Islam (and reason) on trial in Tennessee

The level of ignorance in this country is truly unbelievable.

"but isn't it really about xenophobia"

No, xenophobia is the fear/hatred of people or ideas from other countries. Islamophobia is the fear/hatred of Islam.

One can be a xenophobe without being an Islamophobe, and visa versa. Not saying either is ethical or justifiable, but please get the terms straight.

Islam is basically a political ideology hatched by an ambitious desert warlord who envied the wealth of his neighbors' much richer and cultured societies. Each ideology needs a philosophy to justify it. The Communists, for example, used the theme of empowering the working class to eventually have a more just society. Islam’s ideology started first as the pillaging and domination of the nearby tribes, which widened to include the neighboring societies and now the whole world. This is to be achieved by teaching that all belong to Allah the Creator and they are his agents who would run it for him. Allah’s reward for those who die securing the property and wealth of the Nations, supposedly to Allah, will have great rewards in the afterlife that include all the joys of life that are missing in the Arabian deserts. Conclusion: Islam is a political ideology, albeit a primitive one, that is masquerading as a religion.

Sir,
If it helps you to sleep any better, I would just like to remind you that there is treatment for schizophrenia. But if the afflicted is stupid, then all you can do is pray.

The newest find of evolution at the time of the Scopes trial was Piltdown Man. It took evolutionists 30 years to accept the reality that it was a fraud.

Deliniating between political advocacy of Sharia law versus worshipping Allah will eventually prove beneficial, but I'm not certain the local Muslim community in Middle Tennessee wanted the task.

A religion is a philosophy, nothing more and nothing less. It is a set of beliefs, rituals and rules for living to which certain people ascribe. A religion is EVERY BIT as liable to criticism as ANY OTHER philosophy and it there is NOTHING "bigoted" about criticizing a "faith", provided the criticism is rooted is facts and reason.

It is no more "bigoted" to criticize Islam, or certain interpretations of it, than it is to criticize Christianity or Stoicism or Liberalism or Nazism or any other philosophy or ethos! Furthermore, when someone says "I am a Muslim" or "I am a Christian" they are laying claims to certain BELIEFS and affiliating themselves, willy-nilly, with others who do the same.

That said, it must also be acknowledged that there is a tremendous variety of opinion within Islam and any other faith. I don't understand why some people can't see this or why others insist on seeing criticism of Jihadism as a criticism of any other Muslim citizen.

Theists themselves are constantly criticizing each other's beliefs. I routinely see Christians taking wildly divergent stances on various issues and justifying those stances by citing scripture or their particular interpretation of it. I mean, the single biggest group of religions in this nation is called "Protestant".

In fact, one could almost say that all three Abrahamic Religions not only criticize but ARE themselves "criticisms" of other religions. Judiasm is a criticism of Bronze Age Paganism and various practices, such as human sacrifice, associated with it. Christianity is a criticism of Judaism and Islam is even more obviously a criticism of both of THEM.

Why, then, is it apparently so hard for so many of us to believe that different Muslims think and act in different ways? The Koran is a long, complicated and often vague book and, leaving aside the West's own religious disputes, we can't even always agree on the Constitution, which is a few pages long!

We really need to quit looking at this world through the false dichotomy of “left and right” and see it for the place of infinite nuance that it is. While there are no doubt Christian chauvinists in this country, one can criticize Islam or any other philosophy without being a “bigot” and, in this day and age, we NEED to criticize these politicized “religious” groups whether Islamic, Christian or other and we can no longer allow people to spew any kind of nonsense, attach a “god” to it and then call it “faith” and hold it above criticism!

ANDREW23BOYLE, thanks, great points of logic.

Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from opposition to a Nativity seen in a public park during the Christmas holidays.

Regarding the imposition of Sharia law, it takes a fair amount of willful blindness not to see that as a goal of many Muslims, it is certainly the goal of the Wahhabists who run Saudi Arabia, who coincidentally fund much of Muslim outreach worldwide.

I believe that Evolutionism and Secular Humanism might also qualify as religions.

What is Evolutionism? Remember the "God of the gaps" assertion by thiests that the evidence of God is found in the gaps that evolution science can't explain? Well, believers in Evolutionism have a faith that science will fill the gaps. The truth is that no one knows what's in the gaps -- that's why they are gaps -- so a conclusion for God or for evolution can't be made. Yet Evolutionists assert it will be science even though they have no proof. Their religion, Evolutionism, must take precedence over all other religions and be granted special status in explaining the unexplained.

Some very common elements of natural science remain mysteries. Examples are lightning and especially ball lightning. As a child I saw a lightning bolt rise from the ground about 20 feet away from me.

It was unlike anything I had ever heard of or seen before, but I didn't believe it to be a religious omen. The neighbor who explained to my parents that it was a "riser" reaching up to meet a lightning bolt said I should be thanking God to still be alive.

While there are no doubt Christian chauvinists in this country, one can criticize Islam or any other philosophy without being a “bigot” and, in this day and age, we NEED to criticize these politicized “religious” groups whether Islamic, Christian or other and we can no longer allow people to spew any kind of nonsense, attach a “god” to it and then call it “faith” and hold it above criticism!

---andrew23boyle

******************************************

The attempts to trivialize mushrooming of Islamophobic and bigoted attitudes that make news everyday in US and hiding behind "its just a critcism of a belief system" is reprehensible. No one's asking you to defer from legitimate criticism of muslims and Islam, muslims will certainly come up with counter arguments but if you want to bring out legislations through mob rule and turn muslims into second class citizens or cite these polls of 71% americans saying muslims cant build a mosque, that IS BIGOTRY and none of your fancy talk can hide it. So stop hiding behind.....Oh but Islam is not above critcism! No one's arguing such moot points. Just look at fox news and tea party rallies or hear Newt Gingrich (future president of US?) calling all muslims Nazi's and it will be obvious to you and everyone else the difference between criticism and fascism.

Yasser:

You are putting words in my mouth and terribly misattributing my motives.

I'm not going to bother to debate with someone who doesn't debate honestly but if you think there aren't those who take ANY criticism of ANY religion as "bigotry", you should try reading more widely.

I have, by the way, repeatedly condemned Gingrich for his disgusting OP-ED wherein he suggested our Republic take the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia as a model and I have REPEATEDLY stood up for the rights of my fellow citizens of ALL religious stripes to express themselves peacefully, even those with whom I disagree, including Imam Rauf and Rev. Jones. ANYONE can see ANYTHING I have ever written about these subjects by looking at my profile and I will put my record against your assumptions about me.

Good day.

It's sad how people naturally seek reasons to inspire fear and hate.

My family is from a small town in rural America, pure heartland. No Muslims, no Jews, not even any Catholics. Just Protestant Christians and only 3 churches, a Baptist, a Methodist, and a Presbyterian. Even in this small town you'll hear the children tease one another, "You're not going to Heaven because you aren't a [insert church]!" Undoubtedly they'd been taught this in their Sunday Schools.

Is God really so trivial that he cares where you sit on Sunday morning? I doubt it, he knows far more about you than that. Maybe a better message to teach our children is that The Lord expects kindness, not hate and fear. Jesus didn't teach us to insult and demonize strangers, I suspect he'd find the way we treat innocent Muslims revolting.

The church, mosque or synagogue you sit in really isn't all that important, it's the kindness in your heart that matters most.

America was built upon the principle of Religious Freedom. We can not allow evil extremists, regardless of what religion they happen to hide within, to compromise our nation's core value.

Sorry, but I fail to see how a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from Catholics building a church next to a middle school for the convenience of their pervert priests.

Regarding the imposition of Canon law, it takes a fair amount of willful blindness not to see that as a goal of many pervert priests, it provides protection from civil law through it.

The matter has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with our constitution. Although people cite Mr. Obama's father, there is always mention of evidence of Mr. Obama's Islamic belief, which evidence is quite dubious; that differs from Judenhat, in that, were the hatred of Obama related to his Judaism, all that would occur is reference to his father. There were Muslims in the US at the founding of the country; reasons to oppose denial of rights to Muslims and Catholics are identical. An excellent solution to huge mosques, if that is what is opposed, a solution that many would support, is to extirpate 501C status. Ended by that maneuver would be construction of large Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, Temples, and Cathedrals. Our taxes would decrease by 30%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We, the United States of America are in a world-wide war with islam, and many of you people here in the USA want to continue to let these terrorists build their mosques here in the USA.
Are you crazy, we are the only country in the world that lets this happen when we are in a war with them.
Wake up people, these people, the muslims are not your friends and never will be.

Despite the author's implication that the issue is ridiculous, we should have the freedom to criticize and debate Islam and its teachings. But often we do not, because we worry it might offend Muslims (i.e. we censor free speech). That is Sharia creeping into the USA - where insulting Islam is a crime. If a man stood on a street corner shouting pejoratives about Christianity most people would just roll their eyes ("What a nutcase"); Christianity is mocked all the time. But if the same man did so about Islam it would be news and would result in worldwide outrage by Muslims (and perhaps a few mass riots and killings). Self-censorship of free speech is a dangerous idea, especially when it becomes commonly adopted political correctness.

