Bible references on U.S. gun sights?

"these U.S.-issue, Bible-cite sights (cleverly added to the serial numbers) would seem to violate U.S. military rules against proselytizing. Don't they also violate the unconditionally loving spirit of the New Testament?"

Waters is right on the first point. I take no position on the latter because the larger issue isn't about Christianity. It doesn't matter which religion the soldiers inscribed on the official weaponry, because the act of doing so suggests a holy-war mentality. These men and women are supposed to be putting their lives on the line for America, not for any particular religion.

No different than the Islamic credo to say "God is the Greater" whenever a combatant is ethically killed in battle.

I does make you wonder - who would Jesus shoot?

Hmmm, there should only be these references on USA rifle sniper sites:

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,478 killed in action, 899 non-comabat, 95,021 – 103,673, Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 675, 198 killed in non-combat situations as of 01/15/2010. The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) reported that 2,118 Afghan civilians were killed by armed conflict in 2008, the highest number since the end of the initial 2001 invasion. This represented an increase of about 40% over UNAMA's figure of 1,523 Afghan civilians killed in 2007.

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

Hmmm, there should only be these references on USA rifle sniper sights:

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,478 killed in action, 899 non-comabat, 95,021 – 103,673, Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 675, 198 killed in non-combat situations as of 01/15/2010. The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) reported that 2,118 Afghan civilians were killed by armed conflict in 2008, the highest number since the end of the initial 2001 invasion. This represented an increase of about 40% over UNAMA's figure of 1,523 Afghan civilians killed in 2007.

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

Hmmm, and we see the "Torah-violating" "Carstonio" has made another commentary. Keep in mind that this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

If I'm not mistaken, the military has a long tradition of naming weapons after mythical creatures and gods.

Apparently, they are continuing that tradition, using current mythologies, based on the fictitious writings found in the various bibles.

I love it! Ingenious idea of advertising on gun sights! In fact, I’m thinking that the real issue is not the content of the inscription but whether we have opened up the competition for gun sight sponsorship in an unbiased and politically correct manner. I mean let’s be fair. Why can’t Chick-fil-A get in on the action and buy advertising gun sight time with their, “Eat more Chikin” slogan. Or Miller Lite could cough up some advertising dough for a cool “Tastes Great, Less Filling,” gun sight. Heck, let’s let the entire secular world proselytize using the highly visible medium of gun sights. That is the word isn’t it?

Come on AT&T get with the program! Here’s a golden opportunity for super duper global advertising! “Reach Out and Touch Someone” or “Your World. Delivered.” Take your pick.

Custom NASCAR type gun sights with multiple corporate sponsors! Now that's American ingenuity and entrepreneurship.

Institutionalized Christian sectarianism in the military is more and more widespread. Not only does it compromise us in the manner David Waters describes but it creates division and bigotry within the ranks. In the United States of America, servicemen are required to listen to Christian prayers, and it gets more divisive.

This is part and parcel of the abject posture permitting a gang of bishops in league with right-wing Protestants to legislate, as in the case with the health care bill, which, as it stands withholds from impoverished women their right to choose. Impeding the progress of civil rights by standing in the way of gay marriage is another high priority of the Chosen Clerics. When laws do not exist to protect their interests, laws come into being, as is the case with the notorious "conscience clause."

It should be noted that conscience clause type legislation is emblematic of theocratic and fascist regimes. What is next.

For more on Christian sectarianism in the Military:

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/urgent_issues.html

http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/chalker_dismissal_filing.pdf

Michael L. “Mikey” Weinstein | Founder and President, of the "non-profit" Military Religious Freedom Foundation pays himself over $250,000 per year which is about 50% of the donations made to said group in 2008. See the foundation's IRS Form 990 which is posted on line. Nice work if you can get it!!!

More on "Mikey":

So maybe Mikey could give us some examples of how he was discriminated against in the military?? Or could it be some embellishments for book fill?? Personally, doing KP and cleaing latrines were very harmful to my psyche. Darn, I should have written a book about that!!!

Hopefully, he sent a thank you note (or check) to the USA taxpayers for his free education at the Air Force Academy. Hmmm, did the taxpayers also pay his way through law school??

From Wikipedia:

"In October 2005, Weinstein sued the United States Air Force for permitting proselytization by evangelical Christian officers. U.S. District Judge James A. Parker, who presided over Weinstein v. U.S. Air Force, dismissed the case, stating, "No Plaintiff claims to have personally experienced any of the things described under “Factual Allegations"... while at the Academy or after leaving the Academy." "The only fair reading of Plaintiffs’ factual allegations limits them to practices and events at the Academy and policies as they affect persons, other than Plaintiffs, at the Academy." "Not a single Plaintiff has alleged any personal factual situation that has allegedly impinged on that Plaintiff’s constitutional rights since the Plaintiff left the Academy."

Re: Michael Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Visit the sight, and read the pdf., if you are interested. It concerns a case in which plaintiffs were very much present, but which was dismissed. We are left to draw the obvious conclusions.

If you object to the sort of thing Waters details, Weinstein's organization is the best place to bring your concerns.

As for Weinstein's "salary," his cv is online. What he is paid is nothing when compared to what he has given up. This is not a "job" he "needs."

As an Army veteran of 2 wars I am disgusted by this, we serve this nation, not a church, nor a religion, yes soldiers find God in foxholes, but noen of us have ever felt we were on a "mission of God" some LT or CPT or some other officer told us what to do, not any angels.......the law plainly states no mixing of government and religion, this company has broken the law, make them pay to fill the engravings and repaint the sights, if they can't fill and sand them down smooth then the company can pay to replace them we ordered 600 million unadvertised models of sights fix them or replace them and then they can sell the "religious sights" on the open market I am sure there are plenty of God loving gun touting nut jobs that will buy them

If you think radical Islam will lay down before your "interfaith dialogue" and secular values, you are complete fools. In fact, it is you who they hate the most.

Yea, I'm sure Yawheh/Allah is proud of his followers now.

And "Jesus" is the King of Peace, I guess if your "peace" is that of the grave?

Someone wrote "Don't they also violate the unconditionally loving spirit of the New Testament?"

Well, YES!

What God was that.

The reason why America will lose in the first phase of WW3 is because it's imperative that the idiots in America like Welton Gaddy and David Waters will have to pay for their stupidity.

Stupidity is self-destructive and nobody can stop, (not even the strongest army in the world) these idiots from self-destructing.

The U.S military heirarchy had already ordered the burning of Bibles. They still have to pay for it coz God's wrath has not ebb yet. More wars are coming in America's way.

For as long as stupidity resides in America, war will not end.

An awful lot of people, who understand an awful lot more about actual violence than the manufacturers of these gun parts, find this sort of thing rather offensive. It's not cause your faith is burlier, or any more right about anything at all in the world, it's because it's an offense to peace. It's just that simple. It is a simple enough reason to vastly overwhelm any reasoning for putting it there in the first place.

