Separation of president and creator

Our Founding Fathers were not aware of the Big Bang nor of Biological Evolution. They were not aware that The Book of Genesis should not be taken literally. President Obama knows all these scientifically proven facts.

We know that the story in Genesis is not historically or scientifically accurate. Why would anyone care if President Obama left out a bit of meaningless rhetoric?

Obama may have been a member of Jeremiah Wright's church for two decades but surely he attended rarely, given his lack of knowledge about Wright's violent theology. I suspect that Obama, like many mainline Protestants does not believe much if anything about Christianity. In any case he is a false Messiah.

I prefer a president that doesn't go out of his way to mention an imaginary being.

Maybe President Obama is considering people like myself, an American born Buddhist that does not identify with the term "Creator" which was added to our money later along with the rest of the GOD-Speak added to our freedoms, which if you study American history you will find America was founded on the absence of the Church of England for a puropose, and now good intending American's want to add the English Church back into our agenda.

We left England for freedom of religious presecution, and American's are persecuting each other now over Christianity. History is not repeating itself it is going backwards hundreds of years at a step.

I hope our President stops with the "Creator" name, but he still says, "GOD bless America" which this author left out of his gripe of religious freedoms, and our Presidents lack of religopus convictions.

Interesting to leave that piece out do you not think. I do not think this is a balanced article, but biased against non-christians, like me, An American Buddhist, born and raised Amercian, but not practicing Christianity the religion of the judgmental.

The folks that slamming President Obama for not using the word "creator" would be slamming him for something else if he was using it. They should just be honest and come right out and state that "no matter what President Obama does or says -- even if he was Jesus Christ and GOD acknowledged him as such -- they would still have a problem with him. Why? Because they are narrow minded! The narrow minded always make issues out of flag pins and such. Now - if we were to ask about WMDs and torture and such they would have nothing to say.

Regarding the speech before the Hispanic Congressional Congress, the text & video may be found here-

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/09/15/remarks-president-congressional-hispanic-caucus-institutes-33rd-annual-a

The passage in question reads-

"..Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. To British & French, to Dutch & Spanish, to Mexican -- to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land. We didn’t always get along. But over the centuries, what eventually bound us together - what made us all Americans - was not a matter of blood, it wasn’t a matter of birth. It was faith & fidelity to the shared values that we all hold so dear. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights: life and liberty & the pursuit of happiness."

President Obama concludes the speech with this traditional presidential declaration-

"Thank you. God bless you, and God bless the United States of America. Thank you."

Thomas Jefferson's original draft ran "....that all men are created equal and independent: that FROM that equal creation they derive rights inherent and unalienable..." When Franklin and Adams substituted the phrase "..endowed by their creator'' they garbled the argument, that our rights are a logical consequence of our equal creation.
The question of what created us is not relevant to the argument. President Obama, being a lawyer, probably prefers Jefferson's legal precision to the final wording of the Declaration.
While we are arguing about this passage, we should remember a phrase that appears a few lines earlier, in the preamble. The revolutionaries of 1776 acknowledged the need for "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind". That decent respect has been sadly lacking in our political life, especially in this increasingly nasty election campaign.

Ah, the bigots are supreme! Creators are self evident, and evil is anyone that does not support their ignorance and bigotry! Given their Creator is so all mighty powerful and involved in the minutia of human life, especially the American Christians, perhaps, they should let this God deal with the problem as he chooses? Perhaps, their lack of faith in their God leads them to choose to be God's instrument of punishment for the twig of resentment stuck in their eye! Perhaps, these self-righteous bigots are without sin and ready and able to cast their stones? Perhaps these bigots avoid their own sins by looking for the behaviors of others as an excuse for their ignorance and lack of faith?

"if rights come from the government instead of a creator, the government can take them away"

And if they come from a sentient-being creator, such a creator could take them away, so the two scenarios are effectively the same.

I don't know if the goal of retconning America's origins into a "Christian heritage" is about characterizing non-Christian minorities as not fully patriotic Americans, but that is the effect of the retconning. I've been hearing the phrase "real Americans" too often in the past three years, and it's basically a euphemism for any ethnic or religious minority that the user of the euphemism doesn't like.

Don't confuse teabaggers aka "Conservative Christians" with the fact that Obama is not a Muslim. They want to believe this and will continue to spew this lie while cherry-picking their Commandments like they do their Scriptures and the Constitution to conveniently and, by their own definition, "sinfully" ignore their own Ninth Commandment.

Do-as-they-say-not-as-they-do. That's what their dream of a "Christian Republic" is all about.

No credibility from the Catholic League whose mean, ranting, red-faced President calls the child victims of pervert priests "gold diggers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6fwPcoX6UU

The people who are whining about this are the same people who think he's a Muslim for attending that Christian church with the crazy pastor for 20 years. Why would anyone pay attention to what these single-neuron-brained individuals think?

And my "Creator" was a several-billion-year process that scientists generally refer to by the name "evolution". Will these people agree to bow down to Evolution for me, so that I don't get my fragile little feelings hurt? Because after all, my beliefs really do depend on others validating them. They will evaporate if the president doesn't confirm them daily.

Come on kids, it's the 21st century now. How much longer do you need to live in the 15th? Do you even WANT this country to survive in the modern world?

G__ Almighty!

How is it possible that this trivial, meaningless crap is newsworthy?