I believe that it is a profound mistake to label Islam a religion like any other and then frame this debate as one of freedom of religion. It is clear from the Koran and many of the Hadiths that Islam is not just another religion; it is a totalitarian system of government, politics and law that governs all aspects of life and whose commandments mandate violence against unbelievers and the hegemony of Sharia law across the earth. Ideologies that seek world domination are generally not compatible with Western concepts of civilization and freedom (see Nazism). Islam all over the world constantly and openly seeks the destruction and conquest of Western civilization and its flawed man-made laws and traditions (see MEMRI translated Middle East TV). How ironic that, in the name of freedom of religion, Americans are standing up in support of an IDEOLOGY that, when it gets the chance, will immediately abolish those very Constitutional ideals!

Sura 9:5 “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them… and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.”

Al-Bukhari Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795 “The prophet cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 4, Book 53, Hadith 392 “You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and his apostle, and I want to expel you from this land.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 4, Book 53, Hadith 386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you until you worship Allah alone...”

Sura 8:12 " I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers."

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

and on and on...

"....branches of the Federal Government have recognized major religions...." Well, isn't that nice that 'branches' recognize things. Recognition, huh? Well, that's fine. Recognize away. But, as an aside, does filing a brief in court in support of a 'recognized' religion constitute promoting? Really? You mean to tell me that throwing the full weight and force of the US Dept. of Justice behind a lawuit filed by a "religion" isn't supportig that religion?

A message to those who are calling for a "world-wide war with Islam": Ousama Ben Laden thanks you. With your stupidity and arrogance, you are dragging the US into a war with 1.5 Billion people. A war that it cannot possibly win, and that UBL was eager to start.
A religious war, between followers of Islam and followers of Christianity, would be a disaster for all Americans, all Muslims, and above all of humanity. I always believed and fought for freedom of expression, but calling for a religious war, or threatening peace, should be a crime, both in the US and in the Muslim World.
Haven't we had enough religious wars already? Isn't it time that we learn to live in peace and harmony, and isolate the extremists amongst us?

There is great variety in the Muslim World. Islam is a belief. OIC has 57 countries as members. Despite the large variation in the beliefs and the cultures there are a few things common to them that may be used as hard measurable data to see some of the effects of Islam. The Primary one for non-muslims is what are the laws for and the treatment of non-muslims in these Muslim countries. Across the board, the laws are discriminatory and hateful towards the non-muslims and the non-muslims are treated as second class humans. Why? The laws for the non-muslims are carried over from Sharia laws even for muslim that do not profess Sharia. Countries that do the treatment of the non-muslim is abysmal. It is in the examination of these laws, and the treatment of the non-muslims historically that one can get to implementation of Islam as an ideology and not only as a religious belief system. The basis of these hateful laws for the non-muslims is that Islamic "holy" books are filled with hate for the non-muslims. Allah explicitly states his hate and disdain for the jews, christians, and the "polytheists". An example is the upcoming ritual of Muslims going to Mecca for Hajj. Allah explicitly tells the Muslims to bar the non-muslims from coming near the Grand Mosque in Mecca because the non-muslims are "filthy or unclean". Non-muslims are not allowed in the entire cities of Mecca and Medinah and their surrounds because they are considered inferior. Muslims from all over the world go there yearly and not one has objected to this expression of disdain for the "filthy Kafir". By the implicit acceptance of Hajj by the various variations in Islam, all have in practical implementation accepted that the non-muslims are 'filthy Kafirs'. This supremacist attitude is also reflected in the laws of the OIC countries. In Sharia Compliant countries, a muslim cannot be given a death penalty for killing a non-muslim, and the blood money rates for a non-muslim woman is about 3% of a muslim man. Apostates are killed. Non-muslim man may not marry a muslim woman. Children of a muslim man and a non-muslim woman are automatically muslim. The non-muslim children of a convert to Islam lose inheritance rights, while a muslim cannot convert by law or he is banished and his property and possessions are divided among his relatives. These supremacist laws extend Islam well beyond a personal belief. What should one call it? The muslims themselves call it "deen" distinguishing it from madhab which they translate it to religion. Is their concept of deen an ideology?

ucfengr_2000, I know that this probably falls on deaf ears, but the difference is that this Muslim community is not building on public space. A nativity may be placed on private property. You can include Santa and Frosty if you want, and gather to worship them, if you like - as long as it is private property. The Muslim community there wants to purchase private property, build a mosque, and worship there. The local community may not discriminate against them simply because they are Muslim.

As for some of the ohter knuckleheads that post here - as has been pointed out many times, Christianity could be convicted of many of the same abuses as Islam is being accused of by you. So could any major religion, and many persistent philosophies as well. Islam is a religion, and, as such, enjoys protection under the constitution. I don't want ANY of you telling me what I am free to believe or worship or not - and I don't care how bizarre your beliefs are (some of the ones expressed here truly are!), I won't limit your right to express them, as long as you leave me alone. I have to say, however, that the level of wilfull ignorance and plain stupidity expressed by so many in this country is amazing - I certainly wouldn't want to use many who post here as references for my faith!

"A message to those who are calling for a "world-wide war with Islam":
....Isn't it time that we learn to live in peace and harmony, and isolate the extremists amongst us?"

I agree with you. No one wants a war with Islam. No one should have a war with Islam. However, there is a civil war going on within Islam, and the non-muslims are being forced to take sides in that civil war. How do we isolate the extremists amongst us? The jihadist quote chapter and verse of the Koran and the hadiath to justify their actions. Many muslims agree with their interpretation although they may not agree with their methods. Other muslims disagree with that interpretation and are being killed by the jihadists. Just take a look at Pakistan, Iran, Iraq and see why jihadists are killing other muslims. Anyone who opposes their method is being targeted. What should one call this muslim killing muslim, if not a civil war within Islam? Now is it legitimate to question the ideology of the jihadist and see what motivates them? I think it is. When the peaceful muslims criticise the jihadist interpretation they want to keep Islam as it was for them. When some of the non-muslims examine the jihadist ideology they find Islam to be a supremacist ideology. Other non-muslims examination suggests otherwise. Muslims are not used to having Islam parsed and examined and analysed in the manner that is happening recently. They used to do it themselves (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi), but then the critics started being killed and silenced.
Razi is quoted as saying:"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed."

See how the other religions are examined. Islam is merely joining the modern world.

If one person believes in an invisible skygod he is mad.
If a thousand men believe in a skygod = then it's a religion.

It's a mad. mad, mad, mad world.

The Quran is an exercise in hate speech. It preaches hate towards unbelievers right from the beginning, and that hate takes up as much as 60% in total.

Don't believe me? Please educate yourselves and simply read it on line.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

It wont take long. The first section is peaceful enough, only seven verses. You'll read it in ten seconds. The second section (Al-Baqara) is where the fun begins. You don't even have to read the whole section. Just the first few hundred words. Or more. It doesn't matter. You'll get the idea.

Abrahamhab1,
Besides being a xenophobe,an Islamophobe,U are mind-bogglingly ignorant and on top otf of that u insist on advertisng your ignorance.

Islam and its 1.6 billion followers and its world class civilaization and its conribution to humanity,the last thing they is a certification of recognition and legtimacy from some one like u-and the idiots in Tenn-because Islam gets its legitimacy form God alone:

Quran,3:19: "The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. (19) So if they dispute with thee say: "I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the people of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" if they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants. (20) As to those who deny the Signs of Allah, and in defiance of right, slay the Prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty. (21) They are those whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help. (22)"

By Islamic definition (thru the sincere act of submission to God alone)all prophets were Muslim:Adam,Noah, Abraham,Moses,Jesus and Muhammad.

Islam restored the authentic and original monotheism of Abraham,Moses and Jesus to its purity.

Ignorance is no excuse-well except for the ignorant.

Part II:

“When the Lord thy God shall bring
thee into the land whither thou goest
to possess it, and hath cast out
many nations before thee... And
when the Lord thy God shall deliver
them before thee; thou shalt smite
them, and utterly destroy them;
thou shalt make no covenant with
them, nor shew mercy unto them:...
Neither shalt thou make marriages
with them... ye shall destroy their
altars, and break down their images,
and cut down their groves, and burn
their graven images with fire...
For thou art an holy people unto
the Lord thy God: the Lord thy
God hath chosen thee to be a
special people unto himself,
above all people that are upon
the face of the earth.”
--Deuteronomy 7:1-6

"And thou shalt consume all
the people, which the Lord thy
God shall deliver thee, thine
eye shall have no pity upon
them..... But the Lord thy God
shall deliver them unto thee
and shall destroy them with a
mighty destruction, until they
be destroyed."
-- Deut 7:16,23
"...Smite through the loins
of them that rise against him...
that they rise not again!"
-- Deut 33:11
“And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes,
and thou shalt bake it with dung
that cometh out of man, in their
sight.”
--Eze 4:12

Leviticus 26:29 “And ye shall
eat the flesh of your sons, and
the flesh of your daughters shall
ye eat.”

