Latin Mass controversy draws huge crowd

I think the headline says more about the writer's agenda that the actual event.

Believe it or not, the EVENT ITSELF drew massive crowds, not the controversy. Regardless of the controversy, the Basilica would have been packed, as Tridentine Masses almost always are.

Tridentine Masses have been celebrated in the Basilica before in the last few years, although in the Crypt Church rather than the Upper Church.

So you interviewed the people who attended and they told you they came because of the controversy? Or is your headline misleading?

It is worth mentioning that the Church was adamently against translating the Bible from Latin and against printing when it was first invented in Europe. This was because handmade, Latin Bibles were beyond the means and understanding of the general populace.

The Church wanted to keep its monopoly on the Bible and its teachings, so that the only way people could experience the word of the Christian God was through the Church and its agents. I'm sure they Church would love to return to those times.

bpai_99 thinks the church wanted to keep its monopoly on the Bible so people would have to experience the Word of God through the Church. I think it fair to point out that one can do a lot of strange things to the meaning of a book when it is translated, and not checking the translation can lead to extreme changes in what the final product says. As the Italians say, tradditore, traddutore.

I would respectfully point out a number of things. I think that bpai_99 is historically accurate when he/she said that the church wanted to keep its monopoly on the meaning of the Bible, and I think that POTABOC is correct that certain liberties are sometimes taken in translation--the Latin Bible's own translation of the Old Testament contains some controversial points. HOWEVER, having said all that, it should be noted that all this took place some 500 years ago, and the Church today is a very different creature from the Church of the 30 Years War and the Inquisition.

I wish the reporter had told us how many of the 3500 were under the age of 30. My grown children haven't been clamoring for the Latin mass. Have yours? Instead, our young ask for a faith community that is transparent in its organization, one that reflects their day-to-day trials and joys. But most of all, my young Catholic friends hope for sacraments celebrated in a way that allows them to approach -- through gesture, symbol, fragrance, song, and basic elements of bread, wine, water, and fire -- the Awesome Mystery. Can the Tridentine do that? Perhaps. For some. But we should be worrying less about which direction the priest is facing. Instead we in the pews need to turn around and see how many heads are behind us that are not old and grey. And this is not a call to the hootenanny excesses of the past. Tradition is good and helpful, but it must be in the context of a vital and vibrant Church, one that does not allow its leaders to separate themselves from the Church in the pews. As indeed they have.

I think its fair to point out that the writer didn't write the headline. Another person wrote the headline to draw readers into the story.

This chit reminds me of a horse
show. That's where you have a
bunch of horses showing their butts
to a bunch of horses butts showing
their horses !!

The interesting question (that goes unanswered) is the age of the crowd. 3500 young people showing up for a Latin mass is a revival. 3500 60-somethings is a reunion of aging altar boys nostalgic about a passing moment.
I happened to love the rhythm of the Latin mass but wouldn't go around the corner to gather for its return. The majority of the congregations stood there reciting by rote facing the back of a priest who represented the hierarchy at its most arrogant. Nostalgia dfor those days seems to me misplaced.

why not the tridentine rite? i mean, its not like anybody knows what the hell is being said whether it be in latin, english, or sanskrit. to quote an eminent historian describing the beliefs of a true hero of the reformation, "he understood that not one person in a hundred knows truly what he believes or why he believes it."

The first few times I attended a Latin mass (I'm just under 30) I enjoyed it thoroughly. The parish I lived in at the time did it once a month. After a while though I became less enamored with the singing the Gloria and other response portions in Latin, which was beginning to seep into every mass. Yes, I remembered the sounds, but I was slowly forgetting what I was actually saying. Add into that moving to a parish that only believes in "ancient" hymns and I just felt unmoored at mass. It wasn't familiar to me, someone born post-Vatican II.

