To respond to your post I'll use the analogy I heard one NRA supporter use on these blogs, 'Guns dont kill people, people kill people' likewise religions dont kill anyone. If it weren't for Religion people would still find some other reason to justify killing and destruction and seek more power. Really the idea should be to isolate the extremists, rather than banning religions. Which is an impossible proposition anyway.

BLOGGERS: PLEase click on the link below to Michael Weinstein's essay, "Weinstein and the Proseltyzation Factor," which, for some unfathomable reason has been removed from the OnFaith blog. Weinstein, a former high-ranking officer, a life-long Republican took on the problem of harassment of minorities by Christian Fundamentalists and has been battling this problem for years. His essay, web site (provided in the article), his book are eye-openers. The problems he has dedicated himself to addressing are of paramount importance to the safety of our troops, to the welfare of this country. It is far, far more important that we face this horrific problem head on than rail against this group or the other, flame and spew, which is what so many of the essays on this blog encourage. There are ways to deal with the bigotry, fear, and violence that divide us. Re-enforcing them is not the way. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/11/hasan_and_the_proselytization_factor.html

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression: - Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes. - Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.) - Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he??? - North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot. - North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently. - Northern Ireland is finally at peace. - The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!! - Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11. - Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan. - Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon. - Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole. - Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished. - Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots. - The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia. - And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Hmmm, again it appears some are not up to speed on our War on Terror and Aggression to include what happened to those who bomb/threaten abortion clinics: The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count 1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured 1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh 2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured 3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,474 killed in action, 878 in non-combat accidents and 93,552 – 102,083 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf 4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2] 5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured. 6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks. 7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050. 8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700. 9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban. 10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 614 and 182 killed in non-combat situations as of 10/15/09 11) The killing of 13 USA citizen soldiers at Fr. Hood by a Muslim fanatic. 12) The killing of 40 million "womb babies" globally every year. continued below:

Ooops, make that continued in the previous post.

From the commentaries to Mikey Weinstein's attempt to sell more copies of his book: So maybe Mikey could give us some examples of how he was discriminated against in the military?? Or could it be some embellishments for book fill?? Personally, doing KP and cleaing latrines were very harmful to my psyche. Darn, I should have written a book about that!!! Hopefully, he sent a thank you note (or check) to the USA taxpayers for his free education at the Air Force Academy. Hmmm, did the taxpayers also pay his way through law school?? From Wikipedia: "In October 2005, Weinstein sued the United States Air Force for permitting proselytization by evangelical Christian officers. U.S. District Judge James A. Parker, who presided over Weinstein v. U.S. Air Force, dismissed the case, stating, "No Plaintiff claims to have personally experienced any of the things described under “Factual Allegations"... while at the Academy or after leaving the Academy." "The only fair reading of Plaintiffs’ factual allegations limits them to practices and events at the Academy and policies as they affect persons, other than Plaintiffs, at the Academy." "Not a single Plaintiff has alleged any personal factual situation that has allegedly impinged on that Plaintiff’s constitutional rights since the Plaintiff left the Academy."

So maybe Mikey could give us some examples of how he was discriminated against in the military?? Or could it be some embellishments for book fill?? Personally, doing KP and cleaing latrines were very harmful to my psyche. Darn, I should have written a book about that!!! Hopefully, he sent a thank you note (or check) to the USA taxpayers for his free education at the Air Force Academy. Hmmm, did the taxpayers also pay his way through law school?? ----------------- This isn't an issue for flaming. It's dead serious, deadly. Weinstein's book is not about HIM. His book, articles, web site concern harassment of servicemen by right-wing Christian fundamentalists both in the military and in the academies. WEinstein is not a lightweight in any sense. Frankly, I cannot comprehend how any blogger could object to his efforts to end discriminatory, divisive conduct in the military, where unity would far better serve service men and women, who must depend on one another to survive.

Hmmm, a federal judge did not think Mikey Weinstein was much of a heavyweight. Again, doing KP duties and cleaning latrines are discriminatory in my book but those in the US military deal with it just like they have been dealing with overbearing drill sergeants from the land of Christian rednecks since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. I can still hear my sergeant singing Onward Christian Soldiers!!! And then there is this: "When Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt met in 1941 on the battleship HMS Prince of Wales to agree the Atlantic Charter, a church service was held for which Prime Minister Churchill chose the hymns. He chose "Onward, Christian Soldiers" and afterwards made a radio broadcast explaining this choice:[6] We sang "Onward, Christian Soldiers" indeed, and I felt that this was no vain presumption, but that we had the right to feel that we serving a cause for the sake of which a trumpet has sounded from on high. When I looked upon that densely packed congregation of fighting men of the same language, of the same faith, of the same fundamental laws, of the same ideals ... it swept across me that here was the only hope, but also the sure hope, of saving the world from measureless degradation. —Winston Churchill" Hmmm, I wonder if Mikey W would consider Rabbi Wolpe's views of the OT a form of proselytization?? To wit: Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt. Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis to include Rabbi Wolpe, an On Faith panelist, have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

ccnl1 discoursed: Again, doing KP duties and cleaning latrines are discriminatory in my book but those in the US military deal with it just like they have been dealing with overbearing drill sergeants from the land of Christian rednecks since the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. I can still hear my sergeant singing Onward Christian Soldiers!!! And cnl1 "wondered": Hmmm, I wonder if Mikey W would consider Rabbi Wolpe's views of the OT a form of proselytization?? ------------------------------------------- Meds should not be tossed in the wastebasket by the actively psychotic, IMHO. Just sayin'....

More information for our troops: "New York Times ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002 New Torah For Modern Minds By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation. Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now. The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. ''When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything,'' said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of ''When Bad Things Happen to Good People'' and a co-editor of the new book. ''Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible.'' continued below:

''Etz Hayim,'' compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text, a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as the author of ''The Chosen''), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology. These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology,'' by Robert Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr. Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic Gilgamesh. Equally striking for many readers will be the essay ''Biblical Archaeology,'' by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. ''There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's sojourn in that country,'' he writes, ''and the evidence that does exist is negligible and indirect.'' The few indirect pieces of evidence, like the use of Egyptian names, he adds, ''are far from adequate to corroborate the historicity of the biblical account.'' Similarly ambiguous, Mr. Levine writes, is the evidence of the conquest and settlement of Canaan, the ancient name for the area including Israel. Excavations showing that Jericho was unwalled and uninhabited, he says, ''clearly seem to contradict the violent and complete conquest portrayed in the Book of Joshua.'' What's more, he says, there is an ''almost total absence of archaeological evidence'' backing up the Bible's grand descriptions of the Jerusalem of David and Solomon." continued below:

"The notion that the Bible is not literally true ''is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis,'' observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to ''Etz Hayim.'' But some congregants, he said, ''may not like the stark airing of it.'' Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.'' The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai ''have found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

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