Doesn't say much for the intelligence of self-proclaimed "Christians".

The Declaration of Independence contains a number of ambiguous or evasive terms. 'created' is only one. 'Equal' is another. Then there is 'the pursuit of happiness,' a stroke of genius on Jefferson's part. Some Conservatives (the literate ones) never tire of pointing out that earlier drafts of the Declaration used the term 'property' among the partial list of rights but Jefferson changed it. They then either imply, or at least insinuate, that the authentic meaning of "the pursuit of happiness" is in fact 'property.' Jefferson, however, was well aware that 'property' in his time included slaves. The northern colonies, even then, would not sign on to anything like that, but the slavers who dominated the southern colonies needed some kind of cover, however specious, or they would not sign on. Jefferson gave it to them, and a can of worms got kicked down the road.

And my "Creator" was a several-billion-year process that scientists generally refer to by the name "evolution".

One reason I respect the Founders is that the "Creator" reference in the Declaration is broad enough so that it can be understood and appreciated by anyone regardless of religious stance. (The capitalization doesn't matter since many words were capitalized for emphasis in that era's documents.) As you point out, it can involve natural forces.

I would rather have a president who tries to do godly things (health care reform; equal pay for women; ending one unjust war; enhanced SCHIP; credit card reform; hate crime bill; AmeriCorps expansion; etc.) all of these things will help Americans lead better lives and help others.

I suspect that Obama, like many mainline Protestants does not believe much if anything about Christianity. In any case he is a false Messiah.

Posted by: ravitch
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Ravitch you are really silly gurl. If Obama does not believe in much of the Xian BS, as you claim, then he must not have anything to do with the Messiah either, so probably does not claim to be one. Then how is it you conclude he is a false messiah. Don't you see the contradiction there?
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"Thank you. God bless you, and God bless the United States of America. Thank you."
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Gosh I hate that sentence. I don't think there is a sentence that is so contradictory and so arrogant as that one. I cringe whenever that is uttered by those who mean it and also those who say it perfunctorily. Such pure BS. If I were a believer I would be even more pissed, that you audacious enough to tell the deity to bless certain people of your choice. Why do you think that the deity gives a flip about the country in the first place and that to in preference to others.
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Thomas Jefferson's original draft ran "....that all men are created equal and independent: that FROM that equal creation they derive rights inherent and unalienable..." When Franklin and Adams substituted the phrase "..endowed by their creator'' they garbled the argument, that our rights are a logical consequence of our equal creation.
Posted by: sr1720
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Very good observation, SR1720. These whinnies are never satisfied with the orts that are thrown to them. I bet the latter addition was to assuage the bigots whines. Then 230 years later the bigots again make that into an issue, just like the pledge of allegiance.
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Oh my goodness, what weak-willed and faithless generation is this, that unless your secular leader says "God" you all engage in a group hissy fit and proclaim that your Christian heritage is being taken away from you?

The people who believe Pres. Obama has left out the word creator as part of a conspiracy to destroy their christian heratige are also the same people who believe he isn't an American and that he's a marxist traitor intent on destroying America. The latest fantasy of these lunatics belongs in a newspaper why? Leave it in the pretend newspaper cum propaganda rag Newsmax.

Christian Fundamentalism is a cancer.

Please... you people act like children! He didn't say god... oh mom... he won't say "creator" or "god"!! ohhh.. you're in so much trouble!!! what morons

I'm not going to comment on the philosophical aspects, but politically, Obama is acting a complete idiot, and that really surprises me because Obama is most definitely not an idiot.

Who, if anyone, advised him to do this ought to be fired. If the idea was to get props from somewhere on the left for mis-quoting a historical document, well, even many atheists would be uncomfortable with the intellectual dishonesty.

The document says what it says and pretending it says something else is hardly going to win him accolades from people who like to think of themselves as objective and intellectualy rigorous.

Predictably, and, I hate to admit, in this case correctly, the religious right is understandably concerned about what message the President is trying to send. This is the central quote in the entire founding mythos of the United States. This is, to be tediously modern, America's "mission statement." For Obama to get it wrong by accident is arguably worse than having him get it wrong on purpose.

Sigh, the Christians are being ridiculous. What a bunch of idiots....whine, whine, whine. Conspiracy theories abound among the weak-minded. The words "Creator" and "Nature's God" have nothing to do with Christianity and do not prove that the Founders intended this country to be an exclusively Christian country. Not at all. However, the Christians would be perfectly happy if they could make Christianity the national religion. Of course, then they would have to have a civil war over which flavor of Christianity would reign supreme!

There's at least one recent book explaining that Lincoln was severely criticized for citing the Declaration of Independence; at the time, only the Constitution was thought to have anything to do with running the government.

Good for Obama...Its about time that we recognize that there is no supreme fatherly figure looking down on us from the vacuum of space above and listening to our prayers. The Founding Fathers were not privy to the science of cosmology but were familiar with the religion to which they were indoctrinated since birth.

No matter which way he goes in this argument, he's going to offend someone. Let it be. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Why is his omission upsetting? It simply shows his lack of historic knowledge. I don't think it is intentional.

"if rights come from the government instead of a creator, the government can take them away"
And if they come from a sentient-being creator, such a creator could take them away, so the two scenarios are effectively the same.