It's funny but I now drive to what's considered a "liberal" parish because it feels more like what I grew up with (I'm not from the area). Latin and old hymns aren't a return to anything for me. I don't know what's going on and I want to sing the hymns I sang at my first communion and confirmation. I love it when things are added, like incense and the bells, but having a mass in Latin is taking something away from me - understanding.

Personally I am an atheist, but have attened various services with friends while out visiting or sometimes with them because i am curious how the different denomonations do things. I have ben to a Latin Mass and it is quite a ceremony to watch. I can see how some people may get swept up in the whole pop and circumstance in comparrison to the regular mass.

As a nascent Catholic, I would have to say...uh oh, I just realized there are photos of ducklings on the WAPO front page. Sorry, gotta go.

The church has always had two directions it has wanted to go - toward the past and toward the future. It doesn't seem to have been able to put the two together. The RC church, in the past, like the Orthodox churches, has tended to see worship as a "spectator sport," something that the laity are not all that involved in, except as observers of a worship that is supposed to reflect another "heavenly" worship around the throne of God. This is an "exalted" worship, spoken in an unknown tongue, the language of heaven, which results in a sense of wonder and awe.

The other direction is the direction that Luther and Vatican II took - that of more lay-centered worship in the "liturgy," "the work of the people." Here, worship reflects the lives and concerns of God's people, and the center is communion and the Lord's Prayer, the call to live out God's future among us. Here, the liturgy must be in the language of the people, since it is the offering of their work and themselves to God.

Perhaps, at times, we can do both - althernating between the sense of awe and wonder, and the realization that God calls us into his/her own work. It's a shame that we cannot, somehow, find a way to do both of these things at the same time.

My experience is practically identical to EM15's. (I'm 34.) Despite 16 years of Catholic education (yup, university too), I felt like a fish out of water at the uber-traditionalist parish near my new home. It was worth the extra drive to me to find a parish that allows me to participate in its music liturgy and actively contribute. After playing my guitar for Masses since the 8th grade, it was a slap in the face to be told by the other parish that this was inappropriate. I'm also very happy that my new parish home has greater opportunities for women to participate, beyond mothers' groups that only meet during the work day.

I think it's marvelous to have opportunities to experience the Mass in all its musical/linguistic forms. Much can be learned and enjoyed from both. However I disagree with any attempt to label "traditional" as superior to the forms of worship experienced by younger generations growing up. The Church risks alienating the younger members who do still remain.

I have the opposite experience of several of the posters here.

After having grown up in a parish with music that included instruments, a drum kit, guitars, and so forth (and having participated in that "choir" to my current shame), I gravitated toward the Latin Mass specifically and more traditional parishes in general for restoring some calm dignity to services.

If I want a spectacle, I can go to the movies. If I want modern music, I can go to a concert. If I want to encounter God, simplistic, sappy messages set to the strum of guitars just leaves me cold.

But, to each his or her own--that's why we have different parishes.

It was a beautiful liturgy, and Bishop Slattery's homily was amazing. The text of which can be found at the Diocese of Tulsa website here, http://www.dioceseoftulsa.org/article.asp?nID=1451

As the Holy Father and John Paul II before him said many times, there are two forms of the one Roman Rite, the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms.

The Vatican II document Sancrosanctum Concilium states clearly that Church holds all lawfully recongnized rites to be of equal legal force and dignity; that it wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. "The Liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed"; it is also the source from which all its power flows"

The Extradordinary Form never stopped being a valid and equal form of the Liturgy of the Church. It is "an exercise of the priestly office of Jesus Christ...from this it follows that every liturgical celebration, because it is an action of Christ the priest and of his sacred body, which is the church, is a preeminently sacred action. No other action of the church equals its effectiveness by the same title nor to the same degree." (Sancrosanctum Concilium)

Thank you to everyone who helped to organize and who attended and worshipped as members of the body of Christ in this beautiful and sacred liturgy.

And just as there were many young people in attendance for the March for Life in January, there were many young people, and many young families in attendance at this liturgy.