If a soldier wants to write some message for himself and others on his weapon, & it's not in the best interests of the overall mission, it's a bad idea. Writing "I hate Al-Quada" might help in Iraq, writing "I hate Iraqi's" in 3 languages probably would not.

The unrelieved lack of respect for people of other religions that goes with what these jerks have done is a serious insult to an awful lot of the American people. Never mind the total rejection for the First Amendment of the US Bill of Rights in doing what they did. Let's all pretend that's ok cause it's for Jesus? No, it's not ok, not right, and is a settled matter of basic law. Next thing you know Baptists are shooting Protestants are shooting Catholics or some nutty thing. Not like any of that doesn't happen elsewhere.

White Christians do plenty good at getting up to shooting each other over religion, and keeping at it too. But hey, Sarah Palin can't see Northern Ireland from her house either, so I guess that omission is to be expected.

This isn't even news considering we've already had the Commander in Chief of US Army called this war a crusade against islamofacists and said that he attacked Iraq because God ordered him to do so in his dream!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

Hey, Burma moved it's capitol because of the advice of an astrologer. I suspect we're lucky the federal government didn't relocate to Texas.

This is a commercial, off the shelf product. The military did not specify the addition of the bible verse; it was added by the manufacturer.

THE UNITED STATES has it's own Jihadist Christian Taliban too. What's the difference? This only confirms that fact.

You know, in spite of the anti-Christian bias of many of the comments here, I really don't have any problems with Bible verses on the sights used by American soldiers. I don't hear them making the same complaints of the Quran verses on practically everything carried or worn by Islamic terrorists who are at war with the West. Don't complain about Bible verses used on our stuff until you start complaining about the Muslims turning this into a religious war and writing about killing the infidels and how Allah is good on their stuff. If you can't be fair to both sides, then don't say anything at all.

We are a Christian country so this does not bother me.

Their are around 14 different religions serving in our military.
What would happen if every religion wanted a message about their religion on their rifle?
I think some know these wars are not about terrorism, but empire building.
Like some one said. Who would Jesus shoot?

Kill - Kill - Kill - it's what Jesus Christ taught! It's there right in the Bible! If you don't accept the giving loving grace of Jesus Christ - you should be put to death! He is the prince of peace and the only way to have peace is for all to either come to him or be put assunder! John - 15:12

If American military policy is to win civilian hearts and minds away from al Qaeda and the Taliban, inscribing Biblical passages on the scopes of rifles is not the best way to do it. This has nothing to do with Christian-bashing; it has everything to do with effective policy.

Yea, I'm sure Yawheh/Allah is proud of his followers now.

And "Jesus" is the King of Peace, I guess if your "peace" is that of the grave?

Posted by: Nymous | January 20, 2010 12:34 AM
------------------------------------
It would be Jesus whom they are, well, shooting. And shooting does seem to be a thing with the followers of Christ, if we are to judge from history. Neither Hashem (YWYH is the tetragrammaton--unpronounceable, nonreferential) nor Allah appears to be involved.

They should put "I can See Russia From Here" on all rifle scopes.

Trijicon has been doing this for years, it's hardly a secret. I don't believe they're proselytizing anyone, you almost need a magnifier to see the inscription, it's not as if it were cast into the body of the device in 18-point type.

Trijicon's sights work very well -- and they're not "high-powered rifle sights," they're simply a telescopic sight device. If you are going to write about weapons, do some research first.

Al-Quaida and the hard-core Taliban most certainly ARE engaging in what they believe to be jihad -- a crusade by any other name.

I am pretty liberal and I don't see a thing wrong with this. You can't send men to face death and expect them to forget their religion while they are there. We certainly did similar things in every previous war. Anyone remember the Battle Hymn of the Republic? And I would not have any problem with an American Soldier who is Muslim putting his religion's words on his personal gear. And nothing is more personal gear than a soldier's rifle.

If you are a total pacifist that is fine. But unless you think fighting to end slavery, fighting to destroy Nazism, or fighting to kill extremists who are trying to commit mass murder of your country's citizen is anti-christian then cut the guys who are doing the fighting some slack.

Some Jihadi complains that Mr. Bush said the following:
"I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."
Is that not better than his prophet saying”I was commanded by Allah to wage war against people until they say”There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is His prophet”.

I think an appropriate inscription on all weapons is "Thou shalt not kill." I think weapons are essential to the mission of the police and military, that is, to maintain civil order and to defend the citizenry. When I was taught to shoot a weapon in the Air Force, it did bother me that the targets were a human shape with the bullseye on the heart. Why do they always teach to shoot to kill? Why not teach to shoot to disable. Tazers, mace, pepper spray, rubber bullets, etc. are weapons that perform the mission without killing. I have known soldiers who have killed, and they are all never the same afterwards. There seems to always be a remaining remorse whether hidden or on the surface. I think this is so because killing another human being is against our basic nature. I pray for God's grace for those who kill while performing the mission. I pray for police and military members who are in harm's way that they can avoid a simple kill in favor of a disabling action. I greatly appreciate these people for putting themselves in jobs that expose themselves to possibility of killing. These people deserve much more compensation than we provide. Even more so for firefighters, rescuers of all kinds, etc., those who put their own lives on the line without carrying a weapon. These are all heroes who deserve our appreciation and prayers.

I find the manufacturer's action to be highly objectionable. This indicates to me that our evangelical Christian populace is just as steeped in superstition and the use of incatatitions and talismans as the jihadist opponents we face.

Whether the combatants are counting on the name and words of Allah or the name and words of Jesus - God's apparent replacement - the practice suggests that the user and/or provider has yet to evolve beyond the dark ages. Does the manufacturer sell potions and amulets against witchcraft, too?

While I am not in favor of religious commentary being officially placed on rifle sights, I am equally disturbed by the converse implication of the smart-aleck use of the scripture quotes at the end of the article - they at the very least create the thought that our soldiers, who are serving those of us who sit around and write op-ed pieces as they serve in Afghanistan and around the world, are somehow doing something "un-Christian" by using those rifles. We should all be careful about the reach of our rhetoric, and it seems that where Waters antipathy toward all things religious is aroused, he should be careful more than most. In his zeal to attack a perceived institutionalized Christianity in the military, Waters impliedly attacks the people who defend him with their lives.

I personally believe as a political matter that the wars we are currently fighting are not necessary under the terms on which they are being fought, but I by no means believe that our soldiers in the field are wrong, ungodly, or in violation of scriptural principles of personal character when they act honorably as citizens and soldiers in those wars. If the wars we have placed them in are begun and fought in violation of Christian ideas, that is our fault, not theirs.

I don't care what God you pray to or for that matter, none at all, as long as the bullet finds it's target. I do care about secular/religious coercion. No one should be forced to sacrifice their beliefs by those more powerful. The only thing wrong with our countries policy is there needs to be a draft or war tax. We become a bunch of whining rich lazy complainers. If you're over 18, go find a recruiter. Yes, I'm a veteran.

WWJS - who would Jesus shoot.