“And thou shalt eat the fruit of
thine own body, the flesh of thy
sons and of thy daughters, which
the Lord thy God hath given thee,...”
-- Deuteronomy 28:53

"This woman said to me, 'Give your
son, that we may eat him today, and
we will eat my son tomorrow.' So we
boiled my son, and ate him. And on
the next day I said to her, 'Give
your son, that we may eat him'; but
she has hidden her son." When the
king heard the words of the woman
he rent his clothes. . . and said,
"This trouble is from the Lord! . . . "
--2 Kings 6:28-30

Why is "On Faith" feeling the need to condemn people who oppose the establishment of a Mosque but blatantly ignores Muslims attacks on Christians? Seems that "On Faith" should view the actual killing of people because of their religion to be more newsworthy than people appropriately going through the zoning process.

The Muslims have bee performing "religious cleansing" in the middle east for centuries. Recently, an Iraqi Christian Church was bombed by Muslims killing around 50 people. This incident was only one of many. The Christian Science Monitor wrote "Bombings in Baghdad late Tuesday and early Wednesday targeted Christians, killing at least four just 10 days after more than 50 Christians were killed by Al Qaeda-linked gunmen who stormed a church during Sunday mass. ... Almost half of the approximately 800,000 Christians in Iraq before the war are believed to have fled – many given refugee status in the West." Seems that the Muslims do not feel constrained by legal niceties.

While we're pompously, hatefully (altough your Jesus told you not to be) and ignorantly delighting in cherry-picking the holy scriptures of others to prove they are murderous, violent and unmerciful, we should do the same to ban Christian Churches as well:

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4

“...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God”
-Deut 5:9

*"For our God is a consuming fire!"
-- Hebrews 12:29

* “He cast upon them the
fierceness of his anger, wrath,
and indignation, and trouble,
by sending evil angels among them.
” Psalms 78:49

* “Behold, the day of the
Lord cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger...”
-- Isaiah 13:9

* “The Lord is a man of War!”
Exodus 15:3

“As it is written, Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.” --Romans 9:13

"...They shall fall by the sword:
their infants shall be dashed in
pieces, and their women with child
(pregnant) shall be ripped up!"
-- Hosea 13:16

"... at midnight the Lord smote
all the first born in the land of
Egypt, from the first born of the
pharaoh... unto the first born of
the captive that was in the dungeon;
and all the first born cattle"
-- Exodus 12:29

“I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord
do all these things.”
-- Isaiah 45:7

"Their children shall be dashed
to pieces before their eyes!
There houses spoiled, and their
wives raped...Dash the young men
to pieces...have no pity on the
fruit of the womb, the children
shall not be spared"
-- Isa 13:16-18

“Happy shall he be, that taketh
and dasheth thy little ones against
the stones.” --Psalms 137:9

“And he went up from thence unto Bethel:
and as he was going up by the way,
there came forth little children
out of the city, and mocked him,
and said unto him, Go up, thou
bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on
them, and cursed them in the name
of the Lord. And there came forth
two she bears out of the wood, and
tare forty and two children of them.”
-- 2kings2:23-24

“Moreover of the children of
the strangers that do sojourn
among you, of them shall ye buy,
and of their families that are
with you, which they begat in
your land: and they shall be
your possession. And ye shall
take them as an inheritance for
your children after you, to
inherit them for a possession;
they shall be your bondmen for
ever:” -- Lev. 25:45-46

Part II:

“When the Lord thy God shall bring
thee into the land whither thou goest
to possess it, and hath cast out
many nations before thee... And
when the Lord thy God shall deliver
them before thee; thou shalt smite
them, and utterly destroy them;
thou shalt make no covenant with
them, nor shew mercy unto them:...
Neither shalt thou make marriages
with them... ye shall destroy their
altars, and break down their images,
and cut down their groves, and burn
their graven images with fire...
For thou art an holy people unto
the Lord thy God: the Lord thy
God hath chosen thee to be a
special people unto himself,
above all people that are upon
the face of the earth.”
--Deuteronomy 7:1-6

"And thou shalt consume all
the people, which the Lord thy
God shall deliver thee, thine
eye shall have no pity upon
them..... But the Lord thy God
shall deliver them unto thee
and shall destroy them with a
mighty destruction, until they
be destroyed."
-- Deut 7:16,23
"...Smite through the loins
of them that rise against him...
that they rise not again!"
-- Deut 33:11
“And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes,
and thou shalt bake it with dung
that cometh out of man, in their
sight.”
--Eze 4:12

Leviticus 26:29 “And ye shall
eat the flesh of your sons, and
the flesh of your daughters shall
ye eat.”

“And thou shalt eat the fruit of
thine own body, the flesh of thy
sons and of thy daughters, which
the Lord thy God hath given thee,...”
-- Deuteronomy 28:53

"This woman said to me, 'Give your
son, that we may eat him today, and
we will eat my son tomorrow.' So we
boiled my son, and ate him. And on
the next day I said to her, 'Give
your son, that we may eat him'; but
she has hidden her son." When the
king heard the words of the woman
he rent his clothes. . . and said,
"This trouble is from the Lord! . . . "
--2 Kings 6:28-30

What is Evolutionism? Remember the "God of the gaps" assertion by thiests that the evidence of God is found in the gaps that evolution science can't explain? Well, believers in Evolutionism have a faith that science will fill the gaps. The truth is that no one knows what's in the gaps -- that's why they are gaps -- so a conclusion for God or for evolution can't be made. Yet Evolutionists assert it will be science even though they have no proof. Their religion, Evolutionism, must take precedence over all other religions and be granted special status in explaining the unexplained.

Posted by: blasmaic

You must be out of your mind, perhaps you are without one. There is no such thing or meme as "evolutionism". There is Evolution, evolutionary, etc but no evolutionism. It is a creation of your fertile imagination, and your ilk. Evolutionist do not have faith that they can fill the gaps. Perhaps they will be fill some of the gaps in the near future and some may take yet a long time. Then there may not be explained anytime soon, perhaps never too. However, they do not venture to fill the gaps with trite speculation about some mythical sky-daddy magic. You theists should be cowering in the crevices and the dark corners in shame given the track record where you substituted the sky-daddy mythology in all of the gaps of the yester years.

The evolutionists do not demand any special status. They are the ones humble enough to be skeptical of all claims mostly of their own ilk, till the claims are backed by unshakable evidence. And are yet open minded to account for any contradictory evidence that may show up at a later time. It is the theists that make claim to a special status on holding on to their discredited truth claims (and demanding their claims be given unearned respect) for all those gaps where the scientific light has not yet shone.

areyousaying,

Quoting from those verses is pointless.

The difference is those violent verses obviously are not currently being practiced.

The violent verses from the Quran ARE currently being practiced as we are witnessing all around the world.

Asizk:
Who are you trying to kid? In all of Islam's history to this day the verses you cite have a very horrible consequences for the non-muslims. When Allah says "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" That has always meant from the time of Muhammad if you accept Quran and Muhammad. That is why the jews and christians are said to have corrupted their scriptures because if they had not they would have all accepted Muhammad. Keep going after the verses you quote and after expropriating all the prophets, and the scriptures of the Christians and the Jews, Muhammad has Allah saying:
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

Areyousaying,
Adding to what JohnnyBoston said,
look at how the current laws of the muslim countries express the hatred for the non-muslims in Islam. That is in the present, in the here and now. One does not need any verses from scriptures to see that. Can you point to any country with a non-muslim majority that has such hate for the muslims as the laws of the Islamic countries show for the Kafirs?

By Islamic definition (thru the sincere act of submission to God alone)all prophets were Muslim:Adam,Noah, Abraham,Moses,Jesus and Muhammad.

Like every muslim you full of crap as far as logic goes, in these matters. First of all these characters all myths. Even if we grant for a moment that they were real people, you claim is full of horse manure. This Adam character, could not even follow one simple order not to partake anything from that stupid tree. How do you surmise that he submitted to the sky-daddy? Then your buddy Noah, a sloven drunk, who could not keep his clothes on and this dunce is a role model? Then we have the Abraham the wife pimping, abandoner of his baby mama, and killer of his child pond scum is to be adored? Ah then is the Mosses role model to your MO, he is a the most disgusting genocider of all in fiction and history. The only saving grace about Moses is that he is fictional character and MO is not. The less we speak of itinerant hallucinating preacher, so much the better for him.

Islam restored the authentic and original monotheism of Abraham,Moses and Jesus to its purity.

Are you stupid, when did the Abraham's or Moses's sky-daddy he was the only god? He always told jews to stop whoring around with other gods. He did not say there were no other gods, only claimed he was their god. He told them not to piss him off by whoring with other gods.

Freedom314,
Read this verse:
Al Baqarh, 2:190-191: "Fight in the cause of Allah (to establish freedom of conscious) those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye catch them (the transgressors), and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." (191). "

The old trick of distorting and misquoting the Quran out of context no longer works:
Comapre the verse that u misquoted here with the full verse immediately belwo it which is the full verse:

Your misquote: Sura 9:5 “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them… and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.”