I live in a center downtown area of a major university town, where there are a range of styles of Catholic worship, including the Tridentine Mass, and also the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II Mass) celebrated in Latin or in English with real dignity and solemnity and reverence, incense, bells, gorgeous vestments, traditional details like chalice veil and burse, and excellent, traditional a cappella choral singing, like our special 9pm Wednesday candlelight Mass which is extremely popular with the college students--when our Bishop was guest celebrant of that Mass, he commented that it is, as near as he can figure, the way the Novus Ordo is supposed to be. Also of course there are more "contemporary" Masses including one with pop "praise and worship" type hymns, for those who prefer that kind of thing.

So, do the young people all go to the pop music Mass and the old folks go to the Tridentine Mass? No, not necessarily, there is a good bit of interest from young people in solemn, beautiful and distinctively Catholic liturgy, particularly through the influence of our very good and popular junior pastor.

I have been to a couple of Pontifical High Masses and they are lengthy and extremely elaborate, and quite mysterious if you're not familiar with the Tridentine Mass--you don't necessarily always know what's going on. It's very helpful to have a little knowledge of this form of the Mass, and it's customary to follow along in a Latin/English missal. Rather than being social and dialogical, the spirituality of participating in the Tridentine Mass is contemplative. Many feel that this form of the Mass is more conducive to awe, reverence and mystery. Catholics who have no formation and experience in how to pray might be at a loss as to what to "do" at such a Mass. There are just a few vocal responses from the people, ie "Dominus vobiscum"/"Et cum spiritu tuo", "Verbum Domini"/"Deo gratias", the last line of the Our Father, "sed libera nos a malo". For Protestants, a worship service is centered on the community and often consists of a lot of hymn singing, some scripture reading and a sermon. Catholic worship is really different, the community centered profoundly on God.

"The controversy was a heartbreak for lovers of the traditional liturgy"

The controversy was a also a heartbreak for lovers of the traditional child molestation, Bishops who hid them and for lame Catholics who looked the other way and now cry "others did it to" as if "others" were "Brothers of Christ" protected by an organized international gang of criminals bent on obstruction of justice.

No mention, however, of the "heartbreak" felt by young victims who initially trusted their clergy.

The true priorities of "Christ's Church" once again revealed.

RJA1, to answer your question, there were a fair number of "young" people at this Mass.

I am 32, and usually attend my local parish, which does not offer Mass in the extraordinary form (i.e., the so-called "Tridentine" Mass). While I like my parish and appreciate the effort that the priests there make to celebrate the post-Vatican II Mass with solemnity and dignity, I truly enjoy participating in this traditional form of the liturgy and regularly attend it when I have the opportunity.

At the traditional Latin Masses that I have attended (in a variety of different locations across the country), most of the congregation is under 40 -- and often times closer to 30. Contrary to the pre-conceived notion that many people have, those that are attending these types of liturgical events are not retirees nursing nostalgia for the "good old days" before the Second Vatican Council.

BPAI-99 is wrong on several points. The first book printed in Europe was the Bible in Latin. Before that parts or all of the New Testament had been translated into the vernacular in several countries. Before the Reformation most educated people in Europe could read Latin. "The Bible was chained" (a popular phrase among the uninformed) in medieval churches to prevent its theft. I admit that in some places at some times the reading of the Bible was discouraged (maybe forbidden) to prevent the spread of erroneous interpretations. Remeber that Luther's Sola Scriptura has led to thousands of Protestant denominations.

I was an altar boy during my grammar school years (1960's), and remember having to memorize all the Latin prayers and responses. When Vatican II was ratified, each diocese was encourage to offer masses in the native language of their country, and turn the altar to face the congregation. (We could even stand in line to receive Communion in our hands!) Learning all the mass prayers in English was no big deal.

To me, a Mass said in a native language with the congregation having full participation in the liturgy, is a much greater form of worship. The Latin mass is fine, if trotted out once or twice a year, to remind us of the old days.

The liturgy and sacraments in the Mass are most important, not the language, or finery of the vestments and other accouterments.