Any person knowledgeable about the Christian religion knows the two great truths about its history:

1. It is complicated -- adherents of the religion, yes, started wars and have done other great evils in the name of their religion -- AS WELL, many many more adherents have built universities, hospitals, rescue and relief missions and done many good things to end suffering and make people more free.

2. It is continually plagued by splinter cults. As it was in the beginning, now and forever, there are those who use selected words, signs, symbols and sacred words of Christianity to create cults. The Jesus cult in the American military is another splinter cult that finds the symbolism and imagery useful, but not the true meaning of Christ's words -- for if they followed Jesus' teaching, they would not be soldiers -- their entire profession is repudiated by the meaning of Jesus' words. But, Christianity -- 2,000 years shows this -- has some pretty powerful organizing elements, and cults want those, but conveniently do away with the core of the religion (which is a hard one to truly follow) because no practical person would want to give up what they have, and live an ascetic life of nonviolence and prayer.

All of the politically correctness on the planet will not protect our soldiers, or any of you cowards that choose not to join the service and do a tour to protect your rights.

That cheesy movies Starship Troopers had one line, Service Guarantees Citizenship, and I think that ought to be the way in the US of A.

I find it often amusing that the people who speak out so vociferously against these things, are the very cowards that demand to be protected.

I did my 8 years. Sacrificed time with my family, missed birthdays and holidays, and first steps, and first smiles and first laughs.

To those of you complaining and whining what have you sacrificed. What have you done to help anyone, ever?

Did you go without your Starbux frapudork drink one day? Did mommy and daddy make you drive a used car?

Suck it up and shut your pie holes until you have stood in their boots.

The sightes must have been procured through a government contract. Government contracts are usually very precise on what the product must be, its specifications, etc. If these messages were not in the contract then the company has not delivered what the contract specified. The messages must at leat be distracting when a soldier is performing what must be a serious and stressful job.

All sightes should be returned to the company, the contract voided and payments made by the government for the sightes recouped. It happens all the time in government contracting when a company delivers what was has not met the contracts provisions, and I see no reason why these sightes should be considered to have met the contract specs, unless such messages were specified in the contract, which I seriously doubt.

Stand up Pentagon and void this contract. Then find a company to produce the sights that have the product you want and not their own agenda to push via our tax dollars.

America seems to forget the role of the Bible to its greatness. If America has no respect for these Bible verses, our soldiers should better as well leave Afghanistan and Iraq.

They will only be destroyed by the enemies. Without respect for the word of God, everything a person does is a lost cause.

If the military hierarchy orders a recall to these sights, Christian soldiers should take this as a cue that they too should take a very long leave of absence coz it's not worthy to be led by a stupid leadership.

It's impossible to defend a nation who has no respect for the word of God. Part of America cannot be defended anymore. It is set to be doomed and that's the prophecy.

Let the soldiers who want no inscription in their sights do the fighting. There is always the right time to fight and not at a time when the leadership promotes stupidity like burning Bibles or recalling sights for tiny biblical inscriptions.

MycroftH wrote: "In his zeal to attack a perceived institutionalized Christianity in the military, Waters impliedly attacks the people who defend him with their lives."

I do not see Waters attacking any soldier in this article. To the contrary he is defending their right not to be prostylitized. Soldiers cannot choose which sight to use or when to use it. They are a captive audience for this company's religious message. Waters is attacking this company and its prostylitizing to our soldiers against their will, not the soldiers themselves.

MycroftH wrote: "I personally believe as a political matter that the wars we are currently fighting are not necessary under the terms on which they are being fought, but I by no means believe that our soldiers in the field are wrong, ungodly, or in violation of scriptural principles of personal character when they act honorably as citizens and soldiers in those wars. If the wars we have placed them in are begun and fought in violation of Christian ideas, that is our fault, not theirs."

I completely agree as I believe Waters would too. To place these soldiers in a situation where they are told they are killing for Christ is even worse though, and that I believe is Waters' main point. Would you want your son or daughter to come home after war believing Christ is a god of war and they a soldier fighting for God? This company evidently believes that and is spreading its message directly to our soldiers via our tax money. I find it more than offensive.

The Taliban would accept those sights very gladly if the U.S. military thinks they can't use it anymore. I suggest that we donate it to them so the leftist evolutionists in America would feel so relieved.

"You can't send men to face death and expect them to forget their religion while they are there. We certainly did similar things in every previous war. Anyone remember the Battle Hymn of the Republic?"

That song is vile because it embodies a holy-war concept. I condemn that concept in any religion. The specific issue here is that America is not supposed to be fighting holy wars, no matter what the motives of the enemy nations or terrorists. No one is asking our soldiers to give up their personal beliefs, but only to act as soldiers and not as evangelists - the weapons are government property.

Stupidity is self-destructive and true to form, these leftist evolutionists are now in flock here asking to recall those said sights.

If these idiots would find an JN3:16 on those 2 billion dollar stealth bombers, they would not hesitate to ask the military to dismantle those planes.

If America wants to win any war, the military should listen to these leftist evolutionists but then do the opposite.

Hire them as advisers but be sure never to follow their advice.

Seems spiderman is in favor of the religious inscriptions our soldiers are being forced to read. I have no better argument for this being a bad thing.

Forced to read JN8:12? Are you crazy? Im a bible reader but I don't know what that verse says unless I open the bible.

This gives me an idea that if ever I can invent a very useful gadget, I'll inscribe the name of Jesus in that product so no idiot will ever use it.

I think that is the purpose of the founder of the company. The owner wants to make sure that his devices don't end up in the hands of idiots.

SIGH!

As a Christian I find this to be disgusting and abhorrent. The violence/war is bad enough but to quote Jesus on a weapon is just wrong. In fact, the Apostle Paul uses the term the spirit of the "anti-Christ" to describe such things. Essentially, these kind of actions and beliefs not only are the exact opposite of Jesus' teachings they purport to be in his name something far more insidious.

nunivek wrote "As a Christian I find this to be disgusting and abhorrent.The violence/war is bad enough".

As usual, the people who see our soldiers as purveyors of violence are the same people who want these sights recalled. Stupidity is always self-destructive. He calls himself a Christian but is so clueless about the Bible.

More than the biblical inscription, the Muslim world is more worried about the sanity of America as it legalizes marijuana in DC and other states. This is so insulting to them to think that a world leader is a drug addict also.

This is what breeds hate in the Muslim world. It's the stupidity that inflicts America, and not much about the Bible.

"Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Are they night vision scopes?

So-who let spidermean back on? Back to his old tricks. Ignorance must be bliss, indeed. Jesus preached peace. To use verses quoting him on instruments of war is blasphemy. Christianity was pacifist during its first couple of centuries of existence, remembering how Jesus said that "those who pick up the sword shall die by the sword," and his refusal (as well as that of his disciples) even to defend themselves. Unfortunately, when the church went to bed wth empire, all that changed. In the sixties, i was "kill a commie for Christ." Now we put Bible verses on gun sights.