Posted by: Carstonio | October 25, 2010 2:18 PM
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God giveth and taketh away all of the time-- life, liberty, wealth, health... The point is some people trust His judgment more than they trust man's judgment.

And many conservatives will be upset with Obama no matter WHAT he says or does, short of committing suicide on prime time national television after conceding to Glen Beck and Sean Hannity that every single vile thing that was ever said about him on Faux News was true(and even then, they would complain that he did not do either of these things sooner!)

No matter what Obama says, Conservatives will disapprove of him. he muffed the quote - so what? No big deal. We don't need a theocracy.

The first sign of an ignorant person-- or tyrant-- is the consistent misquoting of history to match the idea expressed.

This Medicine Show barker-in-chief knows full well what he's doing.

And it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with himself, his own purposes and the con-job he is selling to the dwindling bunch of smilin' rubes still paying to see the same ol'show.

Obama is an opportunist, a bluffer, and a glorified Shinola salesman.

Say Amen, brothers and sisters...

"President Obama is the first president in American history not to acknowledge that all rights stem from God,"

And man created god so rights stem from man.

And would someone please offer some proof that our rights stem from god when we have fought to free ourselves from gods "rights"? Slavery, stonings, we are fighting god in civilised society and its hard for some to deal with.

Americas Christians have apparently given up on attaining Jesus' Ideals. That eye of a needle has never been narrower for these hypocrite$ and religious $cammers and $cammed. If there is a Judgement Day, these creep$ haven't a chance. Not a chance.

So, how did we jump from "creator" to "christian God" exactly? I mean, seems to me that all that line says is that whatever created us endowed us with these rights. Thanks, Mom and Dad! Thanks millions of years of evolution! Thanks Ea or Odin or, well, take your pick.

Seems awfully presumptuous to suppose "creator" must refer to the christian god, but I suppose that isn't a problem for some...

as someone who refuses to stand at baseball games when the 7th inning stretch is bastardized by the playing of God Bless America (or switches channels if watching it at home), I am delighted by a prez who plays things more neutrally. now if only he would stop with that "God bless the USA" slogan that implies that we are somehow more important than people in other parts of the world. of course, he knows how the yahoo crowd would react if he did stop, so I imagine that he's taking the politically more expedient route. and while I hesitate to quote bible-thumper Sarah Palin, too bad Obama doesn't have enough cajones to do what he believes.

I am sick to death of the religious right trying to force their religion on the country. I have seen these "good christians" in action, and I want no part of that. Unlike them, I try to have compassion and tolerance. I have never seen a group of "love filled" people with such anger and hate. BTW, racism is a huge sin, and most of the T.P.'s campaigns have been evil and racist.
Obama is a big breath of fresh air after that stinking liar those "good people" elected....TWICE!!!! Being responsible for the deaths of innocent Iraqis and our troops because you lied to start war is Hitler evil.

UNFORTUNATELY OUR PRESIDENT CAN SAY LITTLE WITOUT SOMEONE WANTING TO TAKE HIM TO TASK. THIS PARTICULAR ITEM IS TOTALLY REDICULOUS.

These are the some numbskulls that believe that man co-existed with dinosaurs....geez!

Not all American Christians are dumb, but it seems the dumbest are always Christian.

"Conservatives contend that Obama's inability to credit God for the rights reflects his belief that, if rights come from the government instead of a creator, the government can take them away," Newsmax declares."
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Nonsense! Human rights came not from the churches, Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming to democracy and human rights. And they still fight against it, as can be seen by the Christian fundamentalists who know neither their history, nor what the founding fathers intended.

I also deeply dislike the phrase "God bless America". It's stupid and arrogant, and Obama knows it, but he has to say it.

Republicans worship money and nothing else. Anything they say to the contrary is for the suckers. Ask them about the Sermon on the Mount if you don't believe this.

I just got back from a visit to DC and was at the WW II memorial. Carved in stone was FDR's declaration of war speech to the US Congress--all except his final words in finishing his address--"...so help us God." The Founders ascribed our rights as endowed by God because they wanted to emphatically emphasize that we do NOT derive our rights from any governmental body. This doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge of the Big Bang or, as one commenter alluded, to "meaningless rhetoric." What they said 225 years ago was exactly what they meant. Our rights are God-given to all men, and not State-given.

Christianity SHOULD be left out of politics. Our country is blessed with many different beliefs and cultures. Our leaders need to represent EVERYONE.
I would be scared to death if these angry racist religious nuts were in charge!! I am a taxpaying American, and would not take kindly if I were forced to adhere to the christian values of bigots, freaks, and the insane, after seeing what monster they are, I am covinced that sleeping in on Sundays is the way to go.

To FREETHOTLIB

Amen!

We know that the story in Genesis is not historically or scientifically accurate. Why would anyone care if President Obama left out a bit of meaningless rhetoric?
Posted by: david6 | October 25, 2010 11:35 AM

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Interesting, what else in the Constitution to liberals consider "meaningless rhetoric"? Maybe the freedom of speech?

Or maybe the part where the federal govt can not force its citizens into commerce.

This view of the constitution certainly explains alot about Obama's recent policies.

Muslims don't wear turbans? Then what's that thing on Osama Bin Ladin's head?

We do not live in the 1700s anymore. Heck, in the 1600s near the same area where the document was signed, people were being tried, burned, and stoned for witchery....by good pure christians!!!!

