Uganda's anti-gay law riles U.S.

Rick Warren's cowardice in not condemning the Ugandan government's death threat is almost as despicable as the legislation in question. Somehow I doubt the good pastor would show the same restraint if an Islamic nation were to issue similar fatwas against Christians for doing nothing more than worshiping God. But I guess gays don't qualify for similar protection.

fr the article:

>...On Meet the Press this morning, he reiterated this neutral stance in a different context: "As a pastor, my job is to encourage, to support. I never take sides."...

Oh puhleeze. ricky warren CONSTANTLY "takes sides", usually AGAINST glbts.

If nothing else a gay bishop is committing fraud. A leader in Christ pledges to carry out the New Testament as the President pledges to carry out the Constitution.

The New Testament inherits every rule on sexual immorality the Old Testament has, thanks to Acts 15. Acts 15 reduces the "load" on Gentile Christians to four requirements, one of which is to avoid sexual immorality. (A lot of things from Leviticus did not make it, but rules against sexual immorality did.)

A leader who cannot follow the rules, especially after warning issued, must step down from office. Those who can not be made to follow the rules must also be expelled by the church body, not even permitted to eat with them. The social system of the church cuts off deviance from spreading.

Christians are not allowed to punish with homicide however. The context of the New Testament was as believers in a secular society (old Greek cities in the Roman empire, so believers do not have the power of state, and I am glad they do not, as we are also in a aecular context now).

Uganda is a country that has a worse AIDS problem than we do. HIV is spread more easily by male homosexual activity than by heterosexual sex. If they cannot make a exception for married couples, then perhaps given the severity of their situation maybe we can understand why they might consider life imprisonment (but hopefully not execution) for gay sex. Sort of like why China would enforce a one-child policy to be self-sufficient in agricultural production against its population, by controlling its population.

I am inclined to understand Uganda's legal practices within its world health context. The drugs required to prolong life with HIV are expensive. Prevention is worth a pound of cure. Depending on the country, its people may need to make sacrifices for the greater good unless some way can be found to balance the need of the whole with the desires of the individuals (safe sex?).

What do you expect from a church founded by the likes of Henry VIII!!!!!

Replying to:
"Uganda is a country that has a worse AIDS problem than we do. HIV is spread more easily by male homosexual activity than by heterosexual sex. If they cannot make a exception for married couples, then perhaps given the severity of their situation maybe we can understand why they might consider life imprisonment (but hopefully not execution) for gay sex. Sort of like why China would enforce a one-child policy to be self-sufficient in agricultural production against its population, by controlling its population.

I am inclined to understand Uganda's legal practices within its world health context. The drugs required to prolong life with HIV are expensive. Prevention is worth a pound of cure. Depending on the country, its people may need to make sacrifices for the greater good unless some way can be found to balance the need of the whole with the desires of the individuals (safe sex?).

Posted by: cmarshdtihqcom | December 7, 2009 2:38 PM"

Sorry, Cmarsh, but you could not be more wrong. Throughout Africa, unprotected HETEROSEXUAL intercourse, not homosexual, is--by a large margin--responsible for the terrible spread of HIV. So your defense of the legislation has no basis in reality whatsoever.

If the Ugandan church's motivation really is to stop the AIDS epidemic, then its leaders should be urging their flocks to use condoms and be faithful to their spouses--not scapegoating gays.

I'm generally skeptical about any church that would condemnn homosexuality, but won't take that same hardline against rape or adultry :-/

Certain comments posted here and on other sites provides contemporary evidence for Goldhagen's thesis about how Hitler was able to achieve so much death and destruction. These rationalizations for torture (make not mistake, gays in a Ugandan prison will be tortured) and murder are not unlike those that many German Christians used to justify the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. And least we not forget, German scientists and professors provided all manner of evidence and theories about the inferiority and danger of the Jewish race.

The question, foolishly based on Rick Warren's choice of words, is false. Obviously, religious leaders should not "interfere" with the political process in any country, including the U.S., where current political activities of the Catholic and Mormon Churches, as well as those of some conservative evangelicals, are arguably illicit at this point.

However, religious "leaders" are as entitled an anyone to comment on social issues of the day and governmental policies. Through this, we all have an opportunity to witness their moral integrity or lack thereof.

I view Rick Warren's failure to speak out against clearly draconian policies as rather cowardly.

As for the conservative wing of the Episcopal Church, their actions reveal less Christ-like compassion and actual leadership than faithless anger, fear, and ideological goose-stepping. Their liberal and moderate counterparts demonstrate a truer example of Christian ministry.

What makes this so sad is that it's another illustration of why Christianity is the vile, evil that needs to be checked - not homosexuality. Power to the constitution! Keep church and state separate. Had Jesus existed, he'd have nothing to do with the Christians. Of course, they would have nothing to do with him, either (they certainly don't have anything to do with their imaginary Jesus).

And where is Uganda, the Anglican Church, and Pastor Rick Warren when it comes to rape as a weapon of politics and war? More concerned about consensual homosexual acts.

Shame on those who make a sectarian virtue out of contempt for women and gays.

Noted, DCSteve,, but still, it is more difficult to catch HIV heterosexually (at least for men).

Causing tears in the rectum are an easy way for semen to mix with blood. The only comparable risk heterosexually would be sex during menstruation.

Although it is easier to spread HIV heterosexually if there are lesions from previous or present STD existing.

In Africa it is said A. Abstinence (before Marriage) B. Be Faithful (in Marriage) and C. Condoms (if you can't)

Condoms go a long way to safe sex for homosexuals. But condom failure rates are between 1 and 10 percent. That 1/10,000 inch of rubber can't save your life.

During a time of the year that is celebrated by Christians to rejoice and live by the virtues of Christ, it is sad to read more and more about individuals who self-identify as Christian, to support, by not vehemently repudiating, a government and religious leaders for condemning a group of people to death. Very sad.

Those who believe that laws like this will diminish HIV,AIDS or homosexuality are deluding themselves. Forcing people to live in fear will foster more risky behavior. Wanting an exception for infected married people is akin to asking for better seats for the good colored people on the bus. Shame on anyone that supports this kind of ignorance. What's next Witch Trials?

As a resident of Uganda, my sense is that this bill has no chance of passing, but plays to a strident conservative minority who want the govt to Do Something about the perceived threat of homosexuality.

Local context may help: recently a group of pastors accused a fellow prominent megachurch pastor (who happens to be a strong govt supporter and who makes large donations to police benevolence) of serially sodomizing young men. The case made daily headlines and then was curiously quashed by police investigators, who turned & persecuted the accusers and witnesses. Many assume the police, not exactly renowned for integrity, were bought by foreign (gay) money.

This antihomosexual bill lets the gov't claim it is standing up for morality against a foreign vice; but its mere political theatre.

Iran has executed homosexuals for 30 years now, but Libs castigated Bush/Cheney for threatening Iran, and our current President has apologized to Iran, and seems happy to have them extend their influence over the entire Middle East.

Sorry, I'm not going to get excited about what is happening in Uganda.

I don't see the problem. Let them legislate as they please. Emigration is still legal in Uganda.

Africans are so backward they know about vice. Americans are so progressive they know nothing about vice.

Sounds like some of the posters in this forum would be happy to see the same law applied in the U.S.

I feel like I've crossed over into the Twilight Zone. What horrible news. Rick Warren is no better.

We welcome these religious leaders who have signed this bill.

Very soon after this bill was introduced Andrew Marin and I created a coalition of conservative evangelicals, people of all faiths and no faith to speak out in opposition. The group now has 8400 members and provides a hub for information and news regarding the issue. Please join us and urge our Ugandan brothers and sisters to put down their stones.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=198541255168

Don't worry TootInCommon. We are honest Christians we don't stand for hatred or adultery any more than we stand for homosexuality or a gay bishop.

We don't worry that much about non-Christians. We have too much to worry about other Christians saying they are when they hate gays or if they are gay clergy. Policing our own front yard is important to prevent us from giving everyone a false reputation.

I think if you don't like enforcing the sexual rules at least you will appreciate enforcing a no hate rule against anyone. Hatred is suicide, look up I John 3:15. Eventually an honest enforcement of Christian living has something in it for you.