We are not a Christian nation. We are a pluralistic nation, where there is supposed to be separation of church and state. The one blogger was correct about the specs - I worked, for a while, with a couple of companies that did a lot of military work. The specs are provided by the military, and they send in inspectors to check the work several times. If the work is not "up to spec," it has to be done over. The sights should be returned. They are an affront to Christians because of their message, and an affront to those of other faiths who must carry that message into the battlefield with them. If they want to put something appropriately nationalistic on them (or an advertizement for Chic-Fillet!), that's fine. But killing people in the name of the one who said, "what you do to the least of these, you have done to me?" That's not something I'd want to carry into battle.

Much ado about nothing.

The late George Carlin once quipped that when you find yourself talking about f@rts, there are more important topics that you've overlooked.

Mr. Waters, please find a more important topic.

The WA-PO Anti-God Squad is indeed very busy. Do the gun sights work? Are they defective? Do they help kill the enemy? Do the soldiers using these optical enhancers even realize what the numbers on these sights refer to?

The Anti-God Squad hates all religions and all references to the Bible. It must infuriate them that US currency has the motto: In God We Trust. It must infuriate them that it says in our Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

What's next? Bible verses on condoms?

How about:

Mutilate a Muslim for the Messiah

or

Incinerate and Islamic for Israel

The WA-PO Anti-God Squad is indeed very busy. Do the gun sights work? Are they defective? Do they help kill the enemy? Do the soldiers using these optical enhancers even realize what the numbers on these sights refer to?

The Anti-God Squad hates all religions and all references to the Bible. It must infuriate them that US currency has the motto: In God We Trust. It must infuriate them that it says in our Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

Posted by: alance | January 20, 2010 11:36 AM

=================

People don't necessarily believe that God is much into killing and money. You might recall what Jesus said when he was shown a coin by the Pharisees .... Was it ... My name should be on that coin or Render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and unto God that which belongs to God?

Perhaps you recall the Thirty Pieces of Silver and how that relates to God? Or how about when Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers in the temple?

Jesus wasn't into cash/coin that much.

Recall when Jesus was offered all the kingdoms of the world ... He wasn't interested, something about his kingdom was not of this world.

The Founding Fathers did require certain words be placed on coins in the Coinage act of 1792. On the back, "United States of America"; On the face, the year the coin was minted and the word "Liberty". "In God We Trust" didn't come about until the Civil War when a good justification was needed to kill Southern soldiers.

The original Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Baptist Minister and did not contain any reference to God. Perhaps you'll call the Baptist Minister anti-God? It did come into the pledge during the McCarthy era pushed by the Knights of Columbus. Similar rationale. If you're going to fight a war, they you have to publicize to the people that God is on your side.

The Declaration of Independence was an Act of treason. What better way to justify and act of treason by claiming God is on your side.

Look in the mirror to see who the one is that is anti-God.

BTW. Yes soldiers have noticed and they have complained.

The quote from John 8:12 may be disturbing, but so the quote from the Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Actually, this statement of Mohammed should be inscribed, not on the sights, but on the bullets fired by the rifles. If the bullets are used to kill a Muslim, then they will die by Holy Writ. If they die and go to Heaven, fine. Just as long as they die.

If it is someone else than a Muslim, then it won't matter Waht Mohammed said.

There is no place for this garbage in the military. I'm tired of the religiosity that has taken over the military. Service members are not God's army. They are there to defend our nation, people and Constitution. You want religion, go to church. I was there to do those things and as a vet, I find it disgusting.

'' it cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists,but by christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of christ'' patrick henry

Patrick Henry was an anti-Federalist. He vehemently OPPOSED our Constitution in part because he was not in step with the founding ideals of religious freedom and separation of church and state.

This company says with no hesitation that they are doing this. Their disgraceful actions threaten our foreign policy and more directly threaten the lives of our service people. Qaeda is already using the "Jesus rifles" as a recruiting tool.

And on a spiritual note - anyone who has read the Gospels knows that Jesus was a war monger who taught his disciples to go forth and kill infidels. He was big into using state power and military power as a way of promoting his teaching.

Seriously, what kind of a sicko freak equates shooting people with the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ, Son of God, the Saviour Messiah?

More about Mikey Weinstein whose education (Air Force Academy and law school) was paid for by the USA taxpayers and who now in his apparent "something to do in retirement" job as the president of the "non-profit" Military Freedom Foundation to supplement his Air Force pension:

From Wikipedia:

" He also spent over three years in the West Wing of the Reagan White House as legal counsel in the White House. In his final position there, Weinstein was named the Committee Management Officer of the much-publicized Iran-Contra Investigation in his capacity as Assistant General Counsel of The White House Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President of the United States.

Weinstein also served as the first General Counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time Presidential candidate H. Ross Perot and Perot Systems Corporation and left Mr. Perot's employ in 2006 to focus his full-time attention on the nonprofit foundation he founded in March 2006 to directly battle the evangelical, fundamentalist religious right; the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. This foundation was formed as a watchdog organization to protect religious freedom in the Military in accordance with Department of Defense Directive 1300.17, Accommodation of Religious Practices Within the Military Services."

As per the foundation's online IRS Form 990, in 2006, he claimed most of foundation's donations $256,440) as first his salary $116,330) then charging the foundations for his added services again to put his total income from the foundation at $232,660.

Hmmm?????

I think what we are missing here is the propaganda value of these "Jesus rifles."

Specifically, propaganda that will be used by our enemies, against us.

Their web videos for this will practically write themselves.

Literally having Muslims shot by rifles with Bible verses on them.

You can't buy worse publicity.

Sadly, American soldiers are the ones that will pay the price here, as this new recruiting tool will create more people that can be convinced that our actions in Muslim countries are a holy war.

So let's recap. This American company is making a profit off these rifles. And they add Bible verses to them.

And the American soldier is the one that pays the price.

Something here is very wrong.

What weapons are named for "mythical creatures and gods"? Tanks and armored vehicles traditionally receive generals' names: Stuart, Sherman, Patton, Bradley. Helicopter names are Kiowa, Apache, Chinook, and so forth. Small arms and man-portable weapons are not assigned names other than alphanumeric designations: M16A4, M249, M9.

"Then said [Jesus] unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
>
King James Bible

There is nothing incompatible between Christianity and possession/use of violent weapons. What there is, however, is an incompatibility between monotheism and peace.

EX20:13

Once more, "On Faith" becomes an anti-faith diatribe. With
Qquinn and Meacham's blessing, Waters, like Ed Schulz, hates "the ba$tard$" and would vote ten times if he could to make separation of church and state and freedom from religion a Constitutional item, which they are not.

chatard,

It has little to do with church/state or the constitution. It has everything to do with government contracting and procurement. Sights were ordered through a (hopefully) competetive contract and an additional item added to the sight, not requested by the government, which can be used by the enemy for propaganda purposes. The government should return these "defective" sights and cancel the contract. We would do no less if a F-18 were delivered with Lockheed Martin logos all over it, or worse, an image of Christ smitting an arab-looking enemy.

The government did not order this feature on its sights, so the deliverable is not in compliance. Return them as being non-compliant and cancel the contract. Happens all the time and will teach this company and others not to advertise on government property.