Anyone can say they are Christian but that does not make it so. Obama believes in liberation theology and that is collective salvation which is a total rejection of Biblical teachings. This is the belief you can suck profit off of other's misery. This is sick.
I am just sick of this phony pretentious act on his part to make us think he is something he is not. Frankly, I am not sure what Obama really is but I know he exhibits no Christian values. And he sat in a pew for years that preached African socialism and liberation theology by a wild crazed mad man, Mr. Wright.

I honestly think maybe the President just forgot his lines in the heat of the moment during his speeches and some folks will find fault with their mother if she told them to drink their milk and they wanted cool aid.

America was founded on CHRISTIAN principals by forefathers who believed in God. The concept of God is undeniably in the Constitution, on our money, etc.

Although Christian at its core, the principal of acceptance of all and freedom of all religious persuasions is guaranteed by our constitution.

Main line Christianity is not alone in it's acceptance of other believers of all faiths. Main-line Hindus, Moslems, Jews and almost all other world religions are accepting, and welcome, people of all beliefs that may be contrary to their own.

Christianity happens to be the underlying religion of American principals. And, as such, anyone who chooses to live in this great country should abide by these principles and respect the idea of a Creator (refardless of what religion you believe God to be ;).

If you cannot abide that the word Creator be used by a country founded on that very principal then perhaps you should choose to find another country more suitable to your needs.

Let me help you pack your bags.

Man, you Christians are soooooooo oppressed!

You know, when you so-called Christians oppressed black folk, you hung them from trees and burned their bodies. You set upon them with dogs and fire hoses. You beat them, you shot them, you burned crosses on their lawns.

That was genuine oppression. This by contrast is a trumped-up psychotic paranoid figment of the imagination.

Get over it -- you people are really genuinely full of yourselves.

The President's paraphrasing is also ungrammatical. The "each" in "each of us" is singular. This makes the correct form of the verb "is endowed" rather than "are endowed."

Tolerating grammatical heterodoxy from our chief magistrate will lead our republic to ruin. Right-thinking English teachers across America no doubt will spend sleepless nights grinding their teeth and contemplating how to undo the damage that is being done to our nation's youth and their use of proper syntax. It is a threat that cannot be overemphasized.

Where is the outrage?

Does anyone know why President Obama was never baptized?

JMC4 notes: "Right-thinking English teachers across America no doubt will spend sleepless nights grinding their teeth and contemplating how to undo the damage that is being done to our nation's youth and their use of proper syntax. It is a threat that cannot be overemphasized."

Well, there'll be no need for that, my friend, for right-thinking parents across the nation have already seen to it that the words of the duly-elected President of the United States shall not foul their ears lest they be lured at the slightest whisper to his Marxist ideology.

For the non-home-schooled, they've seen to it that the President is censored in public school. At home, Fox News gives his words (or, in this case, lack of them) the proper context to assure their children are never equipped to think for themselves.

Obama is Godless. Enough said!

Baaaaa, baaaaa, baaaaa.

Come on now sheep. Back to your MegaChurches.

Be good little sheep and make another contribution to keep up the Good Work.

Losers.

So what if he didn't say creator, so what if his grammar is only 100 billion times better that that of G W Bush -- good one JMC4 :), so what if he was never baptized, so what if you think he's a bad Christian, a closet Muslim, a cretin Jew, a rotten Buddhist, or just a plain silly rain dancing Indian ????? GET A LIFE !!! There's nothing more idiotic than a conservative... Oh, uh, excuse me, yes, there is: a christian conservative.

Obama is a no fool, and I agree with whomever said he should say what he believes, more on the order of his "guns and bibles" comments prior to him being elected President. We won't see him in the Oval Office after 2012, thankfully, and that type of candor can only help to ensure that.

I love the comments section of any kind of religious article online: it's THE forum for the 1% of American atheists to flex their puny, pseudo-intellectual muscles, quote Hitchens, call names, and lump all believers in with the likes of Joel Osteen. If you were truly intelligent, and you're not, you'd have the humility to say that what you don't know is what you don't know. Intellectual honesty would tell you that you have no more evidence of the absence of God than anyone has for the existence of God. As a believer, a scientist, and a humanitarian, I don't relish the chance to sneer down my nose at the wailing and gnashing of teeth in the abyss of those sneering at people of faith now.

Jesus Christ! Deliver us from our tiny, tiny christian brains.

The "Founding Fathers" did not write the Declaraton of Independence; Thomas Jefferson wrote it, and it was approved by the Continental Congress, with a minimum of editorial changes.

The Declaration of Independence is the literary creation of Thomas Jefferson. What he said or stated in it about God is not really relevant to a discuasion about the true nature of God, nor about the nature of relgion in govenment, nor about the origin or justification of the rights of man. Thomas Jefferson's thoughts about God, are, like everyone else's, his personal speculations.

The Declaraton of Independence sought to give a justification to the world for the colonial revolt against Great Britain; it gave vision and unity of purpose to the coming War of Independence. But to regard it as a relgious document is to show personal religous ignorance and shallowness.

Who cares? More irrelevant smoke screens and diversions from the right-wing.

"President Obama is the first president in American history not to acknowledge that all rights stem from God," said Jeff Field, Director of Communications, Catholic League.

This is, by far, the second dumbest thing ever said, by anyone, anywhere, ever. Only chimpy bush lays claim to the dumbest.