Who are the unbelievers? Read on:

The full verse: Quran,9:5:"But when the forbidden months are past (when pilgrimage and other rituals are performed), then fight and slay the pagans (the heathen Arabs and Bedouins who persecuted,oppressed and turned out the Prophet and his infant Muslim community from Mecca and prevented them from worshipping peaecfully in the first 13 years of his mission at the Kaba where Muslims are performing Hajj now as we sepak)wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.(5)"

Freedom of conscious is a scared right for every human soul and Muslims committed to great battles in history to establish that right for all mankind which never existed before Islam:Fighting those heathen Arabs (and not the people of the book-Christains and Jews)was not because they were heathen but because they interfered thru violance with the right to freedom of conscious of the Muslims:The Quran clearly states "No comulssion in religion."

And if those heathen or any other aggressors stop their aggression then:

Al Anfal, 8: 61:”But if the enemy Incline towards peace, Do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One That heareth and knoweth All things.”

Space,time and this forum do not lend themselves to deal with all your delibarte misquotaions. But I refere u to:

Muhammad Asad (the former Leopold Weiss who was a scholar both of the Quran and the Bible-a European Jew who converted to Islam in 1926, born in Western Ukraine in 1900, lived in and travelled extensively in the Arab/Muslim world and died in Spain in 1992). Proficient and well-grounded in Arabic and Islam, he spent seventeen years on his translation of and commentary on the Quran: "The Message of the Quran." He is also the author of the charming classic "The Road to Mecca." Consulting Asad's commentary is imperative for proper understanding of Quran.

Sigh...I am getting so tired of the bigoted "Muslims are terrorists" fear-mongering line. Did you know Hitler was a Christian? Should we blame all Christians for the actions of Hitler? Of course not. It is just as unfair to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush.

Many of your readers clearly don't have a problem bashing Christians.

SteveR1,
The position of the Quran is unequivocally clear on the sanctity of human life:

Al Maeda, 5:32: "…whosoever slayeth a person, except for a person (homocide,manslaughter), or for corruption (mischief, sedition or oppression) in the land, it shall be as through he had slain all mankind, and whosoever bringeth life (saves a life) to one it shall be as though he had brought life to all mankind…."

GWB-the clueless idiot who is not capable of writting books- told the world that 'god' orderd him to invade,occupy and destroy Iraq on absolutely false pretnese which resulted in:
- Murder of some one million innocent Iraqis,and turned into refugees over million Iraqis-overwhelmingly Muslim but including four hundred thousand indigenous ancient Christains.
- GWB's Crusade-these are his words-on that Muslim nation was the prime reason for destructive civil war between Sunni and Shiah Muslims so they fight each other rather than fight the American occupation-and it worked because on this one the Iraqis were stupid.Iran found this opprtune and poured fuel over fire.

-Saddam's dictaorship as all Arab/Muslim rulers are-not withstanding,his regime was a secular nationalist and all Iraqis were terated as equal citizens regadless of their religon-Christians prospered as never before and his deputy and freign minister Taqrq Aziz was a Christain and who is unjusfibaley now put on death row by the parochial Shaih Iran-backed junta while the US governemnt enjoys the show.

The attack by Al Qaaedah on the Church in Baghdad was just as shameful as the GWB's war of choice on Iraq which caused all the destruction and death and turned Iraq into a failed state and a banana republic.

There was no Qaedah in Iraq before GW's war on Iraq and no secterian war at all.

jews in occupied Arab historic PAlestine destoryed only this year alone eighteen mosques,one church and buldozed an ancient Muslim cemetry in the heart of Jerusalem.

that war was fought with American blood and treasure on behalf of and on the encourgement of jews:remember Wolfwitz,AIAPC...and Joe Libeman???

that war was not fought for oil:Saddam was selling oil to the US and to the devil-he was not going to drink it for breakfast.

That war was fought so 'isrl' tightens its hegemony on the reigon and steals the little PAlestinan land left with impunity.

Al Qaedah which was created by the CIA and Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviets in Afghanisatn murdered more Muslims than any other group of people-and Islam and Muslims have no obligation whatsoever to defending or apolgizing for its crimes nor are can they be guilty by assocaition.

Are all American jews guilty for the war crimes and crimes against hunaminty committed against the Palestinain People by 'isrlis' for the past 63 years???

I-Slam, the mock-religion of pieces, is no more a 'religion' than is communism. The upside to communism is that its adherents aren't nearly as ready to blast themselves (as well as their own families) into smithereens as are the diaper-headed jihadists who use I-Slam as a cover. After all, the politically-correct western world will never declare itself at war with I-Slam - that would not be nice (sarcasm). And so I-Slam continues to slam (in every way possible) the infidels.

Kafir-always a befitting name!!
Again and since u quoted from Yousef Ali's transaltion why not raed and quote his commentary and numbered notes below every verse?

Either because of your usual and uttter ignorance or out of delibarte distirtion-take your pick.

Let me repeat for the millionth time what Islam means:The submission of one's self to God alone-which besides freeing it from all wordly slavery -is also the fundamental article of the Isalmic faith.

Accordingly all who submitted their well to God alone-the One and Only God-the God of Adam,Noah,Abraham, Moses,Jesus and Muhammad-were all Muslims by definition.

Unlike Judaism and Christianity who take their names after persons like Judah and Chirst-Islam takes its name from the very act of believing in God thru submission to him alone.

Here are some verses which clearly shows the all inclusive outlook of Islam:

Al Baqarah, 2:62: "Those who believe (in the Qur'an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians (earlier monotheists), any who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." See also 5:69.

Al Baqarah, 2:163:” And your God is One God (O mankind): there is no God but he, the most gracious, most merciful.”

Al Baqarah, 2: 136:" Say ye (Muslims): We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us (The Quran), and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to -all- Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference (distinction) between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah –in Islam."

Al Baqarah, 2:285: "The Messenger (Muhammad) believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books (including the original Bible), and His Messengers: "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Is this clear now?

Asizk - You miss my point. The Quran may be "unequivocally clear on the sanctity of human life. However, "On Faith" seems to prefer vilifying Christians who are attempting to use a legal process while ignoring the blatant attacks on Christians by Muslims.

Instead of referring to the Christians with the derogatory term xenophobic, "On Faith" could have published an article on how certain Muslims are not obeying the Quran and should be ostracized for these hostile actions.

Proud to be kafir.

Asizk - You miss my point. The Quran may be "unequivocally clear on the sanctity of human life. However, "On Faith" seems to prefer vilifying Christians who are attempting to use a legal process while ignoring the blatant attacks on Christians by Muslims.
Instead of referring to the Christians with the derogatory term xenophobic, "On Faith" could have published an article on how certain Muslims are not obeying the Quran and should be ostracized for these hostile actions.
Posted by: SteveR1 | November 14, 2010 4:36 PM

--------------------
SteveR1, have you ever noticed that Muslims spend more time and energy telling us how stupid and ignorant we are for "misunderstanding" Islam than they do holding accountable all the Muslims killing in the name of Islam? Supposedly they are the ones "misunderstanding" Islam.

Who cares what muzlums think. They're no damn good and they've proven that many times over, remember.

Just pack up and get the hell out of our country.

All religions are con jobs foisted on the poor by the rich. By convincing the poor to subjugate themselves and give up their quest for wealth and power in this life for a guarantee of a rich everlasting life in the hereafter, the rich are able to maintain their control over the poor without the expense of oppressive force.

Secular wrote;

"You must be out of your mind, perhaps you are without one. There is no such thing or meme as "evolutionism". There is Evolution, evolutionary, etc but no evolutionism. It is a creation of your fertile imagination, and your ilk."

My, you defend Evolutionism with such a religous zeal Secular. Is everyone who shares a different view from you a lunatic ("out of mind") or mentally retarded ("perhaps without one").

Remember that it was an atheist by the name of Adolph Hitler who began the Holocaust by killing the mentally and physically disabled. We should not characterize our opponents and insane or retarded -- it's unfair to the instane and retarded.

Please, Secular, I did not mean to trivialize or insult the religion of Evolutionism that you worship with such reverence and fealty.

I respect your faith. We live in America! Practice your religion as you see fit, but remember to respect non-believers (that would be those of my "ilk").

I did not say I was any type of theist in my earlier writing. Just a WaPo reader. It was my neighbor who said I should thank God I wasn't struck by lightning.

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius!
Aquarius!

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius

shewholives - I agree with what you are saying; however, my complaint is with "On Faith". As I expressed in my response to Asizk, "On Faith" does not expose what you stated, which is"that Muslims spend more time and energy telling us how stupid and ignorant we are for "misunderstanding" Islam than they do holding accountable all the Muslims killing in the name of Islam?" I hope that "On Faith" will take some effort to expose that it is the Christians who are under attack.

No one is under attack. The nation, however, has gone crazy with fear of Muslims. It doesn't help that Right Wing politicians have encouraged it, but of course, we all know that winning elections is far more important than the good of the nation.

Asikz writes:
"Kafir-always a befitting name!!
Again and since u quoted from Yousef Ali's transaltion why not raed and quote his commentary and numbered notes below every verse?

Either because of your usual and uttter ignorance or out of delibarte distirtion-take your pick."