Your choice of the word of God in full auto, three shot burst or single shot.

As a vet with 8 years service, including combat, I find this disgusting. Over the years the military has taken on a religiosity that is inappropriate and scary. You want religion? Go to church. The military is for the defense of the nation, it's people and the Constitution. We are not any Gods army.

My driver's license has a serial number with "G11" in the string of letters and numbers. This is an obvious reference to Genesis 1:1 ("In the beginning, God...) and has no place on a state-issued document. Somebody needs to be sued.

Also, my Microsoft Windows operating system has a system file with the word "gerbil" as part of its file name; offensive to those of us who are 'hamster people.' All government computers should be stripped of Microsoft products until this is corrected. Sure, call me 'gerbillus-phobic', but these fanatics must be stopped.

Much ado about nothing. Move on.

As anyone who reads this column regularly knows, this country was founded on tolerance and acceptance and we're not going to put up with these Christians anymore!

What a non-story this is. Next you'll be taking New Testaments away from soldiers.

I just spoke about this with my son. He did two tours in Iraq with Uncle Sam's Misbegotten Children.

He'd "heard something" about this but didn't much care. The ACOG worked well for him as did the other sights he used while deployed.

He will contact his buddy, now serving in A stan, and get a further opinion.

As usual people take their righteous indignation to ridiculous levels. This just much ado about nothing. It musta been a slow news day when ABC broke this "bombshell".

Just to funny.

What's next for the undies in a bunch squad?

The gun sights should be systematically recalled and replaced free of charge to the government.

"... make separation of church and state and freedom from religion a Constitutional item, which they are not."

---------

CHATARD,

I guess you missed the Bill of Rights part of the Constitution where the very 1st amendment plainly guarantees every citizen complete freedom from government-sponsored religion.

So I can understand why Theocrats (like you) don't like that part.

FATE1 is right. Send the defective sights back and hit 'em where it hurts, in the pocketbook. Then we'll see how devoted these Chirsto-buffoons really are!

SkipSailing28,

Please thank you son for his service to our country.

"Are the rifle sights more evidence of the influence of evangelical Christians in the U.S. military? Sharlet reported that there is a 'small but powerful movement of Christian soldiers concentrated in the officers corps'".

*****************

Incredible journalism. Obviously, our nation is at great peril from these subversives. (I assume your article excludes the hundreds of Chaplains on Active Duty.) We demand to know who these officers are!!! Let's get a complete list of their names, ranks, and serial numbers. We need to "out" them (there could be thousands of them). If we can't rid the military of them, we can at least mock and deride them for spewing their Christian beliefs and bible verses in a war zone.

skipsailing28 wrote: "As usual people take their righteous indignation to ridiculous levels. This just much ado about nothing. It musta been a slow news day when ABC broke this "bombshell"."

Yes, its always much ado about nothing when the religion being proselytized is your own.

skipsailing28 wrote: "What's next for the undies in a bunch squad?

Now if it was references to the Koran put there, say, by a muslim worker in the factory, one wonders whose linen would be in a bunch. I'm sure that would be "different", right skip? As for me, its all the same when someone is forced religious references as is happening to our soldiers.

TerryElliott wrote: "What a non-story this is. Next you'll be taking New Testaments away from soldiers."

Not if they freely requested them. However if someone was strapping them to each rifle given to a soldier, then I'd have an issue, as I hope you would.

I believe that every soldier should have the right to put whatever he or she wants on any weapon or any other article of their GI issued equipment. But, all of the rest of you defending the inscription that was put on these rifles should know that it is 100% WRONG. God showed the world that Trijicon’s actions were wrong by killing Glyn Bindon in a plane crash. That is God’s immediate word on his actions and Mr. Bindon faced the ultimate punishment for those actions.

All you believers on this site should get on board and get this inscription removed now before God does something even worse.

Please prioritize these current news stories:

A. Brown wins in Mass. Senate race.
B. Haiti continues to suffer effects of earthquake.
C. Healthcare reform hotly debated.
D. Cryptic Bible verse reference in USMC gunsights.

(I can almost hear the hyperventilating from here.)

WestTexan2008 wrote: "Please prioritize these current news stories:
A. Brown wins in Mass. Senate race.
B. Haiti continues to suffer effects of earthquake.
C. Healthcare reform hotly debated.
D. Cryptic Bible verse reference in USMC gunsights.
(I can almost hear the hyperventilating from here.)"
-------------------------------

Well, this is not the front page of the Post, its the On Faith section. Actually its not even part of the Post Newspaper. If you look carefully at the URL you will see its part of Newsweek, a magazine. So it seems appropriately placed. Now the story about the Salahi's taking the 5th, which is on the front page of the Post online, well, that just doesn't belong anywhere.

WestTexan2008,

Why are you so interested in such a low-priority story?

Hey ccnl, you forgot to mention the Christian terrorists who bombed the building in Oklahoma City, the Christian terrorists who killed doctors who performed abortions. I have had it with self righteous Christians behaving as though they are better people than those who are not Christians.

How can we expect to beat the religious fundamentalists over there when we don't even have the brains to get rid of our own first.

Time to put them all on a boat and ship them to another land. It worked for England.

This crap is so infuriating. I have had enough. One can only take so much bull crap. I hate Christians with a passion. They are the most violent, hypocritical people on earth. You want to spend time with fellow Christians, go to the prisons. The prisons are filled with GOOD CHRISTIANS.

Time to put them all on a boat and ship them to another land. It worked for England.
Posted by: alex35332
-------------------------

Also worked for the Golgafrinchan. And like the English outcasts, we are the result. As God wrote in his final message, "We apologize for the inconvenience".

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Fate1,

I'm sorry, but it is almost impossible for me to take this story seriously - it is the internet version of Theater of the Absurd. That it even has a reference on th front page (along side the Haiti, Brown and Healthcare stories) lends itself to satire -- Cryptic Bible references in gunsight serial numbers - yet another failure of the Intel community.

"I hate Christians with a passion. They are the most violent, hypocritical people on earth. "

I don't subscribe to any religion, and your hatred is not only repugnant but also misses the point. This issue has nothing to do with the merits or faults of Christians or their religion. The central question would be no different if the coded scriptural messages were from the Vedas or the Tripitaka or the Koran or the Svetambara or any other of the numerous scriptures from other religions.

Maybe we should put the number of civilians killed by our bombs:

Millions and millions served

WestTexan2008 wrote: "I'm sorry, but it is almost impossible for me to take this story seriously - it is the internet version of Theater of the Absurd."

I would agree if it was an issue only about this company, which hid the references in serial numbers, but it brings to light the larger picture of the evangelical movement's push to proselytize to our men and women in uniform, in some cases from superiors, with those who do not respond positively left to understand they were not being part of the "team".

There are many examples of this. I don't think its coordinated but when someone cannot respect another's religion, or their preference not to be proselytized, well, its not something we as Americans should stand for. Religion should be free and a private decision for each person, not a job requirement or stamped on your equipment. This is just one more example of religion being forced down our soldiers throats, soldiers that have little ability to resist or complain. That is the larger story.