The most moving of Masses are those said by military chaplains in simple garb, with a pine board altar laid across a couple of sawhorses, standing in front of dozens soldiers or sailors before they go to battle, or to honor their fallen comrades.

The least important masses are 2 hour Tridentine Masses held in a basilica.

Occasionally returning to the past with Latin mass liturgy has the symbolic effect of restoring sacramental traditions: matrimony, eucharist and penance. The Tridentine evokes solemnity, reverence and contemplation and requires time to understand the manner of prayer. As far as ancient hymn and prayer, the Gregorian chant is also very spiritually moving.

Mindless Sheep.

This story says so much about us americans. We have not matured to be above the need of a afterlife reward. We cannot live without that "magic" of the old fashioned Mass, with the music, the pagentry and a shepherd to lead us. We get bored very easy, we need new entertainment with some magic in it. Freethinking is so boring.

There is a fair range of opinion concerning the event at the National Shrine last Saturday, most of it from people who were not there. I was there, and I can share with you my own experience from a vantage point very much on the inside: http://bit.ly/cuXNFo

whats great about this event is that we are sure (or are we?) no young girls and boys are being raped while the priest and bishops and cardinals are in this dc church!

Hey, willemkraal, so you think you know so much, do ya?

My son was attacked in a locker room when he was a freshman in high school by his football coach. I didn't learn of the full extent of it until he graduated. The statute of limitations ran out three years later, but not before we failed to find an attorney who would take the case, as it meant going up against the public school system, which means going up against the state.

Apparently, the REAL money is in going after Catholic institutions, where according to statistics from the US Departments of Education and Justice, such instances are far less common.

See, that's how you make a case without being a smart-aleck.

I think it is all silly,why bother going to a mass if it is preached in a language that few understand.Do they really believe they are closer to god to attend this mass, to me its called catholic brainwashing.Then again the catholic church has deviated from scriptures over the centuries to be little more than a money going concern with more interest in art works than spiritual works.

"why bother going to a mass if it is preached in a language that few understand."

Read what I wrote, and find out why.

Ms. Boorstein, may I ask what is your religion, whether you practice it (and no, having a spiritual moment on the way to the local CVS does not count) and what are its scandals and then have a public discussion of it? I am sick and tired of having my faith and my Church constantly scrutinized and insulted on a daily basis by the media.

The people here saying that this was filled with old people are tragically wrong. The "old people" in today's Church are Baby Boomers clinging for dear life onto their 1960s and 1970s bad liturgy.

This Mass, along with every Traditional Latin Mass I have ever attended, was filled with 20- and 30-somethings. Also lots of babies.

The liturgical liberals in the Church are old and dying off. The vanguard of liturgical renewal and implementation of the Second Vatican Council is to be found in the young. We want our Catholic tradition back, and we're starting to get it.

The old folks can have their 4PM Saturday evening Masses with Eucharistic Prayer IV, hand-holding during the Our Father, and "Gift of Finest Wheat" at Communion.

The young of the Church have spoken. This Shrine Mass proves it.

" I am sick and tired of having my faith and my Church constantly scrutinized and insulted on a daily basis by the media."

OFCOURSE U ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THIS BUT EACH AND EVERY DAY WE LEARN OF SOME OTHER PRIEST/CARDINAL/POPE/BISHOP FOUND SUSPECTED OF SEX CRIMES SO U BETTER TAKE SOME ASPIRIN , LAY DOWN FOR A WHILE AND RELAX AND SAY 10 HAIL MARYS!! ALSO U COULD WRITE THE POPI AND INSIST THAT SHE GETS OUT OF THOSE STRANGE DRAG OUTFITS SHE WEARS , THOSE AWFULL DRESSES AND MITER ITS ALL JUST TOO WEIRD TOO BELIEVE!

The only person here who may need to take aspirin is someone who has to "shout" as much as you have to make a point. Please also refer to my last remark in the comment at 8:53 PM on the 27th.