"FIRST-YEAR CONTRACEPTIVE FAILURE RATES
Percentage of women experiencing an unintended pregnancy - (or risking contracting AIDS)
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

Method Typical Failure Rate, %

male condom 17.4

Uganda, like the rest of Africa, needs to set up "mono-hand jiving" stations as a simple solution to the AIDs crisis.

"Africans do not need Europeans to teach them what the Gospels say ..."
*******************

Gotta love it! But the African bishops have no problem telling the American Episcopal Church what the Gospels say!

The shoe is now on the other foot; how does it feel, America, to take orders from Africa, just as we used to do to them?

Clearly, the Uganda Episcopal Church is preparing to join the Roman Catholics.

DO WE NEED MORE PROOF THAT RELIGIONS POISONS EVERYTHING?STAY AWAY FROM THIS TOTAL SCAM, RELIGION IS A 24/7 FRAUD!! A BIG MONEY MAKER FOR ALL THOSE TAX EXEMPT CHURCHES AND THEIR EMPLOYEES!

Forget the Peace Corps. Apparently we need the Africans to teach us how to read: the Bible.

Amazing, huh? I once had a 7th Day Adventist very slowly explain to me why the Sabbath was Saturday, taking what Gospel was it (Luke?) and take me through word by word. Dang it, the Sabbath was Saturday, in between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

I had already read the Bible three times...

But I didn't think it required that much imagination to "lie with man as a man lies with woman."

Unless a. you really want to be a Christian and b. you really want to have a gay relationship and c. you don't want to decide which one.

Then I guess you are rationalizing, playing mind games because you are desperate to want both, but you can't.

I am sorry for your needs that put you in that situation, but we're not dealing with God who will negotiate here. God is a King. The last time we had a king we had a revolutionary war. But there is no democracy or Constitution with God.

Why don't you Episcopals just break with the Anglicans like you did with the Catholics? You're doing just fine on your own!

Ah, Mr. Rick Warren, taking his cue from the New Testament, passes by on the other side.

He probably thinks of himself as the good Mister Rick as in Humphrey Bogart/Casablanca. But he's not. He's Major Strasser.

At least, thankfully, he wasn't passing by on the other side of a Berlin street in the 1930's.

Isn't there some penalty in the next world for those who passed themselves off as Christians while doing evil here on earth?

I hear a report last week to the effect that this legislation was being supported by The Family, the 'Christian' organization that has the C Street house for congressmen and has been embroiled in the Ensign and other political sex scandals, and worked with the Catholic bishops to push the anti-abortion provisions into the Senate health bill.

Comments?

In fact, there is a penalty for faux Christians.

It is easy for a Christian to say "I am a Christian."

"Lord, Lord didn't we raise demons and perform miracles in your Name?"

"I never knew you. Depart from Me, you evildoers!"

It is also easy for Jesus to say "Depart from Me."

Remember that next time some Christian hassles you with hate.

I John 3:15.

Anyone who hates his neighbor is a murderer, and we know no murderer has eternal life.

I once found something about the last living slave in America. She was asked if she hated white people. She replied no, she could not go to Heaven if she hated anyone.

She must have read I John 3:15

I can't get that image out of my head of those Westboro Baptist Church dudes, nor of that little boy who told his principal to go to hell.

They had better wake up and smell the coffee or they are going there.

I think the religionists should leave the Ugandan's alone to do as they wish with undesirable people. Missionary's and other religious freaks have screwed up Africa enough the last several centuries or so. Enough! Leave Africa alone if you were not born there!

When the Ugandan's come out an anti pedophile law the catholic church will be up in arms

This move in Uganda comes courtesy of The Family, the powerful US fundamentalist group responsible for, among other things, the Stupak Pitts Amendment which would effectively wipe out the right to abortion for most women in the US:
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/25/132255/09

It took the Archbishop of Canterbury no time at all to bemoan the election of a lesbian American bishop -- someone whom the "traditional" Anglicans would and do reject simply because she's a woman. Yet I do not recall having heard a single word from this semi-vicar of Christ about active, serious plans being put in place by Anglican churchmen and other "religious" in Uganda to legalize the murder of gay men and women and to imprison friends and relatives who fail to turn them in.

That Rick Warren declines to take a stand is hardly surprising. Rick Warren's mentor, the person he called the greatest American preacher of the 20th century, was eulogized by the National Alliance for his decades of service as president of the Southern Baptist Convention during which he actively condoned the use of thugs to keep churches segregated.

I would hope that Paster Warren would have the courage to take a stand against the proposed legislation of allowing gay children of God to be killed.

Christianity is the most popular religion in Africa, Christians must adhere to the various practices and teachings contained in the Bible. One of the verses states: “…Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually
immoral… nor adulterers … nor homosexual offenders nor thieves … will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9. This verse, as well as others that speak about sexual immorality. The bible is the hallmark of Christian stances against homosexuality. In addition, Homosexual relationships are seen as unnatural and
sinful because they hold no natural possibility for procreation, one of the most important functions of the
normative institution of the African family.

Lets remember that when AIDS first appeared as an epidemic, the Westerners themselves were quick to point out that it might have been transmitted from African monkeys, and that the main groups threatened in The west were homosexuals. In a western media that is so quick to berate all things African, they could not bring themselves to even suggest that AIDS was spread in Africa by homosexuals. So it seems today the west is trying very hard to make a connection with gays in Africa that isn't there.

In addition, this is not about staying nuetral on governmental matters - the proposed legislation makes it imperative one takes a stand in order to save lives. It's the christian thing to do.

I would hope that Paster Warren would have the courage to take a stand against the proposed legislation of allowing gay children of God to be killed.

Lets remember that when AIDS first appeared as an epidemic, the Westerners themselves were quick to point out that it might have been transmitted from African monkeys, and that the main groups threatened in The west were homosexuals. In a western media that is so quick to berate all things African, they could not bring themselves to even suggest that AIDS was spread in Africa by homosexuals. So it seems today the west is trying very hard to make a connection with gays in Africa that isn't there.

I doubt that there is a "religion" today that actually lives according to God's Holy Commandments, or people who profess to be Godly yet practice hatred and discrimination against their fellow man.
What happened was MONEY. This is the true basis of religion all over the world. Magnificent houses of worship while their neighbors go hungry, unclothed, unsheltered.
Constantly begging for money while their preachers take luxury vacations and live well funded lives never worrying about who will take care of them in their old age. Religion is a money-making corporate enterprise and nothing more. Not a one of us needs to enter a church to be right with God. Follow those Ten Commandments and shun the lies of the Bible, written by men to secure their power and wealth. African nations are still so far behind today, so corrupt and uneducated and almost beyond hope. No thriving nations can finance their rise above poverty and ignorance and so they will continue to flounder with abysmal leaders. God help them all. American religious corporations should keep their noses out of politics altogether. They have no business interfering with the state or receiving money from our taxes.

When you say that only Christians go to heaven, Rick, you're taking sides.

cmarshdtihqcom, in his earliest post, has spelled out why most people who call themselves Christians are actually Paulists.

These rationalizations for torture (make not mistake, gays in a Ugandan prison will be tortured) and murder are not unlike those that many German Christians used to justify the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. And least we not forget, German scientists and professors provided all manner of evidence and theories about the inferiority and danger of the Jewish race.

Posted by: dongard |
---------------------------
First, Judaism is a religion, not a race, unless, that is, Christianity is a race, although the EuroChristian nazis did racialize Judaism.

Second, the analogy is not apt. The Ugandans are not rounding up every gay person or every person who may have had a gay grandparent, sending them off to Concentration camps to die. They are not going from country to country throughout Africa to do this. The citizens of Africa, unlike the citizens of Holocaust Europe are not getting up all by themselves to kill gays.

That said, the analogy might be closer to modern-day ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East, who have been killed, tortured, forcibly deported, or otherwise exiled. As I type, the remnants of the Jewish civilization of Yemen, 350 remaining from 50-60 thousand, a three thousand year old culture are awaiting deportation resulting from Islamic extremism. The Middle East outside of Israel, is almost Judenrein.