WestTexan2008 wrote: "That it even has a reference on th front page (along side the Haiti, Brown and Healthcare stories) lends itself to satire."

Yes, but those links under "Discussion" are rotated and certainly take up less space than other more important news stories.

"I'm sorry, but it is almost impossible for me to take this story seriously -"

-------

WestTexan2008,

If you don't take this story seriously, then why do you keep commenting on it?

Would you take it more seriously if Koran verses were etched on gov't property without permission?

Freestinker,

I'm not. I'm more interested in the amount of hyperventilating over this low priority story. Reading these blogs is almost a study in Sociology.

Actually, I ran across this story and wanted to understand the headline. I saw a few responses from folks and then checked back in a few times - usually with a snide remark.

If I have offended you, please accept my apology. Because I don't take this story seriously, doesn't mean that somebody else might not; but in all candor, I struggle to see what has people riled up to the point of writing veritable tomes.

passage is quoted in Saving Pvt Ryan, if memory serves me...
hey, its like dont ask, dont tell; best we can do!

You are right Carstonio. I have the same feeling about all religions that proselytize and coerce. Religion is the biggest hoax ever played on mankind. "Give me money and you will go to the Promised Land when you die." Frankly I am pleased you find my comments repugnant. They were meant to generate that kind of reaction. Ain't nothing any zealot can do about it legally as this is the US and I am allowed to feel utter disgust for you folks. Christians, Muslims and others do not subscribe to the idea of "Live and let Live". See Pat Robertson, well known zealot and staunch member of the Republican party who is to a large extent behind this attempt to cram Christianity down our throats. I served in the US Navy during Viet Nam and this behavior did not exist in the military then.

Freestinker,

In my 26 years in the Marine Corps and Navy I never once noticed Bible verses on the gunsight serial number. Please feel free to include verses from the Quran, the Vidas, the owners manual for the 1971 Chevy Nova, the lyrics for your favorite AC/DC song and anything else that can be used in a serial number. Now, if they had included something from the Kama Sutra, most Marines would notice.

LOL WESTTEXAN2008. That must be why I have such a natural affinity for Marines.

WestTexan2008,

No offense taken. I suppose the value of a news story depends on the reader. If you won the lottery, it would be big news to you but not to me or many others.

I think what riles people up is government-sponsored proselytizing. That's an obvious no-no to anyone who values our Constitutionally-protected religious liberty.

If you don't value religious liberty, then you probably don't care much either way but it still doesn't make it right.

Do you have an opinion on the merits of this story, even though it's a rather small story?

Do you think it's right for our government to advocate the Christian faith on military equipment?

Just curious?

Beyond the government-neutrality issues involved, what exactly was the point of the coded New Testament references? To bless the guns and bullets so that any enemy combatants would be killed in the name of Jesus?

yeah, just too funny.

West texan, I certainly will thank him. I thank him every time I talk to him!
Fate1 and other undies in a wad squad members:

you guys see boogie men everywhere. Proseltyzing? Seriously? Really? don't you think that if the maker of this sight wanted to proselytize they'd do so in a way that, you know, got more attention from the guys actually using it?

that's why I included my son's comments. He relied on the ACOG to save his life in combat and all he'd heard was a rumor. He never bothered to look at the serial number himself, I guess he was just too busy trying to stay alive and complete the mission.

I stand by my original analysis, this is just much ado about nothing from the guys who think that a nativity scene on the town square is promoting religion.

My goodness what's it like to live a life when you are perpetually Po'd at something so utterly insignificant?

Freestinker,

I very much value religious liberty - for all - including the manufacturer of the gunsight, as well as my troops. That's why they put Chaplains of various flavors in the units (and why they switch out those Chaplains from time to time - so the troops get input from different faith groups or no Chaplain at all).

I don't think the government was advocating any faith, Christian or otherwise, on the equipment. Rather, the government bought equipment that met the specifications ordered. That the equipment was manufactured by somebody who used a serial number system that reflected their faith is more to the issue - which is, is this serial number system important enough to cancel the contract and potentially pay huge penalties to the manufacturer? Yes, that's correct. Because unless the contract specifically stated a serial numbering system or specifically prohibited cryptic Bible verses, the manufacturer has met his/her obligation to the Marine Corps.

As I stated before, I don't care what they use as a serial numbering system as long as the sight works well - as it appears to.

That is why this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. Which then begs the question; are you willing to pay more money for, delay, and/or give inferior equipment to our Marines over this issue?

This is hardly a tempest in a teapot. I know the military having served and I know how officers and non-coms can make your life miserable over any issue especially religion.

"Frankly I am pleased you find my comments repugnant. They were meant to generate that kind of reaction. Ain't nothing any zealot can do about it legally as this is the US and I am allowed to feel utter disgust for you folks."

Why would you feel disgust for someone who doesn't belong to any religion and doesn't seek to convert anyone to any religion? I found your comments repugnant because they were essentially saying that all religious people are deserving of hate. How is that any different from Pat Robertson's hateful rant about Haiti? Or the even more hateful belief by some Christians that Jews are doomed to hell from birth?

Commentary Posted by: Carstonio | January 20, 2010 4:49 PM

and another commentary:

Posted by: Schaum | January 20, 2010 4:47 PM on Susan Jacoby's column.

Hmmm, coincidence or has Farnaz's "friends" joined together in their daily violations of the Torah??

Keep in mind that this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

Chopin224,

I'm not saying that religion in the military is a TIAT, rather that the gunsight/Bible verse is. Religious freedom is very important.

All in all, I suspect that the Marine Corps Rifle Gunsight Serial Number Evangelization Project (MCRGSNEP for short) will have less overall impact than the guy holding the "John 3:16" sign in behind the goal posts at any pro football game.

Apparently, "chopin224" missed the synopsis of our War on Terror and Aggression:

Once again:

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,478 killed in action, 899
non-comabat, 95,021 – 103,673, Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 675, 198 killed in non-combat situations as of 01/15/2010. The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) reported that 2,118 Afghan civilians were killed by armed conflict in 2008, the highest number since the end of the initial 2001 invasion. This represented an increase of about 40% over UNAMA's figure of 1,523 Afghan civilians killed in 2007.

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

Continued below:

Continued below:

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

- Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

- Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

- Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

- North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

- North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

- Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

- The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

- Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

- Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan.

- Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

- Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

- Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

- Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

- The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

- And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

"is this serial number system important enough to cancel the contract and potentially pay huge penalties to the manufacturer? Yes, that's correct. Because unless the contract specifically stated a serial numbering system or specifically prohibited cryptic Bible verses, the manufacturer has met his/her obligation to the Marine Corps."

Valid question. My concern there is the possible agenda of the contractor. Coding the scriptural reference seems deceptive. And I can understand if a Jewish or Muslim service member might believe that using the gun would violate his own religious beliefs.

"this is just much ado about nothing from the guys who think that a nativity scene on the town square is promoting religion."