As shewholives writes [["that Muslims spend more time and energy telling us how stupid and ignorant we are for "misunderstanding" Islam than they do holding accountable all the Muslims killing in the name of Islam?"]], I have no interest in getting into a Quran quoting match with you here. My goal is to tell my Kafir fellow citizens about the shenanigans of Islam. You are one of the handful of people who belong to the "19'ers" group of Edip Yuksel.
http://www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm

Frankly, it is not the kafirs you have to convince. It is your other Muslims who you have to convince. Do a search on submitters or submission.org and you will get thousands of sites and thousands of muslim warning of how fake and anti-Islamic that viewpoint is.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Deviant/Submitters/
"The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah. This claim in itself is sufficient to remove the Submitters from Islam."
Rashad Khalifa was assassinated by a muslim at his Tuscon Masjid.
Personally, as a kafir I wish muslims would listen to you and reform. But the Kafirs should know that you do not represent but a few muslim wannabe who are not accepted by muslims as believers.

If Islam is what you say it is, why don't you tell us why are the laws of the muslims countries so hateful towards the non-muslims? Why is it that Sharia imposes the hated and hateful Jiziya tax on the Kafirs, and why is it that muslim scholars have for over a millenia agreed that Jiziya is indeed designed to humiliate, insult, and degrade the Kafirs?

Through the GOP's evangelical wing, primitive superstitions like Christianity are quite literally about to kill humankind's chances to survive this century:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/11/in_the_gops_house_god_wont_all.html

This should disgust and infuriate anyone who either has children or an education and gives a darn about the human race. Decades from now all of America is going to curse at the mention of the GOP and their deal with the Devil.

IMO, the writers of The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution should have put " any totally pacifist" in front of "religion". They were gullible into believing that all religions preach only peace.
Also, IMO, if a group of Muslims believe in interpreting Islam only in a totally pacifist way, they should modify their religion's name. As it stands now, it's only partially pacifist, only between the believers.

My, you defend Evolutionism with such a religous zeal Secular. Is everyone who shares a different view from you a lunatic ("out of mind") or mentally retarded ("perhaps without one").

Blasmaic, those are your words not mine. Don't try to conflate my words with your to create a straw man and knock it down. That is cheap stuff. There really no such word as evolutionism, at best it is an alternate word for biological evolution. That word does not even mean a philosophical point of view, it is an evident driven knowledge or scientific discipline. When you try to conflate it I pushed back on it. We rationalists are not going to play nice any more. Because, it is not reciprocated.

Remember that it was an atheist by the name of Adolph Hitler who began the Holocaust by killing the mentally and physically disabled. We should not characterize our opponents and insane or retarded -- it's unfair to the instane and retarded.

Hitler being an atheist is nothing but a canard propagated by the theist. He was born a Catholic, which he never renounced much less he ever claimed to be an atheist. His entire machinery was made of Lutherans and Catholics. Both RCC and the Lutheran churches were complicit in his genocidal crimes. Worse is of late, even ex-nazis have resorted to it. Case in point Mr. Ratzinger an ex-nazi of RCC has the gall to use that canard like you did, I presume he inspired you. Mr. Nazinger would be a more apropos name for that good for nothing low life, that he is. Again I have never characterized people with differing views from mine as insane or retarded, those are your words.

Please, Secular, I did not mean to trivialize or insult the religion of Evolutionism that you worship with such reverence and fealty. I respect your faith. We live in America! Practice your religion as you see fit, but remember to respect non-believers (that would be those of my "ilk").

I haven't worshiped anything, since the time I saw the light of reason, over a decade ago. Needless to say I have great reverence to science and people of science. I have no faith and I don't care if you respected my faith if I had one. I see no compelling reason respect anyone's delusions. If you want me to respect your ideas, they better be sound in my view.

Sigh...I am getting so tired of the bigoted "Muslims are terrorists" fear-mongering line. Did you know Hitler was a Christian? Should we blame all Christians for the actions of Hitler? Of course not. It is just as unfair to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush.

Posted by: patr10001 | November 14, 2010 3:43 PM
##########################################

Enough already, how many non-muslim countries do you know which are steeped with laws discriminating the non-majoritarian people. Compare that with each and every OIC country is steeped with discriminatory laws against the non-muslims. Until the called moderate muslim thought leaders so come out unequivocally against such laws in OIC countries do not even hold a brief against us when we are critical of Islam. On the other hand overwhelming majority of non-muslims eschew for most part all the vile passages of their scripture.

Xenophobia is an American institution, whether it's on religious, national, state or ethnic grounds. A nation that hates it's own demographics. A nation so pathetically brainwashed by institutional patriotism that the most deadly slur is "anti-American", and of course each one of them believes they are the REAL Americans.

Arguing that Islam isn't a real religion because you're a Christian or a Jew, on any grounds, is stupid. For every Islamic atrocity there's a Christian or Jewish atrocity. What's the difference?

All religions should be banned from public places and any religion that tries to force their views should have their useless unproductive leaders consigned to a labor-camp, permanently.

Religion's ALWAYS include ultra-ignorant cruel sociopaths who believe themselves to be God's Spokesman.
Joan D'Arc, David Koresch, Jones of the Jones Massacre, Catholic Inquisition practicioners, Muslims and Crusaders, on and on.

Wish folks could recognize that Joe Brandon Jr., AND GLENN BECK are part of that same filth. The Pope ain't 'xctly lily white, neither.

BOTTOM LINE: Religion is Mankind's Bane!
[Most fundamentalist religious folks don't know the meaning of "Bane".] Sigh!

The only thing that is really scary about the comments ot this article here is that some of you people have or will be allowed to breed. I have never heard such silliness as some of the comments in this article. This Country is supposed to be about Freedom, the same arguments you hear about Islam is the same racist rants you heard about intergration. This Country is definitely headed backwards.

The only thing that is really scary about the comments ot this article here is that some of you people have or will be allowed to breed. I have never heard such silliness as some of the comments in this article. This Country is supposed to be about Freedom, the same arguments you hear about Islam is the same racist rants you heard about intergration. This Country is definitely headed backwards.

Posted by: phillipt

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

One big difference is we have the evidence of 57 OICs with their anti-non-muslim corpus of laws. The Muslims who find an insult or offense at every little western custom and who demand that we make accommodation to their superstition do not as much as bat their eyelids when we point the inequities in their native lands against the non-muslim. The ones who demand that we need to accommodate to their prayers at all times of the day do not care whether a non-muslim is allowed to carry her holy book into the OIC countries. Do you know of any law that has been passed in any non-muslim country that is prejudicial to muslims?

Thank God, Islam has David Waters to defend it, or where would it be.

That said, we're still waiting for a discussion of homophobia in (tax exempt) black churches, un PC, though the topic may be.

There are a handful of black clergy who are trying to do something about this (tax exempt) obscenity, and they could use a hand.

As I write, a minister in a church down the block from me, is, no doubt, planning his next assault. His verbal histrionics have contributed to more misery than I can calculate.

David?

All the western apologist and Islamists read the wire story below. Do you still want to claim dissent has a place in the Islamic world?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/12/AR2010111201113.html

A religion is EVERY BIT as liable to criticism as ANY OTHER philosophy and it there is NOTHING "bigoted" about criticizing a "faith", provided the criticism is rooted is facts and reason.

While I agree, I know of no one that claims that Islam should be exempt from criticism because it's a religion. The plaintiffs' critics are not making that claim. The issue here is that the "not a religion" claim is simply a rationalization of ethnic and cultural bigotry.

Its about time, these are mostly first generation Muslims, many of them are new immigrants. They are fully aware of the rights or the lack of right that they extended to minorities in their countries of origin. The islamic nations of Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia, Iraq... make sure people they deem minorities based upon religion have no rights, and are second class. I hope Muslims of Tennessee learn first hand what if feels like to be on the receiving end. They hopefully will understand how the minorities of Egypt feel when they are scorned for not being muslims. What goes around comes around. I hope every mosque permit in the US is securitized and scorned.
Muslims this is just the beginning, we hate your islam and your prophet and we are letting you know it one city/State at a time. You can build a mosque but you know very well people spit in that direction, then turn their heads away when they accidentally gaze at an ugly mosque in their neighborhood.

Do you still want to claim dissent has a place in the Islamic world?

From my reading, no one is condoning the flagrant abuses of human rights in the theocratic countries, or minimizing the danger that the fundamentalist extremists pose to America. However, we should be equally concerned about wrongly demonizing all of Islam or all Muslims. Much of the rhetoric about both sounds Red Scarish, as if someone did a search-and-replace to change "Communism" to "Islam."

When I heard Juan Williams openly endorse an irrational fear of people in "Muslim garb," I fear for Arab-Americans and for any Americans who even look Arab. (Juan, think for a minute - if there was a member of Al Qaeda on your plane getting ready to attack, do you think he would want to call attention to himself by dressing in anything other than Wester clothing?)

That said, we're still waiting for a discussion of homophobia in (tax exempt) black churches, un PC, though the topic may be.

I see nothing objectionable about that topic. I find that homophobia not just hateful but also sad. They often misinterpret gay rights activists as saying that gays have suffered from just as much persecution as blacks, and I can understand that reaction even when labeling it as misplaced. The real issue is that the principle of protecting the rights of minorities applies to all such minorities.

blasmaic,

"I believe that Evolutionism and Secular Humanism might also qualify as religions."

Does your belief that "Evolutionism" and "Secular Humanism" might also qualify as religions, also qualify as a religion?