Odd that this doesn't merit questions from OnFaith.
--------------------------------
As for the matter at hand. Human rights violations are human rights violations. The position of the Ugandan bishops is loathsome, disgusting, revolting. If I were of their faith, I'd be doing all I could to convince them to reverse it.

All those who left the communion due to its acceptance of gay clergy should take a good hard look at where there blind hatred could lead.

Interesting moral bedfellows the Anglicans have made for themselves.

The Ugandans who create such diversionary "anti-gay" issues to divert from their corruption and crimes, should be in jail
for CORRUPTION & CRIMES assisted by
billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$ in American aid.

No more American "foreign aid" (aka bribes) for Uganda!

CORRUPTION should get THE DEATH PENALTY, not
being gay.

I have read the Bible three times, including the New Testament four times. I have been at this 16.5 years. Call it Paulism if you will. At least I know my religion and I am trying to be fair and truthful about it.

The church never needed permission from government even to exist in the days of Roman persecution. Why it should even get money from the government is beyond me.

Christians going to Heaven, is a sad fact of this religion. If you do not like it about the only thing you can do about it is get saved, because you are the only person you can control.

I wish you all would get saved, but then you would have to make restrictions on your liberty, because then you would belong to Jesus. You might not accept that.

No, we don't want a country killing anyone if imprisonment will suffice.

Let me ask you this, though. Unless we can confine every single inmate to a single cell, how do you propose to stop a violent inmate who is intent on raping his fellow inmates (especially given that the inmate could have HIV)?

Sometimes we would have to execute inmates if they posed a danger to others....

Rick Warren and the C Street 'Family' cult are just as low as the Ugandan leadership. Even their charities are scams.

Sodomy is sin, deal with it people. Repent, for the wages of sin is death.

Merry Christmas Sodomites! :)

"Professing to be wise, they became as fools." Romans 1:22

Actually, criminalizing homosexual behavior IS VERY compatible with the word of God and does not go against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in the least.

Wickedness is still wickedness.

Yes, Jesus paid the penalty for sins, as in NO one should be killed for it or put in jail as a punishment.

However, if they are put in jail and or fined, for prevention reasons -- in order to stop them from being out-loud and boasting publicly of their perverted behavior, that would be a good thing. This would also stop them from pushing it on others and trying to get children to get involved in the perverted behavior.

Jesus fulfilled the law. He in NO WAY did away with it. Sin is still sin.

Debra J.M. Smith
of
InformingChristians.com

After the gays, who else then will be eliminated? Political dissidents? Religious groups? Humanity has not moved very far.

Thou shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife/Husband/Partner with the corollary of Thou Shalt Not Fornicate pertain not only to heterosexual couples but also homosexual couples.

This probably is no concern to non-Christians or non-Jews but it should be a major concern to those religious types that believe in the teachings of the OT, NT, the Commandments and all of its corollaries.

So we have a Christian God who supposedly created all of us to include homosexuals. Said God is therefore responsible for the defective gene/mind-set that causes homosexuality? One might conclude from this that the Christian God would therefore approve same-sex unions since that is the only sin-free state where any type of couple-sex can be performed.

Uganda's problems are not with gay people. They are just being used as a diversion or smokescreen. I'm sure the real problems are the usual ones of public corruption and stolen elections.

If "outsiders" attack the Ugandan government for this diversion, they only help the oppressive government by giving them the 'victim' status they are looking for. (Just because we disagree with this reprehensible ploy does not mean that shoulding our disagreement at them is the wisest response)

So how should the civilized world react?

1st: Say we respect each countries right to make their own laws, but we have fundamental problems with this one based on our understanding of personal freedom and human rights.

2nd: Offer fast-track immigration to any Ugandan who is in fear of prison or persecution based on this scapegoating, provided they have a private sponsor or sponsoring organization in the host country that will provide them with non-government assistance with getting settled, learning the language, finding work, etc.

3rd: Don't take the bait! Imagine if the civilized world reacted by saying "They are obviously scapegoating. I wonder what they're trying to hide? Let's send a few hundred reporters, diplomats and NGO personel to look for dirty laundry among the ruling powers and air it out." Corrupt rulers the world over would quickly learn to use less offensive techniques for crowd control!

I don't know Rick Warren well enough to say if he is taking this approach or is just more interested in protecting his turf than doing the right thing. Even though I don't agree with him on everything, Uganda is obviously a mess and he's probably doing more good there than I am, so I can say "god bless him" for that. but 1 or 2 of those 100 reporters should look for skeletons or small boys in his closets too!)

- Rwolf

I might have to reconsider my reliance on Uganda for moral guidance.

Christ taught us to love our neighbors and to not be judgmental. Christ didn't ask that the Sarmaritan woman at the well be imprisoned or stoned.

As for the posting about the justification of this to prevent HIV, why not take your position a step further and support imprisonment or execution of those with HIV; heterosexuals or homosexuals?

Poor Debra Smith,

She drank the cool-aid of religion and no longer sees even the rankest hypocrisy even when it comes from her own keyboard!

In one sentance she says "Yes, Jesus paid the penalty for sins, as in NO one should be killed for it or put in jail as a punishment."

Then, jaw-droppingly adds "However, if they are put in jail ... in order to stop them from being out-loud and boasting publicly of their perverted behavior, that would be a good thing."

Tell me Debby, what do you really want: personal freedom including the freedom of (or even from) religion, or a christian-taliban police state? You can't have both.

Here's a thought: Maybe we'd all be happier if you moved to Uganda and we took their gays and lesbians in as refugees? I duuno, you might like it there. They share your views on human rights.

Freedom is meaningless if we only give it to the boring people who will never use it... The most important freedom is the freedom to fail. Without it there would be no progress in anything.

I'm a gay athiest who is doing his best to learn, enjoy life and make the world a better place for my family and friends before I die and rot away. You are a devout christian who is spending her whole life trying to get into heaven.

One of us is completely wasting our lives. I'm betting it's not me, but I might be wrong.

We each should have the freedom to try... and to fail.

Peace. I hope eternity doesn't turn out to be a disappointment!

- Rwolf

Rick Warren's refusal to condemn this proposed law is despicable. Perhaps it's predictable since he has ties to some of the bigots pushing this law, including his mentor Peter Wegner and the bill's author, Martin Ssempa.

Anyone doubt that this simpering moral coward would have kept quiet in Nazi Germany as well?

Debra J.M. Smith says:

"criminalizing homosexual behavior IS VERY compatible with the word of God"

"Jesus fulfilled the law."

----

Jesus said "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God"

Wake up and READ YOUR OWN BIBLE.

Jesus was Crucified for violating Roman Law.

Your argument "Jesus fulfilled the law" is comical in its absurdity.

CCNL writes:

Thou shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife/Husband/Partner with the corollary of Thou Shalt Not Fornicate pertain not only to heterosexual couples but also homosexual couples.

This probably is no concern to non-Christians or non-Jews but it should be a major concern to those religious types that believe in the teachings of the OT, NT, the Commandments and all of its corollaries.
---------------------
Odd, coming from one who does not believe that God created human. However, some Christian denominations have accepted gay clergy and gay unions.

As for Jews, Conservative, Reformend, and Reconstructionist Judaism ordains gay clergy and accepts gay marriage.

God welcomes love between adults, condemens hatred, nonGod knows.

They're lucky Idi Amin is not still around. He would eat them.

If you call yourself a CHRISTian, and you tell us you follow the teachings of CHRIST, and you condemn homosexuality as against CHRIST's teachings, then please inform all of us the exact scripture and verse (or multiple incidences thereof) where CHRIST made any mention of homosexuality.

If you quote any part of the Bible outside Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, you are definitely NOT quoting what CHRIST said or taught.

i held an hiv workshop in a prison in humera, ethiopia. in a cage, under a 115 degree sun were 2 inmates. i asked why they were separated from the rest and it was their one month initiation sentence for having been caught having sex with a man. the two caged men were the passive partners and got life sentences, the one active got 12 years...i gave 100 dollars to a friend, who went to the judge and for $33.33, the three were set free. i have seen public executions in eastern congo of homosexuals and in russian prisons, the phetukis, literally the untouchables, are segregated by uniform and space and submitted to sexual violations from other inmates as well as other indignities. uganda may be putting it on paper, but many others are putting it into action, even russia, a g-8 country.