No, the issue there is the government promoting a specific religion at the expense of other religions. "Promoting religion" implies that Christianity is the only valid religion. The government is effectively telling all religious groups that only Christians are entitled to put up displays in the town square. Ideally, the town square would be open to all religious groups who would seek to put up their own holiday displays. That would conform to the First Amendment. Make it an open invitation, and if some religious groups in the community don't respond, that's not the government's problem.

Commentary Posted by: Carstonio | January 20, 2010 4:49 PM and 5:19 PM

and another commentary:

Posted by: Schaum | January 20, 2010 4:47 PM and 5:05 PM on Susan Jacoby's column

Hmmm, coincidence or has Farnaz's "friends" joined together in their daily violations of the Torah??

Keep in mind that this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

Killing in the name of religion, where's the news?

fr slenon:

>I find the manufacturer's action to be highly objectionable. ...

Any DECENT person would. It's on the same level as the horrific bumper sticker I saw once: "I support our CHRISTIAN troops." Why not Jewish, Muslim, Shintoist, Taoist, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic?

High Priest: Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
Bro. Maynard: And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits." And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean...
High Priest: Skip a bit, brother.
Bro. Maynard: And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. *Three* shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. *Four* shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, excepting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. Amen.
All: Amen.-- Monty Python, "The Holy Hand Grenade"

So CCNL is back with his "two wrongs make a right" argument. Muslims kill innocents, therefore Christians can kill innocents.

Holy Einstein, Batman!

Garak wrote "Muslims kill innocents, therefore Christians can kill innocents."

These kind of idiocy gives fuel to insurgency. These American soldiers are serving our country well and some idiots call them criminals?

Only criminals are afraid of law enforcers.

It's clear that the enemies of America are those who want the bible out in their lives.

Doomsday is coming and guess what? The world will be holier and the bad, not the Bible, will go as well.

It's a futile act to war against the word of God. It's not going anywhere but it's enemies will.

If America don't want to be destroyed, respect the word or you too guys will be annihilated.

Based on the posts here, a lot in America especially the leftist evolutionist will be wiped out by ungodly nuke weapons. That is the prophecy.

During the first phase of WW3, America will be defeated. I guess that means a lot of soldiers will be killed.

Wake up America!!

What? Christianity is being used in support of violence? I'm sure Bible-thumpin', gay-bashing, snake-strokin' Christians of all stripes are as deeply shocked as I am.

With Jesus as your copilot, I guess you can crash your plane into Mecca if you can. Ain't religion great! Do what you want as long as you have a god, or his (note gender) son, prophet, etc giving you the thumbs up through a bible or other multi authored text of instructions.

Dear Taliban: we are different than you. See??????

Garak, Garak, Garak,

Two wrongs make a right?? And somehow we are wrong to defend ourselves from the terror and horror religion of the 21st century aka Islam??

Garak, Garak, Garak,

Two wrongs make a right?? And somehow we are wrong to defend ourselves from the terror and horror religion of the 21st century aka Islam??

##########################################

The only horror lies in your sheer ignorance and religious xenophobia.

"It's on the same level as the horrific bumper sticker I saw once: 'I support our CHRISTIAN troops.'"

Yes, that's very horrific, and it would be so no matter what religion was specified. That's like saying that the soldiers from the "wrong" religion don't deserve medals or promotions. Or worse, that they should be singled out for suicide missions.

Okay, so after 16 years in the Army I guess I can feel free to bring up a couple points.

1. Yes there are lots of evangelical Christians in the Army, I'm not one of them but I guess if people don't like it they should join up - it's a volunteer force.
2. Some of you seem to think that the Army specifically asked Trijicon to add these "cryptic" bible references. Sorry, I know the Army's acquisition process and that idea is simply absurd.
3 . Trijicon's ACOG simply works - I used it all the time in Iraq and never once noticed the biblical serial number. No one I know ever mentioned it. If there were better optics out there I'm sure the military would use those even if it didn't have a religious serial number.
4. Somehow you are ascribing to the Government the intent of the contractor. This would be a constitutional violation if the Government asked for this but a contractor can certainly create a serial numbering system any way it wants to without running afoul of the First Amendment.

5. I have to agree with WestTexan2008 that this is just a ridiculous, overblown story. Again I'm not an evangelical christian but this is not some government/military conspiracy.

@Leeh "The quote from John 8:12 may be disturbing, but so the quote from the Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."

Heh-heh -- glad someone else noticed this, since "8:12" is a standard format used in citing Quranic verses. Each sura in the Quran has a traditional Arabic name, but it's common practice to use only the sura's number followed by the verse number -- so 114:6 would be the 6th verse of the 114th sura (which happens to be the very last verse of the Quran).

It should be admitted that 8:12, as violent as it may sound, can theoretically be defended as referring only to a specific era (such as within the lifetime of Muhammad) -- though of course some Muslim jihadis interpret it as being perpetually in effect.

On the other hand, I'd argue that 4:157, and several of the Quranic verses coming immediately before it, are actually much worse than 8:12 because they assign a **permanent racial guilt** to the Jews, and cannot explained away as referring only to particular Jews in the early history of Islam.

By the way, another serial number reportedly used by Trijicon ends in 2COR4:6 -- and again, if you ignore the "2COR" part and consider only the number, then "4:6" can be taken as a Quranic citation meaning "fourth sura, verse six."

But as it happens, Quran 4:6 is neither a call to violence against infidels like Quran 8:12, nor an inspirational verse for believers like 2Cor 4:6 -- it's a practical law of the type found in Leviticus, and simply deals with the ethical handling of money/property held in trust for an underage orphan! (It basically says that a rich trustee may not spend a single penny of the orphan's inheritance, but a poor man is allowed to draw on the money sparingly for basic necessities.)

So if the "bad guys" have scripture on their gunsights, and the bullets meet in midair, which bullet wins?

Emagnell,

Agree with your post entirely. The ACOG is the best military sight system available (with or without the Pope's blessing).

And thanks for serving our country.

David Waters writes: "it would seem to violate U.S. military rules against proselytizing"

Um, if "ACOG4X32JN8:12" in 2mm-high black-on-black embossed letters can be said to amount to sectarian Christian proselytizing, then the Declaration of Independence -- which spells out the word "Creator" in full -- must be a freakin' Chick Tract by comparison! (Not to mention every piece of U.S. currency in circulation.)

Also, so far as I can tell from Trijicon's website, the company's name derives from the use of the hydrogen radioisotope "tritium" as a beta-emitter in its sights.

But SUPPOSE for the sake of argument that "Trijicon" were actually derived from the phrase "TRust In Jesus Christ", or something like that, because the founder of the company was one of those kooky born-again Bible-thumpers. Would it therefore be inappropriate for the Pentagon to procure gun sights from Trijicon, on the grounds that the company's very name constituted "proselytizing"?

@Alex511: "Any DECENT person would. It's on the same level as the horrific bumper sticker I saw once: "I support our CHRISTIAN troops." Why not Jewish, Muslim, Shintoist, Taoist, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic?"