Carstonio writes: "However, we should be equally concerned about wrongly demonizing all of Islam or all Muslims."

Muslims are people and we should make sure that they are discriminated against and they get as many rights as anyone else. They should also be expected to contribute and shoulder their responsibilities.
Islam is a belief system that incorporates religious belief and a legal system. It should be examined fairly and openly. There is no need to "demonize" it, which implies an unfair and harsh propaganda against it.
I look at Islam's implementation across the world. I look at how the non-muslims are treated in muslim countries in the present and in history, and that provides a measureable objective way to see the effects of Islam. It can be shown objectively and without any exaggeration that Islam oppresses and subjugates non-muslims that live under it. It is a fact that Islam hates the non-muslims and its implementations treats non-muslims as second class humans. Because of this extensive cultural supremacy it is fair to ask and investigate how much of this supremacist attitudes and assumptions infect the muslims in the west. There is now much evidence that at least in Europe where the percentage of muslims exceeds about 5%, a significant number of the muslims start exhibiting the same supremacist attitude towards the non-muslims around them that the muslims in Islamic world assume as given. This is not "demonizing" anyone, but merely stating facts on the ground.

I ofcourse meant that the Muslims are people and should NOT be discriminated against in the previous post.

Carstonio writes: "However, we should be equally concerned about wrongly demonizing all of Islam or all Muslims."

Of course no body here is saying that Muslims should be discriminated. In fact a generic Muslim enjoys more rights in the west than he/she may enjoy in any of his 57 OIC countries. Cases in point, Shias in Saudi Arabia, Sunnis in Iran & Iraq. Shias, Ismailis, Ahmedis, boharis in Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangla Desh. These are not even non-muslims. So please stop conflating criticism of Islam with discrimination of Muslims. The above article that I linked in my previous post, how many of the muslims moderate or otherwise would bring themselves to condemn. You have read the, the mother herself would rather have her child put away for life (poor 26 year old child) to keep from shaming her family. What kind of putrid dogma should you believe in to forsake ones own child. This is the kind of parents we run into when we talk about Davidians (David Koresh's followers), or the Jim Jones followers. If Islam makes its follwers to behave just like the Davidian or Jonesans aren't we obliged speak out against Islam and the followers. What moral imperative keeps you all apologists from calling a spade a spade? Shame on you for twisting the premise of my post.

Islam is a religion.

Wahhabism is a totalitarian ideological system.

Just make sure the mosque's funding isn't as secretive as Cordoba House's.

So please stop conflating criticism of Islam with discrimination of Muslims.

My post made no such equivalency. The point I was trying to make is criticism of Islam should be done fairly and responsibly without resorting to demagoguery. When one hears all of Islam and all Muslims as constituting a sinister force ready to overthrow all other religions and governments, one can easily imagine Americans being driven by fear to publicly harass anyone who looks "Muslim."
Yes, some countries with Muslim majorities persecute their religious minorities. I don't want the America I love to persecute its own religious minorities - it wasn't all that long ago when Catholics were suspected of disloyalty and Jews were suspected of being tools of Moscow.

When one hears all of Islam and all Muslims as constituting a sinister force ready to overthrow all other religions and governments,

Look at the evidence Carstonio, the fact that Islam that started out from two towns in Arabia to all over the world. It did not happen because of a miracle. It happened because Islam is a sinister force, not necessarily all the Muslims. Because for the most part most of the Muslims were initially the forced converts any way. As far as sinisterness of Islam is not matter speculation it is all written in its specification documents namely Koran, Hadith.

Yes, some countries with Muslim majorities persecute their religious minorities. I don't want the America I love to persecute its own religious minorities

Can you tell me one discriminatory law that has been passed in any non-muslim country in the recent past. When t so called moderate muslims do not rage in reaction to the Palestinian story then they are opening themselves to the charge that they subscribe to the supremaci ideology of Islam.

Carstonio writes: "Yes, some countries with Muslim majorities persecute their religious minorities."

Some? Please tell me those that do not so I can look further. So far I have not found an exception even to say that it is an exception showing that a general rule exists.

If you're going to say that Muslims can't build their mosque because YOU say that Islam isn't really a religion, then you need to stop Christians from building churches because CHRISTIANS say that Christianity isn't a religion. They say it's a RELATIONSHIP.

"You can't fix Stupid"

..."Sad to see Tennessee is as out of step as with religion as it is with politics! I have wrote for years in the East Tennessean here in Republican run East Tennessee trying to wake up a people who can't be woke up, and trying to educate a state that is ranked 48th in education in the nation, I guess the saying is true,

..."YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!

Islam is not a religion. It is a cult of death.

Seems to me these residents of Murfreesboro, Tenn qualify as being gravely demented and should be institutionalized. They clearly are incapable of logical thought, and they've proven themselves to be incapable of living peacefully with normal people.

Unfortunately I spent a year in Murfreesboro studying music at MTSU. Since I'm from MD it was culture shock to begin with, but let me tell you. Murfreesboro is full of willfully ignorant white folk. I would expect nothing less from them.

Islam abroad operates via theocracies--states, nations, or other associations which are both government/law and religious observance. That is its nature.
So instead of yucking it up about these "ignorant" people, you should do your homework. And you should also ask Germany, England, northern VA and Michigan what they have found going on in mosques.

Meanwhile in today's news:

Nearly 3 million Muslims performing the annual hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia climbed the rocky desert Mount Arafat on Monday, chanting that they have come to answer God's call:

“God is the Greatest”, “Death to Israel” and “Death to America” were among slogans chanted by the masses in unison as they gathered in the Desert of Arafat near Mecca, where more than 2 million Muslims have gathered.

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: (Chopped off) from the land of the believers.

Crowd: From the land of the believers.

Man: The Audience will now split into two groups: One group will settle the score with America, and the other will settle the score with Israel. This group now: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

Man: All together now: Death to America! Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

It's obvious from this story, and many of the posts following it, that while there's no shortage of William Jennings Bryans in this country, we could sure use a few more Clarence Darrows. This kind of foolishness is the oil in Osama Bin Laden's propoganda machine. Would anyone like another cup of Tea?

Johnnyboston,

If you're a comedian I think you should look for another job. There's no mention of Israel or America at hajj. Geez! Where do you rednecks get your new from?

stve1,

what legal process? You really think a court of law is so idiotic to deligitimize a world reilgion and a world civilzation with a brilliant history-with a stroke of a pen??? It's truly laughable.

It exceptionally naive as it is utterly ignorant and silly to contest the legitimacy of Islam in court!!!! And does harm only to the idiots going to court.Mush the same as the idiot down in Florida who wanted to burn the Quran-when he admitted that he never a read a verse from the Quran.

Islam gets its legitimacy striaght from the One and Only God-Allah-the God of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Jesus the son of Mary and Muhammad the seal of all prophets.

Johnnyboston,

If you're a comedian I think you should look for another job. There's no mention of Israel or America at hajj. Geez! Where do you rednecks get your new from?

Johnnyboston,

If you're a comedian I think you should look for another job. There's no mention of Israel or America at hajj. Geez! Where do you rednecks get your new from?

Posted by: yasseryousufi

======================

From 2009

Pilgrims at Mecca: There Is No God But Allah, and America Is The Enemy of Allah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pUx38sy3Kg&feature=player_embedded

How embarassing! Are these the same quacks who don't believe we've landed on the moon or that WWII happened??

Tennessee! How are the schools down there?

God I hate religion.

ucfengr_2000 wrote: Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from opposition to a Nativity seen in a public park during the Christmas holidays.
=====================================
Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque, built on legally acquired and appropriately zoned PRIVATE property, is in any way the same as opposition to an expression of religious belief on PUBLIC property.

People in court arguing about invisible spirits? Not surprising. Wherever metaphysics appears, reason goes out the window.

You folks do realize that some American Muslims came here because they objected to the oppressive theocracies in their native countries, do you not?

Time for a re-make of Deliverance. This time set in Tennessee. We can cast Glenn Beck as the in-bred banjo playing kid on the porch. Mitch McConnell can make Ned Beatty squeal like a pig.

Religions go off the rails when they become about territory rather than personal piety.

Apparently, Christians want to turn Tennessee into religious turf, just like Palestine, Kashmir and Chechnya.

johnnyboston,

Is the hate speech you relayed any more evil than Rush Limbaugh or John McCain singing "Bomb Bomb Iran" to a jaunty tune?

The most devoutly religious act I ever witnessed was when nineteen young believers gave their lives to God and eliminated almost three thousand heathens from the face of the earth on September 11 2001. Such love of God is wonderful to behold - gives me a lump in the throat and tears in my eyes.

These martyrs demanded no proof, nor even a teeny weeny little bit of evidence that their God exists. Deep in their "hearts" they KNEW He was real. They had Faith, and answered His call - and destroyed three thousand infidels, as well as themselves.

Such deep and meaningful faith can only come from those who love God, and will do anything He asks of them. And it certainly helps to be naïve, gullible, and superstitious to a fault, and to believe every-stupid-thing you've ever been told, no matter how nutty. But that's religion. It'll be the death of us all.

ucfengr_2000 said:

>>> Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from opposition to a Nativity seen in a public park during the Christmas holidays.