Good grief. What a great idea! What's next, five to fifteen for nose-picking?
This puts me in mind of the old joke about masturbation. Someone tells the guilty boy he'll go blind if he keeps it up. He asks, "Can I do it just until I need glasses?"
There were a couple of comments in here about The Family. For those of you who don't know, United States Senators and Representatives who are members of this far-right "Christian" group have been courting African dictators for years, in some cases using our tax dollars to travel there. If they're not actually behind this, they are supporting it. Coburn, Ensign, Stupak, Pitts, Brownback, Inhofe, Grassley, Enzi, Wamp, Wolf, McIntyre, Shuler, Pryor, many of these people are involved in this Unganda nightmare.
If you look at some of the pathetic comments in this forum, you have to wonder, who's next? Jews? Muslims? Atheists? Adulterers? Unmarried straight couples? Mixed race children? The developmentally disabled? The rest of the disabled?
As it stands, the only group in the United States that it is still permissible to discriminate against is homosexuals. Why? The sick, twisted, perverted views of some who call themselves "Christians." This is not Christianity, unless it's the brand symbolized by the KKK.
Any time you hear someone say they know what

Last sentence should read: Any time you hear someone say they know what God really means about this and that and who's a sinner and who should be punished and "the Bible proves it," you're listening to an idiot.

It is really sad that religious groups can say such hateful, anti-human things and always fall back to their religion (ie: the "New Testament"+ said it)for protection. Gee, what if Hitler had done the same thing (although he was kind of aligned with Christianity)? I am not religious, but belived strongly in compassion and tolerance for those who are not like me. --Is that "un-Christian"?

This is an internal Ugandan matter. We should do nothing.

Is anyone here actually surprised? The anti-gay hate from the Ugandan church has been hard to miss.

We really should hold the Senators and Congressmen residing at 133 C Street SE responsible, as their patron organization, The Family, is supporting this legislation.

As for this being an internal Ugandan matter, the same ridiculous claim could be made for every genocide in history. And Uganda gets a ton of foreign aid, much of it from the US. And that money comes from gay American taxpayers, at least in part. If you lack the morality to intervene on moral grounds, at least have the honesty to do it on equitable grounds.

Condoms go a long way to safe sex for homosexuals. But condom failure rates are between 1 and 10 percent. That 1/10,000 inch of rubber can't save your life.
Posted by: cmarshdtihqcom
*****************************

The studies that show failure rates greater than 2% have been criticized and have been shown to be due to incorrect usage of the condoms. When used consistently and properly, condom effectiveness for preventing the transmission of HIV is greater than 99%.

Talk about a barbaric society. Unbelievable in 2009. And shame on "the not so good pastor" Rick Warren. I wonder what Christ would do?

The Christian Bible clearly states that gays should be executed.

Christians should fall in line with this barbaric belief.

The alternative is the above to reject Christianity and become a modern, tolerant, civilized human being living in the 21st century, not the 1st century.

But that is out of the reach of most Christians.

You miss the point. This law was CHAMPIONED by members of the US government - people connected in to "the Family" who have spent a large amount of time and US taxpayer money travelling to Uganda to promote this law.

Members include esentially the entirety of the republicon congressional leadership, as well as a few conservative Democrats. Lok them up. This disgraceful 11th century law was their baby.

Christian law is non existant. Jesus did not come to bring "law" but to revise the covenant.

Old Testament Jewish law says all sorts of people whould be stoned to death - but so called Christians only ever seem to read the part of a sentance that singles out gays.

I would hope that Paster Warren would have the courage to take a stand against the proposed legislation of allowing gay children of God to be killed.

Posted by: onthejourney | December 7, 2009 8:14 PM
======================================
Rick Warren should continue to have the courage to keep his mouth shut. The article says he's running a huge ministry in Africa devoted to AIDS/HIV. If he criticizes the Ugandan government, he risks retaliation against his ministry.

Do you know who wold suffer? The AIDS/HIV patients, the orphans, and the aid workers and missionaries in his organization.

His decision to keep his mouth shut is a political decision, not a theological one. It also happens to be the RIGHT decision.

This story is woefully incomplete without noting the role of the conservative C-Street group "The Family" (Mark Sanford, Tom Coburn, etc.) in all of this:

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/11/25/the-family-c-street-group-tied-to-uganda-death-penalty-for-gays/

Although I am athiest, I had some regard for religious leaders such as Rev. Warren. Now his stock has dropped in my book. I bet if they were killing white christians or promoting abortion for every women, he and other right wing religious leaders would be more forthcoming with a condemnation. I think the more primitve churches should adopt more 21st century views on the subject of homosexuality and women's right or continue to be viewed as hypocrites of the worst kind

Rick Warren may be wise. A softer approach may be appropriate here. KJS' heavy-handed approach to this is imperialistic and insulting. Even if you disagree, you have no power beyond persuasion. Pushing Ugandan leaders into a corner may only make things worse. They may vote for this to spite U.S. preaching. Jefferts-Schori is amazingly naive and arrogant about the world and their opinion of the United States. She's a large part of the problem.

I find it fascinating how people are so interested with other peoples private, personal business.

It seems at the end of the day, all religion has that "Al-Qaeda-ish" sentiment.

Shame on Rick Warren for condoning such behavior by not speaking out against it. As a person of high profile, he has a responsibility.

It will be interesting to see who gets judged and condemned to hell... It sure won't be me.

Justin Early
http://www.streetchildmemoir.com

Debra J.M. Smith says:
"criminalizing homosexual behavior IS VERY compatible with the word of God"
------------
Considering that no one knows for sure what was written by any of the Bible's original authors and that we know the Bible was assembled by a group of men with their own personal axes to grind and bonfires to stoke, I would not be so sure that what we read today is the unedited word of God. But even if were sure, when we start executing those who break biblical laws, we'll soon run out of both executees and executors.

Sad but not surprising. Our planet is richly endowed with monotheists clamoring to exterminate gays.

Make no mistake -- if the American Christian right thought they could pass a bill imposing the death penalty for homosexuality, they would thank God and do it. They (occasionally) pay lip service to tolerance, but as this story (and the comments here) reveal, what they really want is simple: kill the gays.

""any form of sexual relations between persons of the same sex," punishable by life in prison or death, threatens to further divide Episcopalians, some of whom have left the U.S. church and aligned with the Anglican Church of Uganda and other anti-homosexual African communions."

Substitute Christian/Jew/adultery (mind you, adultery is biblically defined as sex outside of marriage)/mixed race child/other and you would be hard-pressed not to find religious leaders not coming just short of howling in outrage. But it's okay with too large a percentage of people to hunt down homosexuals and imprison or execute them. That's very sad. Is this because more and more women aren't putting up with being treated like little more than walking, talking vag1nas? Going for a smaller group (easier to pick off)?

Well. Groups of people always look for an "other" to delineate who "they" are not. I'm glad there are those who are willing to state that the principle behind this legislation is repugnant.

I guess we'll hear more about how some of the people who left one church in favour of another will handle this situation. I would imagine that many of them would view this as bad policy, if not with outright horror.

As reported previously, I believe in this newspaper, this legislation was concocted with the help of the "C Street" group - a so-called "evangelical" group that includes a number of senators and members of the House, who have connections in Uganda. The group believes that conventional Christianity has gotten it wrong about Jesus - that his message is about power, not love and forgiveness; it holds up Stalin, Hitler and Mao as examples of people who knew how to use power effectively, and therefore understood the message of Jesus. It is this kind of thought that has brought about this bill - a bill, incidentally, which would make it a crime to even speak out against the bill, or for any basic human rights for homosexuals, and require people to turn in any suspected homosexual, or face imprisonment. It is a horrible bill, which should be opposed by anyone with a shred of decency.

So we have a Christian God who supposedly created all of us to include homosexuals. Said God is therefore responsible for the defective gene/mind-set that causes homosexuality? One might conclude from this that the Christian God would therefore approve same-sex unions since that is the only sin-free state where any type of couple-sex can be performed.
______________________________

That sounds a little like my mother said re: sex is general (presumably heterosexual sex, "Why give people feelings and punish them for acting on them?").