The country is founded on SECULAR principles with every respect to A religion that every citizen has every right to choose... NOT the other way around.

The sooner these professors of fairy-tales gets this straight in the brain (what's left) the better off they will be. If you disagree with this, you have every right to do that. If I then call you an idiot, I have that right as well !

It is simply splitting hair. Was Obama baptized? Does it matter?
Let us come out 1600 and 1700's and face the 21st century. The whole universe is evolving. Every day we are changing and the world around us is changing. Let us not be paranoid. The word God is enough, that takes care of creation also. There are more important problems before the nation, let the President concentrate on them.

KMSBEARS is perpetuating the WWII Memorial myth about the editing of FDR's "Day of Infamy" speech. See the debunking here:
http://www.nps.gov/wwii/photosmultimedia/upload/WWII%20Memorial%20Inscription%20Controversy%20web-2.pdf

You've heard of paraphrasing? How many Christian clergy, speaking about what Christ allegedly said, misquote or leave out pieces of "the gospel" simply to save time? This is no issue, like most of the garbage bought up about Obama's supposed or imagined faith and nationality.

In spite of the fact that Obama and his family were the loyal members of Rev. Wright's Christian church in Chicago for 20 years, the AP poll shows only 34%, or approximately one out of three, Americans believe that Obama is a Christian. A possible reason is that Obama has changed his original Christian name to a Muslim name.

I'm sick and tired of hearing what conservative hypocrites have to say about someone else. What ever happened to what Jesus preached? These morons are twisted.

The proposition does not need the word CREATOR. In other words, we do not need to be endowed by a creator to "hold these truths". There is no need to justify what is self-evident right? There is no need for a creator.

obama, His words describe him, He is a False Hope, If you listen to him you will love him. He carries a Bow without an Arrow. He will conquer all through his speech, his false hoods will capture all who sit and listen to him.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Religion or belief in the nature of God or higher power is irrelevant to this discussion. When this president or any president quotes from any one of our founding documents he has an obligation to the office to get it right and not to put his particular spin on it.

When he regurgitates those phrases with purposeful omission he dishonors 234 years of history and the freedoms that we all enjoy as crafted through those documents.

In far right Tea Bag Land, anybody who isn't a good ol' boy is viewed with suspicion. That sets off a search for a reason why. That naturally devolves into the suspect individual's purported Satan worship and even more serious arrangements with Forces from Hell. Our President is of mixed-race ancestry and didn't grow up on a ranch, on a farm, nor was he destined for labor in the mines. He's a very well educated, urbane politician and therefore is additionally suspect. The literal Word of God, also known as the Christian Bible, isn't literally true because it is internally inconsistent (i.e. it contradicts itself), and it is not a 21st century resource for understanding physics, chemistry, mathematics, engineering, biology, literature, languages, anthropology, and psychology. If you believe President Obama is dissing God because he doesn't quote verbatum from America's Foundational Documents then you have problems far worse than ignorance and unemployment. Pray on that and God will tell you so.

Obama’s worldview will compel his actions

The die is cast.

I. Obama’s Biblical Worldview Profile to determine actions

Obama's actions are easy to predict as he will instinctively, and without either forethought or even comprehension, oppose the Biblical worldview on ALL issues from a Creator to private property, abortion, support of Israel, homosexuality, ceding national sovereignty to a world body, to coveting and incitement of class warfare etc.

And this is not just partisan supposition. Obama gave a speech on June 30, 2007 which was available on You-Tube, a contemporary free video website widely available at no cost to those with internet access.

In this speech Obama publicly mocked and ridiculed the Bible Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy by name. The Biblically discerning noted Obama had pronounced his own curse and destiny from Deuteronomy 28.

Consider one example--private property. The Bible assumes private property as self evident. Exodus 20 contains the 10 Commandments and "Do not steal" is still there. How can you steal if there is no private property?

So the Biblical worldview supports private property as self evident. Under the ProCounsel model we should expect Obama to oppose private property--and indeed, he advocates "share the wealth".

Commandment number 10 in Exodus 20 is Do not covet. This Commandment not only assumes private property as self evident, but also recognizes, accepts and even endorses the concept some people will have more money than others, just as some are uglier, some are faster, some are smarter, and some are stronger.

Under the ProCounsel Worldview model we should expect Obama to oppose Commandment #10 and we can expect Obama to continue class warfare. Obama will oppose Israel, as supporting Israel is specifically mandated in numerous Bible passages. Those placing faith in his staff are misguided. Since America has been blessed due to its adherence to a Biblical heritage we can expect Obama to attack that heritage.

Obama will oppose National Sovereignty for precisely the same reason G-d mandated National sovereignty at the tower of Babel.
Genesis 11. Obama will continue to promote abortion (Psalms 139) and homosexuality as both are proscribed by the Bible. Obama will lead the United States to worship the creation rather than the Creat-r as this is prophesied in Romans 1:25. Romans 1 is actually a laundry list of future events.

Only those with Biblical knowledge and discernment will be able to use the ProCounsel Worldview model, although there are millions.

ProCounsel is certainly NOT a prophet, NOT formally trained in Bible studies, and NOT even a very righteous person, but the Divine greatness of the Bible is precisely that it was designed simultaneousy for the wise and the rest of us to understand.