Really? You can't suss out any different at all?

How about the fact that the mosque is on private property, zoned for that purpose, and the Christians shrine is on public space?

Actually the genesis of the Scopes trial was the "Butler Law" forbidding any teaching about human origins that contradicted the account in the Christian Bible.* The ACLU advertised its willingness to support a suit, the Dayton city fathers gathered in Robinson's famous drug store and Scopes showed them the high school biology textbook sanctioned by the state -- which included Darwin's theory. And the rest is history. Or ought to be.

Since, according to Mencken, Bryan declared on the witness stand in 1925 that man was not a mammal, there's really no surprise over any other denizen of the Tennessee hills of Zion declaring in 2010 that Islam is not a religion.

* But would that the one where man was created after plants (Genesis 1) or before plants (Genesis 2)? I'm never sure . . .

johnnyboston,

Is the hate speech you relayed any more evil than Rush Limbaugh or John McCain singing "Bomb Bomb Iran" to a jaunty tune?

Posted by: Greg_Allen

==============

LOL. Rush Limbaugh and John McCain are not declaring their goal of the world becoming a Christian Caliphate.

Congratulations to the fearmongers. You've whipped some people into a frenzy and will now I'm sure profit from it. There's a sucker born every minute.

ucfengr_2000 said:

>>> Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from opposition to a Nativity seen in a public park during the Christmas holidays.

Really? You can't suss out any different at all?

How about the fact that the mosque is on private property, zoned for that purpose, and the Christians shrine is on public space?

Posted by: Greg_Allen

=============

They have every right to build their mosque.

And Tennessee has every right to shut it down the second they start inciting against non-Muslims.

>> to call "expert" witnesses who have claimed that Islam is really a political movement

The Muslims could call "expert" witnesses claiming the conservative Christianity is really political movement.

Can any conservative Christian honestly argue that James Dobson, Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell aren't primarily political operatives?

johnnyboston said

>> They have every right to build their mosque.

Clearly many people think they DO NOT have this right.

>> And Tennessee has every right to shut it down the second they start inciting against non-Muslims.

As long as Tennessee shuts down every church that "incites" against non-Christians.

Congratulations to the fearmongers. You've whipped some people into a frenzy and will now I'm sure profit from it. There's a sucker born every minute.

Posted by: kchses1

=================

Aren't you paying attention to the news around the world? No fear mongering is even remotely necessary.

johnnyboston said

>> They have every right to build their mosque.

Clearly many people think they DO NOT have this right.

>> And Tennessee has every right to shut it down the second they start inciting against non-Muslims.

As long as Tennessee shuts down every church that "incites" against non-Christians.

Posted by: Greg_Allen

=============

DEAL!

>> LOL. Rush Limbaugh and John McCain are not declaring their goal of the world becoming a Christian Caliphate.
>> Posted by: johnnyboston

So, now you're splitting hairs? Mass killing is mass killing, IMHO.

We Christians don't have a caliphate but we do have "The American Way" which is very similar.

I'm an Evangelical Christian and, make no mistake, the Iraq War was promoted as a holy war in our churches.

That was the whole purpose of the "Land Letter" It was an evangelical "Christian fatwa" for a holy war. (Google it, if you not an Evangelical.)

Islam is a very dangerous political movement with religious clothing to fool people into allowing this trojan horse into their nation which nations along the Mediterranean discovered too late. Islam is the world's most violent, intolerant religion.

>> DEAL!
>> Posted by: johnnyboston

You clearly aren't an evangelical Christian!

Evangelical churches constantly preach "crusades" and "spiritual warfare" and "Christ ruling all the nations."

It's pure hypocrisy to accuse Muslims of "inciting" without also calling-out the Christians, too.

Mascemn,

>> Islam is a very dangerous political movement with religious clothing

But the Christian "Religious Right" is not political? C'mon, man, show some intellectual honesty.

>> Islam is the world's most violent, intolerant religion.

I'm pretty sure Christian nations have killed a lot more people than Muslim nations. I'd have to Google-it but I don't think their body-count comes even close to matching ours.

Mascemn,

>> Islam is a very dangerous political movement with religious clothing

But the Christian "Religious Right" is not political? C'mon, man, show some intellectual honesty.

>> Islam is the world's most violent, intolerant religion.

I'm pretty sure Christian nations have killed a lot more people than Muslim nations. I'd have to Google-it but I don't think their body-count comes even close to matching ours.

I'm pretty sure Christian nations have killed a lot more people than Muslim nations. I'd have to Google-it but I don't think their body-count comes even close to matching ours.

Posted by: Greg_Allen

============

I'll take that challenge. Just remember, whatever list you present in response has to do with killing SOLELY in the name of Christianity - and in the 20th century. Going back hundreds of years is pointless.

Algeria: there have been about 100,000 victims which have murdered by Islamic Salvation Front. Most of them have been innocent civilians. In most cases it has been horrific massacres of whole villages, women, children and old people. A massacre in the name of Islam.

Sudan: 2.6 million to 3 million have been murdered and slaughtered by the Arab Muslim regime, and the great majority of victims, if not all, are black, of all religions, including Muslims.

Afghanistan: Each group carried out a doctrine of mass extermination of its opponents. The sum of the fatalities in civil war, up to the invasion of the coalition forces under American leadership in 2001, is about one million and they continue killing each other.

Somalia:this Muslim state in East Africa has been immersed in an unending civil war. The number of victims is estimated at about 550,000. It is Muslims killing mainly Muslims. Most of the victims died not in the battle fields, but as a result of deliberate starvation and slaughter of civilians, in bombardments aimed at the civilian population (massive bombardments of opponent districts, such as the bombardment of Somaliland, that caused the deaths of 50,000 ).and they continue killing each other.

Bangladesh: An inquiry committee appointed by the government of Bangladesh counted 1.247 million fatalities as a result of systematic murder of civilians by Pakistan’s army forces. There are also numerous reports of ‘Death squads’, in which “Muslim soldiers were sent to execute mass killings of Muslim farmers.

Indonesia: The biggest Muslim state in the world. The massacre was perpetrated by the army, led by Hag’i Mohammed Soharto, who seized power in the country for the next 32 years. An investigator of those years points out that the person who was in charge of suppressing the rebellion, General Srv Adei, admitted: “We killed 2 million not 1 million, and we did good work”. For this argument, we will stick to the lower, more accepted estimates.

Iran-Iraq war, in the conflict over the Shat El Arab River, the river that is created by the convergence of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. This was a conflict that led to nothing but large scale destruction and mass killing. Estimates are between 450,000 and 650,000 Iraqis, and between 450,000 and 970,000 Iranians. Jews, Israelis, and Zionists were not around, as far as is known.
In Iraq, they continue to kill each other.

Jordan: 1970 to 1971 the Black September riots took place In the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan. King Hussein was fed up of the Palestians

Hit the character limit.

If Christianity is a relligion, then Islam would seem to be a religion, also, since they are weirdly similar, and reflective of each other, in almost every way.

"Sorry, but I fail to see how opposition to a mosque in Tennessee is morally different from opposition to a Nativity seen in a public park during the Christmas holidays."

Um, well, the mosque would be built on private land, not in a public park. Duh.

If Christianity is a relligion, then Islam would seem to be a religion, also, since they are weirdly similar, and reflective of each other, in almost every way.

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen

========================

The Quran is an exercise in hate speech. It preaches hate towards unbelievers right from the beginning, and that hate takes up as much as 60% in total.

Don't believe me? Please educate yourself and simply read it on line.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

It wont take long. The first section is peaceful enough, only seven verses. You'll read it in ten seconds. The second section (Al-Baqara) is where the fun begins. You don't even have to read the whole section. Just the first few hundred words. Or more. It doesn't matter. You'll get the idea.

>> DanielintheLionsDen
>> I'll take that challenge. Just remember, whatever list you present in response has to do with killing SOLELY in the name of Christianity

That's where you are being dishonest.

Every American war is waged in the name of "God and country" but the "God" part gets denied by Christians when the war invariably turns ugly.

It is dishonest to subscribe TOTALLY religious motivations to Muslim-majority nations but then TOTALLY political motivations to Christian-majority nations.

If you're being honest, you'll recognize that motivations behind wars are invariably both religious and political.

So, which where more violent in the 20th Century? Muslim-majority countries or Christian-majority countries?

I'm not a war historian, but just WWI and WWII alone are going to be like 40 or 50 million people killed by Christians, right? And don't forget the 2 or 3 million deaths of the "godless communists" in Vietnam at the hands of Christians.

Your numbers of killings by Muslims don't even come remotely close to that. So count again -- but this time honestly.

"Islam is basically a political ideology hatched by an ambitious desert warlord who envied the wealth of his neighbors' much richer and cultured societies."

And the same can be said of Christianity and Judaism.

Christianity was started by he Medici Family, the richest family in Italian History, the first money-lenders, and the first Pope.

Christianity is about money and power, just like islam.

I am a Buddhist and find all religions offensive when it enslaves people, like the folks in America enslaved to ideals they lack understanding of, called equality, which does not exist in the Bible, because Men and Women are NOT equal under GOD's doctrine.