Seems like the Cosmic Meanie won't let you, unless the Cosmic Meanie let somebody misquote His* Writ, which I am inclined to doubt.**

Let's simplify the matter and be clear. You can't be both a Christian and a sexually active homosexual, but strictly speaking you have the choice of one or the other because you have free will.

Of course nobody on His side recommends anything but Christianity because Christianity protects you from the consequences of sin (which everyone has by the way) and is easily worth a celibate lifetime. But it is a difficult lifetime, granted. I know what loneliness is like and I don't have to be gay to know.

* Why are we attributing biological sex to a spirit anyway? Do spirits have sex? That makes no sense to me. What makes sense to me is that in the old days of Abraham men were in authority, so God had to be a male to Abraham to be taken seriously in terms of Abraham's culture.

** I used to think it was a matter of "because I said so, human!" (Read Job.) The only good reason I can think of to insist on heterosexuality and no birth control or self abuse (but in the past) was if the world needed to be fully populated to the limits of its carrying capacity but that was hard because of famines, epidemics, and oh yeah, wars (including those against the Canaanites and Philistines in the Old Testament). I guess God likes a planet full of people (the nationalities did tend to vary in the Old Testament, Gentiles as a whole didn't get to be saved until the New Testament, although exceptions could join the nation of Israel)

The planet is at carrying capacity know you think?

Warren's moral bankruptcy is on display along with that of rank-and-file Christianists like the C Streeters. Failing to condemn the death penalty for a question of conduct, involving no harm to anyone else is indefensible.

This Uganda deal is instigated by The Family, the secretive, professed Christians that are based in the C Street house. The links between the Family and Uganda are detailed in the book, The Family, by Jeff Sharlett. The family includes adulterers John Ensign of Nevada and the guv of South Carolina. It also includes the adultery cover up specialist Inhofe. Throw in our Iowa senator Grassley to the stew too. These men are sociopaths that feel no guilt about their actions because they get their orders from God.

The only difference between American and Ugandan homophobes is the degree of their intolerance. Fundamentally, they are in complete agreement and American Christian homophobes would rather kill gays than allow them to marry. Being religious means you can justify hating anyone.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Sociopaths can and do have empathy, they simply explain/justify their actions. Psychopaths don't have empathy or guilt.

Dr. Robert Hare has a website too; he's the leading researcher on psychopaths (persons with antisocial personality disorder).

Hare Psychopathy Checklist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_Checklist-Revised_(PCL-R)

Debra J.M. Smith, you make an interesting comment:
"....However, if they are put in jail and or fined, for prevention reasons -- in order to stop them from being out-loud and boasting publicly of their perverted behavior, that would be a good thing. This would also stop them from pushing it on others and trying to get children to get involved in the perverted behavior."
I whole-heartedly concur. The hypocrites and bigots seeking to deny basic human rights on the basis of random social characteristics such as being blond, left-handed, or gay are indeed perverted. The fact that they see it fit to preach this perversion – particularly to children - warrants jail time in my opinion, too.

"Rick Warren's cowardice in not condemning the Ugandan government's death threat is almost as despicable as the legislation in question."

I agree.

Although I condemn the death penalty as a matter of principle, I can understand why people desire the deaths of, say, serial murderers or child molesters. But I'm mystified as to why anyone of any belief system would put homosexuality in that category. Do such people believe that heterosexuality is simply a matter of social approval, that all people would have sex with anyone and anything if society didn't disapprove?

The blog BoxTurtleBulletin has covered this issue extensively. The Uganda lawmakers started on this course following a conference involving anti-gay Americans, including Scott Lively, who claims the Nazi party was run by homosexuals.

American politicians and clergy and lay people are already involved! They help Uganda write the legislation and many US Politicians have been traveling to Uganda FOR YEARS to encourage this type of anti-gay behavior. (Look at Jim "Mountain' Inhofe from the sewer pit of Oklahoma)...

Mr. Cohn, the ex-gay guy who now write gay is a curable disease, will be on Rachel Maddow TONIGHT..Why don't you watch and get your data up to date since you clearly don't have any FACTS !! Swine...

Ugh! Censorship from WaPo and no story about Kevin Jennings. That's why your readership is declining. NAMBLA loves WaPo.

Horace1 writes: . . . nor homosexual offenders nor thieves … will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9. I don't know what Bible he's using (probably one written by someone with his same philosophy but it was not any Bible Christians use or have used), but the origins of the word "homosexual" are the late 19th century, NOT approximately 200 AD, the time Corinthians may have been written. (Even then, it was a political document meant to differentiate the early Christians from the "Greeks" a catchword for everyone else). Horace1's post is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. If it were up to Horace1 and the American Taliban, a bill similar to the Ugandan bill would be in some congressional committee right now, or, would have been before last year's election. One question--Has the world gone completely mad, including many posters here, when they would countenance murder for two consensual adults having sex in the privacy of their home?

I understand there is support for this Ugandan law among the most holy, chosen, above all laws, people of D. C.'s "The Family".
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/12/01/Maddow_on_Uganda_and_The_Family/

"I'm generally skeptical about any church that would condemnn homosexuality, but won't take that same hardline against rape or adultry :-/
Posted by: tootincommon | December 7, 2009 3:35 PM"

Well said!

Just as with attacks on Jews, so with attacks homosexuals, there is usually something else going on. The powerful need an internal enemy to blame; political expediency, not real enmity, is oft extant. Consider:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200912080586.html

Perhaps there is a real possibility of political change, that the government wishes to forestall.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200912080133.html

There may be something afoot between Rwanda and Uganda.

Can anyone now doubt that Rick Warren is a total as*? This person is a hypocritical sinner typical of his generation of moneygrabbing megapreachers. Shame on him and his!

1. Hatred is suicide. I John 3:15

2. The more you seek to silence the homosexuals, the more they will seek their expression, and the more you will need to silence them. It is hopeless.

Incidentally, you're confused. What is normal for a homosexual is not normal for everyone.

You think: heterosexual is normal for everyone.

Error: just for we the majority. The minority is not covered.

People are not the same. A few are different than us and no life misfortune (family rejection, unemployment, illness, poor self esteem, violence, termination, death) can change that. If it was a choice it would be an easy choice to be like us. The fact that so many of them are stuck with lives of woe means it is not a choice. Don't you get it without having to be like them? I've got it figured out, why not you? It's logical.

I think saner minds will eventually prevail and this savage bill will not become law, but should it, then Uganda should be isolated and boycotted with the same fervor as North Korea and Cuba and other "rogue" nations which have no regard for human rights.

Attempting to discern the reason for expensive and hateful acts oft leads to important findings.

Uganda is not fascist; Mouseveni is not, like Hitler, using an antipathy as an aid to conquest. Empowered since 1986, with Castro's wondrous opposition political party ban intact until 2005, Mouseveni has resorted to a variety of maneuvers to maintain power, including governmental interference in opposition political campaign activities, criiminal allegations against Besigye (exiled at one point, perhaps shot tomorrow), and even that ever-useful option, rape.

There is an underreported lack of complete friendship between Libya and Uganda:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/03/20/uganda.libya/index.html

This is not to say that the new law is not heinous, but that laws enacted with prudence (Mouseveni is shrewd) do not exist ex nihilo. Poor governments lack resources to terrorize at will.

"penal code" ....

Farnaz1Mansouri1 noted:

"Odd, coming from one (i.e. ccnl1) who does not believe that God created human. "

Hmmm, Farnaz is a professed Jewish atheist and proceeds to comment on "godly" affairs" ??? One strange woman!!!

Once again some observations about gay sex:

Lots and lots of "gays" doing their hot and heavy things on Internet tube sites but nothing about coin flipping, who is on first, and sanitizers sites?? There must be some "Gaying It For Dummies" books out there somewhere. Hmmm, I wonder if said books/sites have to have FDA and CDC approval??

Is said activity wrong and worthy of a trip to hell? Of course not but to the general heterosexual population it is yucky, unusual and not normal to them. With that mind set, approval by the majority is not always sanctioned in law.