I am glad people have time to get wound up that the President is ignoring the prevailing mythology.

obama’s islamic worldview

obama spent his crucial early formative years in moslem indonesia. obama himself has spoken of the moslem call to prayers broadcast 5 times every day.

Zogby conducted a poll of moslem perception of america in 2002 in, and while half of most moslem countries had a favorable view of america, indonesia, along with iran, did not. this is the hate america environment in which obama was immersed during his impressionable young years. remember moses was only raised by his jewish mother until he was weaned, and then in pharaohs house until manhood–yet moses was always jewish-- not egyptian. so it is with obama’s islamic roots.

obama’s exposure to anti american sentiment was voluntarily reinforced by his conscious selection of rev. jeremiah’s church for over 20 years, where anti-american venom was spewed every sunday.

consistent with this islamic worldview, obama selected a wife who famously said during the campaign that this was the first time she was ever proud to be an american.

another factor which will dictate obama’s future actions and is compelled by obama’s islamic worldview, is the fundamentally anti-democratic basis of islam. islamic countries tend to be monarchies or democracies in form only. hence, obama will have and act upon a basic visceral anti democracy worldview, summarized by “one person, one vote, one time”.

interestingly, moslems under islamic regimes, immediately seek to emigrate and indeed 85% of all refugees are moslem. why, if islamic rule is so great??

finally, moslems are permitted and indeed encourages to conceal their religious identity to avoid persecution.

how will this effect obama’s future actions?

1. obama will viscerally oppose israel and particularly jerusalem, as moslems prayed to jerusalem before mecca was selected. israel should NOT take any comfort from jewish advisors to obama–obama will oppose israel.

2. obama is at best indifferent to democracy, and-unbelievably- we have a president who is inherently hostile to the united states.

3. obama will become increasingly intolerant of dissent, free speech, free enterprise–much less opposition, consistent with islamic anti democratic and socialistic norms.

why has obama failed so miserably?????

Obama does not merely hit the delete button on “Creator” from the Declaration of Independence.

Consider that Obama mocked the Bible books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus by name.

Obama’s speech is still on You-Tube. These books are in the Jewish part of the Bible, the Old Testament , which is also part of the Christian Bible.

Note that Obama has never even CRITICIZED the Koran, much less MOCKED it.

Deuteronomy 28, in the very book Obama mocked by name, pronounces specific curses:

15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you

team obama confusion and stupidity??

20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him

ineffective failed stimulus billions–unable to produce any jobs???

38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off.

foreign debt–loss of national sovereignty???

43 The alien who lives among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, but you will be the tail.

Sources:

Obama mocking Deuteronomy and Leviticus by name
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w

The Bible: http://www.biblegateway.com/

obama has been an embarrassment to the office of president. I don't trust him, believe him or even like him anymore.

Uh, FYI..."creator" does not mean the Christian god. It means your creator, whomever that may be. Did the Founders say god? No. Get over it you right-wing nutjobs. And, stop trying to shove your beliefs down everyone's throats. I'm so sick and tired of it.

we will see who is

mocked..............

obama

or the Author of Deuteronomy and Leviticus

Conservatives should be far more concerned about Presidents that profess to be religious and frequently refer to God, then send thousands of young men into battle to die for a lie. To date, over 4,000 brave US soldiers have died in Iraq, a pre-emptive, totally unnecessary war against a people who had nothing to do with the 9/11/01 attacks on the US. A war based on a lie of weapons of mass destruction which Iraq did not possess. A war that has killed over 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians. Tens of thousands of which where women and children. And instead, conervatives are worried about a few missing words in a few of Obama's speeches. Good grief!

Hey. Maybe we were endowed by accident. You ever think of that?

You know, there ain't no such thing as an originalist sin. Or maybe there is.

If not from the Creator, where do rights arise?

"President Obama is the first president in American history not to acknowledge that all rights stem from God," said Jeff Field, Director of Communications, Catholic League.

So if all rights stem from "God" if one doesn't believe in "God" they don't have rights?

What if I believe my creator is nature or Satan, then I don't have rights?

The authors of the Declaration said CREATOR, not God. Get over this idea that Creator equals God. The authors were far too smart for that.

Regardless of the religious context, the President shouldn't be rewriting the Declaration as he sees fit.

And that we are endowed by EVOLUTION with certain unalienable rights. That among these rights evolved through the bloodshed of our forebears are the rights to believe what one wants to believe. And that most Christian Conservtives are as dysfuntional as heck and they could use a good dose of psychotherapy.

And if Conservatives gain control of Congress the American people will have to endure that the Earth is Flat and that Adam & Eve spontaneously reproduced and did not have sex. Truth be told that the more Conservative one gets that more sexual deviant one becomes. AMEN!

What they said 225 years ago was exactly what they meant. Our rights are God-given to all men, and not State-given.

POSTED BY: KMSBEARS
_________________

Then why didn't they say God? You acknowledge how intelligent the authors of the Declaration were. Then grant them the courtesy of acknowledging they could have easily written the word God but they didn't. They said Creator. They meant Creator. Even if your Creator is a turtle.

Obama's a Muslim.

Whether Obama believes is almost beside the point. He refuses to say the exact wording of the Declaration of Independence.

I think its because he believes himself the smartest president ever, even smarter than the guys who wrote the Declaration of Independence & Constitution.

He really a funny person, although he doesn't mean to be.