Perhaps Christians might try studying Christianity instead of Islam, something they lack any understamnding of. American sound ignorant trying to teach Islam to Muslims. Arrogance at it's finest and scariests. FEAR = GOP = FAILURE

patrick

Well, I gotta go but I'll leave with these words of Jesus regarding Christian vs. Muslim violence:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Matthew 7

I'm not a war historian, but just WWI and WWII alone are going to be like 40 or 50 million people killed by Christians, right? And don't forget the 2 or 3 million deaths of the "godless communists" in Vietnam at the hands of Christians.

Your numbers of killings by Muslims don't even come remotely close to that. So count again -- but this time honestly.

Posted by: Greg_Allen

================

Stalin was an Atheist and Hitler hated the Church and Christianity.

Also you honestly think we were in Vietnam to promote Christianity? How many Vietnamese did we end up converting?

"When one hears all of Islam and all Muslims as constituting a sinister force ready to overthrow all other religions and governments, one can easily imagine Americans being driven by fear to publicly harass anyone who looks "Muslim."

Exactly. Remember the Sikh shopowner who was attacked for looking "Muslim"?

Nationally, acts against Sikhs have been even more horrific. On September 15, 2001, in Mesa, Arizona, a Sikh gas station owner was shot and killed by a man yelling “I stand for the flag”. A man approached the gas station and fired shots from his truck into the store before moving on to fire shots at other Arabic gas station owners in the area. According to a story in the New York Times, in May of 2003, in the Phoenix, Arizona area, a truck driver was shot and seriously wounded in the abdomen and thigh because he was a Sikh who wore a turban. The driver, Avtar Singh, had parked his 18-wheeler in Phoenix and was waiting for his son to pick him up when at least two young white men pulled up and yelled, ''Go back to where you belong!'' and began firing shots.

There have been plenty of Muslim clerics who have said and written that the attacks on 9/11 were the works of terrorists and terrorism and NOT representative of their religion. Just because many people overlook them, doesn't mean they don't speak up. Or reach out.

Saying that Islam is monolithic is the same as saying that Christian denominations are all the same. There are different factions under the umbrella of Islam. There have been ugly clashes between them as well. Ditto for Christianity. Even as recently as the 1970's in Northern Ireland--and some of that animosity and bigotry linger.

This whole thing puts me in mind of an old Gary Larsson cartoon, where God is making the world and he's seen sprinkling the ingredient "Jerks" and the thought bubble is, "Just to make it interesting".

Well, I gotta go but I'll leave with these words of Jesus regarding Christian vs. Muslim violence...

Posted by: Greg_Allen
=================

Uhh...don't you mean non-Muslim vs. Muslim violence? Christianity is just one part of that, is it not?

All around the world Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists are struggling with Muslim violence almost everyday. Yet - Christians and Jews get along, Christians and Hindus get along, Jews and Hindus get along, Everyone, including Buddhists and Atheists all get along just fine.

So what's the problem with Islam?

PLEASE just read the Quran and find out.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

The idea that everyone gets along except Muslims is born of sheer ignorance. In Northern Ireland, Christians don't even get along with Christians. In Israel, Jews do not get along with Jews--try driving through some neighborhoods on Saturday if you want to know the meaning of stoning. Muslims don't get along with Muslims (Sunni v Shia). Mahatma Gandhi, a practicing Hindu, was assasinated by a Hindu, based on religious differences via non-Hindus. The problem with Islam is a problem with the observers not the observed--it tells you more about the person making the observation, their biases, prejudices, and agendas than it does about Islam.

First this nonsense in Tennessee, and I just finished reading about Oklahoma passing an "anti-Sharia" law - is there some little understood condition that makes our brethren in the south not especially blessed with intelligence?

This issue, like the Oklahoma "anti-Sharia" law, is a response to a non-existent problem, fueled by the four horsemen of fear, hysteria, ignorance and bigotry.

God bless America.

Of course Islam is a religion. Another straw man set up and knocked down. Congrats Mr. Waters, you must be so proud.

I really don't know whether this is a religious group or not. I don't really care about the outcome of this case. Build it or not.

I do want to poimt out that Mr. Waters' article fails to deal with the possibility that Islam might be a religion, but also might be a political/social movement.

Religion, politics and social movements are not always separate from one another. There are many instances of combined organizations/movements and philosophies throughout history. Should the judge in this case ignore this history?

Certainly, one can make a fairly good academic case that Islam incudes all three in many parts of the world. Many Islamic scholars agree with this analysis.

So, if this combined movement view is a legitimate way to look at Islam, why is Mr. Waters criticizing the judge in this case for allowing testimony that includes this view?

One can reasonably foresee a ruling that this particular group in Tennessee qualifies for religious classification under US law, without insisting that the only way to treat Islam is as a religion and the courts should only limit testimony that focuses on the religious nature of Islam.

Might it not be possible that in some instances one of the three natures predominates? Might it not also be possible to contemplate reasonable laws including the concept that the rights of the group be based on which of the three aspects predominates in this particular group?

Of course, not only is this possible, that is already US law. For example, you an't avoid taxes by saying your religion prohibits paying taxes. Time and again US courts have ruled people claiming that are predominantly motivated by economic gain and are not protected by the First Amemndment. Certainly, the courts have never ruled that its illegal to have a religious belief against paying taxes. You go to jail if you refuse to pay taxes.

We know that Islamic governments often provide economic support for building large Islamic complexes in the US. Would Mr. Waters argue that an Islamic goverment money source is just a religion? Yet, Mr. Waters writes an article insisting only the religious aspects of Islam be admitted as evidence in a legal proceeding.

Now, where have I heard the concept about limiting testimony in a court case to one agreed upon orthodoxy? Didn't that have something to do with the 1925 Scopes trial? Mr. Waters seems to have inherited his own narrowminded wind from the Scopes era.

Mr. Waters you really should read more about the matters you write about, then think about it so you can make a sensible argument when you write.

Repeat after me:
Read first.
Second Think.
Write third.

Greg Allen writes: "I'm not a war historian, but just WWI and WWII alone are going to be like 40 or 50 million people killed by Christians, right? And don't forget the 2 or 3 million deaths of the "godless communists" in Vietnam at the hands of Christians.

Your numbers of killings by Muslims don't even come remotely close to that. So count again -- but this time honestly. "

First make a distinction between killings done in the name of religion and those done for "other" reasons. The two world wars were not religious wars. There were quite different from the religious wars that Europe had faced earlier.
However, even if you count them as "christian wars", the killings done in the name of Islam (especially if you count it as a percent of the total population of the people affected at the time) far exceeds what you cite.
http://markhumphrys.com/islam.killings.html#historical
"Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great's army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school."

There are a lot of quotes here about the evil
in the Koran and the Bible. Much evil in both:
The Bible is a text written in barbarous [B.C.]
times, a thousand years before Mohammed.
And yet the Jews and the Christians do not
follow the barbarities in the Bible any more--
they have chosen to try to follow the Good in
the Bible instead. Christians who follow the
evil in the Bible are condemned by their fellow
Christians across the entire breadth & length
of the Christian World. Muslims who follow
the evil in the Koran, on the other hand, are
cheered in the Muslim Street across the entire
breadth & length of the Muslim World: All
protestations that they don't are made strictly
& only to non-Muslims because they would be
self-evident lies to their fellow Muslims.

Everywhere there are Muslims in this world
they still choose to follow the barbarities in
the Koran and to ignore whatever Good is
to be found in the Koran--everywhere ...
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran, Saudi
Arabia and the entire Middle East, Sudan
and the rest of North Africa, Indonesia and
the rest of Asia, North America and Europe.
And, in fact, Muslims use whatever Good is
in the Koran strictly and only as a weapon
against those who point out the self-evident
fact that everywhere Muslims have the power
to do so they follow only the evil in the Koran.

http://islamisbad.com

Islam is a cancer on humanity, exactly like
smoking: What, you say there are a billion
plus Muslims in the world? Well, at one point
everyone in the world smoked. But now we
all know better, so smoking is on a definite
decline--And, with the help of the knowledge
about just how bad Islam is, Islam too will
one day go on an irreversible definite decline
... exactly like every other bad idea that has
ever cursed mankind. This is why everywhere
in the Muslim World ignorance & The Big Lie
are relentlessly promoted... and knowledge
is ruthlessly suppressed.

S D Rodrian

.

We are allowing Islam to take hold in our country and while we having Buddhists, Aetheists and others, our country is a Christian nation, founded on Christian beliefs. We are naiive if we think Islam can co-exist with Christianity. Little by little, our country is being invaded by Muslims in communities across the country. This isn't fear-mongering; it's recognizing what's happening to our country. The people in Tennessee who are afraid of Sharia law coming to their community are right on the money. Our Constitution will be replaced by Islam if we are not astute and aware of what's going on in our country. Our Christian holidays (Christmas, Easter) are already under attack and we are allowing our traditions to be put on the back burner to accomodate those who arrived recently. Newcomers need to acknowledge

Cricket35,

It comes as no surprise to me that irrational superstitious idots like you actually believe that "our country is being invaded by Muslims". Martians maybe, but certainly not Muslims.

Please crawl back under the moonrock you came from.

Good grief.