The general population to include many of the voters in California, rightly or wrongly, find gay sexual activities, married or not, to be "yucky" and unusual and typically associate such activity with the spread of AIDS which is of course wrong. Said AIDS epidemic in the gay male community at the start of the AIDS crises will always remain unfortunately a stigma on the gay community.

Impressive list of gay people who did not let their yucky defect get in the way of being a contribution to society. Unfortunately, they were not able to contribute to the evolutionary process of DNA improvement via procreation.
And one will never know whether they would have achieved even greater achievements without said defect.

From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, gay sexual activity is still mutual masturbation caused by one or more complex sexual defects. Some defects are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell. Of course not all having these abnormal tendencies, show it outwardly as alluded to in the following synopsis:

From Wikipedia:
"Biology and sexual orientation is research into possible biological influences on the development of human sexual orientation. No simple cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, and there is no scientific consensus as to whether the contributing factors are primarily biological or environmental. Many think both play complex roles.[1][2] The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have both stated that sexual orientation probably has multiple causes.[3][4] Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual orientation. These include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. Conclusive proof of a biological cause of sexual orientation would have significant political and cultural implications. [5]"

If you wanna talk about strange bedfellows, look no further than our breakaway Episcopal parishes and these buddies of theirs, the Ugandan bishops.

They have made common cause with these "Death Panel" bishops for several years now. I wonder what shabby rationalization they will now offer.

These bishops' evinced lack of Christian charity is astounding and reprehensible.

I've composed a Poem for the occassion. What do you think?

One thin September soon
A floating continent disappears
In midnight sun

Vapors rise as
Fever settles on an acid sea

Snow glides from the mountain
Ice fathers floods for a season
A hard rain comes quickly

To Debra J.M. Smith of InformingChristians.com

Debbie, you are not a christian; christians do not judge others but only treat people the way they want to be treated. Period. If you support punishment of any kind, you must want to be punished! And if your jesus died for the sins of mankind, then there is no more sin, all is forgiven (except perhaps for an apology or compensation for having hurt someone.) You need to read that new testament more carefully for you have already failed the two major dictates of christianity. Or perhaps you are really a "heathen!"

95% of Uganda's support this measure. That tells us everything we need to know about Ugandans. They should be free to commit whatever attrocity they want to commit on their own people. But not one more penny, not one more dime of international money should be given to that country. No more US tax dollars (some of which are raised from gay and lesbian citizens) should be sent to Uganda. Secretary Clinton should make it absolutely clear to the Ugandan government that they pass this legislation at their own financial peril.

It is almost breathtaking that some Episcopal diocese in America want to be united with the church in Uganda. They are modern day Nazis, so profoundly corrupted by hate they are irredeemable.

I take exception to this statement proffered by cmarshdtihqcom:

"Uganda is a country that has a worse AIDS problem than we do. HIV is spread more easily by male homosexual activity than by heterosexual sex."

Consider that on a worldwide basis, the rate of AIDS infection is far higher in heterosexuals than in homosexuals. In some regions of Africa the rate is more than 60%, and the majority of those infections are between heterosexuals engaging in unprotected sex.

Your statement unfairly focuses this disease on homosexuals, further stygmatizing us. Also, how is any discussion of AIDS germane to this subject? Because the heterosexual community believes that AIDS somehow magically jumped from our community to theirs.

Religious leaders everywhere continually demonstrate their ignorance of human sexuality, thus justifying their villification and proposed extermination of gays everywhere. You want to blame someone else for your failings.

Back in the 1980s, WHO advised African leaders to begin educating their people about AIDS, how it's spread, and how to possibly combat it. They were laughed out of Africa, and no one but Africa is to blame for their failures. Their ineffectual handling of the crisis has condemned millions to a scourge worse than the medieval plague.

It is time to stop the madness coming from the so-called religious leaders of the world. Look to yourselves and stop blaming others for your transgressions.

fr debrajmsmith:

>...Actually, criminalizing homosexual behavior IS VERY compatible with the word of God and does not go against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in the least....

No, it is NOT "compatible with the word of God". Go and read the verse "Judge not, lest YE be judged". While you're at it, look up "love thy neighbor as thyself".

I am a gay Christian woman who married my lovely WIFE last year.

CCNL1 wrote (again):

"mutual masturbation"

What does CCNL1 have against foreplay?

A physician would back me up in that unprotected anal sex is a more efficient means of transmitting HIV than unprotected vaginal sex. Some heterosexuals do that too incidentally.

Of course homosexuals may resort to other kinds of sex, oral perhaps, or hand jobs.

Of course if you're having unprotected sex you're an idiot.

If you're depending on a condom to save your life you're also an idiot. You both should be tested and faithful to each other whether you are heterosexual or homosexual. Not less than Bill Kraus and Larry Kramer have condemned promiscuity in the gay community. (Bill Kraus on Wikipedia looks nothing like his portrayal in ...And The Band Played On) I've read And The Band Played On, The River, early histories of AIDS.

I am even handed in addressing the issues and avoid hatred. You might not like the opposing issue but I think you have to respect how I treat it.

Perhaps you're lovely too Alex. Not to make your wife jealous- I am dating.

If you're a Christian you've given God the right to tell you what to do. I know there is no direct "smoking gun" verse that says lesbians are to be executed. I asked a Christian once and she said maybe it is because cunnilingus is not a health hazard comparable to anal sex. I even think women are perhaps better partners than men.

Still, Romans first chapter casts lesbianism in a bad way.

What would you do if God required you to choose between Him and your wife? The English translation specifies "homosexual offenders" not going to Heaven. Who is responsible for causing homosexuality? God? Satan? I believe it is real and not a choice. If it came from God, it seems mean to lock Christians out of love for a lifetime.

There is a lot of loneliness and sadness and I guess at some point you wonder if you are human if they (humans) go off and get married and have families and you don't, because they don't seem to regard you as one of their species. I guess not thinking oneself is human is common with Asperger.

Maybe my journey is over. But if you are a gay Christian the journey only ends when you die.

That seems cruel. No wonder some people (Episcopalians) want to rationalize some way out for homosexuals to be good Christians and have lifelong relationships. People are desperate.

But I can't see an alternative. God seems to have all the exits closed off with those rules.

"A physician would back me up in that unprotected anal sex is a more efficient means of transmitting HIV than unprotected vaginal sex. Some heterosexuals do that too incidentally."

Does this directly pertain to the proposed law incarcerating someone for life, or executing them forthwith for their sexuality? And whether that law should be challenged by those within a religious faith?

There is no marriage in Heaven either, in case you miss in on Earth. I think the marriage between Jesus and the Church is supposed to be your lesson on what you missed out on.

Skowronek of course not. I was stating an assertion reinforced with medical findings without intending to make a political statement

"I wish you all would get saved, but then you would have to make restrictions on your liberty"

This perception is actually a misperception. Christ came to liberate us, not to put us in bondage. This business about being "handcuffed" by God is too much about "Thou shalt not" and not nearly enough about "Thou art".

There was a time (and still "is" in some denominations) when dancing was deemed sinful. How many angels, do you think, can dance on the head of a pin? तत् त्वम् असि -- "Thou art that" -- the dancer and the Dance are one. The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

Oh, and BTW, God don't make no junk!

Is said activity wrong and worthy of a trip to hell?
_________________________________

As far as the religion says, it is not a decision left up to flesh and blood, but up to spirit, and just one Spirit, God.

If it were left up to flesh and blood maybe it would not be a sin any more.

"As far as the religion says, it is not a decision left up to flesh and blood, but up to spirit, and just one Spirit, God."

Any arguments against homosexuality that are grounded in a particular religion's theology or dogma are pointless for people who subscribe to different religions or no religion. If anyone is going to argue that homosexuality is wrong, the argument should be a one-size-fits-all secular one, where the existence of any gods or other supernatural beings is an open question.