ProCounsel

Barak Obama is President of the United States; he was elected fair and square.

You hate him; you hate the Constitution; you hate America.

Why don't you leave our country, and go somewhere else, since America so obviously sickens you?

American can do just fine without you and your American-hating friends.

Before the Declaration of Independence, rights were granted by European monarchs, who ruled by Divine Right; that was the theory accepted by all, and supported universally by Christian Church authority. So when did all these Christians change their minds?

Obama is not a Muslim.

People say "Obama is a Muslim" are actually using a code that means, "Look how stupid I am."

Obama's a Muslim.

POSTED BY: CLEANCUT77
______________________

You poor dear. Even if he were, Muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews.

Most of the criticisms of Obama listed here in these comments are all 100 percent racist, based on nothing more than the color of his skin.

Well, folks! He's President. A black man has been elected President, and there is NOTHING, that can undo this fact. Vote him out of office, or even assasintate him, but he was still elected President and that will be forever, a part of American history.

So suck it up, and get over it!

Well, well, well. Why the surprise? Obama does not acknowledge that there is a Creator because the only One Obama worships is himself! If you don't know that you haven't been listening to what he does say. The jist of which is 'I won so I can do anything I please no matter what the people of this country want. I can even destroy this country if I so chose'. And it appears that he does 'so chose'.

The black man RACIST President has spoken. He said this about the Republicans...yup, racist for sure and not worthy of America:

"They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back."

What a moron.

Either he forgot (3 times) that the phrase "endowed by their Creator" was in there, which makes him a pretty piss poor Constitutional scholar; or he intentionally leaves it out, which proves his detractors' point.

So which is it?

By remaining neutral, President Obama is being appropriate in a democratic and diverse nation. When Christian theocrats/ mullahs perceive a competitor dominating this culture, they are the first to scream and jump up and down. Our President deserves to be commended for his neutrality and appropriate leadership.

2010 Key Religious Profiling of World Leaders

The religious worldviews of Ahmadinjad, Netanyahu and an emerging European Leader will be the roadmap of world events in 2010, not the traditional economic or political analysis. All over the world, simultaneously, religious worldviews are becoming the paramount policy factor.

Ahmadinejad’s worldview will compel Iran to seek (or at least not avoid) conflict with the Little Satan (Israel) to facilitate the arrival of the 12th Imam or Mahdi, which is his branch of Islam’s messiah. The eschatology verses in the Koran and the commentary are the roadmap to his world view and actions. Russia will be aligned with Iran. (Ezekiel 38)

Netanyahu, of course, should keep Jerusalem as required by Psalms 137:5,6

“5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill .

6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.”

Jerusalem will become an intractable problem.

“Zechariah 12:3 (New International Version)

3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves”

A European Leader will arise sometime who will be the key player in an Israel Palestinian Peace Treaty. His profile is in the Bible in the Old Testament or Jewish part in Daniel 9:24-27, (from Europe or old Roman Empire) 7:20 (takes over 3 countries), 8:25(military and political superstar) and in the New Testament in 2 Thessalonians 2 (goes into rebuilt Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and defiles it) and Revelation 13 (world ruler with absolute individual economic control). This ruler will first appear to be Israel’s friend then will turn against Israel.

When this European Leader arises, if Obama is still in office, Obama will have steadily declining relevance, then eventually utter irrelevance. Obama plays no meaningful role.

During the transitional period of Obama’s decline, his religious worldview (or more precisely the ostensible lack thereof) will be of significance. Obama will oppose the Biblical worldview without really even knowing why, as there are only 2 sides. The United States will NOT assist Israel in its conflict with Iran and Russia. Ezekiel 38.

ProCounsel is NOT a Prophet, religious leader, or even a very righteous person. But the Bible was written not only for religious leaders and scholars, but for the rest of us.

Good grief. The Rally to Restore Sanity can't come soon enough.

For those "Christians" so intent on pushing their view of spirituality, remember that the only reason you claim to be Christian is an accident of birth. If you had been born in some other culture you would probably be of some other faith.
It is all prescientific nonsense anyway so who cares. Most politicans pander to their audience. When it comes to claiming to believe in and follow Christian values conservative rightwingers are the runaway champions. However, actions speak louder than words and I doubt if Jesus ever reapeared he would have a good laugh at those claiming to be his followers. P.S. I wouldn't hold my breath that he'll show up.

Of all the silly topics this column has covered, this wins Silliest. If the Post insists on maintaining On Faith, it needs to balance out with one called On Reason. Maybe someone with lead with something that's Not Ridiculous.

The only One Obama woships is himself. There is no Creator in his world.

If you conduct a little pattern analysis of the comments here you will see that it is atheists and Christian-haters who are boiling over with narrow-minded rage, vituperation, and insult - the same things they accuse believers of. They show a desperate need to appear more intelligent and virtuous than those with whom they disagree and resort to abusive and vulgar language. How superior! It's pretty much the same in articles of this nature. Physican, heal thyself! Reminds me of how the communists would accuse others of exactly what they (the communists) were doing.) Then again, I suspect there is some overlap here. I know our schools don't teach it, but is was the Christian-hating atheists (communists and nazis - yes, Hitler was virulently anti-Christian; he said that Islam was the only religion he could respect) who left the largest blood trail in human history, and in only 74 years. Notice also how the aethists in our chattering class are invariably friends to every culture but their own. The most glaring example is the refusal to rebuild New York's St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church destroyed on 9/11 while greasing the way for the building of that mosque. Hitler would have been happy.