Alex511, W.T.F. is wrong with YOU that you are "horrified" by this bumper sticker, when one could quite reasonably interpret it as signifying "I support all our troops with my prayers, but I also support the Christian troops in a particular way by being penpals with some of them and having long back-and-forth discussions about C.S. Lewis and Stryper* lyrics and whatnot"??

Are you one of those excitable little scolds who thinks that "God Bless America" must necessarily imply "May God Withhold His Blessings From All Other Nations"?

*(I'm a non-Christian agnostic and admitting my relative ignorance of Christian pop culture here... it was "Stryper" when I was in high school in the late '80s!)

Back when the campus crusaders were attacking us on the beach during spring break, asking if we'd been saved, I thought they were harmless enough. Kind of like the jellyfish, you could avoid them.

But after 8 years of W, our born-again evangelical president, these people have obviously infected every part of our government.

Now they have our soldiers "shooting" religion at people. Jesus would be so proud. not.

They are a bunch of phoneys, and everyone knows it.

Jesus would be appalled.

Let's kill in the name of Jesus.

You Republican conservatives are a disgusting lot....absolutely disgusting.

"Somehow you are ascribing to the Government the intent of the contractor. This would be a constitutional violation if the Government asked for this but a contractor can certainly create a serial numbering system any way it wants to without running afoul of the First Amendment."

I understand that governments are accountable to some degree for the actions of the contractors they hire, such as compliance with anti-discrimination measures. But there are probably people on this thread who are more knowledgeable than me about government contracting.

"I have to agree with WestTexan2008 that this is just a ridiculous, overblown story. Again I'm not an evangelical christian but this is not some government/military conspiracy."

Valid point. I wouldn't rank this on the same level as, say, harassment of Jewish cadets at Colorado Springs. It's possible that this contractor was hired by some DoD equivalent of Monica Goodling or Kay Coles James, a bureaucrat who saw himself or herself as having a holy mission in government. But it may be more likely that this was a case where the government was blindsided by the contractor.

Whatever the government's role, the contractor's action raises questions about whether the company regards the promotion of certain religious beliefs as part of its mission.

Maggots, Maggots, Maggots,

Might we suggest the Five Step Method for Deprogramming and "Deflawing" Islam:

Are you ready?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways of horror and terror!!

Analogous Five Step Methods for Deprogramming and Deflawing any other religion are available at no charge!!!

Please note that Farnaz's "friends" (e.g. Schaum and Carstonio) continue to post commentaries. Farnaz complains on Susan Jacoby's column that she and her "friends" are being mistreated and misrepresented but note she never denies violating the Torah's Ninth Commandment even though she could simply say that she is a professed Jewish atheist and she is not bound by such rules and she can have as many "friends" as she wants (even though this also violates blog rules).

What will the religious right think of next?? How about telling the Haitians they are cursed by the devil? Oh wait - that was last week. Unbelievable the lengths they will go to to spread their message. This really pisses me off.

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Beautiful words but not so beautiful for those who have to walk in darkness and end up in hell.

Scary stuff for unbelievers. And the bad news is that, 100 percent, that message is true.

No soil can create a brain except there is a SUPER INTELLLIGENT BEING behind it.

100 percent, unbelievers will fry.

Under government contracting rules, Trijicom should be forced to pay the U.S. Government for the removal of all those biblical verse references. They are not there to meet weapons specs, but to allow the company to prosthelitize its religious beliefs. Taxpayer dollars should never be used to promote one religion. Saying this is tantamount to our currency saying "in God we trust" is absurd. The bible (new testament) is a Christian document ONLY. God is not unique to one religion.

gasmonkey wrote: "Under government contracting rules, Trijicom should be forced to pay the U.S. Government for the removal of all those biblical verse references. They are not there to meet weapons specs, but to allow the company to prosthelitize its religious beliefs. Taxpayer dollars should never be used to promote one religion."

Exactly right.

gasmonkey wrote: "Saying this is tantamount to our currency saying "in God we trust" is absurd. The bible (new testament) is a Christian document ONLY. God is not unique to one religion."

Plus, "in God we trust" is our "national motto" thatnks to the fear generated during the 50s by the Soviet communists and the use of that fear to push christianity into government. However the motto has a longer history, also religious, but historic never the less, and so it has passed court challenges. It is allowed on money ONLY because it is the national motto. There is no reason the government should be paying for biblical scritpture on military weapons and may in fact violate law, which is why I believe the Pentagon is reviewing the purchase.

In the end I think the Pentagon will order all the inscriptions scratched out, allowing the religious right to raise yet again another hellebellu about government suppressing religion in America and the war on Christians. But Christians should be thankful the government will protect the Constitution and thus THEIR right to practice THEIR religion freely.

"Saying this is tantamount to our currency saying 'in God we trust' is absurd. The bible (new testament) is a Christian document ONLY. God is not unique to one religion."

But "God" is still unique only to some religions and not others, so the First Amendment issue is the same. It's an inherently sectarian word that excludes polytheistic religions like Hinduism, animism, Shintoism and the various Native American religions. The phrase shouldn't be our national motto because it falsely implies that one has to be a monotheist to be a patriotic American. And as a practical matter, most Americans hear "God" as referring to exclusively the Christian god, so they are likely to believe that the government has granted Christianity a special status. Government should take no position on whether gods exist and how many gods exist.

I have to agree with Carstonio here.

Government cannot promote or endorse religion of any kind.

Carving out any exceptions like "In God We Trust" weakens both religion and government and in this case the slogan is just plain false.

We get your same C&P on every thread. You've ridden that one trick pony to death. And, once again I remind you that the Islamic world are pikers compared to the millions we have slaughtered to maintain our empire.

600,000 dead civilian Iraqis.
2,000,000 exiled Iraqis.
300,000 dead Iranians by our boy the Shah
1,000,000 dead indiginous humans by our puppet gov'ts in south America.

"More than the biblical inscription, the Muslim world is more worried about the sanity of America as it legalizes marijuana in DC and other states."

How do you know this, Spidey? Been hanging out at jihadist websites these days? Why not? You spout the same ignorant nonsense as these guys do, only you say "God" instead of "Allah".

ccnl1 wrote:

Please note that Farnaz's "friends" (e.g. Schaum and Carstonio) continue to post commentaries.

_____________________________________

Are you saying they should be banned and deprived their First Amendment Rights?

Or are you saying, ccnl1, those who you work so hard to get banned can't legitimately figure out how to register under another name? Why is your anonymity more proper than theirs?

What's interesting about the comments left by the usual suspects who post here regularly (e.g. spidermean, ccnl1,etc.)is the notion that infusing the US military with religion is okay because the jihadists do too. The suggestion that a theocracy is needed/exists in the US because that nation is fighting those who wish to impose theocracies elsewhere in the world is about as stupid as it gets.

As for whether the notion of waging warfare on behalf of Christ is Christian, I would suggest anyone gleaning this conclusion from the Bible was likely a child left behind by the US education system. Ignorance is bliss.

It's a common mistranslation. Jesus is actually the King of Piece.

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And "Jesus" is the King of Peace, I guess if your "peace" is that of the grave?