When the Ugandan's come out an anti pedophile law the catholic church will be up in arms
Posted by: scon101 | December 7, 2009 7:07 PM
Report Offensive Comment
this is offensive

It's interesting that these laws trace back to the old colonial "Crimes against nature" statutes. Since most psychologists and psychiatrists now agree that sexual orientation is genetic and determined at birth, and should be considered within the norm of human behavior, what could be more "unnatural" than a gay person having intercourse with a member of the opposite sex? Take a deep breath and get over it, Uganda: it's only Love.

More on gay sex aka "mutual masturbation" i.e. because of the absence of the required body parts required for the full "marriage act":

Hmmm lets see, in gay sexual activity, who plays the guy and who plays the gal? Who is on top and who is on the bottom? A coin flip? To say the least, an unusual situation. Then there are those "made in China" toys/strap-ons. Lets hope the FDA has checked them for lead and other toxic components. And do said "toys" come with sanitizers and/or sterilization instructions.

And after all of this rhetoric, gay "marriages" simply simplify and somewhat sanitize what are still "yucky" acts caused by a variant gene(s) and/or hormone imbalance. One wonders if stem cell research will find a cure??

Hmmm, would the embryos formed from the sperm of gay guys and the eggs from gay gals make more ethical embryos for this and other types of research?? "

Those of you debating at length about the morality or immorality of homosexuality seem to be missing the main point in this case: UGANDA IS ADVOCATING THE EXECUTION OF GAY PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY.

As for you self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou-ists tossing around the idea that homosexuals should be condemned to death: tell me where, oh where, is it written that homosexuality is a greater sin than MURDER? Then ask yourself: which of my loved ones, if s/he told you they were gay, would I be willing to kill with my own hateful, heinous hands?

Debra J.M. Smith: you're perpetuating the idea that homosexuals "recruit" children. The fact is that the vast, vast proportion of people who sexually abuse minors--including forcing them into prostitution--are heterosexuals. Is that how you "educate" Christians? Ignorance, as you know, breeds contempt (hatred), which is hardly a Christian value.

Apparently this law has the full agreement of the Ugandan Islamic community. It's nice to know that the Christians and the Moslems agree on something - hating teh gayz. (sarcasm)

95% of Uganda's support this measure. That tells us everything we need to know about Ugandans. They should be free to commit whatever attrocity they want to commit on their own people. But not one more penny, not one more dime of international money should be given to that country. No more US tax dollars (some of which are raised from gay and lesbian citizens) should be sent to Uganda. Secretary Clinton should make it absolutely clear to the Ugandan government that they pass this legislation at their own financial peril.

It is almost breathtaking that some Episcopal diocese in America want to be united with the church in Uganda. They are modern day Nazis, so profoundly corrupted by hate they are irredeemable.

POSTED BY: OCTOBER10S | DECEMBER 8, 2009 12:43 PM

___________

It tells you much more than that. You see, the same proportion of Germans (and most others) hated the Jews. Mere hatred, however, does not move a government to murderous action. Before Hitler actually killed the Jews, he went after the communists and other "subversives". It was only when the war was in progress, that the physical destruction of the Jews took place. One reason was to capitalize on the hatred of the local populace for Jews, in the Ukraine at least as bad as in Germany! This convinced many to support those they might otherwise have considered to be invaders. The same thing is likely going on here. It is very likely that Mousevani is feeling some real heat from the opposition.

Western media that is so quick to berate all things African

The law is meant to restore the cultural values, virtues and norms of Ugandans which homosexuality is targeting, especially among children.

Stop blaming Christians....Muslims, Hindus, African traditionalists...all support this law...In Africa life and fertility are sacred; anything that stunts or blocks them, such as unnatural acts, like homosexuality, are treated with contempt.

We, Ugandans know and believe that homosexuality involves practices that are dangerous and high risk to the human body which is designed for heterosexual functions.Uganda is willing to fight the spread of this abomination. Now if only the WEST would follow suit,we could rid ourselves of this vile filth.

It should be understood in the west that in black African cultures homosexuality, whether male or female, is very much taboo. Anti-gay sentiment is widespread and appears to have always been so. It is nothing to do

with Western religion, neocolonialism or interference, it is simply a common theme in most African cultures. There is no need to seek out western Christian fundamentalists to explain thousands of years of African culture.

Western media that is so quick to berate all things African

The law is meant to restore the cultural values, virtues and norms of Ugandans which homosexuality is targeting, especially among children.

Stop blaming Christians....Muslims, Hindus, African traditionalists...all support this law...In Africa life and

fertility are sacred; anything that stunts or blocks them, such as unnatural acts, like homosexuality, are treated with contempt.

We, Ugandans know and believe that homosexuality involves practices that are dangerous and high risk to the human body which is designed for heterosexual functions.Uganda is willing to fight the spread of this abomination. Now if only the WEST would follow suit,we could rid ourselves of this vile filth.

It should be understood in the west that in black African cultures homosexuality, whether male or female, is very much taboo. Anti-gay sentiment is widespread and appears to have always been so. It is nothing to do with Western religion, neocolonialism or interference, it is simply a common theme in most African cultures.There is no need to seek out western Christian fundamentalists to explain thousands of years of African culture.

Horace, this has nothing to do with Western or African culture. It's outrageously and immoral to use execution to enforce cultural norms. If the justification is the sacredness of fertility, then Uganda might as well execute any straight people who refuse to procreate. Or execute all men who pleasure themselves. Or execute anyone who attempts to use or distribute contraception. Or have forced impregnation of all fertile women.

Homosexuality doesn't "stunt or block" fertility because gays aren't interfering with straights' ability or desire to procreate. What do you mean by "the spread" of homosexuality? Are you saying that straights are tempted to turn gay? If so, why would they be?

Also, how would someone prove to the court system that someone is gay? It would be very easy for the law to create a McCarthyist atmosphere, where anyone can accuse an enemy of being gay. I've read that the American military's "don't ask, don't tell" rule is often used as a form of sexual retaliation. In such cases, a female service member won't sleep with a male comrade, or she lodges a formal complaint of sexual harassment, and the comrade retaliates by accusing her of being a lesbian.

"I am sorry for your needs that put you in that situation, but we're not dealing with God who will negotiate here. God is a King. The last time we had a king we had a revolutionary war. But there is no democracy or Constitution with God."
Posted by: cmarshdtihqcom

cmarshdtugqinm,
That's exactly the problem I have with religion involving itself in government. Your religion may be "no democracy" and have "no Constitution," but here in the US we do. We fought a war over that, and we won, remember?

We negotiate, we compromise, and we accept difference. I understand that your faith calls you to an absolute submission to what you think is God's will, but that's all it is, what you believe. You no more know the true mind of God than I do. And, here in the states, you have no right to pass laws telling others how they may live.

Of course, Uganda is a sovereign nation, and in the states we really have no say on their legal system. I can (and do) feel revulsion at such cruel and oppressive rules, but I'm not a citizen of Uganda, all I can do is register that revulsion.

Also, cmarshdtihqcom, regarding your "...but still, it is more difficult to catch HIV heterosexually (at least for men)," statement, so women and their children are irreverent? That's a strange defense, to say the least.

We're not concerned with creating a kingdom of God here Gimpi. God will do that Himself and even if the USA fought to stop it it would lose, either in the 1,000 year kingdom before Satan is vanquished or in the eternal kingdom after Satan in vanquished for good.

The only thing I suggested "for men" is that vaginal fluid is much less efficient a carrier of HIV than blood from a torn rectum, which is not to say that other homosexual possibilities are not possible (oral, manual).
============
Strictly speaking Uganda is trying to define homosexuality by observable behavior only. It can't get inside people's heads, nor can it. I lament its death penalty idea but I can understand what with its HIV problem why a population frequently practicing an unsafe sexual method might be segregated from society.

Yes, condoms go a long way to prevent infection and spread. But condoms are not fail safe, they are fail DEADLY. Only abstinence is fail safe and obviously homosexuals don't abstain.

I am not an expert on how frequently you can expect a condom to fail in anal sex, nor the promiscuity of the gay community in Uganda or infection rates in Uganda. But what we do know is unprotected anal sex is more dangerous than unprotected vaginal sex, generally, to both partners, especially the receiving partner. Uganda might be trying to save itself while it still has a country left to save, and the retrovirals we take for granted are expensive by Ugandan standards. It must be considered that some homosexuals are bisexual and are married to women and have children.