"Conservative Christian conspiracy theorists are anxiously reporting"

Really? These are the words of a bigot and one who throws out straw dogs.

Conspiracy? ROFL
Anxiously reporting? ROFL

No, Americans are just pointing out that Obama is FRAUD....

BTW, up yours Waters, just another worthless Obama apologist

And the blasphemers said he couldn't walk on water.

"I would rather have a president who tries to do godly things (health care reform; equal pay for women; ending one unjust war; enhanced SCHIP; credit card reform; hate crime bill; AmeriCorps expansion; etc.) all of these things will help Americans lead better lives and help others."

To imply that 'creator' means a christian god is arrogant and ignorant. Then again, what else would one expect from 'christian' conservatives.

See how the Christians love each other??? But not those who refuse to grovel on their bellies before the alleged inventor of HIV/AIDS and tsunamis.

mlbduffy said:
"The only One Obama woships is himself."

Egads good buddy, I think you're right.
.

it couldn't be that he thinks he is God, could it?

DanielintheLionsDen said:
"A black man has been elected President, and there is NOTHING, that can undo this fact."

Right, America was fair and non-racist and elected him. However the polls show he has not lived up to America's expectations. He has only himself (the kind of person he is) to blame.

Thank God we have a President who leaves The Creator out of the public discourse.

Enough abuse is heaped upon our God without adding the creation of a self-consciously abject humankind to the list of charges.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that each of us are endowed with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I don't see anything wrong with that. A tea party Christian type would not even write these things, that people are equal. Its clearly not part of their rhetoric.

The truths are self-evident not God evident anyway.

Leave it to the pack of "tea-party" types who can barely hide their bigotry behind their pretenses of patriotism, to find some obscure and meaningless falut with the best president this country has had in a long time, just because he's not a bible-thumping ignoramus like they are. And not pearly white either.

Signed,
The Washington Pinkskins

"If not from the Creator, where do rights arise?"

From our common human origin and our sentience, as well as our wish to retain our own rights.

Your theory is scary as anything. If your Creator is proven not to exist, you believe that no one has any rights?

Who, if anyone, advised him to do this ought to be fired. If the idea was to get props from somewhere on the left for mis-quoting a historical document, well, even many atheists would be uncomfortable with the intellectual dishonesty.
-----------------------------------
But if you actually watch the instance or read the transcript, he is not actually quoting the Declaration. He said:

"..Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. To British & French, to Dutch & Spanish, to Mexican -- to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land. We didn’t always get along. But over the centuries, what eventually bound us together - what made us all Americans - was not a matter of blood, it wasn’t a matter of birth. It was faith & fidelity to the shared values that we all hold so dear. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights: life and liberty & the pursuit of happiness."

He was illustrating the definitng characteristics of what brought us (people of many cultures -both with and without gods) together. It was that commonality, that mutal respect, that allowed us to form the nation and while for some that did involve a god, for some it did not.

"If not from the Creator, where do rights arise?"
------------------------
Actually rights come from the people around you. You only have a right to something if it agreed on by the rest of your society. Who (the greater who, not just humans) has rights and what they are are all defined by people. Why do you have the right to life, but the mosquito biting your does not? Because you decided it. If you could ask the mosquito, I am sure it would have a different view point.

Sikhs are not the only folks, male Sikhs anyway, wearing turbans.

The Ottoman Turks did as do Muslim men in West Asia and North Africa in centuries past. so did the Chinese Boxers during the Boxer Rebellion, but not quite for religous-related reasons.

And skullcaps are not worn by practicing Jews, but Muslims too nowadays, albeit in different sizes. Did I not spy the Pope wearing a sort of skullcap too?

So...what is a multiculturalist President into celebrating similarities in diversity to do too?

MY GOD!! YOU PEOPLE NEVER STOP WITH THE OBAMA BASHING!!

if the people by the people and for the people (especially with the christian majority)can nail their god (or faith so) to the cross!
what stop the majority from nailing their human president and human constitution to the other side of the cross?

delusion and hypocrisy in theology for sure lead to delusion and hypocrisy in ideology ,

the fact is ,democracy died for your sin ,another opium of the mass.

This notion that if the rights are given by the sky-daddy they cannot be taken away. Is the silliest thing I have heard. How do these idiots explain the fact that most of the rights were non-existent until very recently. The damn kings used to curtail most of these rights including the right to property, not to mention speech, religion etc, etc. Are we to believe that the dog had bestowed these about 230 years ago? This is absurd. This is the kind of muddled thinking that people get into when they get too much of scripture. The rights are what the powers to be allow of the public at large and are able to limit it by their powers. That is the bottom line, you can argue as much as you want but that is the really what happens in practice. In case of democracy the powers to be are the people at large, as it is supposed to be "by the people, of the people, for the people". If you don't believe me just look at the rights that have been trample in this country in the past 10 years. The right of the people's privacy had been trampled by the Bush's rogues and they were able to carry out by the acquiescence of courts and law enforcement apparatus. Do these idiots mean to say that their sky-daddy decide to withdrawn his benefaction of giving the privacy rights to the people of the country?

mono1

You posts do not make any sense, and are consistently irrelevant.