Perhaps if there were strict monogamy for homosexuals in Uganda, the dynamics would favor them instead and remove reasons for incarceration. Gay activists in America such as Larry Kramer and Bill Kraus have comdemned gay promiscuity. Is the promiscuity partly to send a message to homophobes that the gay community will not be intimidated?

But I don't think we can fairly judge the Ugandans unless we are Ugandan, or judge the Eskimo for the elderly volunteering to die on ice floes unless we are Eskimo. We have an sexually educated country with condoms and retrovirals widely available, in contrast to Uganda. In contrast to the Eskimo, we have plenty of food, albeit grown via a process that consumes 10 calories of petroleum for every food calorie created.

Bon appetite.

I think the reason never to let them out of prison might be because if they don't have HIV going into prison, they might catch HIV while in prison. Then, they would be a danger to uninfected people on the outside upon release.

Sadly, and this hit me suddenly, whether execution is used or not, these are going to be death camps. I doubt Uganda is going to purchase retrovirals for the prisoners at the expense of its infected citizens. Untreated people with HIV will certainly die from Kaposi's sarcoma, pneumonia carnii, toxoplasmosis or some other opportunistic infection. I imagine those infections will spread easily in the crowded conditions, perhaps with poor sanitation and insufficient food.

The Bible had said for a long time not to have any sex before marriage, not to have any sex outside of marriage (A=abstinece to marriage, B=be faithful). In this case, as it has been incidentally for thousands of years, Biblical good advice has followed sound medical advice. But in Africa for whatever reason (the inferior status of women) they refused to listen.

Debra J.M. Smith: you're perpetuating the idea that homosexuals "recruit" children. The fact is that the vast, vast proportion of people who sexually abuse minors--including forcing them into prostitution--are heterosexuals. Is that how you "educate" Christians? Ignorance, as you know, breeds contempt (hatred), which is hardly a Christian value.
______________________

You're wrong, Debbie, in thinking the kiddies were straight and the homosexuals made the kids gay.

That idea is rooted in the false idea that everyone is straight and the homosexuals are sick or deviant. You think it is all some sort of choice, but you must be crazy to think anyone would choose a lifestyle that causes
1. being kicked out of the house
2. losing your friends
3. being excommunicated or disfellowshipped
4. being terminated or dishonorably discharged
5. and by extension losing your health insurance
6. and probably the place you live
7. and being hungry
8. and getting sick esp. with HIV (you have no health insurance remember)
9. getting verbally abused and rejected
10. having a poor self esteem
11. getting beat up
12. possibly raped
13. and maybe winding up dead from murder or a disease

Hey! let's be homosexuals!
I beat I'll die before you!
No wait, I bet I'll beat you to Hell.

Do you know how crazy that sounds, Deb?
But you think people recruit themselves to be gay.

No, people make the best of it because they can't escape being gay.

Some of them, bless them, just might choose to be celibate if God asks them too (you know, not to have a same sex sex partner).

The rest of them won't. But then again, wuldn't you have a problem with being celibate, especially if you didn't do anything wrong?

Hey, I had some difficulty being lonely and isolated watching everyone else be married. Asperger syndrome means a low statistical probability of marriage (probably a low probability of marriage to an average woman who outnumber women with Asperger 150 to 1). I think relationships on a similar neurological level (or at least attraction works) work, but people with Asperger are widely scattered in a larger population of "normals".

I've been dating a woman with cerebral palsy for a while (neurological differences). This may be the end of it at age 39, I don't know. Praise God when it is does end.

But it will never end for a gay Christian until death, as long as the gay Christian and God insist on opposite goals.

I won't bend the rules for anyone. I know the Episcopalians and Unitarians are strongly tempted to bend the rules to resolve the desperation for gay Christians, to rationalize a solution, but God does not rationalize or negotiate.

But at least I can have a heart when I bring it up, and I can set the truth about homosexuality straight. I am convinced that they mean it, it makes rational sense, it is not masochism.

"We're not concerned with creating a kingdom of God here Gimpi. God will do that Himself and even if the USA fought to stop it it would lose, either in the 1,000 year kingdom before Satan is vanquished or in the eternal kingdom after Satan in vanquished for good."
Posted by cmarshdtihqcom

I'm not sure if I should be relieved or worried about your response. How reassured would you be if a Muslim told you not to lose any sleep over Islamic Jihad, since Allah would eventually bring about unity under Islam, no matter how the people feel about it. I doubt you would be reassured.

Also many (mostly) conservative Christians feel very strongly about putting their ideas about God's will into law. From your statement, I'm not sure if you're one of them.

I understand you believe God's will for gay people is to remain celibate, and to just accept the injustice that you acknowledge in not being allowed the comforts of relationship as some sort of sacrifice. You can believe that all you want, but I don't want you to be able to give it force of law. Do you want to?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1946645,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Scott Lively is mentioned above - he would probably have the credibility of Dan Brown if it weren't for Uganda's colonial history. But almost as irrational as Lively's bonkers theory is the idea of "promoting homosexuality". Do the Ugandans and the fundamentalist Christians believe that straight people can be swayed into homosexuality by clever marketing? "Hey guys, are you tired of breasts?" It's almost like they believe that sexual desire is amorphous, or that heterosexuality exists as a social norm only.

"many (mostly) conservative Christians feel very strongly about putting their ideas about God's will into law."

And if they can't or won't present secular arguments for those laws, they're essentially endorsing theocracy.

But the more basic question is, what basis is there for making any claim about the will of gods, even if we assume that one or more gods exist? What about the possibility that the Christian god exists but that the authors of Leviticus and Romans were wrong about that god's position on homosexuality? There's no reason to assume that any religion's scripture is authoritative. I could just as easily claim that the Christian god wants people to have sex only on Fridays, and that would be as equally unprovable as anything in the Bible or the Koran. Some of those books' prescriptions for human behavior have merit, but the issue is the claim that the books are authoritative.

About the only fair thing to say is take it or leave it. Gays who aren't Christians don't have a problem. Gays who are Christians are in a tough spot. Their feelings say to have sex with their own gender, and they might, but if they do, it contradicts the written word that governs their conduct as Christians.

Christians put themselves in the position of being told what to do by scripture and by other Christians, whether they are gay or not. (Heterosexual Christians can only have sex if married, and there are other rules of good conduct to follow as well other than sexual)

Actually, people who aren't Christian do have a problem, but they don't know it until they die. Jesus never paid their sins so they're off to the basement instead of the ceiling.

Please note that under pressure from religious groups in Uganda, Uganda has dropped the death penalty and life imprisonment from its proposed bill.

I know you may not like any prison sentence or not even a slap on the wrist, but Uganda has four times the HIV prevalence we do, and had lost maybe a million or more people to AIDS in a country of an estimated 32 million. Maybe if we lost more people to AIDS than to every war we ever had, we'd panic too.

We of course in the West know that promiscuity is the problem. There must be vast promiscuity in Uganda. Under conditions of monogamy, whether gay or straight, HIV would not exponentiate like it has. Indeed, the two most effective strategies in Uganda are Abstinence (Delay Sex) and Be Faithful.

Gerson wrote a column on this subject. Of course, he condemned the idea of this legislation and identified two Republican politicians and the Rev Warren as being opposed.

What was so odd is that he did not identify any Democrats, other religious leaders of other faiths. Only two Republicans and Warren.

Setting the stage to be able to say: Not our fault.

AIDS is a problem in Uganda because guys are the problem...they always have been. When are you all going to get honest?! The reason they have such a problem w/ gays in Africa, is because most of the women in Africa can't stand the men there- they're idiots. They have sex w/ little girls to cure their aids!! What??? That's why the aids epidemic is so high! I think we should take the women out of Africa and let the men kill each other- the women have nothing to do w/ their stupidity! Let the men kill each other and leave women out of it...they're not the problem.

...and why is it that gay rights didn't reach this kind of crescendo, until women started claiming their rights to love who they chose to. Is this what all the hype is about? Could it be, that if women have a choice, they choose not to love someone who tries to manipulate, intimidate, and control! That's not how you get love...or respect!